Ep. 46 - The Psychology of Faith: Unmasking False Teachers

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Explore the intriguing interplay between faith and psychology in this episode, where we shine a light on the nuances of church leadership and the sometimes deceptive practices of false teachers. A riveting discussion with Ricardo Stacy from the Theosys Podcast uncovers the psychological tricks and manipulative methods that some church leaders utilize to captivate their audiences. 

Listeners are encouraged to examine their relationships with faith in a broader context, considering how experiences and attachment styles may influence their perceptions of God. Relationships within the church can sometimes manifest as sources of trauma when expectations and teachings become misaligned with personal beliefs. Our explorations spark necessary discussions surrounding discernment, urging you to question teachings that may promote misleading narratives. 

As we differentiate between false teachings and core doctrinal truths, you'll gain new insights into how to recognize and navigate these complexities within your faith journey. With real-life examples and an emphasis on shared accountability amongst believers, this episode inspires a proactive approach toward understanding faith. 

Join us in redefining the conversation around spirituality, challenging conventional views, and striving for deeper, healthier connections both with God and within his church community. Don't forget to share your thoughts, subscribe, and leave a review to join this enlightening journey!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Well, all right, everyone, welcome back to the
Psych and Theopodcast.
This has been some excitingtimes here.
Today, we are going to besharing a second special episode
with a good friend of ours,ricardo Stacy, and he has a
podcast called Theosis Podcast,and we went on his show and we
talked about church leadership,false teachers and the

(00:26):
psychological tricks or methodsthat they use to entertain and
keep the audience that they do.
So it was a really good episode.
We talked about a lot ofdifferent things, but that was
kind of the core of that podcastepisode.
So I hope that you guys enjoy itand before you guys do, as
always, we thank you for tuninginto the podcast, for
subscribing to the podcast, alsowanted hope that you guys enjoy
it and, before you guys do, asalways, we thank you for tuning
into the podcast, forsubscribing to the podcast.

(00:48):
Also wanted to let you knowthat we're on Instagram.
You can find us at psychunderscore and underscore Theo,
and leave us a review, leavesome comments, provide feedback,
anything.
We really want to againcontinue to tailor the episodes
that we discuss to you guys whoare listening and recommending
those episodes.
We have a number of popularones that we're going to touch

(01:09):
on in the following weeks andsome new ones that are going to
be quite exciting, as you guyshave demonstrated some levels of
excitement for these upcomingtopics, so I hope you guys enjoy
.
Thank you for tuning in andenjoy the show.
So we're both like baby podcastsyeah we started in uh in

(01:30):
february last year.
Oh nice, we're coming up on theone year sweet one year here.

Speaker 2 (01:36):
What do you guys have planned for the anniversary
special episode, or anything?

Speaker 1 (01:39):
yeah, yeah, we're thinking about it.
I have to uh, oh, there we goabout what we want that to look
like, and so on.

Speaker 3 (01:45):
Hey Tim, hey guys, How's it going?
Hey, can you hear me?

Speaker 2 (01:48):
Yeah, what inspired you guys to start your podcast?

Speaker 1 (01:51):
Yeah, well, we talked a while back.
I had this idea of tacklingcultural issues from a
psychological and theologicalperspective and because they
often were seen as notcompatible or not being able to
work with each other.
Yeah, so I'm a licensedprofessional counselor so I
wanted to take care of thatpiece.
But I needed a theology guy anda lot of people recommended Tim

(02:14):
to me and we had never met.
Oh yeah, so Tim and I linked upand we talked over some coffee,
gave it some thought, prayedabout it and here we are Psych
and Theology Nice, nice, yeah,thought, read about it and here
we are, so I can feel, nice,nice, yeah, I love that concept.

Speaker 2 (02:28):
Um, I mean, yeah, those are two things that I've
always been, um, pretty obsessedwith.
Like, I'm a huge JordanPeterson fan, so that's like,
you know psychology and you knowhe gets into a lot of religious
stuff as well, so, yeah, that'sa good combination.
But, yeah, that is it's sort oflike the age-old science versus
god type thing, right.
So how do you guys, like Iguess, um reconcile that, or is

(02:52):
it just like a no-brainer tolike yeah they're, they're
compatible yeah, there's.

Speaker 1 (02:57):
I mean, there's some issues that we are both able to
to touch on.
But I think we we went througha a couple of series or episodes
where I would the whole episodewould be focused on something
theological or biblical orchurch oriented and tim would
handle that.
Now we're asking questions.
And then there's others wherewe just do mental health

(03:17):
psychology and then he would askme questions.
But there are some episodeswhere we there's just a lot of
overlap, where both they wouldcontribute to it.
It's like today, even as, eventhough we're talking about false
teachers and and false teaching, there's a lot of personality
stuff that comes into that too.
You know like who who pursuesthese things, who who teaches
those things.
So we'll get into a little bitabout that, but yeah for sure,

(03:41):
yeah, so cool.

Speaker 2 (03:43):
Yeah, I've always I don't know the whole.
Yeah, like science and god notmixing, like, yeah, it's
something that, because Iremember, um, I have an uncle
down in mexico who, uh, he's apsychologist.
Um, yeah, I think he was atherapist for a long time and
then now he's like the head ofthe I don't know psychology um
section at a university and umyeah, but so.

(04:07):
So he's always been, you know,like, oh, he's, he's a
psychologist, right, he's likethe smart, educated uncle.
But uh, he, he always used totell me ghost stories, like
supernatural things that wouldhappen to him.
And so I remember, like in theback of my head ever since I was
a little kid, I was always like, okay, yeah, so he, he,
definitely he believes in allthat stuff.
Like he's not, like these arepersonal experiences that he had

(04:27):
, right, like one time he hadlike this like skeleton lady
thing jump on top of him and helike pushed her off and then she
disappeared, um, and you know,he talks about like yeah, this
is something that happened.
Like I didn't make it up, henever did drugs, um, yeah, it's
just something that happened.
But he's also a psychologist,so it's kind of like you know,
how do you, how do you reconcilethose things?

Speaker 3 (04:49):
But it is what it is.
We, we, we just did an episodelast night with another podcast
asking us some of thosequestions when did where did the
bifurcation happen betweenpsychology and theology, or, you
know, mind and spirit, I mightsay?
So we went into that a littlebit and as far as the

(05:10):
Enlightenment and how thesciences took off in one
direction with rationalism andempiricism and a lot of
authority got shifted into thoseschools of thought separated or
divorced from any theologicalframework, but we talked about
how your worldview can, yourworldview really influences that

(05:30):
, and by worldview I mean yourpresuppositions about reality.
So if someone is not open tothe supernatural like they have
a worldview of atheism,materialism, naturalism, of
atheism, materialism, naturalismthey maybe nothing outside of
some sort of supernaturalencounter would convince them.

(05:51):
Otherwise, you know, somebodymight tell them hey, I saw
something crazy yeah and theymight say oh well, that was the
cereal you ate the night beforeyou know, right, but if you have
a worldview that that actuallyopen to those things, then you
are more likely to accepttestimonies of what happens, and
we talked about how those youknow.

(06:11):
We need to conclude you knowsomething supernatural is
occurring.
You need multiple lines ofevidence.
You know there's a big gapbetween what you can know and
what you can prove.
So I can.
I could know something that Icould never prove to you.
Yeah, there's things that I knowthat I can never prove to you.
Yeah and uh.
Same thing goes withsupernatural.

(06:32):
You could have a supernaturalexperience where you're like,
yeah, I know that was real, thatwasn't fake, but it's hard, be
hard for me to prove that to you.
But then there's other timeswhere you have multiple lines of
evidence where two or morepeople experience the same thing
, and the probability of thatbeing just the pepperoni pizza
you know that we ate is prettylow.

