Jeanne Marie Spicuzza: The Art of Fearless Filmmaking

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 2 (00:10):
Hey there, everyone.
Welcome back to PGPOP on a MindRevolution, the show where we
challenge and explore the deeperlayers of art, truth and
consciousness.
Truth and consciousness.
Today I have the absoluteprivilege of speaking with Jean
Marie Spicuzza, a brilliant,fearless filmmaker, writer,

(00:32):
actress and true visionaryHailing from Milwaukee,
wisconsin.
Jean Marie is the mind behindthe intense psychological
thriller the Scarapist, whichnot only stunned audiences but
won Best Picture at theBaron-Gücher-Kreckerund Film
Macher Film Awards in Germany.
I think I butchered that, gene,I'm sorry.

(00:53):
Her haunting and poetic filmNight Ring continues to receive
critical acclaim for itsemotional power and stunning
imagery.
I've seen it.
It's really something.
Gene's work is raw, deeplypersonal and unflinchingly
honest.
I'm beyond excited to have heron the show today to talk about

(01:13):
her journey, her creative fireand why the world needs
independent voices like hers nowmore than ever.
Let's dive in, jean.
Welcome to the show.
Hey Jean, can you hear me?

Speaker 3 (01:27):
I can hear you.
Can you hear me?

Speaker 2 (01:29):
Yeah, I can hear you Great.

Speaker 3 (01:31):
Okay, good, Okay, because I saw this mute come up
at some point in the corner ofmy screen and I was like, wait,
I'm not muted, am I so?
No, I'm not muted.

Speaker 2 (01:43):
Oh, good yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:45):
I love your environment.

Speaker 2 (01:47):
Oh, do you?
This is my.
It's kind of based off of anold horror host.

Speaker 3 (01:52):
Your inspiration space.
I see a picture of Bill Murraythere, yeah.
Bill Murray, it's like theGhostbusters era.

Speaker 2 (01:59):
Yeah, I've got the Odd Couple with Jack Lemmon and
Walter Maddow.

Speaker 3 (02:05):
Oh great, Is this like a communion style alien
over there.
This yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:11):
This is my mask.
I don't know if you've seen myMidnight Mutant Theater.

Speaker 3 (02:16):
I've seen some of it, but I, oh, and I see the mug
back there behind you too.

Speaker 2 (02:23):
You've got good eyes.
Yeah, that's my mom's sororitymug when she was in college.

Speaker 3 (02:28):
Beautiful.
And then there's an alien mugon the other side.
Oh, and look at that lamp, thatround lamp.
Oh, this is nice.

Speaker 2 (02:36):
Well, that's actually a moon.

Speaker 3 (02:39):
Oh, that one, and then the alien one.
Yeah, that's beautiful.
We had the strawberry moonrecently, as they like to call
it.

Speaker 2 (02:49):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:49):
So how are you?

Speaker 2 (02:51):
I'm good and I've got Metalunia Mutant here from this
planet Earth, I think it'scalled.
I've got a bunch of little1950s creatures.

Speaker 3 (03:02):
When we start talking about creature uh yeah, monster
creature features and what gotyou new movies?
We're gonna have a lot of funwith that oh yeah really fun
stories about that because mydad really, so we'll be able to
talk about that stuff.

Speaker 2 (03:16):
It'll be fun did your dad make movies like that?

Speaker 3 (03:19):
no, oh, okay, but there is a story behind these
things for sure with okay inrelation to my dad, oh,
excellent, that's cool.
I didn't know for sure inrelation to my dad, oh excellent
, that's cool.

Speaker 2 (03:26):
I didn't know that.

Speaker 3 (03:28):
Yeah, my dad.
I think my dad more than Irealized at the time.
I think my dad had a lot to dowith my early thoughts about
movies.

Speaker 2 (03:40):
For sure, I'm sitting here adjusting my lights.
I was thinking boy, I hope yourdad didn't produce some of
these movies that I make fun of,because some of these movies
are so bad it's like I don'tknow how they got distribution
or a company to produce them.

Speaker 3 (03:55):
It is truly amazing.
But then you look at what Edwould accomplish too.
Somehow he always finds peopleto keep them, while he repeats
them Despite everything.

Speaker 2 (04:08):
And there's always a theme about brains, nuclear war
and and aliens for some reason Idon't know what stuff.

Speaker 3 (04:12):
Yeah this will be fun , because you know I mean you do
you do realize one thing thatif you have any contact with
things like creature features,especially the more obscure ones
, then you know that you've gotto be some kind of cinephile.
Yeah, because that's just that.
I like to think of it as kindof geekery.

(04:35):
I mean, I'm a geek.
That kind of nerdiness, like itcomes out of a certain passion.
You have to have a certainpassion.
Yeah.
Appreciate it and get involvedin it on some level, for sure.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (04:50):
It's really funny because I don't know.
You said we were just going togo with the flow today, so I've
already recorded an introductionseparately, so we don't have to
do it now.

Speaker 3 (04:59):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
I kind of do it or I got to clean it up.
I kind of do it or I got toclean it up.
But the background is kind ofinspired by these guys.
In Cleveland from the 60s and70s and 80s they had a show
called Big Chuck and Houlihanand they would show Dracula and
the werewolf and then atcommercial break they'd have

(05:20):
little comedy skits and they'dhave these backgrounds with all
their monster movie postersbehind them.
So this is kind of inspired bymy my nerdiness of of loving
those guys as a kid.

Speaker 3 (05:32):
When you're talking about that, that is familiar.
I have a friend who's who's sointo b horror, b monster movies
and I remember him.
We, we started conversationsabout it and we got into things
like attack of the killer clownsand attack of the killer
tomatoes and at one point heheld up this dvd because some of

(05:53):
these things, you know, nevermade it to streaming.
So he had this dvd collectionand he's like here's one I bet
you've never seen, and he holdsit up and I was like oh yeah,
satan's cheerleaders.
I'm like I saw that when I wasin high school and he's like
you're kidding.
And I'm like no, no, no, Like I, this is going to be a whole

(06:15):
conversation.
Well, we'll just, we'll justyeah.
But yes, yes, I mean so.
Well, it's since're.
Are we just starting?
Are we just going with?

Speaker 2 (06:25):
it yeah, let's just go.
I mean, I was going to have itall structured and after talking
to you, I'm like, why don't wejust wing it and see what
happens?
I do an introduction, likewe're going to talk about you
and your film career and theScarapist and Night Rain and all
that stuff.
Night rain and all that stuff.

(06:50):
Um, oh, the one thing, well, Idon't want it to be like oh so,
um, did you go to college to dothis and all that stuff?
Unless you want to go down thatformal path, we don't, we'll
just go wherever, let's justyeah wherever, wherever you want
to go, hey, I'm gonna.
I'm gonna say you take the reins, because okay, it's your
program and I'm here to be aguest and to be with you through
it well, I'm so happy you'rehere because when we talked in

(07:10):
the phone well, let me back up alittle bit to tell everybody
how we kind of we met.
I'm in ohio and jean is in herein los angeles, right, and I
found you because I made myfirst film and I was.
I was searching aroundInstagram for other filmmakers
and I discovered, I think, thescarapist and I've discovered
your work.

(07:30):
And then I stumbled upon thisphotograph of you posing in
front of a, I guess, a trainDepot called angels flight and I
wrote to you and I said I justlove this photograph.
It reminds me of a never hopperpainting.
Can I do a painting of it?
Said I just love thisphotograph.
It reminds me of a NeverwoodHopper painting.
Can I do a painting of it?
Because I dabble in painting.
And you said, sure, and I didthis painting and I made a

(07:54):
documentary of me making it.
I sent the whole thing to youand you loved it and I was
really horrified.
I was sending this to youbecause I saw an interview with
you.
You said you had a stalker andI'm like, oh no, she's going to
think I'm stalking her orsomething.
And my wife is like, just sendit to her, she'll either not
respond or she'll like it, youknow, or something like that.
So we just kind of hit it offand started talking about this

(08:18):
documentary I made, which it's asmall eight-minute documentary
which is posted on her website.
Jean's website is seasons andmuse studios plural studios,
pluralcom seasons and muse,pluralcom, and my film was on
there and along with a lot ofall of her productions, that's

(08:39):
kind of where we we met up, Iguess you would say.
But what I wanted to do is justkind of find out how you got
started in filmmaking, becausewhat I've noticed is your
production quality is justfantastic your, your camera work
, the sound, the people you workwith and it's very well done.

(09:02):
You work with and it's verywell done productions, and how
did you go from never doing afilm to making a scarapist and
all of your other productions?

Speaker 3 (09:14):
that's um.
I like the question becauseit's it's almost like one of
these provocative questionswhere it's like how far down
that rabbit hole would you liketo go?
I?
Was thinking as I asked it I'dlike to go pretty far down the
rabbit hole but not spend toomuch time getting to the point,

(09:35):
the core of the question okay,but I?
I when I was little and we hadthis the summer home in
lauderdale lakes w Wisconsin,which isn't far from you know
people into music will knowAlpine Valley.
People who know vacation spotsnear Illinois will know Lake
Geneva.
So my parents and my aunt owneda cottage there and my dad over

(09:56):
the summers because he was aguidance counselor.
My mother had been a teacher.
He was the first person to everwin, to earn, to garner five
letters in a college sport whichwas for wrestling, so he also
coached wrestling, but he hadsummers off.
We had summers off and we'd goto this, my parents and aunt's
cottage, for the summers and Iremember that he would watch

(10:18):
these creature features like themummy returns.
And.
I wasn't supposed to be watchingthem, but I would sit on this
landing and you could hear itwas very creaky.
So I had to be really, reallyyou know quiet and really, you
know careful and I'd sit and I'dwatch them from the stairway,

(10:41):
watching down at the television.
Did he know you were there.
No, he usually didn't know I wasthere and I would have, you
know, I'd have a hard timesleeping and I'd have nightmares
and things like that and youknow my parents would be like
what's going on with you?
But I always, I just I don'tknow.
I was really fascinated withmotion picture and I was already
painting and writing at a veryyoung age.

(11:03):
And then I remember when I wasa student of philosophy, my
friend Len introduced me to theEuropean production, but it was
with American cast, someAmerican cast, the adaptation of

(11:25):
Umberto Eco's Il Nome in DellaRosa, the Name of the Rose.
So I was like, wow, you can dothis with philosophy and being a
single mom.
At that time I was trying to bepractical, which I mean I was
in philosophy, so how practicalwas I already.
I was a poet already and allthese writing plays and I didn't
.
I tried to actually move awayfrom the arts and become

(11:46):
interested in the seriousdisciplines like psychology,
possibly teaching or somethinglike that.
But I also.
There were students in thephotography and film departments
at UW Milwaukee who wouldalways say I want you to be my
photographic subject, I want youto act in my film.
Wow.
Well, I'm not a professional andI'm not a theater major.

(12:09):
No, we want you in it.
So one of my first acting jobswas as a student.
I was still being paid, and Iportrayed Stella in a student
version of Streetcar Named.
Design.
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Now, before that I'd alreadydone theater and things like
that growing up and you know,again it's like it's not

(12:31):
something.
I necessarily sat down and saidthis is what I'm going to do,
but it seemed like so manythings in my life were already
and always kind of pushing me inthat direction.
Oh wow, pushing me in thatdirection, when I was faced with
the decision of whether or notto pursue philosophy as a
profession and I'd already hadexperience as a professional

(12:52):
artist performing and stillbeing asked you know, can I film
you?
Can I do that?
Would you be in this?
And it was that was alwayshappening.
And so when you mentionedproduction values it's
interesting because I have tosay that I think one of the
reasons for that you know, I'veworked with such talented people

(13:14):
over the years.
I think they've come to me andI think I've been very blessed
that way.
Oh yeah, very, very blessed, ohyeah, picture and making a movie

(13:42):
about Hildegard von Bingen,who's this remarkable woman from
the 12th century, and myresearch on her was not accepted
because she's not consideredtraditional philosophy and I by
then was so in love with her andso I just I took my screenplay
the first screenplay I everwrote I just hauled off to los

(14:03):
angeles and I started getting.
I started becoming in contactwith other people and very
interesting people and um, andthat screenplay was a
semi-finalist in the nickelfellowships, which is how do you
motion picture earth andsciences?
In fact, an assistant to um, uh, gary marshall, we were dining

(14:25):
one time and he said yeah, thefirst penny marshall's gary
marshall's, assistant at thetime
oh, wow and um, and he said tome, you know we were meeting
about screenwriting.
And he said, well, the firstscript you ever read, right, I
hear that you just junk it, youjust throw it in the garbage.
And I said, oh, the firstscreenplay ever wrote was a
semi-final.
Son nichols.
He's like okay, okay, so forgetabout that.

(14:46):
You're like there are no rules.
There are no rules.
I think it's the, the passionand the willingness.
Yes, it can really help.
Obviously, you know GretaGerwig has.
She's done some things right.
I mean, she went to the Tischschool and she got agent quickly
.
And Viola Davis went to aJuilliard and got an agent

(15:08):
quickly.
But I don't think that's theend, all be all.
It's not the only path there.
There are so many paths in thearts.
I think that's one of thethings I love about the arts is
that there are so many variantpaths for people oh yeah,
variant paths for people, uh, sono, I didn't go to.

(15:29):
I didn't go to film school, butI received a really great
education from a lot of myfriends who did oh, yeah, yeah,
very well, um, I was mentored by, um, you know, david Lynch and
even Julie Dash.

Speaker 2 (15:38):
She taught me a lot.

Speaker 3 (15:40):
She taught me a lot.
Um, it helps to be a goodwriter.
Being a good writer drawspeople.
It's hard, I suppose, to findgood writing and acting.
I started acting at a veryyoung age so I didn't have a
plan to direct or produce per se.
It's almost like an automaticthat you start producing and

(16:03):
from there you start directing.
It kind of just it startsfollowing, it follows from one
to the other, to the other.
So it's just, it's just aninteresting journey.

Speaker 2 (16:14):
Wow.
So it started very young foryou and it's funny.
We have a similar experience ofthe hiding on the staircase.
When I was three, I wassupposed to be in bed and I
would sneak downstairs in thisold colonial house in Cleveland
Heights, ohio and hide behind acouch.
Try to watch this big ChuckNewhoolahan and Johnny Carson

(16:35):
and I'd always get yelled at.
Go back to bed, you know oh,you got caught, you got.
I always got caught.
Yeah, there's.
There's a little more to thestory than that, but I'll leave
it all out.
But but they always caught mebecause I was always trying to
sneak down there in my sleepers.
I had those sleepers on thefeet.
Yeah, the rubber bottoms.

Speaker 3 (16:56):
Yeah, Border admitted land in Ohio.
But you know, those were thingsthat we wore as kids the
sleepers.

Speaker 2 (17:06):
Oh, I know.

Speaker 3 (17:06):
Yeah, sleepers or sleeping blankets where you had
the feet.

Speaker 2 (17:10):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (17:12):
They were very warm, but it did make it hard to like
escape quickly.
They weren't supposed to beslippery.
They had like rubber bottomsbut sometimes they were slippery
.

Speaker 2 (17:24):
I fell down the stairs once.
Running running down the stairsfor my brother and I stepped on
one of the toes and whentumbling, but mine were lime
green.
I'll never forget the colorcolor I was on.

Speaker 3 (17:34):
I'm just glad you didn't crack a skull or anything
no, I bit my tongue.

Speaker 2 (17:38):
That was it, and it was just you didn't have wood
floors that sounds like a woodfloor.
Yeah, we had wood woodstaircase.
Yeah, yeah that was.

Speaker 3 (17:46):
That was very common in like midwest and oh, yeah,
yeah most homes, the, the, the.
You know you still had a lot ofthe old wood yeah, yeah so less
of the carpeting and yeah I'mglad you didn't oh, no, no, no,
I, I, I'm fine.

Speaker 2 (18:03):
No, it was just a.
It was a funny thing that yousaid that, because I've never
heard anybody else say theysnuck downstairs to watch.
Because you know, we come fromthat era.
I think you must come from theera where it was the old tube tv
set and my brother had this oldblack and well, my mom and dad
had a black and white tv settill 1978.
My brother would take it, takeit upstairs and we'd watch these

(18:25):
old monster movies with thelights turned out and I'd be
scared.
You know cause?
He was eight years older thanme and he thought it was funny
that I was scared of thewerewolf.

Speaker 3 (18:32):
Oh, and it is so scary.
I mean, when you're youngyou're trying to kind of attune
yourself to what's going on andand those.
I remember having a littleblack and white set and that was
perfect for watching, and notonly the, the old creature
features like the mummy andDracula, but I also used to like
to watch from the time I waslike 10 and 12, I started

(18:56):
watching like the old film noir,like sorry, wrong number was
one of the first, one of thefirst suspense films, the first
uh suspense films I watched uhas a young person.
I remember wait until darkstarring audrey hepburn and alan
arkin.
Uh, amazing alan arkin he didtoo, and I remember watching, um

(19:17):
, I remember watching uh psycho.
I remember watching psychoalfred hitchcock.
That really changed my life.
In fact it changed my sister'stoo.
My older sister was taking ashower and I thought it would be
funny.
I guess it was more funny forme than for her to sneak up on
her with a you know playingplaying Psycho.
I guess it was great.
And, and, and I would make that.

