July 15, 2024 • 46 mins
Can understanding the psychology behind forgiveness mend your most strained relationships? Join us on "Psychologist Say" with Harold and me, Dr. Tami, as we unlock the secrets to forgiving and being forgiven. We dive deep into the emotional labyrinth that makes forgiveness so elusive, despite its apparent simplicity. From the difficulty of expressing heartfelt apologies to recognizing the hidden roots of our pain, we break down why letting go is often harder than holding on.
Explore the art of communication and boundary-setting in relationships with us. We tackle the tough questions: When should you speak up, and when is it better to let things slide? Learn why assertiveness is key in preventing resentment, and how understanding individual sensitivities can strengthen your bonds. Our conversation also takes you through the nuances of friendly banter and the importance of sincere apologies in maintaining healthy connections.
Finally, discover strategies for letting go, especially when forgiveness feels unattainable. We discuss the emotional toll of holding onto anger and offer ways to find peace by adjusting expectations. Learn how to accept people as they are and develop empathy for those who struggle with accountability. Whether it's dealing with a difficult colleague, a family member, or a friend, we provide insights to help you release emotional burdens and build more resilient, fulfilling relationships.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The following is a series of candid conversations.
The content is intended forinformational purposes only and
is not a substitute for seekinghelp from a mental health care
professional.
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HelloDrTammycom.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Bonjour and welcome to Psychologist Say, a podcast
where I talk about thepsychology of everyday living.
I'm your host, Dr Tammy, andI'm joined today by my co-host,
Harold.
How are you doing today, Harold?
Speaker 1 (00:35):
I'm doing great.
Hopefully everyone out there isdoing great as well.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Oh yes, our listeners .
Thank you.
If you're new to the podcast,we're so happy you checked us
out.
If you've been following us, wedefinitely appreciate you.
Today we are going to talkabout forgiveness.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Yep.
Forgiveness is a pretty goodtopic.
I think a lot of people wouldbe pretty interested in this one
.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
I would say every, I mean everyone.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Yeah, okay, right, I mean everyone, yeah, right.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
I would honestly predict every single person out
there can relate in some way tohaving to either say I'm sorry,
seek forgiveness ask or maybewant to ask for forgiveness from
somebody else.
Right for forgiveness fromsomebody else, and I think that,
(01:28):
on the other hand, everybodyhas been in a position where
they would love for someone tosay sorry and ask for
forgiveness, and so those arethe things we're going to talk
about today in terms of some ofthe psychological issues and
concerns that can come up thatcould really block somebody from
just doing a kind of apologythat maybe could help somebody
(01:49):
give forgiveness.
And then also when sometimes wemay, just as human beings have
to choose forgiveness.
So there's some layers heretoday and I want to get you
thinking, because I know youreally like to.
I can already see, if you guyscould, if there was a video
Harold's boy.
He's giving me this look.
He's kind of like oh boy, Ialready know his brain's going.
(02:13):
What's happening for you rightnow, harold?
Speaker 1 (02:15):
I guess, when I think of forgiveness, I think about
how sometimes we could be in aplace where we're hurting in a
way, and some of that hurt isbecause we can't forgive
somebody who's done wrong to us.
When I think of forgiveness,that's where my mind initially
goes.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
And being able to forgive.
It comes from a place of hurt,right.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
There's a hurt, there's something that was
either said or something thatwas done.
A hurt.
There's something that waseither said or something that
was done, something that hurtyou psychologically, physically,
emotionally, spiritually.
There are all these differentlevels of where that hurt can
come from.
Sometimes even, as humans, wedon't even know for sure.
(03:04):
Sometimes we just know we'rehurt, and that can make it hard
to even sometimes understand.
What kind of an apology am Iseeking when maybe I'm not 100%
sure where my hurt is comingfrom?
Have I spent a lot of timeexamining how I get hurt, what
(03:24):
things hurt me most, and is thatsomething that I'm even aware
of, and am I able to communicatethat to somebody who has hurt
me?
Yeah, oh man, that's kind ofsome deep stuff, that's some
deep stuff, I mean, and that'swhy we're doing this on
psychologist's sake.
This isn't just about let'sforgive and yeah, it's tough.
(03:47):
It takes humility to say I'msorry.
I'm really taking this from adeeper level because I want our
listeners to engage in this kindof conversation with us,
because these are the toughconversations that we really
don't have with ourselves havewith ourselves Whenever we're
looking for forgiveness, likehow do you like?
Speaker 1 (04:05):
I guess I want somebody to come tell me I'm
sorry, I'm sorry, I did this toyou.
Okay, but how do I, how do Iget someone to even approach me
in that way?
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Can we?
Speaker 1 (04:16):
be that direct, Can we be like?
Speaker 2 (04:28):
tell me.
Tell me you're sorry, you surecan.
Okay, that doesn't mean it willbe genuine, no, but that is
something that some people seek.
They're more confrontational.
They're more able to speak whatthey need.
So a lot of how we deal withforgiveness and I'm sorry's or
apologizing has to do with ourcommunication style and how we
(04:49):
get shit done.
So there are many people whowould love to have an apology
but would never tell the person.
They're just hoping it happenssomeday.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Happens like naturally in a way.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Wouldn't that be best .
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Yeah, I would think so.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
I would think 100% of the time we would want that to
happen, naturally.
Yet I think a lot of theresearch shows that's not the
way people are functioning.
It turns out saying I'm sorryis very difficult, and that's
why I'm going on a deeper level,because examining why this is
(05:25):
so hard when it seems so damneasy it's two words.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Yeah, it seems easy.
But I mean, I've been in aposition before where I've done
something wrong and I've had tosay I'm sorry, and that could be
.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
And did you just do it naturally or did it take some
?
You know?
Speaker 1 (05:42):
A little push.
Usually a little bit of both, Iguess Sometimes that happens
naturally.
Sometimes I need a little push.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Sure, okay.
So I would think what happensis, if it's something maybe
minor, that we consider a minorinsult, or we didn't totally
damage somebody, we didn't.
You know, it's something thatit's easier for me to say I'm
sorry that I ate your pizza.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Oh, yeah, you know, right, that's easy.
Yeah, that's an easy one, forsure.
Okay.
But if it happens where likesay I'm, maybe I act a certain
way that I shouldn't have, maybeI've done something I shouldn't
have done, and you know, sayingsorry in those situations is a
little more difficult.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
And why?
Speaker 1 (06:29):
do you think that is Well the severity of the issue,
I suppose, or maybe well,sometimes it's the timing too.
Sometimes it's hard to sayapologize when things happen so
quickly.
You know what I mean.
Like hmm.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
And yet you would like.
It almost seemscounterintuitive to wait.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Yeah, it does, Because you should try to.
It's easier to just let it outand then at least there's a
little bit of relief there frombeing the person that's
apologizing.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
You would think right , that's what I just said.
It's easy, but now you're going.
Oh whoa.
No, this is actually hard.
Otherwise, I think our wholeworld would be a much more
peaceful place if we couldacknowledge where we've stepped
on somebody's toes.
We've let our ego get in theway.
We've tried to make judgment.
We've tried to enforce control,say our part on what we believe
(07:24):
or don't believe.
Really, we want to exert powerand control over somebody First.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
you mentioned acknowledgement right, so
sometimes that could be the moredifficult part If you're
seeking an apology.
Sometimes the person thattrespassed against you they're
not even aware that they did it.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
The transgressor.
These are the situations where,for our listeners, go ahead and
bring up a situation in yourmind, because I know you're all
thinking of one.
I have several running throughmy mind and Harold's bringing up
a very good point what if weassume they know?
But now we're wondering if wedon't even know why they were
(08:09):
mad.
Yeah.
They hurt me, but do they knowthat I'm mad?
Do they know they hurt me?
Do they know what they've done?
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Yeah, there's been a lot of situations in my life
where that was absolutely thecase.
They have no idea that I'mupset, or they have no idea that
what they did was wrong.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Because they can't read your mind, and so most
times I mean, have you ever been, you know, just really
surprised when somebody says, oh, that, just that hurt my
feelings, and you look and think, oh gosh, I hadn't, I didn't
know, I did that.
So when it becomes like abigger situation where we're
seeking and we want somebody tosay, I'm sorry we may wait on
(08:52):
that wish for years, oh yeah.
And we may grow in our ownanger or sadness or feeling
resentful.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Anger even yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Oh yeah, and that can go on for years.
And what if this person had noidea that they hurt you?
And then there's a division, ora divide or this unsaid hurt.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
That's just kind of like festering, festering.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Yeah, and that's where I think when you first
said well, can you just walk upto somebody and say you know?
Hey, man, I think you need toapologize to me.
I'm going.
Yes, do that, Because that atleast allows a conversation
between oh you're right, youknow, versus what the hell are
you talking about?
I don't remember hurting you,but that ability to confront
(09:51):
somebody is a personality styleof I need to get this taken care
of.
I can't avoid this.
I can't be passive.
I cannot expect that they evenknow.
I don't even know if they know.
So there are personalities thatare like that.
They'll come up and say we needto talk because you did
(10:13):
something and you're acting asif you didn't, and I can't
function that way.
So let's talk about this, andwhat that can do is then get
that clarification of are youaware of what you did or what
you said, that that hurt me andI'm pissed, or I'm mad, or I
(10:34):
feel resentful, or I feel likeyou know.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
I've been in that situation as well.
I mean, I've been in prettymuch every little situation we
mentioned here and you mentionedbefore.
Our listeners probably have aswell.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Our listeners have been through all of these.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
And they've been on both sides.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Yeah, and it's difficult to gauge.
