"Auschwitz" w/ Tim Ransom & Jake Broder

Tune in this week as Stacey and Lindsay talk to two guests at once! We have actor Tim Ransom (Kyle) and Jake Broder (Rebbe) on the show.
From Straw Hut Media

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
Strawt Media. Hi, everyone,here is our recap of episode nine of
The Patient called Auschwitz. Just anotherspoiler warning. If you haven't watched this
episode yet, please stop. Goturn on Hulu, watch the episode,
and then come back and listen toour episode of the podcast. So,

(00:28):
this episode opens with Alan in adream he is walking through Auschwitz. He
goes inside and he sees Victor Frankelhaving a nightmare in the camps. He
wakes him up and Victor reminds himon his awake that doesn't didn't he remember
from his book You're not supposed towake up a sleeping person. Then Alan

(00:53):
wakes and continues sharpening his foot creamtube. He's talking to Charlie about what
Victor said. Reality is worse thana nightmare in a place like Auschwitz.
Basically, Alan wakes up Sam totalk before Sam goes to work and tells
him that he doesn't want him singa new therapist. It's running away,

(01:17):
and I felt like I agreed atthat moment that things often get worse before
they get better. This is somethingI've also said to Mike clients, and
that he cares about Sam and thatthey've developed a relationship. Sam responds,
it's not working. I know whatyou're trying to do, and then Alan

(01:38):
tells Sam about Victor Frankel. Peopleneed meaning in their lives and usually we
get that meaning through relationships, andSam says, like Mary, Well,
I didn't feel any different with her. We hear them some background on how
Sam and Mary met. They werefriendly in high school. Mom went to

(01:59):
her for physical therapy, and thenMom gave her Sam's number, which is
kind of interesting. Mary didn't reallywant the marriage to end, but she
didn't know if Sam loved her.Sam then thinks, well, maybe they
can get meaning together from Harrah,their child in Bangladesh. But Sam just

(02:23):
kind of focuses on how Mary complainedall the time and she was upset a
lot, and then he says,hey, maybe Mary didn't have meaning in
her life. Alan then says,I wish that I could meet her,
and I immediately think in my mind. He suggests Mary bringing Mary over to

(02:44):
the house for lunch or dinner,and there's some foreboding music in the background.
I don't know if you caught that. Thank you, Nathan Barr.
He suggests that they set up ananny camp during lunch so that he can
watch the meal and offer his opinion. There's a little bit of back and
forth, but Sam impulsively texts Maryand she agrees to come for lunch.

(03:07):
You see more sharpening of this tubeby Alan, and he's talking with Charlie
and he says, look, withMary upstairs, I can stab Sam,
scream, and Mary will call thepolice. It's a gift from God,
which I think is an interesting thingto say given Sam's liberal relationship with his

(03:29):
religion. Charlie suggests, though,that Alan's going to get Mary killed,
that Mary mom, that maybe Momwill whomp Mary over the head with a
frying pan. But they both agreethat it is a hail Mary with Mary
just a great line. Mary comesfor lunch, and we see the upstairs

(03:52):
of the house for the very firsttime. In one view, like through
the nanny cam, it looks justas dark and dreary as the basement,
but when you're actually up there,it looks out onto the outside and it's
bright and green and airy. It'svery surprising, I think, to people.
Sam actually warns Alan not to doanything stupid. He tells him that

(04:15):
he cares a great deal about Mary, but if he was forced to hurt
her he would if necessary. Hetells Alan that he's serving Indian food,
and since Mary doesn't like Indian,Alan suggests that he should serve something that
she'd like. This apparently has notoccurred to Sam. The meal is so

(04:38):
awkward. Sam serves Mary literally awhole plate of Waldorf salad, which apparently
is her favorite. There's even someupbeat, sardonic music in the background during
this meal, which again I thoughtof Nate. There's lots of silence.
It's painful to watch. Sam triesto tell Alan's joke, and he starts

(05:00):
with a jew is sentenced to death, which is awful. It's just awful,
and even Candice looks up at him, like what, what the hell?
Where are you going with this?He completely mangles the joke, and
both Alan and I have our headsin our hands, like, oh my
god, I can't, I can't, I can't believe it. Sam rushes

(05:26):
downstairs for more coaching. Alan winsesbecause he knows that the time to act
is here. We hear Candice's conversationwith Mary upstairs, and Sam he sees
and hears this too, and it'scompletely normal. It's a completely normal conversation.
But Sam is crouching very close toAlan, and we see Alan fiddling

(05:48):
with the foot cream tube and thetension is just palpable as Alan is trying
to muster the energy and the courageto use this against Sam. We have
Charlie in his head again, suggestingthat Alan is going to get Mary killed.
We have Alan imagining himself killing Sam, and then suddenly Sam stands up

(06:15):
to go back upstairs, and theopportunity's gone. Sam returns upstairs, and
it's really it's heartbreaking. That momentis heartbreaking. Sam returns upstairs and asks
Mary about Mary's job, which isa good attempt at being normal. Mary
misses the lazy Boy. Sam offersto bring it back to her. Then

(06:39):
Candice announces, and I don't knowwhy she does this, that the Sam
was that the lazy Boy was Sam'sfather's chair, and Sam adds that his
father beat him up as a kid, which is why he's gone to therapy.
Again. It's a really awkward moment, like you're wondering this is the
first time that Mary has heard thisinformation. And then Mary gets up to

(07:01):
leave. Alan imagines himself calling upto Mary, but of course he doesn't
do that. Sam walks Mary outto the car and then comes in and
tells Alan that Mary doesn't want toget back together and it was a bad
idea. Alan explains that taking risksand getting hurt is a necessary part of

(07:23):
the process, but Sam doesn't likethis, and he says he's going to
go see mister Bouchella next week.Alan suggests that he'd be sure to talk
about his father what his father didto him. Sam gets mad at this
and claims that he did talk aboutthat, but Alan encourages him to go
deeper. Alan points out that theanger he's feeling right now at his dad

(07:46):
is related to the anger he feelswhen he hurts people. He's not angry
at the people. He's angry athis dad. Sam says, you think
I kill people because of him?And Alan says almost instead of him,
and Sam says, oh, Iget it. He goes to his room
and he comes back with a videoof Ed Kemper being interviewed. He feels

(08:07):
an affinity towards Ed, who describeshow he murdered all these girls and he
did that until he murdered his motherand had all stopped. After that,
he turned himself in. That wasthe thing he needed to do. Kemper
describes how he cut off his mother'shead, humiliated her corpse, and of

(08:28):
course Sam has to translate what hedid to her skull. And Sam is
really excited about this moment and decidesthat the solution to his problem is to
kill his father. Despite Alan's protest, Sam is now on a mission.
He puts on his jacket and hegoes towards the door and announces that He's
going to kill my father, cutoff his head and his skull. Then

(08:54):
he pops back into the room andsays, I'm just kidding. I'm not
really gonna his skull. But that'sthe last line of the show. Oh
nice family entertainment we have here onthis show. My goodness. So,

(09:16):
I think this episode really answers alot of questions that I had, that
it answers them, and it alsolike doesn't answer them at the same time.
The first one that I had whenI first heard that Sam has an
ex wife is I was like,wait, he was married? What was
that like? And as we findin this episode, I mean, like,

(09:39):
I still I have a slightly betterunderstanding of what their relationship was,
But honestly, I am still notentirely sure what's going on in that relationship.
It seems like they were two peoplewho chose to exist in the same
space as one another, but perhapsnever really got to know one another.

(10:01):
I mean, I find Mary kindof boring and milktoast and that's like a
weird word. But she just doesnot much to her And I mean,
maybe I'm not being fair to marry, but I mean, yes, we
need to we need a separate seriesdedicated to the life of Mary really to
understand what she's been through. Butbut yeah, I mean, Mary seems

(10:28):
relatively normal, although I guess shemust on some level not be that socially
open, because otherwise, what wouldshe ever see in Sam in the first
place? Right, Like, that'swhere I spend a lot of time in
that. It's being like how didthey how were they attracted to one another?

