"Ezra" w/ Andrew Leeds

This week we have actor Andrew Leeds who plays Ezra on The Patient! Tune in to hear what it was like acting alongside Steve Carrell.
From Straw Hut Media

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
Straw Media. All right, herewe are for episode eight of The Patient.
If by some reason or otherwise thatyou have not seen episode eight of
The Patient, please stop this podcastnow, go watch episode eight and then
come back and hit play again.We'll still be here and we can keep

(00:25):
moving forward. So in episode eightof The Patient, which is tiled Ezra
as we are going to be themedthematically talking about today on the show,
Sam's anger is stoked once again whenhe's supervisor Kyle bends the rules about reinspection
at work. When Sam brings thisup, Kyle tells him to watch how

(00:48):
he speaks to his boss, andyou can just see in that moment that
things are not going to go wellfor that for Kyle. From that point
on, she's clear that Sam hasfound his new victim, and that is
Kyle. Alan meanwhile, is strugglingwith his own simmering anger towards his son

(01:08):
Ezra. In his mind. Hetalks with Charlie, his therapist, who
helps him work through his feelings towardsEzra. Alan is angry at how Ezra
has accused him of not respecting hischoices, even when Alan feels he's been
perfectly reasonable. Charlie helps Alan seesubtle ways in which he's been unsupportive.
Akaa the kosher steak if you haveif you're watching that episode still, if

(01:34):
Alan could tell Ezra anything, it'sthat he broke up his family and devastated
Beth, his mother. His wayhad to be the only way. Ezra
was always stubborn, much like Beth. We then get a glipse into what
Ezra's doing, and it would bea big surprise to Alan if he knew
it. Despite all the bad bloodbetween Ezra and his father, Ezra is

(01:57):
in fact putting up flyers all overtown with Alan's face on. Alan thinks
Ezra is self righteous, but thenCharlie draws connections to Ezra's behavior and Allan's
own behavior. In reality, Alanhas looked down on Ezra's choices. It
then dawns on Alan that he hasbeen more compassionate to Sam, the serial

(02:19):
killer than he has been to Ezra, his own son. He really wants
to find Ezra so he can apologizeto him and stop making excuses, and
he'll fight for an escape. Itlooks like a dream of escape in Alan's
eyes. When he picks up anempty tube of foot cream and sharpens it

(02:40):
on the side of the bed.Ezra remains worried for his father, and
this affects multiple aspects of his life. He surprises his family by bringing home
candy that is hard to tell,but it looks like it's not kosher.
Later, he goes to Alan's houseand picks up Best guitar, the one
he refuses to accept from his dadat the beginning of the season. He

(03:02):
plays it singing take Me Home,Country Roads. He then confesses to his
wife Hava about how harsh Alan wastowards him after Best's death. Ezra was
simply angry with him, that's all. While Ezra seems to be letting go
of some of his anger, Samacts on his He follows his boss to
a restaurant. When Kyle leaves,Sam runs into him on the street as

(03:25):
if by coincidence, and then says, Hey, I think there's a restaurant
over there. Their dumpsters are overflowing. Why don't you come take a look
with me. By the way,if anyone ever asks you to go look
at an overflowing dumpster, serial killeror not, the answer is no,
right, but in this case,definitely no. So then behind the restaurant

(03:50):
at the dumpster, Sam confronts Kylewith breaking the company policy and perhaps accepting
bribes so that other restaurants can beinspected first. When Kyle calls Sam an
idiot, Sam loses it. Heslams Kyle to the ground strangles him to

(04:12):
death, but after he kills Kyle, he starts to walk away, then
turns back, kneeling over Kyle's body. Sam recites what little of the cottage
he can remember, which does notgo well, but at least it's an
idea. He goes to a therapistif he goes to a convenience store to
grab a hotdog and then calls misterBoutella. It turns out that his school

(04:34):
counselor would be glad to be hiswould be glad to be Sam's therapist.
Sam, though goes home. Hewakes up Alan and invites him to play
pinbog. When Alan is one pointaway from winning, Sam suddenly confesses about
the murder of Kyle. He tellsAlan that he wants to change, but
he doesn't know if it's possible.Alan insists that it is not only for

(04:57):
him, but for his victims too, but takes time. But Sam is
not convinced. He tells Alan thattherapy isn't working and maybe it was a
mistake to bring it here. He'snever hurt anyone he liked before, but
you may have to break that rulefor the first time with Alan. At
the end of the episode, wehear Alan scraping and sharpening to a foot

(05:19):
green against the bed, and that'swhere we leave it. Oh boy,
I'm worried. I'm worried. Weactually hear him do that throughout the episode,
Like throughout his dream sequence with thetherapist, you can hear the scraping
in the background, which is justI think the most beautiful touch. I

(05:43):
love. I love those scenes withCharlie, and I love how real life
has a way of you know,kind of still you like, kind of
coming through either visually or you know, in the audio. But yeah,
ye shout out to James Reading SuperRising sound editor and guests of say of
episode seven that now that we're hyperaware of the sound effects, it really

(06:06):
does make a big difference to havethose effects in there. Absolutely, absolutely
so. I have a couple ofthoughts about about this episode. Yeah,
so you immediately think the minute thatKyle speaks up to Sam in the office.
I think everyone was like, rutRow, that's not going to go

(06:31):
well for Kyle. So bad news, Kyle. Yeah, picked the wrong
guy. Yeah, I certainly gotthe kosher steak reference, you know the
way that And I can see evenif even if Alan doesn't think that he

(06:53):
was insulting Hava, it was alittle dig. He could have just said
this is the best steak I've everhad, ad but by saying this is
the best kosher steak I've ever had, but I was a little dig.
What do you think? I don'tknow. I'm on the fence. On
the one hand, I think Alancould be saying that it's like, ah,

(07:15):
this is good for kosher food.But I also think, on the
other hand that he could have beentrying to say it as a way of
saying, oh, you know,I really I honor the fact that this
is kosher and I appreciate this steak, you know what I mean? So
like, to me, it's righton the line. I feel like i'd
have and Alan clearly is like,I meant it is a compliment, and

(07:39):
then you're like, but did youthough, Like it seems as though it's
unclear as to what the true intentionof that was I don't know well,
and since Charlie's made up in thesesessions, clearly Alan is questioning himself about
how much of a compliment it reallywas. Yeah, right, Yeah,

(08:01):
I mean, I mean that issomething I think that all of us do
in life, as we go throughour days saying and doing things without really
thinking about it, and then spendour nights obsessing about the things we said
during the day, Yeah, andbeing like, oh, I wish i'd
said that better. Yeah. Yeah. There's another part which I've I've asked

(08:24):
you about and I've talked about inthe you know, in the Facebook group
that I'm I can't get a goodanswer on, which is there's a moment
between Charlie and Alan where Charlie says, Alan, take a flyer. And
we know that every single word andline is very well thought out by the

(08:48):
Jay's and because the episodes are soshort, there's nothing extra in it.
But it's just this is the episodewhere you know, as I was putting
up flyers, and so why wouldwhy would Charlie say that, Because clearly
Alan doesn't know that Ezra's putting upflyers, so why use that word?

