November 24, 2023 • 48 mins
Are Madeline and Roderick's fates inextricably linked? This week, Stacey and Lindsay speak with Jamie Flanagan, who co-wrote episode 7 with his brother Mike Flanagan!
Warning: We talk a little bit about episode 8 in this interview, so be aware!
Tune in next time for another interview and new deep dives into the The Fall of the House of Usher on Netflix!
Warning: We talk a little bit about episode 8 in this interview, so be aware!
Tune in next time for another interview and new deep dives into the The Fall of the House of Usher on Netflix!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Straw Hut Media. Hi, I'mStacy Nye. Hi, I'm Lindsay Jones.
Welcome to episode seven of Psychoanalyzing theFall of the House of Usher.
We have a great episode for youtoday. We interview Jamie Flanagan. He
is the writer of episode seven andhe is going to give us all of
(00:25):
the dirt behind this gruesome episode,The Pit and the Pendulum, So stay
tuned for our show. Our sessionbegins now. Okay, here is the
(00:45):
recap of episode seven, The Pitand the Pendulum. Spoiler warning. If
you haven't watched the episode, godo that right now and come back and
listen to us. So four majorplot points in this episode. What happened
between Dupon and Roderick, Juno,Freddy's demise, and the deal with Verna.
(01:07):
What happened between Dupon and Roderick isthat despite all of the preparation for
Roderick's testimony against Fortunado, Roderick actuallystabs Dupon in the back at the hearing,
saying that not only did he signevery document that was actually forged,
he accuses Dupon of harassing him.It's excruciating to watch, honestly, Briefly,
(01:30):
a little note about Juno. Shewants to get off of Ligadon.
She asks the doctor if she cando that. Roderick is not supportive.
It's a pr nightmare, he says, and it will take her three years
because it is in fact quite addictive. Frederick's demise, what a fucker he
is, and it is worth everyminute of what he gets. He has
(01:55):
put wedding pictures all over his room. With Maury, she looks bad.
Her bandages haven't been changed since shegot home, and they look bloody and
infected and awful. She gets anotherdose of nightshade paralytic while Freddie tells her
about how he was initially attracted toher smile and so he then uses that
(02:19):
piece of information against her and proceedsto remove all of her teeth with appliers.
It is gruesome and horrifying. Whenhe's done with that task, he
goes to the building where Perry diedto oversee its wreckage. But first he
has to be a prick and goinside, snort some coke and take a
pee on the floor. When suddenlyhe falls down, we learn that he
(02:45):
has accidentally taken the night shade paralyticthat he had been giving Maury instead of
coke, and so by the timeVerna shows up, he's paralyzed laying on
the ground. Verna picks up hiswalkie talkie and using Maddy's voice, gives
the awe clear on the wrecking balland lays down next to him to watch
(03:06):
him die. The steel ball breaksinto the building, triggering things start falling
all around Freddy, including an anvilthat gradually gets lower and lower as it
swings back and forth. Eventually itgets so close it starts slicing into his
stomach, and the whole roof comesdown on top of him, with the
(03:27):
anvil right there. While that washappening, Leonor finally breaks down the door
to her mother's room, and,horrified by what she's found, calls the
police. Lastly, the deal withVerna. Madeleine returns to the childhood house
to talk to Verna, trying torenegotiate their deal, which we still don't
know what that is, but Vernasays no. Madeleine finds Roderick in the
(03:51):
basement, staring at that brick wallagain. She tells him that Freddy is
dead, reminds him of the dealwith Verna, and convinces him to kill
himself. He swallows an entire bottleof ligadone and soon is laying dead on
the ground. But no no,Verna shows up, touches him on the
cheek and tells him she can't lethim go out so easy. End of
(04:15):
episode. Man, this is reallythe episode where we start to truly understand
the depth of Verna's powers. Like, up till now, Verna shows up
a lot of places like, oh, coincidentally, I happen to turn into
an aporn. Oh coincidentally, Ihappen to be here as this horrible thing
(04:40):
happened. But in this particular episode, Verna is more sort of hands on,
if you will, in terms ofcontrolling people's fates. I mean,
when she assumes Freddie's voice and thewalkie talkie to begin the demolition of the
Big the big room where they youknow they're the acid Orgie went as we
now know it, you know she'sAnd also the part where she's like,
(05:03):
let me lay down to you,next to you, buddy, and let's
watch this thing slowly swing over andover and into you. You can sort
of tell. With the some ofthe other ones, you're not sure how
Verna how much Verna can control thisor how much Verna is experiencing it or
enjoying it. Verna is an activeparticipant in the death of Freddy and really
(05:29):
seems like she's been waiting for thisone. She's she's been living for this
one. Yeah. I think asmuch as she's not evil, I don't
think she's not spiteful like you knowthese other people she's she's maybe not a
sociopath. I don't know, butyou definitely do not want to be on
Herd's side. No, right,I mean she will make it bad for
(05:54):
you, man. Yeah, Ithink she's the definition of bad for you.
Basically. If Verna shows up,run absolutely absolutely so. Let's talk
to the person who wrote this outrageouslygruesome episode, Jamie Flanagan. We are
so excited to welcome Janie Flanagan,who is a Bram Stoker Award winning writer
(06:18):
and actor. His television writing creditsinclude Netflix's Haunting a Blind Maner, Midnight
Mass, The Midnight Club, TheFall of the House of Usher, and
AMC Shutters Creep Show. He alsohas significant stage credits in Columbiness, which
was at New York Theater Workshop,where he received a Drama League nomination,
(06:39):
as well as productions with Woollie MammonthTheater Company in DC, the Studio Theater
in DC, Arena Stage, EverymanTheater Theater, Jay Roundhouse Theater, and
Rep Stage. We are super excitedto have him with us today. Jamie,
Welcome to the show. Okay,Jamie, you were saying something just
(07:01):
before we came on the air whichI am really excited about, and I
don't want to drag it out fortoo long, but you and I apparently
we know each other from before,which I did not remember. Is that
true? Yeah, yeah, weknow each other from the Cherubs program at
Northwestern the Theater program. I wasa faculty associate in around two thousand and
four, two thousand and five,I think I taught like a class for
(07:24):
pinter pauses, which was really notthe best choice because of a very static
and stationary thing to try to teachhigh school shoot years. And then you
directed Ubahwah that year, which wasabsolutely delightful and one of the best mountings
of that show that I've ever seen. So kudos to you. You've stuck
with me since then, and yeah, wow, thank you so much.
(07:46):
Oh, it's a pleasure. It'sgreat to see again. It's great to
see you as well. I'm absolutelyfloored by this. And it's funny because
the first question that I was goingto ask you, of course, is
about your theater experience already writing fortheater? Is that true? Not so
much writing for theater. I wasa performance major, and then I was
(08:07):
an equity actor for about fifteen years, and then then I did a complete
left turn and started doing ultrasound,cardiac ultrasound for about six years. Then
I became a screenwriter and just usedeverything I learned from theater, which is
one of the lines that I wouldlike to say and put them on the
page. Wow. It made fora great education being on stage and when
(08:28):
it comes to being a writer,Wow, what an interesting history. Can
you talk us how you went fromactored ultrasound cardiac tectonis into horror writer?
Absolutely? Yeah, So I wasin my I was in my thirties,
and for the equity actor route,I pretty much just done regional theater.
I did like one off Broadway playcalled Columbiness, which is about the Columbine
(08:50):
shootings. I remember that play,and i'd done that actually in a couple
of places, from Juno, Alaskato New York Theater Workshop and it began
at Roundhouse Theater and in Maryland.And yeah, you know, I'd always
tended bar waited tables, taught adjunctyou know, sold those vector cutco knives,
whatever I had to do to survive, and coming into my thirties,
(09:13):
I just wanted something more stable,or so I thought. So I started
taking gen ed's for medical just ata community college while I was still acting,
And I took a creative writing coursethere, which was away for me
to be creative while I was takingall these medical courses. And long story
short, while I was doing this, my brother had been in Los Angeles
(09:35):
just you know, busting his assfor at least a decade, and I
would still pop out there and doindie films with him, like Ibsenia was
one that we did way back inthe day that probably I would I would
say that that's the one that gothim on the map, that got him
the cloud to then go do Oculusand wow. About the time that I
was starting to go crazy as aecho cardiographer, he had you know,
(10:00):
kind of had his success with Hillhouseand I'd played a small role in that
and had a really good time init. And then he was on the
blind manner and I was like,hey, you know, here are two
scripts I've kind of written on myown steam. Could you show them to
you a producing partner, and ifthey're any good, you know, I'd
love to be in a writer's room. So they brought me in as a
staff writer on that one, andthey kept me around because I haven't shot
(10:20):
the bed well enough yet, Isuppose, but yeah, they've they've kept
me on ever since and it's beena true delight and a you know,
complete complete change of lifestyle. Andit's a very rewarding career. It's a
really strange time to be in it, especially post strike, because the entire
industry is contracting. Yeah, andwith the absolutely vital changes that have been
(10:43):
made to writers' contracts plus the contraction, it just means there's going to be
a lot less people writing in thefield, which means that you know,
of course, I'm looking at allthe old survival jobs that I used to
look at. And that's the thingabout below creator level screenwriters is they're always
just a few months away from,you know, having to jump right back
onto whatever survival job they had before. And you know that that kind of
(11:03):
puts it right in the wheelhouse ofwhat it's like to be any kind of
a creator in theater or music.It's it's the same gig economy at the
end of the day. So truethat we would very much like it to
be more sustainable, and a lotof the changes made in this in this,
in these new contracts should make thatmore sustainable. It's still, especially
for people below the level of say, you know, executive producer, it's
(11:26):
still really hard to make a careerout of it. Yeah, well,
that's that's quite an interesting progression.And I'm slightly surprised hearing that history that
you didn't write the episode with Victoryin the Telltale Heart. But I did
actually suggest the technology for that one. Nice it did. It had been
(11:50):
something that I'd read up on yearsago. Yeah, the the heart mesh
that was used on a rabbit,and they said this could make the heart
beat indefinitely. That was something thatI pitched in the writer's room and then
we all ran with it. Thefunny thing is is that when it comes
to episode execution, sure there's nameson it, but when it comes to
the generation of all of these stories, those are broken as a group.
