May 16, 2025 • 39 mins
What happens when we release the identities we've constructed for ourselves and embrace a deeper connection to ancestral wisdom? In this soul-stirring conversation, author, speaker, and linguist James Vuklich (Turtle Mountain Band of Chippewa) shares his transformative journey from teaching the Ojibwe language to truly living it.
Whether seeking to understand Indigenous wisdom or searching for your path toward authentic living, this episode offers profound insights on releasing constructed identities, embracing our connections to each other, and finding liberation in unexpected places.
What identity might you need to release to discover who you truly are?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
The.
The following is a series ofcandid conversations.
The content is intended forinformational purposes only and
is not a substitute for seekinghelp from a mental health care
professional To learn more inforegarding additional disclaimers
, privacy policies and Bonjour,Welcome to Psychologist.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Say, a podcast where we talk about the psychology of
everyday living.
I'm your host, dr Tammy.
I'm joined today by a veryspecial guest and he is actually
sitting right across from me,so I'm so excited to have James
Vuklich here.
He is an author, a speaker anda linguist right, and he's also
(01:27):
a descendant of the TurtleMountain Band of Chippewa
Indians.
That is my tribe, and he ishere on the res in the res,
whatever the right way to say itis, but he's here.
The right way to say it is, buthe's here and we're excited to
(01:48):
have him here.
He spoke last night to ourcommunity at a wonderful event
where he was able to discuss oneof his books, the Seven
Generations and the SevenGrandfather Teachings.
So I want to welcome our guestand say, miigwech, thank you for
being part of this.
How are you doing today, james?
Speaker 1 (02:04):
and say, miigwech, thank you for being part of this
.
How are you doing today, james?
Miigwech Nmeno aya.
Thank you so much, I am reallywell, I am super happy to be
here at Turtle Mountain.
This has been a wonderful andbeautiful trip.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Okay, so tell us a little bit for our listeners.
We have people who listen tothe show because they're seeking
, they love, to engage in thisconversation about the deeper
aspects of daily living and howpsychology applies to everything
(02:33):
in life, because it's ourbehavior, it's our thoughts,
it's our emotions, it's what weshow to the world and for our
listeners.
I think, when we think aboutpsychology and having an author,
an Indigenous person here,somebody who is there's, your
specialty is words and language.
(02:55):
How do you communicate to themthis thought of being well and
how it feels to be home for you?
I guess I should say home, butI may be implying that, or what?
Tell me more.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
It's such a good point because when I started
working on this book, this waspart of, for me, what was the
ceremony of everyday life.
It wasn't something reservedfor a special time.
It was the ceremony of everydayliving and when I was seeking
out wellness because the genesisof this particular book, it
(03:34):
begins at a low point in my life.
It begins when I'm about tostep aside from teaching Ojibwe.
I'd been chronicallyunderemployed.
I had been working, but notenough.
Okay, interesting, I was workingat a loss all of the time For
years.
It had been for years and I hadreached this point where I'm
(03:54):
like, okay, I had to let go,because that was part of my
identity was teaching the Ojibwelanguage.
And I had reached this pointwhere I'm like, all right, I can
let that go.
I can still have the languagein my life every day.
I just won't teach it.
I just won't have it as my voc,as a job.
I can still read it every day,I can still speak it every day,
(04:16):
and so I decided to.
If this were my last timespeaking about something, what
would I speak about?
And it put me in this placewhere I'm like I've taught so
much grammar, so much of thelinguistic function of language.
I would share these teachingsthat elders taught me Like left
(04:37):
brain Exactly Analytical, verballanguage teaching linear.
And the meanings of the wordsyeah, what they really meant
okay, rather than how to usethem right.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
So when what I think I heard you say was you were a
teacher of the language, butthen you decided to live the
language.
Indeed Deep Isn't thattransformational, where you're
not a teacher, the language isyou and you had to step away
(05:13):
from teaching it in order toactivate that sense of self.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
It was this moment where I was dealing with what I
considered a failure, because Ihadn't achieved what I wanted to
in creating more fluentspeakers.
I had there were some studentswho did really well and then
they went out and becameexcellent speakers.
But I had a community-wide goalfor this Right and I realized I
was leaving out an importantpart of the language, and that
(05:48):
was the.
It was holistic.
I was leaving out the spiritualpart of the language, the, the
lived part of the language,rather than just teaching the
grammar and the rules.
Okay, so.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
So the psychologist in me and and this is not there,
but you know this, I want to, Iwant to let you know that we do
have guests that come on, it'snot true, but sometimes we go a
little bit deeper and it'stotally voluntary.
But I guess the psychologist inme says okay, something about
this, you had to start to livewhat you were teaching and for
(06:27):
you that felt like a failure,isn't that?
I mean, that's where I thinkmany people are struggling in
life, where we feel like, whenwe step away from something that
we thought was the reason whywe exist and we step in to the
unknown of, like a spiritualcalling or passion, um, what
(06:51):
starts to happen to youridentity and what pushes you
forward without a measure of,like westernized success, such
as train, this many fluent, youknow, the community, those,
those standardized measures of.
So how do you measure yoursuccess now?
Speaker 1 (07:11):
that you're in this, you're living the language
you're, yeah, when it hadchanged.
It needed to change in orderfor me to do what I'm doing
today.
So at that point in my life, uh, you know, my, my relationships
were frayed as well.
Uh, I was not successful atwhat I can, at what I wanted to
do with teaching the languageagain, being chronically
(07:32):
underemployed.
Uh, my frayed relationships,and I had reached this point
where I just began letting go,uh, there, this.
So I had let go of, you know,being the son, I let go of being
the brother, I let go of myopinions of what that meant to
(07:53):
be.
Okay, all of that, I had letthat go.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Just to be, Is there an Ojibwe or any phrase that
says to let something go in theway that it's not like dropping
something literally.
It is indeed dropping it.
Oh, interesting.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
And it is one of I'm working on it for this next part
of my latest book To make anoffering in Yojibwe language is
bagichige, okay, and if I'msaying I'm setting tobacco down,
I am bagitana, I am releasinghim or her, I am setting him or
her down.
And so in Ojibwe asema tobaccois animate, so I'm releasing
(08:36):
that.
And it struck me that, as I'mreleasing that, I am letting go
of all of those things.
I've asked for help.
I'm not holding on to thosedesires anymore.
I am not holding on to my fears, I'm releasing it.
I am letting that go, I amsetting that down and letting
(08:57):
what needs to happen take place.
I don't need to carry my fears,I don't need to carry my
ambitions.
I can release it at that momentand when you look at to make an
offering in Ojibwe, it'sbagichige.
It is to release and to let go.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
To release and to offer, and I think because we
tend to in society takebeautiful concepts and ideas and
put language you know like dropsomething.
And that's part of what I thinkis so healing about any
(09:33):
language, and it's sad becauseI'm Indigenous, but Ojibwe,
michif, those are foreignlanguages to me, but I see the
beauty in why they had to bedescriptive, but how the use of
our current English can justreally hinder our level of how
(09:57):
we deal with and cope with life,and so I think that's something
that I think is so beautifulabout our Indigenous culture,
indigenous people.
