August 5, 2025 • 43 mins
Why does happiness feel so elusive for so many of us? Maybe you’ve had the experience where you long for a change, believing that once this change occurs then you’ll finally be happy. Then that change happens, but it didn’t deliver lasting happiness. You buy the new thing, take the vacation, achieve the goal, get the promotion and you feel happy for a while but eventually it feels like you’re back where you started.
In today’s episode of the Psychedelic Therapy Frontiers podcast, we explore the phenomenon knows as the “hedonic treadmill”--the tendency for people to quickly return to a relatively stable level of happiness despite major positive or negative events or life changes. We discuss examples of this in action, possible evolutionary explanations for this tendency, the role of dopamine, how it relates to habit formation and addiction, exceptions to this tendency, ways to get off the treadmill, and much more.
For those of you who are new to the show, welcome! Psychedelic Therapy Frontiers is brought to you by Numinus Network and is hosted by Dr. Steve Thayer and Dr. Reid Robison.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_03 (00:00):
Why does happiness feel so elusive for so many of
us?
Maybe you've had the experiencewhere you long for a change,
believing that once this changeoccurs, then you'll finally be
happy.
Then that change happens, but itdidn't deliver lasting
happiness.
You buy the new thing, you takethe vacation, achieve the goal,
(00:21):
get the promotion, and you feelhappy for a while, but
eventually it feels like you'reback where you started.
In today's episode of thePsychedelic Therapy Frontiers
podcast, we explore thephenomenon known as the hedonic
treadmill or hedonic adaptation.
This tendency for people toquickly return to a relatively
stable level of happinessdespite major positive or even
negative events or life changes.
(00:42):
We discuss examples of this inaction, possible evolutionary
explanations for this tendency,the role of dopamine, how it
relates to habit formation andaddiction, exceptions to this
tendency, ways to get off thetreadmill, and much more.
For those of you who are new theshow notes or go directly to
(01:27):
numinousnetwork.com forwardslash training.
And you can use the code PTF10for that 10% discount.
If you've listened to the showfor a while, you've likely heard
Reed and me talk about thepsychedelic clinical trial work
that Numinous Network does herein Utah.
If you live in Utah and you'reinterested in being a
participant in psychedelicclinical trials, you can click
(01:47):
on the link in the show notes orgo directly to
numinousnetwork.com forwardslash research, where you can
learn about the trials we'recurrently running.
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You can leave a rating or reviewin places like Apple Podcasts
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If you're watching on YouTube,you can like the video,
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share the episode with someoneyou think might enjoy it.
(02:08):
Without further delay, here'stoday's episode on the hedonic
treadmill.
SPEAKER_00 (02:15):
Hello.
Hello,
SPEAKER_03 (02:16):
Reid.
SPEAKER_00 (02:16):
How's it going, Steve?
Good.
SPEAKER_03 (02:18):
Good.
SPEAKER_00 (02:20):
Very
SPEAKER_03 (02:20):
good.
Sure.
Medium.
Medium good.
Good.
You know, maybe I'm at myhappiness set point.
We're going to talk today alittle bit about something
called hedonic adaptation orsometimes referred to as the
hedonic treadmill.
And it'll be a tangential,wide-ranging conversation, as is
our...
tendency
SPEAKER_00 (02:38):
but why the treadmill part of it well let's
define it first but i i thinkit's an interesting visual
SPEAKER_03 (02:45):
yeah yeah this this notion that uh regardless of
whether or not something reallygood happens in our lives or
really tragic or bad happens inour lives that most of us and
these are all you know averageshere but we have a tendency to
return to a kind of happinessset point um so it's a the
metaphor of the treadmill ithink was popularized back in
(03:06):
the 70s by brickman and campbellis what i dredged up from the
internet but um using themetaphor of the treadmill
because the treadmill is likeyou're in motion but you're not
really going anywhere you'restaying in the same place not
getting happier or moremiserable yeah
SPEAKER_00 (03:20):
yeah because if we adapt to pleasure there's a risk
of seeking that hit over andover uh and we are wired that
way i think You and I weretalking a bit earlier and you
mentioned the old adage, we'rewired for survival, not
happiness.
And so there's a risk of seekingthat hit over and over and
(03:43):
getting less out of it andseeking it more.
And you hear that from peoplewhen they describe substances of
like they might be.
just doing it to do it wherethey don't feel the same high as
they got.
And that happens.
I think you can apply that tobehaviors and substances.
SPEAKER_03 (03:58):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sometimes referred to as chasingthe dragon, right?
Like you have that, that, thatreally intense high and you're
not able to recreate it.
And maybe in the case ofsubstances, you're using
substances at increasingfrequency or higher doses,
trying to get that experience.
SPEAKER_00 (04:14):
And like you mentioned, we adapt to pleasure
and, just as we adapt to pain.
And so we might be seeking moreand more of that pleasure, we
return to a baseline level ofsatisfaction.
So the treadmill is this endlesspursuit of more.
And it has its underpinnings inthe reward cycle and dopamine,
(04:37):
which is commonly called themolecule of more.
SPEAKER_03 (04:40):
Yeah.
So we'll probably talk a bitabout dopamine.
There's a study that many of youmight have heard of.
It's kind of popular when peopletalk about this phenomenon.
Back in the 70s, I think 1978,Brickman, Coates, and Buhlman.
The lottery study?
The lottery study, yeah.
Lottery winners and paraplegics.
So people who sustained aninjury.
From a serious accident.
(05:01):
So a change in their lifebecause of an accident.
And they found that for the mostpart, lottery winners after,
what did you say, it was like ayear?
year or some period of time,they're not really that much
happier than the control group.
But that the paraplegic folksalso weren't much more miserable
after a certain amount of timehad passed than the control
group.
(05:22):
And certainly there wereoutliers, exceptions to those
rules, but those were on averagethis interesting phenomenon.
SPEAKER_00 (05:26):
Yeah, both groups returned to their baseline
within like less than a year, itseems.
SPEAKER_03 (05:32):
Which begs the question, what's going on here?
SPEAKER_00 (05:35):
Why didn't lottery winning make you happy forever?
Yeah,
SPEAKER_03 (05:38):
I mean, I have this sort of intuitive sense that if
I won the lottery, I think I'dbe a bit happier on a consistent
We'll talk about moneyspecifically too here in a
minute.
SPEAKER_00 (05:46):
Is your intuition sometimes wrong?
SPEAKER_03 (05:48):
It is often wrong, yeah.
So there's some theories aboutthis.
There's this idea of perhaps weeach have a genetic set point
for happiness and that maybethat accounts for like 50% of
how happy or miserable we getand where that set point is.
And that life circumstances,your income, your health, your
relationship status mightaccount for something like 10%
(06:09):
of your happiness.
And then intentional activitieslike...
gratitude, kindness, purpose,focusing on goals, might account
for more, more like 40%.
And so again, these are juststatistics, somewhat theoretical
from one particular study, but
SPEAKER_00 (06:26):
food for thought.
Yeah, and you...
Combine it and furthercomplicate it by this phenomenon
of in the cycle of maladaptivebehavior, habit loops, addictive
cycles, if you will, you notonly start to get less pleasure
from the things you mightnormally enjoy, but you might
even be hypersensitive tocertain pain or more annoyed by
(06:49):
things that don't as readilyannoy you, which impacts your
set point.
Like you could be moredisgruntled at baseline or, you
know, you know, discontentperhaps.
And on top of that, geneticcards that maybe dealt us where
we have a set point to beginwith.
SPEAKER_03 (07:08):
Right.
Yeah.
I think there's a lot of nuance,a lot of factors to consider.
And you mentioned dopamine.
Do you want to do a little bitof a deep dive on dopamine, how
it might affect this?
SPEAKER_00 (07:21):
yeah yeah maybe a
SPEAKER_03 (07:23):
shallow dive
SPEAKER_00 (07:24):
but well how about a couple interesting studies to
start uh one i've found um kindof funny is it's like a harvard
2012 study that showed thattalking about yourself activated
um the nucleus accumbens thepart of the brain that is like
key in this dopamine rewardcircuitry activated it more than
(07:48):
receiving money and so um Andthen there was this UCLA study
combined with this one ofadolescents that showed that
more likes in social media ledto more nucleus accumbens
activation.
And I find it intriguing.
You combine it with social mediadepression studies.
(08:10):
and a linear correlation betweentime scrolling and actually
feeling worse.
And you start to see maybe someof this cycle at play in seeking
that spike of dopamine more andmore and getting less and less
out of it and really might betaken away from other areas of
life.
SPEAKER_03 (08:29):
Yeah, it's bizarre when I think about it.
Like we talked about this beingwired for survival, not
happiness.
And it's an oversimplificationto attribute it all to dopamine,
but dopamine is this sort ofmolecule of more, of pursuit.
So it makes sense why thattendency would help us survive,
not be too satisfied, because wegot to make sure that we're out
(08:50):
there collecting food andprotecting ourselves and
obtaining partners andpropagating our genes, that kind
of thing.
SPEAKER_00 (08:57):
Yeah, and that's why dopamine exists for the
propagation of species like toexpand on that survival idea
it's not the molecule of lastinghappiness right it's it exists
to it was evolutionarily kind ofthere for our survival in the
sense of seeking food so youdon't die, so you have fuel, and
(09:19):
seeking sex so you reproduce andyour genes don't die.