(12:11):
In a room together, so everyepisode has all of us working on it
to beat out every single beat thathappens in the episode, every emotional turn,
every character moment is agreed on beforehand. So by the time you actually
get an episode assignment in their handof the script, you have a complete
outline of where things are going thatare based entirely on the collective. But
how lucky are they to have anultrasound technician on staff who can give them
(12:35):
all of the heart information they needfor that episode. That's amazing. Absolutely,
That's the goal too, is diversifyyour writer's room with people from very
different walks of life, so hopefullywhen you run into characters, you have
somebody in the room who has somethingnear that experience that can throw in something
useful. And we had just awealth of interesting people in that room,
(12:56):
from Rebecca Klingle to Danny Parker toMattchjohnsen to Justina Ireland. An amazing group
of writers, and of course withMike at the Helm, you kind of
can't go wrong. I just wantto say, I'm a psychologist. I
don't know if you have a psychologistin the room, but I want to
throw my hat in there. Wow, but you're pitching yourself right now.
(13:16):
Wow. Okay, you know everyonecan hear maybe Michael here, But we
actually just spoke to Beca. Ohdid you yay? Yeah, And one
of the things she told us isthat Mike he hands out the episode assignment
because he sees something of the characterin that particular writer. Didn't she say
(13:41):
that? Lindsay, yeah, thatthe writer matches that character in some way?
Right, So how did you possiblypiss off your brother enough to get
a signed Yes? Oh, man, I mean the things that I do
to piss off my brother are legions, so there's really not one that you
could put that on. But Iwould have to say that I think it
(14:05):
came down to I had a lotof thoughts in terms of actually the Madeline
Verna scene in that one, Ipitched it pretty passionately in the room,
and I went really gung ho forCity in the Sea, the poem that
Verna recites to Madeline. Yeah,it can be tricky to get producers to
(14:26):
sign off on doing an entire poemduring an episode. Even in a show
about Edgar Allan Poe, It's veryhard to get them to agree to do
that. So, yeah, youknow, I was really really passionate about
that, and I was just gladthat, you know, Mike let me
take my shot at that and turningit into kind of a montage and you
know, sort of executing on thepage how I thought the editing might work
(14:48):
in order to make that resonant andto tie it thematically to everything that was
going on in all of the substoriesand subplots. For me, that poem
ties the whole show together. Definitely, that whole episode. It sort of
hinges on it, that idea ofthis horrific Babylon, like you know,
the city built of the dead,eventually having Hell rise up to greet it
(15:11):
even though it's already technically drowned.It's just a crazy, awful, dreadful
poem and I love it to pieces. That's totally my speed. I wanted
to ask about the use of poetryin the show, because the show is
really exceptional in its use of poselanguage and the use of his material.
(15:31):
I mean, like, you guyscould have just written a really scary show
and that would have satisfied a lotof people, but you it's like when
you go to a restaurant that's betterthan it has to be based around this
round. You guys made this showbetter than it needed to be, and
I think the poetry is such anintegral element of that. Can you talk
a little bit about the process ofhow you integrated Poe's works into the script?
(15:56):
You know, what was that processlike of trying to figure out this
is where we put the pole.A lot of the challenge of it was
is, you know, of coursewe have the pilot as the you know,
the proof of concept and also somewhatthe roadmap. It promises you that
all these kids are going to die, and then we just really had to
figure out which Poe tail we're goingto attach to each sibling. In order
(16:18):
to do that, we man itwas a long conversation that stretched out for
a very long time of being like, all right, black Cat goes here,
Pitt in the Pendulum goes there,Goldbug goes here. And the funny
thing is is that even the onesthat you know we give a title like
say, Pitt in the Pendulum,Pitt in the Pendulum, this episode that
does end with the Pendulum is farmore City in the Sea and Berenice and
(16:41):
Mets. And I'm going to pronounceit wrong because I always do Metzengerstein in
terms of poe Works, So Metzengersteinis where Frederick gets his name. He's
the you know, the heir apparentin that particular story who ends up being
a complete tyrant and then is youknow, rides off on sort of flaming
horse of his felled rifle into thenight, never to be seen again.
(17:04):
And that's sort of you know,Frederick's hubris, which he definitely has and
definitely sort of surfaces out of thatcharacter by this episode. On top of
that, you have Barnice, whichis all about a betrothed you know,
would be a husband who cares somuch about this his sort of failing physically
failing and ailing cousin who he's goingto marry, that it becomes obsessed with
(17:27):
her. And when she starts towither away, she smiles this smile,
and it embeds itself in his brain. He has these sort of day dreams
about it, and then eventually hewakes up from one of those day dreams
and it turns out he's ripped outall of her teeth and put them in
a tin on his dresser. Soit's sort of like, you know,
how do you decide which story goeswhere honestly, it's kind of a grab
(17:48):
bag, and then it becomes Domino's. You're like, well, if this
one is killed by black Cat,then that sets up this If Maury is
bedbound and the wife, we're like, oh, okay, there's a kind
of a Baronice thing going on there. Should we do the teeth And we're
like, oh my god, that'shorrible, and okay, we should definitely
do it. If that's our reactionin the room, is that's that terrible,
then we should absolutely go there.And we're like, it makes Freddy
(18:10):
unforgivable, but what are you gonnado? It's po you know, it's
a rough, rough world, soyeah, you know, it's interesting.
So many of these stories have otherworks pulled into them, from Angel of
the Odd, you know, asprobably the most obscure, to a lot
more of the popular ones that peopleknow that are just kind of snuck in
there or actually serve as better architecturethan the title of each episode, which
(18:33):
is definitely the case with Pitting thePendulum, which again I think is Barnice
meets metsa Anger Steining. It's weird, but there it is. And City
in the Sea is just kind ofthrown in there because of I felt like
it was a keystone. And Iwas very lucky that after the draft went
in people agreed with me, sobecause you know, that can always backfire,
(18:56):
and I lucked out this time.I didn't, you know, the
gun didn't go off in my ownface. A good moment. It's a
beautiful moment in the show. It'sreally beautiful. Thank you. Yeah,
it's you know, And I loveMadelin's reaction. Yes, I think it's
important that she didn't quite get itthat. You know, there's there's a
blind spot that people in power have. Yet when someone speaks something to them
(19:18):
that's an analogyman to clarify something,they are wilfully blind to it because in
order to acknowledge it, that haveto acknowledge their part in something that terrible.
And nobody wants to be the badguy, especially the bad guy.
I think Freddy likes being the badguy, though I think he gets there.
I think it's it's this, it'sthis pride and this wanting to live
(19:42):
up to, you know, thissort of shape that his father had cut
out for him from the word gothat he never quite fit into. And
yeah, he loses himself in there. You know, I think it's the
next episode says that that those thetwo kids basically died when they were kids,
drowned in money, and by thetime they made it to Roderick they
(20:03):
were different people. And I've alwaysreally liked that the way that that was
put it feels very true for Frederickfor sure. And yeah, Carla Gagina
does the poem beautifully, and youknow, the cinematography and Feminiari is just
incredible, and you know, there'sjust there's so much there that works in
(20:23):
unison and in sync. And Ithink Feminiari directed that episode and he's he's
a wonderful just collaborator and human beingand to see him sort of transition from
cinematographer to director has been really exciting. I mean, Carla is amazing,
and her performance is you know,it's not quite as wild and crazy as
(20:44):
some of the other ones, butit's got this like subtle depth to it
that you can actually like her eventhough she's you know, doing these these
terrible things, and you really youfeel even some like empathy for her.
You're kind of rooting for her,and and just she's gorgeous and captivating.
(21:06):
The whole time. I agree wholeheartedly. She's the first time I saw her
was in Suddenly last summer on Broadway, and she was incredible and that was
ages ago, just ages and agesand ages. So when Mike brought her
in to do Hillhouse, I prettymuch freaked out. I was like,
Oh my gosh, that's amazing.And ever since, you know, oh,
(21:27):
actually I think that was that.The first thing he used her in
was Gerald's Game. It might havebeen Gerald's Game, but yeah, you
know again, it's just an incredibleperformance in both of those She's she's just
been such a wonderful, wonderful presence. And when actors elevate what's on the
page that well, I will sayit makes our job as writers easy.
(21:48):
It just makes it far more rewardingto know that you don't have to put
every line of subtext into a monologue. That these actors will pick up what's
on the page and what isn't andwhat is between the lines and find a
way to make that breathe and live. That's essential, I think, too,
good storytelling when it comes to thesemediums, and Carla is just a
(22:08):
master at that, as is BruceGreenwood, as is like that entire cast,
really, so I wanted to ask. Obviously, the House the Fall
of the House of Usher to alarge extent, is about a family business,
and you and your brother have establishedyour own family business at this point,
(22:30):
the two of you working together onthese various creative series, and I
just wanted to know what it's likeworking with your brother as the executive producer.
Does you know how how is thatrelationship? I mean, it seems
like it's working out great, butI mean I just am curious, you
know how that sort of works.Sure, you know, it's exactly what
(22:52):
you'd expect it to be. Ifyou ever you know, if you've ever
had a sibling and that's within fouryears of you that you've decided to work
very closely with, it's exactly thatdynamic. Mike's fantastic. The business is
really you know, it's his andTrevor Macy's. They are partners over it.
