April 15, 2025 • 36 mins
What happens when our culture rejects the very concept of shame while simultaneously wielding it as a weapon against those who hold different views? In this thought-provoking conclusion to our three-part series on guilt and shame, we explore the profound disconnect between modern attitudes toward moral emotions and the biblical understanding that offers redemptive clarity.
The conversation opens with a crucial question: what dangers arise when someone loses the ability to feel shame entirely? Through personal examples and theological insights, we examine how treating forgiveness as merely transactional—sin, apologize, repeat—creates a protective shield around hardened hearts rather than fostering genuine transformation. This pattern reveals why distinguishing between guilt (over actions) and shame (connected to identity) matters deeply for spiritual growth.
We navigate the delicate balance between toxic shame that destroys and healthy shame that leads to contrition. As one participant powerfully observes, "Jesus is reaching out with grace and forgiveness... but you've got to answer that with contrition." This biblical framework allows us to recognize when shame serves as a necessary moral compass and when it becomes a destructive force.
Perhaps most fascinating is our examination of how today's supposedly "shameless" culture actually overflows with shame—just redirected toward different targets. The same voices condemning shame will quickly shame others for holding unapproved opinions, creating new moral hierarchies without objective standards. Without a biblical foundation, we struggle to distinguish between shame that heals and shame that harms.
For anyone navigating complex feelings of guilt or shame, or for those seeking to understand how these emotions function in our spiritual lives, this episode offers profound insights that bridge psychology and theology. Join us as we discover how facing shame with biblical clarity can lead not to despair but to the contrition that transforms hearts and restores relationships.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
All right, everyone, welcome back to part three of
our series in Psych and Theo,and this is part three of our
series on guilt and shame.
We are with our colleague,jason Glenn and the first two
episodes we encourage you to goback and listen to those we talk
about the historical andtheological foundations of shame
and its uses throughout historyof shame and its uses
(00:28):
throughout history.
And then part two, we talkedabout the current debates about
shame and whether it's useful ornot, whether it's good or not,
and then now we're going to getinto some contemporary
applications Christian versusnon-Christian applications of
shame.
And you know, we ended endedpart two.
Jason, you were making a reallygood point about the dangers
that occur when someone deniesshame or loses the ability to
(00:56):
feel shame, and I think that'sprobably a real danger in our
culture, a culture that, uh, aswe said in the previous episode,
is literally or metaphoricallydemonizing shame and wants
nothing to do with shame.
So let's get into that, like,pick up where we left off.
What is the danger?
And this I guess I'm going toask this as a devil's advocate
(01:18):
question or maybe for ouraudience, who isn't quite fully
tracking with what we're talkingabout, they might say okay, so
what?
So some people look at guiltand some people look at shame
and you know if it moves theirrelation, moves them to a better
relationship with God.
You know what's the difference.
You know, like, what's the bigdeal with making these
(01:41):
distinctions between guilt andshame, or or seeing them as
connected?
What's the big deal about allof this what?
What are the dangers?
And not having a what, what Ithink each of us are kind of
alluding to, and that's abiblical view of shame.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Yeah, even to just reference my own experience and
I did, I did, you know, I didreference it to a degree um, for
those three and a half years orso that I was, I was um sowing
my wild oats and and fulfillingdesires of the flesh and um
being disobedient, I was askingfor forgiveness a lot.
(02:24):
Uh, I would feel bad, I'd feelguilty for a second right, I'd
ask for forgiveness and I'm good.
And then the next day I wouldgo get drunk, wake up with a
hangover, ask for forgiveness,I'm good, and go sleep with my
(02:45):
girlfriend.
Ask for forgiveness, I'm good.
Right, um, I should have feltashamed of who I was being in in
that moment um of my life,rather than simply, uh, like
(03:18):
transactional relationship,right to walk with the spirit in
newness of life and being who Iwas supposed to be and
rejecting who I was no longer tobe.
And so when I got to thatsenior year and I got that
vision, I saw, because of thebrokenness that I experienced, I
(03:41):
saw that glimpse of who I wasand I was just crushed and it
made me contrite and I havenever been the same since that
moment.
I'm not saying I haven'tstruggled here and there, of
course, with sin again in mylife, but I've never been in
(04:02):
that place to that level, and sothat's what I'm To your point,
tim, when you have a positivistview of our identity, that,
first of all, is not grounded inprice.
It's grounded in pop psychology,especially, or Brene Brown, or
(04:25):
whoever right, and it's groundedin this psychology that is
detached from a Christianworldview and our real
relationship and our real unityor disunity with God.
Then it's very easy to turn tothis transactional yeah, I did
something wrong, but I saidsorry, we're good, and and you
(04:48):
just live that way and that thatoften protects you know, oddly
enough, it often protects theidentity of the broken, hardened
individual underneath, of thebroken, hardened individual
(05:08):
underneath, because all you gotto do is is do the sorry thing
sorry, sorry, sorry, um and youget your sorries out of the way.
And so in our culture that'sone, I think, of the great
dangers in in, in trying to doaway completely with shame, is
that you're actually allowingpeople, you're're giving them a
get out of jail free card,you're giving them the ability
(05:30):
to try to hide themselves, oddlyenough, ironically enough,
because we're talking aboutshame and hiding, and so that,
yeah, that's a huge ordeal andso that, yeah, that's a huge
(06:10):
ordeal struggle, or girls thatstruggle with habitual sins that
are woven into their, their um,their personal behavior, um,
and again, they're not evilbecause they're in christ jesus,
but they have this old personthat they are being and they're
feeding, and we want to addressthe shame that they should be
feeling and say, okay, and thisgets to your point, sam, how we
(06:34):
address it is so very important.
God loves you, christ loves you.
He died on the cross for yoursin and shame.
He did.
He took it on himself.
On the cross for your sin andshame.
He did.
He took it on himself.
Yes, you should feel ashamed,but as soon as you feel that
(06:55):
shame and that testimony of thefact that you are not being
right with God and you are not,although you are judiciously
justified by God because you'rea believer and you put your
faith in Christ Jesus you arenot acting out your faith and
your new person on the daily.
You are in a consistentlyrebellious place in life and you
(07:18):
should feel the shame of that.
And when you do feel the shame,you should have a contrite
heart and you should recognizethat Jesus is reaching out to
you with grace and love andforgiveness and already has and
will continue to do so, and he'sthere, reaching to you.
But you've got to answer thatwith contrition.
(07:40):
And, of course, sam Tim is whatdoes the bible say about a
contrite heart?
Right, it's what god wants andhe will not deny it.
Right, that's.
It's so very important.
Um, I just have a hard timeequating guilt solely with that
(08:03):
relational dynamic, sam.