No matter what language we'respeaking, we can learn these
connections and on that deeplevel of our ancestors had to
(10:19):
come up with these terms, notbecause they wanted to impress
our needs, they were describinghow they were living.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Yes, and that letting go that's a very, it's a human
necessity.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
I think to a realistic life, like I did not
need to carry all of thosethings with me big ones and I
work with people and when youhave to let go of a relationship
(10:58):
that you and putting it down orreleasing versus I'm
disconnecting, or you know thatreally kind of rigid where we
need to move away from somebodythat we care about, that we
thought was nurturing orfulfilling us, but yet we
(11:19):
realize there was somethinghurtful or dysfunctional about
that person so we have torelease it.
Let it go in a way that makessense to both parties, and I
heard you say some of that.
I think I even heard you say,like you had to release some of
your obligations, maybe asbrother or can can.
Did I get that right?
Speaker 1 (11:40):
I was actually releasing my opinions of myself
in what I thought people saw meas I had this cultivated image
of ego of who I wanted Jamesmcglitch kagegabo to be, and
part of the fear is peopleseeing you in another way, such
as um, which was for me this,and that took place, like during
(12:05):
this period of yeah being forme I.
I had considered it a very lowpoint, but there was a moment of
self-realization where I hadbeen able to observe myself
using meditation, usingawareness.
(12:25):
And as I began to let go of someof those obligations that I
perceived that I had created andthat I had imposed on myself.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
And based on ego, our thought of how we should be
performing versus or the waypeople see me.
In psychology, a lot of timesthat's called impression
management.
Okay, so I may, and this iseverybody.
It doesn't mean it's the morewe're aware of it or the more
(12:53):
we're with somebody who's usingit.
It's really a sign of I'mworking really hard to show up
the way I think I should and theway people want to see me.
But it's work because that'snot me, and so behind closed
doors I am somebody else me andso behind closed doors I am
(13:17):
somebody else.
But nobody but maybe who'sclosest to me gets exposed to
this person, and this person canbe hurtful, they could be
impatient, they could be rude,they could be detached from love
, they could be overly needy allof these things that are real
parts of human emotion andbehavior that people have
learned to feel more guilt andshame about.
So they don't show the world upthough that that fear of I
(13:55):
might let down my guard andsomebody's going to see this,
maybe this ugly piece of me, andhow could I ever go back to
being, in their eyes, thisperson I built myself up to be,
or that I think they want to seethat's, that's all it might.
We're all in the.
Is this kind of where and thatwas it.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Because, again, uh, because I tried so hard with
becoming a professor and, like,I had reached this point where I
, again I and it's so weird tothink about because this is like
15 years ago Okay, this takesplace, but this profound
transformation that I needed,right To happen, right, but
(14:31):
again that kind of it's thatpseudo self that, again, I had
created to let that go, torelease those self-imposed
obligations, self-imposed.
The moment I had that, therewas this moment of liberation
from that Okay, that okay, evenif I, you know, in my opinion,
(14:53):
was not the good brother or notthe good husband or not the
Ojibwe teacher anymore, I wouldstill be James.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Right.
It's a really, really bigidentity shift of if, um, if I
was not, and I and this.
This is a really hard um thingfor people to get to, because in
everyday life we become our,our titles.
(15:24):
It's the first, I mean.
What happens when you meetsomebody new and you introduce
yourself?
Hiames and then what's the nextquestion out of this stranger's
mouth to you?
Speaker 1 (15:36):
yeah, what do you?
Speaker 2 (15:36):
do.
What do you do?
Not, who are you, but what doyou do?
And uh, another question thatmaybe some of us indigenous or
people of color may get is kindof like what, what are you?
Speaker 1 (15:55):
And yeah, again, to be able to let those go, was
this moment of liberation whichled me to the point where I was
like, okay, if you are not aprofessor, James the Ojibwe
professor, then what would youtalk about?
What would you do?
And if it was my last time out,I would talk about this idea of
(16:16):
seven generations, Okay, andI'd talk about the grandfather
teachings.
Because when I had let all ofthat other stuff go, when I
sought out direction, when Isought out how can I lead
Mino-Pamatsuan a good life, thatbecame my goal.
It was no longer to be James,the image I had created and
(16:36):
wanted to fulfill.
It was how can I lead a goodlife?
And for once I was like, okay,I can get behind that 100%.
There's no contradiction, itworks in alignment with what I
want to do and how I want to actworks in alignment with what I
want to do and how I want to act.
(16:57):
And the idea that my actionsare affecting all of my
relatives, not just now, butseven generations from now.
Right, which I hadn't, which ishard a hard perspective when
you're just cultivating thatimage of yourself, that ego that
you were projecting to everyone.
All of a sudden, I'm like, oh,that is an illusion, that was an
illusion all along.
Now that you were projecting toeveryone, all of a sudden I'm
like, oh, that is an illusion,that was an illusion all along.
(17:18):
Now that you understand that,what do you want to do?
And I was like oh, I want tolead a good life.
That will be pretty much myonly goal from now on.
Well, how will I do that?
It'd be the grandfatherteachings.
And when I thought of whatthose words actually meant, I
went back to basics and Istarted reading.
I went back to basics and Istarted reading.
I went back to a time when Iwas happy.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Oh yeah, when I was 18.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Yay and I was free and I was reading philosophy and
investigating spirituality.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Free from what.
I mean listeners probably wantto know.
If I want to know, I think ourlisteners are going wait.
This is so.
We love it, but free from what.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Free from all of those ambitions in creating that
image of who I thought JamesKagegawa was, Because you're 18.
You were just creating that atthat moment.
You were investigating.
You're really.
You're brand new.
You're in the Ojibwe language,Oshkinawe.
You're like a new man.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
At 18?
.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
At that age, from probably 14 to about 20, you'd
be considered like a young man,a new man.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
A new beginning.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
And so you're about.
You're no longer a child.
Okay, you're not maybe readyfor all of the responsibilities
of an adult Adult, raising afamily, looking of an adult
adult.
Raising a family is lookingafter people, caring right,
caring for a family.
That's an awesome enterprisefor anyone.
So maybe at that age, this is,this is when you're new, and so
when I began, I went back thereand I started noticing, reading
(18:47):
teachings and even unwittinglysaying, oh, oh, that's like the
Ojibwe teaching the old man justshared with me.
I remember hearing somethingsimilar to reading the Tao Te
Ching and seeing teachings thatreally resonated with elders
that had shared with me in theOjibwe language and I thought
(19:08):
wait, why am I looking out therefor direction I'm seeking to?
lead a good life, seeking to bea good relative, acting in a way
that's positively beneficial,not just for me now, but for
someone seven generations down.
And then I realized ah, thatwould be the grandfather
teachings, it would be thesacred law.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Can you explain for our listeners who are not
familiar and this is ourIndigenous, you know, this is
our teachings that we're tryingto reclaim, we're trying to
learn, mean in terms of going tothose teachings and just in a
real sense of like, how can theyunderstand what some of those
(20:01):
are?
Speaker 1 (20:04):
The seven grandfather teachings are teachings that
have been passed down from timeimmemorial as a way of leading a
good life, and that's what wecall Minobamatsu.
It's a life of peace, it's alife of balance, it's a life
without conflict with yourenvironment or with yourself.
