April 29, 2025 • 44 mins
What if a simple investment of time and money could dramatically improve your chances of having a successful, fulfilling marriage? The research is compelling: couples who participate in premarital counseling experience 31% lower divorce rates and report 30% higher relationship satisfaction compared to those who skip this crucial step.
In this eye-opening conversation, we explore why premarital counseling matters and how it creates a foundation for lasting marriages. Many couples—especially in faith communities—mistakenly believe that sharing values, attending worship together, or having mentors provides sufficient marriage preparation. But beneath surface-level compatibility often lie unaddressed issues around communication patterns, financial expectations, past traumas, and conflict resolution styles that can emerge years into a marriage.
We compare professional counseling approaches with typical pastoral premarital preparation, examining how each addresses different relationship dimensions. While pastoral counseling often emphasizes spiritual foundations like covenant, forgiveness and prayer, professional counselors typically focus on communication skills, financial planning, and addressing past wounds that might affect the relationship.
Perhaps most intriguing is our discussion of pre-engagement counseling—an emerging approach where couples invest in relationship assessment before formal commitment. This removes the pressure of an impending wedding date when addressing potential compatibility issues and creates space for honest conversations without the implied timeline of marriage preparations already underway.
Consider premarital counseling as an investment rather than an expense. A typical series of sessions might cost you substantially less than an engagement ring or wedding expenses, and potentially saving thousands in future marriage counseling or divorce costs. More importantly, it provides structured space for difficult conversations about intimacy, finances, and family planning that couples might otherwise avoid.
Whether you're currently dating, engaged, or even married, the principles we discuss offer valuable insights for strengthening your relationship. Join us for a thoughtful exploration of how intentional preparation creates marriages that don't just survive but truly thrive.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
All right, everyone, welcome back to the Psych and
Theo podcast.
Sam and Tim here.
We have had a lot of busy weeks.
We're coming to the end of thesemester and we're finding some
times here to record andhopefully it's not a series, but
we're going to be talking abouta bunch of different topics
here.
Hopefully you'll find theminteresting.
(00:23):
And today's topic we're going totalk about the benefits of
pre-marital counseling.
Uh, specifically because we Imean just dealing with
relationships in general.
Most of the population I workwith is college students, but a
lot of you guys who arelistening to the podcast are
actually between 25 to 45, 25 to50 in that range.
(00:44):
So maybe hearing this topiccould be a reminder of some of
the things that maybe you wouldhave discussed in premarital or
you may see some relation to itand regarding, maybe, where you
currently are in your marriageor, for those of you who are
single, just kind of thinkingabout, okay, as I'm walking
through this stage of life, whatare some things, that
(01:05):
conversation that I'm supposedto have when I start dating, and
so on.
So we have a good mix of both.
We have a lot of singles, a lotof married, married couples as
well, and, yeah, I hope you findthis, this episode, to be a
blessing, and I think this was.
This was a topic recommendedfrom a listener, tim, or was it
a friend, just someone who justthought of it?
Speaker 2 (01:30):
I actually don't remember.
I thought this was yoursuggestion, so maybe it came
from a comment.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
No, no, actually, yeah, we were texting and he
said, hey, I heard, or someoneshared.
This would be a good topic forus to cover that one and the one
that we'll be talking aboutnext.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
I never remember what I text.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
You have to it's all.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
It's all good okay yeah, if someone that we're
doing anyways.
Yeah, I don't know whosuggested that to me.
It must have been someone atchurch.
Uh, it's all I can think of.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Yeah if we figured out what throw the name out
there.
Just so you know that.
No, we're just kidding.
We won't do that.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
All right, so benefits, the benefits of
marriage counseling, okay, sowhere do you want to take this?
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Well, let's introduce the topic first with why this
is actually a very good thingfor people to do.
Obviously it's a the researchshows that it is a positive
thing for couples to do beforethey get married.
Actually, 31% and when you'redoing premarital counseling, 31%
(02:29):
have a lower divorce risk and30% of people who get premarital
counseling report higherrelationship satisfaction.
And there's a lot of otherresearch in which I'll get into
right now practices that we dothat help that research in which
I'll get into right now ourpractices that we do that help
that.
But I think what happens oftenis that those, especially in
Christian circles, saying well,you know, we go to the same
(02:51):
church, we have some mentorsthat we meet with individually,
we have good teaching in ourchurch, so really we don't
really need to do premaritalcounseling.
So this is within the church.
Now, depending on the church,some emphasize it.
Some pastors actually requireit before they marry the couple.
(03:11):
So that's a good thing.
But usually they'll come at itfrom a biblical perspective and
show a lot of biblicalprinciples, and I'm not saying
that's bad, I'm saying thatsometimes they may miss some of
the other things that we woulddiscuss in professional
counseling when we're doingpremarital counseling.
So we'll see a little bit ofcontrast between how maybe
(03:34):
pastors approach it and howcounselors would approach it and
see if there's any overlapthere.
But yeah, the reason for thistopic is to explain how crucial
it is to establish a foundationfor one's marriage.
Okay, we'll discuss about whatpremarital counseling may look
like and the differences, as Imentioned earlier.
(03:58):
Okay, so first off, I guessmaybe a question that people are
having is what is premaritalcounseling and is it worth it?
So hopefully I'm able toexplain what that looks like.
But, tim, before I start withthat, are there any questions
that I guess came up as I wassharing a little bit about how
in Christian circles sometimesthe need for it is either not
(04:19):
considered or just kind ofignored because we are in a
church setting?
Speaker 2 (04:26):
I, you know, I think that stat.
You said 31% seek marriagecounseling.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
No, those who go to premarital counseling have a 31%
lower divorce risk and thosewho go to premarital counseling
report 30% higher relationshipsatisfaction.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Interesting Okay.
Report 30 higher relationshipsatisfaction.
Interesting okay, uh, is youknow.
I'm just curious is marriagecounseling common among
non-christians?
Do you know?
Marriage, premarital yeah,premarital, yeah, sorry.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Premarital counseling yeah yeah, I actually didn't,
didn't really look at that, justlook more so at the general
stats of people who actually dogo to counseling.
So this is just general uspopulation numbers.
Like I said, it's one of thosethings that's so important, but
it's often seen as well we getalong, we have people who
support us and that's enoughright, things have gone well.
Right.
We'll often hear couples say,well, we don't really have that
(05:19):
big problems and the ones thatwe do have, we've talked, talked
about it, you know.
I do see this new trend, though, where people are seeing
premarital counseling as a wayto divorce, proof their marriage
.
So they start really early on.
So after a couple of, or whenthey make their relationship
official, they start considering, hey, let's just go to
(05:40):
counseling individually and thenalso let's go together.
So it's a small percentage ofpeople, but there are people
doing that, and I think whatpeople are becoming aware of is
there's a lot of unresolvedtraumas from their past or
unresolved issues from theirpast, previous breakup trees,
relationships where, when theycome to counseling, they want to
(06:03):
address it straight on right.
So they're asking the counselorto say, to explain what's going
to affect us if we get marriedright.
So there's this really famouspodcaster, the School of
Greatness.
His name is Lewis Hose, he's anathlete, he was an Olympian,
and so on.
He talks about how he and hisnow wife did that.
(06:25):
He was so scared because he hadso many broken relationships
before her that he said you knowwhat?
I've never done this before.
I really like this girl.
I want to be serious about it.
I know that we're going to stirsome things up in each other
and I want to address it thereand that.
So he talks about it and kindof followed him along that
journey and uh, yeah, I mean,they seem to be doing well.
(06:48):
They're not a christian couple,um, but he's a very insightful
person and just wanted to dothings a different way, right?
So so yeah.
So those are kind of the the uh,the stats.
They're actually 79 percent ofparticipants have stronger
marriages long term compared tothose who skip it.
(07:11):
Okay, there's people who startpremarital counseling and they
don't really finish it either.
Right, they'll start, they likethe things that they're talking
about and because they don'tsee any direct relevance to
their life in that moment, theykind of feel like, well, maybe
this is not that big of a deal.
Like we've already talked aboutall these things.
I think it's okay for us tojust move forward with the
(07:33):
marriage.
But they don't realize thatthey're building skill sets so
that when they do get married itcan be helpful for them.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Okay, okay, just some other quick things before we
deep dive.
How long is premaritalcounseling?
What's the typical length ofpremarital counseling?
Is it six weeks, eight weeks?
You know, I've kind of seenthings all over the board yeah,
yeah, that varies with eachprogram.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Each, each counselor, has their own modality, what I
mean?
Their own modality and umapproach.
There's some excuse me, there'ssome uh programs that are set
up for a certain amount of timeand there's some people who just
want to kind of make that astandard for them up until they
get married, right Again, that'sa smaller portion of the
(08:15):
population, but I do see thiskind of starting to become a
thing.
You know, we may, we've talkedabout this before.
We're just, I mean, singleness.
People are getting marriedlater and a lot of that is due
to these fears, right?
These fears of pastrelationships.
How is this going to show up inmy marriage?
How's this going to show up inthis situation?
You know, I've experiencedheartbreak before.
(08:38):
There's people who were marriedor divorced and now are in their
thirties, forties and kind oftrying to refigure that out as
well.
So it can be one of thosethings that may have been
ignored before, but they'restarting to see the utility for
it.
Now.
Premarital, I think, peopleoften think about it as only
trying to resolve issues thatthey're currently having, but
(08:58):
really it's to prevent thingsthat can potentially happen down
the line.
So people, I think get boredwith just learning the skills
and they're not really using ityet.
But again, what they're doingis they're building a foundation
so that when they do encountersomething in the future, then
they're able to.