Speaker 2 (06:54):
Yeah, it becomes undeniable, right, it's like,
yeah, it all.
It becomes more absurd to clingon to.
No, there's a scientificexplanation for it, there is no
supernatural scientificexplanation for it, there is no
supernatural like it.
Yeah, that that's kind of how Iam now like with my faith, um,
even though, like you know, Imay have still doubts and and
question things, but, like Iknow, I could never go back to

(07:14):
to being an atheist because thatto me is just like it's just
too absurd.
Um, you know, I mean, like I was, I was raised cath Catholic and
now I'm back as a practicingCatholic, but for a long time,
yeah, I was an atheist oragnostic, like, oh, who knows,
maybe there is a God out theresomewhere, but he doesn't care

(07:35):
about us, he just created us andleft us alone, kind of thing.
But anyways, yeah, I can't goback to that whole atheist
denial thing because it to meit's just more absurd, like I'd
rather be a crazy religious nutthan, yeah, deny it, because to
me there's just no way.
Like, yeah, how are we here?

(07:56):
There's just, we didn't just,you know, come out of nothing
and, like you know, a series ofaccidents.
I guess that's one thing toothat I kind of still have an
issue with like um, like withevolution, even though you know
there's like obviously verycompelling arguments for it.
But I'm just like there's no waythat you know, like these

(08:18):
things that you see, likecertain birds or whatever, like
that they develop, you know,like, oh, this bird it evolved
to look like you know it haseyes on its wings and it scares
off predators.
Like that didn't happen byaccident.
Come on, like that's just moreabsurd, that oh, it was just a
series of accidents and you knowthey kept reproducing until you
know you have that, that finalproduct like I don't know.

(08:39):
To me that just it's bizarre.

Speaker 1 (08:41):
How long were you in that?
We're in that space for ricardobeing like atheist being an
atheist um, man, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (08:48):
I think it started pretty early on.
Um, I would say, maybe likearound 15, 15 years, something I
don't know.

Speaker 1 (08:59):
Maybe yeah was that I said wow, so you're a teenager
when it started happening.

Speaker 2 (09:04):
Well, I think I don't know, because I I think I had
my first communion andconfirmation.
I was like eight years old umand I was already like, I had
heavy doubts already at thatpoint and, um, yeah, and then,
yeah, as a teenager, I was, yeah, that's when I, you, I entered
that whole edgy teenager kind ofstage of life and I was like

(09:27):
there's no God.
And so, um, yeah, that thathappened like around yeah, like
12, 13 years old, um, and then,you know, over time, I just I
kind of it's more like I lostthat passion for the atheist
thing, like I just kind ofdidn't care anymore, like, and
regardless if there is a god ornot, like I don't really care.
Um, and then, yeah, when I waslike in my early 20s, I had, uh,

(09:52):
some experiences that you know,like what we're saying, like
something you live through thatyou can't really deny, and yeah
then, ever since then, since myearly 20s um, yeah, just like
having more and more interestand an openness to it, and um,
yeah, now I'm 32 and, yeah, itwas last december or december of

(10:14):
2023 that I started going backto the catholic church, so I
must have been 31, um, so, yeah,kind of kind of a long journey,
I guess.
Um, but, yeah, so you guys, youboth work at a university,
right, yeah, okay, yeah, soyou're sam.
Are you like the head of thepsychology, or what exactly is

(10:36):
your position?

Speaker 1 (10:37):
no, I wish, I wish.
No, actually I'm a, I'm acounselor there for our students
, so we work in a counselingdepartment, so I counsel
students, I run a couple ofgroups, do some psychoeducation
stuff, but yeah, so that's kindof my role.
I teach some psychology coursesas well.
Okay, nice, so that's kind ofmy role.
Tim is also a teacher, tim.

(10:59):
I don't know if you want to.

Speaker 3 (11:00):
Yeah, I'm an adjunct professor in the College of Arts
and Sciences philosophydepartment.
I mostly teach ethics orintroductory ethics.
Sometimes I'll teach in Schoolof Divinity.
So I teach theology andphilosophy topics and then I
also work in the administrativeside in a division called the

(11:21):
Office of Spiritual Development.
So we do all things you knowspiritual life on campus.

Speaker 2 (11:25):
Nice.

Speaker 3 (11:26):
So I worked there and I, I train.
I mainly train students on howto travel and be good travelers,
overseas cultural intelligence,both with world religions and
with cultural customs and taboosand things like that.
So a lot of traveling for my,my job.

Speaker 2 (11:42):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 3 (11:43):
Nice.

Speaker 2 (11:44):
Yeah, yeah, what so?
Oh sweet, a lot of travelingfor my, my job.

Speaker 3 (11:50):
Oh yeah, nice, yeah, yeah, what, uh, what's your
favorite?

Speaker 2 (11:53):
place you've been to.
Oh man, uh, I love turkey,turkey turkey's just a.

Speaker 3 (11:54):
It's a.
It's a great place.
I don't know if I live there,but I do.
I do love visiting there.
Costa rica as well.
Costa rica's got a specialplace in my heart.

Speaker 2 (12:02):
Nice, yeah, yeah, yeah um, yeah, I don't know.
I just I wanted to to get thatin real quick because, yeah, I
saw, uh on instagram, you guyshave like little um like
introductions of yourselves andI think you mentioned that.
But yeah, I just wanted totouch on that, make sure we had
that in there.
Um, but yeah, I love that wholelike um like how our

(12:25):
psychological, um, I guess,personalities affect our
perception of god and religion.
I think, sam, you've beenuploading some videos about that
, right, like how you're like ifyou're um, what is it your
attachment style?
Right like if you're avoidance,like how that like avoidance or
what is it secure attachment,like how all that affects your

(12:46):
perception of God.

Speaker 1 (12:47):
Yeah, yeah, there was actually, it was going to be an
area of study that was going tofocus on.
It was attachment style and asyou start kind of digging into
that aspect, there's a lot ofcorrelation to how we relate to
God.
So that talked about how yourearly relationships, or even
relations within the church, canshape your, your, view of god.

(13:08):
Um, so, for someone who isanxiously attached to people in
their, in their life, who maybeare seeking, uh, reaffirmation
or they're seeking, um,acceptance, they they start to
behave in people pleasing waysand those same people who have
that attachment style transferthat over to relationship with

(13:28):
God, where they are veryperformance oriented and
performance space and if theydon't do something right, they
feel like God's kind of like oh,you messed up again, you know
you're not worthy of me, and sothey feel very unworthy, right?
So those those relationshipsshow up in your relationship
with God.
And same thing, you know, as youwere mentioning, kind of the

(13:49):
how you kind of moved away fromyour faith for a while.
Yeah, like that would besomeone who maybe would have an
avoidant attachment style wheremaybe they were hurt by someone
or they feel like they can'ttrust anyone, so they kind of
transfer that over to therelationship with God, because
the people who hurt them were inchurch, right, anyone.
So they kind of transfer thatover to the relationship with
God because the people who hurtthem were in church, right.
So maybe it was a pastor, aleader, someone who called
themselves a Christian and andjust kind of said something or

(14:11):
hurt you in some way.
So we start to well, becausethey're connected to church,
then it must be God's fault orit must be connected to God in
some way, right, they becomeavoidance, uh, with God.
Wow, that's so interesting.
A lot of cool stuff, yeah yeah,tim.

Speaker 2 (14:24):
Have you noticed anything like how your
personality or attachment stylesaffect your faith?

Speaker 3 (14:30):
yeah, you know, I grew up in a pretty conservative
environment.
Um, those who are listening andknow what I mean by independent
fundamentalist, uh, that's, Igrew up in that kind of
environment in the Midwest andthat's a very, very strict
environment where God is a lotof times portrayed as a really

(14:51):
harsh, angry figure, not reallyloving, um, and the culture
around that is very legalisticand shame based culture.
So, uh, as I grew up, um, thatwas my understanding of god and,
um, my, I think my attitudereally affected me a lot.
You know, I struggled to, um, Icould understand intellectually

(15:14):
the love of god or I couldunderstand intellectually the,
the concept of god as father,but experientially or
emotionally understanding that,allowing that to affect my, my
being, but not just, not justlike me, but how I treat or or
interact with other people.
That took a long, long time towork out of me and I, you know,

(15:35):
I, I think, as, as all of us, itstill affects me even today.
You know, I find myself, eveneven in these days, having to
push back against.
You know, those childhood kindof memories and concepts, uh, so
, um, yeah, I mean that's, thosewho grew up in those ultra
conservative environments canoften feel that like I'm never

(15:57):
doing anything right and god'snever pleased with me.
Uh, and a lot of judgment, ohyeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So there's those kind of peopleand I myself, you know it's,
they knew, they always knew theright thing to do, like we, we
don't do this, we do this, wedon't do this, do this and so
their lifestyles are veryusually organized and, uh, put

(16:18):
together, but on the insidethey're in turmoil or or they
completely snap and they go offthe deep end.
Uh, whereas someone who wasn'tthat you know, they they got
sort of sown their wild oatswhen they were younger.
But then someone who comes outof a culture of this shame-based
legalism can really snap and gooff the deep end yeah, um, I

(16:40):
don't think that was a hugething for me.

