February 11, 2025 • 43 mins
Discover how faith and mental health intersect in our latest episode, where we tackle the challenging issue of depression within Christian communities. We'll explore the duality of depression, inspired by the life of Robin Williams, and question whether mental health struggles reflect weak faith. By delving into biblical figures' own battles with despair, we promise to challenge misconceptions and reduce the stigma surrounding depression among believers.
We'll also navigate the evolving relationship between churches and mental health practices, highlighting how many congregations are increasingly advocating for a blend of professional counseling and spiritual guidance. Our discussion addresses the isolation faced by pastors and the need for balanced support systems within church settings. Through real-life stories, we emphasize the importance of creating environments where clergy and congregants can thrive without judgment or fear.
To round off our conversation, we provide practical tools for coping with depression while fostering spiritual growth. From practicing gratitude to setting realistic goals, we share strategies to nurture a positive mindset. We also recommend insightful reads like "Learn Hopefulness" by Dr. Dan Tomasulo and "Feeling Good" by David Burns to aid listeners in their mental health journey. Join us to find hope and redemption through faith and to support one another along the way.
FOLLOW US ON INSTAGRAM:
@psych_and_theo
Psych and Theo Link
FOLLOW US ON FACEBOOK:
Psych and Theo Link
Please leave a review, send comments and questions, and share the podcast with everyone you know. We love having these conversations with you all and are thankful for your support!
I look forward to walking alongside you as you draw closer to Christ!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
All right, everyone, welcome to the Psych and Theo
podcast.
Sam and Tim here on a somewhatof a series on anxiety,
depression and forgiveness, andtoday we're doing a topic on
depression and what that lookslike in a Christian context and
how believers can learn tomanage it and do so still in a
(00:23):
biblical way and also understandjust the clinical component to
it.
So, yeah, we're going to talkabout that today.
As always, follow us onInstagram, psych underscore and
underscore Theo, and you canalso email us any questions, any
topics that you would like forus to cover at psychandtheo, at
gmailcom, and, again, you canfind us on Spotify and Apple
(00:46):
Podcasts.
We're really excited to beseeing the level of involvement
and engagement you guys havewith these topics.
And, yeah, we have a bunch moretopics to look forward to, and
Tim here is going to start usoff with a couple of questions
and, as always, as I've learnedfrom him, we need to find our
terms Right, tim.
So we're going to find whatdepression is here.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Yeah, so let's get into what is depression and how
does it manifest in individuals.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Yeah, so depression is a common feeling or
persistent feeling of sadness,hopelessness, lack of interest
and even withdrawal from socialcircles.
Lack of interest and evenwithdrawal from social circles
so that's typically kind of whatyou see.
People describe it, as you know, this constant feeling of I'm
alone, no one wants me veryisolated they don't seek to be
(01:37):
in community with other peoplejust a lack of interest in
general with things, activitiesand people that they're usually
would be comfortable with.
And again, when it becomes aclinical component at least when
we talk about this topic, it'show much does it actually impact
or limit the person's dailyactivities, right?
(01:57):
So if someone is feeling reallydepressed, they're probably not
going to be very productive atwork, they're probably going to
be very less engaging inrelationships, not as
conversational.
They're not going to seek outany social settings, anything
like that.
So those are the things thatyou'll probably see with someone
who's struggling withdepression.
But at the same time and we'veseen this with a lot of movie
(02:19):
stars, actors, artists and so onis that they may seem fine on
the outside.
Right, some people often thathave depression.
The way to compensate for thatis being overly happy and overly
joyful, and usually it comes inthe form of making other people
happy.
So they're veryself-sacrificial in being there
(02:40):
for other people because theyknow what it feels like to be
either ignored or unwanted.
So a common theme for those whoare struggling with depression
is that they are constantly forother people because they know
what it feels like to be eitherignored or unwanted.
So a common theme for those whoare struggling with depression
is that they are constantlydoing for others, and it doesn't
always manifest itself in thesame way, but that is one common
characteristic that we startedto see a lot with these people
who are very successful or whowere struggling with depression
(03:01):
and you wouldn't have knownright Until you start digging a
little bit deeper into theirstory.
You know, I think of RobinWilliams, classic example of
that.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
So okay, so those are some characteristics of
depression.
Tell me if this is wrong.
I've heard depression describedas the inability to perceive a
positive future.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Yeah, yeah, I mean that's a really good description
of that as well is that theycan't see any light at the end
of the tunnel.
Hopelessness, basically, isanother characteristic.
They don't see any hope for thefuture.
They haven't had anyexperiences presently that are
demonstrating that there couldbe a hope, and they have not
experienced that in the pasteither.
(03:41):
Or it's so far away, so far, orso early on in their life that
they don't even they forgot whatit looks like.
I'm going to recommend the booka little bit later that talks
about that, but yeah, in general, I think that's a good
description of that.
There's no perceived hope inthe future.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Okay, so let's talk about normalization, and
normalization doesn't mean we'recondoning it or calling it a
good thing, but what we mean isby normalized we mean recognize
its prevalence and commonalityamong people.
So what would be the benefitsof doing that with Christians
and what would be the downsidesof normalizing depression?
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Yeah, you know, and this goes the same for anxiety
as it does with depression,which is this aspect of reducing
the stigma around it, because,again, christians shouldn't feel
sad, they shouldn't feeldepressed, they shouldn't be
isolating themselves, theyshould be seeking community,
right, all of those things thatyou're supposed to do as a
Christian for the person who'sexperiencing depression.
(04:41):
They're not doing that.
So there's this added level ofshame and I know what I'm
supposed to be doing as aChristian, but I'm just not
motivated to do those things.
And I'm going to talk aboutmotivation a little bit here.
But there is this aspect ofbecause I'm depressed and that
means that maybe my faith isweak, that I'm not doing
something right, I'm doingsomething wrong.
(05:01):
But again, if we look atscripture, we could look at the
Psalms, we could look atdifferent people in the Bible
that experience levels ofdepression, right, we just want
to describe it in that way Likewith time, the definition for a
lot of these experiences changes, you know.
So you have major depressivedisorder, you have other types
(05:23):
of disorders.
That kind of just limits theamount of time that you
experience sadness.
So grief can often look likedepression, right, if you just
lost someone you know, grievingthem could look like depression
because you're isolatingyourself, you're not wanting any
social interactions, you're notfeeling motivated to do
anything.
So the benefits are younormalize the idea that, hey,
(05:44):
we've all experienced depression.
This is not saying yourdepression is less or more, it's
just we've all been there.
So understand, there'scommonality there.
Secondly is that it can alsohelp with not making it or not
associating it to a lack offaith.
Just because you experienceddepression, it could be
justifiable based on yoursituation, right.
(06:04):
If you lose someone and youstay in that state for such a
long time, you grieve and thenthat could turn into depression.
Like we people, I think,understand that like man, I'd be
depressed too, right?
So there's something therewhere, as a counselor, when I
have someone who is experiencingdepression, if I can share with
them like I would feel that waytoo, like there's nothing wrong
with how you're feeling it.
(06:24):
If I can share with them like Iwould feel that way too, like
there's nothing wrong with howyou're feeling, it's a feeling
right.
So there is that aspect.
And then, lastly, I think abenefit of it is that it could
increase the willingness ofothers to help you, meaning that
those who are experiencingdepression.
They often don't share about it.
You can see it, you canprobably.
They show some signs, but whenyou ask them about it,
everything's fine.
You know it's not really a bigdeal until it is.
(06:46):
So.
Depression is dangerous becauseit could lead to thoughts of
suicide, it could lead tofurther isolation and so on.
But when you're sharing aboutthat depression, normalizing it,
could mean that you alsonormalize people wanting to help
and wanting to be there for you.
Depressed people usually sufferalone, so that's why it's so
important to have that strongsocial circle right.
(07:08):
So without the appropriatecontext, the downside could be
that it's just a complacency inaddressing the issue, meaning
that, well, everyone experiencesdepression and the people if
you don't have good peoplearound you, they may just think
that it's not that big of a deal, which could push you further
into a depressive state.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Depression is less common than anxiety, because I
think anxiety is a normal humanemotion, but depression seems to
be a little bit worse,something that maybe develops
from anxiety and some otherthings.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Yeah, yeah, Usually they're hand in hand.
That's the other interestingpart of this.
But working with the collegepopulation, what you see in a
lot of this is, across thecountry, what you see each year.
It's either anxiety is numberone a mental health issue or
depression.
And I think I want to say lastyear and this year has been
anxiety, and after COVID, whichagain would make sense was
(08:00):
depression, right, Lack ofsocial circles.
You have to be by yourself likethat.
Depression rates went sky highafter that.
So, yeah, it varies withcollege students, but those
typically are at the top anxietyand depression.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
So if those alternate , then what causes people to
struggle with depression?
What are some key causes?
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Yeah, a lot of the key factors are this expectation
to, especially in Christiancircles, this expectation to be
happy.
The joy of the Lord is ourstrength.
Right, there's this emphasis onbeing joyful and happy and
serviceful and pleasant.
So for those who are depressed,often because they don't feel
that way, it could push themfurther into that aspect of
(08:40):
depression.
They don't feel like they'regood enough.
Again, that's another thing too, for those who are depressed is
that they don't feel likethey're good enough Christian
because they're not happy allthe time.
So they're not choosing, orthey're not seeking out social
connection with other people.
Another thing is isolation, andisolation doesn't necessarily
(09:00):
have to be that they're choosingit.
It could actually just befriends are growing out of the
relationship and everyone'sdoing their own thing, so
there's this increased level ofisolation.
