October 21, 2024 • 34 mins
Join us for an enriching conversation with Miss Debbie, an esteemed Anishinaabe elder, as she invites us to rethink our relationship with happiness and life's journey. Discover how seeing life as a gift, rather than a struggle, can transform daily challenges into celebrations. Through a captivating exchange, Miss Debbie and I contrast different perceptions of "work" and happiness, illustrating how language and perspective profoundly shape our experiences. With the metaphor of a baby's first cry as a joyful sign of life, she encourages us to greet each day with gratitude and celebration.
Our journey doesn't stop there, as we examine the cyclical nature of life that Miss Debbie shares, challenging the linear views prevalent in Western psychology. The wisdom of our ancestors and the teachings of interconnectedness offer a fresh lens on happiness—one rooted in understanding our emotions as integral parts of us. Through the symbolism of the seven rocks, representing virtues like love and honesty, we emphasize the importance of community and living in harmony with all of nature. This episode is a bridge between complex psychological insights and practical well-being, offering actionable steps for a fulfilling life while fostering balance and respect for all living beings.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The following is a series of candid conversations.
The content is intended forinformational purposes only and
is not a substitute for seekinghelp from a mental health care
professional.
To learn more info regardingadditional disclaimers, privacy
policies and terms andconditions, please visit
HelloDrTammycom.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Bonjour, welcome to Psychologist Say, a podcast
where I talk about thepsychology of everyday living.
I'm your host, dr Tammy.
If you're a return listener,thank you for the support and if
you're new, welcome.
I'm joined today by one of ourlocal Anishinaabe elders.
Her name is Miss Debbie and I'mexcited to have her on the show
today.
Debbie, do you just want to sayhello to the audience?
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Amen, it's a beautiful day today, thank you.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Wonderful.
And so Miss Debbie listened tothe podcast and she was really
intrigued by the conversationsthat we've been having on
Psychologist Say.
Miss Debbie has been my teacherin our Anishinaabe teachings
and our worldview could impactthis conversation, and this is
(01:33):
something we do in the clinic.
Here we do this on a lowerlevel where we're trying to
enhance it, so I'm really gladshe's here today to talk about
one of the episodes on happiness.
Now, Miss Debbie listened tothe episode on happiness and
several others, but she wantedto start with she and I having a
good discussion about herreaction to Harold and I's
(01:57):
conversation on what that means.
And so, Debbie, do you want tojust share some of your thoughts
after listening to that onepodcast?
Sure.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
I think the first word that got my attention was
the word work, and you mentionedthat we have to work to be
(02:35):
happy or we have to create it.
And I don't want to disagreewith you.
It's good that we havedifferent viewpoints at times,
but for you, at this point inlife, that's how you think about
it and that's good.
That's a good thing.
For me, at the point of lifewhere I'm at the word work
(02:58):
according to how we think thatthis society thinks about that
word, it might have a negativeconnotation.
To me, work is a word that justmotivates me to be
(03:21):
self-nurturing, because I knowwhat I'm going to feel after I
have that little accomplishment,even if it's walking from the
bed to the kitchen in the earlymorning when my hips are hurting
(03:42):
.
I know that I'm going to feelreally good when I sit down, and
so I'm looking forward to thataccomplishment and that good
feeling.
So there's no negativeconnotation to that.
It's not work, it's aself-fulfilling thing that I got
(04:05):
to do Right, or that I want todo or that is before me to do.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Right, right, and I think and I know we've had this
conversation actually justrecently on the way that I word
things I think I said life is astruggle.
You know there's life is hard.
And you said you know not todisagree with me, but you said
(04:33):
that's not the way I view youknow, that's not the words.
And I think, when I'm usingthat word, I think the word that
comes to mind is effort.
That's the self, that's theself.
Work is that there's an effort,that our mind has to decide to
(04:54):
take some sort of action, ifthat's what requires us to get
to that good moment, thatfeeling good.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
For me, effort is already a wonderful thought
because I know I'm receivingfrom there and I'm going to feel
good after that.
I feel good about doing italready.
See to me, saying life is hardis putting a negative thought
(05:24):
there and talking about thenegative.
For me, life is a gift and soit's not hard.
I'm glad to take care of it byfeeling good about all of these
(05:46):
things other people might thinkof as work, when it's actually
taking care of our life, thisbeautiful gift that we've been
given, and helping us to moveforward into the next phase of
the week or the day or phase ofyour life.
(06:07):
Right, you know?
we have those phases, seasons.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
So could you explain for our listeners the seasons,
because I introduced you as anelder, but I think it would be
really helpful for our listenersto understand what season of
the life you're in and thenmaybe the season of life I'm in
and how that relates to ourAnishinaabe perspective on even
(06:35):
the daily.
You know, waking up to think oflife as a gift versus, you know
my brain thinks this is.
You know, I got to work and itdoesn't mean I just have to go
to work to make a living.
It means I need to eventuallyput one foot.
I have to trigger my brain toget out of bed, and there are
some people like me thatactually have to talk themselves
(06:57):
into just moving into actionfor the day.
I would love to wake up andjust have that internal feeling
of gosh, this is a gift.
Get up, start living.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
And I think a lot of our listeners would.
When anything like that comesas soon as I open up my eyes,
I'm already giving thanks that Ican see.
