May 13, 2025 • 44 mins
Tell us what you thought of this episode - send us a text!
Last week I talked about "Leadership Skills Every Public Health Professional Should Develop" and mentioned two episodes from 2020 where I sat down with two amazing guests to discuss leadership.
This week, I wanted to make sure you had a chance to listen to one of these episodes - with Dr. Nadia Akseet.
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In this episode, Sujani speaks Dr. Nadia Akseer, an Epidemiologist-Biostatistician who has spent over 10 years leading research and analyses of clinical and population health datasets in the areas of reproductive, maternal, newborn, child and adolescent health, as well as nutrition in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Ethiopia and other low- and middle-income countries.
In 2018, Nadia was identified as a Canadian Women Leader in Global Health, and in March 2019, she was awarded the 2019 Emerging Public Health Leader Alumni Award from the Public Health Alumni Association of the University of Toronto.
We speak about the leadership drive Nadia possesses, when she decided she wanted to become a leader in her space, and whether you need to be in a management position to be a leader, amongst other topics. And of course, I couldn’t let her go without asking about her multiple meetings with Bill Gates, to present and collaborate on some of her work.
You’ll Learn
- The leadership drive, and what it is
- What leadership means to Nadia
- How and when Nadia decided that she wanted to become a leader in this space she was passionate about
- Whether one needs to be in a management position to be a leader (hint: absolutely not)
- Natural born leaders versus people given the right opportunities to become a leader
- How Nadia goes about seeking new opportunities (as she is someone who thrives on being challenged and stimulated)
- A glimpse into the career path she took: from Biostatician at SickKids, to Global Health Research at SickKids, then to Harvard, and now at Gates Ventures
- How her view of leadership has changed over time
- Verbal Communication and its importance in good leadership
- A leader Nadia looks up to: Dr. Zulfiqar Butta
- Reflections from her meetings with Bill Gates to present her research and work together on countries that have managed to reduce child stunting
Join The Public Health Career Club: A global membership community where public health professionals connect, learn, and support each other in building meaningful and impactful careers.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I was super nervous.
I wasn't sure.
I mean, it's Bill Gates, so Iwasn't sure.
You know, was he going to bepleased with our work?
Was he going to think that itwas garbage?
I wasn't sure what the tone wasgoing to be, or just even what
he would like as a person.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Welcome to PH Spotlight, a community for you
to build your public healthcareer with Spotlight, a
community for you to build yourpublic health career with.
Join us weekly right here, andI'll be here too.
Your host, sujani Siva, fromPHSpot.
Hey, what's up everyone?
Thank you for joining me todayon another episode of
(00:41):
PHSpotlight, a space for you andme and everyone else in public
health to share our stories andinspire each other.
My name is Sujani Siva, thehost of PH Spotlight, and I'm
here to help you build yourpublic health career.
Let's talk about leadershiptoday.
So I find leadershipfascinating from the way
(01:01):
movements are formed by a singleindividual and how that single
individual is able to inspirechange.
I think of Martin Luther KingJr and the civil rights movement
that he was a big part of, orMahatma Gandhi's non-violent
resistance to bring independenceto India, and then I also think
about some of the young leadersin today's time, like Malala
(01:23):
and Greta, who are fightingagainst education for girls and
the climate crisis.
Undoubtedly, I think we canargue that leadership is very
important in public health, andso, while planning for this
episode, I came across a numberof great articles on the topic
of leadership in public health,and I'm going to include those
links in case any of you areinterested in reading them.
(01:45):
And in these readings I wasable to find a definition of
leadership specific to publichealth and it comes from the
Core Competencies for PublicHealth in Canada document and it
reads in the field of publichealth, leadership relates to
the ability of an individual toinfluence, motivate and enable
(02:05):
others to contribute toward theeffectiveness and success of
their community and or theorganization in which they work.
It involves inspiring people tocraft and achieve a vision and
goal, and leaders providementoring, coaching and
recognition, and they alsoencourage empowerment, allowing
(02:27):
other leaders to emerge.
So I ask you this how many of usgot into public health thinking
that I'm going to be a leaderin my field of work?
I know I didn't, maybe untilrecently, despite having
reviewed the core competenciesduring my MPH program being a
leader in public health, I can'tsay that it was top of mind for
(02:50):
me.
And seeing that leadership isone of the seven essential
knowledge, skills and attitudesnecessary for the practice of
public health, I wish I had putmore thought into that.
