April 1, 2025 • 39 mins
What if our modern rejection of shame is missing something vital? In this thought-provoking conversation, Jason Glenn, ethics professor at Liberty University currently completing his PhD on shame and cognitive emotions, takes us on a fascinating journey through the theological history of shame and guilt.
From ancient Egyptian dynasties to biblical Hebrew concepts, from Augustine's controversial sexual interpretation to Bonhoeffer's revolutionary perspective, we discover how Christian thinkers throughout history have approached shame very differently than our "shameless" contemporary culture. Glenn skillfully navigates complex philosophical traditions while making them accessible and relevant.
The conversation reveals surprising nuance around shame - how the Eastern Orthodox tradition saw Christ-like qualities in bearing unjust shame, how Aquinas viewed shame as essential for moral development, and how Bonhoeffer understood shame as both protective covering and testimony to our broken relationship with God.
While modern society often blames shame for everything from suicide to self-hatred, Christians throughout history have seen redemptive possibilities in certain forms of shame. This tension creates significant challenges for believers navigating mental health concerns while honoring biblical perspectives.
This episode kicks off a three-part series examining shame from theological, philosophical, and practical angles. Whether you're interested in church history, psychology, counseling ethics, or personal spiritual growth, you'll find yourself challenged to reconsider assumptions about these powerful emotions.
Are we missing something vital by trying to eliminate shame entirely? Could shame actually be pointing us toward healing and wholeness? Listen and discover why these ancient concepts remain profoundly relevant today.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
All right, everyone, welcome back to the Psych and
Theo podcast.
We are here with a specialguest.
His name is Jason Glenn.
He's a colleague of mine in thearts and sciences department at
Liberty University.
He teaches ethics alongside meand he's a good friend and we've
(00:22):
been colleagues for a number ofyears now, and what we're going
to talk about today is thetopic of shame and guilt in our
culture.
Now, if you've been listening tome and Sam for a little bit,
you've noticed that we've talkedabout shame and other topics
like that recently.
This is a little bit differentof a spin on what we're going to
(00:43):
be covering, because this ismore academic and theological.
So we've covered this from apsychological standpoint and now
we're going to be covering thisfrom a philosophical and
theological standpoint, andJason is an expert on this topic
.
He's actually working on hisdissertation on this topic.
So I'll let Jason just tell alittle bit about himself as we
(01:05):
get going, before I do Sam, isthere anything that our audience
needs to know about in advanceupcoming episodes or where they
can find us, anything like that?
Speaker 2 (01:16):
No, I think you guys will be excited about this
three-part series.
We're covering three topicswithin this aspect of shame and
guilt, so I think you guys willenjoy these conversations.
I think Tim and I have beenlooking back at a number of our
previous episodes and seeingwhat's been of most interest to
you guys, so just be ready forthat.
We're probably going to godeeper in a lot of these other
(01:38):
topics that we've discussed and,yeah, be excited, as always.
You know.
Feel free to send your requestthrough Instagram or send us a
message at psychandtheo atgmailcom.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
And yeah, we always look forward to integrating new
topics into the podcast, so keepfollowing with that mentioned,
this is going to be athree-parter series, and so
we're going to break this downinto digestible episodes so that
you can listen to them and youknow at your own pace.
(02:13):
But the first part is going tobe about historical,
philosophical and theologicalfoundations and controversies
around guilt and shame, and thenpart two will be on current and
historical arguments aboutguilt and shame, and then part
three will be about Christianversus various cultural postures
and applications when it comesto shame.
(02:33):
Now, that's a mouthful ofthings, but Jason is going to
flesh all that out for us.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
I thought you guys were going to do it.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
All right, so let's get started.
Jason, why don't you tell theaudience who you are and just
tell a little bit about yourself?
Speaker 3 (02:51):
Yeah Again, jason Glenn, married for 20, 25 plus
years to my beautiful wifeAshley, who's a photographer
here in the Lynchburg area.
Four daughters, two of them Oneof them's already graduated
from Liberty, one's graduatingin May from Liberty and one is
(03:12):
currently a freshman at Liberty.
And then we got a young onethat's still in junior high.
So we run the gamut.
I have been, as Tim has said,I've been working on my PhD in
ethics and systematic theology,with an emphasis in shame and
kind of the cognitive emotions,as we would say, since 2017.
(03:34):
I've been working on this thingfor a long time.
Hopefully I'll finish it up inthe next couple of years.
Got a lot of writing to do.
Uh, you know, a lot is under mybelt, um, and I do it at a
school in belgium called etflubin, evangelical theological
faculty, lubin.
Uh, good, good evangelicalseminary over there outside
(03:56):
brussels.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
So, um, yeah, I think that's that's about it okay, uh
, so tell us, how did you becomeinterested in this topic of
guilt and shame?
Speaker 3 (04:08):
yeah, and again, that's a good question.
I um, I think I was, I was inapologetics, uh, for a while
prior to this.
So I was at a school calledbrian college in east tennessee,
called Bryan College in EastTennessee, which is known for
its worldview programs, and Ireally loved Romans 1 and the
(04:31):
testimony that every human beingis without an excuse in terms
of their recognition that theyare not right with God,
recognition that they are notright with God.
And so I think that and I wasbuilding out curriculum for this
worldview program we would goto schools and Christian schools
(04:53):
and youth groups and we'dpresent these apologetic
programs and I wanted to presentsomething to the effect that
would engage these students onthe theological reality that
they know better, that there'ssomething in their heart that is
(05:15):
telling them, something intheir mind, something in their
soul that is speaking to them,that's saying you're not right
with your creator.
And again, I find that inromans, chapter one, and I I
wanted to, I wanted to studysomething related to that in
terms of philosophy.
I had read some work by um, aguy named emmanuel levinas, an
(05:39):
old french, french philosopher,jew, jewish philosopher, and he
talked about the ethics of theother and how just the very
nature of the great other andthe other human being, the other
, called me into immediately aresponsible relationship and
made me feel like again, I owedsomebody something and that I
(06:07):
was ethically responsible forsomething outside of myself.
And so I was like, okay, I'llrun with that in terms of Romans
1.
And so I went to this, got intothis program in Europe, in
Belgium, and the guy that Iwanted to study with wasn't
there.
He was actually dealing withcancer at the time.
And so they're like, yeah, wecan't do that, but here's a
(06:28):
reading list and just startgoing through it and seeing what
comes up.
But I started reading throughBonhoeffer and then another
American philosopher,contemporary to our time, martha
(06:48):
Nussbaum, and I'm reading bothof them at the same time and
both of them touched on shame.
And then, of course, bonhoeffer, in this book I was reading,
which was a commentary onGenesis 1 through 3, touched on,
of course, shame and the garden.
And then I was reading throughNussbaum and she talked about
(07:10):
how she didn't like shame,didn't see a good value in shame
, and that guilt was better.
And I was like I don't likethat and I think Bonhoeffer
agrees with me.
And so I was like okay, I thinkI'm going to pursue that the
topic and that correlated againwith that idea that something's
(07:31):
going on in each and every oneof us that should be pointing us
to the fact that we're notright with God.
So I think that's whatoriginally kind of got me going
down the shame track.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Okay, okay, that's a good answer, all right, so let's
get into this first subject ofthe historical, philosophical
and theological foundations andcontroversies of shame versus
guilt.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
Yeah, I was hoping you guys would help me out with
that part.