They're already been practicingit for years, right or months,
whatever the case is.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
That's really what it's for okay, uh, yeah.
so with premarital counseling,you know, I've seen now me being
a single guy.
I've not gone throughpremarital counseling, so I'm
saying this, and then I've seenpre couples go to premarital
(09:40):
counseling with pastors.
And it's just based on myobservation and I I'm a good I
think I'm a good listener and Ikind of pick up on what people
say.
It seems that, again, this isjust my experience.
(10:02):
It just seems that there's adifferent approach between
pastors and counselors how theydo premarital counseling.
I know I'm I know I'm speakingwith a broad brush here, because
there's pastors who are, whohave pastoral counseling degrees
and they're professionalcounselors, so I'm not trying to
like say they can't counsel andI'm not trying to say
(10:23):
counselors aren't, aren'tbiblically biblically based?
okay, um, it seems that pastorstend to take a very practical
approach to premaritalcounseling.
Like a couple comes to them andthey're like we want to get
married, we're getting marriedin six months, can you
premarital counsel us, like?
And so the pastor takes themthrough premarital counseling
and it seems like it's like it'susually maybe they read a book
(10:45):
together or maybe they have likean eight week thing where they
get together once every eightweeks or once a week for eight
weeks with the pastor and theywalk through different topics
like finances, family, and it'salmost like very, very
practically based.
They're not trying to get toodeep past hurts or traumas.
Maybe I'm wrong about that.
They're not trying to get toodeep past hurts or traumas.
(11:07):
Maybe I'm wrong about that.
It seems like the couples whogo to a professional counselor
tend to go a little bit deeperon the trauma side or just past
relationship side of things.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Some of those deep hurts.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Am I wrong about that ?
Like I know you said, they havedifferent modalities, but
that's just my surface levelimpression.
Just seeing all my friends getmarried there's a sob story
there but seeing all of them getmarried and all of them kind of
go through different types ofpremarital counseling, I've just
(11:39):
kind of seen differences there.
I distinctly remember one of mygood friends from college when
he was going through premaritalcounseling.
I don't know if he was seeing apastor or not, I don't remember
, but in that counseling somevery, very deep, traumatic
(11:59):
things came up from hischildhood that he had not
disclosed because it was I mean,he was really, understandably,
he was very, you know, afraid tojust it was abuse, you know
sexual abuse and things likethat, and so he had to disclose
those things to him In thepremarital counseling.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
With his with his fiance.
He ended up disclosing thosethings, and so that was a.
(12:22):
That was a probably the mostserious thing example that I've
heard of.
Others are more kind of likealmost comedic where it's.
They start talking aboutfinances and uh one, you know,
one person is like I'm debt freeand the other one's like I have
80 000 in debt and they're likewhat, like you didn't tell me
about this?
Uh, so there's, I've heardstories like that too, but yeah,
(12:46):
I saw I'm rambling, but give meyour take on this.
No pastors versus counselors.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
It's a great point, you know, because I think a big
part of this is and this iswhere you can also add more on
what ministry actually lookslike for pastors.
But my experience growing upand even now working with you
know seeing how pastors approachit, seeing how counselors would
approach it is pastors are kindof like on a timeline, right.
They're thinking to themselves,okay, what's a good amount of
(13:13):
time where I can talk aboutthese biblical principles, these
things about marriage that wecan cover together and prepare
them enough, right, so that theycan then make that next step
into marriage.
So sometimes they try to cut itreally short, right, because
they're thinking to themselves,they're receiving biblical
preaching, they are involved incommunity, they're serving in
(13:34):
the church, so they're seeingall these things and they're all
good things as a Christian tobe doing right.
But then when they look attheir relationship to set up the
foundation for a marriage,they're saying, well, we could
cover all these things.
You know they'll talk aboutprayer, they'll talk about
covenant, they'll talk aboutforgiveness, right, all of these
Christian virtues which aregood, but it's still very
(13:54):
surface level for the most partor they can't go deep enough
because in their minds it's.
They're thinking, well, they'realready receiving all these
other outlets or all these otherways in which we're investing
in their lives through thechurch that six weeks should be
enough, right.
But then you have a situationwhere maybe someone is too
(14:16):
scared to talk about theirtrauma or something from their
past, or maybe the guy or thegirl may feel uncomfortable
sharing something that'straumatic, so the pastor may not
feel the need to explore it.
Right?
And one of the things thatthey'll often talk about is
radical honesty.
Okay, radical honesty.
Let's bring everything out onthe table, we'll deal with it
(14:37):
now.
And they try to resolve thatwith four to six weeks.
And you can't do that, right,you're talking about old
patterns, old behaviors that are, or patterns and behaviors that
have been there for such a longtime.
It's not going to break inthose four to six weeks, right?
So I haven't heard of manypastors who go through 12, 16
(14:58):
weeks with a couple justprocessing trauma, or processing
past behaviors, or processingcurrent behaviors, bad habits,
you know, hidden things, right,addictions, things like that.
Those things can't be resolvedin that six to eight week
program that they've created,right?
So they're thinking about that.
It's not just their only couplethat they're counseling.
(15:20):
They have other couples thatthey're counseling, so it seems
to be a time crunch ministrywise, that it is efficient in a
way to do line up with somebiblical principles.
But not all of them do, and Ithink that's why pastors maybe
(15:58):
avoid that.
They talk more so about theprinciples and like forgiveness,
right, forgiveness and humility, that's a big deal, like those
are important things for amarriage.
But what does that look like ina conflict, right?
So a professional counselor maydo some role play with them.
Okay, tell me about your mostrecent argument and let's see if
(16:19):
we can show me how you guyskind of dealt with that.
Okay, so he'll present it tothem and they start talking and
he kind of gets a good view oftheir communication style and
how they're missing each other.
He'll get them to talk witheach other.
All of these different thingsthat for a pastor, I think they
look at them and they'll say,well, they're just being
prideful, they just need tohumble themselves, right?
(16:39):
So they're not reallyaddressing the core issue.
It's more so wanting to get thequick fix, you're being
disobedient to God, you're notpracticing the Christian virtues
and that's why you'restruggling with this, right, and
let's say, the couple fixesthat for two to three weeks the
pattern is going to come back toit.
Right, they're going to go backto their old patterns because
(17:01):
in that sense they're trying toplease the pastor and try to
show him hey, we're being humble, we're being, we're forgiving
each other, but we also want toget married at the timeline that
we've set right.
So the couple, the pastor, theyboth have their own timeline.
So all of those things kind ofputs everyone in this rush mode
(17:21):
of I need to get this done sothat the marriage can take place
right and with a professionalcounselor.
They're going to be setting upsome goals and they're going to
be looking how are we meetingthose goals?
Have your communication habitsactually changed, and so on.
So again, it can vary becauseagain, counselors do different
(17:43):
things.
But I think what I've seen, themost distinct factor between
pastors, is that they'll focuson faith, covenant before God,
the lifelong commitment, sinforgiveness, spiritual growth,
prayer right and there is a lotof research on that too.
I think it was something like5% of couples that pray together
(18:05):
every single night, like theirdivorce rate.
I mean, the divorce rate forthem is 5% For couples who pray
together every night.
Divorce rate is 5%, which isgreat, right.
So it's a sense of connection.
It's, at the end of your day,you're talking with God, you're
talking with each other.
That makes sense to me, right?
So those are things that thepastors would emphasize With
(18:27):
professional counseling, again,we'll talk about finances, sex,
conflict resolution, behavioralchange, communication, training
and all these different things.
And, yes, they focus more onthose skills that may be missed
by pastors or just not reallyseen as important for pastors,
(18:47):
because they're thinking aboutheart change, right.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Well, that brings me to another question then, yes,
sir, premarital counselingversus pre-engagement counseling
, yeah, which is better?
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (19:02):
That's a good question.
Yeah, I think that there issomething to be said about
pre-engagement counseling.
Right To that example that Ishared with you earlier, that
other podcast.
They started that really earlyon in their relationship.
When Christians start dating,they're typically dating with
(19:25):
the intent to marry, right?
So I like you, you like me, weget along with each other.
Okay, let's become official.
Okay, at what point in time doyou start going to counseling?
Right, there's a financialpiece to that too, so that's
another investment in therelationship.
So I think most people say let'swait till we actually engage
(19:46):
and then we can start doing thepremarital counseling.
But what if you have badcommunication habits before you
get engaged, right?
And now you're trying to fixthat within your timeline again
between the proposal to thewedding day?
So again, it just puts thispressure on we got to get this
(20:07):
before we get married and thenwe'll see what happens, right?
So I think that there's anargument to be made for
pre-engagement counseling.
At least maybe four to sixsessions, right, just to kind of
get a feel.
For before I make thiscommitment to this person, how
do we actually communicate andhow do we have this third party
outside of us to say, hey,here's an area that might not be
(20:29):
good and let's work on this,and then you can decide after
that whether you want toactually commit.
So I think there is an argumentthere.
That's a good question.
I don't know how many peoplewould want to do that, right?
Because if people are alreadyavoiding premarital counseling
when you're engaged, I canprobably see that happen.
Uh, before before engagement,right?
(20:52):
Oh no, you're moving too fast,too serious, like, do we really
want to?
So there's all those otherfactors, right?
Speaker 2 (20:57):
yeah, I've, I've always thought, you know, I
remember hearing the for thefirst time about pre-engagement
counseling.
I was a sophomore in collegeand the professor she was a
psychology professor.
You might you probably haveheard of her if I were to say
her name, uh and she mentionedthat her and her husband went
through pre-engagementcounseling.
That was the first time I heardof it.
I was like, wow, that's, that'sinteresting you know, and I
(21:19):
thought it was kind of likeunorthodox and kind of like
strange at the time because itwas just so unusual.