(09:09):
I need an answer to that sobadly. Yeah, I do not have
that answer. I think it could. It's once again one of fifty things
on this show that it's like,is it well thought out? Is it
a coincidence? I don't know.Yeah, so I think it's just literally
designed to keep you up late atnight furiously. Yeah, turning it over

(09:33):
in your brain over and over again. That's what I'm thinking about. Yes,
they've done a very effective job,especially towards you, specifically these things
all night long. Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly it. Oh man,
Well I oh sorry, go ahead, I have more questions, Lindsay,

(09:56):
go for it. Well, whatdid you think about the pink pond?
I thought it was awesome because whatyou see is that both of them are
trying to dominate one another and thatthey take ping pong far more seriously than

(10:22):
you would imagine these people to takeit, and it's almost like a game
of dominance. And from Sam's pointof view, it's interesting to me because
you're like, Okay, maybe thereis another way to dominate another human being
without murdering them, which, bythe way, I think is an important
plot point for him to know,which is you could just beat them at

(10:43):
ping pong. Maybe you should lookinto cards of some kind, some some
other hobbies rather than killie people justto dominate them. But I thought it
was especially interesting that just before Alanis about to win that game, as
we pulls the rug out, roundermansays, I killed another person. Now
Sam pulls the rug out. Ohsorry, Sam, I'm sorry, I

(11:05):
said, but I met Sam.You're absolutely right, uh, And I
just thought, man, Sam isnever going to lose. Sam is always
going to be the person with theupper hand and this no matter what.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.And I just want to say I don't
really know any ping punk players thattake the game lightly by the way,

(11:30):
but but including my husband and youknow, my sons and my friend Peter.
But I think that it was aninteresting way of like releasing emotion,
you know. Um, you know, instead of coming home and listening to
Kenny Chesney. You know, Samwanted to play Ping pong so um.

(11:54):
But yeah, you're right. Theywere both taking it very seriously. And
my friend Stephi was like, oh, Alan, better let him win,
and I'm thinking, oh no,Alan's not gonna let him win. He
He's It's just a game, youknow, and he's got to win it
well and also, you know,they make a sort of you can it's
a very subtle thing that's going onin that game, which is that Alan

(12:16):
is still chained up, you know, and you can tell he's trying to
play ping pong while you know,obviously working with a every metal chain.
And it's not like Sam was like, here, let's make this game fair,
I'll unchain you so that you canproperly play. You know, the
handicap of that is actually intentional.And you know the other thing that made

(12:39):
occur to me about the ping pongOkay, let's get really deep for a
second, is where does that pingpong table come from? Like? Does
that is that a ping pong tablethat Sam and his father used to play?
Did his father used to dominate Sam? And ping pong? Is ping
pong source of strife and upset fromhis childhood? Maybe Sam trying to work

(13:05):
that out through being Alan as ifhe's beating his father. Like there's so
many levels, right, Like I'mnot even a psychoanalyst, but I'm coming
up with so many levels about pingpong. I love the way he just
rolled it out, you know,like I just happen to have a ping
pong table here that I'm rolling outfor the people I've chained up in my

(13:26):
basement. But yeah, yeah,in case things get dull, and I
just though my last thought was Samasks Alan how how he'd like to die,
and Alan finishes with this joke aboutthe three people who are asked how

(13:48):
they want to die, and theJew says old age, hoping you know
that that's gonna work, knowing thatit's probably not. Um, Yeah,
I don't think Sam's gonna be like, Oh, that sounds like a good
idea. Sure, I'll just letyou live here forever. That sounds great.
Yeah, yeah, uh oh,I'm so worried for Alan. I

(14:13):
can't help I can't stop worrying aboutAlan. Same yeah, and hope that
he can muster the khutzbah there's athere's a Yiddish word in there, just
the gript basically to do what heneeds to do. Yeah, hopefully he
can, and then with any luck, he'll be able to rebuild his relationship

(14:39):
with his son Ezra, for whomthe episode is titled. And that seems
like a great segue into our guesttoday safety who do we have with us?
Actor comedian and writer Andrew Leeds ison the show Today. Andrew is
known most recently for playing opposite AmandaSeyfried in The Drop Up and his recurring

(15:01):
roles as David Clark in Zoe's ExtraordinaryPlaylist and Leo Cusano in Barry. He
is also in the main company ofthe sketch comedy improv theater The Groundlings.
In La Andrew plays Ezra Alan's astrange son on The Patient and we have
so many questions for him. WelcomeAndrew, Hi, how are you doing

(15:24):
today? I'm good. How areyou guys? We're good, great,
Yeah, we are excited to talkto you. Excited to talk to you
guys. You know, this episodeis following the episode we just saw of
the Patient titled Ezra, and Iwas so appreciative of that episode because up

(15:46):
until that point we maybe didn't likeor understand Ezra all that much, and
so this episode really gave us aninside look, allowing us to feel a
little more empathic towards him. Andof course Ezra doesn't know that his father

(16:07):
has had a very similar kind ofepiphany in the same episode. But I'm
wondering if you could just talk alittle bit about this episode, and you
know how just the empathy that we'vedeveloped now for ezra Um. Yeah,
I mean, I think it's Ithink it's an interesting episode because I'm pretty
sure it's sort of the first timethat we that we see anything outside of

(16:36):
outside of Alan's life that's not inflashback. So it's the first time that
we sort of sense that people arelooking for him and what's going on there.
So there's something, you know,really interesting about that. And then
I think that because up until nowyou've just sort of I don't even know,

(16:57):
I'm curious, what were you guys, were you even thinking about that
as you watch the show that wehave no sense of like if people are
looking for him or right, Yeah, I'm definitely been thinking about that and
wondering how long it's going to takefor someone to even know that he's missing.
Do you have a sense of howlong it's been by the way that

(17:18):
he's been missing at least a week, maybe two weeks. People are asking
a lot of questions. I thinkyou can tell from the number of pills.
I think occasionally we see like himdump the pills that he takes out
on his hand, and that mightbe some sort of a clue as to
how many days it's actually been atthat point. I think if I recall,

(17:42):
I feel like it's maybe been aboutI want to say, two or
three weeks at this point. I'mnot mistaken. I could be wrong about
that, but but yeah, itwas. I mean, it was a
really interesting episode to shoot, unlikeany other episode of television ever worked on
in that so much of it isis silent. There's not a lot of

(18:04):
dialogue. Um. And so itwas just really interesting to shoot that because,
first of all, it doesn't takeless time as one might think.
It just takes you know, itstill takes like you know, hanging up
Flyers takes an entire day. Youknow, um, you get all those
to get all those shots. Um. But it's also just interesting because you
don't have any um, you don't. It's just you're so used to using

(18:30):
your words on television, um,that it's interesting to just you know,
exist and and be in the spaceand dealing with whatever the situation is and
not have any way to vocalize itor you know, it's just a different
just a different experience. Yeah.I was going to ask about that,

(18:51):
So I read an article recently thatwas an interview with the Jays. We're
still desperately trying to get on thisshow. If they're listening, amazing,
amazing, if they hopefully they'll comeand visit us. But I read an
interview with and one of them wastalking about the idea that the invention of

(19:11):
David Alan Greer's character Charlie the Therapistwas actually sort of a late addition to
the script because they had written halfwaythrough the script and realized that there was
no way for Steve carrell to expresshis inner feelings, Steve Carell's character Alan
to express his inner feelings about whatwas going on, because of course he
couldn't say how he really felt toSam. He has to keep himself away

(19:34):
from that. So the invention ofCharlie was really a way for us as
an audience to understand what's really goingon inside inside of Alan, right right.
And as I was reading that,I was thinking, the only person
who kind of gets screwed in thisscenario is Ezra, because we don't have

(20:00):
that experience with Ezra, and youare sort of tasked with doing you're almost
your entire role without a lot ofdialogue. You, I mean, I
can I feel like I can counton one hand the number of lines I've
heard you say in the in theshow at this point. Yeah, but
you're obviously you're so present and you'resuch a focal point of the show,