(20:25):
With yourself.
It's a life withoutcontradiction, where you're
saying one thing and then doinganother.
It's a holistic life.
Okay, a holy life if you willsaying one thing and then doing
another.
It's a holistic life, a holylife if you will.
And the grandfather teachingswhich have been passed down, and
there are a number of originstories from them, with
different particular religioussocieties.
For me, I wanted to not focuson a particular religious
(20:48):
society, but rather than themeaning of the words, the
meaning of the teachings, and sothat's when I began using my
linguistic background to reallyinvestigate what was inside,
breaking the right.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
What is inside?
What's what is inside of theword Uh, and that's you know, uh
, you do the social media,ojibwe word of the day.
It was how many of us in yourcommunity came to find you.
And you know, many times I wentto and listened and found a lot
(21:25):
of healing in what you weresaying in terms of breaking down
this word that I may havedifficulty pronouncing and then,
of course, some shame that I'mhaving this difficulty.
Yet, focusing on the, and to meit was more about the
storytelling that you did, aboutthe word, and that's where, for
(21:48):
me and it's interesting becausewe both kind of have a similar
thing that was kind of in ourlives, and mine was about 14
years ago, so it was interesting, and that was a part of your
book where I went.
Oh, interesting, he had somekind of suffering where it was
(22:09):
so much suffering that you hadto do, you had to explore
something else, and that reallyresonated with me and so many
others who have createdmasterpieces and not to be like
an achievement, but went forwardand created without knowing
(22:29):
what they were going to create,but they could feel it inside of
them and it usually comes fromsome kind of suffering that was
so intense and deep that itallowed them to access something
within themselves.
They was always there theydidn't know about, and when they
start to unleash it, it guidesthem, and it can feel very
(22:52):
frightening because it's notwesternized, it's not academic.
Sometimes you don't even knowif it's spiritual.
It just feels like somethingthat is so deeply inside of you
but yet connected to everythingaround you.
It can feel very isolating too.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
And the isolation part.
It was welcome.
I had become fine with myself,so I was no longer lonely.
I was never lonely, in fact,because I had found peace.
It was this moment where, usingthose teachings, I was able to
(23:34):
really find that moment of peacewhere, again, I was fine with
the universe.
The universe and all of myrelatives were always around me.
There was no reason to belonely Because you're not alone,
right, exactly Ever.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
And that's one thing our producer Harold, he shared.
He was at your talk last nightbut he shared that exact what
we're talking about now.
When you did the sevengenerations and your ancestors
and he said it was just reallydeep.
He said how we are, ourancestors, they're not in the
(24:08):
past, they're us, they're withinus, they're us, they're within
us.
And so when you said you'renever alone, uh, I think
listeners can that.
That's something where theythey can't see that.
They look around and go I amalone, there's nobody next to me
, you know I.
But instead it's like, well, Iam of my people, I'm of this
land, I'm of this god.
(24:29):
Whatever they're part of it'sinside of of them.
So you're never alone.
And that's the healing part ofbreaking down a word and just
sharing it in form ofcommunication and talking, just
like we are.
It's the storytelling thatpeople get these light bulb
moments and can really learnfrom Anishinaabe and
(24:54):
spirituality, culture, whateverit is.
It's taking time to reallylisten to somebody else's story.
And then how can I build off ofthat in my own life?
Speaker 1 (25:06):
And that was part of the words, was I?
When I began looking in themorphemes, the small parts of
the words, I was hearing storiesthat our ancestors, I think,
are sharing with us, and theyembedded in the words themselves
.
All of a sudden I'm listeningto them and you know I'm not the
only person who you know.
(25:26):
You mentioned the suffering ofit.
That word Gush Kingdom.
It means sadness, it can meansorrow.
I think it could even meansuffering.
And when you look at it it hasan gushk which is to be sealed,
to be closed off, An andum tothink you are closed off Because
(25:49):
you can only think it.
You are never in fact shut off,cut off from all of your
relatives.
You can think you are and it isthat thought that makes you
suffer.
Okay, I were able to change theway I'm approaching this, able
(26:15):
to change my thought that all ofa sudden again, I'm not lonely,
I am here with those relatives.
I'm not just thinkingexclusively of me, I'm thinking
of all of my relatives.
And it is a liberating thought,it is a liberating perspective.
And when I started looking atthose words, even just breaking
them down Again, I would hearstory after story of people who,
(26:36):
not just 50 years ago, 100years ago, 800 years ago,
thousand years ago, people whowent through the human
experience went through this aswell.
I too felt sorrow.
I too felt a moment ofsuffering where I could not
continue the way that I am now.
Something will have toradically change in my life.
When I went through thatexperience, I embedded my story
(27:00):
in this word, in this teaching,and it passed down to another
generation and anothergeneration, so that when you get
there and you will, if you'reliving the human life, if you're
having a human experience,you're going to have this at one
time You're going to haveintense suffering, You're going
to have sadness.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
Or several times right.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Several times, indeed , you will feel loss, you will
feel loneliness.
We've felt that too.
This is how we dealt with it,and for me to have a moment to
share those words with peoplewas when I posed that question
what's the last thing you woulddo in the language If this were
done at the end of the semester,you're going to step away and
(27:38):
get another job.
What would you talk about?
It would be those stories, andthat was the genesis of this
book.
The first time I did it, I waslike well, I did it, that's
exactly what I wanted to do.
It was at um, it was with agroup of teachers and
instructors and somehow the nextday everyone was like, oh wow,
(27:59):
Everyone loved that presentation.
I again, I had that desire toinfluence people, that desire to
present that image of what Iconsidered James Kaku.
I'd let that go and, uh, tohear that people enjoyed hearing
about the grandfather teachingswas a pleasant surprise.
But I thought, well, maybe I'llcontinue speaking about this
(28:26):
Because it also brought me greatjoy.
There are times I feel like I'mgetting away with it because
this is so much fun.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
So that almost I mean it almost sounds like not
imposter syndrome, but I mean Ican relate to that feeling of oh
, this speak, I would do thisfor free, I cannot.
I almost feel guilty like ohboy, I cannot.
(28:54):
I almost feel guilty like ohboy, and not.
I think most people would loveto leave work or their job or
whatever, however their life,whatever they make money doing,
having that kind of guilt of wow, I just totally got paid for
something that I can't believethey paid me for and I think
(29:16):
that's that good fortune.
And I mean I'm also, you know,I know our traditional ways, I'm
learning all of the time andI'm also Catholic and very
spiritual, and I remember itjust really made me think of
that when, because speaking isone of the things that I love to
(29:39):
do, it comes natural, doesn't?
You know, trying to prep for itis more work than me just
getting up and speaking.
But I almost didn't do itbecause it felt like that, like
this can't be, it shouldn't bethat easy.
And somebody asked me that whenI was in adoration, it was a
volunteer who was and she saidwell, what would you do if you
(30:01):
could?
Just if you could speak topeople just like with this,
without any expectations of you,need to have these linear
objectives and goals.
And I said I think I would bethe happiest I've ever been.
And then she said, well, whywouldn't?
Why aren't you doing that?
And I said I think I would bethe happiest I've ever been.
And then she said, well, whyweren't you doing that?
And I said, well, that doesn'tsound like.