Yeah, the more I thought aboutI'm like you know, it actually
makes sense.
Like you, if you go to, youknow, go into counseling, real
like pre-marital, pre-maritalcounseling, pre-engagement
counseling, that kind it'sdesigned to, like you said,
(21:40):
discover bad habits, uh, thoughtpatterns, past traumas, all
those things, any of that cancome up.
So like you're really rollingthe dice when you go into
counseling, sometimes Notrolling the dice like we're just
gambling on each other, butwhen you go, there are unknown.
(22:04):
Unknowns when you go intocounseling, especially with
another person, I mean, letalone yourself, but especially
with another person.
And so if to get engaged andthen to do counseling, it seems
like the and I get, I'm just I'msaying this as a single dude
Okay, like I'm not standing injudgment over anyone, cause
(22:25):
someone's gonna be like well,tim, what do you know?
You know, just hear it, I canhear it now.
Like I'm not standing injudgment over anyone, uh, cause
someone's gonna be like well,tim, what do you know?
You know, just hear it, I canhear it now.
Like I listened to your episode.
What do you know about that?
Um, yeah.
I'll just leave it at that.
But yeah, like you're uh, you,like you said, there's a
pressure to get it fixed ifsomething comes up.
(22:46):
Yeah, uh.
So at the very least I wouldsay, if you get engaged and
you're going to do marriagecounseling, maybe do that
marriage count, that premaritalcounseling I keep saying
marriage counseling, that's likeyou know, on into the one, on
into the marriage, butpremarital counseling, at least
maybe do that before you set adate.
(23:07):
Yeah, that's a good idea too.
Yeah, you know, at the very Ithink at the very least do that,
because then there's nopressure like, ah, the wedding's
in six months, I just got mydress fitted.
You know, we gotta get, wegotta fix this trauma issue.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Come on Like you know , and even then, and even then
that's that's the other part ofit too, cause once those things
start coming up or, um, theclients in session now it
becomes so real it's like, oh no, does this mean that we need to
break up?
Right, and everyone fears that,right, especially after you
(23:41):
make that engagement proposal.
Um, so I can see all of thosethings come up as well.
Now, again, I don't know ifthis is going to become popular,
moving forward, where peopleare going to seek the pre
engagement counseling, but I dosee it as a, as a benefit, at
least a couple of sessions justto get a feel for, okay, what
are some things that areunresolved here.
(24:02):
But the other issue that I seeis that there have been many
instances and this goes back,just, it's a generational thing
where you don't talk about yourtraumas, you don't talk about
your past, you don't talk aboutdeep hurts and so on where
people would get married and inthe marriage they would find out
about this horrific past, right, and it starts to cause
(24:24):
problems in the marriage, right,and it starts to cause problems
in the marriage.
So, for example, a very commonone is women who don't share
when they were sexually abusedby a family member or close
friend of the family, right.
So at some point in themarriage could be in the first
year, second year, maybe, firstfive years where the wife starts
responding very defensively orvery guarded when it comes to
(24:49):
sexual behavior, right.
So she starts rememberingthings about her past and the
husband's confused and I'd hit.
You know what's going on?
Did I do something wrong?
So there's this confusion andthen she drops the bomb of well,
when I was five years old, Iwas sexually abused by this
person.
Well, when I was, you know,five years old, I was sexually
abused by this person.
And you know, when you did that, it made me feel this way.
(25:10):
And it's just their bodyresponding, right, it's a
protective measure.
So their body's trying to tellthem, hey, something's wrong,
but it's with someone that theylove.
So now the woman herself shefeels shame because she's making
her husband feel unwanted orashamed for doing what he did
right.
She's making her husband feelunwanted or ashamed for doing
what he did Right.
So it just creates this wholenew dynamic.
All because that didn't come upbefore the marriage, right,
(25:34):
because they're focusing on hey,we get along, we love each
other, we're attracted to eachother all these things and
hopefully that will overcomethese traumatic wounds.
Right?
And what they find out oncethey're married is that oh no,
something woke up in me.
This is not good.
So is there something wrongwith me?
Should I tell my husband?
Should I keep it to myself,like, what do I do here, right?
(25:56):
So then once it really starts toimpact their marriage, then
they say, hey, we need to go tocounseling because we need to
address this right.
So that's usually the lastditch effort that couples have
when they start to experienceall of these different things
and it's affecting theirmarriage very significantly.
So, ok, well, we need to go tocounseling.
But depending on when it isthat they decide to go, you know
(26:19):
there's still hope for it, andI'm just like there's always
hope, you can always work thingsout.
You just got to put in the work.
But for some couples, if they gotoo late, then it's like man,
it's just been years and yearsof this repressed anger and
resentment towards each otherand now it's just falling apart
and it's just one more effort.
(26:39):
Let's go to counseling, seewhat happens, and things just
fall apart even more becausethere's so much more to be
explored.
So I really like that you askedthat question because I think
that is something that movingforward whether it be with our
students or people that I knowis that I would recommend that,
hey, you know, before ifsomeone's getting serious, I say
(27:00):
, hey, man, you know what,before you pop the question, go
to counseling, do four to sixsessions to just assess your
communication patterns.
Talk about finances if you'recomfortable with that.
Already that's a very sensitivetopic.
Sexual past, how thatinfluences as well.
So just to get a feel, and Ithink that'll give them a better
read of okay, we've discussedthis.
(27:22):
I think I still want to moveforward.
Then you can pop the question.
Right, every couple is going tobe hopeful.
I think I still want to moveforward.
Then you can pop the questionright.
Every couple is going to behopeful pre-engagement and even
after the engagement.
They want to make it work.
That's a good thing, but theywould also have to be honest
with themselves.
Is that if there is somethingserious to address, then yeah,
let's work that out, or sadly,they may need to break up, right
(27:43):
, and I think everyone's kind ofscared of that.
So I can see a lot of peopleavoiding it, but I can also see
a smaller group like saying hey,you know what that makes sense,
let's do it.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
It's just a matter of how they'll deal with the fears
afterwards.
Yeah, and for the objection youmentioned it, the objection of
like, oh, this is money.
You know it costs a lot ofmoney for counseling.
This is a mental trick that Iuse on myself for things like
this and maybe it helps otherpeople.
Let's say, for instance, likecounseling, if you look at it as
(28:18):
an investment, you're investingin yourself or you're investing
in your relationship.
It's not a bill, it's aninvestment that actually helps
you.
So let's say, six sessions ofcounseling, ballpark 150 a
session.
Okay, so that's, uh, how muchis that like?
Uh, six 150 dollars, somethinglike that.
(28:38):
Let's just say, oh wait, no, no, sorry, my math is terrible
it's 900 yeah 900, yeah, 900bucks.
Okay, sounds like a lot of money, money upfront for a
relationship where you're notengaged.
But think about it this way howmuch does an engagement ring
cost?
An engagement ring is easilygoing to cost three to four
times that much.
(29:00):
You know easily.
How much does a wedding cost?
Yeah, a lot, yeah, a lot, a lot.
And then and then, sadly, howmuch does marriage counseling
cost on the backend?
And then, how much does divorcecost?
Yeah, you know court fees andall the lawyers and all these
(29:23):
things you know.
So if you look, if you look atit in that light, that this
small little investment of 900bucks for a relationship that
you're really serious about andthat you're thinking about
committing to for the rest ofyour life, if you think about it
in that sense that this, thissmall little investment, can
save you a whole lot of moneydown the road, even at just
(29:46):
avoiding further for theirmarriage counseling and and
divorce, maybe down the road,you know, like, yeah, it can
help you avoid those thingspotentially.
So I would think of it as aninvestment like that, yeah I
like that.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
I think that reminded me of this.
Um, there was a podcast I waslistening to and they said it
should be a lot, a lot harderfor you to get married than to
get divorced, meaning all thework, right, all the work should
be done before marriage.
And if you work so hard for itand you invest all that time
(30:23):
right, it could be money, itcould be time, all of these
different things and then youjust make it the most difficult
process.
And if you're still togetherafter that difficult process,
then that's a really good thing.
I mean, it sets a really goodfoundation for moving forward.
So it makes divorce less likelyto happen because you've gone
through so much together, right.
And there's a big debate aboutthat, because some couples, you
(30:44):
know, they get, they get meeteach other and they propose
within three months and thenthey're married by month six,
month, eight, right.
And most Christians or mostpeople will look at that and say
, wow, that was fast.
But then they have goodmarriages, right.
What's the likelihood of that?
I mean, the average amount oftime that a couple is together
before getting married is abouta year, which is a good amount
(31:05):
of time to get to know anotherperson.
Again, that depends a lot onhow much they're sharing with
each other, right, again, thispre-engagement type of
counseling approach where we'retalking about the issues,
finances, all these differentthings and, yeah, so that's a
good timeline, right, beforeproposing getting to know each
other for a year, veryintentionally talking about the
(31:28):
difficult things past traumas,how you want to look towards the
future and so on.
But what about the couples whoknow each other for three months
, six months?
And we probably have listenerswho have had this experience
where they knew by month fourthat they wanted to get married,
right, so they propose and gotmarried by month A or by the
year, and again, most peoplewould see it and say that's fast
(31:51):
, right, but really what itcomes down to is what are they
covering within the time thatthey're getting to know each
other?
That's really what it comesdown to, because the other
approach is the guy who extendsthat time so this couple has
been dating for one, two, three,four years extends that time.
So this couple has been datingfor one, two, three, four years
(32:11):
and the illusion is that becausewe've spent so much time
together, that gives us a higherchance of not divorcing or a
better chance of having a bettermarriage.
