2. The Masque of the Red Death

This week, Stacey and Lindsay sat down with Brett Bachman, who is an editor on the show!

Tune in next time for more Poe, more interviews, and more deep dives!

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
Strawt Media. Hi, I'm Stacyand I and I'm Lindsay Jones. Welcome
to episode two of Psychoanalyzing the Fallof the House of Usher. Today we
talked to Brett Bachman, who's aneditor on the show, and I'll just
let you know that he validated allof my confusion about the timeline. We're

(00:25):
all supposed to be confused about that. Thank you, Brett. So our
session starts now, all right,The following is the recap for episode two
of The Fall of the House ofUsher. If by some chance you have
not seen episode two, please stopthis podcast right now, go watch episode

(00:49):
two, deal with whatever issues you'llneed to deal with at the end of
that, and then come rushing backover here so that we can tell you
what happened. Okay, this isthe recap. So we start off in
nineteen seventy six with young Inspector Dupan, who has been investigating mysterious grave robberies
that might be linked to a drugtrial. In the present, Dupin and

(01:11):
Roderick dispute the addictive dangers of Fortunatodrug Ligodon. Roderick recounts the death of
Perry, otherwise known as Prospero Perryhad a very debaucherous lifestyle while struggling to
belong with the rest of the family. Perry was lined up to have a
job along with Frederick and Pim todiscuss environmental concerns with various lawyers about certain

(01:36):
fortune our properties that had toxic wasteproblems. However, Perry became so excited
that there was a themed house thatmight really fit into his party idea that
he decides to take over that propertyand use it to hold a mass sort
of rave slash orgy. Meanwhile,Roderick, who is suffering from catasil,

(01:57):
which is a sort of heart dysfunction, is pinning all of his hopes on
Victorine's experimental heart mesh, which ishopefully going to change the way his heart
will process his blood. However,the monkey dies and it doesn't look so
great. Madeleine seeks to create AIusing Lenore's memories. A young Roderick married

(02:20):
to Frederick and Tamerlane's mother Annabelle Leeat the time, fails to pitch Ligodone
to Fortunato's CEO of nineteen seventy sixRufus Griswold, but Madeleine continues to encourage
her brother Juno, shares that shemet Roderick after expressing gratitude for a ligodon
during a car accident. Frederick's frustratedwife Marilla, secretly leaves and attends Perry's

(02:47):
party, where Perry plans to seduceher as part of his revenge on his
brother. However, Verna appears suddenlyand for warns of consequences, telling Perry
that he should leave as soon aspossible, and then ultimately warning Morella as
well. The water that will issupposed to come down at midnight to signal

(03:07):
the beginning of the orgy. Unfortunately, and I just want to say this
is a lesson for all of ushere. If you're going to have an
orgy and the water is the climax, and it just so happens that you're
having that orgy on the side ofa place that has been condemned for toxic

(03:28):
waste problems, check the tanks beforeyou let the water drop, because it's
possible it might not be water.It could be some horrible acid which maims
and disfigures all of your guests andfrankly kills the sex vibe. If I
may be so bold, Hey,there's nothing sexy about what happened totally blows

(03:49):
it. We don't know whether Morellaarrives. We know that Vernon manages to
leave and get away, and thatis where we end up with episode two.
What a barn burner. This onewas, Oh my god, I
don't know, Like I watch alot of these shows, I did not
see that coming. Did you seethat coming? That the water was really
gonna be acid? I have tosay I did. I'm gonna say yes.

(04:12):
When they said these things have lotsof toxic waste problems and then somebody
said, oh, look at allthose tanks of stuff upstairs, We'll just
use that for the water. Therewas a moment where I was like,
gosh, I sure hope there's waterin those tanks up there. Like,
I know, it sounds like agreat idea to get everybody wet, But
also though, just as a sidenote, is it okay to get everybody

(04:35):
wet right before they have an orgy? I also feel like that's just that's
just a longer climb uphill after that, Like everybody's wet, and just sort
of like, ah, I've beensplashed with thousands of gallons of water.
I'm not really in the mood anymore. Let's go get a sandwich. I
feel like, is what would happenthere? I'm gonna admit I don't think
it'll be a surprise to anyone.Yes, I haven't been too many orgies,

(05:00):
ever been to any Okay, no, no orgies, all right,
but I don't think if I knewI would be splashed with water, that
that would be the thing that wouldget me to go, because my hair,
my outfit, I make up.Well, ostensibly you are half to
fully naked, so your outfit isnot really a concern. If you're in

(05:23):
a shower, you're prepared for gettingwet. I don't know. Not the
orgy, Oh man, what amess. That's just my take. All
right, Well, listen, Iknow who not to invite to my next
orgy. Then, yes, wedon't for so many reasons. I want
to say one other thing. Iwas going to call it a fun fact.