Okay, I'm already giving thanks, I can breathe.
Think about it like this whenyou see your baby smile for the
(07:30):
first time, that's not actuallyhis first happy.
His first happy was what peoplecall as a cry, their first
sound when they are born.
And what does a cry say?
The cry?
In English, it means you'reuncomfortable, but here for us,
(07:55):
they're celebrating life,they're giving thanks for this.
Oh wow, I'm in a differentjourney now.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
And this is.
It's not really a cry, oh wow.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
I'm in a different journey now and this is it's not
really a cry, it's we'recelebrating life.
I'm alive, like the buffalo.
They're already alive becausethey're alive in the womb, but
they're stepping into this newjourney where they prepared for
for nine months, you know, andwow, they made it.
(08:25):
You know, Now let's celebrate.
You know, it's that life we'recelebrating.
So, even opening up your eyes,you know so already.
That's not his first happinessfeeling.
It's like some people are justnow seeing it.
But, like for me, when I hearthat baby sound, mm-hmm, and
(08:51):
it's just amazing that I couldwitness being there and enjoying
his enjoyment of, or her of,making that first sound that
first sound right, and Westernmedicine too right.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
They used to spank the baby's bottom when they were
first born, well, as a sign toif they weren't making noise and
if they weren't crying, right.
So that was actually a way toget them to cry and that was
saying oh, they're alive,they're responsive responsive
(09:38):
there.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
But think about that as the first pain, the first
hurt.
What happens when they firstthe first born and some old guy
comes and spank you on thebottom Right?
You know, think if you're agirl you don't want to be
spanked on the bottom.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Yeah, I don't think they do that anymore.
I mean, I don't know when theystopped doing that.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
That makes me sad.
You may have a long ways to go.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
I mean, it may have happened to your children, right
?
You birthed them in thehospital and I know that there
are some people bringing backthe Indigenous birthing methods,
but I know I was born in aregular hospital.
I'm not sure what, how you know.
(10:20):
Those are the things.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
I don't think we think about how did we start?
That's a different culture thatwas demanded of us as
indigenous people.
We have to leave our oldculture behind, Right, and we
still in many ways.
And so now we're just nowrecovering from that by taking
(10:46):
and loving the concepts of theindigenous ways.
You know, it's just.
It's such a beautiful thing tobe glad that we were given this
opportunity to walk this journeyin a different life, Like we
(11:09):
came from that life over thereand we got to experience this.
And it's because we asked to dothat Right from that life over
there and we got to experiencethis.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
And it's because we asked to do that Right and
that's going really.
You know that's going to alevel of teachings that you know
many people don't have, thatyou know that when we're waking
up in the morning even thoughI've been learning from you
actively for about 20 years orlonger I can see how much work I
need to do on going back to thegift of just being alive for
(11:41):
one.
But I think that many of ourlisteners are searching for some
of this peace that you are nowliving because you've spent most
of your life reclaiming andrelearning, and I would call it
doing the work to find out andstore and share teaching.
(12:03):
So the work to me is a wordthat says I'm intentionally
putting in effort, I'm making mymental decision, I'm not just
thinking about it.
I'm making my mental decision,I'm not just thinking about it,
I'm putting action into mythought and that produces
(12:23):
something that can then producesome feeling of joy or peace or
happiness.
And so we're talking to you inyour season.
You're in the winter season ofyour life, right?
Speaker 1 (12:30):
I would think that.
Yes, look at my hair.
It's white, like in the winterseason of Mother Earth.
She has four seasons every year, and so in the winter she has
that white blanket on.
And then she gets to renew.
But as people, when we're inour winter season, then we're
(12:56):
getting ready to enter that newlife again, that new phase,
Correct and when we leave.
And so getting ready is when weleave, where I mean just for our
listeners ready is when weleave, where I mean just for our
(13:20):
listeners we will be going to,we're getting ready to go toward
that new phase of life whereit's going to be just as
exciting and wonderful as it iswhen the new baby was born and
made that first sound.
You know, here I am and there'sa deities there and our creator
(13:46):
.
We think from here, but we getto go to, we're not dying, we're
not dying, it's a new life,it's a wonderful thing.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Transition.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Because my body has got its winter season.
So my mind wants to do morethan my body will allow me to at
this time, right, do more thanmy body will allow me to at this
time, right.
And so I know that my body'sgetting ready to go into that
(14:23):
new phase.
So the life, the spirit, willleave the body, but it's just
going into a new phase when weleave, and a new season we get
to go.
A new season, possibly, maybe,in the other world.
There are many seasons, wedon't know, okay, but that's
(14:46):
what the black color, in my wayof thinking, is.
That black is my faith thatit's got to be a good place,
because my mom's there, mygrandpa's there, my grandma's
there, okay, you know, all ofthose that left before me.
Get to meet all these wonderfulancestors, right, right, and
(15:10):
imagine what I might learn,because, you know, while we're
here, I appreciate thatknowledge so much and I'm always
grasping reading and everythingand imagine what we'll be able
to learn when we get there.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
What a wonderful thought.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
What a wonderful thought Right.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
And when I'm looking at it, you know to our listeners
here, if you could see MissDebbie right now, her eyes are
just kind of really look, really, I would say optimistic,
hopeful, but really secure inwhat she's saying.