Help me out here.
I mean, can you see at leastwhere I'm struggling with trying
to say that guilt is adequateto relate to this contrition,
this feeling of disunity that weshould have when we're living
in habitual sin?
Speaker 3 (08:25):
Yeah, no, jason, as you were speaking, I think the
thing that popped into my headwas levels of sin and levels of
shame.
For example, you said we shouldfeel ashamed if we're living in
a certain way, and I thinkwhere that comes into play is
like okay, so should I feel thesame level of shame for the sin
(08:49):
of murder, the same for lying tosomeone?
And maybe that's one of thefactors here too is that, well,
I mean, I lied to someone, but Idon't feel ashamed about it
because I did it to protectmyself, or it's just a white lie
?
Right, right, right, right.
So I maybe that's a part ofthis conversation no, totally,
depending on the level of sin.
Right, because you know how werate it.
(09:11):
Like, this sin is worse thanthat one.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
So maybe that's an element here that people feel
shame people feel shame, or someshame, totally, and how, how,
how consistently, you do thatthing, yeah, and that that's
where you get into the identityissues, right, um, uh, and
whether you have a propensity tolong for something, and this is
why we get into the homosexualconversation.
(09:36):
This is why we have the debatewithin christianity tim, and you
know we've had theseconversations where we're
talking about, uh, should I feelashamed of longing to have a
sexual relationship with a man,or should I just feel ashamed
when I do have a sexualrelationship with a man?
Right, and, and that's a,that's a.
(09:57):
That's a whole otherconversation that we could go
episodes on, right.
But there's, yes, theconsistency of the behavior.
There are situations where I'vedone something wrong.
You're right, I've done it.
In the moment I lied to theNazis, you know, let's make it
really easy, you know, maybethat's.
You know, I was in an awkwardsituation.
(10:19):
I didn't want to hurt afriend's feelings and I just
straight up lied to him.
Should I feel ashamed about whoI was being?
Well, if that's not aconsistent part of your behavior
, guilt is probably what you'regoing to feel for that.
If you're a Christian, you'reprobably going to feel guilty
about it and you probablyshouldn't feel ashamed about
that, and you probably shouldn'tfeel ashamed about that.
(10:40):
But if you've struggled withlying for the majority of your
adult life, or maybe youstruggled as a kid with lying
and you came out of that andthen all of a sudden you're
finding yourself back in thesituations where you're starting
to lie again, well then there'sa good chance that shame's
(11:02):
going to actually show up inthat situation, because you're
now talking about a perceivedidentity that you don't want to
be associated with, and rightlyso.
And there is a weight to thatshame that you should feel, from
my perspective, that you shouldfeel that weight.
That is something that'sconsistently you're struggling
with.
You should feel that way.
(11:22):
That is something that'sconsistently you're struggling
with.
But, tim, the danger again andthis is part of the conversation
the danger is so disassociatingactions from identity that it's
all just this transactional.
I did that thing.
It's not me, I did that thing.
It's not me, I did that thing.
It's not me, I did that.
And so you know whether it'slying or homosexual behavior or
(11:42):
pornography.
I'm looking at it again andagain.
I'm looking at it again today,but it's not me.
It's not me.
Right of the coin.
(12:02):
There is truth to the fact that,as a christian, we are new
creations.
And so, to your point, sam in,especially as we're educating
our children.
I'm educating my childrensaying look, you are not right
with god.
And at the, you know, all mychildren praise god, are now
created, they're all saved,they're christians, they've you
know, they've asked forforgiveness and they're pursuing
Christ.
But until they did, my wife andI were saying to them you have
(12:34):
sinned and you are not rightwith God and that's why you're
sinning, because inside of youis a rebellious attitude that we
were all born with and it is atestimony to the fact that there
was the fall and it has itsconsequences.
And we're all born into sin anddisobedience.
(13:02):
Morally, aware of the fact thatyou are not right with God, you
should want to then repent ofthat fallenness and that
sinfulness and ask for God toforgive you and cleanse you,
make you a new person and thenhelp you to live out your new
identity in Christ.
And so that was ourconversations, that was our
consistent prayer with ourchildren.
And then they came to christand then the conversation is
about who are you in jesus?
Who are you going to be injesus.
(13:24):
Yes, you want to be this.
Yes, you want to.
You want to be this type ofperson.
Um, I haven't had to have theconversation really that much
with my praise god, with mychildren, on shame, but on shame
.
But I have had it with otherpeople, that's for sure,
christians that were strugglingwith that issue or with multiple
(13:46):
issues.
But, yeah, a lot of it doeshave to do with that early
conversation that you have withyour kids and that rearing and
to say, yes, you are guilty ofdoing sinful things, but that's
because you are not right withGod and you should feel ashamed
of the fact that you are notright with God and you need to
(14:09):
get right with God.
And when you consistently, as aChristian, even though you're
reconciled with God, even thoughyou are reconciled, if you
disobey him, then you feel youshould feel ashamed for who
you're being.
There should come a momentwhere you see yourself and go,
(14:30):
wow, I cannot believe.
You know, I am being thisperson, because that's not who
I'm supposed to be, that's notwho I am in j and I don't want
to be that.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
Well, that's good, brother, that's good.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
I just preached a sermon.
I apologize, Tim.
The church of Jason there.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
I was thinking also about the influence of the
church.
You know I know we talkedearlier about kind of like sins
that are more seen as deplorableand so on Like the church has a
huge influence on that, andusually when I work with
students it's there's one or twomajor sins that the parents are
just saying you better not dothis.
And then they go to church,emphasize the same thing and
(15:12):
they connect a lot of the waythat the church responds to it
to how God would respond to it.
So if the pastor is preachingfrom this passage and has this
sense of I don't know if I wantto say arrogance, but this
condemnation and judgmentalapproach or voice or tone, they
associate that well, if I dothis, then God looks at it this
(15:35):
way and that makes me feel bad.
God doesn't want anything to dowith me.
So it's one of those things Ithink we mentioned that earlier
in one of our other episodes isthat it's finding that balance
of.
You should feel some shame, butyou should also understand
God's grace is love Totally.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Yeah, god's grace has to be a part of the
conversation and, again, that'swhat I relayed to my children.
I had to.
I mean cause to, and what doyou want to see from the pulpit?
You want to see a pastor thatsays but for the grace of God,
there go I.
You want, yes, that we shouldall be ashamed of this sort of
activity and this is abhorrentto God.
(16:14):
But he has covered us and hehas been gracious.
He has extended his grace forthose of us that believe we have
been recipients of that graceand it is available to us in
terms of his mercy and hispatience and, yes, he wants to
(16:39):
work with us as we grow in hislikeness.