(20:25):
and I'm just wondering if you couldtalk a little bit about how you approach
the role, knowing that you aregoing to have to really silently communicate so
much of what the characters going through. Um, you know, I think
that what made it all very,very easy is that the scripts are so

(20:48):
good, and they're so layered andso textured, and I mean, I
really don't know how I'm also awriter, and I'm just like so blown
away by the Jays and their abilitiesand their talent. I don't really totally
know how they do it. Imean I tried to sort of ask them
a lot of questions along the waybecause I was so impressed and inspired by
what they had accomplished. But Ithink that they were they were so clear

(21:14):
about what they saw in their headsthat and they were able to you know,
and they included us in the process, um, you know, and
doing the table reads, and certainlywere always available to talk and um,
And I think I was able tosort of collect a lot of information from
them and then sort of just tapinto the parts of me that are similar,
you know, maybe to Ezra insome in some ways, even though

(21:37):
I think that we're pretty different inthe sense that I you know, I
can't ever imagine myself becoming that dedicatedto a religion, but um, unless
that religion were musical theater, andthen maybe, um but uh so I
think that that was that that reallyhelped a lot. And then the other
thing that helped a ton, wella couple of there are a few things

(22:00):
at all the time. Is thatthe costume. The Hope Panafin, who
did the costumes, She's just sospecific and so so real, and you
know, I mean I think Ipretty much wore the exact same thing the
entire shoot. Um, But puttingon those clothes and the way that they
they the way they fit, informedso much of it. Um. And

(22:23):
the beard and the hair style,which I still think is such a weird
thing. I don't know why thehair is so strange. Actually, I
mean not not, I mean,it was my decision, but look at
him like that. It is sostrange that sort of like pulled down in
the front, like you know,I mean, we tried to create a
sense of of time passing with likemy hair like receding essentially, you know.

(22:48):
So, um but I think thatum, not time passing in the
present, but from when when Iwas you know, younger to when I
wasn't older, but uh, thatmy hair receded in the three weeks that
he was missing. Um. Um. But I think all those things,
all those things really helped a lot. And then the thing that you know

(23:08):
helped enormously was the director, youknow, our resident director slash executive producer,
Chris Long, who's really meticulous andgenius and and so so just tapped
into the story and the characters andand seems to just have like such a

(23:29):
great And I actually worked with thema long time ago, like you know,
twice actually, like seventeen years agoor something like that. Um,
but I really got to see himlike really like do his thing here and
shine in a way that you know, I think I worked with them on
The Mentalist and another show called Dirt, and um this was like, you
know, he he just like hejust made it all very very easy because

(23:52):
he he really guided everything like withsuch a firm gentle hand, I would
say, and was so so generousand so you know and and and I
just knew, I don't know,just knew how to get what he was
looking for without without dialogue, youknow. He uh, he did that

(24:15):
just a little part where like Iwalk into the house and in the episode,
and I walk around the house andthen I go into the office and
I look at Alan's chair and thenI played the song. But just a
part where I walked around. Ijust got walked into the house and then
I sort of walked around the housefirst just a beat. And he came
up to me and he goes,oh my god, that was beautiful and

(24:36):
it's so beautiful. And I said, I said, I just walked into
a house and he goes, hegoes, yeah, he was beautiful.
I said, you mean the lightingwas beautiful or I was. He goes,
well, maybe he's a lying butbut but yeah, he just he's
just he's a wonderful guy. Andso uh and yeah, there were just
all these elements that came together.Everybody was so on top of it and

(25:00):
so specific and um and I thinkalso doing the table reads together all you
know, got really helped to sortof give a sense of the show.
And again, the characters are sowell drawn all of them, even the
smallest characters, are so well drawnthat I just don't the dialogue is in

(25:22):
this case, was irrelevant, Ithink to some degree. And I think
it's just so cool to see thaton television because you just don't see you
don't see people walking around putting upflyers for long periods of time and you
and you get something out of it. It's not just like you know,
you actually do have like an experiencewithout the dialogue, which is kind of

(25:42):
crazy. So I don't know ifI answered your question but mentored a lot
of questions Andrew, that was reallyYeah, definitely. I think one of
the burning questions that a lot ofpeople want to know is were the treats

(26:03):
that you brought to the house kosher? So there's been a lot of debate
whether I think you bought them atthe kosher market, but other people are
like, no, no, That'swhy it was so shocking you brought non
kosher treats to the house. Socan you can you solve that for us?
Or is that is that a spoileryou'd rather not tell us? No,
No, I can sell that foryou, and it's interesting. So

(26:25):
originally in the script, what Ibrought home was was non kosher treats And
I want to say it was actuallyice cream. Oh and you were calling
the scene where where my mom whereBeth serves the other my sister's family ice

(26:47):
cream and my kids can't have it. Um. So originally that's what it
was. And then they changed itto kosher candy. And I said to
Chris the director, I said,oh, I don't know why why did
you changed that? You know,and my recollection and I could be wrong
with this, my recollection was thathe said to me. It was they
felt, ultimately it was a steptoo far that if I had brought home

(27:10):
non kosher candy or not a nonKosh retreat, that it was just it
was too far. That the thatthe that just me bringing home candy was
enough of a of a moment.And I think that it's possible, and
this is speculation, it's possible theycame from the We had, you know,
a couple of um, really greath advisors from the Jewish community,

(27:37):
and they might have just felt likehe wouldn't have done that. He just
would have done that. It wasit's it's I'm not it's not exactly sure
or that it was just a littletoo a little too much. Um so,
But it is interesting because it's I'vehad a lot of people that asked
me about that, and it's aninteresting moment because obviously if it were non
kosher, the kids would definitely bereally weirded out. They're already a little

(28:03):
they're definitely weirded out by the justeven me bringing home candy. So yeah,
it's an interesting what did you whatwas your what was your interpretation of
it? Well, my interpretation wasthat it was kosher, that he would
never bring home something that wasn't,But that didn't explain the kids and Haba's
reaction to it. So you know, then, so why did they react

(28:25):
that way? And like what happenedback then in your son's room, like
because again that was silent, mostlysilent. Yeah, yeah, all silent.
I think that, you know,I do think that that they obviously
know what's going to the kids,and the wife know what's going on,
and they know that that there's beena riff between me and my father all

(28:48):
these years, and so I thinkthe reaction is is probably based more on
why are you bringing us? Can'tlike this is something feels wrong about this?
You know? Um, and Ido kind and in retrospect at the
time, I remember thinking like,oh, it is weird. Why is
he just not bringing home non kosherthat that seems more clear. But I

(29:11):
think that that it would imply thathe had completely lost faith. Yeah,
you know, like it would belike everything in my life is wrong.
And I think it would I do. I kind of get it now.
I think it would be a steptoo far in that in that way,
not in that, not in thathe couldn't do that, but that it
would be like he had sort ofgiven up and that he has given up

(29:33):
on his faith purely because they couldn'tfind his dad. Would in fact,
maybe he would be leaning more intohis faith, so you know, um,
so I think maybe that's why.But it was an interesting moment.
The also it was so interesting isthe and this is sort of how I
guess a good example too, ofhow the the set sort of functioned and

(29:57):
how the writing functioned. I mean, it was all it's all in,
I mean everything, all those everydetails in the in those scripts, and
it's so detailed, but there wasa little bit of you know, things
would happen and opening up those candyboxes. I'm not sure exact. I
mean my recollection, and my recollectioncould be wrong sometimes, you know,

(30:18):
it's hard. We don't remember exactlyon the day would happen, but I
remember I remember being like, oh, maybe I'll like just struggle a little
bit with one of these boxes.Yes, and then and then It's what's
funny about is I don't ever thinkI struggled that long. But I think
the way that they cut it togetherwas as if I just really couldn't open
up that right. Those things arehard to open for sure. Yeah,

