"Charlie" w/ Nathan Barr

This week we dive into all things music with The Patient's score composer, Nathan Barr.
From Straw Hut Media

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
Straw Media. Okay, so we'regoing to recap this episode six, which
is called Charlie, and it beginsthe next morning, the day after Sam
has killed Elias. You see Candiceoutside with Sam telling him that she almost

(00:23):
called nine one one and she's ather wits end, and then she tells
him not to give up on therapy. She's so mad at him, but
it seems a little I don't know, I'm not compelled by her anger.
In that moment, you see Samgathering tools it looks like to dispose of
Elios, and he's in and outof the room with the jackhammer and all

(00:46):
of these things. Then we cutto Alan having a make belief session with
his dead therapist Charlie. You caneven hear the jackhammer in the background.
It's a very cool scene, bythe way, the setup and everything like
that. Alan suspects that there's stilla conscience in there inside Sam. He

(01:06):
thought he was starting to connect withhim. Clearly he hasn't though, and
Charlie mentions the word empathy. Alanalso remembers a moment that his patient was
asking about his wife's funeral, andthere's a brief conversation about a Jewish funeral.
Then back to the basement, Samangrily comments to Alan, well,

(01:27):
I guess I'm one of those guyswho buries people in their abasement. Thanks
a lot. So he's angry atAlan for not helping him more, and
Sam tells Alan, now it's yourturn. There's a whole ritual of unlocking
Alan and relocking him back up inthe other room. Maybe they've done that

(01:49):
before. Sam hands Allen the shoveland tells him to start digging. Sam
leaves to go get some more tools, I think, And during this digging,
Alan has a lot of visions.It's hard to know what these really
mean, but we see some Holocaustvictims in captivity. We see Ezra kissing
a Bible. We see Alan walkingwith a colleague and he sees a poster

(02:15):
with some Nazi propaganda on it.We see Alan putting out a Habdalah candle
in wine and hearing the sizzle,and we see Alan imagining himself, imagining
himself in a gas chamber. Thenback to the make belief therapy session,
where he tells Charlie that he's runningout of foot cream and a rhythmia medicine,

(02:38):
So maybe that's important Somewhere down theline, Sam returns and Alan suggests
that he should consider not bearing thebody, but leaving Elias outside so the
family knows what happens to him.He talks a bit about the ritual surrounding
a Jewish funeral. Sam is worriedabout it being traced back to him.

(03:00):
He talks about fingerprints and carpet fibersand things like that, and Alan tells
Sam, you know those things arereally highly unlikely. He tells him to
take the blind fall, the blindfoldoff of Elias, trying to convince him
to get in touch with his empathy, and Sam ultimately agrees to not bury
him. And when Sam goes top Alan quickly writes a note and shoves

(03:27):
this note deep into Elias's mouth.The note says Sam rest rist i nsp
like Sam restaurant inspector, and thenunder it it says sosh for Shoshanna as
Comma, Dad loves you, Sohe's also saying he loves you to Shoshana

(03:49):
and Ezra. It's very quick.He takes the note, he shoves it
into Elias's mouth and sits back down, and then we see Sam come out
of the bathroom he's looking at Alan, because Alan looks a little agitated and
probably breathing heavily. He wraps upthe body in a blanket and drags it

(04:10):
outside to put in the back ofhis truck. The scene ends with a
vision of Beth and the synagogue singingthe song not by My. Yeah,
so that was a really interesting episode, and you know, we had that,
you know, really intense violent episodein episode five and now episode six,

(04:33):
I would say that it almost endswith some hope, you know,
like he the note got you know, out, and it ends with you
know, Beth singing and that thatsong that she's singing for those of you
who might not be aware of it, not by my, not by power.

(04:56):
There's just like a few lines Iactually wrote this down and I'm not
going to s them, but itgoes not by might, not by power,
but by spirit alone. Shall weall live in peace? It's so
it's a very interesting way to endthis episode about a serial killer, right
with this kind of hopeful song.But before we got to that, though,

(05:17):
I have to say, there wasa lot of darkness in this show
in particular, and like, Idon't know how you felt watching it,
but for me, this episode wasdefinitely like, Okay, I no longer
necessarily feel so sorry for Sam becausehe's kind of he's kind of a bully
through this episode, you know,and like the stuff that in the previous

(05:42):
episodes where maybe you were like,well, maybe he's just misunderstood, you
know, maybe he's not that bada serial killer. You know, maybe
it's maybe they did deserve it,right, And then all of a sudden
you're like, actually, he's kindof kind of cruel and also has you
can tell that he doesn't have alot of regard for human life. And

(06:04):
the thing with the body at theend, Stacy, you know how you
were saying that you felt hopeful thatthe body got out. I felt the
opposite because the way he is justdragging Elias across that gravel, like he's
just like a salmon that he justcaught off off the ocean and threw it
on the boat, you know whatI mean. I'm like, oh God,

(06:25):
that note's going to come out.You know, he's going to throw
the body in the truck and seethe note and then it's all over.
So I was definitely not like,oh great, the body's out, Everything's
gonna be okay. I was like, Ah, what's gonna happen now?
I mean, there was a lotof speculation on the Facebook group that we're

(06:45):
in about whether the note was,whether Sam was going to find the note,
whether the note, you know,the medical examiner would find the note.
You know, so what was goingto happen there? And I mean,
I will say that although Sam agreed, I didn't see a whole lot
of empathy there. He you know, he wasn't. You saw absolutely no,

(07:11):
he was devoid of feeling in thewhole episode. I don't know if
you noticed that he was very blankthe whole episode, and even during that
conversation, he was just like justblank, like okay, I'll do that,
that's best for the family. Butthere was no emotion connected to those
words at all. So no,I don't I don't have any illusions that

(07:34):
Alan has impacted his empathy. Butbut he convinced him, So I don't
know. I want to be hopeful. I want to really think that sure
that the note gets out. Sointerestingly enough, when we're talking about empathy,

(07:54):
I thought the thing that was reallyexciting in this episode that had not
previously happened before was the introduction ofAlan's therapist Charles played by David Alan Greer,
Charlie, and now all of asudden, we're in a therapy session
inside a therapist mind because as wealso learned, Charlie, it's no longer

