June 10, 2024 • 36 mins
Can the fear of public speaking be more than just a nervous feeling? Discover how our brains can perceive an audience as a threat, leading to anxiety that can freeze even the most confident individuals. Join us on this episode of Psychologist Say with our special guest, Harold, as we unpack the psychological mechanisms behind public speaking anxiety. Learn about performance anxiety, social anxiety disorder, and the roles of the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems in managing stress. Harold shares his journey of overcoming this common fear, offering hope and practical advice for anyone struggling to communicate effectively in front of an audience.
Ever thought extroverts naturally excel at public speaking? Think again. We challenge this common misconception by exploring how public speaking anxiety impacts both introverts and extroverts. From the fear of being judged to the dynamics of how different personality types find comfort in social settings, this conversation highlights the complexity of human behavior. Gain valuable insights into how understanding these traits can help manage social anxiety and improve interpersonal relationships. Whether you're an introvert or an extrovert, you'll find relatable experiences and expert advice that emphasize the importance of recognizing and addressing these fears.
Ready to tackle your public speaking anxiety head-on? We'll arm you with practical strategies and emphasize the importance of practice in overcoming this challenge. Harold and I discuss when it's crucial to seek mental health support, especially if anxiety significantly impairs your daily life. By recalling past successes and sharing personal stories, we aim to boost your confidence and motivate you to continue making progress. Download the episode and follow us on social media for more insightful content that encourages you to engage in meaningful conversations and conquer your fears one step at a time.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The following is a series of candid conversations.
The content is intended forinformational purposes only and
is not a substitute for seekinghelp from a mental health care
professional.
To learn more info regardingadditional disclaimers, privacy
policies and terms andconditions, please visit
HelloDrTammycom.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Bonjour, welcome to Psychologist Say, a podcast
where I talk about thepsychology of everyday living.
I'm your host, dr Tammy.
I'm joined today by returningguest Harold.
How are you doing today, harold?
Speaker 1 (00:37):
I'm doing great.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Great, I'm excited to have you here again today.
So what would you like to talkabout today?
I'm letting you pick the topic.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Public speaking would be, I think, a pretty
interesting topic for me, andthen hopefully you guys as well.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Oh, definitely.
This is public speaking.
So is this something that Imean?
You don't have to get personalwith me if you don't want to.
Everybody, I hope, understandsthe rules of psychologists, but
is this something that youstruggle with or you just want
to talk about because you'reinterested in it?
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Oh, I've definitely struggled with it in my life.
I mean, I've worked and workedto get better at it, but it's
definitely something that I'vestruggled with for sure.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Okay, yes, so you're definitely not alone in this
struggle.
This is the most common type ofI don't know if it's a phobia
or fear is public speaking, andso it's definitely something
that I think our listeners willsit, take a moment and turn up
the volume and really check in,because many individuals about
(01:49):
40% of our population in the USstruggles from fear of public
speaking.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Right, I'm not alone.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
You're not even close to alone and it's considered it
actually is considered in aclass of.
It falls under the umbrella ofsocial anxiety disorder, and I
did an episode on social anxietyin, I think, season one, and so
those of you who want to getmore information definitely go
(02:19):
and revisit that episode.
We won't go into so much detailabout social anxiety here.
Let's talk specifically aboutthis here, about public speaking
right and uh really, whensomebody has a fear of this
social or are doing something inpublic, it's more of a
performance issue.
(02:40):
So that feeling of performanceanxiety.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Right.
So like when I'm, if I in asituation where I'm public
speaking, speaking in public,oftentimes I'll just look out in
the crowd and I see all ofthose eyes staring at me,
waiting for me to say something,something intelligent,
something interesting, you know,and that makes me freeze a
(03:06):
little bit and it scares me, Iguess, in a way well that, yes
and uh, even the way that you'redescribing it does sound very
fearful, right?
Speaker 2 (03:14):
oh yeah absolutely, and so part of that, uh freeze
is the brain really starting tosee that the audience, how you
mentioned, has a threat?
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Oh, a threat.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
A threat.
Like okay, and that's where thethreat pairs with the word fear
.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
And then so the brain will.
It's kind of like your frontallobe, many people say, like you,
flip your lid.
It's kind of like your frontallobe, many people say, like you
flip your lid, so that frontalpart of your brain, when we're
in a fear, extreme fear response, it will kind of go offline,
kind of like a computer, and soit really shuts down our
(03:57):
executive functioning, which isalso a big word for problem
solving being able tocommunicate effectively, sound,
intelligent in the moment,because it takes higher order
thinking and that's what thispart of your brain does.
It's that higher reaching brainthat just kind of starts to
(04:19):
malfunction under extreme stress.
Because we think we'rethreatened, or we feel we're
threatened, we've you're, or wefeel we're threatened, but in
your thoughts, your thoughts andyour feelings are going to.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
I'm not safe here and it, and that's exactly right.
I don't feel safe at all rightsometimes.
But, like I said, I've beenworking at it and I think I'm
much better at it, but it takesa lot of effort to to work
through that kind of problem Atleast it did for me.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Yes, and what you're talking, you know, and if many
people and if not you know,definitely look this up.
But there's fight, flight andfreeze.
Does that sound familiar?
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Fight and flight are two things we've heard.
I've heard quite a bitthroughout my life, and freeze
is a new one.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
I've been hearing that a little bit more in maybe
the last couple years.
Okay, so, uh, and, and peopleare adding uh, you know, with
the social media and um, theinternet, they're adding other
things beyond fight and flightand freeze.
Uh, there's fun, there's um, sothey're they're adding more.
But I, right now I stick to thefight, flight and freeze
because that's my training andI'm very familiar with that.
But the brain phrasing is partof our system that's being
(05:37):
targeted and it's beingactivated.
So our nervous system we havetwo parts the sympathetic and
the parasympathetic.
And so we are, we're are humansare supposed to live in
parasympathetic, which is therest and digest.
It's, it's the calm state ofbeing, it's when we're, when
we're content, we're happy,we're safe, right.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Right.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
And then the uh, the uh.
Sympathetic is when we'reactivated, we're stressed, we
feel threatened and we need torespond.
We need to either fight offwhat's threatening us right, if
it was a, historically, it wouldbe like an animal that we
(06:21):
didn't have the means to protectourselves with.
This is really dating back tohow we had to survive like
hunter, gatherer, time framestuff, like a lion walks into
the, into our little village orsomething yeah, right, if we had
a village then yeah, I mean,this is really um human nature
and we are like animals, wherewe we have that same system of
(06:46):
we need to survive.
We are, we have built-insurvival mechanisms that are
triggering and being turned onwhen we feel threatened.
Now remember that word survivalyes so you're talking about
public speaking and the samesystem is going off for you as
if your audience was a room fullof tigers that are ready to
(07:10):
attack you.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Yeah, so when we experience those moments when
public speaking it's a coreelement of just being a human
being, but it's triggering maybea more traumatic I'm not sure
if that's the right word.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
No, it doesn't even have to be a traumatic
experience that triggers.
