"The Cantor's Husband" w/ Amanda Pollock & Patricio Farrell

This is it! Our final episode. We decided to have two guests this week to wrap things up. This week we welcome Art Director Patricio Farrell and Film Editor Amanda Pollock. Enjoy!
From Straw Hut Media

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
Straut Media. Okay, everyone,we're going to do the episode ten recap.
The episode is called The Cantor's Husband. This is the final episode of
The Patient. So here's my lastspoiler warning. If you haven't watched the

(00:22):
last episode of The Patient, episodeten, please stop the podcast, go
watch it on Kouloo, and thencome back. Okay. So episode ten
starts with Alan calling Candice down tothe basement to warn her that Sam is
going to kill his father in orderto make himself better. Candice basically seems

(00:44):
nonplussed buddy this, like, shouldshe care? She's not sure whether she
should care or not. She basicallybrings down a beer for both of them
and sits down into the lazy Boy, you know, to relax. We
see Say go to his dad.His dad, you know, seemed a
bit younger and less imposing than Ihad imagined him. I think, yeah,

(01:10):
but you know, and dad liketells him to come in and makes
them a sandwich. There's a veryinteresting scene where Sam goes to the bathroom
because this man has to pee everywhere, and you see his face in the
shaving mirror. I don't know ifhe caught that, but that was a
very interesting shot yeah, And thenwe see Candice and Alan talking. She

(01:34):
admits how much she worries about Sam, how bad she feels for his victims,
but she won't call the police.She cries and Alan hands her some
tissue over lunch, then Sam askshis dad why he hit him so much.
His dad responds that he doesn't know. Sam was a weird kid.

(01:57):
He couldn't follow the rules, hecouldn't play games, he had no friends.
He kind of brought up Candice thatshe isolated herself with her books and
blamed the dad for why Sam wasthe way he was, and he kind
of halfheartedly says that he's sorry.Sam stands up, throws his dad to
the ground, and gets on topof him and starts to choke him,

(02:21):
like this is the moment he iskilling his father, and then he suddenly
stops. He releases his hold onhis neck and says, my therapist told
me not to kill you. Weimmediately cut to Sam telling Allan that he
stopped, that he no longer wantedto kill his father. He was so
surprised that he didn't. He said, the feeling of hating him made him

(02:46):
want to kill him, and that'swhat made him want to kill everybody,
but it suddenly made him not wantto kill his dad. Alan suggests that
Sam hates this violent part of hisdad. Since he's trying to not be
like him, maybe he no longerwanted to kill him. Alan calls this

(03:07):
a major breakthrough, and then heannounces to Sam that it's time to let
Alan go home. He says thathe needs to get back to his family.
He tells him about the struggle he'shaving with his son and that he
wants to get back to him fortheir own breakthrough. He says, people
don't deserve to die for falling short. We are all broken vessels. He

(03:30):
suggests that Sam can see him inhis office every day if he wants,
and promises not to turn him in, and says that he is obligated by
confidentiality not to turn him in unlesshe has an overwhelming urge to kill again,
at which point then he will needto be institutionalized. He tells Sam

(03:51):
how proud he is of him.The next morning, we see Sam and
Mom in this bright, cheery kitchenyou know, at their breakfast nook.
We also see Alan talking to Charlieagain one wondering about the miracle that Sam

(04:15):
didn't actually kill his father. Maybethe therapy is working. Charlie comments that
Sam just needs a replacement father,and Alan says, well, I'm not
spending the next ten years down here, and Charlie agrees and says, no,
you are not, this very definitivecomment, which I think is really
interesting. Alan then picks up thenote pat and starts writing on it.

(04:41):
We don't know what he's writing,but it's quite lengthy. Goes on for
some time, and at the endAlan makes a comment that a little machiguna
maybe, and which means a littlecrazy, but we don't know what he's
referring to. He then calls Samout of his room and what appears to

(05:02):
be in the middle of the night, he's constantly waking Sam. It's amazing.
Sam just accepts this. That's whatwould make me a serial killer.
He tells Sam that he didn't getto tell him what he really wanted to
tell him the day before. It'snot working for him in the basement.

(05:23):
He doesn't always know how to communicateto Sam, and he tells him that
he's not going to treat him anymore. So Alan's really upping the auntie here.
He tells Sam that in order forhim to get better, he needs
to be physically stopped from acting outhis compulsions, physically prevented from prevented from

(05:44):
hurting anyone else. He tells himthat he needs the time in the space
to heal from this and from whathis father did to him. He commends
his wishes to change and suggests thatit's time for him to turn himself in.
He says, very definitively, ourtherapy is over. You can turn
yourself in or end it the otherway. Sam says he doesn't want to

(06:09):
do this, but Alan states thathe doesn't want to live in the basement
anymore like a pet. The nextmorning, we see Sam sitting outside the
police station mulling it over. Candicebrings Alan food and tells him that Sam
is not ready to stop therapy.Alan then decides to be brutally honest with

(06:31):
Candice and tells her that she didher job raising Sam when he was being
abused, she took no steps tostop it. She didn't protect him,
she didn't call the police. Heknows that it wasn't her fault, but
that she didn't know what else todo, but she didn't protect him.

(06:55):
She starts to cry, and hehandsered the tissue, and as he reaches
for it, Alan grabs her andputs her in a bit of a chokehold.
So that whole giving her the tissuewas really a foreshadowing, I think.
And he places the sharpened foot creamtube against her neck and calls Sam
down the stairs, tell Sam thathe will kill her if Sam doesn't call

(07:19):
the police. Sam thinks that he'sbluffing. There's a lot of yelling going
on, and Sam gets really upsetthat Alan is interrupting him down here where
we let each other finish. Yeah, Sam is mad. He said you
said I was getting better, andI believed you. Alan says, I

(07:41):
also told you last night that youneed to be physically stopped from acting out
your compulsion. He forced, basicallyforces him to make a choice. Sam
doesn't think that Alan is the kindof man who actually will kill someone,
and then we see Alan draw blood. We suddenly then see a shot of

(08:07):
Alan in in the concentration camp,in in a sorry in the gas chamber.
He's with Beth. Beth her hairravaged by chemo. The gas starts
to come out. We hear whatI can only imagine is the backwards Klesmer

(08:28):
music that Nathan Barr told us about, and it is very disturbing that that
music. The scene then cuts toAlan at Ezra's house. Everyone is happy
and glad to be together. Wethink that Alan has been saved and he
has prepared his relationship with his son. There's a meal being served I'm guessing

(08:52):
it's Shabbat, and there's Hebrew singingaround the table. It's very odd.
I want to say, it's anodd scene. Alan looks weird, his
hair looks weird. He's singing Hebrew, and all I can think is that
Alan doesn't know Hebrew. Maybe Thensuddenly we see Charlie sitting at the table

(09:13):
and Alan and we all in theaudience know together that something is terribly wrong.
It quickly cuts back to Sam withhis hands around Alan's throat, choking
him. Candice is screaming no inthe background, but Sam doesn't stop and

(09:33):
he kills Alan. It's it's shocking. He unchains him, he carries his
body to the cellar, puts himin the grave. I think we all
keep waiting for Alan to wake upand fight back, but he doesn't.
He's really dead. And when Sampicks up the tube and puts it on

(09:56):
the table. He finds the padthat Alan was writing on. It's really
it's a really dark scene, thewhole thing. It cuts them to Shoshana
entering her dad's house to collect themail. In the mail is a letter
from Sam telling them that he leftthe body of their father in a place

(10:18):
where they could find it so hecould be buried. He included what we
learn is a letter from her fatherto her and Ezra. In this letter,
Alan tells him how much he lovedthem, urges them to not dwell
on his death or their conflicts.He takes most of the blame for the

(10:39):
conflict between Ezra and his mother andhimself. He tells Ezra he is truly
a wonderful person. And then wesee again Alan say a little machugunar maybe,
and now we know what he wasreferring to when we saw that earlier.
There's a lot of crying by Shoshanaand Ezra, the two of them

(11:01):
sobbing basically at learning the truth abouttheir father and reading his last words.
We then see Sam come home toan empty basement. He imagines himself talking
to Alan in a rather Charlie momentbecause Alan is dead and telling him that
he's cured and he's not going tokill again. Alan tells him, we

(11:26):
both know that's true. That's nottrue. Sam then takes the chain and
places it around his own ankle locksit, calls his mother down to take
the key. It's kind of atouching moment. I think I'd be more
touched if I wasn't so mad atSam. And then we see Ezrael attending

(11:48):
a therapy session, clearly processing hisrelationship with his dad and what happened to
him at the end, talking aboutthe book, talking about how worried he
is about his whole family, doesn'tsay much about himself, and finally the
therapist saysed to him, well let'shear about you, and the last word
spoken is Ezra saying I. Andthen it cuts to black and that's the

(12:15):
end of the patient ahe how'd youfeel about that ending? Lindsey, Oh
God, I feel very conflicted.I feel very very conflicted. I mean,
like, you know, the deathof Alan, like I I wonder

(12:37):
if I would feel differently if wehadn't done this podcast along with this show,
because I think back to the firstpeople we had on this show.
Those therapists in the beginning, theyall said, you can't cure Sam,
you can't fix it. And therewas something about the way they said those

(13:01):
things in the beginning that made itfeel inevitable that at the end of this
Sam what I mean, that Samwas going to kill Alan Ultimately, that
there wasn't any other way out ofthis. Yea. And yet we spent
all of these episodes getting to knowthese people and getting to know Alan and

(13:22):
really really rooting for him, youknow. And I have to say,
I'm not a professional therapist, soI can't really give a recommendation to this,
but in terms of what I understandhow therapists operate, Alan deserves an
a plus. In terms of howhe dealt with everyone on this entire thing.

(13:43):
He was always honest and supportive toboth Sam and his mother, and
even when he was brutally truthful inthat last episode, he you definitely felt
like it did not come from aplace of spite or come from a place
of like anger. It came froma place of I'm saying these things to

(14:07):
help you, and you felt like, even to the last moment, he
was trying to help people, andso to see him die after all,
that is so hard. And Iwas looking this morning at the fan reaction,
the early fan reaction online, andof course people are furious at Sam.

(14:28):
They're so upset because you know,it's not the outcome they wanted.
But at the same time, Ijust don't think it could have ended any
other way. I just don't knowhow. I have said from the very
beginning that Sam will never let Alango. He can't. He can't let
him go because of fear of beingcaught. He can't let him go because

(14:54):
I mean, he just couldn't.And as much as I rooted for the
cavalry to come, yeah, youknow, like mister Buchella was going to
figure it out and call the police, or see the signs and call the
police, or Ezra was going tosomeone was going to look at his you
know, appointment book, or Irooted for all of those things to happen.
But why busting right In my heartof hearts, I knew that Sam

(15:22):
had to kill Alan, and thatAlan was not going to be able to
kill Sam. And the moment withCandice, you know, was probably as
much as he could muster, right, Yeah, And I want to say
that I felt a little mad atAlan because he forced the moment. It
was do or die. You know, he did not want to live in

(15:43):
the basement anymore, and so hedemonstrated to us in that episode that he
was willing to get himself killed toget out. Yeah. No, it's
like it's this, you let meout or you kill me. That's it.
I'm not going to live like apet. Yeah. Um, but
I was still heartbroken when it happenedand really deflated. I felt really deflated

(16:11):
when when Alan didn't sit up inthe in the grave that he dug.
He dug his own grave. Lindsey, I know, it's terrible. It's
terrible, and yeah, I haveto say I feel I felt so many
conflicting emotions in that moment of like, well, I knew this was coming,
and yet I'm so upset that it'shere. The other revelation of this

(16:37):
episode for me was the dad whoa Going back to episode nine, I
didn't I wasn't even aware that hewas still alive number one, and so
that was like, wait, he'sstill here, and and now we find
out he's living in the same town. We go to actually to the dad's
house, which apparently is very accessible. We could have been there the whole

(17:00):
time. We walk in. Dadimmediately offers to make lunch. And then
you look around at Dad's house andlike, Dad's got a grandfather clock and
fairly family heirlooms, and he's notsome troll living in a cave, you
know, with like you know,filled with hatred. You just see this

(17:22):
slightly beaten up older man in livingin not a bad place, not a
bad existence, and you're just like, yeah, I had so many questions
of like, this is the monster, and why didn't we come here before?
Why didn't we take care of ourproblems then? And um, I

