February 4, 2025 • 35 mins
Master the art of conquering anxiety with faith as your anchor, where we unravel the complex dance between spiritual beliefs and emotional well-being. Imagine a world where anxiety is recognized as a universal human experience—one that can be managed effectively with the right understanding and tools. We explore the thin line between everyday anxiety and anxiety disorders, shedding light on how cultural and societal pressures, especially within the Christian community, can heighten these feelings. Through this discussion, we aim to equip you with a deeper understanding and validation of your emotions to foster healing and growth.
Join us on a journey through the transformative power of Christian-based coping skills that address the roots of anxiety. We delve into how attachment styles, shaped by early life experiences, impact our relationships and our connection with God. Discover how Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) can be a powerful ally in challenging false beliefs and reinforcing affirming truths, helping you build a healthier relationship with yourself and the divine. We also touch upon the nuanced role of medication and lifestyle changes, encouraging a holistic approach to managing anxiety.
Embrace the gradual process of overcoming anxiety, understanding that true change takes time and patience. We discuss the importance of implementing new disciplines and routines, and why it's crucial to allow your mind and body the time to adapt to these changes. Whether it's through small lifestyle adjustments or deeper therapeutic work, we provide practical advice and resources, like "The Anxiety Cure" by Dr. Archibald D. Hart, to guide you on your path. Remember, anxiety is not a sign of weak faith but a shared human experience, even amongst biblical figures. Join us for this insightful exploration and take the first step towards a more balanced life.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
All right, everyone, welcome back to the Psych and
Theology podcast.
We are excited to start, not anew series, but something that's
kind of related in this aspectof Christianity.
Three big topics anxiety,depression and forgiveness.
And today, in particular, we'regoing to be talking about how
Christians can manage and dealwith anxiety, and we'll look at
(00:24):
a couple of different thingsnormalizing it, defining it,
what are some ways to cope withit and, yeah, just what does it
look like in the life of aChristian?
So, yeah, we're excited to beseeing that, to be talking about
this, and we're also excited tobe seeing more traction on our
Instagram profile.
So, if you haven't followed uson Instagram, please do so Right
(00:46):
now, as you're listening to us.
Go to your Instagram and clickon Psych and Theo it's psych
underscore and underscore Theoand follow us there.
Again, you'll get a lot of ourclips and highlights from each
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Spotify and Apple Podcasts.
So, yeah, so today we're goingto be talking about anxiety.
(01:06):
Tim, what do you think aboutthat?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Very anxious about this episode, buddy.
Yeah, all right.
Yeah.
So Sam, kick us off, tell us,let's define our terms.
Apparently, from our feedback,people like it when we slow down
and we define our terms first.
So let's define what we mean.
What is anxiety, or I guess?
How is it defined?
(01:29):
And then, how does it show up?
How does it manifest?
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Yeah, one of the ways to kick this off is just
describing, as you mentioned, soit's kind of a natural
emotional response to perceivedthreats or stressors.
So just kind of breaking thatdefinition down just a little
bit.
One, just the natural emotionalresponse.
(01:51):
So that kind of brings thisnormalization to that.
We all experience anxiety,especially when we have threats
or stressors in our lives.
But the other key word therewas also perceived, right,
because there are things thatyou and I can look at and we may
not see it as a stressor.
You know, one of us may see itas a stressor and the other one
may not, right?
So that word perceived is veryimportant when we're talking
(02:14):
about anxiety, because we allhave different experiences,
different types of stressors inour lives, different stages of
life, which brings with itdifferent stressors.
So those two are probably thekey words there.
So, natural it happens, we allfeel anxiety in different ways.
And also perceived, right, thisidea of perceived threats or
(02:35):
stressors, because we all havedifferent experiences that allow
us to see some things as a bigdeal and some things not as a
big deal, right?
So this often is displayedthrough worry, apprehension,
fear, doubts, a lot of differentways, but it's very situational
, so I guess that's a good placeto start in defining what
actually anxiety is.
(02:57):
So, with that, one of the waysin which we can counter the
effects of anxiety is reallybringing this aspect of
normalizing it in our lives,because I think we almost have
gone to the other extreme, whereeverything is a big deal and
everything is anxiety inducingand everything is a concern.
A lot of future worries orconcerns that we have doesn't
(03:21):
allow us to be in the presentand with mindfulness, which is
one of the practices that we dofor managing anxiety, is about
being in the present andfocusing on what's within your
control right here, right now.
But yeah, three benefits tonormalizing anxiety I was
thinking about this is one ofthe things that it does is that
it helps, oh go ahead.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Do you want me to jump in?
Can you explain for theaudience what do you mean by
normalizing it?
Does that mean normalizing asin saying it's okay, normalizing
it as in pointing out thateveryone struggles with anxiety
to some extent?
So what do you mean bynormalizing?
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Yeah, I think both of those are exactly what we're
referring to here.
One it's okay, right, it's okaythat you experience anxiety.
That means that your nervoussystem is working right.
This idea of it's telling mesomething's off and I need to
address it right?
Well, what happens typicallywhen people feel anxious is that
they go into the cycle ofthere's something wrong and
(04:13):
therefore I need to go to theroot of the problem and explore
all these different avenues asto the many different things
that can cause you anxiety,which could be finances, family,
school if you're in schoolchurch, relationships, all these
different things.
So everything becomes a problem, right?
So the idea of normalizinganxiety is that it's okay that
(04:33):
you're feeling that and thenrealizing okay, what is causing
me this anxiety, right?
So, yeah, it's okay, we allexperience it, and even that
aspect of knowing that we allexperience it almost encourages
this level of openness.
Like, if I know that you haveexperienced anxiety, it allows
me to say, oh well, tim'sexperienced anxiety too.
(04:55):
What makes him anxious?
Oh, there's some overlap withsome of the things that make
both of us anxious Finances,preparing for the future, family
, all these different things.
So it makes you feel normal,right?
When people experience anxiety.
One of the common tendencies isthat they tend to think that
they're the only ones who areexperiencing it.
Right, and you also have tolook at different habits that
(05:18):
people have and we probablytouched on this before Tim where
people who are constantlycomparing themselves to others
can experience a lot of anxiety.
Right, because they feelthey're not up to par with
everyone else.
They feel like there's still somuch that they need to do,
which puts them in a state ofhurry, and they're constantly on
the go career, family, whateverthe case is, there is that
(05:49):
element of it.
So normalizing anxiety is thatit's okay and that we all
experience it Okay.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
So I think what most people will think, though, is
that, yeah, we all get anxious,but I think that some people
will say but what about myanxiety disorder?
Or maybe a question do I havean anxiety disorder?
So can you explain what thedifference between anxiety and
an anxiety disorder, like socialanxiety disorder or some of the
(06:17):
others that we could cover inanother episode, maybe, but
what's the difference betweenjust anxiety and an anxiety
disorder?
Speaker 1 (06:24):
over in another episode, maybe but what's the
difference between just anxietyand an anxiety disorder?
Yeah Well, it's funny that youmentioned that, because when
students come in, they do comein with this preconception of I
have this anxiety disorder.
Like I have it, I'm anxiousabout everything.
It's been more than six months.
I've had it for all my life,like that's a common theme.
So my question is always howdoes knowing that you have an
(06:45):
anxiety disorder help you?
And it just kind of makes themthink a little bit about okay
yeah well, how does it help me?
It just makes me aware of it,and one of the common
misconceptions that we have withpeople who come in for mental
health services is that theythink that awareness equals
healing and it doesn't.
Everyone's aware of wants tobecome aware of what's wrong
(07:06):
with them or how they can fix it, but what often is lacking is
the action to follow that right.
So with anxiety, it's likechallenging certain unrealistic
beliefs or false beliefs aboutthemselves, about other people.
