8. The Raven

Can you believe it's time for the season finale??! This week, Lindsay and Stacey sit down with Kiele Sanchez, who who co-wrote the episode with Mike Flanagan.

The season may be over, but we're not done Psychoanalyzing yet... We have a few more interviews to come this year! So tune in next time for more about the The Fall of the House of Usher on Netflix!

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
Straw Media, Hi and Lindsay Jonesand I'm Stacy Nye and welcome to episode
eight of psychoanalyzing the Fall of theHouse of USh or the big finale,
the Final Slam. We're here,we made it. I can't believe it.
I'm excited. Let's get started.Tell us about the episode. All

(00:31):
right, this is the recap ofepisode eight of psychoanalyzing the fall of House
of the Usher. If for somemiracle you have some now not watched this
show, please stop listening to thisright now. Go get your life in
order, watch the episode and thencome back here. Or we can,
finally, once and for all,get this over with. Okay, It
starts like this. In nineteen seventynine, Griswold makes Roderick his right hand

(00:55):
man after he saves the company atthe court hearing. On New Year's Eve.
Madeline and Roderick serve Griswold poison andmantiliado and while him in the basement,
murdering him like literally, build abrick wall around the man while he's
wearing a Jester hat. What away to go out. They plan to
frame him and have Roderick replace himon the board, taking over Fortunado.

(01:19):
The siblings spend time at Verna's bardo, establish an alibi, and they make
a deal with Verna for wealth andpower, but in exchange, the Usher
bloodline will die right before the siblings, who will all die together in the
present. Verna offers Pimadeal for immunityfor his crimes, but he refuses.

(01:40):
Vernon regrets having to kill the innocentLeonore and reveals that her mother will recover
and form a beneficent foundation in hername. After granting Leonore a peaceful death,
Verna had then instructed Roderick to callDupan to confess. Before doing so,
Rodrick had invited Madeline to the oldhouse where he killed her and replaced

(02:00):
her eyes with sapphires to give hera queenly sent off, because that is
just the considerate thing to do.After Roderick finishes confessing, a blind and
deranged Madaline emerges from the basement,problematic, revealed to have only appeared dead
like their mother, who then stranglesRoderick, causing the house to literally collapse.

(02:23):
The literal fall of the house ofUsher Juno that inherits and dissolves Fortunato,
creating a drug rehab foundation Pim arrestedand Dupin retires. Vernal leaves a
token on each usher grave while we'reciting at ground Poe's poem Spirits of the
Dead. Holy Cat's what an episodethis thing was. That recap doesn't even

(02:45):
begin to really scratch the surface ofall of the craziness going on here.
I know. I mean, first, all of the twists and turns and
surprises. So were you surprised bythe end. I'm surprised all the way
through? Are you kidding me?I feel like that that episode is one
surprise after another, Like I'm literallylike, oh, and okay, we're

(03:05):
doing this now, Like everything islike that. Yeah, I loved I
loved Griswold behind the wall, andI probably still didn't get it until they
put the Gester hat on, eventhough they showed us the gester throughout they
rang the bell and then there itwas like, oh, oh, I
mean it was beautiful, Stacy.This is actually, though, an admirable

(03:30):
quality for you. And I wantto just take a moment to point this
out because you keep saying this,like I can't believe they didn't guess that
they were going to put a Gesterhat on the man and then wall him
to suffocate to his death. Thisis actually a good thing that the just
did not occur to you, becauselike if you had been like, oh,
I get what this hat's for.They're going to suffocate the man behind

(03:50):
a wall, a brick wall untilhe dies, like I would be concerned
about being in room with you.Okay, thank you, Yeah, no,
you did the right thing. Iloved I love Young Roderick's line when
they're sitting there and he goes,I thought it was gonna be louder.
Wow right, Yeah, I'm gladit wasn't louder. That would have been
really gruesome. Not that you know, the whole rest of the series wasn't

(04:13):
gruesome. The whole rest of theseries was insane, Like like the whole
the whole thing was insane. Butalso though, okay, let's talk about
the big confrontation in the boardroom,Like that whole thing just absolutely blew my
mind. The body's falling from theair, them piling up on the ground

(04:34):
below, like all of that stuff. You're just like, oh my god,
oh my god. Yeah, andhe still didn't care. Really,
he kind of cared after that.I think that was it. I think
he sort of was like, forthe first time was able to be like
because up till now he's like,hey, hey, you know that ligodome
could be harmful, and he's like, eh, harmful, smartful, you

(04:55):
know what I mean. But nowsuddenly you've got thousands of falling bodies falling
out of the air. It's hardto deny that kind of thing. Yeah,
but you know, I think Ikept and I almost said this to
our guest today, that I thoughtZach played Young Roderick so so well that

(05:15):
I kept wondering how guilty or innocenthe was, you know, like I
kept wanting to think it was allMadeline, you know. But then come
around to the scene with Juno,and Juno's like, I want to go
off. You said it wasn't addictive, and then he talks for ten minutes
about how addictive it is, Likehe knew the whole time he used her.