Speaker 2 (19:44):
Did she think it was real or?

Speaker 3 (19:46):
She was really freaked out.
Oh, wow.
She understood that it was mejust being me, but she was not.
I thought it was funny.
She definitely didn't think itwas funny.
That's hilarious.
Yeah, I was a weird kid, so Imean, movies definitely made a
very deep impression on me and Idon't think I was built for
nine to fives.
Whenever I worked nine to fivejobs and it wasn't very often

(20:09):
something always pulled me outof it.
You know I'd come.
You know, oftentimes I'd beriding a bus or something and
maybe I was coming from classesor wherever and I'd show up 20
minutes late or 40 minutes lateand the manager would be like
Well, you can't just do that.
And I'd say, well, it only takesme 20 minutes or 25 minutes to
take what, it takes some people45 minutes or an hour, 15.

(20:32):
So what difference does it make?
I had a weird frame of mindthat way.
I definitely was not built forthat kind of structure.
Oh yeah.
I really admire people who areI really, really, truly do.
But I'm one of them.

Speaker 2 (20:52):
I'm the same way.
I worked in the corporate worldfor 20 years and I'd always be
sitting there drawing picturesor daydreaming.
And I remember one of the lastdecent jobs I had.
I was drawing a picture ofsomebody in the meeting and a
girl next to me and I'm notreally a great drawer but she
goes wow, did you draw that?
She's's like you shouldn't bedoing this, you should be
working in art and that thosewords that this is 30 years ago
have inspired me to get where Iam today.

(21:14):
She I don't know whateverhappened to her, but I always
want to call her up and find herand thank her, because I
couldn't stand the corporateworld.
I couldn't stand sitting at adesk.
Um, I was always in anotherworld, dreaming about music or
something.
I didn't know anything aboutmovies.
I'm nowhere near as intelligentabout movies as you are.
I've made a coupledocumentaries, but you really

(21:34):
know your producers anddirectors and films.
I'm just new to it in the lastfive years.

Speaker 3 (21:41):
I was going to say that I think that it's something
that's kind of followed me andit was almost like it was almost
compulsive, it was almost likesomething I couldn't.
It was very I was very inspiredby and at one time it's funny I
remember telling one of mycinematographers what is the big
deal, after all, about citizenkane, and he's like what's the
big deal about citizen kanefirst, first movie ever shot.

(22:04):
That included you broke thefourth wall.
Explain to me, you know, and hewas this amazing
cinematographer.
He worked on my movie Field Day.
Prior to that, he was the um.
He was one of the interns, uh,in cinematography on the movie
the Terminal oh, wow yeah, it'slike I mean, these are people
who came in my life and it waslike what a blessing.

(22:25):
They taught me a lot.
They taught me a lot I.
I think it helped me.
I think it helped me see thingsa little differently, though I
I get a little bit and, by theway, my stalkers are not only
just like people who bug youyou're talking about.
Really I ever since you havemultiple, multiple stalkers.
Yeah, I've more than one.
I've more than one.
I've had to alert the FBI fieldoffice.
I have stalkers who are likeprofessionals.

(22:47):
I have stalkers who areliterally like internationally
renowned professionals.

Speaker 2 (22:51):
Oh my God, I'm too lazy to be a stalker.

Speaker 3 (22:54):
That's a whole other level, yeah.

Speaker 2 (22:56):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (22:57):
Because I've been involved with a lot of politics.
I wrote an article.
I wrote an article about theCommittee for Presidential
Debates and things like this andsupported a lot of third
parties and independents and, asa result, I started getting
some very strange thingshappening in my life.

(23:17):
I don't really want to givethem too much attention because
I know they like that.
Probably I might even incitethem to do something from here.
I've had websites hacked.
I've had email hacked.

Speaker 4 (23:32):
I've had credit cards hacked.
I've had really really highlevel, stalking, wow, yes, yes.

Speaker 3 (23:35):
So I know that they enjoy that, and if that's, if
that's what you're paid to do, Iknow, however ugly, that's your
job.
However ugly, that's your job,but yeah, it's it's.
I know that the term gets usedfor many things, but for me it's
a whole other level.
I found, though, you mentionedthat I wanted to come back to

(24:07):
that when someone told you thatyour drawings were good and you
were saying to me.
I remember you said to me I'mnot really a painter.
But this is the painting that Imade in the documentary I made,
yeah, yeah, and I really wasimpressed.
I really loved the way itflowed, the documentary, the
mini doc, and I really wasimpressed by what you had
created and it never occurred tome from that photograph, and
that's the amazing thing, I mean, and thanks to Mark Yanni, one

(24:29):
of my key photographers, we worktogether quite often.
He was a photojournalist, whichis makes it really interesting.
A lot of people who dophotography might start in
fashion photography not thatthat's there's anything wrong
with that.
One of our actors has worked infashion and since has done a
lot in fashion in milan sure butcoming from a photo
photojournalistic background isinteresting.

(24:49):
I mean, that's like people likeouija and stuff like that came
from these backgrounds.

Speaker 2 (24:52):
I know uh oh, the film the dead people.

Speaker 3 (24:54):
Yeah, stanley kubrick , you know they started doing a
lot of kind of what you mightcall grit photography or
photojournalism.
You, um and photographing likekind of journalistic realism and
things like that, and I it does.
It's interesting because theirthought, their, their thinking,
is in terms of story, rightright off.

(25:16):
It's not just how does thislook, but what is it saying.
And it makes sense to me thatMark would produce a photograph
with me that would then propelyou into a thought of like what
is this story behind that?
Um, I think that's really cooland we hadn't said this to
people.
So the the photography ispromotional photography for the

(25:38):
upcoming motion picture I'mdoing, called making angels, and
so of course, we're shooting atangels flight, which is a very
historical railway in LosAngeles and in fact I think it's
the first funicular railway inexistence, if I'm not mistaken.

Speaker 2 (25:53):
Is it?
Really.

Speaker 3 (25:54):
I think so.
Okay.
And so I thought that wasreally cool too that you saw
Hopper, because with mybackground I'm also a
watercolorist.
Wow.
I've done both fine art andillustrative watercolor, so I'm
very in tune to people likeHomer and Hopper, and I just
found it really interesting thatyou saw that and then you were

(26:17):
inspired to create that.
That's pretty amazing.
It shows us that we must be onthe right track when other
people are inspired by somethingwe do and then we're inspired
by them and there's this sort of, there's this symbiosis and
relationship well, I think it'seven more interesting that you
just happened to show up.

Speaker 2 (26:35):
I don't remember the story, but that photo shoot.
But you showed up on a daywhere it was.
You couldn't get to the otherside and you only could go to
the side that I liked.
Is that right?
There was under construction orsomething it's along those
lines.

Speaker 3 (26:47):
What happened was we were choosing what day to shoot
and I said to Mark you know wewere thinking about I think it
was on a Thursday.
Actually, we were thinkingabout what day would make sense
Because, of course, you'retalking about downtown LA,
you're talking people going backto school, so fewer tourists,
hopefully, in theory, you don'tknow for sure you're talking

(27:10):
about people going to work andbeing at work.
But when we got there, when wegot to the site and now this
isn't the original site whereangel's flight was located.
It has been moved because, ofcourse, bunker hill doesn't
exist anymore.
Okay, what was built for?
For people traveling up anddown bunker hill in los angeles?
Uh, it was moved and they hadsome issues with it, um, safety

(27:33):
issues and things like that.
So what they do, apparently, isevery seven years they test this
funicular railway.
Now they don't announce it,they don't announce when they're
going to do it, and it's not onthe same day every seven years.
So we could not have known this.
But we get there.
We get there.

(27:54):
We get to the, the, the lowerterminus that takes you up
towards the, the ticket officeand things like that.
We're at the lower terminus,which is across from the I think
it's the grand, the grandmarket, and it says that they're
closed.
They're closed for testing thatday, the one day out of seven
years, and it's never, it's notconsistent.

(28:15):
It happened to be that day.
It was the feast of St Hildegardand I thought well, this is
interesting.
It turned out to be such ahappy accident because, even
though we weren't able to filmon the real cars, we were able
to film all around, because noone was riding the cars, so no
one was really around from topto bottom.

(28:37):
That's why we were able to get,because normally you'd probably
have a lot of people standingwhere I was standing and you
wouldn't be able to get, becausenormally you'd probably have a
lot of people standing where Iwas standing and you wouldn't be
able to get that shot.
But because of this happyaccident, we didn't even
anticipate.
That's how we were able to geta lot of those shots.

Speaker 2 (28:53):
Do you mind if I share a screen of the photograph
?
It's going to be from yourchannel.
See if I can do this thing.
Show people what we're talkingabout here.

Speaker 3 (29:02):
It helps, yeah, to have the visual.
I don't know if you can seethat, is it on there oh, it's
not on there yet, oh, yeah,there it is.

Speaker 2 (29:11):
This is yeah, I can see.
I think I've got it muted.
I don't know if it's gonna.
How do we play the playing?

Speaker 3 (29:18):
how much, um I think, you, if you go to that little
arrow.
For here.
Yeah, I think that's the thingthat's going to be there.
There we go, okay.

Speaker 2 (29:28):
So this is it's, you know doing a.
Well, there's one of mysketches there.

Speaker 3 (29:32):
Yeah, this is impromptu, but somehow you were
able to capture a real sense ofthis, not only visually but
story wise and emotionally, andit is a very historic place.
The color is really specific.

(29:53):
As you noticed, it's got thisand some of that.
I did myself images.
I took those original images andI'm I affected them so that
they would look more 30s becauseof course making just takes
place in the 30s and the 90s,that's it's period um, I didn't

(30:17):
know at the time that I chosethat that I've since been told
by historians of variousdisciplines, whether it be
cosmetic historians or wardrobehistorians or aesthetic
historians or culturalhistorians, that apparently

(30:43):
there are a lot of similaritiesbetween the 30s and the 90s that
I was not aware of at the time.
The 1990s.
The 30s and the 90s, the 1930sand the 1990s.

Speaker 2 (30:52):
I didn't know that.

Speaker 3 (30:52):
Yeah, I didn't either .
It was really an inspirationthat I had when I wrote the
screenplay.
I started the screenplay backin 1998.
It was a dream I had.
And I woke from this dream andI dreamt the characters.
I dreamt the characters, Idreamt the scenarios, I dreamt
certain camera angles and shots,I dreamt the title, I dreamt
locations.
I dreamt almost the whole thingand then just had to work out

(31:16):
certain details.
You mentioned Making Angels,the teaser.

Speaker 2 (31:21):
That's yeah let me show that, because I just love
this teaser, this where thecamera's going through the whole
theater or the um, yes, yeah,you mind if I show that is.

Speaker 3 (31:32):
That is that yeah, no members only.
Yeah, that's on, that's on theplatform too we released it
before off the platform.
There's a reason for that.
I'll I'll share with you in aminute that the story behind it
or I can share it with you.
It's okay to share it yeah, ohyeah, let's see here I'm just
gonna mute it and then we cantalk a little bit about this.

(31:54):
So this is the.
This is a very historicallocation in la.
This is called the wilshireebell theater okay and this is
where we shot it and when weshot it.
We shot it during the WGAstrikes, right before Wow, but
right before SAG also joined inthe strikes.

Speaker 2 (32:18):
Oh, that transition right there is phenomenal
through the curtain.

Speaker 3 (32:22):
Yeah, yeah, now that's my editor, who's also a
videographer.

Speaker 2 (32:24):
Yeah, it's phenomenal Through the Curtain.
Yeah, yeah, I never saw thatbefore.
That's my editor who's?

Speaker 3 (32:27):
also a videographer and he feels he has not earned
his right yet to call himself acinematographer.
He refers to himself as avideographer, okay, which is
pretty impressive, because Iknow cinematographers who think
his work is spectacular,including Michelle Cantor, who
founded Cinefem, who is in thisvideo, actually, as she portrays

(32:49):
Dorothy Parker.
This whole space is remarkable.
Not only is it a theater, itwas an educational facility for
women, for women.
That was its primary purpose.
This is the library.
This whole space is remarkable.

Speaker 2 (33:06):
So was this shot in one take, or well, maybe that
one edit wasn't.

Speaker 3 (33:11):
No, it wasn't shot in one take, although a lot of the
footage that you're seeing frombefore our transitions, like
here, this is all shot in onetake.

Speaker 2 (33:22):
And so somebody has the camera on a stabilizer or a
gimbal.

Speaker 3 (33:25):
Cynthia and I are walking together with it okay,
you did this okay we both did,we both did, he, he really we
both.
I shared the vision with himand we have a very interesting
creative marriage, so we workvery well.
We've this is our third projectworking together and it just

(33:45):
works for us.

Speaker 2 (33:46):
Yeah, I just saw this and I was so drawn into it.
It was just like something outof the Shining, like following
that little kid on the bicycleor the tricycle.

Speaker 3 (33:55):
Yes, yeah, when he's riding through.
Now this here, those feet areMichelle Kander, and getting
that image is harder than peoplerealize because you actually
aren't filming what people think, because otherwise you're
seeing cameras.
So the way you have to createthat is very interesting.

Speaker 2 (34:09):
You have to probably have it backwards or have it
look like you're walking throughthe frame of the mirror.

Speaker 3 (34:14):
Yeah, there are just certain ways you have to do it.

Speaker 2 (34:16):
It's a very interesting way to study how to
do it and how it ends with youon stage here.
This is just, it's just verypowerful.

Speaker 3 (34:25):
Thank you for bringing this up, because this
has not really been seen outsideof the platform.
And there was a reason.
Yeah, that QR code is ournonprofit QR code through Cinefm
.
When we created this and I hadalready had plans to create it

(34:46):
and I had already had plans tocreate it I was scouting the
location in January of 2023.
Ironically, in an interestingtwist of fate, back in the early
2000s, I was an extra Well, Iwas supposed to be a featured
player.
I became an extra uncredited ona show called Providence.

(35:07):
I've heard of that that was shotthere.
I always remembered it.
Also, one of the first jobs Iever did for a television a
Lifetime movie called Jackie'sBack and Tim Curry was
responsible for that, and so Iworked with him.
That was one of my firstprojects in.
La Wow.

(35:28):
Being a featured extra in atemporary production, and they
shot at that location.
I never had forgotten thatlocation.
It really impressed itself uponme.
Now I went back to do somescouting in January and of
course, the strikes hit in Mayof that year.
So we'd already prepared tofilm there and so I said, well,

(35:53):
we're going to have to do acouple of things here.
We're going to have to shootthis without a script, and this
is one of the reasons it turnedout why it didn't.
I think it's a happy accidentthat it did, because it might
have had more dialogue or morevoiceover.
So we really couldn't have thatthat.
We were shooting it.
Because we were shooting itduring the strikes.

(36:13):
We couldn't release it on am,on any am ptp platforms, because
that would have violated strikerules.
Oh, no script.
Now someone at the wga said tome but you know, story, story
can be script.
I said, well, yeah, story canbe script, but one thing we know
about the movie industry orbusiness is that it existed

(36:40):
before there were screenplays.
People just shot what storiesthey knew or things, things that
they conceived of.
So while I would agree thatscript is story, story isn't
always script.

Speaker 2 (36:53):
Well, the silent movies too.

Speaker 3 (36:55):
Yeah.
So if you're shooting without ascript, technically you're not
really violating.
You know you're not violatingthe precepts.
Plus, you're not releasing iton AMP TPP platforms even things
like YouTube.
So we releasing it on AMP TPLPplatforms, even things like
YouTube.
So it was one of the firstthings that we had exclusively
on the platform.
Besides Night Rain was theMaking Angels teaser, and so I'm

(37:20):
glad that you enjoyed it.
I appreciate it too, because wehad to film it in this unique
way, kind of like we had to doour photo shoot at Making Angels
.
It's funny when life imposescertain challenges on you, it
can really push you in aninteresting direction, because
those perceived limitations pushyou into creativity you didn't

(37:45):
necessarily think of.

Speaker 2 (37:47):
Yeah, yeah, you've got to think in your feed,
you've got to improvise yeah,and which a lot of movie making
is.

Speaker 3 (37:52):
Because you were really surprised.
I remember when I said to youyeah, you know, with night rain
we had sometimes, you know, over45 people on our set on a given
day and you were like whoa yeahwe made that?
we made that like the old studiomotion pictures.
We that's how we shot it, andwe shot it at historical
locations and we had things wehad to solve just really spur of

(38:12):
the moment.
We had a prop that didn'tfunction the way it was going to
and it was a really importantpart of the plot and it was
we're all staying around forlike 20 minutes going, okay,
this is what we're going to haveto do with it.
You know, we kind of we kind ofhad to improvise in the best
possible way and I remembereverybody was still being
democratic about it.
We were pushing towards like 35minutes of discussing these

(38:33):
things and finally I was like OK, I am a menopausal woman having
hot flashes.
I've earned the right to makethis decision.