That doesn't make sense to me.
I should be suffering.
And she said God wants you tobe happy.
(30:28):
It was again.
It's like a moment where areyou kidding me?
So why do we run away fromthings that feel so good or have
even guilt for?
That's part of like having agift, but then owning the gift
and using the gift is that'swhere it says.
I think some of us are really.
Obviously I'm struggling withthis and maybe I'd sometimes, of
(30:50):
course, you were too.
Am I getting on something here?
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Well it was.
I recall I was listening toJack White.
Well, famously he's a veryfamous musician but loving loves
to play the blues, and it wasin an interview where he's like
I can't believe I'm getting awaywith this, Like getting on
(31:18):
stage, traveling, playing theblues and people showing up and
loving it.
And I thought that's exactlyhow it feels when I get a chance
to speak about the grandfatherteachings, when I get a chance
to share, like a word that I'veheard and that I've looked into,
and all of a sudden I've hearda voice from it could be even
thousands of years, it could befrom even a few hundred years,
sharing this beautiful moment ofinsight, All right, and that I
get to share this with peoplewho I'll probably never meet or
(31:39):
see or visit with.
When I do a small video andpost it online, it ends up going
all around the world.
So those moments for me,they're really joyful and it
becomes I never want to forgetthe gratitude for that that me
wait to win Des Moines.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
That humility even right.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Humility.
That, oh wow, what a specialgift this is.
How much fun this is.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
You know, and you really.
If I just want to give ourlisteners a bit, because they're
not here and we were not, thisis all audio, but I wish you
could see James right now, andthis is genuine because he's
been here for a couple of days,but he's very humble and this
(32:26):
energy and it doesn't meanyou're just so full of
positivity that you know italmost like well, where does he
get this from?
It's based in a really groundedsense of I know the struggling,
I know how this is and yet Ican still look at life this way,
and it's it to me feelsachievable, then, for our people
(32:48):
, and maybe not just our people,but I'm sure all sorts of
people relate and who wouldlisten to you and can learn from
you.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
I, you know, and I have to take and give credit to
elders who taught me, Becausethey went through the worst that
colonization has to offer.
Their spirituality had to gounderground, their spirituality
had to go underground.
So many of them faced physical,mental, emotional, spiritual
and sexual abuse in theirlifetimes.
(33:22):
It was the worst thatcolonization has to offer.
Yet I had met people who wereable to be grateful On a daily
basis.
I had met people who were ableto laugh, to joke.
I noticed yesterday, withAnishinaabeg and Indigenous
people, you're always going toyour laughter always going to
your teasing and it's reallygood fun, and I was like that's
(33:44):
the example I want to see.
Despite having faced that, tosay Mino Kishigata, it is a good
day, nice.
Despite that, I am stillseeking out a good life, I'm
still seeking out joy, I'm stillseeking out health, and that's
really that became the sourcefor what I'm discussing now.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
Wonderful.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
And it's transformed my life.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
Well, I know I'm truly inspired.
I'm a big fan and I think thatI got to witness what your work
does in a community and to seeour.
I got a message last night I'llshare with you.
After your talk, one of myfriends sent me a picture of her
(34:31):
young grandson and he's holdingup your book.
Sent me a picture of her younggrandson and he's holding up
your book and she said we arehome learning the language on
this book, together with James'book, and it's a children's book
that some of our young peoplein the audience got last night
from James.
It's Wisdom Weavers andExploring the Ojibwe Language.
And so for her to send thatpicture exploring the Ojibwe
(34:55):
language, and so for her to sendthat picture and she's touched.
They both left inspired andthen she messaged again and said
he wants to write his own booknow and I said this is why we do
this.
It's late at night, we'reexhausted, we're tired.
It was a busy, great,productive day.
I looked at my daughter andsaid despite all the fatigue,
(35:17):
the planning, this, you know thestress and when you get to
leave something in yourcommunity and see what the
impact that it's had it planteda seed, and for someone to even
take time and give that feedback.
You know that that good life,that that they even knew how
meaningful that could be, and Iwanted to make sure to share
(35:38):
that with you because we all hada moment where we're driving
home and we all got to feel verygrateful and good with what we
helped do that day and what wegot to experience.
So miigwech for that.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Miigwech and I'm sure , sure viewers can't see but the
smile on my face.
It's ear to ear.
That is exactly why I worked onthat book was hopefully to
facilitate a moment of a familyyep, of people just going over
the language together.
Right, that was what I did withmy son in the book yes, I see
(36:12):
that you have a dedication tohim.
It was really special because ittakes place during the pandemic
.
That's not in the book, but Iwas looking for something to do
with my young son now that theschools had shut down and I was
like you know what?
We're going to go get some redwillow shut down.
(36:34):
And I was like you know what?
We're going to go get some redwillow, I'm going to harvest
some, show you how to maketraditional tobacco, and we'll
make a dream catcher too andthat I had an opportunity to
write a book that MarcusTrujillo did an amazing job
illustrating, that I can give tomy son that he probably won't
remember too well because he wasfive, six at the time.
Oh he, he'll remember it and nowhe'll be able to look at this,
(36:56):
maybe like that very weird timein everyone's life that it's,
it's recorded and uh, I'm reallyhappy that there was another
family that got to do what theplan was oh yes because I'm
reading books with him, and itwas how about if people could
look at that, maybe use theirphone with a QR code and share a
(37:18):
word with one another?
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
To look at our culture, to celebrate that, and
right before bedtime, right andthen.
That is the goal.
So thank you for sharing thatwith me.
Yes, you give your friend myvery best.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
And thank you, jennifer, I will give her a
shout out.
Jennifer champagne is my veryclose one of my best friends, uh
, who did uh come and supportthe event and share that
information, so I'm glad I gotto pass that along to you.
So, for our listeners, I thinkwe're just about ready to, even
(37:53):
though I would love to sit here.
We could talk probably for days,maybe one day, we'll just do a
live like 24 hour, just kind ofkeep talking, but I really, is
there any last thoughts that youhave that you want to find you
(38:14):
and where they can find you on?
Maybe if you have your websiteor something, a project that
you'd like them to know about?
Speaker 1 (38:21):
Well, you can always find all of my social media, a
newsletter where I like to keepin touch with people about what
I'm doing at my website,wwwjamesvuklichcom.
And if you'd like to reallyinvestigate the grandfather
teachings, the Anishinaabe,ojibwe, chippewa, nakowai Soto
(38:45):
perspective of seven generations, you can always check out the
book the Seven Generations andSeven Grandfather Teachings.
Or, if you want to hear me talkabout it, I do an audible
version of it as well.
And the fact that I had a chanceto talk about this with you
this afternoon.
The generosity and kindnessyou've shown me in getting me to
(39:07):
Turtle Mountain,nicanagwadjewing, to a
homecoming.
This was a really special,special event for me.
And to have that moment to say,miigwech pizindele, thank you
all for listening.
It's, it's heartfelt and Ireally mean it.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
Miigwech pizindele, thanks for listening, miigwech,
and that's just part of what wedo here.
In our culture, we're we'retaught to you make people feel
at home because this is part ofyour home and we share, we open
and we want to give and letpeople know that we're all here
(39:44):
to help each other, heal andsupport and celebrate.