This is something that studentsexperience when they first come
to college is that they leavetheir hometown, right, they
leave their family, they leavetheir core group of friends.
So when they come to college,it's this newness of oh man, I'm
(09:21):
alone again.
How am I going to do this?
Some adapt very well and somenot so much.
But for those who areexperiencing depression, yeah,
they're going to feel isolated.
Who do I connect with?
I lost every foundation that Ihad, and now I'm here in this
new setting working with ortrying to get to know new people
.
Another piece could be anattachment style, right, an
(09:43):
attachment style of avoidance oranxiety, Like I'm not going to
be good enough to make goodfriends, or I'd rather not.
I've been doing things bymyself, so let me just finish my
degree and move on.
So those are some of thefactors, and again, I'm mainly
associated to students, becausethat's the population that I
work with, but again you couldsee this with adults too.
Changes life stage change Everyseven years.
(10:05):
This seems to be a physical,but also a mental, shift in how
people adjust to theirsurroundings, and that can be
depressing, because you thoughtthat you were always going to be
the same, or that the plansthat you had were going to
remain the same, and sometimesthey don't.
They change, so that could putyou into a depressive state too.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
So you mentioned with Christians there's this
expectation to be happy.
So do you think that there's astigma if someone is depressed
or going to counseling, like,don't talk about it because
it'll be seen as there'ssomething wrong with you and
there's something spirituallywrong with you?
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Yeah, I think that's changed a lot in the last couple
of years, and you'll see thistoo because we've talked about
this where a lot of churches arenow emphasizing a lot of mental
health practices and addressingissues from the pulpit, so
they're almost like, in a way,trying to normalize it.
I mean, I've heard numeroussermons where the pastors from
(10:57):
the pulpit are saying go getprofessional help, go get
counseling right, when 20, 30years ago the church would have
seen that as theirresponsibility, like, hey, come
see us as the pastors, ministers, we'll be there for you, we'll
give you scripture, right.
That was their way of dealingwith that.
And I don't know if I've seenthat as much today and you know,
I'd be interested to hear whatyou have to say about that is
(11:18):
that there is this push andemphasis in our church culture
to seek professional mentalhealth services and seek us as
the pastors or the leaders ofthe church to help with any
spiritual issues that you mayhave are struggling with.
Do you see the same thing, tim?
Speaker 2 (11:36):
I think there's an increasing acceptance of the
role of mental health counselorsand even medication and things
like that, but I still thinkthat among evangelical circles,
if someone is in counseling forsomething, if someone is on a
medication for something thatthey are somehow spiritually
deficient, yeah.
I do still see that stigma.
(11:56):
It's maybe not said explicitlybut it's certainly implicit.
Speaking from someone who walksin seminary ministry circles, I
can tell you firsthand that isdefinitely a stigma among the
ministry circles, with pastorsand full-time church workers and
things like that is that it'smaybe okay to if you have some
(12:21):
sort of traumatic life event,like a death in the family or
something like that.
Okay, I go to counseling for alittle bit.
You know something like griefcounseling, but the thought of
struggling with depression or orstruggling with anxiety and
going on medication for a bit,those things are definitely
stigmas that get attached to theperson because others gossip or
(12:44):
they get passed over forpromotion in their church or
they don't get hired by a churchor something like that.
You know it's.
I definitely think that stillis a thing within.
I know of someone personally whoit wasn't even a serious thing,
they just mentioned.
They're like hey, somethingcame up and I decided to just go
(13:06):
to counseling.
We talked about this and thatthis person was about to start
the ordination process.
You know receive theirordination from the church and
the staff that was consideringordination.
They said, well, let's justpause ordination for now, and
then it was never revisited, sothe person never got ordained by
that church because theydisclosed hey, this something
(13:29):
came up and I'm going to go to,I'm going to disclose it to a
close confidant friend and thatfriend just happened to be on
staff at the church and talkedabout it and then, yeah, so it
came back on the person and thenthey were really like hurt by
that.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Yeah, Well, I think a lot of people are scared of
that too, tim, because rememberI don't know if you heard about
this story, but out inCalifornia, actually this is one
of the pastors that I followeda lot growing up Pastor Greg
Laurie, harvest ChristianFellowship one of his pastors
kind of had shared and he wasvery open about it I'm
struggling with depression, butI'm seeking professional help
(14:04):
and so on.
It got so bad that he actuallycommitted suicide and left
behind his family and so on.
So it was a really sad storyand I think that's what pastors,
or people who are hiringpastors, are paying attention to
.
They're like do we want to havesomeone on staff that is
struggling with mental healthissues and how severe is it?
Again, depression is tricky,because depression the way that
(14:26):
is compensated by people who areexperiencing it is to be on the
opposite end, overly joyful,overly happy, overly serviceful,
to hide the feelings of sadnessand mental wise.
It makes sense for them becausethey're saying well, this will
help me not to focus on myselfand I'm focusing on other people
.
So that's the solution.
I'm thinking too much of myself, I need to focus on other
(14:48):
people, and the thing is thatthere's a level of truth to that
.
And there's also this otherpiece that can be very dangerous
, which is what happened withthis pastor, where I think he
got so involved in being therefor other people that it makes
you feel more lonely and, toyour point, one of the I think
maybe it was two, three yearsago that I read this, but one of
the common struggles among leadpastors was depression because
(15:13):
of loneliness, which makes a lotof sense, right, when you're
the one who's leading the church, people are questioning People
don't know if they, you know, ifthey agree with you.
For these people who are onsocial media and they're, you
know, creating waves like whatother people perceive them as
right.
It isolates you.
Sometimes people from thechurch hurt you.
So you'll hear a lot of storiesfrom pastors.
(15:35):
Like you know, I felt like Icouldn't trust anyone, so I
couldn't share that with anyone,couldn't even share with my
wife, or couldn't share this orthat.
So, again, depression is trickybecause the way to compensate
for that is to do the opposite.
So that's why people don'treally catch it or even if they
become aware of it, they don'treally know what to do with it.
Like this guy, this pastor, hewas open about it.
(15:55):
But again, people ultimatelymake a decision and I think the
pressure was so much that hefelt that that was a better
option at the time.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Was it that when he revealed his depression, did he
not take a break from ministry,like when you said it got so bad
, what?
What was the?
What happened after hedisclosed that he had depression
?
Did the church cut him off?
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Like no, no, they were.
They were actually realsupportive of him.
So they were very supportive ofhim.
They saw that he was going tocounseling and so on.
But again, even for us ascounselors, one of the hard
things to do I think I learnedthis early on is that you can't
feel responsible or you have toavoid feeling responsible for
decisions that people make.
So with depression, it creates alittle sense of anxiety and
(16:41):
fear sometimes, because if aperson is really depressed, you
have to figure out are theytelling me the whole truth?
And if they're not, how do Iget there?
And a big part of it is howyou're responding to their
depressive state in session.
Right, because if they don'tfeel safe, they're not going to
tell you everything, and eventhen they're still trying to
(17:02):
appear like a good client, whichmeans that they don't want to
come into every session sad.
And there's always somethingnegative to talk about because
it does take a toll on thecounselor.
It's hard working with peoplewho are depressed, but for them
the solution is having a safe,secure place.
But they also need that outsideof session too, and I don't
(17:25):
know what they're sharing withother people.
They may be saying yeah, well,my mom knows I'm coming to
counseling, my dad knows, myleader knows I'm coming to
counseling, my dad knows, myleader knows and all this stuff.
But internally, unless we digdeep to find out what's actually
causing it, yeah, it becomesvery, very difficult to
determine what the core issue is.
But these other things thatwe'll talk about soon that can
help with that are oftenneglected Sleep, diet, exercise.
(17:49):
The tricky word that people useis I'm not motivated.
But what we learn is that, well, we don't need the motivation
piece, we need the disciplinepiece.
The thing is, we need to startreally small so that they don't
feel like it's this mountainthat they have to overcome.
So little steps with each ofthese other factors sleep, diet,
(18:10):
physical activity.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Okay.
So, at the risk of beating adead horse here, I think for a
lot of people, if they're goingthrough depression, I think
depression is a tricky onebecause if you've experienced
depression, you understandpeople who struggle with it.
If you're the type ofpersonality that has not really
experienced depression, likedepression is different than
(18:33):
sadness and some people whenthey say well, I've been sad
before, it's like, oh man, youdon't get it Right.
Yeah, you know, it might behard for them to understand what
depression is.
I think for those who strugglewith it, I think maybe there's a
focus on what's the root cause,like how did I get here?
Like what's causing thedepression?
(18:55):
I understand maybe isolation iscontributing to it, or this,
that or the other.
Or is it a combination ofthings where it's like a
mounting series ofdisappointments that lead them
to this conclusion that thefuture has no hope, that lead
them to this conclusion that thefuture has no hope?
Or is it anxiety, where I'veread this before where someone
(19:15):
who's anxious, they'll take onavoidant behaviors because
they're anxious about socialsettings, they're anxious about
relationships or this, that orthe other, and so that the
anxiety starts to sabotage allof their future plans and
desires that they have, and so,then, that leads to a series of
failures, which then leads todespair and hope for the future.
Yeah, I don't know you want totalk about any of that.
(19:36):
I guess I just unloaded allthat, no, no, that was good,
that was good man.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Yeah, One of the and this I think I shared with you
maybe a year or two ago wherepeople think that talking about
their depression is what helps,and that's not actually what
helps.
What helps is when you shareeven a little bit, is how the
other person responds who you'resharing with.
So one of the complaints maybethat people who are depressed
(20:04):
have is that no one cares aboutme, no one listens to me.