This, of course, gets to theEastern Orthodox theosis, you
know, as we talked about before.
We should be becoming more likeChrist.
Right, we should be.
Shame should be less and lessand less and less a part of our
life and less and less and lessa part of our life, and in some
(17:05):
ways, we should be talking moreabout the struggle with shame
that we have and being accusedof things that we are not and
being told that we're badbecause we are things that are
actually good, which is wherewe're at in our culture right A
lot of times, is that the tablesare turned and this gets to a
really I know we don't have aton of time, but it gets to the
(17:27):
point where there's a lot ofshame in a shameless culture.
Sam Tim, there's a lot ofshaming going on, an enormous
amount of shame, and so, eventhough we say that shaming is
bad, and if you get all the youknow the psychologists and the
politicians and the kids fromHarvard in the room and ask them
(17:47):
is shame good, they're going tosay no and then they're going
to hop on Twitter and they'regoing to shame Donald.
Trump and everybody that likeshim for being a horrible person,
not just doing bad things, butthey're going to watch Elon Musk
do one thing they disagree with, and now he's a wretched human
being.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Yep, yep, yep.
To extricate shame from oursexuality, uh, from our
lifestyle choices, is the sameculture that will immediately
shame someone for having anunapproved opinion about
(18:30):
something that's right.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
About sexuality as a matter of fact, right.
So yeah, it's cis gen.
You know they're attempting toshame, via terminology,
normative, biblical behaviors.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Yeah, yeah, that's a good point attempt to.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Maybe the thought is this that if and I'm not saying
anyone thinks this consciously,but subconsciously if we can
(19:09):
shame the shamers out ofexistence, then we can be free
of our own shame.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Oh yeah, some will.
Some will come right out andsay it yeah, that's, that's
exactly right, sam, you weregoing to say something.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
Oh no, it was just that to the point that Tim just
said, is that it it alleviatesthe reality that they're also
doing something or that they'redoing something wrong, right
reality that they're also doingsomething or that they're doing
something wrong, right, likeyour sin, or your view of this
purity approach to marriage orfamily.
Whatever the case, that's worsethan my sexual behavior, right?
(19:46):
So if they could paint them asthat's worse, then that makes
them feel a little bit better.
Right, so it alleviates theshame, but I think it's still
there, both for Christian andnon-Christian.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Totally well, here's another example yeah, go ahead
here's another example abortion.
Yeah, there was a time whereabortion was culturally frowned
upon, even if it was legal itwas not, it was it was not
something that you talked aboutopenly, yeah, um, but now there
(20:15):
is the.
The radical feminists have goneso far as to quote parties
celebrate your abortion,announce it from the rooftops.
Yeah, and I something that jayuh bud jusefsky.
He's a christian philosopherdown in the university of texas
at austin.
I was listening to a talk thathe gave many years ago and he
(20:35):
was talking about abortion andit related to other things like
sexuality, and he said that thepublic celebration of these
things is, in a way, a form ofconfession, because if you can,
if you can get other people onyour side, if you could say, hey
, I did this thing and you'redoing something that's extremely
(20:57):
shameful, but you're doing itin such a brazen way that other
people get on board with you,then it actually mitigates the
shame that you feel.
Yeah, it is.
People have to confess whatthey do.
We have to it comes out in them.
That's right, because they wantto be what they do.
We have to it comes out in them.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
That's right, because they want to be their own gods,
they want to be right, theywant to be in a right, whole
relationship with their creator.
So they have to make a creatorin the energy of themselves and
then they can say that they'reright with that.
That's what we see in publiceducation.
That's what we see in publiceducation right.
That's what we see inpsychology, developmental
(21:36):
psychology Make a God, make anideal that we can meet ourselves
, that everybody that isreasonable, that aligns with us,
(21:57):
that validates us, can meet.
And then, those that arejudgmental, that don't approve
of us, we will make a newstandard that says that they are
the shameful ones.
They are the ones that areunloving and it's shameful to be
unloving.
They are the ones that arejudgmental, it is shameful to be
judgmental.
And so you create a whole newmoral reality in which you're
(22:17):
right.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
I can go out and celebrate my wickedness and
claim it is good yeah, and weeven see instances of this in
movies and uh television, wherethe the caricature, like you
always know, it's like thechristian.
The christian caricature isthis moralistic prude that's
(22:40):
judgmental of everyone and isultimately a hypocrite.
They're always shown to be ahypocrite in the show because
they're doing exactly the samethings as everyone else.
They're just pretending to bemore righteous than other people
, and that speaks to thecynicism of our culture that
they don't cynicism is is thisuh view that everyone acts out
(23:03):
of extremely selfish ulteriormotives.
And so if you can paint theculture in an extremely cynical
light that there's no, there'sno extremely cynical light that
there's no, there's no good,there's no virtue, there's no
one that's actually attemptingto live out a holy life, then I
don't have to feel so guiltyabout the way that I act either.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Yeah, no, you're right, I it.
I.
You understand right why thepeople that hate shame hate
shame.
Right, because the shame.
You understand why the peoplethat hate shame hate shame.
Because shame makes you want torun to those who validate you.
It does Because you can hidewith them.
They say misery love company.
Well, the shame really lovecompany.
(23:46):
Because you can go and you canfeel desired.
You can go and you can feeldesired, you can feel accepted
if you go find those that agreewith as being good or as at
least being amoral, the thingthat you feel innately shameful
about, and homosexual is the topkind of cultural topic on this
(24:09):
issue.
If I could just go find acommunity that accepts my
feelings and desires andlongings and says that it's at
least normal and good, so, andyou know, then the well-meaning
Christian psychologist or pastorsays we don't want those people
(24:29):
running over there.
We don't want those peoplerunning over there.
Uh, so let's just do away withshame, let's, let's just like
put that aside and say that'snot a healthy thing.
But the reality is is shame isnot a wieldable tool
holistically.
Yes, it can be wielded.
(24:50):
Yes, it is wielded by manypeople and by Satan, but it is
also something innately that wehave and feel, no matter what,
because of Romans 1.
And this gets back to my firststatement in my first episode.
We have a disunity with Godthat is going to testify to us
(25:12):
no matter what, and we're allguilty before it.
We're all ashamed, should beashamed, of that disunity with
God.
And when we teach people tojust run to the communities that
accept them and don't bring upand show them what the word says
(25:36):
about their activities andabout who they're being, then
we're lying.
Ultimately, we're lying tothese individuals.
We are making it difficult forrepentance and contrition to
happen.
In my opinion, right.
The other ironic thing is rarelydo you hear the same thing
(25:56):
talked about in relationship toanger, you know.
Rarely, you know, do you havethe same thing talked about in
terms of other emotions?