(10:50):
How did they decide to get married? How did they think like,
ah, yes, this is theperson I'd like to spend my life with,
you know, And what and wasSam's markedly different during that relationship that
he now isn't. Maybe that's somethinghe's trying to recapture when, say,
when Alan suggests this reunion of sorts. Um or are they just super boring

(11:18):
and nothing ever happened. I can'tI can't quite figure out what that is.
Yeah, it's um it's really ananomaly, I think too. You
know, I can understand maybe theywent on a couple of days, but
to actually get to the point wherethey you know, got married and adopted
this child, you know, suggeststhat they were together for you know,

(11:39):
at least a couple of years.But and she was complaining a lot of
the time, and who wouldn't right, Well, Okay, so I hate
to say this, but I Iwas, I was not sure that.
Once again, this show has taughtme to question everything that any he ever

(12:00):
says about anybody else on this show. So when I when I heard Sam
saying, yeah, she was complainingall the time. We all know that
Sam is a control freak to ana massive extent. So the definition of
complaining, it could be that Marycomplained all the time, or it could
just be that Mary had her ownthoughts and ideas that Sam hadn't considered,

(12:22):
and therefore that was a thing thatwas an interruption of his expectation, and
therefore Sam felt that she was,you know, ruining the plan, whatever
that plan was. So I mean, like, I hate to say this,
but I'm sort of taking Mary sideon this a little bit. Maybe
of course, maybe maybe Mary isn'tas bad as we think. No,

(12:43):
And and most certainly Sam was youknow, out killing people and leaving her
home for hours and hours at atime, so of course she was complaining
there was something definitely wrong with Samin the relationship. And also did she
suspect anything like did she I mean, you know, did she know did

(13:05):
she have any inkland? Because she'sin this show, I will just say
this, she does not act asif she's like, oh my god,
my husband, my ex husband,the serial killer is back at no point.
No, and she looked shocked tohear that his father beat him and
he was in therapy, so right, yeah, so yeah, which is

(13:26):
like, Okay, we saw Samwhen he remember went way back in episode
one, right when with Sam waspretending to be this other guy with a
different name. I think it wasNeil. If I'm remembering this correctly,
I could be. I can't evenremember Sam's alias anymore. Like Sam as

(13:48):
that other person wasn't able to doa whole lot of sharing in the first
place, so It just makes youthink, like, if Sam isn't talking
about killing people, what else hashe got to talk about? You know,
Kenny Kenny Chesney right, Kenny Chesneyright? Or work? Or food?

(14:09):
Yeah, yeah, which apparently Emilyis also Emily doesn't even like Indian
food and sort of seems like,I mean, the Waldorf salad. I
thought that was such a beautiful touchof writing in this, because you know,
like her favorite thing is the mostsort of innocuous salad you could pick
that, you know, you couldget in a lot of places. Yeah,

(14:31):
something that you get like in theDelhi of your grocery store. Totally.
Yeah. Yeah. And so youcan tell that Sam's job of trying
different exotic cuisines held no truck withher whatsoever. She couldn't cared less speaking
of Sam's job. Yeah, wehave some interesting guests on today, and

(14:56):
lindsay, why don't you tell usabout them? All right, everyone,
today we have a double feature foryou. Both Jake Broder and Tim Ransom
are on the show today. Theyare both awesome people, awesome actors,
but also they're friends of mine,so I'm super excited to have them with

(15:16):
this. Jake is a film televisionand theater actor, composer, and writer.
He plays the Rebbie on The Patientand is also known for the Morning
Show, as well as a recurringrole on Silicon Valley. Writing credits include
Our American Hablet and the musical MarkMaravell. He also was a co writer

(15:37):
and co star of Louis and KeelyLive at the Sahara, which started to
take at Full Theater in Los Angelesand then moved to the Gift From Playhouse,
which is where I'm at him.I'm super excited that he's here.
He is currently an Atlantic Fellow ofthe Global Brain Health Institute, an organization
working towards reducing the scale and impactof dementia. Tim is a film,

(16:00):
television and theater actor as well asa theater producer. He plays Kyle,
who is Sam's boss, on ThePatient, and he's also known for the
Dressmaker, Preacher and the recurring roleof Mutant Jack on Star Trek Deep Space
nine. I met Tim doing aplay called No Wake, which started in
Los Angeles and moved to fifty ninetiesfifty nine in New York. This was
many years ago. Tim and Jakethank you both so much for being with

(16:25):
us today. We are thrilled tohave you with us, and we have
so many questions. Sorry, that'sjust always my thing. We have so
many questions. We have any answers, I don't know. Yeah, maybe
they'll match a lot options. It'sa lot, a lot to talk about.
Now, did you guys? Didyou guys ever meet each other when
you were doing the show? Doyou know each other already or is this

(16:48):
the first time you're seeing each other. I certainly know Jake's work and face
and appreciate it very much. Ithink were we at that table read?
I did just one table read byany there? There are a whole bunch
of them in December. Were youthere in December? I just did the
one and I think it was foreight um for our most recent episode.

(17:11):
I think. Okay, so everybodywas, you know, masks and stuff.
Yeah, no, it was aweird one. No, I never
had the pleasure of of being withyou on set. But hello, they
had extraordinary read throughs where they did, uh like right at the beginning in
December, where we sat down rightat the beginning and read I think episodes

(17:34):
one through nine as they were,and then did it for the network and
it was like having two or threedays of like rehearsal and then reading through
the whole thing, and the onlything that was left outstanding was the last
episode and then um and then thatthe second wave of COVID or third wave
or whatever happened, and it wasjust a process. Wise, it was

(17:57):
fascinating to see the whole thing,how much it's changed, but to meet
everybody and see the whole story fromstart to finish altogether wild. It's great.
Well, now I'm jealous because no, now that I stop and think
about it, I realized I onlydid it the one in like probably March

(18:17):
or April, Like, yeah,that must have been amazing. Yeah,
that sounds really cool. Well,it's interesting, Tim, because you play
a character who you know, whenwe first we first meet him, I
don't remember which episode we first meethim in, but you know he's Sam's

(18:38):
boss Kyle, and um, heseems to really like Sam, and you
know, um does does this wholething. And then when we see when
this last episode, UM, weall I think, I don't think it
was just me. When you havethat conversation with Am and you're saying something

(19:02):
about the way he's talking, itwas boss. I think probably every single
person watching that episode at that momentwent oh, you know, like but
bro, that's not good. Youcan't talk to Sam that way. So
so you're not there that much.But it's when you're there it's really impactful,

(19:22):
isn't it. Eventually? Certainly?Yeah, yeah, yeah, I
have literally have to I have toask him. So like when we first
talked about you doing the show,and you're like, oh, yeah,
I'm on episode four and I'm onepisode eight, and I was like,
oh cool, you know. AndI have lots of friends who are actors
who appear on television shows, andthey'll post it on their social media or

(19:45):
whatever, and I'll think, oh, so in shows on that television show,
that's great. And then I'll watchthe show and be like, oh,
look they did such a great job. And then I'm watching episode eight
and I'm like, look, it'smy friend Tim. And then I'm like,
oh my god, Tim is beingmurdered in cold blood. And then
it's like, how how was itdifficult to keep the secret of what happened

(20:11):
to your character? Was it hardto sort of like not say anybody like,
yeah, I'm on the show,can't talk about what happens. Yeah,
I mean, look, you notthat bad. I'm not big posting
in social media all that stuff anyway. So you know, and this show
has been certainly well promoted, butI don't feel like it's one that's getting,

(20:32):
you know, all that much buzzto it. Unfortunately. I wish
it was getting more because I thinkit's so good. So it hasn't been
a thing where I've gotten a lotof questions that there were texts, live
texts coming in yesterday, people whosaid these same thing as you stay say.
They were like, I'm watching thePatient and uh, oh you know
that office scene, so it's exactlythe same experience. I saw that a

(20:57):
little bit yesterday when it first gotloaded up, I guess or whatever.
So yeah, you know, andyou know, we didn't know because we
scheduled you to come on. Ohyes, well we're going to talk to
Kyle. And I start watching andI and I text lindsay, have you
watched the episode yet? He's likeno, Like oh okay, so look

(21:19):
out. Yeah. I was verycareful with with Lindsay to try and be
you know, delicate about it.I was like, yeah, you know,
yeah, I'm not gonna you totallydid it. Yeah, no,
you you did a great job.I had no idea and then I was
suddenly like, oh no, yeah, the next victim on the show.
Um, But it was a gentledeath from that lovely actor. Donald's a

(21:42):
very nice man, and that wasThey all handled it very well, you
know. I mean, yeah,it's just part of the job. But
it's not the first time I've died. Oh so you died it elsewhere?
Oh yeah, Jesus, I've beenshot. Oh yeah, yeah, there's
it's Jake, you must I mean, how many times have you died?