(30:42):
I mean I could be wrong.Maybe I maybe I did struggle for that
long, but I did. Iwas surprised to see that turn. I
I thought maybe they would never evenuse that, that they would just you
know, not see me struggling withthe thing. But they know they used
quite a bit of it. It'sreally interesting about what we learn about Ezra

(31:02):
on episode eight that we haven't reallylearned before then. And you know,
you you've had Ezra's character largely describedas selfish, defiant, you know,
someone who is only interested in theirown path towards arthodox Judaism at the expense

(31:26):
of the family, and Alan clearlyhas a lot of anger and frustration,
and so that's the only version ofEzra we know for seven and a half
episodes. Really is that version untilthe first time we see you posting flyers
and then suddenly and there's never anything, there's nothing ever said that's like,

(31:51):
no, you know, this pictureis wrong. But through the episode,
I think as a viewer, Istarted to doubt my own perception of Ezra
that I you know, I feltlike it had been framed to me that
Ezra is this deeply selfish person,but in fact, here he is just
walking around town with a stable gun, put putting flyers up everywhere, and

(32:15):
the just the you know, theeffort of that. It suddenly made me
think like, well, wait aminute, maybe Alan's perception is wrong,
or maybe there's another side of thisstory, or maybe there's things that I
didn't understand, And I'm curious tolearn more about how Episode eight sort of

(32:38):
starts to humanize Ezra and maybe alsostarts to cast a little bit of doubt
on Alan's perception of events, youknow, that maybe it's not necessarily the
way he feels it is. AndI'm just curious for what your what your
thoughts were in the I mean,yeah, I think I think it does

(32:59):
for sure humanized Ezra. I meanthe truth is that I think I mean
they both were stubborn. I meanI would I would if I were.
I don't know if I should saythis, but I do think that Ezra's
decision to take on this lifestyle isnot just a religion, It's really also

(33:23):
a lifestyle. Right. I wasable to I was able to talk to
a family friend who went through avery similar thing with her child, and
um, you know, and shetalked about it's like anytime they come over
for dinner, it's like they haveto come with their plates, we have
to have two refrigerators, we haveto every you know, there's a lot
of extra things that get imposed onthe families that who aren't religious, who

(33:49):
aren't Orthodox, right, and soit it's I mean, you could argue
it's a little unfair. I meanfor sure, So you know it from
my perspective, I think like,well, you know, yeah, I
believe what you want to believe,but don't make life harder for everybody else.

(34:10):
And I think it's the disdain whichwith which Ezra sort of looks at
them. I mean, I guesshe's getting it back from from them as
well. So it's it's it's it'sa little unfair. But again, it
does seem like he's really imposing moreon them than they are imposing on him.
You know, I don't think he'sa bad person. I think he
just is dug in his heels andwants to make a point and would like

(34:35):
for everybody to believe what he believes, because I think if they don't,
you know, the people that heloves and respects don't believe. Obviously,
he thinks his father is a smartperson, and he thinks his mom,
obviously, who is a cantor inJewish synagogue and who is religious to some
degree, should understand this, andthe fact that they don't is very frustrating
and and makes him want them toalso agree with him. And I think

(34:59):
you to start to realize that,I mean I at least I sort of
realized through doing this. It's justthat not everybody is going to agree with
you, and you have to beokay with that. It's not worth it's
not it's not you don't need tospend time convincing everybody that you're right.
You could just all you could justjust be right, just be right.

(35:21):
You don't need to nobody else needsto agree with you that you're right if
you feel I mean, if youfeel you're right, you know, like
it's okay. And I think yousee a lot of that, especially now
with you know, social media,of everybody wants everybody to agree with them,
and you know, some people arejust not going to agree with you,
and maybe that's okay. I don'tknow if it's worth I'd be curious

(35:43):
what the study is, how manyhow many times you actually can convince people
to agree with you, because myguess is not that often, so maybe
it's really a great time sell them. Yeah, so I didn't really totally
answer your question there, but that'sall right. Actually I think you didn't
way, yeah for sure, Andyou you know, you you brought up
something that we talked about on thisshow a lot, which is that people

(36:07):
want to change, but they don'tnecessarily want to make the effort. And
I think that that's sort of anancillaria related to um. People want everyone
to agree with them, but they'renot necessarily willing to meet them halfway UM.
And I think that is kind ofa thematic element of the show to
a degree. Yeah, I meanmy therapist, I'm sorry, no,
no, go ahead, no,no, my therapist. You know,

(36:30):
there was something I had a littledisagreement with somebody about something, and and
it was it was business related,and I called the person to try to
talk it out, and the person, the person's response was like, you
know, no, that's not that'snot it's just not that's not. No,

(36:51):
that's not it. And and thenit escalated and escalated and escalated,
and you know, my therapist said, your biggest mistake was as soon as
they said no, that's not it, you should have just been like,
okay, I'll talk to you later. Like there was no there was no
convincing, there was no reasoning.It didn't matter. Even though I was
factually correct, it didn't matter.Didn't matter. You know, they're so,

(37:19):
yeah, what do you wanna do? Well? Change is really hard.
And I think what we see inthis episode, the moment when Ezra,
you know, says to Java thatyou know, he wasn't he wasn't
a good son. In the momentwhere Alan says to Charlie, oh my
god, I've given more grace tothe serial killer than my son. These
are painful, poignant moments, andwe need those moments to change. You

(37:45):
know, it's like growing pains,right, you know, when you're a
kid and you're growing and like yourbody hurts. Literally, growing pains are
painful but necessary in order to youknow, change, And I think that's
why again, this is such apowerful episode, an important episode in in
the journey of these two characters.Yeah, yeah, it is, for

(38:08):
sure. It's I mean, it'swell And I think what's so interesting about
the show is, um, isthat you the show is like, yeah,
on the surface, the show isabout a serial killer of duxist therapist
and tries to get the therapist tohelp him get better. Right, yeah,

(38:30):
but really, I mean, Imean I think this is on purpose.
And my friend who's a writer,was like, he's like, wait
a second. The Steve Correll isthe patient, you know, I mean,
especially once you see him there.But he it is true, and
so he's actually working through his thing. Um, maybe in a way I

(38:51):
would say more than Sam. Imean, Sam's sort of trying, but
like, but he's actually doesn't seemto really be making progress, right,
But Alan is actually kind of diggingthrough stuff and kind of making progress.
And I think what's so what's sointeresting about it is that you watched the
show and you actually don't see alot of the things that Steve Carell that

(39:14):
Alan's talking about. Um, wesee very little flashback actually, Um,
you don't see that for example,you know. And my friend said,
oh, you guys, I wantedto see the moment when when you stormed
out of the hospital and said,you know, you didn't want to you
know, take your my mom offlife support, you know, or whatever
that or you know, whatever thatpart was. And um, and I

(39:34):
said, I said, yeah,but you think you saw it now you'll
remember having seen it because you playedit on in your head and my performance
in your head was way better thanit will ever be. So it's kind
of an interesting thing because it's likethey talk about all this stuff and you
do start at least I do.When I'm watching it, I am I'm
imagining all of these things happening.Um, you know, when they went

(39:54):
to Israel and all that stuff likeyou imagine sort of happening. So it's
kind of it's kind of interesting tooto experience it like that. UM,
because I do think that you youkind of are working through it with Alan
in a certain way. UM.And and I think now that you got
to episode eight two, you alsostart to like, um, you can

(40:17):
imagine it even more and you startto like, you you do hook into
this story, which is you know, it's funny. Even people said to
me, look, do you havea big role. It's like, well,
not in it that much, actually, but it's an impe's important to
the story. Um U. Imean it's it's to me, it's a

(40:37):
it's that relate Alan and Ezra's relationshipis is really a lot of what the
show is about in a certain way. Um uh. It's the part that
I obviously, even if I werejust watching it, I think I would
connect to um uh in in themost way because I think there's the most

(40:59):
uh sort of feelings of you,you know, familial anger and regret and
heart and all those things that areI think I think that are there and
that are sort of percolating under thesurface throughout the entire you know, throughout
the entire series. Um and uhyeah, I mean maybe I'm maybe I'm

(41:22):
just thinking that because I because ofbecause of my role, but but um
having watched it with people and havingtalked to people about it, I feel
like they're they're now starting to seethat that is a bigger part of you
know, of what it is.Yeah, definitely. I Um, it's
interesting that you bring that point upbecause I think a major point of contention
that has talked about in the sessionsbetween Alan and Charlie is the kosher steak.