So the undertone to that isI've shared with people just a
little bit of my depression andthe response was oh go, do this.
It wasn't just being in thatmoment as they're experiencing
that level of sadness and lackof motivation.
It was solution focused.
But you can't give a solutionto someone who's just not
(20:26):
motivated or in that space to beable to do that, so they feel
unheard.
So if I'm feeling unheard, I'mnot going to share anymore with
people.
So how do I cope with this?
Right?
So the only thing I can do is,I guess, only share what I want
to share and not the real issue.
So when you do that for so long, it almost becomes confusing
even for them to know what toactually share and what's
(20:47):
actually helping, but it'salways a combination of multiple
things, but one that I think Ineed to highlight here is that,
for those of you who arelistening, if you have
experienced depression, one ofthe things that will keep it
going is continuously talkingabout it.
If you continue to talk aboutit, what you're doing is you're
training your mind to only thinkin the negative, because
(21:09):
everything is in that space ofnegative.
Now you might say, well, how doI share with people if I'm
going to try to cope with thisbetter?
Right, I need to sharesomething about it.
Yeah, but we're not justtalking about when you share
with people.
It's when you go home, whenyou're driving, like the
narrative in your mind thatyou've created is everything is
always going wrong, and thatjust puts you in that constant
(21:30):
cycle of depression.
You say, well, what do I doabout that?
So one common technique that ishelpful and this has actually a
lot of good research supportbehind it is this aspect of
gratefulness Biblical, but alsoresearch-founded.
What things are you gratefulfor?
And that's hard to transitionfrom everything's wrong to what
(21:52):
am I grateful for right?
But again, these are practicesthat you need to work through,
to do for a certain amount oftime to change that mindset.
Again, it depends how longyou've been in the state.
It takes work.
It takes a lot of work.
That's why the role of thecounselor is so important.
Can I make you feel safe andunjudged?
What you're experiencingdoesn't scare me regarding the
(22:15):
feelings that you have.
It doesn't mean that you're abad Christian, right.
So we're rearranging andchanging some beliefs as well.
But also, you know what You'restill here, what's kept you here
?
What's kept you from notgetting to that place of you
know what.
I want to take my life, and Iwant to.
I just don't need to be hereanymore.
(22:35):
And there is a lot of supportbehind this aspect of
gratefulness.
Okay, Can you pick one thingthat you are grateful for and
can that be your new narrative?
I am thankful for X, for thisperson, for my parents, for this
job, for my relationship withChrist, whatever it is, and just
building on that right.
And then you can find otherthings.
(22:55):
What else am I grateful for?
And again, I always harp on thebasics, but they're so
important and it's oftenoverlooked sleep, diet, physical
activity, Like I can't say thatenough, because those are
natural producers of happyhormones.
So, getting good sleep, eatingwell and exercise.
(23:15):
It's going to produce goodhappy hormones for you to feel
good, Epinephrine, adrenalineand so on.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Good, all right.
So you talked about sleep,sleep, diet.
You know, I I've I've read thisbefore somewhere that physical
activity, specifically weightlifting, is a really good remedy
for depression even if it's atemporary one, because obviously
it's not going to cure.
If you have some deep depressionabout something, it's not going
to cure everything.
Like you know, going to the gymand lifting weights isn't gonna
(23:46):
do everything but the act of Iin that.
I think researchers kind ofsaid that they came to the
conclusion that it's the processof when you lift weights.
You have this feeling ofaccomplishment that you're
pushing through and you'reliterally pushing through and
overcoming an obstacle of somesort, that it actually is like a
(24:07):
little bitty mental victory inyour life.
And so not that you shouldn'tlook at exercise as like this is
my cure for depression, becausethen you won't enjoy exercising
, you'll look at it like thepill.
You know that somebody looks ata pill and they either become
dependent on it or they resentit.
So you have to enjoy exercisefor what it is, but it actually
(24:30):
does help you a lot.
I've read that before.
You know which is weightliftingin particular.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Yeah, no, no, you're right.
And again, there's a lot thatyou can go into with all that
the physical activity piece.
But another thing I think thisis really important.
Actually, if you're feelingdepressed, you know, usually we
do a rating, a scaling right.
How depressed do you feel?
So, zero being, I don't feeldepressed at all.
10 feeling I feel miserable andI want to die.
So that's number 10, right.
So let's say, someone feels atan eight.
(24:57):
The goal and I think this is themisconception that people have
is not to get to zero, so to gofrom eight to zero.
First of all, you don't want tohave zero as a goal, you just
want to have less than what youcurrently are experiencing.
So we work down a little bit inscale.
So, okay, you're feeling at aneight right now.
That's pretty high, it'ssignificant.
How do you want to feel at theend of our five, six, seven
(25:21):
sessions?
Like what would be ideal foryou?
And you say, well, I want to bezero.
Well, let's try to picksomething a little bit more
realistic.
How about a five or six?
Does that sound doable?
You say, well, yeah, it's stillnot what I want, but it's
better, but it's better, okay.
So you start working towardsthat.
It's a realistic goal, it'sdoable and you can gauge that
(25:41):
every week leading up to thatbeing the final goal.
But I think where people getmixed up with is they want a
zero and you can't have thatbecause we all experience it at
different levels, and differentsituations may cause you to move
up to an eight or a nine, andother times you'll be at a two
or three and that's okay, kindof this normalizing process,
(26:01):
like it's okay for you to be ata two or a three.
That, yeah, that's okay.
The goal in counseling is can Iget it to feel less than less
than what I'm currentlyexperiencing?
And that provides a sense ofhealing too.
Like, yeah, I'm not feeling it.
Five is still not ideal, but Ifeel better.
Right, and that could be yournew narrative, your new story,
(26:21):
that I'm feeling better.
And to your point you addexercise, you add changing
certain beliefs about it, likeall those things contribute to
you continuing to feel better orto live with it.
And that's okay too, to be ableto live with something, but
it's at a lesser scale, you know, not as painful as it used to
be.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
All right.
So just to wrap it up withmaybe one more question what are
some ways that a Christian cangrow spiritually even when
experiencing depression?
Maybe minimal level?
Severe depression is one thing,but maybe just a minimum level
of depression.
What are some ways a Christiancan still grow in the midst of
that?
Speaker 1 (27:01):
Yeah, well, you heard me mention earlier about
serving others.
Right, and again, that's a fineline because, on one hand, it's
you're serving others and ifthat becomes your goal or your
identity, right, I'm going toserve others.
I'm not focusing on myself.
There's a danger there becauseyou still want to think about
your own healing and you want tobalance that out with also, hey
(27:23):
, you know what, I can alsostill focus on other people.
So there's a balance Need tolearn how to okay, I'm going to
serve others and also need totend to how I'm feeling.
I'm feeling depressed.
Do I need something?
If you can be around otherpeople, not who are necessarily
always positive, but who arerealistic in their view of what
depression can look like, again,people who can just hear you
(27:45):
out.
They're not going to give yousolutions, they're not going to
ignore you, but they're willingto listen, right.
So it's finding those peopleand that's the challenge.
But you can do that when you'reserving other people, because
you start to see different partsof their personality and who
they are and you get to knowthem in different ways.
Right, but don't overdo it onthe service part, because it
could be to your own detriment,where all the focus is on the
(28:08):
people, so much so that when youare by yourself, it's just this
doom and gloom just laying overyou and that becomes your whole
focus again.
So don't use serving people asa distraction.
Just make it a spiritualdiscipline.
I guess a practice in your lifewhere, okay, I can serve here
in this ministry or I can gohelp this couple over here,
(28:29):
whatever the case is.
But I think there's there'ssomething important to be said
that God can minister to you inboth ways when you're serving
others and also after that.
Okay, what does this mean forme as a believer?
Obviously, prayer is a bigthing, because when you're, it's
not that your friends don'twant to be there with you, right
, you might have some reallygood friends, maybe even one
best friend.
And when you're reallystruggling at night and it's not
(28:52):
because your friend wouldn'twant to be there, they just
can't physically, right, you'resleeping, or it's really late at
night, or they have somethinggoing on and you do too, but
prayer becomes a big part ofthat.
That's your way of keeping thatopen dialogue with God, sharing
what those struggles are,reinforcing your faith and
growing in that.
But with that, what would yourecommend, tim, as people who do
(29:15):
struggle with depression.
Maybe there's some charactersin scripture or people in
scripture that, yeah, I meanthey went through some pretty
tough depressive episodes andwhat kept them moving forward.
You know how did they grow intheir faith?
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Well, I so I'm a little different in this regard.
I tend to, I think, personallynot to not to squash your
question, but I tend to be verycareful about just pointing to a
character in scripture.
Job is the obvious example thatpeople will point to.
I think Job is not a greatexample because he went through
(29:50):
a huge traumatic event.
Oh, yeah, Losing everything youknow, that's very different than
someone who struggles with,like a chronic depression for
years and years on end.
That's a good point.
I just I just don't know ifthere's a character in scripture
that isn't as a good example ofof someone who struggles with
prolonged depression.
So I don't want to just likeput a bandaid on the situation
(30:14):
to say, well, like this personin the Bible struggled with
depression.
Are there biblical principles?
Yeah, so if we understanddepression as the ability or the
inability to perceive apositive future, I think in
general the principle inscripture is to we fix our eyes
(30:35):
on the hope of a future life.
I want to be careful because ifsomeone has suicidal ideations
or something like that, that canbe kind of tempting to say,
well, look, why don't I justtake myself out of this life and
into the next?
So I want to caution againstthat.
But our myself out of this lifeand into the next, so I want to
(30:55):
caution against that.