Intrepid Technically, I'm just a contractor. They bring me in to work
(23:15):
on these projects, but I'm notactually a part of Intrepid Entertainment. I've
had a great time working on thesethings. Inevitably, you're going to come
to moments where you forget to takeoff your sibling hats when you go into
the room. And that can beinteresting because yeah, you know, there
were times, you know, tenyears ago when we would have much more
(23:36):
spirited debates about our opinions on things. And the thing with film is that
there's in television there's really not timefor that. Everything is under a ridiculous
time constraint. So a lot ofthe moments where you might be tempted to
say, you know, throw outsome complete curve ball that you know might
lead to brilliance or might fall onits face if the room is already cooking,
(23:56):
if you know your showrunner is happyand trucking along, you really don't
want to be the person to throwsand into the gears. So what I
would say is when it comes toworking in a family dynamic that way,
you do have to put the familypart aside and kind of look at it
as a chain of command thing.Well, writers' rooms are very egalitarian,
and that anyone below showrunner, forthe most part, in a good room,
(24:19):
has an equal voice. When theshowrunner speaks and says we're moving on,
you're moving on, and that isnot the time to be like yo,
brother, This is what you know. So that's the challenge is learning
how not to be a sibling.Yeah, I can't imagine doing that with
my sister, but I have anotherpodcast. I brought her on for an
(24:41):
episode, and that was about allthe two of us were going to be
able to collaborate on. Was aforty minute retelling of our funny moments of
our childhood, none of the unfunnymoments of our childhood. So aside from
that moment between Verna and Madeline,did you have another favorite part of that
(25:04):
episode or something in particular that youpitched, Because this is also news to
me, like, oh yeah,you're in there pitching these ideas also about
what happens in each episode, soyou know, with a lot of the
pitching in the way this works,you know, you get your ideas and
they are but again, I wantto stress that it's a very collaborative process
(25:25):
on these episodes, so a lotof them are just kind of at this
point because man, it's been along time. It's been like over a
year since we were in that room, and I've had one between and my
mind, just like any theater person, tends the purge the show from last
year to make room for the showthis year, Like at this point,
a lot of it's chop suey tome, like I'm like, God,
did I pitch that? Who pitchedthat? It gets kind of funny that
(25:48):
way. There's interesting parts of it, like the entire Juno storyline, for
instance, didn't exist when the draftswere written for the Writer's Room. The
entire Juno character was not introduced untilafter the scripts had already been gone.
That had already gone in the Writer'sRoom had been dissolved. So there are
some radical changes to these things thatI was seeing for the first time when
(26:10):
I was watching the episode, andI was like, oh man, I'm
so glad that this Juno tract gotwritten because they get to use Ruth cod
and Ruth is an exceptional human beingas well as an actor, and it's
always a joy to see Ruth work. Another bit that I think at least
I did the dialogue for and themajority of it stayed in would be the
early Annabelle Lee stuff and so youngDupan and you know Freddie, and just
(26:37):
the having that line of asking andmaking sure that they'd be taken care of,
and having that sort of link betweenDupin and Annabell Lee, which then
pays off in the next episode ofwhy did Dupan ever trust Roderick? And
it's because he trusted Annabel And thatwas a nice little exchange where I think
that trust was established very elegantly andvery quickly, concisely economically. And that's
(26:59):
what you want, really is,is you want these, you know,
four or five line exchanges that spellout entire character arcs if you can.
And I just think that Katie Parkeris so essential to this show, and
the same way that Leonore is essentialto this show, and that they are
the heart of this thing there.They are the people that we can hang
our hats on along with Juno andyeah, Parker and I go back a
(27:22):
very long way with Mike, youknow, way before, way before hill
House and Oculus, and you know, back when we were all just scrounging
and scrambling for whatever we could get, and to see Katie Parker go from
Absentia, which was shot in mybrother's apartment. The DP was our brother
in law, and you know thetunnel is adjacent to that apartment. We
(27:47):
all worked for nothing, you know, for the love of the thing.
We had one contract on that wegot Doug Jones for a day, and
I love Doug Jones. He's incredibleand he was so kind wow to work
on that piece. But yeah,you know, you know, just to
see to see Parker go from absentiato the absolute beating heart of something like
this as Annabell Lee has been extremelygratifying. I kind of felt like Parker
(28:10):
doesn't always get the props that shedeserves for the heart that she brings to
these roles, And wow, didshe bring it this time. And I
think it's really going to be appreciated, and I hope that it just buttresses
her higher and higher. I completelyagree with you, and I think it's
so clever the way the Animal Leepoem is used to sort of help us
(28:32):
really understand how important she was andwhat a loss to Roderick she is that
she's gone. And you know,because without that poem, a lot of
her lines are basically like basically eitherbeing like, what do you mean?
Or Hey, this is not agood idea. And yet the poem really
(28:52):
allows us to understand that she's theconscience of the show in a lot of
ways without her having to do there'snot a tremendous amount of exposition about how
that happened. It's just it's rightthere and how meaningful she is through that
poem, and I just was.I was struck by how clever that is
that you're able to put that inthere. And I have a new emotional
(29:17):
attachment to the poem as a resultof the show that I knew because I
knew the poem before, but nowI can connect it more specifically because I
see how Roderick relates to her throughthat same poetry. Absolutely, And I'm
almost sorry I brought it up becauseI know that's from the next episode,
and I don't want you guys toget spoilery. Should I feel comfortable doing
(29:37):
that? Are you guys doing spoilers? Or how we're not doing spoilers?
Actually you'll be okay, okay,Yeah, So that's from that's from eight.
So everyone forget that. You heardall of that. Annabel is going
to be fine. Everyone's going tobe fine. Well, And actually,
what you were saying about the heart, you know the episode you said that
about Annabel, you said that aboutJuna, and you know we feel that
(30:00):
about Leonor and unfortunately those those twopeople are yeah, not treated super well
in the show. So it's atragedy. That's that's it, right,
is when you have powerful people withcompromised senses of right and wrong and then
you put good people into that mix, the good people are going to get
trampled every time. And that isone of the crushing truths of life that
(30:25):
keeps me up at night, thatmakes me scared to go outside that you
know, it's it's one of thosethings that makes me sad every day,
and not just sad, but scared. Yeah, because it seems like,
you know, more and more they'rethe powerful people don't have to outnumber the
good people anymore. You know,you could argue that in this show,
the like, there's so many douchesin this show, so many horrible,
(30:47):
horrible people that yeah, you know, this minority of good people will get
run over. But then again,if you look at it, you know,
you sort of back up from thatand back up from the trees and
look at the forest, and youknow you'll get more of that in next
episode about ruining anything, rob Rick, one person managed to trample the world.
(31:07):
And that's what I see more andmore in reality is a small handful
of narcissists and sociopaths and or justpeople who like money. You know,
they don't necessarily need to fall intoa narcissistic sociopath. They could feel just
awful about what they're doing, butthey'll justify it and do it anyway.
I just see that, you know, small handful of people sort of trampling
(31:29):
the world and dredging up the worstaspects of humanity in their wake. It's
it's depressing to see. But Ithink it's why shows like this are cathartic
to write on and maybe cathartic towatch. It's because, at least in
this show there's some sense of justice. I don't think we get that very
much in life. I don't thinkmany of us are lucky enough to believe
(31:51):
in a verna you know who goesaround, yeah, basically balancing the scales.
I want to talk about the flipside of that, what you're just
talking about for a second, whichis the death of Freddie, which is
gruesome and I would go so faras to say probably the most difficult death
for me personally to watch on theshow, because it seems to be the
(32:16):
one that is the most deliberate,It's the one with the most intention behind
it, and it really feels likeFerna really sort of settles in and you
know, really grabs a popcorn andis like, I'm gonna enjoy every second
of this. And I just wantedto talk about the moral compass of the
(32:39):
show and the come up it's forFreddie. There's something about how he dies
that it's not like it's not likehe just dies. He like he like
really dies, like he is absolutelythrown on all sides out of this world.
When you were putting that together whereyou sort of was there a part
(33:00):
of you where you're really indulging thatsort of vengeance side that thing that's like,
I'm gonna use all of my frustrationwith these narcissists and sociopaths, and
I'm gonna really I'm gonna sit nextto Freddy and watch him go as ugly
as possible. You know. Ithink we always we always knew that he
(33:20):
was gonna be Pitt in the Pendulum. We always knew that was coming,
and then it was almost reverse engineeredthat way, so we knew he was
gonna be Pitt in the Pendulum.We knew he was. He's the penultimate
death just because they die you know, in reverse order to you know,
when they were introduced into the world, so him being the oldest, he'd
last the longest. And yeah,you know, we did our best to
humanize him. We show him asa child quite a few a few times
(33:43):
in that episode to sort of giveyou something to latch onto. But yeah,
I think as a writer's room,once we got to agreeing that he
was going to rip out Maury's teethwith a pair of flyers, we gave
up trying to make him sympathetic,trying to make him likable through in the
towel and like, you know,fuck this guy. It was so yeah,
(34:04):
you know, there's an aspect toit of it. But you know,
the interesting thing about Freddy is hestarts out, you know, in
the early episodes as such a youknow, so someone who really bends in
the wind, right, like someonewho seems to really want to do right
by his family but just can't makeit happen. You know. Sure,
there's an inferiority complex mixed in therethat's very ugly to watch even from the
(34:25):
start, but there's something in therethat wants to be a people pleaser.
By the end of it, he'sonly trying to please a some kind of
grandiose vision of himself. So yeah, I think I think you to your
question, there's absolutely Catharsis there.When I was writing that scene, I
think I had stopped. I hadstopped with Verna when she said, you
(34:49):
know, you've always been afraid ofwhat's coming around the corner. We don't
have to wait anymore. I'm here. I'm finally here, which is doom,
because I've always thought that, youknow, there was some sense of
maybe doom hanging over these kids becausethey were always gonna die. Really a
supernatural po thing, and that sortof sense of lingering dread that you don't
know what it is is very poAnd I was like, oh, it's
Verna. Verna has been hovering overhim his whole life, and this is
(35:10):
it. She's finally here. It'shis moment. He's going to die,
and he can have some peace inthat. And then after a turn of
the draft, I get the newone back and it kept going where Mike
had written in that. Verna waslike, eh, no, I'm gonna
ly down beside you and just sayalso, I totally get that you are
mistreated and fuck you. It's likethat's pretty perfect. So yeah, you
(35:30):
know, it's sort of this wonderfulthing where I had stopped just shy of
that, thinking it might be overthe line, and then the draft that
I got back, I was like, nope, no, no, no,
no, that's perfectly within bounds.And I was like, cool,
all right, go for it.Man oh man. Yeah, that death
scene is very difficult to watch,but it's probably the most deserved death in
(35:52):
the show totally, you know.And I have in my note here to
ask you about his Freddy's character arc, because I mean, he's kind of
pathetic. He's kind of weasley.You see him, like just get more
evil and get kind of drunk withhis new power, which is barely power,
(36:12):
because no one likes him. Imean, his siblings don't like him.