(05:43):
Let's just call it trivia. Ohboy, Ruth Cod who plays Juno.
Yes, so she was in themidnight club and she talks about,
you know, she met Roderick inthis car accident where she lost her leg,
and that's the character Juno lost herleg. Well, the actress Ruth

(06:04):
Cod lost her LEGO. It's areal thing. She was a soccer player
in her youth, so she's allalready like quite young. She lost She
was a soccer player and she hadan injury that ultimately ended in her losing
her leg. So, oh mygosh, I didn't know that until I

(06:26):
read about it. I think she'slovely and charming. I think she's and
she was just discovered in for theMidnight Club. Mike Flanagan discovered her.
I can't remember where, but Ithink she's going to be a big star.
I wonder if they wrote that intothe script based on Mike Flanagan knowing

(06:46):
this actor who already had this thiscondition, if that character was based on
that, I mean, she hada similar condition in The Midnight Club.
So I think I think she youknow, you wouldn't necessarily know that if
she wasn't talking about it in hercharacter. But yeah, so once again,
more questions than answers here, Yes, and no acid at the Orgies

(07:13):
please, So let's get to ourguests now. So we are here with
Brett Bachman and Brett Bachman is afilm editor with titles that have premiered at
Sun Dance, Toronto Film Festival,south By Southwest Film Festival, and con

(07:34):
He also worked on numerous television andcommercial projects. Recent work includes Pig with
Nicholas Cage, were Wolves Within,Next Exit, and Daniel Isn't Real.
Welcome to the show, Brett,Hello, Thank you for having me.
Awesome. We are so glad you'rehere. How are you today? Doing

(07:54):
great? Yeah, I'm excited.Show premiered yesterday, so I'm in following
the release and checked it out lastnight. I had a little bit of
a watch party here. Excellent.How did people respond to it? Quite
graphically? I had my wife's parentsover and we saw the first two episodes,

(08:16):
and I think they were quite surprisedwith the outcome of episode two.
I don't think they were expecting thatas much. It's the show is totally
quite It's quite a pivot from somethey've seen Mike's earlier shows, and I
think it's quite a pivot for themin terms of what they were expecting.
Awesome you are. I know youare a Mike Flannagan fan even before you

(08:41):
became involved with this show. Ohyes, sir, can you tell us
how you sort of got involved withthe show? Yeah? Be happy to.
I first remember hearing about Mike.I think this was like back in
twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen, andhe was doing an interview I think it
was on the radio, and theyprefaced his introduction with saying that he was

(09:05):
a film editor turned writer turned director, which made me lean forward immediately and
I was like, this guy didit? How did he make the jump?
And it was for his film Oculus, and I had been a big
admirer of his for years as someonethat has a firm grasp of the craft
and at all levels, you know, whether it was the editing component of

(09:28):
it, or the writing, orthe directing, or just the ability to
kind of steer the ship as ashowrunner, you know, whether it's going
back to Oculus or I was blownaway and left in awe. And his
ability to juggle Doctor Sleep, youknow, coming from the legacy that it
did, and of course all ofhis Netflix shows. I've been My wife
and I have been big fans foryears. I mean, we finished hill

(09:50):
House in two nights. I wason a gig in Austin and my wife
visited me and we spent the entireweekend watching Midnight mass I've been a fan
for a very long time, andas we're both in the horror world,
which is a relatively kind of smallcommunity, we've never really bumped into each
other over the years, but we'vehad a lot of mutual acquaintances. I

(10:13):
did a movie that one of hisproducers worked on. We have some mutual
producer friends. But the connection reallystarted when I had a movie come out
a few years ago called Pig andMike I think my per movie's biggest fan.
He's seen the movie at least fouror five, maybe six seven times,

(10:35):
like he's He's told me, he'sHe told me he would be on
location, he would be on setand if someone at the house had mentioned
that they hadn't seen Pig, hewould sit them down in front of a
TV screen and watched them watch themovie. And I remember he reached out
to me directly after taking a generalwith my director, Michael Swanowski from that

(10:56):
movie, and I think was justeffusive about the entire film as a whole.
And I was at work one nightand I was browsing online and I
logged on to Twitter and I hada direct message from Mike that basically offered
me the job right there online.Wow. He was like, I'm starting
this new show thrill exactly. Westarted shooting in three months, A huge

(11:18):
admirer of your work, et cetera, et cetera, And it was kind
of like on the spot right there. I had to take a few more
meetings to get vetted by his producingpartner and our post production, our post
producer on the show, but itwas kind of a done deal after that,
and I learned I would be doingediting though really the full series as

(11:39):
an assembly at that point, likedoing the first cut on everything, and
then Mike would come in take overediting duties on his episodes, and so
that was my expectation kind of goinginto the process. It's not exactly what
happened, but yeah, that washow we got introduced. Wow that's so
cool. Yeah yeah, I meanto just idolize someone like that and then

(12:00):
have them offer you a job likethat, that's really amazing. Like he's
such an acclaimed director. And goingback to what I said about the craft,
I mean, the guy knows hisstuff. He's and as like a
film editor watching another film editor turneddirector, you can see all the little
little bits of craftsmanship that go intonot only making a movie, as a

(12:22):
whole, but in the individual microbeats. My wife and I were watching a
movie of his Ouiji, Origin ofEvil, and my wife had not been
a big horror fan in recent years. As I started doing more, though,
when she starts to learn a lotof the behind the scenes mechanics of
how these things are shot and performedand edited and scored, and how we
mixed the sound, she began tokind of open out to the experience a

(12:43):
little bit. And we were watchingthis one particular scare in Luiji where this
girl she's a demon in a mirrorand both It's one of the best jump
scares in the entire film, andwe ended up just rewatching that scene I
think two to three times, andI was breaking down like what Mike was
as he was the editor on thatmovie, his own movie, and walking
to her through the mechanics. So, this is why it's paced the way

(13:05):
it is, This is why thesound interacts the way it does, this
is why he holds on the reviealinginformation here. He's just one of the
best. So based on that,Brett, can you break down a scene
from episode two like that? Oh? Yeah, I can. Do you
have a specific scene in I meanthe jump scare that is Dupan sort of