(05:38):
He just used her. That's whatall of the ushers did. They
just used everybody for their own benefit. And ugh, that was heartbreaking.
But you make a good point though, because young Roderick, right, who
get Zach Gilper plays you really believethat when he goes into that opening sequence
where he's going to give evidence.You think, oh my god, Roger

(06:01):
Kusher's really going to do the rightthing. And then when he doesn't,
we're disappointed. And Annabel Lee isdevastated by this. You know, she
looks at him as a hero andthen realizes, oh my god, I've
hitched my life to a person withoutany real moral standing. Who did she

(06:24):
marry? Yeah, and despite thefact that he's like, listen, baby,
just hang on to me. Youknow, you're going to get all
the money and wealth you want.And she takes a hike anyway, and
that clearly is the thing that RogerUsher wanted that he could never get,
and maybe that's the only thing rightand that deal. So we learn about
the deal for you know, thewhole deal, you know, and how

(06:49):
just nonchalant they both are, Okay, that works for us. We'll just
sacrifice our bloodline, which it meanssomething to him at least at that moment.
He's got to kids at that time. Okay, well, you know
they'll live long enough, you know, with lots of money and wealth and
power. That works for us.I mean, to be fair, Stacy,

(07:11):
they have just rationalized walling a manwearing a jester hat and downstairs.
Yeah, so before this so I'msure he deserved it. I mean sure,
technically he was not what no one'sgoing to crown Rufus as Man of
the Year. But nevertheless, they'vealready sort of begun to take steps down
a path that perhaps is not youknow, they're not going to win the

(07:33):
Nobel Peace Prize, so maybe theyfigure, well, hell, listen,
Rufus is jingling his bells back inthat wall back there, we might as
well send our children to Hell aswell while we're here. Yeah, and
then you know that last reveal aboutLeonor because and I love Verna's line,
like, I don't know, likewhy it got up to me to define

(07:55):
bloodline to them, meaning Lenore alsoand was innocent and really that shouldn't have
happened to her, poor Leanor.Yeah, I mean, what's the moral
of the story of Leonor? Basically, like is don't get born into families
with lots of terrible people. It'sreally all I can say about that.
Poor Lenor just keeps meaning in everyepisode she's like, what do you mean

(08:18):
we're not bringing a doctor in formom? What do you mean You're you're
selling drugs that are making people addictedfor life. You know, like you
should probably do that, Grandpa.Yeah, that seems wrong. Maybe,
yeah, But okay, before welet go of Leonor forever, though,
can we talk about the texting thatLeonor did through the whole episode? Yes,

(08:39):
Oh my god, the text reviewwhen we see what that is.
I mean, they try to throwus off the scent on that one.
They sure did, right, andagain there were lots of hints with you
know, Madeline creating that Ai.We kept hearing about that, and yet
Yeah, I didn't put that onetogether either. I did not. I

(09:00):
think it was Ai texting me totell me it's over, which, by
the way, it was over.That thing is probably still pinging. Yeah,
probably right. I'm sure Japan issitting in an evidence room right now
with that phone being like, ohmy god, kid, let it go.
Well, this is really, likeI said, we could talk about

(09:20):
this episode, I think for atleast another hour, but we really should
spend the time talking to the personwho helped to create it. Stacy tell
us who our guests are this week. So our guest today is Keey Sanchez
and Keeley is an actress and screenwriter. She is known for her roles in
a perfect getaway, the Purge,Anarchy, and Lost. She is married

(09:46):
to Zach Gilford, who plays youngRoderick, since December twenty twelve. This
is her first screenwriting credit and it'samazing. Can't wait to talk to her.
Welcome, Keey Sanchez. Yes,hi, Keeley. We're so happy

(10:07):
to have you here today. Andwe understand that you had a big part
in writing episode eight. Is thatcorrect? Yes, that is correct.
This is like your first big writingassignment, right, Is that true?
One hundred percent? That's true.I had never been a part of a

(10:28):
writer's room. I had never beenon deadline. I had never you know,
had to answer to anybody else otherthan myself. I had written a
movie script that my husband mentioned toMike on a New Year's Eve, maybe
a few drinks in, not everthinking that he was looking to fill his

(10:54):
writer's room for his next project oranything like that, but really just kind
of wanting to get this murder mysterythat I wrote in front of Mike's eyes
and see what he thought, becauseI was very being very coy about the
whole project. Wow. Yeah,So the next day Mike doesn't drink but

(11:18):
I do, and so I waswildly hungover and I got an email from
him being like, I want toread that script, and I was like,
oh god, so like, really, I don't want you to because
I'm such a huge fan of hisand I didn't want him to think differently

(11:39):
of me after reading it, andso yeah, I sent it to him
and he read it pretty much rightaway and then said that he had another
spot, one more spot in hiswriter's room, and that he likes to
hire people who have never been inthat experience before and start to give them
a chance, and would I beinterested? And I said no, I

(12:05):
don't know how to absolutely not.I can't write what you write, like
I'm not. I don't write horror. And I really just did not think
I could I could do it,And he said, I believe in you.
I think you can. He passedmy script around, which is under

(12:30):
a pen name, so nobody wouldthink he was playing sort of insider hiring
a friend or the wife of youknow, a friend or anything like that,
and so you know, Intrepid andNetflix all approved me to be in
the writer's room and away we went. That is amazing, That is so
exciting. Yeah, I've definitely hadthat experience where I volunteered for something and