So again, there's a lot ofdebate there, because I have
seen more recently like there'scouples who have been dating for
a very long time and then allof a sudden you just hear that
they break, that they break up,break off the engagement and
you're wondering what happened.
(32:32):
Well, they started going tocounseling and they started
realizing that there was thingsthat they hadn't uncovered yet
and now it just feels like adeception for both, like, well,
I didn't know that we've beendating for four years and things
come up and now that causesthat breakdown and distrust.
So it you know it makes sense,better that you know better to
break up before then thanafterwards as much.
I hate to say it, but it's lesspainful.
(32:53):
It's still painful, but youknow it's not a lifetime thing.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
All right.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
So what else?
What else you got?
Yeah?
So I think the biggest thinghere and we've already covered a
lot of this is just thedifferences between how
counselors do and what pastorsdo.
So I touched on this a littlebit, just the communication
piece that a lot of counselorswill focus on, one of the
(33:20):
approaches that they'll teachand again, you can share with me
how you feel about this, butusing the I feel statements
instead of you always typestatements.
So this is a skill that they'lluse within counseling and say
you know, as soon as you say theword you, you started off wrong
.
Right, there was this, thiscomedian who was talking about
(33:42):
marriage and he was saying thebest advice that I don't know if
it was his father or a pastor,someone told him.
They said don't say the firstthing that comes to mind, just
pause.
And then it's like okay, gotcha.
And he says okay, ready, numbertwo, don't say the second thing
(34:03):
that comes to mind.
He's like okay, good, wait tillthe third, and then remember
just to be very calm.
So basically the idea is, youknow, sometimes we just need to
pause and just listen and justwait to see what happens,
because somebody is just anemotional high for either person
(34:23):
, right?
So pausing, this idea ofpausing before you respond,
giving yourself some time toreally think through, not to get
emotional and so on, and not topoint the finger.
So in counseling you'll see alot of that.
Like I feel you know, alonesometimes when you choose your
friends over me.
And again, for me, coming froma Latino background,
conservative Baptist church,anything that had to do with
(34:45):
feelings was why am I going toshare how I feel?
That doesn't solve anythingLike let's problem solve this,
right.
But the reality is that inrelationships you do have to
provide space for that, becausefeelings are real, we experience
it.
We don't let them dominate us,right, but we do acknowledge
that they're there.
I do feel, um, disrespectedwhen, when you take your parents
(35:10):
advice over mine, or somethinglike that.
Or I feel, um, unwanted whenyou're not affectionate, right,
little things like that.
So that doesn't.
That doesn't create thisjudgment on the other person.
Like you never give meaffection, it's very different
than I feel rejected when youdon't show affection, right?
So, again, just these littlesmall communication tips that
(35:34):
they have.
Another thing that they'll do issomething called the conflict
GPS, right.
They'll role play a couple ofarguments right?
What if one of us wants kidsand the other doesn't?
Right?
They'll role play a couple ofarguments, right?
What if one of us wants kidsand the other doesn't?
Right?
So there's a lot of focus hereon what are your core values?
Right?
And we know that in today'sculture there is this struggle
(35:55):
with comparison.
Right, we compare ourselves,our relationships are who we are
as individuals, with otherpeople, you know, due to social
media and so on, and we thinkthat people are actually living
a life that they're actually not, and there's a lot of
comparison with that.
That to say, when it comes tovalues like wanting kids or not
wanting kids, like that'ssomething that you both should
(36:17):
agree on because that's a bigpart of the future, right?
Most people who get married endup having kids.
Now, again, there's this trendwhere some couples are getting
married and they just don't wantto have kids and they just want
to kind of live this as asingle couple type of life.
But I think for most Christians, there is the desire for kids.
So if you can't agree on that,there's this belief that, well,
(36:41):
we'll make it work some way.
Maybe he'll change his mind,maybe she'll change her mind,
and you really can't do that.
A lot of counselors willemphasize don't work on what
could change, work on where theyare now, and I think that's
such an important principle.
You got to focus on what youhave in front of you, not the
potential of what it can be.
(37:01):
Money talks, creating budgets,discussing debt, planning for
financial curveballs They'llbring that up in session.
How would you deal, or whatwould you do if one of you loses
their job?
Right, very interestingregarding that, women are more
likely to leave a marriage if ahusband were to lose his job.
(37:24):
Men are more likely to leave amarriage if a husband were to
lose his job.
Men are more likely to leavetheir wives if they get sick and
the wives would stay.
It's very interesting, thosetwo specific ones If who gets
sick?
So for if the husband gets sick, wives are more likely to stay.
If the wife gets sick, husbandsare more likely to leave
because they lose, whether it bethe physical connection or the
(37:46):
emotional connection.
Whatever it is, they go andseek that out elsewhere.
When it comes to finances, ifthe wife loses her job,
obviously, men usually being theprimary providers, they stay,
but if the husband were to losehis job, wives often leave those
relationships as well.
It's a higher percentage.
So it's very interesting whenyou look at all these different
(38:08):
things.
So when it comes up inpremarital counseling, you talk
about that.
So what would happen, or whatwould you do, if one of you guys
loses your job and you let themhave that conversation?
Right, Okay, what would we do?
Right, what do we do if, withthis, that you know you have
more debt than I do?
How do we want to resolve that?
So you get them to have thosereally tough conversations and
(38:29):
you're able to examine a lot oftheir communication style.
Ok, last one here, justintimacy builders exercises to
deepen emotional and physicalconnection, connection.
Very often, once people getmarried, where you start to see
(38:49):
the data shows that once peoplehave their first child,
relationship satisfaction startsto go down.
So, first child, you knowthey're, they're happy.
First child, they have thefirst child and then
relationship satisfaction startsto go down and then, once they
hit about teenage years, then itstarts to go back up again
Because again, children are moreindependent, they don't need as
much from the parents anymoreand the couple can then focus on
(39:11):
themselves and plan for thefuture and so on.
So there's those expectationsright, what do you do?
What if you have a sick child?
What do you get a child with adisability?
Right?
How is it going to change yourdynamic?
And all these communicationpatterns and intimacy builders,
these check-ins they're smallinvestments, to your point.
They're small investments thathave huge returns if you do it
(39:34):
right.
A 10 to 15 minute check-in iskind of a good way to not start
your day, but how you would endyour day when you get home from
work.
So, hey, how was your day?
You're just checking in.
Hey, let's have someface-to-face time.
Then you have dinner and so on.
So those check-ins are veryimportant but people don't see
(39:54):
them as, oh, that can make ahuge difference.
It does, it really does.
The research shows just thoselittle bids for connection.
They call them Bids forconnection.
They call them bids forconnection.
I'm just looking for you to seeme, even if it's for 10, 15
minutes face-to-face interaction.
So a lot of different things.
Hopefully, maybe in the futurewe can do an episode on maybe
(40:14):
some of these, these models anddifferent approaches to marital
counseling.
But yeah, for now, do you haveany other any other questions
about the process or how it maybe different from pastoral?
Speaker 2 (40:26):
counseling.
I mean, I was gonna ask, likefor those who haven't been
through premarital counseling,what to expect, but I think you,
I think you pretty much coveredit, like some of the topics
that would be covered.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
Yeah, and let me give , I guess, one last thing here,
just kind of where they mayoverlap, just kind of whether it
be religious or secular,premarital counseling works best
when couples go in beforeproblems arise.
So it's preventative, right.
So sometimes couples think that, oh, we have a communication
issue, let's go to premaritalcounseling so we can address
(40:58):
that.
But let's say you don't haveany issue.
Let's say, for the most part,you're pretty healthy
individuals and you get alongwell, you have a supportive
family, you go to a great church, you're growing in your faith,
all of these things, all ofthose things are good, right,
right.
So don't necessarily see it as,oh, we need to go only if we
have problems.
You could see it as apreventative measure or, as you
(41:29):
put it, tim, as an investment.
Right, it's just an addedinvestment of, hey, you know
what, we have some good skills,we get along well, but let's go
to see what else we can add toour tool belt.
That way, when you have adifferent problem arise, hey,
we're going through premaritalcounseling, we have these other
(41:50):
tools that we can use, right, sothat that's one part.
They won't practice.
The tools that you learn, andone big one that's often
communicated is active listening, can am I hearing you correctly
?
You repeat what you hear fromyour partner and they confirm
yes, that's what I meant.
Okay, and now you have actuallyclear communication.
And we don't do that, right inrelationships.
Often each person wants to getacross their point and they're
just missing each other, right,completely missing each other.
(42:11):
So in counseling what we wouldteach is hey, when you hear your
partner say this, you check inand say, okay, I heard you say
this, did I get that right?
Say, no, you completely missedit.
Okay, tell me, tell me again.
I'm not sure where I missed you.
So, again, it creates thatexpectation that you're trying
to understand each other.
And lastly, just the aspect oftackling difficult topics.
(42:34):
Right, sex, money, kids thoseare difficult topics to talk
about on your own, sometimeslike who brings it up?
Right, we would say well, theman needs to bring up those
conversations.
But if there's trauma there, hemay not want to, right, he may
not want to touch on thosetopics or it may bring up
something sensitive for him inthe relationship.
(42:55):
It may make him feel vulnerable.
So when you have someone as anoutside observer who's going to
jump into that, they can bringit up with you know, with a lot
of openness.
One professor told me.
He said if you, as a counselor,don't touch on these difficult
topics, they're not going totouch on it right, because
(43:16):
you're the one who has theability to, to explore those
with them and they they're goingto feel a sense of confidence
because they're being guidedthrough the process, right.
So for those of us who arecounseling, it's I got to go
there, even though I know it'sgoing to be uncomfortable.