I guess she has a really light,bright look on her face when
(15:56):
she just explained the season oflife that she's in and the
color that she talked about wasblack and that's representing
her faith, that it's not justwhat we're told, it's what she
believes, and tying in that,with and like what we don't know
today, we can't see.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
So that might be a dark area because we're not
familiar with that whatever itis.
And Creator will give usenlightenment when it's time
Right.
When it's time Right, and if wedon't get some questions
answered, that's okay, becausethat's waiting for us when we
(16:40):
get there.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
So hey.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
I'll find out this when I get there.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Right, Okay, so I think we, you know, looking at
happiness and looking at ourseasons of life, there's four
seasons.
You're in your winter seasonand in Westernized psychology
that would be linear.
You're born, you grow, you haveyour peak and then you age and
(17:11):
it's kind of like a downward andthere's an end to life.
So I think, for our listeners,we're really looking at this as
that circular.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
It's not the end of life.
It's time now for your body togo back to the earth, but the
life that makes your body moveis your spirit.
So your spirit is what's movingon.
So we're going to be living adifferent phase.
(17:47):
We're going to be how do weknow?
Maybe we'll enter into a newbody or we don't know, but we
know that it's going to be good,because you know it was a good
life Right.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
And I think that a lot of our you know society
they're searching for something,some kind of belief like what
you're talking about and likewhat our people, you know, and
our ancestors they lived by, andI think that's that's kind of I
(18:43):
think that's the whole topic ofwhat is happiness that people
are trying to seek somethingsimilar to what you're
explaining and not just read itor hear it or listen to it, but
actually believe that.
And that's another level ofwhere I have a thought about
(19:06):
that.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
I'm sorry, am I interrupting?
No, you're good.
I have a thought about that.
I feel like it's a word that'snot separate from me.
It's a word that's not separatefrom you, it's a part of you.
And all of these emotions inbalance is what helps us to
(19:33):
appreciate and celebrate thislife.
Like someone talked about, it'snot an entitlement.
They expect that it's anentitlement.
Well, it's.
How could it be?
Either?
Or when it's a part of, it'salready a part of you, right?
(20:01):
Because if we have been givenpermission to come here on this
journey in our life, walk fromcreator, our light walk from
creator he thought about thatbefore he gave us that
permission, as a people, as apart of the living beings that
(20:45):
came to this area of theuniverse.
Mm-hmm.
Good, because it comes fromcreator's thought.
He allowed this to be.
We are his thoughts, our wholebeing.
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
I think, yeah, I think it's looking at it as we
were constantly seeking, maybeoutside or that's our tendency
to maybe try to own somethingthat we already possess.
We already have this and,believing that you have the
(21:26):
power to create these feelingsand see we don't possess it,
because then you're putting itseparate from you.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
It's a part, a part of us, it's already there.
And all of these parts workingin harmony.
It's like those little rocksoutside of that water drum.
That's what they represent.
You think about in the Englishway.
Now they explain that, likethose seven little rocks, one
(22:02):
represents each lodge thatbelongs to our Midewin Lodge,
the way we live the good life inBima-Adi-Suin, the way we live
the good life Now.
One of the rocks is eachgrandfather, each rock is a
grandfather, if you think of itthat way.
(22:23):
And they gave these gifts,revealed these gifts to the
little boy to bring back to thepeople, to reveal them, and like
one is love, then another oneis courage, another one is
bravery.
All together, well, there'sseven honesty, you know, and you
(22:47):
know the rest.
But if they're all working inbalance, if you have them, you
can acknowledge them.
Okay, this is honesty right nowand I'm going to enjoy it.
I'm enjoying it.
This is the respect, and also,if you have too much bravery,
(23:14):
you might do something thatmight hurt yourself.
So you've got to have thecourage to tell yourself okay,
back up, you need all theseother things here to keep you in
good harmony so that you canfunction in a tip-top shape.
(23:36):
Right, Some humility, the wayCreator expects it to be.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Right.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
And so that's why we need each other in this world,
because that water drum isteaching us that in that circle,
I need you, you need me, weneed everyone.
It's no good to think to walkalone.
It took a whole village to takecare of themselves.
(24:04):
It was hard.
It's too hard to live alone,right?
I don't know if that makessense to you.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
You know, just because I've been able to able
to you've been my teacher for avery long time, so it's
something that you'veabeteachings and that this may this
, a lot of this won't make totalsense to to them, but they're.
(24:41):
What we want to do is justintroduce this and allow people
to start having thisconversation to see if and a lot
of things that we talk aboutmaybe aren't making sense, but
people are listening becausethey're curious and they
sometimes one word that we sayor one you know phrase out of
(25:03):
the whole podcast can be enoughfor them to grasp onto.
So it's it's more about us justopening up and having the
conversation and allowing peopleto listen.
They're part of it.
You know, this is part of aconversation that many people
are not having.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
They don't know how to have it.
He made all seven nations,meaning the plant life as a
nation, the animal life as anation, the people as a nation.
You see what I'm saying?
Yeah, those that crawl, thosethat live in the water, right,
(25:47):
these are nations.
When he thought of that, hethought of us being a part of
each other, each other.