You know I've done my part andfeel free to stop me.
And you know, input I don'tlike that term, expert Tim,
especially when it comes toshame, because that's the thing
about shame.
I've got a buddy you know thatjust graduated at the same
(08:16):
seminary I'm at.
His name is Juergen Schultz.
He's a German pastor and nowhe's the head of the German
seminary evangelical, good,conservative, bible believing
seminary.
If you can believe there is one, there is.
It actually is um, but he is.
He did his dissertation just now, uh, on shame, the, the terms
(08:42):
for and the role of shame in inum semitic languages and a
particular time frame in jewishhistory, and he is an expert on
the hebrew terminology for shameand um a little bit on how it
(09:05):
relates with guilt.
But that is just like onelittle slice of the pie of shame
and I couldn't touch that witha 10-foot pole man.
I would not want to be in hisrealm of what he's studying in
shame because it's completelyfixed on biblical languages and
Semitic traditions and I just Iwas like, ah, I don't want to
(09:35):
get into that.
So all that to say is it justis a really broad, broad, broad
spectrum.
It covers a lot of ground andyou know a lot of.
That is testimony to the factthat it has affected every
society throughout history.
In my own personal reading, Ithink Egypt I can't remember
which dynasty it was, but it wasreally early on that was one of
(09:58):
the earliest writings of thereports recorded, writings
concerning shame, and it wastheir tradition of shaming
people in public and like stockstype of thing, and that's like
one of the early Egyptiandynasties that that was recorded
(10:20):
in.
So, yeah, it goes way back, way, way way back and and and we as
christians, of course, cantestify to why that.
Of course that is right.
We've got a meta narrative forthat, um, but yeah, of course it
starts out in in uh, in the oldtestament, uh, for us as
christians, and where we we getour information.
(10:42):
Bush is the word in Hebrew thatyou'll find as the stem for all
the most of the shame words thatyou run into and man, you run
into them all over the placeJeremiah, isaiah, of course, in
Genesis, it's Psalm all overPsalms.
Talking about this is worthy ofshame.
(11:06):
Lord, god, shame them.
I don't want to feel shame, Iam ashamed, you know.
Shame them, lord, because theyare my enemy.
So you get a really, really,really strong foundation in the
Old Testament for the use ofshame.
(11:28):
And of course the experts wouldsay, oh, of course, because
they're a shame-honored culture,right, and that's another whole
debate.
I mean, countless books havebeen written on the whole idea
of shame on our cultures andwhether Christians should even
mess with that, adopt it orapply it or recognize it.
(11:51):
Or is it actually unjust toeven engage with a shame on our
culture at all on their terms?
Speaker 1 (12:02):
But yeah, the old term yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Yeah, I guess one question that came up as you
were talking about that.
You know we're talking aboutshame in these different
cultures and shame in the moderntimes.
I guess one place to startcould be from your studies and
what you've been working on howdo you define shame and how do
you differentiate that fromguilt?
Because I think that plays intothis aspect of controversies is
what is the reason for shame,what's the effect of shame, and
(12:28):
so on.
So how do you define those?
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Yeah, that's a.
You know you don't want to getinto session two, we don't want
to.
You don't want to mess withsession two here.
Don't don't mess that up, sam.
But you know I, you know you'vegot to be careful with shame and
how you define it.
I think it's one of thosethings where't want to be
(13:16):
identified with and we feelharmed, we feel pain because we
feel like we have seen a versionof ourselves or that others.
And this is kind of again, partof the definition is that it
doesn't have to.
(13:37):
It does have to involve you.
It has to involve your ownversion of yourself in your head
, but it can be coming fromsomeone else's glance at you and
or it can be coming from athought that you have about an
expectation that you've ownedfrom the culture that you're in.
(13:59):
So there's got to be an objectoutside of yourself in some ways
, but it does always have toinvolve your own view of
yourself, so positive, we wouldsay.
There's a positive valence,there's a positive calculation
about who you are and this iswhy and we can get into this
(14:21):
down the road but this is whypride is inherent or, excuse me,
shame is inherently connectedto pride in some ways, because
you have a view of yourself thatis being violated, um, whether
justly or unjustly.
Again, that's a, that's a wholeanother part of the
conversation, um, but you knowthese aren't new.
(14:43):
New, you know definitions.
Aristotle, uh, nickelbackianethics, he, he lays out his
version again, kind of says thesame thing.
It's a painful emotion that'sbased on fear.
He's talking about Ados and thefact that your fear of losing
(15:06):
face again back to thatshame-honor culture aspect.
So you know, you get the samething in the Greco-Roman world
that you have in the Hebrewworld.
You get this ideal, virtuousunderstanding of who you should
be and you don't meet it.
You're shown a version ofyourself that doesn't meet it.
(15:29):
It's a little bit moreintricate in the Greco-Roman
world because they have kudos.
I don't know if you've heard theterm kudos.
Are you familiar with the termkudos?
So, hey, many kudos to you.
Well, that's a Greek term andyou're saying these are positive
(15:51):
attributes that you want tohave.
Kudos is a positive attributesthat you want to have, versus
ados, which is a negativeattribute that you don't want to
be associated with, which iskind of funny.
We use that term.
(16:12):
Oh, kudos to you for doing that.
Again, that's a Greek referencefrom aristotelian philosophy,
um and but yeah, so we, we havethat kind of philosophy, um from
from aristotle coming throughuh, and then that informs uh, of
(16:32):
course, many would say thatthat informs the early churches
understanding, understanding ofshame, even though they're also
pulling from the word of God,they're pulling from Paul and
First Corinthians and his use ofshame there.
They're pulling, of course,from the Hebrew world and the
(16:53):
use of shame in the OldTestament.
We can get into kind of theearly Christian.
But I just want to stop anyquestions, any thoughts based on
what we've talked about.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Yeah, I would just want to ask we're getting a
little bit into, I guess, someof the historical uses of shame
and from different cultures,different culture, what would be
, I guess?
What are the?
Well, I want to ask you aboutcontroversies, but I guess let's
get into, like the, thechristians and early church, how
did they talk about shame andwhat its role was theologically?
Speaker 3 (17:28):
and then from there let's get into some of the
historical controversies withshame and guilt yeah, you know,
and that's kind of kind of feedsquickly into it when you start
talking about the early church.
Um, because you, you obviouslyhave very strong differences
early on and in some theologicaltraditions, you know, you get
the greek orthodox uh comingfrom athanasius and uh, you
(17:52):
gotta, you know, you have thisline coming out of augustinian
theology and augustine is, he'skind of the hated, he's the
hated dude.
The early church fathers usedshame and they didn't define it
really well, but they used it.
You know again, they kind ofused it like the Old Testament
(18:12):
uses it.
Shame, I want, may shame comeupon those who do not follow
God's word, and shame on thedude that's saying that the
Trinitarian God is not thecorrect God.
You know, shame, shame on them,and may the Lord save us from
shame.
So, you know again, that'sAthanasius, that's Irenaeus,
(18:37):
those are the kind of references.
The shame that you get fromthere is there's not a, a
systematic understanding.