(13:31):
turning into this being and then returningback to himself like that in that moment
that definitely scared me to death.Yeah, I know the moment you're talking
about. It's where Perry, theghost of Perry comes right in front of
Roderick, I think, and hisskin has been kind of burned off at
that point. Yeah, that's right. Yes, that's a great moment,

(13:52):
very very effective. I mean,one of the things I have been a
big fan about Mike for years isthat he knows how to to shoot a
scene to prepare tension and suspense anda scare. And that particular beat when
we cut it together, was allabout the slow burn and like slowly unraveling
more information. A huge component ofwhat makes a scare work is you're innate

(14:16):
curiosity of in the threat of likewhat is just beyond the peripheral, what
is in the darkness? What isthis arbitrary or excuse me, what is
this ambiguous threat that we're perceiving?And so you know, a big component
of that is having your your threatlike in the background, in the shadows,
you're not really quite sure what thisis. Building curiosity you're building tension,

(14:37):
you're building suspense, and this asuh they're also oscillating and contrasting that
with Tupa, who was oblivious tothe entire thing. So you're not exactly
sure who's a threat here. Isit Roderick or is this thing going to
go after Dupa? So, likeI said, it's a little bit of
that unknown. It's an ambiguous qualityof where is where should I align the
threat, where it's going to comefrom, where is it going? And

(15:00):
as the scene progresses, you beginto see the shade of Perry walking through
the background. Dupah completely oblivious,doesn't see it, kind of wondering if
this thing is going to attack himand he's going to be instant think of
this. But as Perry begins towalk closer and closer to Roderick, we
frame him very carefully, so younever see his head. You're just restricting
certain bits of information and gradually appeelingmore and more. And one of the

(15:22):
things I love about the second halfof the scene, as Rodger continues his
story about talking about the Golden Rule, is that we decide to frame out
Perry. You don't see where heis. You know he's been walking toward
Roderick, and now you're expecting thatthreat's going to happen at him, but
you don't know when it's going tohappen. And so he's going on not
about his story, and he's gettingto the point and he's kind of rambling.

(15:45):
And then by the time the visuallanguage of the scene has changed.
So when we've gone to a profilenow to close up, I think innately
the film grammar just says here itcomes. And so you're getting a bit
intense by this point. And sowe've alway been doing ninety percent of how
is all the build up of thisIt's all about teasingess and clarifying what's going

(16:07):
to happen next, And then ofcourse the cut right to his POV.
He looks up, he stutters,and you have some great prosthetics, some
visual effect work, and some veryquick and startling hopefully pays often a bit
of a jul sense of dread,hopefully entertaining in the self for the audience.
I really love hearing you describe thisbecause I can really sense from you

(16:32):
how much enjoyment you get in sortof the build and the setup, and
literally I wish everyone could see yourface You're literally doing everything right now except
kind of going wah. As partof this thing is the setup. I'm
curious when you're working from Mike Planagan, who is as well known for his
editing skills as his directing skills,is there is there any pressure on you

(16:56):
for that? Did do you everfeel like, oh, man, and
I got to make sure I editthis to his specifications? Or how is
he to work with in that way? I mean he's quite Yes, Basically,
he's I've always admired his work,you know, as a filmmaker,
as an editor, and so Ireally feel like I have to bring my

(17:17):
a game when I'm not just deliveringwork to a producer or a director,
but I'm delivering work to a colleague, to another editor, someone that knows
the craft I mean quite distinctly andcan really talk about the small details.
I mean, the man has madesome of the best horror films of the
last decade, and so you definitelyfeel like you have to come prepared and
you know what you're talking about.But he's very relaxed, quite chill,

(17:42):
he can be. He's just anotherdude, you know. He's a very
intelligent dude, and he knows hisstuff, but he feels like you're just
talking to really a nice friend ora neighbor when you chat with him.
But yeah, so I had tomake sure I very much did a lot
of research before we get to onthese things. I read the script several
times, try to have the bestunderstanding of character and of story as you

(18:04):
can. And also one of thethings, as as editors, as we
do, we have to keep onreminding ourselves that our position is to be
a helper, be supportive and soand not to take things personal if a
director wants to, you know,take things one way or the other,
which is part of the collaborative process, especially with something as foundational as as

(18:26):
editing, which is you're building thefinal product. And so with Mike,
you know, I prepare scenes.What happening is that I prepared the entire
series, all eight episodes, andmy understanding was that Mike was going to
take over the four episodes that hedirected, and he would recup those as
he saw fit, and then Iwould take over editing duties with the director's
cut with the Fimiinari DP and theco director on the show. But you

(18:51):
know, Mike ended up taking overthe editing duties on his episodes. But
what I was shocked to learn isthat he ended up keeping most of the
work I had prepared in the earlycuts. The visual structure is quite similar,
and so I ended up getting coco editing credit on seven episodes instead
of four, which I was shockedand surprised. And that was completely over

(19:11):
myself with very happy basically. Andso when you get things to Mike,
I mean you have to expect.You know, sometimes he's going to be
like, oh, that's not exactlyhow I saw it. I might tweak
a few things. He might say, you really missed the mark here and
that's not what I had in mindat all. And he might just recut
the scene entirely from scratch, whichis as prerogative as not only your colleague,

(19:33):
but as the showrunner and the producerand the lead writer. I mean,
he's the book stops with him,so to speak. That's so generous
of him to give you that additionalcredit. I mean, I know that
that's a big deal, so thatthat really speaks a loud about him.
I'm that huge for me. Iwas so generous of him. Brett.
I noticed you had an Instagram postyesterday. I mean, probably more than