It's the experience or thethought of fear that's paired
with some emotion.
So, uh, many people who arefearful of public speaking, it's
(07:51):
into the deeper level of I'mfearful of that.
I will be judged, that I willbe humiliated, yeah, that I will
say something that will justdamage my reputation or that I
will let people down.
I won't be good enough.
That's the.
It's like a moral injury.
It's something that they'rethinking and feeling and the
(08:13):
fear of that happening is justso intense, yeah.
So some people who are fearfulof public speaking may never,
ever even do it.
So they may just be so scaredand in the the anticipation of
something really horrifichappening when they're doing
(08:34):
this kind of performance so Iguess, um, if someone has a fear
of public speaking, what?
Speaker 1 (08:42):
what would you say to them to help work through that
kind of problem?
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Part of it is the.
It's looking at understandingthat basic element of this is
something I'm fearful of, and toexamine what are my thoughts
around public speaking thatscare me Right.
What is my biggest fear?
So just kind of ask yourselfthose kinds of questions Right,
(09:08):
and to also say, okay, I'm notalone in this, so this is
something that I can workthrough.
If it's something that you wantto do.
There are some people that arefearful of it and it doesn't
distress them.
They just don't.
They're like no, I don't wantto, it doesn't distress me, it's
not a goal, so I don't, I don'twant to work on it.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Yeah, so they might be in a career where they that's
not necessary, but many peopleare in a career where you have
to.
You have to speak in front ofpeople.
There's really no option.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Yes, and you know this brings up a good example
(10:06):
for our kids in school.
For many kids there is nooption.
This's not that they can't dothe math, but having them go to
the front of the class and raceagainst another student.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Or finish this math problem, walk up here, finish it
.
That can be very nerve wracking.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Yes, yes.
(10:47):
And for somebody who doesn'teven have the fear of it but and
their, their brain is freezing,it's not optimal, it's not
competitive, it is frozen andthen.
So episodes like that in inchildhood can then lead to maybe
down the road.
Well, I don't ever want to haveto do anything in front, in
front of a crowd again.
So that's where it maybe itwasn't traumatic, but it was a
(11:11):
uncomfortable memory of timeswhen I felt like I failed, I
felt like I wasn't, I didn'tperform, I lost, I didn't do
anything, I was, you know.
So that can start that internalmonologue with themselves on I'm
, I'm really not good enough orI can't function like that.
(11:37):
I'm not, I'm not, my brainisn't working under those
circumstances.
So those are some of the thingswhere that fear may then be
traced back to something that,oh yeah, I could see, where
maybe as an adult, I wouldn'twant to put myself out there for
that kind of judgment, or justI don't want to feel that again
(12:02):
so if someone does have thisfear, does it, does it always
stem from something else, likemaybe early in childhood, uh, an
environmental situation, or oris it?
you know, sometimes it's justnaturally occurring within a
certain individual, both okay, Ithink some people you just have
a higher like fear threshold orpersonality um of for certain
(12:25):
things, and so I think that, uh,it's, I think it.
Maybe it's even somethingthat's very common for most
people, until they start doingit more and more and then so, um
, that's where, I said,personality comes into play too,
where, um, some people are veryoutgoing, it may come they,
(12:46):
they thrive on a bit ofadrenaline and pressure yeah and
so this is where some peoplemay have been born with a
different temperament.
they may not feel as comfortableand confident, and so under
those circumstances, they'rejust naturally getting more
stressed out and they'remalfunctioning a little bit more
(13:08):
.
Another thing is whiteknuckling it.
We say that when you're reallyuncomfortable, so when you think
about doing something andyou're really clenching your
fists or chins, and so they'regetting through things in life,
but they're really uncomfortable.
it's like a kind of a painfulexperience yeah because, um,
(13:30):
physiologically, their body isreacting with a lot more stress
than maybe the people aroundthem right their body's
literally fighting it's somehowfighting instead of helping them
get through this.
so I think it's very natural forkids and adults to start to
compare themselves toindividuals who are geez, you
(13:51):
know, boy, that student is justawesome.
Maybe these would be yourpopular.
You know, sometimes they callthem the popular kids, or some
kids who are just well spoken,the leaders.
Maybe they're able to get outthere and really compete.
You know, they win the mathcompetitions, the spelling bees,
and so sometimes it justbecomes to where we start to
(14:14):
compare, yeah, and we start tolimit ourselves in terms of
certain things that we believewe can do and maybe that we
shouldn't do, because we're not.
We're not good enough or we'renot good at it yeah, um, so I
got another question.
So with if we have, if webelieve we have, uh, you know,
(14:37):
the fear of public speaking orthat kind of anxiety you
mentioned, like that could beassociated with, uh, social
anxiety or social, uh, you knowso let's say, uh, let's say when
I, if somebody were to come inand work with me, I don't think
I ever had a person come in andsay I'm fearful of public
(15:00):
speaking, Can you help me, canyou help me with this?
Uh, so usually it comes down to, uh, there's, I've been missing
a lot of work, I'm, um,thinking about changing my job,
I'm having a lot of anxiety andstress, uh, and then I'm having
(15:20):
a lot of anxiety and stress, andthen I'm avoiding gatherings at
work, I'm calling in sick, I'm,you know, just kind of a lot of
behaviors that are showingavoidance, and sometimes then it
starts to get.
Well, how do you do with youknow?
Do you have any fear about when?
Are days when you're calling insick, oh, and I have to get up
(15:41):
and do a report, I have to talkin front of the meeting.
Those are the days you know.
All of a sudden then thatbecomes okay.
You start to like, narrow down.
This may not be all performancesituations, but very specific
to when you have to speak up andeverybody's looking at you and
(16:04):
it's tied to that fear of beingjudged and ridiculed and being
embarrassed.
And so you start to break down.
Where in your life is thishappening?
And you brought up a good pointearlier where you said well, if
you're not required to do thisat work, yeah, you probably
wouldn't have to worry about it.
But this is where you say whendo I know if I need therapy or
(16:31):
should I go talk to a therapist?
Definitely, if there'ssomething that's impairing your
ability to function at work orat school or in some kind of
social setting because of theanxiety around it, that's
definitely an area that we wantto help with.
And when you explain to themafter you're trying to help
(16:52):
figure out is this a specificphobia versus is this something
that can happen across differentsocial settings?
Speaker 1 (17:07):
So there are two different kinds of people when
it comes to personalities, likethe introverts and extroverts.
Right, and you could be on thatline somewhere.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
There you go.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
If someone's an extrovert, they're probably less
likely to be.
You don't have a fear of publicspeaking.
Is that?
Was that true to you?
Speaker 2 (17:27):
Boy, that's a good uh question.
I would.