But a lot of times, like we canbecome sad and depressed even
in this life, when ourexpectations are fixed on
something here and thoseexpectations aren't met and then
we begin to despair because webegin to conclude that this life
will never deliver thatexpectation that I've had, and
so I've become very sad anddepressed because of that.
(31:18):
I think I like what you said afew minutes ago about well,
you're still here, you know,you're still kicking, you're
still drawing breath and thereis some sort of purpose that God
has for you still on thisplanet.
If you are a Christian, youreternal hope is secure in Christ
.
But again, we're talking aboutpeople who maybe struggle to
(31:40):
understand that or struggle tofeel that God loves them.
But if you can say, look,you're still breathing, you're
still drawing breath and God hassome sort of purpose for you
here and understanding like orfinding what that purpose is is
going to be valuable and goingto be life giving to you.
So trying to reorient them tobe future oriented again,
(32:04):
instead of fixating on thepresent moment of grief or other
disappointment, sadness, momentof grief or other
disappointment, sadness tryingto fix on some sort of new
mission, new goal, sort of new,almost new chapter in life and
finding the purpose that Godwould maybe have for them here I
know that's a vague answerbecause I'm not slapping.
(32:26):
You know some Bible verses onthat, but you know there's lots
of Psalms where thesalmist isstruggling with lots of sadness
and things like that, but again,like we don't know if that's
depression.
We know it's sadness but wedon't know if it's depression,
because depression is a verywe're talking about very
something very specific wherethe brain sort of gets locked
(32:47):
into fixating on the negative.
You know, I found even hearingthe testimonies of people who
they take up some sort of newthing in the kingdom.
They take up some sort of new,like you mentioned, serving
other people or something likethat, and it gives them just a
(33:07):
new sense of purpose in life.
So I think that's on thepositive side, trying to do
something like that.
On the negative side and thisgoes for christians we've got to
do I hate saying the word dobetter.
We've got to figure out a wayto stop stigmatizing people who
are in different stages of life.
I think that's where a lot ofdepression comes from with
(33:29):
people is that feeling ofisolation.
I I've said this before thatthere's this implicit formula in
evangelicalism, like there'sthis formulaic life within
evangelicalism and if yourindividual life doesn't fit that
formula, it's almost like thechurch doesn't know what to do
with you.
Like churches don't know whatto do with it.
They don't have, they don'tknow what to do with older
(33:49):
singles, they don't know a lotof times what to do with
divorcees, or they'll have likea little class, like oh, I'll
put all the divorce people inthis class, like, oh yeah,
that's not awkward, they.
They just, let's say, someonewho's whose children all walk
away from the Lord, or like it'san elderly person who shut in
(34:09):
in their home and the churchdoes a better job, I think, with
elderly shut-ins than they dowith maybe older singles or
divorced people or something.
But there's just thesedifferent pockets of individuals
who go through life and life isharder for them and they can be
more, they can be easilydepressed because of that.
Because in the Christian circlesagain, if your life doesn't
(34:32):
match that formula married withkids, live in the suburban
lifestyle, whatever that is youcan easily feel socially
isolated and that's, I think,the kicker, is the social
isolation that comes from yourlife not matching with the
majority of evangelicalChristians experience, and that
(34:52):
feeling can can be really reallydetrimental and I just think
that a lot of uh forevangelicals out there, they.
I think we really just got tostep back and kind of think
about what, like how we wereeven programming our churches,
like I'll be programming ourchurches to satisfy, to meet the
formula, rather thanrecognizing that the church is
(35:12):
full of a lot of broken peopleuh, that all come from all walks
of life.
I think for the christian who'smaybe struggling in those
circles, like find a ministrywhere you don't feel like you're
isolated or that you're kind oflike segmented off from the
church, like this is the thingwith, like, divorcees and single
people, as I've mentioned.
(35:33):
They don't want to be inclasses that are for divorcees
and singles Right, like that's.
I mean, that's like giving theman ugly Christmas sweater and
telling them to wear it everySunday.
Right, that's not.
That's not my joke.
That's Doug Wilson's joke, okay, but yeah, that's now.
That's not my joke.
That's doug wilson's joke, okay, but yeah, it's like that.
(35:53):
It's like, man, I'm reallystruggling with singleness, or
I'm really struggling with theregret from divorce.
Hey, here's an idea we got thisclass for people just like you,
and so when you go to thatclass, everyone's gonna know
that you have the same problemtoo, it's just horrible.
It's just a horrible thing likethat's such a good um and it's
only, it's just only somethingthat awkward evangelicals can
come up with.
(36:13):
I would say just just avoidthat stuff, don't, don't, don't
give into the expectations thatyou have to.
You have to do that, you know,um, and some ways stand up for
yourself in church, yeah, butanyway.
Okay, I'm going on for a longtime about that, but no, that's
good, that's good.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
Yeah, I like the point that you made just about
not using people in scripture totry to define something.
That's an ongoing problem herein the present modern church.
But still, even as youmentioned the Psalms, just we
have a sense of connection withthat, because we understand
those feelings of sadness orbroken, or feeling alone or
(36:57):
sought after right For, maybenot necessarily for being killed
, but just the aspect of havingall those very difficult
emotions that people have,emotions that people have.
And I do just want to referback to this aspect of
journaling and being grateful,seeking things that you can be
grateful for, because that putsyou in the present and it makes
you just become very aware okay,what's happening right now that
(37:21):
I can be grateful and you willfind something is just getting
through that initial block of,well, there's nothing, okay,
let's just sit here with it andmaybe something will come up.
And I really do encourage theclient to just sit there with
even in that silence of, okay,we'll find something, but
letting them come up withsomething that they're grateful
for.
I could suggest things, butit's always best for them to
(37:43):
come up with those things Likewhat pops into your mind when
you think about something thatyou're grateful for and really
journaling and that becomes yournew narrative, you start
building on that Along with okay, I talked about lack of
motivation.
The lack of motivation really issaying that I haven't chosen
something to be disciplined with.
Now I know that doesn't soundairing in a sense, but really
(38:05):
what we're trying to move themto is to take some small action
steps, and the more motivated aclient is to get out of that
depressive state, the morewilling they'll be to take those
little steps.
Again, if it's too big of astep, then that's just going to
put them back into thatdepressive state.
But if it's something that theycan see themselves doing again,
something that they come upwith, you can build on that very
(38:26):
easily and, with some time, getthem out of state at least to
lower right.
We don't want to zero, but wewant less than what you're
currently experiencing.
Two to three points lower isusually pretty good, but yeah,
one thing I I forgot to mention.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
And then we need to get to your book recommendation.
Um, I would think, I think theconcept of redemption might help
.
But this is just me as a umlayman, you know, with
theologian talking perhaps likeencouraging someone to dream
about, to, to dream about howthe lord might redeem their
(38:59):
situation.
So I think if you can getsomeone to believe that, like,
the lord will redeem all thingsnot to put the trite, you know,
band-aid on on it, like, oh, youknow, all things work together
for good to them who love God,to them who call her according
to his purpose, it's true.
So but get someone to tounderstand the Lord is going to
(39:19):
redeem.
When you get to the end of yourlife, the Lord will redeem, he
can redeem everything in yourlife.
So, if that's true, even thoughyou don't feel it right now, is
maybe trying to get them to havethe freedom to dream about how
the Lord can redeem thedisappointments in their past.
(39:40):
Because if they haven't, ifthey're having a hard time
imagining a positive future,maybe the the permission to
dream about how the Lord mightredeem some things in their past
and help them put new meaningon the things that they suffered
through, like maybe they justdon't understand why they lost
their parents or just a lovedone, lost their child, lost a
(40:03):
friend, or they don't understandwhy they went through major
financial collapse or healthissues or loneliness or whatever
it is, and maybe they'reblaming themselves for it.
Maybe it's like it didn'thappen to me.
I did it and I've ruined mylife, you know.
I think the having thepermission to dream about how
God might redeem their life cancan help.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
Yeah, no, that's a great suggestion, tim.
I think people who arelistening will benefit from that
, seeing there's always aredemptive piece to that story,
and that's part of looking forthat.
What am I grateful for?
Well, here's the part that'sbeing renewed or that's being
changed in me as I go throughthis stage of life.
So, yeah, great recommendation.
(40:46):
Along with that, just wanted togive a quick recommendation for
a book.
This one's actually a reallygood, smaller book, but very
practical.
It's called Learn Hopefulnessand it says the Power of
Positivity to OvercomeDepression, dan Tomasulo, dr Dan
Tomasulo, and one of the thingsthat he emphasized, obviously
(41:08):
there's this aspect of well, howcan I be hopeful in a hopeless
situation?
Right, a lot of it is justreorienting the mind to this
aspect of gratefulness.
I think it even talks about inthere, about putting down a list
of things that you're gratefulfor, along with the goal being
I'm trying to establish a senseof hope even in the midst of a
very dark, despairing situation.
(41:29):
So there's a lot of practices.
It has a lot of good exercisesfor you to do.
It's very strengths-based.
So the positivity piece is notjust think positive.
It's more so focused on whatstrengths do you have that can
contribute to developing ahopeful attitude towards the
current situation.
Right, we all have strengthsand weaknesses, so it's really
about exploring what are somestrengths that you have in where
(41:52):
you currently are and can youbuild on those things right?
So maybe you don't have thestrength of, I don't know,
planning ahead of time, butyou're really good at thinking
big picture right and you getpeople to fill out the details,
but focusing on the things thatyou have that are strengths and
(42:13):
how can those strengths help youin this current situation that
you're in so very, very helpfulbook.