It's not until you get uh againto like aristotle um, I'm not
aristotle, but augustine thatyou start to see a more
systematic engagement, at leastin my, in my reading, uh, with
shame and kind of defining whatthat is.
Um, that said, you do have thatgreek, um eastern orthodox
(19:03):
tradition of theosis right, andthis is where you kind of get a
bit of a break in some ways.
Um, you got the augustineunderstanding that shame is like
a punishment, uh, for lust.
So in the garden, um, they sin,eve sins, um, they see them,
(19:29):
their nakedness, and and we'regonna get, we're gonna get and
sam probably knows where I'mgoing here, maybe with your
studies but you, you augustine,is saying the reason why shame
exists is because, all of asudden, adam can't control his,
you know, his member, his sexualmember, right, and and it's not
(19:52):
, it's not conducting itselfaccording to his will.
And aug Augustine, this kind ofdefines a lot of the way that
people have reacted to shame inreference to Christianity over
the years philosophers,psychologists, the counseling
community.
They look at what Augustine didand they, most of the time,
(20:14):
they hate it Because they'regetting understanding that
augustine's whole view of shameis built around, um, around lust
, around sex.
I was gonna ask you.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Yeah, I was gonna don't mind me interjecting there
it does seem so for ouraudience who, uh, maybe not from
familiar with church history ortheology.
I can just imagine some of themlistening to be like what is
theosis and who is Augustine?
So, augustine being a, I guesshe's considered the last church
father of you know, he lived inthe late fourth century, early
(20:50):
fifth century, and he's one ofthe foremost theologians in
Christianity.
And I think you know wementioned guilt and guilt and
shame or, um sorry, honor andshame versus guilt and innocence
earlier, and you mentioned somebooks that have been written.
There's a really famous book,uh, by Roland Mueller, who, uh,
(21:12):
and it's called guilt, it'scalled, uh, honor and shame and
it's a, it's a missions book.
Lots of missionaries love toread this book.
I had to read it, yeah, I wasan intern and he essentially
talks about how a lot of ourtheology is built around guilt
and innocence and we have a hardtime relating the gospel to
honor and shame cultures andwhat you were alluding to with,
(21:34):
uh, ancient semitic cultures,like the hebrews.
They're built around honor andshame.
Modern islamic cultures arebuilt around honor and shame.
Modern Islamic cultures arebuilt around honor and shame.
But the West that's informed byGreco-Roman philosophy and to a
large extent Augustinianthought from Augustine, is very
much steeped in guilt andinnocence.
(21:55):
Thinking in terms of ourrelationship with God, is it
based on guilt and innocence orhonor and shame?
So you know, augustine, I thinkis really impactful for moving.
Maybe I want to know what yourthoughts on this moving
Christianity.
If the early church fathers areusing shame a lot, it seems
(22:18):
like Augustine shifts the focusto guilt and innocence.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
He talks about.
You know, again, it's not likehe doesn't talk about shame, he
does, he just paints it.
He paints it in.
And again, it's not that hedoesn't understand that it is a
positive.
It can be positive in the factthat it is a warning sign, it is
(22:44):
a penalty, it is a repercussionof doing something bad that
makes you need to repent.
So Gaston talks about that inCity of God, about that in city
of god, um, and then, of course,he gets on some interesting
conversations and confessionsand talking about some of his
friends that are dealing withthe idea of shame and, uh,
(23:08):
wanting to pursue.
Really, when he talks about hisfriends, uh, working through
shame, um, that's probably whatI would see as the most fruitful
, because they're talking abouthow it is this shame feeling
that they feel about who theywere outside of Christ that
(23:28):
drives them towards contrition,that drives them towards
repentance, and I'm like, oh,that's good, but over in City of
God, augustine is just allabout, yeah, shame comes from
lust and you shouldn't feel anylust at all and so, a good
Christian, the only reasonyou're feeling shame is because
(23:53):
you still have that lust withyou, and you shouldn't have that
lust, even with your wife.
You shouldn't have that feelingof lust with you.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
I mean's where people are like what the you've been
smoking crack yeah, do you thinkaugustine is really influenced
by that because of his own past?
It's.
It seems that he is reallydealing with the guilt of his
own, his own past and sexualpromiscuity.
Speaker 3 (24:16):
Yeah I think.
So I think there's a bit ofthat there where he's
overreacting, if you will, it'sinformed, it's kind of a subplot
, uh that he's, he's, he's usingand because, again, you do see
him use it in a different wayelsewhere, but it's pretty
prominent in the city of god,but in terms of, like, say,
athanasius, and this is acompletely different stream.
(24:37):
Uh and in, and the writers ofeastern orthodox and their
saints and their writers, um,they get into this theosis which
is becoming christ, becominglike christ, becoming
deification, or they're becomingso much like christ that they
are becoming a god, lower g,right and um, shame for them is
(25:02):
is the shame that jesus enduredon the cross.
So it is shame for them wouldbe a formative experience,
emotion that they feel, that onecan feel and should feel and
should be okay with feeling, inin moderation, as it pertains to
(25:27):
you taking on unjust burdensthat are not you, whether they
be accusations or whether theybe persecutions for who you are,
and you kind of just got to ownthat because Jesus owned it on
the cross.
So that is their positiveconception of shame.
(25:49):
Does everybody still have atoxic definition of shame?
In terms of toxic shame thatthey say is completely bad and
disabling.
And yes, they do.
Everybody's going to come outwith that version of shame, as
do I, where we say, yes, there'salways a toxic shame, but the
(26:09):
positive view from that EasternOrthodox tradition that comes
out of, you know, as deep asAthanasius, is that that shame.
I am owning the shame thatJesus owned on the cross and I
that is a part of my becominglike Jesus in that sense, and
(26:32):
that's a completely differentstream, right, that's, that's a.
You know, I could spend mywhole dissertation on that.
I'm not going to, but I could.
It's just a whole a that I'mnot going to, but I could.
It's just a whole other stream.
But then you've got Aquinas Timanother big name, right and
Aquinas and the passions andshamefacedness.
And yes, he was very influencedby Aristotle and so he's
(27:00):
interacting with Aristotle allthe time in his Summa and he's
talking about shame-facednessand how a person that's seeking
to become a virtuous person butthat is not quite a virtuous
person there yet shame is goingto be good for that person to
feel, because they need to knowwhen they're when they're
violating god's laws, they needto know when they are being
(27:23):
someone they're not supposed tobe.
But just like aristotle,aquinas would say it's not a
virtue, and and a virtuousperson should never feel it.
Um, because they are, they arebeyond it in their maturity,
their spiritual maturity, if youwill.
They're a virtuous person, theydon't need to feel it anymore.
(27:45):
So it's only the young.
So both Aquinas and Aristotlewould say it's the young naive
out there, sown his wild oats.
That guy, whether he's aChristian or not, he needs to be
feeling some shame, mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
All right.
So we've dumped a load ofconcepts and names on our
audience.
Tell us this what are some ofthese controversies that we've
alluded to?
Historical, theologicalcontroversies, and the next few
minutes I think we'll wrap upthe episode and go into part two
about current and historicalarguments about guilt and shame.
(28:25):
So what are some of thecontroversies throughout history
dealing with guilt and shame?
You've mentioned some streamsof thought.