They have all these beliefs, sothem defining themselves as
someone who has an anxietydisorder actually doesn't help
(07:27):
them.
So what I try to do is justwhat are the symptoms that are
presenting themselves?
And then we can work with that.
And we'll often find a lot ofdifferent things where they're
not sleeping, they're not eatingright, they're not in community
, they aren't challengingcertain negative beliefs right
now.
But to your question, you saywell, what's the difference
between just having anxiety andan anxiety disorder?
(07:50):
The first part is okay.
First is there.
Is there a benefit to youknowing whether it's one or the
other?
And some people might say, yes,okay.
So an anxiety disorder is theconstant state of worry, of fear
, of loneliness, isolation.
Almost some overlap withdepression, but that it's been
happening for six months or more.
(08:11):
Six months to a year istypically kind of the range that
we look at, and that's it, andit's creating significant
distress in your daily life, somuch that it's affecting your
daily activities, right?
So you know people who can't gointo social circles.
They experience high levels ofsocial anxiety, right.
They can't speak, they stumbleover their words, they feel
(08:32):
awkward, all these differentthings.
So those are just things thatthey become aware of.
So, again, what I try to do ishow has that been helping you to
know that you have socialanxiety disorder or just an
anxious anxiety disorder, right?
So, yeah, it's just workingwith the symptoms and
normalizing it, as in reducingthe stigma, validating feelings
(08:56):
and just encouraging openness sothat they realize that they're
not alone in experiencing that.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Okay, All right.
So what would be?
What are some ways thatcultural pressures contribute to
anxiety?
Let's start broadly just withpeople, and then we can kind of
come back narrowly to like aChristian community.
So what are some culturalpressures that contribute to
anxiety?
Speaker 1 (09:20):
I was talking to a professor about this not too
long ago and one of the themesthat came up was I kind of
alluded to it earlier thisconstant state of needing to be
where you have to be or you'resupposed to be.
Right, everyone always feelslike they're falling behind or
that they're where they're notsupposed to be in their stage of
life, because they're comparingthemselves to someone else
(09:42):
who's their age, someone elsewho's younger than them right,
they're more successful.
So that kind of puts the stateof hurry and pressure on them to
be a certain way or be in acertain stage of life when
they're just not there right now.
Right, worry is often caused byoh, what's the future going to
hold?
And it doesn't allow you tostay in the present.
So if you're always thinkingabout man, well, when I get to
(10:05):
this place in my career, thenI'll be happy, right, the
illusion of happiness if I hitthis stage of life.
Because they see other peoplethere, right, they're comparing
themselves to a life situationthat a friend has, right, so
there's that constant comparisontoo with those people.
So there's pressure there,pressure to get to start a
(10:26):
family, pressure to get married.
Right, we just finished theholidays, it was December, it
was Thanksgiving, and inNovember, and what's the common
question a lot of singles startsharing is that family starts
asking me oh, when are youstarting dating?
Or oh, where's the girl?
Or oh, where's the guy?
Right, this pressure of needingto be in a relationship or
starting a family is anotherpiece of this School.
(10:47):
If you're in school, and you'vebeen in school for a long time,
it's like, hey, so when are yougoing to finish that degree?
So, on top of the pressure thatyou already put on yourself to
do those things or to be insearch of you, also have other
members who are well-intended.
You know, and that's the otherpart of it too, is that family
doesn't mean to be to put morepressure on you, it's just, it's
almost like an interest.
(11:07):
But also we feel that tension of, hey, let me work at my own
pace, I'll get there when I getthere, type of thing right.
But yeah, people in general, Ithink, start to feel that and
it's just again added pressureon top of the pressure we
already put on ourselves.
Um, what about the Christiancommunity?
Oh, christian community.
(11:28):
So we see that and I want toget your thoughts on this as
well.
Is that for them it could bevery much so.
Family-oriented is usually abig one for them.
But I actually just finishedtalking to someone and for them,
the anxiety that they feel.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
By family-oriented you mean like there's a pressure
in the Christian community tobe married, have children or to
just be with family.
Have a strong family yeah to bemarried, have children?
Speaker 1 (11:53):
right, because most of our parents probably started
pretty young, so anyone above 25, 30, and you don't have a
family.
There's this perception of areyou doing something wrong or
something's wrong with you,right?
Kind of that feeling is whatpeople tend to share is that you
(12:15):
know they think something'swrong with me or I just want to
be single, and maybe we becomecontent in that too comfortable
sometimes.
But our parents are comparingit to the decisions that they
made in their lives.
So if they were married at 22,23, they started their families
pretty early.
So they're thinking tothemselves well, why haven't you
done that?
Most parents want that fortheir kids.
They want to follow in the samefootsteps, especially if they
have a good family.
But yeah, that pressure, howelse can you replicate and you
(12:40):
can touch on this as well Canyou model that relation between
Christ and the church?
Right, the marriage covenant?
You know why?
Wouldn't you want to be marriedalready, right?
That type of thing too?
Or maybe your expectations aretoo high.
Are you being too picky, right?
Then it becomes a shamingcomponent to that as well.
(13:01):
So there's all those differenttypes of pressures that seem
well-intended but they havedifferent effects, and again,
there are things that we canaccept.
There are some things that Idon't need to make a big deal
about.
When family makes comments likethat, in my head I'm thinking to
myself okay, they're makingcomments, I get it, anyone would
ask.
But when someone says, and thisis how they add to their
(13:22):
anxiety, oh my gosh, they keepputting pressure on me to get
married and I'm not ready, blah,blah, blah.
This and that Like that addsmore anxiety.
It adds more pressure becauseof the way that you're
perceiving that right.
So I think the way that we lookat things needs to be remove
that pressure of I'm not incontrol of what my family's
going to say or what people aregoing to say.
I'm only in control of my ownthoughts, words and actions.
(13:46):
So once you're able to bringthe locus of control back to you
as an individual, you canreduce a lot of anxiety.
Because, again, there's so manypeople, especially with the
advent of social media is thatwe operate based on the
assumptions or comments of otherpeople about our lives and
that's not a way to live yourlife.
(14:07):
You know, and you know actually, tim, in one of our
conversations you kind of hit onthat and it just hit me too.
I was like that's right, likewhy am I living for what people
have to say about my life whenthey're not involved in my life?
That doesn't make any sense,right?
But that's kind of how a lot ofChristians operate.
Say, oh, what is so-and-sogoing to think, what is
so-and-so going to think?
And when you have so manyvoices on one topic that you
(14:30):
haven't even processed yourselfagain, that anxiety starts to
build and increase and make youmore anxious.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
All right.
So what about this?
So you mentioned personalrelationships.
What about attachment stylesinfluencing anxiety?
Can you maybe give us a reallyquick crash course on the
attachment styles and how doesthat influence anxiety?
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Sure, yeah, yeah.
So attachment style obviously Italk about this on my other
page God Attachment, healing butalso, when we've talked about
this as well, is this aspect ofwell, where do you get your
attachment style from?
And it really has to do withhow your needs were met when you
were a child and how do theycontinue to be met or unmet as
(15:13):
you move into adolescence, youngadulthood and so on, as you
move into adolescence, youngadulthood and so on.
So for the person who has ananxious attachment style, for
them it's been usuallyinconsistency in getting your
needs met.
So it could be where a parentdid meet your needs sometimes
and didn't other times, becauselife changes, right?
(15:33):
Maybe they had to work, maybethere was a sickness in the
family.
So your needs now kind of getput to the side because there's
other things that are morepressing, right, maybe they had
to work, maybe there was asickness in the family.
So your needs now kind of getput to the side because there's
other things that are morepressing, right?
So in your mind, as a child, youdon't understand all those
shifts and changes.
So the body starts toexperience that and it just
realized that, hey, sometimes myneeds were met and sometimes
they're not being met and Idon't know why exactly.