They call him, you know,Frederick and you know so and he
knows it. He knows he's notliked. And that moment when he's just
pulled out Maury's teeth and he putshim down on the tin and he's talking
to whoever he's talking to on thephone, and he goes, if you
don't do this, and he looksat the tin and he's like, I'm
(36:34):
gonna pull your teeth. Though withappliers, and he's so proud of himself,
and it's it's just like, ugh, you just like, really,
if you didn't hate him enough,you hate him even more because he's so
self satisfied. Absolutely, I thinkat that point he's he thinks that he's
(36:57):
become the thing his father always wantedhim to be, and he's done it
through that act that he described of. You know, basically, my father
used to say that in order tomaintain control and leadership, you don't have
to be consistently cruel. You justhave to strike one very decisive blow once,
but it's got to be big.And I think Freddy was a person
who was never willing to strike thatblow. And then everything with Maury,
(37:22):
I'm not going to say enabled himto do that. That's the wrong phrasing.
He used everything with Maury in orderto talk himself into being okay with
striking a blow that he probably wantedto strike to anybody for a very long
time and just you know, luckilyfor the world, didn't have the spine
to do it, striking it onMaury, a person who is you know,
(37:43):
a loved one and incapacitated. Yeah, you know, it is the
most repugnantly easy target that Freddy couldhave picked, and for him to do
that and then take pride in it, thinking that you know that I have
made a big step what I havejust done. Right, Yeah, it's
absolutely repulsive. But at the sametime, you know, there's a version
(38:07):
of Roderick that would probably high fivehim for doing it. It's weird.
Yeah, you know, all thekids are doomed by Roderick, not just
because of the deal that Roderick made, but because of who Roderick was and
how he raised or ignored them.And yeah, you know, Freddie's no
different. They're all victims of thesame person. But that does not excuse
(38:28):
any of the ways in which they'vevictimized other people. Okay, I had
a thing that with Stacy and Ihave been we've been going through each one
of these shows, and I hadthis idea around episode three, and I
want to pitch it to you inthe hopes that you might pitch it to
your brother. In episode three,that lemon speech absolutely knocked me out,
(38:50):
Like I was like, this isamazing. And there's another monologue that comes
like two minutes later. And thenwith every single episode there seems to be
one super killer monologue in every singleone of these shows. And I was
saying to Stacy, I believe MikeFlanagan has an incredible play in him somewhere,
(39:12):
And I know he's probably making muchmore money working in film and television
and it's probably a whole lot easier, But I just want to beg him
to write a play for the stage, just because I think he's got some
incredibly theatrical writing and like it's kindof a it's kind of perfect for like
the stage. So I is thereany odds we could get him to do
(39:34):
this? Honestly, sure, ifyou poke him hard enough, I think
he could. He could write aplay. And yeah, you know,
I think you'd probably be happy toand just beout finding the right time.
I mean, right now, Ican barely get him, you know,
to write an email. Less towrite a play, ed, I'd be
I'd be very impressed. But ifyou can get him just to write back
an email that's more than a sentence, I'm also impressed by that too,
(39:57):
So it's yeah, it's more ofa time constraint, you know. I'm
sure that he'd like to split himselfinto a million different you know, proxies,
like Doctor Manhattan but just can't doit. But yeah, he would
write a lovely stage play, I'msure, and maybe one of these days
he will. I'm all for it. Well, I have one more question.
It's this thing about I might bewrong, but you're really focused on
(40:22):
you know, how Roderick doomed everyoneright, and he's the worst sociopath of
all. And yet is it Roderickor is it Madeleine? Because I feel
like the whole thing with Dupon,I mean, I believed it was gonna
be he was gonna do the rightthing. So am I wrong? Was
(40:43):
he never going to do the rightthing? Or did Madeline convince him to
do what he did? Like,I'm just curious, like how you as
the writer in vision that I yeah, you know, in the writer's room
we talked a lot about you know, Madeline's is definitely the brains of the
operation between the two of them fromchildhood on. I think when it comes
(41:04):
to Roderick and Madeleine, you kindof can't look at them as separate entities.
They kind of go together. Idon't think either of them would have
turned out as horribly as they didif the other one didn't exist. There
was something about that insular bond betweenthe two of them that made that relationship
more important than any other one thatattached itself to them throughout the show and
throughout their lives. I suppose,so just having that kind of you know,
(41:27):
diad, just the two of themlinked that strongly to the detriment of
everyone around them. Yeah, Idefinitely think that Madeline, you know,
ten to tend to be the rudder, but he was always an engine with
her. You know, he wouldhe'd go, you know, he'd keep
the boat moving and she would steer. Jamie, it's been so incredible to
talk to you. We are sograteful for you sharing your time and your
(41:51):
perspective with us this it's just reallyilluminating, and I just want to say
again, congratulations. It's a reallyincredible series, and your episode in particular
is somehow incredibly beautiful and harrowing andlike amazing all in one sort of thing.
It's like, it's really an impressiveachievement. So congratulations to you on
(42:15):
that and thank you for being withus. Hey, thank you so much.
You know, there's a thrill towrite for that episode, and you
know, just speaking for the entireteam of people who brought it to life.
It's very humbling to hear that youconnected with it, and we're all
very grateful to you for watching it, and I can't wait to hear your
thoughts on the next episode, whichwas written by not only Mike, but
(42:37):
our staff writer, who was theincredible Healey Sanchez, who I would love
to give a shout out to hereright now, just because they're an incredible
talent and we're so wonderful in theroom and couldn't be more impressed and proud
by the work that they accomplished.Awesome. Yeah, we'll be interviewing her
on the next episode. Please sendmy absolute best and congratulate them for me.
(42:59):
We will thank you, Thank youso much, Jamie. It was
so fun to talk to you.Wow, wasn't that great. I really
enjoyed talking to Jamie about that wholeepisode. He and his brother have really
(43:21):
locked onto something pretty amazing, andI'm so thrilled for all of the Mike
Flanagan fans out there that you knowthat they've been able to have the opportunity
to bring all of these great seriesand especially this series for everybody to see.
So I really thought it was veryinteresting you know, Jamie stress that
they they all were part of everyepisode. You know, it was a
(43:44):
very collaborative process. But also thathe pitched certain ideas. He pitched the
idea of the poem that Verna saidin this episode, and he did this
little piece of dialogue that Annabelle Leedid and we just keep learning more and
more about this process. It's reallyfascinating, Lindsey, it is fascinating.
(44:06):
And I think that is the thingthat I continue to be really amazed by
is even though this is a MikeFlanagan produced show, it's clearly a full
team effort, and that everyone onthis show, whether it's the writing team
or the production team, or theactors or the director, cinematographer, they're
(44:30):
all working really well together to makethis kind of thing happen. And sometimes
film and TV can be viewed assort of like an Awe tour sort of
art form, whether there's one personwho's driving the whole thing. But in
this case, it seems that Mikeflangan in addition to having a lot of
really great ideas, this also seemsto be a really terrific collaborator to work
(44:52):
with, which I think brings outthe best in everybody who works for him,
and you had that sweet little momentat the start of the episode that
you had actually met Jamie before.I had no memory of that what's over,
But I'm so excited about that.I can't tell you. It's so
great. I So what he's talkingabout is I taught for thirteen years at
(45:15):
a summer program at Northwestern University calledthe National High School Institute, which is
nicknamed the Cher Program. And Ithink the last year that I was there,
he was. He was also thereat that time, and it was
just great to reconnect with him asa high schooler. He was a faculty
associate. He would have been incollege at that point, so he would
(45:38):
have he was uh okay, he'ssort of like a junior counselor type of
person in that thing. But it'sso great to see him again, and
I'm so thrilled for his success.Like I'm you know, the part where
he was like a struggling actor workingand then decided like, oh, I'm
(45:58):
going to give it up and gointo you know, being a heart technician
and then which is not a dishonorablething certainly. I mean, that's really
incredible. But the part where hemanaged to find a pursuit that really suited
his creative impulses and his passions.Like, that's such an awesome story,
Like that's a great ending to that, And he had a part. I
(46:20):
forgot to ask him what party playedin Hillhouse and then he was able to
offer his expertise in the Telltale Heartepisode. So that's with the heart mesh.
That's really that was great to hearthat. Yeah, man, I
guarantee you they're not getting that onYellowstone. There's nobody on that writing team
who's like, guys, I gota whole background and heart technician. So
(46:42):
we're all set. That's a verygood side hobby to have. Yeah,
no kidding, no kidding. Sothat's our time is just about up,
Lindsay, We're gonna have to stop, but I will see you next week
when we interview Keelee Sanchez, whowas one of the main writers in episode
(47:06):
eight. And you should all knowthat episode eight will not even be our
final episode. We're going to havea bonus episode nine. More on that
next time, but we will seeyou next week for Psychoanalyzing the Fall of
the House of Usher. Thanks forjoining us, See you later, Bye
bye. Psychoanalyzing the Fall of theHouse of Usher is a production of straw
(47:32):
Hutmedia. Your hosts are Stacy andI and Lindsay Jones. Your producer is
Maggie Bowles. Editing and sound designby Daniel Ferrera, Theme music by Adrian
Berenger with additional music from Marco Martiniand Artie Son. Subscribe, rate and
review, and come back for newepisodes every Friday, and tell us what
(47:52):
should we psychoanalyze next. Let usknow by emailing us at Psychoanalyzing at straw
hutmedia dot com. See you nextweek. It him to the cottag
Straw Hut Media. Hi, I'mStacy Nye. Hi, I'm Lindsay Jones.