(17:45):
just got I wanted to know somuch more about his dad. I know,
we need to talk to somebody aboutthe dad, because I think that
he was so underwhelming, yeah,which which really gave of a different perspective.
Like I was expecting him to besome you know, drunk, angry,

(18:06):
violent person, and he was justlike he was just a bum.
He wasn't even really a bum,you know, he was just kind of
underwhelming. And that's not to saythat he wasn't an awful, awful,
brutal person when he lived with them, So I'm not I'm not underestimating that
at all, but in that moment, and I think that's part of even

(18:30):
what made I mean, Sam probablywould have tried to kill him anyway,
but it was just like, yeah, hey, I'm sorry, I'm sorry
man. You know, it wasso such a half hearted apology and um,
but yeah, that was really thatwas really fascinating, And it would
be nice to talk to someone about, you know, um, the casting

(18:52):
choice and all the thought that wentbehind that. Yeah. Yeah, I
mean I need to talk to someoneabout the show. And I need a
therapist after I you know why havinga show about a therapist, I feel
like to talk through some of theseissues for sure, there's so much to
figure out. And then also thepart where Alan took Candice hostage was also

(19:21):
very shocking to me, Like youcould the part where where they were the
whole shows sort of set up yourexpectation that at some point Alan was going
to use the foot cream on Sam, that he was going to be violent
towards Sam, and I, asa fellow human being, could understand that

(19:45):
that Alan is not a violent person. He's not an angry person, but
in a moment of rage and sheerdesperation, you could see him lashing out
at Sam because Sam is his captor. Sam as the person who's kept him
chained up in a basement, andhe could take out that rage in that

(20:06):
moment that he has. But insteadhe takes Candice, who certainly is responsible
on some level for some part ofthis and that is explored in this episode.
But at the same time, you'relike, Okay, wow, he's
he has He's going to use Candiceto get out of it, and he

(20:30):
clearly, you know, he cutsinto her neck with the tube and there's
blood and it looks at least fora moment, Yeah, like Alan really
would be willing to kill Candice ifhe doesn't get what he wants. It's

(20:52):
all he had. You know,you saw him try to do one push
up that he couldn't do. Yeah, he was no way he was going
to be able to overpower Sam.And you know, you made an interesting
point about in a moment of likerage and passion, but the moment that
that Sam is sitting is kneeling nextto him in episode nine, it's just

(21:14):
like this calm moment, Alan's notprovoked. He can't he can't stir up
the energy I think to actually lashout um and so I think that he
just felt like Candice was his onlywhich was his only hope. Yeah,
I mean he had. I mean, let's face it, Alan has had

(21:34):
no exercise in weeks and has beeneating amazing boot I mean you know what
I mean, He's not quipped todo anything at this point. He can't
even write a review of the restaurantsnow, m yeah, yeah, it's
a man. I I do feellike the people that we've talked to on

(21:55):
this show who said, don't worry, the ending is satisfying. At first,
I was like, wait, thisisn't the satisfying ending. I'm not
satisfied, but I'm unsatisfied. ButI think the more distance that I get
from it, the more I'm like, well, okay, this is inevitable.

(22:17):
I suppose it does give us thetremendous relief of the children being able
to read their father's last words andrecover his body because of you know,
Sam tells him where it is.But also that last scene with Ezra talking

(22:40):
about a therapist talking with a therapist, you you have a sense of hope
that Ezra is going to be ableto move on with his life, that
he's going to be able to toto live on past this moment, which
is really what Alan specifies that hewants both of his children to do.

(23:03):
Yeah, And so as the asit went to black, right as we're
hearing about what as ours thoughts arefor the first time on this, I
took away from that of like,okay, um, the children are going
to be okay. Yeah, anduh Sam is probably going to be incarcerated

(23:27):
m and Alan is gone, butthe rest of this is going to move
forward in a positive way. Andthat's what Yeah, I felt like as
we're going to therapy was you know, him embracing his father's you know work,

(23:48):
you know. And and you mighthave noticed that the I mean,
the therapist had a very similar kindof setup right in therapy out of his
home. It was pretty you know, like New Troll. But the room
was very bright, and I kindof feel like every other scene we see
Ezra in is not all that bright. You know. I'll talk about the

(24:10):
lighting, and it was. Itwas a very bright room. And he's
going to get to talk about himselfnow. And so yeah, I agree
with you, the kids are gonnabe okay. I have no idea what's
going to happen with Sam chained upin his basement. Like, I don't
know how that's going to work.I do not want to see a season
two with that. I just needto say. Yeah. But but okay,

(24:36):
So here's what I took away fromthat, which is that the entire
episode, Alan has been saying toSam, the only way that this this
can end is that you have tobe physically restrained. And so my assumption
of this, and maybe this isincorrect, but what I took from it
was when Sam locks himself up andhands his mom the key, he's basically

(24:57):
saying to mom, Mom, I'mready to be he turned into the police
so that I can be I canbe incarcerated for life. That's what I
took from it, which was that'snot what I took from it. Oh,
would you get? Would you getthat he's going to live in the
basement and Mom gets to serve himas meals and keep him safe. That's
what I took from it. Wow, I don't know. I think he

(25:17):
was saying to my mom, Momcalled the police and locked me up.
Oh, after having gone through allof that, I don't think So okay,
all right, But I mean,why else would he lock himself up,
you know what I mean, likeall he's gonna do to be safe
to just like yeah, I don'tknow, but no, it never occurred
to me that that meant he wasgonna go to the police. But I

(25:40):
don't know. Maybe you're right,yeah, right, Yeah, Well,
I just want to do give alittle shout out to the Jay's um.
Every literally every week, we've talkedabout how we want them on the show,
and I know that they are.We got confirmation last week that they
are just too busy and cannot comeon the show. But we did hear
that they've been listening to the podcastand like our podcast, and we're just

(26:04):
thrilled to hear that. We Imean every word when I say this was
really a masterpiece and I hope everybodygets all the Emmys. It was a
little thank you so much for givingus a vehicle to do this podcast,
and we look forward to what youbring us next. Yeah, and but

(26:26):
before we go, we've still gotsome people to talk to. Yes,
we do, and we have notone, but two guests today on this
Joe, because for us, thepatient will never end. Okay, yes,
and see, why don't you tellus about our double Header today.

(26:49):
Hi everyone, we have art directorand production designer Patricio Farrell on the show
today. Patricio is known for hiswork in movies such as Gotti, Indiana,
Jones and The Them in the CrystalSkull, Dragon Ball Evolution, and
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, as wellas television shows such as Reacher and The
Haunting of Hillhouse and The Haunting byof My Manner. We are so excited

(27:12):
to happen with you today. Pleasewelcome Patricio Farrell. Hi, good morning,
Good morning morning. I just wantto say, as an aside that
The Haunting of Hillhouse is one ofmy absolute favorite shows. And when I
saw that you did the art direction, the production design for that show,

(27:34):
I was blown away. It wasone of the most beautifully acted and produced
and set shows ever. I stillthink about it and talk about it all
the time, so I just wantedto say that thank you. Yeah,
that is I still also think aboutit. It's it's It turned out to

(27:59):
be a great show. I knewfrom the beginning it was an amazing opportunity
for me as a production designer tobe able to to help conjure up that
place with Mike Fanaga and the creatorand the home team. But yeah,
it turned out great. Many fansstill today like you coming up when it

(28:22):
comes up that I worked on that, And maybe we'll talk about that another
time because today we're here to talkabout the patient. Absolutely. Can you
tell us a little bit about justwhat your responsibilities are as a production designer.
I have a feeling it has todo with sets, but I'm not

(28:44):
I'm not sure that's all of it, So I'm just curious if you could
sort of walk us through what it'slike. Yeah, it definitely has to
do with sets. As a productiondesigner, you're the head of the art
department, so there are many people. It's a big team in with other
teams that are part of their departmentas well. Like, for example,

(29:07):
the immediate team that I work withconsists of sometimes a supervising our director,
maybe several our directors, assistant ordirectors, set designers, model makers,
illustrators, and then kind of satellitedepartments. The set decorating department, props
department, construction is a huge department, so it's a whole We can be

(29:33):
in the hundreds. Really, weare the elusive team that nobody really knows.
Matter what you do with us andwho does what? But we know
it's an elaborate, intricate little systemof craft people really and what we do

(29:55):
the end of all of this isto come up with the the physical space,
the environment where the action happens.So we come up with the walls,
what textures the wall will be,what colors there will be, What
is going to be inside those walls, like what kind of carpet, what

(30:17):
kind of furniture, and then whatis going to be on the furniture,
like what kind of ashtray? Allthe way to what kind of cigarette the
talent discingture is smoking. Yeah,of course with the blessing of the director,
the showrunner, the producers, whoever, the whole rest of the team

(30:38):
is too. All the way tothat cloud lamp, right, but we
see all the way to that cloudlamp. Definitely all the way to the
cloud, yes, can you tell? Yeah, that's one of those things
that is um serendipity, coincidence ofthat, and then you never know what

(31:02):
it's going to be taking such atrip. Working with decorator Lisa Son,
who I work within the past,and so we work together trying to find
everything. What I was just pointingout of for the furniture that is going

(31:23):
to be going in. And soin this case, Lisa was coming with
all kinds of choices for the bed, the little coffee table, the chairs,
everything, and the light was definitelya very delicate item because it's something

(31:48):
that first of all, it transcendsthe our department and goes into the lighting
department. That's something that we needto work very closely with the director of
photography because there are many times thatwe have lights that just pretend to be
lighting, to be a source oflight, and they said, while there's
something else really providing that we justgive an excuse some other practical sources of

(32:15):
light, they are the actual light. So when that's the case, we
need to work very closely and seehow we can bring something that looks good,
that makes sense, but also illuminatethe way the director of photography needs
for that. So in this case, the other thing too was that it

(32:35):
had to be something that look inoffensive, that was not everything around Alan and
in this pacement, everything that heactually could reach had to be things that
were not going to be weaponized.Basically, so he couldn't have some kind
of light source with a glass orsomething that he could create, some kind

(33:00):
of element that he could attack.So we went through many different things,
and the cloud was one of thosethat we didn't know if it was going
to be too funny or too weirdor give the light source stud But we

(33:22):
tested it and worked and we allloved it. And the Jay's our fearless
showrunners, Joel Fields and Joe Wiseberg, they just loved it, and so
then we run with it. Imean, I found myself making up a
whole story about that cloud layer tobe totally honest with you, because you

(33:43):
know, I really did find anemotional connection to that one piece of furniture
on the stage, which is thatI'm assuming, just in the world of
story, that that is a lampthat was bought when Sam was a child,
and you know, it's it seemsvery much like it was bought for
um, for someone who was younger, and and then that it feels like

(34:08):
a remnant of Sam's childhood that nowliterally Alan's has had to incorporate into his
daily life. Did you have thosekinds of discussions with the Jays in terms
of what not just physically what itneeds to accomplish, but maybe also what

(34:30):
it sort of emotionally needs to accomplish. Yes, we certainly have. UM.
We did have conversations about all theemotional elements that are there and and
and you he did right on thenail in terms of UM remnants of UM,

(34:50):
the childhood and they and all thecharacters that life of what was used
that room for and how he kepton changing the hea story of that in
this case perhaps with the cloud,what I was thinking and something that we
were thinking when bringing things in hereis that he would go maybe and buy

(35:12):
baby stuff that maybe it wasn't hiscloud as a baby, but it was
something that he bought us a babystore, which that's something this kind of
stuff that you buy that a baby'snot going to hurt himself herself. So
that so that kind of we didn'tthink that it would have been his cloud,

(35:34):
but it was something that he boughtwith that in mind, and it
was kind of yeah, baby likevery clever, very Sam is always thinking
ahead exactly. And it's interesting whatyou just said because for us who do
this, we I always tried tothink in terms of the subliminal and what

(35:55):
is something that is not going tobe seen, but it's there in a
way, and it's affecting people watching. But on their hand, you never
know what is going to take eachperson. Maybe something there's a few people
that think one way, but youknow, we all see something else.
We all reflect what was going onwith us right in a way. So

(36:17):
I want to know who has thatlamp? Now? Did someone take that
lamp on from the side? Idon't know, but maybe in storage.
A lot of these things for shows, they keep them in case they come
back with another season, or sometimesthey do sales. I mean I'm in
Chicago right now. That by theway, the Patient was done fully in