(15:55):
And then there's this questionof is it because of me?
Did I do something wrong, likewhat happened here?
Right, it can't really be myparents' fault, because they're
good and they love me, so itcan't be their fault.
So I must have done somethingwrong.
So as you get older and you moveinto young adulthood, into
those types of relationshipswithin the church romantic
relationships you're questioningall of those different things
(16:18):
Like am I doing something wrong?
You over-evaluate every singlesituation and the only person at
fault in your mind is you right.
If something's wrong in yourwalk with the Lord, immediately
your thought is well, it can'tbe God's fault, so it has to be
my fault.
Am I doing something wrong?
So now it moves into this veryritualistic behaviors that are
(16:44):
going to draw you closer to God,or feel like they'll draw you
closer to God.
So you start to hyper-focus onBible reading, on prayer, on
seeking community, which are allgood things, right, but for the
anxiously attached person it'snever enough right.
They could be reading theirBible every day, praying every
day, seeking community every day, and still at the end of the
(17:05):
week they'll think to themselvesgosh.
It's just not enough, right?
So that's a common phrase too.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
When you say not enough, do you mean like they
feel distant from God?
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Yeah, they feel like why would God love me?
You know I'm here doing allthat I can, but it's so
selfishly motivated, like I'mdoing this out of selfish
reasons, like I just want theLord to love me, and I feel that
that's so selfish, right.
And if you look at that, if youtake a step back and look at
that, you'd think to yourselfwow, how could they think that
they're really wanting to honorthe Lord?
But in their mind it's nevergood enough.
(17:35):
They always feel like they'realways missing the mark.
And again, going back tochildhood, they just never knew
what the actual reason was forhow they were feeling right.
So they easily translate thatover to their relationship with
God.
It's just am I doing somethingright?
Should I be doing more?
That's a common question too.
Should I be doing more?
Should I be going to moreservices?
(17:57):
Doing some go to a mission andhelp out there, like it's never
enough, and they think that bydoing more that they'll earn
God's love and God's favor inthat.
So that's how you seeattachment kind of play out in
relationships and therelationship with God.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
All right, so that's really insightful.
So let's get into then, like,what are some research-based
coping skills Christians canutilize to manage anxiety.
So what does the research show?
And then maybe what does theSam Landa experience tell us as
a counselor?
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Yeah, yeah, the most research-based way to counter
anxiety is CBT, so cognitivebehavioral therapy.
Most Christian counselors kindof reference that because
Christians understand it right,the idea of challenging false
beliefs or things that areuntrue, things that are not in
the present.
Right, staying in the present.
Every day has its own worries,just worry about today, type of
(18:53):
thing.
So you get untrue beliefs oruntrue thoughts that people have
and you start to challenge themin session, right?
So an untrue belief could beI'm unworthy Unworthy of what
I'm unworthy of God's love.
I mean, look at my past, all mypast.
I've lived a life of sin.
I made a lot of bad decisions,I was disobedient to my parents.
You know why?
(19:20):
Would God?
God forgive me, right?
So the core message under allof that is I'm unworthy, okay.
So we start challenging.
Okay, are you really unworthy?
Like, what does god's word sayabout you as a person?
Oh well, I'm made in god'simage, but still, what does that
mean?
You know, what does that meanfor me?
Okay, so you're made in god'simage, so build on that.
What does it mean for you to bemade in god's image, that he
loves you and cares for you andthat you are chosen?
(19:41):
You're chosen right.
He chose you to be a son.
You're a believer now.
So slowly you start workingthrough challenging beliefs.
The unworthy one is a hard oneto work through because it's
also a physical experience.
Like that person can't believethose words unless they're
experiencing that along with thecounselor.
(20:01):
So strong therapeutic allianceis the experience of a person
with a counselor and thenchallenging those beliefs.
Because again, when you, whenyou grew up in a, in a setting
or home environment that'sunsettling or that's
inconsistent, you may not beable to make sense of it in your
mind, but your body is stilltaking note of how you're
(20:22):
feeling physically.
So people who are in thosetypes of environments just feel
anxious.
They don't know.
There's a lot of uncertainty.
Maybe they had an explosivefather, so sometimes he was
really nice and sometimes not.
Or a demanding mother.
Mom expected a lot but at thesame time she shamed them that
they should be doing more.
So even though in their mindsat that stage of life they
(20:45):
weren't able to make any senseof it, their body is still
experiencing the anxiety levelsand how their body felt right.
So if they can come into acounseling session and not feel
judged and not feel like they'rebeing demanded from or not feel
like they're being lectured at,then that helps their body kind
(21:05):
of.
Oh, this is what it feels likenot to be judged or not to be in
that constant state of anxietywhich allows them to now, ok, I
can grab this thought.
Yeah, it doesn't make any sense, but it's them challenging.
The thought is also aligningwith how their body feels, that
it feels safe, it feels secure,it feels able to challenge those
beliefs, right?
(21:25):
So CBT is a very commonapproach for a lot of Christian
clients and for a lot ofChristian counselors.
They also utilize mindfulnessand meditation.
So this idea of focusing on thepresent right, the past can't
change that Made bad decision.
Okay, we accept it, and we knowthat we can't change that.
(21:46):
Well, I'm experiencing theconsequences of those decisions
now.
Okay, so we can sit with thathere.
Tell me about that.
What are you currently goingthrough?
That's been a consequence fromthose decisions?
But again, the focus is on thepresent.
But some clients may jump to.
Well, you know what?
If this impacts me in thefuture?
Well, we don't know.
Right, the Lord is healing younow.
We don't know what it's goingto look like a couple months
(22:08):
from now, years from now, right.
So mindfulness meditation isabout really keeping them in the
present, and just some otherones that are very important
that we often overlook, andwe've talked about this.
The idea of physical activityright, some people just ignore
that.
(22:28):
Hey, you need sleep, you needto exercise and you need to eat.
Well, right.
If you're not doing thosethings, then you're going to
feel a certain level of anxiety.
For some and I don't personallyrecommend it just because I'm
biased towards drinking coffeeRight, but for some people,
drinking coffee makes them moreanxious.
You probably should cut back alittle bit on the coffee.
And again, that's been told tome before and I just ignore that
(22:50):
one, so it just is what it is,yeah.
But I do deep breathing andgenerally I haven't been able to
do a lot of journaling yeah butI do deep breathing and
(23:13):
generally I haven't been able toin the category of
internalization.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
In the video I guess a mental health professional was
explaining how she tellsclients don't say I have anxiety
, say I am anxious aboutsomething, because when you say
I have anxiety or my anxiety,you make that part of your
identity.
Can you go into that a littlebit and explain on a deeper
(23:40):
level what that is?
Because that when you sent methat video that's what sparked
me my response was well, isn'tanxiety just a response to like
a threat or a danger?
so like all of us.
All of us have some sort oflike natural anxiety response
system.
But let's get into a little bitof just the internalization or
identification of anxiety withme as a person.
(24:02):
So why is it better to say I amanxious about X Y, z as opposed
to my anxiety, or I haveanxiety?
Speaker 1 (24:16):
No, that's a great question, tim.
Um, this kind of goes back towhat I mentioned earlier about
is it helpful to know that youhave an anxious, an anxiety
disorder any of the differentones, right?
Social anxiety, generalizedanxiety, whatever the case is,
is it helpful?
And I think the reason why thatquestion is important, because
we make it part of our identity.
You know my anxiety that reallyisolates you from everyone else,
(24:41):
like it's only you who has thisvery particular type of anxiety
, right, my anxiety, you know.
So that's something that's notshared, it's just yours, it's
personal and it makes you almostfeel alone.
So no one else is experiencingmy level of anxiety, right, and
it could be very specific to asituation, but again, it's that
(25:03):
isolating component to it andthe difference with saying I'm
feeling anxious, that'ssomething that all of us can
relate to, right?