Yeah, this yeah, bonhoeffer.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
bonhoeffer would be kind of the last and the kind of
mohicans, if you will.
Um, that, who is that?
Um, dietrich bonhoeffer?
Uh, right, the, the in NaziGermany who revolted against, of
course, the Nazis and was anextremely brilliant theologian
(29:01):
and interacted a lot withEuropean philosophers, european
philosophers.
But Bonhoeffer had aninteresting take, and this is
where the controversy is therewith all the ones I just
mentioned the controversy, ofcourse, with Augustine.
Most pastors are going to steerfar away from Augustine we can
(29:23):
get into that conversation morelater on but they're going to
steer far away from that.
But Bonhoeffer says that shameis actually a testimony, a
covering that testifies to ourdisunity with God and it's
necessary to stay there.
If we lose it, then we lose ourability to remember that we are
(29:47):
.
We are, uh, disunited with Godand others, and so shame serves
as a consistent, permanentreminder that we are not on good
terms, we are not unified withGod and with others.
And in a and yes, bonhoefferwas was influenced by German
(30:09):
idealism and a guy named MaxThaler, and shame serves as a
protective mechanism in some oftheir writings, and so
Bonhoeffer does use it.
In reference to that protectivemechanism.
I put on clothes to cover myselfto that protective mechanism.
I put on clothes to covermyself.
I advert my eyes to protect myidentity, because you can't look
(30:34):
too much into my soul If Istare.
The only people that you stareinto the eyes of besides me, of
course, tim, is your loved one,is your wife.
You look intently, but that's avery rare exception.
You don't want to show yourselfbecause you're a broken person
(31:06):
and you are oscillating, if youwill, between this person that
wants desperately to be unitedwith your creator and this
person that knows that youcannot, and and so you're you.
Shame serves as a kind of acomforter and yet also a
testimony to the fact that youwere this side of heaven.
Uh, you're.
You're never going to becompletely whole, um, and even,
yes, we can kind of achieve someunity with christ through faith
(31:26):
in this life.
But we're still wrestling withthe fact that our bodies are not
where they need to be, not whatwe want them to be.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
We're still hoping for a life that's beyond this
broken, sinful, lustful,arrogant, disobedient, angry
person that we, we strugglebeing so as I, as I listen to
you, it sounds like even amongthe history of theology, you
(31:59):
have several different uses ortakes on shame and, just to put
this in terms of relevance topeople who are listening, we
live in a culture that, as meand Sam have said many times,
like it's a shameless culture.
They don't want to feel shame.
Nobody wants to feel shametoday because they think shame
is bad or if you shame someone,you're arrogant.
(32:20):
You shouldn't be shaming anyone, you shouldn't be ashamed of
who you are.
But in the history of Christiantheology, shame is a very
important subject.
If you're just listening toJason, you can hear that we have
at least five that I wascounting.
One is Augustine and one is,you know, augustine and his.
(32:40):
Take this uh a, a a sexualreading of that.
But even if you don't take thesexual reading, it still says in
Genesis three that they, theysaw themselves, they were naked
and they were ashamed.
So there is a shame, there'ssome shame element there.
Um, you have uh Aquinas, thomasAquinas, who lives in the
(33:07):
middle ages, who uh thinks that.
I guess, if I could summarizethat shame is shame is this
mechanism to move in aspiritually or morally immature
person into virtue and once youachieve virtue, then you don't
need to feel shame anymore.
Uh, we, I probably disagreewith that.
(33:28):
I think you probably do too,but at least it's there.
The early church fathers, atleast in the Eastern side, and
their take on as we become morelike Christ.
Part of becoming like Christ isaccepting I guess accepting
shame that isn't yours,accepting Christ took on our
(33:49):
shame on the cross and to becomelike Christ, you take on shame
that isn't yours.
I like what John Piper says, orrelated to this.
He says you will be shamed forthe gospel, but you do not need
to be ashamed of the gospel andsince, of being a Christian,
someone might shame you.
You accept the shame quoteunquote, the shame of being a
(34:13):
christian, but you don't have tobe ashamed of that right.
Um, and I like.
I like how you bonhoeffer Ididn't know this about him but
this idea that shame always hasto be there, because we're
always, we always fall short ofgod, and so there's some sense
in which we wear shame, we'refully aware of our own
shortcomings, and that itselfproduces a shame in us that we
(34:35):
can't wait to be.
We can't wait to be with thelord and separated from this
fallen body.
I mean, yeah, it kind ofreminds you of roman 7, where
paul says that that what I wantto do, I I don't do, and that
that's right, I do, I don't wantto do, I I don't do.
That that's right, I do, Idon't want to do.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
Yeah, that's totally right.
That's a good reference.
Yeah, yeah and that and that,just to just to give you the
reference on that.
It's out of ethics, the theDietrich Bonhoeffer is out of
his ethics book.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
So yeah, yeah, all right.
So so it seems like you know ifwe're coming to the end of this
episode, just that we've gottena really broad snapshot of just
how shame has been used indifferent cultures and societies
.
What?
What's the what's like the keycontroversy?
Going into the current debateand we'll we'll do part two on
(35:21):
the current debates about guiltand shame, but what's like the
key controversy?
Speaker 3 (35:36):
like the key controversy man.
The key controversy is is justthe observation of what um our
contemporary world sees orblames shame for right, the, the
suicide, the hatred of self,the loss of hope.
It's that recognition.
(35:57):
They label shame as being theperpetrator of that, of all
those bad things.
And that's where the in theChristian world again, as Sam
probably knows full well and I'dlove to hear any feedback he
has from his counselingpsychology studies that's
(36:19):
something that the Christianworld and pastors struggle with
a lot.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
That's good All right , hmm.
Hmm, that's good.
Yeah, I did have a commentcause you guys have referenced
it a couple of times the passagein Genesis three and you know a
lot of.
When I first started the firstpodcast, I had a Genesis of
shame podcast and it wasregarding that chapter and the
(36:43):
very first emotion that Adam andEve experienced was that aspect
of shame, right.
So the way that I looked atthat passage was what was there
before the fall?
Complete vulnerability,relationship with God,
relationship with each other.
And after the fall, thosethings were affected.
Right, and it's interestingbecause, if we think about
modern times, what do peopleseek to do?
(37:06):
Most is to be vulnerable and tobe fully seen and fully known,
and shame keeps them away fromthat.
So it's interesting that, as youwere discussing the read the
ways in which shame was was usedbefore.
It was always a way ofreestablishing our relationship,
either with the, with theculture or with God.
(37:29):
So, yeah, it was just reallyinteresting.
So I guess I've really informedmy theology around this aspect
of shame.
But one of the ways that in thecounseling world, they'll talk
about shame is this aspect of.
It's a signal that something iswrong with your relationship
and in our case, we're talkingabout this.
There's something wrong withour relationship with god.
How do I fix it?
(37:50):
And then, hearing about allthese other um philosophers and
theologians, it's been really,really good to hear.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Thanks for sharing that, yeah, all right.
Well, I think that's a goodplace to wrap up part one, and,
uh, we will come back for parttwo and discuss the current
topic of the current argumentover shame and Jason had just
alluded to it that that so muchof the world's pain, mental
health issues, um, differentmoral and ethical issues are
(38:19):
blamed on this, this idea ofshame, and where shame comes
from.