I mean my, my overall thoughtis uh, you know what?
I actually am not fully, fullysure.
I would say that yourextroverts are naturally your
people who are more comfortablein social settings.
It doesn't necessarily meanthey're the ones who want to get
(17:50):
up and talk to a group of ahundred or a thousand people.
Sure, so that's where I wouldreally break down a public
speaker, because that requiressome kind of drive and
uniqueness of wanting that role.
And so, um, getting up andbeing able to speak to crowds is
(18:13):
a fear that I think that 40 itjust goes.
You can be extra extroverted orintroverted and still have that
fear there.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
It lies all over the spectrum.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
It lies all over.
Yes, just because you'reextroverted does not mean that
you feel confident or you're theperson that wants to get up and
give that speech.
So I think that's how strongthat fear of public speaking is,
because it's more about I don't.
I'm so scared that I'm going tobe ridiculed or shamed or say
(18:47):
something, and so that fear isstrong and it goes beyond
personality types.
But overall I think when peopleare in social settings, that
social anxiety, that when you'reextroverted, that there's a
piece of you that functions wellwith that back and forth of
(19:10):
having crowds, being able to gointo a social setting and just
have a personality where you'reable to talk to several people
without maybe knowing them, oryou find your level of comfort
right away in a room.
It's like you kind of know howto work a room.
Yeah and um, that's your, apiece of your biology or your
(19:34):
personality, your physiology, itwas.
It relies on that and, and forsomebody who's more introverted,
it doesn't mean they don't everwant that social stimulation,
but they don't crave it as much.
It doesn't feed their spirit,their soul in the same way it
does an extrovert.
(19:54):
So that's a really big topic.
I think that's another goodshow for us to talk about,
because it's not necessarilydisordered.
It's more looking at.
How do you understand thesetypes of personalities?
Because I think inrelationships, extroverts and
introverts are drawn togetherand they're opposite.
(20:16):
Yeah, opposites attract yeah,opposite, attract, well, they do
, but then it's, it is a I.
I have a big personal opinionon um, how that, how well they
can function, or I guess in myopinion, the extroverts have to
uh, change, do more of theadjusting and changing when you
have, when you're with anintrovert really, oh, that's
(20:38):
interesting yeah, and you knowokay that that's my personal um,
I'm fairly extroverted and so Iguess I think that the
extroverts are, um, kind ofcalled out more for their
behavior.
Yeah, uh, maybe shamed a littlebit more for it.
Um, because it's more somehowlooked at as you need attention,
(20:59):
but it's it's not aboutattention.
It's more somehow looked at asyou need attention, but it's
it's not about attention.
It's about stimulation ofinteracting with other people.
And so if you get an extrovertinto a room of people and they
start to light up and they startto feel good and they're
talking and laughing andbouncing from conversation to
conversation, they're talkingand laughing and bouncing from
(21:19):
conversation to conversation.
They're in the zone and it has.
It means that, um, it's, it's,they're having a physiological
reaction to something that feelsright for them, it's
stimulation, it's, and it's goodfor them.
And then so that's that's moreabout um, uh, what, what people
are looking for.
So that's more about whatpeople are looking for.
(21:42):
So that's how we kind ofseparate that difference between
oh, and now you have to give aspeech.
So even if you're extrovertedand you claim that back and
forth with people, they wouldstill have that same response,
maybe at a different level ofintensity.
(22:02):
So I think that overall, yes,introverts can develop into
these powerhouse speakers andextroverts will still can also
have that avoidance of.
I can work a room and I enjoyevery exciting adventure I go on
in life, but I don't want toget up and do that kind of talk.
(22:24):
Yeah, yeah, so that you broughtus down a whole nother
interesting comment, which isawesome because I think our
listeners they're fine with usveering off because we just get
to talk about more interestingtopics, parts of personality and
and how complex we are ashumans yeah, there's many, many
(22:45):
roads, like you know.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
We could go down and stuff.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
So right, right, but I like the, the public speaking
and I I do tell people when Iwas um because people will come
up.
This is something I get moreanxiety performance anxiety when
I talk to um a group of, let'ssay, 10 people, and if you put
me in a room you know I, I wouldrather talk to an auditorium
(23:11):
full.
I could talk to thousands ofpeople, you know whatever, but
put me in with 10 people that ummaybe even know me well, I'll
have much more public speakinganxiety about that.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Sometimes it could be even like more anxious and
anxiety inducing when you doknow the people.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
If you don't know anybody, then it's like, well,
these are people that don't knowme.
I could say whatever.
Right, I can make thosemistakes and you know it doesn't
really matter.
But when you're around peopleyou like and maybe even respect,
it can be really pretty tough.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Right, and I think that's something to consider
where there's always thisdifferent level of how much
stress we allow to get into ourminds allowed to get into our
minds.
So I guess I would feel thatsame way when I, if I was in a
group of peers, otherpsychologists, a room full of
(24:12):
different views and trainingsand opinions, and if I'm up
speaking, I think again myanxiety threshold would be
higher more fear of being judged, more fear of people maybe not
totally agreeing with what I'msaying, more experts that could
challenge me, and so that my, myfear about doing that specific
(24:35):
speaking event would be elevatedand I would probably do, um,
have a lot more anxiety leadingup to that.
But in my mind, the way I teachpatients and the way I do it
myself is taking that, you know,and a lot of times the fear is
so strong because wecatastrophize it that means
we're thinking the absoluteworst.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
The worst of the worst.
Yeah Right, they're all goingto hate me.
No one's going to talk to meanymore.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Everybody's going to get up and walk out, um,
whatever your fear is.
And then you have to take itand you have to de-catastrophize
it.
So when you ask, like what canpeople do who are fearful and
who want to give them to thisand they want to be able to
speak, um, give public talkswith more confidence, that's
(25:26):
part of saying what's my biggestfear about it.
And then how can Idecatastrophize that?
What's the odds that everybodywill hate my speech?
What's the odds that I do nothave one intelligent thing to
say today?
What's the odds that somebodyis going to just totally attack
(25:51):
me and put me on the spot andpurposely try to embarrass me?
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Yeah, like a heckler kind of there you go yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
A heckler, somebody challenging in the crowd.
Yep, that's one step.
Another thing that really worksis rehearsing.
It doesn't mean you have tomemorize, but because even that
can get stressful.
But this was something I did inmy early days of.
I was not always a naturalpublic speaker.
When I was young I actually hadsevere social anxiety like
(26:30):
almost debilitating it felt.
And so now that this issomething I do, it was.
It happened naturally andgradually and I had to practice
and rehearse and make sure whenmy confidence was low, I had to
build up to a level ofunderstanding that I could do
this.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
Yep, I was dumb.
I was same situation with me.
The way I improved was practice, practice, practice.
Go through your PowerPoint orwhatever you're using over and
over and over again, okay, andthat was the best tool I've ever
used Practice, practice,practice, practice and over and
over again.