We've all felt anxious.
So it kind of creates this openspace of hey, I felt that way
before too, and I know otherpeople feel anxiety too.
So it opens up the space forthat.
(25:25):
It doesn't just make it a thingabout you, it makes it a common
human experience and that's notto say that to minimize the
situation that you're in that'scausing you a lot of anxiety.
It's not to say that.
But you feeling anxious orfeeling very anxious is
describing a very real thingthat's happening right now, in
(25:47):
the present.
When you say I am anxious, ormy anxiety right, or my anxiety
disorder, you're taking that onas an identity.
So that's past, present, future.
A lot of people who feel thatthat's their disorder, that they
can never change that.
But if I say I'm feelinganxiety, then the next day or
(26:08):
the next week I'd say you knowwhat?
I'm not feeling anxious anymorebecause you're practicing maybe
some of these techniques thatwe've been discussing.
So it kind of separates youfrom the identity of it and just
accepts it.
As this is a very real feeling,god created us to feel these
things.
Again, it's noticing aperceived threat or stressor in
(26:31):
your environment.
So that's normal, it'snecessary for us to feel anxiety
.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
All right.
So this question is a littlebit of a curveball.
What about the place ofmedications in managing anxiety,
even if temporarily?
Is there any place for even forthe Christian?
Is there a place formedications to help manage
anxiety?
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Yeah, yeah, medications to help manage
anxiety, yeah, yeah, andactually.
So I'm going to take a linefrom Tim here.
So I'm going to recommend thebook.
It's called the Anxiety Cure.
It's by Dr Archibald Hart andhe has a really good chapter in
here about that where he talksabout, you know, for anxiety.
He's not opposed to.
(27:17):
This was in 99, so it's a littlebit older, but it kind of shows
you the idea of how we seethings throughout time.
So at that time people stillhad this stigma of Christians
shouldn't be taking medication,and what he's saying is like I
agree, but I think it'simportant that you could take
medication early on to juststabilize things in order for
you to be able to counter thesenegative thoughts and feelings
(27:39):
that you're experiencing.
Again, sometimes the body justneeds to be in a relaxed state
to be able to do what it needsto do, such as challenging
certain beliefs and thoughtsabout yourself, being able to
relate or present.
If you're experiencing socialanxiety disorder, make friends.
Whatever the case is, sometimesthe body just needs to feel
calm and relaxed and some ofthese medications that they
(28:02):
recommend can be helpful forthat right.
But his follow-up is.
But you still need to do theother work of creating close
relationships, challenging thosebeliefs, trusting God
throughout the process.
So he does have a spiritual,integrative component in in the
book as well.
Um, so all those things areimportant.
(28:23):
And to go back to kind of how Iapproach this as well is that
whenever someone experiencesthat anxiety or depression,
we're looking at all the otherthings first right, okay.
So how's?
How's the physical piece?
Are you exercising, are youeating?
Are you eating well?
Are you sleeping well?
Right, those are big factorsthere.
Then the relationships, then theemotional piece, right.
(28:44):
Then the spiritual piece, andthen, if we check all of those
and we try different techniquesfor those and nothing's changing
a lot, then, okay, medication,let's see if medication helps
with that.
But we've already given theperson enough tools that once
they do take the medication,they're practicing all of that
and the medication piece right.
So again, most counselorsChristian counselors will tell
(29:07):
you one of our biggestfrustrations is that in the
mental health field, the numberone recommendation, even before
doing some of the work, is hey,take this medication so we can
get you in that space first, andthen we do the work.
Again, christian counselors arekind of split on this, but I
think more land where I am,where we want to do all the
(29:28):
other work first and then we'lllook at medication.
So we refer them to apsychiatrist or psychologist to
do that work.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
Okay, all right.
So any final thoughts or finalwords of advice for our brothers
and sisters who might beexperiencing high levels of
anxiety?
Speaker 1 (29:47):
Yeah, yeah, one is I know that having anxiety can
have a huge influence on faithand doubt, right, that because
you're experiencing anxiety,that for some reason you feel
that you may not be havingenough faith, right, and because
you don't have enough faith,then you start to doubt whether
(30:07):
God's real in your life or ifyou're really allowing him to
take control of what's going onin your life, right?
So there's this shaming piecethat comes in with that.
Whether it be because of yourchurch or maybe some comments
that other people have made,right, it can make you really
feel like a bad Christianbecause you're experiencing
anxiety.
And again, if I go back to myfirst point, is that if we
(30:29):
normalize that and we say youknow what, everyone experiences
anxiety I mean characters,people in the Bible experience
anxiety.
Right Now, it doesn't describethe whole scope of it, but they
experienced some situationswhere I think anyone would feel
anxious.
So, again, we go back tonormalizing.
Okay, everyone experiences thisand they may have some
(30:50):
challenges with their faith ordoubt, right?
Another piece is just this fearof the future, right, what's
going to happen tomorrow, nextweek, if I make this decision
now?
You know how's that going toimpact everything else, and
though it's good to think aboutthe future and consider,
obviously, the decision thatyou're making today, we can't
predict what's going to happenright.
(31:10):
Life changes, life is dynamicand we don't have control over
all of that.
The only thing we have controlover is trusting God in the
midst of all those changes thatmay happen.
But to kind of ask you inreturn, tim, what are some
things that you see forChristians who do struggle with
anxiety?
That, yeah, what would yourecommend?
(31:34):
You know being taking atheological standpoint of what
do you see with Christians thatthey struggle with when it comes
to anxiety and how can theydeal with it in that regard, oh,
that's a tough one, you know.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
My default, I think, response is the New Testament
talks a lot about thereorientation of the mind.
That's a very deliberate,continued, habitual focus on
things.
In the ethics world we call itvirtue ethics.
(32:09):
So you take little actionsevery day to develop habits and
then those habits form charactertraits in you which are called
virtues.
And in the New Testamentthere's a lot of places where
Paul, at the Apostle Paulspecifically, in a lot of his
letters he starts listing outthese virtue lists.
(32:31):
The fruit of the Spirit is oneof them.
Philippians chapter 4 is anotherone where he says whatsoever is
true, whatsoever is good,whatsoever is lovely, and he
lists out eight or nine thingsand then he says if there's any,
if there's good report, ifthere's any praise, think on
these things.
And then he follows it up bysaying what you have heard and
(32:53):
seen in me, do, and then the godof peace will be with you.
So in Philippians 4, if youread this whole passage, it's
Philippians chapter 4, like 4through 9.
He talks about don't be anxiousfor anything but through prayer
and supplication, give thanks.
And then it goes on with thisvirtual list.
(33:14):
So a lot of people think, ohwell, if I just you read that
passage and then you're like,okay, I'll just think on these
things and then I'm supposed tohave peace automatically.
And I don't think that's whatPaul is saying.
It's a process, it's a habit,it's something that we have to
cultivate over time, and I'm notsaying it's easy or even that
(33:34):
I've somehow done that.
I haven't, but it's um.
I think that's what the new,the picture that the new
testament shows us, is a um, acontinue.
It's a continual discipline ofthe focus of the mind prayer.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
That's good.
That's good, bro.
Yeah, thank you for sharingthat.
Yeah, because I mean we seeChristians who want to know that
and then they also want to knowthat clinical piece.
So hopefully they got a goodcombination of both.
But, yeah, a lot of emphasis onrenewing the mind and finding
peace.
And I like what you said aboutthe process, that when you
(34:15):
implement these things, thesedisciplines, that it's a process
, it's not just one day.
Some people have thatmiraculous thing and I know
you've heard that before whereit's like, yeah, once I did this
, everything changed after that.
But that's not everyone'sjourney.