So you know, thinking aboutthat and thinking about how we,
as public health practitioners,can ensure that leadership is a
(03:10):
skill that we constantly thinkabout building as much as we
think about building ourtechnical skills or software
skills.
I want to have conversationswith individuals who are in
public health and those I feelwe can learn from and be
inspired by, and so in thisepisode, I'm speaking with an
individual I have been followingfor some time now, all through
(03:31):
Twitter, and her name is NadiaAksir.
Dr Nadia Aksir received hermaster's and PhD in Ontario,
canada, from Brock Universityand the University of Toronto.
Nadia is an epidemiologist,biostatistician, and she spent
over 10 years leading researchand analysis of clinical and
population health datasets, andher work spans in the areas of
(03:55):
reproductive, maternal, newborn,child and adolescent health, as
well as nutrition, inAfghanistan, pakistan, ethiopia
and other low and middle-incomecountries.
And in May 2015, nadia, alongwith her mentor and PhD
supervisor, held a call toaction for women and children's
health in Afghanistan, where herwork was directly used for
(04:17):
policy and advocacy with funders, policymakers and other
influential stakeholders in thecountry.
And if you're interested inreading her work, you'll be glad
to know that her work has beenpublished in over 50
peer-reviewed papers, and themajority are in high-profile
medical journals such as theLancet, the Lancet Global Health
(04:38):
, the BMJ, jama and the Annalsof the New York Academy of
Science.
And in 2018, dr Axir wasidentified as a Canadian woman
leader in global health jointlyby the Lancet, the Government of
Canada and the Canadian Societyfor International Health, and
in March 2019, she was awardedthe 2019 Emerging Public Health
(05:00):
Leader Alumni Award from thePublic Health Alumni Association
of the University of Toronto.
So not a bad person to begintalking to about leadership in
public health.
Eh, so I sit down with Nadiaand we talk about a bunch of
things, and mainly we talk aboutthe leadership drive that she
had, and then we get into aconversation about when she
(05:22):
decided that she wanted tobecome a leader in her space,
and then I asked her whether youneed to be in a management
position to be a leader, and, ofcourse, I couldn't let her go
without asking her about hermultiple meetings with Bill
Gates yes, the Bill Gates whereshe presented and collaborated
with him on some of her work.
So, without further ado, here'smy conversation with Nadia.
(05:46):
So today I wanted to talk abouta topic that I'm very, very,
very passionate about, and it'sleadership, and I'm fascinated
with leadership, and I thinkit's especially within the field
of public health, because youand I both know that you need
really good leadership to seechange in this field.
(06:06):
And I've been thinking aboutdoing this podcast for a PhD
spot for a number of years, andwhen I thought about the
different topics, leadership wasalways at the top.
But the one problem I had was Icouldn't really think about a
specific individual that Iwanted to speak to about this
topic until I came across you,and so I don't remember exactly
(06:29):
how it came across you, but Iknow it was on Twitter and I
started following your work fora while and when I just kind of
like kept up with the thingsthat you were doing, I knew like
I needed to speak to you aboutthis and get your perspective on
it.
And then I think it was shortlyaround that same time that the
University of Toronto awardedyou with the Emerging Public
(06:49):
Health Leader Award, and thenyou were also recognized amongst
other outstanding individualsas a Canadian woman leader in
global health.
And then I remember like weshout to you on Twitter, we
started chatting a little bitmore and once I sort of got
organized with this podcast, Iknew that I really needed to get
your perspective and advicearound leadership to share with
(07:12):
our PhD spot community.
And so maybe I'll start withsomething that you mentioned in
that University of Torontofeature that they kind of wrote
up about you after that awardand it was around that
leadership drive that you talkabout.
Can we talk about that and whatthat means?
Like what do you mean when yousay leadership drive?
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Yeah Well, thank you very much for, first of all, for
bringing me on to the podcastand for following my work, of
course, and for your generouscomments.
I will try to do justice to thetopic and share whatever little
insight and wisdom that I dohave in my few years in global
health.
I think, to directly answeryour question on leadership, to
(07:55):
me, leadership is really abouthaving a vision and, in the
field of global health or publichealth, I think having a vision
for doing good.
It really frames your approachand, I think, motivation and
stamina and drive every singleday to go towards that goal that
(08:15):
you have.