(08:20):
living and this whole thing is imagined. And Okay, so here's a question
I have for you. Right,you're a therapist. Do you go to
therapy? I have for sure,Yeah, And it's unclear to me if
it's therapy or like case consultation thathe's doing, Charlie. I'm thinking,

(08:43):
you know, like I'm thinking oflike this show in Treatment where Gabriel Byrne
went to see Diane Weast, Ithink it was, and that also looked
like a combination of therapy and caseconsultation. But you know, when you
go to grad school, often gradschools will suggest that you go that psychology

(09:05):
grad school, that those people goto therapy so that you have an understanding
of what it's like to be onthat side on the other side, but
also to work out your own stuffso that it doesn't interfere in the work
that you do. So I've certainlygone to therapy throughout my time because I'm
a believer, you know, I'ma believer in Yeah, sure, of

(09:28):
course it's helpful. I mean thething that I found most funny about it
is you've got these two therapists ina room. Now, granted we're in
a room in Alan's mind, asit's very clearly shown in the way that
scene is set up, but thesort of starting place of that scene is

(09:48):
two therapists being like patience, AmI right? You know what I mean?
Like this two guys sort of sittingaround talking about how difficult patients are
sometimes, and that When I waswatching that, I was like, is
that what a therapist talks about intherapy? Is they talk about how difficult
the patients they're dealing with, becauseit's a completely legitimate thing. But it

(10:11):
was suddenly like, oh, yeah, of course they would. Yeah.
I mean I think it depends,right, you know, like sometimes you're
just talking about your own stuff.But yeah, sometimes, um, hang
on, I'm gonna sneeze. Assoon as you say you're gonna sneeze,
you don't sneeze. Um, ButI yeah, sometimes you know, patients

(10:35):
like um stir stuff up for fortherapists, and so they might be in
therapy talking about you know what getsstirred up for them, you know,
in the room. And what Ireally liked about those I loved those scenes.
Yeah, I love the way theylooked and they the way they sounded,

(10:58):
and um, I loved the conversation. I liked the rapport between the
two of them, and I likedthat Alan was making it up right,
But he he kind of garnered thisthese memories about his therapist and used what
he what he remembered, like thisempathy, go for the empathy, you

(11:20):
know, and maybe maybe Charlie saidthat to him in some context at some
point during their time together. ButI loved, I loved that that's what,
you know, what he tried using. So yeah, I mean,
what I think is so interesting aboutit, and it's not being implicitly said
at this point, but that asAlan's attempted therapy of Sam is clearly failing

(11:48):
right, like it's not. Ithad its moments where it looked like it
was going well, they were makingprogress. Well now we got a dead
guy. So clearly that didn't workout so great. And we see Alan

(12:09):
leaning on the memory of his oldtherapist and being and really asking for like
strength, you know, and ideasand that that and Charlie basically says,
like, listen, you gotta hangon, you got you can't give up
is really sort of the message he'sreally imparting there, and so it just

(12:31):
was an interesting illumination of Alan's characterthat at his core, he truly believes
in this therapy, even if heis completely lost in the moment of how
to use it properly or what hecould do. I mean, as a
therapist, you just don't want togive up. You know, you want
to really search search your toolbox.Well, you know, it's really hard

(12:56):
to give up and to admit defeat. So do you have you ever had
that in your career where you actuallyreached a point where you're like, you
know what, actually you are nuts, you know what I mean, Like
I can't help you. I meanI've I've had to do that when when
I feel like it's not only likeI can't help you, but it's unhealthy

(13:20):
for both of us to continue.You know it hasn't happened often, but
um sure, yeah, but it'sprobably after you've tried everything you can possibly
try to make it work, right, Yeah, yeah, all right,
Well this may very well be whathappens in the next few episodes of the
Page. Um, I know,but I know, yeah, But I

(13:46):
also think that all the different musicthat was played in the episode, both
the positive music at the end andthe really airy music during you know,
all of his visions that he hadwhile he was aging, I think was
really was really interesting. And soI'm really glad that we have a guest

(14:07):
on today who can help us understandhow the music and the show adds to
the whole experience. Lindsay, canyou tell us about who we have on
the show today. Emmy Award winningfilm and television composer and a musician,
Nathan Barr, is on the showtoday. He has received critical acclaim for

(14:28):
his unmatched versatility, incorporating eclectic instrumentsfrom musical cultures from across the world.
His television projects include the scores forTrue Blood, The Americans, Carnival Row,
The Great Hollywood, and now ThePatient. Film scores include Cavin Fever,
The Boy next Door, and Flatliners. We are super excited to have
him on the show today. Pleasewelcome Nathan Barr, composer for The Patient.

(14:52):
Nathan, thanks so much for beingwith us. Yeah, thank you,
Lindsay and Stacy. Great great tobe here to talk about a show
that I I've really enjoyed working on. We have really enjoyed watching it so
and listening to it. So Iwant to say, I'm I'm really excited
to have you here today, NathanUm. I was a huge fan of

(15:16):
the Americans. I'll just say,and but I don't really know anything about
composing music, so I've been tryingto pay attention to the music. And
I guess my first well, Ihave a few questions, but I guess
my first question is tell me abouthow you approach a project like this.

(15:39):
You know, you're asked to dothe score, which maybe you can clarify
that I think it means the musicin the beginning and throughout throughout the show.
Maybe maybe you can explain, likehow how you approach something like that
and what exactly you have to do. Yeah, sure, so Yeah.
As a film and television compos areas a composer were brought in to sort

(16:03):
of deal with the non source music. Source being songs that you might hear
throughout the course of a film.Sometimes it's something it's a radio in the
background in a scene. Sometimes it'sused during a montage. So that those
songs typically as composers, we havenothing to do with They're sourced by a
music supervisor. So we're really thereto help build the musical vocabulary world an

(16:25):
emotional journey that the audience is goingto have experiencing a show or a film,
and so that could involve a maintitle, which this show doesn't really
have. It just has that sortof title card The Patient. But in
the Americans, obviously there was avery prominent main title, and and then
yes, throughout the show all ofthe they're called cues score ques. They

(16:47):
are a little bits and pieces ofmusic that go on throughout a show that
come in typically to well they concernmany purposes, but but typically at the
core of a score is really aboutenhancing emotional journey for an audience. And
so as I think John Williams oncefamously said like, if if you've noticed
my music when you see a filmthat I've scored, I haven't done my

(17:08):
job. It's a pretty silly commentcoming from a guy like that who's his
music is just so so incredible andsuch an enormous part of the viewing experience.
But I think in shows like ThePatient, it would not be uncommon
for people to say Oh, Ididn't really notice that there was music in
the show. And that's that's kindof what a show like this wants.