Take time, that you've beenexperiencing anxiety for a very
(34:37):
long time and that's all yourbody's ever known.
So when you're trying to dosomething different, it needs
some time to adjust to thosedifferences.
So if you try any of thesethings, you know a couple of
days it's probably not going tohave the impact that you think
it's going to have.
Give it a couple of weeks, atleast two to three weeks, right.
And if you do that consistently, I think you'll start to see a
small shift in how you think andmaybe even in how you feel.
(35:00):
Okay, but, yeah, great topic.
Hopefully this was helpful.
No final comments.
Questions Tim.
So yeah, recommendation justagain.
If you do want to look up abook, the Anxiety Cure is a good
one by Dr Archibald D Hart.
All right, guys.
Well, we'll see.
All right, everyone, welcome back to the Psych and
Theology podcast.
We are excited to start, not anew series, but something that's
kind of related in this aspectof Christianity.
Three big topics anxiety,depression and forgiveness.
And today, in particular, we'regoing to be talking about how
Christians can manage and dealwith anxiety, and we'll look at
(00:24):
a couple of different thingsnormalizing it, defining it,
what are some ways to cope withit and, yeah, just what does it
look like in the life of aChristian?
So, yeah, we're excited to beseeing that, to be talking about
this, and we're also excited tobe seeing more traction on our
Instagram profile.
So, if you haven't followed uson Instagram, please do so Right
(00:46):
now, as you're listening to us.
Go to your Instagram and clickon Psych and Theo it's psych
underscore and underscore Theoand follow us there.
Again, you'll get a lot of ourclips and highlights from each
of our episodes that I thinkwill be helpful and follow us on
Spotify and Apple Podcasts.
So, yeah, so today we're goingto be talking about anxiety.
(01:06):
Tim, what do you think aboutthat?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Very anxious about this episode, buddy.
Yeah, all right.
Yeah.
So Sam, kick us off, tell us,let's define our terms.
Apparently, from our feedback,people like it when we slow down
and we define our terms first.
So let's define what we mean.
What is anxiety, or I guess?
How is it defined?
(01:29):
And then, how does it show up?
How does it manifest?
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Yeah, one of the ways to kick this off is just
describing, as you mentioned, soit's kind of a natural
emotional response to perceivedthreats or stressors.
So just kind of breaking thatdefinition down just a little
bit.
One, just the natural emotionalresponse.
(01:51):
So that kind of brings thisnormalization to that.
We all experience anxiety,especially when we have threats
or stressors in our lives.
But the other key word therewas also perceived, right,
because there are things thatyou and I can look at and we may
not see it as a stressor.
You know, one of us may see itas a stressor and the other one
may not, right?
So that word perceived is veryimportant when we're talking
(02:14):
about anxiety, because we allhave different experiences,
different types of stressors inour lives, different stages of
life, which brings with itdifferent stressors.
So those two are probably thekey words there.
So, natural it happens, we allfeel anxiety in different ways.
And also perceived, right, thisidea of perceived threats or
(02:35):
stressors, because we all havedifferent experiences that allow
us to see some things as a bigdeal and some things not as a
big deal, right?
So this often is displayedthrough worry, apprehension,
fear, doubts, a lot of differentways, but it's very situational
, so I guess that's a good placeto start in defining what
actually anxiety is.
(02:57):
So, with that, one of the waysin which we can counter the
effects of anxiety is reallybringing this aspect of
normalizing it in our lives,because I think we almost have
gone to the other extreme, whereeverything is a big deal and
everything is anxiety inducingand everything is a concern.
A lot of future worries orconcerns that we have doesn't
(03:21):
allow us to be in the presentand with mindfulness, which is
one of the practices that we dofor managing anxiety, is about
being in the present andfocusing on what's within your
control right here, right now.
But yeah, three benefits tonormalizing anxiety I was
thinking about this is one ofthe things that it does is that
it helps, oh go ahead.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Do you want me to jump in?
Can you explain for theaudience what do you mean by
normalizing it?
Does that mean normalizing asin saying it's okay, normalizing
it as in pointing out thateveryone struggles with anxiety
to some extent?
So what do you mean bynormalizing?
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Yeah, I think both of those are exactly what we're
referring to here.
One it's okay, right, it's okaythat you experience anxiety.
That means that your nervoussystem is working right.
This idea of it's telling mesomething's off and I need to
address it right?
Well, what happens typicallywhen people feel anxious is that
they go into the cycle ofthere's something wrong and
(04:13):
therefore I need to go to theroot of the problem and explore
all these different avenues asto the many different things
that can cause you anxiety,which could be finances, family,
school if you're in schoolchurch, relationships, all these
different things.
So everything becomes a problem, right?
So the idea of normalizinganxiety is that it's okay that
(04:33):
you're feeling that and thenrealizing okay, what is causing
me this anxiety, right?
So, yeah, it's okay, we allexperience it, and even that
aspect of knowing that we allexperience it almost encourages
this level of openness.
Like, if I know that you haveexperienced anxiety, it allows
me to say, oh well, tim'sexperienced anxiety too.
(04:55):
What makes him anxious?
Oh, there's some overlap withsome of the things that make
both of us anxious Finances,preparing for the future, family
, all these different things.
So it makes you feel normal,right?
When people experience anxiety.
One of the common tendencies isthat they tend to think that
they're the only ones who areexperiencing it.
Right, and you also have tolook at different habits that
(05:18):
people have and we probablytouched on this before Tim where
people who are constantlycomparing themselves to others
can experience a lot of anxiety.
Right, because they feelthey're not up to par with
everyone else.
They feel like there's still somuch that they need to do,
which puts them in a state ofhurry, and they're constantly on
the go career, family, whateverthe case is, there is that
(05:49):
element of it.
So normalizing anxiety is thatit's okay and that we all
experience it Okay.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
So I think what most people will think, though, is
that, yeah, we all get anxious,but I think that some people
will say but what about myanxiety disorder?
Or maybe a question do I havean anxiety disorder?
So can you explain what thedifference between anxiety and
an anxiety disorder, like socialanxiety disorder or some of the
(06:17):
others that we could cover inanother episode, maybe, but
what's the difference betweenjust anxiety and an anxiety
disorder?
Speaker 1 (06:24):
over in another episode, maybe but what's the
difference between just anxietyand an anxiety disorder?
Yeah Well, it's funny that youmentioned that, because when
students come in, they do comein with this preconception of I
have this anxiety disorder.
Like I have it, I'm anxiousabout everything.
It's been more than six months.
I've had it for all my life,like that's a common theme.
So my question is always howdoes knowing that you have an
(06:45):
anxiety disorder help you?
And it just kind of makes themthink a little bit about okay
yeah well, how does it help me?
It just makes me aware of it,and one of the common
misconceptions that we have withpeople who come in for mental
health services is that theythink that awareness equals
healing and it doesn't.
Everyone's aware of wants tobecome aware of what's wrong
(07:06):
with them or how they can fix it, but what often is lacking is
the action to follow that right.
So with anxiety, it's likechallenging certain unrealistic
beliefs or false beliefs aboutthemselves, about other people.
They have all these beliefs, sothem defining themselves as
someone who has an anxietydisorder actually doesn't help
(07:27):
them.
So what I try to do is justwhat are the symptoms that are
presenting themselves?
And then we can work with that.
And we'll often find a lot ofdifferent things where they're
not sleeping, they're not eatingright, they're not in community
, they aren't challengingcertain negative beliefs right
now.
But to your question, you saywell, what's the difference
between just having anxiety andan anxiety disorder?
(07:50):
The first part is okay.
First is there.
Is there a benefit to youknowing whether it's one or the
other?
And some people might say, yes,okay.
So an anxiety disorder is theconstant state of worry, of fear
, of loneliness, isolation.
Almost some overlap withdepression, but that it's been
happening for six months or more.