And that was the best tool I'veever used Practicing, practice,
(27:07):
practice, practice, rehearsingyeah, Right, and it's like
practice makes prepare.
Practice makes prepare.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
Because I normally even want to say yeah.
I'm not yeah, I bet you're alittle bit of a perfectionist
too.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
In some ways I am, but I know when I the idea of
public speaking.
I know I'm not going to delivera perfect speech, it's not
going to happen, but I want tobe as good as I possibly can be.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
And I think part of that is a lot of people who care
.
They have that fear of publicspeaking because they do care.
They, they don't want to saythe wrong thing.
They and many people strugglewith oh well, it has to be
perfect, otherwise I don't wantto do it and, like you said,
well, that's really hard with aspeech.
(27:50):
You have to nail it where it'sperfect.
So there's all this element ofhow do you try to be perfect,
and that's why I said let's tryto be prepared, because
perfection with public speakingis not there.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
Perfection in almost any aspect of life is impossible
.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Right, there you go.
So this is another greatexample.
Another thing that I can say isto start small Practice with
and this is what I'll do intherapy with individuals if
they're worried about reading inpublic or speaking will start
small, and that's calledexposure.
(28:29):
So exposure therapy and whileyou're doing exposure therapy it
can be gradual or it can beintense.
You know where it's more.
It all depends on the readinessof your patient, the timing of
the event Also.
Sometimes, if there's somethingbig coming up and they need to
(28:50):
prepare and try to get somewherefaster, you might have to up
the intensity of the treatment.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
To get them ready.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
To get them ready and just coming in to start, that
is, allowing them an opportunityto address this fear thought
and then to really start to havea plan on.
I can do this, but I need sometools, I need some steps in the
right direction, and there areother things that we can do that
(29:19):
are beyond the scope of thisexact session.
But there are ways to talk witha psychiatrist.
There are certain treatmentsthat can help people who have
really extreme I'm talking aboutthe extreme anxiety where
(29:39):
they've done a lot of coaching,they've done a lot of rehearsing
.
They are just really strugglingto get there and they have to
really white knuckle stuff andit's causing a lot of distress
because maybe at work they can'tavoid these speeches and they
have to give one.
You know this many times, somany times.
Those are other situations whereI'd say you know we need that.
(30:03):
That's talking about intensityand what type of intervention we
have to look at based on how,the severity of your symptoms
and how much this could bebothering somebody.
So that's all of the stuffthat's included.
But if you bring this to yoursite like somebody like me as a
psychologist, if you bring thisto your site like somebody like
(30:24):
me is a psychologist.
There could be severaldifferent ways and I want people
to know that.
There are so many ways that wecan try to help with this and it
is something that we can treatand we can work on.
So there's different avenues Iguess I want people to know
about, not just what we'retalking about today.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
There's not one way to do it.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
There's not one way to do it.
There's not one way to do it,and so if you're a listener,
you're like oh, mine's too.
You know I'm beyond.
No, that's where I want you tosay this is something that I can
keep working on.
You know, I can get moreinformation on what other
treatments work for this.
Maybe I've tried the approachor a thought came about.
(31:07):
That's where I want people tokeep looking and keep talking to
us so that we can try to comeup with something that works for
them.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
Right.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
Right.
So I really think people aregoing to be excited that we are
talking about this.
Really think people are goingto be excited that we are
talking about this and then, um,maybe feeling like they're
ready to to do some more work inthis area.
Well, I'm sure many people areyeah I guess the other thing,
now that I'm, I want to pointout another thing that you said
(31:38):
is you said oh, I remember atime when, um, I practiced and
it really helped me.
So it sounds like there was atime when I practiced and it
really helped me.
So it sounds like there was atime when you felt like you
really got through somethinglike this public speaking.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Oh, I've made huge strides Like I'd be able to.
Like it was so difficult totalk, I would stutter, stutter,
stutter, lose my place.
What was I talking about?
And now I can at least stay ontask.
There's a lot of improvementthat needs to be done, but, yeah
, I've made a lot of progress.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Well, so there you go , right, and it sounds like you
kind of came up with your ownplan on how do I tackle this.
You know how do I?
Speaker 1 (32:16):
I mean, it's just like almost anything else that I
personally do.
I know that practice isimportant in anything you do,
and I just apply that same logicto public speaking whenever I
have to do more of that for,like, school or my career.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
Right, right, and that's, I would say that's to
those individuals out there.
That's where you start andthat's the difference between
like, well, when do I need toseek mental health for this?
And that's when it starts tothat fear of public speaking
actually starts to causedistress in your life.
(32:53):
It's distressing and it's alsointerfering with some aspect of
your either your work, yourfamily, your social.
You know there has to be somekind of thing that is it's
causing distress and someimpairment.
That's when you know thedifference between a level of
what can I tackle on my own andwhat's starting to get to that
(33:14):
realm of becoming distressfuland it's actually impairing my
functioning.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
And at that point it's good to talk to somebody
that could lead you, that couldguide you.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
That can guide you and that's letting us in, so we
can do an assessment, where Isaid we would figure out what
this is and if it's somethingthat we can treat, if it's
something that we can diagnoseand treat, and then we can help
you start a treatment plan.
And that's the piece that, um,that's where intensity comes in
(33:46):
and we can always try differenttreatments that can can help you
really um get at the symptomsand the severity.
When I say intensity, severityof this okay.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Yeah, severity, yeah, that's okay.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
I like that word more yeah, and then like um, if it's
something too.
I always think of time, like isthis chronic?
Has this been something you?
know, yes, okay, so it's, howlong has this been going on?
And those are some things thatcan really help you get to the
root cause of.
Some people may have functionedreally well with public
(34:24):
speaking, of um, some people mayhave functioned really well
with public speaking and then,all of a sudden, they start
getting extreme anxiety, wantingto avoid it, and it's out of
the blue they're like theyregress they were, well, just
something.
Something's not the same aboutthem.
Why, all of a sudden, am Iscared to do something like this
?
Speaker 1 (34:39):
and is that?
That, at that point, isprobably a good question, like
what you mentioned earlier,asking yourself like what's
going on what's changed for me?
Speaker 2 (34:46):
yeah and sometimes those aren't easy things to
answer no and then that's whereit's coming in and saying wow
boy, I was I.
I I would never get nervousabout public speaking.
Now, all of a sudden, I'mgetting real scared on, my palms
are getting sweaty, I'mstarting to forget my words and
now I really don't want to do itanymore.
(35:08):
That's not like me.
Those are all great things tostart saying.
Something definitely changedthere, and sometimes we don't
know exactly what it is.
So that's where seeking outsome therapy can definitely help
with that.
So I really want to thank youfor coming on and being brave,
(35:28):
and you did disclose a littlebit.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
Oh, that's fine.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
Yeah, and I disclosed a little bit, and so hopefully
we're encouraging our listenersto keep having these great
conversations, and I do want youto think about a time when you
anything in life where you'refeeling insecure or you're
trying to improve, just likewhat Harold did.