You put them in that situationand that's going to show you how
they're actually communicatingand how they resolve issues and
(43:37):
so on.
So all that to say, if you arein this space, if you have been
in a relationship, I think oneof the ideas that we've proposed
is this pre-engagementcounseling.
I would encourage that.
Maybe four to six sessions, Ithink that's pretty good, where
it gives you a good amount toconsider and practice before
(43:58):
making a decision.
But again, this is the aspectwhere you're going to look at
all these different things andmake the decision that works out
best for you guys.
But I would highly highlyencourage it.
Well, that's a great talk.
Speaker 2 (44:11):
Yeah, thank you man.
Yeah, hopefully you guysenjoyed that.
Speaker 1 (44:15):
Yeah, we will come back with another big topic
similar to or related torelationships, prenuptial
agreements.
I'm looking forward to that one, tim, all right, all right,
guys, we'll see you next time.
All right, everyone, welcome back to the Psych and
Theo podcast.
Sam and Tim here.
We have had a lot of busy weeks.
We're coming to the end of thesemester and we're finding some
times here to record andhopefully it's not a series, but
we're going to be talking abouta bunch of different topics
here.
Hopefully you'll find theminteresting.
(00:23):
And today's topic we're going totalk about the benefits of
pre-marital counseling.
Uh, specifically because we Imean just dealing with
relationships in general.
Most of the population I workwith is college students, but a
lot of you guys who arelistening to the podcast are
actually between 25 to 45, 25 to50 in that range.
(00:44):
So maybe hearing this topiccould be a reminder of some of
the things that maybe you wouldhave discussed in premarital or
you may see some relation to itand regarding, maybe, where you
currently are in your marriageor, for those of you who are
single, just kind of thinkingabout, okay, as I'm walking
through this stage of life, whatare some things, that
(01:05):
conversation that I'm supposedto have when I start dating, and
so on.
So we have a good mix of both.
We have a lot of singles, a lotof married, married couples as
well, and, yeah, I hope you findthis, this episode, to be a
blessing, and I think this was.
This was a topic recommendedfrom a listener, tim, or was it
a friend, just someone who justthought of it?
Speaker 2 (01:30):
I actually don't remember.
I thought this was yoursuggestion, so maybe it came
from a comment.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
No, no, actually, yeah, we were texting and he
said, hey, I heard, or someoneshared.
This would be a good topic forus to cover that one and the one
that we'll be talking aboutnext.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
I never remember what I text.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
You have to it's all.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
It's all good okay yeah, if someone that we're
doing anyways.
Yeah, I don't know whosuggested that to me.
It must have been someone atchurch.
Uh, it's all I can think of.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Yeah if we figured out what throw the name out
there.
Just so you know that.
No, we're just kidding.
We won't do that.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
All right, so benefits, the benefits of
marriage counseling, okay, sowhere do you want to take this?
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Well, let's introduce the topic first with why this
is actually a very good thingfor people to do.
Obviously it's a the researchshows that it is a positive
thing for couples to do beforethey get married.
Actually, 31% and when you'redoing premarital counseling, 31%
(02:29):
have a lower divorce risk and30% of people who get premarital
counseling report higherrelationship satisfaction.
And there's a lot of otherresearch in which I'll get into
right now practices that we dothat help that research in which
I'll get into right now ourpractices that we do that help
that.
But I think what happens oftenis that those, especially in
Christian circles, saying well,you know, we go to the same
(02:51):
church, we have some mentorsthat we meet with individually,
we have good teaching in ourchurch, so really we don't
really need to do premaritalcounseling.
So this is within the church.
Now, depending on the church,some emphasize it.
Some pastors actually requireit before they marry the couple.
(03:11):
So that's a good thing.
But usually they'll come at itfrom a biblical perspective and
show a lot of biblicalprinciples, and I'm not saying
that's bad, I'm saying thatsometimes they may miss some of
the other things that we woulddiscuss in professional
counseling when we're doingpremarital counseling.
So we'll see a little bit ofcontrast between how maybe
(03:34):
pastors approach it and howcounselors would approach it and
see if there's any overlapthere.
But yeah, the reason for thistopic is to explain how crucial
it is to establish a foundationfor one's marriage.
Okay, we'll discuss about whatpremarital counseling may look
like and the differences, as Imentioned earlier.
(03:58):
Okay, so first off, I guessmaybe a question that people are
having is what is premaritalcounseling and is it worth it?
So hopefully I'm able toexplain what that looks like.
But, tim, before I start withthat, are there any questions
that I guess came up as I wassharing a little bit about how
in Christian circles sometimesthe need for it is either not
(04:19):
considered or just kind ofignored because we are in a
church setting?
Speaker 2 (04:26):
I, you know, I think that stat.
You said 31% seek marriagecounseling.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
No, those who go to premarital counseling have a 31%
lower divorce risk and thosewho go to premarital counseling
report 30% higher relationshipsatisfaction.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Interesting Okay.
Report 30 higher relationshipsatisfaction.
Interesting okay, uh, is youknow.
I'm just curious is marriagecounseling common among
non-christians?
Do you know?
Marriage, premarital yeah,premarital, yeah, sorry.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Premarital counseling yeah yeah, I actually didn't,
didn't really look at that, justlook more so at the general
stats of people who actually dogo to counseling.
So this is just general uspopulation numbers.
Like I said, it's one of thosethings that's so important, but
it's often seen as well we getalong, we have people who
support us and that's enoughright, things have gone well.
Right.
We'll often hear couples say,well, we don't really have that
(05:19):
big problems and the ones thatwe do have, we've talked, talked
about it, you know.
I do see this new trend, though, where people are seeing
premarital counseling as a wayto divorce, proof their marriage
.
So they start really early on.
So after a couple of, or whenthey make their relationship
official, they start considering, hey, let's just go to
(05:40):
counseling individually and thenalso let's go together.
So it's a small percentage ofpeople, but there are people
doing that, and I think whatpeople are becoming aware of is
there's a lot of unresolvedtraumas from their past or
unresolved issues from theirpast, previous breakup trees,
relationships where, when theycome to counseling, they want to
(06:03):
address it straight on right.
So they're asking the counselorto say, to explain what's going
to affect us if we get marriedright.
So there's this really famouspodcaster, the School of
Greatness.
His name is Lewis Hose, he's anathlete, he was an Olympian,
and so on.
He talks about how he and hisnow wife did that.
(06:25):
He was so scared because he hadso many broken relationships
before her that he said you knowwhat?
I've never done this before.
I really like this girl.
I want to be serious about it.
I know that we're going to stirsome things up in each other
and I want to address it thereand that.
So he talks about it and kindof followed him along that
journey and uh, yeah, I mean,they seem to be doing well.
(06:48):
They're not a christian couple,um, but he's a very insightful
person and just wanted to dothings a different way, right?
So so yeah.
So those are kind of the the uh,the stats.
They're actually 79 percent ofparticipants have stronger
marriages long term compared tothose who skip it.
(07:11):
Okay, there's people who startpremarital counseling and they
don't really finish it either.
Right, they'll start, they likethe things that they're talking
about and because they don'tsee any direct relevance to
their life in that moment, theykind of feel like, well, maybe
this is not that big of a deal.
Like we've already talked aboutall these things.
I think it's okay for us tojust move forward with the
(07:33):
marriage.
But they don't realize thatthey're building skill sets so
that when they do get married itcan be helpful for them.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Okay, okay, just some other quick things before we
deep dive.
How long is premaritalcounseling?
What's the typical length ofpremarital counseling?
Is it six weeks, eight weeks?
You know, I've kind of seenthings all over the board yeah,
yeah, that varies with eachprogram.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Each, each counselor, has their own modality, what I
mean?
Their own modality and umapproach.
There's some excuse me, there'ssome uh programs that are set
up for a certain amount of timeand there's some people who just
want to kind of make that astandard for them up until they
get married, right Again, that'sa smaller portion of the
(08:15):
population, but I do see thiskind of starting to become a
thing.
You know, we may, we've talkedabout this before.
We're just, I mean, singleness.
People are getting marriedlater and a lot of that is due
to these fears, right?
These fears of pastrelationships.
How is this going to show up inmy marriage?
How's this going to show up inthis situation?
You know, I've experiencedheartbreak before.
(08:38):
There's people who were marriedor divorced and now are in their
thirties, forties and kind oftrying to refigure that out as
well.
So it can be one of thosethings that may have been
ignored before, but they'restarting to see the utility for
it.
Now.
Premarital, I think, peopleoften think about it as only
trying to resolve issues thatthey're currently having, but
(08:58):
really it's to prevent thingsthat can potentially happen down
the line.
So people, I think get boredwith just learning the skills
and they're not really using ityet.
But again, what they're doingis they're building a foundation
so that when they do encountersomething in the future, then
they're able to.
They're already been practicingit for years, right or months,
whatever the case is.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
That's really what it's for okay, uh, yeah.
so with premarital counseling,you know, I've seen now me being
a single guy.
I've not gone throughpremarital counseling, so I'm
saying this, and then I've seenpre couples go to premarital
(09:40):
counseling with pastors.
And it's just based on myobservation and I I'm a good I
think I'm a good listener and Ikind of pick up on what people
say.
It seems that, again, this isjust my experience.
(10:02):
It just seems that there's adifferent approach between
pastors and counselors how theydo premarital counseling.
I know I'm I know I'm speakingwith a broad brush here, because
there's pastors who are, whohave pastoral counseling degrees
and they're professionalcounselors, so I'm not trying to
like say they can't counsel andI'm not trying to say
(10:23):
counselors aren't, aren'tbiblically biblically based?
okay, um, it seems that pastorstend to take a very practical
approach to premaritalcounseling.