So if we can excrete, x,exercise shame from our lives,
then perhaps we can cure societyof all the ills and evils that
we experience, right?
So, let's, let's get into parttwo then, and just a minute.
But well, I guess, for ouraudience listening, this will be
(38:40):
next week, but we will see youall again for part two of this
series.
Until next time, give us alisten Spotify, apple podcast
music.
You all again, uh, for part twoof this series.
Until next time, give us alisten spotify, apple podcast
music.
And, uh, we're on youtube nowand all the other things that
we're doing.
Shout out to brian, our editor.
We always thank him for doingthe hard behind the scenes work.
(39:01):
I really appreciate him.
Other than that, we will seeyou next week, all right.
All right, everyone, welcome back to the Psych and
Theo podcast.
We are here with a specialguest.
His name is Jason Glenn.
He's a colleague of mine in thearts and sciences department at
Liberty University.
He teaches ethics alongside meand he's a good friend and we've
(00:22):
been colleagues for a number ofyears now, and what we're going
to talk about today is thetopic of shame and guilt in our
culture.
Now, if you've been listening tome and Sam for a little bit,
you've noticed that we've talkedabout shame and other topics
like that recently.
This is a little bit differentof a spin on what we're going to
(00:43):
be covering, because this ismore academic and theological.
So we've covered this from apsychological standpoint and now
we're going to be covering thisfrom a philosophical and
theological standpoint, andJason is an expert on this topic
.
He's actually working on hisdissertation on this topic.
So I'll let Jason just tell alittle bit about himself as we
(01:05):
get going, before I do Sam, isthere anything that our audience
needs to know about in advanceupcoming episodes or where they
can find us, anything like that?
Speaker 2 (01:16):
No, I think you guys will be excited about this
three-part series.
We're covering three topicswithin this aspect of shame and
guilt, so I think you guys willenjoy these conversations.
I think Tim and I have beenlooking back at a number of our
previous episodes and seeingwhat's been of most interest to
you guys, so just be ready forthat.
We're probably going to godeeper in a lot of these other
(01:38):
topics that we've discussed and,yeah, be excited, as always.
You know.
Feel free to send your requestthrough Instagram or send us a
message at psychandtheo atgmailcom.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
And yeah, we always look forward to integrating new
topics into the podcast, so keepfollowing with that mentioned,
this is going to be athree-parter series, and so
we're going to break this downinto digestible episodes so that
you can listen to them and youknow at your own pace.
(02:13):
But the first part is going tobe about historical,
philosophical and theologicalfoundations and controversies
around guilt and shame, and thenpart two will be on current and
historical arguments aboutguilt and shame, and then part
three will be about Christianversus various cultural postures
and applications when it comesto shame.
(02:33):
Now, that's a mouthful ofthings, but Jason is going to
flesh all that out for us.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
I thought you guys were going to do it.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
All right, so let's get started.
Jason, why don't you tell theaudience who you are and just
tell a little bit about yourself?
Speaker 3 (02:51):
Yeah Again, jason Glenn, married for 20, 25 plus
years to my beautiful wifeAshley, who's a photographer
here in the Lynchburg area.
Four daughters, two of them Oneof them's already graduated
from Liberty, one's graduatingin May from Liberty and one is
(03:12):
currently a freshman at Liberty.
And then we got a young onethat's still in junior high.
So we run the gamut.
I have been, as Tim has said,I've been working on my PhD in
ethics and systematic theology,with an emphasis in shame and
kind of the cognitive emotions,as we would say, since 2017.
(03:34):
I've been working on this thingfor a long time.
Hopefully I'll finish it up inthe next couple of years.
Got a lot of writing to do.
Uh, you know, a lot is under mybelt, um, and I do it at a
school in belgium called etflubin, evangelical theological
faculty, lubin.
Uh, good, good evangelicalseminary over there outside
(03:56):
brussels.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
So, um, yeah, I think that's that's about it okay, uh
, so tell us, how did you becomeinterested in this topic of
guilt and shame?
Speaker 3 (04:08):
yeah, and again, that's a good question.
I um, I think I was, I was inapologetics, uh, for a while
prior to this.
So I was at a school calledbrian college in east tennessee,
called Bryan College in EastTennessee, which is known for
its worldview programs, and Ireally loved Romans 1 and the
(04:31):
testimony that every human beingis without an excuse in terms
of their recognition that theyare not right with God,
recognition that they are notright with God.
And so I think that and I wasbuilding out curriculum for this
worldview program we would goto schools and Christian schools
(04:53):
and youth groups and we'dpresent these apologetic
programs and I wanted to presentsomething to the effect that
would engage these students onthe theological reality that
they know better, that there'ssomething in their heart that is
(05:15):
telling them, something intheir mind, something in their
soul that is speaking to them,that's saying you're not right
with your creator.
And again, I find that inromans, chapter one, and I I
wanted to, I wanted to studysomething related to that in
terms of philosophy.
I had read some work by um, aguy named emmanuel levinas, an
(05:39):
old french, french philosopher,jew, jewish philosopher, and he
talked about the ethics of theother and how just the very
nature of the great other andthe other human being, the other
, called me into immediately aresponsible relationship and
made me feel like again, I owedsomebody something and that I
(06:07):
was ethically responsible forsomething outside of myself.
And so I was like, okay, I'llrun with that in terms of Romans
1.
And so I went to this, got intothis program in Europe, in
Belgium, and the guy that Iwanted to study with wasn't
there.
He was actually dealing withcancer at the time.
And so they're like, yeah, wecan't do that, but here's a
(06:28):
reading list and just startgoing through it and seeing what
comes up.
But I started reading throughBonhoeffer and then another
American philosopher,contemporary to our time, martha
(06:48):
Nussbaum, and I'm reading bothof them at the same time and
both of them touched on shame.
And then, of course, bonhoeffer, in this book I was reading,
which was a commentary onGenesis 1 through 3, touched on,
of course, shame and the garden.
And then I was reading throughNussbaum and she talked about
(07:10):
how she didn't like shame,didn't see a good value in shame
, and that guilt was better.
And I was like I don't likethat and I think Bonhoeffer
agrees with me.
And so I was like okay, I thinkI'm going to pursue that the
topic and that correlated againwith that idea that something's
(07:31):
going on in each and every oneof us that should be pointing us
to the fact that we're notright with God.
So I think that's whatoriginally kind of got me going
down the shame track.
Speaker 1 (07:42):
Okay, okay, that's a good answer, all right, so let's
get into this first subject ofthe historical, philosophical
and theological foundations andcontroversies of shame versus
guilt.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
Yeah, I was hoping you guys would help me out with
that part.
You know I've done my part andfeel free to stop me.
And you know, input I don'tlike that term, expert Tim,
especially when it comes toshame, because that's the thing
about shame.
I've got a buddy you know thatjust graduated at the same
(08:16):
seminary I'm at.
His name is Juergen Schultz.
He's a German pastor and nowhe's the head of the German
seminary evangelical, good,conservative, bible believing
seminary.
If you can believe there is one, there is.
It actually is um, but he is.
He did his dissertation just now, uh, on shame, the, the terms
(08:42):
for and the role of shame in inum semitic languages and a
particular time frame in jewishhistory, and he is an expert on
the hebrew terminology for shameand um a little bit on how it
(09:05):
relates with guilt.