Speaker 2 (38:40):
This is the way it's going to be.

Speaker 3 (38:41):
And I saw everybody on set just be like like there's
a lot of stuff, and everybodygot really quiet.
But it worked because I waslike, ok, let's go, because of
course, every minute you knowit's crazy to be an actor, a
writer, a director and aproducer, so you're aware of
what needs to happen creatively,you're aware of how things are
going to have to play on camera.
You're aware of what yourperformance needs to be.

(39:03):
You are aware of what plotneeds to be.
You're also aware of moneygoing out the door at every
given moment that it turns intooh yeah, it's all going off in
your head at once.

Speaker 2 (39:11):
It's just, it is.

Speaker 3 (39:12):
Oh yeah, it's really intense, but Night Rain was by
far now one of the mostrewarding creative experiences
I've ever known, because wereally did the whole thing stem
to stern, much like the oldmovie industry.
The old studio system did it.
We were like a family and weate together.

Speaker 2 (39:29):
We did things together and it was just.
It's really cool let me ask yougo back to the this teaser for
making angels.
How did you have to pay to havethat space empty and have your,
just you?
And uh, what was your directorwith you?

Speaker 3 (39:44):
uh, yes, uh.
Well, I was directing, I wasdirecting uh cynthia, our
cinematographer.
He brought his uh, his his uh,gaffer and grip okay oh, andrew
weber.
And then it was.
You saw um on screen.
Uh, that was um michelle canter, the founder of cinefem.
Very talented filmmaker as welland actress, and she portrays

(40:07):
our dorothy parker.
And then, of course, you see mestanding on the stage.
It was the four of us andoriginally it was going to be
solely a photo shoot.
Uh, it turned into a teasershoot and they gave us a deal on
it.
The the wilshire e-bill theaterwas very kind to us okay, so
they did charge you generally um, they charged us, but they

(40:27):
didn't charge us as much as theymight have.

Speaker 2 (40:29):
Oh no, I get it the same thing happened at the
Biltmore.

Speaker 3 (40:31):
Yeah, we still paid for it.
We still had to pay forinsurance.
We still had to pay for thelocation.
One of the things you can do isyou can pick off times either
days of week if it's a shortshoot, or times when normally
the industry shuts down, like wedid with Night Rain.
Night Rain we started shootingthat on December 6th at the
Biltmore.
We finished around the 23rd.
Most productions have shut downby then, so we got a very

(40:55):
special deal.
We also got a special dealbecause our production dealt
with issues that dealt with theBiltmore Hotel, specifically
Elizabeth Short and her untimelyand brutal murder, known as the
Black Dahlia murder.
Uh, biltmore had some shadethrown on it from that people.
It was rumored that she was aprostitute, which she wasn't,

(41:16):
that she brought her tricks tothe biltmore, which she didn't,
and it's not that kind of place.
Uh, they liked the idea of usmaking a movie that was true to
the story of Elizabeth Short,the events leading up to her
murder.
So they really embraced us.
They gave us a very specialdeal for that.

Speaker 2 (41:36):
That's awesome, because I know it's very hard,
because I like to recreate moviescenes.
And I wanted to recreate thescene with Jack Nicholson from I
think it's called Five EasyPieces, where he clears the
diner table and there's a dinerdown the street from him that
had almost looked like thatexact diner set up from that era
.
And I walked in and asked theowner.

(41:57):
I said you know, I'd like torecreate the scene in this
restaurant and you know, this isjust a little deli, this is not
like anything fancy.
And he sat down and goes so, uh, what's in it for me?
and I went well, you know, I, Ijust you know he wanted to be in
it maybe no, no, no, he wanted,he wanted money he just wanted

(42:19):
the cold hard cash and I said Icould?
You know, I can give you 500bucks.
I'll come in before your shopopens, so you don't lose any
business.
I can probably knock this thingout in two hours.

Speaker 3 (42:31):
And he it was just kind of funny how he that was
reasonable, that was a fairoffer.

Speaker 2 (42:35):
Yeah, I thought it was, but he, he, he didn't want
to do it.
So I was just like I don't know.
I just kind of left it thereand just kind of I didn't walk
out.
But I said, okay, well, youjust let me know if you're
interested.
I gave him my card but, um, youknow, it's just kind of funny
how people, when they hearyou're making a movie, they

(42:56):
think you got money.
Yeah, that's often theassumption I it's.

Speaker 3 (42:58):
It helps to well and I guess, see in los angeles,
where you do have people with agreat deal more than what
productions have, they're oftenmore yeah forgiving of certain
things yeah um, because thatthat is.
That's.
That's kind of a hard line.
That's a hard line from whatyou're describing and I I have

(43:18):
not experienced that, gratefully.
And we've, we've worked atwe've.
We shot at um, pacific dining,sadly no longer in existence
Very historic restaurant.
We shot at Crystal Pier inPacific Beach.
They were very fair to us.

(43:42):
Biltmore was amazing.
Biltmore was truly amazing, andLA itself, the people of Los
Angeles and they're used toseeing productions.
At one point it was reallysweet.
We were up on Mulholland Drive,which is also a very historic
place, looking at the Hollywoodsign and we were shooting.
My car is supposed to drivepast the Hollywood sign and the

(44:06):
line is how does anybody everget anywhere around here?
And it's, it's a doubleentendre, because it's hard in
the business and hard justtraffic wise.

Speaker 2 (44:16):
Oh yeah, oh, I see what you mean.

Speaker 3 (44:18):
Space, space, distance wise.
But there was a group up thereat the time, a tour group, and
who uh was running the tourgroup was like are you guys
shooting a movie?
I'm trying to, you know,explain to them that all kinds
of movies get shot.
I'm like, yes, yes, uh, it'scalled night rain, nice meeting
everybody.
You know you're friendly to thetour people too, and it, I

(44:39):
think I think it does.
I think generally it reallyhelps when you can find people
you can really work with andfind to you and vice versa.
It's like it really makes adifference, because the hard
lining thing I guess you know,maybe, like you said, he maybe
had an idea that you had a lotmore to give, but that that's a

(45:02):
pretty reasonable offer.
I don't think we, I think someof our, some of our offers
included like we'll pay youaround that amount, say $500 or
something like that, and we'lleat there, you know, and when
you're talking about you know,all this cast and crew, that's,
that's good business for them.
So, yeah, so I I'm, we've beenpretty blessed.

(45:23):
We've been pretty blessed withwhat we've and I can hardly wait
to keep going.
I mean, it's been so difficult.
First we had the lockdowns,then we had strikes, you know,
then to have to defer theauthority over the California.

Speaker 2 (45:35):
Coast Guard to Governor Newsom now.
The Coast Guard or the NationalGuard?

Speaker 3 (46:03):
The National Guard.

Speaker 2 (46:06):
Oh, so that happened today.

Speaker 3 (46:09):
Yeah, that was just announced within the last couple
of hours.
Yeah, that a federal judge madethat determination.
So there's an injunction.
There's an injunction againstthe White House to deploy any
more of the National Guard andother troops.

Speaker 2 (46:22):
I think that's kind of too bad.
They're just tearing the placeapart.

Speaker 3 (46:25):
You know I was there interestingly.

Speaker 2 (46:26):
Oh were you really.
You know, I was thereinterestingly, I was down there.

Speaker 3 (46:28):
I was down there on tuesday and, while I think there
were some there, I believethere were some of these
incidents going on.
Uh, and that was earlier on,but, um, when I was there, I did
not see any of that.
I did not see any of that,although I did not see any of
that, although I did see a lotof vandalism, unfortunately.

Speaker 2 (46:50):
Well, it opens your eyes up to what the media really
covers and they change yourviewpoint.
You have no idea what's realanymore.

Speaker 3 (46:57):
Which is why I went there, yeah that's nice.
Well, I'm seeing so many peopleposting whatever side they're
saying they're on back and forth.
Yeah, exactly, I thought wellyou know, I said to a friend of
mine we were on he was with meon the phone at the time and I
said you know what, let's justgo.
So I took Slauson to Alameda,Alameda, right into Temple and

(47:18):
right into the First Street areaand I drove through it a couple
of times and I was askingpeople from my car like you know
, why are you here?
Uh and um, I got like offersfor like five dates and I was
like, okay, I don't think, Idon't know that that's what you
guys are here, but that'sapparently why some of you are
here but it takesall time and there was a guy

(47:40):
like selling flags of mexico andother people like you know.
You know door to door dash andthings like that like coming in
and like bringing food to peopleand you know door, you know
door to door dash and thingslike that, like coming in and
like bringing food to people,and you know, I mean it's just.
I heard about that in thesixties from friends of mine who
grew up in the sixties sayingyou know it was some people were
there because they were verypassionately inflamed with the

(48:03):
issues and some people are thereto you know, pick people up or
whatever.

Speaker 2 (48:05):
Yeah, it's, it's.
It's's amazing how the mediaslants things, and it doesn't
matter which network you watch,it all seems to be garbage.

Speaker 3 (48:14):
It's very social media and you'll see too, like I
will always fact check nowPeople will post.
Pope Leo XIV said this they'redeploying trips to Disneyland
and I looked that up and I waslike, uh, deploying trips to
Disney, disneyland?
And I looked that up and I waslike, okay, I cannot find a
single story that verifies this,so I don't think this is real.
Um, you know, and it's like I'mjust finding myself fact

(48:37):
checking everything, which iswhy, for me, most of my posts,
rather than my opinions which,while my opinions are worth a
lot to me, at the end of the dayI don't.
I don't, I'm not a lawmaker,I'm not a politician, I'm not
even an attorney I've consulted.
I consulted, for you might befamiliar with this.
I consulted, for you'reprobably familiar with Tommy

(49:00):
Wiseau of the Room.
He was the subject of the movieDisaster.
Artist with James Franco,artist with James Franco, and
there was a lawsuit, across-border lawsuit, from
Canada to the US and now here inthe US and I consulted for that
case, I used to tutor attorneys.
Someone once asked me well, areyou an attorney?
No, I'm not an attorney, but Iconsulted for attorneys, and I

(49:22):
also have.
I've also tutored pre-law.
I should say not attorneys.
I tutored, more specifically,pre-law students, but I know
something about the law.
But I'm not a lawmaker, I'm nota politician, I'm not an
attorney, I'm not a judge.
It's not up to me.
I have my opinions.

(49:43):
Sure, the internet is filledwith opinions.
This is this, this is this,this is but I generally like to
just post stories that arereliable when it comes to things
like that, when it comes toactual facts.
Yeah.
Because, at the end of the day,I could verse my opinion on
Tommy Wiseau's case, for example.
I was consultant for that case.
I can say this is what Iobserved, these are my opinions,

(50:04):
but I don't ultimately make thedecisions.

Speaker 2 (50:08):
Well, I think it's unfortunate.
There's a thousand, at least athousand guys and gals on
YouTube that are saying the skyis falling, but they don't give
you a solution.
What should we do?
There's nothing I can do aboutimmigration.
There's nothing I can do aboutIsrael.
There's nothing I can do aboutisrael attacking iran or

(50:29):
anything, but they pounded intoour heads and make us feel
helpless.
I mean, what am I going to do?

Speaker 3 (50:34):
pick up a rifle, and you know, it's just and it's
just about not to, becauseyou'll probably, you'll probably
be taken out when you do.

Speaker 2 (50:42):
I mean, oh sure oh sure, but I just think, I think
it's, but I'm trying to steeraway from not to mention because
my channel is kind of what'sthat- I said, not to mention,
people get hurt oh yeah, yeah,but I think it's unfortunate
that they're steering the potinstead of providing solutions
and nobody's providing solutions, because I lived in Arizona for
10 years and there were Mexicanpeople everywhere and they were

(51:05):
the nicest people.
None of us.
We had landscapers that wereMexican and people working in
all the shops and they were thenicest people.
We never saw any violence.
But when you move back east,it's like, oh my God, the
Mexicans.
It's like what, what?
We didn't see anything.
I don't know what you see inSouthern California.

Speaker 3 (51:22):
You know, when I was in downtown LA, I didn't see any
of that and I'm not denyingthat there was, at one point,
violence.
I saw graffiti.
I saw the footage of peoplesetting Waymo cars on fire and
throwing rocks down at policecars and things like that.

(51:43):
Did it escalate to the pointwhere you needed to deploy 4,000
National Guard troops and 100Marines?
I think that was the latestnumber I read.
I didn't see that.
I think that the footage that Idid see often being replayed

(52:07):
was the more violent footagethey didn't show, the more
peaceful.
But violence is news, I suppose, and of course you're right.
I mean there is this desire toshape the minds of people.
I think it was during the daysof Augustus Caesar.
The expression he who controlsthe mob rules Rome.

(52:27):
So if you are going to shapethe way people think and feel, I
think, especially feeling.
I think one of the easiest waysto manipulate people is through
their emotion, emotions.
I try to look at it fromcertain perspectives.
I'm eight and a half years inphilosophy.

(52:47):
I've been literally indisciplines that teach me to
think or attempt to thinklogically about things and look
at facts.
One of the facts that doesn'tescape me is that if these
troops hadn't been deployed andif a budget of $134 million
wasn't driven towards that,maybe some of that could be, I

(53:10):
don't know.
Put towards the LA homeless, wehave the highest homeless
population and an audit has beendone and there is still no
proof that any monies that havebeen allotted to the homeless of

(53:37):
Los Angeles have actually madeit to those organizations that
will help the homeless and foodand real health care.
Not just insurance, but actualcare.
Yeah, Make it available.

Speaker 2 (53:53):
Yeah, that makes sense.

Speaker 3 (53:55):
I support these things that people refer to as
liberal.
I think of them as being veryhumane.
My father was a liberalDemocrat.
My mother was a conservativeRepublican.
That's how I grew up and I'm anindependent and I don't mean I
sometimes vote Democrat orsometimes conservative
Republican.
That's how I grew up and I'm anindependent and I don't mean I
sometimes vote Democrat orsometimes vote Republican.
I mean I'm a real.
I'm a champion of independentsand third parties.
I have been since 1996.

(54:17):
So that has gotten me into sometrouble.
Some people don't like that, butthat is who I am.
So if that's uh I'm not.

Speaker 2 (54:27):
I know I won't please everybody no, you'll never
please everyone, and I I try tostay out of it altogether.
I I kind of.
I see things differently nowthat I'm older than when I was
younger, but um, did you eversee the movie harold and maude
with bud cord and ruth gordon?

Speaker 3 (54:45):
oh my god.
There's a wonderful line inthere about.
Consistency is not a humantrait is one of the lines in the
movie.
The other moment I love in themovie is when he asks her about
doesn't she engage in any moreprotests.
This film was made in the early70s and she says well, yes, she

(55:07):
says oh, every day in my ownindividual way, and she's, you
know, much older than he is.
This is part of the story.
I think it starts.
I think you were saying, like,what am I going to do about this
?
What am I going to do?
I think you make changes inyour own individual way and I

(55:31):
think you do it every time youtreat a human being with dignity
.
I think every time you treat acreature with dignity and even
our enemies love our enemies.
I think even with people wewould perceive as enemies people
with a different point of viewI've seen people get very
inflamed.
I've been named, called, andI'll say Would you please kindly
not say those?
I've had people call me someone.
Somebody in my q&a recentlyreferred to me as a fraud and
I'll say would you please kindlynot say those things?
I've had people call me.
Somebody in my Q&A recentlyreferred to me as a fraud.

(55:51):
I was like, well, no, this ishow this is.
I'm trying to reason in thesituation.
I'm trying, well, this is oneof the stalkers most likely.
But I try not to.
I try not to inflame situationsand I try to at all costs treat
people the way I would want tobe treated basically so even if
they don't agree with my pointof view, even if they become

(56:12):
hostile, try to.
I try to somehow summonsomething valuable, and so in
that way too, that's.
That's one way that you canalways do something, no matter
how helpless we may be made tofeel at times.
I think we're not, but you'reright that we can be made to

(56:35):
feel that way.

Speaker 2 (56:37):
So your current, we're going to kind of steer it
back to to the filmmaking Cause.
I'm thinking filmmaking.

Speaker 3 (56:56):
But I guess when films deal with real life
subjects, you know I mean MakingAngels has elements about race
and things like that.
So I guess you know it doestouch on all of those things.

Speaker 2 (57:01):
So I just where'd you get all of your energy?
I mean mean, you have all thisamazing energy and focus and
excitement and that I didn't.
I wasn't expecting that.
When we had our first phonecall, it's like whoa, wow, she's
so passionate and you're, youknow movies, you're, you're
brilliant.
And how do you keep the energygoing and keep going and pushing

(57:24):
and pushing forward?
Because I know how hard it is.
I'm all by myself and you, I,you know I tried to hire a
cinematographer for my firstdocumentary in the middle of the
production at a shoot.
At the end of the shoot, hegoes I'm sorry, I'm not coming
back.
And I went.
Well, I gave you a contractwhere the you have to give me
two weeks notice.
He's like I'm sorry, I'm movingto Cincinnati and I can't do
that.