(12:54):
then someone said yes, and thenI went, oh shit, what have
I done? Yeah, but notwith Mike flann again. You said yes,
and here you are. You're like, what here we are? Okay?
So you get this job, whichyou're definitely feeling like, you're feeling
your way through it, right,You're figuring out how you're going to do

(13:15):
this job, right? Yes,and then you start breaking the series and
then Mike Flanagan is like, hey, NBD, how'd you like to help
me break the finale? You canwrite the finale of this entire series.
Yeah, that was really a headspinning that happened much later on. It

(13:37):
was a slow burn to that point. But I definitely learned so much in
this writer's room. Mike is,I mean, he really is brilliant and
he is he I don't use thatterm lightly, like genius or brilliant,

(13:58):
and you might hear it lot inthis because I do think quite a few
people are extremely talented and going tobe stars and are brilliant and geniuses,
but him foremost, and I learnedin that room when he says, hey,
why don't you guys go off andthink about you know, Madeline's backstory,

(14:20):
you know, or what she mightsay in this scene. I would
come the next day with just sceneswritten, like a whole like yeah,
and that's not what he was askingat all. And this was just like
my newness to a room, youknow. He was like, I do
that. I don't need you toactually come in with the whole thing figured

(14:43):
out. So it was a humblingexperience in so many ways. As an
actor you're treated like so precious,and as a writer you are not,
which I have to say, Ireally liked it. I like, I'm
from Chicago and from a tough youknow family, So I'm like, that's

(15:07):
my love language. It's tough,tough love. Yeah, it's tough.
Yeah, tell it like don't blowSunshina night. But so the murder mystery
that you wrote, is that integratedinto Usher or is that something we have
yet to see? That is somethingwe have yet to see. Hopefully fingers

(15:31):
crossed, not gone. What it'syou know, writing your own stuff and
trying to get your own stuff madeis like pushing a boulder up a hill.
It is such a different experience againfrom like being an actor. As
an actor, you're hired, youknow, right before we go into production,
so you maybe have like two weeksto get your stuff together and get
on a plane and go wherever andcreate a character and all of that stuff.

(15:54):
Whereas you know, trying to getsomething sold and trying to get something
that you made to like actually pieceyou know on camera, is it's really
difficult. So yeah, fingers crossed, we will. We'll see that murder
mystery one day. Okay, that'smy favorite genre. Yeah, me too.

(16:15):
I'm really enjoying it. Okay,how did you get into writing that?
Like, obviously we didn't really setthis up, but you have an
extremely successful career as an actor obviously, and you you sort of have transitioned.
Is this like a full transition intowriting or is this like a thing
you're doing you're splitting your time,or like, how did you get to
this? I'm definitely splitting my time. This is where I want to go.

(16:40):
I want to transition into being awriter a creator. You know,
some of the things that I'm workingon now and have in the pipeline are
are things in which I'm in andother things in which I'm not a part
of at all. So yeah,it's a transition period and something that's difficult

(17:03):
to sort of both careers take allof your energy. I'm trying to find
that balance between the two, andI'm not great at it yet totally understandable.
You're still figuring it out. Yeah, still figuring it out. I'm
wondering. You mentioned Zach, andso I don't know if the listeners know

(17:23):
you're married to Zach Gilford, whoplays young Roderick in the series, and
I'm wondering what it was like towork with him in that way. I
can say that when you work ona Mike Flanagan project, he basically has
it cast with all of the actorsthat he usually you know, pulls from

(17:48):
all the people that he loves towork with from his flanne verse, you
know, they call it, Ithink and uh, Zach was actually cast
as Built, oh originally. Soit was really fun to write for Built

(18:08):
and to imagine Zach as you knowthis this character and he was Built sort
of became our sometimes our opener orour closer to sort of lighten the mood
in the room. It would wewould kind of always go back to Built
and you know what Built Army wasdoing, and Built Nation might be you

(18:30):
know what kind of videos he wouldbe sending out and like, could we
have a whole you know, podcastand and and web series on just like
built actual you know his thing.Wow. So the whole time we were
writing, it wasn't until after wewere done writing that he that Zach became

(18:55):
young rhetoric as opposed to Built andMatt became Built. You know, how
did that happened? I think thatit was I can't remember if it was
Mike or Zach's idea to say,hey, what about young Roderick? I
can't recall which one it was,but it was sort of I think really

(19:19):
once it was thought of by eitherone of them and communicated to the other,
it was really like, yes,yeah, okay, perfect done.
I'm just picturing Zach working really hardto buff himself up as much as possible
to be Bill, and then hegets a call that's like, hey,
I guess what, We're actually goingto make you young Roderick instead. And

(19:41):
but I did all this work andnow yeah, I mean I would get
you know, out of the room. It was on zoom at the time
because of the pandemic and everything.But and go over to him and be
like you better start and die.You start to very funny, which was

(20:02):
difful to be on the other side. You know, as an actress,
you're always like, you know,like worried about what you look like in
your body and all of that stuff, And it was like famulus to sort
of see him torture him with alittle bit man. So you're just like
coming home and being like, wecame up with a whole podcast today about

(20:23):
how you have the most amazing armsof all time, so you better get
the work a day exactly, exactly. Yeah, And then I think,
as you guys know, there wasn'ta whole different older Roderick in the original
casting. Yeah, so it justfelt like a beautiful sort of accident or