Sometimes it's difficult like,okay, I'm suddenly offended by
something somebody said, butit's like, should I even speak
up about this?
I'm not sure if it's even worthit on the person in the
situation.
You know, because you know you,you choose your battles pick
your battles.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
That's exactly yeah, so I you know I think in those
situations I want people tothink about um, how do I even
like little things if it'sbothering me enough?
Uh, can I be more assertive?
And because sometimes, manytimes, we rationalize, not
(11:29):
sticking up for ourselves Like,oh, I'm going to let that slide.
Oh, boy, that sarcasm soundslike there's some truth behind
what you're telling me, or boy?
What you just said, reallydidn't sound like it was working
in my favor, but I'm going tolet that go, Let it go yeah.
Now, if you continually do thatand if this is somebody you care
(11:52):
about, then guess what'shappening again?
Speaker 1 (11:55):
It's going to repeat.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
It's going to come on more and more, and guess how
many times you're going toconfront it.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Zero.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Zero.
Zero, because the more we letsomething slide with a certain
person, the more comfortablethey become and the harder it is
to confront them on.
Hey, you know, when you teaseme about my like, maybe somebody
teases somebody about theirweight, like, oh, boy, you're
getting, you're picking up someweight, or boy, your shirt looks
kind of tight.
You know, these like meanspirited jokes and if they keep
(12:27):
coming and it's not addressed,then they're basically saying,
oh, you're okay with this.
So this is yeah, so it's likereinforcing that.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Depending on the person.
Like, say, if it's a friendsaying those jokes, depending on
the friend, like if it's alifelong friend, those kinds of
jokes kind that's banter that'sbanter.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Yes, that's like friendly.
That's something, though, Iwould again have to say.
Is that a shared expectation ofthe and and is that something
we know about each other?
Do I give and dish as much asyou do?
Yeah and are we?
Have we established that we'reokay with this?
Speaker 1 (13:06):
Okay, but when establishing that it doesn't
have to be said, it could justbe kind of Felt yes, unsaid,
yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
And I think in those situations, that's where we're
not seeking forgiveness, we'renot feeling resentful, yeah,
we're not feeling like cut bywhat they said, because this is
my friend and this is banter,yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
It's fun usually.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
And I enjoy it and and I do think that friends go.
You know they break that upsometimes and they go one step
further than you and you mightgive them a look or go.
Whoa.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
You notice the seriousness.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
You can feel that shift in the energy, and that's
a good time to go.
Oh whoa, you went too far there.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Or the friend may then back with something a
little bit meaner, and thenthey're like oh, I'm just joking
, I'm just joking, but I think Imean.
I felt the seriousness in thattoo, even though the jokes
weren't directed at me.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Right, and that's the shift in the mood and that's
what I want to talk about, withapologizing and saying I'm'm
sorry and giving forgiveness.
So when somebody has enoughpower or empowerment to say, you
know, I just really didn't likethe way you said that, and then
(14:41):
the person on the receiving endwhat they just did was minimize
that.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Yes, yeah, or they're displacing it somehow they're
making it something else.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
They're saying well, you shouldn't feel that way,
because I was joking, yeah, yeah, okay.
So basically they're minimizingand instead of saying, oh wow,
thank you for letting me knowthat, or hey, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Yeah, my bad, I shouldn't have maybe I shouldn't
have worded that.
My bad yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
But instead and that's something that we need to
learn about when we appalledwhen somebody is courageous
enough to confront us on ouractions, even if we're teasing
or we're this is where a mature,healthy and this is where we're
all striving to be I think wewant to be able to go.
(15:32):
Oh my bad.
But then we get defensive, wefeel guilt, we may even feel
some shame for hurting ourfriend, so instead we don't want
to feel that.
So then we minimize whatthey're feeling to protect
ourselves from our own behavior.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Now that's.
I've never heard a claim thatway.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Now think about how often we do that to each other
as humans.
Oh, come on, stop crying around, we're just having right.
Oh, come on, I'm just teasing,you know.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Yeah, but I mean, at the same time there's the
situations where someone is kindof taking things a little too
hard.
That does happen too, sothere's a kind of taking things
a little too hard.
That does happen too, sothere's a kind of nuance within
the situation, I guess.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Well, and one thing to think about is that's that
person's personality.
Do you respect that?
So if somebody is takingsomething too hard, somebody may
be tackling an open wound thatthey're not seeing there, so
that again could be minimizingan open wound that they're not
seeing there, so that's againcould be minimizing.
(16:34):
Like well, this kind of banteris really I feel like you're
getting hyper emotional oryou're being hypersensitive.
Again.
That's kind of taking it awayfrom what about what I'm saying
is bothering you instead oftrying to understand.
It's kind of most times whenindividuals get upset, they have
a big bleeding wound that wecan't see, and so when we're
(16:58):
hurting them we don't realizewe're pressing right into that
wound.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
And that internal wound yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Yep, and so we can't understand why they're reacting
in such a what we would considerhyper emotional or
hypersensitive.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
There's like a blind spot there.
Yes, hyper-emotional orhyper-sensitive?
Speaker 2 (17:12):
There's like a blind spot there.
Yes, and everybody has them,yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Right, because we don't know everything about
everybody, and there's Even ourclosest people to us.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Right.
And so think how often that canhappen in life, in work
settings, in relationships withpeople that are longtime friends
, with our family, where wecould be pressing into this
wound and really minimizing itinstead of just saying okay,
listening, like, okay, you justtold me something.
(17:42):
Yeah, it doesn't feel good toput a mirror up and make me look
at myself for what I just did,but I need to pay attention to
what you're trying to tell me,not take what you're telling me
and shrink it so that I don'thave to look at myself or feel
guilty, bad or shame for havinghurt you in some way.
That's that piece of trying toget to that emotional maturity
(18:07):
where we put down our ego, or atleast we try to put it on the
side, we open up to being alittle vulnerable, we can admit
that we have weaknesses and wecan admit that there's a piece
of us that maybe does try tohurt people sometimes.
Maybe we're a little vindictive,in a way Of course I mean yes,
(18:29):
we're not perfect, yeah, but boy, it's tough to get called out
on it.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Oh, hell, yeah, it is .
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Because you feel embarrassing, right.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Absolutely yep.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
But the more that person on the receiving end puts
it back on the person hurtingthem.
It's like empowering for them,even if they don't get it.
I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Yeah, at least they're able to stand up for
themselves.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Yeah, and put it back on them, and so what we're
really seeking is forgiveness.
That's why we want the apology,because forgiveness can feel so
good.
It's like none of us want towalk around with this internal
anger that just grows and grows.
(19:16):
No.
I don't.
Internal anger resentment canactually physically make us sick
.
It can impact our mood, itcould impact our sleep, it could
impact our functioning in lifebecause our brain is focusing on
.
I can't find peace with this orI haven't been able to.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
Yeah, this thing's eating at me.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
This is eating at me.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
Yeah, and I can't let it go.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
And I'm not letting it go.
I'm holding on to resentmentbecause I've been hurt so bad
and I haven't received anapology.
And, like the research isshowing, it's very difficult
even when people know they're inthe wrong, not like a minor,
like a major.
I'm wrong, I hurt you, thething I said was horrible, you
(20:00):
know.
It's that and that is the thingthat people.
It's so tough for us to just dothat, without making excuses
for what we said, withoutminimizing the other person's
feelings.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Or qualifying the statement in some kind of way.
Well, I meant it like this, orI didn't mean it like yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
Or blaming, blaming or shaming.
I mean, that is one of the most, I think, pathological ways to
handle when you've hurt somebodyis to shift blame on them.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Mm-hmm, it's not my fault, it's yours or this
person's.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Well, I think that's you know.
You see it often when, ifyou're in a relationship with
somebody and they step out maybethere's infidelity or they and
then instead of saying I'm sorry, that wasn't right, that hurt
you, my behavior was wrong.
We committed to a solidmonogamous relationship and I
(20:58):
stepped out on that and that'smine.
I'm owning that.
I'm sorry for that, that I hurtyou with that Versus.
Well, you haven't beenattentive, you haven't talked
attentive.
Yeah, you haven't talked to mein months.
We haven't had been intimate,you don't.
(21:19):
I don't even think you like meanymore, so now you're upset,
you basically drove me toinfidelity.
Do you get the difference there?
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Oh yeah, for sure, that's a.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
And I went straight for a big gun here.
Yeah, that's a big one In anykind of relationship.
When somebody steps out andthey shift the blame on you,
that could be more hurtful thananything that takes something
and just blows it and say I'mnot going to accept
responsibility for my action.
(21:49):
I am going to tell you what youhave done.
Hopefully you think you made medo this.
It's your fault and I you know,and then that will help me deal
with my shame and my guilt if Ieven have any.
So now that's the next level.
Some people may do the blameand shame stuff not to avoid
guilt, just because they don'twant to acknowledge they did it.
(22:11):
It's not part of what they wantto agree to.
They could have some hurtfultraits, they could maybe have
lack of empathy, a little bit oflike narcissism.
It could be really hard to getan I'm sorry, a genuine I'm
sorry, from somebody who'sstruggling with very high ego
and cannot really relate to howtheir behavior impacts others.
(22:34):
So they can fake it a bit butgenuinely be able to relate.
So when we shift that blamethat is why I say that's to me
that's more pathological, it'ssomehow it's way more
manipulative.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
When you say pathological, what do you mean?
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Well, I think of that as more like heavy-duty,
clinical, like something thattakes much more self-awareness.