(08:11):
Six months to a year istypically kind of the range that
we look at, and that's it, andit's creating significant
distress in your daily life, somuch that it's affecting your
daily activities, right?
So you know people who can't gointo social circles.
They experience high levels ofsocial anxiety, right.
They can't speak, they stumbleover their words, they feel
(08:32):
awkward, all these differentthings.
So those are just things thatthey become aware of.
So, again, what I try to do ishow has that been helping you to
know that you have socialanxiety disorder or just an
anxious anxiety disorder, right?
So, yeah, it's just workingwith the symptoms and
normalizing it, as in reducingthe stigma, validating feelings
(08:56):
and just encouraging openness sothat they realize that they're
not alone in experiencing that.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
Okay, All right.
So what would be?
What are some ways thatcultural pressures contribute to
anxiety?
Let's start broadly just withpeople, and then we can kind of
come back narrowly to like aChristian community.
So what are some culturalpressures that contribute to
anxiety?
Speaker 1 (09:20):
I was talking to a professor about this not too
long ago and one of the themesthat came up was I kind of
alluded to it earlier thisconstant state of needing to be
where you have to be or you'resupposed to be.
Right, everyone always feelslike they're falling behind or
that they're where they're notsupposed to be in their stage of
life, because they're comparingthemselves to someone else
(09:42):
who's their age, someone elsewho's younger than them right,
they're more successful.
So that kind of puts the stateof hurry and pressure on them to
be a certain way or be in acertain stage of life when
they're just not there right now.
Right, worry is often caused byoh, what's the future going to
hold?
And it doesn't allow you tostay in the present.
So if you're always thinkingabout man, well, when I get to
(10:05):
this place in my career, thenI'll be happy, right, the
illusion of happiness if I hitthis stage of life.
Because they see other peoplethere, right, they're comparing
themselves to a life situationthat a friend has, right, so
there's that constant comparisontoo with those people.
So there's pressure there,pressure to get to start a
(10:26):
family, pressure to get married.
Right, we just finished theholidays, it was December, it
was Thanksgiving, and inNovember, and what's the common
question a lot of singles startsharing is that family starts
asking me oh, when are youstarting dating?
Or oh, where's the girl?
Or oh, where's the guy?
Right, this pressure of needingto be in a relationship or
starting a family is anotherpiece of this School.
(10:47):
If you're in school, and you'vebeen in school for a long time,
it's like, hey, so when are yougoing to finish that degree?
So, on top of the pressure thatyou already put on yourself to
do those things or to be insearch of you, also have other
members who are well-intended.
You know, and that's the otherpart of it too, is that family
doesn't mean to be to put morepressure on you, it's just, it's
almost like an interest.
(11:07):
But also we feel that tension of, hey, let me work at my own
pace, I'll get there when I getthere, type of thing right.
But yeah, people in general, Ithink, start to feel that and
it's just again added pressureon top of the pressure we
already put on ourselves.
Um, what about the Christiancommunity?
Oh, christian community.
(11:28):
So we see that and I want toget your thoughts on this as
well.
Is that for them it could bevery much so.
Family-oriented is usually abig one for them.
But I actually just finishedtalking to someone and for them,
the anxiety that they feel.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
By family-oriented you mean like there's a pressure
in the Christian community tobe married, have children or to
just be with family.
Have a strong family yeah to bemarried, have children?
Speaker 1 (11:53):
right, because most of our parents probably started
pretty young, so anyone above 25, 30, and you don't have a
family.
There's this perception of areyou doing something wrong or
something's wrong with you,right?
Kind of that feeling is whatpeople tend to share is that you
(12:15):
know they think something'swrong with me or I just want to
be single, and maybe we becomecontent in that too comfortable
sometimes.
But our parents are comparingit to the decisions that they
made in their lives.
So if they were married at 22,23, they started their families
pretty early.
So they're thinking tothemselves well, why haven't you
done that?
Most parents want that fortheir kids.
They want to follow in the samefootsteps, especially if they
have a good family.
But yeah, that pressure, howelse can you replicate and you
(12:40):
can touch on this as well Canyou model that relation between
Christ and the church?
Right, the marriage covenant?
You know why?
Wouldn't you want to be marriedalready, right?
That type of thing too?
Or maybe your expectations aretoo high.
Are you being too picky, right?
Then it becomes a shamingcomponent to that as well.
(13:01):
So there's all those differenttypes of pressures that seem
well-intended but they havedifferent effects, and again,
there are things that we canaccept.
There are some things that Idon't need to make a big deal
about.
When family makes comments likethat, in my head I'm thinking to
myself okay, they're makingcomments, I get it, anyone would
ask.
But when someone says, and thisis how they add to their
(13:22):
anxiety, oh my gosh, they keepputting pressure on me to get
married and I'm not ready, blah,blah, blah.
This and that Like that addsmore anxiety.
It adds more pressure becauseof the way that you're
perceiving that right.
So I think the way that we lookat things needs to be remove
that pressure of I'm not incontrol of what my family's
going to say or what people aregoing to say.
I'm only in control of my ownthoughts, words and actions.
(13:46):
So once you're able to bringthe locus of control back to you
as an individual, you canreduce a lot of anxiety.
Because, again, there's so manypeople, especially with the
advent of social media is thatwe operate based on the
assumptions or comments of otherpeople about our lives and
that's not a way to live yourlife.
(14:07):
You know, and you know actually, tim, in one of our
conversations you kind of hit onthat and it just hit me too.
I was like that's right, likewhy am I living for what people
have to say about my life whenthey're not involved in my life?
That doesn't make any sense,right?
But that's kind of how a lot ofChristians operate.
Say, oh, what is so-and-sogoing to think, what is
so-and-so going to think?
And when you have so manyvoices on one topic that you
(14:30):
haven't even processed yourselfagain, that anxiety starts to
build and increase and make youmore anxious.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
All right.
So what about this?
So you mentioned personalrelationships.
What about attachment stylesinfluencing anxiety?
Can you maybe give us a reallyquick crash course on the
attachment styles and how doesthat influence anxiety?
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Sure, yeah, yeah.
So attachment style obviously Italk about this on my other
page God Attachment, healing butalso, when we've talked about
this as well, is this aspect ofwell, where do you get your
attachment style from?
And it really has to do withhow your needs were met when you
were a child and how do theycontinue to be met or unmet as
(15:13):
you move into adolescence, youngadulthood and so on, as you
move into adolescence, youngadulthood and so on.
So for the person who has ananxious attachment style, for
them it's been usuallyinconsistency in getting your
needs met.
So it could be where a parentdid meet your needs sometimes
and didn't other times, becauselife changes, right?
(15:33):
Maybe they had to work, maybethere was a sickness in the
family.
So your needs now kind of getput to the side because there's
other things that are morepressing, right, maybe they had
to work, maybe there was asickness in the family.
So your needs now kind of getput to the side because there's
other things that are morepressing, right?
So in your mind, as a child, youdon't understand all those
shifts and changes.
So the body starts toexperience that and it just
realized that, hey, sometimes myneeds were met and sometimes
they're not being met and Idon't know why exactly.
(15:55):
And then there's this questionof is it because of me?
Did I do something wrong, likewhat happened here?
Right, it can't really be myparents' fault, because they're
good and they love me, so itcan't be their fault.
So I must have done somethingwrong.
So as you get older and you moveinto young adulthood, into
those types of relationshipswithin the church romantic
relationships you're questioningall of those different things
(16:18):
Like am I doing something wrong?
You over-evaluate every singlesituation and the only person at
fault in your mind is you right.
If something's wrong in yourwalk with the Lord, immediately
your thought is well, it can'tbe God's fault, so it has to be
my fault.
Am I doing something wrong?