(20:51):
set of circumstances that Zach leans somuch more of a young Bruce, you
know than Yeah, for sure,it feels like meant to be faded.
Absolutely. It's hard to imagine thatrole any other way now, I know.
But it's interesting then that you didn'twrite that role for Zach. I

(21:12):
mean, obviously yet he still dida great job, but you had envisioned
I don't know who you had originallyenvisioned, if that matters, but I
don't believe that that part was castalmost everything was cast, but I don't
think that young Roderick had been castyet, so it was just taking from

(21:33):
almost who was this person? Andneither had young Madeline been cast also,
so it was really sort of creatingthese people forward and backward in time.
We start in the pilot of them, you know, as kids, and
who they you know, where didthey come from? And then also who
do these people become? So thenthe nineteen seventy was sort of like this

(21:57):
this bridge, these bridge characters.You talked a little bit about how you
enjoy the tough love of being awriter and how it's different than being an
actor. I'm curious because I've workedwith a lot of actors who become either
directors or writers in the past,and I always feel like the thing they

(22:19):
say is they're like, man,I can't wait till I'm on the other
side of the camera. I'm goingto fix these things that I have seen
wrong as an actor. And thenyou get to the other side of the
camera and you're like, well,actually, I think this might be the
actor's fault that these things are wrong. Were there things that when you got
to be a writer you were like, oh, man, I really appreciate

(22:41):
this more about writing or I reallyI've learned something that I don't think I
would have perceived as an actor.Yeah, I think that, Well,
there's so many things. There's oneas an actor. Sometimes when you want
to like something isn't feeling right inyour mouth and you want to change the
words, and the writers get youknow, very protective and defensive, and

(23:07):
I now get that that you're itfeels like you're pulling a string in in
something and a sweater that's that youcould like unravel. You're like, let
me check this, Like I wantto make sure that you know everything is
covered in this in if we changethis line or these four lines or whatever
it is that you want to do, that that we're not gonna undo the

(23:29):
whole scene, undo the whole sweater. Yeah. So I definitely understand that
a lot more. And I butI also think that one of the things
that I learned the most through thisprocess being in a room that's run by
the creator and the showrunner, thedirector and the you know, he does

(23:52):
everything almost right, that his hisvision is so clear and is so precise
that you know, there are certainthings that I wrote in episode eight,
by the way, we we wroteall of the episodes except for the pilot,

(24:15):
which he wrote on his own andgave to us at the same time.
So, oh wow. When Iyeah, when I was writing eight,
I didn't have two, three,four, or five or six or
seven to kind of build upon.Oh wow. Yeah. So we all
only had the pilot and we had, you know, an approved outline of

(24:37):
each episode and the series as awhole, and then it was just go
off and write your episode. Sowhen I wrote eight, Juno didn't exist.
So you were right, Stacy inthat in an earlier episode you were
wondering if they had written that characterfor her for Ruth. Oh uh huh,

(25:02):
who is I agree with you astar? Yeah yeah, and and
uh yeah they did. He wrotethe whole character Juno and placed her into
the series after we had all turnedin our scripts. So eight was very
different. Juno didn't exist. Therewasn't a suicide attempt in seven at the

(25:23):
end of seven, so it wasquite different. And there were things that
seemed really important in the room anddidn't make it to you know, screen,
and you're like, I don't missthat at all. Oh my gosh.
We were laboring over you know,these things and it's and it really

(25:44):
doesn't. It doesn't matter in thedrama of it. I mean, it
flows so beautifully to hear that youdidn't even I mean you had an outline,
I guess of what was going tohappen, but the fact that you
didn't have access to those other appisand that's done deliberately. That's how Mike
does it. I don't know,I I don't I know that that's not

(26:07):
normal quote unquote. I don't knowif that's how he usually does it.
He was in host for Midnight Masshe was in prep for Midnight Club,
and we got him for a fewhours in the morning, and then at
a certain point we lost him.Except for like maybe once a week he

(26:32):
would come into the writer's room,and so it was a very I don't
think anything about it was kind ofwhat usually happens. You know, he
extensively, you know, weaved allof those things into our stories that we
turned in, you know, beautifully. But he has it's like he has

(26:55):
it in his head already. You'rejust trying to like him the writer's room
and be like, what's just tellme? But yes, we didn't know.
I didn't know that Madeleine's voice wasgoing to sound the same as any
other writer's Madeline's voice. I didn'tknow that. I mean, any of
these characters were going to be soundact, you know, in accordance with

(27:21):
the same picture I had in myhead. It was it was scary.
So what's the writer's room like?Then? So Mike shows up in the
morning, you guys work for withhim for a while, and then he
has to go off to post someother thing, and then you guys are
sort of left to your own deviceswith homework. It sounds like all of

(27:41):
you just sort of like, okay, what are you doing? Are you
all? Are you all checking inwith each other? Are you like,
okay, what's you? Who doyou think Madeline is? Or are you
just like are you going to yourown offices and writing? And then and
then coming back in and being like, surprise, here's Madeline. It looks
like this. How does that work? I know it really was. Before