It's manipulative Pieces of ourbehavior.
And this is all of us.
I'm not saying we, you know, Ibelieve that we do this.
You know, as I know, we all dothis.
So we're all somewhatpathological oh, of course.
(23:25):
Okay person in every situation.
So it doesn't mean that you'rea horrible person for doing it.
Yet if that's the way you'regoing to acknowledge and go
through your life, that's whereI said that becomes more
pathological to me, because it'sabout avoiding accountability,
(23:48):
avoiding just yourresponsibility of just saying
yes, I did that, I'm sorry, oreven, yes, I did that.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Just that, not even I'm sorry.
Yeah, just the acknowledgement.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Instead of yeah, I did that, but you.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
But you did something worse.
Yeah, or you made you drovethis.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Or you did this to me before.
I couldn't get over that.
You know, just a constantshifting of um responsibility.
This is all good stuff so yeah,it's great, yes this is why
we're doing this on.
Psychologists say this isn'tjust about forgiveness or saying
I'm sorry.
It's talking about the um, thepersonality, the psychology
(24:29):
behind it, and it's exploring itmore in detail of where some of
us could be really stuck, evenourselves or with somebody who
really just is struggling inthis area.
We could have a boss that maybehas never apologized.
We could have a parent that hasnever acknowledged that they
(24:51):
did some hurtful things duringour childhood.
So these are the kinds ofthings of course.
This is why this talk is foreverybody, and we've been on the
receiving end and we've been onthat end of I don't want to
apologize.
We've been.
You know, we've kind of shutdown a bit.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
As far as like if someone's in a situation where
they're experiencing thedisplacement of blame like
you're the one blaming.
If you're in a situation whereyou open up, like hey, this may
feel bad and they put it back onyou, how do you navigate
something like that?
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Oh, that's a really good.
So that is where you'reacknowledging and you can go.
Okay, wait, I just heard thison this podcast.
I just told you that by you,you don't like it when I get all
dressed up, you know, and we goout, you know.
This is say this is a coupleand I told you that I dress up
(25:49):
because it makes me feel good.
I'm not trying, you know, andyou say well, I just like you
better when you're not dressedup.
Shouldn't you feel good aboutthat?
I like you natural.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
So this is like yeah, yeah, there's some give and
take there, sure.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Right, but instead of just saying, okay, hold on, I
get what you're saying, that'sfair yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Right.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
I love the way you look naturally, but you know
what.
I need to be aware that youlike doing this.
This is part of yourpersonality and you're not doing
it to please me and you'redoing it to be you.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
So I get that, and sometimes I just don't know how
to shut my mouth sometimes.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
But what if you're in a situation where they won't
acknowledge that?
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Well, I kind of just demonstrated the way it could go
.
Yeah, it could go.
If you said, you know what, I'mgoing to speak up about this,
and then I think it's somethingthat you have to look at and
start to say, okay, based off ofwhat I'm hearing about how
difficult it can be to apologize, I'm going to start really
(26:56):
thinking about this person thatI need to hear things from and
trying to understand why it's sodifficult for them and try to
tap into that a bit.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Well, if you try to tap it into it but there's not
relent, I guess in a way orthey're not giving you what
you're looking for.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Well, and you also-.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Are those red flags, or should they-?
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Well, I would say, what you're, what's happening
too, is you got to think about.
Maybe this is the first timethat you're really trying to tap
into what's going on with you.
You know, I know I'm angry.
I know you do things to hurt me, but I'm you're not really ever
things to hurt me, but you'renot really ever.
You kind of always minimizewhatever I say, you blow it off.
(27:45):
You never give me what I'mlooking for.
So I'm going to just stop, andthe next time you do something
that hurts or offend me, I'mgoing to really just start to
look at you and start to wonder,like, what in your life has
made it so hard for you to beable to acknowledge when you've
hurt somebody?
Speaker 1 (27:58):
because this is a pattern and it could like maybe
step from childhood.
Maybe they experienced thingsin their childhood or whatever
it may be, all kinds ofsituations you could say uh, you
know what is it.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
is it hard for you to say sorry?
You could even say Be verystraightforward like that.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Can you say sorry?
Are you able to do it?
Speaker 2 (28:20):
And they could say well, I don't think I've done
anything wrong.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
That in itself would create an argument.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
So that's where I tell a lot of my patients I work
with.
I say, well, be careful on howmuch energy you waste on
something.
We only have so much energy.
People always say, oh, I'mgoing to live to 100.
I'm like, no, your body onlyhas so much energy.
And so picking an argumenttrying to get somebody to
believe they need to feelaccountable or sorry, is a waste
(28:48):
of your energy.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
I guess what I'm trying to get to is like at what
point do you just have to letgo, or do you ever let go At?
Speaker 2 (28:55):
what point do you just have to let go, or do you
ever let go?
Well, part of it is maybethere's acceptance of knowing
I've been with maybe this personor I've worked with this boss
for 20 years.
They've never acknowledged whenthey've been wrong.
I don't think they're going tostart now.
I have awareness of this andI'm still choosing to do what I
(29:18):
do with this person.
That's knowing I'm not a victim.
I'm choosing to be here, andthat can be so empowering for
many people.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
If you're choosing, to not change it up, the blame
stuff and the minimizing.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Well, you can call it what it is, too now.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
Yeah, you can walk away and go.
Oh boy, yeah, he just minimizedwhat I said.
But when you're talking tosomeone like that, sometimes
it's not like, like you said,they won't even acknowledge.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
they never think they're wrong in those kinds of
situations You're either goingto persevere through that
relationship, whether it be work, family, whatever.
A lot of that is kind ofacceptance of I would love to
change this person.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
What if we don't want to accept?
Speaker 2 (30:05):
Then what are you doing about it?
Because trying to convince themthey've hurt you and they keep
saying, but I haven't.
Or they give you bad apologies,like, well, I'm sorry if what I
said hurt you, I'm sorry ifyou're hurt by what I said.
That's not an apology.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
No.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
That's again like I'm sorry, you're hurt.
Yeah, blaming the personreceiving that what I said and
it hurt you.
So the difference between sothose are those.
If there are people that mayapologize very freely, but the
way they did it does not, it'snot genuine.
(30:44):
That's where you start to go.
Okay, this person has a problemwith apologizing.
There could be so manydifferent layers to why it could
be tough to just humblethemselves.
It could be tough to admit theydid something wrong.
It could be shame.
It could be I don't want tofeel any guilt, or it could be.
(31:06):
I can't imagine why that wouldhurt you and I really can't.
So I don't have empathy forthat.
So, no, I won't apologizeunless I truly know I did
something wrong.
Do you see how much this has todo with, like, the personality
of the person you're interactingwith?
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
Yeah, now what about forgiveness?
Because we did a lot aboutapologizing.
Now we're saying it's verytough To forgive someone else.
How do we forgive somebody,maybe, when they refuse to
apologize?
Speaker 1 (31:34):
I mean it depends on the situation.
Like, I guess, say, somebodydid one or two things to you
over the years, but for the mostpart their intentions are good
and whatnot.
Like for me, like I would justlet things go.
But if things were repetitiveit'd be a little different.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
And that's exactly.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
Very different actually.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
There you go, and that's exactly what I want our
listeners to think about.
You want to look at like howmany times has this happened in
this relationship?
How severe was the injury, whatthey did to me, how severe was
it?
How much did it hurt?
How many times does this happenand how many times has it been
(32:15):
severe?
What's the value of this personto me?
Speaker 1 (32:19):
happens and he throws you under the bus and he does
that every single time, likethat's something that I don't
(32:43):
think, especially if I was toconfront them about it and they
continue to do it, then at thatpoint that's unforgivable.
I guess I wouldn't be able toforgive them.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Okay, and then that's what can happen, too, when we
don't forgive.
We may move on, we may leave.
We may move on, we may leave.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
We may sever relationships, we may change
jobs, but before that there's alot of internal frustration.
Well at least for me, there is.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
And a lot of times that goes with you.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
Oh, after you leave the relationship, yeah, yeah,
think back on it.
It makes you feel negative,some kind of negative emotion.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
It definitely could.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
So that's where we start to look at forgiveness.
When do I forgive when Ihaven't even had an apology?
And I think there are so manypeople in this situation in life
where we hold on to resentment.
When we think of that person,we get sick, we get mad, we're
angry, we avoid them.
We may say mean things aboutthem, we may avoid people who
(33:43):
spend time with them because wedon't like them.
Look at how much time andeffort we can put into something
we thought we walked away fromand forgave.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
But it's lingering around.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
And that's the piece that can make people sick.
How do you truly look atsomebody and let go of that hurt
when they've never asked for it, but it's damaging you inside?
Speaker 1 (34:04):
How do you do it?
How do you let it go?
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Well, the part of that is looking at well, how
does it benefit me to hold on toit?
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Depending on the situation, it probably wouldn't
benefit you at all.
Like, how do you?
I mean, that's the firstthought you have.
So if you acknowledge thatthere is no benefit, that it's
only hurting me, right?
How?
What do we do after that?
Speaker 2 (34:26):
Part of it is how do I move forward from this?
How do I sometimes it's thatword acceptance looking at that
person and not saying anythingbad about them, not thinking
anything bad about them.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
That's easier said than done, though.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
But yet this is the part of that where we have to
grow up too.
So this is the piece of us ifwe're holding on to resentment
and we're not forgiving somebodybecause they didn't even ask
for it or maybe they don'tdeserve it, but it's consuming
our energy, time and space.
And then we need to then sayhow is this benefiting me?