Welcome to episode seven of Psychoanalyzing theFall of the House of Usher.
We have a great episode for youtoday. We interview Jamie Flanagan. He
is the writer of episode seven andhe is going to give us all of
(00:25):
the dirt behind this gruesome episode,The Pit and the Pendulum, So stay
tuned for our show. Our sessionbegins now. Okay, here is the
(00:45):
recap of episode seven, The Pitand the Pendulum. Spoiler warning. If
you haven't watched the episode, godo that right now and come back and
listen to us. So four majorplot points in this episode. What happened
between Dupon and Roderick, Juno,Freddy's demise, and the deal with Verna.
(01:07):
What happened between Dupon and Roderick isthat despite all of the preparation for
Roderick's testimony against Fortunado, Roderick actuallystabs Dupon in the back at the hearing,
saying that not only did he signevery document that was actually forged,
he accuses Dupon of harassing him.It's excruciating to watch, honestly, Briefly,
(01:30):
a little note about Juno. Shewants to get off of Ligadon.
She asks the doctor if she cando that. Roderick is not supportive.
It's a pr nightmare, he says, and it will take her three years
because it is in fact quite addictive. Frederick's demise, what a fucker he
is, and it is worth everyminute of what he gets. He has
(01:55):
put wedding pictures all over his room. With Maury, she looks bad.
Her bandages haven't been changed since shegot home, and they look bloody and
infected and awful. She gets anotherdose of nightshade paralytic while Freddie tells her
about how he was initially attracted toher smile and so he then uses that
(02:19):
piece of information against her and proceedsto remove all of her teeth with appliers.
It is gruesome and horrifying. Whenhe's done with that task, he
goes to the building where Perry diedto oversee its wreckage. But first he
has to be a prick and goinside, snort some coke and take a
pee on the floor. When suddenlyhe falls down, we learn that he
(02:45):
has accidentally taken the night shade paralyticthat he had been giving Maury instead of
coke, and so by the timeVerna shows up, he's paralyzed laying on
the ground. Verna picks up hiswalkie talkie and using Maddy's voice, gives
the awe clear on the wrecking balland lays down next to him to watch
(03:06):
him die. The steel ball breaksinto the building, triggering things start falling
all around Freddy, including an anvilthat gradually gets lower and lower as it
swings back and forth. Eventually itgets so close it starts slicing into his
stomach, and the whole roof comesdown on top of him, with the
(03:27):
anvil right there. While that washappening, Leonor finally breaks down the door
to her mother's room, and,horrified by what she's found, calls the
police. Lastly, the deal withVerna. Madeleine returns to the childhood house
to talk to Verna, trying torenegotiate their deal, which we still don't
know what that is, but Vernasays no. Madeleine finds Roderick in the
(03:51):
basement, staring at that brick wallagain. She tells him that Freddy is
dead, reminds him of the dealwith Verna, and convinces him to kill
himself. He swallows an entire bottleof ligadone and soon is laying dead on
the ground. But no no,Verna shows up, touches him on the
cheek and tells him she can't lethim go out so easy. End of
(04:15):
episode. Man, this is reallythe episode where we start to truly understand
the depth of Verna's powers. Like, up till now, Verna shows up
a lot of places like, oh, coincidentally, I happen to turn into
an aporn. Oh coincidentally, Ihappen to be here as this horrible thing
(04:40):
happened. But in this particular episode, Verna is more sort of hands on,
if you will, in terms ofcontrolling people's fates. I mean,
when she assumes Freddie's voice and thewalkie talkie to begin the demolition of the
Big the big room where they youknow they're the acid Orgie went as we
now know it, you know she'sAnd also the part where she's like,
(05:03):
let me lay down to you,next to you, buddy, and let's
watch this thing slowly swing over andover and into you. You can sort
of tell. With the some ofthe other ones, you're not sure how
Verna how much Verna can control thisor how much Verna is experiencing it or
enjoying it. Verna is an activeparticipant in the death of Freddy and really
(05:29):
seems like she's been waiting for thisone. She's she's been living for this
one. Yeah. I think asmuch as she's not evil, I don't
think she's not spiteful like you knowthese other people she's she's maybe not a
sociopath. I don't know, butyou definitely do not want to be on
Herd's side. No, right,I mean she will make it bad for
(05:54):
you, man. Yeah, Ithink she's the definition of bad for you.
Basically. If Verna shows up,run absolutely absolutely so. Let's talk
to the person who wrote this outrageouslygruesome episode, Jamie Flanagan. We are
so excited to welcome Janie Flanagan,who is a Bram Stoker Award winning writer
(06:18):
and actor. His television writing creditsinclude Netflix's Haunting a Blind Maner, Midnight
Mass, The Midnight Club, TheFall of the House of Usher, and
AMC Shutters Creep Show. He alsohas significant stage credits in Columbiness, which
was at New York Theater Workshop,where he received a Drama League nomination,
(06:39):
as well as productions with Woollie MammonthTheater Company in DC, the Studio Theater
in DC, Arena Stage, EverymanTheater Theater, Jay Roundhouse Theater, and
Rep Stage. We are super excitedto have him with us today. Jamie,
Welcome to the show. Okay,Jamie, you were saying something just
(07:01):
before we came on the air whichI am really excited about, and I
don't want to drag it out fortoo long, but you and I apparently
we know each other from before,which I did not remember. Is that
true? Yeah, yeah, weknow each other from the Cherubs program at
Northwestern the Theater program. I wasa faculty associate in around two thousand and
four, two thousand and five,I think I taught like a class for
(07:24):
pinter pauses, which was really notthe best choice because of a very static
and stationary thing to try to teachhigh school shoot years. And then you
directed Ubahwah that year, which wasabsolutely delightful and one of the best mountings
of that show that I've ever seen. So kudos to you. You've stuck
with me since then, and yeah, wow, thank you so much.
(07:46):
Oh, it's a pleasure. It'sgreat to see again. It's great to
see you as well. I'm absolutelyfloored by this. And it's funny because
the first question that I was goingto ask you, of course, is
about your theater experience already writing fortheater? Is that true? Not so
much writing for theater. I wasa performance major, and then I was
(08:07):
an equity actor for about fifteen years, and then then I did a complete
left turn and started doing ultrasound,cardiac ultrasound for about six years. Then
I became a screenwriter and just usedeverything I learned from theater, which is
one of the lines that I wouldlike to say and put them on the
page. Wow. It made fora great education being on stage and when
(08:28):
it comes to being a writer,Wow, what an interesting history. Can
you talk us how you went fromactored ultrasound cardiac tectonis into horror writer?
Absolutely? Yeah, So I wasin my I was in my thirties,
and for the equity actor route,I pretty much just done regional theater.
I did like one off Broadway playcalled Columbiness, which is about the Columbine
(08:50):
shootings. I remember that play,and i'd done that actually in a couple
of places, from Juno, Alaskato New York Theater Workshop and it began
at Roundhouse Theater and in Maryland.And yeah, you know, I'd always
tended bar waited tables, taught adjunctyou know, sold those vector cutco knives,
whatever I had to do to survive, and coming into my thirties,
(09:13):
I just wanted something more stable,or so I thought. So I started
taking gen ed's for medical just ata community college while I was still acting,
And I took a creative writing coursethere, which was away for me
to be creative while I was takingall these medical courses. And long story
short, while I was doing this, my brother had been in Los Angeles
(09:35):
just you know, busting his assfor at least a decade, and I
would still pop out there and doindie films with him, like Ibsenia was
one that we did way back inthe day that probably I would I would
say that that's the one that gothim on the map, that got him
the cloud to then go do Oculusand wow. About the time that I
was starting to go crazy as aecho cardiographer, he had you know,
(10:00):
kind of had his success with Hillhouseand I'd played a small role in that
and had a really good time init. And then he was on the
blind manner and I was like,hey, you know, here are two
scripts I've kind of written on myown steam. Could you show them to
you a producing partner, and ifthey're any good, you know, I'd
love to be in a writer's room. So they brought me in as a
staff writer on that one, andthey kept me around because I haven't shot
(10:20):
the bed well enough yet, Isuppose, but yeah, they've they've kept
me on ever since and it's beena true delight and a you know,
complete complete change of lifestyle. Andit's a very rewarding career. It's a
really strange time to be in it, especially post strike, because the entire
industry is contracting. Yeah, andwith the absolutely vital changes that have been
(10:43):
made to writers' contracts plus the contraction, it just means there's going to be
a lot less people writing in thefield, which means that you know,
of course, I'm looking at allthe old survival jobs that I used to
look at. And that's the thingabout below creator level screenwriters is they're always
just a few months away from,you know, having to jump right back
onto whatever survival job they had before. And you know that that kind of
(11:03):
puts it right in the wheelhouse ofwhat it's like to be any kind of
a creator in theater or music.It's it's the same gig economy at the
end of the day. So truethat we would very much like it to
be more sustainable, and a lotof the changes made in this in this,
in these new contracts should make thatmore sustainable. It's still, especially
for people below the level of say, you know, executive producer, it's
(11:26):
still really hard to make a careerout of it. Yeah, well,
that's that's quite an interesting progression.And I'm slightly surprised hearing that history that
you didn't write the episode with Victoryin the Telltale Heart. But I did
actually suggest the technology for that one. Nice it did. It had been
(11:50):
something that I'd read up on yearsago. Yeah, the the heart mesh
that was used on a rabbit,and they said this could make the heart
beat indefinitely. That was something thatI pitched in the writer's room and then
we all ran with it. Thefunny thing is is that when it comes
to episode execution, sure there's nameson it, but when it comes to
the generation of all of these stories, those are broken as a group.