SPEAKER_03 (09:22):
Yeah.
Maybe the molecule of malcontenthelps us feel not satisfied with
what we have and where we're at.
More.
Your point earlier about howwhen we really sort of press
that dopamine button over andover and over again through like
a drug that really spikesdopamine or an activity that
spikes dopamine, we landourselves in a trough afterward,
(09:46):
which is part of why it doesn'tlead to the sort of this lasting
bliss that maybe we hope itwill.
SPEAKER_00 (09:50):
What I find uncanny is that we're talking about all
this neuroscience and these 2016UCLA studies and things, but
it's stuff that the Buddhistshave described so well for a
couple thousand years, right?
Like there's this idea inBuddhism called dependent
(10:11):
origination and there's a termfor a patika samupada where it
talks about the trigger or thecue brings up a feeling maybe a
craving and attached to cravingscan be clinging you don't want
to let go of something thatyou're craving that feels good
and then the clinging leads tokind of becoming or like
(10:37):
experiencing but then there'sthis suffering as it's gone
because of impermanence and thecycle just repeats and can in a
treadmill phenomenon you're onit and running through it but um
and then they've had this ideathat's also supported by the
mindfulness therapies we useevery day of awareness is the
greatest um tool forinterrupting the cycle yeah
SPEAKER_03 (11:01):
awareness paired with acceptance right i mean
part of that buddhist wisdom isour attachment to, in our
aversions to things, what wewant and don't want lead to
suffering.
So there's this dukkhaattachment and these cycles of,
what do they call them, samsaracycles or something like that.
It also makes me think of otherancient wisdom traditions like,
(11:24):
well, Aristotle.
Aristotle talking about thedifference between hedonia and
eudaimonia.
Eudaimonia meaning this morevalues-centric thing if you can
call it that, of things thatcontribute to maybe more lasting
life satisfaction than thetemporary hedonic spikes.
And this would be, you know,focus on purpose, focus on sort
(11:45):
of altruism and connect yourlife's work to being connected
to something that really mattersto you that's bigger than you.
SPEAKER_00 (11:52):
It's, uh, Socrates said something like happiness is
not about getting more.
It's about wanting less.
SPEAKER_03 (12:01):
You know what that makes me think of?
So the world happiness reportswhere they survey all these
different countries.
Um, and Finland is just, youknow, consistently freaking
Finland.
I heard, uh, I was listening toMark Manson's recent podcast.
He was talking about, he's theguy that wrote subtle art of not
giving a fuck.
And he's got this cool newpodcast where he does deep dives
on these things and he He wassaying he talked to some of his
(12:24):
Finnish friends about how theyfeel about that report.
And they're like, we're not anyhappier than anybody else.
Our expectations are lower.
There's a culture.
SPEAKER_00 (12:33):
It's cold outside.
It's
SPEAKER_03 (12:35):
that.
I mean, he said, and I don'tknow any Finns, but he said like
there's a culture in Finland ofjust not setting yourself up too
much for disappointment.
Like not striving too much.
Don't expect too much out oflife.
SPEAKER_00 (12:45):
There's also this Finnish saying, I think, because
it's on the wall at the ColdPlunge studio down the road
called Plunge P.
Where there's this term that Iforget the term, I forget the
definition, but it's aboutseeking discomfort.
And it's found in a lot of likeWim Hof circles.
But I think that that is areally interesting reminder of
(13:10):
that.
the more we shy away fromdiscomfort and avoid it might be
perpetuating suffering.
SPEAKER_03 (13:18):
Yeah.
It could be one of our takeawaysfrom today of like how to step
off the hedonic treadmill.
We've certainly talked a lotabout the connection between
experiential avoidance andmental health conditions and
suffering and talked aboutseeking discomfort.
And so perhaps it's a way, likeit's fairly anti-hedonic if
hedonism is just maximizingpleasure and avoiding pain.
(13:40):
You're seeking discomfort,putting yourself in a temporary
state of discomfort, but inservice of more adaptive
happiness, perhaps.
SPEAKER_00 (13:50):
Yeah, I agree with the key takeaway there because
it makes sense.
You cannot be in this blissfulpart of the cycle all the time.
It just doesn't work that way.
And we are at risk of seekingthat or just wanting the
comfortable, cozy, pleasant,happy life.
feelings all the time.
(14:10):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (14:11):
Yeah.
And seeking discomfort can looklike a lot of different things.
You know, it could be one ofthose things for privileged
people where they don't have alot of distress in their life
and they get bored.
Um, maybe they gotta go to trysomething hard or seek
discomfort, or it could besomebody who's heavily
traumatized, has experienced alot of suffering in their life
and the discomfort, um, theiravoidance of a particular kind
(14:32):
of discomfort is keeping them intheir suffering.
Meaning if I were to go in anddo MDMA-assisted therapy and
with the help of the MDMA reallyface some of these intrinsic
stories that keep me suffering,it's going to be really hard.
It's going to involve somediscomfort, but there might be
healing on the other side
SPEAKER_00 (14:48):
of it.
Yeah, the only way out isthrough.
And you've got to feel it toheal it and all that other good
stuff.
Cliche, but it plays out in reallife.
We've seen it over and over.
And what I love about Like whatwe do as a profession is that we
get to examine it in our ownlives and everything around us
(15:13):
all the time.
You know, it, uh, it's, it'sinteresting to watch these
things play out in life and, uh,it kind of brings up this other
idea I wanted to throw into themix of, of, uh, addiction and
habit loops like the hedonistictreadmill has some parallels to
addiction if not the other sideof the coin of addiction or how
(15:38):
addiction uh is born but whatmatters a lot that we don't
always remember is what's goingon in your life not just your
own genetic makeup and your umyou know it may not matter uh...
last year you might have been ina different place where a
substance or behavior wasn't asticky but in the absence of
(16:01):
certain supports and kind of Andif your mental state is
different, not as kind ofresilient or more prone and
wired to suffering, you might beway more likely to get sucked in
or stuck in a cycle.
And we've seen that play outlike in the famous Vietnam
study, for example.
What was that one?
(16:21):
It was Vietnam...
kind of people who went tocombat in Vietnam who got
addicted to heroin.
It was studied in kind of acareful way of...
how they weren't able to breakthat addiction until they were
back home, uh, surrounded bysome of their supports and they
just could not do it in the,when they were in that, uh,
(16:45):
chaos.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (16:46):
Well, and for the people who came home without
that kind of social support, itwas more difficult for them to
kick the addiction.
It also makes me think, is itJohan Hari who wrote, um, lost
connections?
SPEAKER_02 (16:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (16:56):
Yeah.
And this might just be sort of amemified popularized take on
this study.
I haven't looked at it supercarefully, but he's, he cites
the rat park studies.
Yeah.
Yeah, 1980s.
So you have these rats that theyput in isolation, a stressful
environment, got them addictedto a substance.
Morphine-laced water.
There you go.
And they kept going back to thatwater and over and over again.
(17:18):
Until overdose, like deathsometimes.
Yeah, morphing themselves todeath.
And then you had the rats thatwere put in a so-called rat park
where they had things to do.
Other rats to play with.
Partners to have sex with andplay with and all that great
stuff.
And they weren't as likely to goback to the morphine-laced
water.
SPEAKER_00 (17:33):
Other sources of dopamine and perhaps more
lasting ones.
ones.
I think one other takeaway is,you know, you've talked about
the different types of fuel weburn here and, um, the different
spikes of dopamine.
Um, like there are plenty ofstudies to show how experiences
can have more of a lastingbenefit on your wellbeing than
(17:56):
kind of material acquisitionsand things like that.
But, uh, you know, they did havethese other sources of dopamine
than the morphine, like friendsand play.
And it made all the difference.
Like environment and socialconnection strongly influence
whether or not an addictionturns into some lasting
(18:19):
compulsive behavior or like anaddictive behavior or substance.
SPEAKER_03 (18:23):
Yeah, I think this is worth hovering on for a while
because sometimes in this sortof addiction treatment space, we
have a saying, don't ask why theaddiction, ask why the pain.
SPEAKER_02 (18:32):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (18:34):
What are they trying to address by this addiction?
So to our point about what wetalked about just now, if you
have a life that you don't feellike you need to escape from too
much...
then you aren't as likely, youstill could, but you aren't as
likely to fall into these reallyself-destructive dopaminergic
(18:54):
habits,
SPEAKER_00 (18:55):
right?
I think it was in that LostConnections book, actually, that
a really interesting sectionwhere Johan writes about some
country in Europe, maybe it wasFinland, I don't think it was,
like Denmark or something likethat, where they set up these
controversial...
outposts for letting people doheroin in a safe way with a
nurse there before work andwhere you were in the presence
(19:19):
of a supportive other and therewere some ground rules you're
not going to die from overdoseor whatever but what was
fascinating is just thedifferent rates of addiction or
the ability of people abilitypeople had for that to like fall
off and not become as compulsivewith certain supports in place
was really striking.
(19:41):
And so there was another one.
Oh, just a fun fact, perhaps, isyou know how we talk about
self-medicating?
It's a popular term in mentalhealth and pop culture, I guess.
But it comes from thisresearcher.
What's his name?
Kantzian.