Yeah, other emotions that canbe just as toxic, just as abused
, just as manipulated, but theyare less connected in that
(26:24):
primordial slash biblicalGenesis narrative, to the fact
that we are disconnected withGod, genesis narrative to the
fact that we are disconnectedwith god.
But but they are.
Anger can be just as toxic, justas destructive, just as harmful
in terms of its effect, uh, onon society and on us as
(26:45):
individuals, and you don'tnecessarily see the same
arguments being pushed back onthose emotions but shame.
The fact that we are havingthese conversations, the fact
that we do struggle so much withaccepting shame as something
that can be addressed in ahealthy manner and can be owned
(27:08):
temporarily just is anothertestimony to the fact that it's
so very innately important tothe human condition and it's
always going to be.
And as a Christian, I feel likewe have a very strong narrative
, a very strong reality that ifwe just own it and recognize the
(27:28):
place of shame, then shame canhave a healthy role and and they
(28:01):
can see toxic shame coming amile down the road, because they
know what a healthy feeling ofshame to feel like versus a
toxic, uh, feeling of shame tofeel like versus a toxic feeling
of shame that has nothing to dowith their relationship with
God or a godly relationship withthe other.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
That was great, jason .
That was really good.
You know, it speaks to thisidea of some Christians also who
feel that if I'm anxious, thenthat means I'm not trusting God
enough, or if I feel depressed,that means I'm not trusting.
If I feel shame, that meanssomething's wrong, and so it is
pointing to this aspect of Ineed to address something and
(28:45):
the mental health field.
We have one approach calledinternal family systems, and the
idea is that there's parts ofyou that are trying to
communicate something and thatit's important to pay attention
to each one, and in this case,we do it with anxiety.
Right, I feel anxious aboutgoing to meet you know this this
couple over here, this church,go to this church and so on, and
you say, okay, what is thattelling you?
(29:06):
And you explore that depression, kind of the same thing, but
with shame.
I haven't seen a lot goingthere, but it is something
that's starting to, at least formyself and a couple of other
counselors starting to addressand counseling.
Okay, what is that shametelling you?
And it says, kind of this ideathat comes up, I'm not good
enough, or they're going tojudge me, right, all these
(29:26):
different things that come up.
But, yeah, shame has been seenin such a negative light that
there's no room made for it inthe counseling space where there
should be.
You should be able to sit withit and say, okay, what is this
telling me about myself?
And eventually you get to thispoint of there's something wrong
between my relationship withGod as well.
So to your point, kind ofleading us back to
(29:49):
reestablishing that connectionwith our creator.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Yeah, and with each other.
An abusive husband that's beena bit abusive for 15 years needs
to feel ashamed.
He needs to wake up one day andgo crap.
Oh, my goodness, who have Ibeen to my wife?
Uh, lord jesus, please forgiveme, my, my love, please, please
forgive me.
You should see the contrition,you should see the shame that
(30:16):
leads to contrition.
And if but yeah, if you don't,if you don't recognize that as
as valid and you don't talkpeople through that, that
feeling that they they rightlyshould be feeling sometimes,
that you know, then I think thatthey lose a moment where they
could be drawn into healthyrelationships and a healthy
(30:40):
understanding of themselves, forthat matter.
Right, right.
And sometimes it's a lie, likeyou said.
You know, sometimes it's a lieand you should be thinking
through is this a lie?
Is this who I've been being?
Is this me?
Is this relevant to my life?
This feeling that I'm having,that somebody's either accusing
(31:01):
me of, or that I'm just innatelyfeeling because something bad
happened to me as a child or Ihad this event in my life that I
started identifying myself with.
Should I be feeling that?
And oftentimes the answer is no.
So with the psychologist, theevolutionary psychologist and
(31:21):
the school counselors and thewell-meaning parents and pastors
, we can say yeah.
There are plenty of times whenwe can say no, that's not
healthy, that's a lie, get itout when we can say no, that's,
that's not healthy, that's a lie, get it out.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
Yeah, and this kind of comes back to our final and
original point, and that waswithout, without an objective
standard by which to to identifyright and wrong forms of shame.
Um, the psychology world,mental health world, our culture
, is left adrift.
Yeah, you know you can.
When, just in the last fewminutes, we've been throwing out
(31:58):
terms like ought I to feelshameful or ought you know,
should I feel shameful for this?
All these questions ought andshould, uh, they imply a moral,
some sort of moral standard.
That's right.
So it's.
It's like if I'm feelingshameful and I, it's good to ask
yourself should I feel shamefulfor this thing?
And if the answer is no, theanswer is no because I'm
(32:22):
appealing to some objectivestandard that is higher than my
feelings of shame.
So if I say like, I feelshameful for my situation in
life, you know, whatever that is, have I done something
objectively wrong to merit thatshame?
And if the answer is no, wellthen that shame is not of God,
it's not biblical, it's notcorrect.
(32:43):
And so, just to drive it home,you know, a biblical worldview,
or shame must be grounded in abiblical worldview in order to
make sense.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
That's right, that's exactly right.
Speaker 3 (32:59):
But see, I wonder if that's the part that also makes
it difficult for people to makesense of, because it is an
internal experience that theyfeel, for example, someone could
feel shame for asking for help.
That's not a sin, that's right.
Feel, for example, someonecould feel ashamed for asking
for help.
That's not a sin, right.
So it's one of those thingswhere if they, if they um, feel
(33:19):
ashamed for asking for help,they make that a big part of
their identity and it's hard todistinguish.
Like is this should I feel badabout this or should?
Speaker 2 (33:27):
men don't.
Men don't ask for help.
Men don't know.
Yeah, women don't go out of thehouse without makeup on.
You know, there are just somany cultural nuances that we
can agree that are simplyunhealthy.
As it pertains to being shamedfor those things, that's not
(33:48):
right, you know, that's not good, but there are plenty of things
that we should feel shame about, you're right.
And the Christian worldview.
The irony is and I'll end onthis the irony is is that we
want to be a virtuously drivensociety person, but you cannot
(34:11):
talk, you cannot positivelyspeak of virtues and then
negatively only speak of actions.
You can't.
You can't do that becausevirtue is inherently about
character and identity, and sothe whole identity that in a
(34:32):
whole social paradigm whicheverybody signs on to, that we
should seek to be virtuouspeople, that whole paradigm is
inherently related to the factthat we should not do shameful
things and we should not beshameful people, and there is an
(34:52):
identity that is shameful.
That's not virtuous, right?
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (34:59):
Yeah, yeah, there, you know, in order to act
virtuously, we must firstidentify what it means to be
virtuous and what the why.