(35:03):
And you said it's not, and Ithink most people would agree
with you.
That's a restart, saying okay,now how can I start to look at
this person and accept thatthat's who they are and has
nothing maybe it's not evenanything personal against me.
This person really struggleswith I'm sorry, so I can accept
them for that.
(35:24):
I can start to look at them andeven have some empathy for them
, because that must be miserable, to not be able to just
acknowledge where you've hurtsomebody.
So, what happened in his life orher life, I wonder.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
That pushed him towards having that kind of
personality.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
Sometimes I look at people and I think, gosh,
somebody really hurt you in thepast.
You know what I'm saying Versuslike why do you not trust me?
And then I have to sit andthink, geez, somebody really
hurt you in the past.
So it's like you're having atough time trusting me.
It's not all about me.
So I got to look at them interms of a way of you
continually hurt me.
(36:03):
It was tough for you to developtrust and be vulnerable enough,
but it sucks because I'm apsychologist.
So it's really hard for me tonot do this, not try to see
where this is coming from.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
I could see that's where you're going is trying to
see the other side of the coin.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
And for my own benefit.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Yeah, so it's beneficial for the person who's
hurting to kind of try to putthemselves in the aggressor
shoes, the transgressor shoes.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
And think you know, after this conversation it gives
you new insight into anytimeyou're in that situation.
You can observe it from thisperspective.
Now People have these invisiblebackpacks that they're carrying
.
I call them an open wound.
We don't know there's reasonsfor our actions, even when we're
(36:50):
assholes.
You know when we're mean, whenwe're jealous, when we're
hurtful, when we're, you know,just even trying to destroy
somebody.
You know through gossip orwhatever's going on.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
Yeah, Any kind of addictive behavior.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Yes, and it's always that there's so much hurt in
that person who's doing it, andit's hard when you're the person
getting hurt to see their hurt.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
Yeah, Assuming it's a normal person, they're probably
like there's kind of like maybesome torture inside of them.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Oh, of course.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
Or they've at least experienced that.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
Because people who are at complete peace with
themselves or have goodself-awareness, they feel pretty
content.
They're not out trying to bemean, destroy or hurt others on
purpose.
There are people in the worldwho could go oh my, I am sorry.
I'm sorry I did that.
There are definitely people whoare also good at apologizing.
(37:44):
It's just not the norm and Ithink part of it is our egos are
so big.
But I think when you're talkingabout like, how do we get there
, I think it's like well, what'sat stake for me?
What do I stand to lose by nottaking a good look in the mirror
and saying how can I get betterat acknowledging my faults when
(38:07):
I hurt somebody?
How can I tap in and feel thatmaybe that shame or that guilt
for hurting somebody and give agenuine I'm sorry?
Speaker 1 (38:17):
And you have to feel it right.
You have to feel those kinds ofemotions to kind of get through
, If you can.
Is that pathological or is thatlike psychopathy or something?
Speaker 2 (38:27):
Well, if you have narcissism, it could be very
difficult to have empathy forsomebody that you've hurt in
extreme form.
Okay, or if you're yes, ifyou're antisocial.
So these are things where ifsomebody has difficulty actually
expressing or feeling empathy,you know that's really hard for
(38:50):
them.
They can't fake it.
You know they can try to like,minic it or read the definition
of what it should look like.
You know what I mean.
So those are tough situationsbecause those individuals could
repeatedly hurt somebody andnever think it's.
They never ever really saysorry or think it was ever
really their fault.
And so those are some of thethings where it's like well,
(39:12):
that's a true.
If you decide to stay withsomebody or have a friend like
that and you go, well, that's atrue limitation of this person
I'm choosing to be friends with.
I don't just keep pushing,pushing, pushing change when
maybe there is no change.
Maybe I got to accept that thisis that piece of my friend.
That's really sucked.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
This is who they are.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
This is who they are, and I could either walk away
from this friendship or I'vebeen in it for 20 years, so I'm
going to keep it going becausethis person, besides all that,
is worth something to me.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
There's like a net positive to the relationship,
like there's bad and there'sgood, but overall I want the
good, so I'll keep going withthe bad.
That kind of comes with it.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
And I have to and I want to understand where that's
coming from for this person.
Yeah, you can do that.
Well, there's some people thatsay well, they've just always
been like that, and that couldbe a rude boss.
It could be somebody who sayshurtful things all the time.
People are like, well, that'sjust the way they are, and so a
(40:14):
lot of people have just come toaccept them.
And those are those momentswhere when you got to choose.
Every person has to choose.
Yeah.
I mean just think how easy.
How many people are like oh Iwish you would just leave that
person.
They're not good enough for you.
There's no way this, whateveris going on, that individual is
choosing to be with somebody whomaybe has no empathy for them
(40:39):
Sounds terrible and we're hopingI mean most people I think it's
looking at I can have empathy.
I do feel sorry, I feel bad,but I feel so bad for me to
acknowledge that out loudbecause then I have a lot of
shame, so I'd rather kind of not.
Yeah, hide away from Just hideaway from oh my gosh, some
(40:59):
people.
It's more about once you say it, you actually did it, and then
it feels, more real to them.
maybe it's very real, and so itreally has to do with building
yourself up to be comfortable totalk about things that you've
done to hurt people, and thennow everybody the listeners.
The next chance you have anopportunity to let somebody know
(41:23):
.
There are so many things thatyou can do, to start to say what
you need and then to observe ifthis person can give you what
you need.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
Yeah, yeah.
So say something and hopefullyyou know things will work out in
the end, but there's a chancethey might not be receptive to
it.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
Right and that sometimes that really sucks.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
Yeah, yeah, I would imagine.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
Well, I think, you know, this was a really good.
I mean, really, we only touchedon it's a piece of this, but it
really got us talking about.
We're human.
You know this is tough.
We don't like to be wrong, wedon't like to humble ourselves.
We want to.
You know, we want to think wemake good decisions.
And it does suck when you hurtsomebody and you have to call
(42:12):
yourself out on that.
But there's a book that I'mgoing to.
It's called Sorry, Sorry, Sorry.
The Case for Good Apologies.
I haven't read it.
This is one that just came up,so I want to at least give you
guys another resource, becauseso much today we could have
talked about, but I do want tolist off.
In this book they said thereare six steps to a great apology
(42:34):
.
Okay, so one is to just sayyou're sorry, Not that you
regret it, and not that you'redevastated because that's
turning about you.
Second, say what it is thatyou're apologizing for.
Be specific.
Speaker 1 (42:50):
Yep, I'm sorry I broke your bike or something
like that, yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
Right, I'm sorry I stole your car.
Yeah, I'm sorry I stole moneyfrom you.
You know these kind of boom,boom, boom, specific.
Next, show that you understandwhy it was bad.
Take ownership.
Show you understand why youcaused hurt.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
So that'd be like, say the boss example Ownership
Show you understand why youcaused hurt.
So that'd be like, say the bossexample Like I shouldn't have
done that because it hurts yourcareer or your position in the
company, something like that.
Speaker 2 (43:26):
Exactly, I made you stay late.
You told me your child had anevent.
I said I need you tonight.
Anyway, I'm sorry that I putour company's value over your
family's, so it's ownership.
I did that.
I asked you to stay, eventhough you told me what was
valuable to you.
I let you know, basically, ifyou like your job, this is
(43:50):
valuable and I'm going to saythat wasn't a very good leader,
it wasn't good for me, but itworked because I got you to stay
and I'm sorry.
So these wasn't a very goodleader, I wasn't good for me,
but it worked because I got youto stay and I'm sorry.
Right, so these apologies, theytake some work.
Next one don't make excuses.
So this is where you know.
I think I gave a really goodexample of I stepped out on this
relationship but dang, you knowwe haven't been intimate, you
(44:10):
haven't been talking to me, Idon't even think you like me.
So, of course, I went and foundsomebody else, and how dare you
get upset with me for that?
Next, say why it won't happenagain, but also, what steps are
you going to take that preventsit from happening again?
Speaker 1 (44:28):
Oof, that's an even tougher one, I think.
I mean, like I said, dependingon the situation.
Speaker 2 (44:33):
Well, let's say it's again, we'll go to a friendship.
Basically, maybe, this onefriend is constantly left out of
a gathering every now and again.
And then they're saying why do?
Why wasn't I invited?
Oh gosh, you know, sorry, Ithought it just was an accident,
or we didn't think you wantedto come, because you always say
(44:53):
no, so we just didn't, you know.
Well, that really hurt.
I felt left out.
I mean, even though I can'talways go, I still want to be
invited.
And then so now this is wherewe could say okay, you know what
I'm going to do.
Better, this won't happen again.
I'm going to make sure thatyou're invited, even if I think
(45:13):
you won't come.
I'll make sure that you'reinvited, even if I think you
won't come.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
I'll make sure to text you a week ahead of time.
I'm going to text.
Speaker 2 (45:20):
I'm going to give you a call, if I can.
I'm going to tell the othergirls to reach out to you.
This is what I'm going to dobecause I just heard that this
hurts you.
Speaker 1 (45:28):
And these are the steps someone would take to
avoid that.
Speaker 2 (45:31):
And then the last one that they say is if it's
relevant, make reparations.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
So if you can do that , so like I stole money from you
, I'm sorry I won't do it again.
I'm working on it.
Here's the money back.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (45:47):
Okay, those are pretty informative steps.
Speaker 2 (45:50):
I think you know this is at least giving our
listeners something to you know,something concrete to try to
work on when you're looking.
And the book I think that wouldbe a great read, just so we can
start understanding ourselves.