Yeah, the relationship inharmony is the good life.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Right like interconnectedness.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
The relationship of all these nations that I
mentioned Right, and that'sBemaad, that's that respect for
each other.
Then Mother Earth wouldn't bein the shape she's in because
that respect would have beenthere and there wouldn't be
taking too much of her mineralsor putting garbage in the water.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Right.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
Because everybody would have, oh no, we don't put
garbage in the water, right.
Because everybody would have,oh no, we don't put garbage in
the water.
Even our animals don't do that.
You know, domestic animals arethe only ones that they're
domestic.
Now, Domestic animals are theonly ones that poop in the water
(26:54):
naturally.
In the wild they don't do that.
It's a natural, normal thingnot to.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
That's the respect for all the other nations that's
using that water Right, right,and a big piece of what's
missing at large is taking careof the Mother Earth and Bima
Desiwin.
That Miss Debbie said is tolive a good life, and what she's
really getting at is thisbalance of the
(27:24):
interconnectedness and theteachings that we're giving to
us from Creator.
So our our topic of happiness.
When you, when you bring in andconsult with an Anishinaabe
elder, you can see thecomplexity of trying to to just
take one word and have a simpleconversation there's.
(27:48):
It reminds me a lot of inpsychology when people ask me
that, like, do you have an houror longer?
Because there are so manylayers to everything that you
just said.
I need time to explain it andtalk about all these things that
influence and you have toconsider and I think that's what
(28:09):
we're doing here is reallygoing back to the source of that
already exists.
It's internal I think that's aword I was trying to explain
somewhat last when Harold and Ihad this conversation is you
can't create this.
It's from the inside and Ithink part of that was, it's a
(28:32):
part of you and I thinkaddressing that, it's part of
your spirit, taking it out andusing it at the right time,
right Fear, courage it's a partof you.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Okay, I've got to use this today, just like all these
different tools in the drawerthere.
Okay, I've got to use that now,not a spare one and balancing
that.
And knowing when to grab whatyou need.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
When to grab what you need.
You know it's just natural andto celebrate all of the emotions
which are really consideredgifts.
And what's funny is there areseven core emotions that
psychology says that we have inAnishinaabe.
They say there's seven, there'sseven gifts and there is some
(29:16):
of the difference of exploringthose two and I think that would
be a really good conversationthat you and I can have again on
the on the podcast.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
We're talking about seven core versus the seven
gifts, of balancing, you know,humility, respect all of that,
balancing, you know, humility,respect, all of that, taking
pieces of that, even thoselodges.
See, seven is such a goodnumber.
Seven like represents thoseseven grandfathers, the seven
stopping places in our migrationfrom the eastern shores, right,
(29:47):
and seven lodges Right.
And what do those seven lodgeswhat you know?
One Sundance Lodge, you knowI've been someone shared with me
that this lodge is for earningRight.
This lodge is for healing Right, this lodge is for learning
(30:08):
Right, this lodge is forsocializing, our powwow lodge,
you know, and those kinds ofthings.
And there's lots of good thingsabout that seven.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Right, so much, so much.
So I'm glad you recognize that,thank you.
Oh, yes, yeah, and I think it'ssomething that I'm trying to
really keep our listeners onboard with where you and I are
going, because it's the samething I have to remember.
As a psychologist, I'm tryingto communicate this in everyday
(30:42):
language so that they can takesome of it, and I always have to
remind myself that I've trainedin this for 10 years and I've
been in the field for over 20.
So my brain just naturally hasall of the history of psychology
(31:02):
and of behavior, and then Ihave to remember that my
listeners and the patients I seethey don't have all that
history.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
And that's all learned behavior.
That might not have been a goodthing, right.
It's learned behavior becauseit was forced on us, right?
Right, because we didn't havethose things to worry about long
ago, right as much.
I'm sure we had hardships.
Yeah, you know, it wasn't allhunky-dory, right, but work was
(31:30):
a natural thing, yeah, but workwas a natural thing.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Yeah, I think it's more where our listeners for the
first, you know they may justbe hearing some of these
teachings and you've been livingthem, you know, you've been
teaching them for I mean most ofyour life.
(32:06):
So I'm trying to make sure tojust maybe get our listeners so
that they can, because I'mteaching, that has so many other
elements and so hopefullypeople are, you know, engaged in
this conversation with us andthat you're, you're, you know, I
(32:27):
hope that you're able to comeback and then follow up more on
the seven you know the, even theimportance of seven, but to to
break it down and then maybe wecan do that, that the emotions
versus the and the teachings ofthe seven gifts, and to give our
listeners somewhere to start,you know, somewhere to start to
integrate a bit of what you'vebeen living and what our
ancestors have known and andwhere we're at now with it to
(32:51):
the best of our ability, and tojoin in some of the psychology
that people are.
You know that that's what we'reusing to try to help people get
to a point of feeling well orfeeling like they're making the
right moves in their life.
So I think that's a great placefor us to continue to visit.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
Well, I'm glad I got to visit with you today and, yes
, I agree, let's do some more ofthis.
You know, knowledge doesn'tbelong to individuals.
It belongs to everyone.
So if we can share, thensomeone can use that in a good
(33:34):
way, then we've done somethinggood.
We've accomplished something tofeel good about.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Right, well, miigwech .
Thank you, miss Debbie, and I'mexcited to have future
conversations with you.