The virtues are virtues in andof themselves, yeah, so virtue
is not.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Virtue is not doing bad would be the illogical way
of saying what we want to say,because we don't want to claim
the bad side of that spectrum.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Yeah, All right guys.
Well, I think that's a goodplace to wrap it up.
Jason, we want to thank you forthis three-part series and the
in-depth discussions on onvarious topics and the wealth of
knowledge that you bring to it.
Thank you for the rigorousdebate, at times too, on the
subjects of guilt and shame.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
Whether it was necessary or warranted or not.
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
But no, it was good.
So, guys, audience members,thank you for listening.
So, guys, audience members,thank you for listening, and we
will see you next time withhopefully with another series,
something like this, we'll see.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
Sam Tim.
Thank you so much, guys.
I really appreciate this.
It's been a privilege and anhonor to be with you.
Speaker 3 (36:05):
Thanks, Jason.
All right, everyone, welcome back to part three of
our series in Psych and Theo,and this is part three of our
series on guilt and shame.
We are with our colleague,jason Glenn and the first two
episodes we encourage you to goback and listen to those we talk
about the historical andtheological foundations of shame
and its uses throughout historyof shame and its uses
(00:28):
throughout history.
And then part two, we talkedabout the current debates about
shame and whether it's useful ornot, whether it's good or not,
and then now we're going to getinto some contemporary
applications Christian versusnon-Christian applications of
shame.
And you know, we ended endedpart two.
Jason, you were making a reallygood point about the dangers
that occur when someone deniesshame or loses the ability to
(00:56):
feel shame, and I think that'sprobably a real danger in our
culture, a culture that, uh, aswe said in the previous episode,
is literally or metaphoricallydemonizing shame and wants
nothing to do with shame.
So let's get into that, like,pick up where we left off.
What is the danger?
And this I guess I'm going toask this as a devil's advocate
(01:18):
question or maybe for ouraudience, who isn't quite fully
tracking with what we're talkingabout, they might say okay, so
what?
So some people look at guiltand some people look at shame
and you know if it moves theirrelation, moves them to a better
relationship with God.
You know what's the difference.
You know, like, what's the bigdeal with making these
(01:41):
distinctions between guilt andshame, or or seeing them as
connected?
What's the big deal about allof this what?
What are the dangers?
And not having a what, what Ithink each of us are kind of
alluding to, and that's abiblical view of shame.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Yeah, even to just reference my own experience and
I did, I did, you know, I didreference it to a degree um, for
those three and a half years orso that I was, I was um sowing
my wild oats and and fulfillingdesires of the flesh and um
being disobedient, I was askingfor forgiveness a lot.
(02:24):
Uh, I would feel bad, I'd feelguilty for a second right, I'd
ask for forgiveness and I'm good.
And then the next day I wouldgo get drunk, wake up with a
hangover, ask for forgiveness,I'm good, and go sleep with my
(02:45):
girlfriend.
Ask for forgiveness, I'm good.
Right, um, I should have feltashamed of who I was being in in
that moment um of my life,rather than simply, uh, like
(03:18):
transactional relationship,right to walk with the spirit in
newness of life and being who Iwas supposed to be and
rejecting who I was no longer tobe.
And so when I got to thatsenior year and I got that
vision, I saw, because of thebrokenness that I experienced, I
(03:41):
saw that glimpse of who I wasand I was just crushed and it
made me contrite and I havenever been the same since that
moment.
I'm not saying I haven'tstruggled here and there, of
course, with sin again in mylife, but I've never been in
(04:02):
that place to that level, and sothat's what I'm To your point,
tim, when you have a positivistview of our identity, that,
first of all, is not grounded inprice.
It's grounded in pop psychology,especially, or Brene Brown, or
(04:25):
whoever right, and it's groundedin this psychology that is
detached from a Christianworldview and our real
relationship and our real unityor disunity with God.
Then it's very easy to turn tothis transactional yeah, I did
something wrong, but I saidsorry, we're good, and and you
(04:48):
just live that way and that thatoften protects you know, oddly
enough, it often protects theidentity of the broken, hardened
individual underneath, of thebroken, hardened individual
(05:08):
underneath, because all you gotto do is is do the sorry thing
sorry, sorry, sorry, um and youget your sorries out of the way.
And so in our culture that'sone, I think, of the great
dangers in in, in trying to doaway completely with shame, is
that you're actually allowingpeople, you're're giving them a
get out of jail free card,you're giving them the ability
(05:30):
to try to hide themselves, oddlyenough, ironically enough,
because we're talking aboutshame and hiding, and so that,
yeah, that's a huge ordeal andso that, yeah, that's a huge
(06:10):
ordeal struggle, or girls thatstruggle with habitual sins that
are woven into their, their um,their personal behavior, um,
and again, they're not evilbecause they're in christ jesus,
but they have this old personthat they are being and they're
feeding, and we want to addressthe shame that they should be
feeling and say, okay, and thisgets to your point, sam, how we
(06:34):
address it is so very important.
God loves you, christ loves you.
He died on the cross for yoursin and shame.
He did.
He took it on himself.
On the cross for your sin andshame.
He did.
He took it on himself.
Yes, you should feel ashamed,but as soon as you feel that
(06:55):
shame and that testimony of thefact that you are not being
right with God and you are not,although you are judiciously
justified by God because you'rea believer and you put your
faith in Christ Jesus you arenot acting out your faith and
your new person on the daily.
You are in a consistentlyrebellious place in life and you
(07:18):
should feel the shame of that.
And when you do feel the shame,you should have a contrite
heart and you should recognizethat Jesus is reaching out to
you with grace and love andforgiveness and already has and
will continue to do so, and he'sthere, reaching to you.
But you've got to answer thatwith contrition.
(07:40):
And, of course, sam Tim is whatdoes the bible say about a
contrite heart?
Right, it's what god wants andhe will not deny it.
Right, that's.
It's so very important.
Um, I just have a hard timeequating guilt solely with that
(08:03):
relational dynamic, sam.
Help me out here.
I mean, can you see at leastwhere I'm struggling with trying
to say that guilt is adequateto relate to this contrition,
this feeling of disunity that weshould have when we're living
in habitual sin?
Speaker 3 (08:25):
Yeah, no, jason, as you were speaking, I think the
thing that popped into my headwas levels of sin and levels of
shame.
For example, you said we shouldfeel ashamed if we're living in
a certain way, and I thinkwhere that comes into play is
like okay, so should I feel thesame level of shame for the sin
(08:49):
of murder, the same for lying tosomeone?
And maybe that's one of thefactors here too is that, well,
I mean, I lied to someone, but Idon't feel ashamed about it
because I did it to protectmyself, or it's just a white lie
?
Right, right, right, right.
So I maybe that's a part ofthis conversation no, totally,
depending on the level of sin.