(41:50):
And yes, I love that.I love that part. I think
it's so funny, it's great andso clearly like it's just one word that
it takes to set somebody off ina certain direction. Yeah, because without
kosher in that sentence, it's acompletely different story. Did you catch it
right away, by the way whenhe said it, or did you did

(42:10):
it wait until the second time.I mean, I it occurred to me
in the moment like of like,oh, like I wonder if this is
a thing, and then it becamethat. Um, And I'm curious because
Okay, one of the things thatsort of starts to come out in that
conversation is Alan has a lot ofblame towards Hava, towards as his wife

(42:37):
and towards the her family. Andyou start to hear him spin a scenario
by which almost as if you theirson was somehow abducted by them or shanghaied
or bamboozled in some way so thatyou, you know, you fell off

(42:58):
of the path that you were onand were brought onto this new path.
And there seems to be a lotof frustration and anger towards Hava and her
family. And I'm wondering how muchof that. I mean, like,
I guess this is my question.And I don't know if you ever had
a conversation with the Jays about this. Ultimately, how much is Ezra responsible

(43:23):
for his own actions versus Ezra beinginfluenced by others for his actions? How?
You know, how what's the splitthere on that kind of thing?
Do you have a thought on that? I mean, that's a good question.
I mean I always I always thoughtand talking to the Jays that you

(43:45):
know that Ezra was sort of lostin looking for some sort of meeting and
U which is I mean, youcould say about every obviously every character in
the show. Um, I thinkto a large degree, and I think
that so it's hard to say,like, I don't I don't think that.

(44:06):
I never thought of it as ashim being like abducted or or coerced
or like that he was joining acult. I mean I never thought of
it like that, and I justthought, you know, he's at school
and this is the group that hesort of ultimately fell into and got more
and more into it, and thatit made sense to him. And there

(44:27):
were people that were, um,that were gravity you know, that that
were kind to him, and youknow, and he I just always got
the sense that he was somebody thatwas never really sure what his path was.
He never was like good at anythingreally or not good anither like never
like great at anything, um,and didn't kind of know what to do

(44:54):
or what he wanted, and maybedidn't have like great you know, romantic
relationships. Um. And so thisjust sort of felt like, um,
felt like a path worth trying.And then he got super into it,
um, which I know, Iknow people like that in many ways,
in in in religion or in inwhatever it may be. But um,

(45:16):
So that was the sense I alwaysgot. I don't think it was a
I don't think he was like brainwashednecessarily a purposely you know, Um,
I think it was. I thinkit was his decision. Well. I
think it was also so interesting aboutit in the Jay's talked about this a
lot, is that he chose hechose to work at a you know,

(45:38):
he chose to work at a mailboxplace like that wasn't in his destiny,
right, like necessarily he in thesense that he could have you know,
he grew up in a seemingly ofa you know, at least a middle
class if not middle the upper classfamily, and went to college and could
have gotten some sort of a jobthat wasn't you know, um working for

(46:00):
his wife's father in a mailbox place, sitting around all day, you know.
I mean he's reading his you know, uh, his scripture, you
know, uh, what do youwant to call it? The I guess,
but it's not what's the what's thewhat's the book called Tomas? Remember
right now? Yeah? Thank you? Um, you know, uh.

(46:24):
And I think that that's it's aninteresting choice to decide that that's what you
that's what you want for your life, you know. Um, But he
made that choice. So uh.I mean, I guess they always I
think Alan and Beth probably were justhoping it was a phase and that he
would move out of it, becauseit is a choice, and it's you

(46:45):
know, for some people, that'sthat's great, I guess, yeah,
um, yeah, I'm wondering,um about the mother son relationship. You
know, I'm a mother of twosons, and you know, think about

(47:07):
you know, I've really I meanI always think about this as a psychologist
and a mother, but think about, you know, my influence or lack
thereof on my son's and m oneof my sons is watching the show,
and and so one of his questionswas tell us about the mother's son relationship.
So you know, maybe it's onhis mind too. But what are

(47:29):
your thoughts about that, um,either in the show, how it relates
to your mother son relationship, anyof that. UM. I mean,
it's interesting. We don't get tosee a ton of it um in the
show, and we don't get tohear about it from best perspective obviously,

(47:51):
in order we hear about it fromEzra's perspective. You know, we see
that one a couple of moments.UM. But I think that that,
yeah, it's not I mean,I think it's tough when you're close with
somebody, as I think Ezra andBeth were. And there were some scenes

(48:15):
actually that cut flashback scenes before youknow, when I for young younger,
younger Ezra and younger Shoshana with Beth, and you know, they were always
very connected by music, Like therewere these scenes in the car, I
think where they were, they weresinging together. If I recall um and
Beth and Ezra specifically were connected,you know, through music and um.

(48:37):
And so I think, you know, in Ezra's mind, there was a
death in the family, the momentthat they rejected his his faith and his
you know, and what he whathe wanted to do. And I think
that anything short of I'm sorry,I was wrong from Beth, he wasn't

(49:00):
gonna he wasn't gonna forgive her,you know. Um yeah, And and
I think that, you know,again, it comes from wanting to be
right, wanting to convince other people. But I think it's really sad,
you know. And I think it'syou know, my relationship. I have
a great relationship with my mom,and um, Um, I can't even

(49:24):
imagine, I mean, I almostcan't even imagine what that would be like
for her to say, like,you know, I mean, we've definitely
had even even if we've had adisagreement, it's been you know, upsetting,
you know. So uh. Ithink in this case, he felt
like he was constantly being attacked anytimehe went over there, anytime and he

(49:49):
was he was being judged and attacked. So um, I think he you
know, I think he gave itwhat he thought was his best effort.
And then at a certain point,And I know a lot of people like
this, you don't talk to theireither their parents or to their brothers or
sisters or and I always think it'skind of unfathomable. I'm always like,
just figure it out. Yeah,but I don't know. I guess sometimes

(50:12):
you can't, yeah, you know, and sometimes maybe it's better just not
to be in each other's lives.I guess. I don't know. I
think it's sad, but yeah,for sure. And I think she probably
felt really sad about it also,you know, and and didn't you know,
I think she felt like she lostyou, and you know, you
both kind of felt that way,you know, and just felt isolated.