(28:02):
he kind of left the writer's roomto go and direct I believe Midnight Club,
he left it in the hands ofEmmy and Melinda, who is a
producer, so you know, awriter and a producer from Intrepid who were
incredible. But before he sort ofleft us. We were given the whole

(28:26):
sort of outline for the you know, the breakdown of the series and what
it was supposed to look like,and when we were supposed to go back
to the conversation between Roderick and Japanwhen the halfway mark was what the like
the symmetry of all of it,he had already like a beautiful mine,
did it, and did that forus. So it felt like he was

(28:51):
always there in no way and yeah, and so when he would come and
check in at the end of theweek or you know, twice week,
I don't even remember what it was. The little times that we got him,
we all took and the writer's assistancewere incredible, and they took extensive
notes of like anything you would say, and sometimes he would just come out

(29:14):
with full on, you know,monologues of what a character would say,
and you better put that in yourscript whatever, or you know, script
that where it belongs, because youknow, it's like it's gold and he
only has so much time, sohe expects it to be in there.

(29:37):
So all of the things that Iwas afraid of, which was I wouldn't
be able to do this genre.I wouldn't be able to write in somebody
else's voice, and I was reallyterrified of being responsible to a deadline.

(29:57):
It kind of just showed me thatI could did do those three things.
And it was really awesome to sortof read the other scripts and hear,
oh, Madeline's voice is exactly thesame in Danny's mind or Rebecca's mind,
as you know, Jamie's mind,as it is in mind. It was.

(30:17):
It was really cool to see howcohesive that room really was. That's
so awesome. So I just haveto say, I just got it.
I just have to add this thisthing about Ruth, because you just said
he was doing Midnight Club. Sohe meets her, he casts her in
Midnight Club, he's doing that showwith her. After he's done Usher,

(30:41):
he falls in love with her anddecides he's got to put her in Usher
and writes a whole character for herand weaves her in to the whole show.
Is that the way it happened?That is correct? Yes, Okay,
I just got that, like i'dheard it already, but you made
it all come together for me.So wonderful. She's great, She's wonderful,

(31:03):
and I think there was a youknow, we were trying to figure
out a character liked Juno that wethought maybe one of the children was this
sort of crusader who was actually youknow, more of an activist against the
you know, opioid crisis and ligadoneand taking down their family's names from museums

(31:26):
and hospital wings and stuff like that, and it just kind of didn't fit
at the time that you know thatone of the daughters would kind of move
that way. And we knew wehad Leonore and we had annabel Lee.
So Annabelle Lee in eight was goingto have well in the original she didn't.

(31:49):
She didn't die or most likely killherself. She was alive and she
had her own reckoning at the funeralwith Roderick. But like face to face
that it was that she was aliveand well. But I think when Mike
created, you know, there's there'syou kind of have to make room for

(32:14):
these three separate heroines, right likeannabal Lee is a heroine and her own
story, and Leonora is the heroineand the Usher bloodline, and that Juno
is is this heroine of again herown story, you know, of recovery
and breaking a cycle for herself withoutany help or you know, mystical sort

(32:37):
of deals with anybody to come andsave her, she saves herself. I
wanted to ask you about the politicsof the show for a minute, and
I hope I'm not putting you onthe spot by asking you this, but
I'm really intrigued by it. Particularlyin episode eight, there seems to be

(32:58):
I mean, I will say probablyone of my all time favorite moments of
this entire series is the moment whenFurnough flashes on a picture of Donald Trump
and Arthur Pim says, Oh,my God, isn't it time for him
yet? Because you know, here'sArthur Pim, who has the moral compass
of Attila the hun and is somehowlike this guy's too mercenary even for me.

(33:22):
But beyond just those kind of slyreferences that are in there, there
is this sort of overarching feeling,which is that capitalism and corporate greed are
really killing us. And in away, the show almost feels like,

(33:42):
in the same way that Verna hascome to visit each of these characters and
say turn back now before it's toolate or it's over, it feels like
the show is coming to us,the audience and saying a similar version of
that, and I'm just curious howmuch of that was talked about in the
room. Was that really something thatyou wanted to make sure was fully integrated

(34:04):
into the show so that it's it'snot just entertainment, but hopefully providing a
deeper sort of moral lesson to theaudience. For sure. That is I
think one of the brilliant things thatyou can do in this genre, and
that has been done over and overagain, and I think that Mike,
it was really important to Mike thatthat be what this you know, ends

(34:27):
on. And you know, fromthe lemon monologue, you know, to
even Madeline's last monologue in eight Idon't think that he's we're pulling any punches
that in that way, it wasvery important to sort of tie what is

(34:50):
happening right now and these decisions thatpeople make to sell your soul and that
thought of is it better though,to have a life where you don't struggle
that you have, you know,this gilded life, and it is I

(35:12):
think this sort of temptation for mostof these people in these positions, that's
what they're going for. They don'tgive a shit about the future generations,
you know, including their own.Yeah, they made a deal against their
own basically exactly. I want tosay Kiley that I've already announced that episode

(35:35):
six is my favorite. I lovethe whole like mirror scene, but episode
eight, I want you to know, surprised me. And I like to
consider myself as an intelligent person.I work hard to try to figure out
who the killer is before everyone elsedoes, and all of those things.
But I never, even with allof the hants along the way, never