Right, because you know how werate it.
(09:11):
Like, this sin is worse thanthat one.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
So maybe that's an element here that people feel
shame people feel shame, or someshame, totally, and how, how,
how consistently, you do thatthing, yeah, and that that's
where you get into the identityissues, right, um, uh, and
whether you have a propensity tolong for something, and this is
why we get into the homosexualconversation.
(09:36):
This is why we have the debatewithin christianity tim, and you
know we've had theseconversations where we're
talking about, uh, should I feelashamed of longing to have a
sexual relationship with a man,or should I just feel ashamed
when I do have a sexualrelationship with a man?
Right, and, and that's a,that's a.
(09:57):
That's a whole otherconversation that we could go
episodes on, right.
But there's, yes, theconsistency of the behavior.
There are situations where I'vedone something wrong.
You're right, I've done it.
In the moment I lied to theNazis, you know, let's make it
really easy, you know, maybethat's.
You know, I was in an awkwardsituation.
(10:19):
I didn't want to hurt afriend's feelings and I just
straight up lied to him.
Should I feel ashamed about whoI was being?
Well, if that's not aconsistent part of your behavior
, guilt is probably what you'regoing to feel for that.
If you're a Christian, you'reprobably going to feel guilty
about it and you probablyshouldn't feel ashamed about
that, and you probably shouldn'tfeel ashamed about that.
(10:40):
But if you've struggled withlying for the majority of your
adult life, or maybe youstruggled as a kid with lying
and you came out of that andthen all of a sudden you're
finding yourself back in thesituations where you're starting
to lie again, well then there'sa good chance that shame's
(11:02):
going to actually show up inthat situation, because you're
now talking about a perceivedidentity that you don't want to
be associated with, and rightlyso.
And there is a weight to thatshame that you should feel, from
my perspective, that you shouldfeel that weight.
That is something that'sconsistently you're struggling
with.
You should feel that way.
(11:22):
That is something that'sconsistently you're struggling
with.
But, tim, the danger again andthis is part of the conversation
the danger is so disassociatingactions from identity that it's
all just this transactional.
I did that thing.
It's not me, I did that thing.
It's not me, I did that thing.
It's not me, I did that.
And so you know whether it'slying or homosexual behavior or
(11:42):
pornography.
I'm looking at it again andagain.
I'm looking at it again today,but it's not me.
It's not me.
Right of the coin.
(12:02):
There is truth to the fact that,as a christian, we are new
creations.
And so, to your point, sam in,especially as we're educating
our children.
I'm educating my childrensaying look, you are not right
with god.
And at the, you know, all mychildren praise god, are now
created, they're all saved,they're christians, they've you
know, they've asked forforgiveness and they're pursuing
Christ.
But until they did, my wife andI were saying to them you have
(12:34):
sinned and you are not rightwith God and that's why you're
sinning, because inside of youis a rebellious attitude that we
were all born with and it is atestimony to the fact that there
was the fall and it has itsconsequences.
And we're all born into sin anddisobedience.
(13:02):
Morally, aware of the fact thatyou are not right with God, you
should want to then repent ofthat fallenness and that
sinfulness and ask for God toforgive you and cleanse you,
make you a new person and thenhelp you to live out your new
identity in Christ.
And so that was ourconversations, that was our
consistent prayer with ourchildren.
And then they came to christand then the conversation is
about who are you in jesus?
Who are you going to be injesus.
(13:24):
Yes, you want to be this.
Yes, you want to.
You want to be this type ofperson.
Um, I haven't had to have theconversation really that much
with my praise god, with mychildren, on shame, but on shame
.
But I have had it with otherpeople, that's for sure,
christians that were strugglingwith that issue or with multiple
(13:46):
issues.
But, yeah, a lot of it doeshave to do with that early
conversation that you have withyour kids and that rearing and
to say, yes, you are guilty ofdoing sinful things, but that's
because you are not right withGod and you should feel ashamed
of the fact that you are notright with God and you need to
(14:09):
get right with God.
And when you consistently, as aChristian, even though you're
reconciled with God, even thoughyou are reconciled, if you
disobey him, then you feel youshould feel ashamed for who
you're being.
There should come a momentwhere you see yourself and go,
(14:30):
wow, I cannot believe.
You know, I am being thisperson, because that's not who
I'm supposed to be, that's notwho I am in j and I don't want
to be that.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
Well, that's good, brother, that's good.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
I just preached a sermon.
I apologize, Tim.
The church of Jason there.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
I was thinking also about the influence of the
church.
You know I know we talkedearlier about kind of like sins
that are more seen as deplorableand so on Like the church has a
huge influence on that, andusually when I work with
students it's there's one or twomajor sins that the parents are
just saying you better not dothis.
And then they go to church,emphasize the same thing and
(15:12):
they connect a lot of the waythat the church responds to it
to how God would respond to it.
So if the pastor is preachingfrom this passage and has this
sense of I don't know if I wantto say arrogance, but this
condemnation and judgmentalapproach or voice or tone, they
associate that well, if I dothis, then God looks at it this
(15:35):
way and that makes me feel bad.
God doesn't want anything to dowith me.
So it's one of those things Ithink we mentioned that earlier
in one of our other episodes isthat it's finding that balance
of.
You should feel some shame, butyou should also understand
God's grace is love Totally.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Yeah, god's grace has to be a part of the
conversation and, again, that'swhat I relayed to my children.
I had to.
I mean cause to, and what doyou want to see from the pulpit?
You want to see a pastor thatsays but for the grace of God,
there go I.
You want, yes, that we shouldall be ashamed of this sort of
activity and this is abhorrentto God.
(16:14):
But he has covered us and hehas been gracious.
He has extended his grace forthose of us that believe we have
been recipients of that graceand it is available to us in
terms of his mercy and hispatience and, yes, he wants to
(16:39):
work with us as we grow in hislikeness.
This, of course, gets to theEastern Orthodox theosis, you
know, as we talked about before.
We should be becoming more likeChrist.
Right, we should be.
Shame should be less and lessand less and less a part of our
life and less and less and lessa part of our life, and in some
(17:05):
ways, we should be talking moreabout the struggle with shame
that we have and being accusedof things that we are not and
being told that we're badbecause we are things that are
actually good, which is wherewe're at in our culture right A
lot of times, is that the tablesare turned and this gets to a
really I know we don't have aton of time, but it gets to the
(17:27):
point where there's a lot ofshame in a shameless culture.
Sam Tim, there's a lot ofshaming going on, an enormous
amount of shame, and so, eventhough we say that shaming is
bad, and if you get all the youknow the psychologists and the
politicians and the kids fromHarvard in the room and ask them
(17:47):
is shame good, they're going tosay no and then they're going
to hop on Twitter and they'regoing to shame Donald.