(50:37):
It's it is, it's a reallysad situation. Well, you know,
it's interesting. There was a linethat got cut in this last episode that
I thought was really interesting that Ireally, I really liked, and you
know, I guess they feel likeI felt like they didn't actually need to
say it. But when when Ezracomes home and he sits on the couch
and he says, basically, Iwasn't a good son, you know,

(50:58):
and he says I was just Ithink he says, I was just angry
at him, you know. Buthe said, he said, he said
originally he said this what it wasn'tsupposed to be forever? H you know.
And I thought that was a reallyinteresting line. I don't think he
felt. I think he felt atsome point that they were going to figure
it out. Yeah, you know, wow, you know. Um,

(51:22):
so, yeah, that's really tellingin a lot of ways because I think
people view disagreements it's temporary, butI think sometimes we don't understand that life
is temporary, that's right. Yeah. Yeah, it's a great sort of
insight into that. Yeah. Yeah, so I think that that's probably what,

(51:44):
you know, although interestingly obviously itwas for him and Beth because Beth
passed away. So yeah, youknow, uh, I mean, I
think the biggest, the biggest sortof at least that I can that I
know of that, the biggest sortof the terrible thing that Ezra did was
was at the hospital. That wasrough, you know, to not be

(52:07):
there for his mom when she whenshe died. Yeah. I think about
that a lot. And just there'seither got to be so much anger and
resentment inside a person to make thatdecision to feel like this is the only

(52:29):
acceptable outcome. Is that I I, you know, sort of deny my
parents dying wishes, um, becauseyou know, this is more important to
me. I just I try toimagine the headspace that a person would be
in to be that determined about something, you know, Yeah, that winning

(52:52):
winning that argument is more important thanbeing with them in their last moments on
earth, right right. Yeah,It's it's pretty pretty tough to swallow.
Yeah, I mean, I mean, I think it says a lot.
I mean, we've been talking abouthumanizing as as a person, but for

(53:15):
me, that part of it isstill like, Wow, I need a
lot more information about what happened herein terms to really be able to understand
and identify with how that decision wasmade, because it just seems to me
as a person, like wow,that that seems really extreme to take it

(53:37):
to that level. Yeah, yeah, it is. It is extreme,
for sure. Yeah, but hedid he but he fundamentally, with all
of his soul and religion disagreed withthe decision that was being made. And
I mean, I think that's sortof. The The unfortunate thing about you

(53:58):
know about religion is that you haveto have strong belief, but then you
also may have strong belief in somethingyou know you can't. There's no gray
area in a lot of ways.So, yeah, it's it's funny you
mentioned that. So I've just beenworking on a play that's also about conflict
between a couple who is an OrthodoxJew they follow Orthodox Judaism and then these

(54:22):
people who are reform and there isan argument at one point in which they're
saying, well, we just thisis our Judaism, and the Orthodox Jew's
response is there's only one Judaism,right, You're either doing it this way
or it's not Judaism right. AndI think that is really how they feel.

(54:42):
Yeah, for sure, for sureyou are you're a writer. Is
you working to play? You're writingit? I'm not writing it. No.
This is a play that I createdthe music for and the sound design
for. It's currently playing at theOld Globe Theater in San Diego. It's
called what we talk About When wetalk about Frank. Yeah, great things
about it. And actually I justread a great play that was also at
the Old Globe in twenty eighteen.It's going to New York called The Wanderers,

(55:07):
Oh yeah, which is fantastic,and it's also about it's about an
Orthodox Jewish couple and then also anotherJewish couple there but they're not in the
same timeline. But um, butalso really really just a really really good
play. Yeah, it's interesting howorthodox duty is I'm sort of has come

(55:29):
into the zeitgeist in this moment ofsort of being examined. Yeah, and
I want and you know, Lauraand Emi actually made this point when she
appeared with us on this episode,which is that the religious sort of argument
of what is right and what isn't, what is pure and what isn't,

(55:49):
those arguments are analogous to politics.They are analogous to many different facets of
our life. So it's really interestingwhen you start exploring this and the extremes
that people go to. Um,you may not necessarily have that from a
religious point of view, but it'sbecoming more and more prevalent in our society
these days, that people are takingextreme positions as a way of defining who

(56:15):
they are. Yeah. Yeah,it's a result everything's becoming more polarized.
Absolutely. Yeah. And by theway, Laura is so good. She's
such a good actor. She's sogood on the show. And I just
to quickly say that, I,you know, I really think that every
every every part on the show isso well cast. Um, Genie backrack

(56:37):
Is, the casting director, isjust so good at her job. It's
unbelieve. I don't know, ifyou know, like she cast the dropout,
she cast station eleven. Is thatwhat's called? Yeah, that's right,
and Bear as well. I meanjust I mean the list goes on
and on and on. She justlike is so so good. So we've
also been trying to get her onour show as well. She's so busy.

(57:00):
You mentioned that to me. She'sso busy. Yes, yeah,
I mean, yeah, she's clearlydoing a great job. Yeah. And
she really, I mean she really, you know she, I mean there
were people that I worked with itI didn't I didn't know at all,
and she, you know, shereally found all these just great people that,
um, you know, when I'mwatching the show, it's like the

(57:21):
the guy who plays the Um,the guy who plays his boss, the
woman who plays his ex wife,the the the other guy who plays Um,
his old teacher who he goes suchinteresting actors, and um and the
woman who plays my wife, youknow, all the kids like um,

(57:45):
my sister, like all these peoplejust like so so good and um yeah
and Linda Eman, who's incredible andyeah, it's just so it's such as
so it's so meticulous and well done, you know. Yeah, it's really
true. I wanted to ask youjust a little bit about just trying to

(58:07):
do this show as an actor.You Stacy alluded to this in her intro
of you, that you're in themain company of the Groundlings, which is
an improvisational truth based in Los Angeles, and you actually mentioned that you're you
know, you have a background ofmusical theater, so like you come from
a place or you you frequent ina place which is extroverted types of acting,

(58:30):
you know, which is you know, full full out acting if you
want to call it that. Yeah, And so you are cast in this
role of Ezra, which is reallyabout control. It is really about tightly
controlled, you know, constrained,I think, and I'm wondering do you

(58:53):
are you able to draw on anyof your experiences from improv or musical theater
in that world to to use thatas part of your acting process. Well,
I think I think a few thingscome to mind when you ask that

(59:14):
question. I mean, one ofthe things I think that that that I
learned, that I've like honed andlearned at the Groundlings is just you know,
we we we create our own characters. We do our own writing there.
You know, we do sketch comedy, which is a big part of
what I do there, and alot of that is costuming the character,

(59:34):
I mean, wig hair, youknow all we do it all ourselves.
So I've spent a long time,you know, many many years running around
a good Will and you know,and running out the week stores all over
town and like doing all that myself. So I like to think that that's
something I mean, I really careabout that, I really love doing it.
So I like to think that it'ssomething that I've developed a little bit

(59:55):
of a skill for. Um.And you know, and when we're creating
these characters at Groundlings, it's it'syou know, it's how you it's how
does a person talk, how doesa person walk? How does like all
these things? And so you don'tget to push it as far as you
do on that stage at the Groundlings, but you know, I noticed the

(01:00:17):
little things you know as were theway as Rare walks is not exactly how
I walk, Like the the wayhe holds his face is different. And
part of that is also just havinga beard, right. I mean that
that changes things. It changes theway you move your face, It changes
the way you um, it changesthe way you feel right. Um,

(01:00:38):
it just makes you feel like adifferent person. So um, even you
know, wearing the yamaka makes youfeel like a different person. Um.
It's the like I said before,it's like the pants that these quarter right
pants. I remember when when Hopethe costumer designer put them on me.
I remember feeling like, oh,these are pants that I would buy for
a Groundling show because they they're totallyThey're totally, but they're they're just a

(01:01:00):
little bit off, like they justthey don't they're like a little they don't
fit quite right. But you getwhy, you get why these are his
pants that he wears every day.It's just like, you know, so
I feel like that that all thatstuff at the Groundlings always helps me to
sort of find the care. Itjust just trained me how to think about

(01:01:22):
you know that stuff. Or it'salso possible that I gravitated towards the groundings
because it's something that I already thoughtabout. But it definitely made me better
at it for sure, because Igot to try stuff in front of audiences,
right, So I got to trythe shirt that was a little too
crazy in front of an audience andfeel what that felt like. And I
was like, Okay, that shirt'snot It's got to be more subtle.