(36:00):
ever guessed that Griswold was behind thatwall, even with all of the bell
ringing, all of the ways inwhich you tried to warn me, and
I didn't get it. And sothat was an amazing scene. I love
that scene where they're building the walland he's back there. It literally wasn't
until they put the thing on himthat I went, oh the bell,

(36:22):
like not the very last moment,Oh that's the bell. So I just
want to hear like your thoughts aboutbuilding that kind of mystery and tension,
And it must have been very gratifyingto write that scene. I would think,
when you can finally let us knowwhat it's all about. But I'd
like to hear about that. Oh, I love that though I love that

(36:44):
you didn't know. I mean,but that is also that's myke, you
know, when he places those bellsin the whole course of the you know
series, and how how much istoo much of tipping the hat and how
much is not an enough where there'snot enough you know, sort of crumbs
to lead you to something. It'ssomething just seems like it's coming out of

(37:07):
left field. There's no payoff there, and he's really brilliant at being able
to do that. Writing the breakingup scene was very gratifying. I got
to know a lot of the castthrough my husband. We were all marooned

(37:29):
up in Canada, and so Igot to become really good friends with a
lot of the cast before before Usherwas even filmed, before they knew anything
about it. So I yeah,so I met truccoh and I'm like,
oh, I have just put someof the most disgusting things in your mouth.

(37:55):
It just like you know, Iwas just again, this was written
I think like April twenty twenty one, so this is long before you know
any of them were cast. Therewas no nothing they were cast in our
minds from Mike. But yeah,I just I was so excited. I

(38:21):
became very good friends with samanthas Layand my kids call her auntie Sammy,
so that's great, dear dear friends. But you know, I would see
her and just be like, Oh, you're going to get to play this
amazing character, Like I'm so excited? Were you? And Rabul like it
was just like oh God. Soit was always difficult to kind of hold

(38:45):
back around these people because you alsodon't know like when this is shooting and
are these people going to be available, and things change so often, and
also it's not my place to tellhim anything about about what's happening in the
writer's room, but it was verydifficult to sit on those secrets. And

(39:08):
also just I would find myself juststaring, especially at truecoh and especially because
I had written that breaking up sceneof what was going to happen to Wow,
I wanted to ask you. Soin addition to the politics I referred
to before, the other thing Iwas really impressed by the show is,

(39:30):
first of all, there's a lotof references to women's rights, and there's
also some seriously bad ass women inthis show, like super Strong, in
many ways more mercenary than the men. Matt. I think you could even
say, Madeline when she kind ofpoisons Roderick and you know, sort of

(39:52):
in the way of corporate takeover,Like you're suddenly like, oh wow,
there's somebody who's more ruthless than roderGusser and it's his sister. And I
just wanted to ask you, like, when you were writing these female characters
that are like the most villainous,the most diabolical, or even Verna who

(40:13):
really sort of takes pleasure in thedownfall of this family, are you drawing
from yourself in that experience? Areyou pulling in your own experiences or like
is there something satisfying about it?Or are you just sort of are you
fulfilling the character? Like how doyou draw from your own personal experiences to
create these amazing female characters. Ohthat's so interesting. Thank you first of

(40:37):
all for saying that they're like badasscharacters. That was a very We took
a lot of pride the women.There were a lot of women in the
writer's room, you know, tomake them strong, to make them just
as formidable as the men. Andespecially when you're talking about Roderick and Madeleine.

(41:00):
Madeleine for me, they're twins,and she was always the puppeteer.
Yeah, and because she grew upin the time in which she did,
women weren't really respected, weren't giventhe same opportunities that men where I still
don't know if we are, butyou know, there was such a bigger

(41:21):
divide in the sixties and seventies andMadeleine's struggle with that and defiance against that
and her fight against that was somethingthat I think that was really important for
me, you know, really importantto sort of get across that she'd be
just as diabolical, if not moreso than Roderic because she's had to fight

(41:49):
harder, She's had to claw andscrape more than he has or ever will
have to, and that ship onher shoulder is the little bit heavier than
his, And so we really wantedto portray that throughout and also in the
deal. I think that one ofthe things that we went back and forth

(42:12):
about a lot was Madeleine doesn't haveany children. She has no chips on
the table, right, and shedoes. It's like, yes, she
is more diabolical, but there islike in almost a female way in that
there is still heart in there inthat, like she's not she never has
children. You know whether she thoughtthat this deal was you know, bs

(42:36):
or not. I think that fearin her as things are starting to come
to fruition and happening for them andtheir rise is happening, that she was
very keen to keep her her slateclean. Yeah. I think that's such
an interesting twist of fate too,because you know, every time that Madeline
and Roderick are discussing the children,right, Madeline sort of basically always describes

(43:00):
the children and the marriage is toRoderick as weaknesses, Like this was a
moment of weakness where you had thisjurial child and like that is a line
that's usually held against women of like, oh you know, I can't entrust
you with as much responsibility because youhave children or whatever that is. So
I just thought that was such aninteresting turn of events to be like,

(43:20):
here's the patriarch of this family who'sostensibly, you know, this unbelievably powerful
person, and yet at the endof the day, his sister, who
is somehow childless, holds that overhim as a weakness. Yeah. And
I think that because she did seeit that way, that's why she never
allowed herself, you know, tohave a weakness there's no her armor is

(43:46):
pristine in this fight, and thenthis war and the carnage will be left
to her and her brother. Andso there's something that feels a little bit
more compassionate in that, you know, cruelty too. You know it's I
at least have the decency to notpass this on to the future generations.