So you definitely deserve thatcelebration.
Okay, so that will wrap it up,ps.
Life can be tough, it can feelout of balance, but if we're
taking time to focus just everyday on looking at one way that
we can move towards living agood life, miigwech.
The.
The following is a series ofcandid conversations.
The content is intended forinformational purposes only and
is not a substitute for seekinghelp from a mental health care
professional To learn more inforegarding additional disclaimers
, privacy policies and Bonjour,Welcome to Psychologist.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Say, a podcast where we talk about the psychology of
everyday living.
I'm your host, dr Tammy.
I'm joined today by a veryspecial guest and he is actually
sitting right across from me,so I'm so excited to have James
Vuklich here.
He is an author, a speaker anda linguist right, and he's also
(01:27):
a descendant of the TurtleMountain Band of Chippewa
Indians.
That is my tribe, and he ishere on the res in the res,
whatever the right way to say itis, but he's here.
The right way to say it is, buthe's here and we're excited to
(01:48):
have him here.
He spoke last night to ourcommunity at a wonderful event
where he was able to discuss oneof his books, the Seven
Generations and the SevenGrandfather Teachings.
So I want to welcome our guestand say, miigwech, thank you for
being part of this.
How are you doing today, james?
Speaker 1 (02:04):
and say, miigwech, thank you for being part of this
.
How are you doing today, james?
Miigwech Nmeno aya.
Thank you so much, I am reallywell, I am super happy to be
here at Turtle Mountain.
This has been a wonderful andbeautiful trip.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
Okay, so tell us a little bit for our listeners.
We have people who listen tothe show because they're seeking
, they love, to engage in thisconversation about the deeper
aspects of daily living and howpsychology applies to everything
(02:33):
in life, because it's ourbehavior, it's our thoughts,
it's our emotions, it's what weshow to the world and for our
listeners.
I think, when we think aboutpsychology and having an author,
an Indigenous person here,somebody who is there's, your
specialty is words and language.
(02:55):
How do you communicate to themthis thought of being well and
how it feels to be home for you?
I guess I should say home, butI may be implying that, or what?
Tell me more.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
It's such a good point because when I started
working on this book, this waspart of, for me, what was the
ceremony of everyday life.
It wasn't something reservedfor a special time.
It was the ceremony of everydayliving and when I was seeking
out wellness because the genesisof this particular book, it
(03:34):
begins at a low point in my life.
It begins when I'm about tostep aside from teaching Ojibwe.
I'd been chronicallyunderemployed.
I had been working, but notenough.
Okay, interesting, I was workingat a loss all of the time For
years.
It had been for years and I hadreached this point where I'm
(03:54):
like, okay, I had to let go,because that was part of my
identity was teaching the Ojibwelanguage.
And I had reached this pointwhere I'm like, all right, I can
let that go.
I can still have the languagein my life every day.
I just won't teach it.
I just won't have it as my voc,as a job.
I can still read it every day,I can still speak it every day,
(04:16):
and so I decided to.
If this were my last timespeaking about something, what
would I speak about?
And it put me in this placewhere I'm like I've taught so
much grammar, so much of thelinguistic function of language.
I would share these teachingsthat elders taught me Like left
(04:37):
brain Exactly Analytical, verballanguage teaching linear.
And the meanings of the wordsyeah, what they really meant
okay, rather than how to usethem right.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
So when what I think I heard you say was you were a
teacher of the language, butthen you decided to live the
language.
Indeed Deep Isn't thattransformational, where you're
not a teacher, the language isyou and you had to step away
(05:13):
from teaching it in order toactivate that sense of self.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
It was this moment where I was dealing with what I
considered a failure, because Ihadn't achieved what I wanted to
in creating more fluentspeakers.
I had there were some studentswho did really well and then
they went out and becameexcellent speakers.
But I had a community-wide goalfor this Right and I realized I
was leaving out an importantpart of the language, and that
(05:48):
was the.
It was holistic.
I was leaving out the spiritualpart of the language, the, the
lived part of the language,rather than just teaching the
grammar and the rules.
Okay, so.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
So the psychologist in me and and this is not there,
but you know this, I want to, Iwant to let you know that we do
have guests that come on, it'snot true, but sometimes we go a
little bit deeper and it'stotally voluntary.
But I guess the psychologist inme says okay, something about
this, you had to start to livewhat you were teaching and for
(06:27):
you that felt like a failure,isn't that?
I mean, that's where I thinkmany people are struggling in
life, where we feel like, whenwe step away from something that
we thought was the reason whywe exist and we step in to the
unknown of, like a spiritualcalling or passion, um, what
(06:51):
starts to happen to youridentity and what pushes you
forward without a measure of,like westernized success, such
as train, this many fluent, youknow, the community, those,
those standardized measures of.
So how do you measure yoursuccess now?
Speaker 1 (07:11):
that you're in this, you're living the language
you're, yeah, when it hadchanged.
It needed to change in orderfor me to do what I'm doing
today.
So at that point in my life, uh, you know, my, my relationships
were frayed as well.
Uh, I was not successful atwhat I can, at what I wanted to
do with teaching the languageagain, being chronically
(07:32):
underemployed.
Uh, my frayed relationships,and I had reached this point
where I just began letting go,uh, there, this.
So I had let go of, you know,being the son, I let go of being
the brother, I let go of myopinions of what that meant to
(07:53):
be.
Okay, all of that, I had letthat go.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
Just to be, Is there an Ojibwe or any phrase that
says to let something go in theway that it's not like dropping
something literally.
It is indeed dropping it.
Oh, interesting.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
And it is one of I'm working on it for this next part
of my latest book To make anoffering in Yojibwe language is
bagichige, okay, and if I'msaying I'm setting tobacco down,
I am bagitana, I am releasinghim or her, I am setting him or
her down.
And so in Ojibwe asema tobaccois animate, so I'm releasing
(08:36):
that.
And it struck me that, as I'mreleasing that, I am letting go
of all of those things.
I've asked for help.
I'm not holding on to thosedesires anymore.
I am not holding on to my fears, I'm releasing it.
I am letting that go, I amsetting that down and letting
(08:57):
what needs to happen take place.
I don't need to carry my fears,I don't need to carry my
ambitions.
I can release it at that momentand when you look at to make an
offering in Ojibwe, it'sbagichige.
It is to release and to let go.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
To release and to offer, and I think because we
tend to in society takebeautiful concepts and ideas and
put language you know like dropsomething.
And that's part of what I thinkis so healing about any
(09:33):
language, and it's sad becauseI'm Indigenous, but Ojibwe,
michif, those are foreignlanguages to me, but I see the
beauty in why they had to bedescriptive, but how the use of
our current English can justreally hinder our level of how
(09:57):
we deal with and cope with life,and so I think that's something
that I think is so beautifulabout our Indigenous culture,
indigenous people.
No matter what language we'respeaking, we can learn these
connections and on that deeplevel of our ancestors had to
(10:19):
come up with these terms, notbecause they wanted to impress
our needs, they were describinghow they were living.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Yes, and that letting go that's a very, it's a human
necessity.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
I think to a realistic life, like I did not
need to carry all of thosethings with me big ones and I
work with people and when youhave to let go of a relationship
(10:58):
that you and putting it down orreleasing versus I'm
disconnecting, or you know thatreally kind of rigid where we
need to move away from somebodythat we care about, that we
thought was nurturing orfulfilling us, but yet we
(11:19):
realize there was somethinghurtful or dysfunctional about
that person so we have torelease it.