Speaker 2 (16:42):
I mean, I do remember , like, like, uh, being a kid
and when I, when I lived down inmexico, we had a neighbor who
she was super catholic, very,very, um, yeah, devout in her
faith, would go to church everyday.
And I remember one day I wasjust playing with I had these
little toys, like I think theywere pokemon toys, and uh, yeah,

(17:04):
she saw them and she pickedthem.
She's like, oh, yeah, these arethe pokemon I've been hearing
about.
Yeah, these are demonic.
And she's like, look, look,look here.
And she was like pointing atthe ears of one of these figures
that I had and she's like, look, they're like demonic horns,
they're just ears, they're justears on this little figure.
So, um, yeah, I, I kind of getthat whole like judgmental thing

(17:26):
.
Um, and then, like, even before, with this same neighbor that I
had, uh, I remember one time Ithink I was, it was gonna be
like my fifth birthday orsomething, and then, uh, yeah, I
was telling her about I'm like,oh, it's gonna be my birthday
tomorrow.
And she's like, yeah, godwilling, you know, it's just
like a phrase, common phrase,and then I remember I was what
do you mean?
God willing, it is going to bemy birthday, like it just is.

(17:48):
And so I think, yeah, from ayoung age I just I had this
issue of I think it was tiedinto like having an issue with
authority.
And yeah, I just kind of likelike who is this God guy that
has control over my life and,you know, I want to live my life
my way, and who is he to to?
you know, say that I can't enjoypokemon kind of thing you know

(18:11):
so yeah, ever since I was reallylittle, I always had that, that
mentality, um, and yeah, thiswhole, yeah, this whole thing
about like how your attachmentstyle and your upbringing can
affect your faith.
That's so fascinating.
I need to, I need to look intothat.
I'm honestly not too sure whatmy attachment style is, because
you know there's like thesetests you can take online and it

(18:33):
seems like whenever I take them, like I'll get different
answers, or or they're so longthat I don't even want to finish
taking them.
So, yeah, I'm not sure, butyeah for sure I do see there's
that link right between, like,our earthly self and, I guess
you know, our heavenly self.
You can call it our connectionto God.
And I've noticed that recentlywith because with myself, like I

(18:56):
was pretty much raised by asingle mother.
My whole life I didn't have mydad, and I can see that
affecting my faith too, becauseyou know, with God the father
already as it is, he's like sucha like I don't know this alien
vague thing that I don't reallyunderstand.
But then, even with Jesus youknow as much as like he's human,

(19:18):
right, he's God in the flesh.
But even like with that like Ijust I've always had this
strange issue with, I guess,connecting with other men and
especially like fatherly figures.
I've always had an issue withthat.
So, yeah, I don't know, justlike, when it comes to jesus, I
guess there is sort of thatfeeling of like rejection maybe,

(19:39):
like like, oh, I don't thinkjesus would like me, kind of on
a personal level, um, and, yeah,I I do because I'm catholic, um
, you know the virgin mary andI'm mexican, so you know the la
virgen de guadalupe.
She's huge in our, in ourculture, and so it's.
It's interesting because I cansee that, like, I feel like I

(20:00):
have more of like a connectionthrough jesus or to jesus
through her, um, and I think itis kind of like that whole
because I'm familiar with moreof like a motherly figure, right
, a motherly love.
That's something that I'mfamiliar with.
That's what I grew up with, um,you know, being raised by my
mother.
So, yeah, I can see that havingan effect on my faith.
So, um, yeah, I don't know ifthat's like necessarily like a

(20:23):
good or a bad thing, I don'tknow, but yeah, just something
that I noticed which isinteresting.

Speaker 1 (20:29):
I appreciate you sharing that record.
I think you know, as we talkabout the things that are taught
in church, you know and Timkind of alluded to this earlier
is that what we're taught aboutGod and how he meets our needs
and how he's there for us andyou know who he is in our lives,
like those things.

(20:50):
There's a lot of things likethat that are taught from the
pulpit, that are they'resometimes communicated too much
on one side or the other, right.
So on one hand there's churchesthat teach, you know, god is
righteous, justice and willbring judgment when it's not,
but that's all they teach.
That's just one side or oneaspect of God's character.

(21:11):
Then you also have the otherside that highly emphasizes love
, grace and mercy but forgetsthat there's also judgment.
Right, and that shapes the waythat we view God.
Right.
So those who are grew up in moreconservative, fundamentalist
churches kind of have this viewof God of only a punisher or
only a justice seeker, right.

(21:32):
And there's other ones thatjust see him as kind and loving
and will never send anyone tohell, type of thing.
Right, and, tim, you couldspeak more to that.
Just kind of what you've seenin what churches teach.
But there's a lot ofcorrelation with that.
As we're kind of discussing now, is that what we're taught
about God in the church startsto shape how we relate to God.

(21:52):
You know, and just the aspectthat you shared about growing up
without a father yeah, it'shard to make that connection of
someone who's going to establishdiscipline or justice right
that when you don't know whatthat actually looks like or what
a healthy version of that lookslike, right.
You know you only have whatyour mom's shown you, so it's
easier to connect to those othercharacteristics of god that

(22:14):
show that maybe love andkindness and grace that your
mother showed you.

Speaker 3 (22:18):
Right, right, right, right, tim, if you wanted to add
to that yeah, I'd say that thepeople who grew up in the
conservative environments.
It's easy to serve God out offear and out of duty, not out of
love.
So I do things because I don'twant God to punish me.
And I do things because, well,god said to do it, not

(22:39):
necessarily because I want to doit, or I want to do it because
I don't want to get punishedyeah, yeah, because I want to do
it.
Or I want to do it because Idon't want to get punished, yeah
, yeah.
And so it's hard for people inthat environment to really
understand like a love of God,that's safe.
Safe to be loved by God and torelate to him as a loving parent

(23:02):
.
So I've seen so many uh peopleI've grown up with struggle with
that you know whether they sayit or not.
You know you can see it.

Speaker 2 (23:11):
I struggle with that, yeah yeah, that's interesting
that, yeah, you can see thatwithin yourself.
But it's good that you had theyeah, I guess that I don't know
like initiative within yourselfto um, yeah, like, analyze it
and kind of, um, you know,deconstruct it and, and I guess,
make it a more like healthy, Iguess a healthy relationship
right with with your faith.

(23:31):
Um, yeah, because I mean a lotof people who come from that
background, yeah, they just,like you said, they go off the
deep end, right, and theytotally sever.
They're like, nah, I don't wantany part of that.
You know, they're just justclosed minded people, judgmental
people, and yeah, the way I seeit, it's like, yeah, with our

(23:52):
faith, it's we need to make itsomething that people, yeah,
want to participate in.
Right, they want it, not justbecause, yeah, they're afraid or
they feel like, oh, if I'm nota part of this community, then
I'll be judged by my peers.
It's like, no, it should besomething that people choose
Right.
And yeah, I think that's that'sall wrapped into.

(24:12):
I guess the false teachings,right, that's what we're here to
talk about.
Yeah, it's discernment, right,I feel like discernment is
really like at the, at the heartof it.
How do we determine right,false teachings and what's true.
Um, yeah, because a big part ofit, right it's, it's it's

(24:33):
ourselves, uh, and we need toadhere to an authority.
But, yeah, sometimes we need tolike navigate through that.
So, um, yeah, just in general,um, and I I know you guys you
released another episode on yourpodcast about false teachings.
I was listening to that lastnight.
You guys covered someinteresting ground there.
But, yeah, in general, yeah,what's your take on false

(24:56):
teachings?