Harold, I know, will be joiningus for those conversations and
I know he has really greatquestions, and so I think that
we'll just have some moreconversations to come.
So thank you, listeners, and ifyou do have questions, you can
(34:05):
message, you can reach out to usideas of topics, and those are
always welcomed here.
Ps, looking at the role of justemotion and happiness and
opening it up to other cultures,other beliefs, other theories,
is something that can maybe helpus get to that next level of
(34:29):
our understanding and how we canachieve a good way of living.
Miigwech, miigwech.
The following is a series of candid conversations.
The content is intended forinformational purposes only and
is not a substitute for seekinghelp from a mental health care
professional.
To learn more info regardingadditional disclaimers, privacy
policies and terms andconditions, please visit
HelloDrTammycom.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Bonjour, welcome to Psychologist Say, a podcast
where I talk about thepsychology of everyday living.
I'm your host, dr Tammy.
If you're a return listener,thank you for the support and if
you're new, welcome.
I'm joined today by one of ourlocal Anishinaabe elders.
Her name is Miss Debbie and I'mexcited to have her on the show
today.
Debbie, do you just want to sayhello to the audience?
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Amen, it's a beautiful day today, thank you.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Wonderful.
And so Miss Debbie listened tothe podcast and she was really
intrigued by the conversationsthat we've been having on
Psychologist Say.
Miss Debbie has been my teacherin our Anishinaabe teachings
and our worldview could impactthis conversation, and this is
(01:33):
something we do in the clinic.
Here we do this on a lowerlevel where we're trying to
enhance it, so I'm really gladshe's here today to talk about
one of the episodes on happiness.
Now, Miss Debbie listened tothe episode on happiness and
several others, but she wantedto start with she and I having a
good discussion about herreaction to Harold and I's
(01:57):
conversation on what that means.
And so, Debbie, do you want tojust share some of your thoughts
after listening to that onepodcast?
Sure.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
I think the first word that got my attention was
the word work, and you mentionedthat we have to work to be
(02:35):
happy or we have to create it.
And I don't want to disagreewith you.
It's good that we havedifferent viewpoints at times,
but for you, at this point inlife, that's how you think about
it and that's good.
That's a good thing.
For me, at the point of lifewhere I'm at the word work
(02:58):
according to how we think thatthis society thinks about that
word, it might have a negativeconnotation.
To me, work is a word that justmotivates me to be
(03:21):
self-nurturing, because I knowwhat I'm going to feel after I
have that little accomplishment,even if it's walking from the
bed to the kitchen in the earlymorning when my hips are hurting
(03:42):
.
I know that I'm going to feelreally good when I sit down, and
so I'm looking forward to thataccomplishment and that good
feeling.
So there's no negativeconnotation to that.
It's not work, it's aself-fulfilling thing that I got
(04:05):
to do Right, or that I want todo or that is before me to do.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Right, right, and I think and I know we've had this
conversation actually justrecently on the way that I word
things I think I said life is astruggle.
You know there's life is hard.
And you said you know not todisagree with me, but you said
(04:33):
that's not the way I view youknow, that's not the words.
And I think, when I'm usingthat word, I think the word that
comes to mind is effort.
That's the self, that's theself.
Work is that there's an effort,that our mind has to decide to
(04:54):
take some sort of action, ifthat's what requires us to get
to that good moment, thatfeeling good.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
For me, effort is already a wonderful thought
because I know I'm receivingfrom there and I'm going to feel
good after that.
I feel good about doing italready.
See to me, saying life is hardis putting a negative thought
(05:24):
there and talking about thenegative.
For me, life is a gift and soit's not hard.
I'm glad to take care of it byfeeling good about all of these
(05:46):
things other people might thinkof as work, when it's actually
taking care of our life, thisbeautiful gift that we've been
given, and helping us to moveforward into the next phase of
the week or the day or phase ofyour life.
(06:07):
Right, you know?
we have those phases, seasons.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
So could you explain for our listeners the seasons,
because I introduced you as anelder, but I think it would be
really helpful for our listenersto understand what season of
the life you're in and thenmaybe the season of life I'm in
and how that relates to ourAnishinaabe perspective on even
(06:35):
the daily.
You know, waking up to think oflife as a gift versus, you know
my brain thinks this is.
You know, I got to work and itdoesn't mean I just have to go
to work to make a living.
It means I need to eventuallyput one foot.
I have to trigger my brain toget out of bed, and there are
some people like me thatactually have to talk themselves
(06:57):
into just moving into actionfor the day.
I would love to wake up andjust have that internal feeling
of gosh, this is a gift.
Get up, start living.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
And I think a lot of our listeners would.
When anything like that comesas soon as I open up my eyes,
I'm already giving thanks that Ican see.
Okay, I'm already giving thanks, I can breathe.
Think about it like this whenyou see your baby smile for the
(07:30):
first time, that's not actuallyhis first happy.
His first happy was what peoplecall as a cry, their first
sound when they are born.
And what does a cry say?
The cry?
In English, it means you'reuncomfortable, but here for us,
(07:55):
they're celebrating life,they're giving thanks for this.
Oh wow, I'm in a differentjourney now.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
And this is.
It's not really a cry, oh wow.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
I'm in a different journey now and this is it's not
really a cry, it's we'recelebrating life.