(22:03):
We die, It's what we do. It's part of what we do,
Jake. Have you died? Uhyeah, yeah, tried a few times.
Have you been murdered? Uh yeah, sometimes quite horribly? Oh really
yeah? Who would who would murderthe Red Gig? Well no, the

(22:29):
Rebbie's never been murdered. But Iknow that's for the best me. I've
been murdered plenty of times. Wow. All right, maybe we'll do like
a side sort of comparison of likewho died the worst? Yeah? Yeah,
maybe? Is that what actors talkabout when they get together, of
like, all right, what's theworst way you died? Which snakes.

(22:53):
How about you? Oh I waskilled, like getting stuck in a room
as somebody cabbages. Yeah, Icould get out. I was on the
show called Game of Thrones. Nextthing you know, Oh yeah, I
was impaled by a dragon. Hey. My favorite piece of footage ever from
my career. I literally have iton my phone is when I got burned

(23:14):
to death because they let me dothe stunt and so you know, I
got I got a beautiful, likeslow motion shot of me on fire in
a movie called Courage under Fire,taking the title a little too literally,
but you know, wow, yeahthat was fun. Cool, that's incredible.
Yeah, it's fun. Now,Okay, when you're playing death as

(23:37):
an actor, like and I thinkthe supplies to both of you equally here,
Like what do you have to gothrough in order to do that?
Like do you do? You do? You really have to imagine dying and
like how do you how do youplay that? Like what do you do

(23:57):
to me? It's a bit moretechnical than than that. I mean,
it's just it has to be sortof carefully choreographed and stuff. You know.
M In the situation particular where you'regetting choked, you you're reliant,
very much on your your stunt coordinatorsand things like that, just to make
sure everybody's really clear on and wherethe camera is and what it's going to

(24:18):
look like, what they want,you know. So but then there's happy
little things that happen, um indeath. But like when I was doing
that, my shoe kicked off accidentallybecause I was, you know, struggling
so much, and we all lovedthat. So that that that I think
got kept. I didn't. It'sweird, Like I've only watched it once.
I don't like watching myself, asI told Lindsay, Um, so

(24:41):
I actually found myself physically resort ofresponding to it, like almost redoing it.
So there's something weird that happens.It kind of gets in your body.
It's a little bit um but yeah, it's an interesting it's an interesting
challenge. I mean, just thesimple thing of trying to look dead,

(25:06):
of looking blank in your eyes,of not breathing, of you know,
it's like it's an odd thing.Um And I was he was choking the
shit out of him, you know, like it was quite physical, and
then all of a sudden I haveto stop moving and stop breathing, you
know. In the next moment,and so that was honestly quite challenging.
But Chris Long bless his heart.I was like, man, I'm not

(25:29):
doing this very well and he said, no, no, no, don't
worry about it, mate, Ican freeze that up. It's all good.
Don't worry. And then I waslike, oh, right, yeah,
he can just freeze that part ofthe frame now. So oh yeah,
I think we see the shoe,don't we see the shoe laying there?
I think so. I think there'sa moment of seeing you laying there

(25:51):
from the perspective of the shoe.So it's kind of funny now to hear
that that wasn't supposed to happen.It just was a happy accent. It
just flew off in the struggle.So yeah, wow cool. Yeah,
I love that stuff. So,Jake, you play the Rebbie on the
show, and um, we've seenyou a few times in different episodes,

(26:17):
and I know, I think Ithink were without giving anything away, I
believe you all you appear again,I know, Jake, you appear again
later? Is that true? Ithink? So? Yeah, Okay,
you definitely shot stuff that would suggestthat would happen. Yes, okay,
all right, very good. Andby the way, we meant to say

(26:38):
this at the top of the episode. We've come up with sort of like
a safe word for both of youif if we act, we don't want
you to give away any spoilers.So if we accidentally ask you a question
in which you give away, youwould have to give away information that you're
not allowed to give away. Thesafe word is pastizio. All you have
to do is stulta. Yeah,yeah, yeah, good, And so

(27:03):
that that's the code word, gotit. So that was so great with
her story when she told you that, like pastia, that was so fun.
Yeah, I love that. Yeah. So I'm wondering, Um,
let's switch gears for a minute andtalk about like the Judaism. You know,
that's so prominent in the show,and it was it was really interesting.

(27:26):
Now, I actually I think Iread an article. I don't think
anyone told us this about how itjust kind of started off on the show.
You know, well, let's havehim be a Jewish therapist, and
then that really kind of blossomed anddeveloped as a major, you know plot
point. You know, um,not just that Alan is Jewish, but

(27:48):
you know what happens with Ezra andBeth and all the different layers of Judaism
that we see um in the show. And so you know, um,
your your role, Jake is therabbie like in some ways because you're Ezra's
rabbi, right, you're the orthodoxrabbi. Yeah, I think you're talking

(28:10):
about the There's a piece in theNew York Times right when it just came
out. I think that talked abouthow the Jay's sort of developed this and
it sort of grew out of theirorganic experience of I think Joel's dad is
a rabbi and they this really comesout of lived experience for them, I
think. And rather than be thisfeels like an exploration of like the battle

(28:37):
between Orthodoxy and liberalism, duking itout inside of a family, right,
and how how you deal with thosethings? And it's it could be Jewish,
it could be it could be anything, but it's more about, you
know, how do you deal witha set of rules that are very strict
all of a sudden showing up ina liberal environment, and how do you

(29:00):
fight those or do you fight those? And how does what does rebellion look
like between generations and all that stuff. And so when I remember when they
cast me and we were talking aboutit and was interesting. It's how much
the show has changed from page toscreen in the edit, and a lot
of things that have we shot thatnever quite got there. The point of

(29:27):
this story was that they said,look, we want to have this orthodox
rabbi come in, and yes,Ezra is being pulled in this direction,
and it would be easy as pieto be all fierce and honorable. And
you know, there's plenty of thatpulling in. There's plenty of that represented

(29:48):
in the story. This wants tobe the kind face of Orthodoxy. This
wants to be Hey, come onin, the water is warm. You
know, like, yes, thereare a lot of rules, but like,
yes, I know this is probablyan arranged marriage that's done through a
rabbitson is probably not super comfortable foryou, and you know, Java is

(30:11):
not probably what you had mind.And I know I'm speaking to a reform
a reform cantor, and I knowthis is difficult that being the case.
Look, this is a love match. This isn't just an arranged marriage.
They share a sense of humor,They care about each other. You guys

(30:33):
have obviously have a good marriage.Well, this marriage is based on love,
so you know, it's okay,and yeah, day cake is not
very tasty, but what are yougonna do? It's sort of a little
bit, yeah, a little bitof kind of mediating that with some kindness.
And they really talked about that kindof vibe being the thing, and