He was like well, there was atime when I practiced, I
(35:53):
practiced and I actually haveyes, I had to give many speeches
and then so that can really bea reminder that looking at a
time when we did do this well orwe got through this, when we
have that example in our life,can really help boost us in that
right direction.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Acknowledge the progress we've made.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
There you go, there you go.
So miigwech for tuning in andlistening.
Don't forget to download andgive us a like on social media
PS.
Social anxiety can be veryuncomfortable.
One form of it could includepublic speaking.
The first step is just to starttackling it and thinking where
(36:39):
that fear may come from.
The following is a series of candid conversations.
The content is intended forinformational purposes only and
is not a substitute for seekinghelp from a mental health care
professional.
To learn more info regardingadditional disclaimers, privacy
policies and terms andconditions, please visit
HelloDrTammycom.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Bonjour, welcome to Psychologist Say, a podcast
where I talk about thepsychology of everyday living.
I'm your host, dr Tammy.
I'm joined today by returningguest Harold.
How are you doing today, harold?
Speaker 1 (00:37):
I'm doing great.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Great, I'm excited to have you here again today.
So what would you like to talkabout today?
I'm letting you pick the topic.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Public speaking would be, I think, a pretty
interesting topic for me, andthen hopefully you guys as well.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Oh, definitely.
This is public speaking.
So is this something that Imean?
You don't have to get personalwith me if you don't want to.
Everybody, I hope, understandsthe rules of psychologists, but
is this something that youstruggle with or you just want
to talk about because you'reinterested in it?
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Oh, I've definitely struggled with it in my life.
I mean, I've worked and workedto get better at it, but it's
definitely something that I'vestruggled with for sure.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
Okay, yes, so you're definitely not alone in this
struggle.
This is the most common type ofI don't know if it's a phobia
or fear is public speaking, andso it's definitely something
that I think our listeners willsit, take a moment and turn up
the volume and really check in,because many individuals about
(01:49):
40% of our population in the USstruggles from fear of public
speaking.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Right, I'm not alone.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
You're not even close to alone and it's considered it
actually is considered in aclass of.
It falls under the umbrella ofsocial anxiety disorder, and I
did an episode on social anxietyin, I think, season one, and so
those of you who want to getmore information definitely go
(02:19):
and revisit that episode.
We won't go into so much detailabout social anxiety here.
Let's talk specifically aboutthis here, about public speaking
right and uh really, whensomebody has a fear of this
social or are doing something inpublic, it's more of a
performance issue.
(02:40):
So that feeling of performanceanxiety.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Right.
So like when I'm, if I in asituation where I'm public
speaking, speaking in public,oftentimes I'll just look out in
the crowd and I see all ofthose eyes staring at me,
waiting for me to say something,something intelligent,
something interesting, you know,and that makes me freeze a
(03:06):
little bit and it scares me, Iguess, in a way well that, yes
and uh, even the way that you'redescribing it does sound very
fearful, right?
Speaker 2 (03:14):
oh yeah absolutely, and so part of that, uh freeze
is the brain really starting tosee that the audience, how you
mentioned, has a threat?
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Oh, a threat.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
A threat.
Like okay, and that's where thethreat pairs with the word fear
.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
And then so the brain will.
It's kind of like your frontallobe, many people say, like you,
flip your lid.
It's kind of like your frontallobe, many people say, like you
flip your lid, so that frontalpart of your brain, when we're
in a fear, extreme fear response, it will kind of go offline,
kind of like a computer, and soit really shuts down our
(03:57):
executive functioning, which isalso a big word for problem
solving being able tocommunicate effectively, sound,
intelligent in the moment,because it takes higher order
thinking and that's what thispart of your brain does.
It's that higher reaching brainthat just kind of starts to
(04:19):
malfunction under extreme stress.
Because we think we'rethreatened, or we feel we're
threatened, we've you're, or wefeel we're threatened, but in
your thoughts, your thoughts andyour feelings are going to.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
I'm not safe here and it, and that's exactly right.
I don't feel safe at all rightsometimes.
But, like I said, I've beenworking at it and I think I'm
much better at it, but it takesa lot of effort to to work
through that kind of problem Atleast it did for me.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Yes, and what you're talking, you know, and if many
people and if not you know,definitely look this up.
But there's fight, flight andfreeze.
Does that sound familiar?
Speaker 1 (04:56):
Fight and flight are two things we've heard.
I've heard quite a bitthroughout my life, and freeze
is a new one.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
I've been hearing that a little bit more in maybe
the last couple years.
Okay, so, uh, and, and peopleare adding uh, you know, with
the social media and um, theinternet, they're adding other
things beyond fight and flightand freeze.
Uh, there's fun, there's um, sothey're they're adding more.
But I, right now I stick to thefight, flight and freeze
because that's my training andI'm very familiar with that.
But the brain phrasing is partof our system that's being
(05:37):
targeted and it's beingactivated.
So our nervous system we havetwo parts the sympathetic and
the parasympathetic.
And so we are, we're are humansare supposed to live in
parasympathetic, which is therest and digest.
It's, it's the calm state ofbeing, it's when we're, when
we're content, we're happy,we're safe, right.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Right.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
And then the uh, the uh.
Sympathetic is when we'reactivated, we're stressed, we
feel threatened and we need torespond.
We need to either fight offwhat's threatening us right, if
it was a, historically, it wouldbe like an animal that we
(06:21):
didn't have the means to protectourselves with.
This is really dating back tohow we had to survive like
hunter, gatherer, time framestuff, like a lion walks into
the, into our little village orsomething yeah, right, if we had
a village then yeah, I mean,this is really um human nature
and we are like animals, wherewe we have that same system of
(06:46):
we need to survive.
We are, we have built-insurvival mechanisms that are
triggering and being turned onwhen we feel threatened.
Now remember that word survivalyes so you're talking about
public speaking and the samesystem is going off for you as
if your audience was a room fullof tigers that are ready to
(07:10):
attack you.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Yeah, so when we experience those moments when
public speaking it's a coreelement of just being a human
being, but it's triggering maybea more traumatic I'm not sure
if that's the right word.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
No, it doesn't even have to be a traumatic
experience that triggers.
It's the experience or thethought of fear that's paired
with some emotion.
So, uh, many people who arefearful of public speaking, it's
(07:51):
into the deeper level of I'mfearful of that.
I will be judged, that I willbe humiliated, yeah, that I will
say something that will justdamage my reputation or that I
will let people down.
I won't be good enough.
That's the.
It's like a moral injury.
It's something that they'rethinking and feeling and the
(08:13):
fear of that happening is justso intense, yeah.
So some people who are fearfulof public speaking may never,
ever even do it.