Speaker 3 (57:52):
And he was gone, so I had to do the rest of the
cinematography myself, which isfine, I know how to do it, you
know.

Speaker 2 (57:55):
It would have been interesting if he would have
been able to refer you tosomebody.

Speaker 3 (57:57):
Oh, no, no, no, okay, no I work, I've had situations
like that.
I although I have had peopledrop out just a few days, field
day, our, our director droppedout a few days before and our
cinematographer, um, took on alot of things and it was
embedded in the script.
You know, a lot of direction isembedded in scripts.
Yeah, yeah.
The directors don't always knowthat, but it's true.

(58:17):
Yes, I have such a deep, deeprespect for writers, but I have
a deep respect for every personon a moviemaking team and that's
why I I don't.
I I know directors guild hascertain rules.
Writers guild has certain rules, as directors guild can be
tough, but I don't put a film byin my name.
It's because I figured it's byevery single person who worked

(58:40):
on that movie.

Speaker 2 (58:41):
So so where do you buy in?

Speaker 3 (58:43):
all the credits.

Speaker 2 (58:44):
So you have an idea for a film and you just call
people up and say, hey, it'sgene, let's make a movie, or you
say okay, I don't, because I Ihave a hard time, I, I I had
someone once.

Speaker 3 (58:57):
I had someone once say to me I want to be like gina
, just run around, make movies,like run around and make movies.
Okay, I'll tell you how I runaround.
Yeah, it starts.
It starts with an idea, itstarts with something that
inspires me.
It often incorporates somethingtrue or historical.
In the case of the scarabist,you had a true story of
therapist abuse.
In the case of night rain, itcame together when I realized it
needed to be something thatliberated elizabeth short, the

(59:21):
real elizabeth short, not falseimage, um, making angels.
Uh, you know, you have thischaracter, dorothy parker, who's
inspiring these five womenartists, and zora neale hurston
as well, and these are realpeople.
And then, of course, you havethis project vamp out that
incorporates vlad the impalerand tommy was so, and kind of

(59:42):
mashes their stories together.

Speaker 2 (59:43):
Oh see, I haven't watched the trailer to uh vamp
out yet here yeah, that's, yeah.

Speaker 3 (59:48):
That's an introductory video lad the
impaler.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, andvampires so I've already been in
touch with some of thehistorians who work really, you
know, and uh and malaki, and,and they have documents that
have never been seen before.
They have.
They have an incredible storeof documents that were never
released about the historicalperson who Dracula is based on,

(01:00:11):
and I just I become veryinterested in real stories and
true stories, in historicalevents and people.

Speaker 2 (01:00:20):
So are these considered historical fiction?
Are these historical?

Speaker 3 (01:00:24):
It's not documentary to say, you know, it's almost
like.
It's almost like taking thehistorical details of lad the
impaler and the historicaldetails of tommy was so and
bringing them together.
But it's, it's so, it's play.
I mean, I I don't know if Icall it, I don't know if I call
it historical fiction.

(01:00:44):
It's almost like historicaldetails embedded in a narrative.
There's, so there's two storieshappening at once, like night
rain.
Night rain even had elements offactuality because they're
really.
This stalker character in themovie is a composite of my
stalkers, um, and the people whoare characters in night rain
are based on real people in mylife so you've taken somebody

(01:01:07):
stalking you and turned it intoa movie kind of.

Speaker 2 (01:01:09):
I mean, you've taken your own experiences.

Speaker 3 (01:01:12):
Oh, one of them contacted my producer days
before we were getting ready toshoot and said you don't want to
work with her.
She's just a liar, she's ahorrible person.
And she was like, well, whydoes this person even care?
But they were basically tryingto get my production shut down
right before it started.
That was their aim apparently.
It didn't work, thank God, andwe had a great shoot, wow.
But yeah, there are some veryinteresting people in the world.

(01:01:34):
We'll say, yeah, and what theirmotivations are and why they do
what they do?
I guess sometimes they're beingpaid, sometimes they may have
some other reason, I cannotascertain, but I leave it to
them to work that out forthemselves.
Um, but it is interesting, andso it was interesting that life
was emulating, art was emulatingmy life was emulating the art.

(01:01:57):
There was sort of this metareality and, yeah, mirrors kind
of lined up together and sort ofreflecting each other almost in
ad infinitum.
So, um, but, but it starts witha script.
For me there is a script.
The teaser was certainly ananomaly to that, but there were
reasons for that because of thestrikes.

(01:02:17):
A screenplay is written, it isworked, production meetings
happen for sometimes months,like with Night Rain.
We have table reads, like wedid for Making Angels, to
finalize the script.
Once the script is finalizedand generally it's one of those
things you know when you know itthat it's workable.

(01:02:39):
And it's not just that it tellsa story, it communicates that
story to the people it needs tocommunicate to, which is your
team.
If you can see actorsdeveloping the character as
you've seen them, or maybe eventhings you haven't seen, but
work, if your crew understandswhat's happening in the
screenplay, then you've writtena good screenplay.

(01:03:00):
Agents will say a goodscreenplay is a script that
sells, because that's their job.
But I say a great screenplay isa screenplay that communicates
to the cast and crew as it'ssupposed to.
It's a blueprint.
It's a blueprint to make a movieas opposed to architectural
plans that that create abuilding in a similar way.
And so you have the structure,and the structure is very clear
and people going in know whatthey're shooting, know what

(01:03:23):
they're performing, know whatthey're doing, and then, of
course, you still have all thesethings happen that you can't
even anticipate.
But it's all very, very plannedout and you only have so many
days to do it.
You have your equipment rented.
Some of it is owned, maybe bysome of your crew members, but a
lot of it has to be rentedregardless and the locations
have to be rented and the peopleeverybody has to be paid and,

(01:03:47):
god willing, I mean sometimesvery miraculous things have to
happen for that to work out.
It's really amazing how thingscan come together in a movie
shoot.
You plan everything and youstill can't plan for everything,
and I think it was RobertAltman who said the best things
on his films have often beenjust happy accidents, and that's
a pretty humble thing for adirector like Robert Altman to

(01:04:11):
say.
I mean, he really is aphenomenal director.
I was recently watching MASHagain and I was watching the
Player not that long ago for apodcast that I did with a group,
and it's just you watch him andyou go wow, wow.
There's a certain mastery inshortcuts.
Also, there's a certain masteryin what he does, and yet even
he admits that some of it has tojust happen accidentally.

Speaker 2 (01:04:36):
Do you find yourself watching films, now that you
know so much about movie making,where you can't enjoy the film
like you did before you made afilm, cause I see stuff now I'm
like oh, this is this, is this,is all green screen, or you know
, um, we went to see mysteryimpossible the most recent with
tom cruise and and there werescenes that just didn't make any

(01:04:56):
sense to me, the way they putit together, and I'm like what
did they do?
Would they just say, oh, fuckit, I'm just gonna, we'll just
make it like this and put it outthere it's tom cruise, so
whatever yeah, I haven't seen ityet I can't comment on that
intelligently.

Speaker 3 (01:05:10):
I must admit that I'm not a big action film or
superhero film person, I havewatched them.
I will say that I have a lot of.
My appreciation has grown.
I mentioned that I was mentoredby David Lynch.
Every time I watch David's workI can find a new appreciation
for it and what he accomplisheddid he do blue velvet?

(01:05:32):
oh yeah, oh, blue velvet is suchan interesting story, oh yeah
isn't that?
That's one of my favorite films, basically the long the short
story, the long story short theshort story of blue velvet being
made and originally he wantedval kilmer in the role.
That went to colin glocklin,which actually and talk about a
happy accident because they hada wonderful uh filmmaking, movie

(01:05:55):
making show making marriage.
Colin glocklin was amazing intwin peaks.
It's hard to imagine anybodyelse in the role of agent dale
cooper um oh, yeah, yeah youknow, but uh he, no one wanted
to touch that movie.
Um bell kilmer thought that itreminded him of soft porn.
He wasn't going to touch it.

Speaker 2 (01:06:14):
Uh, it got made because it was kind of edgy yeah
especially for its time and um,and because it's still edgy.

Speaker 3 (01:06:21):
so for its time it was really edgy and uh, I um am
very well aware, working withdavid's team and having had
communications with david too,um, and jennifer lynch and her
her uh, her um representative aswell, um, that movie was made

(01:06:42):
because david gave final cut ofdune to Dino De Laurentiis.
That's why Blue Velvet got made.
That's what he sacrificed,that's his offering on the altar
of filmmaking to make BlueVelvet.

Speaker 2 (01:06:57):
Lynch was part of Dune at first.

Speaker 3 (01:07:00):
Pardon.

Speaker 2 (01:07:01):
Lynch directed Dune.
He directed Dune.
Oh, I didn't know that.

Speaker 3 (01:07:05):
Yeah, he directed the very first adaptation of Dune
and he did not like it.
He did not like the end result,and a large part of that was
because he gave up the final cutto Dino De Laurentiis, the
producer.
But that's how Blue Velvet wasmade.
No one wanted to touch it.
It was not going anywhere inHollywood until he gave that up,

(01:07:29):
and thus Blue Velvet wasproduced.

Speaker 2 (01:07:33):
Here and I'll show you how much I love I've got
little sound effects, a boardsound effects thing here, and
here's a line from Blue Velvet.
God damn, you're one suavefucker.

Speaker 3 (01:07:45):
So, that's Dennis Hopper speaking to dean
stockwell yeah, oh yeah it'svery close friends with, uh,
russ tamblyn.
That's how russ tamblyn ended upin the role of dr jacobi on the
twin peaks series, because whenhe saw blue velvet premiere in

(01:08:07):
support of his very, very goodfriend, dean Dean Swath but he
was also very good friends withDennis Hopper and in an after
party he said to David, I'dreally like to work with you,
and David's like oh Ross, Ithink we can do something.
And David was a filmmaker and agentleman, so if he said he was
going to do something, heactually did it.
And he did going to do something.

(01:08:30):
He actually did it and he did.
Russ Tamblyn did not have toaudition for the role of Dr
Jacoby.
It was a role that was shapedlargely for Russ by David and
then Russ took it the rest ofthe way and with his artistic
background he did a very goodjob, I thought, with it.
And's the whole, the whole loreof things is so interesting and
I I've been very blessed toknow very remarkably talented,

(01:08:54):
creative people who inspire me,who in turn then inspire me and
inspire me to keep going.
It's not easy now.
Filmmaking has changed a greatdeal even since the lockdowns,
especially since the strikes.
That includes independentfilmmaking as well changed a
great deal even since thelockdowns especially since the
strikes.
That includes independentfilmmaking as well, but um, I
guess it's just something insideof you.
When it's just something insideof you, when it's what you do,

(01:09:16):
you have to do it well, isn't itfascinating?

Speaker 2 (01:09:19):
you mentioned changes , how what once took a room full
of equipment and you can do itall.
Now people some make somemovies on their iphones.
Yeah, exactly, and this isfascinating.
Like just to record music, Ican do it all right here on a
laptop and record a commerciallyviable piece of music.

(01:09:39):
Um, that you needed a wholeroom of equipment 30 years ago
to make and you needed a lot ofmoney because you had oh yeah 35
millimeter, and that was veryexpensive oh yeah, the film,
yeah

Speaker 3 (01:09:52):
thing to do, and so you you now to be a filmmaker,
and I will distinguishfilmmaking and movie making.
You know, film, a filmmaker,can grab a super 8 camera or
their phone, as you mentioned,and they can shoot the whole
thing themselves without a crew,even without a cast, depending
on what you're shooting.

(01:10:12):
But if you want to make movies,if you want to make motion
pictures, that's a littledifferent.
You do need a team to do that.
There is a certain scope of amotion picture.
It doesn't make one better thanthe other because each one
functions very differently.
I couldn't have made Night Rainas a film because we needed
those 45 people on that set.

(01:10:32):
But, uh, when, uh, I wasworking with my friends in film
school, we were making films, we, we had a very small cast, a
very small crew, sometimesbarely any.
Sometimes.
I knew people who just went outand shot footage of plants with
their Super 8 camera and editedit, and it was beautiful

(01:10:55):
footage and it told a story.
It told a story.
In some way.
It's storytelling.
It's storytelling with acertain kind of medium.

Speaker 2 (01:11:03):
Wow, I just think it's fascinating what you can do
now.

Speaker 3 (01:11:06):
It's amazing.
It's amazing and you don't needlarge sums of money anymore to
do it.

Speaker 2 (01:11:12):
No, and I think the other thing that's added to it
is the Internet.
I mean, think about 30 yearsago I would have had no idea
that you existed or I would havenever known about your films.
I've met so many people aroundthe world, especially in Great
Britain not filmmakers justpeople I've interviewed or
talked to and the internet isbringing the world together.

(01:11:33):
A lot of people don't like it,but I found AI has helped me
write things.
I don't use it to write thingsverbatim, but you see that all
these tools are kind of makingthe process easier, especially
for an independent artist likeyourself.
It isn't represented by a majorstudio.
Do you find that the technologyis making things easier?
Are you, are you anti AI?

Speaker 3 (01:11:55):
I'm not.
I'm not an AI person.
I'm not.
I have no judgments about theuse of it.

Speaker 2 (01:12:00):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:12:01):
I I don't have any judgments about it.
I someone was actually recentlysuggesting to me for me to use
chat GPT and I said I don't usechat GPT to write.
And he said, well, you coulduse it just to create this, to
format your screenplays.
And I said, well, formatting myscreenplays is also writing.

(01:12:23):
That's also part of the writingprocess, especially for me.
So I think it just depends oneach individual person.
And of course there are certainsays I mean, it's interesting,
I'm an independent artist, I'man independent artist and
filmmaker, but I'm not fullyindependent because I do have a
studio, so I'm a small studioowner.

(01:12:46):
I do have a studio, so I'm asmall studio owner making
independent style movies,independently of major studios.
But I'm right there in a townwhere the major studios exist
and have constant interactionwith individuals related to
those places.
So I'm in a really weirdposition.
I'm kind of I'm pulled in a lotof directions.

(01:13:07):
I see things from a lot ofdifferent perspectives.
I have no judgments about whattools people want to use to tell
their story, because, after all, it's their story.
Who am I to say you should dothis or you should do that?
You know, I don't think I'm ina position to do that, um, but I

(01:13:28):
personally tend to do thingsstill the old fashioned way.
Maybe it's just cause I'mstubborn, maybe it's just cause
I'm a creature of habit, I don'tknow.
Well, if you, if you know thatthere are issues, I know there
are issues in the industry withthings like AI for actors and
writers and and uh, now there'sI don't know if you heard, but
the first lawsuit's beenlaunched.
The very first lawsuits relatedto AI have been launched by

(01:13:50):
Universal and Disney.
Apparently, there is contentthat has been created through AI
that is somehow a violation oftheir copyrights and trademarks,
potentially.

Speaker 2 (01:14:01):
Oh, definitely.

Speaker 3 (01:14:02):
So here we go.
I was told by an attorney who'smy attorney is one of the top
50 copyright trademark attorneysin the country, daniel Katman,
and he told me they've alreadythey've already been briefed
about this stuff.
It's coming, you know.
So now it's arrived.

Speaker 2 (01:14:17):
Well, what I'm finding is, I think, how AI
works is it goes out and queriesall these pieces of art.
So if you say, create a videoof a cat and a ball of yarn, it
goes out and pulls all thesepieces from different pieces of
work on the Internet and puts itinto this final product, but it
can't be copyrighted.
The Copyright Office told meyou can't copyright that.

Speaker 3 (01:14:39):
Well, the issue is because a copyright has to be
something that's created by anindividual, created by a human
being, not by a technology,technological machine.
But we are the first lawsuitagainst, I suppose, those who
own the ai technologypotentially, I mean, as some,
the scarapist became the.

(01:15:01):
I was talking to um, a frenchdirector who has directed some
very commercial Hollywood filmsas well, and he said, yeah, he
said that he knew about theScarabist and he said that is
considered in Europe to be avery successful movie because it
had such an influence onculture and on cinema, because

(01:15:22):
you had from Get Out to Unsane,to Greta, to Hypnotic, to
Hypnosis, to Split, to all theseother movies that emulated
aspects, or even the Scarifistitself, like Hypnotic, for
Netflix did, and so he's likethat's what we consider to be
successful, because it'sculturally impactful.

(01:15:43):
It's not about how commerciallyor not saying it wasn't
commercially successful, but howcommercially successful it is
or not.
I do take issue because I saw alot of that going on before AI
technology was being implementedthat way.
You know it's okay, okay, I getit.
Maybe you're inspired by it,maybe you just want to take
things from it.
You can't take concepts.