(01:01:43):
It's got to be you know,because you can find some crazy stuff a
good will. Let me tell you, um, people have actually worn too.
So it's not like people don't wearthe stuff, but there are limits,
um, you know. One ofthe things that Hope found was that
at some point, I think theJay's or Chris Long the director said,
you know, he's got to havelike that that type of jacket. There's
like a black type of jacket thatlike that you know, Orthodox that they

(01:02:07):
could picture and you know, andand they she found this great jacket that
felt like it just really became partof the character. And it's the shoes
as well. Like I actually sawsomebody walking down the street yesterday, I
think, and uh, and Iwas like, I was like, I
think that person must be Orthodox,but I'm not totally sure because they didn't
see the prayer shall hanging out becauseI couldn't. His chart was really long.

(01:02:30):
But then I like, I lookedat the shoes and I was like,
and I looked at some other Iwas like, no, it's got
it's gotta be it's gotta be.Like so it's like you're like little tiny
tells. But anyway, um,so I think that that played and then
and then with with a role likethis, the first of all, there
was a little bit of improvisation thathad to occur. Not it's not meant
to be funny, but just likeyou know, we're around the table,

(01:02:50):
we're talking, you know, youknow, with the ice cream scene,
there was like a little bit oftalking that occurs there that that you know,
that having a little bit of abackground and improv at least helps help
somewhat. But also I think justnot you know, in a way,
all of it was sort of improvisationalbecause it's like you're, you know,
putting up flyers on the street,like you know, you it's not improvisational

(01:03:16):
in the same way that it isthe groundings where it obviously is. There's
a lot of dialogue that that's avery different skill set in a lot of
ways, but there is a freedomthat you start to feel when you do
it, a lot that I thinkyou can bring into your work otherwise.

(01:03:37):
And I do feel like in thiscase, you know, maybe my brain
was opened up a little bit moreto the possibilities of just like, oh,
you're hanging up flyers, okay,so what are the possibilities here?
Right? And you know one ofthe things that I think, you know,
I did this actually every time I'mup a flyer, I would staple

(01:03:58):
it and then I would kind ofgive it a little bit of like a
little touch like afterwards, like ina sort of like superstitious, obsessive compulsive
way, because at some point earlyon I sort of decided that maybe he
had some obsessive compulsive tendencies because itfelt to me like there is that in

(01:04:20):
religion to some degree. Like youknow, you call it religion, you
call it superstition, you call ityou know, there's a lot of like
like you know, I can't turnthe lights on on Saturday nights, like
tradition, whatever you want to callit. But like I felt like that's
somebody whose brain is like searching formeaning and searching for some structure and searching
for those things, and so itfelt like something. So it felt like,

(01:04:41):
Okay, whenever he hangs up aflyer, he's gonna in his mind
if he doesn't like give it likethat extra little pat like they're not going
to find his dad ultimately. Youknow, there's only one moment like that
where you see me sort of dothat. The rest of them they sort
of cut around, but nobody,nobody stopped me at the time. But
like, that's sort of like amoment that like I feel like, I
don't know, was not premeditated.It just was sort of in the moment,

(01:05:04):
like and then once I did it, it felt right, and so
I kept doing it. Um Again. I don't know if that necessarily came
from years of improv improv, butbut it's possible, you know, to
some degree. And then the otherthing is, you know, this is
such a rare, a weird rolein that I had to actually sing and

(01:05:26):
play the guitar a little, althoughyou don't get to really see me play,
you know, it's it's it's sucha you know, it's not like
there's I'm not really sitting there playingguitar. It's like a you know,
by myself just sort of lightly pluckingand you know, I guess eventually in
the song playing it. But Idon't think had I, for instance,
not done Zoe's extraordinary playlist, Idon't know that. I mean, I

(01:05:49):
know, I remember Chris the directorsaying to me like, oh I saw,
we saw you. They someone sentus a clip of you singing you
know, I want to break Freein the Courtroom and Zoe's, and I
think that was sort of what Iwas like, Oh, okay, great,
so he can do this other partof it as well. So I
do think that that helped, youknow, certainly helped me get the job

(01:06:13):
and help me help me feel comfortablebecause on Zoe's most of the you know,
most of the songs and Zoe's wereprerecorded, I think, with the
exception of maybe four times out ofover a hundred songs and I two of
them were were songs that I didon Zoe's. And mostly again, I
think I was able to do thatbecause two of them, I wasn't really

(01:06:35):
moving around too much, so theywere able to like let me do it.
But also I sort of felt likeI felt like I could better communicate
the song if I didn't have tolip sync it, and I just never
thought, no matter, the onlytime I've ever seen the lip sync like
really really looked like perfect is inwest Side the movie West Side Story.

(01:06:57):
Yeah, like it was. Itreally just looked like it was coming out
of their mouths. So I justalways felt like, I don't want it
if it's like an emotional moment,I don't want it to look like it's
not coming out of my mouth.And so in this case, we were
absolutely going to prerecord it for thefor episode eight of The Patient, and

(01:07:19):
I said, you know, Ireally don't want to because I first of
all, I've done it before andI know it can work without prerecording it.
But more importantly, I don't thinkI can lip sync and lip and
finger sync the guitar like in away. That's unless it's going to be
like on a click track, right, I think it's going to be really

(01:07:40):
impossible. I think it would havebeen impossible. I mean I don't,
I don't. I'm not a skillguitar player. I'm not able to I
mean I don't. I mean evena skilled guitar player, I think might.
No, they probably could have done. A scill guitar player could have
could have like matched them exactly.You know what I mean. I actually
had to match myself on the pianoon Zoe. I had to match someone
else on the piano on Zoe whereit was like I was making mistakes too,

(01:08:02):
so it was like, you know, it was like purposely made mistakes
and that actually wasn't that bad.But the guitar, I'm just not as
skilled that. So, but Ido think that, um that just having
had that experience on Zoe's made mefeel comfortable at least to just go in
there and you know, and doit, do it live and let the
cars fall where they fall. Yeah, And I mean, I think it

(01:08:24):
really suited the moment because you know, you're really certainly it's not a planned
performance and there's not like there's anaudience. You're really you're really trying to
reconnect with your with your mother inthat moment, I think through playing her
guitar, and so it's I thinkit's a really beautiful moment. I can't
imagine trying to pre record it andthen match it because it's really it's really

(01:08:46):
enacting moment more than it is itis. That's true, yeah, exactly.
So you know there's always the fearwhen you do it live that it's
just not going to sound good.So that's obviously scary because you can't.
It's also really hard. It wouldbe hard for them to like pitch correct,
for example, because the guitar isalso at the same time, and
so it would be very, verydifficult. Also there's also the risk of

(01:09:08):
like when you pull the guitar outof the case, that you hit the
knob and it gets on tune,you know what I mean. So it's
also a very was a very weirdthing. It was probably of all the
things I've ever found, it wasmaybe the weirdest thing because it was the
most vola. I think it wasactually the most vulnerable I've ever really felt,
because there's like, you know,I don't know, forty fifty people
they're sort of watching it, andyou're just by yourself, and all you