(19:56):
one. But I was reading thispost of yours where you talked about what
you were trying to achieve with thecharacters and the style and just the whole
mood. But you talked a littlebit about trying to find some you know,
like the character of the characters basically, And I talked about that a

(20:17):
little bit when I did my episodeone recap. How I mean, if
you were trying to create characters thathad little redeeming likable qualities, you achieved
that, And so I was justwondering if you could talk a little bit
about that. So one of thefirst things Mike described when I had my
meeting with him after that taking thejob, and I'm kind of getting I've

(20:40):
read the first script and I justwant to kind of get into his head
and like, what is the show? I mean, I was well before
production. I was like, thisis quite a contrast from a lot more
of the emotional shows like Hillhouse Supplyor even Midnight Club and Night Mass.
And he's like, this is astark departure, this is a this is
a karmic fantasy. It's a storywhere your typical antagonists, your boogeyman.

(21:06):
This deity figure is the most virtuouscharacter in the show. All these other
individuals kind of get what's coming tothem in a way that should be hopefully
satisfying for the audience to watch,where you've made these individuals just seem so
devoid of relatable qualities of grace,kindness. They've just been devoured by greed.

(21:30):
He talks a lot about in theediting room and about how the ushers
are emblematic of American decay, ofhow this capitalistic system is gone wry,
and how they're the worst emblematic theyrepresent the worst of our greedy tendencies.
And so he's like, Verna,this figure is here to deal out a

(21:51):
sense of retribution and of justice,and I want the audience rooting for her.
And it's quite fascinated to hear thatcoming from a show where everybody's like,
the other characters are just despicable andI don't like them, and they
kind of get what's coming to them, uh, And yet I find them
fascinating. I mean, in theway where the old kind of cliche is
that it's much more fun to playa bad guy. I mean, the
same kind of said a little bitabout editing a bad guy, someone of

(22:15):
that has loose morals or just Ifind something so compelling about well written villains
where they are done right. Youbegin to see little bits of yourself in
them. You begin to see whereyour own greedy inclinations or your tendencies or
give you given to your id andthis idea that they're doing maybe what I

(22:37):
want to be doing. That Ifeel like that's that's too far. But
like they are, they're living unabashedlyand it's been corrupted. So when you're
looking at someone like give give agood example. So I love samanthas Llayan's
character in the show tamer Lane.I find her is so interesting, uh

(22:59):
and I whenever I'm working with hermaterial. What I love about what sam
was doing is I always sensed thatthere was something behind her eyes where she
was ruminating and over thinking about andwhen she's talking with Juno, and Juno
was saying that, you know,this tragic event is transpired and we're all
just this is typically when families comecloser together, but it seems like we're

(23:22):
farther apart than ever. You getthis sense that this little bit of sympathy
is building behind her eyes, andshe'd be so easy for her to say,
you're right, this is terrible,I'm so sorry. Yeah, something
like that, something human, Andyou see the decision that for her to
shut down that emotion, for herto shut down that outreach of sympathy,

(23:45):
and she just says, well,tell them I cold, or tell him
I stop by when you see himnext, and she leaves. And the
series is full of those little microchoices that these actors are making too.
You know, you think they're juston the cusp of doing something that would
be generous and kind and sweet andsomething, but they always choose the selfish

(24:06):
route. They always choose the onethat's going to make them look better or
get them more money, or followtheir own interest. And that's why I
find them utterly compelling, time aftertime after time. It's so true.
It's funny that you mentioned that too, that I've lately been thinking about the
show less about less in a horrorcontext and more sort of like as the
flip side to succession. The showSuccession, it's sort of like succession with

(24:29):
consequences, essentially, whereas all ofthese reached people really have to deal with
what they have done and the baddecisions they've made. Yeah, I've heard
this a lot in Italy. I'venever seen a single episode, so I'm
taking people's word for it when theysay that. Yeah, no, I
highly recommend it. It's a reallygreat show. I know Mike was a

(24:49):
big fan as well. It didn'tcome up much in the editing room,
but now I feel like I haveto come back and watch of the show
after doing this series. Yeah,you'll definitely with You'll be like, well,
when do the bad things start tohappen? And then they kind of
don't. They sort of happen basicallybecause of in a completely different way than

(25:11):
horror things catch up to them.But it's fun. I mean, that's
kind of the opposite of our showin the sense that you build up these
very despicable characters to enjoy in thisreptile called of your brain, where you
begin to see the ultimate justice beingdone to them. Yeah. I wanted
to ask you a storytelling question ifI could, because there's a lot to

(25:33):
keep track of in this show.There are a lot of characters, There
is a jumping back and forth intime, and not just in rodber Gusher,
but also in episode two, wereally start to see that we're going
to flash back in time to Depansbeginnings and sort of getting to understand his
story. And then also there's thesort of moving around of perspective in terms

(25:59):
of like what's real, what's hallucinated, what is not hallucinated but real but
feels hallucinated. Like there's a lotof things to sort of keep track of.
And I'm just curious when you andMike were beginning to assemble things,
was there a conversation or philosophy thatyou both talked through about, like,

(26:21):
Okay, this is how we're goingto keep all of these things straight,
just you know, like what's real, what's not real, and what what
the audience has to figure out overtime. Yeah, that's a great question.
I think we wanted the audience tobe questioning what is Can I trust
what I'm seeing? You know,this idea of an unreliable narrator, So