So they may just be so scaredand in the the anticipation of
something really horrifichappening when they're doing
(08:34):
this kind of performance so Iguess, um, if someone has a fear
of public speaking, what?
Speaker 1 (08:42):
what would you say to them to help work through that
kind of problem?
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Part of it is the.
It's looking at understandingthat basic element of this is
something I'm fearful of, and toexamine what are my thoughts
around public speaking thatscare me Right.
What is my biggest fear?
So just kind of ask yourselfthose kinds of questions Right,
(09:08):
and to also say, okay, I'm notalone in this, so this is
something that I can workthrough.
If it's something that you wantto do.
There are some people that arefearful of it and it doesn't
distress them.
They just don't.
They're like no, I don't wantto, it doesn't distress me, it's
not a goal, so I don't, I don'twant to work on it.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Yeah, so they might be in a career where they that's
not necessary, but many peopleare in a career where you have
to.
You have to speak in front ofpeople.
There's really no option.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Yes, and you know this brings up a good example
(10:06):
for our kids in school.
For many kids there is nooption.
This's not that they can't dothe math, but having them go to
the front of the class and raceagainst another student.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Or finish this math problem, walk up here, finish it
.
That can be very nerve wracking.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
Yes, yes.
(10:47):
And for somebody who doesn'teven have the fear of it but and
their, their brain is freezing,it's not optimal, it's not
competitive, it is frozen andthen.
So episodes like that in inchildhood can then lead to maybe
down the road.
Well, I don't ever want to haveto do anything in front, in
front of a crowd again.
So that's where it maybe itwasn't traumatic, but it was a
(11:11):
uncomfortable memory of timeswhen I felt like I failed, I
felt like I wasn't, I didn'tperform, I lost, I didn't do
anything, I was, you know.
So that can start that internalmonologue with themselves on I'm
, I'm really not good enough orI can't function like that.
(11:37):
I'm not, I'm not, my brainisn't working under those
circumstances.
So those are some of the thingswhere that fear may then be
traced back to something that,oh yeah, I could see, where
maybe as an adult, I wouldn'twant to put myself out there for
that kind of judgment, or justI don't want to feel that again
(12:02):
so if someone does have thisfear, does it, does it always
stem from something else, likemaybe early in childhood, uh, an
environmental situation, or oris it?
you know, sometimes it's justnaturally occurring within a
certain individual, both okay, Ithink some people you just have
a higher like fear threshold orpersonality um of for certain
(12:25):
things, and so I think that, uh,it's, I think it.
Maybe it's even somethingthat's very common for most
people, until they start doingit more and more and then so, um
, that's where, I said,personality comes into play too,
where, um, some people are veryoutgoing, it may come they,
(12:46):
they thrive on a bit ofadrenaline and pressure yeah and
so this is where some peoplemay have been born with a
different temperament.
they may not feel as comfortableand confident, and so under
those circumstances, they'rejust naturally getting more
stressed out and they'remalfunctioning a little bit more
(13:08):
.
Another thing is whiteknuckling it.
We say that when you're reallyuncomfortable, so when you think
about doing something andyou're really clenching your
fists or chins, and so they'regetting through things in life,
but they're really uncomfortable.
it's like a kind of a painfulexperience yeah because, um,
(13:30):
physiologically, their body isreacting with a lot more stress
than maybe the people aroundthem right their body's
literally fighting it's somehowfighting instead of helping them
get through this.
so I think it's very natural forkids and adults to start to
compare themselves toindividuals who are geez, you
(13:51):
know, boy, that student is justawesome.
Maybe these would be yourpopular.
You know, sometimes they callthem the popular kids, or some
kids who are just well spoken,the leaders.
Maybe they're able to get outthere and really compete.
You know, they win the mathcompetitions, the spelling bees,
and so sometimes it justbecomes to where we start to
(14:14):
compare, yeah, and we start tolimit ourselves in terms of
certain things that we believewe can do and maybe that we
shouldn't do, because we're not.
We're not good enough or we'renot good at it yeah, um, so I
got another question.
So with if we have, if webelieve we have, uh, you know,
(14:37):
the fear of public speaking orthat kind of anxiety you
mentioned, like that could beassociated with, uh, social
anxiety or social, uh, you knowso let's say, uh, let's say when
I, if somebody were to come inand work with me, I don't think
I ever had a person come in andsay I'm fearful of public
(15:00):
speaking, Can you help me, canyou help me with this?
Uh, so usually it comes down to, uh, there's, I've been missing
a lot of work, I'm, um,thinking about changing my job,
I'm having a lot of anxiety andstress, uh, and then I'm having
(15:20):
a lot of anxiety and stress, andthen I'm avoiding gatherings at
work, I'm calling in sick, I'm,you know, just kind of a lot of
behaviors that are showingavoidance, and sometimes then it
starts to get.
Well, how do you do with youknow?
Do you have any fear about when?
Are days when you're calling insick, oh, and I have to get up
(15:41):
and do a report, I have to talkin front of the meeting.
Those are the days you know.
All of a sudden then thatbecomes okay.
You start to like, narrow down.
This may not be all performancesituations, but very specific
to when you have to speak up andeverybody's looking at you and
(16:04):
it's tied to that fear of beingjudged and ridiculed and being
embarrassed.
And so you start to break down.
Where in your life is thishappening?
And you brought up a good pointearlier where you said well, if
you're not required to do thisat work, yeah, you probably
wouldn't have to worry about it.
But this is where you say whendo I know if I need therapy or
(16:31):
should I go talk to a therapist?
Definitely, if there'ssomething that's impairing your
ability to function at work orat school or in some kind of
social setting because of theanxiety around it, that's
definitely an area that we wantto help with.
And when you explain to themafter you're trying to help
(16:52):
figure out is this a specificphobia versus is this something
that can happen across differentsocial settings?
Speaker 1 (17:07):
So there are two different kinds of people when
it comes to personalities, likethe introverts and extroverts.
Right, and you could be on thatline somewhere.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
There you go.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
If someone's an extrovert, they're probably less
likely to be.
You don't have a fear of publicspeaking.
Is that?
Was that true to you?
Speaker 2 (17:27):
Boy, that's a good uh question.
I would.
I mean my, my overall thoughtis uh, you know what?
I actually am not fully, fullysure.
I would say that yourextroverts are naturally your
people who are more comfortablein social settings.
It doesn't necessarily meanthey're the ones who want to get
(17:50):
up and talk to a group of ahundred or a thousand people.
Sure, so that's where I wouldreally break down a public
speaker, because that requiressome kind of drive and
uniqueness of wanting that role.
And so, um, getting up andbeing able to speak to crowds is
(18:13):
a fear that I think that 40 itjust goes.
You can be extra extroverted orintroverted and still have that
fear there.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
It lies all over the spectrum.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
It lies all over.
Yes, just because you'reextroverted does not mean that
you feel confident or you're theperson that wants to get up and
give that speech.