(31:00):
we shot a lot of the sceneswith that spirit in mind. And in
episode three when we have the weddingwhere it's a flashback and she's playing,
and it's like, hey, people, you know she's going to play,
and oh wait, she's going toplay. We don't have you don't have

(31:22):
women playing, says orthodox rabbi asnicely as possible, but still, you
know, listen, we don't dothis. Um. Whole congregation goes,
oh, oh, my perils andthey react quite badly because you know,
certain prejudices die very hard and theydon't accept it. And uh, let's

(31:45):
just say that was well, thatwas shot for episode ten, but that
was put into episode three and itwas it was presented very differently. All
of it is to say that thingscan move around and stories of all,
like the story can change and evolve. And this whole issue which is being
explored in this in the Patient isit has evolved from script to shooting,

(32:12):
to editing, to presentation. It'sit's changing. I think that's so interesting,
Jake, because you know, whenI think about like a TV show
like Unorthodox, which came out acouple of years ago on Netflix. Yeah,
and it really showed Orthodox Judaism asyou know, very much sort of

(32:35):
like that. Particularly, the menin that show are like one step below
gangsters essentially at certain points of itin terms of their sort of relentless pursuit
of sticking to the rules and beingin charge and everything. And so I
totally got your sort of the kindnessthat you're talking about, and it did.

(32:59):
It made it harder for me.I made it. I'll say it
made it more complicated for me tobe like, oh, it's these Orthodox
Jews just getting in the way tohave these reformed people trying to express their
love, right, I was like, well, he doesn't seem like a
bad guy. He's just trying tohelp out. I think that's why I
was conflicted. I think that's whyI was there. I think I was

(33:20):
there to be a shade of gray. I think I was there to be
in any argument. There's nuance shockingimpossible in this day and age to but
you know, orthodoxy is difficult,but there can But why has it survived
for thousands of years even now?There must be something worthwhile about it.

(33:44):
Otherwise, why would it be sookay? It's impossible to look at this
in a nine one kind of way. So maybe they pushed the Rebbie that
way to make it a little bitmore of a difficult I don't know.
I was thinking about the show thatyou guys did with Laura talking about the

(34:08):
journey of the wife and what sherepresented. I remember listening to that and
I was thinking, gosh, whatshe represents the fight and the rebellion is
the Rebbie is like the counterpoint ofthat. Yeah, yeah, And well,
if I may throw in, Ialso think that Jay's Live in the

(34:29):
Graves. I think that's what theywere. They excel. They are brilliant
at it. I mean, I'ma massive fan of the Americans, and
God, they do it so well. And I relate to what you're saying
in terms of for Kyle from theBoss, he very easily. And I
think, frankly, the way Isent him the tape was kind of douchey

(34:50):
boss. You know, it's sortof my stock character at this point,
um, you know, douchey,white guye boss. But they were careful
in the way they do erected itto not do that they wanted and I
thought that they I so appreciated thatdirection when I watched it last night,
because I don't think he was terribleto him. I don't think he was.

(35:14):
You know that that was the point, like slightly rude but didn't deserve
to die. Yeah, well,very well, Lindsey. Lindsey thought Kyle
had it coming, but you knowI did. I felt like, well,
from the moment Kyle sort of revealshimself, I'm like, all right,

(35:34):
Kyle, but that's a rules ofthe show. But that's a rules
of the show thing. That's that'sthat's a that's a that's person with trigger
point. That's person with no toleration, no trigger point. Anybody who crosses
him is going to get it.Yeah, but I have a central character.
But I didn't mean to knock usoff track. I think, no,
you're not your Kyle was Kyle isa Kyle wasn't a douche, He

(36:02):
wasn't horrible, And that is thepoint. Jay's right, Grays, and
they do it they right beautifully.They and Chris directed that way too,
right, and Kevin was very goodwith it too. By the way,
Kevin Brad I never worked with him. Yeah, and Sam doesn't do gray.
Sam is very black and white,he best. Sam is very rigid.

(36:27):
You follow my rules or you die, basically, um so, And
I think that's a beautiful thing thatthey're exploring here in particularly psychologically too,
that one session Alan has where hesays, what you are perceiving is not
necessarily what those people are intending orexperiencing, and I thought that was you

(36:53):
know, these are also in timeswhere we all are personalizing everything a great
yeah. So I just thought,you know, this was really good,
good stuff, and particularly for yourpoint of view, Stacy, I think,
especially rich you know turn he personalizeseverything, and you're right, he
is a black and white, rigidthinker, and people like me pay the

(37:16):
price. You know. Um I'mso glad you said that to him,
because Okay, I had a totalepiphany watching the show today, like suddenly,
like it hit me like a lightningbolt, that what I think this
show. I've now watched eight episodesof the show, and I think I
finally figured out what the show isabout, and it is about empathy,

(37:37):
and it's not just in this dayand age. Right now, I feel
like empathy is being sort of weaponizedor sort of marginalized. Everyone is looking
at it and being like, oh, empathy to sign a weakness. Empathy
to the sign of that. Andthere, I could there's a case to
be made. I think for somepeople that empathy is somehow a negative trait.

(37:59):
But the reality is that if ifKyle had just said to Sam in
the moment, hey, you know, the reason why I'm sending people back
to reinspect the restaurant again is becauseI feel like it's time they need to
do it, and I just workedit out so it could be that way.
If he came up with a decentexplanation and treated Zam like an equal

(38:21):
human being, he would not belying next to a dumpster dead. And
then you know, by the endof the episode. And I think that's
a really important point about empathy,which is that the opposite of empathy is
actually cold blooded murder. It isactually the total opposite. Right, if
you are not empathetic to a person, then there's nothing to keep them from

(38:43):
killing you. Actually, And solike today when I was like, oh,
okay, so Alan is finding empathyfor his son and under trying to
understand his religious choices. There's thatempathy. The son is trying to find
out what the why his father behavedwhere he didn't. That's empathy. But
then I was like, you know, if Gary had just been a little

(39:06):
bit more empathetic to Sam in howhe treated him, that's empathy too.
That would have been the thing thatcould have kept him alive in the end.
Okay, it's interesting. Yeah,Like and you know there was there's
a line Sam comes in one night. Sorry, Yeah, he comes in
one night, and Alan says tohim, thank you for asking how I'm
doing. I so appreciate that thatthat displays empathy. I forget it's within

(39:30):
the last couple of episodes because I'vewatched everything in the last forty eight hours
or so, so um and Ithink it was like four or five or
six or something. But it's whenhe comes in and Alan's a little shook
up because he's just had the conversationwith Elias, and Sam reads it on
him, and Alan actually says thatdisplays empathy. He's trying to eke out

(39:53):
any kind of empathy that he canget out of Sam because he thinks it's
the thing that will stop him fromkilling. That's his strategic well so far.
But you know, yeah, Ithink that the whole thing there is
that when you when they when Samlined up, once he spoke, you

(40:14):
know, I think the trigger pointwas you're doing everything great except for the
way you talked to your boss.Um. I think that was the trigger
point, and then you were adead man. After that, every everything
was everything after that was merely uh, just moving chess pieces around. I
do not think you could have said, and it wouldn't have mattered what you

(40:35):
said. That he was triggered andwe were going down the path, and
that was it. You offended himand it's over. I think at that
final moment, saying what is wrongwith you was probably not not super helpful.
But my favorite bit, and thisis the the the person putting on
a human suit attempt at empathy,which I love the best, is why

(41:00):
he leans over your body and attemptsto say Scottish. I thought that was
the best. He mangles it andgets all the words wrong, and that
he's just goes you know, yes, good dull but cottage right. So
funny little side story. I hadn'tread those scripts, did not know what

(41:20):
the he was doing, so Ihad no idea what was going on until
I saw that episode. I tothis, you know, to that minute,
you're like, wow, is hehaving a stroke? I don't know.
I know he's doing something that's inthe script and all of that,
but I never knew, never asked, it just was You probably didn't even
know he was speaking Hebrew at thattime, right, like he was just