(44:07):
You know that I'm going to paythe price for this myself. Yeah.
And I also think that Roderick feels. It seems to me in Roderck's confession
that that confession is sincere, whereyou know for a fact that Madeline would
never give that confession. Madeline isnever going to sit down with Dupin and
say these are the mistakes I made, right? And I think there's something

(44:30):
really intriguing about that. Yeah,I don't think she thinks she's made any
mistakes, right, Yeah, exactly, do it all over the exact same
way, exactly. And Mary McDonaldplayed her brilliantly. I mean, the
whole cast, it's such an amazingjob, really embodied each and every character.

(44:51):
Amazing. And I think because Ialso didn't hate Madeline. You just
said all these horrible things about her, but I didn't hate her, which
I think in part is McDonald's youknow, portrayal of her. That amazing
hair. I just loved her hair, but with the way, without the
way, you know, I thoughtyou looked great. Yeah. Her voice,

(45:12):
I just love her voice. She'sterrifying, but in a way that's
somehow really kind of impressive and attractivein a way like you're kind of like,
boy, I don't think I couldbe a relationship with this person.
But on the other hand, I'mreally excited to see what she's going to
do exactly as long as it's notto me. Y, just be on
the right side of Mattelin is whatyou want. It's an excellent lesson.

(45:37):
Ow Kealley, thank you so muchfor being with us today. We really
really appreciate it. We are suchhuge fans of your work and and this
series as a whole. It's justbeen such a wonderfully satisfying experience that makes
me so happy. I'm so gladwe could make this work. I love

(45:58):
listening to your psychle I don't onlysay oh, thank you, thank you
so much. That makes me sohappy. It's so fun, No,
it is so fun to that,you know, And it's also like sparked
so much of my own. Like, oh, you know, there's there's
so many things that when you arecreating something that you either forgot that you
ever thought of in the first place, or that anybody else ever picks up

(46:22):
on, or you know, appreciatesour sees and yeah, it's just always
so it's so wonderful. So thankyou guys so much for this podcast.
It's so fun. Thank you,Thank you so much. We're so glad
you liked it. Love every minuteof the show. And I don't want
to forget that. Jamie Flanagan says, Hi, that's right, Oh please

(46:43):
tell them. I said, Hi, I love I love Jamie. We
interviewed Jamie for episode seven and hesaid you should definitely interview Keeley and we
said, oh, she's next,She's on our list. He's brilliant.
I just adore him. I thinkyou can do no wrong. His the
way he writes is poetry, Solook out for a lot of Jamie Flanagan,

(47:06):
you know, separate from Mike Flanagan'swork. He's really a beautiful,
beautiful writer. So awesome. Well, so are you, and congratulations on
this. I mean, like Ihave to say, if I was going
to pick the ideal first writing job. I think you have really stumbled upon
it, Like, this is prettygreat. I don't know where you go

(47:27):
from here. I don't either.I don't either look forward to the murder
mystery yet unnamed murder mystery. Sure, yeah, thank you, thank you.
Okay, So that was Kiley Sanchez. She wrote episode eight of Fall

(47:51):
the House of Usher, the finalepisode, and that was amazing. Yeah,
that was awesome. First, Iwant to say I love that Keeley's
been listening to our podcast. Incredible. It gives me such a thrill.
And I knew when she made thatcomment about Ruth Cod you know, being

(48:12):
cast as Juno. I must haveasked that in one of those previous episodes.
You totally did, and she justlike said it, and then I
was like, oh, she's beenlistening. It just got me so excited.
Congratulations. Yeah, successfully found anaudience of somebody. That's incredible.

(48:32):
That's so exciting. Yeah. Sowhat did we learn? I mean I
loved everything I learned from what shetold us. Yeah. I also want
to just say how cool it isthat Mike Flannagan, who is probably still
not listening to this podcast, butthat how cool it is that we've now
talked to three different writers, andeach one of those different writers tells a

(48:53):
different story of how he literally sortof reached out, pluck them out of
obscurity basically, and gave them ajob and empowered them. And now each
of those people have become successful writers. And I'm absolutely floored by this,
Like, I just want to say, I work in Hollywood. This never

(49:15):
happens. No one does this,right, That's a rare individual. That's
a really amazing thing. It's justremarkable. I mean, Keiley, this
was the first thing she ever wrote, and she was put on the final
you know episode with all the revealsand everything. She was literally telling us
of how she was trying to talkher way out of the job, like

(49:37):
you shouldn't hire me. I'm notcapable of doing this. I don't know
how to do it. I willdo a bad job. And he's like,
no, we're hiring you anyway.And then, by the way,
because I feel I have enough confidenceto you, I'm going to ask you
to write the finale of this series. Oh my god, insane? Yeah,
yeah, right. Can you imaginegetting that call where you're like,

(50:00):
ps, I need you to writethe finale. It's your first writing gig
ever and your husband's on the show. I can't even imagine it. I
mean, the pressure she must havefelt, you know, towing in there
and being like, you know,the newbie. But obviously she did a
great job and better than a greatjob, like, yeah, amazing,