(17:29):
The show is it's a really powerfulshow, it's a disturbing show, it's
an exciting show. It's all thosethings, and the music is just there
to sort of gently support that subliminallyalmost And so as a composer, I
put a huge amount of time andeffort into creating these little moments which then
go unnoticed by audiences hopefully they arejust riding the wave of the story.

(17:52):
So unlike Stacy, I actually ama composer for film and telling as well
as for theater. Yeah, andI'm not on your level. So but
I'm super excited to talk to you, and i will say that I have
I've I've been to a lot ofstudios of sort of high end Hollywood composers,

(18:15):
and usually when I walk into thosestudios, what I usually see is
there's usually racks and racks of synthesizers, you know from the seventies and eighties,
right that are super high end thatcost a ton of money, as
well as every sort of virtual instrument, which, for those of you who
don't know what that is, thatis essentially sampled recordings of instruments that exist

(18:38):
in the world. There are manythousands of those things that people buy and
use so that they have access tothat. And I will just say that,
after having researched you, you aredefinitely not that guy. You are
the opposite of that in many waysyou have you have taken you have built
a studio around a massive nineteen twentyeight Worlitz or organ, and it seems

(19:07):
like you don't use any synthesizers inyour work. You seem to use mostly
sort of real instruments. And Iwas wondering if you could, first if
you could talk to us a littlebit about your studio, which is totally
fascinating and I totally watched every videoon it last night. But in addition
to that, if you could talkabout your general approach to writing music and

(19:32):
recording music. It does seem likeit's different than a lot of what people
are doing these days in film andTV. Yeah, I grew up in
a household where we had some instrumentslying around that were not necessarily instruments you'd
find in any household, or somehouseholds, like in some households you'd expect
to find a piano or an electricorgan, maybe if you're talking about seventies
eighties, and I grew up ina household there's like a mandolin that my

(19:57):
great grandfather had had, shakahachi Japaneseflute that my family had brought back from
Japan, and a koto from Japan, and so yeah, I just grew
up around some left of center asfar as Western culture instruments, and that
got me excited about the idea ofall of the crazy and wonderful instruments that

(20:18):
are out there in the world,and so very short cliffs notes that led
me to discover that the pipe organthat was installed at Fox Studios here in
La in nineteen twenty eight on theirscoring stage had been pulled out in nineteen
seven and was available for purchase ifsomeone was crazy enough to do so.

(20:41):
And I didn't know sort of whatthat entailed at that point. I just
knew I loved the sound of aWilts theater organ, and I heard them
as a kid a couple of times, and so I found out who owned
it, and I drove up toFloat to Reno, Nevada, and the
guy opened up door after door afterdoor of this warehouse, and it was
just this massive pile of parts andmachine parts and gear and pipes, and

(21:04):
I just had this moment where Ithought that it was completely insane undertaking and
that I had to do it likeit was this It was this incredible piece
of Hollywood music, film music history. Was the organ you here on the
Sound of Music when She gets married, the Day the Year Stood Still,
Journey to the Side of the Yearof Too Great Bernard Hermann's scores. It

(21:25):
was featured prominently in those. Soyeah, I just became obsessed with the
purchase and restoration and then giving thisthing a home to bring it back into
film music. And so it wasinstalled in my studio twenty eighteen after five
years of restoration, and it's becomethe sort of central, you know,

(21:49):
piece of this studio. And yeah, the studio is literally built around the
six rooms that this pipe organ occupies. And so I used it everywhere.
M Danny Elfman is used it.That Dan their brothers have used it.
It's it's it's it's gone right backinto film music in a beautiful way.
So um, and it's funny.I would agree with you in the traditional
sense of the idea of a synthesizer. I don't use sense that much.

(22:12):
I know a lot of composers wholove um that sort of classic analog sense,
and I think that's great. Butthis, this is the kind of
sense I love. And this isa pipe organ and it's it is a
it is essentially a synth orchestra.Like it's the best they could do back
in the early nineteen hundreds to giveone player, you know, an orchestra

(22:33):
to to approximate. So it's prettyincredible this organ. And it has percussion
sections and um, yep, allsorts of things that emulate other instruments.
Um. So you really, fromwhat I understood, it was essentially you
could reproduce, to the best ofyour ability, the sound of an entire

(22:56):
orchestra through this one instrument, whichis the organs. Yeah, and it
does some sections of the of theorchestra better than others, Like it's it's
clarinet and it's flute are pretty convincing. You could definitely record it in such
a way where where your average personon the street would go that that sounds
like a clarinet, that sounds likea flute, and then some of it

(23:18):
sounds like it's choir sound and itsstring sounds are nothing close to a choir
in strings, but UM live ina sonic place that approximates where that would
sit in an orchestra, you knowkind of thing. And I'll just mention
a little plug if if people followme on social media, we have two
silent film concerts coming up here atthe studio that are open to the public

(23:41):
October twenty two, and we're showingthree shorts, one by Harold Lloyd,
one by Buster Keaton, and oneby Charlie Chaplin. So those tickets just
would on sale UM, And that'sa if you're in La area and you
want to come and sort of experienceit in person with a brilliant organist,
that would encourage you to do that. Wow, that's awesome, that's so

(24:03):
great. That's cool. I lovethe idea of being able to just have
a silent film concert at my house. That's not like yeah, no,
it's pretty cool. And I willsay this, this instrument definitely wove its
way into the patient too. It'svery subtle. You you'd never hear it
as a pipe organ, but it'sdefinitely in there. There's some some of
the low bass end um sounds thatare in here are the bass pedals of

(24:26):
this pipe organ. I totally suspectedthat because there I think it's episode two.
There is a moment when Sam makesan entrance and there is like this
huge bass tone that comes from itcomes from nowhere and you sort of feel
it like it starts at one noteand then sort of drops down a little