I'm alive, like the buffalo.
They're already alive becausethey're alive in the womb, but
they're stepping into this newjourney where they prepared for
for nine months, you know, andwow, they made it.
(08:25):
You know, Now let's celebrate.
You know, it's that life we'recelebrating.
So, even opening up your eyes,you know so already.
That's not his first happinessfeeling.
It's like some people are justnow seeing it.
But, like for me, when I hearthat baby sound, mm-hmm, and
(08:51):
it's just amazing that I couldwitness being there and enjoying
his enjoyment of, or her of,making that first sound that
first sound right, and Westernmedicine too right.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
They used to spank the baby's bottom when they were
first born, well, as a sign toif they weren't making noise and
if they weren't crying, right.
So that was actually a way toget them to cry and that was
saying oh, they're alive,they're responsive responsive
(09:38):
there.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
But think about that as the first pain, the first
hurt.
What happens when they firstthe first born and some old guy
comes and spank you on thebottom Right?
You know, think if you're agirl you don't want to be
spanked on the bottom.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Yeah, I don't think they do that anymore.
I mean, I don't know when theystopped doing that.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
That makes me sad.
You may have a long ways to go.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
I mean, it may have happened to your children, right
?
You birthed them in thehospital and I know that there
are some people bringing backthe Indigenous birthing methods,
but I know I was born in aregular hospital.
I'm not sure what, how you know.
(10:20):
Those are the things.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
I don't think we think about how did we start?
That's a different culture thatwas demanded of us as
indigenous people.
We have to leave our oldculture behind, Right, and we
still in many ways.
And so now we're just nowrecovering from that by taking
(10:46):
and loving the concepts of theindigenous ways.
You know, it's just.
It's such a beautiful thing tobe glad that we were given this
opportunity to walk this journeyin a different life, Like we
(11:09):
came from that life over thereand we got to experience this.
And it's because we asked to dothat Right from that life over
there and we got to experiencethis.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
And it's because we asked to do that Right and
that's going really.
You know that's going to alevel of teachings that you know
many people don't have, thatyou know that when we're waking
up in the morning even thoughI've been learning from you
actively for about 20 years orlonger I can see how much work I
need to do on going back to thegift of just being alive for
(11:41):
one.
But I think that many of ourlisteners are searching for some
of this peace that you are nowliving because you've spent most
of your life reclaiming andrelearning, and I would call it
doing the work to find out andstore and share teaching.
(12:03):
So the work to me is a wordthat says I'm intentionally
putting in effort, I'm making mymental decision, I'm not just
thinking about it.
I'm making my mental decision,I'm not just thinking about it,
I'm putting action into mythought and that produces
(12:23):
something that can then producesome feeling of joy or peace or
happiness.
And so we're talking to you inyour season.
You're in the winter season ofyour life, right?
Speaker 1 (12:30):
I would think that.
Yes, look at my hair.
It's white, like in the winterseason of Mother Earth.
She has four seasons every year, and so in the winter she has
that white blanket on.
And then she gets to renew.
But as people, when we're inour winter season, then we're
(12:56):
getting ready to enter that newlife again, that new phase,
Correct and when we leave.
And so getting ready is when weleave, where I mean just for our
listeners ready is when weleave, where I mean just for our
(13:20):
listeners we will be going to,we're getting ready to go toward
that new phase of life whereit's going to be just as
exciting and wonderful as it iswhen the new baby was born and
made that first sound.
You know, here I am and there'sa deities there and our creator
(13:46):
.
We think from here, but we getto go to, we're not dying, we're
not dying, it's a new life,it's a wonderful thing.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
Transition.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Because my body has got its winter season.
So my mind wants to do morethan my body will allow me to at
this time, right, do more thanmy body will allow me to at this
time, right.
And so I know that my body'sgetting ready to go into that
(14:23):
new phase.
So the life, the spirit, willleave the body, but it's just
going into a new phase when weleave, and a new season we get
to go.
A new season, possibly, maybe,in the other world.
There are many seasons, wedon't know, okay, but that's
(14:46):
what the black color, in my wayof thinking, is.
That black is my faith thatit's got to be a good place,
because my mom's there, mygrandpa's there, my grandma's
there, okay, you know, all ofthose that left before me.
Get to meet all these wonderfulancestors, right, right, and
(15:10):
imagine what I might learn,because, you know, while we're
here, I appreciate thatknowledge so much and I'm always
grasping reading and everythingand imagine what we'll be able
to learn when we get there.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
What a wonderful thought.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
What a wonderful thought Right.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
And when I'm looking at it, you know to our listeners
here, if you could see MissDebbie right now, her eyes are
just kind of really look, really, I would say optimistic,
hopeful, but really secure inwhat she's saying.
I guess she has a really light,bright look on her face when
(15:56):
she just explained the season oflife that she's in and the
color that she talked about wasblack and that's representing
her faith, that it's not justwhat we're told, it's what she
believes, and tying in that,with and like what we don't know
today, we can't see.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
So that might be a dark area because we're not
familiar with that whatever itis.
And Creator will give usenlightenment when it's time
Right.