Let it go in a way that makessense to both parties, and I
heard you say some of that.
I think I even heard you say,like you had to release some of
your obligations, maybe asbrother or can can.
Did I get that right?
Speaker 1 (11:40):
I was actually releasing my opinions of myself
in what I thought people saw meas I had this cultivated image
of ego of who I wanted Jamesmcglitch kagegabo to be, and
part of the fear is peopleseeing you in another way, such
as um, which was for me this,and that took place, like during
(12:05):
this period of yeah being forme I.
I had considered it a very lowpoint, but there was a moment of
self-realization where I hadbeen able to observe myself
using meditation, usingawareness.
(12:25):
And as I began to let go of someof those obligations that I
perceived that I had created andthat I had imposed on myself.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
And based on ego, our thought of how we should be
performing versus or the waypeople see me.
In psychology, a lot of timesthat's called impression
management.
Okay, so I may, and this iseverybody.
It doesn't mean it's the morewe're aware of it or the more
(12:53):
we're with somebody who's usingit.
It's really a sign of I'mworking really hard to show up
the way I think I should and theway people want to see me.
But it's work because that'snot me, and so behind closed
doors I am somebody else me andso behind closed doors I am
(13:17):
somebody else.
But nobody but maybe who'sclosest to me gets exposed to
this person, and this person canbe hurtful, they could be
impatient, they could be rude,they could be detached from love
, they could be overly needy allof these things that are real
parts of human emotion andbehavior that people have
learned to feel more guilt andshame about.
So they don't show the world upthough that that fear of I
(13:55):
might let down my guard andsomebody's going to see this,
maybe this ugly piece of me, andhow could I ever go back to
being, in their eyes, thisperson I built myself up to be,
or that I think they want to seethat's, that's all it might.
We're all in the.
Is this kind of where and thatwas it.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Because, again, uh, because I tried so hard with
becoming a professor and, like,I had reached this point where I
, again I and it's so weird tothink about because this is like
15 years ago Okay, this takesplace, but this profound
transformation that I needed,right To happen, right, but
(14:31):
again that kind of it's thatpseudo self that, again, I had
created to let that go, torelease those self-imposed
obligations, self-imposed.
The moment I had that, therewas this moment of liberation
from that Okay, that okay, evenif I, you know, in my opinion,
(14:53):
was not the good brother or notthe good husband or not the
Ojibwe teacher anymore, I wouldstill be James.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Right.
It's a really, really bigidentity shift of if, um, if I
was not, and I and this.
This is a really hard um thingfor people to get to, because in
everyday life we become our,our titles.
(15:24):
It's the first, I mean.
What happens when you meetsomebody new and you introduce
yourself?
Hiames and then what's the nextquestion out of this stranger's
mouth to you?
Speaker 1 (15:36):
yeah, what do you?
Speaker 2 (15:36):
do.
What do you do?
Not, who are you, but what doyou do?
And uh, another question thatmaybe some of us indigenous or
people of color may get is kindof like what, what are you?
Speaker 1 (15:55):
And yeah, again, to be able to let those go, was
this moment of liberation whichled me to the point where I was
like, okay, if you are not aprofessor, James the Ojibwe
professor, then what would youtalk about?
What would you do?
And if it was my last time out,I would talk about this idea of
(16:16):
seven generations, Okay, andI'd talk about the grandfather
teachings.
Because when I had let all ofthat other stuff go, when I
sought out direction, when Isought out how can I lead
Mino-Pamatsuan a good life, thatbecame my goal.
It was no longer to be James,the image I had created and
(16:36):
wanted to fulfill.
It was how can I lead a goodlife?
And for once I was like, okay,I can get behind that 100%.
There's no contradiction, itworks in alignment with what I
want to do and how I want to actworks in alignment with what I
want to do and how I want to act.
(16:57):
And the idea that my actionsare affecting all of my
relatives, not just now, butseven generations from now.
Right, which I hadn't, which ishard a hard perspective when
you're just cultivating thatimage of yourself, that ego that
you were projecting to everyone.
All of a sudden, I'm like, oh,that is an illusion, that was an
illusion all along.
Now that you were projecting toeveryone, all of a sudden I'm
like, oh, that is an illusion,that was an illusion all along.
(17:18):
Now that you understand that,what do you want to do?
And I was like oh, I want tolead a good life.
That will be pretty much myonly goal from now on.
Well, how will I do that?
It'd be the grandfatherteachings.
And when I thought of whatthose words actually meant, I
went back to basics and Istarted reading.
I went back to basics and Istarted reading.
I went back to a time when Iwas happy.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Oh yeah, when I was 18.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Yay and I was free and I was reading philosophy and
investigating spirituality.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
Free from what.
I mean listeners probably wantto know.
If I want to know, I think ourlisteners are going wait.
This is so.
We love it, but free from what.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Free from all of those ambitions in creating that
image of who I thought JamesKagegawa was, Because you're 18.
You were just creating that atthat moment.
You were investigating.
You're really.
You're brand new.
You're in the Ojibwe language,Oshkinawe.
You're like a new man.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
At 18?
.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
At that age, from probably 14 to about 20, you'd
be considered like a young man,a new man.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
A new beginning.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
And so you're about.
You're no longer a child.
Okay, you're not maybe readyfor all of the responsibilities
of an adult Adult, raising afamily, looking of an adult
adult.
Raising a family is lookingafter people, caring right,
caring for a family.
That's an awesome enterprisefor anyone.
So maybe at that age, this is,this is when you're new, and so
when I began, I went back thereand I started noticing, reading
(18:47):
teachings and even unwittinglysaying, oh, oh, that's like the
Ojibwe teaching the old man justshared with me.
I remember hearing somethingsimilar to reading the Tao Te
Ching and seeing teachings thatreally resonated with elders
that had shared with me in theOjibwe language and I thought
(19:08):
wait, why am I looking out therefor direction I'm seeking to?
lead a good life, seeking to bea good relative, acting in a way
that's positively beneficial,not just for me now, but for
someone seven generations down.
And then I realized ah, thatwould be the grandfather
teachings, it would be thesacred law.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Can you explain for our listeners who are not
familiar and this is ourIndigenous, you know, this is
our teachings that we're tryingto reclaim, we're trying to
learn, mean in terms of going tothose teachings and just in a
real sense of like, how can theyunderstand what some of those
(20:01):
are?
Speaker 1 (20:04):
The seven grandfather teachings are teachings that
have been passed down from timeimmemorial as a way of leading a
good life, and that's what wecall Minobamatsu.
It's a life of peace, it's alife of balance, it's a life
without conflict with yourenvironment or with yourself.
(20:25):
With yourself.
It's a life withoutcontradiction, where you're
saying one thing and then doinganother.
It's a holistic life.
Okay, a holy life if you willsaying one thing and then doing
another.
It's a holistic life, a holylife if you will.
And the grandfather teachingswhich have been passed down, and
there are a number of originstories from them, with
different particular religioussocieties.