(41:42):
saying shipperish, oh my good exactly. I was like, Okay, I
know this is in the script,but I'm just gonna live in mystery until
I see the show and it well, yeah, how would he know that?
Right? Like, he's only hadthese very few scenes with Sam,
and if you weren't part of theother filming, you wouldn't. I hadn't
read those pertinent scripts. I hadnot read those. I wasn't. So

(42:07):
you're there, You're there, deadon the ground, trying to look as
dead as possible. But additionally,along with that, you're also like,
what what is he doing? Likeyou're actually trying to figure it out exactly
exactly, but anything but the lastI love, The last thing that Sam

(42:31):
says to you is I didn't likewhen you read that letter out wow,
like and your and your face it'sjust like, you know, like sorry,
you know, like too late bythat point. Awesome, so awesome.
So I really there's been a lotof questions. Um. You know,

(42:55):
Lindsey and I are in um agroup on face book where there's so
many comments and questions about you know, the patient. There's a lot of
conversations about you know, the Judaismand Jake. We know you're not a
rabbi, but you're our makeshift rabbifor today. UM, right, yes,

(43:19):
Um, but you know, Iyou know, just like how the
how the Judaism fits in UM andhow it's how it's you know, relevant
to Um Alan, how it's relevantto Sam. You know, Sam like
made a point of picking a Jewishtherapist. It's so prominent in you know,
Allan's family, even though he's probablythe least observant of everyone in his

(43:44):
family. I mean maybe maybe hisdaughter Shoshana also, it's unclear, Um,
they have kind of Jewish names,even though Alan considers himself you know
pretty you know, not very religious. But Um, you like to people
ask you a lot of questions aboutthe Judaism, on the show, given
that you know you played the rabbidid since they do now, since they've

(44:07):
seen me in that beard. Yes, yeah, I had more Supermarket not
because well not the beard really getsI had more. The beard had more
fittings and work done than I did. It has its own representation. But

(44:30):
do you you know it's amazing givenyour you know, like your role,
like how do you feel like theJudaism kind of like fits in as a
whole without like you know, givinganything away that you know might happen later.
But um m m, I'm vergingon pisits here, but I will

(44:52):
Yeah, okay, But and that'san interesting I'm glad you asked that because
thematically it's interesting, and the whyis interesting, and the the it tracks
through. Well, there's one thingthat these guys right better than anybody,
and that's gray. And the otherthing is that they're well thought through and

(45:14):
thorough and if you look carefully atnothing, all I can say is that
there are no gestures that are wastedin this story. Little things. That's
I think that's a nice way tosay it is. And I don't know
any gestures, by the way,I'm going to say for the record I
never read and I never read ten, so I have no idea, but

(45:35):
I I know it the way they'resetting us up and how brilliant they are.
Yeah, there's there's a payoff.I think that what you're asking about
Stacy feels like it's integral to me, just instinctually, and it's going to
be interesting stuff coming. I can'ttell you the answer, but there's the
question is relevant. And you've beentracking the whole story, a dialectic between

(46:04):
orthodoxy and liberalism, between mothers andsons and between fathers and sons and forgiveness,
and you've been looking at a storyof you know, A line which
jumped out at me, and thisisn't from an inside baseball point of view,
but just a line that really kickedmy ass that I thought was incredible
was him realizing when he's with DavidEllen career in his own he's having his

(46:28):
own therapy, his sort of momentof realization. I think this was his
last episode. He says, I'vebeen more compassionate to a serial killer than
I have to my own son.Yeah, okay, I have to do
something about this. So it's likethat's like a hinge point of learning.
Of what why am I in thisroom? That's probably one of the reasons

(46:51):
why he is in the room,and that doesn't give anything away, that's
just an inside reason. Yeah,because Ezra has a similar realization. I
love those scenes, you know,Um that he shares with Fava that he
hasn't been I'm not going to sayit right Hashem Yerrahim, which means that
basically hasn't been like a good son. He hasn't shown grace to his father,

(47:16):
you know, when his father wasbeing difficult and his mother was dying,
so they both kind of dug theirheels in and m got really stubborn
and rigid. There's that word again, rigid as Sam is being. So
I like finding all of those littleconnections. Sam is rigid, you know,
he's in the way he thinks abouthis life. I'm sorry to say

(47:37):
this Orthodoxy is rigid um in theway it sets up you know, rules
and things like that, and thenboth you know Alan and yeah, yeah,
in in duality in all of thesein the Orthodoxy, there's a duality

(47:58):
of rigidity and needful structure. Inthere's a duality and a lot of the
thing a lot of the things youjust mentioned that list are all things that
have two parts to each of them. And that is what this story is
so good at doing. It's sayingit's exploding sort of the yes or no

(48:21):
of it. It's explored. It'sexploding a lot of binary reality ways of
looking at either relationships or faith orthis or that or the other and saying,
it's a sliding scale. If youhere's a counter artures. These guys
are extremely good at writing argument andcounter argument so that you look at a
character and say, ah, it'sfifty one forty nine. I'm not sure

(48:42):
how I feel. Yeah, they'vedone this again and again with so many
in big ways and in little ways, and they're very careful about how they
craft it. And it's it's that'sthat is integral to all the things.
I think that list you just mentionedis a great list of all the themes

(49:02):
that they did that with in thisstory in twenty two minute episodes or twenty
four minute episodes. I mean,like, so glad it's fast. I
mean just think about choice for them, you know, like when they were
doing it and they were mapping itout and they up half hour episodes,

(49:22):
I just thought, wow, that'sso novel, you know, such an
interesting, brave choice. Got it, But it's a bold choice. It
is it is definitely uh. Iwould say a lightning rod among the fan
base of this show, which isthat a number of people really appreciate the

(49:43):
short length and marvel at it tosay like, wow, I actually watched
their fully a gripping, dramatic televisionseries in twenty two minutes, and there
are I would say, probably twiceas many people who are like, I'm
going to stab someone myself because I'mso angry that this episode it is so
short. Yeah, they want Yeahis that a good Is that a good

(50:07):
thing? Is that a good kindof stabue? I want more? Or
is that it is bad kind ofstab you? I'm gonna find you and
do bad things to you? Kindof stuck? Yeah, probably a little
book. Yeah, let's say.Um, so, so, Jake,
I want to ask you you arecurrently I said, this is my introduction.

(50:27):
You're you're an Atlantic fellow at theGlobal Brain Health Institute. Yeah,
um, which sounds really I meanlike that alone is pretty impressive, Like
all of those words strung together andthat order is really I know, it's
crazy. My cousin when I wasa kid, my cousin used to have
this thing like they mocked me atthe institute, you know that was like

(50:47):
he always teased me about that,And now I finally get to say to
him, now I have an institutethat I'm a part of which I can
be mocked at. I can't waitto be like they up to me at
the institute. Can you talk alittle bit about what you what you do
there, like what's that? Like? What's that about? And then also

(51:09):
do you see any relationship between thekind of work you're doing there and the
exploration of mental illness that's on theshow? Kind of Actually that's a good
point, yes, they do.First, what this is is this is
the GBHI. This is up inSan Francisco and Dublin. There's this place

(51:34):
called the Global Brain Health Institute,which is built on as part of the
Atlantic Fellowship and they're studying equity inbrain health. And there's a cohort of
fellows about fifteen people here and fifteenin Ireland. And every year they come
together and it's neurologists and psychiatrists andsome artists of different stripes and they all

(51:58):
get together and for the year justsort of work on equity in brain health.
That's the REMIT, and that meanslearning a lot about neurology. It
means learning a lot about psychiatry,learning a lot about dementia, learning a
lot about creativity and the nature ofit and how all these things fit together
with a purpose of trying to understandmore about how to make the world a

(52:24):
fairer place for people with brains inthat the people who have developmental conditions,
or people who have conditions that comeon with age, both of these things
and trying to you know, towork on equity in that space. So

(52:46):
there's a lot of work on dementiaand Alzheimer's, an FTD and phasia and
add and dyslexia, and you know, neurological conditions of the mind that affect
a lot of people. And thecool thing about it is it's from all
over the world. My working withpeople from Colombia and Peru and South Korea

(53:07):
and just Ethiopia and Nepal and likeeverywhere. It's wonderful, Like it's there's
it's a real global place, andso all of these people everybody has brains.