But that is just like onelittle slice of the pie of shame
and I couldn't touch that witha 10-foot pole man.
I would not want to be in hisrealm of what he's studying in
shame because it's completelyfixed on biblical languages and
Semitic traditions and I just Iwas like, ah, I don't want to
(09:35):
get into that.
So all that to say is it justis a really broad, broad, broad
spectrum.
It covers a lot of ground andyou know a lot of.
That is testimony to the factthat it has affected every
society throughout history.
In my own personal reading, Ithink Egypt I can't remember
which dynasty it was, but it wasreally early on that was one of
(09:58):
the earliest writings of thereports recorded, writings
concerning shame, and it wastheir tradition of shaming
people in public and like stockstype of thing, and that's like
one of the early Egyptiandynasties that that was recorded
(10:20):
in.
So, yeah, it goes way back, way, way way back and and and we as
christians, of course, cantestify to why that.
Of course that is right.
We've got a meta narrative forthat, um, but yeah, of course it
starts out in in uh, in the oldtestament, uh, for us as
christians, and where we we getour information.
(10:42):
Bush is the word in Hebrew thatyou'll find as the stem for all
the most of the shame words thatyou run into and man, you run
into them all over the placeJeremiah, isaiah, of course, in
Genesis, it's Psalm all overPsalms.
Talking about this is worthy ofshame.
(11:06):
Lord, god, shame them.
I don't want to feel shame, Iam ashamed, you know.
Shame them, lord, because theyare my enemy.
So you get a really, really,really strong foundation in the
Old Testament for the use ofshame.
(11:28):
And of course the experts wouldsay, oh, of course, because
they're a shame-honored culture,right, and that's another whole
debate.
I mean, countless books havebeen written on the whole idea
of shame on our cultures andwhether Christians should even
mess with that, adopt it orapply it or recognize it.
(11:51):
Or is it actually unjust toeven engage with a shame on our
culture at all on their terms?
Speaker 1 (12:02):
But yeah, the old term yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Yeah, I guess one question that came up as you
were talking about that.
You know we're talking aboutshame in these different
cultures and shame in the moderntimes.
I guess one place to startcould be from your studies and
what you've been working on howdo you define shame and how do
you differentiate that fromguilt?
Because I think that plays intothis aspect of controversies is
what is the reason for shame,what's the effect of shame, and
(12:28):
so on.
So how do you define those?
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Yeah, that's a.
You know you don't want to getinto session two, we don't want
to.
You don't want to mess withsession two here.
Don't don't mess that up, sam.
But you know I, you know you'vegot to be careful with shame and
how you define it.
I think it's one of thosethings where't want to be
(13:16):
identified with and we feelharmed, we feel pain because we
feel like we have seen a versionof ourselves or that others.
And this is kind of again, partof the definition is that it
doesn't have to.
(13:37):
It does have to involve you.
It has to involve your ownversion of yourself in your head
, but it can be coming fromsomeone else's glance at you and
or it can be coming from athought that you have about an
expectation that you've ownedfrom the culture that you're in.
(13:59):
So there's got to be an objectoutside of yourself in some ways
, but it does always have toinvolve your own view of
yourself, so positive, we wouldsay.
There's a positive valence,there's a positive calculation
about who you are and this iswhy and we can get into this
(14:21):
down the road but this is whypride is inherent or, excuse me,
shame is inherently connectedto pride in some ways, because
you have a view of yourself thatis being violated, um, whether
justly or unjustly.
Again, that's a, that's a wholeanother part of the
conversation, um, but you knowthese aren't new.
(14:43):
New, you know definitions.
Aristotle, uh, nickelbackianethics, he, he lays out his
version again, kind of says thesame thing.
It's a painful emotion that'sbased on fear.
He's talking about Ados and thefact that your fear of losing
(15:06):
face again back to thatshame-honor culture aspect.
So you know, you get the samething in the Greco-Roman world
that you have in the Hebrewworld.
You get this ideal, virtuousunderstanding of who you should
be and you don't meet it.
You're shown a version ofyourself that doesn't meet it.
(15:29):
It's a little bit moreintricate in the Greco-Roman
world because they have kudos.
I don't know if you've heard theterm kudos.
Are you familiar with the termkudos?
So, hey, many kudos to you.
Well, that's a Greek term andyou're saying these are positive
(15:51):
attributes that you want tohave.
Kudos is a positive attributesthat you want to have, versus
ados, which is a negativeattribute that you don't want to
be associated with, which iskind of funny.
We use that term.
(16:12):
Oh, kudos to you for doing that.
Again, that's a Greek referencefrom aristotelian philosophy,
um and but yeah, so we, we havethat kind of philosophy, um from
from aristotle coming throughuh, and then that informs uh, of
(16:32):
course, many would say thatthat informs the early churches
understanding, understanding ofshame, even though they're also
pulling from the word of God,they're pulling from Paul and
First Corinthians and his use ofshame there.
They're pulling, of course,from the Hebrew world and the
(16:53):
use of shame in the OldTestament.
We can get into kind of theearly Christian.
But I just want to stop anyquestions, any thoughts based on
what we've talked about.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Yeah, I would just want to ask we're getting a
little bit into, I guess, someof the historical uses of shame
and from different cultures,different culture, what would be
, I guess?
What are the?
Well, I want to ask you aboutcontroversies, but I guess let's
get into, like the, thechristians and early church, how
did they talk about shame andwhat its role was theologically?
Speaker 3 (17:28):
and then from there let's get into some of the
historical controversies withshame and guilt yeah, you know,
and that's kind of kind of feedsquickly into it when you start
talking about the early church.
Um, because you, you obviouslyhave very strong differences
early on and in some theologicaltraditions, you know, you get
the greek orthodox uh comingfrom athanasius and uh, you
(17:52):
gotta, you know, you have thisline coming out of augustinian
theology and augustine is, he'skind of the hated, he's the
hated dude.
The early church fathers usedshame and they didn't define it
really well, but they used it.
You know again, they kind ofused it like the Old Testament
(18:12):
uses it.
Shame, I want, may shame comeupon those who do not follow
God's word, and shame on thedude that's saying that the
Trinitarian God is not thecorrect God.
You know, shame, shame on them,and may the Lord save us from
shame.
So, you know again, that'sAthanasius, that's Irenaeus,
(18:37):
those are the kind of references.
The shame that you get fromthere is there's not a, a
systematic understanding.
It's not until you get uh againto like aristotle um, I'm not
aristotle, but augustine thatyou start to see a more
systematic engagement, at leastin my, in my reading, uh, with
shame and kind of defining whatthat is.
Um, that said, you do have thatgreek, um eastern orthodox
(19:03):
tradition of theosis right, andthis is where you kind of get a
bit of a break in some ways.
Um, you got the augustineunderstanding that shame is like
a punishment, uh, for lust.
So in the garden, um, they sin,eve sins, um, they see them,
(19:29):
their nakedness, and and we'regonna get, we're gonna get and
sam probably knows where I'mgoing here, maybe with your
studies but you, you augustine,is saying the reason why shame
exists is because, all of asudden, adam can't control his,
you know, his member, his sexualmember, right, and and it's not
(19:52):
, it's not conducting itselfaccording to his will.