(12:11):
In a room together, so everyepisode has all of us working on it
to beat out every single beat thathappens in the episode, every emotional turn,
every character moment is agreed on beforehand. So by the time you actually
get an episode assignment in their handof the script, you have a complete
outline of where things are going thatare based entirely on the collective. But
how lucky are they to have anultrasound technician on staff who can give them
(12:35):
all of the heart information they needfor that episode. That's amazing. Absolutely,
That's the goal too, is diversifyyour writer's room with people from very
different walks of life, so hopefullywhen you run into characters, you have
somebody in the room who has somethingnear that experience that can throw in something
useful. And we had just awealth of interesting people in that room,
(12:56):
from Rebecca Klingle to Danny Parker toMattchjohnsen to Justina Ireland. An amazing group
of writers, and of course withMike at the Helm, you kind of
can't go wrong. I just wantto say, I'm a psychologist. I
don't know if you have a psychologistin the room, but I want to
throw my hat in there. Wow, but you're pitching yourself right now.
(13:16):
Wow. Okay, you know everyonecan hear maybe Michael here, But we
actually just spoke to Beca. Ohdid you yay? Yeah, And one
of the things she told us isthat Mike he hands out the episode assignment
because he sees something of the characterin that particular writer. Didn't she say
(13:41):
that? Lindsay, yeah, thatthe writer matches that character in some way?
Right, So how did you possiblypiss off your brother enough to get
a signed Yes? Oh, man, I mean the things that I do
to piss off my brother are legions, so there's really not one that you
could put that on. But Iwould have to say that I think it
(14:05):
came down to I had a lotof thoughts in terms of actually the Madeline
Verna scene in that one, Ipitched it pretty passionately in the room,
and I went really gung ho forCity in the Sea, the poem that
Verna recites to Madeline. Yeah,it can be tricky to get producers to
(14:26):
sign off on doing an entire poemduring an episode. Even in a show
about Edgar Allan Poe, It's veryhard to get them to agree to do
that. So, yeah, youknow, I was really really passionate about
that, and I was just gladthat, you know, Mike let me
take my shot at that and turningit into kind of a montage and you
know, sort of executing on thepage how I thought the editing might work
(14:48):
in order to make that resonant andto tie it thematically to everything that was
going on in all of the substoriesand subplots. For me, that poem
ties the whole show together. Definitely, that whole episode. It sort of
hinges on it, that idea ofthis horrific Babylon, like you know,
the city built of the dead,eventually having Hell rise up to greet it
(15:11):
even though it's already technically drowned.It's just a crazy, awful, dreadful
poem and I love it to pieces. That's totally my speed. I wanted
to ask about the use of poetryin the show, because the show is
really exceptional in its use of poselanguage and the use of his material.
(15:31):
I mean, like, you guyscould have just written a really scary show
and that would have satisfied a lotof people, but you it's like when
you go to a restaurant that's betterthan it has to be based around this
round. You guys made this showbetter than it needed to be, and
I think the poetry is such anintegral element of that. Can you talk
a little bit about the process ofhow you integrated Poe's works into the script?
(15:56):
You know, what was that processlike of trying to figure out this
is where we put the pole.A lot of the challenge of it was
is, you know, of coursewe have the pilot as the you know,
the proof of concept and also somewhatthe roadmap. It promises you that
all these kids are going to die, and then we just really had to
figure out which Poe tail we're goingto attach to each sibling. In order
(16:18):
to do that, we man itwas a long conversation that stretched out for
a very long time of being like, all right, black Cat goes here,
Pitt in the Pendulum goes there,Goldbug goes here. And the funny
thing is is that even the onesthat you know we give a title like
say, Pitt in the Pendulum,Pitt in the Pendulum, this episode that
does end with the Pendulum is farmore City in the Sea and Berenice and
(16:41):
Mets. And I'm going to pronounceit wrong because I always do Metzengerstein in
terms of poe Works, So Metzengersteinis where Frederick gets his name. He's
the you know, the heir apparentin that particular story who ends up being
a complete tyrant and then is youknow, rides off on sort of flaming
horse of his felled rifle into thenight, never to be seen again.
(17:04):
And that's sort of you know,Frederick's hubris, which he definitely has and
definitely sort of surfaces out of thatcharacter by this episode. On top of
that, you have Barnice, whichis all about a betrothed you know,
would be a husband who cares somuch about this his sort of failing physically
failing and ailing cousin who he's goingto marry, that it becomes obsessed with
(17:27):
her. And when she starts towither away, she smiles this smile,
and it embeds itself in his brain. He has these sort of day dreams
about it, and then eventually hewakes up from one of those day dreams
and it turns out he's ripped outall of her teeth and put them in
a tin on his dresser. Soit's sort of like, you know,
how do you decide which story goeswhere honestly, it's kind of a grab
(17:48):
bag, and then it becomes Domino's. You're like, well, if this
one is killed by black Cat,then that sets up this If Maury is
bedbound and the wife, we're like, oh, okay, there's a kind
of a Baronice thing going on there. Should we do the teeth And we're
like, oh my god, that'shorrible, and okay, we should definitely
do it. If that's our reactionin the room, is that's that terrible,
then we should absolutely go there.And we're like, it makes Freddy
(18:10):
unforgivable, but what are you gonnado? It's po you know, it's
a rough, rough world, soyeah, you know, it's interesting.
So many of these stories have otherworks pulled into them, from Angel of
the Odd, you know, asprobably the most obscure, to a lot
more of the popular ones that peopleknow that are just kind of snuck in
there or actually serve as better architecturethan the title of each episode, which
(18:33):
is definitely the case with Pitting thePendulum, which again I think is Barnice
meets metsa Anger Steining. It's weird, but there it is. And City
in the Sea is just kind ofthrown in there because of I felt like
it was a keystone. And Iwas very lucky that after the draft went
in people agreed with me, sobecause you know, that can always backfire,
(18:56):
and I lucked out this time.I didn't, you know, the
gun didn't go off in my ownface. A good moment. It's a
beautiful moment in the show. It'sreally beautiful. Thank you. Yeah,
it's you know, And I loveMadelin's reaction. Yes, I think it's
important that she didn't quite get itthat. You know, there's there's a
blind spot that people in power have. Yet when someone speaks something to them
(19:18):
that's an analogyman to clarify something,they are wilfully blind to it because in
order to acknowledge it, that haveto acknowledge their part in something that terrible.
And nobody wants to be the badguy, especially the bad guy.
I think Freddy likes being the badguy, though I think he gets there.
I think it's it's this, it'sthis pride and this wanting to live
(19:42):
up to, you know, thissort of shape that his father had cut
out for him from the word gothat he never quite fit into. And
yeah, he loses himself in there. You know, I think it's the
next episode says that that those thetwo kids basically died when they were kids,
drowned in money, and by thetime they made it to Roderick they
(20:03):
were different people. And I've alwaysreally liked that the way that that was
put it feels very true for Frederickfor sure. And yeah, Carla Gagina
does the poem beautifully, and youknow, the cinematography and Feminiari is just
incredible, and you know, there'sjust there's so much there that works in
(20:23):
unison and in sync. And Ithink Feminiari directed that episode and he's he's
a wonderful just collaborator and human beingand to see him sort of transition from
cinematographer to director has been really exciting. I mean, Carla is amazing,
and her performance is you know,it's not quite as wild and crazy as
(20:44):
some of the other ones, butit's got this like subtle depth to it
that you can actually like her eventhough she's you know, doing these these
terrible things, and you really youfeel even some like empathy for her.
You're kind of rooting for her,and and just she's gorgeous and captivating.
(21:06):
The whole time. I agree wholeheartedly. She's the first time I saw her
was in Suddenly last summer on Broadway, and she was incredible and that was
ages ago, just ages and agesand ages. So when Mike brought her
in to do Hillhouse, I prettymuch freaked out. I was like,
Oh my gosh, that's amazing.And ever since, you know, oh,
(21:27):
actually I think that was that.The first thing he used her in
was Gerald's Game. It might havebeen Gerald's Game, but yeah, you
know again, it's just an incredibleperformance in both of those She's she's just
been such a wonderful, wonderful presence. And when actors elevate what's on the
page that well, I will sayit makes our job as writers easy.
(21:48):
It just makes it far more rewardingto know that you don't have to put
every line of subtext into a monologue. That these actors will pick up what's
on the page and what isn't andwhat is between the lines and find a
way to make that breathe and live. That's essential, I think, too,
good storytelling when it comes to thesemediums, and Carla is just a
(22:08):
master at that, as is BruceGreenwood, as is like that entire cast,
really, so I wanted to ask. Obviously, the House the Fall
of the House of Usher to alarge extent, is about a family business,
and you and your brother have establishedyour own family business at this point,
(22:30):
the two of you working together onthese various creative series, and I
just wanted to know what it's likeworking with your brother as the executive producer.
Does you know how how is thatrelationship? I mean, it seems
like it's working out great, butI mean I just am curious, you
know how that sort of works.Sure, you know, it's exactly what
(22:52):
you'd expect it to be. Ifyou ever you know, if you've ever
had a sibling and that's within fouryears of you that you've decided to work
very closely with, it's exactly thatdynamic. Mike's fantastic. The business is
really you know, it's his andTrevor Macy's. They are partners over it.