In the late 90s, he publishedthis theory, this
(20:06):
self-medication hypothesis,saying that people with
unresolved emotional pain,trauma, or mental illness are
more likely to use certainsubstances and behaviors as
coping tools, like you weretalking about with why the pain.
And the addictive behavior isn'tjust pleasurable, it's serving
another function of...
(20:29):
like it could be a lot ofdifferent things like numbing,
shame, escaping loneliness,calming anxiety.
Like it's not, you're notseeking it necessarily just for
a little bit of pleasure.
You're escaping.
It's
SPEAKER_03 (20:40):
an escape.
Yeah.
You're treating something.
You're trying to numb or getaway from something.
SPEAKER_00 (20:44):
And in the ketamine world, we've ketamine is an
interesting one because it'smaybe not the most highly
addictive substance, but you seethese gnarly cases of addiction.
And, um, Like, we've seen someindividuals, whether they're
kind of patients orprofessionals or whatever, who
(21:06):
have slipped down this slopeinto a scary rabbit hole of
ketamine misuse, abuse, and evendependence.
And I think that's an example ofescapism, like, Because it's
hard for many people to grasp ifthey've experienced ketamine
once or twice in a clinic andmaybe threw up, or it was a
(21:27):
weird experience.
Why would you seek that out?
But there's a lot more at playfor many people.
SPEAKER_03 (21:33):
Yeah, I've wondered at what's at play for people who
do develop an unhealthyrelationship to ketamine.
Because like you point out, it'snot like cocaine.
I mean, if we line up 10 peopleand give them cocaine...
Dopamine.
Nine out of 10 are going to havea great time, right?
Depending on the dose.
It's pretty reliably euphoric,right?
But ketamine isn't like that.
It's more dissociative, right?
Like you said, it can makepeople nauseated, confused.
SPEAKER_00 (21:56):
It's an altered state than your here and now.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_03 (21:59):
yeah.
But if you can just think aboutit for a minute, I mean,
somebody for whom their here andnow really sucks and there's a
lot of pain, if they candissociate, disconnect, go into
the so-called K-hole, disconnectfrom their body, you can imagine
why that might be tempting
SPEAKER_00 (22:15):
to go back to.
And I think you could look atcertain behaviors like self-harm
cutting, for example, in asimilar way.
And I've had many...
Many individuals describe thisto me when they have awareness
of it, is that I have theseurges to self-harm and I'm
(22:35):
pretty convinced now that it isto distract from the pain, to
feel something other than theemotional pain, trauma, shame,
by something that is morepredictable, concrete, that I
can control.
And it's not an adaptivebehavior, right?
It can be a scary behavior.
It is.
But I think it's another exampleof this stuff at play.
SPEAKER_03 (22:56):
Mm hmm.
So this makes me wonder, youknow, if you're ready to move to
this topic, what are somethings, other things to help us
get off the hedonic treadmilland what might be ways we can
focus on this more durable senseof wellbeing rather than chasing
these spikes of happiness?
So one of the first things thatcomes to my mind, I mentioned
earlier, I wanted to talk aboutmoney a little bit.
(23:19):
So you talked a bit about thesort of material pursuits.
So, and most people, this isconventional wisdom at this
point that we'll understand thatit's, if the pursuit of money as
an engine of itself, orcertainly as a way to sort of
signal status or whatever it is,places you squarely on the
hedonic treadmill.
And most people have had theexperience of really, really
(23:41):
looking forward to and buying athing, buying that thing, having
fun with it for a while, andthen returning to their own
baseline.
But that is not to imply thatthe accumulation of money is
fruitless and doesn't contributeto lasting happiness.
If you're in poverty and youhave some serious money concerns
And the social science researchbears this out.
Making more money does make youhappier.
(24:02):
To a point.
To a point.
So the Kahneman study said thiswas decades ago.
So this number is different now.
But like around after about 70grand a year for the average
person, you get thesediminishing returns.
Yeah.
Certainly it's a lot higher thanthat these days.
And some more updated researchsuggests that you actually do
experience little sort ofupticks in happiness the more
(24:23):
money you make.
But it, especially if what youdo with that money is solving
the terrible money problems,like getting good healthcare and
getting good housing and allthose things.
But if you're using money topurchase experiences, you know,
going on trips with friends,being able to connect with
others, or if you're using moneyfor philanthropic purposes, or
(24:46):
maybe investing in a businessthat you really care about, as
opposed to just buying materialthings.
SPEAKER_00 (24:52):
Yeah.
I think it's like we weretalking about with suffering
side of the coin of findingmeaning in it.
You could seek discomfort bythis meaningful pursuit and know
you're going to go through it.
I've seen it play out both ways.
People who end up with a lot ofmoney, there's a fork in the
(25:16):
road of adding to theirwell-being or detracting from it
even.
And I think what matters is Thethings you mentioned, the
meaning around it and what it isenergetically, if you will, in
your life.
Is it something you're seekingon a hedonistic treadmill for
more and more and burning onthings more and more, chasing
(25:41):
those spikes?
Or is it something in thatcategory of more lasting things?
you know, meaningful pursuits inaccordance with your true values
if you go deep and find them.
SPEAKER_03 (25:53):
Yeah, yeah.
It makes me think of a book.
I forget the title, but I thinkit was written by a guy named
Andrew Wilkinson.
where he eventually achieved thestatus of billionaire to
discover that he was miserable.
SPEAKER_01 (26:06):
And
SPEAKER_03 (26:07):
he gives insight in that book that I think, again,
is probably also almost commonknowledge now.
But for some people, the pursuitof wealth is driven by a deeply
rooted insecurity, like notfeeling enough.
And so it's a proxy for theirworth if they can make a lot of
money.
But however high you climb onthat ladder, there's usually
(26:28):
people above you, right?
The guy that makes$1 billion,what about the guy that's
selling$3 billion?
I've got a yacht, but he's got asuper yacht.
And I get it, especially today'sday and age, it's hard to have
compassion for billionaires.
I'll admit.
But they are people too.
But I bring it up just to sortof elaborate on your point that
sometimes what drives,particularly, we're using the
example of money, but sometimeswhat drives that is a wound.
(26:53):
And it's a wound that we'reusing a medicine, in this case
money, that isn't well suited totreat.
SPEAKER_00 (26:59):
Yeah, I think it was Tim Ferriss on Vulnerable
podcast called it a traumaresponse in him and in many of
the entrepreneurs he's workedwith, like the pursuit of
startups more and more grinding.
And yeah, it's reallyfascinating.
(27:22):
That could be a substance or abehavior for sure.
UNKNOWN (27:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (27:25):
Yeah, show me an exhausted, unfulfilled
entrepreneur and I'll show yousomebody whose dad didn't love
him.
Like it's almost a cliche atthis point.
SPEAKER_00 (27:34):
What I've found interesting too, because I've
been kind of re-immersed in thegolf world a little bit this
summer and the number one golferin the world right now, Scotty
Scheffler, made some waves inthe news headlines when he had a
vulnerable open interview totalking about how winning is not
(27:57):
fulfilling.
Or he's like, sometimes hewonders, what is the point of
this?
Like, so I win another majorchampionship, then what?
And then he went on to talkabout how, like, what his values
are is he wants to be a goodfather more than a good golfer.
And he said, like, the minute...
one kind of eats into the next,like he's gonna ditch golf.
(28:19):
And it's interesting, Tom Brady,I think just this week in his
newsletter, responded to thatand said, dude, they don't need
to be mutually exclusive.
Like you could see how these aredebatable points, but I, I quite
liked what, um, Scotty Schefflerwas saying about, about when I
found it refreshing and kind ofraw and, uh, they're coming out
(28:40):
in imperfect words as, as adude, who's not pretending to
have the answers here.
Yeah.
But, uh, I thought it, I, it washeartwarming.
SPEAKER_03 (28:49):
I think you see it, um, that people arriving at that
insight who have tirelessly andwith extreme focus pursued one
particular path of excellence.
Same might be said of TigerWoods, Michael Jordan, like
other athletes, right?
And where they suddenly realizethat they have been on a
treadmill and anotherchampionship isn't going to
(29:09):
grant them the lasting happinessand adoration that part of them
really wanted.
And so they often slow down andlook around and see these other
things that a lot of us feelmore lasting happiness
connecting to likerelationships, parenthood,
SPEAKER_00 (29:22):
things that give us purpose.
We've seen it a lot in mentalhealth clubs clinic work where
people have had their identityso attached and rooted in
something like their life as anathlete, an accomplished
athlete, for example, and thenan injury comes along and their
(29:42):
mental health takes a massivehit.
Like it's almost a dark night ofthe soul crisis of like, what am
I?
Who am I now?
And it's something to keep inmind as we're going about our
pursuits in life and thinkingabout the sustainability of our
(30:05):
well-being.
I
SPEAKER_03 (30:06):
mean, you mentioned how important awareness is in
this process.
And so perhaps what cansometimes keep us on the hedonic
treadmill is a less than idealconcept of who we are, like you
said, what we are.
What brings us and gives usvalue?
Is it extrinsic or intrinsic?
(30:27):
And maybe going way back to thisidea of a genetic set point,
there's a temperamental aspectto this too.
For some people, it's justeasier because of their
particular temperament they cameinto the world with to be more
intrinsically motivated, to notneed external validation as much
as others.