So I recommend that and also ourvery own, brian Funderburg.
He said he read a book and heasked me to share this with you
guys as well Called Feeling Goodby David Burns.
It's a CBT book.
We've been talking about CBTand how effective that is, so I
(42:35):
assumed that it would be a goodbook to read.
If you give it a bad review,I'll let Brian know.
And he said this is fine.
He told me I could use that asa joke, so keep me posted.
Thank you for tuning in.
Hopefully this was helpful.
We know a lot of peoplestruggle with anxiety,
depression.
So, yeah, hopefully thesecouple of episodes have been of
(42:57):
help to you.
So thanks for tuning in guys.
Follow us on Instagram and onour Apple podcast, and we will
catch up with you next time.
All right, everyone, welcome to the Psych and Theo
podcast.
Sam and Tim here on a somewhatof a series on anxiety,
depression and forgiveness, andtoday we're doing a topic on
depression and what that lookslike in a Christian context and
how believers can learn tomanage it and do so still in a
(00:23):
biblical way and also understandjust the clinical component to
it.
So, yeah, we're going to talkabout that today.
As always, follow us onInstagram, psych underscore and
underscore Theo, and you canalso email us any questions, any
topics that you would like forus to cover at psychandtheo, at
gmailcom, and, again, you canfind us on Spotify and Apple
(00:46):
Podcasts.
We're really excited to beseeing the level of involvement
and engagement you guys havewith these topics.
And, yeah, we have a bunch moretopics to look forward to, and
Tim here is going to start usoff with a couple of questions
and, as always, as I've learnedfrom him, we need to find our
terms Right, tim.
So we're going to find whatdepression is here.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Yeah, so let's get into what is depression and how
does it manifest in individuals.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Yeah, so depression is a common feeling or
persistent feeling of sadness,hopelessness, lack of interest
and even withdrawal from socialcircles.
Lack of interest and evenwithdrawal from social circles
so that's typically kind of whatyou see.
People describe it, as you know, this constant feeling of I'm
alone, no one wants me veryisolated they don't seek to be
(01:37):
in community with other peoplejust a lack of interest in
general with things, activitiesand people that they're usually
would be comfortable with.
And again, when it becomes aclinical component at least when
we talk about this topic, it'show much does it actually impact
or limit the person's dailyactivities, right?
(01:57):
So if someone is feeling reallydepressed, they're probably not
going to be very productive atwork, they're probably going to
be very less engaging inrelationships, not as
conversational.
They're not going to seek outany social settings, anything
like that.
So those are the things thatyou'll probably see with someone
who's struggling withdepression.
But at the same time and we'veseen this with a lot of movie
(02:19):
stars, actors, artists and so onis that they may seem fine on
the outside.
Right, some people often thathave depression.
The way to compensate for thatis being overly happy and overly
joyful, and usually it comes inthe form of making other people
happy.
So they're veryself-sacrificial in being there
(02:40):
for other people because theyknow what it feels like to be
either ignored or unwanted.
So a common theme for those whoare struggling with depression
is that they are constantly forother people because they know
what it feels like to be eitherignored or unwanted.
So a common theme for those whoare struggling with depression
is that they are constantlydoing for others, and it doesn't
always manifest itself in thesame way, but that is one common
characteristic that we startedto see a lot with these people
who are very successful or whowere struggling with depression
(03:01):
and you wouldn't have knownright Until you start digging a
little bit deeper into theirstory.
You know, I think of RobinWilliams, classic example of
that.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
So okay, so those are some characteristics of
depression.
Tell me if this is wrong.
I've heard depression describedas the inability to perceive a
positive future.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Yeah, yeah, I mean that's a really good description
of that as well is that theycan't see any light at the end
of the tunnel.
Hopelessness, basically, isanother characteristic.
They don't see any hope for thefuture.
They haven't had anyexperiences presently that are
demonstrating that there couldbe a hope, and they have not
experienced that in the pasteither.
(03:41):
Or it's so far away, so far, orso early on in their life that
they don't even they forgot whatit looks like.
I'm going to recommend the booka little bit later that talks
about that, but yeah, in general, I think that's a good
description of that.
There's no perceived hope inthe future.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Okay, so let's talk about normalization, and
normalization doesn't mean we'recondoning it or calling it a
good thing, but what we mean isby normalized we mean recognize
its prevalence and commonalityamong people.
So what would be the benefitsof doing that with Christians
and what would be the downsidesof normalizing depression?
Speaker 1 (04:20):
Yeah, you know, and this goes the same for anxiety
as it does with depression,which is this aspect of reducing
the stigma around it, because,again, christians shouldn't feel
sad, they shouldn't feeldepressed, they shouldn't be
isolating themselves, theyshould be seeking community,
right, all of those things thatyou're supposed to do as a
Christian for the person who'sexperiencing depression.
(04:41):
They're not doing that.
So there's this added level ofshame and I know what I'm
supposed to be doing as aChristian, but I'm just not
motivated to do those things.
And I'm going to talk aboutmotivation a little bit here.
But there is this aspect ofbecause I'm depressed and that
means that maybe my faith isweak, that I'm not doing
something right, I'm doingsomething wrong.
(05:01):
But again, if we look atscripture, we could look at the
Psalms, we could look atdifferent people in the Bible
that experience levels ofdepression, right, we just want
to describe it in that way Likewith time, the definition for a
lot of these experiences changes, you know.
So you have major depressivedisorder, you have other types
(05:23):
of disorders.
That kind of just limits theamount of time that you
experience sadness.
So grief can often look likedepression, right, if you just
lost someone you know, grievingthem could look like depression
because you're isolatingyourself, you're not wanting any
social interactions, you're notfeeling motivated to do
anything.
So the benefits are younormalize the idea that, hey,
(05:44):
we've all experienced depression.
This is not saying yourdepression is less or more, it's
just we've all been there.
So understand, there'scommonality there.
Secondly is that it can alsohelp with not making it or not
associating it to a lack offaith.
Just because you experienceddepression, it could be
justifiable based on yoursituation, right.
(06:04):
If you lose someone and youstay in that state for such a
long time, you grieve and thenthat could turn into depression.
Like we people, I think,understand that like man, I'd be
depressed too, right?
So there's something therewhere, as a counselor, when I
have someone who is experiencingdepression, if I can share with
them like I would feel that waytoo, like there's nothing wrong
with how you're feeling it.
(06:24):
If I can share with them like Iwould feel that way too, like
there's nothing wrong with howyou're feeling, it's a feeling
right.
So there is that aspect.
And then, lastly, I think abenefit of it is that it could
increase the willingness ofothers to help you, meaning that
those who are experiencingdepression.
They often don't share about it.
You can see it, you canprobably.
They show some signs, but whenyou ask them about it,
everything's fine.
You know it's not really a bigdeal until it is.
(06:46):
So.
Depression is dangerous becauseit could lead to thoughts of
suicide, it could lead tofurther isolation and so on.
But when you're sharing aboutthat depression, normalizing it,
could mean that you alsonormalize people wanting to help
and wanting to be there for you.
Depressed people usually sufferalone, so that's why it's so
important to have that strongsocial circle right.
(07:08):
So without the appropriatecontext, the downside could be
that it's just a complacency inaddressing the issue, meaning
that, well, everyone experiencesdepression and the people if
you don't have good peoplearound you, they may just think
that it's not that big of a deal, which could push you further
into a depressive state.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Depression is less common than anxiety, because I
think anxiety is a normal humanemotion, but depression seems to
be a little bit worse,something that maybe develops
from anxiety and some otherthings.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Yeah, yeah, Usually they're hand in hand.
That's the other interestingpart of this.
But working with the collegepopulation, what you see in a
lot of this is, across thecountry, what you see each year.
It's either anxiety is numberone a mental health issue or
depression.
And I think I want to say lastyear and this year has been
anxiety, and after COVID, whichagain would make sense was
(08:00):
depression, right, Lack ofsocial circles.
You have to be by yourself likethat.
Depression rates went sky highafter that.
So, yeah, it varies withcollege students, but those
typically are at the top anxietyand depression.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
So if those alternate , then what causes people to
struggle with depression?
What are some key causes?
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Yeah, a lot of the key factors are this expectation
to, especially in Christiancircles, this expectation to be
happy.
The joy of the Lord is ourstrength.
Right, there's this emphasis onbeing joyful and happy and
serviceful and pleasant.
So for those who are depressed,often because they don't feel
that way, it could push themfurther into that aspect of
(08:40):
depression.
They don't feel like they'regood enough.
Again, that's another thing too, for those who are depressed is
that they don't feel likethey're good enough Christian
because they're not happy allthe time.
So they're not choosing, orthey're not seeking out social
connection with other people.
Another thing is isolation, andisolation doesn't necessarily
(09:00):
have to be that they're choosingit.
It could actually just befriends are growing out of the
relationship and everyone'sdoing their own thing, so
there's this increased level ofisolation.
This is something that studentsexperience when they first come
to college is that they leavetheir hometown, right, they
leave their family, they leavetheir core group of friends.
So when they come to college,it's this newness of oh man, I'm
(09:21):
alone again.
How am I going to do this?
Some adapt very well and somenot so much.
But for those who areexperiencing depression, yeah,
they're going to feel isolated.
Who do I connect with?
I lost every foundation that Ihad, and now I'm here in this
new setting working with ortrying to get to know new people
.
Another piece could be anattachment style, right, an
(09:43):
attachment style of avoidance oranxiety, Like I'm not going to
be good enough to make goodfriends, or I'd rather not.
I've been doing things bymyself, so let me just finish my
degree and move on.