(36:40):
Los Angeles, which was a realpleasure to work from from the city that
I call home despite my accent.But and in Chicago now, So if
there was a sale, because sometimesalso there is an opportunity for people,
if in the business, to goand get some good deals. I don't

(37:02):
know if if that was solder isbeing kept by the studio. Yeah,
it's a collector's item. I wouldsay it's one of the more sort of
remarkable. I mean, it's oneof the more memorable pieces of the said,
I would say for sure now nowit is. And there was some
magazine that approached me for an interview, and on one hand I was busy,

(37:22):
but then also they mentioned that themain thing they wanted to talk about
was that cloud, so it waseasy for me to say, you know
what, then, do you knowme and yourself a favor? And Cole
said decorator Lisa Sound, she's theone that brought it in, So they
don't I don't remember what magazine.It could be worse. You could be

(37:45):
James Redding, who was the sounddesigner who apparently mostly gets asked about the
urinating so you know, including byus. Yeah, I didn't ask much
of about it. I did hearit too. Yeah, let's talk about

(38:07):
the overall setup of the basement.I'm curious. I mean, so much
of the show is focused in thatbasement, and as we've already sort of
mentioned, every single detail of thebasement is super important because it's either meant
to give some sort of information aboutwhere we are, or it's meant as

(38:30):
a clue or could be a weaponor could not be a weapon. It's
like, because the show is inis largely in such an enclosed space,
every detail of that space becomes crucialin terms of how the show is going
to operate and how the characters aregoing to sort of plot their various pass

(38:52):
through the show. How did youapproach designing the basement? Did you?
I'm sure you must have had longconversations the Jays about it. What were
the things that were in your mindas you were putting it together? Well,
interesting question, and let me seein a way, states are our

(39:15):
characters in the story and in thiscase it's a even though it's not mentioned,
it's not called the basement, butif we are there so much that
if the basement fails kind of theshow would have a hard time flying with
it because we are there and itneeds to be believable. First of all,

(39:37):
if you know, people are alwayswhen we watch stuff we are agreeing
to to make a certain suspension ofbelief. But if you push it too
much, then people just turn awayor the story right that we're trying to
put together. So here I alwaysdo a lot of research and see how

(40:01):
what we're trying to put together isdone in real life. And in this
case, it was important that wehad a lot of different textures and a
lot of elements that would keep thecamera basically that we could keep on giving

(40:23):
the camera elements to grab onto thatthey would be able to look in one
way and be all this wood panelingand turn the other way and all this
glass and cinder block, and ifyou turn the other way you have different
openings. The stairs, there's afireplower, the kind of the clean up

(40:43):
for a fireplace, and then thisbrick and some windows. So there's always
something that will keep us occupied lookingat. And even the ceiling is not
a coincidence that there's a big beamthat divides this ceiling the center and on
one hand, on one side wehave kind of a little popcorn ceiling and

(41:07):
lighting kind of the almost like officelighting there. Yeah, And then on
the other side it's just a coupleof little things. And then we then
had as if there was a fixturethat some had removed so Alan couldn't reach
from the bed. So we wentthrough travel of putting something and then taking
it away because he some clearly plannedthis, so he already had the chain

(41:34):
in there. But anyway, whatI was referring to, all the elements
are part of this keeping into andthen imagining where there's a stain there,
some kind of humidity stain on theceiling, and all of these things,
they don't necessarily have to be likeI thought, how that went, that
happened, the stain that what Ibroke, But it's something that just keeps.

(42:00):
Hopefully, what we am for isthat we'll keep the audience visually interested
and within the parameters of reality.This has to be a very very very
much anchored in reality. There wasnot any kind of fantasy here, but
within that the colors, what dowe do. So it's like I said,

(42:22):
is we're building a character with thesets, and in some cases there
are main characters like this basement.Yeah, yeah, I mean, it
certainly is something. I mean,I totally see the part of trying to
make sure that the design captures theaudience's imagination and tension. And again,

(42:45):
along with the cloud lamp, Ifound myself making up a backstory of this
basement in terms of that it wasprobably a child's playroom at one point and
then has been sort of co optedor I can't tell if it had been
left in sort of disrepair, andthen Sam sort of decided to with the

(43:07):
scheme of moving Alan in there,to throw some furniture in there and make
it enough. It seems as thoughthe space what might have been disused and
then sort of repurposed for this thisjailing of Alan. Did you did you
think through that in terms of ordid you talk to it with the Jays

(43:30):
about how that how it should lookexactly? Yes, we did, we
did, and of course the Jaysbrought their input and then we bring elements
back and show different illustrations and waysthat we could go at it. But
yeah, you you know again,you're you're on it. We we like

(43:51):
to put the queues and even whatI was saying about putting something I didn't
think it in a way, it'seven if I don't know in my mind
helps my story. I have tomake up a story as I go.
That's what we are. We're storytellerswithin this whatever craft we are doing,
we are all storytellers. And inthis case there is the story of of

(44:15):
Psalms and Sam's mother that this washer safe space within this violent marriage.
This was an area where at somepoint it was her space where we should
and that's why we had some oldvideo tapes of the kind of gym at
home or workouts, workouts at homethat or more like eighties or stuff like

(44:38):
that that this video cassette and stufflike that that would have been that she
was using in that space. Andthen there's this room that again at some
point it was more just to givea little bit of mystery. If you're
looking from Aland's perspective to the stairsto the right of this there's there's this

(45:00):
big opening and it's basically a darkhole for most of the show. And
that was something that I just thoughtthat we had to read something like what
is there, what is something thatfor him to look at maybe he could
escape out of there, maybe justimagination, right, It's something that that's
why it's like silence in music.Sometimes you don't want to put everything that

(45:24):
you can see every world that couldhave been another world, another world,
paper or something. But I thoughtthat it was better just to have an
opening there, and so we puta lot of this stuff that would have
been in that basement, and somedid move away to create this safe space
for him to put Alan in.So this place was just filled with and

(45:47):
at some point they took that pingpound table out and there's a couple of
times that they're going but that's justfilled with stuff for real, and it
also worked as an open space.One of the half of the wall in
the bag was an eagerest point tocome in and out of the of the
set. Because also all of thisthat we're talking about is the look of

(46:12):
a set and the emotional side ofthis set as a character. But then
there's a mechanical side to every setwhere we need to make sure that all
walls, particularly when you're going tobe so long in a space that it
wasn't such a small basement, butit's a small space if you consider how
much of the series was shot inthere. So we have to make sure

(46:36):
that all walls are what we callwild, which means that we can just
remove them as needed and put themback. And same with the ceiling pieces.
So a lot of like this beamthat we had in the ceiling,
it separates the textures the look ofthe ceiling, but it also allows us
to lift one part of the ceilingand then bring it down again or the

(47:00):
other one bring it down, sothey can do they can bring up craning,
or they just have more space.Same with all the walls. All
the walls were hanging from chain motorsand they could move them up and down
and all the ceiling away, andso it was a very efficient set nice.

(47:21):
That's really cool. Yeah. Yeah, So one of the questions that
I have and a lot of thefans have. It was very striking in
episode nine when we first got tosee the upstairs, So the basement is
dark, it's very stuck in theseventies with browns and golds and oranges.

(47:46):
And then suddenly we see them havinglunch upstairs and they're sitting at this table
facing out and there's huge windows,and it's very bright and green. There's
plants and flowers that we assume Candicehas put around. And now in episode
ten we see this like Breakfast Knocka couple of times, which is very

(48:07):
bright. I wouldn't say quite modern, but you know, there's a really
striking difference. So can you tellus about about that? That seems like
that was a very deliberate choice.Yes. The location the house, which
that was also speaking of team members, Jordana Cronin was our location manager,

(48:30):
and she nailed it. She alreadyfrom the very beginning broad I think I
looked at maybe six or seven houses. The way it works generally is the
location manager would send me the productioncenter choices for something. Maybe I already

(48:51):
talked to her in this case andgive some ideas of like reference pictures or
some idea of which way to go. Many times the location managers have their
own, of course things. Butthis one was a house that I love
from the beginning because it was partof a suburb in real in reality,

(49:13):
but also secluded. It was deepin at the end of a cool de
sac, so it looked pretty perfectfor something like this that very ideal,
yeah, an ideal little neighborhood,but that very secluded at the same time,
almost as if it was in thecountryside, And we thought that it

(49:36):
could be converted. The way itwas, it had a garage that when
under almost like a tunnel under thehouse that basically you could lift both sides
of the garage and enter on oneside and go out the other way.
So when I saw that, Ithought that we could convert that into our

(50:00):
basement. Because one of the characteristicsthat the basement had to have was the
those big sliding glass doors, basicallysomething that he could see outside. This
relationship with the outside had to bepresent. So we converted that that garage

(50:23):
into the basement by removing both garagedoors and building what we call a plug
wall. We plugged that empty spacewith our brick wall and the glass break
and then the planter on the outsideand on the inside we would just see

(50:43):
that with the glass and on theother side we did the glass sliding doors.
So basically, on stage we hadall of that built to the proportions
of the house and mimicking some ofthe windows and the style of course,
and then on location we just broughtthe exterior and we brought in the sliding

(51:07):
doors and some of the wood thatgreen wood paneling that you see from the
front or the slide. So butthe idea was again I think and coming
from the Jays, that they wantedto separate the story from the cliches of
how serial killers live or where theycome from, and they wanted to kind

(51:29):
of bring in a little and Iknow the word banal has been used a
few times in regards to the setsand they look and that was something very
deliberate from the very beginning from theJays that they didn't want to make this
a scary place or something that wouldlook or the character some himself was in

(51:49):
a person that you if you're walkingand this guy's coming towards you, you
just keep on walking, right,You're not gonna be crossing to the other
side of the street, so thatit's very deliverate. Wow. And so
how often like in a thing likethat, when you're like, Okay,
I'm looking for a house. Ineed a house to do these things,

(52:13):
but it just so happens it's gotthis garage thing going on, Like what
is the point? And this maybe difficult to answer in a situation like
this where you're like, Okay,you know what, rather than keep looking
for another house that will be closerto what we're doing, We're just gonna
remove these garage doors, put thesenew walls in, and like make this
whole thing. Like what's the thresholdby which you usually make a decision like

(52:37):
that. It's interesting because I workedfor many years in their department, and
I started of course not as wellof course for me. So I work
with many production designers and people thatwould go and see a place, Oh,

(52:57):
this is perfect, but we'll changeeverything was so perfect about it.
So I always try to do thatextra legwork and find a place that we
can use most of it. Butit's very rarely the case that we find
such a good location in this Actuallyon this show, the sums no sorry,

(53:22):
Alan's home. That was a locationthat we did painting, and we
did we change a few things,but very very minimal. That's kind of
as good as it gets of alocation. Most times there's kind of okay,
this is the perfect environment, thisis the right style or the right

(53:44):
period, and and like you said, there's a threshold that is going to
be too much to do. Wekeep on looking and then hopefully we find
something better. If not, maybewe need to peddle back and and go
do that much work. But this, in a way, it was It's
always kind of more than you anticipate, but in a way it the house

(54:08):
lent itself very well. And I, of course, again having worked with
many people that were really good atwhat we do, I think I picked
up a couple of things and Ican stand in front of something and see
something else. That's part of thejob basically, And sometimes it takes a

(54:29):
while for people to show other peoplewhat I'm seeing. But generally speaking has
been working. My intuition or myexperience has been giving good dividends. I
would say, so, yes,thank you. I'm also wondering about my

(54:53):
friend Stephie has this question when whenAlan is with Charlie and he's in this
room right, and it changes.The room changes from you know, episode
to episode, like sometimes, youknow, I think one episode we saw
clouds in the background. One episodeit's all dark. So can you tell

(55:17):
us like what you were trying toaccomplish with or what it meant, you
know, every time that changed.Well, Charlie's office was a beautiful challenge
and a kind of breath of freshair after being in the basement and spoiler

(55:39):
alert perhaps, but I always feltthat it was interesting to create an environment
where when we first meet Charlie andI don't know that he's dead, makes

(56:00):
perfect sense. It's a beautiful office. But then it's also a place where
once you do learn that he's dead, he goes like, oh wow,
yeah, this makes sense. Itwas there was something off about that office.
It's certainly sparse, and there's allthese books and if I could,
I would have kept on going withthose walls as high as forever, so

(56:23):
you never see the end of thatbookshelf, that library in there, but
this round. So the idea wasthat this was some kind of heaven already
because he's sitting up in the sky. So it's something almost floating, and
that's why it's part of this roundnessand the wallpaper that we have on some