(01:16:04):
Of course that's notcopyrightable, but it would be
nice to get an acknowledgement.
It would be nice to get anacknowledgement and I I do.
That's where I take some issuewith ai ai pulling from these
different artists to createsomething new, interesting.
But where's the where?
Where does the artist getcredited or paid through all of
that?
And the answer is they don't.

(01:16:24):
Of course they don't yeah um,and I I do have some issue with
that I don't.

Speaker 2 (01:16:29):
It almost makes me afraid to put anything on the
internet anymore, because younever know what's going to be
ripped off just by accident Idon't know if you've seen this.

Speaker 3 (01:16:38):
I don't know if you've seen this, but there's
also this issue, peter, that ifyou, for example, if you post
the lyrics to a song or, uh, theverses of a poem on social
media platforms like Facebook,there's an issue with commons
licensing and things like thatonce you've done that.
So, yeah, copyrights andintellectual property are going

(01:16:59):
to become a really big hotbedissue, especially in
entertainment with all the newtechnologies.
There's no doubt about it.
We're just at the beginning ofit now, so it is a very real
thing and it's, yeah, it's, it's, it's arrived now officially,

(01:17:22):
yeah, yeah, people thoughtcoming, but it has officially
arrived.
So I, I think, also for my ownpurposes, it also helps me not
to step into that, but that'sbecause my work does go out into
the commercial world and thelast thing I want is something
popping up where it's like youknow, it's embedded in the film.
The sound is finished, the color, the colorizing is finished,
everything's done or theconversation is finished, or
correct is finished, and thensomeone says, oh yeah, you can't

(01:17:43):
use that because that's I'd belike, oh, I'd be like, oh Jesus,
oh my God, I could be spending.
I could be spending tens ofthousands of dollars just to
take that one little piece outor some such thing.
It's just not it's not worth itto me in what I do, Cause I have
to really streamline things,Cause I have relatively tight
budgets although our upcomingbudgets are not as tight as
they've been but still, uh, youdon't want to find yourself in

(01:18:06):
that situation.

Speaker 2 (01:18:08):
So, but still, you don't want to find yourself in
that situation.
So your current project isMaking Angels correct.

Speaker 3 (01:18:12):
That's one of our current projects, as is Vamp Out
the one I mentioned the mashupof Vlad the Impaler and Tommy
Wiseau.
There's a very prominentfestival that invited us to send
our catalog of projects.
I should be hearing back withinthe next, probably week.

(01:18:32):
Uh, it's very nerve-wracking.
Um, we are working on differentprojects at once.
There are a couple of books too, titles of books that are being
not just developed butfinalized, and so you've written
yeah, and illustrated yeah,yeah, there's a number of them.

(01:18:52):
I mean I just I've just got somuch to do most of the time so.

Speaker 2 (01:18:56):
So you write books, movies, and you're a musician
too.
You scored some of the music, I, when I watched um, uh, what
was night rain?
You were doing some of thepiano work in that, aren't you?
Yeah, wow.

Speaker 3 (01:19:15):
I didn't train for piano formally, I trained for
classical guitar.
There's actually a classicalguitar on the side of me.
You can almost see the case.

Speaker 2 (01:19:25):
Oh, you play guitar too.

Speaker 3 (01:19:27):
I do play guitar too, I keep going the wrong way with
it, but everything's a mirrorimage.
You can almost see.
You can almost see like wherethe guitar case is right there,
oh beautiful.
Yeah, we're talking about I hadformal training in guitar, but
not piano.
But yeah, Classical.
Yeah, classical, oh wow.
And some blues and some bluesand folk and, oh wow, two

(01:19:49):
different genres of guitar.
Yeah, I at one time I thought Iwas going to be like a metal
guitar player for a metal band.
I had this idea for a metalband and I was like, ok, this
and post-punk, it's just.
You know, there's.
It's just.
I think that when you're acreative person, you don't want
to stop it, you never want tostop it, you never want to stop

(01:20:10):
it.
Oh yeah, you want to make sure,I guess.
I think I think the energycomes from that.
It comes from that, the need,the passion of it.
Um, it's what we're made for.
It's what we're made for.
We were made to make stuffthat's what it is to be a human
being, and I think that,actually, the struggles since

(01:20:42):
the lockdowns, well,particularly since the strikes,
though, I've had to consume alot less and create.
I don't know about creatingmore, but maybe more fervently,
maybe more of a consciousness,because you don't have those
other distractions and it's justsomething you have to do.
It just comes, oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:20:56):
We had talked about that, about how some people say
well, you should just focus onone thing and make that, but I
can't.
I do painting, I've writtenbooks, just like you.
Poetry music movies.

Speaker 3 (01:21:11):
I can even see from your environment that that's all
around you.
And.
I just talked about this becauseI just did a poetry performance
at this beautiful historicaldance studio.
The daughter of one of thefounders of modern dance now
occupies the studio.
And I was saying that thingbecause I was being asked like,

(01:21:32):
well, you know, you're doing allthese things and I don't
necessarily do them all at thesame time, but I do them.
And I said you know, arts aredifferent from post-industrial
assembly line.
You know manufacturing, oneperson makes this part and the
other person makes that part.
So you've got somebody makesthe carburetor and somebody else

(01:21:54):
focuses on spark plugs andsomebody else, and then you've
got a car at the end of it all.
Uh, arts are different.
Arts interweave, interact,interplay intercourse with each
other you know, it's just, it'snot.
I, I, I think it's actuallysomewhat unnatural for an artist
to try to be one thing.
Uh, one thing tends to bleedinto other things.

(01:22:16):
I, I, really, I would, I reallyappreciated what you created
with that film and incorporatingtaking a photograph, a
photographic image really, thatyou saw, and creating a painting
out of it and then making afilm about painting it.
That's just.
That makes sense to me.
That makes a lot more sensethan oh no, I only do this and

(01:22:38):
only that.
I only paint, but I don't reallywrite or draw or make films or
act or shoot or, you know, playmusic or whatever it is.
It seems to me very naturalwhen artists do multiple things.

Speaker 2 (01:22:52):
That's very natural and when I made that, it wasn't
initially made for you to see it, I was just I wanted people to
see the long process Becausemost people think, oh, he just
tosses off paintings, you know.
But you know, my has hasevolved over time, from really
rough and now I'm trying to bemore meticulous and doing
studies and sketches andstudying other artists, all the

(01:23:14):
stuff they told you to do incollege that I didn't listen to.
But now, now I'm doing it, butI want to people.
But the average person just islike ah, whatever, they're, like
my least popular videos onyoutube and yeah, that's okay.

Speaker 3 (01:23:27):
That's okay.
That's okay Because, you know,someone said something to me
really interesting Recently.
He said to me well,entertainment is more of a
passive demand.
You sit back and something ishappening to you.
Arts are a little moredemanding, arts are a little
more active Arts.
They provoke you to think andfeel things.

(01:23:50):
So if they're not as popular,that's okay.
Van Gogh sells one painting inhis lifetime to his brother and
now he's sold to David Geffen.
David Geffen bought hissunflowers in the highest bid in
history, in the highest bid inart history.
So I think that I think we alsoget oriented in this

(01:24:11):
technological world to think interms of clicks and hits and all
of these things.
But I don't think ultimatelythat should matter.
It could matter economically,but then not necessarily.
I think if we're going toretain our creative natures and
really honor them, I think wejust have to make stuff and not

(01:24:33):
worry too too much about therest of it, because you're not
going to please everybody,because it's hard.
Even samuel goldwyn, who wasone of the great producers of
the golden age, said we can makea tree, but we can't make a
star.
It's hard to know what thepublic wants.
You know, you put carrie grantthe most popular actor of the
time, but you put him in a moviewhere it's a serious drama,
where he portrays a surgeon andnobody goes to see it.

(01:24:54):
But it's Cary Grant.
So who knows why?
You know nobody.
It's pretty hard to predict.
It's better to make stuff.
It's better just to make stuff.
I think that's true too.
I think it's interesting that,for example, the year that
Chicago and the Gangs of NewYork came out, the Gangs of New

(01:25:15):
York was slated as the bigproduction.
I mean, it was Martin Scorsese,it was Daniel Day-Lewis, it was
so top-heavy Cameron Diaz andLeonardo DiCaprio.
So, of course, weinsteinCompany, miramax, thought this
was going to be our biggestproduction of the year.
They didn't anticipate that,because of the 2008 economic
collapse, everybody was going toflock towards chicago, which

(01:25:38):
became the big movie of the year.
So you have a taster likeweinstein.
And now we.
Weinstein's fate has beenaffirmed because he's been
convicted yet again.
But and I won't even go therebecause I have a Weinstein story
, but I won't go there, right?
Now.
No, yeah, yeah.

(01:26:01):
Well, I just I'm not that kindof actress.
So my movie Breath of Godwasn't made around 2003 when I
thought it might be.
But I wasn't willing to docertain things and I don't judge
people who did, but I was notraised that way.
But even Weinstein, who'sconsidered a taster and has so
much power and influence, noteven he could have predicted

(01:26:23):
that.
He did not predict that.
He didn't foresee whataudiences ultimately would
respond to, because they didn'trealize what kind of impact all
of these economic challengeswere going to have on the public
.
So we think we know something'sgoing to be this.
We don't, not even people whoare at the top of this industry

(01:26:43):
can absolutely affirm that whatthings are going to do.
Nobody predicted that the room,which is called the best, worst
movie ever made, was going to bethe celebrated movie that still
sells out at theaters, which isyeah, it's almost inconceivable
well, I think I've learned thattoo.

Speaker 2 (01:27:02):
Like with music, I stopped trying to write music
for the public and I just writewhat I like and I like it.
I have fun doing it, I put itout there and if they like it
most people don't like my stuff.
I've just come to accept thatand I'm just like what I don't
care, I just like it.

Speaker 3 (01:27:18):
And what you know.
It's interesting too.
This is an issue that I takeand this is a social media.
I've heard people say thingslike I don't like it, it's not
good, it's like wait, those aretwo different things.

Speaker 2 (01:27:34):
Yeah, yeah, that's true.

Speaker 3 (01:27:36):
You don't like it, and that's not wrong.
That's your opinion and it'ssubjective.
And art is made to provoke andart is subjective On many levels
.
It's subjective we well, thisis this, this is what I like,
this is what I don't like.
I like it, I don't like it.
I like it.

(01:27:56):
It's good, I don't like it'sbad.
No, that's not necessarily thecase.
I've watched movies or listenedto music that I can appreciate.
I don necessarily like it, butit certainly doesn't make it bad
.
Whatever that was supposed tomean.
Bad, good, bad, good.
I actually think that we needto regroup and restore our

(01:28:21):
sensibilities when it comes tothe arts and remember what to
value and what really matters,and I think that's a really good
way to kind of round everythingout of.
Everything we've talked about isI think we sit need to sit down
and reevaluate a lot of thingsthis isn't just about what kind
of monies are available or notavailable, or choices people are

(01:28:42):
making, what side of thepolitical fence someone is on.
I think all of us, as humanbeings, we need to collectively
rethink our valuation andremember what real worth means.

Speaker 2 (01:28:57):
Well, I have a theory that the 60s specifically, I
used to be a huge Beatles fan.
The rock group the Beatles,Sure.
But now that I'm older I heartheir music.
I'm like, how did that songmake it?
And I think the Beatles kind ofdumbed everybody down to what's
really good music, because youwent from Gershwin, neck and

(01:29:21):
Cole really crafted songwritersthat were making a lot of those
music back then.
Then income, love me do.

Speaker 3 (01:29:28):
Love me do as one verse and a chorus and although
they they pushed the envelope abit with things like the white
album, I think they wantedbeyond.
I think they wanted to getbeyond the pop uh yeah invasion
pop sound and george martin hada lot to do with the production
of that and Brian towards thatand you know, because they were

(01:29:49):
very inspired by people whoLynch was inspired by, you know.
So I mean, they're there, theywere, they were and they were
interested in in the RNB of theUnited States and I think it was
please, please, me was supposedto sound much slower and and
they sped it up.

Speaker 2 (01:30:10):
Yeah, they sped it up , so you're a Beatles.

Speaker 3 (01:30:13):
I know a lot of Beatles.
Well, I knew Beatles when Iremember I was a.
Really I was very interested inJohn Lennon, his anti-war
stance, and when he died I wasvery sad.
Oh yeah.
Back when I was 11.
My husband, guy Hoffman, whowas drummer in Violent Femmes of
Bodine's, was a very big fan ofBritish invasion bands like the

(01:30:34):
Beatles and the who, because helearned to drum from the age of
nine from those bands.
Yeah, oh yeah, and I'm veryfamiliar.
But I think that I'm trying tothink now.
My brain is just, if I can justthink for a minute like it's

(01:30:56):
going to hit me.
Who did it?
God, no oh man, it's gonna cometo me in a minute, it's all
right, yeah, it's like.
It's like, um, it's gonna cometo me in a minute.
It's like one of those momentswhere you're just like, no,
there's too, there are too many.

(01:31:17):
There are two.
Oh, roy orbison, there are toomany.
There are too many.
There are too many, um, far toomany songs Like I'll search
crying It'll bring up Aerosmith.
I'll search pretty woman, it'llbring up the movie.
I'm like no, no, I'm trying toget to Roy Orbison.
Roy Orbison.
Uh was a big influence on theBeatles.

(01:31:38):
Oh yeah.
Beatles, uh, george Martin, didI say George Harrison, george
Martin, their producer had a lotto do with affecting their
sound.
They had kind of an edgiersound when they were the Silver
Beatles playing out of clubslike in Hamburg and places like
that.
But I think that, yes, I thinkyou're right in the sense that
the whole thing of pop music popmusic the late 50s, early 60s

(01:32:06):
saw you heard a different kindof sound and a different kind of
lyric.
She loves you, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know it's, it's not
exactly, you know, protest song,but I mean.
But I guess in a way we've kindof always seen that, we've kind
of, you know, I think the movieindustry too has always seen

(01:32:29):
kind of these.
You know they'll have thesewhat they call screwball
comedies.
Sure.
Meet cutes, but then they'vealso had, you know, things like
Casablanca, confessions of aNazi Spy.
We've always seen in thepopular genres, even within
entertainment, different, uhdifferent elements, but
certainly I think that there wasa shift.

(01:32:52):
The beatles did create a prettybig shift in what was
considered was considered to benot only music but music culture
, because suddenly you had thefour mop tops all in their suits
.

Speaker 2 (01:33:04):
You know, that whole look was very crafted, it's very
crafted, and the beetle maniawas very crafted well, if you
want to see an interestingchannel on youtube, it's called
sage of quay, a guy named mikewilliams posted and he he talks
about a conspiracy that hethinks he's discovered that the
Beatles were the firstmanufactured boy band.

Speaker 3 (01:33:38):
I wouldn't doubt it, original members was Pete Best,
and Pete Best was pushed outbecause it was felt that
bringing in Ringo, who was veryestablished in the British music
industry and especially heplayed very well as a session

(01:34:01):
musician as well, was studiomusician and these other three
guys were not but their materialwas interesting.
Their songwriting wasinteresting, but bringing
bringing.
When brian epstein took them onin management brought them to
george martin.
That did change things andtheir image was crafted so in a
way that there is something tobe said about that there yeah
maybe not I wouldn't exactlycall them new kids on the block

(01:34:23):
or anything like that but therewas a quality oh, yeah, yeah
there was a quality whereby theywere, there was a certain
amount of manufacture going onwell, if you have, if you have
time, just check out the channel.

Speaker 2 (01:34:33):
It's pretty interesting.
He's got, he's done.
Just count.
Just I can't imagine how muchhour, how many hours he's put
into his research.
Um, it's kind of conspiratorial.
So if you're into kind of that,that spooky conspiratorial
stuff, he's a very nice guy.
He's been on my show a fewtimes but he's that's so cool
twisted.
Some people see this twisted.

(01:34:54):
I.
I never saw it that way.
Now that I see it, I can'tunsee it like oh, yeah, yeah,
yeah you know, once you seebuilding seven on 9, 11 fall
free fall speed.
If you're like wait a minute,something else wouldn't happen
on that day, then I don't know.
If you know about buildingseven, we're off on a deep off
in the weeds, yeah we could yeah, well, I I I know, I know some

(01:35:16):
things.

Speaker 3 (01:35:16):
I there's a poet, um, who wrote a book about 9-11 and
interviewed quite a number ofpeople, including people who
worked at the airports, one inparticular in LAX, who had a lot
to say about 9-11.
Yeah, I think there's a lotbeneath the surface when

(01:35:48):
scratched.

Speaker 2 (01:35:50):
And I know, if we say anything about it on YouTube,
they'll delete this video.
That's how controversial it is.
It's possible.
It's possible.
Oh, it's true.

Speaker 3 (01:36:10):
It's true, it's true, yeah, now.

Speaker 2 (01:36:11):
I'm tempted to let me see if I can find his name?

Speaker 3 (01:36:14):
who wrote the book and who formed it?
Do you know this person?
Oh, yes, yes, I did aperformance with him when his
book came out and he had a lotof interesting things to say.
Uh, san Sandra Hicks, who alsohas run for some offices, sandra
Hicks, um has a book out aboutnine 11.