Like a couple comes to them andthey're like we want to get
married, we're getting marriedin six months, can you
premarital counsel us, like?
And so the pastor takes themthrough premarital counseling
and it seems like it's like it'susually maybe they read a book
(10:45):
together or maybe they have likean eight week thing where they
get together once every eightweeks or once a week for eight
weeks with the pastor and theywalk through different topics
like finances, family, and it'salmost like very, very
practically based.
They're not trying to get toodeep past hurts or traumas.
Maybe I'm wrong about that.
They're not trying to get toodeep past hurts or traumas.
(11:07):
Maybe I'm wrong about that.
It seems like the couples whogo to a professional counselor
tend to go a little bit deeperon the trauma side or just past
relationship side of things.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
Some of those deep hurts.
Speaker 2 (11:19):
Am I wrong about that ?
Like I know you said, they havedifferent modalities, but
that's just my surface levelimpression.
Just seeing all my friends getmarried there's a sob story
there but seeing all of them getmarried and all of them kind of
go through different types ofpremarital counseling, I've just
(11:39):
kind of seen differences there.
I distinctly remember one of mygood friends from college when
he was going through premaritalcounseling.
I don't know if he was seeing apastor or not, I don't remember
, but in that counseling somevery, very deep, traumatic
(11:59):
things came up from hischildhood that he had not
disclosed because it was I mean,he was really, understandably,
he was very, you know, afraid tojust it was abuse, you know
sexual abuse and things likethat, and so he had to disclose
those things to him In thepremarital counseling.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
With his with his fiance.
He ended up disclosing thosethings, and so that was a.
(12:22):
That was a probably the mostserious thing example that I've
heard of.
Others are more kind of likealmost comedic where it's.
They start talking aboutfinances and uh one, you know,
one person is like I'm debt freeand the other one's like I have
80 000 in debt and they're likewhat, like you didn't tell me
about this?
Uh, so there's, I've heardstories like that too, but yeah,
(12:46):
I saw I'm rambling, but give meyour take on this.
No pastors versus counselors.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
It's a great point, you know, because I think a big
part of this is and this iswhere you can also add more on
what ministry actually lookslike for pastors.
But my experience growing upand even now working with you
know seeing how pastors approachit, seeing how counselors would
approach it is pastors are kindof like on a timeline, right.
They're thinking to themselves,okay, what's a good amount of
(13:13):
time where I can talk aboutthese biblical principles, these
things about marriage that wecan cover together and prepare
them enough, right, so that theycan then make that next step
into marriage.
So sometimes they try to cut itreally short, right, because
they're thinking to themselves,they're receiving biblical
preaching, they are involved incommunity, they're serving in
(13:34):
the church, so they're seeingall these things and they're all
good things as a Christian tobe doing right.
But then when they look attheir relationship to set up the
foundation for a marriage,they're saying, well, we could
cover all these things.
You know they'll talk aboutprayer, they'll talk about
covenant, they'll talk aboutforgiveness, right, all of these
Christian virtues which aregood, but it's still very
(13:54):
surface level for the most partor they can't go deep enough
because in their minds it's.
They're thinking, well, they'realready receiving all these
other outlets or all these otherways in which we're investing
in their lives through thechurch that six weeks should be
enough, right.
But then you have a situationwhere maybe someone is too
(14:16):
scared to talk about theirtrauma or something from their
past, or maybe the guy or thegirl may feel uncomfortable
sharing something that'straumatic, so the pastor may not
feel the need to explore it.
Right?
And one of the things thatthey'll often talk about is
radical honesty.
Okay, radical honesty.
Let's bring everything out onthe table, we'll deal with it
(14:37):
now.
And they try to resolve thatwith four to six weeks.
And you can't do that, right,you're talking about old
patterns, old behaviors that are, or patterns and behaviors that
have been there for such a longtime.
It's not going to break inthose four to six weeks, right?
So I haven't heard of manypastors who go through 12, 16
(14:58):
weeks with a couple justprocessing trauma, or processing
past behaviors, or processingcurrent behaviors, bad habits,
you know, hidden things, right,addictions, things like that.
Those things can't be resolvedin that six to eight week
program that they've created,right?
So they're thinking about that.
It's not just their only couplethat they're counseling.
(15:20):
They have other couples thatthey're counseling, so it seems
to be a time crunch ministrywise, that it is efficient in a
way to do line up with somebiblical principles.
But not all of them do, and Ithink that's why pastors maybe
(15:58):
avoid that.
They talk more so about theprinciples and like forgiveness,
right, forgiveness and humility, that's a big deal, like those
are important things for amarriage.
But what does that look like ina conflict, right?
So a professional counselor maydo some role play with them.
Okay, tell me about your mostrecent argument and let's see if
(16:19):
we can show me how you guyskind of dealt with that.
Okay, so he'll present it tothem and they start talking and
he kind of gets a good view oftheir communication style and
how they're missing each other.
He'll get them to talk witheach other.
All of these different thingsthat for a pastor, I think they
look at them and they'll say,well, they're just being
prideful, they just need tohumble themselves, right?
(16:39):
So they're not reallyaddressing the core issue.
It's more so wanting to get thequick fix, you're being
disobedient to God, you're notpracticing the Christian virtues
and that's why you'restruggling with this, right, and
let's say, the couple fixesthat for two to three weeks the
pattern is going to come back toit.
Right, they're going to go backto their old patterns because
(17:01):
in that sense they're trying toplease the pastor and try to
show him hey, we're being humble, we're being, we're forgiving
each other, but we also want toget married at the timeline that
we've set right.
So the couple, the pastor, theyboth have their own timeline.
So all of those things kind ofputs everyone in this rush mode
(17:21):
of I need to get this done sothat the marriage can take place
right and with a professionalcounselor.
They're going to be setting upsome goals and they're going to
be looking how are we meetingthose goals?
Have your communication habitsactually changed, and so on.
So again, it can vary becauseagain, counselors do different
(17:43):
things.
But I think what I've seen, themost distinct factor between
pastors, is that they'll focuson faith, covenant before God,
the lifelong commitment, sinforgiveness, spiritual growth,
prayer right and there is a lotof research on that too.
I think it was something like5% of couples that pray together
(18:05):
every single night, like theirdivorce rate.
I mean, the divorce rate forthem is 5% For couples who pray
together every night.
Divorce rate is 5%, which isgreat, right.
So it's a sense of connection.
It's, at the end of your day,you're talking with God, you're
talking with each other.
That makes sense to me, right?
So those are things that thepastors would emphasize With
(18:27):
professional counseling, again,we'll talk about finances, sex,
conflict resolution, behavioralchange, communication, training
and all these different things.
And, yes, they focus more onthose skills that may be missed
by pastors or just not reallyseen as important for pastors,
(18:47):
because they're thinking aboutheart change, right.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
Well, that brings me to another question then, yes,
sir, premarital counselingversus pre-engagement counseling
, yeah, which is better?
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (19:02):
That's a good question.
Yeah, I think that there issomething to be said about
pre-engagement counseling.
Right To that example that Ishared with you earlier, that
other podcast.
They started that really earlyon in their relationship.
When Christians start dating,they're typically dating with
(19:25):
the intent to marry, right?
So I like you, you like me, weget along with each other.
Okay, let's become official.
Okay, at what point in time doyou start going to counseling?
Right, there's a financialpiece to that too, so that's
another investment in therelationship.
So I think most people say let'swait till we actually engage
(19:46):
and then we can start doing thepremarital counseling.
But what if you have badcommunication habits before you
get engaged, right?
And now you're trying to fixthat within your timeline again
between the proposal to thewedding day?
So again, it just puts thispressure on we got to get this
(20:07):
before we get married and thenwe'll see what happens, right?
So I think that there's anargument to be made for
pre-engagement counseling.
At least maybe four to sixsessions, right, just to kind of
get a feel.
For before I make thiscommitment to this person, how
do we actually communicate andhow do we have this third party
outside of us to say, hey,here's an area that might not be
(20:29):
good and let's work on this,and then you can decide after
that whether you want toactually commit.
So I think there is an argumentthere.
That's a good question.
I don't know how many peoplewould want to do that, right?
Because if people are alreadyavoiding premarital counseling
when you're engaged, I canprobably see that happen.
Uh, before before engagement,right?
(20:52):
Oh no, you're moving too fast,too serious, like, do we really
want to?
So there's all those otherfactors, right?
Speaker 2 (20:57):
yeah, I've, I've always thought, you know, I
remember hearing the for thefirst time about pre-engagement
counseling.
I was a sophomore in collegeand the professor she was a
psychology professor.
You might you probably haveheard of her if I were to say
her name, uh and she mentionedthat her and her husband went
through pre-engagementcounseling.
That was the first time I heardof it.
I was like, wow, that's, that'sinteresting you know, and I
(21:19):
thought it was kind of likeunorthodox and kind of like
strange at the time because itwas just so unusual.
Yeah, the more I thought aboutI'm like you know, it actually
makes sense.
Like you, if you go to, youknow, go into counseling, real
like pre-marital, pre-maritalcounseling, pre-engagement
counseling, that kind it'sdesigned to, like you said,
(21:40):
discover bad habits, uh, thoughtpatterns, past traumas, all
those things, any of that cancome up.
So like you're really rollingthe dice when you go into
counseling, sometimes Notrolling the dice like we're just
gambling on each other, butwhen you go, there are unknown.
(22:04):
Unknowns when you go intocounseling, especially with
another person, I mean, letalone yourself, but especially
with another person.
And so if to get engaged andthen to do counseling, it seems
like the and I get, I'm just I'msaying this as a single dude
Okay, like I'm not standing injudgment over anyone, cause
(22:25):
someone's gonna be like well,tim, what do you know?