(56:46):
panels of this. Actually the wallpaperis interesting because it's kind of an art
novel. I don't know if thereare peacocks or egrettes, I can't remember
right now, but there's these umbirdcages, but the birkages are open and
the birds are out. So that'swhere he goes to be free, right,

(57:07):
That's where he's going there. Soit's it's that place that I was
playing with. Is this already heaven? This is somewhere else, but it's
again the kind of place that whenyou learn who he's actually talking to,
maybe you get something else out ofthat environment. Yeah, at a certain

(57:29):
point, you start to define theroom that they're in less around the circumstances
of what is in the room withthem, and much more about their spatial
relationship to one another. That they'realways sitting across the room from each other,
They're they're sitting at a certain distance, and so as the room continues

(57:52):
to evolve, you somehow know they'restill in a same space because of how
they're situated with each other. Correct, And that was that was a conscious
choice that that that sort of spatialrelationship becomes the the anchor for everything that

(58:15):
changes around it. Certainly, certainlythe position, and we moved the same
furniture, those armchairs and the coffeetable. We move that too. When
that place kind of transforms into othermore oppressive, it's like from heaven to
hell in a way. Right,Yeah, you still have that. So

(58:39):
the idea is that we are It'svery easy for the audience to understand that
this is still them talking and isstill all in his head basically. Yeah.
And what's so shocking about that isin episode ten, which I guess
we're here now, but in thatscene, we have a sequence in which
Alan is with Ezra and Ezra's extendedfamily in there, all singing songs together

(59:06):
and enjoying an evening at the table, and everything seems to be going so
great, and then all of asudden, we see Charlie sitting at that
table just like he's been sitting inthe office all along, and suddenly we're
like, wait, we're in thewrong place. When you tell me,

(59:27):
I get goosebumps. Yes, yeah, And I read the scripts. I've
worked on it, but I haven'tseen it all yet. And I often
take a time. Sometimes I don'twatch things I worked on for for a
long time. But so yeah,I get the goosebumps when you're saying that,
because you know something is okay,if this is maybe not that happy

(59:52):
right now, Patriccio, I reallyhope you watch it soon because it's really
a masterpiece. You know, um, the acting, the writing, um,
and you know, the sets arejust beautiful, the tone and the
emotion that gets set in in eachand every room you know, from you

(01:00:14):
know, um, the basement tothe upstairs, to Charlie's office to Ezra's
house, you know, um andAllen's house. It's really it's it's a
beautiful thing that you know you've created, and you know, I hope you'll
watch it soon because you know,yeah, yeah, I watched the last
episode twice already since midnight last night. So wow. Yeah, it's certainly

(01:00:39):
some project that I'm extremely proud of. I'm I'm a huge fan of the
Americans and the way the Jay's workand how they dive into characters and and
they they are so generous with theway they work. Um. We asked
the crew and then just accepting ideasor considering and then playing and then there,

(01:01:06):
Yeah, I was this This teamwas amazing. The person that called
me Chris Long, who was thedirector and producer and had worked also with
the Jayson The Americans. I happenedto work with with Chris on another project
and then stall of one of thedirectors of photography here. So when when

(01:01:28):
I got the call, I wasso amazed. I didn't know where I
was going, what we were doing. But Chris called me in the middle
of the night. I said,I keep calling me from Spain, and
I thought we were going somewhere likethat. And I was already telling my
son while I was taking him toschool, like, well, I was
trying to get a job in LosAngeles, but if Chris calls, I

(01:01:52):
gotta go and keep going from Spain. So I maybe having to go to
Spain. I oh, well,I understand. And then the next day's
like, no, I'm in Englandnow, oh no, no, but
the job is in Los Angeles.Okay, that's so amazing. Whatever whatever
it was, I was gonna go. And and then yeah, just with
this team from from my best showsI've seen on TV, The Americans,

(01:02:15):
this one is definitely an honor tohave Yeah, I've been able to work
with and and to dive into somethingthat it seems small in some ways because
it is so intimate. But um, it was interesting. I was just
coming the show before that. Iwas entrusted to design, to choose the

(01:02:37):
side and build a whole town.In some ways, it's once you dive
into it, it's a universe.It doesn't matter. I mean maybe you
need more help, right, there'smore people in more inevitably, but but
in my mind, they all takeall my mind. There it is.

(01:02:58):
That's great. Well, we knowyou're a super busy man. You're working
on a new show now, andit sounds like you've probably got to get
back to work on your on yourjob that you're working with. We are
so grateful to you for joining ustoday and and like Stacy said, congratulations,
it's it's just an absolutely beautiful showand your work has made such an

(01:03:22):
incredible impact in both you know,um you know, visceral and yet subliminal
ways and uh and I you know, we congratulate you on it, and
thank you so much for being withus. Yes, thank you. Yeah,
well you just said this what weall aspire. So it's great to
hit it every once in a while. But here, yeah, with the

(01:03:43):
team, the team that that calledme to do this. Yeah, I
had already apprehended this fantastic thank you, thank you all right for your interest.
Well that was really a treat.Yeah, here to hear all that
stuff. I learned so much abouthow sets are made, you know,

(01:04:04):
and created. And I've loved hisline that, oh, this is perfect,
but we will change everything. Welcometo show business. Yeah, that
is definitely how it works. Yeah, you know, I have to say
the thing I was most struck by. Okay, so I work every day

(01:04:27):
with set designers, Like that's ajob I'm intimately familiar with on some level.
But the part that always just sortof blows my mind is the part
which is like it needs to looka certain way, it's got to satisfy
a certain story arc, it's gotto hopefully carry some type of emotional impact,
and on top of that, italso in this case needs to be

(01:04:50):
able to be totally modular, sothat if the camera needs to sneak in
and take a shot, they needto be able to lift a wall out
and do that as well. Likethe level of multidimensional thinking that is involved
in that is so unbelievable. Yeah, I love the term for it,
wild walls. Yeah, you knowthat these things can be moved around,

(01:05:13):
and I hadn't considered that. Inever once thought, where are the cameras
right now? Because they must behuge? And the crew, right,
remember they told us about the crewthat was there in that space. You
don't you don't ever think about that, you know, you just think it's
the small, little, cramped room. So no, it's true. And
I mean, I guess that's thegoal of any of any good story is

(01:05:38):
to get you lost in the storyso that you never think about how it's
being told. But yeah, thisprocess of speaking to all of these different
artists who have helped make this storyhas been so incredibly illuminating to learn all
of the thought and care that goesinto putting a production together. It's really

(01:06:00):
exciting. Absolutely. I love thathe said that, you know, the
let's see, I'm trying to findit in the notes that I took,
that the basement is its own character. Yeah, and what an evil character
that basement was, right, Yeah. Yeah, but you know though that

(01:06:23):
cloud lamp. I think the thingthe informations we learned about that is like
the more I just I feel likeI'm going to carry that cloud lamp with
me for a long time in termsof what it represented in that darkness,
you know. Any Way, Yeah, I want to tell you that I
have a friend and her name isAlex dear Finko. I don't know if

(01:06:45):
she'll listen to the podcast or not, but she grew up in New York
City and her apartment that you know, she lived with her family was often
used in films, and she rememberedthat they would come in and you know,
they got to like stay in ahotel for however long the shoot was.
They would completely redo their apartments tosuit their needs and then they would

(01:07:09):
put everything back. And so herapartment was used in the movie Basic Instinct.
Oh wow. And in the beginning, I don't know if you remember
the beginning of the movie, they'repanning down this long hall and there's this
all this like evil music in thebackground. This was where Michael Douglas lived
with his family. And after that, some years after that movie came out,

(01:07:30):
I met Alex in grad school.I went and stayed at her house
and I walked in and took alook down that hallway and was immediately transformed
back to that movie. You know, that foreboding feeling you had down Hallway.
So it's powerful. These you know, the Hallway was a character basically,
but these things are really powerful.Yeah, And you know what,

(01:07:54):
It's fascinating how people can get connectedto something like that, the visceral connection
that people make. You know.I'm currently in New York City and I
walk every day to work and Iwalk in the West Village and I've been
walking down this same street for probablytwo weeks now, and every day I

(01:08:16):
walk down the street and I seea large crowd of people standing outside of
a building and they're all looking up. And the first time I walk by
that, I thought, is someonegoing to jump? What am I looking
for? You know what? Imean, what's happening up there? Right?
But nothing happened. And I wouldwalk by, and every day I
would walk by, and there'd bea crowd of people standing outside of this

(01:08:38):
building looking up every day. Andfinally, about the six or seventh day
of doing this, I finally realizedthat they are looking and taking pictures of
the exterior of the apartment that ison Friends, the sitcom television, So
that one exterior like that when theywould do that and shot of the outside

(01:09:00):
of it, which I'm sure theydid maybe one day. Yeah, like
took the ideal shot of that andthat was it. Even the show has
been off the air for a longtime, people want to just come and
experience looking at that building because ofthe connection that they have to that show.
And it is kind of amazing howpeople can just just even the outside

(01:09:26):
of the building means something to them. Hey, I walked the stairs in
Georgetown from The Exorcist, those creepy, creepy stairs, and boy, just
and I made a point like Iwalked for miles to get to those stairs
at nights, you know, soI could have that experience. So for
sure, those things are really powerful. It's so it's so fascinating to you

(01:09:51):
know, to to think about toput yourself in the mind of someone who
is going to create through environment,you know, the idea of like I'm
gonna I'm going to create a thousanddetails that's going to tell a story.

(01:10:11):
And no, and you know,he was saying, like we think all
the way down to the ashtray,all the way down to the cigarette that's
in the astray, things that probablyyou and I in our normal lives.
We don't spend all of our timegoing, oh, I wonder what cigarettes
in that astray? You know whatI mean? But for sure, but
those that level of detail is sointeresting in terms of what makes a difference

(01:10:33):
and what tells a story. Sothe last thing you said, one of
the last things you said in thatinterview, was what a treat that's been.
Yeah, interview all of the variousmembers of the crew who have worked
on the show. It's been sorich and informative and fascinating to me.
And we have a special treat foryou because we have one more person coming

(01:10:58):
on today in this episode to tellus about the film editing. So lindsay
you will tell us about who's ournext guest today in Psychoanalyzing the Patient?
All right, Amanda Polock is withus today. Amanda is the film editor

(01:11:19):
of The Patient. Her television creditsinclude The Center, The Good Fight,
Smash, Filthy rich Skins in Treatment, and all six seasons of the critically
acclaimed FX series The Americans. Infeature films, Amanda's credits include Gosford Park,
Twelve Monkeys, The Devil Wears Pradactand Meet Joe Black And Amanda also
earned credit as additional music editor onThe Devil Wears Pradact after finding and editing

(01:11:44):
most of its songs and score,which is pretty cool. We are super
excited to have her with us today. Please welcome Amanda to the show.
Hi. Thanks, thanks for havingme. It's great to be here.
Hi, Amanda, so excited tohave you here today. Yes,
thank you. That was quite alist. A lot of my favorite shows

(01:12:05):
in that list, and a lotof people that we've interviewed also worked on
The Americans. So this is really, you know, I would say,
the next great thing and we're lookingforward to the next great thing after that
that the Jays do with all oftheir favorite people. Yes, they're they're

(01:12:28):
very They brought a lot of usback from the Americans, which was great
and just a correction. On theDevil Wares product, I edited much of
the temp score, but not mostof it, not most of the songs
and time score. We also hada music editor. I was an assistant
editor on a lot of those films. But you know, got to work
with some amazing editors and directors andjust learned and learned and learned. That

(01:12:50):
is so great. Yeah, Imight cut a bunch of stuff along the
way. I'm a composer myself,and I have to tell you I'm greatly
indebted to music editors everywhere in termsof keeping me honest, So thank you
in advance for that. I wantedto ask about your relationship with the Jay's
just to start off. So Iwas wondering if you could sort of just

(01:13:15):
talk through like the timeline of howyour job sort of works, and in
particular, what I'm talking about islike, Okay, so we know there's
a script, all of it getsfilmed by many different cameras, there's a
ton of footage, and then ultimatelyit has to be assembled and put together
to be made into a television show. What's your involvement in terms of like

(01:13:43):
when do you begin? Are youin on story meetings? Do you talk
to them about how the story isgoing to unfold? Or is it more
like they just show up in theediting bay and they go, well,
here's what we got, let's putit together. Well, they they bring
us the really first on what arecalled tone meetings, when we get the