So those are some of thefactors, and again, I'm mainly
associated to students, becausethat's the population that I
work with, but again you couldsee this with adults too.
Changes life stage change Everyseven years.
(10:05):
This seems to be a physical,but also a mental, shift in how
people adjust to theirsurroundings, and that can be
depressing, because you thoughtthat you were always going to be
the same, or that the plansthat you had were going to
remain the same, and sometimesthey don't.
They change, so that could putyou into a depressive state too.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
So you mentioned with Christians there's this
expectation to be happy.
So do you think that there's astigma if someone is depressed
or going to counseling, like,don't talk about it because
it'll be seen as there'ssomething wrong with you and
there's something spirituallywrong with you?
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Yeah, I think that's changed a lot in the last couple
of years, and you'll see thistoo because we've talked about
this where a lot of churches arenow emphasizing a lot of mental
health practices and addressingissues from the pulpit, so
they're almost like, in a way,trying to normalize it.
I mean, I've heard numeroussermons where the pastors from
(10:57):
the pulpit are saying go getprofessional help, go get
counseling right, when 20, 30years ago the church would have
seen that as theirresponsibility, like, hey, come
see us as the pastors, ministers, we'll be there for you, we'll
give you scripture, right.
That was their way of dealingwith that.
And I don't know if I've seenthat as much today and you know,
I'd be interested to hear whatyou have to say about that is
(11:18):
that there is this push andemphasis in our church culture
to seek professional mentalhealth services and seek us as
the pastors or the leaders ofthe church to help with any
spiritual issues that you mayhave are struggling with.
Do you see the same thing, tim?
Speaker 2 (11:36):
I think there's an increasing acceptance of the
role of mental health counselorsand even medication and things
like that, but I still thinkthat among evangelical circles,
if someone is in counseling forsomething, if someone is on a
medication for something thatthey are somehow spiritually
deficient, yeah.
I do still see that stigma.
(11:56):
It's maybe not said explicitlybut it's certainly implicit.
Speaking from someone who walksin seminary ministry circles, I
can tell you firsthand that isdefinitely a stigma among the
ministry circles, with pastorsand full-time church workers and
things like that is that it'smaybe okay to if you have some
(12:21):
sort of traumatic life event,like a death in the family or
something like that.
Okay, I go to counseling for alittle bit.
You know something like griefcounseling, but the thought of
struggling with depression or orstruggling with anxiety and
going on medication for a bit,those things are definitely
stigmas that get attached to theperson because others gossip or
(12:44):
they get passed over forpromotion in their church or
they don't get hired by a churchor something like that.
You know it's.
I definitely think that stillis a thing within.
I know of someone personally whoit wasn't even a serious thing,
they just mentioned.
They're like hey, somethingcame up and I decided to just go
(13:06):
to counseling.
We talked about this and thatthis person was about to start
the ordination process.
You know receive theirordination from the church and
the staff that was consideringordination.
They said, well, let's justpause ordination for now, and
then it was never revisited, sothe person never got ordained by
that church because theydisclosed hey, this something
(13:29):
came up and I'm going to go to,I'm going to disclose it to a
close confidant friend and thatfriend just happened to be on
staff at the church and talkedabout it and then, yeah, so it
came back on the person and thenthey were really like hurt by
that.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Yeah, Well, I think a lot of people are scared of
that too, tim, because rememberI don't know if you heard about
this story, but out inCalifornia, actually this is one
of the pastors that I followeda lot growing up Pastor Greg
Laurie, harvest ChristianFellowship one of his pastors
kind of had shared and he wasvery open about it I'm
struggling with depression, butI'm seeking professional help
(14:04):
and so on.
It got so bad that he actuallycommitted suicide and left
behind his family and so on.
So it was a really sad storyand I think that's what pastors,
or people who are hiringpastors, are paying attention to
.
They're like do we want to havesomeone on staff that is
struggling with mental healthissues and how severe is it?
Again, depression is tricky,because depression the way that
(14:26):
is compensated by people who areexperiencing it is to be on the
opposite end, overly joyful,overly happy, overly serviceful,
to hide the feelings of sadnessand mental wise.
It makes sense for them becausethey're saying well, this will
help me not to focus on myselfand I'm focusing on other people
.
So that's the solution.
I'm thinking too much of myself, I need to focus on other
(14:48):
people, and the thing is thatthere's a level of truth to that
.
And there's also this otherpiece that can be very dangerous
, which is what happened withthis pastor, where I think he
got so involved in being therefor other people that it makes
you feel more lonely and, toyour point, one of the I think
maybe it was two, three yearsago that I read this, but one of
the common struggles among leadpastors was depression because
(15:13):
of loneliness, which makes a lotof sense, right, when you're
the one who's leading the church, people are questioning People
don't know if they, you know, ifthey agree with you.
For these people who are onsocial media and they're, you
know, creating waves like whatother people perceive them as
right.
It isolates you.
Sometimes people from thechurch hurt you.
So you'll hear a lot of storiesfrom pastors.
(15:35):
Like you know, I felt like Icouldn't trust anyone, so I
couldn't share that with anyone,couldn't even share with my
wife, or couldn't share this orthat.
So, again, depression is trickybecause the way to compensate
for that is to do the opposite.
So that's why people don'treally catch it or even if they
become aware of it, they don'treally know what to do with it.
Like this guy, this pastor, hewas open about it.
(15:55):
But again, people ultimatelymake a decision and I think the
pressure was so much that hefelt that that was a better
option at the time.
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Was it that when he revealed his depression, did he
not take a break from ministry,like when you said it got so bad
, what?
What was the?
What happened after hedisclosed that he had depression
?
Did the church cut him off?
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Like no, no, they were.
They were actually realsupportive of him.
So they were very supportive ofhim.
They saw that he was going tocounseling and so on.
But again, even for us ascounselors, one of the hard
things to do I think I learnedthis early on is that you can't
feel responsible or you have toavoid feeling responsible for
decisions that people make.
So with depression, it creates alittle sense of anxiety and
(16:41):
fear sometimes, because if aperson is really depressed, you
have to figure out are theytelling me the whole truth?
And if they're not, how do Iget there?
And a big part of it is howyou're responding to their
depressive state in session.
Right, because if they don'tfeel safe, they're not going to
tell you everything, and eventhen they're still trying to
(17:02):
appear like a good client, whichmeans that they don't want to
come into every session sad.
And there's always somethingnegative to talk about because
it does take a toll on thecounselor.
It's hard working with peoplewho are depressed, but for them
the solution is having a safe,secure place.
But they also need that outsideof session too, and I don't
(17:25):
know what they're sharing withother people.
They may be saying yeah, well,my mom knows I'm coming to
counseling, my dad knows, myleader knows I'm coming to
counseling, my dad knows, myleader knows and all this stuff.
But internally, unless we digdeep to find out what's actually
causing it, yeah, it becomesvery, very difficult to
determine what the core issue is.
But these other things thatwe'll talk about soon that can
help with that are oftenneglected Sleep, diet, exercise.
(17:49):
The tricky word that people useis I'm not motivated.
But what we learn is that, well, we don't need the motivation
piece, we need the disciplinepiece.
The thing is, we need to startreally small so that they don't
feel like it's this mountainthat they have to overcome.
So little steps with each ofthese other factors sleep, diet,
(18:10):
physical activity.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Okay.
So, at the risk of beating adead horse here, I think for a
lot of people, if they're goingthrough depression, I think
depression is a tricky onebecause if you've experienced
depression, you understandpeople who struggle with it.
If you're the type ofpersonality that has not really
experienced depression, likedepression is different than
(18:33):
sadness and some people whenthey say well, I've been sad
before, it's like, oh man, youdon't get it Right.
Yeah, you know, it might behard for them to understand what
depression is.
I think for those who strugglewith it, I think maybe there's a
focus on what's the root cause,like how did I get here?
Like what's causing thedepression?
(18:55):
I understand maybe isolation iscontributing to it, or this,
that or the other.
Or is it a combination ofthings where it's like a
mounting series ofdisappointments that lead them
to this conclusion that thefuture has no hope, that lead
them to this conclusion that thefuture has no hope?
Or is it anxiety, where I'veread this before where someone
(19:15):
who's anxious, they'll take onavoidant behaviors because
they're anxious about socialsettings, they're anxious about
relationships or this, that orthe other, and so that the
anxiety starts to sabotage allof their future plans and
desires that they have, and so,then, that leads to a series of
failures, which then leads todespair and hope for the future.
Yeah, I don't know you want totalk about any of that.
(19:36):
I guess I just unloaded allthat, no, no, that was good,
that was good man.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Yeah, One of the and this I think I shared with you
maybe a year or two ago wherepeople think that talking about
their depression is what helps,and that's not actually what
helps.
What helps is when you shareeven a little bit, is how the
other person responds who you'resharing with.
So one of the complaints maybethat people who are depressed
(20:04):
have is that no one cares aboutme, no one listens to me.
So the undertone to that isI've shared with people just a
little bit of my depression andthe response was oh go, do this.
It wasn't just being in thatmoment as they're experiencing
that level of sadness and lackof motivation.
It was solution focused.
But you can't give a solutionto someone who's just not
(20:26):
motivated or in that space to beable to do that, so they feel
unheard.
So if I'm feeling unheard, I'mnot going to share anymore with
people.
So how do I cope with this?
Right?
So the only thing I can do is,I guess, only share what I want
to share and not the real issue.
So when you do that for so long, it almost becomes confusing
even for them to know what toactually share and what's
(20:47):
actually helping, but it'salways a combination of multiple
things, but one that I think Ineed to highlight here is that,
for those of you who arelistening, if you have
experienced depression, one ofthe things that will keep it
going is continuously talkingabout it.