(53:29):
So it's like, well, howdo we deal with this and how
do these things happen in different countries, and what are the economic realities of
it, and what are the youknow, So it's a lot of different
kinds of things. I'm here atthis place because of a play that I
wrote called Unraveled, and which isabout a woman who came down with primary

(53:51):
progressive aphasia. Her name is doctorAnne Adams, and she all of a
sudden, at the age of fiftythree, became an extraordinary painter out of
nowhere. And she started painting Ravel'sBillro measure by measure, and she did
it perfectly and beautifully, and itwas this extraordinary painting, and it was

(54:13):
like, where did this come from? She wasn't particularly good at painting before
this, and then she had galleryshowings and then she got better. And
then she painted pie, and thenshe painted what a migraine looks like,
and she became quite the artist.And she just grew and grew and grew,
and she had a phasia, gotworse and worse and worse and worse,
and the symptoms, you know,showed men. Finally they diagnosed her,

(54:36):
and it turns out here's the kicker, is that Ravel who composed Billro,
which everybody knows it's quite a popularpiece of music. It's been around.
It was written in nineteen twenty eight. He in thank you very much,
and it's never gonna go because it'sa horrible hair worman this is going

(54:57):
to make it worse, so sorry, not all right, well key,
there you go. He had heas a composer. One thinks of him
as very He's an impressionist. He'swatery, he flows all over the place.

(55:19):
Balro is a rigid, repetitive,perseverative piece of music which does not
variate three hundred and fourteen measures.It is seven times exactly the same melody.
All that variates is the orchestration,which is purely It just a creates
more sound as it goes correct exactly, and it just grows and grows and

(55:39):
grows and grows until there's like onekey change at the end and then we're
out. It is a mathematical it'san a tude, it's a mathematical precision.
It's a very cold, structured pieceof music. And yet it has
been used as a metaphor for sex. It has been used torfil. Indeed,

(56:00):
it has been used both Derek runningdown the Beach in ten it has
it's been an erotic piece of music. It's it's so primal to so many
people for a hundred years. Hepremiered it, and he knew it was
the headline of his epe. Heknew was the headline of his obituary as
soon as he wrote it, andhe hated it. And he also said,

(56:21):
there is no music in this atall. None. This isn't this
is a this is an attude.Stop it. Here's the kicker. He
was diagnosed with primary progressive of phasia, the same disease that Anne had,
and he died exactly he got that. He did that at fifty three.

(56:43):
He got it at fifty Fee composedblero at fifty three, and he had
a primary progressive of phasia at thesame point that Anne had when she composed,
when she did her painting, andhe was dead seven years later,
as was she. Wow. Wow, these two story It's magical because these

(57:07):
two pieces of art are calling toeach other across one hundred years, and
they prove that neuroplasticity exists. Theyprove that some really beautiful and important concepts
about what is possible when you havedementia is exists. They tell a very
strong story of hope and uh,anyway, so I'm here because I'm working

(57:32):
on this play and uh, youknow, we'll be premiering it later in
twenty three with Elba. Yeah,we'll be doing We've done the play online
and uh it's you know, wedid it there, but then we'll be
later uh San Francisco, the UCSFand nice. Great, so you're up

(57:54):
there, okay, great, Yeah, And so we've been premiering it later
this year with a Pinny orchestra playingBilero at the end of it, because
that's the phenomena. So, likethat is really cool that so when you
when you're exploring something like that,like that is sort of this incredible,
bright, shining cloud that comes outof what is actually a deadly disease that

(58:20):
is a slow degradation of the brain. I think, and I'm just curious,
you know, in terms of thethings that you see and you deal
with in the the Global Brain HealthInstitute, do you ever deal with the
darker side of mental illness that iscomparable to the patient ie, Like,

(58:40):
for example, right now, Sam'scompulsion is getting worse on the show and
is definitely starting to increase both inintensity as well as number of victims and
it seems like his condition is degrading. And we talked early you're in the
episodes of our show about the ideaof like benevolent creativity versus malevolent creativity.

(59:07):
If, if, if this storyof Unraveled is a version of benevolent creativity,
are you looking at in your workthere at malevolent creativity, things where
mental illness actually descends into a darkerplace. Well, okay, I'll answer

(59:28):
your question with two points. Oneis a question. Number one is that
what do the second one? First, Bruce Miller, who is sort of
the is a guy up here.Doctor Bruce Miller is a guy up here,
said if he could go into thefield all over again, he would,

(59:50):
if he could start now, hewould go into exploring what psychosis is,
because that is a world nor logicallywhere nothing is technically damaged, but
we don't know what's going on,and all of these symptoms go into this
bucket and it's like a generalized wordthat means a lot of things, and

(01:00:13):
we're not specific enough, and therecould be all kinds of treatments and all
kinds of things we could do,but we're at the very beginning. We're
at the foothill of that mountain rightnow, because we don't know what it
really means yet, and this nextcentury is going to be a time when
hopefully we'll discover a lot of thosethings. The way we do brain is

(01:00:34):
and that is a particular place.So that's thing number one. I would
say. Number two I would ask, and this is a question, what
condition do you think Sam has?Yeah, I'm just thinking that, right,
I'm going to turn to Fortunately Ihappen to have a psychoanalyst right here
on staff. Yes, I'm goingto turn it over to thee Oh oh,

(01:00:55):
oh, you don't mean me right, Sorry, Okay, well psychologist.
I'm not a psychoanalyst. Frank Frankwas a psychoanalyst. But no,
I don't think that. And Ijust want to say, like I'm I'm
being interviewed tomorrow and one of thequestions that they're asking me for his news

(01:01:15):
program is you know about mental illnessand true crime and how it's all portrayed.
And I'm like, oh, becareful with that question, is what
I'm going to tell them tomorrow.But so I think that I don't think
that. I don't think we canthink about Sam as having you know,

(01:01:37):
like we don't want to give mentalillness a bad name. A lot of
people have mental illness, and itmay be that some serial killers have some
mental illness, but not everyone withmental illness is a serial killer, right,
and we all have some degree ofmental illness. We all have.
You know, I don't know oneperson who hasn't struggled with some form of
depression or anxiety, or sessions orsubstance abuse. Like you know, we're

(01:02:00):
none of us escape unscathed. Butum so, I I understand that Sam
has these compulsions, but I don'teven particularly see him as like it's not
OCD. He doesn't have OCD.He might have. I think he's got
some personality disorders that make him thinkin this kind of rigid way and make

(01:02:22):
him not very friendly and you knowwhere aggression is like the primary mode of
you know, dealing with the world. But um yeah, that's my answer.
But okay, what's interesting. Iwas just gonna say, what's interesting

(01:02:43):
goes. I'm sorry, but theBruce Miller comments that we don't understand psychosis,
like that's that's exciting for me becauseup till now, every person from
the psychological field that we've had onis like, Nope, their compulsive.
It's at that sentence, there thisway till they die. There's no way
out. And you're the first personI've heard say, well, maybe we

(01:03:07):
don't understand what's going on, andif we did understand that better, maybe
there is a treatment for it,which I think is an interesting state.
But Sam is not psychotic. Samis not psychotic. So psychotic in general
that works. Psychosis means out oftouch with reality. It's hallucinations, it's
delusions, you're living in your ownworld. That's what we associate with maybe

(01:03:29):
schizophrenia, things like that. Soyeah, so Sam is not schizophrenics,
right right, Yeah, Sam isnot psychotic. He is very aware.
He does not have hallucinations. Hepersonalizes everything, but he is fully in
touch with reality. I think thathe's more of us on the like a

(01:03:51):
sociopathic. You know that he mayand he may understand that what he's doing
is wrong, but I'm not surethat he cares. He feels very like
vilified that this person deserves to die. But Jake, what were you going
to say about the whole the wholepremise of the show is, isn't the

(01:04:12):
whole premise of the show is somebodywho seemingly has no empathy or no capacity
for empathy, looking at his situationand saying I would like to get better.
Yeah, that's the whole reason forthis that the show exists, is
this is an exploration of the unof the impossible attempting to do the improbable.