When it's time Right, and if wedon't get some questions
answered, that's okay, becausethat's waiting for us when we
(16:40):
get there.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
So hey.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
I'll find out this when I get there.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Right, Okay, so I think we, you know, looking at
happiness and looking at ourseasons of life, there's four
seasons.
You're in your winter seasonand in Westernized psychology
that would be linear.
You're born, you grow, you haveyour peak and then you age and
(17:11):
it's kind of like a downward andthere's an end to life.
So I think, for our listeners,we're really looking at this as
that circular.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
It's not the end of life.
It's time now for your body togo back to the earth, but the
life that makes your body moveis your spirit.
So your spirit is what's movingon.
So we're going to be living adifferent phase.
(17:47):
We're going to be how do weknow?
Maybe we'll enter into a newbody or we don't know, but we
know that it's going to be good,because you know it was a good
life Right.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
And I think that a lot of our you know society
they're searching for something,some kind of belief like what
you're talking about and likewhat our people, you know, and
our ancestors they lived by, andI think that's that's kind of I
(18:43):
think that's the whole topic ofwhat is happiness that people
are trying to seek somethingsimilar to what you're
explaining and not just read itor hear it or listen to it, but
actually believe that.
And that's another level ofwhere I have a thought about
(19:06):
that.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
I'm sorry, am I interrupting?
No, you're good.
I have a thought about that.
I feel like it's a word that'snot separate from me.
It's a word that's not separatefrom you, it's a part of you.
And all of these emotions inbalance is what helps us to
(19:33):
appreciate and celebrate thislife.
Like someone talked about, it'snot an entitlement.
They expect that it's anentitlement.
Well, it's.
How could it be?
Either?
Or when it's a part of, it'salready a part of you, right?
(20:01):
Because if we have been givenpermission to come here on this
journey in our life, walk fromcreator, our light walk from
creator he thought about thatbefore he gave us that
permission, as a people, as apart of the living beings that
(20:45):
came to this area of theuniverse.
Mm-hmm.
Good, because it comes fromcreator's thought.
He allowed this to be.
We are his thoughts, our wholebeing.
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
I think, yeah, I think it's looking at it as we
were constantly seeking, maybeoutside or that's our tendency
to maybe try to own somethingthat we already possess.
We already have this and,believing that you have the
(21:26):
power to create these feelingsand see we don't possess it,
because then you're putting itseparate from you.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
It's a part, a part of us, it's already there.
And all of these parts workingin harmony.
It's like those little rocksoutside of that water drum.
That's what they represent.
You think about in the Englishway.
Now they explain that, likethose seven little rocks, one
(22:02):
represents each lodge thatbelongs to our Midewin Lodge,
the way we live the good life inBima-Adi-Suin, the way we live
the good life Now.
One of the rocks is eachgrandfather, each rock is a
grandfather, if you think of itthat way.
(22:23):
And they gave these gifts,revealed these gifts to the
little boy to bring back to thepeople, to reveal them, and like
one is love, then another oneis courage, another one is
bravery.
All together, well, there'sseven honesty, you know, and you
(22:47):
know the rest.
But if they're all working inbalance, if you have them, you
can acknowledge them.
Okay, this is honesty right nowand I'm going to enjoy it.
I'm enjoying it.
This is the respect, and also,if you have too much bravery,
(23:14):
you might do something thatmight hurt yourself.
So you've got to have thecourage to tell yourself okay,
back up, you need all theseother things here to keep you in
good harmony so that you canfunction in a tip-top shape.
(23:36):
Right, Some humility, the wayCreator expects it to be.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Right.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
And so that's why we need each other in this world,
because that water drum isteaching us that in that circle,
I need you, you need me, weneed everyone.
It's no good to think to walkalone.
It took a whole village to takecare of themselves.
(24:04):
It was hard.
It's too hard to live alone,right?
I don't know if that makessense to you.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
You know, just because I've been able to able
to you've been my teacher for avery long time, so it's
something that you'veabeteachings and that this may this
, a lot of this won't make totalsense to to them, but they're.
(24:41):
What we want to do is justintroduce this and allow people
to start having thisconversation to see if and a lot
of things that we talk aboutmaybe aren't making sense, but
people are listening becausethey're curious and they
sometimes one word that we sayor one you know phrase out of
(25:03):
the whole podcast can be enoughfor them to grasp onto.
So it's it's more about us justopening up and having the
conversation and allowing peopleto listen.
They're part of it.
You know, this is part of aconversation that many people
are not having.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
They don't know how to have it.
He made all seven nations,meaning the plant life as a
nation, the animal life as anation, the people as a nation.
You see what I'm saying?
Yeah, those that crawl, thosethat live in the water, right,
(25:47):
these are nations.
When he thought of that, hethought of us being a part of
each other, each other.
Yeah, the relationship inharmony is the good life.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Right like interconnectedness.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
The relationship of all these nations that I
mentioned Right, and that'sBemaad, that's that respect for
each other.
Then Mother Earth wouldn't bein the shape she's in because
that respect would have beenthere and there wouldn't be
taking too much of her mineralsor putting garbage in the water.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Right.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
Because everybody would have, oh no, we don't put
garbage in the water, right.
Because everybody would have,oh no, we don't put garbage in
the water.
Even our animals don't do that.
You know, domestic animals arethe only ones that they're
domestic.
Now, Domestic animals are theonly ones that poop in the water
(26:54):
naturally.