But those are all factors inthis equation.
SPEAKER_00 (30:47):
Yeah.
And so on that note, like to getback to your question of what do
we do about it?
And practically speaking, how doyou use awareness in
interrupting these loops, forexample?
And, um, and one thing that Ilike to remember is yes,
awareness interruptsautomaticity, if you will.
(31:11):
But, um, how do you do that?
Sometimes it's by just allowingcuriosity, like as I like to
think curiosity instead ofcraving and like slowing it
down, I think is, um, akin toawareness in this.
Like I'm thinking about clientsI work with, with say binge
(31:32):
eating disorder, for example, ofthere is a, it's, it's, uh,
there's a, a trigger out therein the world that brings up
this, uh, desire to engage inthat.
And often it's happening onautopilot.
But if you can kind of have thatawareness on board, and
especially as it's going, sit inthat for even just five minutes,
(31:56):
or find some way to be withthat, then you may have just
diverted not just that cycle,but you do that enough times and
you've interrupted the the loop,the habit.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (32:09):
Yeah.
I think curiosity is animportant component of
equanimity of just sort of beingable to sit in the eye of the
storm and not run one way or theother.
Yeah.
I like, I like your distinction,um, with whether, with sort of
chasing something and craving,it makes me think of, um,
savoring right that there arecomponents to stepping off the
(32:32):
hedonic treadmill that are verymuch tied to mindfulness like
you're saying and i thinksavoring is one of them savoring
different from maybe necessarilygratitude just like really fully
being present with what's thereand allowing yourself to feel
the full lingering joy of thatthing
SPEAKER_00 (32:47):
i have a curiosity that is just distracting thought
that's making me chuckle of, youknow, the, uh, the, um, there's
some studies showing how mindfulawareness can reduce cigarette
smoking five X or whatever.
Like, um, but, uh, Have therebeen any studies savoring
cigarette use, like savoring acigarette?
(33:10):
If you're a user of cigarettes,because it is an automatic
thing, like smoke breaks and allthat, or if they look at chain
smokers, just one to the next.
And I also find itinteresting...
to look at in terms of, like, wehave these addiction scales.
Like, say we're doing a smokingcessation study or measuring it
(33:33):
in some study.
One of the questions might be,how many minutes or hours from
when you first wake up until youengage in the first thing,
cigarette or behavior orwhatever, as one of the many
markers of, like, worseningaddiction or taking an inventory
on it?
And those are the kind of thingsyou can...
you can channel your awarenessaround of just watching with
(33:55):
curiosity yourself as you gothrough the world.
I love doing this and justseeing like, if I can have my
higher self on board and watchmy parts, play internally or
watch my behavior externally.
Um, it's fascinating.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (34:10):
This idea of savoring a cigarette made me
think of, um, when I was ingraduate school and being
introduced to the concepts ofmindfulness, the therapeutic
application of mindfulness, um,they had us do a mindful eating
exercise where they gave us, Ithink it was like a peanut M and
M or something and hold it inyour mouth and notice the desire
to immediately chew it.
and swallow it and just getcurious about that, but, but
(34:31):
don't do it.
And then, you know, notice itdissolve in your mouth.
The candy shell turned fromsmooth to rough.
And then you get to thechocolate and notice the
differences.
They're just like slowing itdown and savoring.
Um, and it, you know, might helpyou binge eat less, for example,
and ask yourself those curiousquestions of like, why am I
actually doing this?
Why am I at the bottom of thisTriscuit box?
(34:53):
Is it because I really wantedTriscuits or am I just trying to
chase away a feeling?
SPEAKER_00 (34:57):
Yeah.
It reminds me of- No shade toTriscuits.
Triscuits.
I was at this eating disorderconference years ago where I
participated in a workshop byfolks, I think from Harvard who
were, um, they were presentingabout, uh, a mindfulness based
eating program, like MB dasheat, something like that.
(35:20):
And, but it was experientialtoo.
Um, and I still remember itbecause it was, um, just kind of
applying these ideas to astructured way you might go
through eating of like, beforeyou eat checking in, like, okay,
what is driving this?
How hungry am I?
How full do I feel?
(35:40):
You might look at hunger andsatiety as a couple categories
that are relevant.
And okay, I'm going to eat.
What am I going to eat?
And where am I aiming to beafter this?
And then while you're eating,you're doing those things of
savoring and slowing the rollthat way and maximizing kind of
(36:01):
the here and now.
But then, and midway through,you might check in again.
Okay, Pause.
Am I, how full am I?
How hungry am I now?
Because if you notice the waymost of us eat is not that
mindful, right?
But there's a, there's a bigdifference, a big, big
difference in like, I think whatyou can gain from being mindful
(36:23):
through that and any otherexperience we want to look at in
life.
SPEAKER_03 (36:29):
Yeah, it helps you be more intentional.
So if there really are pursuits,if you're going to pursue
something that can lead to morelasting happiness, it would be
nice to slow down.
And it might be counterintuitiveto a certain part of you that
just really doesn't want tosuffer and wants to experience
joy, this hedonic part, orpleasure, rather.
(36:50):
But yeah, slow it down.
Slow it down.
I've got in my notes...
Something from Viktor Frankl.
Happiness cannot be pursued.
It must ensue.
Yeah.
Perhaps this is connected tothat Aristotelian concept of
eudaimonia, that well-beingconnected to meaning happiness.
(37:13):
Virtue, contribution, this is akind of well-being or happiness
that ensues from the involvementin those kinds of things, the
connection to those kinds ofthings.
It's not because you werechasing a certain affective
state.
SPEAKER_00 (37:26):
Yeah.
And those are, I guess, poignantreminders.
And sometimes they leave mewanting a little bit more of an
explanation.
Like sometimes I'll expand on itof, okay...
Then what?
What do you do if you can'tchase it, force it?
And sometimes I'll think of itas like baking a cake.
(37:48):
You can't force it to bake.
There is a baking period, butyou also need the right
conditions and ingredients.
And I think that kind of ideafor me makes sense in the search
for contentment and peace andwell-being.
SPEAKER_03 (38:05):
I like that.
SPEAKER_00 (38:05):
Creating the conditions for it and not
chasing forcing.
SPEAKER_03 (38:10):
Yeah, and the creation of the conditions might
not be super pleasurable in andof itself.
So you have to have that sort ofbroader perspective on why
you're doing this.
SPEAKER_00 (38:20):
The delayed gratification goes a long way,
or the sitting with discomfort,allowing it.
slowing down the reflexes toavoid it.
SPEAKER_03 (38:32):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I, and we should say we'renot necessarily, um,
evangelizing asceticism here.
Like you don't have to be a monkthat, uh, completely, you know,
removes from their lives, allthings that would constitute
that would cause pleasure.
Um, just, you know, advocatingfor a more mindful approach and,
and knowledge of this tendencyof our nervous systems to get on
(38:54):
that hedonic treadmill.
SPEAKER_00 (38:55):
Yeah.
And it's even like, there's afamous paper called, a wandering
mind is an unhappy mind.
Gilbert and Kingsworth is like15 years old now.
And that one, they had used asmartphone to sample thousands
of people's thoughts and things,but people were less happy when
(39:17):
their minds wandered, even whendaydreaming about pleasant
things, interestingly.
And one reason I bring it up isbecause there's also this
interesting tie to the defaultmode network that we talk about
in psychedelic medicine of mindwandering is more default mode
(39:39):
network activity on board and isequivalent with less of a
feeling of well-being like thehuman mind is a wandering mind
at times and that feels lesshappy and there's it's just
another another case for, youknow, embracing the here and
(39:59):
now, um, and you know, whymindfulness is kind of crucial
to this, this cycle.
SPEAKER_03 (40:06):
Yeah.
And I think there might be somedefault tracks in the default
mode.
And so, for example, if youstruggle with self-worth issues,
or you've got some conditionedbeliefs that lead to feeling
pretty depressed andunmotivated, and you allow your
mind to wander in default mode,then it might be more likely to
fall into those default tracks.
So disrupting the default modenetwork, either by flow
(40:29):
activities or meditation orpsychedelics, is a great way to
throw yourself into a moremindful state where it's more
flexible.
And hopefully you can lay downnew tracks that aren't
necessarily in those negativelydefaulted
SPEAKER_00 (40:41):
states.
Like a fresh blanket of powder.
Or if you want a summer analogy,indentations in the mountain
bike trail from the tires thatyou're wiping clean so you don't
fall into those same ruts overand over.
SPEAKER_03 (40:56):
I'm a skier, so I like the snow analogy.
But when I was younger, I had alot of friends who were into
mountain biking.
And I went mountain biking withmy friends.
And it was like a week after abig rainstorm.
And so there were these deepruts in the trail.
And I could not help but fallinto those ruts.
And every time I did, I freakingwrecked my bike.
taco the tires i still havescars from that trip when i was
(41:19):
15 years old so it's a powerfulmetaphor for me the consequences
of allowing yourself to fallback into those tracks
SPEAKER_00 (41:27):
yeah well it's been a pleasant meandering steve
anything else you want to throwinto the mix
SPEAKER_03 (41:33):
as always uh really pleasant i think maybe just um
letting people know that Wedon't have to be perfect at
this, right?
We're not trying to give you alist of like a Huberman style
protocol where you have to dothis in order to actually be
truly happy and fulfilled.