(50:22):
And I hope that we can youknow, get to see her Murder Mystery
too. Oh yeah, yeah.I kind of wanted to ask her,
like, hey, so what areyour other projects? But I know that's
kind of ghosh and you can't reallydo that, but I totally want to
know. Maybe she'll listen to thisand then send us a little email and
let us know, yes, otherprojects are Yeah, please Keilli, if

(50:44):
if you hear this and you haveanother show, call us, because well,
you know, we'll totally psychoanalyze.We'll psychoanalyze, right, We have
no shame. We will totally psychoanalyze anything at the drop of the hat.
Yes, just about yeah, prettymuch except for Stacy, right right,
We're not psychoanalyzing me. Okay,fair enough. I also think,

(51:05):
you know, so hearing about youknow the way that they didn't have each
other's scripts, So it's bonkers,right, I mean, he had an
outline that is bonkers, and yetit all came together like that's amazing.
Let's just stop and think about thisfor a second. All right, The
way television scripts are generally written,right, is that the writing team sort

(51:28):
of helps to sculpt out the overallprocess and then literally episodes are assigned one
at a time, right, Andso the idea is that the way it
usually works is that, like,let's say you're on a writing team,
right, and you're assigned episode two. So let's say Mike Flannagan shows up
and Stacy, you're his new writer, which seems entirely possible at this point.

(51:50):
He just kind of get a goodsample. But so Mike Flanagan shows
up and says, Okay, Stacy, you're gonna write too. The way
it's supposed to work is that whywhile you're writing too, all the other
writers are working on figuring out theplot for three through eight. And so
then you write two, and thenwhen you turn into Mike flanagain would turn

(52:13):
to you and say, okay,now so and so it's time for you
to write episode three. And thenit slowly builds. And so the way
that usually works is that generally theshow will begin filming before all of the
episodes are even written. Because youknow, if you think it takes like
osensibly it takes a couple of weeks, two to three weeks to write a

(52:35):
television script for an hour show,and that's being conservative. You know you're
going to go through a couple ofmonths and then hey, it's time to
start filming the thing. In thisversion of this reality, what actually happens
is Mike Flanagan's like, actually,guys, we're going to quickly break the
plot. Then I'm going to sendyou all off in completely different directions to

(52:55):
write scripts simultaneously. I'm going toshow up one I'm not editing this whole
other series that I just did,and I'm going to just sort of continue
to guide you through it. It'sknowing that and then looking at to see
how unbelievably cohesive the whole series is. Yeah, you're like, how did
that happen? I don't get it. I don't even understand. He was

(53:19):
working on two other shows while thiswas going on, Midnight Club and Midnight
Mass, so posting Midnight Mass andI don't know prepping, I don't know
all the lingo, but I havea new theory My new theory is Mike
Flannigan made a deal with Verna wherehe can write as many television episodes at

(53:39):
once, but then his future generationswill never be able to write a television
episode. That's my theory. Whatdo you think I mean? I hope
not. Okay, yeah, fair, Maybe Mike Flanagan is Verna because he
needs to be in more than oneplace at a time. Right, Oh
my god, she is, Yes, Sacy. I feel like this is

(54:01):
the end of Scooby Doo where youpull off the villain's hood and it's we
figure out it was Mike flannagant allalone, those darn kids. What does
he say? What did they alwayssay? It would have worked if it
wasn't for those meddling kids. Guesswho we are in that scenario. We're
the meddling kids. We're the oneswho figured out the plan. Wow,

(54:22):
that Mike Flannigan is actually Verna.That's oh my god. I need to
lay down after that. On thatnote, Congratulations, we got to the
end of therapy. Thanks everyone.Yeah, we did well. We have
a bonus episode for you next week, so stick around one more week for
a really great episode with Jonathan Wales. The sound editor. And you know,

(54:46):
I won't rule out if the castcalls us and says, won't you
please interview us, because I'm surethey're gonna have nothing better to do for
your podcast. Yeah, that seemstotally likely. If there are any cast
members who are listening to this showand you would like to be on the
show, you know where to findus, and that is virtually anywhere.

(55:07):
We're probably standing outside your house rightnow because we're stalking you on social media,
tagging you and we want to interviewyou. But we're being respectful of
the strike and everything, but alsodesperate, right, We're desperate you and
you know and you know who youare, who I've already stalked on social
media, and yeah, if youwould drop that restraining order, we'd really

(55:29):
appreciate, all right, Lindsay,Well, thanks and we'll see you next
week everyone for episode nine of Psychoanalyzingthe Fall of the House of Usher.
See you then. Psychoanalyzing the Fallof the House of Usher is a production

(55:54):
of Strawhet Media. Your hosts areStacy and I and Lindsay Jones. Our
newser is Maggie Bowles. Editing andsound design by Daniel Ferrera. Theme music
by Adrian Brean Guer with additional musicfrom Marco Martini and Artie soun. Subscribe,
rate and review, and come backfor new episodes every Friday, and
tell us what should we psychoanalyze next. Let us know by emailing us at

(56:17):
Psychoanalyzing at strawhumedia dot com. Seeyou next week.