Trump and everybody that likeshim for being a horrible person,
not just doing bad things, butthey're going to watch Elon Musk
do one thing they disagree with, and now he's a wretched human
being.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Yep, yep, yep.
To extricate shame from oursexuality, uh, from our
lifestyle choices, is the sameculture that will immediately
shame someone for having anunapproved opinion about
(18:30):
something that's right.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
About sexuality as a matter of fact, right.
So yeah, it's cis gen.
You know they're attempting toshame, via terminology,
normative, biblical behaviors.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Yeah, yeah, that's a good point attempt to.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Maybe the thought is this that if and I'm not saying
anyone thinks this consciously,but subconsciously if we can
(19:09):
shame the shamers out ofexistence, then we can be free
of our own shame.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Oh yeah, some will.
Some will come right out andsay it yeah, that's, that's
exactly right, sam, you weregoing to say something.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
Oh no, it was just that to the point that Tim just
said, is that it it alleviatesthe reality that they're also
doing something or that they'redoing something wrong, right
reality that they're also doingsomething or that they're doing
something wrong, right, likeyour sin, or your view of this
purity approach to marriage orfamily.
Whatever the case, that's worsethan my sexual behavior, right?
(19:46):
So if they could paint them asthat's worse, then that makes
them feel a little bit better.
Right, so it alleviates theshame, but I think it's still
there, both for Christian andnon-Christian.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Totally well, here's another example yeah, go ahead
here's another example abortion.
Yeah, there was a time whereabortion was culturally frowned
upon, even if it was legal itwas not, it was it was not
something that you talked aboutopenly, yeah, um, but now there
(20:15):
is the.
The radical feminists have goneso far as to quote parties
celebrate your abortion,announce it from the rooftops.
Yeah, and I something that jayuh bud jusefsky.
He's a christian philosopherdown in the university of texas
at austin.
I was listening to a talk thathe gave many years ago and he
(20:35):
was talking about abortion andit related to other things like
sexuality, and he said that thepublic celebration of these
things is, in a way, a form ofconfession, because if you can,
if you can get other people onyour side, if you could say, hey
, I did this thing and you'redoing something that's extremely
(20:57):
shameful, but you're doing itin such a brazen way that other
people get on board with you,then it actually mitigates the
shame that you feel.
Yeah, it is.
People have to confess whatthey do.
We have to it comes out in them.
That's right, because they wantto be what they do.
We have to it comes out in them.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
That's right, because they want to be their own gods,
they want to be right, theywant to be in a right, whole
relationship with their creator.
So they have to make a creatorin the energy of themselves and
then they can say that they'reright with that.
That's what we see in publiceducation.
That's what we see in publiceducation right.
That's what we see inpsychology, developmental
(21:36):
psychology Make a God, make anideal that we can meet ourselves
, that everybody that isreasonable, that aligns with us,
(21:57):
that validates us, can meet.
And then, those that arejudgmental, that don't approve
of us, we will make a newstandard that says that they are
the shameful ones.
They are the ones that areunloving and it's shameful to be
unloving.
They are the ones that arejudgmental, it is shameful to be
judgmental.
And so you create a whole newmoral reality in which you're
(22:17):
right.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
I can go out and celebrate my wickedness and
claim it is good yeah, and weeven see instances of this in
movies and uh television, wherethe the caricature, like you
always know, it's like thechristian.
The christian caricature isthis moralistic prude that's
(22:40):
judgmental of everyone and isultimately a hypocrite.
They're always shown to be ahypocrite in the show because
they're doing exactly the samethings as everyone else.
They're just pretending to bemore righteous than other people
, and that speaks to thecynicism of our culture that
they don't cynicism is is thisuh view that everyone acts out
(23:03):
of extremely selfish ulteriormotives.
And so if you can paint theculture in an extremely cynical
light that there's no, there'sno extremely cynical light that
there's no, there's no good,there's no virtue, there's no
one that's actually attemptingto live out a holy life, then I
don't have to feel so guiltyabout the way that I act either.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
Yeah, no, you're right, I it.
I.
You understand right why thepeople that hate shame hate
shame.
Right, because the shame.
You understand why the peoplethat hate shame hate shame.
Because shame makes you want torun to those who validate you.
It does Because you can hidewith them.
They say misery love company.
Well, the shame really lovecompany.
(23:46):
Because you can go and you canfeel desired.
You can go and you can feeldesired, you can feel accepted
if you go find those that agreewith as being good or as at
least being amoral, the thingthat you feel innately shameful
about, and homosexual is the topkind of cultural topic on this
(24:09):
issue.
If I could just go find acommunity that accepts my
feelings and desires andlongings and says that it's at
least normal and good, so, andyou know, then the well-meaning
Christian psychologist or pastorsays we don't want those people
(24:29):
running over there.
We don't want those peoplerunning over there.
Uh, so let's just do away withshame, let's, let's just like
put that aside and say that'snot a healthy thing.
But the reality is is shame isnot a wieldable tool
holistically.
Yes, it can be wielded.
(24:50):
Yes, it is wielded by manypeople and by Satan, but it is
also something innately that wehave and feel, no matter what,
because of Romans 1.
And this gets back to my firststatement in my first episode.
We have a disunity with Godthat is going to testify to us
(25:12):
no matter what, and we're allguilty before it.
We're all ashamed, should beashamed, of that disunity with
God.
And when we teach people tojust run to the communities that
accept them and don't bring upand show them what the word says
(25:36):
about their activities andabout who they're being, then
we're lying.
Ultimately, we're lying tothese individuals.
We are making it difficult forrepentance and contrition to
happen.
In my opinion, right.
The other ironic thing is rarelydo you hear the same thing
(25:56):
talked about in relationship toanger, you know.
Rarely, you know, do you havethe same thing talked about in
terms of other emotions?
Yeah, other emotions that canbe just as toxic, just as abused
, just as manipulated, but theyare less connected in that
(26:24):
primordial slash biblicalGenesis narrative, to the fact
that we are disconnected withGod, genesis narrative to the
fact that we are disconnectedwith god.
But but they are.
Anger can be just as toxic, justas destructive, just as harmful
in terms of its effect, uh, onon society and on us as
(26:45):
individuals, and you don'tnecessarily see the same
arguments being pushed back onthose emotions but shame.
The fact that we are havingthese conversations, the fact
that we do struggle so much withaccepting shame as something
that can be addressed in ahealthy manner and can be owned
(27:08):
temporarily just is anothertestimony to the fact that it's
so very innately important tothe human condition and it's
always going to be.