And aug Augustine, this kind ofdefines a lot of the way that
people have reacted to shame inreference to Christianity over
the years philosophers,psychologists, the counseling
community.
They look at what Augustine didand they, most of the time,
(20:14):
they hate it Because they'regetting understanding that
augustine's whole view of shameis built around, um, around lust
, around sex.
I was gonna ask you.
Speaker 1 (20:26):
Yeah, I was gonna don't mind me interjecting there
it does seem so for ouraudience who, uh, maybe not from
familiar with church history ortheology.
I can just imagine some of themlistening to be like what is
theosis and who is Augustine?
So, augustine being a, I guesshe's considered the last church
father of you know, he lived inthe late fourth century, early
(20:50):
fifth century, and he's one ofthe foremost theologians in
Christianity.
And I think you know wementioned guilt and guilt and
shame or, um sorry, honor andshame versus guilt and innocence
earlier, and you mentioned somebooks that have been written.
There's a really famous book,uh, by Roland Mueller, who, uh,
(21:12):
and it's called guilt, it'scalled, uh, honor and shame and
it's a, it's a missions book.
Lots of missionaries love toread this book.
I had to read it, yeah, I wasan intern and he essentially
talks about how a lot of ourtheology is built around guilt
and innocence and we have a hardtime relating the gospel to
honor and shame cultures andwhat you were alluding to with,
(21:34):
uh, ancient semitic cultures,like the hebrews.
They're built around honor andshame.
Modern islamic cultures arebuilt around honor and shame.
Modern Islamic cultures arebuilt around honor and shame.
But the West that's informed byGreco-Roman philosophy and to a
large extent Augustinianthought from Augustine, is very
much steeped in guilt andinnocence.
(21:55):
Thinking in terms of ourrelationship with God, is it
based on guilt and innocence orhonor and shame?
So you know, augustine, I thinkis really impactful for moving.
Maybe I want to know what yourthoughts on this moving
Christianity.
If the early church fathers areusing shame a lot, it seems
(22:18):
like Augustine shifts the focusto guilt and innocence.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
He talks about.
You know, again, it's not likehe doesn't talk about shame, he
does, he just paints it.
He paints it in.
And again, it's not that hedoesn't understand that it is a
positive.
It can be positive in the factthat it is a warning sign, it is
(22:44):
a penalty, it is a repercussionof doing something bad that
makes you need to repent.
So Gaston talks about that inCity of God, about that in city
of god, um, and then, of course,he gets on some interesting
conversations and confessionsand talking about some of his
friends that are dealing withthe idea of shame and, uh,
(23:08):
wanting to pursue.
Really, when he talks about hisfriends, uh, working through
shame, um, that's probably whatI would see as the most fruitful
, because they're talking abouthow it is this shame feeling
that they feel about who theywere outside of Christ that
(23:28):
drives them towards contrition,that drives them towards
repentance, and I'm like, oh,that's good, but over in City of
God, augustine is just allabout, yeah, shame comes from
lust and you shouldn't feel anylust at all and so, a good
Christian, the only reasonyou're feeling shame is because
(23:53):
you still have that lust withyou, and you shouldn't have that
lust, even with your wife.
You shouldn't have that feelingof lust with you.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
I mean's where people are like what the you've been
smoking crack yeah, do you thinkaugustine is really influenced
by that because of his own past?
It's.
It seems that he is reallydealing with the guilt of his
own, his own past and sexualpromiscuity.
Speaker 3 (24:16):
Yeah I think.
So I think there's a bit ofthat there where he's
overreacting, if you will, it'sinformed, it's kind of a subplot
, uh that he's, he's, he's usingand because, again, you do see
him use it in a different wayelsewhere, but it's pretty
prominent in the city of god,but in terms of, like, say,
athanasius, and this is acompletely different stream.
(24:37):
Uh and in, and the writers ofeastern orthodox and their
saints and their writers, um,they get into this theosis which
is becoming christ, becominglike christ, becoming
deification, or they're becomingso much like christ that they
are becoming a god, lower g,right and um, shame for them is
(25:02):
is the shame that jesus enduredon the cross.
So it is shame for them wouldbe a formative experience,
emotion that they feel, that onecan feel and should feel and
should be okay with feeling, inin moderation, as it pertains to
(25:27):
you taking on unjust burdensthat are not you, whether they
be accusations or whether theybe persecutions for who you are,
and you kind of just got to ownthat because Jesus owned it on
the cross.
So that is their positiveconception of shame.
(25:49):
Does everybody still have atoxic definition of shame?
In terms of toxic shame thatthey say is completely bad and
disabling.
And yes, they do.
Everybody's going to come outwith that version of shame, as
do I, where we say, yes, there'salways a toxic shame, but the
(26:09):
positive view from that EasternOrthodox tradition that comes
out of, you know, as deep asAthanasius, is that that shame.
I am owning the shame thatJesus owned on the cross and I
that is a part of my becominglike Jesus in that sense, and
(26:32):
that's a completely differentstream, right, that's, that's a.
You know, I could spend mywhole dissertation on that.
I'm not going to, but I could.
It's just a whole a that I'mnot going to, but I could.
It's just a whole other stream.
But then you've got Aquinas Timanother big name, right and
Aquinas and the passions andshamefacedness.
And yes, he was very influencedby Aristotle and so he's
(27:00):
interacting with Aristotle allthe time in his Summa and he's
talking about shame-facednessand how a person that's seeking
to become a virtuous person butthat is not quite a virtuous
person there yet shame is goingto be good for that person to
feel, because they need to knowwhen they're when they're
violating god's laws, they needto know when they are being
(27:23):
someone they're not supposed tobe.
But just like aristotle,aquinas would say it's not a
virtue, and and a virtuousperson should never feel it.
Um, because they are, they arebeyond it in their maturity,
their spiritual maturity, if youwill.
They're a virtuous person, theydon't need to feel it anymore.
(27:45):
So it's only the young.
So both Aquinas and Aristotlewould say it's the young naive
out there, sown his wild oats.
That guy, whether he's aChristian or not, he needs to be
feeling some shame, mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
All right.
So we've dumped a load ofconcepts and names on our
audience.
Tell us this what are some ofthese controversies that we've
alluded to?
Historical, theologicalcontroversies, and the next few
minutes I think we'll wrap upthe episode and go into part two
about current and historicalarguments about guilt and shame.
(28:25):
So what are some of thecontroversies throughout history
dealing with guilt and shame?
You've mentioned some streamsof thought.
Yeah, this yeah, bonhoeffer.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
bonhoeffer would be kind of the last and the kind of
mohicans, if you will.
Um, that, who is that?
Um, dietrich bonhoeffer?
Uh, right, the, the in NaziGermany who revolted against, of
course, the Nazis and was anextremely brilliant theologian
(29:01):
and interacted a lot withEuropean philosophers, european
philosophers.
But Bonhoeffer had aninteresting take, and this is
where the controversy is therewith all the ones I just
mentioned the controversy, ofcourse, with Augustine.
Most pastors are going to steerfar away from Augustine we can
(29:23):
get into that conversation morelater on but they're going to
steer far away from that.
But Bonhoeffer says that shameis actually a testimony, a
covering that testifies to ourdisunity with God and it's
necessary to stay there.