(01:14:04):
scripts ahead of these tone meetings toread. But then these tone meetings are
usually last anywhere from one to fourhours at per episode, and so they'll
bring the editor of the episode onwith the director, the DP, the
writers, a bunch a few otheryou know, sort of key people,

(01:14:25):
and they'll go over scene by seeingthe tone of each scene. And it's
actually it's like a brilliant lesson inwriting and filmmaking because they speak actually to
the director about their intention of thescene, because they're not always going to
be on the set when the directorshoots, so we hear the intention of

(01:14:48):
each scene, the hope for thecharacters, story or tone, some of
what's coming. But honestly, wedon't always know what's coming until we get
the next script. So that's reallyhelpful to the editor ifase, when we
get dailies we start, we've heardkind of what their hope is of the
scene, and we, with thefootage and the script in front of us,

(01:15:12):
try to make that happen as bestwe can using the footage that we
have in front of us. Itdoesn't always hit all the marks, and
of course the jay's hope. Everythingis relayed to the director, but you
know, things happen on the set, Things get blocked and decided for various
reasons, and we start working assoon as they start shooting. So we'll

(01:15:32):
get yesterday's dailies today and my assistantpreps it and puts them into scene bins.
They might have shot three scenes thatday or a piece of one scene
that day, and they'll organize itand give it to me in a scene
bin with grouped clips ab camera,and then I'll take the script and start

(01:15:55):
to look at the footage, lookat the script and cut some thing together.
And I do that every day ofthe shoot, and then a few
more days I have with my assistantto put sound and music and just make
it feel like the editor's cut wewant to present. And then I present
an editor's cut to the director firstbefore the ja see it, and then

(01:16:17):
the director gets a few days withme to work and then we present that
to the Jays As to Chris,because I think one of the things that
I've learned working in television that Ithat I found very surprising at first,
is that you I think one thinksof making a movie, for example,

(01:16:39):
and in that process, generally theway people think of it is a screenwriter
writes a script. They that scriptis handed off to the director, and
then the director is basically in chargefrom that point forward in terms of making
creative decisions about how the movie's goingto be guided forward. But in television

(01:17:00):
it's different, right, because youhave the creators are generally also the screenwriters,
and so exactly they write that script, they hand it off to a
director, but then it kind ofgoes back to the writers again in terms
of guiding it through to its finalprocess. Exactly the showrunners. I mean,

(01:17:21):
we call Joe and Joe all theshowrunners, and they basically oversee all
the aspects of it, the casting, everything, and it's their vision really
that we're trying to make happen muchmore than the director. Help gives the
editor there is very helpful, especiallyin certain scenes that are complicated of why

(01:17:42):
they shot a certain why, whattheir intention was. But oftentimes they know
they're not going to be there forvery long unless they're you know, like
Chris long As an executive producer who'sa director as well. He's usually doing
the first couple, on the lastcouple, and he's he's on board with
us for the whole whole thing,so he sort of walks a bunch of

(01:18:04):
different shoes, but generally, yes, it goes back to the showrunners and
then Our longest set of notes isusually with the showrunners, with Joe and
Joel and Chris as well, beforewe send it to the network. And
when we send it to the network, it's really had a hardcore pass from
them with us with the editor tomake it what they hope it to be

(01:18:29):
before we ship it to the network. And so when you're making your version
of that edit, right, so, like you you've got the footage and
then you make that first pass,how how are you making decisions? Is
it based on what the script says? Is it based on what you got
of the shots? And you're like, oh, this looks the coolest or

(01:18:49):
this seems the coolest, Like what'sthe what's the way you determine your initial
cut before it gets to the jaysand they then sort of improved the bone
it's I mean, that's a greatquestion. It's sort of both. I
mean, I read the script,but then the footage is what the footage
is, and the performances are whatthey are, and the way it's been

(01:19:13):
shot it's sometimes pretty, it's veryinstinctual. Basically, it's incredibly instinctual.
It's like, oh, this feelslike the first shot, this feels I
love this take, I'm going tokeep going to this take. I make
notes on moments that I like indifferent parts of the take of people,
like one take might be great foreverything, but then there's a couple of

(01:19:36):
lines I'm not in love with,So I make a note of where I
like a take for a certain whatthey said. And it's very instinctual.
And you know, there's a lotof ways to cut a scene, so
it's kind of like, I dowhat I like, I do what feels
good, and I usually cut itwith no music, and then I cut

(01:19:57):
individual scenes. And when I haveall the scene are most of the scenes,
I string it together, which isreally exciting, and then I start
to shape it because those transitions needwork often, and you know a good
director is going to think about thetransitions. Chris Long is wonderful with his
transitions. He really does thinks aboutit and plans it, and of course

(01:20:23):
then you have to restructure the wholething and you have to make that work,
but or often sometimes you have tolater in the process. But and
then I watched the whole thing andshape it, and it's very instinctual where
it feels like it wants music andscore. I mean, I just sort
of go, Okay, this feelslike an emotional moment that we need to
support with score. So we useda lot of Nate Bars. I know

(01:20:46):
you had Nate on. We hada bunch of his scores from other shows
and the Americans. The American scoresdidn't really work because they were so different
to what the tone of this was. But I present it as much as
I can as a complete cut thatI feel excited about from start, with

(01:21:09):
a logo at the beginning and youknow, a little a little chiron that
says end credits at the end,so that it feels like a full meal
as much as it can feel.So that's what I try to present to
them, and then I start doingwhat everybody else wants with it, because
that's you know, where the hands. So I really want to ask you

(01:21:34):
about episode ten because I was reallywowed by that, and I have to
admit that prior to even making thispodcast, I didn't think much about editing.
I just watched a show, right, and now I'm thinking about all
these different things. So I've reallyI've learned so much doing the podcast.
But the editing an episode ten,now that I'm an expert on that,

(01:21:58):
I have to say, was justbrilliant because it's not just like from start
to finish you're in the same roomand the same time frame and everything is
just happening linearly. That's not atall what episode ten was. You had
so many different things going on togetherthat you put together in this certain order,
and you know, with that littletwist at the end. Also,

(01:22:21):
so how do you I don't evenI have ten questions about it all at
once, but how do you?How do you do that? Like?
Was that always the plan to haveus kind of guessing all the way along
and to jump back and forth intime and then to give us that kind

(01:22:42):
of I won't quite call it adream sequence, but that sequence at the
end. I mean, they've alreadygot out in the spoilers, so feel
free to say whatever you want,but yeah, how do you envision that?
Well? Episode ten was a beautifullywritten script. The Jays are incredible
writers, and we were all waitingthe bated breath. We didn't know,

(01:23:05):
and we got the script and thepost. There's a bunch of us in
post and we were just blown awayand I couldn't quite believe it. Actually,
it was incredible, but a lotof that was scripted. Honestly,
there was very little restructuring in episodeten that was scripted a lot. There

(01:23:25):
was a lot of restructuring in theearlier episodes because we just the network wanted
us to get going a bit faster, so we kind of earned more of
a slow burn once we hit themid the midpoint of the season, a
lot of the flashbacks were restructured andrethought, and some of the setup of

(01:23:46):
Alan and who he was was restructuredand rethought in the flashbacks and how the
stories were told, and that wasfascinating to watch the Jays come up with
that process and Chris and discussing itand figuring it out. But ten and
I co edited ten with Kate Sandford, who's a brilliant editor that I was
very excited to work with, andwe kind of split the episode in half,

(01:24:10):
like she took the front half,I took the back half. But
then we would give each other notes. But honestly, it's very loyal to
the script, and we maybe tighteneda few things up here and there to
get things going a little bit faster. But because I find the first cut
tends to be loose, a bitflabby, it feels great individually seen in

(01:24:34):
the individual scenes, and then youstick it together and it feels like it
needs to go a bit faster.But some of the work we often do
with the chase is making things breatheeven more. And I know that you
know, James your the sound editor, talked about that opening up emotional moments,

(01:24:55):
making that stare even longer so thatit just feels deadly. They could
kill you with this look. Andthat's a very exciting and interesting and challenging
thing to do because there's a fineline between tension and like too long and
just right. So but that scriptwas pretty much what they shot what Chris

(01:25:17):
Long did a beautiful job directing it. That's really cool. I actually want
to ask a question about the editingstyle because I've as I've watched more films,
I've become more aware that there aredifferent styles of editing. I guess
you know where there's like a millioncuts happening all the time versus something where

(01:25:41):
where are those things where you're ableto linger on a moment. It seems
like it takes a real discipline todo that and to also know when it's
too long or too short or whateverthat is in the patient. There is
a recurring sort of editing theme thatI observed that is about things that are

(01:26:03):
happening outside of the frame of whatwe see. That we're either hearing noises
from above or in another room,or cars coming and in Sometimes in another
version of this television show, we'dbe looking at the video of that thing

(01:26:25):
that we can't see happening, butinstead the camera stays on, usually on
Steve Carrell. But you know,it's it seems very disciplined that you're not
going to get all of the answersabout what's happening by just what's looking by
just looking at what's in the inthe video. Yeah, And I was

(01:26:45):
just wondering, like, did youin the day Jay's Evert discussed that the
idea of like not giving away allthe answers and you know, really making
the audience sort of work at tryingto understand what's happening and maybe not even
be able to figure out what's happeningright away that it sort of it takes

(01:27:08):
them a minute or two to understandwhat's happening outside of the frame. I
think that I think they do thatthere were so much left unknown. I
mean, I had people watching itwho up to episode eight and nine,
we're just wondering how so many endswe're going to get wrapped up, And

(01:27:29):
they did it so beautifully in episodeten, and they kind of give you
a lot of endings in episode tenbecause there are so many things unknown.
Steve Girl's performance is so beautiful andactually it was very played, very low
key and cutting the individual scenes sometimesit was you know, there was a
wonder if there was enough anxiety outwardanxiety in his performance, but the way

(01:27:56):
it was like he knew so beautifullyhow to perform it as a whole,
because when you put it together,his kind of he's always trying to keep
Sam from knowing what's going on,but he's also exploring internally what's going on
with him, and it's just sucha perfectly keyed performance. To me,
that does give you that sense oflike what's going on, what's going on

(01:28:20):
with him and the exploration and thenas you've also talked about with one of
your interviewees, bringing Charlie and tohelp us understand the internal journey of Valen
that wasn't just in a flashback,you know, but how he's exploring it.

(01:28:40):
I think that Jay's treat the audiencevery smartly, and they don't give
away too much and they allow usto not quite understand, and not because
they're giving us so much information,but because we're having to sit with silences
and so little information in a way. But these episodes are packed and with

(01:29:03):
a lot of story, even thoughthey're very very simple in a lot of
ways, because we're not jumping allover the place and showing you everything.
It's like we get shown just enoughto know what's going on, like say,
I'm out in his world. Wasthe idea always to have them be
twenty minute episodes, Well, thepilot was longer, and it got shorter,

(01:29:28):
and it got faster, and itgot restructured to be action happened a
little bit faster, so that wasI think going to be a bit longer.
But for the most part they weresupposed to be in the thirty minute
marked so anywhere from twenty to well, the last episodes forty five minutes,

(01:29:50):
yes, and they were their reallyeffects was amazing on the Americans about allowing
us to be whatever time worked,and sometimes with especially with network, you
just have to kill yourself getting somethingdown to forty two minutes and thirty seconds,
even though it feels organically perfect atforty six fifty and Effects was very

(01:30:15):
generous with us on the Americans.We never had to do that. We
could be long, we could beshort. And Affects Hulu on this too,
they were they were very flexible onthat, which is great. So
you get to kind of make theshow that feels right. Yeah. Yeah,
I was gonna say. I frequentlyhear of television shows where it's long
and they got to figure out waysto get out it's I don't hear as

(01:30:38):
many stories of oh, the show'stoo short. We didn't we don't have
enough material or we need But Iwould say in looking at the fan base
of The Patient, probably the twomost controversial things in the fan base is
the ending of episode ten and thenalso how long the episodes are, which

(01:31:02):
some people really appreciated and it madeother people absolutely insane. And I'm when
you're when you're making a show thatyou say, Okay, it's gonna be
about a half hour and then it'slike it's twenty two minutes. And we
heard from a number of people workingon the show, actors and creatives who

(01:31:27):
worked on it that they were likeactually this scene was supposed to be in
this episode and it got moved overhere to this episode, and this thing
happened this, and you know,things were constantly moving around. Was there
ever a moment when you were turningin a twenty two minute episode and being
like, is this okay? Arewe allowed to are we allowed to have
a twenty two minute episode? Isare people gonna people going to ask us

(01:31:49):
to make more show? I mean, the thing is so editors, you
know, we get to learn alot of secrets what happens in the cutting
of it. I'm not you know, it was it was tough because we
had we had longer episodes, andthen there was discussion about, you know,
wanting some of these things to happenfaster, and we weren't always in

(01:32:13):
agreement about how what what needed tohappen, so you have to compromise.
You know, it's a collaborative mediumand so and yeah, so that was
that was hard. And it wasreally in the earlier episodes that that were
shorter and where things happened more andwe lost more scenes and restructured them.