Speaker 3 (24:58):
Okay, all right.
So this question about falseteaching is more biblical and
theological than it ispsychological, but I think where
Sam can come in is speaking tothe power of manipulation and
what can happen to people thatmaybe are falling prey to false

(25:19):
teaching.
So you know, you referenced theepisode that we did in our
podcast and thanks for uhlistening to that, uh, I guess,
to your listeners.
Go and download that podcast ifthey want.
Let's plug for psych and theo.
Um, I think you know, to getinto this subject, we have to
define what we mean, and a lotof what I'll say here is what we

(25:39):
say in that episode, but I'msure you'll take it in some
unique directions.
But let's define, guess,initially, what we mean by false
teaching.
I think a helpful division herewould be between false teaching
and the word heresy.
Heresy is a term that refers tothe denial or the rejection of

(26:03):
core theological truths.
So a heretic is someone whoteaches something that is
contrary to the historicorthodox christian faith.
This would be someone who fallsyour.
So, uh, ricardo, you're acatholic or protestants.
So a heretic would not besomeone who's a Catholic or a

(26:24):
Protestant.
It would be someone who denies,like core fundamental doctrines
Catholics and Protestants, both, along with Eastern Orthodox.

Speaker 2 (26:31):
So a Mormon, yeah yeah, yeah, it'd be like a.

Speaker 3 (26:34):
Mormon?
Yeah, it's because Catholics,eastern Orthodox, protestants,
all affirm the historic creedsof the faith, like the Nicene
Creed, the Apostles' Creed.
We all have that shared commontradition and those core
doctrines about the deity ofChrist, the God, the Father, the
Holy Spirit, the death andresurrection of Jesus, the

(27:03):
second coming, these kinds ofcore doctrines we share.
Someone who's a heretic woulddeny one of those fundamental
doctrines.
A mormon, for instance, woulddeny the full deity of jesus
christ.
They are non-trinitarian, youknow, so they don't believe in
the father, son and holy spiritas co-equal, co-eternal persons
in the godhead, right jesus.
Jesus is a created being.
In mormonism, joseph'switnesses would be a similar
thing.

(27:23):
Um, and there's lots ofdifferent offshoots of uh groups
like that.
So a hair a heretic and theclassical sense of the word
would be someone who deniesthose core doctrines.
A false teacher could be aheretic in that they could be
teaching those things, but afalse teacher could also be
teaching things that areextremely destructive.

(27:44):
They could be teaching thingsthat are false, as in it's a
different gospel, and sotherefore it might be, it might
be heresy, or they might beteaching things that are demonic
and very, very deceptive.
So it's just kind of helpful todistinguish those two terms.
Like a heretic, we kind of knowexactly what that, what that is

(28:04):
, but a false teacher.
Someone could be a falseteacher and a heretic.
But someone could be a falseteacher in the sense of they're
they're not, even, they're notaware that they're teaching
something that's, uh,problematic you know it could be
someone who's a christian who'speddling in a doctrine or some
sort of false doctrine that umlater, if you show them, hey,

(28:25):
this is wrong, they'll repentfrom that and turn the other way
.
So we just want to be carefulhow we throw out the when we
label people false teachers.
We got to kind of be carefulhow we define our terms.
So think of false teaching andheresy as like a Venn diagram.

Speaker 2 (28:43):
False teaching is like a bigger circle.
Heretics is a particular typeof false teaching and heresy is
like a Venn diagram Falseteaching is like a bigger circle
.

Speaker 3 (28:46):
Heretics is a particular type of false
teaching.

Speaker 2 (28:49):
Right.

Speaker 3 (28:50):
Yeah, so that's the kind of basic definition.
Okay, so some characteristicsof false teaching that we can
look at in scripture would beone false teachers in the let's
say, in the malevolent sense,the evil, evil intent, let's say
.
If we're talking about thatkind of false teaching, it's

(29:12):
predatory.
First, jesus refers to thesetypes of people as wolves in
sheep's clothing.
They sneak into churches withthe intent to destroy the lives
of believers.
So they're predators in a way,and in that sense they are
acting as agents of Satan.
They're either demonized orthey're acting on behalf of that

(29:34):
in some way.
So, Jesus warns us about theircharacter.
He says you'll know them bytheir fruits like a can a can, a
good tree, produce bad fruit?
Uh, it's a question he asked inmatthew 7.
So a false teacher is going toproduce bad fruit, and that
fruit is not necessarily veryapparent on the surface, but it
could.
It'll come out in theirbehavior and maybe the things

(29:58):
they say, or, in time, it'llcome out in the scandals that
follow them.

Speaker 2 (30:04):
So yeah, and the headlines.

Speaker 3 (30:05):
So, yeah, so they're predatory.
With that, they might showabilities with great spiritual
power and charisma.
They might be very winsome,charismatic and persuasive
charisma.
They might be very winsome,charismatic and persuasive.
Strangely enough, they mighteven be able or claim to perform
miracles or hear from the Lord,or anything like that Some kind

(30:26):
of divine nature?
Yeah, they can be quitepersuasive in a lot of ways, and
that speaks to theirmanipulative behavior.

Speaker 2 (30:34):
Yeah, they're psychopaths, which is where that
whole psychology thing kind ofoverlaps right.

Speaker 3 (30:40):
Yeah, certainly there could be sociopathic and
psychopathic tendencies.
Sam can get into thedistinction of those two things.
I always get those two confusedsociopathic and psychopathic.

Speaker 2 (30:48):
Yeah, I'm still not clear on those either.
I always look it up and Iforget.

Speaker 3 (30:52):
Yeah, but yeah, these kind of false teachers would be
characterized by denial orquestioning of core doctrines.
Maybe they are questioning likecore ethical behaviors, like
sexual ethics in the Christianlife, or they kind of cast doubt
on the authority of scriptureor maybe something like the

(31:15):
deity of Christ or somethinglike that.
You know, it could go in manydifferent directions.
They could be encouragingpeople to engage in sexual
immorality in some way.
There's a there's a woman namedJezebel who's referenced in the
, the letter to Thyatira in thebook of revelation, and she
that's what she's doing, and Godbasically warns that church.

(31:37):
He's like.
He basically says he's going tokill her and then, and then, if
, if, anyone who's following herdoesn't repent, he's going to
do the same to them.
Uh, so he's.
It's a pretty serious judgment.
Yeah, paul talks aboutjudiaizers.
These are jews who have comeinto the church and they are
attempting to twist or changethe gospel, and so they're

(31:57):
attaching something to thegospel and therefore changes it.

Speaker 2 (32:00):
Yeah, like.
Weren't they the ones sayinglike oh, you still need to get
circumcised.
Yeah yeah, that's in the bookof Galatians, yeah Right.

Speaker 3 (32:07):
Yeah, so those would be characteristics of these
people are predatory, they'repreying on Christians and
getting them to do things thatare contrary to the gospel
itself.
They Getting them to do thingsthat are contrary to the gospel
itself.
They can be very carnal, yeahyeah.
Another characteristic was thatit could be very carnal and
that is worldly minded, focusedon sexual things, focused like a

(32:29):
, like an odd focus yeah.
Fixation, thank you.
Fixation on sexual things likejust lewd joking and uh things
like that from the pulpit.
And obsession with wealth,right, material things.
These are carnal in nature,they're fleshly in nature, yeah,

(32:50):
very worldly uh, and with thatthey can be very greedy, they
can amass they would tend toamass wealth for themselves,
make displays of that thatwealth, brag about it.
Even sometimes All that stuffis contrary to the
qualifications of a teacher oran elder in the church.

Speaker 2 (33:06):
Yeah, I think we all we already were thinking of.
We have certain peoplespecifically in our minds that
we know.