(26:45):
with you know, a good examplewould be Roderick. You know, is
he is he actually seeing ghosts inthis house? Or are these hallucinations being
put upon by his medical diagnosis?When you are tracking two storylines, and
whether it's the nineteen seventy nine storylineor whether it's modern day storyline, I
my hope is that an audience seesyoung Madeline and Roderick and ask, how

(27:07):
is it possible these individuals grew upto be you know, the modern day
interpretations of them, they seem,you know, Miles apart. You know,
Roderick seems like this young, bumbling, kind of naive employee at this
medical firm. How did you growup to be this dynamo? And so
a large part of it was trustingthe audience that they're going to kind of

(27:29):
follow these things and figure these thingsout. But having them ask questions throughout
the series was something we really encourageand we wanted them to be participant.
There are certainly mystery elements that we'rethreatening throughout, you know, whether it's
Vernon's identity or questions about character development, how did Roderk become the way that
he does? And so I thinkwe just largely trust the audience that there's

(27:52):
going to be some information they don'tknow, and that's perfectly fine. If
you trust us and you stay withthe show, hopefully you'll discuss for most
of those answers yourself. We won'thave to necessarily explain them to you,
and that's hopefully the join watching amini series like this where you can discover
this over the course of eight hours. Totally that that's really interesting, And

(28:12):
I feel validated now that you kindof wanted us to be a little confused,
because I was a little even inthe present day storyline, right,
you don't know, like you knowwhat happened on this day, what happened
two weeks ago when it was thelast time he saw all of his kids
together, and what and then there'smoving forward in time. But I have

(28:34):
a question about the decision to leteveryone know at the very beginning that all
the kids were dead already. Yeah, well that was something that was I
mean back from the script, earliestesses of the script. I think that
was always in the show's DNA.And one of the things I really appreciate

(28:56):
and respect about that decision was thatit was all from the onset decided to
do a series about the fall ofthe House of Usher. I think when
the writers first came together, hopefullyI'm not misquoting anybody here, but they
take this framework of a man comesto someone else's house to hear a story,
and the hook is I'm going totell you about how my children died,

(29:18):
and hopefully as an audience member,you lean in a little bit and
you are. Of course, you'reraising questions about how did these children die
if you've kind of teased up allthese unnatural, strange deaths in the prologue
by seeing all the headlines. Buthopefully it also reframes the thoughts you're having
while watching the show. It's notnecessarily are they going to survive or not?

(29:40):
If you tell the audience right outthe bat that all these characters are
going to die, I think reframeswhat you're thinking about as you're digesting the
series and watching it. It becomesless about the outcome and more about the
decisions that they make. I thinkit allows you to have a bit more
of an internal exam of these characters'choices and why they lead to what they
do, and you can be activelyparticipating in a sense of dread that's been

(30:03):
building. It's kind of the ideaof suspense, you know, with Hitchcock
and his bomb. Example, likeif you just have two characters, few
characters at the table and it justexplodes all of a sudden, you get
surprised. But if you tell themthere's a bomb underneath the table and you
just sit in the scene and you'rewaiting for that bomb to explode, it
changes your entire experience. And sowith Usher, I think by telling the

(30:26):
audience or at the bat that thesecharacters are dead and your own preconceived notions
about how they are dead is wrong, let me tell you the truth instead
of surprise, I think that createsa sense of mystery, and I think
that's more of what the framing devicethat Mike and the other writers are going
for. Wow, that's great.Thanks. I wanted to ask you,
particularly in episode two, the buildtowards the water Drop. Oh. Yes,

(30:53):
it seems like from the time thatPerry and Verne exit the it seems
like the music is getting more intense. The cuts seem to be getting quicker,
the lighting seems to becoming more andmore abstract, the music becomes more
intense. And one of the thingsthat I really observed in the storytelling in

(31:17):
the editing was that you weren't stayingwith anybody for any period of time.
It was quickly moving from people weknew as well as people we didn't know,
the security guards, people on thedance floor, all of that stuff.
I'm just curious when you have ascene like that that is built around
the idea that there is going tobe this massive climax when you approach how

(31:45):
you're going to cut that sequence tobuild that climax. Are there any sort
of like rules that you think aboutor things that you're responding to or is
it completely instinctual You're just sort offollowing your instincts of like, oh,
this, this goes here, thisgoes here. How do you build those
things so that it really has themaximum impact? That's a great question.

(32:08):
So, I mean it's a bitof both, to be honest. I
mean, certainly it is instinctial inthe way that you're looking at you know,
all these minutes and minutes of hoursof material that was shot, but
it's all prelude to the sprinklers goingoff. But you're also having to follow
all these parallels, timelines and storiesthat are happening in the scene themselves.
And so you know, that seemedparticular. I'm so happy you mentioned it

(32:31):
because that scene hasn't changed since thevery very very first time that was cut.
The scene, the final scene thatappears in the show was my first
edit and Mike, I remember heknocked on my door one day and he
came in in the ending room andhe's like, I just saw the finale.
I haven't changed the frame, andthat's it's exactly The edit is exactly

(32:52):
the same as when I cut ittogether back in like March or twenty twenty
two. And it's one of myfavorite scenes in the entire show because it's
so like you said, it's buildingtowards something so dramatic, and you have
all these parablel things that are goingon. The sense of dread and suspense
is just building the entire time,and so much of that is depending upon

(33:12):
it is because of the factor asyou mentioned. It's the type of music
and the tempo that's going up beneaththere, it is the sound design.
It is all these parallel threads,so they kind of give you like a
breakdown of like how I would assemblethat. Of course, you're watching all
the footage that comes in, andso in a scene like this, you
have, you know, all theseextras, and you have all these cameras