Because if we don't know wherewe're struggling with I'm sorry,
(46:11):
or we don't understand why,it's even hard for us to forgive
, or maybe we forgive too soonor maybe we rationalize.
Either way, it's going to helpus understand ourselves better.
Therefore, we'll be able tounderstand those around us a
little bit better and howcomplex something that seems
really easy can be.
(46:32):
Miigwech PS.
When in doubt, just say I'msorry.
The following is a series of candid conversations.
The content is intended forinformational purposes only and
is not a substitute for seekinghelp from a mental health care
professional.
To learn more info regardingadditional disclaimers, privacy
policies and terms andconditions, please visit
HelloDrTammycom.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Bonjour and welcome to Psychologist Say, a podcast
where I talk about thepsychology of everyday living.
I'm your host, Dr Tammy, andI'm joined today by my co-host,
Harold.
How are you doing today, Harold?
Speaker 1 (00:35):
I'm doing great.
Hopefully everyone out there isdoing great as well.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Oh yes, our listeners .
Thank you.
If you're new to the podcast,we're so happy you checked us
out.
If you've been following us, wedefinitely appreciate you.
Today we are going to talkabout forgiveness.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Yep.
Forgiveness is a pretty goodtopic.
I think a lot of people wouldbe pretty interested in this one
.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
I would say every, I mean everyone.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Yeah, okay, right, I mean everyone, yeah, right.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
I would honestly predict every single person out
there can relate in some way tohaving to either say I'm sorry,
seek forgiveness ask or maybewant to ask for forgiveness from
somebody else.
Right for forgiveness fromsomebody else, and I think that,
(01:28):
on the other hand, everybodyhas been in a position where
they would love for someone tosay sorry and ask for
forgiveness, and so those arethe things we're going to talk
about today in terms of some ofthe psychological issues and
concerns that can come up thatcould really block somebody from
just doing a kind of apologythat maybe could help somebody
(01:49):
give forgiveness.
And then also when sometimes wemay, just as human beings have
to choose forgiveness.
So there's some layers heretoday and I want to get you
thinking, because I know youreally like to.
I can already see, if you guyscould, if there was a video
Harold's boy.
He's giving me this look.
He's kind of like oh boy, Ialready know his brain's going.
(02:13):
What's happening for you rightnow, harold?
Speaker 1 (02:15):
I guess, when I think of forgiveness, I think about
how sometimes we could be in aplace where we're hurting in a
way, and some of that hurt isbecause we can't forgive
somebody who's done wrong to us.
When I think of forgiveness,that's where my mind initially
goes.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
And being able to forgive.
It comes from a place of hurt,right.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
There's a hurt, there's something that was
either said or something thatwas done.
A hurt.
There's something that waseither said or something that
was done, something that hurtyou psychologically, physically,
emotionally, spiritually.
There are all these differentlevels of where that hurt can
come from.
Sometimes even, as humans, wedon't even know for sure.
(03:04):
Sometimes we just know we'rehurt, and that can make it hard
to even sometimes understand.
What kind of an apology am Iseeking when maybe I'm not 100%
sure where my hurt is comingfrom?
Have I spent a lot of timeexamining how I get hurt, what
(03:24):
things hurt me most, and is thatsomething that I'm even aware
of, and am I able to communicatethat to somebody who has hurt
me?
Yeah, oh man, that's kind ofsome deep stuff, that's some
deep stuff, I mean, and that'swhy we're doing this on
psychologist's sake.
This isn't just about let'sforgive and yeah, it's tough.
(03:47):
It takes humility to say I'msorry.
I'm really taking this from adeeper level because I want our
listeners to engage in this kindof conversation with us,
because these are the toughconversations that we really
don't have with ourselves havewith ourselves Whenever we're
looking for forgiveness, likehow do you like?
Speaker 1 (04:05):
I guess I want somebody to come tell me I'm
sorry, I'm sorry, I did this toyou.
Okay, but how do I, how do Iget someone to even approach me
in that way?
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Can we?
Speaker 1 (04:16):
be that direct, Can we be like?
Speaker 2 (04:28):
tell me.
Tell me you're sorry, you surecan.
Okay, that doesn't mean it willbe genuine, no, but that is
something that some people seek.
They're more confrontational.
They're more able to speak whatthey need.
So a lot of how we deal withforgiveness and I'm sorry's or
apologizing has to do with ourcommunication style and how we
(04:49):
get shit done.
So there are many people whowould love to have an apology
but would never tell the person.
They're just hoping it happenssomeday.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Happens like naturally in a way.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Wouldn't that be best .
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Yeah, I would think so.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
I would think 100% of the time we would want that to
happen, naturally.
Yet I think a lot of theresearch shows that's not the
way people are functioning.
It turns out saying I'm sorryis very difficult, and that's
why I'm going on a deeper level,because examining why this is
(05:25):
so hard when it seems so damneasy it's two words.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Yeah, it seems easy.
But I mean, I've been in aposition before where I've done
something wrong and I've had tosay I'm sorry, and that could be
.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
And did you just do it naturally or did it take some
?
You know?
Speaker 1 (05:42):
A little push.
Usually a little bit of both, Iguess Sometimes that happens
naturally.
Sometimes I need a little push.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Sure, okay.
So I would think what happensis, if it's something maybe
minor, that we consider a minorinsult, or we didn't totally
damage somebody, we didn't.
You know, it's something thatit's easier for me to say I'm
sorry that I ate your pizza.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Oh, yeah, you know, right, that's easy.
Yeah, that's an easy one, forsure.
Okay.
But if it happens where likesay I'm, maybe I act a certain
way that I shouldn't have, maybeI've done something I shouldn't
have done, and you know, sayingsorry in those situations is a
little more difficult.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
And why?
Speaker 1 (06:29):
do you think that is Well the severity of the issue,
I suppose, or maybe well,sometimes it's the timing too.
Sometimes it's hard to sayapologize when things happen so
quickly.
You know what I mean.
Like hmm.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
And yet you would like.
It almost seemscounterintuitive to wait.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Yeah, it does, Because you should try to.
It's easier to just let it outand then at least there's a
little bit of relief there frombeing the person that's
apologizing.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
You would think right , that's what I just said.
It's easy, but now you're going.
Oh whoa.
No, this is actually hard.
Otherwise, I think our wholeworld would be a much more
peaceful place if we couldacknowledge where we've stepped
on somebody's toes.
We've let our ego get in theway.
We've tried to make judgment.
We've tried to enforce control,say our part on what we believe
(07:24):
or don't believe.
Really, we want to exert powerand control over somebody First.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
you mentioned acknowledgement right, so
sometimes that could be the moredifficult part If you're
seeking an apology.
Sometimes the person thattrespassed against you they're
not even aware that they did it.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
The transgressor.
These are the situations where,for our listeners, go ahead and
bring up a situation in yourmind, because I know you're all
thinking of one.
I have several running throughmy mind and Harold's bringing up
a very good point what if weassume they know?
But now we're wondering if wedon't even know why they were
(08:09):
mad.
Yeah.
They hurt me, but do they knowthat I'm mad?
Do they know they hurt me?
Do they know what they've done?
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Yeah, there's been a lot of situations in my life
where that was absolutely thecase.
They have no idea that I'mupset, or they have no idea that
what they did was wrong.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Because they can't read your mind, and so most
times I mean, have you ever been, you know, just really
surprised when somebody says, oh, that, just that hurt my
feelings, and you look and think, oh gosh, I hadn't, I didn't
know, I did that.
So when it becomes like abigger situation where we're
seeking and we want somebody tosay, I'm sorry we may wait on
(08:52):
that wish for years, oh yeah.
And we may grow in our ownanger or sadness or feeling
resentful.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
Anger even yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Oh yeah, and that can go on for years.
And what if this person had noidea that they hurt you?
And then there's a division, ora divide or this unsaid hurt.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
That's just kind of like festering, festering.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Yeah, and that's where I think when you first
said well, can you just walk upto somebody and say you know?
Hey, man, I think you need toapologize to me.
I'm going.
Yes, do that, Because that atleast allows a conversation
between oh you're right, youknow, versus what the hell are
you talking about?
I don't remember hurting you,but that ability to confront
(09:51):
somebody is a personality styleof I need to get this taken care
of.
I can't avoid this.
I can't be passive.
I cannot expect that they evenknow.
I don't even know if they know.
So there are personalities thatare like that.
They'll come up and say we needto talk because you did
(10:13):
something and you're acting asif you didn't, and I can't
function that way.
So let's talk about this, andwhat that can do is then get
that clarification of are youaware of what you did or what
you said, that that hurt me andI'm pissed, or I'm mad, or I
(10:34):
feel resentful, or I feel likeyou know.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
I've been in that situation as well.
I mean, I've been in prettymuch every little situation we
mentioned here and you mentionedbefore.
Our listeners probably have aswell.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Our listeners have been through all of these.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
And they've been on both sides.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Yeah, and it's difficult to gauge.
Sometimes it's difficult like,okay, I'm suddenly offended by
something somebody said, butit's like, should I even speak
up about this?
I'm not sure if it's even worthit on the person in the
situation.
You know, because you know you,you choose your battles pick
your battles.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
That's exactly yeah, so I you know I think in those
situations I want people tothink about um, how do I even
like little things if it'sbothering me enough?
Uh, can I be more assertive?
And because sometimes, manytimes, we rationalize, not
(11:29):
sticking up for ourselves Like,oh, I'm going to let that slide.
Oh, boy, that sarcasm soundslike there's some truth behind
what you're telling me, or boy?