(01:32:35):
Um, so you know, itwas difficult. And actually I was talking
to Kate Sandford about this and thesort of recutting that was happening, particularly
in the earlier episodes, And shepointed out that in the older days,
you would have a pilot season whereyou would make one pilot and spend a

(01:32:57):
half a year on that, andthen it might get for a series,
and by then you figured out thetone, you figured out the characters.
A character might not work, soyou might recast that to redo the to
do the whole series. And nowthese series get greenlet ten episodes, and
you're figuring out the tone and aswell as shooting the whole season and getting

(01:33:19):
it. You know, then you'redone shooting and you're sort of left going,
Okay, we've got to figure outwhat this is while we shoot the
entire run. So it's really it'squite a journey to figure out what this
show is. So I think alsothe fact that they had to wait a
week drove people crazy. If ithad maybe dropped in a big chunk,

(01:33:45):
people could have binged it. Ingeneral, audiences are pretty impatient about waiting
a week now, especially for somethingthat's only a half hour. But I
think the pilot was the only onethat was twenty minutes. The rest were
closer to a half hour or ifnot, maybe even a little bit more.
I think, I'm sure there's someonewho timed every episode about it,

(01:34:09):
right, But I knew people wouldbe excited that we give them that we
were going to give them a fortyfive minute finale. Yeah, yeah,
and it was. We had Ihad a few people over because I just
wanted to see the reaction because youdo all this work and then you're sort
of alone and everyone's alone watching itat home. So we had a few

(01:34:30):
people over and had a good timekind of watching the the horror Yes,
sobbing and that beautiful letter writing sequencewhich I that that made me cry in
the script with Alan writing that letterand then Shoshana as we're reading it and
the cut back and forth, andI was just I was so excited to
get that sequence and to cut thatsequence, and everyone just did such a

(01:34:54):
beautiful job, and it was Imean, it made me cry when I
read the script. It was soamazing. And Amanda the moment when he's
writing the letter and he makes thatcomment maybe a little miss Sugunu and you
don't know what he's talking about untilthe end, you know. And I
still had some questions about I thinkhe was referring to Ezra, but yeah,

(01:35:18):
just like leaving us in waiting likethat was you know really, I
mean, the whole thing was soemotional. Did you have any idea of
what that note was about when hewas writing it or was it just like
something he because he takes notes allthe time, so it could have just
been any note. But it wassort of set up as this big he
comes out of this Charlie scene,he gets out of bed, the music

(01:35:41):
starts, and he does as weuse these long dissolves to help have show
time passing and the length of writingthe note, which is always interesting,
like you want to make something feellong, but you can't actually play it
as long as it would be orpeople would turn the TV off. So
those nice long dissolves, I think, and those beautiful angles with the camera

(01:36:02):
coming around the bed and some clothesups helped him make it feel like it's
a long moment. But did youhave any idea what the note might be?
I think that I'm looking to seeif I took a note on that,
But oh what I have here?Alan takes the note, Patton starts
writing. We don't see what he'swriting at first it's somewhat lengthy, you

(01:36:28):
know, so maybe, but Idon't know that. I look, I
thought from the beginning that Alan wasn'tgoing to get out of there alive,
which doesn't mean that I wasn't disappointedwhen it happened. But I don't know
that we knew, did you know, lindsay what he was writing. I

(01:36:48):
didn't know. And I have tosay the Mi sugun A line in particular
really resonated with me because it feltlike this review y'all, you know,
it felt like this beautiful, likefinally we were hearing Alan's emotional voice in
its truest form, and the wayit was put together, editing the music,

(01:37:13):
all of it made it feel.And then also the performances of the
actors in terms of reading it andreceiving that information. I mean like,
even though I was still really upsetthat Alan had died, I was a
wreck listening to that letter because itwas so beautiful and also it was it

(01:37:39):
felt very authentic and heartfelt, andit really affected me a lot, and
I did not I didn't know,Like I will say, I wasn't prepared
to have that experience after watching himbe murdered. I was not ready for
I don't think I was like,oh great, and now here's where I
love to plug in my heartstrings.But you totally got yeah, yeah,

(01:38:00):
yeah, I know. It's sucha shock when he gets and the way
you come out, that beautiful dinnerscene, so you think, oh,
he's made it and it was adream when he wakes up and then boom,
and actually I drew I had cutthat. So that Charlie moment at
the end where he sees Charlie atthe table, we went back and forth
a couple of times, and thatwas one that was sort of the only

(01:38:20):
thing that really changed in the cut. We went quicker from Alan's face to
boom that strangle on the side ofAlan, and it is shocking and cutting
that actually because I kind of livedwith Steve Carrill, you know, with
Alan, with his character for Icut five of these episodes, so it

(01:38:43):
was sort of like you just learnedto I have to go all in to
these characters into this world and youkind of love them, you know.
And then so I really was disturbedwatching these dailies, cutting these dailies,
and he was so good at beingdead. It was so horrifying the way
Chris shot it. So I've I'veworked on a lot of pretty violent stuff.

(01:39:06):
The Americans had a lot of difficultscenes too, But that that that
murder was pretty pretty tough and prettydisturbing and hard to be with, which
you have to be as an editor. I have to stay with it until
it feels real. Yeah. Well, you know, the fans wanted a
twist. I don't know that thiswas the twist that they wanted, but

(01:39:27):
but the twist it. So Iwant to say that I found that that,
like dinner scene, there was somethingabout it that felt off to me.
And I don't know if it wasplanned or not, Like everyone was
so happy, and I thought SteveCarrell's hair looked weird, um and he

(01:39:47):
looked stiff, and I kept thinking, but he does I don't think he
knows Hebrew. There's something that someonenoticed that the scene like looked a little
yellow, you know, So therewas something different about it. But you
wanted to believe right that this thathe got out and then and then you
see Charlie. So I think seeingCharlie was really essential, and it didn't

(01:40:12):
I want to say that it softenedthe blow of the next moment, but
it was like uh oh, Likeeveryone sees Charlie and they're like uh oh,
and then you cut to that.So what was so? Was it
planned that way that it would bea wonderful scene, but there was something
off about it. I mean,I think you make good points, and
there probably was some color work doneto it. I wasn't with the color

(01:40:35):
with the TP. I mean thecinematographer also was wonderful, Dan stall If.
He did such a good job withChris and making the whole thing feel
so, you know, everything sortof different, the basement in general,
and then and then this scene feelingdifferent. There was a perfection element to

(01:40:56):
this scene that made it feel itwas all too perfect. It was too
lovely. When Ezra puts his handand looks at him for that long look.
You know, it's like the lookAlan's been waiting for for this entire
show, and it just I agreewith you. It all felt too perfect
that it had to be something notright. But but yeah, I'm not

(01:41:20):
sure exactly what they did with thecolor honestly. Oh sorry, go ahead,
no, go ahead. You know, to bring up the dream that
comes before he wakes up from youknow that that dream in the gas Chamber
was interesting because and that was verymuch scripted. That whole end run was
scripted exactly as it is actually bythe Jays, but we had I put

(01:41:46):
in some weird music and gas orwhatever, and the guys were like,
is there a clesmer version of CountryRoads that we could put on there?
And I said, I don't know, Well let me you know, let
me let me find out, letme look. And so I went to
our music supervisor, Amanda Thomas andher team and I said, Okay,

(01:42:11):
here's the request, and they cameback with a Klasma version of Country Roads
and so I listened to it.It was all a bit too happy and
fast. So I slowed it downand played it in reverse, which another
one of our editors did in aprevious episode, and it sounded super creepy,

(01:42:33):
and so we put that in andthat is what you're hearing as well
as Alan crying and the gas.You hear this backwards slowed down version of
Country Roads class so creepy. Yeah, it was so creepy. So what
you can do with music and soundas well as the visuals, it's all

(01:42:54):
like one one piece. Joe JoeWeissberg in particular, got super excited when
we showed him that. When Ishowed him that scene, he was he
was thrilled. That's so cool.Yeah, I love how you describe your
work as living with these characters becauseyou I think you describe an experience that

(01:43:17):
I mean, again as a composerfor film and television, that I've experienced
myself, where you will watch thesame footage the same actors over and over
again for hours on end on end, until it feels like you know these
people like you are. You're ona friendship basis with them, just because

(01:43:39):
of the amount of exposure you haveto who they are and their personalities and
the way they say things, andit starts to feel second nature. What
like when you what's a typical daylike for you in terms of editing are
you? How long do you workin a day and how how much time
are you in front of them?Well, it's weird now with the remote

(01:44:01):
world. You know, we're oftenremote or we're hybrid. We might come
in and work when the producers aredirectors are their showrunners. But I mean
it depends, it depends what thedeadline is. You know, when I'm
in dailies, I'll probably start aroundten. I'll try and i'll work to
I'll try and have a normal day, and but I often push a little

(01:44:25):
bit late if I have a mountainof stuff to get through. Dailies is
the most sort of heavy lifting partin a way, because you're by yourself.
Well, I'm looking at this footage. It's seen after seen a day
after day, and it's kind oflonely, and I'll often talk. My
assistant is sort of the person Italked to the most every day, where

(01:44:45):
I'll be like, Okay, I'vegot scene five, can you, you
know, put some put some footstepsin it or whatever, and he and
he or she will be watching thingswith me. So I've always really i
as an assistant. I was veryloose in buy editors that were sort of
the people I looked up to andthe people who helped bring me in.

(01:45:05):
And it's a wonderful relationship where youget to really learn from what they're doing,
as well as being given opportunity tocut stuff, do stuff and then
be asked to change it. SoI try to loot my assistance in like
that creatively, as well as allthe technical stuff that they have to do,

(01:45:26):
and so shout out to my assistantAlix Cockennis. She was excellent.
That is kind of the day.And then once I'm working, once the
cuts are in place and I'm workingwith the directors, it becomes a bit
more social. We'll work together allthe ever cast or zoom or one of
these things, and we'll do it. We'll go through it, and I'll
give notes and we'll talk, andthen I go and do usually do my

(01:45:48):
notes on my own, do theirnotes on my own, because they don't
want to sit around while I tryto wrangle one edit, you know,
once flice and so. But ina way it becomes it's more fun once
the things put together, once theanimals put together, because then it's a
mix of social, creative collaboration andworking on my own. But dailies is

(01:46:11):
a Dailies is intense. Plus it'sall instincts. It's all like, Okay,
I'm going to watch this four minutescene and I'm going to put and
put it together. Four minutes cantake half a day. Wow. Yeah,
I know it's kind of a butit's really exciting and it's really fun,
and it's really an honor because they'veshot, they've spent a lot of

(01:46:33):
money, and a lot of peopleand a lot of time to shoot this
vision, the script that these writershave written, and then they give it
to me and it's like, ohmy god, it's it's really I think
of it as a really a bigresponsibility. And I mean, the beautiful
thing about editing is we can keepchanging it, unlike on set, where

(01:46:57):
you have the pressure of time andyou've got to get it in the can.
So we do have the opportunity tochange it. But I do think
of it and not most people aren'tgoing to have time to look at all
the footage. It's our job tolook at the footage, and most people
aren't going to have that time,even the directors and showrunners and producers.

(01:47:17):
So I think of it as Itake it pretty seriously, like I've got
to look at this stuff and I'vegot to give it the best shot I
can. And I really love it. It's really fun. It's not for
everyone, like you were saying.I I mean, my own mom is
like, I don't know how youdo it. I couldn't do it.