If you want to indulge andpursue some pleasure, have at
it.
(41:53):
I think, again, just by way ofreview, generally zooming out,
be more mindful, more deliberatewith an understanding of what
leads to lasting happiness andnot just keeping you stuck on
the treadmill.
SPEAKER_00 (42:02):
Well, well said.
Amen.
Amen.
Until next time.
Thanks, Reed.
Why does happiness feel so elusive for so many of
us?
Maybe you've had the experiencewhere you long for a change,
believing that once this changeoccurs, then you'll finally be
happy.
Then that change happens, but itdidn't deliver lasting
happiness.
You buy the new thing, you takethe vacation, achieve the goal,
(00:21):
get the promotion, and you feelhappy for a while, but
eventually it feels like you'reback where you started.
In today's episode of thePsychedelic Therapy Frontiers
podcast, we explore thephenomenon known as the hedonic
treadmill or hedonic adaptation.
This tendency for people toquickly return to a relatively
stable level of happinessdespite major positive or even
negative events or life changes.
(00:42):
We discuss examples of this inaction, possible evolutionary
explanations for this tendency,the role of dopamine, how it
relates to habit formation andaddiction, exceptions to this
tendency, ways to get off thetreadmill, and much more.
For those of you who are new theshow notes or go directly to
(01:27):
numinousnetwork.com forwardslash training.
And you can use the code PTF10for that 10% discount.
If you've listened to the showfor a while, you've likely heard
Reed and me talk about thepsychedelic clinical trial work
that Numinous Network does herein Utah.
If you live in Utah and you'reinterested in being a
participant in psychedelicclinical trials, you can click
(01:47):
on the link in the show notes orgo directly to
numinousnetwork.com forwardslash research, where you can
learn about the trials we'recurrently running.
If you'd like to support ourshow, here's how you do it.
You can leave a rating or reviewin places like Apple Podcasts
and Spotify.
If you're watching on YouTube,you can like the video,
subscribe to the channel, maybeleave a comment, and please
share the episode with someoneyou think might enjoy it.
(02:08):
Without further delay, here'stoday's episode on the hedonic
treadmill.
SPEAKER_00 (02:15):
Hello.
Hello,
SPEAKER_03 (02:16):
Reid.
SPEAKER_00 (02:16):
How's it going, Steve?
Good.
SPEAKER_03 (02:18):
Good.
SPEAKER_00 (02:20):
Very
SPEAKER_03 (02:20):
good.
Sure.
Medium.
Medium good.
Good.
You know, maybe I'm at myhappiness set point.
We're going to talk today alittle bit about something
called hedonic adaptation orsometimes referred to as the
hedonic treadmill.
And it'll be a tangential,wide-ranging conversation, as is
our...
tendency
SPEAKER_00 (02:38):
but why the treadmill part of it well let's
define it first but i i thinkit's an interesting visual
SPEAKER_03 (02:45):
yeah yeah this this notion that uh regardless of
whether or not something reallygood happens in our lives or
really tragic or bad happens inour lives that most of us and
these are all you know averageshere but we have a tendency to
return to a kind of happinessset point um so it's a the
metaphor of the treadmill ithink was popularized back in
(03:06):
the 70s by brickman and campbellis what i dredged up from the
internet but um using themetaphor of the treadmill
because the treadmill is likeyou're in motion but you're not
really going anywhere you'restaying in the same place not
getting happier or moremiserable yeah
SPEAKER_00 (03:20):
yeah because if we adapt to pleasure there's a risk
of seeking that hit over andover uh and we are wired that
way i think You and I weretalking a bit earlier and you
mentioned the old adage, we'rewired for survival, not
happiness.
And so there's a risk of seekingthat hit over and over and
(03:43):
getting less out of it andseeking it more.
And you hear that from peoplewhen they describe substances of
like they might be.
just doing it to do it wherethey don't feel the same high as
they got.
And that happens.
I think you can apply that tobehaviors and substances.
SPEAKER_03 (03:58):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sometimes referred to as chasingthe dragon, right?
Like you have that, that, thatreally intense high and you're
not able to recreate it.
And maybe in the case ofsubstances, you're using
substances at increasingfrequency or higher doses,
trying to get that experience.
SPEAKER_00 (04:14):
And like you mentioned, we adapt to pleasure
and, just as we adapt to pain.
And so we might be seeking moreand more of that pleasure, we
return to a baseline level ofsatisfaction.
So the treadmill is this endlesspursuit of more.
And it has its underpinnings inthe reward cycle and dopamine,
(04:37):
which is commonly called themolecule of more.
SPEAKER_03 (04:40):
Yeah.
So we'll probably talk a bitabout dopamine.
There's a study that many of youmight have heard of.
It's kind of popular when peopletalk about this phenomenon.
Back in the 70s, I think 1978,Brickman, Coates, and Buhlman.
The lottery study?
The lottery study, yeah.
Lottery winners and paraplegics.
So people who sustained aninjury.
From a serious accident.
(05:01):
So a change in their lifebecause of an accident.
And they found that for the mostpart, lottery winners after,
what did you say, it was like ayear?
year or some period of time,they're not really that much
happier than the control group.
But that the paraplegic folksalso weren't much more miserable
after a certain amount of timehad passed than the control
group.
(05:22):
And certainly there wereoutliers, exceptions to those
rules, but those were on averagethis interesting phenomenon.
SPEAKER_00 (05:26):
Yeah, both groups returned to their baseline
within like less than a year, itseems.
SPEAKER_03 (05:32):
Which begs the question, what's going on here?
SPEAKER_00 (05:35):
Why didn't lottery winning make you happy forever?
Yeah,
SPEAKER_03 (05:38):
I mean, I have this sort of intuitive sense that if
I won the lottery, I think I'dbe a bit happier on a consistent
We'll talk about moneyspecifically too here in a
minute.
SPEAKER_00 (05:46):
Is your intuition sometimes wrong?
SPEAKER_03 (05:48):
It is often wrong, yeah.
So there's some theories aboutthis.
There's this idea of perhaps weeach have a genetic set point
for happiness and that maybethat accounts for like 50% of
how happy or miserable we getand where that set point is.
And that life circumstances,your income, your health, your
relationship status mightaccount for something like 10%
(06:09):
of your happiness.
And then intentional activitieslike...
gratitude, kindness, purpose,focusing on goals, might account
for more, more like 40%.
And so again, these are juststatistics, somewhat theoretical
from one particular study, but
SPEAKER_00 (06:26):
food for thought.
Yeah, and you...
Combine it and furthercomplicate it by this phenomenon
of in the cycle of maladaptivebehavior, habit loops, addictive
cycles, if you will, you notonly start to get less pleasure
from the things you mightnormally enjoy, but you might
even be hypersensitive tocertain pain or more annoyed by
(06:49):
things that don't as readilyannoy you, which impacts your
set point.
Like you could be moredisgruntled at baseline or, you
know, you know, discontentperhaps.
And on top of that, geneticcards that maybe dealt us where
we have a set point to beginwith.
SPEAKER_03 (07:08):
Right.
Yeah.
I think there's a lot of nuance,a lot of factors to consider.
And you mentioned dopamine.
Do you want to do a little bitof a deep dive on dopamine, how
it might affect this?
SPEAKER_00 (07:21):
yeah yeah maybe a
SPEAKER_03 (07:23):
shallow dive
SPEAKER_00 (07:24):
but well how about a couple interesting studies to
start uh one i've found um kindof funny is it's like a harvard
2012 study that showed thattalking about yourself activated
um the nucleus accumbens thepart of the brain that is like
key in this dopamine rewardcircuitry activated it more than
(07:48):
receiving money and so um Andthen there was this UCLA study
combined with this one ofadolescents that showed that
more likes in social media ledto more nucleus accumbens
activation.
And I find it intriguing.
You combine it with social mediadepression studies.
(08:10):
and a linear correlation betweentime scrolling and actually
feeling worse.
And you start to see maybe someof this cycle at play in seeking
that spike of dopamine more andmore and getting less and less
out of it and really might betaken away from other areas of
life.
SPEAKER_03 (08:29):
Yeah, it's bizarre when I think about it.
Like we talked about this beingwired for survival, not
happiness.
And it's an oversimplificationto attribute it all to dopamine,
but dopamine is this sort ofmolecule of more, of pursuit.
So it makes sense why thattendency would help us survive,
not be too satisfied, because wegot to make sure that we're out
(08:50):
there collecting food andprotecting ourselves and
obtaining partners andpropagating our genes, that kind
of thing.
SPEAKER_00 (08:57):
Yeah, and that's why dopamine exists for the
propagation of species like toexpand on that survival idea
it's not the molecule of lastinghappiness right it's it exists
to it was evolutionarily kind ofthere for our survival in the
sense of seeking food so youdon't die, so you have fuel, and
(09:19):
seeking sex so you reproduce andyour genes don't die.
SPEAKER_03 (09:22):
Yeah.
Maybe the molecule of malcontenthelps us feel not satisfied with
what we have and where we're at.
More.
Your point earlier about howwhen we really sort of press
that dopamine button over andover and over again through like
a drug that really spikesdopamine or an activity that
spikes dopamine, we landourselves in a trough afterward,
(09:46):
which is part of why it doesn'tlead to the sort of this lasting
bliss that maybe we hope itwill.