So now it moves into this veryritualistic behaviors that are
(16:44):
going to draw you closer to God,or feel like they'll draw you
closer to God.
So you start to hyper-focus onBible reading, on prayer, on
seeking community, which are allgood things, right, but for the
anxiously attached person it'snever enough right.
They could be reading theirBible every day, praying every
day, seeking community every day, and still at the end of the
(17:05):
week they'll think to themselvesgosh.
It's just not enough, right?
So that's a common phrase too.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
When you say not enough, do you mean like they
feel distant from God?
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Yeah, they feel like why would God love me?
You know I'm here doing allthat I can, but it's so
selfishly motivated, like I'mdoing this out of selfish
reasons, like I just want theLord to love me, and I feel that
that's so selfish, right.
And if you look at that, if youtake a step back and look at
that, you'd think to yourselfwow, how could they think that
they're really wanting to honorthe Lord?
But in their mind it's nevergood enough.
(17:35):
They always feel like they'realways missing the mark.
And again, going back tochildhood, they just never knew
what the actual reason was forhow they were feeling right.
So they easily translate thatover to their relationship with
God.
It's just am I doing somethingright?
Should I be doing more?
That's a common question too.
Should I be doing more?
Should I be going to moreservices?
(17:57):
Doing some go to a mission andhelp out there, like it's never
enough, and they think that bydoing more that they'll earn
God's love and God's favor inthat.
So that's how you seeattachment kind of play out in
relationships and therelationship with God.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
All right, so that's really insightful.
So let's get into then, like,what are some research-based
coping skills Christians canutilize to manage anxiety.
So what does the research show?
And then maybe what does theSam Landa experience tell us as
a counselor?
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Yeah, yeah, the most research-based way to counter
anxiety is CBT, so cognitivebehavioral therapy.
Most Christian counselors kindof reference that because
Christians understand it right,the idea of challenging false
beliefs or things that areuntrue, things that are not in
the present.
Right, staying in the present.
Every day has its own worries,just worry about today, type of
(18:53):
thing.
So you get untrue beliefs oruntrue thoughts that people have
and you start to challenge themin session, right?
So an untrue belief could beI'm unworthy Unworthy of what
I'm unworthy of God's love.
I mean, look at my past, all mypast.
I've lived a life of sin.
I made a lot of bad decisions,I was disobedient to my parents.
You know why?
(19:20):
Would God?
God forgive me, right?
So the core message under allof that is I'm unworthy, okay.
So we start challenging.
Okay, are you really unworthy?
Like, what does god's word sayabout you as a person?
Oh well, I'm made in god'simage, but still, what does that
mean?
You know, what does that meanfor me?
Okay, so you're made in god'simage, so build on that.
What does it mean for you to bemade in god's image, that he
loves you and cares for you andthat you are chosen?
(19:41):
You're chosen right.
He chose you to be a son.
You're a believer now.
So slowly you start workingthrough challenging beliefs.
The unworthy one is a hard oneto work through because it's
also a physical experience.
Like that person can't believethose words unless they're
experiencing that along with thecounselor.
(20:01):
So strong therapeutic allianceis the experience of a person
with a counselor and thenchallenging those beliefs.
Because again, when you, whenyou grew up in a, in a setting
or home environment that'sunsettling or that's
inconsistent, you may not beable to make sense of it in your
mind, but your body is stilltaking note of how you're
(20:22):
feeling physically.
So people who are in thosetypes of environments just feel
anxious.
They don't know.
There's a lot of uncertainty.
Maybe they had an explosivefather, so sometimes he was
really nice and sometimes not.
Or a demanding mother.
Mom expected a lot but at thesame time she shamed them that
they should be doing more.
So even though in their mindsat that stage of life they
(20:45):
weren't able to make any senseof it, their body is still
experiencing the anxiety levelsand how their body felt right.
So if they can come into acounseling session and not feel
judged and not feel like they'rebeing demanded from or not feel
like they're being lectured at,then that helps their body kind
(21:05):
of.
Oh, this is what it feels likenot to be judged or not to be in
that constant state of anxietywhich allows them to now, ok, I
can grab this thought.
Yeah, it doesn't make any sense, but it's them challenging.
The thought is also aligningwith how their body feels, that
it feels safe, it feels secure,it feels able to challenge those
beliefs, right?
(21:25):
So CBT is a very commonapproach for a lot of Christian
clients and for a lot ofChristian counselors.
They also utilize mindfulnessand meditation.
So this idea of focusing on thepresent right, the past can't
change that Made bad decision.
Okay, we accept it, and we knowthat we can't change that.
(21:46):
Well, I'm experiencing theconsequences of those decisions
now.
Okay, so we can sit with thathere.
Tell me about that.
What are you currently goingthrough?
That's been a consequence fromthose decisions?
But again, the focus is on thepresent.
But some clients may jump to.
Well, you know what?
If this impacts me in thefuture?
Well, we don't know.
Right, the Lord is healing younow.
We don't know what it's goingto look like a couple months
(22:08):
from now, years from now, right.
So mindfulness meditation isabout really keeping them in the
present, and just some otherones that are very important
that we often overlook, andwe've talked about this.
The idea of physical activityright, some people just ignore
that.
(22:28):
Hey, you need sleep, you needto exercise and you need to eat.
Well, right.
If you're not doing thosethings, then you're going to
feel a certain level of anxiety.
For some and I don't personallyrecommend it just because I'm
biased towards drinking coffeeRight, but for some people,
drinking coffee makes them moreanxious.
You probably should cut back alittle bit on the coffee.
And again, that's been told tome before and I just ignore that
(22:50):
one, so it just is what it is,yeah.
But I do deep breathing andgenerally I haven't been able to
do a lot of journaling yeah butI do deep breathing and
(23:13):
generally I haven't been able toin the category of
internalization.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
In the video I guess a mental health professional was
explaining how she tellsclients don't say I have anxiety
, say I am anxious aboutsomething, because when you say
I have anxiety or my anxiety,you make that part of your
identity.
Can you go into that a littlebit and explain on a deeper
(23:40):
level what that is?
Because that when you sent methat video that's what sparked
me my response was well, isn'tanxiety just a response to like
a threat or a danger?
so like all of us.
All of us have some sort oflike natural anxiety response
system.
But let's get into a little bitof just the internalization or
identification of anxiety withme as a person.
(24:02):
So why is it better to say I amanxious about X Y, z as opposed
to my anxiety, or I haveanxiety?
Speaker 1 (24:16):
No, that's a great question, tim.
Um, this kind of goes back towhat I mentioned earlier about
is it helpful to know that youhave an anxious, an anxiety
disorder any of the differentones, right?
Social anxiety, generalizedanxiety, whatever the case is,
is it helpful?
And I think the reason why thatquestion is important, because
we make it part of our identity.
You know my anxiety that reallyisolates you from everyone else,
(24:41):
like it's only you who has thisvery particular type of anxiety
, right, my anxiety, you know.
So that's something that's notshared, it's just yours, it's
personal and it makes you almostfeel alone.
So no one else is experiencingmy level of anxiety, right, and
it could be very specific to asituation, but again, it's that
(25:03):
isolating component to it andthe difference with saying I'm
feeling anxious, that'ssomething that all of us can
relate to, right?
We've all felt anxious.
So it kind of creates this openspace of hey, I felt that way
before too, and I know otherpeople feel anxiety too.
So it opens up the space forthat.
(25:25):
It doesn't just make it a thingabout you, it makes it a common
human experience and that's notto say that to minimize the
situation that you're in that'scausing you a lot of anxiety.
It's not to say that.
But you feeling anxious orfeeling very anxious is
describing a very real thingthat's happening right now, in
(25:47):
the present.
When you say I am anxious, ormy anxiety right, or my anxiety
disorder, you're taking that onas an identity.
So that's past, present, future.