And as a Christian, I feel likewe have a very strong narrative
, a very strong reality that ifwe just own it and recognize the
(27:28):
place of shame, then shame canhave a healthy role and and they
(28:01):
can see toxic shame coming amile down the road, because they
know what a healthy feeling ofshame to feel like versus a
toxic, uh, feeling of shame tofeel like versus a toxic feeling
of shame that has nothing to dowith their relationship with
God or a godly relationship withthe other.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
That was great, jason .
That was really good.
You know, it speaks to thisidea of some Christians also who
feel that if I'm anxious, thenthat means I'm not trusting God
enough, or if I feel depressed,that means I'm not trusting.
If I feel shame, that meanssomething's wrong, and so it is
pointing to this aspect of Ineed to address something and
(28:45):
the mental health field.
We have one approach calledinternal family systems, and the
idea is that there's parts ofyou that are trying to
communicate something and thatit's important to pay attention
to each one, and in this case,we do it with anxiety.
Right, I feel anxious aboutgoing to meet you know this this
couple over here, this church,go to this church and so on, and
you say, okay, what is thattelling you?
(29:06):
And you explore that depression, kind of the same thing, but
with shame.
I haven't seen a lot goingthere, but it is something
that's starting to, at least formyself and a couple of other
counselors starting to addressand counseling.
Okay, what is that shametelling you?
And it says, kind of this ideathat comes up, I'm not good
enough, or they're going tojudge me, right, all these
(29:26):
different things that come up.
But, yeah, shame has been seenin such a negative light that
there's no room made for it inthe counseling space where there
should be.
You should be able to sit withit and say, okay, what is this
telling me about myself?
And eventually you get to thispoint of there's something wrong
between my relationship withGod as well.
So to your point, kind ofleading us back to
(29:49):
reestablishing that connectionwith our creator.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Yeah, and with each other.
An abusive husband that's beena bit abusive for 15 years needs
to feel ashamed.
He needs to wake up one day andgo crap.
Oh, my goodness, who have Ibeen to my wife?
Uh, lord jesus, please forgiveme, my, my love, please, please
forgive me.
You should see the contrition,you should see the shame that
(30:16):
leads to contrition.
And if but yeah, if you don't,if you don't recognize that as
as valid and you don't talkpeople through that, that
feeling that they they rightlyshould be feeling sometimes,
that you know, then I think thatthey lose a moment where they
could be drawn into healthyrelationships and a healthy
(30:40):
understanding of themselves, forthat matter.
Right, right.
And sometimes it's a lie, likeyou said.
You know, sometimes it's a lieand you should be thinking
through is this a lie?
Is this who I've been being?
Is this me?
Is this relevant to my life?
This feeling that I'm having,that somebody's either accusing
(31:01):
me of, or that I'm just innatelyfeeling because something bad
happened to me as a child or Ihad this event in my life that I
started identifying myself with.
Should I be feeling that?
And oftentimes the answer is no.
So with the psychologist, theevolutionary psychologist and
(31:21):
the school counselors and thewell-meaning parents and pastors
, we can say yeah.
There are plenty of times whenwe can say no, that's not
healthy, that's a lie, get itout when we can say no, that's,
that's not healthy, that's a lie, get it out.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
Yeah, and this kind of comes back to our final and
original point, and that waswithout, without an objective
standard by which to to identifyright and wrong forms of shame.
Um, the psychology world,mental health world, our culture
, is left adrift.
Yeah, you know you can.
When, just in the last fewminutes, we've been throwing out
(31:58):
terms like ought I to feelshameful or ought you know,
should I feel shameful for this?
All these questions ought andshould, uh, they imply a moral,
some sort of moral standard.
That's right.
So it's.
It's like if I'm feelingshameful and I, it's good to ask
yourself should I feel shamefulfor this thing?
And if the answer is no, theanswer is no because I'm
(32:22):
appealing to some objectivestandard that is higher than my
feelings of shame.
So if I say like, I feelshameful for my situation in
life, you know, whatever that is, have I done something
objectively wrong to merit thatshame?
And if the answer is no, wellthen that shame is not of God,
it's not biblical, it's notcorrect.
(32:43):
And so, just to drive it home,you know, a biblical worldview,
or shame must be grounded in abiblical worldview in order to
make sense.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
That's right, that's exactly right.
Speaker 3 (32:59):
But see, I wonder if that's the part that also makes
it difficult for people to makesense of, because it is an
internal experience that theyfeel, for example, someone could
feel shame for asking for help.
That's not a sin, that's right.
Feel, for example, someonecould feel ashamed for asking
for help.
That's not a sin, right.
So it's one of those thingswhere if they, if they um, feel
(33:19):
ashamed for asking for help,they make that a big part of
their identity and it's hard todistinguish.
Like is this should I feel badabout this or should?
Speaker 2 (33:27):
men don't.
Men don't ask for help.
Men don't know.
Yeah, women don't go out of thehouse without makeup on.
You know, there are just somany cultural nuances that we
can agree that are simplyunhealthy.
As it pertains to being shamedfor those things, that's not
(33:48):
right, you know, that's not good, but there are plenty of things
that we should feel shame about, you're right.
And the Christian worldview.
The irony is and I'll end onthis the irony is is that we
want to be a virtuously drivensociety person, but you cannot
(34:11):
talk, you cannot positivelyspeak of virtues and then
negatively only speak of actions.
You can't.
You can't do that becausevirtue is inherently about
character and identity, and sothe whole identity that in a
(34:32):
whole social paradigm whicheverybody signs on to, that we
should seek to be virtuouspeople, that whole paradigm is
inherently related to the factthat we should not do shameful
things and we should not beshameful people, and there is an
(34:52):
identity that is shameful.
That's not virtuous, right?
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (34:59):
Yeah, yeah, there, you know, in order to act
virtuously, we must firstidentify what it means to be
virtuous and what the why.
The virtues are virtues in andof themselves, yeah, so virtue
is not.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
Virtue is not doing bad would be the illogical way
of saying what we want to say,because we don't want to claim
the bad side of that spectrum.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Yeah, All right guys.
Well, I think that's a goodplace to wrap it up.
Jason, we want to thank you forthis three-part series and the
in-depth discussions on onvarious topics and the wealth of
knowledge that you bring to it.
Thank you for the rigorousdebate, at times too, on the
subjects of guilt and shame.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
Whether it was necessary or warranted or not.
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
But no, it was good.
So, guys, audience members,thank you for listening.
So, guys, audience members,thank you for listening, and we
will see you next time withhopefully with another series,
something like this, we'll see.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
Sam Tim.
Thank you so much, guys.
I really appreciate this.
It's been a privilege and anhonor to be with you.
Speaker 3 (36:05):
Thanks, Jason.
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