SPEAKER_00 (09:50):
What I find uncanny is that we're talking about all
this neuroscience and these 2016UCLA studies and things, but
it's stuff that the Buddhistshave described so well for a
couple thousand years, right?
Like there's this idea inBuddhism called dependent
(10:11):
origination and there's a termfor a patika samupada where it
talks about the trigger or thecue brings up a feeling maybe a
craving and attached to cravingscan be clinging you don't want
to let go of something thatyou're craving that feels good
and then the clinging leads tokind of becoming or like
(10:37):
experiencing but then there'sthis suffering as it's gone
because of impermanence and thecycle just repeats and can in a
treadmill phenomenon you're onit and running through it but um
and then they've had this ideathat's also supported by the
mindfulness therapies we useevery day of awareness is the
greatest um tool forinterrupting the cycle yeah
SPEAKER_03 (11:01):
awareness paired with acceptance right i mean
part of that buddhist wisdom isour attachment to, in our
aversions to things, what wewant and don't want lead to
suffering.
So there's this dukkhaattachment and these cycles of,
what do they call them, samsaracycles or something like that.
It also makes me think of otherancient wisdom traditions like,
(11:24):
well, Aristotle.
Aristotle talking about thedifference between hedonia and
eudaimonia.
Eudaimonia meaning this morevalues-centric thing if you can
call it that, of things thatcontribute to maybe more lasting
life satisfaction than thetemporary hedonic spikes.
And this would be, you know,focus on purpose, focus on sort
(11:45):
of altruism and connect yourlife's work to being connected
to something that really mattersto you that's bigger than you.
SPEAKER_00 (11:52):
It's, uh, Socrates said something like happiness is
not about getting more.
It's about wanting less.
SPEAKER_03 (12:01):
You know what that makes me think of?
So the world happiness reportswhere they survey all these
different countries.
Um, and Finland is just, youknow, consistently freaking
Finland.
I heard, uh, I was listening toMark Manson's recent podcast.
He was talking about, he's theguy that wrote subtle art of not
giving a fuck.
And he's got this cool newpodcast where he does deep dives
on these things and he He wassaying he talked to some of his
(12:24):
Finnish friends about how theyfeel about that report.
And they're like, we're not anyhappier than anybody else.
Our expectations are lower.
There's a culture.
SPEAKER_00 (12:33):
It's cold outside.
It's
SPEAKER_03 (12:35):
that.
I mean, he said, and I don'tknow any Finns, but he said like
there's a culture in Finland ofjust not setting yourself up too
much for disappointment.
Like not striving too much.
Don't expect too much out oflife.
SPEAKER_00 (12:45):
There's also this Finnish saying, I think, because
it's on the wall at the ColdPlunge studio down the road
called Plunge P.
Where there's this term that Iforget the term, I forget the
definition, but it's aboutseeking discomfort.
And it's found in a lot of likeWim Hof circles.
But I think that that is areally interesting reminder of
(13:10):
that.
the more we shy away fromdiscomfort and avoid it might be
perpetuating suffering.
SPEAKER_03 (13:18):
Yeah.
It could be one of our takeawaysfrom today of like how to step
off the hedonic treadmill.
We've certainly talked a lotabout the connection between
experiential avoidance andmental health conditions and
suffering and talked aboutseeking discomfort.
And so perhaps it's a way, likeit's fairly anti-hedonic if
hedonism is just maximizingpleasure and avoiding pain.
(13:40):
You're seeking discomfort,putting yourself in a temporary
state of discomfort, but inservice of more adaptive
happiness, perhaps.
SPEAKER_00 (13:50):
Yeah, I agree with the key takeaway there because
it makes sense.
You cannot be in this blissfulpart of the cycle all the time.
It just doesn't work that way.
And we are at risk of seekingthat or just wanting the
comfortable, cozy, pleasant,happy life.
feelings all the time.
(14:10):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (14:11):
Yeah.
And seeking discomfort can looklike a lot of different things.
You know, it could be one ofthose things for privileged
people where they don't have alot of distress in their life
and they get bored.
Um, maybe they gotta go to trysomething hard or seek
discomfort, or it could besomebody who's heavily
traumatized, has experienced alot of suffering in their life
and the discomfort, um, theiravoidance of a particular kind
(14:32):
of discomfort is keeping them intheir suffering.
Meaning if I were to go in anddo MDMA-assisted therapy and
with the help of the MDMA reallyface some of these intrinsic
stories that keep me suffering,it's going to be really hard.
It's going to involve somediscomfort, but there might be
healing on the other side
SPEAKER_00 (14:48):
of it.
Yeah, the only way out isthrough.
And you've got to feel it toheal it and all that other good
stuff.
Cliche, but it plays out in reallife.
We've seen it over and over.
And what I love about Like whatwe do as a profession is that we
get to examine it in our ownlives and everything around us
(15:13):
all the time.
You know, it, uh, it's, it'sinteresting to watch these
things play out in life and, uh,it kind of brings up this other
idea I wanted to throw into themix of, of, uh, addiction and
habit loops like the hedonistictreadmill has some parallels to
addiction if not the other sideof the coin of addiction or how
(15:38):
addiction uh is born but whatmatters a lot that we don't
always remember is what's goingon in your life not just your
own genetic makeup and your umyou know it may not matter uh...
last year you might have been ina different place where a
substance or behavior wasn't asticky but in the absence of
(16:01):
certain supports and kind of Andif your mental state is
different, not as kind ofresilient or more prone and
wired to suffering, you might beway more likely to get sucked in
or stuck in a cycle.
And we've seen that play outlike in the famous Vietnam
study, for example.
What was that one?
(16:21):
It was Vietnam...
kind of people who went tocombat in Vietnam who got
addicted to heroin.
It was studied in kind of acareful way of...
how they weren't able to breakthat addiction until they were
back home, uh, surrounded bysome of their supports and they
just could not do it in the,when they were in that, uh,
(16:45):
chaos.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (16:46):
Well, and for the people who came home without
that kind of social support, itwas more difficult for them to
kick the addiction.
It also makes me think, is itJohan Hari who wrote, um, lost
connections?
SPEAKER_02 (16:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (16:56):
Yeah.
And this might just be sort of amemified popularized take on
this study.
I haven't looked at it supercarefully, but he's, he cites
the rat park studies.
Yeah.
Yeah, 1980s.
So you have these rats that theyput in isolation, a stressful
environment, got them addictedto a substance.
Morphine-laced water.
There you go.
And they kept going back to thatwater and over and over again.
(17:18):
Until overdose, like deathsometimes.
Yeah, morphing themselves todeath.
And then you had the rats thatwere put in a so-called rat park
where they had things to do.
Other rats to play with.
Partners to have sex with andplay with and all that great
stuff.
And they weren't as likely to goback to the morphine-laced
water.
SPEAKER_00 (17:33):
Other sources of dopamine and perhaps more
lasting ones.
ones.
I think one other takeaway is,you know, you've talked about
the different types of fuel weburn here and, um, the different
spikes of dopamine.
Um, like there are plenty ofstudies to show how experiences
can have more of a lastingbenefit on your wellbeing than
(17:56):
kind of material acquisitionsand things like that.
But, uh, you know, they did havethese other sources of dopamine
than the morphine, like friendsand play.
And it made all the difference.
Like environment and socialconnection strongly influence
whether or not an addictionturns into some lasting
(18:19):
compulsive behavior or like anaddictive behavior or substance.
SPEAKER_03 (18:23):
Yeah, I think this is worth hovering on for a while
because sometimes in this sortof addiction treatment space, we
have a saying, don't ask why theaddiction, ask why the pain.
SPEAKER_02 (18:32):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (18:34):
What are they trying to address by this addiction?
So to our point about what wetalked about just now, if you
have a life that you don't feellike you need to escape from too
much...
then you aren't as likely, youstill could, but you aren't as
likely to fall into these reallyself-destructive dopaminergic
(18:54):
habits,
SPEAKER_00 (18:55):
right?
I think it was in that LostConnections book, actually, that
a really interesting sectionwhere Johan writes about some
country in Europe, maybe it wasFinland, I don't think it was,
like Denmark or something likethat, where they set up these
controversial...
outposts for letting people doheroin in a safe way with a
nurse there before work andwhere you were in the presence
(19:19):
of a supportive other and therewere some ground rules you're
not going to die from overdoseor whatever but what was
fascinating is just thedifferent rates of addiction or
the ability of people abilitypeople had for that to like fall
off and not become as compulsivewith certain supports in place
was really striking.
(19:41):
And so there was another one.
Oh, just a fun fact, perhaps, isyou know how we talk about
self-medicating?
It's a popular term in mentalhealth and pop culture, I guess.
But it comes from thisresearcher.
What's his name?
Kantzian.
In the late 90s, he publishedthis theory, this
(20:06):
self-medication hypothesis,saying that people with
unresolved emotional pain,trauma, or mental illness are
more likely to use certainsubstances and behaviors as
coping tools, like you weretalking about with why the pain.
And the addictive behavior isn'tjust pleasurable, it's serving
another function of...
(20:29):
like it could be a lot ofdifferent things like numbing,
shame, escaping loneliness,calming anxiety.
Like it's not, you're notseeking it necessarily just for
a little bit of pleasure.