Speaker 3 (33:15):
And that goes for both our traditions, catholic
and Protestant.
In the Protestant world it'slike a circus.
Sometimes we have all kinds ofcharlatans that come out of the
woodwork.
And in the Catholic Church I'msure you could speak to a lot of
the scandals that have come outwith various elders or teachers
and priests or bishops over theyears and it's not unique to

(33:37):
any of our traditions, is mypoint, you know.
and yeah it's something thatjesus warned us all about that
wolves will come in to prey onbelievers so yeah, those are
some characteristics carnal,greedy, predatory, uh, with that
can it can be uh, legalistic,and that they convince people to
adopt different moral codes,like the Judaizers and Galatians

(33:58):
, I would put somewhat.
I would put Seventh-dayAdventists in this category.
Not all of them, but some ofthem, depending on their views
of their founder is Ellen BWhite.
I think it's Ellen G White.
Ellen B White, I always forget,but some of them elevate her

(34:18):
teachings to the authority ofthe Bible, wow, and some of them
don't.
Some of them think, no, they'rejust helpful, they're just
helpful teachings.
So it really depends on, Ithink, how they view her,
because she came up with anentire moral code for true
Christians to follow Interesting, yeah, for true christians to

(34:39):
follow interesting, yeah, yeah.
So those are just somecharacteristics of what uh like
a very, um, almost really aradical kind of false teaching
would look like, yeah, it'sfunny because, yeah, a lot of
what you're saying.

Speaker 2 (34:50):
I don't know if you guys are aware, but, um, a
couple episodes back, I talkabout my experience of having
been briefly part of a cult lastyear.
So somebody reached out to meonline inviting me to join a
Bible study group online and Idid and, yeah, it turned out
like the focus of this Biblestudy was to understand the book

(35:12):
of Revelation, which you knowit's like a very cryptic book.
And, yeah, their whole thingwas like, oh, we're going to use
the rest of the Bible tounderstand, like parables and
figurative language and that'show we're going to deconstruct
everything that is said inRevelation.
And you know, over time, like Iwas interested in it because it

(35:33):
seemed like it was coming froman angle of being very like
symbolic, right, like, oh, we'regoing to understand the real
meaning of what's there.
And, like I mentioned, I'vebeen a big fan of Jordan
Peterson for a long time andthat's kind of like you know,
something that he talks about,right, like the symbolism behind
things, and so, yeah, I thoughtit was just really interesting.

(35:53):
So I stuck around for, like Ithink, about four months.
But yeah, over time I time Irealized like no, something's
fishy here, like they'redefinitely trying to, like you
know, put their own spin onthings, right, their own angle,
even though, like I'm not abiblical scholar myself, but I
can already tell, like you know,just from my limited
understanding of having beenraised catholic and, I guess,

(36:14):
like a pop culture understandingof of the faith.
I'm like no, something's notright here, like they're
definitely trying to lead us toa certain ending right that they
that they want um.
So then I did some researchonline and I figured out that,
um, they're a cult based out ofkorea.
they're called shin chonji, umand uh yeah just if, when you

(36:36):
guys have a chance, you shouldlook into it.
It it's really fascinating andthey've been around since like
the 80s, which, yeah, I neverheard about them until I was a
part of it.
So really interesting.
But, yeah, definitely.
You know, when I was in theseclasses, the instructors that we
had super charismatic right,like you know, you wanted to

(37:00):
like, oh, I want to be theirfriend, I want to understand.
Like you know, this is sointeresting.
They made it seem so appealing,um, and then you know, when I
researched, um, like who theyactually were, and I find out
that, yeah, this guy, um, theirleader, lee man, he, uh, yeah,
he, he wrote his own book backin the 80s about how, um an

(37:23):
angel delivered him a vision ofshowing him the fulfillment of
the book of revelation classic.

Speaker 3 (37:30):
Yeah, exactly yeah, so he's got his own book right.

Speaker 2 (37:33):
That's kind of like elevated above the bible in a
sense.
Um, and then, yeah, he makesclaims of like kind of being a
deity and rejecting like oh,Christ is not coming back in the
flesh, he's just a spirit kindof thing.
And he refers to himself as thenew John right, Because the
book of Revelation is written byJohn.

(37:54):
He's like I'm the new John who,um, you know, I see the
fulfillment of the prophecy andyou know, obviously he's the one
that, uh, he understands theentire Bible.
You know, he's like theultimate authority.

Speaker 3 (38:07):
So yeah, it's just funny how yeah, that's
interesting because you rememberwhat I just said about false
teachers and heretics, like ifit's a, it's a heretical, false
teacher.
They're going to change somesort of core doctrine and it's
not knowing.
I was about to ask you, I did,but not knowing about that, call
you.
You described how, uh, hestarted to change what the

(38:29):
doctrine of the second comingyeah, classic doctrine is that
christ will come back andestablish his kingdom.
That has not happened yet rightand it sounds like this cult is
changing that doctrine, that hemaybe he already came back, or
uh, the leader of the cult isthe embodiment of christ in some
way, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (38:46):
It's something like yeah, it's like, he's, he's kind
of the, I guess the ambassadorfor christ yeah, christ is not
coming back he says, yeah, um,and yeah, he says that the
events, uh, in the book ofrevelation like you, you know
the prophecies.
I guess they already took placein the 80s or 70s, something
like that he says that it wasall like this ceremony that took

(39:09):
place and you know, it'shonestly, it's all very like,
it's all very detailed in how heexplains it.
And so if you stick around forthat whole Bible study class,
which I think it takes like 10months to complete, I can see
how these people end up beingbrainwashed because, yeah,
they're slowly being fed.
Oh well, this is what thismeans, is what that means?

(39:30):
And so then, when it comes tothe conclusion, it's like oh
well, yeah, that makes totalsense that you know the book of
Revelation.
It was all a prophecy aboutthis ceremony that took place in
korea back in the in the 70s.

Speaker 3 (39:45):
So, um yeah, a tactic of those teachers is to what I
call weaving.
They weave in and out of a, abiblical principle that is true,
or a bible verse that is true.
They'll interpret thatcorrectly and then they'll weave
in some weird or esotericinterpretation right with it,
and so it has.
It has this facade of of uhauthority and persuasiveness to

(40:09):
it and it sucks a lot of peoplein.

Speaker 2 (40:12):
Yeah, because there's some truth in there with the
lies, right.

Speaker 1 (40:15):
So just to kind of um , add to that piece is that a
lot of these teachers whatthey'll play on is kind of like
the fears, the anxieties or eventhe desires that people have,
and they know this right, theyknow it's almost like they take
a poll or they do like a surveyand they just know what people
are looking for.
Right, and you kind of touchedon this a little bit is there's

(40:37):
this emotional piece that if youcould tug on people's emotional
heartstrings in a way, or theirfears or something that you can
really build on that.
So, for example, I think yousaid um, you know, seeing
talking about revelation, likethat's a good thing, like a lot
of people are interested in that, yeah, um, so he knows that if
I build a case for, hey, I goingto give this big discussion or

(40:59):
teaching on revelation, peopleare going to be interested.
Why?
Because they like the mystery,they like to figure out these
things.
So that's kind of like the hookto get people in and then, once
they're in, then you slowlystart shifting those things
Right.
It's not always abrupt and youknow to his point earlier about,
you know, psychopaths andsociopaths.
Psychopaths are very technicaland very calculated in their

(41:22):
moves because they know whatthey're doing.
It's psychological warfare,right.
They know how to appeal to theemotions.
They know how to address thingsor present it in a way that's
appealing, right.
So that's what these teachershave this kind of psychopathic
approach to capturing people,right, and again they're they're
very cocky, so they're going towait, and a lot of the what

(41:44):
we're seeing in the churchesnowadays is kind of this
emotional piece, like we'regoing to give the music, we're
going to give this bigpresentation, right, this this
huge show to get them justemotionally, and they're just
ready to receive anything.
When you feel good, you're morewilling to accept things that
are being given to you, right?
So that seems to be the.
The approach that a lot of theseum uh churches, or false

(42:09):
teachers kind of uh approach itfrom is that they want to build
up the emotions.
They want to um, get you not toreally think logically through
things so that they can sharethat information and lead you
astray.
You know, sociopaths are moreof the weird type of crazy,
right?
They're the ones who, just,they look crazy and they act a
little crazy, right?
They're more impulsive, theydon't seem normal, right?