If you continue to talk aboutit, what you're doing is you're
training your mind to only thinkin the negative, because
(21:09):
everything is in that space ofnegative.
Now you might say, well, how doI share with people if I'm
going to try to cope with thisbetter?
Right, I need to sharesomething about it.
Yeah, but we're not justtalking about when you share
with people.
It's when you go home, whenyou're driving, like the
narrative in your mind thatyou've created is everything is
always going wrong, and thatjust puts you in that constant
(21:30):
cycle of depression.
You say, well, what do I doabout that?
So one common technique that ishelpful and this has actually a
lot of good research supportbehind it is this aspect of
gratefulness Biblical, but alsoresearch-founded.
What things are you gratefulfor?
And that's hard to transitionfrom everything's wrong to what
(21:52):
am I grateful for right?
But again, these are practicesthat you need to work through,
to do for a certain amount oftime to change that mindset.
Again, it depends how longyou've been in the state.
It takes work.
It takes a lot of work.
That's why the role of thecounselor is so important.
Can I make you feel safe andunjudged?
What you're experiencingdoesn't scare me regarding the
(22:15):
feelings that you have.
It doesn't mean that you're abad Christian, right.
So we're rearranging andchanging some beliefs as well.
But also, you know what You'restill here, what's kept you here
?
What's kept you from notgetting to that place of you
know what.
I want to take my life, and Iwant to.
I just don't need to be hereanymore.
(22:35):
And there is a lot of supportbehind this aspect of
gratefulness.
Okay, Can you pick one thingthat you are grateful for and
can that be your new narrative?
I am thankful for X, for thisperson, for my parents, for this
job, for my relationship withChrist, whatever it is, and just
building on that right.
And then you can find otherthings.
(22:55):
What else am I grateful for?
And again, I always harp on thebasics, but they're so
important and it's oftenoverlooked sleep, diet, physical
activity, Like I can't say thatenough, because those are
natural producers of happyhormones.
So, getting good sleep, eatingwell and exercise.
(23:15):
It's going to produce goodhappy hormones for you to feel
good, Epinephrine, adrenalineand so on.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Good, all right.
So you talked about sleep,sleep, diet.
You know, I I've I've read thisbefore somewhere that physical
activity, specifically weightlifting, is a really good remedy
for depression even if it's atemporary one, because obviously
it's not going to cure.
If you have some deep depressionabout something, it's not going
to cure everything.
Like you know, going to the gymand lifting weights isn't gonna
(23:46):
do everything but the act of Iin that.
I think researchers kind ofsaid that they came to the
conclusion that it's the processof when you lift weights.
You have this feeling ofaccomplishment that you're
pushing through and you'reliterally pushing through and
overcoming an obstacle of somesort, that it actually is like a
(24:07):
little bitty mental victory inyour life.
And so not that you shouldn'tlook at exercise as like this is
my cure for depression, becausethen you won't enjoy exercising
, you'll look at it like thepill.
You know that somebody looks ata pill and they either become
dependent on it or they resentit.
So you have to enjoy exercisefor what it is, but it actually
(24:30):
does help you a lot.
I've read that before.
You know which is weightliftingin particular.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Yeah, no, no, you're right.
And again, there's a lot thatyou can go into with all that
the physical activity piece.
But another thing I think thisis really important.
Actually, if you're feelingdepressed, you know, usually we
do a rating, a scaling right.
How depressed do you feel?
So, zero being, I don't feeldepressed at all.
10 feeling I feel miserable andI want to die.
So that's number 10, right.
So let's say, someone feels atan eight.
(24:57):
The goal and I think this is themisconception that people have
is not to get to zero, so to gofrom eight to zero.
First of all, you don't want tohave zero as a goal, you just
want to have less than what youcurrently are experiencing.
So we work down a little bit inscale.
So, okay, you're feeling at aneight right now.
That's pretty high, it'ssignificant.
How do you want to feel at theend of our five, six, seven
(25:21):
sessions?
Like what would be ideal foryou?
And you say, well, I want to bezero.
Well, let's try to picksomething a little bit more
realistic.
How about a five or six?
Does that sound doable?
You say, well, yeah, it's stillnot what I want, but it's
better, but it's better, okay.
So you start working towardsthat.
It's a realistic goal, it'sdoable and you can gauge that
(25:41):
every week leading up to thatbeing the final goal.
But I think where people getmixed up with is they want a
zero and you can't have thatbecause we all experience it at
different levels, and differentsituations may cause you to move
up to an eight or a nine, andother times you'll be at a two
or three and that's okay, kindof this normalizing process,
(26:01):
like it's okay for you to be ata two or a three.
That, yeah, that's okay.
The goal in counseling is can Iget it to feel less than less
than what I'm currentlyexperiencing?
And that provides a sense ofhealing too.
Like, yeah, I'm not feeling it.
Five is still not ideal, but Ifeel better.
Right, and that could be yournew narrative, your new story,
(26:21):
that I'm feeling better.
And to your point you addexercise, you add changing
certain beliefs about it, likeall those things contribute to
you continuing to feel better orto live with it.
And that's okay too, to be ableto live with something, but
it's at a lesser scale, you know, not as painful as it used to
be.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
All right.
So just to wrap it up withmaybe one more question what are
some ways that a Christian cangrow spiritually even when
experiencing depression?
Maybe minimal level?
Severe depression is one thing,but maybe just a minimum level
of depression.
What are some ways a Christiancan still grow in the midst of
that?
Speaker 1 (27:01):
Yeah, well, you heard me mention earlier about
serving others.
Right, and again, that's a fineline because, on one hand, it's
you're serving others and ifthat becomes your goal or your
identity, right, I'm going toserve others.
I'm not focusing on myself.
There's a danger there becauseyou still want to think about
your own healing and you want tobalance that out with also, hey
(27:23):
, you know what, I can alsostill focus on other people.
So there's a balance Need tolearn how to okay, I'm going to
serve others and also need totend to how I'm feeling.
I'm feeling depressed.
Do I need something?
If you can be around otherpeople, not who are necessarily
always positive, but who arerealistic in their view of what
depression can look like, again,people who can just hear you
(27:45):
out.
They're not going to give yousolutions, they're not going to
ignore you, but they're willingto listen, right.
So it's finding those peopleand that's the challenge.
But you can do that when you'reserving other people, because
you start to see different partsof their personality and who
they are and you get to knowthem in different ways.
Right, but don't overdo it onthe service part, because it
could be to your own detriment,where all the focus is on the
(28:08):
people, so much so that when youare by yourself, it's just this
doom and gloom just laying overyou and that becomes your whole
focus again.
So don't use serving people asa distraction.
Just make it a spiritualdiscipline.
I guess a practice in your lifewhere, okay, I can serve here
in this ministry or I can gohelp this couple over here,
(28:29):
whatever the case is.
But I think there's there'ssomething important to be said
that God can minister to you inboth ways when you're serving
others and also after that.
Okay, what does this mean forme as a believer?
Obviously, prayer is a bigthing, because when you're, it's
not that your friends don'twant to be there with you, right
, you might have some reallygood friends, maybe even one
best friend.
And when you're reallystruggling at night and it's not
(28:52):
because your friend wouldn'twant to be there, they just
can't physically, right, you'resleeping, or it's really late at
night, or they have somethinggoing on and you do too, but
prayer becomes a big part ofthat.
That's your way of keeping thatopen dialogue with God, sharing
what those struggles are,reinforcing your faith and
growing in that.
But with that, what would yourecommend, tim, as people who do
(29:15):
struggle with depression.
Maybe there's some charactersin scripture or people in
scripture that, yeah, I meanthey went through some pretty
tough depressive episodes andwhat kept them moving forward.
You know how did they grow intheir faith?
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Well, I so I'm a little different in this regard.
I tend to, I think, personallynot to not to squash your
question, but I tend to be verycareful about just pointing to a
character in scripture.
Job is the obvious example thatpeople will point to.
I think Job is not a greatexample because he went through
(29:50):
a huge traumatic event.
Oh, yeah, Losing everything youknow, that's very different than
someone who struggles with,like a chronic depression for
years and years on end.
That's a good point.
I just I just don't know ifthere's a character in scripture
that isn't as a good example ofof someone who struggles with
prolonged depression.
So I don't want to just likeput a bandaid on the situation
(30:14):
to say, well, like this personin the Bible struggled with
depression.
Are there biblical principles?
Yeah, so if we understanddepression as the ability or the
inability to perceive apositive future, I think in
general the principle inscripture is to we fix our eyes
(30:35):
on the hope of a future life.
I want to be careful because ifsomeone has suicidal ideations
or something like that, that canbe kind of tempting to say,
well, look, why don't I justtake myself out of this life and
into the next?
So I want to caution againstthat.
But our myself out of this lifeand into the next, so I want to
(30:55):
caution against that.
But a lot of times, like we canbecome sad and depressed even
in this life, when ourexpectations are fixed on
something here and thoseexpectations aren't met and then
we begin to despair because webegin to conclude that this life
will never deliver thatexpectation that I've had, and
so I've become very sad anddepressed because of that.
(31:18):
I think I like what you said afew minutes ago about well,
you're still here, you know,you're still kicking, you're
still drawing breath and thereis some sort of purpose that God
has for you still on thisplanet.
If you are a Christian, youreternal hope is secure in Christ
.
But again, we're talking aboutpeople who maybe struggle to
(31:40):
understand that or struggle tofeel that God loves them.