And so, personally speaking, afew years ago, when I was, I had
joined my PhD in the year 2011,.
Actually, I was working on atopic which was not really of
much interest to me and Istarted to think a lot about,
you know, what is it that I wantto do?
What is really going to get meout of bed every day and make me
feel excited about working inthis space?
(08:39):
And I was in public health, butI wasn't in global health and I
thought about the challenges andyou know the issues that are
that women and children areexperiencing all over the world,
particularly in countries, lowand middle income countries, and
countries such as Afghanistan,which is my homeland, where
there's ongoing conflict andissues around corruption and
(08:59):
disparities and women andchildren dying prematurely.
When I thought about issues likethat, I felt this, this is an
area that I want to contributeto, and whatever little that I
can do through my work is goingto, you know, make me feel
fulfilled and happy, and I thinkthat having that vision, having
that goal to contribute tosomething meaningful like that
(09:20):
is what encouraged me to to toframe myself as a, you know,
initially as a strong researcher, as a researcher working
towards becoming stronger inthat area, and then, using the
skills that I have, you know, inepidemiology and biostatistics,
I realized that, hey, there isa gap in epidemiology and
biostatistics in this area, andI can position myself as a
(09:44):
leader and really try to steerrigorous methodologies and in an
effort to not only do good,great research myself, but also
to teach and help others whowant to learn more about this
area.
And so I think having the goal,working towards that goal,
that's something that you'repassionate about and it giving
(10:04):
you the drive and stamina.
I think these thingscollectively really push
leadership forward for me.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Do you think that?
Or at least when you kind oflike reflect back, is there a
specific point in time where you, when that really became clear
for you?
Because I can imagine, asyou're going through school, you
know undergrad and master's andthen your PhD you don't
necessarily at least take thetime that you need to reflect
and align everything, thinkabout a vision and think about,
(10:33):
okay, how do I position myselfas a good leader?
Did you do recall a point intime, or did this sort of
gradually happen and now you'reable to kind of voice that in a
nice concise way?
Speaker 1 (10:47):
I think it's definitely something that I
learned over time and thoughtmore about as the years
progressed.
I think the turning point, as Imentioned, was realizing for me
as a researcher what is theresearch area that I really want
to focus on.
And once I had kind of nailedthat down, that was a point
(11:08):
where I was like, okay, now Iwant to become a leader in this
space.
And so, and then, you know, asI did more and more research in
global health and Afghanistanand Pakistan and other countries
in Africa, I started tounderstand more about where the
gaps were.
There are lots of spaces inresearch that are saturated with
various types of expertise andinsights from experts, and you
(11:31):
know diverse disciplines, butthere are also areas where there
are huge gaps and you know, asI mentioned, I think, data, the
use of data for decision making,using rigorous methods to
generate evidence.
These are areas where I sawhuge gaps in the way research is
done in global health, and thegaps come from, you know, data
limitations, also from a lack oftechnical expertise,
(11:55):
international expertise, butalso expertise within countries,
in research institutes and thegovernment and NGOs, in methods
and in biostatistics, forexample.
And so when I started to learnmore about those gaps and then,
just you know, falling back onmy own set of skills and things
that I had learned in mytraining, and you know some of
(12:17):
the techniques and methods thatI was comfortable in I started
to realize that this was a placeor an area where I could
position myself as a leaderstarted to realize that this was
a place or an area where Icould position myself as a
leader.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Have you ever felt that you know to be a leader I
need to be in a senior levelposition or in a management type
position?
Like, is leadership differentfrom management?
Can you have, can you be aleader without being in a senior
level position?
Because a lot of our listenersin the community of PH Spot spot
.
They're younger professionals,sort of getting into the space
of public health.
Um, do you think they should belimited in terms of identifying
(12:54):
themselves as a leader becausethey're not in a management
position?
Speaker 1 (12:58):
absolutely not.
I mean, I think there's onething that I've learned in my
few years of working in researchand that is that everybody
plays a different role, andproject management or
operational management is onerole, which is, of course, a
leadership role, but there aremany parallel leadership roles
(13:19):
and all of them are needed toeffectively drive research or
effectively work towards yourgoal.
And so in my previousexperience, the team that I
worked on, we had, let's say, Ihad a research team of 15 people
and there were several leaderson that team.
There was myself as theresearch lead in the technical
area, so biostatistics andepidemiology.