For me, I wanted to not focuson a particular religious
(20:48):
society, but rather than themeaning of the words, the
meaning of the teachings, and sothat's when I began using my
linguistic background to reallyinvestigate what was inside,
breaking the right.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
What is inside?
What's what is inside of theword Uh, and that's you know, uh
, you do the social media,ojibwe word of the day.
It was how many of us in yourcommunity came to find you.
And you know, many times I wentto and listened and found a lot
(21:25):
of healing in what you weresaying in terms of breaking down
this word that I may havedifficulty pronouncing and then,
of course, some shame that I'mhaving this difficulty.
Yet, focusing on the, and to meit was more about the
storytelling that you did, aboutthe word, and that's where, for
(21:48):
me and it's interesting becausewe both kind of have a similar
thing that was kind of in ourlives, and mine was about 14
years ago, so it was interesting, and that was a part of your
book where I went.
Oh, interesting, he had somekind of suffering where it was
(22:09):
so much suffering that you hadto do, you had to explore
something else, and that reallyresonated with me and so many
others who have createdmasterpieces and not to be like
an achievement, but went forwardand created without knowing
(22:29):
what they were going to create,but they could feel it inside of
them and it usually comes fromsome kind of suffering that was
so intense and deep that itallowed them to access something
within themselves.
They was always there theydidn't know about, and when they
start to unleash it, it guidesthem, and it can feel very
(22:52):
frightening because it's notwesternized, it's not academic.
Sometimes you don't even knowif it's spiritual.
It just feels like somethingthat is so deeply inside of you
but yet connected to everythingaround you.
It can feel very isolating too.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
And the isolation part.
It was welcome.
I had become fine with myself,so I was no longer lonely.
I was never lonely, in fact,because I had found peace.
It was this moment where, usingthose teachings, I was able to
(23:34):
really find that moment of peacewhere, again, I was fine with
the universe.
The universe and all of myrelatives were always around me.
There was no reason to belonely Because you're not alone,
right, exactly Ever.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
And that's one thing our producer Harold, he shared.
He was at your talk last nightbut he shared that exact what
we're talking about now.
When you did the sevengenerations and your ancestors
and he said it was just reallydeep.
He said how we are, ourancestors, they're not in the
(24:08):
past, they're us, they're withinus, they're us, they're within
us.
And so when you said you'renever alone, uh, I think
listeners can that.
That's something where theythey can't see that.
They look around and go I amalone, there's nobody next to me
, you know I.
But instead it's like, well, Iam of my people, I'm of this
land, I'm of this god.
(24:29):
Whatever they're part of it'sinside of of them.
So you're never alone.
And that's the healing part ofbreaking down a word and just
sharing it in form ofcommunication and talking, just
like we are.
It's the storytelling thatpeople get these light bulb
moments and can really learnfrom Anishinaabe and
(24:54):
spirituality, culture, whateverit is.
It's taking time to reallylisten to somebody else's story.
And then how can I build off ofthat in my own life?
Speaker 1 (25:06):
And that was part of the words, was I?
When I began looking in themorphemes, the small parts of
the words, I was hearing storiesthat our ancestors, I think,
are sharing with us, and theyembedded in the words themselves
.
All of a sudden I'm listeningto them and you know I'm not the
only person who you know.
(25:26):
You mentioned the suffering ofit.
That word Gush Kingdom.
It means sadness, it can meansorrow.
I think it could even meansuffering.
And when you look at it it hasan gushk which is to be sealed,
to be closed off, An andum tothink you are closed off Because
(25:49):
you can only think it.
You are never in fact shut off,cut off from all of your
relatives.
You can think you are and it isthat thought that makes you
suffer.
Okay, I were able to change theway I'm approaching this, able
(26:15):
to change my thought that all ofa sudden again, I'm not lonely,
I am here with those relatives.
I'm not just thinkingexclusively of me, I'm thinking
of all of my relatives.
And it is a liberating thought,it is a liberating perspective.
And when I started looking atthose words, even just breaking
them down Again, I would hearstory after story of people who,
(26:36):
not just 50 years ago, 100years ago, 800 years ago,
thousand years ago, people whowent through the human
experience went through this aswell.
I too felt sorrow.
I too felt a moment ofsuffering where I could not
continue the way that I am now.
Something will have toradically change in my life.
When I went through thatexperience, I embedded my story
(27:00):
in this word, in this teaching,and it passed down to another
generation and anothergeneration, so that when you get
there and you will, if you'reliving the human life, if you're
having a human experience,you're going to have this at one
time You're going to haveintense suffering, You're going
to have sadness.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
Or several times right.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
Several times, indeed , you will feel loss, you will
feel loneliness.
We've felt that too.
This is how we dealt with it,and for me to have a moment to
share those words with peoplewas when I posed that question
what's the last thing you woulddo in the language If this were
done at the end of the semester,you're going to step away and
(27:38):
get another job.
What would you talk about?
It would be those stories, andthat was the genesis of this
book.
The first time I did it, I waslike well, I did it, that's
exactly what I wanted to do.
It was at um, it was with agroup of teachers and
instructors and somehow the nextday everyone was like, oh wow,
(27:59):
Everyone loved that presentation.
I again, I had that desire toinfluence people, that desire to
present that image of what Iconsidered James Kaku.
I'd let that go and, uh, tohear that people enjoyed hearing
about the grandfather teachingswas a pleasant surprise.
But I thought, well, maybe I'llcontinue speaking about this
(28:26):
Because it also brought me greatjoy.
There are times I feel like I'mgetting away with it because
this is so much fun.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
So that almost I mean it almost sounds like not
imposter syndrome, but I mean Ican relate to that feeling of oh
, this speak, I would do thisfor free, I cannot.
I almost feel guilty like ohboy, I cannot.
(28:54):
I almost feel guilty like ohboy, and not.
I think most people would loveto leave work or their job or
whatever, however their life,whatever they make money doing,
having that kind of guilt of wow, I just totally got paid for
something that I can't believethey paid me for and I think
(29:16):
that's that good fortune.
And I mean I'm also, you know,I know our traditional ways, I'm
learning all of the time andI'm also Catholic and very
spiritual, and I remember itjust really made me think of
that when, because speaking isone of the things that I love to
(29:39):
do, it comes natural, doesn't?
You know, trying to prep for itis more work than me just
getting up and speaking.
But I almost didn't do itbecause it felt like that, like
this can't be, it shouldn't bethat easy.
And somebody asked me that whenI was in adoration, it was a
volunteer who was and she saidwell, what would you do if you
(30:01):
could?
Just if you could speak topeople just like with this,
without any expectations of you,need to have these linear
objectives and goals.
And I said I think I would bethe happiest I've ever been.
And then she said, well, whywouldn't?
Why aren't you doing that?
And I said I think I would bethe happiest I've ever been.
And then she said, well, whyweren't you doing that?
And I said, well, that doesn'tsound like.
That doesn't make sense to me.
I should be suffering.
And she said God wants you tobe happy.
(30:28):
It was again.
It's like a moment where areyou kidding me?
So why do we run away fromthings that feel so good or have
even guilt for?
That's part of like having agift, but then owning the gift
and using the gift is that'swhere it says.