So I think that's how strongthat fear of public speaking is,
because it's more about I don't.
I'm so scared that I'm going tobe ridiculed or shamed or say
(18:47):
something, and so that fear isstrong and it goes beyond
personality types.
But overall I think when peopleare in social settings, that
social anxiety, that when you'reextroverted, that there's a
piece of you that functions wellwith that back and forth of
(19:10):
having crowds, being able to gointo a social setting and just
have a personality where you'reable to talk to several people
without maybe knowing them, oryou find your level of comfort
right away in a room.
It's like you kind of know howto work a room.
Yeah and um, that's your, apiece of your biology or your
(19:34):
personality, your physiology, itwas.
It relies on that and, and forsomebody who's more introverted,
it doesn't mean they don't everwant that social stimulation,
but they don't crave it as much.
It doesn't feed their spirit,their soul in the same way it
does an extrovert.
(19:54):
So that's a really big topic.
I think that's another goodshow for us to talk about,
because it's not necessarilydisordered.
It's more looking at.
How do you understand thesetypes of personalities?
Because I think inrelationships, extroverts and
introverts are drawn togetherand they're opposite.
(20:16):
Yeah, opposites attract yeah,opposite, attract, well, they do
, but then it's, it is a I.
I have a big personal opinionon um, how that, how well they
can function, or I guess in myopinion, the extroverts have to
uh, change, do more of theadjusting and changing when you
have, when you're with anintrovert really, oh, that's
(20:38):
interesting yeah, and you knowokay that that's my personal um,
I'm fairly extroverted and so Iguess I think that the
extroverts are, um, kind ofcalled out more for their
behavior.
Yeah, uh, maybe shamed a littlebit more for it.
Um, because it's more somehowlooked at as you need attention,
(20:59):
but it's it's not aboutattention.
It's more somehow looked at asyou need attention, but it's
it's not about attention.
It's about stimulation ofinteracting with other people.
And so if you get an extrovertinto a room of people and they
start to light up and they startto feel good and they're
talking and laughing andbouncing from conversation to
conversation, they're talkingand laughing and bouncing from
(21:19):
conversation to conversation.
They're in the zone and it has.
It means that, um, it's, it's,they're having a physiological
reaction to something that feelsright for them, it's
stimulation, it's, and it's goodfor them.
And then so that's that's moreabout um, uh, what, what people
are looking for.
So that's more about whatpeople are looking for.
(21:42):
So that's how we kind ofseparate that difference between
oh, and now you have to give aspeech.
So even if you're extrovertedand you claim that back and
forth with people, they wouldstill have that same response,
maybe at a different level ofintensity.
(22:02):
So I think that overall, yes,introverts can develop into
these powerhouse speakers andextroverts will still can also
have that avoidance of.
I can work a room and I enjoyevery exciting adventure I go on
in life, but I don't want toget up and do that kind of talk.
(22:24):
Yeah, yeah, so that you broughtus down a whole nother
interesting comment, which isawesome because I think our
listeners they're fine with usveering off because we just get
to talk about more interestingtopics, parts of personality and
and how complex we are ashumans yeah, there's many, many
(22:45):
roads, like you know.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
We could go down and stuff.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
So right, right, but I like the, the public speaking
and I I do tell people when Iwas um because people will come
up.
This is something I get moreanxiety performance anxiety when
I talk to um a group of, let'ssay, 10 people, and if you put
me in a room you know I, I wouldrather talk to an auditorium
(23:11):
full.
I could talk to thousands ofpeople, you know whatever, but
put me in with 10 people that ummaybe even know me well, I'll
have much more public speakinganxiety about that.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Sometimes it could be even like more anxious and
anxiety inducing when you doknow the people.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
If you don't know anybody, then it's like, well,
these are people that don't knowme.
I could say whatever.
Right, I can make thosemistakes and you know it doesn't
really matter.
But when you're around peopleyou like and maybe even respect,
it can be really pretty tough.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Right, and I think that's something to consider
where there's always thisdifferent level of how much
stress we allow to get into ourminds allowed to get into our
minds.
So I guess I would feel thatsame way when I, if I was in a
group of peers, otherpsychologists, a room full of
(24:12):
different views and trainingsand opinions, and if I'm up
speaking, I think again myanxiety threshold would be
higher more fear of being judged, more fear of people maybe not
totally agreeing with what I'msaying, more experts that could
challenge me, and so that my, myfear about doing that specific
(24:35):
speaking event would be elevatedand I would probably do, um,
have a lot more anxiety leadingup to that.
But in my mind, the way I teachpatients and the way I do it
myself is taking that, you know,and a lot of times the fear is
so strong because wecatastrophize it that means
we're thinking the absoluteworst.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
The worst of the worst.
Yeah Right, they're all goingto hate me.
No one's going to talk to meanymore.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Everybody's going to get up and walk out, um,
whatever your fear is.
And then you have to take itand you have to de-catastrophize
it.
So when you ask, like what canpeople do who are fearful and
who want to give them to thisand they want to be able to
speak, um, give public talkswith more confidence, that's
(25:26):
part of saying what's my biggestfear about it.
And then how can Idecatastrophize that?
What's the odds that everybodywill hate my speech?
What's the odds that I do nothave one intelligent thing to
say today?
What's the odds that somebodyis going to just totally attack
(25:51):
me and put me on the spot andpurposely try to embarrass me?
Speaker 1 (25:55):
Yeah, like a heckler kind of there you go yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
A heckler, somebody challenging in the crowd.
Yep, that's one step.
Another thing that really worksis rehearsing.
It doesn't mean you have tomemorize, but because even that
can get stressful.
But this was something I did inmy early days of.
I was not always a naturalpublic speaker.
When I was young I actually hadsevere social anxiety like
(26:30):
almost debilitating it felt.
And so now that this issomething I do, it was.
It happened naturally andgradually and I had to practice
and rehearse and make sure whenmy confidence was low, I had to
build up to a level ofunderstanding that I could do
this.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
Yep, I was dumb.
I was same situation with me.
The way I improved was practice, practice, practice.
Go through your PowerPoint orwhatever you're using over and
over and over again, okay, andthat was the best tool I've ever
used Practice, practice,practice, practice and over and
over again.
And that was the best tool I'veever used Practicing, practice,
(27:07):
practice, practice, rehearsingyeah, Right, and it's like
practice makes prepare.
Practice makes prepare.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
Because I normally even want to say yeah.
I'm not yeah, I bet you're alittle bit of a perfectionist
too.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
In some ways I am, but I know when I the idea of
public speaking.
I know I'm not going to delivera perfect speech, it's not
going to happen, but I want tobe as good as I possibly can be.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
And I think part of that is a lot of people who care
.
They have that fear of publicspeaking because they do care.
They, they don't want to saythe wrong thing.
They and many people strugglewith oh well, it has to be
perfect, otherwise I don't wantto do it and, like you said,
well, that's really hard with aspeech.