You know, just hear it, I canhear it now.
Like I'm not standing injudgment over anyone, uh, cause
someone's gonna be like well,tim, what do you know?
You know, just hear it, I canhear it now.
Like I listened to your episode.
What do you know about that?
Um, yeah.
I'll just leave it at that.
But yeah, like you're uh, you,like you said, there's a
pressure to get it fixed ifsomething comes up.
(22:46):
Yeah, uh.
So at the very least I wouldsay, if you get engaged and
you're going to do marriagecounseling, maybe do that
marriage count, that premaritalcounseling I keep saying
marriage counseling, that's likeyou know, on into the one, on
into the marriage, butpremarital counseling, at least
maybe do that before you set adate.
(23:07):
Yeah, that's a good idea too.
Yeah, you know, at the very Ithink at the very least do that,
because then there's nopressure like, ah, the wedding's
in six months, I just got mydress fitted.
You know, we gotta get, wegotta fix this trauma issue.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Come on Like you know , and even then, and even then
that's that's the other part ofit too, cause once those things
start coming up or, um, theclients in session now it
becomes so real it's like, oh no, does this mean that we need to
break up?
Right, and everyone fears that,right, especially after you
(23:41):
make that engagement proposal.
Um, so I can see all of thosethings come up as well.
Now, again, I don't know ifthis is going to become popular,
moving forward, where peopleare going to seek the pre
engagement counseling, but I dosee it as a, as a benefit, at
least a couple of sessions justto get a feel for, okay, what
are some things that areunresolved here.
(24:02):
But the other issue that I seeis that there have been many
instances and this goes back,just, it's a generational thing
where you don't talk about yourtraumas, you don't talk about
your past, you don't talk aboutdeep hurts and so on where
people would get married and inthe marriage they would find out
about this horrific past, right, and it starts to cause
(24:24):
problems in the marriage, right,and it starts to cause problems
in the marriage.
So, for example, a very commonone is women who don't share
when they were sexually abusedby a family member or close
friend of the family, right.
So at some point in themarriage could be in the first
year, second year, maybe, firstfive years where the wife starts
responding very defensively orvery guarded when it comes to
(24:49):
sexual behavior, right.
So she starts rememberingthings about her past and the
husband's confused and I'd hit.
You know what's going on?
Did I do something wrong?
So there's this confusion andthen she drops the bomb of well,
when I was five years old, Iwas sexually abused by this
person.
Well, when I was, you know,five years old, I was sexually
abused by this person.
And you know, when you did that, it made me feel this way.
(25:10):
And it's just their bodyresponding, right, it's a
protective measure.
So their body's trying to tellthem, hey, something's wrong,
but it's with someone that theylove.
So now the woman herself shefeels shame because she's making
her husband feel unwanted orashamed for doing what he did
right.
She's making her husband feelunwanted or ashamed for doing
what he did Right.
So it just creates this wholenew dynamic.
All because that didn't come upbefore the marriage, right,
(25:34):
because they're focusing on hey,we get along, we love each
other, we're attracted to eachother all these things and
hopefully that will overcomethese traumatic wounds.
Right?
And what they find out oncethey're married is that oh no,
something woke up in me.
This is not good.
So is there something wrongwith me?
Should I tell my husband?
Should I keep it to myself,like, what do I do here, right?
(25:56):
So then once it really starts toimpact their marriage, then
they say, hey, we need to go tocounseling because we need to
address this right.
So that's usually the lastditch effort that couples have
when they start to experienceall of these different things
and it's affecting theirmarriage very significantly.
So, ok, well, we need to go tocounseling.
But depending on when it isthat they decide to go, you know
(26:19):
there's still hope for it, andI'm just like there's always
hope, you can always work thingsout.
You just got to put in the work.
But for some couples, if they gotoo late, then it's like man,
it's just been years and yearsof this repressed anger and
resentment towards each otherand now it's just falling apart
and it's just one more effort.
(26:39):
Let's go to counseling, seewhat happens, and things just
fall apart even more becausethere's so much more to be
explored.
So I really like that you askedthat question because I think
that is something that movingforward whether it be with our
students or people that I knowis that I would recommend that,
hey, you know, before ifsomeone's getting serious, I say
(27:00):
, hey, man, you know what,before you pop the question, go
to counseling, do four to sixsessions to just assess your
communication patterns.
Talk about finances if you'recomfortable with that.
Already that's a very sensitivetopic.
Sexual past, how thatinfluences as well.
So just to get a feel, and Ithink that'll give them a better
read of okay, we've discussedthis.
(27:22):
I think I still want to moveforward.
Then you can pop the question.
Right, every couple is going tobe hopeful.
I think I still want to moveforward.
Then you can pop the questionright.
Every couple is going to behopeful pre-engagement and even
after the engagement.
They want to make it work.
That's a good thing, but theywould also have to be honest
with themselves.
Is that if there is somethingserious to address, then yeah,
let's work that out, or sadly,they may need to break up, right
(27:43):
, and I think everyone's kind ofscared of that.
So I can see a lot of peopleavoiding it, but I can also see
a smaller group like saying hey,you know what that makes sense,
let's do it.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
It's just a matter of how they'll deal with the fears
afterwards.
Yeah, and for the objection youmentioned it, the objection of
like, oh, this is money.
You know it costs a lot ofmoney for counseling.
This is a mental trick that Iuse on myself for things like
this and maybe it helps otherpeople.
Let's say, for instance, likecounseling, if you look at it as
(28:18):
an investment, you're investingin yourself or you're investing
in your relationship.
It's not a bill, it's aninvestment that actually helps
you.
So let's say, six sessions ofcounseling, ballpark 150 a
session.
Okay, so that's, uh, how muchis that like?
Uh, six 150 dollars, somethinglike that.
(28:38):
Let's just say, oh wait, no, no, sorry, my math is terrible
it's 900 yeah 900, yeah, 900bucks.
Okay, sounds like a lot of money, money upfront for a
relationship where you're notengaged.
But think about it this way howmuch does an engagement ring
cost?
An engagement ring is easilygoing to cost three to four
times that much.
(29:00):
You know easily.
How much does a wedding cost?
Yeah, a lot, yeah, a lot, a lot.
And then and then, sadly, howmuch does marriage counseling
cost on the backend?
And then, how much does divorcecost?
Yeah, you know court fees andall the lawyers and all these
(29:23):
things you know.
So if you look, if you look atit in that light, that this
small little investment of 900bucks for a relationship that
you're really serious about andthat you're thinking about
committing to for the rest ofyour life, if you think about it
in that sense that this, thissmall little investment, can
save you a whole lot of moneydown the road, even at just
(29:46):
avoiding further for theirmarriage counseling and and
divorce, maybe down the road,you know, like, yeah, it can
help you avoid those thingspotentially.
So I would think of it as aninvestment like that, yeah I
like that.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
I think that reminded me of this.
Um, there was a podcast I waslistening to and they said it
should be a lot, a lot harderfor you to get married than to
get divorced, meaning all thework, right, all the work should
be done before marriage.
And if you work so hard for itand you invest all that time
(30:23):
right, it could be money, itcould be time, all of these
different things and then youjust make it the most difficult
process.
And if you're still togetherafter that difficult process,
then that's a really good thing.
I mean, it sets a really goodfoundation for moving forward.
So it makes divorce less likelyto happen because you've gone
through so much together, right.
And there's a big debate aboutthat, because some couples, you
(30:44):
know, they get, they get meeteach other and they propose
within three months and thenthey're married by month six,
month, eight, right.
And most Christians or mostpeople will look at that and say
, wow, that was fast.
But then they have goodmarriages, right.
What's the likelihood of that?
I mean, the average amount oftime that a couple is together
before getting married is abouta year, which is a good amount
(31:05):
of time to get to know anotherperson.
Again, that depends a lot onhow much they're sharing with
each other, right, again, thispre-engagement type of
counseling approach where we'retalking about the issues,
finances, all these differentthings and, yeah, so that's a
good timeline, right, beforeproposing getting to know each
other for a year, veryintentionally talking about the
(31:28):
difficult things past traumas,how you want to look towards the
future and so on.
But what about the couples whoknow each other for three months
, six months?
And we probably have listenerswho have had this experience
where they knew by month fourthat they wanted to get married,
right, so they propose and gotmarried by month A or by the
year, and again, most peoplewould see it and say that's fast
(31:51):
, right, but really what itcomes down to is what are they
covering within the time thatthey're getting to know each
other?
That's really what it comesdown to, because the other
approach is the guy who extendsthat time so this couple has
been dating for one, two, three,four years extends that time.
So this couple has been datingfor one, two, three, four years
(32:11):
and the illusion is that becausewe've spent so much time
together, that gives us a higherchance of not divorcing or a
better chance of having a bettermarriage.
So again, there's a lot ofdebate there, because I have
seen more recently like there'scouples who have been dating for
a very long time and then allof a sudden you just hear that
they break, that they break up,break off the engagement and
you're wondering what happened.
(32:32):
Well, they started going tocounseling and they started
realizing that there was thingsthat they hadn't uncovered yet
and now it just feels like adeception for both, like, well,
I didn't know that we've beendating for four years and things
come up and now that causesthat breakdown and distrust.
So it you know it makes sense,better that you know better to
break up before then thanafterwards as much.
I hate to say it, but it's lesspainful.
(32:53):
It's still painful, but youknow it's not a lifetime thing.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
All right.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
So what else?
What else you got?
Yeah?
So I think the biggest thinghere and we've already covered a
lot of this is just thedifferences between how
counselors do and what pastorsdo.