(13:41):
We had project manager who washandling the day-to-day
management of the portfolio ofworking with HR, dealing with
contracts, staff contracts, soon.
So there is that angle of it andI think that's how we
traditionally think ofleadership as management, but I
think those two are notnecessarily one in the same.
(14:01):
So that individual had a role.
We had the principalinvestigator of the study, who
also was a leader, but policyadvocacy, funding type of leader
.
And then we also had otherleaders.
I had a project coordinator,who was an excellent leader,
that would handle the day-to-dayscheduling sorry, not
scheduling deliverables andtimelines of the staff, and each
(14:22):
one of us played a leadershiprole in our respective
portfolios.
So, I absolutely think thatthere's opportunities to be a
leader in whatever portfoliothat an individual is working in
.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
So when you take your team, for example, for the
research work that you're doing,and you have, say, a new grad
sort of coming into your team,how can they show leadership?
Or maybe you have an example ofan individual that sort of just
came right out of school butright off the bat they were
(14:56):
really showing leadership inthis field.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean I have several examples.
Over the years.
I've been really fortunate towork with great students who
often stay around and takepracticums and then eventually
become part of the team, andalso of fresh grads who've just
finished their master's and havejoined my team as their very
first job out of their master'sprogram, and there are many
(15:22):
examples of great leaders thatI've observed, but I would say
that that's absolutely possible.
One example I can give is of ayoung lady who was working in a
different field and then decidedthat she wanted to do more
public health work and wentahead to the University of
Toronto, did her master's inpublic health from there and and
(15:43):
so she joined our team, I thinkas a fresh grad, but someone
who is a bit later in theircareer, and she was also
learning and growing as everyoneelse was.
She had amazing drive.
In that she I mean severalthings, I think came to work
early, stayed long hours to tryto do self-directed learning,
(16:05):
understanding more about thework that we're doing, to do
self-directed learning,understanding more about the
work that we're doing and shewas constantly asking questions,
the right questions,thought-provoking questions and
things that really made merealize that she understands,
but not just that.
She wants to learn more and soshe was kind of exuding
(16:25):
leadership in that area, I wouldsay, by being self-driven and
motivated, and within a shorttime, within six months, she
actually moved up the team quiterapidly because of these you
know, her work ethic, her drive,her interests, her motivation.
The fact that she wanted tolearn is she put her all into
the work and the tasks that weregiven to her and she was
(16:48):
promoted within, I think, six tonine months of joining our team
, which is sort of typicallyunheard of, as in the past we
had research assistants whowould be with us for several
years before they would get apromotion.
But I think all that wasbecause of, you know, her own
drive and her own interest inmoving forward and doing great
work.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Do you think that, like maybe for yourself?
Do you think that leadership issomething that you can learn,
or do you think it's innate andit's sort of just you have it or
you don't Like?
What's your take on that?
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Yeah, I think that's a really interesting question.
Yeah, I think that's a reallyinteresting question.
Depending on when you ask me,my answer might change.
But I think if you asked me afew years ago, I would say there
are natural born leaders andwhen those individuals get
opportunities to shine in theleadership positions or
leadership opportunities,they're really able to move
(17:46):
forward and show their skills.
But now I would say that thereare natural born leaders, but
there are also people who, giventhe right opportunity, or even
if the opportunity is notnecessarily there, they can
create their opportunity ifthey're motivated and driven to
become a leader in that area.
I think it's absolutelypossible.
(18:07):
And so, you know, as I mentionedearlier, I think, finding for
an individual to find an areathat they're genuinely
passionate about, something thatkeeps them interested and
stimulated, and getting out ofbed every morning, I think those
are the types of ingredientsthat are needed to have strong
leadership drive, and anybody'scapable of it.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Yeah, I think it's interesting that you mentioned
like given the rightopportunities, but also you
yourself seeking theopportunities for yourself and
knowing what kind of environmentyou're going to thrive in and
what kind of environment isreally going to motivate you.
And before we started recording, we were both kind of chatting
about our careers and how weneeded to constantly keep
(18:49):
challenging ourselves and Ithink the path that you've taken
to constantly challengeyourself is very, very
impressive.
I don't know if you want totalk about that a little bit and
how you sort of go about yourcareer in terms of choosing the
next opportunity and whetheryou're looking for opportunities
for leadership when you areseeking out new opportunities.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Yeah, sure.
So I think, personally speaking, I really thrive on being
challenged and being stimulatedday to day in my work, and I
know that.