(01:36:35):
That's very interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:36:36):
Oh, really Okay, I'm just looking at him up here.
Yeah, look that up when we'rewhen we're offline.

Speaker 3 (01:36:46):
He's a very interesting person and he did I,
he ran for political officewithin the last 10 15 years and
ah, the press and he.
He's a very interesting person.
He had a lot of interestingthings to say in that book.
I've used that word interestinga number of times because
interesting says a lot withoutit's it's, it's it's.
You know, I think it was noamchomsky who very deftly said

(01:37:12):
that he only reads the economicpapers because they're the only
ones that don't lie.
And he said and he said, youknow, I'm not trying to tout
conspiracy theories, okay.
He said I'm just presenting.
This is Noam Chomsky now.
Yeah.
Professor at MIT, professor oflinguistics, founder of, genitor

(01:37:35):
of grammar theory, brilliantman.
He said I'm not trying todevise or tout conspiracy theory
.
I am presenting facts.
If you deduce conspiracy fromthat, I can't help that.
I think what he's basicallytrying to say is that a lot of

(01:37:56):
the facts point to some of theconspiracies that are out there.
There's conspiracy theoriesthat are out there.
I try to look at facts.
I try to say these are thefacts and if this is my
interpretation, this is myinterpretation of those facts.
I try not to confuse the twothings and state my opinions as
if they are fact, because thatis a common problem in our age,

(01:38:20):
these days, and I think socialmedia has brought on some of
that as well.
Yeah, Um but I, just I.
I think that, um, it'simportant to be able to voice
what we think without danger.
I know that's naive, because ithappens anyway, but I think it

(01:38:41):
is important to be able todialogue again.
We've had, we've reached thepoint where volume on
conversation is very loud A lotof the time.
A lot of the time it's aboutpeople come in with an
assumption almost immediately,very defensive, and what is?
I'm right, you're wrong.

Speaker 2 (01:38:58):
Yes, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:38:59):
I think we've lost our sense of communication and
intimacy.
Doing that, lose that, and it'sa very high price to pay for
being feeling right or beingright.
I hope I don't find myselfthere.
I hope I can remember howimportant it is to dialogue.

Speaker 2 (01:39:22):
Yeah, and most people don't even know how to talk to
each other anymore.

Speaker 3 (01:39:27):
So you see, everything, isn't it, Peter?
It's yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:39:29):
Yeah, when you walk into the drugstore and you try
to talk to the cashier, it'slike hello.
I just said hi, how's your day?
And they're like what?
It's like my God what?

Speaker 3 (01:39:46):
what's wrong with everybody?
People are very.
I see that too.
I mean you know people are veryhyped up people are very
defensive people, oh yeah, angrypeople, and they're afraid and
it's understandable and I thinkespecially the united states.
We're sort of conditioned to bescared, especially the media.
The way it's designed is.
We're conditioned to be afraid,and I think the more afraid we
are, the more we consume thingswe don't need or something.
So there is sort of you know,sort of thing going on there.

(01:40:07):
But, as I said, with the strikesand everything I I mean, I I
had a good five to seven monthswhere we were able to get on,
and then things got really hardyeah, my first bout of COVID in
November of 2023.
Mm-hmm.
And I had another very severekind of influenza in this last

(01:40:28):
December of 2024.
Wow, and yeah, it was verystressful.
And so I think you, you know, Ithink we're almost all of us
kind of in this state of trauma.
Now Trauma's become, whichisn't healthy.
It's not healthy to get to apoint where trauma becomes
normal yeah, yeah, you're livingconstantly in that really uh

(01:40:49):
toxic environment yeah, and it's, it's kind of it's encouraged.
Now here we are in los angeleswith all that's going on, and we
just had the fires, and beforethat was the strikes, and before
that was the lockdowns and yeah, yeah, uh and I was speaking
about that with a musictherapist who's a friend of mine
, who I've known for a long time.
Her name is judith pinkerton andshe's been working with various

(01:41:11):
organizations and individualsto try to relieve trauma trauma
from individuals who have becomealmost like treating trauma
like it's sort of their, um,their only stability anymore.
It becomes really hard to uhheal from trauma when trauma

(01:41:34):
becomes sort of a way of lifeit's almost like you you need it
to survive.

Speaker 1 (01:41:38):
It's almost like it it somehow it's a myth, it's a
farce, yes, but it's true.
It becomes a crutch orsomething I absolutely agree
with you.

Speaker 3 (01:41:47):
I 100 that it's become.
That's the mirage.
Now, that's the mirage.
Yeah, the mirage is that you'vegot to constantly be like in
the state of fight flight freeze, you know oh yeah, oh yeah,
it's in order to yeah, and it'shealthy and we weren't made for
that.
Oh no, we weren't made for thatat all.

(01:42:07):
It's very terrifying.
Yeah, because I actually am aPTSD sufferer myself, so I know.
Oh yeah, we would want to liveas human beings.
It's not it's not a fulfillingway to live, and I think that
the more we create, the more wecan heal and move away from that

(01:42:29):
kind of oh exactly, yeah, no, Iagree, I use my creation to to
heal from my trauma too.

Speaker 2 (01:42:36):
So I think a lot of us artists yeah, I, it was just
something I gravitated to, likethe beat, beatles got me into
art and music.
My mom did too.
She was an artist, but it wasalways a place of escape.
I find it healthy, a healthyescape or a coping mechanism
which has led to I mean, I guessI want to end right now.

Speaker 3 (01:42:56):
I love what you're saying.
I just love the character ofwhat you're surrounded by.
I have to ask now who was yourfavorite Beatle?

Speaker 2 (01:43:04):
It was John Lennon me too yeah, and as I look at
myself in the camera, I've gotthe wrong white balance on.
Here, me, mr movie maker, andI'm I look pink I kind of like
that.

Speaker 3 (01:43:14):
I kind of am liking the pink.
Actually I actually thoughtthat you did that because you
know that's kind of that wasalways kind of like the host
creature feature thing to do oh,yeah, yeah back the lighting.
That way you know you watchmovies like attack of the killer
clowns, where they have, likethe pink and the orange and the
blue like to signify differentlyyeah it's really quite cool
actually, I think this I boughtthis mask at a place called um

(01:43:38):
immortal masks in los angeles,and this thing weighs 25 pounds.

Speaker 2 (01:43:44):
It's.
It's like foam, rubber and Idon't know.
It's really heavy.
So when I'm on it, when I putit on, I'm drenched in sweat and
I can't breathe from my nose,and so I put on this persona and
I can be somebody else and um,but you've got to check out an
immortal mass there.

Speaker 3 (01:44:01):
I immortal mass immortal.

Speaker 2 (01:44:03):
Yeah, they're great people, they.
They follow me and I'm tryingto get them to sponsor my show,
but they're oh, that would beamazing, that would be, amazing.

Speaker 3 (01:44:11):
You know.
It's funny too, because, as youwere talking about that, I was
thinking about the people I'veknown, like the assistant to
gary marshall, for example, andhe knew Rob Reiner too, and he
also had been a character on oneof the Star Trek series.

Speaker 2 (01:44:29):
Gary Marshall was.

Speaker 3 (01:44:31):
No, this gentleman, I talked about oh okay.
Who was his assistant and whoworked with Rob Reiner?
Gotcha.
He had been on one of the StarTrek series.
It might have been a Deep SpaceNine, okay, and you know, you
look at him in the photographswith the makeup on and you're
like, oh my god, with thesepeople who are in these, on
these shows yeah, you know therewas like because it wasn't just

(01:44:53):
like with the horror movie,where you know you were hired
for a certain amount of time andthen you're done with your
stint.
It's a week or it's a day, orit's five weeks or whatever it
is, but on television programsyou had to sit in those chairs
for hours oh, yeah, yeah a day,you know, just to get that
makeup on every day.
I mean, I have such atremendous respect for that.

(01:45:14):
I I don't work in that genre.
It would be interesting becauseit's so funny.
Like, walking around, I've beencalled everything from lilith
and they're referring to beam,norwood, from cheers.
There's my, my post lilith, oh,I never saw a worker called
right, the lady who runs thepost office where I go.
It calls me that and then I'vehad people in my building like
I'll be walking past and they'relike morticia and I'm like but

(01:45:37):
I'm not even trying, so.
But thanks, you know, it's like.
This is just how I look,normally do you dress in black a
lot.

Speaker 2 (01:45:44):
I do, I do, and when I was, younger, when I was in
high school.

Speaker 3 (01:45:46):
I remember after high school someone saying oh yeah,
you were always doing that goththing and you know, whitening
your skin and darkening yourhair.
And I was like that was just me.

Speaker 2 (01:45:58):
I was like no, that was just.
You weren't trying to put onweren't trying to put on.

Speaker 3 (01:46:05):
I wasn't trying to do that at all.
No, that's oh, I don't I all.
The only makeup I have on rightnow is is lipstick.

Speaker 2 (01:46:08):
That's it, this everything else, this is just me
oh, I thought you had eyeshadowon and stuff too, no, no, this
is just me now oh, wow yeah, no,this is my natural coloring
because I make, wow yeah becauseI I thought you were.
I don't know what.
You call them vintage dressersor period dressers.

Speaker 3 (01:46:25):
I do love.
I do love vintage.
I do love various it's I am.
I love the medieval period andI also love the Victorian period
and I also love that.
Wow.
Is, but I, I don't.
I love, I really love andrespect the people who do all
the cosplay stuff and just goall totally out.

(01:46:47):
I tend to try to incorporatepieces into my everyday life
because, I still want to looklike I'm a person in my life,
not doing cosplay in my everydaylife, so I try to incorporate
pieces and I do.
I'll end up looking veryforties A lot of the time.

(01:47:08):
Forties, I think especially, isthe one that people tend to
cite.

Speaker 2 (01:47:12):
Yeah, I, I there's.
I've seen you dress like that,and there's a model I worked
with in Phoenix.
Her name is Amanda Lee and shedressed like that.
24 seven.
Oh, wow.
Rezier shoes, blue dresses,makeup hair everything.
Seven oh wow, shoe's, dresses,makeup, hair everything.
She was a platinum blonde.
She was a fascinating model towork with, but I don't think I
could carry that out all thetime.

Speaker 3 (01:47:31):
Oh, all the time.
I mean, I think it was JoanCrawford who once said if you
want, you know, if you want youknow, if you want the girl next
door, go next door.
And the thing was her beliefwas you answer your fan mail at
all costs and and you alwayslook your best, you always walk
out because you have to preparefor you.
And there I I do really respectthat.

(01:47:53):
She had the longest runningcareers in hollywood and for a
reason she was.
She was very, very devoted toher fans.
She was very, very devoted tothe people who appreciated her.
I don't know if I necessarily Idon't.
I don't vibrate with the wordfan.
I kind of like friends and Ikind of like fellow people,
fellow artists.
But fandom, fandom I I've I'veexperienced it.

(01:48:17):
I have experienced fandom oneither side, like I've seen
people like around tommy or gregwith their fandom, and I've
experienced fandom myself.
And I remember one time therewas somebody and Greg was like,
wow, you have a fan.
And I was like a super fan.
I'm like he's a really nice guy, though he's a lot to take, but
he's a nice guy.
And and I'm talking aboutreferring to Greg Greg Sestero

(01:48:39):
now, who wrote the disasterartists.
I have to remember that when Iuse people's first names in my
life, I know who I mean andeverybody may not know who I'm
talking about, um, but I've,I've been, I've been very
blessed to um, to be given theopportunity to meet people.
I'm glad you reached out.
I, your wife was right, justjust show it to me.
I'm so glad you did becausewhere I first came from in my

(01:49:01):
life, before I could even talkor speak or whatever, my great
uncle, francesco Spicuzza, was apost-impressionist painter.
So what I remember first andforemost of the arts is looking
up at his paintings when I waslike two years old and thinking
I do that, like it's already inme.
You thought that at the age oftwo.

Speaker 2 (01:49:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:49:24):
Wow, you know you thought that the age of two,
yeah, wow, yeah, I used to.
I remember I can picture myselfI'm standing on the stairway of
my parents and aunt's cottageagain, because they he would do
small studies and then he woulddo the larger paintings and, uh,
one of his small studies was alandscape with snow.
I just remember seeing that andthat was the thought that I had

(01:49:45):
.
I couldn't really talk becauseI was too little little to
really.
I talked, but not a lot, but Icould think and my thought was I
, I do, I do that, like it'salready in me, and so by the
time I was four and five inkindergarten, I'd be like
drawing things with likeperspective and stuff like that,
you know.
And then I started acting whenI was like six and I wrote my

(01:50:07):
first play when I was 10.
And I really had like a lot.
I mean I had.
I had a very good education,but it wasn't like someone said
this is what you've got to do,or sat me down with formal
training and said do this.
It just came out of me verynaturally and it always has.
That's why, kind of like formaltraining kind of freaks me out
a little bit, because it's likewhat do you mean?
This is how you do this.

(01:50:28):
I've always done that.
It's like what do you mean?
Um?
Yet I do I do rely on very,very, um, very technically
intelligent people.

Speaker 2 (01:50:40):
I mean I I don't make movies alone, I don't yeah, oh
yeah, it's hard, it's almostimpossible to do, I think I've
been.

Speaker 3 (01:50:47):
I I just I keep thinking that all I can think is
gosh and I've.
One of the things that I'vereally been so happy about is
that all my sets I've had peoplesay this was like my best
experience making a movie orthis is my best experience
making a film or doing aproduction and that I feel like,
okay, I'm doing something right, then that's a good sign oh,
that's good yeah, because youwant it to be like that.

(01:51:10):
You want it to be like a family,the familial experience and
people creatively comingtogether toward a common goal.
There's nothing like that.
I can hardly wait to get to getback to that, because even when
we were shooting the teaser,which was a one-day shoot.
It was a one day you know shootwith like four to five people
and it was like gosh.
It was just so great Cause alot of the core members of the

(01:51:32):
team were back together and Ijust I can hardly wait to do the
next thing.
It's like you just get thisitch that you just have to catch
it's like oh gosh.

Speaker 2 (01:51:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:51:43):
So I'm going to find out very soon what, what is
happening with this nextmovement and, of course, if that
road isn't the road, there'sjust got to be a different road.
Yeah.
I know two billionairespersonally and I'll tell you, in
this current economy even theydon't want to move their money
right now because they'll takesuch a loss with the way the
stock market is, the way thatcertificates are and other

(01:52:06):
accounts are, it's just, it'seven moving on the ground.

Speaker 2 (01:52:09):
It's really volatile right now.
It's really bad.

Speaker 3 (01:52:12):
And assets trying to.
You know, you make a plan andthen everything changes.
The very next day after thatand it's just.
It's a very difficult economictime, difficult political time.
Oh, for everyone yeah, theseare the times, oftentimes, where
artistic times need to be veryproductive.

Speaker 2 (01:52:30):
Oh true, that's.
Very true.

Speaker 3 (01:52:33):
I really am very excited for you because I
enjoyed Angel's Flight.

Speaker 2 (01:52:39):
Oh, thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:52:40):
For everybody listening.
That is an exclusive.
We are very proud of that.
That that's an exclusive on theplatforms the platform we
devised and designed and createdover the course of an entire
year of 2022.
You know, we launched itNovember 3rd I believe it was of
2022.
And we worked on it that wholeyear and it's the first fully

(01:53:01):
woman-owned membership streamingplatform in existence.

Speaker 4 (01:53:03):
Oh wow, yeah, that's awesome, awesome, it's really
incredible, and I'm just reallyvery happy with the.

Speaker 3 (01:53:11):
You know the curating of content the way you would
curate a museum or art artgallery.
You know it's not, it's abeautiful website thank you,
thank you, I, you know, I, I, Ihad ideas and I devised certain
things.
And the execution.
Again speaking of execution,leonardo Veneziano, who is the
founder of sunken realm designcompany, he, he really helped to

(01:53:35):
implement a lot of those things.
Wow, they helped do that and soit would.
And another programmer we kindof to try to find the ways in
which we could make this trulysecure and safe for filmmakers.
Hence the name the Studio Club.
I'm just really glad that youcame on board with us.

Speaker 2 (01:53:53):
Yeah, I'm really glad you allowed me into your life,
so to speak, and got to know mea little bit, because I think
your passion and your vision isjust inspirational.
Thank you, we hope, right, weall want that, don't?
Oh yeah, and it's very hard forme to meet other artists that
are willing to like, be as openand think.

(01:54:14):
I've met one other woman.
I'm doing a mini documentary ona name, fatima taylor.
She's a painter from ohio and Itold her about you and I said
the two said she's got a Russian, uzbekistan background, but
she's very driven, very strongtype A woman who has a vision,
and I think you're similar.
I pointed her to your Instagrampage and stuff, because there's

(01:54:40):
not a lot of women.
I don't think there's enoughwomen respected in the art, in
the creative community.

Speaker 3 (01:54:46):
No, just I you know not alone.