(33:34):
following these individual Perry coming out ofthe room and his friends on the dance
floor, and then you have Mauryon the side kind of watching all the
doors being shut, and you havethe bar tender then you have Carla whispering
into people's ears, and so you'retaking all this footage and you're more or
less just kind of that first edit, you know, the super rudimentary early
stuff. You're just preparing kind ofthe beats themselves, and you know it's

(33:57):
always going to build up to thismoment. But the thing they often say,
you know, uh, it's sometimesit's good to have restrictions when you're
dealing with creativity. The restriction thatI had is that we had this awesome
Nine Nails redex Yeah, and soI knew that listening to that, I
was like, well, when thiswhen the music drops, like, that's
when the acid comes, Like that'severything has to build up to that,

(34:21):
obviously, And so you back thatup on a timeline and you see when
does this music start. When doesit feel like there's a good storytelling beat
for the music to kick in,the kid, the audience to say,
shit, it's about to get real. And I was like, well,
the wait staff leaving like that,that's a perfect moment for that. So
let's see if we can find away to kind of when that the Nine
Nails basically drops in and you sendthese the bartender begin to kind of leave,

(34:45):
and then more kind of looking andsaying like what's going on when you
know we've been teaned up this momentthe entire episode, that something's about to
happen, and she decides to stay. It just builds and builds, and
then you just kind of work itdown a little bit more to kind of
feel the natural flowed. Then that'sthe rhythm of it. Make sure you're
tracking, you know, Perry comingin, him being oblivious to what's going

(35:06):
on, him desiring his friend Farageto like knock down the ring for at
the start, but you're tracking Maury, and I still get shivers when like
Burnard like whispers in right here,like go now, because you know the
stakes are raising. And so it'sall those things. It's the parallel storylines.
It's the music being a kind ofa creative restriction that you have and

(35:27):
kind of building around that a littlebit. And then sometimes sometimes even the
choice of like suck out sounds,suck out music, you know, as
we had it in the music trackand we used to go right into the
big climax of that song. ButI was like, well, after he
knocks down that the lever, let'sjust suck all the music out. Let's
just put the audience in silence,and then we have this slow motion boom

(35:51):
down that Mike and Finny shot,And I was like, just let the
audience suffer. Just let them sitin silence and they know what's happening,
and they don't know what it's goingto happen, and just streps out of
it even more. And then letthe let these let an innocent scream be
the thing that kicks off the musicpunching back in and at that point that
you're just off to the races.At that point it just becomes a catastrophe.

(36:14):
It is really funny how sometimes theabsence of something can make it even
more scary. Oh yeah, it'sthe same way with I think drama,
like not having an answer, havinga big fat question mark is sometimes I
would argue, more often than not, much more satisfying than something hadn't been

(36:35):
explained to you, you know,the sense of ambiguity, a sense of
threat, a sense of the unknown, Like that's just that's just storytelling that
makes you lean in and makes youwonder what happens next. And the same
is it's the same when you crafta horror sequence or a suspense sequence,
you know, gep the audience guessingwhat's going to happen next, even if
they have a good guess of whatit's going to be. I had no

(36:58):
idea what it was going to be. I mean, I knew, I
knew that, you know, someonehad to die pretty soon, but I
didn't know that. And just soyou know, I'm sure you know this,
and Lindsey maybe you noticed this,but I didn't notice that the music
stopped. You know, these arethese subtle things that you're doing behind the
scenes, you know, to enhancethe show for the audience that I don't

(37:20):
think you know, the average audiencemember is going to pick up on.
They might feel it viscerally, butnot know what they're responding to. And
that's one of the things I loveabout filming is that you're taking all these
micro details into consideration when you aretelling the story. Yeah, you're using
it's basically storytelling, but with yourwords and punctuation points are visuals and sound.

(37:45):
One of my favorite moments in thisparticular episode as well, is when
after they're taking the drugs upstairs andHarry's downstairs in the party waiting and it's
spread before Verner comes in and hejust sits there and he looks he's standing
in the middle of the crowd ondrugs, and it just looks so bored.
He looks so unfulfilled, and helooks like he's just not having a

(38:06):
good time at his own party.And it's a small beat. But then
when you see Vernon come in onthis big shot with the double doors opening
and she walks right in the frame, it's just having that little shot of
Perry just kind of standing around lookingfor something, feeling like this isn't exactly
what I had in mind. You'llget the sense of desire, they get
the sense of something that's lacking.And so when Verna comes in, he's

(38:28):
like, who the hell is that? I need to follow that because that's
really interesting and at least that's whatit does for me, you know,
seeing that little shot like that.But the entire series is made up of
these little moments that the actors areperforming or you know, lighting gag and
hopefully, if we do our jobin the evening room, we're picking these
individual moments and hopefully stringing them togethercohesive, but also entertaining efficient a manner

(38:55):
that engages the audumence. Yeah,it's so interesting to hear you talk about
about this, because I think peoplesometimes view editing as a as a technical
job, as a sort of technicalskill, and there certainly is a great
deal of technical work that goes intoit. But what I'm getting from you
as you explain this is how muchinvestment you have in the story, how

(39:16):
much investment you have in the characters, and just you're the sheer enjoyment of
storytelling, which is something that Idon't think I would know if I hadn't
talked to editors to learn that that'sthat's what they love about the job.
Is the is the storytelling part ofit? Oh? Yeah? I mean