A lot of people who feel thatthat's their disorder, that they
can never change that.
But if I say I'm feelinganxiety, then the next day or
(26:08):
the next week I'd say you knowwhat?
I'm not feeling anxious anymorebecause you're practicing maybe
some of these techniques thatwe've been discussing.
So it kind of separates youfrom the identity of it and just
accepts it.
As this is a very real feeling,god created us to feel these
things.
Again, it's noticing aperceived threat or stressor in
(26:31):
your environment.
So that's normal, it'snecessary for us to feel anxiety
.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
All right.
So this question is a littlebit of a curveball.
What about the place ofmedications in managing anxiety,
even if temporarily?
Is there any place for even forthe Christian?
Is there a place formedications to help manage
anxiety?
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Yeah, yeah, medications to help manage
anxiety, yeah, yeah, andactually.
So I'm going to take a linefrom Tim here.
So I'm going to recommend thebook.
It's called the Anxiety Cure.
It's by Dr Archibald Hart andhe has a really good chapter in
here about that where he talksabout, you know, for anxiety.
He's not opposed to.
(27:17):
This was in 99, so it's a littlebit older, but it kind of shows
you the idea of how we seethings throughout time.
So at that time people stillhad this stigma of Christians
shouldn't be taking medication,and what he's saying is like I
agree, but I think it'simportant that you could take
medication early on to juststabilize things in order for
you to be able to counter thesenegative thoughts and feelings
(27:39):
that you're experiencing.
Again, sometimes the body justneeds to be in a relaxed state
to be able to do what it needsto do, such as challenging
certain beliefs and thoughtsabout yourself, being able to
relate or present.
If you're experiencing socialanxiety disorder, make friends.
Whatever the case is, sometimesthe body just needs to feel
calm and relaxed and some ofthese medications that they
(28:02):
recommend can be helpful forthat right.
But his follow-up is.
But you still need to do theother work of creating close
relationships, challenging thosebeliefs, trusting God
throughout the process.
So he does have a spiritual,integrative component in in the
book as well.
Um, so all those things areimportant.
(28:23):
And to go back to kind of how Iapproach this as well is that
whenever someone experiencesthat anxiety or depression,
we're looking at all the otherthings first right, okay.
So how's?
How's the physical piece?
Are you exercising, are youeating?
Are you eating well?
Are you sleeping well?
Right, those are big factorsthere.
Then the relationships, then theemotional piece, right.
(28:44):
Then the spiritual piece, andthen, if we check all of those
and we try different techniquesfor those and nothing's changing
a lot, then, okay, medication,let's see if medication helps
with that.
But we've already given theperson enough tools that once
they do take the medication,they're practicing all of that
and the medication piece right.
So again, most counselorsChristian counselors will tell
(29:07):
you one of our biggestfrustrations is that in the
mental health field, the numberone recommendation, even before
doing some of the work, is hey,take this medication so we can
get you in that space first, andthen we do the work.
Again, christian counselors arekind of split on this, but I
think more land where I am,where we want to do all the
(29:28):
other work first and then we'lllook at medication.
So we refer them to apsychiatrist or psychologist to
do that work.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
Okay, all right.
So any final thoughts or finalwords of advice for our brothers
and sisters who might beexperiencing high levels of
anxiety?
Speaker 1 (29:47):
Yeah, yeah, one is I know that having anxiety can
have a huge influence on faithand doubt, right, that because
you're experiencing anxiety,that for some reason you feel
that you may not be havingenough faith, right, and because
you don't have enough faith,then you start to doubt whether
(30:07):
God's real in your life or ifyou're really allowing him to
take control of what's going onin your life, right?
So there's this shaming piecethat comes in with that.
Whether it be because of yourchurch or maybe some comments
that other people have made,right, it can make you really
feel like a bad Christianbecause you're experiencing
anxiety.
And again, if I go back to myfirst point, is that if we
(30:29):
normalize that and we say youknow what, everyone experiences
anxiety I mean characters,people in the Bible experience
anxiety.
Right Now, it doesn't describethe whole scope of it, but they
experienced some situationswhere I think anyone would feel
anxious.
So, again, we go back tonormalizing.
Okay, everyone experiences thisand they may have some
(30:50):
challenges with their faith ordoubt, right?
Another piece is just this fearof the future, right, what's
going to happen tomorrow, nextweek, if I make this decision
now?
You know how's that going toimpact everything else, and
though it's good to think aboutthe future and consider,
obviously, the decision thatyou're making today, we can't
predict what's going to happenright.
(31:10):
Life changes, life is dynamicand we don't have control over
all of that.
The only thing we have controlover is trusting God in the
midst of all those changes thatmay happen.
But to kind of ask you inreturn, tim, what are some
things that you see forChristians who do struggle with
anxiety?
That, yeah, what would yourecommend?
(31:34):
You know being taking atheological standpoint of what
do you see with Christians thatthey struggle with when it comes
to anxiety and how can theydeal with it in that regard, oh,
that's a tough one, you know.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
My default, I think, response is the New Testament
talks a lot about thereorientation of the mind.
That's a very deliberate,continued, habitual focus on
things.
In the ethics world we call itvirtue ethics.
(32:09):
So you take little actionsevery day to develop habits and
then those habits form charactertraits in you which are called
virtues.
And in the New Testamentthere's a lot of places where
Paul, at the Apostle Paulspecifically, in a lot of his
letters he starts listing outthese virtue lists.
(32:31):
The fruit of the Spirit is oneof them.
Philippians chapter 4 is anotherone where he says whatsoever is
true, whatsoever is good,whatsoever is lovely, and he
lists out eight or nine thingsand then he says if there's any,
if there's good report, ifthere's any praise, think on
these things.
And then he follows it up bysaying what you have heard and
(32:53):
seen in me, do, and then the godof peace will be with you.
So in Philippians 4, if youread this whole passage, it's
Philippians chapter 4, like 4through 9.
He talks about don't be anxiousfor anything but through prayer
and supplication, give thanks.
And then it goes on with thisvirtual list.
(33:14):
So a lot of people think, ohwell, if I just you read that
passage and then you're like,okay, I'll just think on these
things and then I'm supposed tohave peace automatically.
And I don't think that's whatPaul is saying.
It's a process, it's a habit,it's something that we have to
cultivate over time, and I'm notsaying it's easy or even that
(33:34):
I've somehow done that.
I haven't, but it's um.
I think that's what the new,the picture that the new
testament shows us, is a um, acontinue.
It's a continual discipline ofthe focus of the mind prayer.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
That's good.
That's good, bro.
Yeah, thank you for sharingthat.
Yeah, because I mean we seeChristians who want to know that
and then they also want to knowthat clinical piece.
So hopefully they got a goodcombination of both.
But, yeah, a lot of emphasis onrenewing the mind and finding
peace.
And I like what you said aboutthe process, that when you
(34:15):
implement these things, thesedisciplines, that it's a process
, it's not just one day.
Some people have thatmiraculous thing and I know
you've heard that before whereit's like, yeah, once I did this
, everything changed after that.
But that's not everyone'sjourney.
Take time, that you've beenexperiencing anxiety for a very
(34:37):
long time and that's all yourbody's ever known.
So when you're trying to dosomething different, it needs
some time to adjust to thosedifferences.
So if you try any of thesethings, you know a couple of
days it's probably not going tohave the impact that you think
it's going to have.
Give it a couple of weeks, atleast two to three weeks, right.
And if you do that consistently, I think you'll start to see a
small shift in how you think andmaybe even in how you feel.
(35:00):
Okay, but, yeah, great topic.
Hopefully this was helpful.
No final comments.
Questions Tim.
So yeah, recommendation justagain.
If you do want to look up abook, the Anxiety Cure is a good
one by Dr Archibald D Hart.
All right, guys.
Well, we'll see.
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