(01:09:33):
can do is just be just dowhat Ezra was doing. And you don't
know, you don't you have knownnothing to gauge, like, you're not
acting with anybody else, you don'tknow, you just don't know anything.
So it's sort of very strange tojust sit there and play the guitar and
by yourself it's when you're not byyourself. It's it's a weird it's a

(01:09:57):
weird experience. Andrew. It wasa beautiful moment, really, and I
think you sounded just the way youwere supposed to sound in that really emotional
moment. And um, I thinkit was just beautiful. It was a
little surprising and the connection both ofyour mom and your dad by singing the
song that he sang to Elias ina previous episode, and it was beautifully

(01:10:20):
done. Oh yeah, that's that'svery nice. Um. And it was
Yeah, it was just it wasit was such a good experience. And
I got to work with this greatum, this great singer. I don't
think he lived in his reel fora while and he is like he is
orthodox, um Jewish, but hereally helped me a lots of Guy de

(01:10:43):
vide and uh yeah, he wasjust was really really helpful and awesome.
That's God, that's great. Yeah. I think Laura I mentioned him as
well as as a person who helpedher guide her through her songs as well.
Yes, yes, yes, yep, fantastic m Andrew. This has

(01:11:03):
been such a great experience to talkwith you and learn so much about your
character. And also your approach tothe show. Um, we are so
grateful for you for sitting with usand talking with us today. Thanks so
much for being Thank you guys intothe blast. I'm so glad you guys
are enjoying the show so much.Yeah, thank you, Andrew. Oh
yeah, we love it. Yeah, we've really really enjoying the show and

(01:11:26):
really enjoy talking to you and gettingsome of your insights on Ezra. So
um, yeah, thank you somuch for taking the time. Thank Yeah.
I can't wait for you guys tosee the last two episodes. Same.
No, we're dying. What youthink happens? Oh my god,
you really want to know what wethink happens? I do, Yeah,

(01:11:47):
well I think that, Um,why do I think happens? Well,
I think that Sam is going tohave to, you know, try to
kill Alan, and Alan is goingto have to really get get going,
you know, he's sharpening that youknow, foot cream, and he's going
to have to try to kill orat least, you know, um,

(01:12:11):
do something with Sam. He doesn'thave much time because I don't think Sam
will keep him you know, intime. You know, he's going to
go to his own there his othertherapy. So I don't know if the
cavalry is coming or not. Like, there's no I can't find anything to
say unless the other therapist sees thatsign that you've put up. So maybe,

(01:12:33):
but I don't know. Oh right, okay, interesting. Yeah,
I mean there's a lot of there'sa lot of discussion on all of the
fan groups which Stacy and I areparts of, and it seems to have
been evenly divided between two camps.The first camp are people who believe that

(01:12:56):
everything is all in Alan's mind andthat Alan is technically imprisoned, and that
the whole thing is just a fantasy. And I know that that's the thing
that makes Stacy want to commit homicide. And then and then there's another group
that's like, no, no,this is really happening, and Alan's got
to find a way to get outof this. Because I am an optimist,

(01:13:18):
I am hopeful that somehow Alan canget his way out, but I
do think he's going to have topush through his own fear and his own
sort of preconceptions of how every situationhas to go in order to get to

(01:13:39):
the right place. Yeah. Interesting, all right, Well, I'm excited
to see I'm excited to see whatyou guys do you guys think? Thank
you. I really appreciate it.Yeah, great talking to you. So
that was Andrew Leeds and what agreat interview that was. That was so

(01:14:01):
helpful. He answered so many questions, he really did. And you know,
I think the theme of this show, of our episode of this show,
but also the episode eight of ThePatient, it's really about finally humanizing
these people in this story, youknow, giving us a chance to really

(01:14:27):
understand where they're coming from. Ifeel like we've been I mean rightfully,
so we've been distracted by the partof a man locked up in a basement
being afraid for his life while otherpeople, while people were being murdered in
front of him. That would takeup a decent amount of your mental space
for sure. But in addition tothat, we learn a lot about how

(01:14:53):
these people came to be and alsojust like the sort of like the Rich
in the story of understanding these familyrelationships, in these family dynamics that have
split them apart, you know,have isolated them, and it really makes

(01:15:14):
you wonder in these last two episodes, like are they going to get back
together? I mean, like ifAlan dies and he never sees Ezra again,
what's that like? You know,well, and you know, the
moment you see him hanging up theflyers, I know that my first thought
was, oh, he does misshis father, you know, like that

(01:15:36):
was that was really heartening, hearteningto me. So and then when Alan
has this, you know, epiphany, both of them have this epiphany,
I thought, Wow, I reallyhope they get to tell each other this,
you know, because that would reallybe so important for their relationship.

(01:15:58):
And so Andrew's point that he thoughtit was just temporary, but you know,
if they don't ever get reunited,it's not It's permanent, you know,
this rift. So I hope thatmeans that they will be able to
come together. And I hope wecould see that. We might not be
able to see that, we mightjust have to infer it. But yeah,

(01:16:19):
yeah, yeah, I mean,like the closer we get to the
end of this series, I'm reallyreally like, how how are they going
to wrap this up? How arethey gonna do it? I don't know,
I know, And like when Andrewasked us how how he thinks the
series is gonna end, like ata certain point, like I've got some

(01:16:40):
ideas, but I don't know.Man, I just don't know how they
figured this out. Well, Imean, clearly they have figured it out,
but yeah, but I do think, yeah, they've shot it right.
I do think that Ezra. No, I do think that Andrew put
to rest the idea that this isall in Alan's head when he said this

(01:17:09):
is the first time we see Ezra, not from a flashback. So I
know some people were at least andthe person I was talking to on the
Facebook group said no, I waskind of joking about that, but you
know, she said, well,maybe Alan is still just imagining Ezra putting
up flyers, but no, hemade it really clear that Ezra is a

(01:17:30):
real person putting up flyers because Alanis missing. So come on, everybody,
now join join Lindsey and I inthinking these are it's just really happening.
There two characters, one is aserial killer, one is a therapist.
And it's exactly as it seems.Stacy will no longer put up with

(01:17:53):
your whole this is all in Alan'shead theory. It's not acceptable, but
we have to get on the train. This is me trying to convince everybody
that I'm right. Yes, you'vetaken an extreme position and now you won't
let go. I won't let go. I know it happens to all of
us. What can we do?Yeah, I have to say that the

(01:18:15):
most the most valuable thing I gotout of that interview with Andrew was the
knowledge of that cut line. Thatis, I didn't think it would be
forever to me, like, that'slike, oh wow. I mean,
like, I get why they cutit because they felt like they're already saying
it. But at the same time, knowing that is how Ezra feels just

(01:18:42):
makes makes his pain and also makestheir separation all that more appointed to me
because I'm just like, because they'veboth they've both figured it out, they
both figured out why that this wholething is is not worth it and that
they should resolve their their differences,and so it's it's quite something to see

(01:19:03):
them both understand that. And uhand then wonder if it's too late,
you know, if it is ifit's no longer possible. Yeah, for
sure. I also thought his friendscomment, and again, we can't take
this literally. Wait, Alan isthe patience, So not literally everyone,

(01:19:27):
but metaphorically speaking right, metaphorically speakingthat that Alan is going through his own
like self therapy here and and toAndrew's point that he's certainly changing and growing
much more than Sam is because hehad that real epiphany. Um yeah,

(01:19:49):
that was also really an important thingto hear. Yeah, it really is.
Okay, I guess our time isup. I have to see our
time is up. We'll see yournext session. Thank you for joining us
on Psychoanalyzing the Patient.