(39:36):
we're the first ones watching the movie. Are We're watching not only all the
rod stuff come in, but we'rethe first ones to watch back a rough
cut of a scene and ask like, does this work for me? Does
it engage you? Does it doesit make you lean forward as a nondience
member and say that's really cool?Or are you bored by it? Is
this something if it was purely technical, you could just flap a few shots

(39:58):
together and then show them to youdirector and take notes Why I was gravitating
towards filming in the first place,is it feels like you're such a it's
such a fun process to be thefirst one to put shot A and shot
B and shot C together and producea new emotion out of that, to
produce something that wasn't there either onset or it feels like you are building

(40:22):
and there's a sense of structure andthere's a sense of play and experimentation that
you can have. And of courseyou have all the other elements you talked
about as well then, I mean, you have character, you have subtexts,
you have the sky's the limit reallyon what film can do. But
what I love by film it isand that you're also a filter. You're
taking all this stuff in and you'reprocessing it and putting something that you feel

(40:45):
strongly about and hopefully passionate about infront of a director or producer and then
also be amenable to changes that they'regoing to come back with and also say
like, Okay, I was proudof that thing I just did. Let's
go back and change it to tweakeven more to make sure you're happy.
And because ultimately we're here for thedirector, for the producer, We're here

(41:05):
for the movie itself, and tobe a support and be a helper,
but also that storyteller. I wantto just like highlight. You were talking
about Verna and Maury, and firstI'll just say that moment with Verna makes
you aware that she's she's probably themost honest character in the whole show,

(41:27):
right, you know, she's exactlywhat to be right, and you know
she didn't she didn't want anyone whowasn't meant to be, you know,
hurt, to suffer the consequences.But that whole thing with Maury, I
felt like she wasn't just looking aroundwondering what was happening, but there was
like I don't know that I've seenthat actress before, although she was in

(41:51):
Midnight Mass, but there was likean awkwardness about her, like she was,
I think, hoping something was goingto happen, you know, with
Perry, and then he followed Vernaand I saw the kind of disappointment on
her face and just she's dancing.It's just so awkward and you just like,

(42:13):
I don't know, I just feltthat awkwardness with her, like ooh,
do I have along here? Andmaybe I'm a little too old to
be here. Maybe you know,and at first Perry wanted her, and
then Verna comes in, and nowMaury is not interesting anymore, and he's
going to go check out this otherone, and you just see her being
wounded by that, and it wasit kind of broke my heart. Yeah,

(42:37):
and I love the way Crystal decidedto play that character in particularly in
the first two episodes. You definitelyget a sense that she's there wanting something.
I always was never really sure whatshe wanted. And did she come
because she was looking for sex,did she come because she was looking simply
for a night away from her family. Did she come because she wanted to
recapture a little bit of the youththat she thinks feels like she's lost.

(43:00):
It's just one of these I feellike there are so many levels to the
way Crystal played It could be interpretedso many different ways. You just know
that she's unfulfilled when she shows upto this thing, and it's a bit
of a mystery. Ultimately you knowwhy she was there, and I think
that really, of course, ifyou can keep on watching a series that
really feeds into a little of theparanoia that Frederick has about her being there.

(43:23):
In the first place, like,why was she there? What is
his phone? I mean, yeah, she's one of the more sypathetic characters
in the entire series, which Iguess it is saying something, Yeah,
that's an achievement on the show.Yeah, but you're right, she sort
of specializes in kind of the momdancing. I was sort of struck by

(43:45):
how she's clearly in the room andclearly wants to start talking to other people,
but somehow continues to be by herselfno matter what her instincts bring her
to. And because I'm still onlyI'm trying to watch these one at a
time, So because I haven't progressedpast episode two yet, I don't know

(44:08):
whether she got out of the roomor not. And it's not clear at
the end of episode two whether shegot out of the room or not.
But it does seem like it's meantto be unclear whether or not she actually
escapes. Well, I'm not goingto spoil anything. Then aviusly hasn't gone
fast too. I will say weanswered that question definitively in episode three,

(44:31):
so you don't have to wait long. All right, Okay, I appreciate
it, But if more is deador if she is alive. Believe me,
she in one form or another oflow return. She's not completely gone
yet, but in what form?I won't say cute scary music here.

(44:51):
I mean, I've watched the wholething, and it's so hard for me
to wait while Lindsey watches one episodea time because I can't. I can't
talk to him about but but whatabout this yet? So it'll all come.
But I'm enjoying the suspense. It'sthe most I ever did in the
day was four episodes a day,so I couldn't. Oh, my god,

(45:14):
one day what you've seen. We'regoing back and not making a little
changes, but you know, stillstill four hours of tating or what's in
the day if not? Holy wow, Well, Brett, thank you so
much for spending this time with us. This has been so incredibly enlightening and
interesting to learn these behind the scenesthings about it, and and yeah,

(45:36):
like I said before, it's justsuch a pleasure and a joy to see
how much you enjoy this job,how much you've enjoyed the storytelling of it.
I really think that that that careand that sort of you know,
real sort of craftsmanship around the work. It really shines through in the material.
It really does seem like everybody involvedwith the show had a great deal

(45:59):
of scaring everybody to death. Ohyeah, thank you so much for saying
that, Lindsay, Like, Mikehas a great team of people around him.
There's a reason that he's been workingwith the same composers and sound team
and his DP for years. Imean, he's really quite the family around
these things, and everybody approaches uswith their a game and a lot of
care and respect for the material,what else the job. So it's just