I think some of us are really.
Obviously I'm struggling withthis and maybe I'd sometimes, of
(30:50):
course, you were too.
Am I getting on something here?
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Well it was.
I recall I was listening toJack White.
Well, famously he's a veryfamous musician but loving loves
to play the blues, and it wasin an interview where he's like
I can't believe I'm getting awaywith this, Like getting on
(31:18):
stage, traveling, playing theblues and people showing up and
loving it.
And I thought that's exactlyhow it feels when I get a chance
to speak about the grandfatherteachings, when I get a chance
to share, like a word that I'veheard and that I've looked into,
and all of a sudden I've hearda voice from it could be even
thousands of years, it could befrom even a few hundred years,
sharing this beautiful moment ofinsight, All right, and that I
get to share this with peoplewho I'll probably never meet or
(31:39):
see or visit with.
When I do a small video andpost it online, it ends up going
all around the world.
So those moments for me,they're really joyful and it
becomes I never want to forgetthe gratitude for that that me
wait to win Des Moines.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
That humility even right.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Humility.
That, oh wow, what a specialgift this is.
How much fun this is.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
You know, and you really.
If I just want to give ourlisteners a bit, because they're
not here and we were not, thisis all audio, but I wish you
could see James right now, andthis is genuine because he's
been here for a couple of days,but he's very humble and this
(32:26):
energy and it doesn't meanyou're just so full of
positivity that you know italmost like well, where does he
get this from?
It's based in a really groundedsense of I know the struggling,
I know how this is and yet Ican still look at life this way,
and it's it to me feelsachievable, then, for our people
(32:48):
, and maybe not just our people,but I'm sure all sorts of
people relate and who wouldlisten to you and can learn from
you.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
I, you know, and I have to take and give credit to
elders who taught me, Becausethey went through the worst that
colonization has to offer.
Their spirituality had to gounderground, their spirituality
had to go underground.
So many of them faced physical,mental, emotional, spiritual
and sexual abuse in theirlifetimes.
(33:22):
It was the worst thatcolonization has to offer.
Yet I had met people who wereable to be grateful On a daily
basis.
I had met people who were ableto laugh, to joke.
I noticed yesterday, withAnishinaabeg and Indigenous
people, you're always going toyour laughter always going to
your teasing and it's reallygood fun, and I was like that's
(33:44):
the example I want to see.
Despite having faced that, tosay Mino Kishigata, it is a good
day, nice.
Despite that, I am stillseeking out a good life, I'm
still seeking out joy, I'm stillseeking out health, and that's
really that became the sourcefor what I'm discussing now.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
Wonderful.
Speaker 1 (34:09):
And it's transformed my life.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
Well, I know I'm truly inspired.
I'm a big fan and I think thatI got to witness what your work
does in a community and to seeour.
I got a message last night I'llshare with you.
After your talk, one of myfriends sent me a picture of her
(34:31):
young grandson and he's holdingup your book.
Sent me a picture of her younggrandson and he's holding up
your book and she said we arehome learning the language on
this book, together with James'book, and it's a children's book
that some of our young peoplein the audience got last night
from James.
It's Wisdom Weavers andExploring the Ojibwe Language.
And so for her to send thatpicture exploring the Ojibwe
(34:55):
language, and so for her to sendthat picture and she's touched.
They both left inspired andthen she messaged again and said
he wants to write his own booknow and I said this is why we do
this.
It's late at night, we'reexhausted, we're tired.
It was a busy, great,productive day.
I looked at my daughter andsaid despite all the fatigue,
(35:17):
the planning, this, you know thestress and when you get to
leave something in yourcommunity and see what the
impact that it's had it planteda seed, and for someone to even
take time and give that feedback.
You know that that good life,that that they even knew how
meaningful that could be, and Iwanted to make sure to share
(35:38):
that with you because we all hada moment where we're driving
home and we all got to feel verygrateful and good with what we
helped do that day and what wegot to experience.
So miigwech for that.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Miigwech and I'm sure , sure viewers can't see but the
smile on my face.
It's ear to ear.
That is exactly why I worked onthat book was hopefully to
facilitate a moment of a familyyep, of people just going over
the language together.
Right, that was what I did withmy son in the book yes, I see
(36:12):
that you have a dedication tohim.
It was really special because ittakes place during the pandemic
.
That's not in the book, but Iwas looking for something to do
with my young son now that theschools had shut down and I was
like you know what?
We're going to go get some redwillow shut down.
(36:34):
And I was like you know what?
We're going to go get some redwillow, I'm going to harvest
some, show you how to maketraditional tobacco, and we'll
make a dream catcher too andthat I had an opportunity to
write a book that MarcusTrujillo did an amazing job
illustrating, that I can give tomy son that he probably won't
remember too well because he wasfive, six at the time.
Oh he, he'll remember it and nowhe'll be able to look at this,
(36:56):
maybe like that very weird timein everyone's life that it's,
it's recorded and uh, I'm reallyhappy that there was another
family that got to do what theplan was oh yes because I'm
reading books with him, and itwas how about if people could
look at that, maybe use theirphone with a QR code and share a
(37:18):
word with one another?
Speaker 2 (37:19):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
To look at our culture, to celebrate that, and
right before bedtime, right andthen.
That is the goal.
So thank you for sharing thatwith me.
Yes, you give your friend myvery best.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
And thank you, jennifer, I will give her a
shout out.
Jennifer champagne is my veryclose one of my best friends, uh
, who did uh come and supportthe event and share that
information, so I'm glad I gotto pass that along to you.
So, for our listeners, I thinkwe're just about ready to, even
(37:53):
though I would love to sit here.
We could talk probably for days,maybe one day, we'll just do a
live like 24 hour, just kind ofkeep talking, but I really, is
there any last thoughts that youhave that you want to find you
(38:14):
and where they can find you on?
Maybe if you have your websiteor something, a project that
you'd like them to know about?
Speaker 1 (38:21):
Well, you can always find all of my social media, a
newsletter where I like to keepin touch with people about what
I'm doing at my website,wwwjamesvuklichcom.
And if you'd like to reallyinvestigate the grandfather
teachings, the Anishinaabe,ojibwe, chippewa, nakowai Soto
(38:45):
perspective of seven generations, you can always check out the
book the Seven Generations andSeven Grandfather Teachings.
Or, if you want to hear me talkabout it, I do an audible
version of it as well.
And the fact that I had a chanceto talk about this with you
this afternoon.
The generosity and kindnessyou've shown me in getting me to
(39:07):
Turtle Mountain,nicanagwadjewing, to a
homecoming.
This was a really special,special event for me.
And to have that moment to say,miigwech pizindele, thank you
all for listening.
It's, it's heartfelt and Ireally mean it.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
Miigwech pizindele, thanks for listening, miigwech,
and that's just part of what wedo here.
In our culture, we're we'retaught to you make people feel
at home because this is part ofyour home and we share, we open
and we want to give and letpeople know that we're all here
(39:44):
to help each other, heal andsupport and celebrate.
So you definitely deserve thatcelebration.
Okay, so that will wrap it up,ps.
Life can be tough, it can feelout of balance, but if we're
taking time to focus just everyday on looking at one way that
we can move towards living agood life, miigwech.
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