But if you can say, look,you're still breathing, you're
still drawing breath and God hassome sort of purpose for you
here and understanding like orfinding what that purpose is is
going to be valuable and goingto be life giving to you.
So trying to reorient them tobe future oriented again,
(32:04):
instead of fixating on thepresent moment of grief or other
disappointment, sadness, momentof grief or other
disappointment, sadness tryingto fix on some sort of new
mission, new goal, sort of new,almost new chapter in life and
finding the purpose that Godwould maybe have for them here I
know that's a vague answerbecause I'm not slapping.
(32:26):
You know some Bible verses onthat, but you know there's lots
of Psalms where thesalmist isstruggling with lots of sadness
and things like that, but again,like we don't know if that's
depression.
We know it's sadness but wedon't know if it's depression,
because depression is a verywe're talking about very
something very specific wherethe brain sort of gets locked
(32:47):
into fixating on the negative.
You know, I found even hearingthe testimonies of people who
they take up some sort of newthing in the kingdom.
They take up some sort of new,like you mentioned, serving
other people or something likethat, and it gives them just a
(33:07):
new sense of purpose in life.
So I think that's on thepositive side, trying to do
something like that.
On the negative side and thisgoes for christians we've got to
do I hate saying the word dobetter.
We've got to figure out a wayto stop stigmatizing people who
are in different stages of life.
I think that's where a lot ofdepression comes from with
(33:29):
people is that feeling ofisolation.
I I've said this before thatthere's this implicit formula in
evangelicalism, like there'sthis formulaic life within
evangelicalism and if yourindividual life doesn't fit that
formula, it's almost like thechurch doesn't know what to do
with you.
Like churches don't know whatto do with it.
They don't have, they don'tknow what to do with older
(33:49):
singles, they don't know a lotof times what to do with
divorcees, or they'll have likea little class, like oh, I'll
put all the divorce people inthis class, like, oh yeah,
that's not awkward, they.
They just, let's say, someonewho's whose children all walk
away from the Lord, or like it'san elderly person who shut in
(34:09):
in their home and the churchdoes a better job, I think, with
elderly shut-ins than they dowith maybe older singles or
divorced people or something.
But there's just thesedifferent pockets of individuals
who go through life and life isharder for them and they can be
more, they can be easilydepressed because of that.
Because in the Christian circlesagain, if your life doesn't
(34:32):
match that formula married withkids, live in the suburban
lifestyle, whatever that is youcan easily feel socially
isolated and that's, I think,the kicker, is the social
isolation that comes from yourlife not matching with the
majority of evangelicalChristians experience, and that
(34:52):
feeling can can be really reallydetrimental and I just think
that a lot of uh forevangelicals out there, they.
I think we really just got tostep back and kind of think
about what, like how we wereeven programming our churches,
like I'll be programming ourchurches to satisfy, to meet the
formula, rather thanrecognizing that the church is
(35:12):
full of a lot of broken peopleuh, that all come from all walks
of life.
I think for the christian who'smaybe struggling in those
circles, like find a ministrywhere you don't feel like you're
isolated or that you're kind oflike segmented off from the
church, like this is the thingwith, like, divorcees and single
people, as I've mentioned.
(35:33):
They don't want to be inclasses that are for divorcees
and singles Right, like that's.
I mean, that's like giving theman ugly Christmas sweater and
telling them to wear it everySunday.
Right, that's not.
That's not my joke.
That's Doug Wilson's joke, okay, but yeah, that's now.
That's not my joke.
That's doug wilson's joke, okay, but yeah, it's like that.
(35:53):
It's like, man, I'm reallystruggling with singleness, or
I'm really struggling with theregret from divorce.
Hey, here's an idea we got thisclass for people just like you,
and so when you go to thatclass, everyone's gonna know
that you have the same problemtoo, it's just horrible.
It's just a horrible thing likethat's such a good um and it's
only, it's just only somethingthat awkward evangelicals can
come up with.
(36:13):
I would say just just avoidthat stuff, don't, don't, don't
give into the expectations thatyou have to.
You have to do that, you know,um, and some ways stand up for
yourself in church, yeah, butanyway.
Okay, I'm going on for a longtime about that, but no, that's
good, that's good.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
Yeah, I like the point that you made just about
not using people in scripture totry to define something.
That's an ongoing problem herein the present modern church.
But still, even as youmentioned the Psalms, just we
have a sense of connection withthat, because we understand
those feelings of sadness orbroken, or feeling alone or
(36:57):
sought after right For, maybenot necessarily for being killed
, but just the aspect of havingall those very difficult
emotions that people have,emotions that people have.
And I do just want to referback to this aspect of
journaling and being grateful,seeking things that you can be
grateful for, because that putsyou in the present and it makes
you just become very aware okay,what's happening right now that
(37:21):
I can be grateful and you willfind something is just getting
through that initial block of,well, there's nothing, okay,
let's just sit here with it andmaybe something will come up.
And I really do encourage theclient to just sit there with
even in that silence of, okay,we'll find something, but
letting them come up withsomething that they're grateful
for.
I could suggest things, butit's always best for them to
(37:43):
come up with those things Likewhat pops into your mind when
you think about something thatyou're grateful for and really
journaling and that becomes yournew narrative, you start
building on that Along with okay, I talked about lack of
motivation.
The lack of motivation really issaying that I haven't chosen
something to be disciplined with.
Now I know that doesn't soundairing in a sense, but really
(38:05):
what we're trying to move themto is to take some small action
steps, and the more motivated aclient is to get out of that
depressive state, the morewilling they'll be to take those
little steps.
Again, if it's too big of astep, then that's just going to
put them back into thatdepressive state.
But if it's something that theycan see themselves doing again,
something that they come upwith, you can build on that very
(38:26):
easily and, with some time, getthem out of state at least to
lower right.
We don't want to zero, but wewant less than what you're
currently experiencing.
Two to three points lower isusually pretty good, but yeah,
one thing I I forgot to mention.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
And then we need to get to your book recommendation.
Um, I would think, I think theconcept of redemption might help
.
But this is just me as a umlayman, you know, with
theologian talking perhaps likeencouraging someone to dream
about, to, to dream about howthe lord might redeem their
(38:59):
situation.
So I think if you can getsomeone to believe that, like,
the lord will redeem all thingsnot to put the trite, you know,
band-aid on on it, like, oh, youknow, all things work together
for good to them who love God,to them who call her according
to his purpose, it's true.
So but get someone to tounderstand the Lord is going to
(39:19):
redeem.
When you get to the end of yourlife, the Lord will redeem, he
can redeem everything in yourlife.
So, if that's true, even thoughyou don't feel it right now, is
maybe trying to get them to havethe freedom to dream about how
the Lord can redeem thedisappointments in their past.
(39:40):
Because if they haven't, ifthey're having a hard time
imagining a positive future,maybe the the permission to
dream about how the Lord mightredeem some things in their past
and help them put new meaningon the things that they suffered
through, like maybe they justdon't understand why they lost
their parents or just a lovedone, lost their child, lost a
(40:03):
friend, or they don't understandwhy they went through major
financial collapse or healthissues or loneliness or whatever
it is, and maybe they'reblaming themselves for it.
Maybe it's like it didn'thappen to me.
I did it and I've ruined mylife, you know.
I think the having thepermission to dream about how
God might redeem their life cancan help.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
Yeah, no, that's a great suggestion, tim.
I think people who arelistening will benefit from that
, seeing there's always aredemptive piece to that story,
and that's part of looking forthat.
What am I grateful for?
Well, here's the part that'sbeing renewed or that's being
changed in me as I go throughthis stage of life.
So, yeah, great recommendation.
(40:46):
Along with that, just wanted togive a quick recommendation for
a book.
This one's actually a reallygood, smaller book, but very
practical.
It's called Learn Hopefulnessand it says the Power of
Positivity to OvercomeDepression, dan Tomasulo, dr Dan
Tomasulo, and one of the thingsthat he emphasized, obviously
(41:08):
there's this aspect of well, howcan I be hopeful in a hopeless
situation?
Right, a lot of it is justreorienting the mind to this
aspect of gratefulness.
I think it even talks about inthere, about putting down a list
of things that you're gratefulfor, along with the goal being
I'm trying to establish a senseof hope even in the midst of a
very dark, despairing situation.
(41:29):
So there's a lot of practices.
It has a lot of good exercisesfor you to do.
It's very strengths-based.
So the positivity piece is notjust think positive.
It's more so focused on whatstrengths do you have that can
contribute to developing ahopeful attitude towards the
current situation.
Right, we all have strengthsand weaknesses, so it's really
about exploring what are somestrengths that you have in where
(41:52):
you currently are and can youbuild on those things right?
So maybe you don't have thestrength of, I don't know,
planning ahead of time, butyou're really good at thinking
big picture right and you getpeople to fill out the details,
but focusing on the things thatyou have that are strengths and
(42:13):
how can those strengths help youin this current situation that
you're in so very, very helpfulbook.
So I recommend that and also ourvery own, brian Funderburg.
He said he read a book and heasked me to share this with you
guys as well Called Feeling Goodby David Burns.
It's a CBT book.
We've been talking about CBTand how effective that is, so I
(42:35):
assumed that it would be a goodbook to read.
If you give it a bad review,I'll let Brian know.
And he said this is fine.
He told me I could use that asa joke, so keep me posted.
Thank you for tuning in.
Hopefully this was helpful.
We know a lot of peoplestruggle with anxiety,
depression.
So, yeah, hopefully thesecouple of episodes have been of
(42:57):
help to you.
So thanks for tuning in guys.
Follow us on Instagram and onour Apple podcast, and we will
catch up with you next time.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!