(42:31):
Psychopaths, you know, they'rethe ones that Tim was mentioning
more charismatic.
They're very calculated, knowwhat they're doing, right.

Speaker 2 (42:44):
So that's kind of one of one of the ways in which you
can uh make that distinctionthere.

Speaker 1 (42:46):
Yeah, so the psychopaths, yeah, it's that
whole the wolf in sheep'sclothing, right, because on the
outside they can appear to begood, normal people or whatever,
but on the inside they're, yeah, planning, planning people's
destruction, the big word rightnow in the fee is the, the
narcissist, right, and it'sthrown around a lot so I
hesitate almost sharing that,because some people display
narcissistic behaviors but thatdoesn't mean they're narcissists

(43:08):
, like a narcissist personalitydisorder, right?
So just being very careful withthat, um, because you do see
other personality traits thatalso play a huge role, like
someone who is it's called thefive person, the big five
personality trait, so there's anacronym for it is ocean.
So O is openness, c isconscientiousness, e is

(43:33):
extroversion, a is agreeablenessand N is neuroticism, right.
So people who are high inopenness and high in
assertiveness, they're gonna belike these type of people, right
.
They're assertive, they're very,you know, they strongly believe
what they're saying, they'reopen to anything, they're very
extroverted, so they cansocialize and engage people very

(43:54):
well.
So they will have a moreinclination to something like
this, right, to seek out thistype of power and, you know,
influence people, right.
They're probably going to bevery mid to high on
agreeableness, right, cause youneed to agree with people to
kind of win them over, but atthe same time you need to be not

(44:15):
as agreeable when it comes tothem challenging what you're
sharing with them and whatyou're sharing with them and
what you're presenting to themyeah, because a lot of cool
factors there, yeah, yeah, soyou're saying like there's
overlap there, right, so youhave like all these like
psychopaths, sociopaths and thenjust people who, um, maybe have
some narcissistic personalitytraits.

Speaker 2 (44:36):
Yeah, like they all kind of overlap, but so we can
kind of get confused like, oh,that person's a narcissist or
but maybe, yeah, they just havea very high, um, uh, what are
you saying?
Extroversion, right, and likethey have an ability to kind of
win people over and all that,but it doesn't necessarily mean
that they're like malicious,exactly yeah, yeah, because I
mean you.

Speaker 1 (44:55):
You see, people who are extroverted and friendly all
the time and because they'recharismatic, it doesn't mean
that that they have thoseintentions right, but it's the
other way around, where thosewho are doing that, who are
teaching falsely or leadingpeople astray that's right, or
leading people astray.
Um, you do see these verycommon characteristics of high

(45:16):
assertiveness, high extextroversion and so on, very low
on conscientiousness, which isawareness of self.

Speaker 2 (45:22):
Yeah, so we touched on the whole thing about wealth
and I think even Sam, when wewere messaging back and forth on
Instagram, you mentionedprosperity teachings.
So, yeah, I kind of want toknow what your guys's take on
that is, because it is kind oftricky, right like, as people

(45:42):
you know, we want to besuccessful.
We have certain ambitions.
I mean, like you guys, right,like you, you work at a
university and you wanted tohave these careers that you have
, um, so, yeah, it's like wheredo we draw the line?

Speaker 3 (45:55):
right like what is good ambition and what's just,
yeah, I guess, um, chasingworldly pleasures and being
destructive just to kind of tiein the last point that we were
talking about in the context offalse teaching.
A cult like the one youdescribed, that is an example of
false teaching.
And a cult leader is an exampleof a false teacher, but it

(46:16):
could be a lot.
False teaching could be a lotbroader than that.
So a cult would be an exampleof a false teacher, but it could
be a lot.
False teaching could be a lotbroader than that.
So a cult would be an exampleof that.
But to the question you justasked about prosperity gospel,
that's an example of a teaching,a broad based false teaching.
That's pervasive and there'smany different false teachers
that pick up on this and use it.
So yeah so prosperity gospel forthose who may not know what we

(46:40):
mean refers to the belief thatthe Christian life is one that
financial and financialprosperity, physical health and
generally just the success inlife is a sort of a divine right
of Christians to take hold ofif they have the power and the

(47:02):
willingness to do it.
It's not a guarantee, becauseyou have to have enough faith.
According to the teachers ofthis doctrine, you have to have
enough faith and you have to saythe right things and do the
right things in order to getthis.
But if you do all these things,you can take these things.
You can take wealth and healthand all these things and claim
them for yourself, because thatis your right as a child of God.

(47:24):
Behind this teaching is anotherprosperity.
Gospel is actually anapplication of another teaching
called Word of Faith Doctrine,or the word of faith movement.
That started in the early 20thcentury and essentially a word
of faith says that inside all ofus is a little piece of god

(47:47):
again, here's a here's a kernelof truth.
We're created in the image ofgod right, okay, uh and uh.
The word of faith movement saysthat there's a little God inside
all of us and just as God.
This comes from Romans 10,where Paul says uh.
Or maybe it's Romans four,where he quotes he's talking

(48:08):
about, paul's talking aboutAbraham and he says, uh, when
God promised Abraham that he'dmake him a father of many
nations, god said something thatwasn't and then brought it into
being through his, through hisword.
Okay, and false teachers willtake that and some other
scriptures, like Psalm 82 andJohn chapter 10, where Jesus

(48:29):
quotes Psalm 82 and the.
The Psalm says it has thisquote this is you are gods, but
it's not talking about us, it'stalking about angels.
But they'll take that and applyit to us and say see, Jesus is
saying we are little gods, andjust as God can speak things
into existence, so can we.
Oh yeah.
Yeah, and there's a wholetheological narrative behind all

(48:53):
of this, if you get really intoit.
But essentially it says thatyou and I uh part of our part of
the christian life is takinghold of these promises and
manipulating creation,essentially by our spoken word,
to bring about success into ourlives so it.
It actually mimics like themanifestation.
I was just gonna say that yeahit actually mimics it a lot.

Speaker 2 (49:14):
It's, it's, uh, almost identical to it which, if
you think about it in a way itis, it's kind of a satanic,
luciferian principle right likeI'm the one who's gonna
manipulate the universe to do mywill, exactly exactly yeah, and
and what does it ultimately getpeople to do?

Speaker 3 (49:31):
it gets them to fix their love and their affection
on things of the world.
Like you said, it's not wrongto desire stability, to desire
financial stability and securityto be able to take care of
ourselves.
I mean, proverbs says povertyis like a city with broken down
walls You're just vulnerable andwealth is like the walls of the

(49:51):
city that protects you from thevulnerabilities of life.
So money has a function in ourlives, but prosperity gospel
says this is the point of thechristian life is to reverse all
the effects of sin by gettingus rich, healthy.
Yeah, man, that's so ridiculousyeah and it's powerful because

(50:14):
it because because people whoare desperate yeah, buy into
this so go ahead, sam you.
Sam, you were going to saysomething.

Speaker 1 (50:20):
Yeah, no, it was basically that.
I mean, that speaks to one ofthe basic human needs, right?
Well, yeah, I need to survive.
I need to have money to buy thethings that I need, and it
starts with that like thingsthat I need, but then it becomes
so excessive that now it's justwell, I should be dripping in
millions and millions of dollarsto be able to provide the life
that I'm looking for.

(50:41):
And that's the whole appeal isthat if you follow these things,
you will be like me, having allthis money to go to all these
places, and if you don't becomewealthy, then you're doing
something wrong.
Right, so it's playing on bothpieces.
There's playing on one of thedesire to have money and also
the fear of oh, I'm doingsomething wrong, so I need to
keep donating money or I need tokeep practicing this thing that

(51:03):
they're telling me to do inorder to get to that point.
So it's just this constantcycle.
Right, you can never get it.
Right, you never end up havingas much money as they do, so
you're just stuck in that cycle.
I'm gonna keep trying until Iget there.