What you just said, reallydidn't sound like it was working
in my favor, but I'm going tolet that go, Let it go yeah.
Now, if you continually do thatand if this is somebody you care
(11:52):
about, then guess what'shappening again?
Speaker 1 (11:55):
It's going to repeat.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
It's going to come on more and more, and guess how
many times you're going toconfront it.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Zero.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Zero.
Zero, because the more we letsomething slide with a certain
person, the more comfortablethey become and the harder it is
to confront them on.
Hey, you know, when you teaseme about my like, maybe somebody
teases somebody about theirweight, like, oh, boy, you're
getting, you're picking up someweight, or boy, your shirt looks
kind of tight.
You know, these like meanspirited jokes and if they keep
(12:27):
coming and it's not addressed,then they're basically saying,
oh, you're okay with this.
So this is yeah, so it's likereinforcing that.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Depending on the person.
Like, say, if it's a friendsaying those jokes, depending on
the friend, like if it's alifelong friend, those kinds of
jokes kind that's banter that'sbanter.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Yes, that's like friendly.
That's something, though, Iwould again have to say.
Is that a shared expectation ofthe and and is that something
we know about each other?
Do I give and dish as much asyou do?
Yeah and are we?
Have we established that we'reokay with this?
Speaker 1 (13:06):
Okay, but when establishing that it doesn't
have to be said, it could justbe kind of Felt yes, unsaid,
yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
And I think in those situations, that's where we're
not seeking forgiveness, we'renot feeling resentful, yeah,
we're not feeling like cut bywhat they said, because this is
my friend and this is banter,yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:30):
It's fun usually.
Speaker 2 (13:31):
And I enjoy it and and I do think that friends go.
You know they break that upsometimes and they go one step
further than you and you mightgive them a look or go.
Whoa.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
You notice the seriousness.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
You can feel that shift in the energy, and that's
a good time to go.
Oh whoa, you went too far there.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Or the friend may then back with something a
little bit meaner, and thenthey're like oh, I'm just joking
, I'm just joking, but I think Imean.
I felt the seriousness in thattoo, even though the jokes
weren't directed at me.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Right, and that's the shift in the mood and that's
what I want to talk about, withapologizing and saying I'm'm
sorry and giving forgiveness.
So when somebody has enoughpower or empowerment to say, you
know, I just really didn't likethe way you said that, and then
(14:41):
the person on the receiving endwhat they just did was minimize
that.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Yes, yeah, or they're displacing it somehow they're
making it something else.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
They're saying well, you shouldn't feel that way,
because I was joking, yeah, yeah, okay.
So basically they're minimizingand instead of saying, oh wow,
thank you for letting me knowthat, or hey, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Yeah, my bad, I shouldn't have maybe I shouldn't
have worded that.
My bad yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
But instead and that's something that we need to
learn about when we appalledwhen somebody is courageous
enough to confront us on ouractions, even if we're teasing
or we're this is where a mature,healthy and this is where we're
all striving to be I think wewant to be able to go.
(15:32):
Oh my bad.
But then we get defensive, wefeel guilt, we may even feel
some shame for hurting ourfriend, so instead we don't want
to feel that.
So then we minimize whatthey're feeling to protect
ourselves from our own behavior.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Now that's.
I've never heard a claim thatway.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Now think about how often we do that to each other
as humans.
Oh, come on, stop crying around, we're just having right.
Oh, come on, I'm just teasing,you know.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Yeah, but I mean, at the same time there's the
situations where someone is kindof taking things a little too
hard.
That does happen too, sothere's a kind of taking things
a little too hard.
That does happen too, sothere's a kind of nuance within
the situation, I guess.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
Well, and one thing to think about is that's that
person's personality.
Do you respect that?
So if somebody is takingsomething too hard, somebody may
be tackling an open wound thatthey're not seeing there, so
that again could be minimizingan open wound that they're not
seeing there, so that's againcould be minimizing.
(16:34):
Like well, this kind of banteris really I feel like you're
getting hyper emotional oryou're being hypersensitive.
Again.
That's kind of taking it awayfrom what about what I'm saying
is bothering you instead oftrying to understand.
It's kind of most times whenindividuals get upset, they have
a big bleeding wound that wecan't see, and so when we're
(16:58):
hurting them we don't realizewe're pressing right into that
wound.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
And that internal wound yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Yep, and so we can't understand why they're reacting
in such a what we would considerhyper emotional or
hypersensitive.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
There's like a blind spot there.
Yes, hyper-emotional orhyper-sensitive?
Speaker 2 (17:12):
There's like a blind spot there.
Yes, and everybody has them,yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Right, because we don't know everything about
everybody, and there's Even ourclosest people to us.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Right.
And so think how often that canhappen in life, in work
settings, in relationships withpeople that are longtime friends
, with our family, where wecould be pressing into this
wound and really minimizing itinstead of just saying okay,
listening, like, okay, you justtold me something.
(17:42):
Yeah, it doesn't feel good toput a mirror up and make me look
at myself for what I just did,but I need to pay attention to
what you're trying to tell me,not take what you're telling me
and shrink it so that I don'thave to look at myself or feel
guilty, bad or shame for havinghurt you in some way.
That's that piece of trying toget to that emotional maturity
(18:07):
where we put down our ego, or atleast we try to put it on the
side, we open up to being alittle vulnerable, we can admit
that we have weaknesses and wecan admit that there's a piece
of us that maybe does try tohurt people sometimes.
Maybe we're a little vindictive,in a way Of course I mean yes,
(18:29):
we're not perfect, yeah, but boy, it's tough to get called out
on it.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Oh, hell, yeah, it is .
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Because you feel embarrassing, right.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Absolutely yep.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
But the more that person on the receiving end puts
it back on the person hurtingthem.
It's like empowering for them,even if they don't get it.
I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Yeah, at least they're able to stand up for
themselves.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Yeah, and put it back on them, and so what we're
really seeking is forgiveness.
That's why we want the apology,because forgiveness can feel so
good.
It's like none of us want towalk around with this internal
anger that just grows and grows.
(19:16):
No.
I don't.
Internal anger resentment canactually physically make us sick
.
It can impact our mood, itcould impact our sleep, it could
impact our functioning in lifebecause our brain is focusing on
.
I can't find peace with this orI haven't been able to.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
Yeah, this thing's eating at me.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
This is eating at me.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
Yeah, and I can't let it go.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
And I'm not letting it go.
I'm holding on to resentmentbecause I've been hurt so bad
and I haven't received anapology.
And, like the research isshowing, it's very difficult
even when people know they're inthe wrong, not like a minor,
like a major.
I'm wrong, I hurt you, thething I said was horrible, you
(20:00):
know.
It's that and that is the thingthat people.
It's so tough for us to just dothat, without making excuses
for what we said, withoutminimizing the other person's
feelings.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Or qualifying the statement in some kind of way.
Well, I meant it like this, orI didn't mean it like yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
Or blaming, blaming or shaming.
I mean, that is one of the most, I think, pathological ways to
handle when you've hurt somebodyis to shift blame on them.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Mm-hmm, it's not my fault, it's yours or this
person's.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Well, I think that's you know.
You see it often when, ifyou're in a relationship with
somebody and they step out maybethere's infidelity or they and
then instead of saying I'm sorry, that wasn't right, that hurt
you, my behavior was wrong.
We committed to a solidmonogamous relationship and I
(20:58):
stepped out on that and that'smine.
I'm owning that.
I'm sorry for that, that I hurtyou with that Versus.
Well, you haven't beenattentive, you haven't talked
attentive.
Yeah, you haven't talked to mein months.
We haven't had been intimate,you don't.
(21:19):
I don't even think you like meanymore, so now you're upset,
you basically drove me toinfidelity.
Do you get the difference there?
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Oh yeah, for sure, that's a.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
And I went straight for a big gun here.
Yeah, that's a big one In anykind of relationship.
When somebody steps out andthey shift the blame on you,
that could be more hurtful thananything that takes something
and just blows it and say I'mnot going to accept
responsibility for my action.
(21:49):
I am going to tell you what youhave done.
Hopefully you think you made medo this.
It's your fault and I you know,and then that will help me deal
with my shame and my guilt if Ieven have any.
So now that's the next level.
Some people may do the blameand shame stuff not to avoid
guilt, just because they don'twant to acknowledge they did it.
(22:11):
It's not part of what they wantto agree to.
They could have some hurtfultraits, they could maybe have
lack of empathy, a little bit oflike narcissism.
It could be really hard to getan I'm sorry, a genuine I'm
sorry, from somebody who'sstruggling with very high ego
and cannot really relate to howtheir behavior impacts others.
(22:34):
So they can fake it a bit butgenuinely be able to relate.
So when we shift that blamethat is why I say that's to me
that's more pathological, it'ssomehow it's way more
manipulative.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
When you say pathological, what do you mean?
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Well, I think of that as more like heavy-duty,
clinical, like something thattakes much more self-awareness.
It's manipulative Pieces of ourbehavior.
And this is all of us.
I'm not saying we, you know, Ibelieve that we do this.
You know, as I know, we all dothis.
So we're all somewhatpathological oh, of course.
(23:25):
Okay person in every situation.
So it doesn't mean that you'rea horrible person for doing it.
Yet if that's the way you'regoing to acknowledge and go
through your life, that's whereI said that becomes more
pathological to me, because it'sabout avoiding accountability,
(23:48):
avoiding just yourresponsibility of just saying
yes, I did that, I'm sorry, oreven, yes, I did that.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Just that, not even I'm sorry.