(24:47):
bit and it really feels like you'rethe pit of your heart is going into
your kind of thing. Yea,and I when I heard it, I
was like, wow, what synthis that? You know? Like I
I want to get that. Andnow I realize it's a it's a massive
six room Morgan that made that.Yes, that's it. So I'm curious,
Nathan, how how do you thinkabout writing music during a scene when

(25:15):
someone is being murdered? Like youknow, like what I know, like
how I felt watching that scene.This was actually in the previous episode,
but um, and I paid attention, you know, knowing we were going
to be doing this interview. Ipaid attention to the music. Um,

(25:37):
but I am just curious, likehow how you go about doing that?
How you think about that, howyou achieve that? Yeah, it's um.
So Joel and Joe and Chris Longwho um I worked with all of
them on The Americans, um,and then working with them again on this
Like um, every filmmaker or showrunnerhas a different relationship with music and how

(26:03):
they see it, the role theysee it they need to play in a
show. And so in this one, it was really hard for us all
met Joe, Joel, Chris andeveryone else to find the tone that the
music had to occupy and sell.And so the performances are really good in
this So it wasn't a hey,save this scene for us with the music

(26:29):
if you can, because we don'tlike the performance, which is oftentimes an
order you get from someone when youcome in the show. They're like,
oh, the scene is not workingat all. We really need your help
with us. So this is reallyabout how And it's the same same thing
that happened in The Americans too,where it's like, how little can I
do to maximize the impact of ascene for an audience, And so my

(26:56):
first pass of the score in manycases, they're like, pull it back.
It's too big, it's too intense. We've got it on the screen.
So and that that was a strugglethroughout the entire show making of the
show. As far as the scorewas concerned, it was always like I
either went too far or didn't gofar enough, and so it was really
tricky, really really tricky. Itwas like I feel like it was a

(27:18):
twenty years after graduate school. Knowledgeand experience was required to figure it out.
And so I'm happy this was happeningas late in my career as it
is. Um so um yeah,so that I think, like we all
watched the scene. It's horrifying,it's horrible, and then it's just about

(27:44):
um kind of like I imagine theactor was imagining what it would be like
to actually murder someone, and Idon't need to go to that quite that
extreme place that they do because they'rethey're visually on camera doing it. But
it's really about, you know,emotion only like like that pit of the
stomach you were talking about, That'sreally what it's about. Is helping the
music get it to that place visuallyit's pretty terrifying, and what musically can

(28:11):
be done to make it terrifying.So a director I work with pretty often
named Eli Roth, who does alot of really intense horror films, once
said like, I want people whoare in the theater and close their eyes
to still get the impact of what'sgoing on because the music is giving them
that. And so that was kindof the case here was just like a

(28:32):
lot of the sound I was usinglike a de tuned upright bass and some
really unusual percussion, really unusual pipeorgan sounds. And so I think creating
the dread with these unusual sounds,it was part of what can pull an
audience into that moment somehow. That'sa great word, The dread, I

(28:55):
think is really relevant. You know, it's interesting. I was thinking about
the instrumentation of it. I waswatching a video that you had made earlier,
and you had said at one pointthat you do not consider yourself to
be a keyboard player, but thepiano really is a big vocal point of
the score in the show. Theend title music in particular seems to really

(29:21):
use it. But then it's alsothroughout and I just I wanted it to
because You've already talked a little bitabout this, But I'm curious, when
you approach a scene, how doyou decide, oh, this is the
right instrument for this, or thisis the right way to find the texture,
Because as you said, you're usingthings like you know, a massive

(29:45):
Worletz organ in a way that itprobably was never intended to be used.
So you kind of are inventing soundsout of other sounds to a degree.
And I'm just curious what your processis for how you choose or chestration and
what you where you head towards forthere. Yeah, it's a great question,
and I think it's just like comeswith like experience and having done it

(30:08):
a long long time. I rememberRandy Newman, I think it was him
once saying, like trying to describewhat an odd little talent film scoring is.
It's like it's like being at aparty and like standing on your pinkie.
You know, people look at yougo, wow, yeah, that's
that's out there. You know.It's just like it's the same with scoring.

(30:29):
Like I think, like I rememberin my very early days when I
was just starting this, watching anothercomposer figure out a scene and having no
idea what he was doing. Andthen like you know, now I can
I think, as you can probablyrelate to lindsay, like you know now
as a musician, if you've doneit enough, you can watch I can
watch a movie and pretty quickly gothis movie would not work with an orchestra,

(30:53):
like it's just the wrong libe ofit, or this movie would work
with orchestra, or sometimes I hearin my head and I'll start thinking I
was a piano just clicking through inmy head. What instrument could work,
you know? And what does theproject want? Does it want to does
want something that's very familiar, doesit want something that's very unfamiliar? Like
what is the attempt that the filmmakershave with the experience they're giving the audience?

(31:17):
And so with this one, um, this was a this was a
complicated one. There was a lotof it. So there's something called temp
music, which is which is umuh, something most of us as composers
dread. It's basically it's basically musicthat picture editors and creators put in that
is approximately what they're looking for,and occasionally they feel like they've found the

(31:40):
perfect piece and if it's mine,as as there were cases in this show,
then I'm just ripping myself off.But if it's someone else's, it
can be quite complicated. So therewas a lot of referring back to temp
cues. Thankfully many of them weremy own. Um and that helped determine
sort of ahead of time what theywere okay with what they were not okay

(32:02):
with. But I think it's justa matter of like that. Yeah,
there's a lot of piano, andsome of that has played, some of
that is programmed. I had,We had a crazy schedule. I had
a wonderful friend who I've known twentyfive years named Justin Burnett, who helped
a lot on this show as wellwith some co composing and arranging and and
so it's really the two of us, and it just really became about getting

(32:29):
it done. We did so manyversions of so many cues, and again
it speaks to the level of detailthe Jays and Chris we're bringing to like
what they wanted the music to helpwith. And sometimes they were experiencing a
scene in a way that I wasn't, and so I would bring something to
that scene and they go, no, no, this moment, this moment,

(32:51):
this moment, like oh wow,okay, yeah, that's you want
to sell that. You want tosell those elements or that experience in the
scene that we don't have to goback and you write the queue. So
yeah, but it just becomes likesecond nature just watching and going this instrument
like you like. In the beginning, I thought a clarinet because that plugged
into sort of the klezmer music umyeah, and the orchestration you might hear