(01:04:35):
Or maybe it's the other way around. Yeah, but he's it's not.
I mean, he's not going tolike get empathy. I don't.
I don't think. I don't thinkit's gonna work. That's my prediction.
He's he's not. He might wantit, he might mimic it. The
whole college thing was a mimic ofempathy. He does not really feel empathy.

(01:04:57):
He looked at Alan, he goes, I like you, I've never
killed people I like before, butI'm gonna have to do what I have
to do. Like, there isno empathy there, guys, now,
but you were there for the endof the show. Maybe I'm wrong,
but I will say lips or seal. But I think that's what makes him
so compelling. I mean, youknow, that's what's so excited about these

(01:05:18):
next two episodes, Like where isthis going to go? You know?
Yeah, but you don't think thatthere's any capacity in him to change.
No, I think, yeah,this is what I've been dealing with the
whole series, Jake. I'm tellingyou. I think, like, but
what if they found somebody who couldtalk to him and like, no,

(01:05:39):
forget it, it's over now.Could he learn to control his impulses.
Maybe, but he's not going toget emp I don't think he's going to
get empathy. I think there's youknow, you get to this age and
he still doesn't have empathy. Youcan't just like find empathy. That's just

(01:06:00):
people can disagree. Well, yeah, but I don't think he's gonna stop.
Could he stop being a serial killer. I think he could learn to
control his impulses. I do likehe didn't even try. Maybe maybe,
like it would take really a tremendousamount of work. Like yesterday's episode,

(01:06:23):
he didn't go through his whole process, like Kyle pissed him off and then
he followed him after work and thenhe killed him, Like he really sped
up that process. It was veryimpulsive. He might be able to learn
how to control his impulses, butI don't think he will have empathy.

(01:06:44):
The thing about the death of Kyleand I just want to say this is
I think unlike his other murders,which was I was affronted and therefore I
stood in that affront, and thenI decided that the way to resolve that
affront is for me a hunt thatperson down and kill them. I saw
Kyle's death slightly differently, which is, he views Kyle is in the midst

(01:07:09):
of doing something that is unethical andcriminal, and therefore he looks at killing
Kyle as a positive act. Thatis, like, I'm actually saving the
world from bad guy Kyle and hisdefrauding food inspectors scheme, which granted is
a bit of a reach, butstill I think that's what he thought he

(01:07:32):
was doing. Okay, it's alittle bit of reach, but I think
he thought he was performing a publicservice of like, you're welcome, everybody,
I killed this bad guy for you. So he has a very strong
sense of right and wrong. Ithink you're right. I think it's it's
completely you know, that'sh it crazy. But he does think right and wrong.
But but I also think that youare right. The difference in this

(01:07:55):
killing in my killing is we seethe moment come out and get in my
car. He happens to be inhis car. He looks over and it's
almost like this look on his faceof like, yeah, I'm gonna do
this, I'm gonna follow him.You know, it's it's you know,
do you know what I mean thatmoment? Yeah, yeah, he just
he wasn't waiting in the car forme to come out. I come out,

(01:08:17):
get in my car. He seesit. He's like, yeah,
yeah, I think, okay,yeah, maybe I got enough time.
Did he already have the gloves onat that point? No, he's just
in his car. We don't know. I think we don't know. I
think he has good gloves with him. I may have to go back and
look. Yeah, that's an interestinginteresting If he has the gloves on,
then the decisions already even made.Yeah, good point, very valid point.

(01:08:42):
Wow, And does he carry thegloves all the time? You know
these are I thought? I don'tremember, yep, I do. I
do want to say before we end, I know we're getting towards the end
here. But there's one burning questionbecause I I pulled people on Facebook and
read it and um, what doyou what questions do you have for the

(01:09:03):
rabbie or Kyle? And everybody wantsto know if Kyle was really taken a
bribe. Do you think Kyle wastaking bribes? I do not. I
actually I made the choice that Ido not think Kyle was okay. I

(01:09:27):
think I think that there were Um, look, you know, we all
do our what we figure out forour for our characters and all that stuff.
Sure, I think that there isdealmaking going on. I don't know
that it's always money. I thinkthat it's also about like I think sometimes
it's it's about fairness. Sometimes it'slike I'm gonna do this for you now

(01:09:48):
and you're gonna do this for melater. I don't know that I felt
that it was strictly a cash transaction, but um, you know, And
I never asked the guys what theythought. U Chris, I don't think
Chris was. I don't think Chris, give me, gave me a definitive
answer on the day about whether ornot I was I was or not.

(01:10:09):
I think that they liked the graves, they liked being an open question.
But in my mind, you know, and maybe that's just me being still
but so based on that, thenyou're annoyance with Sam, your Kyle's annoyance
forgive me, correct Kyle's annoyance withSam as you're standing next to a not
so overflowing dumpster, is just becausehe's wasting your time, not because he

(01:10:33):
has bound out your criminal scheme.Correct frankly, because and I did not
play it that that that I hadbeen discovered. I played it and felt
it that it was like, God, damn it, what is wrong with
you? You know? And I, frankly, I think it's there in
the writing, and I think it'swhat they were wanting. Yeah, it's

(01:10:56):
just like, oh, for sake, you know. Um. Yeah,
And again there's an innocent moment thathe never would have thought for us an
instant would end in his death.You know, these are things moments that
we have in our day to daylife where we get annoyed with people.
He's his boss, and he's justsort of said, you can't talk to
your boss this way, you know. So that's that's the way I millennials.

(01:11:24):
Sorry, what are you gonna do? Damn millennials? All right,
case closed, everybody, We foundout the final mystery of Yeah, that
Kyle's case is definitely closet. Actually, we have yet to see any kind

(01:11:45):
of investigation of murders and all thatstuff. So I don't know where that's
going and if we'll what we're goingto find out. I can't wait to
see, you know, But Idon't know that they look at it as
being important to the to what we'redealing with. You know, it may
be a little bit off subject intheir minds, you know. The the
uh. The only thing we've seenis is um Ezra putting posters up.

(01:12:06):
That's the only indication we have thatanyone's looking for him at this point.
And in Alan's mind of the policerolling up and finding you know, that's
all Alan's so yeah, yeah,all right, I guess we're gonna have
to wait for the final two episodes. UM, Jake and Tim, thank
you both so much for joining us. This has been so informative and so

(01:12:27):
helpful and so fun um as wehave a great time talking about serial killers
and mental illness, UM and thelack of it. Thank you both so
much for being with us. Wereally appreciate it. Yeah, thank you
so much. Super a lot offun. Take care. Let's see you
guys. So that was Jake andTim UM talking about Um being the Rebbie

(01:12:56):
and Kyle m who doesn't make itthrough even the whole episode. That was
amazing. I mean, you knowit's funny too, because if you remember
when we were sort of talking abouthaving Jake and Tim on you you were
like, you were like, whodoes Tim play? And I said,

(01:13:18):
he plays Kyle and like who's Kyle? What it was Kyle? I don't
even know who Kyle is. AndI was like, I think he's the
boss, and you were like,oh, yeah, I wonder what happens
to him? Well, Hm,funny story. Funny story about Kyle.
Yeah, behind a dumpster. Yeah, with one shoe on. Nah.