Speaker 3 (51:14):
I must be doing something wrong there, I must be
doing something wrong.
Um, so yeah, just kind of playsinto that.
And the false teachers in this,in this camp, are predatory and
that they prey on thedesperation of people and
they're greedy.

Speaker 2 (51:25):
So they say give me money, donate to my ministry,
sow a seed of faith and god willheal you yeah, they're kind of
like these uh people that I'veseen on the internet, like these
, uh, these gurus, right,financial gurus who are like
yeah, oh, I got wealthy, I'mgonna show you how to do it, so
pay me 500 bucks to take mycourse and then, yeah, it's like
just a total scam, rightpyramid scheme kind of thing.

Speaker 3 (51:48):
Yeah yeah, prosperity gospel is a religious version
of that right yeah, it'sfascinating.

Speaker 2 (51:53):
uh, yeah, you see that even, yeah, right, I mean
it's supposed to be, yeah, theplace of God and then just yeah,
seeing what they do with it,it's ridiculous.
Yeah, there's this video that'skind of gone viral of this
pastor who you know he wascriticizing like Catholic

(52:13):
priests, saying like, oh well,you know there's this kind of
like this issue within theCatholic church because you know
their leaders.
Well, you know there's thiskind of like this issue within
the Catholic Church because youknow their leaders, their
priests, you know they're alllike Baroque virgins basically,
and so it's like you know.
I mean sure you can havecriticisms of the Catholic
Church, but yeah, just the wayhe put it, it was very like, you

(52:35):
know, because, in a sense, whatsome people have, you know,
taken from that it's like, well,then you're criticizing Jesus,
then, right, like he was a brokevirgin, and so, yeah, just kind
of bizarre.
So, yeah, they definitely theypreambule because, yeah, we all
do, we want to have stability inour lives, right, we want to be
able to pay our bills andprovide for our families.

(52:57):
You know, like I personally, Ilove the idea of getting married
, starting a family, so I wantto be able to provide for them,
right, you know, that would behard to do.
If you know, I'm like a cashierat Walmart.
I mean it's possible but it'dbe difficult.
So, yeah, I have certainambitions in life.
But yeah, it's kind of like,how do I, how do yeah, how do I

(53:19):
make sure, like I don't overstepthose boundaries right?
And yeah, I've.
Even when I was an atheist, Iwas somebody who I always I was
very critical of likematerialism.
I just I never understood it.
I lived for a long time.
I lived in Orange County,california.
Orange County, california.

Speaker 3 (53:42):
And nearby there's.

Speaker 2 (53:43):
Newport Beach, which I don't know if you guys are
familiar, but Newport Beach,Huntington Beach, these are all
like very wealthy areas, right,and I always thought it was
funny.
Like you know, you have thesepeople.
They're, like, you know,conservative Christians, right,
but yeah, you see them living inlike these giant homes and they
have like five cars in thedriveway and they have yachts
and jet skis and they have avacation home in another country

(54:05):
and it's like, yeah, they, theycall themselves good Christians
but yeah, they're so obsessedwith wealth and that's, you know
, directly in scripture, Right,Like I think isn't it in the
book of Acts when Peter, I thinkthrough the Holy Spirit, he
basically kills a married couple, doesn't he?
Because they sell their landbut they keep the profits for

(54:28):
themselves, or something likethat.

Speaker 3 (54:30):
Well, they are struck down.
You're talking about the storyof Ananias and Sapphira, and
they are struck down becausethey and what was happening was
people in the church, andparticularly the wealthier
Christians in the church, wereselling parcels of land and
selling houses that they had andgiving those proceeds to the
church.
They weren't, they weren'tdivesting themselves of all of

(54:53):
their wealth, but they, whatthey were doing is identifying
the needs in their, in thatcommunity and meeting them.

Speaker 2 (55:01):
And what?

Speaker 3 (55:01):
Ananias and Sapphira thought their conceit was that
we will get credit or glory tobe seen of the congregation by
giving some money.
And don't think we've given allthe proceeds.
So they actually keep half ofit back and then give half of it
, and but they pretend as thoughthey're giving all of it.

(55:23):
And so peter says why have youlied to the holy spirit?
So they weren't, they weren'tactually struck down for keeping
half of it.

Speaker 2 (55:31):
Um that, would have been perfectly okay yeah, they
were.

Speaker 3 (55:33):
They were struck down for lying about it.
Okay, uh, yeah, yeah, you know,it acts, acts.
A good, uh, a good contrast tothese prosperity gospel Okay and
rich and uh.
It's not communism, but whatthey what the rich people were,
the rich christians at leastunderstood was that they had the

(56:04):
ability to uh provide for thechristians who were in need yeah
, pulling their resourcestogether, yeah yeah, as part of,
as part of the kingdom, andthey did so willingly um right
so I guess we got to be carefulthat we don't jump to
conclusions about christians whohave, uh, more than us.
Um, certainly it's.
It's a vice and it's it's atemptation to just keep amassing

(56:28):
things for ourselves and saylook, god's been good to me,
look all the all god's blessingsand it's like well, you know it
certainly could be a blessing,but this also could be a
temptation in your life and itcould actually keep you from
doing things for the lord.
You know it certainly could bea blessing, but this also could
be a temptation in your life andit could actually keep you from
doing things for the Lord.
You know Satan, if he can keepyou on the sidelines, he'll
he'll give you a mansion.
If he can keep you on thesidelines, that's cheap for him.

Speaker 1 (56:51):
And even, as you mentioned I think you mentioned
this in our episode too, timwhere he said also, the other
side of the spectrum can also beequally as damaging, which is
where, because I don't have alot, yeah, because I don't have
a lot, then that makes me moreholy, because I'm giving
everything to the ministry, towhatever, right, yeah.

Speaker 2 (57:14):
So I think that there's that side feels more
self-righteous because theydon't have a lot, and there's
the other side that their whole,uh, goal is to become rich yeah
, man, we got to do a part twoabout this because now there's
so many other things coming tomind now too, um, because you
know, like, with withcatholicism and with, um,
eastern orthodoxy, like a bigpart of it is like I need to

(57:38):
suffer, right, and so you have,like, you know, people who
become monks, right, they takevows of chastity and vows of of
poverty and they go, you know,live up, up in a mountain, right
and like you know, isolatedfrom the rest of the world and,
you know, just suffering, and sothat would be something
interesting to to cover, because, yeah, that's like something
that like when I hear that I'mlike, you know, that's really

(58:01):
powerful, really powerful tohear.
But like me personally as a layperson, like I, just I don't
want to suffer really like, Iwant to live.
I want to live a decent life,to be honest, right.
So where do I fit in with allthis?
Like, do I need to get rid ofeverything and go live in the
wilderness in order to be worthyof god's love and worthy of you
know, heaven, or can you know,can I just like live you know,

(58:23):
like just a regular, normal life, um, but uh, yeah

Speaker 3 (58:28):
it's something that um well, hey, since you, you
know you brought sorry, I didn'tmean no, no, no warns about.
You know, in the latter daysthere are forms of asceticism
that will crop up, that willtell people don't do this and
don't do this and don't do this,as though that's a form of
holiness and godliness.

Speaker 2 (58:49):
And.

Speaker 3 (58:49):
Paul says that's wrong too.
He does tell us.
You know, paul says this in hisletters and Jesus says this.
You know, jesus says a servantis not greater than his master.
If they hated me, they're goingto hate you.
Who's they?
They're those who resist thegospel.
Paul says all those who desireto live a godly life will suffer
persecution.

(59:09):
Paul, and in his letters hedescribes all the things that he
endured for the sake of thegospel.
That is, getting the gospel out, yeah, into the world, and so
for christians who are wonderinglike that is getting the gospel
out into the world.
And so for Christians who arewondering like do I need to go
off in the mountains and live asa monk?
And like self-flagellate andlike whip myself on the back, If
you try to live a godly life,and that is to be a faithful

(59:33):
Christian, to be witnessing, tobe selflessly loving other
people and to be a faithfulwitness, that is, if someone
says are you a Christian?
Or they say like in our day andage, it's like, are you going
to say the pronouns or not?
If you live a faithful life.
It's probably going to cost youat some point, and you need to

(59:53):
be willing to accept the costsof discipleship.
That's what that means.
It's not a pointless suffering.
The suffering is in the witnessof the gospel that goes out
into the world.