(33:13):
in the Klesmer band. We thoughtabout that initially, and then when I
tried it, it just felt toolike it was drawing too much attention to
itself, so that quickly went awayas an instrument. Yea, yeah,
So there was a there is someKlesmer music in it, but it's backwards,
it's reversed, and one of Ibelieve it was one of the picture
editors who early on when they werecutting, came up with that concept and

(33:37):
it was really great because it's ait's a familiar sound, but it's played
backwards, it's echoed out and itum um. If you play it at
normal speed, straight ahead, it'sgoing to have a very different emotional impact
than something played backwards, slower,with a lot of reverb. So it's

(33:58):
somehow familiar, somehow plugging into thevery Jewish cultural elements of the story,
but in a way that is veryunsettling given what our story is. Uh,
it's centered on those those moments.There's there's one or two title cards
where you hear that, and thenin the first up I think it's in
the first episode. The cut haschanged so much anytime. There are a

(34:21):
couple of times where Alan is havinga nightmare about being in a gas chamber,
and you'll hear it in there too. You'll hear sort of this this
very otherworldly sound and that is reversedKlaismer music. Wow, that's so cool.
I mean, I because some ofthat is in episode six that we're

(34:42):
currently currently watching. Oh cool.Yeah, yeah, it's it's oftentimes there
in those scenes. Yeah. Iwould say throughout the season it was maybe
four or five times that that wewe leaned into that, and uh yeah,
it was very effective. When youwere talking about the schedule was really
in tense, can you kind oftell us what that means? Like,

(35:02):
what is that? What was theschedule like? So the schedule was there
was a there was a huge amountof experimentation upfront in terms of again getting
the tone of the show right,and so probably wrote, like in one
or two cases, probably wrote threeor four episodes worth of music. In

(35:23):
terms of time, so let's sayforty five minutes an hour of music that
didn't actually end up in the showbefore we finally started writing stuff that got
into the show, So there wasa very rigorous, intensely challenging experimentation base
at the top of the show,and so the schedule would have been more

(35:43):
manageable, and it was ultimately manageable, was ultimately fine, but the level
of scrutiny and detail that was beingplaced on the music made every deadline feel
that much more intense to hit becausethere was rarely as there were one or
two episodes where most of the musicgot in without too much in the way

(36:05):
of notes, but in most casesthere were there were at least a couple
of major rewrites every episode to toto get it right. And I look
at that like not so much thatlike I wasn't nailing it, but it
was more about like they really lookedvery like unders not under a magnified glass,

(36:27):
under a microscope, and what themusic was doing and what it needed
to do, and with that levelof intensity and scrutiny, you just have
to go through the process to getit there. We've been hearing this from
some of the actors on the showthat they were sort of finding their way
through the final episodes of the script, like they were. They were still
rewriting and rewriting all the way upuntil the last minute, and it sounds

(36:51):
like that was affecting you as well, I imagine, yeah, and I
think I think I don't know ifyou heard the specific numbers, but honestly,
around five or six this episode,that was where I kind of stepped
back and go, Okay, Ithink I understand what the show is now
as far as the music, andso that's very rare to get halfway through

(37:12):
a season before you understand that.And I think that was happening with story,
it was having with performance, itwas happening with everything. I think
it was just a really Joe andJoel created and chose to tell an incredibly
complex story that at face value,I think audience has pegged it as a
certain kind of show, right Jackthe Rippers, serial killer, you know,

(37:37):
and it's really it's yes, it'sthat, but it's really just this
incredible exploration of the psychology of thesetwo men. So it's a very to
me intelligent and ultimately emotionally rewarding lookat these two people. But but in
the in the style of or,you know, using a serial killer as

(38:00):
the vocal point for that it's reallyfascinating. It seems that you're you in
your career been drawn to some prettydark things. This isn't the first kind
of you know, dark show thatyou've you know, done the score for.
So what what draws you to that? I'm not sure I'm drawn to
it or they're drawn to me?Okay, like on early early on,

(38:23):
Um, I mean, I dolove horror films. I love horror films.
I love that genre. Um soUm but I think like if you
look at there are a lot ofhorror films made, and so as a
younger composer starting out, I thinkmany composers will say they do a lot
of horror films early in their career, and so I think that's part of

(38:45):
it. Um. And then onceyou work with one director like Elia Ross,
who makes horror basically exclusively horror films, they take you on the ride,
You're gonna be doing a lot ofhorror films like Hostile and Cavil Fever
in these movies. Um, butI do have to say, I do,
I do love a good horror film, like to Me one of the

(39:06):
better horror films of the past tenyears. There are a couple, but
Hereditary. I don't know if eitherof you saw Hereditary, but I just
thought it was like a really itlike rocked my world. When I saw
it, I was like, wow, I have not been that scared in
a horror film and so long.And so I see many many horror films
that come out, and most ofthem are so disappointing. But even when

(39:28):
they're disappointing, they can be appreciated. So I think it's just, um,
you know, why is that sucha popular genre? Why is true
crime so huge right in the podcastworld? And I think it's that sort
of in a human fascination with thedarkness of people and what people are capable

(39:49):
of doing, and and sort ofexperiencing a version of it from a safe
distance where you can turn it off, and and and so for a horror
film like Hereditary, I remember twentysome years ago when The Grudge came out,
like I was, you know,every night I was going to better
I was looking for that kid crouchedin the corner, you know, making
cats sounds. So it's just justlike it's it's a thankfully I I have

(40:15):
I have lived a life with withoutthat kind of intensity in it, and
these these films and projects allow meto sort of dip into that, explore,
explore that because it is a partof um as we know, you
know, the experience of a lotof people in this world unfortunately, and
I just want to piggyback off ofthat that that I'll let you go,

(40:35):
Lindsay. But one of our oneof our Reddit fans, his name is
Lee Lifson, asked a particular questionif you were inspired by any particular scores
from horror films when composing the musicfor this series. Yeah, that's a
good question. Um. I meanthey used, um, they tempted an
awful lot with with one of myown film scores to a film No One

(41:00):
not that many people saw. Itwas called The Domestics. It was from
maybe five years five or six yearsago, and it's a really deeply disturbing
film and spore than the director,who's from Minneapolis, really pushed me to
my wits end at times to comeup with some really different stuff, and