Yeah, just the acknowledgement.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Instead of yeah, I did that, but you.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
But you did something worse.
Yeah, or you made you drovethis.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Or you did this to me before.
I couldn't get over that.
You know, just a constantshifting of um responsibility.
This is all good stuff so yeah,it's great, yes this is why
we're doing this on.
Psychologists say this isn'tjust about forgiveness or saying
I'm sorry.
It's talking about the um, thepersonality, the psychology
(24:29):
behind it, and it's exploring itmore in detail of where some of
us could be really stuck, evenourselves or with somebody who
really just is struggling inthis area.
We could have a boss that maybehas never apologized.
We could have a parent that hasnever acknowledged that they
(24:51):
did some hurtful things duringour childhood.
So these are the kinds ofthings of course.
This is why this talk is foreverybody, and we've been on the
receiving end and we've been onthat end of I don't want to
apologize.
We've been.
You know, we've kind of shutdown a bit.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
As far as like if someone's in a situation where
they're experiencing thedisplacement of blame like
you're the one blaming.
If you're in a situation whereyou open up, like hey, this may
feel bad and they put it back onyou, how do you navigate
something like that?
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Oh, that's a really good.
So that is where you'reacknowledging and you can go.
Okay, wait, I just heard thison this podcast.
I just told you that by you,you don't like it when I get all
dressed up, you know, and we goout, you know.
This is say this is a coupleand I told you that I dress up
(25:49):
because it makes me feel good.
I'm not trying, you know, andyou say well, I just like you
better when you're not dressedup.
Shouldn't you feel good aboutthat?
I like you natural.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
So this is like yeah, yeah, there's some give and
take there, sure.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Right, but instead of just saying, okay, hold on, I
get what you're saying, that'sfair yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Right.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
I love the way you look naturally, but you know
what.
I need to be aware that youlike doing this.
This is part of yourpersonality and you're not doing
it to please me and you'redoing it to be you.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
So I get that, and sometimes I just don't know how
to shut my mouth sometimes.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
But what if you're in a situation where they won't
acknowledge that?
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Well, I kind of just demonstrated the way it could go
.
Yeah, it could go.
If you said, you know what, I'mgoing to speak up about this,
and then I think it's somethingthat you have to look at and
start to say, okay, based off ofwhat I'm hearing about how
difficult it can be to apologize, I'm going to start really
(26:56):
thinking about this person thatI need to hear things from and
trying to understand why it's sodifficult for them and try to
tap into that a bit.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Well, if you try to tap it into it but there's not
relent, I guess in a way orthey're not giving you what
you're looking for.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Well, and you also-.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Are those red flags, or should they-?
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Well, I would say, what you're, what's happening
too, is you got to think about.
Maybe this is the first timethat you're really trying to tap
into what's going on with you.
You know, I know I'm angry.
I know you do things to hurt me, but I'm you're not really ever
things to hurt me, but you'renot really ever.
You kind of always minimizewhatever I say, you blow it off.
(27:45):
You never give me what I'mlooking for.
So I'm going to just stop, andthe next time you do something
that hurts or offend me, I'mgoing to really just start to
look at you and start to wonder,like, what in your life has
made it so hard for you to beable to acknowledge when you've
hurt somebody?
Speaker 1 (27:58):
because this is a pattern and it could like maybe
step from childhood.
Maybe they experienced thingsin their childhood or whatever
it may be, all kinds ofsituations you could say uh, you
know what is it.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
is it hard for you to say sorry?
You could even say Be verystraightforward like that.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Can you say sorry?
Are you able to do it?
Speaker 2 (28:20):
And they could say well, I don't think I've done
anything wrong.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
That in itself would create an argument.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
So that's where I tell a lot of my patients I work
with.
I say, well, be careful on howmuch energy you waste on
something.
We only have so much energy.
People always say, oh, I'mgoing to live to 100.
I'm like, no, your body onlyhas so much energy.
And so picking an argumenttrying to get somebody to
believe they need to feelaccountable or sorry, is a waste
(28:48):
of your energy.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
I guess what I'm trying to get to is like at what
point do you just have to letgo, or do you ever let go At?
Speaker 2 (28:55):
what point do you just have to let go, or do you
ever let go?
Well, part of it is maybethere's acceptance of knowing
I've been with maybe this personor I've worked with this boss
for 20 years.
They've never acknowledged whenthey've been wrong.
I don't think they're going tostart now.
I have awareness of this andI'm still choosing to do what I
(29:18):
do with this person.
That's knowing I'm not a victim.
I'm choosing to be here, andthat can be so empowering for
many people.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
If you're choosing, to not change it up, the blame
stuff and the minimizing.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Well, you can call it what it is, too now.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
Yeah, you can walk away and go.
Oh boy, yeah, he just minimizedwhat I said.
But when you're talking tosomeone like that, sometimes
it's not like, like you said,they won't even acknowledge.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
they never think they're wrong in those kinds of
situations You're either goingto persevere through that
relationship, whether it be work, family, whatever.
A lot of that is kind ofacceptance of I would love to
change this person.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
What if we don't want to accept?
Speaker 2 (30:05):
Then what are you doing about it?
Because trying to convince themthey've hurt you and they keep
saying, but I haven't.
Or they give you bad apologies,like, well, I'm sorry if what I
said hurt you, I'm sorry ifyou're hurt by what I said.
That's not an apology.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
No.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
That's again like I'm sorry, you're hurt.
Yeah, blaming the personreceiving that what I said and
it hurt you.
So the difference between sothose are those.
If there are people that mayapologize very freely, but the
way they did it does not, it'snot genuine.
(30:44):
That's where you start to go.
Okay, this person has a problemwith apologizing.
There could be so manydifferent layers to why it could
be tough to just humblethemselves.
It could be tough to admit theydid something wrong.
It could be shame.
It could be I don't want tofeel any guilt, or it could be.
(31:06):
I can't imagine why that wouldhurt you and I really can't.
So I don't have empathy forthat.
So, no, I won't apologizeunless I truly know I did
something wrong.
Do you see how much this has todo with, like, the personality
of the person you're interactingwith?
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
Yeah, now what about forgiveness?
Because we did a lot aboutapologizing.
Now we're saying it's verytough To forgive someone else.
How do we forgive somebody,maybe, when they refuse to
apologize?
Speaker 1 (31:34):
I mean it depends on the situation.
Like, I guess, say, somebodydid one or two things to you
over the years, but for the mostpart their intentions are good
and whatnot.
Like for me, like I would justlet things go.
But if things were repetitiveit'd be a little different.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
And that's exactly.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
Very different actually.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
There you go, and that's exactly what I want our
listeners to think about.
You want to look at like howmany times has this happened in
this relationship?
How severe was the injury, whatthey did to me, how severe was
it?
How much did it hurt?
How many times does this happenand how many times has it been
(32:15):
severe?
What's the value of this personto me?
Speaker 1 (32:19):
happens and he throws you under the bus and he does
that every single time, likethat's something that I don't
(32:43):
think, especially if I was toconfront them about it and they
continue to do it, then at thatpoint that's unforgivable.
I guess I wouldn't be able toforgive them.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
Okay, and then that's what can happen, too, when we
don't forgive.
We may move on, we may leave.
We may move on, we may leave.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
We may sever relationships, we may change
jobs, but before that there's alot of internal frustration.
Well at least for me, there is.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
And a lot of times that goes with you.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
Oh, after you leave the relationship, yeah, yeah,
think back on it.
It makes you feel negative,some kind of negative emotion.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
It definitely could.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
So that's where we start to look at forgiveness.
When do I forgive when Ihaven't even had an apology?
And I think there are so manypeople in this situation in life
where we hold on to resentment.
When we think of that person,we get sick, we get mad, we're
angry, we avoid them.
We may say mean things aboutthem, we may avoid people who
(33:43):
spend time with them because wedon't like them.
Look at how much time andeffort we can put into something
we thought we walked away fromand forgave.
Speaker 1 (33:49):
But it's lingering around.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
And that's the piece that can make people sick.
How do you truly look atsomebody and let go of that hurt
when they've never asked for it, but it's damaging you inside?
Speaker 1 (34:04):
How do you do it?
How do you let it go?
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Well, the part of that is looking at well, how
does it benefit me to hold on toit?
Speaker 1 (34:12):
Depending on the situation, it probably wouldn't
benefit you at all.
Like, how do you?
I mean, that's the firstthought you have.
So if you acknowledge thatthere is no benefit, that it's
only hurting me, right?
How?
What do we do after that?
Speaker 2 (34:26):
Part of it is how do I move forward from this?
How do I sometimes it's thatword acceptance looking at that
person and not saying anythingbad about them, not thinking
anything bad about them.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
That's easier said than done, though.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
But yet this is the part of that where we have to
grow up too.
So this is the piece of us ifwe're holding on to resentment
and we're not forgiving somebodybecause they didn't even ask
for it or maybe they don'tdeserve it, but it's consuming
our energy, time and space.
And then we need to then sayhow is this benefiting me?
(35:03):
And you said it's not, and Ithink most people would agree
with you.
That's a restart, saying okay,now how can I start to look at
this person and accept thatthat's who they are and has
nothing maybe it's not evenanything personal against me.
This person really struggleswith I'm sorry, so I can accept
them for that.
(35:24):
I can start to look at them andeven have some empathy for them
, because that must be miserable, to not be able to just
acknowledge where you've hurtsomebody.
So, what happened in his life orher life, I wonder.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
That pushed him towards having that kind of
personality.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
Sometimes I look at people and I think, gosh,
somebody really hurt you in thepast.