You're escaping.
It's
SPEAKER_03 (20:40):
an escape.
Yeah.
You're treating something.
You're trying to numb or getaway from something.
SPEAKER_00 (20:44):
And in the ketamine world, we've ketamine is an
interesting one because it'smaybe not the most highly
addictive substance, but you seethese gnarly cases of addiction.
And, um, Like, we've seen someindividuals, whether they're
kind of patients orprofessionals or whatever, who
(21:06):
have slipped down this slopeinto a scary rabbit hole of
ketamine misuse, abuse, and evendependence.
And I think that's an example ofescapism, like, Because it's
hard for many people to grasp ifthey've experienced ketamine
once or twice in a clinic andmaybe threw up, or it was a
(21:27):
weird experience.
Why would you seek that out?
But there's a lot more at playfor many people.
SPEAKER_03 (21:33):
Yeah, I've wondered at what's at play for people who
do develop an unhealthyrelationship to ketamine.
Because like you point out, it'snot like cocaine.
I mean, if we line up 10 peopleand give them cocaine...
Dopamine.
Nine out of 10 are going to havea great time, right?
Depending on the dose.
It's pretty reliably euphoric,right?
But ketamine isn't like that.
It's more dissociative, right?
Like you said, it can makepeople nauseated, confused.
SPEAKER_00 (21:56):
It's an altered state than your here and now.
Yeah,
SPEAKER_03 (21:59):
yeah.
But if you can just think aboutit for a minute, I mean,
somebody for whom their here andnow really sucks and there's a
lot of pain, if they candissociate, disconnect, go into
the so-called K-hole, disconnectfrom their body, you can imagine
why that might be tempting
SPEAKER_00 (22:15):
to go back to.
And I think you could look atcertain behaviors like self-harm
cutting, for example, in asimilar way.
And I've had many...
Many individuals describe thisto me when they have awareness
of it, is that I have theseurges to self-harm and I'm
(22:35):
pretty convinced now that it isto distract from the pain, to
feel something other than theemotional pain, trauma, shame,
by something that is morepredictable, concrete, that I
can control.
And it's not an adaptivebehavior, right?
It can be a scary behavior.
It is.
But I think it's another exampleof this stuff at play.
SPEAKER_03 (22:56):
Mm hmm.
So this makes me wonder, youknow, if you're ready to move to
this topic, what are somethings, other things to help us
get off the hedonic treadmilland what might be ways we can
focus on this more durable senseof wellbeing rather than chasing
these spikes of happiness?
So one of the first things thatcomes to my mind, I mentioned
earlier, I wanted to talk aboutmoney a little bit.
(23:19):
So you talked a bit about thesort of material pursuits.
So, and most people, this isconventional wisdom at this
point that we'll understand thatit's, if the pursuit of money as
an engine of itself, orcertainly as a way to sort of
signal status or whatever it is,places you squarely on the
hedonic treadmill.
And most people have had theexperience of really, really
(23:41):
looking forward to and buying athing, buying that thing, having
fun with it for a while, andthen returning to their own
baseline.
But that is not to imply thatthe accumulation of money is
fruitless and doesn't contributeto lasting happiness.
If you're in poverty and youhave some serious money concerns
And the social science researchbears this out.
Making more money does make youhappier.
(24:02):
To a point.
To a point.
So the Kahneman study said thiswas decades ago.
So this number is different now.
But like around after about 70grand a year for the average
person, you get thesediminishing returns.
Yeah.
Certainly it's a lot higher thanthat these days.
And some more updated researchsuggests that you actually do
experience little sort ofupticks in happiness the more
(24:23):
money you make.
But it, especially if what youdo with that money is solving
the terrible money problems,like getting good healthcare and
getting good housing and allthose things.
But if you're using money topurchase experiences, you know,
going on trips with friends,being able to connect with
others, or if you're using moneyfor philanthropic purposes, or
(24:46):
maybe investing in a businessthat you really care about, as
opposed to just buying materialthings.
SPEAKER_00 (24:52):
Yeah.
I think it's like we weretalking about with suffering
side of the coin of findingmeaning in it.
You could seek discomfort bythis meaningful pursuit and know
you're going to go through it.
I've seen it play out both ways.
People who end up with a lot ofmoney, there's a fork in the
(25:16):
road of adding to theirwell-being or detracting from it
even.
And I think what matters is Thethings you mentioned, the
meaning around it and what it isenergetically, if you will, in
your life.
Is it something you're seekingon a hedonistic treadmill for
more and more and burning onthings more and more, chasing
(25:41):
those spikes?
Or is it something in thatcategory of more lasting things?
you know, meaningful pursuits inaccordance with your true values
if you go deep and find them.
SPEAKER_03 (25:53):
Yeah, yeah.
It makes me think of a book.
I forget the title, but I thinkit was written by a guy named
Andrew Wilkinson.
where he eventually achieved thestatus of billionaire to
discover that he was miserable.
SPEAKER_01 (26:06):
And
SPEAKER_03 (26:07):
he gives insight in that book that I think, again,
is probably also almost commonknowledge now.
But for some people, the pursuitof wealth is driven by a deeply
rooted insecurity, like notfeeling enough.
And so it's a proxy for theirworth if they can make a lot of
money.
But however high you climb onthat ladder, there's usually
(26:28):
people above you, right?
The guy that makes$1 billion,what about the guy that's
selling$3 billion?
I've got a yacht, but he's got asuper yacht.
And I get it, especially today'sday and age, it's hard to have
compassion for billionaires.
I'll admit.
But they are people too.
But I bring it up just to sortof elaborate on your point that
sometimes what drives,particularly, we're using the
example of money, but sometimeswhat drives that is a wound.
(26:53):
And it's a wound that we'reusing a medicine, in this case
money, that isn't well suited totreat.
SPEAKER_00 (26:59):
Yeah, I think it was Tim Ferriss on Vulnerable
podcast called it a traumaresponse in him and in many of
the entrepreneurs he's workedwith, like the pursuit of
startups more and more grinding.
And yeah, it's reallyfascinating.
(27:22):
That could be a substance or abehavior for sure.
UNKNOWN (27:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (27:25):
Yeah, show me an exhausted, unfulfilled
entrepreneur and I'll show yousomebody whose dad didn't love
him.
Like it's almost a cliche atthis point.
SPEAKER_00 (27:34):
What I've found interesting too, because I've
been kind of re-immersed in thegolf world a little bit this
summer and the number one golferin the world right now, Scotty
Scheffler, made some waves inthe news headlines when he had a
vulnerable open interview totalking about how winning is not
(27:57):
fulfilling.
Or he's like, sometimes hewonders, what is the point of
this?
Like, so I win another majorchampionship, then what?
And then he went on to talkabout how, like, what his values
are is he wants to be a goodfather more than a good golfer.
And he said, like, the minute...
one kind of eats into the next,like he's gonna ditch golf.
(28:19):
And it's interesting, Tom Brady,I think just this week in his
newsletter, responded to thatand said, dude, they don't need
to be mutually exclusive.
Like you could see how these aredebatable points, but I, I quite
liked what, um, Scotty Schefflerwas saying about, about when I
found it refreshing and kind ofraw and, uh, they're coming out
(28:40):
in imperfect words as, as adude, who's not pretending to
have the answers here.
Yeah.
But, uh, I thought it, I, it washeartwarming.
SPEAKER_03 (28:49):
I think you see it, um, that people arriving at that
insight who have tirelessly andwith extreme focus pursued one
particular path of excellence.
Same might be said of TigerWoods, Michael Jordan, like
other athletes, right?
And where they suddenly realizethat they have been on a
treadmill and anotherchampionship isn't going to
(29:09):
grant them the lasting happinessand adoration that part of them
really wanted.
And so they often slow down andlook around and see these other
things that a lot of us feelmore lasting happiness
connecting to likerelationships, parenthood,
SPEAKER_00 (29:22):
things that give us purpose.
We've seen it a lot in mentalhealth clubs clinic work where
people have had their identityso attached and rooted in
something like their life as anathlete, an accomplished
athlete, for example, and thenan injury comes along and their
(29:42):
mental health takes a massivehit.
Like it's almost a dark night ofthe soul crisis of like, what am
I?
Who am I now?
And it's something to keep inmind as we're going about our
pursuits in life and thinkingabout the sustainability of our
(30:05):
well-being.
I
SPEAKER_03 (30:06):
mean, you mentioned how important awareness is in
this process.
And so perhaps what cansometimes keep us on the hedonic
treadmill is a less than idealconcept of who we are, like you
said, what we are.
What brings us and gives usvalue?
Is it extrinsic or intrinsic?
(30:27):
And maybe going way back to thisidea of a genetic set point,
there's a temperamental aspectto this too.
For some people, it's justeasier because of their
particular temperament they cameinto the world with to be more
intrinsically motivated, to notneed external validation as much
as others.
But those are all factors inthis equation.
SPEAKER_00 (30:47):
Yeah.
And so on that note, like to getback to your question of what do
we do about it?
And practically speaking, how doyou use awareness in
interrupting these loops, forexample?
And, um, and one thing that Ilike to remember is yes,
awareness interruptsautomaticity, if you will.
(31:11):
But, um, how do you do that?