Speaker 2 (01:54:49):
I mean it's in the business world too.

Speaker 3 (01:54:51):
But it's funny you brought that up because I I
posted this recently on facebookthat I'm kind of doing my own
little test with meta ai.
You know the meta ai oninstagram and facebook sure I'm
like, wow, I'm finding thatthere are some obscure actors or
filmmakers that are, who aremale, and I can find their

(01:55:13):
information readily through metaai.
But I'll search for like acelebrated female director or
actress and I can't find they'renot.
Meta doesn't bring up any dataand I'm like, okay, this is
definitely sexist leaning,there's something wrong well,
think about all the famousdirectors.

Speaker 2 (01:55:29):
They're all men.
Most of them are, are or youknow.
It's like that in allbusinesses seems.
It seems like it's all whitemen, like if you try to find a
black artist like all the blackartists here in cleveland are
kind of they're in their ownlittle community and I'm like
why are you guys all over hereby yourselves?
And they and I'm in the onegirl I'm friends with she's like

(01:55:50):
well, you know who else isgoing to promote our, our
culture?

Speaker 3 (01:55:55):
but I think it's it's kind of weird, well, and that's
, that's to your credit too,that you can celebrate women
directors.
One thing I have noticed,noticed is that in the social
media sphere, you know, in theinternet universe, in the
internet verse, sometimes I findthat I think sometimes there

(01:56:15):
are men who are veryuncomfortable with the idea of a
woman leading.
They're not comfortable withthat at all.

Speaker 2 (01:56:23):
I've seen, I've seen it oh, I know, I know yeah
fortunate.

Speaker 3 (01:56:26):
It's unfortunate because there are a lot of very
talented women in this business.
Uh, there's a group calledwomen in media and they, uh they
, they are specifically gearedtoward women crew in the
business and they.
They've really that's abeautiful, that's a beautiful

(01:56:47):
organization, film Fatales.
I've mentioned Cinefem,alliance of Women Directors, and
they're jam-packed.
I mean they're packed withreally talented people, people
who some people have heard of,some people haven't.
I just I think it was OrsonWelles who said you know, movies
are like a wife.
You know you should havedivorced long ago, but you love

(01:57:09):
her too much.
It's like he said it's.
You know he has these funnystories and it is.
It's really being a movie makeror filmmaker, however you want
to structure it, it's like it'sit's.
It can be a challenge in thesense that you spend a lot of
your life, spent a lot of mycreative life pursuing the means

(01:57:30):
to make motion pictures.
It's not easy to do, it can bedaunting and sometimes I mean
that's the side of me youhaven't seen yet where I'm just
like oh, yeah, oh yeah.
There are days like that, ohyeah, it's like, why am I even
doing this?
And then you just remember you,you see someone else's work,
you remember your own you're.
You remember what it was likebeing on set and you just are

(01:57:52):
like, yeah, oh, it makes it, itdoes, it does bring a worthwhile
quality to everything, aworthwhile quality to everything
.
And I, I'm excited at theprospect now because, like I, I
found your picture and I saw the, the value in it, and I wanted
to be a part of that and wewanted to release it on the

(01:58:14):
platform.
And then, um, there's anotheryou know documentary, um, an
extended documentary.
I'm looking at that I saw lastnovember and there are some
other movies and and it's like,like I said, it was like a kind
of it's an interesting curatingprocess.
I don't, I still don't knowexactly how we.
Streaming is harder and harderto monetize.
Now people are getting there.

(01:58:36):
They're just becoming used togetting their entertainment like
for free, or they think it'sfor free.
You pay for an Amazonmembership and you pay for
netflix and then you just forgetabout it and you think I'm
getting all this stuff for free?
no, you're not really but, um,but I just I, I we were going to
talk about that too a littlebit.

(01:58:57):
The distribution issues I meanliz minashel, who was at one
time the head of distribution.
Um, they created a position forher at Sundance Institute and,
uh, she did a, a survey with herpartner and published it in
Filmmaker Magazine todemonstrate how few filmmakers

(01:59:17):
even break even much less makemoney an overwhelming number,
don't even break even oh, yeah,and when?
I and when I told her, well, wewere getting, you know we were
making I said we were getting amillion, over a million viewing
minutes per month on AmazonPrime for three months straight
and we were getting a penny perviewing hour, which isn't

(01:59:37):
uncommon.
And, oh my God, we were makingjust over $200 a month.
And her jaw dropped and I saidI know, isn't that terrible?
And she was like that's likewhat some movies are making
across all platforms in threemonths.
Yeah, and she's talking about,like even Sundance film make
very prominent, well-known film,yeah yeah.

(01:59:59):
And I was like, wow, you knowwhat do you do then?
And that was like, wow, youknow what do you do then?
And that was one of.
I mean, we were already inprocess of building the platform
at that point, you know, andthere's more to come, but it's
not easy, it's not easy forfilmmakers it's gotten harder in
many ways because we don't havethe physical media as much

(02:00:20):
anymore.
Yeah.
I think one has to become verycreative, and I, the person who
probably stands as one of thegreatest businessmen, business
people, marketers around that Imean tommy.
Tommy taught me a lot of thingstoo.
Tommy taught me a lot of thingstoo, about how he marketed the

(02:00:41):
room and what he did for that,and I, I, I commend him for that
.
People don't always give himcredit would you but?

Speaker 2 (02:00:50):
would you be interested in?
We had talked about breakingthis up, maybe in the segments.
Yes, because maybe we've beenat this for two hours yeah I
know this might even be like cutin half or something in part,
yeah but I think maybe if wetalked about the distribution
process in another segment, ifyou have, time, because you're
just like so busy and stuff no,no, I'd love to, because I think

(02:01:10):
anything that helps all of usalong in this yeah, yeah

Speaker 3 (02:01:15):
I.
I recently notified anorganization and said hey, you
know, I, I really support whatyou're doing, but please don't
market yourself like you're thefirst women's platform to do
this or that.
It it's like that's us.
We did that already.
So just please, just just aslong as you're not stepping on
us or treading on us, hey, we'reall in this together, you know,
and I, I think that's a greatidea because I think there's so

(02:01:36):
much more that we can address.
Oh yeah, in another segmentthere is.
There's so much depth to all ofthis.
There are so many layers and,like we were saying, one of the
beautiful things about the artsis it isn't one direction, one
way.
People, someone, someone talkedabout that recently steven
spielberg.
I didn't even realize that hehad tried to get into usc film

(02:01:57):
school and didn't, and they toldhim we don't see a future for
you.
And he ended up like in longbeach, in in in a small uh
program in long at long beachuniversity and he goes on to
create the summer blockbuster.

Speaker 2 (02:02:09):
It's like oh yeah, I don't think they even had a
script for jaws, did they?

Speaker 3 (02:02:14):
uh, I, I think it was .
I think there were a lot ofissues.
Yeah, he's about to do somekind of introduction about that,
talking about the making ofthat.

Speaker 2 (02:02:24):
They're re-releasing it this summer.

Speaker 3 (02:02:26):
Yeah, yeah, because it's 70 1975 because yeah, yeah
what it was, the 50 year.
I don't can you believe this?
Yeah, no, that just hit me justnow between the eyes.
It's the 50 year anniversary.
And do you know that theorganization that created uh
lobby cards?
We created versions of that fornight rain, for, for example,

(02:02:46):
lobby Cards.
I think Jaws was one of thelast films.
They started in like the lateteens, early 20s, with Lobby.
Cards.
And there was an organizationresponsible for that, and then
Motion Picture Society, and Ithink Jaws was one of the last
ones 50 years ago.

Speaker 2 (02:03:01):
It's crazy and I know my wife is seven years younger
than me and I bragged to her andI said I saw this movie in the
theater when it came out and Iwas like nine years old and
she's like, oh, it's because soshe's dying to see it on the big
screen, because it's one of ourfavorite movies and we always
see something new in it.

Speaker 3 (02:03:18):
I love that you guys have that together.
That is so awesome.
And you know what?
Please thank her for me,because I'm glad she encouraged
you to reach out to me, becauseshe was awesome.

Speaker 2 (02:03:29):
Well, I'm paranoid, so I always think you know.
Number one I'm very sensitiveto how I approach a woman
because these days people don'talways know who they're dealing
with and, like I said, I'mserious.

Speaker 3 (02:03:42):
I'm too lazy to stalk anybody, I'm just well, and
again, I mean, I gotta say nowwhat some people call stalking.
I'm like, oh, you ain't seennothing, oh no I've had.

Speaker 2 (02:03:53):
I've had people stalk me on here.
I've had a couple people umwell, I'm not gonna say what
happened because there's somepeople.
I'm just ignoring what happenedand they've kind of gone away.

Speaker 3 (02:04:03):
Yeah eventually, yeah , well, yeah, it depends on the
level.
I've.
You know some of them.
If they're professionals andthey're being paid, they're not
just going to go away becausethey're not doing it for their
own emotional gratification,they're doing it for their own.

Speaker 2 (02:04:16):
Yeah, I've seen some pretty hellacious things about
me in the comments on my YouTubechannel, like why would you say
something like that?
You know you know people.

Speaker 3 (02:04:24):
It is sad.
That's the part of the internet, that's the part that you know.
We were talking about the goodsides and that is the
unfortunate side that what somepeople will do is they'll hide
behind this perceived anonymityand think I can say anything.
I can say things I would nevernormally say.
Yeah exactly, and there aren't.
There's no consequence becausethey won't know who I am, but
there is a consequence becauseyou are still you, even if no

(02:04:46):
one knows it, and and you areyou and you know about it and
other people can see it, and soI don't know.
You know if I think it wasDouglas Adams and Hitchhiker's
Guide to the Galaxy who said thelast time something like this
happened.
This, you know, this guy camealong and and said why can't we
all be you know, love each otherand be good to each other?
And he got nailed to a tree.

Speaker 2 (02:05:06):
Oh God, did he really ?
And literally got nailed to atree.

Speaker 3 (02:05:10):
Well, he was talking about that crazy carpenter named
Jesus.
You know, that was what DouglasAdams and the Hitchhiker's
Guide to the Galaxy was talkingabout.
Yeah, it was like you know thelast time something like this
happened was.
You know, this woman's tryingto stop the world from being
blown up and you're trying toappeal, trying to appeal to the
better nature of human beingsand he said the last time
something like this happened,you know, a man was nailed to a
tree for saying why can't we alljust be nice to each?

Speaker 2 (02:05:31):
other I.
I think the greatest words cameout of the la riots from the
90s was a rodney king said whycan't we just all get along?
And it's always been overlooked.
But I'm like, can't we justkind of put all this aside and,
just you know, work together,especially artists?
I always find it so hard towork with other artists,
especially musicians.
That's a whole nother story.

Speaker 3 (02:05:53):
But when ego steps in , unfortunately when you know
the best defense against the egothat the ego can't seem to
defend itself against, andthat's humor.
Oh, that's true.
Murray.
Bill Murray understood that inhis version of uh of the razor's
edge he made a remake of it,the one originally starring to

(02:06:14):
run power and and you're like anencyclopedia of just movies and
directors and quotes.

Speaker 2 (02:06:21):
My God, I mean swimming around.

Speaker 3 (02:06:23):
Yeah, this is quotes.
My God, it's all swimmingaround.
Yeah, you can't see it now.
It's covered by this lovelyveil of what people think is
goth the goth look.
But it's my natural coloring.
I just really love, I reallyhave, and I'm a nerd.
I guess I'm a movie nerd.

Speaker 2 (02:06:42):
Oh, I know it's great being a nerd and if you could
see my messy studio behind thecamera.

Speaker 3 (02:06:47):
I love your studio.
I find it the most charming.
I just find it absolutelyadorable.

Speaker 2 (02:06:52):
My moon.
The battery died.

Speaker 3 (02:06:55):
Oh no, it was glowing before folks.
I can attest to that I saw it.
I loved it.
Live on the air in the BillMurray back there.
I love the live on the air andthe Bill Murray back there, bill
.

Speaker 2 (02:07:03):
Murray.
I mentioned Bill Murray.
Yeah, I love Bill Murray and Ilove Walter Maddow and Jack
Lemmon.
I've been friends with them foryears and I've got some of my
paintings down here.

Speaker 3 (02:07:12):
Oh, look at that.
Oh yeah, I love it.
I think the charm of it is whatyou clearly put into your
environment.
It's just wonderful.
It's wonderful, it's justwonderful, it's wonderful.
It's clearly.
I don't know, maybe you don'texpress it as effusively as I do

(02:07:33):
with the same histrionics maybe.
No, I'm very conservative andquiet You're passionate about
what you are interested in andwhat you enjoy.

Speaker 2 (02:07:39):
I mean, I can see that I can be around the right
people.
I pretty much keep it to myself.
I'm very closeted about it.
I, if you met me on the street,you would never know I'm very
eccentric.
Sides to me that, oh very fewpeople know about the best ones.
Yeah, I know, but I don't.

Speaker 3 (02:07:55):
I have to put the mask on to you know, to let it
come out, or you know, it's likeyou've got this, you've got
this quiet nature, but then ohyeah, yeah, I mean I'm not
schizophrenic or anything, but Ihave.

Speaker 2 (02:08:06):
I'm always afraid.
Look, so there's a few peoplethat know the real me, uh, and
my wife's one of them and uh.
But there's some friends ofmine that you know, that know
what I'm like, and sometimes itdoesn't come up unless I've had
a few beers and I don't drinkanymore so I rarely have any
alcohol, but um you, I have,like I have a dirty martini once
a year.

(02:08:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I used to drink quite a bit andI was like I can't do this
anymore.
Um, this has been great, thishas been awesome.
Uh, I'm really so glad we'retalking and if you have ideas, I
know you're really busy Iappreciate the time We'll do it,
let's.

Speaker 3 (02:08:41):
let's not wait too long, is my thought.
Let's not let's not let thelet's not let the embers burn
out.
Okay, let's, let's ride on thisand let's maybe think about
when the next time is.
We could do this.
Gosh, I might have some reallygood news by the next time we do
this, depending.

Speaker 2 (02:09:01):
Hopefully, so yeah maybe I by the next time we do
this depending on yeah,hopefully, so Maybe I'll have a
lot more to report.
Yeah, keep me informed on that.
And I've got a medicalprocedure, so I'm going to be
kind of out of things at the endof June.

Speaker 3 (02:09:13):
The monks, and I said a special prayer for that
during my oh, I told you aboutthat didn't I.
Oh, that's right.

Speaker 2 (02:09:19):
You went to the monastery.

Speaker 3 (02:09:21):
I went to the monastery.
I was there last week and I didask for prayers for your.

Speaker 2 (02:09:28):
Oh, thank you so much .
Well, I found this.
That really means that itreally touched me so much that
you even thought of that andI've always wanted, I've always
dreamed of kind of becoming amonk to get away from the world.

Speaker 3 (02:09:41):
Monks are cool.
Did you ever play the videogame Heretic?
No, the little monk.
They're like good and bad.
Sounds like some kind of likelab mixed with God knows what
kind of Darth Vader breedingthey're doing.
Yeah.
Heretic.
And what was the Hexen?
Hexen and Heretic, I think,were the name.

Speaker 2 (02:09:58):
I don't even know what that is.

Speaker 3 (02:09:59):
Particular video games.
They were video games with likefreaky monks.
My friend who was a theologymajor.
Yeah.
Len turned me on to that.
I can't spend too much timeplaying video games, though I
respect them, but I can't playit Spend too much time on them
because I'm doing all theseother things all the time.

Speaker 2 (02:10:18):
I've got the original pong my closet and the first
Sega system.
My brother sent me those forChristmas when I was a kid.

Speaker 3 (02:10:25):
Oh yeah, I used to play Atari.
Do you remember Atari?
Yep, yep.
I remember Atari pong I played.
I can say that I played pong asa very young person.

Speaker 2 (02:10:36):
You did play it too.

Speaker 3 (02:10:37):
I did.
Yeah, I still got myself.
Yes.
My brother.
I think you're in the Gen Xcategory.
I'm pretty sure I think that'swhat I am.
Yeah, I think you're still inthe Gen X.
Gen.
Xers are just cool, we're justcool.

Speaker 2 (02:10:48):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:10:50):
Gen Xers are cool.

Speaker 2 (02:10:51):
We have a foot in the digital world and a foot in the
analog world and we've seen somuch between wars and politics,
and art and entertainment we'recartilage and entertainment
cartilage, we're cartilage.

Speaker 3 (02:11:05):
We understand the boomers, we understand where the
boomers are coming from.
I mean, they came up during theeconomic, the best economic
period of this country,post-world war ii, yeah, exactly
never has happened before orsince that you know, one country
, the united states in this case, over inherits over half the
world's wealth all at once, andyou have this incredible economy
in this incredible period inhistory, where just everything
is there for the taking and themaking, and that's the boomer

(02:11:25):
generation, and then you havethe, the millennials and the,
the gen y and the gen z and andit's like, and they've struggled
, you know, and they've, they've, they've seen some of the most
difficult economic periods, andoh yeah perpetual wars and
things like that, and we're thecartilage between the two.
We kind of understand it fromfrom both perspectives and it's
an interesting.
It's interesting to be gen x,it is, it's, I think yeah it

(02:11:47):
really is a lot of things thegen xers can really do a great
deal right now to help the world.
Actually because I I.