(46:22):
an honor to be a part ofthis. Thank you. It's really fun.
I've enjoyed every minute of it,and I really enjoyed talking with you
about, you know, some ofthose behind the scenes, you know pieces.
So it's really enlightening. And Imight go back and watch it a
third time now. So you saidit twice already, I have. Well,

(46:44):
you know, I watched the wholething, then I watch it again
to prepare for our recording, andbecause I watched the first episode the third
time and found something I hadn't seenthe first two, so oh cool.
Yeah, So that's really fun.I mean, it's it's it's a lot
of fun. I saw these stuffon the big screen in Austin, Texas

(47:04):
as a film premiere a few weeksago. And you're seeing things on the
big screen that I didn't even see, you know, after being with us
for almost a year and a half. Wow, we're seeing things in the
background. They seeing little choices orlittle things the actor might be doing that
you never saw on a smaller screenbefore. Awesome. Thanks again, Brett.
We really appreciate your having being withus today. Hopefully will continue to

(47:24):
enjoy your work in the future.Thank you, Thanks Lindsay, Thanks Jacy.
Well, that was amazing. Thatwas Brett Bachman, the film editor
for the House of Usher. Ireally enjoyed talking to him. I learned

(47:45):
so much. What about you,Lindsey totally? Oh my god, he's
and he's great. You know,remember when we talked to the editor from
The Patient last season. Yeah,I had the same feeling after that.
This that conversation I'm having now,which is just I feel like I've learned
so much about like the emotional sortof heartbeat of the show, like the

(48:07):
sort of kind of like the carethat's put into it, because you really
see how much these editors invest theirown personal selves in their work and it
really means something to them, howmuch they care about it, And I
just find it so incredibly inspiring,you know what I mean. It's just

(48:28):
really great to talk to him,especially in that scene at the end.
There's so much happening at one time, and the decision making involved in every
second, which frame you put next, Like, we don't think about that
when we're just watching the show.We're just like, oh, yeah,
we're just watching the show. Butthere's so much involved. Yeah, I

(48:52):
mean it sounds in some ways abit tedious and in some ways, like
you said, like really inspiring.How they create the mood in doing that.
It's amazing, Yes, it is. I mean think about it,
right, Like you've got very expensivecameras filming lots and lots of beautiful people

(49:13):
wearing amazing clothing on incredible sets,doing extreme things, and somehow you have
to go through all of the filmof all of those riches, right,
and sort of sift out of thatthe storyline, right, you have to
pick like, oh no, actuallythis is the most beautiful shot of this
crazy thing that happened. It's quitea job. It really is kind of

(49:36):
like I have a hard time understandinghow I would be able to make those
decisions because there's so much there.I don't think I could. I mean,
I also felt very validated by himby Brett, who said that we're
kind of meant to be confused aboutthe timeline. So then I was like,

(49:59):
Okay, it's not just me,few it's not just me who was
confused. I need constant reassurance notto be confused, not just on this
show, but just in life,in your life. I need, I
literally need somebody every single day tobe like, this is fine, confusion
is okay, that's what it's.We meant to do that, Okay,
I'll remember that. And the otherthing was that they kind of want the

(50:22):
audience to kind of root for Verna, you know, because that was great.
That was great because I felt alittle bad in the beginning saying oh,
yeah, these characters don't have anyredeeming characteristics, but he confirmed that,
oh yeah, no, no,they're not meant to and you should
be rooting for Verna yere So okay, So not only are they these characters

(50:43):
without any redeeming characteristics, but atleast in episode two, they are clearly
given options over and over again ofhey, if you make this decision.
Things are going to work out,Okay, take the right decision, and
every single time they actively choose thewrong decision. Yes, And that just

(51:07):
continues. They just continue to makea wrong decision every time. And it's
not a spoiler. We know thatthat happens because we know they all are
dead already. So yeah, thanksfor that. That's helpful. This is
not really who done it kind ofthing, because well, it is kind
of a who done it in asense because at least in episode two,

(51:30):
Roger Gusher keeps saying, hey,listen, just so you know, this
is all totally my fault and everyone, and then Japan keeps being like,
of course, it's not your fault. I saw these things happen. You
weren't even there, and he's like, oh no, no, just wait,
yeah, I mean, I promiseyou there's still plenty of things you
don't know, plenty of surprises yetto come. I'm living for it.

(51:51):
I really, I know that Iprobably should watch the entire series in one
night like this, but I haveto say I am enjoying the graph dual
sort of reveal of all of thesethings. Like it's like a meal,
you know what I mean. Iwant to savor every bite of it.
I want to like really enjoy allof these details. Is I uncover them

(52:13):
because you only get that surprise orscare really that one time once? Yeah?
Yeah, yeah, it doesn't lastafter that. True, that's true.
Wow. Our time is up.Yes, we've got We've come to
the end of another session here onPsychoanalyzing the Fall of the House of Usher.
We're looking forward to seeing you nexttime for episode three. Join us

(52:36):
then by bye. Psychoanalyzing the Fallof the House of Usher is a production
of straw Huit Media. Your hostsare Stacy and I and Lindsay Jones.
Your producer is Maggie Bowles. Editingand sound design by Daniel Ferrera. Theme
music by Adrian Brennger, with additionalmusic from Marco Martini and Artie Son.

(53:00):
Dribe, rate and review and comeback for new episodes every Friday and tell
us what should we psychoanalyze next.Let us know by emailing us at psychoanalyzingat
strawhumedia dot com. See you nextweek.