Sometimes it's by just allowingcuriosity, like as I like to
think curiosity instead ofcraving and like slowing it
down, I think is, um, akin toawareness in this.
Like I'm thinking about clientsI work with, with say binge
(31:32):
eating disorder, for example, ofthere is a, it's, it's, uh,
there's a, a trigger out therein the world that brings up
this, uh, desire to engage inthat.
And often it's happening onautopilot.
But if you can kind of have thatawareness on board, and
especially as it's going, sit inthat for even just five minutes,
(31:56):
or find some way to be withthat, then you may have just
diverted not just that cycle,but you do that enough times and
you've interrupted the the loop,the habit.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (32:09):
Yeah.
I think curiosity is animportant component of
equanimity of just sort of beingable to sit in the eye of the
storm and not run one way or theother.
Yeah.
I like, I like your distinction,um, with whether, with sort of
chasing something and craving,it makes me think of, um,
savoring right that there arecomponents to stepping off the
(32:32):
hedonic treadmill that are verymuch tied to mindfulness like
you're saying and i thinksavoring is one of them savoring
different from maybe necessarilygratitude just like really fully
being present with what's thereand allowing yourself to feel
the full lingering joy of thatthing
SPEAKER_00 (32:47):
i have a curiosity that is just distracting thought
that's making me chuckle of, youknow, the, uh, the, um, there's
some studies showing how mindfulawareness can reduce cigarette
smoking five X or whatever.
Like, um, but, uh, Have therebeen any studies savoring
cigarette use, like savoring acigarette?
(33:10):
If you're a user of cigarettes,because it is an automatic
thing, like smoke breaks and allthat, or if they look at chain
smokers, just one to the next.
And I also find itinteresting...
to look at in terms of, like, wehave these addiction scales.
Like, say we're doing a smokingcessation study or measuring it
(33:33):
in some study.
One of the questions might be,how many minutes or hours from
when you first wake up until youengage in the first thing,
cigarette or behavior orwhatever, as one of the many
markers of, like, worseningaddiction or taking an inventory
on it?
And those are the kind of thingsyou can...
you can channel your awarenessaround of just watching with
(33:55):
curiosity yourself as you gothrough the world.
I love doing this and justseeing like, if I can have my
higher self on board and watchmy parts, play internally or
watch my behavior externally.
Um, it's fascinating.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (34:10):
This idea of savoring a cigarette made me
think of, um, when I was ingraduate school and being
introduced to the concepts ofmindfulness, the therapeutic
application of mindfulness, um,they had us do a mindful eating
exercise where they gave us, Ithink it was like a peanut M and
M or something and hold it inyour mouth and notice the desire
to immediately chew it.
and swallow it and just getcurious about that, but, but
(34:31):
don't do it.
And then, you know, notice itdissolve in your mouth.
The candy shell turned fromsmooth to rough.
And then you get to thechocolate and notice the
differences.
They're just like slowing itdown and savoring.
Um, and it, you know, might helpyou binge eat less, for example,
and ask yourself those curiousquestions of like, why am I
actually doing this?
Why am I at the bottom of thisTriscuit box?
(34:53):
Is it because I really wantedTriscuits or am I just trying to
chase away a feeling?
SPEAKER_00 (34:57):
Yeah.
It reminds me of- No shade toTriscuits.
Triscuits.
I was at this eating disorderconference years ago where I
participated in a workshop byfolks, I think from Harvard who
were, um, they were presentingabout, uh, a mindfulness based
eating program, like MB dasheat, something like that.
(35:20):
And, but it was experientialtoo.
Um, and I still remember itbecause it was, um, just kind of
applying these ideas to astructured way you might go
through eating of like, beforeyou eat checking in, like, okay,
what is driving this?
How hungry am I?
How full do I feel?
(35:40):
You might look at hunger andsatiety as a couple categories
that are relevant.
And okay, I'm going to eat.
What am I going to eat?
And where am I aiming to beafter this?
And then while you're eating,you're doing those things of
savoring and slowing the rollthat way and maximizing kind of
(36:01):
the here and now.
But then, and midway through,you might check in again.
Okay, Pause.
Am I, how full am I?
How hungry am I now?
Because if you notice the waymost of us eat is not that
mindful, right?
But there's a, there's a bigdifference, a big, big
difference in like, I think whatyou can gain from being mindful
(36:23):
through that and any otherexperience we want to look at in
life.
SPEAKER_03 (36:29):
Yeah, it helps you be more intentional.
So if there really are pursuits,if you're going to pursue
something that can lead to morelasting happiness, it would be
nice to slow down.
And it might be counterintuitiveto a certain part of you that
just really doesn't want tosuffer and wants to experience
joy, this hedonic part, orpleasure, rather.
(36:50):
But yeah, slow it down.
Slow it down.
I've got in my notes...
Something from Viktor Frankl.
Happiness cannot be pursued.
It must ensue.
Yeah.
Perhaps this is connected tothat Aristotelian concept of
eudaimonia, that well-beingconnected to meaning happiness.
(37:13):
Virtue, contribution, this is akind of well-being or happiness
that ensues from the involvementin those kinds of things, the
connection to those kinds ofthings.
It's not because you werechasing a certain affective
state.
SPEAKER_00 (37:26):
Yeah.
And those are, I guess, poignantreminders.
And sometimes they leave mewanting a little bit more of an
explanation.
Like sometimes I'll expand on itof, okay...
Then what?
What do you do if you can'tchase it, force it?
And sometimes I'll think of itas like baking a cake.
(37:48):
You can't force it to bake.
There is a baking period, butyou also need the right
conditions and ingredients.
And I think that kind of ideafor me makes sense in the search
for contentment and peace andwell-being.
SPEAKER_03 (38:05):
I like that.
SPEAKER_00 (38:05):
Creating the conditions for it and not
chasing forcing.
SPEAKER_03 (38:10):
Yeah, and the creation of the conditions might
not be super pleasurable in andof itself.
So you have to have that sort ofbroader perspective on why
you're doing this.
SPEAKER_00 (38:20):
The delayed gratification goes a long way,
or the sitting with discomfort,allowing it.
slowing down the reflexes toavoid it.
SPEAKER_03 (38:32):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I, and we should say we'renot necessarily, um,
evangelizing asceticism here.
Like you don't have to be a monkthat, uh, completely, you know,
removes from their lives, allthings that would constitute
that would cause pleasure.
Um, just, you know, advocatingfor a more mindful approach and,
and knowledge of this tendencyof our nervous systems to get on
(38:54):
that hedonic treadmill.
SPEAKER_00 (38:55):
Yeah.
And it's even like, there's afamous paper called, a wandering
mind is an unhappy mind.
Gilbert and Kingsworth is like15 years old now.
And that one, they had used asmartphone to sample thousands
of people's thoughts and things,but people were less happy when
(39:17):
their minds wandered, even whendaydreaming about pleasant
things, interestingly.
And one reason I bring it up isbecause there's also this
interesting tie to the defaultmode network that we talk about
in psychedelic medicine of mindwandering is more default mode
(39:39):
network activity on board and isequivalent with less of a
feeling of well-being like thehuman mind is a wandering mind
at times and that feels lesshappy and there's it's just
another another case for, youknow, embracing the here and
(39:59):
now, um, and you know, whymindfulness is kind of crucial
to this, this cycle.
SPEAKER_03 (40:06):
Yeah.
And I think there might be somedefault tracks in the default
mode.
And so, for example, if youstruggle with self-worth issues,
or you've got some conditionedbeliefs that lead to feeling
pretty depressed andunmotivated, and you allow your
mind to wander in default mode,then it might be more likely to
fall into those default tracks.
So disrupting the default modenetwork, either by flow
(40:29):
activities or meditation orpsychedelics, is a great way to
throw yourself into a moremindful state where it's more
flexible.
And hopefully you can lay downnew tracks that aren't
necessarily in those negativelydefaulted
SPEAKER_00 (40:41):
states.
Like a fresh blanket of powder.
Or if you want a summer analogy,indentations in the mountain
bike trail from the tires thatyou're wiping clean so you don't
fall into those same ruts overand over.
SPEAKER_03 (40:56):
I'm a skier, so I like the snow analogy.
But when I was younger, I had alot of friends who were into
mountain biking.
And I went mountain biking withmy friends.
And it was like a week after abig rainstorm.
And so there were these deepruts in the trail.
And I could not help but fallinto those ruts.
And every time I did, I freakingwrecked my bike.
taco the tires i still havescars from that trip when i was
(41:19):
15 years old so it's a powerfulmetaphor for me the consequences
of allowing yourself to fallback into those tracks
SPEAKER_00 (41:27):
yeah well it's been a pleasant meandering steve
anything else you want to throwinto the mix
SPEAKER_03 (41:33):
as always uh really pleasant i think maybe just um
letting people know that Wedon't have to be perfect at
this, right?
We're not trying to give you alist of like a Huberman style
protocol where you have to dothis in order to actually be
truly happy and fulfilled.
If you want to indulge andpursue some pleasure, have at
it.
(41:53):
I think, again, just by way ofreview, generally zooming out,
be more mindful, more deliberatewith an understanding of what
leads to lasting happiness andnot just keeping you stuck on
the treadmill.
SPEAKER_00 (42:02):
Well, well said.
Amen.
Amen.
Until next time.
Thanks, Reed.
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Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
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