Intrepid Technically, I'm just a contractor. They bring me in to work
(23:15):
on these projects, but I'm notactually a part of Intrepid Entertainment. I've
had a great time working on thesethings. Inevitably, you're going to come
to moments where you forget to takeoff your sibling hats when you go into
the room. And that can beinteresting because yeah, you know, there
were times, you know, tenyears ago when we would have much more
(23:36):
spirited debates about our opinions on things. And the thing with film is that
there's in television there's really not timefor that. Everything is under a ridiculous
time constraint. So a lot ofthe moments where you might be tempted to
say, you know, throw outsome complete curve ball that you know might
lead to brilliance or might fall onits face if the room is already cooking,
(23:56):
if you know your showrunner is happyand trucking along, you really don't
want to be the person to throwsand into the gears. So what I
would say is when it comes toworking in a family dynamic that way,
you do have to put the familypart aside and kind of look at it
as a chain of command thing.Well, writers' rooms are very egalitarian,
and that anyone below showrunner, forthe most part, in a good room,
(24:19):
has an equal voice. When theshowrunner speaks and says we're moving on,
you're moving on, and that isnot the time to be like yo,
brother, This is what you know. So that's the challenge is learning
how not to be a sibling.Yeah, I can't imagine doing that with
my sister, but I have anotherpodcast. I brought her on for an
(24:41):
episode, and that was about allthe two of us were going to be
able to collaborate on. Was aforty minute retelling of our funny moments of
our childhood, none of the unfunnymoments of our childhood. So aside from
that moment between Verna and Madeline,did you have another favorite part of that
(25:04):
episode or something in particular that youpitched, Because this is also news to
me, like, oh yeah,you're in there pitching these ideas also about
what happens in each episode, soyou know, with a lot of the
pitching in the way this works,you know, you get your ideas and
they are but again, I wantto stress that it's a very collaborative process
(25:25):
on these episodes, so a lotof them are just kind of at this
point because man, it's been along time. It's been like over a
year since we were in that room, and I've had one between and my
mind, just like any theater person, tends the purge the show from last
year to make room for the showthis year, Like at this point,
a lot of it's chop suey tome, like I'm like, God,
did I pitch that? Who pitchedthat? It gets kind of funny that
(25:48):
way. There's interesting parts of it, like the entire Juno storyline, for
instance, didn't exist when the draftswere written for the Writer's Room. The
entire Juno character was not introduced untilafter the scripts had already been gone.
That had already gone in the Writer'sRoom had been dissolved. So there are
some radical changes to these things thatI was seeing for the first time when
(26:10):
I was watching the episode, andI was like, oh man, I'm
so glad that this Juno tract gotwritten because they get to use Ruth cod
and Ruth is an exceptional human beingas well as an actor, and it's
always a joy to see Ruth work. Another bit that I think at least
I did the dialogue for and themajority of it stayed in would be the
early Annabelle Lee stuff and so youngDupan and you know Freddie, and just
(26:37):
the having that line of asking andmaking sure that they'd be taken care of,
and having that sort of link betweenDupin and Annabell Lee, which then
pays off in the next episode ofwhy did Dupan ever trust Roderick? And
it's because he trusted Annabel And thatwas a nice little exchange where I think
that trust was established very elegantly andvery quickly, concisely economically. And that's
(26:59):
what you want, really is,is you want these, you know,
four or five line exchanges that spellout entire character arcs if you can.
And I just think that Katie Parkeris so essential to this show, and
the same way that Leonore is essentialto this show, and that they are
the heart of this thing there.They are the people that we can hang
our hats on along with Juno andyeah, Parker and I go back a
(27:22):
very long way with Mike, youknow, way before, way before hill
House and Oculus, and you know, back when we were all just scrounging
and scrambling for whatever we could get, and to see Katie Parker go from
Absentia, which was shot in mybrother's apartment. The DP was our brother
in law, and you know thetunnel is adjacent to that apartment. We
(27:47):
all worked for nothing, you know, for the love of the thing.
We had one contract on that wegot Doug Jones for a day, and
I love Doug Jones. He's incredibleand he was so kind wow to work
on that piece. But yeah,you know, you know, just to
see to see Parker go from absentiato the absolute beating heart of something like
this as Annabell Lee has been extremelygratifying. I kind of felt like Parker
(28:10):
doesn't always get the props that shedeserves for the heart that she brings to
these roles, And wow, didshe bring it this time. And I
think it's really going to be appreciated, and I hope that it just buttresses
her higher and higher. I completelyagree with you, and I think it's
so clever the way the Animal Leepoem is used to sort of help us
(28:32):
really understand how important she was andwhat a loss to Roderick she is that
she's gone. And you know,because without that poem, a lot of
her lines are basically like basically eitherbeing like, what do you mean?
Or Hey, this is not agood idea. And yet the poem really
(28:52):
allows us to understand that she's theconscience of the show in a lot of
ways without her having to do there'snot a tremendous amount of exposition about how
that happened. It's just it's rightthere and how meaningful she is through that
poem, and I just was.I was struck by how clever that is
that you're able to put that inthere. And I have a new emotional
(29:17):
attachment to the poem as a resultof the show that I knew because I
knew the poem before, but nowI can connect it more specifically because I
see how Roderick relates to her throughthat same poetry. Absolutely, And I'm
almost sorry I brought it up becauseI know that's from the next episode,
and I don't want you guys toget spoilery. Should I feel comfortable doing
(29:37):
that? Are you guys doing spoilers? Or how we're not doing spoilers?
Actually you'll be okay, okay,Yeah, So that's from that's from eight.
So everyone forget that. You heardall of that. Annabel is going
to be fine. Everyone's going tobe fine. Well, And actually,
what you were saying about the heart, you know the episode you said that
about Annabel, you said that aboutJuna, and you know we feel that
(30:00):
about Leonor and unfortunately those those twopeople are yeah, not treated super well
in the show. So it's atragedy. That's that's it, right,
is when you have powerful people withcompromised senses of right and wrong and then
you put good people into that mix, the good people are going to get
trampled every time. And that isone of the crushing truths of life that
(30:25):
keeps me up at night, thatmakes me scared to go outside that you
know, it's it's one of thosethings that makes me sad every day,
and not just sad, but scared. Yeah, because it seems like,
you know, more and more they'rethe powerful people don't have to outnumber the
good people anymore. You know,you could argue that in this show,
the like, there's so many douchesin this show, so many horrible,
(30:47):
horrible people that yeah, you know, this minority of good people will get
run over. But then again,if you look at it, you know,
you sort of back up from thatand back up from the trees and
look at the forest, and youknow you'll get more of that in next
episode about ruining anything, rob Rick, one person managed to trample the world.
(31:07):
And that's what I see more andmore in reality is a small handful
of narcissists and sociopaths and or justpeople who like money. You know,
they don't necessarily need to fall intoa narcissistic sociopath. They could feel just
awful about what they're doing, butthey'll justify it and do it anyway.
I just see that, you know, small handful of people sort of trampling
(31:29):
the world and dredging up the worstaspects of humanity in their wake. It's
it's depressing to see. But Ithink it's why shows like this are cathartic
to write on and maybe cathartic towatch. It's because, at least in
this show there's some sense of justice. I don't think we get that very
much in life. I don't thinkmany of us are lucky enough to believe
(31:51):
in a verna you know who goesaround, yeah, basically balancing the scales.
I want to talk about the flipside of that, what you're just
talking about for a second, whichis the death of Freddie, which is
gruesome and I would go so faras to say probably the most difficult death
for me personally to watch on theshow, because it seems to be the
(32:16):
one that is the most deliberate,It's the one with the most intention behind
it, and it really feels likeFerna really sort of settles in and you
know, really grabs a popcorn andis like, I'm gonna enjoy every second
of this. And I just wantedto talk about the moral compass of the
(32:39):
show and the come up it's forFreddie. There's something about how he dies
that it's not like it's not likehe just dies. He like he like
really dies, like he is absolutelythrown on all sides out of this world.
When you were putting that together whereyou sort of was there a part
(33:00):
of you where you're really indulging thatsort of vengeance side that thing that's like,
I'm gonna use all of my frustrationwith these narcissists and sociopaths, and
I'm gonna really I'm gonna sit nextto Freddy and watch him go as ugly
as possible. You know. Ithink we always we always knew that he
(33:20):
was gonna be Pitt in the Pendulum. We always knew that was coming,
and then it was almost reverse engineeredthat way, so we knew he was
gonna be Pitt in the Pendulum.We knew he was. He's the penultimate
death just because they die you know, in reverse order to you know,
when they were introduced into the world, so him being the oldest, he'd
last the longest. And yeah,you know, we did our best to
humanize him. We show him asa child quite a few a few times
(33:43):
in that episode to sort of giveyou something to latch onto. But yeah,
I think as a writer's room,once we got to agreeing that he
was going to rip out Maury's teethwith a pair of flyers, we gave
up trying to make him sympathetic,trying to make him likable through in the
towel and like, you know,fuck this guy. It was so yeah,
(34:04):
you know, there's an aspect toit of it. But you know,
the interesting thing about Freddy is hestarts out, you know, in
the early episodes as such a youknow, so someone who really bends in
the wind, right, like someonewho seems to really want to do right
by his family but just can't makeit happen. You know. Sure,
there's an inferiority complex mixed in therethat's very ugly to watch even from the
(34:25):
start, but there's something in therethat wants to be a people pleaser.
By the end of it, he'sonly trying to please a some kind of
grandiose vision of himself. So yeah, I think I think you to your
question, there's absolutely Catharsis there.When I was writing that scene, I
think I had stopped. I hadstopped with Verna when she said, you
(34:49):
know, you've always been afraid ofwhat's coming around the corner. We don't
have to wait anymore. I'm here. I'm finally here, which is doom,
because I've always thought that, youknow, there was some sense of
maybe doom hanging over these kids becausethey were always gonna die. Really a
supernatural po thing, and that sortof sense of lingering dread that you don't
know what it is is very poAnd I was like, oh, it's
Verna. Verna has been hovering overhim his whole life, and this is
(35:10):
it. She's finally here. It'shis moment. He's going to die,
and he can have some peace inthat. And then after a turn of
the draft, I get the newone back and it kept going where Mike
had written in that. Verna waslike, eh, no, I'm gonna
ly down beside you and just sayalso, I totally get that you are
mistreated and fuck you. It's likethat's pretty perfect. So yeah, you
(35:30):
know, it's sort of this wonderfulthing where I had stopped just shy of
that, thinking it might be overthe line, and then the draft that
I got back, I was like, nope, no, no, no,
no, that's perfectly within bounds.And I was like, cool,
all right, go for it.Man oh man. Yeah, that death
scene is very difficult to watch,but it's probably the most deserved death in
(35:52):
the show totally, you know.And I have in my note here to
ask you about his Freddy's character arc, because I mean, he's kind of
pathetic. He's kind of weasley.You see him, like just get more
evil and get kind of drunk withhis new power, which is barely power,
(36:12):
because no one likes him. Imean, his siblings don't like him.