(01:13:42):
That was amazing that. That wasalmost my favorite part was hearing about how
the shoe came off accidentally, andbecause I very much remember that cut at
the end where you see him layingthere like from the perspective of the shoe.
So that was great. I lovedhearing about that. That is the
kind of thing that happens all thetime when you're doing stuff. I don't

(01:14:03):
know if it happens in your lifeoften, but it happens to meet constantly
where I will make a mistake andthen I'll be like, oh, shoot,
that's not what I wanted. Andthen I'll be like, oh wait,
actually that was not bad, youknow, like it's the kind of
accident that you could never plan,but then as soon as you do it,
you're like, it becomes this iconicthing, and I'm sure they focused

(01:14:24):
on right away. I also lovedhearing about how when Sam was doing Cottish
that Tim had no idea what hewas saying that is incredible and had to
play dead through that. Right,Okay, let's talk through this for a
second. Yeah, when you're playingdead, ostensibly you are attempting to do

(01:14:48):
it in a way in which nolife is in your body whatsoever, which
which sounds totally simple, Like Idon't think anybody listened to this to be
like, yes, I was completelyunfamiliar with the concept of what ted looks
like. But but what I'm sayingis to actually do that, to commit
to complete and total stillness actually takesan incredible amount of effort to show that

(01:15:12):
you have no life in your body. So you're you're probably focusing all of
your mental and physical energy into tryingto convey that as best you can.
And while you're in the middle ofdoing that, which takes a tremendous amount
of focus, suddenly a person isstanding over you, speaking in a language
that you have no idea what they'resaying, right, and weren't expecting it.

(01:15:33):
Weren't expecting it. It's like Jewishnow, yeah, right, And
so I like, yeah, Imean the effort of like not trying to
suddenly be like opening his eyes andbe like, what the hell are you
doing? Man? Is fairly amazing. Maybe he did do that and just
didn't tell us. I think presumablypresumably there was more than one take,

(01:15:57):
but I mean, I mean,it seems like there were probably several.
But also though you know, okay, I was reading this article with Don
don All this morning, and hewas talking about what it is like to
act like you're strangling people, andhe was saying something that I found I

(01:16:20):
found incredibly fascinating. So this isthe other side of the tim story,
is that. So he's quoted basicallyin this article with Vanity Fair as saying
that it is an incredible amount ofphysical effort in your face and in your
sort of like upper arms and inyour chest. Right, you're trying to

(01:16:42):
convey as much physical effort as possible, but below your elbows and your hands,
you cannot really you can't do anything. Yeah, you have to leave
because even you know, slight pressureon someone's neck can be very traumatic and

(01:17:04):
can be very disconcerting. And sowhen Tim was referring in the interview to
the idea of working with the fivechoreogra for that's part of what they're doing
is how to make it look asreal as possible and yet at the same
time make sure that it's totally safe. And so what Donald was saying in
this interview was basically that he waslike acting its brains out on you know,

(01:17:28):
everything above the elbow, but thenbelow the elbow he has to leave
it completely lifeless so that doesn't causeany stress to the person he's strangling,
and that it was and he alsosaid that he was unaware in order to
get into a headspace, right ofwhich you're like, Okay, now I'm
going to play a serial killer whois murdering people, Right, so you

(01:17:51):
had all of the physical effort thatit actually takes to actually strangle a person.
Not that I've ever done this kindof research for foreign person, but
you've been flagged now by the FBI. I know I'm gonna get a call.
I'm totally they're gonna check my Googlesearch. The whole thing. But
anyway, you know, he wasunaware at the time of like the sounds

(01:18:15):
he was making, or like thefaces he was making, or like,
you know, they had him doseveral different takes where they're like, Okay,
do one where you're more sort ofremorseful, Do one where you're more
sort of angry. Do one whereyou're confused, you know, different facial
expressions and ideas of how you stranglea person with emotional with different emotional changes

(01:18:36):
behind it. And they asked him, they said, okay, looking at
back at it now, when youwatch it, which one did they pick?
Yeah? And he was like,you know what, I have no
idea. I don't know which oneit was. I don't know what I
was acting in that moment because he'sso in the moment of just trying to

(01:18:58):
be there, present and physically andemotionally present that he's like, I can't
tell. I can't tell what Iwas thinking in that moment because I was
just so into it. I gotlost in the in the playing of it.
Wow. Yeah, I know though, right, totally, Well,
And that's I think that what's sogreat about talking to both of these guys

(01:19:24):
and so illuminating is they both havethese unique experiences of like what it's like
to be an actor and to reallysink yourself into a role, right,
Like you know, clearly Jake isnot an actual rabbi. He has no

(01:19:44):
clerical experience that we're aware of,right, and yet he's got to play
this part that seems not just trueto its authenticity representing the community that he
comes from, but also in termsof the nuances of like no, no,
this is the friendly Orthodox Jew rabbi, which is complicated. So he's

(01:20:09):
he's gotta they've got to really beable to be deep inside the role in
a way that it seems totally naturaland authentic. But that requires a lot
of research, and I think italso requires a lot of imagination to really
to be that thing. In thesame if you're Kyle being strangled to death

(01:20:31):
behind the dumpster, you've got tobe able to and like those guys,
both of those guys were so casualabout oh, yeah, I've died a
million times. You know, Iget killed every time, you know,
like snakes and whatever. Yeah,I've got the face of a guy who's
going to die before the episode's over. And U but like you know,
you you still you gotta convincingly playthose things, and so it requires a

(01:20:58):
real commitment. You can't just belike, well, I'm gonna I'm gonna
go half as half ass this destinyand I'll be right back, you know,
right right. Well, I hadI had no idea first of all
that um Chris Long had um anAustralian accent. I was trying to figure
out what what Tim was doing there, but also um that they can just
like you know, freeze the frame, you know, which, of course

(01:21:24):
why not, but um, yeah, So it's interesting. I mean,
this is the this is the question, and I think it's something that we're
going to explore in our next episode, yes, the final episode of Psychoanalyzing
the Patient, in which we willbe able to explore a little bit.

(01:21:45):
How much of a show's um poweris about the acting performances, you know,
and like what you've got in thecamera, and then how much of
it is what you can do inpost, either through editing or through visual
effects or for sound effects or whatever. How much storytelling do you rely upon

(01:22:13):
and where where do you give itup? So, like, let's say
so for you know, according toTim, it was difficult to act dead
and Chris Lorens like, I gotyou in post. Don't worry about it.
I've done this before, So maybethis is the kind of thing we
can ask yeah on our next episode. Yeah. I also, um,
you know, really appreciated Jake's perspective. He's doing this thing right now,

(01:22:36):
which is just kind of interesting andtimely, you know that he's you know,
doing this fellowship. I don't knowif that was the right word,
but um, and talking about mentalhealth, you know. And so there's
you know, coming off of thisshow where you know, he's not dealing

(01:22:57):
directly on the show with mental healthissues, but you know, that's a
lot of what the show is about, right therapy and you know what does
or doesn't Sam have. But Ithought that led to a really interesting discussion
that we had then about you know, mental health, and and I got
to use a little my psychology chopsthere and absolutely, but yeah, so

(01:23:19):
that was that was cool. Yeah, And you know, I mean I
will just say generally people do notsay like, oh, you know what,
we need somebody to talk about mentalhealth, Let's go talk to these
actors, you know what I mean, Like that's not usually how that works.
But I really admire Jake for notonly being willing to explore these ideas

(01:23:43):
in art, but really taking itto the next level by meeting with all
of these representatives of countries from aroundthe globe to really find new ways to
connect with people and hopefully work withthem to make an impact on humanity as
a whole and the mental health issuesthat are out there. I think it's

(01:24:05):
super cool and really really interesting forsure. For sure. Well, well,
our time is up. Looks likewe'll have to see you next session
on Psychoanalyzing the Patient. Bye bye.