You know sometimes you can bedoing a task for a week or
several weeks or several monthsand it can become mundane.
But you know, outside of thattask, I think being in a role
(19:34):
where you know there's aconstant influx of new things
coming in, that'll keep youinterested and keep you
motivated.
That's the kind of area that Ialways seek for myself because I
know that's what drives myproductivity.
And so, personally speaking, Iwas working at the hospitals for
sick, area that I always seekfor myself because I know that's
what drives my productivity.
And so, personally speaking, Iwas working at the hospitals for
(19:56):
sick children for many, manyyears.
Initially I was working in arole where I was a
biostatistician consultantacross the hospital in many
different clinical departments,supporting clinicians and
scientists and their work, and Idid that for a number of years
and also provided, developed,actually, and facilitated
trainings on biostatistics andepidemiology to clinicians.
And, you know, after a fewyears in that role I realized
(20:19):
that I had learned as much as Iwas going to learn and I felt
that I had done quality workthat I was proud of, and you
know it was time for me to dosomething where I could be
challenged again, and so Istarted seeking opportunities, a
different area to work in whereI can learn something new and
(20:39):
really become innovative and,you know, stimulated and
challenged myself again, and soI switched over to working in
global health, where now I wasfaced with a different type of
beast in that you know I'm stilldoing data and numbers and you
know methods of design andthings like that, but it was a
very different type set of data.
You know dealing with data incontexts where data is typically
(21:04):
poor quality, relying largelyon survey data sets that have
their own issues, and so thatwas really interesting and
challenging for me, and I stillwork in that field now.
But every day I was learningsomething new and every day I
was innovating and problemsolving and thinking about OK,
how do I address this issue, howcan I develop a new method to
(21:26):
address this issue?
So I think working in newmethod to address, you know, x
issue, so I think working inthat space and keeping myself
constantly challenged, has beenreally important for me and has
again motivated me to become aleader in that space because I'm
innovating and I'm creating andI'm problem solving and then on
top of that, I think,publishing my results and
(21:48):
finding, so the scientificcommunity and the public health
community at large can benefitfrom it.
I think that's been really kindof stimulus as well in a way.
So the more I would innovate,the more I would publish and
kind of go back and forth, andthat's been very encouraging.
And so I think, personallyspeaking, continuing to look for
(22:08):
the next challenge that keepsme interested and stimulated has
been somewhat key.
After a number of years ofdoing that in global health now,
and having published quite abit, I realized I was at that
point again where I needed thenext challenge, and so recently
I had taken up a short researchopportunity at the Harvard
(22:30):
School of Public Health where Iworked on a different type of
data set longitudinal cohortdata set that I hadn't yet
worked on at SickKids, which wasquite interesting for me.
But after a short time Idecided to take up an
opportunity with Gates Ventures,which is the private office of
Mr Bill Gates, based in Kirkland, washington, and there I'm not
(22:53):
only doing research but alsoworking on the other side, so
the funding side where we'recommissioning research studies
to research institutions.
So I think this is a newchallenge for me, because now
I'm not on the side where I'mwriting grants and looking to
receive funds for research, butI'm on the side of commissioning
grants and then overseeing theresearch process.
(23:15):
And so it's a new andinteresting, I think, area for
me and definitely keeping meinterested and on my feet in the
present moment my feet in thepresent moment.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
I think when you talk about the different phases that
you've gone through, what'srunning in my head is like how
you've perhaps evolved as aleader in this space.
Have you noticed that foryourself?
Like, did you see yourself ordefine yourself as a certain
type of leader when you were abiostatistician, providing that
consulting service for the sickkids, and then moving into
global health, and then withHarvard and now Gates Ventures?
(23:52):
Do you define leadership thesame way in each of those roles?
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Yeah, I think that's a really interesting question
and I hadn't really sat down tothink about it until now when
you bring it up, and I wouldagree that I do think how I view
leadership has changed overtime, and also the opportunities
for leadership have alsoevolved over time.
(24:18):
So when I first started out, Iwas a junior researcher, just
fresh out of my master's, and sothe clients and individuals
that I was working with ofcourse relied on me for my
technical expertise, butunderstanding still that I was
junior and I was young, and theyunderstood that and I
(24:38):
understood that as well.
Now fast forward my role.