So I touched on this a littlebit, just the communication
piece that a lot of counselorswill focus on, one of the
(33:20):
approaches that they'll teachand again, you can share with me
how you feel about this, butusing the I feel statements
instead of you always typestatements.
So this is a skill that they'lluse within counseling and say
you know, as soon as you say theword you, you started off wrong
.
Right, there was this, thiscomedian who was talking about
(33:42):
marriage and he was saying thebest advice that I don't know if
it was his father or a pastor,someone told him.
They said don't say the firstthing that comes to mind, just
pause.
And then it's like okay, gotcha.
And he says okay, ready, numbertwo, don't say the second thing
(34:03):
that comes to mind.
He's like okay, good, wait tillthe third, and then remember
just to be very calm.
So basically the idea is, youknow, sometimes we just need to
pause and just listen and justwait to see what happens,
because somebody is just anemotional high for either person
(34:23):
, right?
So pausing, this idea ofpausing before you respond,
giving yourself some time toreally think through, not to get
emotional and so on, and not topoint the finger.
So in counseling you'll see alot of that.
Like I feel you know, alonesometimes when you choose your
friends over me.
And again, for me, coming froma Latino background,
conservative Baptist church,anything that had to do with
(34:45):
feelings was why am I going toshare how I feel?
That doesn't solve anythingLike let's problem solve this,
right.
But the reality is that inrelationships you do have to
provide space for that, becausefeelings are real, we experience
it.
We don't let them dominate us,right, but we do acknowledge
that they're there.
I do feel, um, disrespectedwhen, when you take your parents
(35:10):
advice over mine, or somethinglike that.
Or I feel, um, unwanted whenyou're not affectionate, right,
little things like that.
So that doesn't.
That doesn't create thisjudgment on the other person.
Like you never give meaffection, it's very different
than I feel rejected when youdon't show affection, right?
So, again, just these littlesmall communication tips that
(35:34):
they have.
Another thing that they'll do issomething called the conflict
GPS, right.
They'll role play a couple ofarguments right?
What if one of us wants kidsand the other doesn't?
Right?
They'll role play a couple ofarguments, right?
What if one of us wants kidsand the other doesn't?
Right?
So there's a lot of focus hereon what are your core values?
Right?
And we know that in today'sculture there is this struggle
(35:55):
with comparison.
Right, we compare ourselves,our relationships are who we are
as individuals, with otherpeople, you know, due to social
media and so on, and we thinkthat people are actually living
a life that they're actually not, and there's a lot of
comparison with that.
That to say, when it comes tovalues like wanting kids or not
wanting kids, like that'ssomething that you both should
(36:17):
agree on because that's a bigpart of the future, right?
Most people who get married endup having kids.
Now, again, there's this trendwhere some couples are getting
married and they just don't wantto have kids and they just want
to kind of live this as asingle couple type of life.
But I think for most Christians, there is the desire for kids.
So if you can't agree on that,there's this belief that, well,
(36:41):
we'll make it work some way.
Maybe he'll change his mind,maybe she'll change her mind,
and you really can't do that.
A lot of counselors willemphasize don't work on what
could change, work on where theyare now, and I think that's
such an important principle.
You got to focus on what youhave in front of you, not the
potential of what it can be.
(37:01):
Money talks, creating budgets,discussing debt, planning for
financial curveballs They'llbring that up in session.
How would you deal, or whatwould you do if one of you loses
their job?
Right, very interestingregarding that, women are more
likely to leave a marriage if ahusband were to lose his job.
(37:24):
Men are more likely to leave amarriage if a husband were to
lose his job.
Men are more likely to leavetheir wives if they get sick and
the wives would stay.
It's very interesting, thosetwo specific ones If who gets
sick?
So for if the husband gets sick, wives are more likely to stay.
If the wife gets sick, husbandsare more likely to leave
because they lose, whether it bethe physical connection or the
(37:46):
emotional connection.
Whatever it is, they go andseek that out elsewhere.
When it comes to finances, ifthe wife loses her job,
obviously, men usually being theprimary providers, they stay,
but if the husband were to losehis job, wives often leave those
relationships as well.
It's a higher percentage.
So it's very interesting whenyou look at all these different
(38:08):
things.
So when it comes up inpremarital counseling, you talk
about that.
So what would happen, or whatwould you do, if one of you guys
loses your job and you let themhave that conversation?
Right, Okay, what would we do?
Right, what do we do if, withthis, that you know you have
more debt than I do?
How do we want to resolve that?
So you get them to have thosereally tough conversations and
(38:29):
you're able to examine a lot oftheir communication style.
Ok, last one here, justintimacy builders exercises to
deepen emotional and physicalconnection, connection.
Very often, once people getmarried, where you start to see
(38:49):
the data shows that once peoplehave their first child,
relationship satisfaction startsto go down.
So, first child, you knowthey're, they're happy.
First child, they have thefirst child and then
relationship satisfaction startsto go down and then, once they
hit about teenage years, then itstarts to go back up again
Because again, children are moreindependent, they don't need as
much from the parents anymoreand the couple can then focus on
(39:11):
themselves and plan for thefuture and so on.
So there's those expectationsright, what do you do?
What if you have a sick child?
What do you get a child with adisability?
Right?
How is it going to change yourdynamic?
And all these communicationpatterns and intimacy builders,
these check-ins they're smallinvestments, to your point.
They're small investments thathave huge returns if you do it
(39:34):
right.
A 10 to 15 minute check-in iskind of a good way to not start
your day, but how you would endyour day when you get home from
work.
So, hey, how was your day?
You're just checking in.
Hey, let's have someface-to-face time.
Then you have dinner and so on.
So those check-ins are veryimportant but people don't see
(39:54):
them as, oh, that can make ahuge difference.
It does, it really does.
The research shows just thoselittle bids for connection.
They call them Bids forconnection.
They call them bids forconnection.
I'm just looking for you to seeme, even if it's for 10, 15
minutes face-to-face interaction.
So a lot of different things.
Hopefully, maybe in the futurewe can do an episode on maybe
(40:14):
some of these, these models anddifferent approaches to marital
counseling.
But yeah, for now, do you haveany other any other questions
about the process or how it maybe different from pastoral?
Speaker 2 (40:26):
counseling.
I mean, I was gonna ask, likefor those who haven't been
through premarital counseling,what to expect, but I think you,
I think you pretty much coveredit, like some of the topics
that would be covered.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
Yeah, and let me give , I guess, one last thing here,
just kind of where they mayoverlap, just kind of whether it
be religious or secular,premarital counseling works best
when couples go in beforeproblems arise.
So it's preventative, right.
So sometimes couples think that, oh, we have a communication
issue, let's go to premaritalcounseling so we can address
(40:58):
that.
But let's say you don't haveany issue.
Let's say, for the most part,you're pretty healthy
individuals and you get alongwell, you have a supportive
family, you go to a great church, you're growing in your faith,
all of these things, all ofthose things are good, right,
right.
So don't necessarily see it as,oh, we need to go only if we
have problems.
You could see it as apreventative measure or, as you
(41:29):
put it, tim, as an investment.
Right, it's just an addedinvestment of, hey, you know
what, we have some good skills,we get along well, but let's go
to see what else we can add toour tool belt.
That way, when you have adifferent problem arise, hey,
we're going through premaritalcounseling, we have these other
(41:50):
tools that we can use, right, sothat that's one part.
They won't practice.
The tools that you learn, andone big one that's often
communicated is active listening, can am I hearing you correctly
?
You repeat what you hear fromyour partner and they confirm
yes, that's what I meant.
Okay, and now you have actuallyclear communication.
And we don't do that, right inrelationships.
Often each person wants to getacross their point and they're
just missing each other, right,completely missing each other.
(42:11):
So in counseling what we wouldteach is hey, when you hear your
partner say this, you check inand say, okay, I heard you say
this, did I get that right?
Say, no, you completely missedit.
Okay, tell me, tell me again.
I'm not sure where I missed you.
So, again, it creates thatexpectation that you're trying
to understand each other.
And lastly, just the aspect oftackling difficult topics.
(42:34):
Right, sex, money, kids thoseare difficult topics to talk
about on your own, sometimeslike who brings it up?
Right, we would say well, theman needs to bring up those
conversations.
But if there's trauma there, hemay not want to, right, he may
not want to touch on thosetopics or it may bring up
something sensitive for him inthe relationship.
(42:55):
It may make him feel vulnerable.
So when you have someone as anoutside observer who's going to
jump into that, they can bringit up with you know, with a lot
of openness.
One professor told me.
He said if you, as a counselor,don't touch on these difficult
topics, they're not going totouch on it right, because
(43:16):
you're the one who has theability to, to explore those
with them and they they're goingto feel a sense of confidence
because they're being guidedthrough the process, right.
So for those of us who arecounseling, it's I got to go
there, even though I know it'sgoing to be uncomfortable.
You put them in that situationand that's going to show you how
they're actually communicatingand how they resolve issues and
(43:37):
so on.
So all that to say, if you arein this space, if you have been
in a relationship, I think oneof the ideas that we've proposed
is this pre-engagementcounseling.
I would encourage that.
Maybe four to six sessions, Ithink that's pretty good, where
it gives you a good amount toconsider and practice before
(43:58):
making a decision.
But again, this is the aspectwhere you're going to look at
all these different things andmake the decision that works out
best for you guys.
But I would highly highlyencourage it.
Well, that's a great talk.
Speaker 2 (44:11):
Yeah, thank you man.
Yeah, hopefully you guysenjoyed that.
Speaker 1 (44:15):
Yeah, we will come back with another big topic
similar to or related torelationships, prenuptial
agreements.
I'm looking forward to that one, tim, all right, all right,
guys, we'll see you next time.
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