They call him, you know,Frederick and you know so and he
knows it. He knows he's notliked. And that moment when he's just
pulled out Maury's teeth and he putshim down on the tin and he's talking
to whoever he's talking to on thephone, and he goes, if you
don't do this, and he looksat the tin and he's like, I'm
(36:34):
gonna pull your teeth. Though withappliers, and he's so proud of himself,
and it's it's just like, ugh, you just like, really,
if you didn't hate him enough,you hate him even more because he's so
self satisfied. Absolutely, I thinkat that point he's he thinks that he's
(36:57):
become the thing his father always wantedhim to be, and he's done it
through that act that he described of. You know, basically, my father
used to say that in order tomaintain control and leadership, you don't have
to be consistently cruel. You justhave to strike one very decisive blow once,
but it's got to be big.And I think Freddy was a person
who was never willing to strike thatblow. And then everything with Maury,
(37:22):
I'm not going to say enabled himto do that. That's the wrong phrasing.
He used everything with Maury in orderto talk himself into being okay with
striking a blow that he probably wantedto strike to anybody for a very long
time and just you know, luckilyfor the world, didn't have the spine
to do it, striking it onMaury, a person who is you know,
(37:43):
a loved one and incapacitated. Yeah, you know, it is the
most repugnantly easy target that Freddy couldhave picked, and for him to do
that and then take pride in it, thinking that you know that I have
made a big step what I havejust done. Right, Yeah, it's
absolutely repulsive. But at the sametime, you know, there's a version
(38:07):
of Roderick that would probably high fivehim for doing it. It's weird.
Yeah, you know, all thekids are doomed by Roderick, not just
because of the deal that Roderick made, but because of who Roderick was and
how he raised or ignored them.And yeah, you know, Freddie's no
different. They're all victims of thesame person. But that does not excuse
(38:28):
any of the ways in which they'vevictimized other people. Okay, I had
a thing that with Stacy and Ihave been we've been going through each one
of these shows, and I hadthis idea around episode three, and I
want to pitch it to you inthe hopes that you might pitch it to
your brother. In episode three,that lemon speech absolutely knocked me out,
(38:50):
Like I was like, this isamazing. And there's another monologue that comes
like two minutes later. And thenwith every single episode there seems to be
one super killer monologue in every singleone of these shows. And I was
saying to Stacy, I believe MikeFlanagan has an incredible play in him somewhere,
(39:12):
And I know he's probably making muchmore money working in film and television
and it's probably a whole lot easier, But I just want to beg him
to write a play for the stage, just because I think he's got some
incredibly theatrical writing and like it's kindof a it's kind of perfect for like
the stage. So I is thereany odds we could get him to do
(39:34):
this? Honestly, sure, ifyou poke him hard enough, I think
he could. He could write aplay. And yeah, you know,
I think you'd probably be happy toand just beout finding the right time.
I mean, right now, Ican barely get him, you know,
to write an email. Less towrite a play, ed, I'd be
I'd be very impressed. But ifyou can get him just to write back
an email that's more than a sentence, I'm also impressed by that too,
(39:57):
So it's yeah, it's more ofa time constraint, you know. I'm
sure that he'd like to split himselfinto a million different you know, proxies,
like Doctor Manhattan but just can't doit. But yeah, he would
write a lovely stage play, I'msure, and maybe one of these days
he will. I'm all for it. Well, I have one more question.
It's this thing about I might bewrong, but you're really focused on
(40:22):
you know, how Roderick doomed everyoneright, and he's the worst sociopath of
all. And yet is it Roderickor is it Madeleine? Because I feel
like the whole thing with Dupon,I mean, I believed it was gonna
be he was gonna do the rightthing. So am I wrong? Was
(40:43):
he never going to do the rightthing? Or did Madeline convince him to
do what he did? Like,I'm just curious, like how you as
the writer in vision that I yeah, you know, in the writer's room
we talked a lot about you know, Madeline's is definitely the brains of the
operation between the two of them fromchildhood on. I think when it comes
(41:04):
to Roderick and Madeleine, you kindof can't look at them as separate entities.
They kind of go together. Idon't think either of them would have
turned out as horribly as they didif the other one didn't exist. There
was something about that insular bond betweenthe two of them that made that relationship
more important than any other one thatattached itself to them throughout the show and
throughout their lives. I suppose,so just having that kind of you know,
(41:27):
diad, just the two of themlinked that strongly to the detriment of
everyone around them. Yeah, Idefinitely think that Madeline, you know,
ten to tend to be the rudder, but he was always an engine with
her. You know, he wouldhe'd go, you know, he'd keep
the boat moving and she would steer. Jamie, it's been so incredible to
talk to you. We are sograteful for you sharing your time and your
(41:51):
perspective with us this it's just reallyilluminating, and I just want to say
again, congratulations. It's a reallyincredible series, and your episode in particular
is somehow incredibly beautiful and harrowing andlike amazing all in one sort of thing.
It's like, it's really an impressiveachievement. So congratulations to you on
(42:15):
that and thank you for being withus. Hey, thank you so much.
You know, there's a thrill towrite for that episode, and you
know, just speaking for the entireteam of people who brought it to life.
It's very humbling to hear that youconnected with it, and we're all
very grateful to you for watching it, and I can't wait to hear your
thoughts on the next episode, whichwas written by not only Mike, but
(42:37):
our staff writer, who was theincredible Healey Sanchez, who I would love
to give a shout out to hereright now, just because they're an incredible
talent and we're so wonderful in theroom and couldn't be more impressed and proud
by the work that they accomplished.Awesome. Yeah, we'll be interviewing her
on the next episode. Please sendmy absolute best and congratulate them for me.
(42:59):
We will thank you, Thank youso much, Jamie. It was
so fun to talk to you.Wow, wasn't that great. I really
enjoyed talking to Jamie about that wholeepisode. He and his brother have really
(43:21):
locked onto something pretty amazing, andI'm so thrilled for all of the Mike
Flanagan fans out there that you knowthat they've been able to have the opportunity
to bring all of these great seriesand especially this series for everybody to see.
So I really thought it was veryinteresting you know, Jamie stress that
they they all were part of everyepisode. You know, it was a
(43:44):
very collaborative process. But also thathe pitched certain ideas. He pitched the
idea of the poem that Verna saidin this episode, and he did this
little piece of dialogue that Annabelle Leedid and we just keep learning more and
more about this process. It's reallyfascinating, Lindsey, it is fascinating.
(44:06):
And I think that is the thingthat I continue to be really amazed by
is even though this is a MikeFlanagan produced show, it's clearly a full
team effort, and that everyone onthis show, whether it's the writing team
or the production team, or theactors or the director, cinematographer, they're
(44:30):
all working really well together to makethis kind of thing happen. And sometimes
film and TV can be viewed assort of like an Awe tour sort of
art form, whether there's one personwho's driving the whole thing. But in
this case, it seems that Mikeflangan in addition to having a lot of
really great ideas, this also seemsto be a really terrific collaborator to work
(44:52):
with, which I think brings outthe best in everybody who works for him,
and you had that sweet little momentat the start of the episode that
you had actually met Jamie before.I had no memory of that what's over,
But I'm so excited about that.I can't tell you. It's so
great. I So what he's talkingabout is I taught for thirteen years at
(45:15):
a summer program at Northwestern University calledthe National High School Institute, which is
nicknamed the Cher Program. And Ithink the last year that I was there,
he was. He was also thereat that time, and it was
just great to reconnect with him asa high schooler. He was a faculty
associate. He would have been incollege at that point, so he would
(45:38):
have he was uh okay, he'ssort of like a junior counselor type of
person in that thing. But it'sso great to see him again, and
I'm so thrilled for his success.Like I'm you know, the part where
he was like a struggling actor workingand then decided like, oh, I'm
(45:58):
going to give it up and gointo you know, being a heart technician
and then which is not a dishonorablething certainly. I mean, that's really
incredible. But the part where hemanaged to find a pursuit that really suited
his creative impulses and his passions.Like, that's such an awesome story,
Like that's a great ending to that, And he had a part. I
(46:20):
forgot to ask him what party playedin Hillhouse and then he was able to
offer his expertise in the Telltale Heartepisode. So that's with the heart mesh.
That's really that was great to hearthat. Yeah, man, I
guarantee you they're not getting that onYellowstone. There's nobody on that writing team
who's like, guys, I gota whole background and heart technician. So
(46:42):
we're all set. That's a verygood side hobby to have. Yeah,
no kidding, no kidding. Sothat's our time is just about up,
Lindsay, We're gonna have to stop, but I will see you next week
when we interview Keelee Sanchez, whowas one of the main writers in episode
(47:06):
eight. And you should all knowthat episode eight will not even be our
final episode. We're going to havea bonus episode nine. More on that
next time, but we will seeyou next week for Psychoanalyzing the Fall of
the House of Usher. Thanks forjoining us, See you later, Bye
bye. Psychoanalyzing the Fall of theHouse of Usher is a production of straw
(47:32):
Hutmedia. Your hosts are Stacy andI and Lindsay Jones. Your producer is
Maggie Bowles. Editing and sound designby Daniel Ferrera, Theme music by Adrian
Berenger with additional music from Marco Martiniand Artie Son. Subscribe, rate and
review, and come back for newepisodes every Friday, and tell us what
(47:52):
should we psychoanalyze next. Let usknow by emailing us at Psychoanalyzing at straw
hutmedia dot com. See you nextweek. It him to the cottag
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