(27:50):
You have to nail it where it'sperfect.
So there's all this element ofhow do you try to be perfect,
and that's why I said let's tryto be prepared, because
perfection with public speakingis not there.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
Perfection in almost any aspect of life is impossible
.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Right, there you go.
So this is another greatexample.
Another thing that I can say isto start small Practice with
and this is what I'll do intherapy with individuals if
they're worried about reading inpublic or speaking will start
small, and that's calledexposure.
(28:29):
So exposure therapy and whileyou're doing exposure therapy it
can be gradual or it can beintense.
You know where it's more.
It all depends on the readinessof your patient, the timing of
the event Also.
Sometimes, if there's somethingbig coming up and they need to
(28:50):
prepare and try to get somewherefaster, you might have to up
the intensity of the treatment.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
To get them ready.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
To get them ready and just coming in to start, that
is, allowing them an opportunityto address this fear thought
and then to really start to havea plan on.
I can do this, but I need sometools, I need some steps in the
right direction, and there areother things that we can do that
(29:19):
are beyond the scope of thisexact session.
But there are ways to talk witha psychiatrist.
There are certain treatmentsthat can help people who have
really extreme I'm talking aboutthe extreme anxiety where
(29:39):
they've done a lot of coaching,they've done a lot of rehearsing
.
They are just really strugglingto get there and they have to
really white knuckle stuff andit's causing a lot of distress
because maybe at work they can'tavoid these speeches and they
have to give one.
You know this many times, somany times.
Those are other situations whereI'd say you know we need that.
(30:03):
That's talking about intensityand what type of intervention we
have to look at based on how,the severity of your symptoms
and how much this could bebothering somebody.
So that's all of the stuffthat's included.
But if you bring this to yoursite like somebody like me as a
psychologist, if you bring thisto your site like somebody like
(30:24):
me is a psychologist.
There could be severaldifferent ways and I want people
to know that.
There are so many ways that wecan try to help with this and it
is something that we can treatand we can work on.
So there's different avenues Iguess I want people to know
about, not just what we'retalking about today.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
There's not one way to do it.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
There's not one way to do it.
There's not one way to do it,and so if you're a listener,
you're like oh, mine's too.
You know I'm beyond.
No, that's where I want you tosay this is something that I can
keep working on.
You know, I can get moreinformation on what other
treatments work for this.
Maybe I've tried the approachor a thought came about.
(31:07):
That's where I want people tokeep looking and keep talking to
us so that we can try to comeup with something that works for
them.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
Right.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
Right.
So I really think people aregoing to be excited that we are
talking about this.
Really think people are goingto be excited that we are
talking about this and then, um,maybe feeling like they're
ready to to do some more work inthis area.
Well, I'm sure many people areyeah I guess the other thing,
now that I'm, I want to pointout another thing that you said
(31:38):
is you said oh, I remember atime when, um, I practiced and
it really helped me.
So it sounds like there was atime when I practiced and it
really helped me.
So it sounds like there was atime when you felt like you
really got through somethinglike this public speaking.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Oh, I've made huge strides Like I'd be able to.
Like it was so difficult totalk, I would stutter, stutter,
stutter, lose my place.
What was I talking about?
And now I can at least stay ontask.
There's a lot of improvementthat needs to be done, but, yeah
, I've made a lot of progress.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Well, so there you go , right, and it sounds like you
kind of came up with your ownplan on how do I tackle this.
You know how do I?
Speaker 1 (32:16):
I mean, it's just like almost anything else that I
personally do.
I know that practice isimportant in anything you do,
and I just apply that same logicto public speaking whenever I
have to do more of that for,like, school or my career.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
Right, right, and that's, I would say that's to
those individuals out there.
That's where you start andthat's the difference between
like, well, when do I need toseek mental health for this?
And that's when it starts tothat fear of public speaking
actually starts to causedistress in your life.
(32:53):
It's distressing and it's alsointerfering with some aspect of
your either your work, yourfamily, your social.
You know there has to be somekind of thing that is it's
causing distress and someimpairment.
That's when you know thedifference between a level of
what can I tackle on my own andwhat's starting to get to that
(33:14):
realm of becoming distressfuland it's actually impairing my
functioning.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
And at that point it's good to talk to somebody
that could lead you, that couldguide you.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
That can guide you and that's letting us in, so we
can do an assessment, where Isaid we would figure out what
this is and if it's somethingthat we can treat, if it's
something that we can diagnoseand treat, and then we can help
you start a treatment plan.
And that's the piece that, um,that's where intensity comes in
(33:46):
and we can always try differenttreatments that can can help you
really um get at the symptomsand the severity.
When I say intensity, severityof this okay.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Yeah, severity, yeah, that's okay.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
I like that word more yeah, and then like um, if it's
something too.
I always think of time, like isthis chronic?
Has this been something you?
know, yes, okay, so it's, howlong has this been going on?
And those are some things thatcan really help you get to the
root cause of.
Some people may have functionedreally well with public
(34:24):
speaking, of um, some people mayhave functioned really well
with public speaking and then,all of a sudden, they start
getting extreme anxiety, wantingto avoid it, and it's out of
the blue they're like theyregress they were, well, just
something.
Something's not the same aboutthem.
Why, all of a sudden, am Iscared to do something like this
?
Speaker 1 (34:39):
and is that?
That, at that point, isprobably a good question, like
what you mentioned earlier,asking yourself like what's
going on what's changed for me?
Speaker 2 (34:46):
yeah and sometimes those aren't easy things to
answer no and then that's whereit's coming in and saying wow
boy, I was I.
I I would never get nervousabout public speaking.
Now, all of a sudden, I'mgetting real scared on, my palms
are getting sweaty, I'mstarting to forget my words and
now I really don't want to do itanymore.
(35:08):
That's not like me.
Those are all great things tostart saying.
Something definitely changedthere, and sometimes we don't
know exactly what it is.
So that's where seeking outsome therapy can definitely help
with that.
So I really want to thank youfor coming on and being brave,
(35:28):
and you did disclose a littlebit.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
Oh, that's fine.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
Yeah, and I disclosed a little bit, and so hopefully
we're encouraging our listenersto keep having these great
conversations, and I do want youto think about a time when you
anything in life where you'refeeling insecure or you're
trying to improve, just likewhat Harold did.
He was like well, there was atime when I practiced, I
(35:53):
practiced and I actually haveyes, I had to give many speeches
and then so that can really bea reminder that looking at a
time when we did do this well orwe got through this, when we
have that example in our life,can really help boost us in that
right direction.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Acknowledge the progress we've made.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
There you go, there you go.
So miigwech for tuning in andlistening.
Don't forget to download andgive us a like on social media
PS.
Social anxiety can be veryuncomfortable.
One form of it could includepublic speaking.
The first step is just to starttackling it and thinking where
(36:39):
that fear may come from.
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