Speaker 2 (01:00:06):
Right Putting your money where your mouth is kind
of.

Speaker 3 (01:00:10):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:00:12):
Yeah, being willing to, yeah, I guess, in extreme
cases, yeah, maybe even lay yourlife down for your faith, right
, but, yeah, guess, um, it'salready been an hour so I won't
take up too much of your time,but, um, yeah, I guess this
whole thing, um, really what Ithink about it's I mean, we do
have to, we need to have anauthority right, um, like I'm

(01:00:38):
somebody who, yeah, I'm verymuch against, like you know,
this notion of like relationshipover religion, like I,
personally, I mean, yes, we, weall individually, have our
personal relationship to, tochrist, um, and all that, but,
um, I do think we need to haveauthority right, um, to guide us
.
But then, yeah, that's where itgets tricky, right, because,

(01:01:04):
yeah, we could be sold falseteachings, and then it's like,
okay, well, so I just have toaccept everything.
Then, right, if I want to be agood Christian, like I know
myself as a Catholic, yeah,there's a lot that's part of
Catholicism that you know, evenlike with when it comes to like
sexuality.
You know, there's like veryfirm, firm rules there, like
with what a married couple cando in the bedroom, right, you

(01:01:26):
know, in the privacy of theirown home.
So, yeah, it's like, ok, I mean, god allows free will.
But then it's like, does thechurch allow free will or do I
have to just accept everythingthat they tell me?
So, yeah, it's just, it's very,it's very difficult to navigate
right, like, and after havingthis experience of being in the
cult, honestly it did make mequestion my faith, because I was

(01:01:52):
like, okay, well, I had thiscult telling me I need to just
take their word for it.
Maybe it's the same with youknow, the Catholic church or any
other church.
It's like, oh, just take myword for it, but how do I know,
right?
So it's real tricky.
Yeah, I'm kind of stuck in thismindset of like, okay, do I
trust my authority or do Iquestion it, right?
So I don't know what's yourguys' take on that Like, how do

(01:02:12):
we Well, I would encourage youand your listeners to study the
Bible.

Speaker 3 (01:02:16):
Study your Bible and know it, and this is not in
conflict with even Catholicteaching.
The Catholic Church encouragestheir people to study the Bible.
Paul commends or Luke when hewrites the book of Acts.
He commends the Christians inthe town of Berea, because when
Paul came teaching them andtelling them this gospel, they

(01:02:39):
went back to the scriptures tocheck to see if Paul was telling
the truth or not.
Can you imagine that they'relike who's this guy Paul Like,
let's go crack open our OldTestament see if he's telling
the truth about all theseprophecies.

Speaker 2 (01:02:52):
Yeah.
And now for us it's like oh, ofcourse, yeah, the apostle Paul.

Speaker 3 (01:03:00):
But yeah, back then it's like who is this guy?
Yeah, yeah, and you know, studytakes a long time.
Not everyone's going to be aseminary scholar you don't have
to be but there's lots ofresources out there.
And just on the point about thecult and things like that, if
something doesn't quite soundright, there's a good chance.
It's not right, so go seek outthe answers, and YouTube's a
great resource for this.
There's lots of great Christianpodcasters and influencers out

(01:03:24):
there that are giving soundteaching.
You just kind of wade throughthe muck a little bit.
And, yeah, go talk to yourpastor or your priest and get
some advice and counsel on themeaning of the scriptures.
Of course, sam and I, of course, are Protestants and you're a
Catholic, so we're gonna havedifferent takes on some passages
of scripture.

(01:03:44):
But in general to bring it backto the first part of our
episode about orthodoxy webelieve in the core doctrines of
the faith and those willultimately bring you back to a
faith in Jesus Christ and thetrue gospel and living out the
true gospel.

Speaker 2 (01:04:04):
Well said.
Yeah, there's a lot of goodresources out there.
Yeah, myself, as Catholic, likethere's Catholic Answers, it's
very popular.
Yeah, there's a lot ofresources out there.
Um, and then myself I got, um,I got a copy of the catechism of
the catholic church, which umwas commissioned by um pope john

(01:04:25):
paul ii, uh, which just it laysout kind of like okay, this is
what the catholic churchbelieves and why we teach these
things.
So kind of been reading thatbecause, yeah, things will pop
up and I'm like why, why do webelieve that?
Right?
So I've been using that to kindof um yeah understand on a
deeper level.
And, yeah, a lot of times it'slike, okay, yeah, there's,
there's good reason behind that.

(01:04:47):
So yeah for sure.
Um, if you do some diggingaround, you can find good
answers.
Um but yeah, it's just, it's aconstant, uh, it's constant
effort right To um kind ofaccept authority, but then also,
um, yeah, think for yourself.
And I think that's where youknow it's the perfect overlap
with what you guys do, right,psychology and theology.

(01:05:08):
Because, yeah, I mean, we're,we're all individuals and we,
you know, we want to think forourselves, but then, yeah, if we
take it too far, then you knowwe become heretics or youetics
or just believing somethingfalse, and we drift away from
the faith.
So, yeah, it's difficultterritory.

Speaker 3 (01:05:25):
Can I leave you with a list?
We did this in our episode onfalse teaching just to kind of
help people understand.
A false teacher or falseteaching will seek to isolate
you and there's safety innumbers.
Not that we do truth bydemocracy, but the truth is like
light that exposes the darknessand false teaching.
Uh, we'll seek to isolate youand put you in darkness and, uh,

(01:05:49):
the more people with, withlight of the of the truth and
the gospel and the scriptures,can expose false teaching.
And so if you see a lot ofpeople saying, hey, this guy's a
problem, like, don't listen tothat guy.
Hey, he's a weirdo, it's a cult, it's a good sign.
Hey, maybe I should at leasthear them out to see what
they're going to say.
But yeah, some characteristicsof false teachers or false

(01:06:11):
teaching One refusing correction.
They double down on theirteaching.
They're ambiguous or confusingin their language.
Strong appeals to emotion,joking about sensuality or
sexuality.
Sowing division throughquote-unquote new teaching.
Denying church authority, likethe authority of the scriptures

(01:06:33):
or the authority of the churchitself to discipline them for
their new teaching.
Secretive or elusive behavior.
Uh, demeaning or cursinglanguage toward believers.
Uh, particularly their critics.
That's, that's a, that's a signof the demonic associating
themselves with the apostles ofthe authority of scripture in

(01:06:54):
some way, um appealing to theirown authority instead of the
scriptures, appealing toresults-based ministry like look
at, look at my huge crowd.
What an anointing I have on thelord.
Are you going to come againstgod's anointed?
my fruits yeah, a preoccupationwith money, braggadocious.
They like to consolidate powerin themselves?

(01:07:17):
Uh, they have.
They lack transparency and uh,they try to isolate believers
from one another.
So those are allcharacteristics if you see those
things going on.
Those are all red flags, yeahnice.

Speaker 2 (01:07:31):
Yeah, I mean pretty much everything you said.
Yeah, that applies to myexperience in the cult.
Um uh well, is there anythingelse you guys wanted to add?

Speaker 3 (01:07:43):
uh well, we kind of go over time, so I won't.
I won't talk anymore.
Sam knows I can go on forever.
Yeah, I'll kind of I'll forcemyself to stop, but uh, thanks
for having us on man, it's beengreat yeah, this is really good
thank you, ricardo.

Speaker 2 (01:07:56):
Yeah, I love this and yeah, for sure we need to, yeah
, have a part two, because somany other things came to mind.
Um, and yeah, I'm also.
I could talk about this stuffendlessly, um, but, yeah, I
appreciate so much that you guysreached out in the first place.
Um, I love what you guys aredoing and, of course, I'll make
sure to include links so thatpeople can go check out your
work um but yeah, we'll stay intouch and uh, thank you so much

(01:08:19):
thank you bro.
Thank you, man, have a good one.
Yeah, have a good night guys.