(41:23):
I think as frustrating as that processwas, the result was we got a
really insane, incredible, unusual scoreout of it that I wish more people
had heard. But the fact thatthat was tempted into this film, I
could pretty much dip into that sametool chest because no one saw that film

(41:45):
and use it here. So I'dsay, yeah, I was inspired by
that, my own work on thatpreviously, which I hadn't gone back to.
In terms of other or films,I didn't have anything specifically in mind
film wise. I'd be curious tohear if people have heard something in there,

(42:06):
um that they that they feel likethey recognize from something else or not.
But yeah, it was. Itwas really just sort of I'm someone
who enjoys, like when I can. This was not necessarily that project.
When I hear the temp queue,I completely ignore it and just do something
totally different, and I enjoy Ienjoy doing that because, um, if

(42:28):
you're just ripping off temp, it'sit's maybe not the most exciting thing in
the world, which was not thecase here. It was it was there
was a lot of exciting stuff happeninghere. But but m yeah, just
that opening moment reminds me of Lost. The opening moments of Lost. Oh
interesting, just the very very whenthey when the title comes up the I

(42:52):
think he called it the title interesting. Yeah, kind of this, like
I wonder what's going to happen nowmeus sick, but right, right right,
I don't remember. I don't knowanything. None of that's right.
No, that it's always interesting tohear what thessosiations are there. Yeah,
there's that. There's that like mom, yeah, that thing that that is,

(43:14):
uh was something that the network andthe Jays and Chris really liked.
They felt like that was plugging intosomething in the beginning that was there.
They went through a lot of versionsof things before we got to that.
That was the thing that sort ofstuck. What is that sound? You
know? Yeah, yeah, Ido. It's a trombone. Um,
it's a trombone. Yeah, it'sa trombone that we recorded and completely morphed.

(43:37):
And UM, I have I havetwo um, really wonderful sad designers
who who have been working with forabout six months now, Alex Brinkley and
Jack Druffle, and they've, um, I've sort of unleased them on this
studio with all these crazy instruments andand and with a little guidance they've they've
run with it and we've started comingup with some really special, totally unique

(44:00):
sounds that start with these bizarre instrumentsand then get more so you have like
sort of sound design elves who dothings while you're not looking at it,
or like are like all records somethingand say this sounds cool, but I
think we could make it even moreinteresting or bizarre and then they'll run with
it. Yeah, yeah, Stacy, Just to give you a context of

(44:22):
what TEMP score is, like,I mean, I think of it like
a patient walked into your office andthe last six doctors that that patients before
someone had collated the best of thosediagnosises and handed you a piece of paper

(44:43):
and said, Okay, we wantyou to diagnose this patient using these diagnoses
as a baseline of what to referto, but also make it significantly better
and also make sure that you don'tsound anything like exactly like any of these
things that people could spot it andor sue you for it. That is

(45:04):
an excellent analogy. Yeah. Yeah, it's intense. It is intense.
Yeah, And and and I thinkthere are probably some therapists who would lean
into that and be like, yeah, sure, then there are therapists.
No way, I'm not doing that, you know. So I wanted to
ask you a little bit more aboutyour collaboration with the Jay's and Chris Long

(45:28):
and I have a specific piece ofmusic and mind from episode six that I
wanted to ask you about, andmaybe this this can sort of this queue
can sort of help figure out howit works. Most of The Patient's score
is by definition very dark, andthere are lots of textures and tones and

(45:51):
clearly manipulations of sounds. But inepisode six of The Patient, when they
begin digging the hole in the basement, there is a cue that is based
in piano and it almost feels likesomething Back would have written. It's very
sort of positive and bright, andit has a lot of movement to it,

(46:14):
and it's it's unlike any other quein the show that I was able
to clock, and I was justcurious, how could you tell us about
how that que developed and how muchinteraction you had with the creators of the
show and putting that together. Yeah, that's a great you're really listening carefully,

(46:35):
and yes, you noticed one ofthe sort of anomalous cues you know
in the show. And I tonallyagain going back to tone. In very
early cuts of the show, theywere talking about almost like circus like music,
like could we have circus like music, Like we're just we want to

(46:55):
pull an audience into this other worldthey've never experienced, and Alan is just
like getting up every morning like wheream I? Like what is this?
I mean this like bizarre fun houseand my life's at stake. And so
I think like that style of Qheld over from those early discussions, and

(47:19):
I think, um, for me, it made more sense in the earlier
cuts and the earlier way they weretelling the story, or it was more
more obviously tethered to that approach,and in this they really fell in love
with that that musical idea sort ofas you said, like this bach like

(47:42):
thing. Yeah, And so whenit came time to score that scene,
we just sort of leaned into thisidea that, um, this is where
you know, as you know,uh, Sam asks Alan to come right,
you know, come help out.This is this is basically your faults
to come and finish diggingmahole or whatever. And so it the intent again was

(48:07):
to sort of pull pull the audienceinto just the crazy circus of what Alan
was experiencing in that basement. Byand by taking the music and the score
away from what we were hearing inthe rest of the show. The hope
was that that would lift the audienceinto this place to to sort of psychologically

(48:29):
link with Alan and go, God, this is just so weird and bizarre
and how did he get here?You know? That was? That was
I think the idea. I neverwould have I never would have gone there
myself without without the guidance they gave, you know. They they did an
enormous amount of exploring with these cuts, the edit, the picture, how

(48:51):
to tell the story and in theprocess, with a lot of music and
so um. It got got usto a place I was excited about.
And as a composer like, wewant to be led by the showrunner or
the director to our best self andeven surprise ourselves. And I think they
did that with this show in incertain cases. Yeah yeah. Listening to

(49:13):
that queue, what I found fascinatingis it almost felt like, you know,
oh, it's it's a happy,workaday sort of thing of like let's
say, let's all go dig ahole for the body, you know,
yeah, exactly, And it's opento interpretation, I think, And that's
that's kind of what bumped me aboutit. As I was writing and they
were guiding me, I had thatsame feeling, but I think they were

(49:37):
more plugging into what I just mentionedbefore, which is just sort of the
the otherworldliness and the out of bodyexperience of Alan digging. So as far
as tone goes, how much influencedoes the Kenny Chesney music have on the
score? Any? No, itdoesn't. I think I had thought in