You know what I'm saying Versuslike why do you not trust me?
And then I have to sit andthink, geez, somebody really
hurt you in the past.
So it's like you're having atough time trusting me.
It's not all about me.
So I got to look at them interms of a way of you
continually hurt me.
(36:03):
It was tough for you to developtrust and be vulnerable enough,
but it sucks because I'm apsychologist.
So it's really hard for me tonot do this, not try to see
where this is coming from.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
I could see that's where you're going is trying to
see the other side of the coin.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
And for my own benefit.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Yeah, so it's beneficial for the person who's
hurting to kind of try to putthemselves in the aggressor
shoes, the transgressor shoes.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
And think you know, after this conversation it gives
you new insight into anytimeyou're in that situation.
You can observe it from thisperspective.
Now People have these invisiblebackpacks that they're carrying
.
I call them an open wound.
We don't know there's reasonsfor our actions, even when we're
(36:50):
assholes.
You know when we're mean, whenwe're jealous, when we're
hurtful, when we're, you know,just even trying to destroy
somebody.
You know through gossip orwhatever's going on.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
Yeah, Any kind of addictive behavior.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
Yes, and it's always that there's so much hurt in
that person who's doing it, andit's hard when you're the person
getting hurt to see their hurt.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
Yeah, Assuming it's a normal person, they're probably
like there's kind of like maybesome torture inside of them.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Oh, of course.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
Or they've at least experienced that.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
Because people who are at complete peace with
themselves or have goodself-awareness, they feel pretty
content.
They're not out trying to bemean, destroy or hurt others on
purpose.
There are people in the worldwho could go oh my, I am sorry.
I'm sorry I did that.
There are definitely people whoare also good at apologizing.
(37:44):
It's just not the norm and Ithink part of it is our egos are
so big.
But I think when you're talkingabout like, how do we get there
, I think it's like well, what'sat stake for me?
What do I stand to lose by nottaking a good look in the mirror
and saying how can I get betterat acknowledging my faults when
(38:07):
I hurt somebody?
How can I tap in and feel thatmaybe that shame or that guilt
for hurting somebody and give agenuine I'm sorry?
Speaker 1 (38:17):
And you have to feel it right.
You have to feel those kinds ofemotions to kind of get through
, If you can.
Is that pathological or is thatlike psychopathy or something?
Speaker 2 (38:27):
Well, if you have narcissism, it could be very
difficult to have empathy forsomebody that you've hurt in
extreme form.
Okay, or if you're yes, ifyou're antisocial.
So these are things where ifsomebody has difficulty actually
expressing or feeling empathy,you know that's really hard for
(38:50):
them.
They can't fake it.
You know they can try to like,minic it or read the definition
of what it should look like.
You know what I mean.
So those are tough situationsbecause those individuals could
repeatedly hurt somebody andnever think it's.
They never ever really saysorry or think it was ever
really their fault.
And so those are some of thethings where it's like well,
(39:12):
that's a true.
If you decide to stay withsomebody or have a friend like
that and you go, well, that's atrue limitation of this person
I'm choosing to be friends with.
I don't just keep pushing,pushing, pushing change when
maybe there is no change.
Maybe I got to accept that thisis that piece of my friend.
That's really sucked.
Speaker 1 (39:31):
This is who they are.
Speaker 2 (39:32):
This is who they are, and I could either walk away
from this friendship or I'vebeen in it for 20 years, so I'm
going to keep it going becausethis person, besides all that,
is worth something to me.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
There's like a net positive to the relationship,
like there's bad and there'sgood, but overall I want the
good, so I'll keep going withthe bad.
That kind of comes with it.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
And I have to and I want to understand where that's
coming from for this person.
Yeah, you can do that.
Well, there's some people thatsay well, they've just always
been like that, and that couldbe a rude boss.
It could be somebody who sayshurtful things all the time.
People are like, well, that'sjust the way they are, and so a
(40:14):
lot of people have just come toaccept them.
And those are those momentswhere when you got to choose.
Every person has to choose.
Yeah.
I mean just think how easy.
How many people are like oh Iwish you would just leave that
person.
They're not good enough for you.
There's no way this, whateveris going on, that individual is
choosing to be with somebody whomaybe has no empathy for them
(40:39):
Sounds terrible and we're hopingI mean most people I think it's
looking at I can have empathy.
I do feel sorry, I feel bad,but I feel so bad for me to
acknowledge that out loudbecause then I have a lot of
shame, so I'd rather kind of not.
Yeah, hide away from Just hideaway from oh my gosh, some
(40:59):
people.
It's more about once you say it, you actually did it, and then
it feels, more real to them.
maybe it's very real, and so itreally has to do with building
yourself up to be comfortable totalk about things that you've
done to hurt people, and thennow everybody the listeners.
The next chance you have anopportunity to let somebody know
(41:23):
.
There are so many things thatyou can do, to start to say what
you need and then to observe ifthis person can give you what
you need.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
Yeah, yeah.
So say something and hopefullyyou know things will work out in
the end, but there's a chancethey might not be receptive to
it.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
Right and that sometimes that really sucks.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
Yeah, yeah, I would imagine.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
Well, I think, you know, this was a really good.
I mean, really, we only touchedon it's a piece of this, but it
really got us talking about.
We're human.
You know this is tough.
We don't like to be wrong, wedon't like to humble ourselves.
We want to.
You know, we want to think wemake good decisions.
And it does suck when you hurtsomebody and you have to call
(42:12):
yourself out on that.
But there's a book that I'mgoing to.
It's called Sorry, Sorry, Sorry.
The Case for Good Apologies.
I haven't read it.
This is one that just came up,so I want to at least give you
guys another resource, becauseso much today we could have
talked about, but I do want tolist off.
In this book they said thereare six steps to a great apology
(42:34):
.
Okay, so one is to just sayyou're sorry, Not that you
regret it, and not that you'redevastated because that's
turning about you.
Second, say what it is thatyou're apologizing for.
Be specific.
Speaker 1 (42:50):
Yep, I'm sorry I broke your bike or something
like that, yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
Right, I'm sorry I stole your car.
Yeah, I'm sorry I stole moneyfrom you.
You know these kind of boom,boom, boom, specific.
Next, show that you understandwhy it was bad.
Take ownership.
Show you understand why youcaused hurt.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
So that'd be like, say the boss example Ownership
Show you understand why youcaused hurt.
So that'd be like, say the bossexample Like I shouldn't have
done that because it hurts yourcareer or your position in the
company, something like that.
Speaker 2 (43:26):
Exactly, I made you stay late.
You told me your child had anevent.
I said I need you tonight.
Anyway, I'm sorry that I putour company's value over your
family's, so it's ownership.
I did that.
I asked you to stay, eventhough you told me what was
valuable to you.
I let you know, basically, ifyou like your job, this is
(43:50):
valuable and I'm going to saythat wasn't a very good leader,
it wasn't good for me, but itworked because I got you to stay
and I'm sorry.
So these wasn't a very goodleader, I wasn't good for me,
but it worked because I got youto stay and I'm sorry.
Right, so these apologies, theytake some work.
Next one don't make excuses.
So this is where you know.
I think I gave a really goodexample of I stepped out on this
relationship but dang, you knowwe haven't been intimate, you
(44:10):
haven't been talking to me, Idon't even think you like me.
So, of course, I went and foundsomebody else, and how dare you
get upset with me for that?
Next, say why it won't happenagain, but also, what steps are
you going to take that preventsit from happening again?
Speaker 1 (44:28):
Oof, that's an even tougher one, I think.
I mean, like I said, dependingon the situation.
Speaker 2 (44:33):
Well, let's say it's again, we'll go to a friendship.
Basically, maybe, this onefriend is constantly left out of
a gathering every now and again.
And then they're saying why do?
Why wasn't I invited?
Oh gosh, you know, sorry, Ithought it just was an accident,
or we didn't think you wantedto come, because you always say
(44:53):
no, so we just didn't, you know.
Well, that really hurt.
I felt left out.
I mean, even though I can'talways go, I still want to be
invited.
And then so now this is wherewe could say okay, you know what
I'm going to do.
Better, this won't happen again.
I'm going to make sure thatyou're invited, even if I think
(45:13):
you won't come.
I'll make sure that you'reinvited, even if I think you
won't come.
Speaker 1 (45:16):
I'll make sure to text you a week ahead of time.
I'm going to text.
Speaker 2 (45:20):
I'm going to give you a call, if I can.
I'm going to tell the othergirls to reach out to you.
This is what I'm going to dobecause I just heard that this
hurts you.
Speaker 1 (45:28):
And these are the steps someone would take to
avoid that.
Speaker 2 (45:31):
And then the last one that they say is if it's
relevant, make reparations.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
So if you can do that , so like I stole money from you
, I'm sorry I won't do it again.
I'm working on it.
Here's the money back.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (45:47):
Okay, those are pretty informative steps.
Speaker 2 (45:50):
I think you know this is at least giving our
listeners something to you know,something concrete to try to
work on when you're looking.
And the book I think that wouldbe a great read, just so we can
start understanding ourselves.
Because if we don't know wherewe're struggling with I'm sorry,
(46:11):
or we don't understand why,it's even hard for us to forgive
, or maybe we forgive too soonor maybe we rationalize.
Either way, it's going to helpus understand ourselves better.
Therefore, we'll be able tounderstand those around us a
little bit better and howcomplex something that seems
really easy can be.
(46:32):
Miigwech PS.
When in doubt, just say I'msorry.
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