In the wild they don't do that.
It's a natural, normal thingnot to.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
That's the respect for all the other nations that's
using that water Right, right,and a big piece of what's
missing at large is taking careof the Mother Earth and Bima
Desiwin.
That Miss Debbie said is tolive a good life, and what she's
really getting at is thisbalance of the
(27:24):
interconnectedness and theteachings that we're giving to
us from Creator.
So our our topic of happiness.
When you, when you bring in andconsult with an Anishinaabe
elder, you can see thecomplexity of trying to to just
take one word and have a simpleconversation there's.
(27:48):
It reminds me a lot of inpsychology when people ask me
that, like, do you have an houror longer?
Because there are so manylayers to everything that you
just said.
I need time to explain it andtalk about all these things that
influence and you have toconsider and I think that's what
(28:09):
we're doing here is reallygoing back to the source of that
already exists.
It's internal I think that's aword I was trying to explain
somewhat last when Harold and Ihad this conversation is you
can't create this.
It's from the inside and Ithink part of that was, it's a
(28:32):
part of you and I thinkaddressing that, it's part of
your spirit, taking it out andusing it at the right time,
right Fear, courage it's a partof you.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Okay, I've got to use this today, just like all these
different tools in the drawerthere.
Okay, I've got to use that now,not a spare one and balancing
that.
And knowing when to grab whatyou need.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
When to grab what you need.
You know it's just natural andto celebrate all of the emotions
which are really consideredgifts.
And what's funny is there areseven core emotions that
psychology says that we have inAnishinaabe.
They say there's seven, there'sseven gifts and there is some
(29:16):
of the difference of exploringthose two and I think that would
be a really good conversationthat you and I can have again on
the on the podcast.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
We're talking about seven core versus the seven
gifts, of balancing, you know,humility, respect all of that,
balancing, you know, humility,respect, all of that, taking
pieces of that, even thoselodges.
See, seven is such a goodnumber.
Seven like represents thoseseven grandfathers, the seven
stopping places in our migrationfrom the eastern shores, right,
(29:47):
and seven lodges Right.
And what do those seven lodgeswhat you know?
One Sundance Lodge, you knowI've been someone shared with me
that this lodge is for earningRight.
This lodge is for healing Right, this lodge is for learning
(30:08):
Right, this lodge is forsocializing, our powwow lodge,
you know, and those kinds ofthings.
And there's lots of good thingsabout that seven.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Right, so much, so much.
So I'm glad you recognize that,thank you.
Oh, yes, yeah, and I think it'ssomething that I'm trying to
really keep our listeners onboard with where you and I are
going, because it's the samething I have to remember.
As a psychologist, I'm tryingto communicate this in everyday
(30:42):
language so that they can takesome of it, and I always have to
remind myself that I've trainedin this for 10 years and I've
been in the field for over 20.
So my brain just naturally hasall of the history of psychology
(31:02):
and of behavior, and then Ihave to remember that my
listeners and the patients I seethey don't have all that
history.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
And that's all learned behavior.
That might not have been a goodthing, right.
It's learned behavior becauseit was forced on us, right?
Right, because we didn't havethose things to worry about long
ago, right as much.
I'm sure we had hardships.
Yeah, you know, it wasn't allhunky-dory, right, but work was
(31:30):
a natural thing, yeah, but workwas a natural thing.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
Yeah, I think it's more where our listeners for the
first, you know they may justbe hearing some of these
teachings and you've been livingthem, you know, you've been
teaching them for I mean most ofyour life.
(32:06):
So I'm trying to make sure tojust maybe get our listeners so
that they can, because I'mteaching, that has so many other
elements and so hopefullypeople are, you know, engaged in
this conversation with us andthat you're, you're, you know, I
(32:27):
hope that you're able to comeback and then follow up more on
the seven you know the, even theimportance of seven, but to to
break it down and then maybe wecan do that, that the emotions
versus the and the teachings ofthe seven gifts, and to give our
listeners somewhere to start,you know, somewhere to start to
integrate a bit of what you'vebeen living and what our
ancestors have known and andwhere we're at now with it to
(32:51):
the best of our ability, and tojoin in some of the psychology
that people are.
You know that that's what we'reusing to try to help people get
to a point of feeling well orfeeling like they're making the
right moves in their life.
So I think that's a great placefor us to continue to visit.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
Well, I'm glad I got to visit with you today and, yes
, I agree, let's do some more ofthis.
You know, knowledge doesn'tbelong to individuals.
It belongs to everyone.
So if we can share, thensomeone can use that in a good
(33:34):
way, then we've done somethinggood.
We've accomplished something tofeel good about.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Right, well, miigwech .
Thank you, miss Debbie, and I'mexcited to have future
conversations with you.
Harold, I know, will be joiningus for those conversations and
I know he has really greatquestions, and so I think that
we'll just have some moreconversations to come.
So thank you, listeners, and ifyou do have questions, you can
(34:05):
message, you can reach out to usideas of topics, and those are
always welcomed here.
Ps, looking at the role of justemotion and happiness and
opening it up to other cultures,other beliefs, other theories,
is something that can maybe helpus get to that next level of
(34:29):
our understanding and how we canachieve a good way of living.
Miigwech, miigwech.
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