(50:00):
the beginning, Oh, could wework some like because Sam was a country
music fan? Could we work insome country elements? So that was the
Sam side of things. Could wework in any Klesmer elements from the Allen
side of things? And And ultimatelynothing worked itself in from the Sam side.
But as I mentioned, some someKlezmer elements ended up on the on

(50:22):
the Allen side, and and umthose are all part of the early discussion
and were of this show. Butbut ultimately that wanted to be its own,
its own thing. Um. Yeah, that Kenny Chesney is definitely a
huge plot point of the show.That both his music and the fan base,

(50:43):
which I as a professional musician,I'm like, did Kenny Chesney know
what he was getting into when heagreed to this? Yeah? But I
understand that. I think I readsomewhere on the Internet that Joe Weissberg was
at one point a country performer.Do you know that did did ever come

(51:05):
up? I know about his CIApast, but I don't know about now.
I got to ask him about that. That's crazy, he continues to
Apparently he had a brief career incountry music of some kind or one of
them. Did I hope I haveto write? Yeah, I hope.
I'm not totally making this up.And he's gonna You're gonna tell him that,
and he's gonna be like, Idon't know what you're talking about.

(51:28):
I want to hear more about theCIA past myself. Yeah. Well,
I think you learned a lot aboutit in the Americans. I think that
was all like I remember when theywere writing those scripts. He had to
as a former employee he had.I think they had to vet a lot
of that with the CIA get toget get things signed off. So I

(51:50):
heard. I have one other question. Um, I understand Nathan, that
you have besides the instruments that you'vementioned already, I think you have some
other rather unusual instruments. Can youtell us a little bit about that some
of the more unusual instruments and kindof sounds they make. One of the
ones that's more appropart to this darkstoryline, is I have a human bone

(52:15):
trumpet from Tibet. There there isapparently when some of the monks pass away,
they have their bones turned into relics. And the word is actually it's
called a kung lang or kang lang, and it's where they take the femur
and they hollow it out and theyembellish it with jewels and silver or platinum

(52:38):
or whatever, and then that becomessort of a ceremonial trumpet. And so
I do have one of those,which is you can't really get a sound
out of it that's musical. It'smore of a sound effect than anything.
I've had some really amazing brass playerscome in and try and get it to
do things that it just doesn't wantto do. But it's it is an

(53:00):
amazing and odd sort of curiosity.But I have so many, yeah,
unusual instruments here that I've collected overthe past sort of decade decade and a
half, a lot of mechanical musicalinstruments. So mechanical musical instruments are this
bizarre but really cool subset of instruments. I'd say from the late eighteen hundreds

(53:25):
to the early nineteen hundreds, beforerecorded music, when musician when people wanted
to figure out how do we getlive music into a space without having to
hire an orchestra or a piano player. And so it's like they're called nickelodeons.
You put a coin in, youknow, and instead of just a
piano, there are drums and axylophone, and in some cases there are

(53:47):
organ pipes. And it's this sortof catch all box, usually with stained
glass, full of music musical instrumentsthat are played by mechanical means. And
so I have quite a few ofthose, um that I enjoy enormously,
um and yeah, just sort ofa lot based in that world, but

(54:08):
a lot of different kinds of pipeorgans, small pipe organs, the kind
you'd see like a monkey grinder,you know, out on the side street.
Um um yeah, and a lotthat are really difficult to explain.
I think I read that you havea glass armonica. Is that is that
true? I do, Yeah,I don't have an original there. If

(54:29):
they're I think I think you canprobably count on one hand the number of
originals from Ben Franklin's time he inventedthat instrument. There are left because they're
so fragile. But I've seen oneof that in a museum in Germany and
they're just beautiful. Um. ButI have an instrument that was made by
an industrial glass blower and on theside, um, to honor his mo

(54:50):
rtistic side. He was making glassarmonicas before he passed away years ago.
Um, So yeah, I haveI have one of his instruments and I
use that quite a bit. AndI used an Americans quite a bit.
You can it was steel drum malletsinstead of your fingers. Um, and
that also had a really great andunique sound to it. Do you use
it in the patient? At onepoint I was like, I couldn't tell
if that was you bowing an instrumentor if that's definitely tons of as you

(55:14):
heard tons of Bode stuff in thepatient, but not the boss of Monica.
No. Yeah, um, butI have a bode. I have
a boat guitar that I use abit, and then I have m yeah,
a bunch of other um odd oddthings that we bowl around here.
So yeah, if it's in theroom, you'll bow it. The human

(55:37):
bone trumpet was that featured in thepatient? That was not? No,
I wish I wish I could haveput that in there. No, it's
a very specific sound. And you'dhave to pick your moment carefully. I
did another show called Carnival Row,season two of which is coming out on
Amazon in chill of January, Ithink, and that that definitely got a

(55:57):
fair share of the kang lang thehuman bone trump. But yeah, it's
usually buried, you know, withsome other instruments, but it is there
vocally, just really quick, reallyquick. The other thing I'll mentioned vocals
there there are some female vocals hereand there in the score, particularly in
the first episode. Um, andthat was another component that um seemed to
plug in really nicely to the otherworldliness of the experience Alan was having and

(56:23):
yet also to the fact that hehad just lost his wife. So um,
it didn't it didn't prominent featurely throughoutthe entire season, but in the
beginning, certainly in that first episode, years some very odd vocal things going
on, and that's that's sort ofhelped again to pull people into the the
experience ahead. I think, wasthat Laura Nimi doing that or no,

(56:46):
this note it was a really wonderfulvocalist composer named Lizbeth Scott. Um.
Yeah, Nathan, this has beenso great to talk to you. We
are so grateful for you spending sometime with us and helping us to better
understand the music of the show.It's just yeah, I want to congratulate
you. The score is just beautifuland I think it's incredibly effective. I

(57:07):
totally understand what you're saying about nottrying to be too noticeable, but I
really think it provides a tremendous amountof texture and tension to an already really
tense movement. So congratulations. It'sreally nice to have people the show is
really found an audience, and Ithink this podcast is a testament to that.