(01:47:38):
Like it just makes your twitch eventhinking about it, because you have to
stick with it. It's it's it'sit can be intense but it's so much
fun. I get to stick picturesand sound and music together to tell stories
to make it and that's how Imake my living. It's incredible. I
feel so grateful. It sounds incredible. Yeah, I had I actually had

(01:48:00):
a moment when you say that,because you know, I'm a psychologist and
people people come in and give me. They give me this mess. They
tell me all the horrible things aboutthemselves, and then they give it to
me, and it's an honor totake that. You have to treat it
gently and maybe rework it in away to give it back to them in

(01:48:27):
a way that maybe makes more senseor tells a story or explains the quality
of their life or something like that. I don't know, So I had
a little moment. Yeah. Imean it's like being trusted. You know,
they really trust me and the Jaysor are they really trust all of
their people? You know, whetheryou're doing the sound or you're doing the

(01:48:48):
cinematographer, you're doing the direct time. That's what a wonderful thing about them
is they don't micromanage. They reallytrust you. Of course, they micromanage
the cuts. They go deep intodetail, and sometimes their cuts are so
hard because there are such tiny tonalshifts that they want to change, and
I think to myself, I don'tthink that's in the footage, But but

(01:49:12):
then I I just have to try, you know, and then often I'll
find I think you referenced a lookfrom Alan and one of your one of
these podcasts. I think it wasin episode four when Sam's about to go
out. Alan convinced Sam to goout, and and there's this look from
Alan like what's he going to do? Because he goes towards the door,

(01:49:33):
and you're like, oh, there'sa brilliant performance of Alan. And I
smiled because the jay's had asked forthat moment and I found that moment.
I found that moment on Alan.I sort of peeled through all these looks.
So there was and it wasn't evenmeant to be that moment, but
the fact that it worked for you, yeah, was like, Oh,

(01:49:55):
that's that's an editor like, that'swhat we do. We try to we
try to deep die to help findthose moments that the showrunners, directors want
us, network wants us to findgratifying. Sorry, no, no,
it's okay. That must have beenso gratifying. Did then hear us say
that that moment that you actually workedto put together, Yeah, it was.

(01:50:18):
It was exciting, and you know, we're kind of we're behind the
scenes, but we are, youknow. It's it's it's fun to feel
like we've made a difference to theviewer and to what the intention was that
the writers had. We made thathappen and you guys got it, which

(01:50:40):
was really cool. And it's alsoyou know, we talk about your client,
you're being a therapist. It's almostlike listening to this footage too,
Like I go in with it andI'm looking and I'm listening, and it's
it's like this weird thing where itsort of speaks to me, you know
what? What that interesting? Sometimesit's just like, oh, I'm interested

(01:51:02):
in this moment. I'm going touse it. It feels interesting. I'm
suddenly perked up by a performance.But it's paying attention and listening to what
it is too that helps decide whatto pick. We just keep picking things
to cut, you know. AndI have an editor friend who said one

(01:51:25):
time that the worst thing an editorcan do is nothing, because once you
start doing something, it tells youwhat the next action can be. Oh,
that didn't work. Oh that works, Oh that one doesn't work,
So to just keep trying something.So with that in mind, we've talked
a lot about the things that havesurprised Stacy and I during this watching these

(01:51:47):
episodes, and it does. Andyou have described it the creation of this
show as a journey. I thinkmany of the people that we've spoken to
have ribbed it as a journey,which you know, they kind of knew
where they were going, but alsoreally didn't entirely know how it was going
to get there. It sounds likethis show really evolved over the process of

(01:52:12):
making it, and a lot ofchanges happened, a lot of surprises happened.
Was there anything that was particularly asurprise for you that you discovered or
that happened to you during the process. Well, I think we had to
in a way all collaborate, evenas editors, and more than we did

(01:52:34):
on The Americans, because when TheAmericans started, the pilot had already been
made and it was already in existencefor you know, I think a year
before we got on, so thetone had could have been set, and
we were more in our individual youknow, Usually we each take an episode
and we alternate episodes, and wedon't really cross over. We support each

(01:52:56):
other. But I think especially withthe earlier episodes, we had to be
willing to kind of give a pieceof what we cut in episode three to
go to episode six. You know, there was a lot more sharing of
that, and so the ego hadto kind of be go away, you
know, and just say, youknow what this is. This is a

(01:53:16):
really interesting tone we're trying to find. This is a really interesting story we're
trying to tell is it is itcomedy sometimes, is it horror? Is
it drama? You know? Andso I think I learned. I mean,
I'm always learning how to collaborate better, but it's walking that line of

(01:53:39):
being sort of strong and in yourinstincts and executing them, but also to
just be like, okay, here'sthis scene three. It seems from episode
three you could take it and putit in your episode six. And and
so I think that was a learninggrowing experience for me. And you know,

(01:54:02):
none of us knew what happened atthe end, So that was a
surprise what was going to happen atthe end, and uh, you know,
it was all we were all soexcited because it wasn't the Hollywood ending,
and yet you do have some resolve, Like you said, when he
writes that letter, you know he'sthere. It's it always was a spiritual

(01:54:23):
journey. And the Jays, likethe Americans, you empathize with the bad
guys as well as the good.The good guys and the bad guys.
You're going so real and into depthsinto them. I mean, Sam's trying.
He tries, and he tries,and he tries. So I felt
for Sam, you know, Ireally did, even though I didn't,

(01:54:45):
you know, didn't want him tokill Alan at the end of the episode
ten. You know, we didn'tusually put song we had I love to
put songs in. There was alot of score and I loved Nate's score,
and I attempted it with a lotof an eight score and he did
an incredible job. Um, butat the end of ten, I was
like, can I try a songat the end because I love trying to

(01:55:05):
And they said, yeah, whynot. I say, it's the end
credits. Maybe we'll leave it.It won't just go to the next episode.
And so I started researching Scottish songsongs about the Kottish since that was
a sort of theme and and Ifound this Leonard Cohen song you want It
Darker and I and I was like, oh, this is good, this

(01:55:26):
is good and I and so Iput that in. I put that in
at the end, and I showedit to the jay'son Chris and they were
like, because I knew they'd likedLeonard Cohen from the Americans, we used
him and the Americans too, andthey said, oh my gosh, Amanda,
if we could have asked any artistto write a song for this show,
it would be this song. AndI was really excited by that because,

(01:55:47):
um, we didn't have many songsin the show at all, so
that was that was an exciting thingto find. Wow, that's loved it.
Yeah, yeah, it's really it'scool. And that happens when you
when you nail it, you know, but it usually doesn't happen with the
first song that was wild. Yeah, So that was really kind of thrilling.

(01:56:11):
And and I've learned about the song. I mean, I knew he
wrote it a couple of weeks beforehe died, and there is lyrics that
have to do with the Cottish init, and then it has a lot
of that closmer sound in it,so it felt very totally like the patient.
But uh, but then I alsoread that he wrote it with his
son, apparently, which I thoughtI did not know. Wow, that's

(01:56:33):
meaningful. Yeah so I yeah,that was cool. I have one more
very quick question, and then onemore that maybe not as quick. I
know who you're probably looking at thetime. I'll do the quick one first,
and then you'll tell me if youhave time for the other one.
Everyone wants to know. Some peopleseem to think there's going to be a

(01:56:56):
season two, think that they've reada season two, or there's some clues
to season two. Can you putthat idea to rest for us? Is
there or isn't there going to bea season two? I have not heard
that there was going to be aseason two. Okay, okay, thank
you. How could you have aseason two? Right? Well? I

(01:57:19):
agree, I mean, no onelistens to me, but yeah, okay,
thank you. Do you have timefor the less short question, of
course? Yeah? Okay, I'mvery much enjoying this. Okay, good,
thank you, so are we.I'm just curious about the decision to

(01:57:41):
end the episode on that one wordof Ezra going I and then it ends.
So can you talk a little bitabout that, you know, it's
the intention is that he's just goingto start really telling his story. It

(01:58:03):
was tricky because it wasn't necessarily clearin the footage. I had to work
to get that moment to really feellike it was an eye that was starting
to tell a story. It's verysubtly done, and even when I read

(01:58:24):
the script, I felt like therewas some I wasn't exactly sure if he
was going to start telling his storyor not, but it was definitely the
intention that it was the beginning ofhis opening up in therapy. So we
had to work a little bit withthat footage to really make that clear in
that moment. But it's interesting thatyou ask about that, because I felt

(01:58:45):
like I really had to and Imight even have used a different audio that
continues past the cut of what thepicture is, because I'm often doing a
lot of audio replacement where somebody flubsa line and you have to go and
search for an audio from a differenttakens to get in their mouth, So
that may have even happened in thelast In that last moment, Chris Long

(01:59:09):
gets very excited about that last scenebecause it's the very last scene of the
of the series. And it's allwhy shots. There's no costups. He
shot close ups, but it wasso beautiful when I cut it, it
just felt so right in the widesbecause there's distance between them literally as there
was emotionally distant and he can't getclose, so a close up I think

(01:59:30):
I tried to cut in a closeup and it just felt it just felt
like we wanted to stay in thatphysical distance. And Chris was super excited
about That's great. That's really great, Amanda. We have so enjoyed talking
to you and hearing about your experiences. This has been so informative and helpful.

(01:59:53):
We really appreciate your time with ustoday. Thank you so much for
being with us. Thank you forhaving me. It's been it's been a
little yes, thank you. Man. Yeah, congratulations on an incredible job.
Thank you. I was thrilled tobe a part of it. All
right, that was incredible. Thatwas Amanda Pollock, editor of The Patient,

(02:00:14):
And man, I love what IOkay, I actually love her.
And I want to talk about whyI love her Because you think of an
editor as being a strictly technical job, right, you think of that being
just like, yeah, I'm theguy who like takes the deck of cards
and puts them in the correct order. Right, that's what you think of
editing, but it is from hertelling of how she does her job.

(02:00:40):
It's so not that, Like,it's so this instinctual sort of storytelling thing
where she's really just looking at differentpieces of footage and just honestly thinking about
how they flow. And we've beenrightfully giving all the credit to the Jay's
and Chris Long and these people whoare the creators and the directors this,
but clearly she has a very intensecreative investment in this entire process, and

(02:01:08):
it was so awesome to learn aboutthat from her and to really hear how
she how she fits into that process. I mean, she's really passionate about
what she does, and she youknow, made it sound like this,
and I think it is this beautifulthing that she's doing, you know of

(02:01:29):
And I had no idea that editorswere the ones who brought the music in,
so that was really interesting to learnthat. You probably knew that already,
but I do. Yeah, AndI thought it was really interesting to
hear that the way that scene waswas cut was scripted that way by the

(02:01:49):
Jay's. So yeah, like that'sjust I don't even know how they managed
to do that, you know,do people actually write like that? And
then it goes back in time andthen it goes forward and then it goes
to the stream sequence and that youknow, like that that's how they wrote
the script. That was a totalsurprise to me. Yeah, I mean

(02:02:14):
yeah, it because in the moment, it feels like a jumble, and
as a viewer, as you're watchingit, you really are like, wait,
where is this going? Where arewe? Who are these people?
What's happening over here? And thenall of a sudden, it like there's
a moment where it all sort ofcomes together in your brand and you're like,
oh my god, that's it.That's what it is, and just

(02:02:35):
now it's just a matt Okay,just to like totally blow your mind,
Stacy and think about this for asecond. Right, probably for every single
one of those shots of those ofthose sequence, of that sequence, right,
that sequence that's like does all thesedifferent things and is super confusing.
They probably had multiple takes of eachof those shots. So Amanda has to

(02:02:59):
go through and like filter out like, Okay, what's the best line reading
of this versus this? And she'sprobably like putting it all together, and
so you're you're fulfilling a creative vision, but you're also at the same time
listening to each individual line and lookingat each individual shot and thinking like what

(02:03:24):
has the most emotional effect on me? Like what what is the thing that
lands on me the most, youknow? And so like it's a really
amazing skill. It's like it's likelooking at a bunch of dresses on a
rack, right and being like,uh, you know, like there are
seven red dresses and I'm going topick the red dress I like the most,

(02:03:45):
you know, And I'm really goodat that. Let me just say
sorry, I'm really good at that, but I don't know about this this
thing that she's doing. How goodidea at that? Right? Well,
now, it's like, okay,we're gonna watch a scene of a person
crying seven times and pick the scene, pick the scene that has the crying

(02:04:09):
moment that affects you the most,and like, how how do you even
determine that? Well, not onlythat, but she made it sound like
I forgot what the example was sheused, but that she had to go
look at all this other footage andlook for this moment that someone said something,
you know, um in just theright way, and she found it,