Speaker 2 (02:11:53):
That's a good point.
I think we could do a lotconnective tissue.

Speaker 3 (02:11:57):
We're connective tissue.
You know we were made.
We were made to, like you know,be, be understanding of all
these different points of view.
You know it's like and and andtry to communicate that somehow,
in the midst of like, the skyis falling, you know yeah, it's
on fire, but at the same timeit's like no wait, let's try to
get a perspective on this well,this is what I mean.

Speaker 2 (02:12:17):
There's so many people out there just rattling,
you know, stirring things up.
Let's, let's, step out of themuck.

Speaker 3 (02:12:24):
Well, I, like I said I was down there and I'm not,
I'm not decrying that certainthings were taking place.
That was certainly the norm andnot when I was down there.
Certainly even by Tuesday a lotof that had already had already
resolved itself, and I there.
Certainly is vandalism which Ithink is tragic because it's
costly and I really would liketo see more money go to the poor

(02:12:45):
and go to the homeless and youknow, help people and go to
education and go to roads, andyou know the things that in the
fifties we took for granted,because you know people were
paying 40% of their moneytowards taxes and things like
that at that time and I'm notjust talking about the average
person, I'm talking about eventhe wealthy was paying.
They were paying their sharetoo.
Oh, yeah, and I mean, I knowPeter Buffett, I've met him and

(02:13:08):
spoken with him, and I thinkthere are some billionaires I've
even met in person who wouldlike to see more of that.
They try and then things don'tgo where they should and we need
a lot of help.
Oh, yeah.
We need to keep making stuff.
That's what we do as artistsbecause, like you said,
otherwise it just can beoverwhelming, because it's like

(02:13:30):
that's that would be my thoughtfor everybody.
It's like make stuff, keepmaking stuff.
Make stuff because what youknow, you're.
You're not going to change theentire world, but you can make a
difference as an individual.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:13:42):
Yeah, make a start to our better, towards a better
world.

Speaker 3 (02:13:45):
Make sure, make sure to reach, make sure to recognize
the value of every person, evenpeople we don't necessarily
like or get along with, orwhatever that's sure.
That's okay too, we can stilllove them.
True.
So love them, even if we don'twant to be anywhere near them.
That's you too, stalkers them.

(02:14:09):
That's you too stalkers.
I love you, um, but I, I will,I, I it's hard.

Speaker 2 (02:14:11):
This is how we know we have to talk.
It's hard to say goodbye, youknow.
Yeah, yeah, no, I just lovethis.

Speaker 3 (02:14:13):
Where's the end point ?
It's like there's just so muchmore there there is.

Speaker 2 (02:14:16):
I'm just gonna I don't know what I'm gonna do
with it, because it's just soit's.
I love editing, but I'm gonnahave to figure out probably chop
this up into two pieces andthen do a couple of pieces and
we'll go from there yeah let'sgo from there.

Speaker 3 (02:14:29):
There'll be more to come.
I I hope I'll have some reallygood news from you soon oh, yeah
, yeah, let's hear.

Speaker 2 (02:14:35):
Let's hear some good news about your production we
need that, we need oh yeah, I'mready to.

Speaker 3 (02:14:40):
I I have that hankering.
It's like I just I'm like, oh,like, oh, my God, what more can
I do?
I just want to be back in it.
It's been a while and I want tobe back in it.

Speaker 2 (02:14:51):
Oh yeah, you're so talented and you're so
passionate.
Thank you.
I think good things.
I think, even if you don'tbecome famous or whatever,
you've already put so muchwonderful stuff out in the
universe, and what more couldyou?

Speaker 3 (02:15:07):
ask for so many people just doing what we do.
One person say, my god, you'relike my favorite celebrity
person.
I'm like for a friend, I'm likeme.
They're like, yeah, I'm like,oh, I don't think of myself that
way.
Someone else oh, you're notfamous at all.
I'm like, oh, okay, well, it'sa matter of opinion, I guess
it's okay.
Yeah, no, I I think it's betterto leave that as a very uh,

(02:15:28):
leave that where it is.

Speaker 2 (02:15:29):
It's not the prime directive it's not the prime
directive making stuff has to bethe prime director I had a
friend of mine say you don'tknow how lucky you are to be an
artist.
I always wanted to be an artistand I could, just could never
do it and I'm like i't know.
I don't know if I think ofmyself as lucky, but I guess
there's some people that nevertried.

Speaker 3 (02:15:48):
The world is lucky for artists, luckier than they
sometimes realize.
I think that when it comes tobeing an artist, it's a way of
seeing and it's a way of living.
I think it was in Raise High,the Roofbeam, carpenters and
Seymour, an introduction by JDSalinger.

Speaker 2 (02:16:04):
Yeah, it's like an encyclopedia.
This is just amazing.

Speaker 3 (02:16:12):
Someone asks the character.
Buddy Glah about his brotherSeymour, and says well, you know
, they're all debating hisnature, his character, finally
not knowing that this is hisbrother.
And he says you know, seymourwas a goddamn poet because
that's very salinger goddamnpoet.
He was a goddamn poet.
You would even even if he'dnever written a stitch of poetry
.
All you'd have to do is look atthe back of his ear and you

(02:16:36):
know he was a poet.

Speaker 2 (02:16:37):
I remember reading that shortly before I started
performing poetry wow and Iremember that very well because
you could just get that essence.
You mean, because he's so yeah,yeah, I think.

Speaker 3 (02:16:48):
I think it's so.
I think, yeah, I think it has alot to do with who you are and
how you live and how you seethings and what we were made for
.
I think, an artist a lot ofpeople think of an artist as the
stuff that we do.
You write, so you're a writer.
You paint, so you're a painter.
But, like I was describing evenas a two-year-old, there was
something inside of me who knewalready this is in me, it's who

(02:17:14):
I am, this is in me, and if it'sin there, then I think the goal
is to bring it out of thereexactly and not just for
ourselves.
I mean, that's it's for, it'sfor other people too oh, it's
wonderful and I think that'svery, I think it's, I think it's
exceptionally important to uh,it's, it's almost, it's almost a

(02:17:36):
a responsibility that whatyou're given you're not given,
what you're given, to keep it.
Yeah, I mean, you're given whatyou're given, you're not given
what you're given to keep ityeah.
You're given what you're givento give it.

Speaker 2 (02:17:48):
Yeah, to express it and to put it out there into the
universe.

Speaker 3 (02:17:51):
Yeah, I think that matters.
I think that matters the mostand the rest of it.
You know, the fame thing can beimportant when you're wanting
to command a salary or sellsomething.
Sure, but it a lot of it.
I was just talking with afriend.
It has its downsides it has its, oh yeah, it's downsides.

(02:18:12):
It has its downsides and and hedoesn't see many upsides I think
there are a few upsides as anartist, it might help you get
work, it might help you earnmore money, um, but it it had it
, definitely you can become avictim of your own image and
that's dangerous oh, yeah, yeah,it can, it can really because
you, you want that to be, youwant to continue to.

(02:18:35):
It's got to be authentic, andfor authenticity's sake, one has
to be very careful with thesecultivated images oh yeah, yeah,
it can be toxic, I think whatthis?

Speaker 2 (02:18:49):
is what we can, we just whatever we can do, we yeah
do, that's it well, this hasbeen awesome, jean, thanks so
much, and I'll leave you withthis the the little animal
behind you there, um, orwhatever that is.

Speaker 3 (02:19:03):
Yeah, that, that's the color of my one of my
granddaughters that's the colorof my sleepers when I was two
and three.
Oh, it's kind of a turquoise orteal yeah, it's not.

Speaker 2 (02:19:13):
I don't know what I said it was, but that's the
exact color.
I had a.
I had an easter bunny.

Speaker 3 (02:19:16):
That was the same color, the feet like kind of
like a white.

Speaker 2 (02:19:19):
Yes, yeah, they had like a little texture to them so
I couldn't fall or slip orwhatever you said yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:19:24):
Mine was kind of a pale yellow.
Mine was a pale yellow, reallyOkay.
By Sleeper.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:19:30):
How funny, how funny.
We remember that stuff.

Speaker 3 (02:19:33):
It's amazing how you.
I mean just go.
That's full circle, because wewere talking about when you
sneak when you sneak down towatch the movies.

Speaker 2 (02:19:39):
Oh, yeah, yeah you know something's brewing when
you're sneaking down to watchmovies that you're not even
supposed to be watching for meit was jenny carson, because my
parents always stayed up andwatched jenny carson and it was
movie, it was big chuck.
And who brilliant oh I miss hima lot.
He was, he was great awesome.

Speaker 3 (02:19:59):
He made suzanne.
So I was thinking about thatrecently.
He made suzanne summer as astar.

Speaker 2 (02:20:03):
Did he really?

Speaker 3 (02:20:04):
Oh yeah, she came to Hollywood with a book of poetry,
a book of poems of hers thatwere published, and she was on I
think it was the Paramount lotdoing an audition and possibly a
callback for like a bit role.
And he saw her in thecommissary and said what a
beautiful young woman.
And she said Well, I got this,this book of poetry, and I just

(02:20:24):
got my first call back anddidn't even know what that was
initially, had to find out whatthat meant.
And he's like you're just socharming, you should come on my
show.
And that's really that's whatgot her the gig on three's
company.
Really, yeah, johnny carson wasa star maker oh, I had no idea
that he even.

Speaker 2 (02:20:40):
I know I'm sure he had been on her show, his show,
but I had no idea that he even Iknow I'm sure he had been on
her show his show, but I had noidea he got her start.

Speaker 3 (02:20:46):
He got her started.
Wow, yep.

Speaker 2 (02:20:48):
Yep, Now did, did he?
Did she have to sleep with himto do that?

Speaker 3 (02:20:51):
Not to my knowledge, he was that kind of producer.

Speaker 2 (02:20:54):
Oh, he wasn't that kind of guy, okay.

Speaker 3 (02:21:10):
I don't think in that case that was the case.
I think that was still a timewhen you could still know.
Of course there was.
There was the story of ac lylesand, uh, yvette vickers.
But the interesting part was aclyles.
Ac lyles actually did when he,when he did casting couch.
Apparently he actually diddeliver though.
So he didn't say I'll do thisfor you and then not do it.
But there there have been allkinds of interesting tales
throughout hollywood oh yeah,that would be an interesting
topic to tackle.

(02:21:31):
I've heard all kinds of storieswell, and that links to
distribution, because thereality is the way some people
got their start, or not the waypeople would imagine oh yeah,
yeah, I've heard some real crazystories you know, I I mean I I
might have had an academy awardif I'd been willing to do
certain things by now.
It wasn't on the basis of mytalent, certainly not my writing

(02:21:53):
or acting capability, othercapabilities, I suppose, but I
wasn't willing to go therethere's some people on the big
screen.

Speaker 2 (02:22:00):
You wonder how did they get there.

Speaker 3 (02:22:02):
Men and women like they're and in some cases it's
like I I think it was judy dench, and judy dench is one of the
greatest actors of our time,quite frankly, and she has been
known to say things like um,sometimes it's just being in the
right place with all her talentwith all her talent.
She has said that too.

(02:22:23):
It's hard to know.
It's hard to know why thingshit, how they hit the target.
Oh sure, sure.
Even in cases where people dosell something out to get where
they are, but the public stillhas to accept them.
I mean, it's a strange thing,you can't really again going
full circle.
You, it's very, again goingfull circle, it's very hard to

(02:22:45):
predict the public.
It's very hard to predict thepublic.
It really is.
All the more reason why it'sbest to just keep doing what you
do, because Mozart died in anunmarked grave.
He was thrown into an unmarkedgrave.
He didn't have the money for aproper burial.
And now he's one of the mostcelebrated composers of all time
.
Yeah and now he's one of themost celebrated composers of all

(02:23:07):
time.

Speaker 2 (02:23:07):
Yeah, you know, it's like van gogh poor, van gogh
poor, vincent you know, yeah, uh, van gogh, I, he just people,
he was ahead of his time.
I guess there's all kinds ofand that'd be another topic.
I mean maybe we should juststart a podcast.
I mean, because all of thesethings are.

Speaker 3 (02:23:24):
They carry a value, yeah, but you know, it's just, I
think that I think that, in theend, um, you have to really let
things be what they are mm-hmmlet people be who they are.
Yeah, I, I really, I, I really.

Speaker 2 (02:23:43):
I I've so enjoyed this, peter oh good, yeah, it's
a great time you're, it's so funtalking with you.

Speaker 3 (02:23:48):
You, you have a great droll sense of humor.

Speaker 2 (02:23:51):
It reminds me of some of the british sense of you,
the british, oh yeah, yeah, my,I was raised on monty python and
the wit of the beatles and allthat stuff and I went.
I'll leave you with this.
I went in to get some x-raysdone a couple of weeks ago and
this, you know, x-ray tech comesout, young lady, about half my
age, and there's this big whitemachine and I go is that the
machine that goes bing?

(02:24:12):
And I don't know if you've everseen the meaning of life with
monty python.
Oh, oh yes, there's anoperating scene with john cleese
and he's like bring out themachine that goes bing, bring
out the machine that goes bing.
And it comes out and it goesbing and the girl goes what?

Speaker 3 (02:24:27):
I know they don't know.

Speaker 2 (02:24:29):
So I pull it up on my iPhone and this drives my wife
crazy.
She's like, please, don't pullit up on your iPhone, I don't
care.
This girl's looking at me likewhat are you doing?
And I'm like I'm an old man toher and I'm like here, here's
this scene.
And she's like uh-huh, and thething goes bing.
And she's like, oh, okay, great, Okay, step over there and I'll
step behind the lead wall.
And she just completely blew meoff.

Speaker 3 (02:24:51):
You know some of the young ones, though they get it.
Some of the young- ones, yeah,yeah.
Every once in a comeback.
Oh, Monty Python.
Yeah.
You know in fact I want tomention that too before I go
that in an interview TerryGilliam.

(02:25:13):
Terry Gilliam said you know, ifwe were to come up today, monty
Python, we never would havemade it it.
He said, in our day, everythingit was like a pyramid and you
had all this talent at thebottom and a few suits at the
top, and they were willing totake their time with you and
nurture you and allow you togrow.

(02:25:34):
He said that's now.
It's the opposite.
Now you have a little bit oftalent at the bottom and all the
suits at the top, and it's very, very difficult.
He's oh yeah, verse, it's almostthe inverse and I thought about
that and that was that.
He said that like close to 20years ago, so it's gone even
more wow no, so we're just.
But the good news about that isthat because it's so daunting

(02:25:56):
and because everything is hardand here's a good way to leave
things because it's so daunting,because everything is difficult
you might as well do what youlove now.

Speaker 2 (02:26:03):
Yeah, it's going to be hard.
And that's exactly what I'vedone.
I just like screw it.
I'm just going to do what Iwant.

Speaker 3 (02:26:11):
Do what you're called to do.
Yeah, everybody, everybody doit.
Everybody's got is given acalling.
Do what you're called to do.
Yeah exactly Be.
Be like Frodo.
It may not be easy, but it'llbe very, very rewarding.
I swear I can speak fromexperience.
It will be rewarding.
It won't be easy.

Speaker 2 (02:26:27):
Oh it is.
It is Awesome.
This has been great.
Thanks so much, and if you comeup with ideas, just send me a
text or an email and we'll justgo from there.

Speaker 3 (02:26:35):
Yeah, we'll probably I want to say definitely before
the summer's out and before theend of August or something.
Yeah, that sounds perfect,we'll do it and, please, I hope
everything goes well.
Oh, thank you, you brought itup.
I hope it goes well, and I knowthat those, the, those
wonderful monks on the on themountain and big sir, we're all

(02:26:56):
rooting for you, wow I justcan't, even you can't begin.

Speaker 2 (02:26:59):
I I'm too tired right now to express myself
coherently.
But, um, it touches me that youeven thought of that.
That's just amazing.
A total stranger is havingmonks chant for my well-being
and thank the monks too.

Speaker 3 (02:27:15):
Oh yeah, I don't even I.

Speaker 2 (02:27:18):
thank you, monks.

Speaker 3 (02:27:19):
Thank you, monks, and thank you, peter, for for for
you know doing this, forinviting me.

Speaker 2 (02:27:26):
Oh sure.

Speaker 3 (02:27:27):
And I've really enjoyed it.

Speaker 2 (02:27:29):
Awesome.
Thanks so much for being on.
I appreciate it.

Speaker 3 (02:27:32):
Thank you All right.

Speaker 2 (02:27:34):
Have a good night.

Speaker 3 (02:27:34):
You too.
See you soon.
Talk to you soon.

Speaker 2 (02:27:37):
All right, bye-bye, bye.

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