(57:30):
And it's that was really exciting becausebecause when we were first trying to
figure it out, it was like, you know, how, how are
we really going to pull the audiencein for this for this a really special
journey? And I think it gotthere, which is great. I learned
so much about, you know,things that I wouldn't have even been able
to anticipate that I didn't know aboutmusic and how you score it, you

(57:52):
know, the show and every sceneand every moment. That was really fascinating.
And I'm going to really pay closeattention now as we continue through the
journey and see I'm not going tobe able to say, oh, was
that a synthesizer there? But butI will pay attention to you know how
how whatever the music is, howthat makes me feel so so thank you

(58:14):
so much. And I have tosay, like, as a show,
this the finale of this show isjust so strong. It's it's uh,
as we know, there are somany shows that go to the finale to
die and it's it's not a greatexperience, and I just I think they
just nailed this finale. It's areally powerful experience. So yeah, yeah,
yeah, ah man, I'm dyingto see it. I can't wait

(58:37):
away. He is really cool.He was so nice and I've learned so
much about music that I had noidea that I didn't even know, right,
just all of all of the musicthat he wrote in all of the

(59:00):
different places that it goes, andlike I'm just thinking, oh, it's
the score, you know, it'swhatever, you know, but there's so
much more to it than that,and the emotion, the trying to you
know, kind of provoke and elicitthese emotions in us with the music.

(59:21):
I mean, I knew that wasa thing, but it's so complicated and
intricate and passionate the way he's doingit. Yeah, it's true. And
I love his sort of unusual instrumentation, you know what I mean. I
love that he's got a Tibetan bonefluide and you know, he's got a

(59:44):
massive, you know, six roomorchestra and I mean a six room organ,
and he's he's really seems like he'strying consistently to find sounds that are
unique and yet feel familiar in someway. And I think that's really interesting,

(01:00:06):
you know, because it's like ifI think his point of if it
was since and you know, it'sif it feels like sounds we've never heard
before, then that almost feels liketoo distant. But he somehow has found
a way to look for musical soundsthat have a very human feel, and

(01:00:27):
yet we can't necessarily identify what itis, like that that trombo and effect
that he talked about for the titlecard of the show, which is like
such a tiny little thing, rightLike, that's like a three second thing
that happens at the very top ofthe show. But as soon as you
hear that sound, you're automatically like, well, every time I hear that
sound before the show starts, I'malways like, oh, you know what

(01:00:49):
I mean, like right away,you know you're you're in for something,
and it's it's that's such a greatexample of how just a little thing like
that can make a big impression andcan really get you in the mood of
this dark show so quickly, likejust right away, you're already there.

(01:01:10):
And I love the idea that he'snot just like you know, obviously he's
not just like creating music straight up, right, but that he did this
thing where he took this klezmer musicwhich has it's you know, origins in
Jewishness, which is one of thethemes of the show, and then played

(01:01:32):
it backwards. So I have tolook for that, you know when I
watch the show, because you know, creating this, you know, it's
kind of like listening to the youknow, Beatles album backwards and it says,
you know, Paul is dead rightlike it it would have this unreally
unsettling effect. You know that youdon't even know why it's unsettling. You

(01:01:55):
don't know why you're identifying with thethis klezmer music. You know, if
you're Jewish, you might be identifyingwith it and yet feel unsettled by it,
and so I would say if heheard me say this now, he'd
be like, yep, I justthat's exactly what I was trying to create.
You know. That's amazing. Yeah, it is really cool, and
I mean it's a great example ofhow music or sonic elements can really affect

(01:02:28):
your overall emotional perception of an event, you know. And it's why score,
It's why score is so often used. It's why people and you know,
he made a point during that oflike sometimes directors say to him like,
oh, I don't like the waythe scene went, but you're going
to fix it with your music.And what they mean by that is,

(01:02:52):
you know the things that the emotionsthat the actors weren't able to communicate,
the music can can indicate that ina totally subconscious way. And so when
you're reversing that klezmer music, it'snot so much now that you hear it
and you say, ah, yes, that is clesmer music backwards. I
know what that is. But it'smore like you feel the sort of like

(01:03:15):
chaotic energy and joy of that musicgoing in reverse that it gives you a
visceral response, you know what Imean. So you're like, you're more
captivated by the energy than necessarily thedefinition of what it is. And I'm

(01:03:36):
fascinated that, you know, hesaid, Well, sometimes I'm brought in,
you know, to enhance something.Sometimes I'm brought into save something.
You know, like that was amazingthat one sentence. This is amazing.
Yeah, I mean it's really great. It gives you a real respect for

(01:03:59):
how how powerful music can be andhow much it can really shape your experiences.
I mean, you know, Iteach a class in composition for theater,
and one of the things I alwayslike to do in the first classes,
you know, I will give aspeech and put different kinds of music
behind it. You know. Onecan be like inspiring strings that feel like

(01:04:20):
they're building up to this climax,and then I'll take the same exact,
same text and I'll do it againstyou know, really dark sounding things that
feel like there's a murderer around thecorner. You know what I mean.
And what I'm saying is not changingat all, and yet the context of
the music around it completely colors theperception of how you perceive it. And

(01:04:44):
it's a very powerful responsibility. Andonce you figure that out as a composer,
then all you're trying to do isrefine it over and over and over
again, so you're getting it asclose as you can to exactly what you
want to communicate to your audience.And so I think that's what he was
talking about when he was saying thatThe Patient was such a period of experimentation

(01:05:10):
and struggle, because even while theywere making the series, they were still
trying to figure out like, Okay, what are we saying here, what
are we trying to put across?And you know, I have a feeling
it was a difficult experience, butit's clearly worth it because it's really paying

(01:05:32):
off now. Yeah, for sure. Well, and so I think that
this was a really great interview interms of, you know, teaching us
about things that we wouldn't necessarily haveknown about, you know, how the
music affects you know, the showand the elements of the show and the

(01:05:58):
psychological land escape of the show.And next time we're talking about how the
sound does that. So that's goingto be another whole you know, for
me at least, lindsay, notfor you, you know, learning experience
about things you don't even realize orNoah's happening in the background when you're watching

(01:06:20):
a film or a TV show,how the sound and the music affect your
experience or the show. So I'mreally excited for that interview too. Me
too, I'm super excited. Thisis going to be great. I'm super
super exciting. All Right, well, we will see you for our next
episode. Our time is up,and we'll see you on the next session

(01:06:43):
of Psychoanalyzing the Patient. Bye bye,