(02:04:30):
so she has to you know,she's it's I mean, it sounds
like a tremendous amount of energy,emotional and mental energy paying such close attention
to all of this footage and makingit fit together in a way that tells
the story. I just have thiswhole new appreciation for this editing. You

(02:04:54):
know, incredible. Yeah, Imean the other revelation for her from that
I learned from her that I didnot know was that, like she makes
an edit and then gives it tothe Jason is like, what do you
think of this? Like I alwaysthink of an editing suite is like there's
a director sitting over the editor's shoulderfrom the very beginning, being like I

(02:05:16):
like this. I don't like that. But the Jason seemed to trust her
to the point where they're like,Okay, you give us what you think
is your take, and then we'llcome back and we'll tell you how much
we like it or not. AndI think that's a I'm not sure that's
how the way it always goes tobe completely honest, I'm not one hundred
percent sure about that, And Ithink it speaks tremendously to her relationship with

(02:05:43):
them and their respect for her interms of and their trust in her in
terms of really being able to findthe right moments. It's really cool.
And I also just thought it wasinteresting that they broke up that last episode.
Kate sam for editing the first halfand she edited the second half,

(02:06:03):
And I don't know if one caneven tell the difference, but you know
that that was a surprise to me. Also totally Yeah, and we really
sort of got a number of answersabout how that last episode came together in
a way, you know, learninglike how even though there was clearly a

(02:06:28):
process of discovery to get to thatlast episode that it wasn't necessarily easy to
find in the end, the journeythat brought them there really made it seem
like this is the this is thecorrect ending, This is the ending that
really speaks the most to what theywanted to say with the show, and
none of them knew that ahead oftime. That's that's amazing. It's so

(02:06:49):
cool. Yeah, yeah, verycool. Yeah, And Okay, I
think it's time for us to talkabout the end of the show. I
think it's time because those out therein the world of the fan base of
the patients, I would say ithas been a very difficult couple of weeks

(02:07:14):
for them. Some people are happywith it, some people are unhappy with
it. Many people that I readthey were not just like mad about the
ending. They felt like betrayed.They wanted a refund, they wanted to
put the creators in time out.You know, they were just that guy
really upset about it. So thatguy, that guy and I Okay,

(02:07:38):
So, Stacy, Stacy, Ithink I need to I need you to
take on your doctor role for asecond. Here, your therapist role.
Yeah. I think we need todo some role playing. And I want
you to play the role of atherapist because that's your role that you do.
And I'll play the role of peoplethat are upset and um and I

(02:07:59):
would okay, let's just say let'stake an abstract, right, Let's say
I come to you and I say, Doc, Stacy, I am really
upset. I got into a relationshipwith a person I'll call him Alan,
right, and at the very beginningof my relationship with Alan, I was

(02:08:22):
pretty sure it wasn't gonna work out. I felt like things didn't look good
for me and Alan to last fora long time. But then I got
into the relationship with Alan, andI put a lot of hope into Alan,
and I put a lot of workand thought and effort in every week
I would make sure that Alan andI spent time together, and I grew

(02:08:43):
to really appreciate and love Alan,and then at the last minute, the
relationship did not work out. Andnow I'm really upset with myself that I
invested so much in that relationship withAlan and Alan and the end left me
like I thought he would at thevery beginning, And I don't know what

(02:09:05):
to do. What would you advisea person who is going through these feelings?
Wow, Lindsay, I mean,I mean, there's a part of
me that wants to know, likewhy you care so much about a television
character. But that's one that's that'smy non professional question. I think.

(02:09:30):
Okay, I don't know if youcan't start with that, no, I
probably wouldn't. Another part of memight say, while it sounds like what
happened with Alan has happened to youin your real life, and so you
know you you're afraid to get closeto people because you're worried that they're going

(02:09:50):
to leave you, even though youmight anticipate that from the beginning that someone
might leave you. So I mightget a little psychodynamic there, and you
know, say that, um,you know, and I might advise you
to invest in real life, youknow, and like, you know,

(02:10:16):
like what what can you do inyour real life to give your life meaning?
You know? And certainly television showsand sports, you know, like
I live in Wisconsin and the GreenBay Packers have lost like three games in
a row, and people are justlike, you know, in mourning or

(02:10:37):
something. So I might say,well, you know, like these things
are entertainment, but what else canwhat else can you invest in to give
your life meaning besides television sports thingslike that, you know, and we
need many things, We need manythings to give our life meaning. But
but yeah, so how did Ido it? Because I would say,

(02:11:01):
I think that was good, althoughwhat it basically feels like you're telling me
is watch less television, which isnot necessarily terrible advice. But I okay,
So where I come from in thetheater, Yeah, when people say
to me something like this, Iwould go back to William Shakespeare, and
I would say, better to havelost and loved than never to have loved

(02:11:22):
at all, you know, whichis usually something I throw out there,
and then people say, that's areally dissatisfying answer. That's really upsetting,
And I don't really appreciate that,you know, I don't think I I
appreciate theater. Yeah, I don't. I don't think I'm saying watch less
television. I might be saying getless invested because became Yeah, because these

(02:11:43):
people are, like I mean,some of them are just I think,
being a little overly dramatic. LikeI I watched it, and I've talked
about this already at the beginning,and I felt a little disappointed and down
when I watched it the first time, and I'm really down. And then
I watched it again and found somemeaning and found some way in which it

(02:12:09):
made sense for me. And this, this is the Victor Frankel solution,
actually, is that we all weall suffer, we all have suffering,
and it's really important that we findand create meaning in our suffering. So
if you're a fan who really hatedthe ending and are mad about it,

(02:12:30):
I'm going to suggest that you tryto find some meaning in that, because
I have to tell you that Jay'sdon't care if you hated it, and
there's nothing you can do about it, and I don't think I don't think
Hulu is going to give you arefund, So try to find some meaning
in that ending. That's what Igot. Absolutely not how I thought this

(02:12:52):
conversation would go. I really thatultimately your professional advice would be watch less
television and nobody cares. But Okay, I'd like to say to these people
who are upset with the show,I think then the show has actually done
its job, because what the showdid was it got you invested in the

(02:13:16):
humanity of these people. It madeit difficult for you to root against Sam,
because even though Sam is a serialkiller, you still feel for him,
You empathize with him on some level. You're obviously really rooting for Alan
to somehow come out of this unscathed, even though that seems almost impossible,

(02:13:37):
and every single episode it seems almostimpossible. Yeah. But but the fact
that the show got you to investin it and care about it, I
think that is important not to losethat hope and trust that you invested in
Alan, and maybe find other thingsto invest in that as well, and

(02:14:01):
not feel so like I get rippedoff by this TV show, and more
like, you know, I learnedlessons from this show. I learned important
things. I feel like I feellike I learned all sorts of things from
this show. Yeah, right,yeah, and yeah, ultimately Alan made
his choice, right, you know, so let's just pretend he's a real

(02:14:22):
person. Alan made his choice andpeople weren't really happy with that choice,
but that was his choice. That'sthat's what he had to do for himself.
So yes, you know. Yeah, So someone asked, you know
us, because this is our lastpodcast, also lindsay for now, right,
and because Amanda put to rest theidea that there's a season two.

(02:14:46):
There was no season two. Thiswas it, and so were we Someone
asked, I asked for questions foryou and I, and someone said,
were we satisfied with the one season? And I I am. I feel
like, yes, it's it,that's it. That's enough. Yeah,
it's time. It's a Yeah.I mean, I don't even know what

(02:15:11):
season two would be unless Allan suddenlycomes back from the dead, which would
be amazing, or um, themom suddenly becomes a serial killer or you
know, or becomes you know,a serial killer hunter and then she teams
up with like doctor Laura Petler andthey go out and fight crime together.
That would be cool, yea um, But other than that, I don't

(02:15:35):
know where Susan two could be andI and I But I honestly though,
I do feel like the way theshow ended, I I can, I
can. I can be satisfied andbe able to say that was a complete
experience and I appreciate that, andI'm ready to move on to the next
experience. Yeah, for sure,in the same way that being on this
podcast has been an amazing experience,I, who have never hosted a podcast

(02:15:58):
before, have really enjoy hosting thispodcast with you. This has been so
much fun. We should definitely takea second to thank our producer, Tyler
Nielsen, who has been with usthrough Dick Entent on this thing as we
wrote this crazy roller coaster of howto make a podcast at the last second
about a show that we didn't knowanything about. We should thank the folks

(02:16:20):
at FX for the support they gaveus for the show, and we should
definitely thank the Jay's for their support. Although Distant was extremely gratifying to us
and to all of the amazing peoplewho worked on this show, the cast,

(02:16:41):
the crew, the creative team,everybody who surrounded the show, all
of our guests who came in andshared their experiences and ideas and thoughts,
and as well as the many psychologicalexperts who joined us on this program who
gave us therein sites. I feellike I have learned a tremendous amount doing

(02:17:03):
this podcast, like a crazy tremendousamount, and I'm really glad to have
gone through it. And of courseI want to say my last thank you
to you, Stacy for inviting meto be on the show. I've really
enjoyed it, so thank you somuch. Linsey, I want to thank
you too. It's been so muchfun. I knew when I met you
that that we had to do moretogether because there were so many more stories

(02:17:26):
to tell. But I also forsure what surprised me. I don't know,
I'm not really maybe a cynical person, but every single person we had
on this podcast was so generous withtheir time and their opinions and their you
know, they all I think theyall seem to enjoy talking to us.

(02:17:48):
And you know, these are likereally famous and important people who just donated
their time to us. You know, like I'm I'm like this, you
know, like old lady from Wisconsin. So UM, that was really just
so touching and I appreciate every singleone. And you'll all be hearing from

(02:18:11):
me in the future if you haven'talready anyway, UM, to do to
do more and yes and and toTyler and straw hut um you know for
all the support that you gave usin this you know process. As you
said, we had this idea boom, let's get it on right now so
that we can try to be timelyand UM, and I want to say

(02:18:33):
that this is the end of psychoanalyzingthe patient. There might be more psychoanalyzing
in our future, so everyone shouldstay tuned, you know. UM,
do not unsubscribe because who knows,there could be a bonus episode that comes
out. There could be something newthat we psychoanalyze, you know. UM,

(02:18:56):
please everybody stay you know, stayconnected, and UM feel free to
follow. I have a blog onthe ship that happens to me dot com
and so UM I'll put updates thereas well. So thanks everyone, and
thank you Lindsay. It was reallyfun. Thank you. Yeah, it

(02:19:18):
was great. I'm so glad wecan do it. Um. All right,
everybody, well, what do youOkay, So Stacy, last thing,
what do you say to a patientwhen they're done with therapy, Like
how do you how do you tellthem to goodbye forever like you hit the
road or what do you do?Yeah, that's a really great question.
Um, it's it's often a mutualdecision, you know, like we we

(02:19:39):
find ourselves talking about television shows,you know, like, um, there's
they or they've you know, completedtheir goals, you know, like we
have lists of goals, they completetheir goals that we space out the time
together, and you know, theystart coming in and they're saying things like
I don't really don't have anything totalk about, and so we decide to,

(02:20:01):
you know, call it quits.And sometimes it's maybe I'll see you
again in the future. Maybe they'removing far away. But we do something
called a relapse prevention plan where wetalk about, you know, what they've
done that's worked, and they shouldkeep those tools nearby and talk about how

(02:20:22):
to keep themselves, you know,staying in good shape. And then and
then we say goodbye. And beforeCOVID, there might have been a hug
involved. You know. Sometimes Iam a therapist who has hugged their patients.
I don't think I've given any hugssince COVID. But yeah, and
then it's it's hard because it's arelationship that ends, you know, I'm

(02:20:46):
just as invested as they are,and it's hard to say goodbye. All
Right, that's good. I'm gladI'm not the only one who feels that
way. Yeah, because I feelthat way too. Yeah, all right,
Well, okay, I guess relapseprevention plan for you listeners who have
been listening to this is take whatyou've learned from us. Don't get sucked

(02:21:07):
into that dumb er show if youcan, or whatever. Like you know,
do your best to like watch othershows besides Cereal killer shows if you
can, and hopefully we'll see youat some point in the future. But
for now, this is the endof our session. Our time is up
for being with us on our timeis up. Thank you for being on

(02:21:28):
Psychoanalyzing the Basis. Bye bye,