If we lose it, then we lose ourability to remember that we are
(29:47):
.
We are, uh, disunited with Godand others, and so shame serves
as a consistent, permanentreminder that we are not on good
terms, we are not unified withGod and with others.
And in a and yes, bonhoefferwas was influenced by German
(30:09):
idealism and a guy named MaxThaler, and shame serves as a
protective mechanism in some oftheir writings, and so
Bonhoeffer does use it.
In reference to that protectivemechanism.
I put on clothes to cover myselfto that protective mechanism.
I put on clothes to covermyself.
I advert my eyes to protect myidentity, because you can't look
(30:34):
too much into my soul If Istare.
The only people that you stareinto the eyes of besides me, of
course, tim, is your loved one,is your wife.
You look intently, but that's avery rare exception.
You don't want to show yourselfbecause you're a broken person
(31:06):
and you are oscillating, if youwill, between this person that
wants desperately to be unitedwith your creator and this
person that knows that youcannot, and and so you're you.
Shame serves as a kind of acomforter and yet also a
testimony to the fact that youwere this side of heaven.
Uh, you're.
You're never going to becompletely whole, um, and even,
yes, we can kind of achieve someunity with christ through faith
(31:26):
in this life.
But we're still wrestling withthe fact that our bodies are not
where they need to be, not whatwe want them to be.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
We're still hoping for a life that's beyond this
broken, sinful, lustful,arrogant, disobedient, angry
person that we, we strugglebeing so as I, as I listen to
you, it sounds like even amongthe history of theology, you
(31:59):
have several different uses ortakes on shame and, just to put
this in terms of relevance topeople who are listening, we
live in a culture that, as meand Sam have said many times,
like it's a shameless culture.
They don't want to feel shame.
Nobody wants to feel shametoday because they think shame
is bad or if you shame someone,you're arrogant.
(32:20):
You shouldn't be shaming anyone, you shouldn't be ashamed of
who you are.
But in the history of Christiantheology, shame is a very
important subject.
If you're just listening toJason, you can hear that we have
at least five that I wascounting.
One is Augustine and one is,you know, augustine and his.
(32:40):
Take this uh a, a a sexualreading of that.
But even if you don't take thesexual reading, it still says in
Genesis three that they, theysaw themselves, they were naked
and they were ashamed.
So there is a shame, there'ssome shame element there.
Um, you have uh Aquinas, thomasAquinas, who lives in the
(33:07):
middle ages, who uh thinks that.
I guess, if I could summarizethat shame is shame is this
mechanism to move in aspiritually or morally immature
person into virtue and once youachieve virtue, then you don't
need to feel shame anymore.
Uh, we, I probably disagreewith that.
(33:28):
I think you probably do too,but at least it's there.
The early church fathers, atleast in the Eastern side, and
their take on as we become morelike Christ.
Part of becoming like Christ isaccepting I guess accepting
shame that isn't yours,accepting Christ took on our
(33:49):
shame on the cross and to becomelike Christ, you take on shame
that isn't yours.
I like what John Piper says, orrelated to this.
He says you will be shamed forthe gospel, but you do not need
to be ashamed of the gospel andsince, of being a Christian,
someone might shame you.
You accept the shame quoteunquote, the shame of being a
(34:13):
christian, but you don't have tobe ashamed of that right.
Um, and I like.
I like how you bonhoeffer Ididn't know this about him but
this idea that shame always hasto be there, because we're
always, we always fall short ofgod, and so there's some sense
in which we wear shame, we'refully aware of our own
shortcomings, and that itselfproduces a shame in us that we
(34:35):
can't wait to be.
We can't wait to be with thelord and separated from this
fallen body.
I mean, yeah, it kind ofreminds you of roman 7, where
paul says that that what I wantto do, I I don't do, and that
that's right, I do, I don't wantto do, I I don't do.
That that's right, I do, Idon't want to do.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
Yeah, that's totally right.
That's a good reference.
Yeah, yeah and that and that,just to just to give you the
reference on that.
It's out of ethics, the theDietrich Bonhoeffer is out of
his ethics book.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
So yeah, yeah, all right.
So so it seems like you know ifwe're coming to the end of this
episode, just that we've gottena really broad snapshot of just
how shame has been used indifferent cultures and societies
.
What?
What's the what's like the keycontroversy?
Going into the current debateand we'll we'll do part two on
(35:21):
the current debates about guiltand shame, but what's like the
key controversy?
Speaker 3 (35:36):
like the key controversy man.
The key controversy is is justthe observation of what um our
contemporary world sees orblames shame for right, the, the
suicide, the hatred of self,the loss of hope.
It's that recognition.
(35:57):
They label shame as being theperpetrator of that, of all
those bad things.
And that's where the in theChristian world again, as Sam
probably knows full well and I'dlove to hear any feedback he
has from his counselingpsychology studies that's
(36:19):
something that the Christianworld and pastors struggle with
a lot.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
That's good All right , hmm.
Hmm, that's good.
Yeah, I did have a commentcause you guys have referenced
it a couple of times the passagein Genesis three and you know a
lot of.
When I first started the firstpodcast, I had a Genesis of
shame podcast and it wasregarding that chapter and the
(36:43):
very first emotion that Adam andEve experienced was that aspect
of shame, right.
So the way that I looked atthat passage was what was there
before the fall?
Complete vulnerability,relationship with God,
relationship with each other.
And after the fall, thosethings were affected.
Right, and it's interestingbecause, if we think about
modern times, what do peopleseek to do?
(37:06):
Most is to be vulnerable and tobe fully seen and fully known,
and shame keeps them away fromthat.
So it's interesting that, as youwere discussing the read the
ways in which shame was was usedbefore.
It was always a way ofreestablishing our relationship,
either with the, with theculture or with God.
(37:29):
So, yeah, it was just reallyinteresting.
So I guess I've really informedmy theology around this aspect
of shame.
But one of the ways that in thecounseling world, they'll talk
about shame is this aspect of.
It's a signal that something iswrong with your relationship
and in our case, we're talkingabout this.
There's something wrong withour relationship with god.
How do I fix it?
(37:50):
And then, hearing about allthese other um philosophers and
theologians, it's been really,really good to hear.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Thanks for sharing that, yeah, all right.
Well, I think that's a goodplace to wrap up part one, and,
uh, we will come back for parttwo and discuss the current
topic of the current argumentover shame and Jason had just
alluded to it that that so muchof the world's pain, mental
health issues, um, differentmoral and ethical issues are
(38:19):
blamed on this, this idea ofshame, and where shame comes
from.
So if we can excrete, x,exercise shame from our lives,
then perhaps we can cure societyof all the ills and evils that
we experience, right?
So, let's, let's get into parttwo then, and just a minute.
But well, I guess, for ouraudience listening, this will be
(38:40):
next week, but we will see youall again for part two of this
series.
Until next time, give us alisten Spotify, apple podcast
music.
You all again, uh, for part twoof this series.
Until next time, give us alisten spotify, apple podcast
music.
And, uh, we're on youtube nowand all the other things that
we're doing.
Shout out to brian, our editor.
We always thank him for doingthe hard behind the scenes work.
(39:01):
I really appreciate him.
Other than that, we will seeyou next week, all right.
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