In the end of near the end of mytenure at SickKids, I had
worked for a number of years andpublished significantly in many
, you know, great medicaljournals, and so, sickkids, I
had worked for a number of yearsand published significantly in
many great medical journals, andso I'd actually, I would say,
more established myself in thefield as a technical expert or a
(24:59):
researcher who's quite known ornot quite known I'm never gonna
be quite known but better knownin the space than I was seven
or eight years ago.
So I think my leadership rolereally changed because I found
myself not having to activelyseek out opportunities.
After some time, theopportunities actually sought me
(25:21):
out, and so, in those roleswhen, whether it's Harvard or
other opportunities that I hadthe privilege of being involved
in, the perception from theindividuals I was working with
was that I was already a leaderin the space.
I was already somebody verywell known in the space and they
valued my contribution andinput in a different way.
(25:43):
As more say senior researcher,the way as more say senior
researcher.
And so and now working withGates Ventures.
You know I have a strongportfolio behind me and they you
know my role there is different.
They know that I bring thebiostatistics and epidemiology
technical expertise to the teamand they value that and, as I
mentioned that I'm a leader inthat space, in that team that I
(26:05):
work in, and there are severalother leaders who are leaders in
their own space.
And so, yeah, I definitely saythat the role has evolved and it
evolves with.
You know, the more experienceyou gain, the more you push
yourself beyond your limits andchallenge yourself to grow, to
learn more.
I think that's reflected inyour work and that's also
reflected in how people perceiveyou and the opportunities that
(26:26):
come towards you.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
I think, like, as you said, once you sort of
establish yourself within acertain field, you're more
discoverable and people come toyou for or with different
opportunities, or perhaps theywant you to speak on certain
topics.
How important do you see foryoung professionals to put
(26:48):
themselves out there or do moreof like self-marketing or PR
work for themselves, if they dowant to be seen as a leader in
the space that they're workingin?
Perhaps?
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Yeah, I think that's a good question.
Self-promotion and PR, if donetastefully, is always a good
thing.
I think there are many youngpeople, many researchers out
there.
You know we were talking beforewe jumped on the podcast about
the number of PhDs that graduateevery year in Canada.
(27:20):
There are many researchers andmany people in the field, many
people in the field.
So I think identifying yourselfand building an image for
yourself in the public isimportant and can be a great
catalyst for opportunities forbecoming well-known and so on.
So I do think it's great, thatbeing said, if I had to pick
(27:43):
between focusing my energy ondoing PR versus doing good
quality work.
For me, personally speaking, Ialways focused on my work,
understanding that if I do greatwork, you know, my number one
goal is to make sure that I doexcellent quality work that has
impact towards achieving thegoal that I'm working towards,
(28:04):
which is, of course, improvingthe lives of women and children
all around the world, and withthat comes, you know, there's
some natural PR that comes withthat.
That has been my personalexperience.
But, that being said, I thinkyou know creating a profile for
yourself on Twitter or you knowother social media platforms
where you bring awareness toyour work and the awesome things
(28:27):
that one is doing.
I think that's always a greatidea.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Absolutely, when you talked about some of the work
that you published, presumablylike communication.
So there's writtencommunication that plays a role
in being a good leader in thework that you're doing.
But how about like verbalcommunication?
Are you seeing that as animportant skill in being a good
(28:50):
leader?
Speaker 1 (28:52):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think public speaking andbeing confident in sharing your
work and your ideas is a hugelyimportant part of getting
yourself out there and also justbringing an awareness to who
you are and your work in general.
And you know, that being said,I think these skills develop
(29:15):
over time, and they certainlyhave.
For me, if I compare the firstpresentation I ever gave an
undergrad or in my master's tothe type of presentations I give
now, there's a world of adifference.
So, as one becomes morefamiliar in the work, the topic
that they're working in, and inhoning their skills and
comfortable in that space, Ithink public speaking and, you
(29:38):
know, talking in, likeconferences, academic
conferences, or talking to NGOsor stakeholders or funders these
conversations become a loteasier.
I will say that you know theage old saying like practice
makes perfect.
I think the more one practicesor public speaking, the easier
it becomes and the morecomfortable you feel when you're
(29:59):
up there.
And so, yeah, I do think that,beyond the written
communications and honing thewriting skills which comes with
publishing papers, I thinkpracticing public speaking is
hugely important, continuing topractice and taking up
opportunities where you'reinvited, even in a small
(30:19):
gathering, among friends maybe,or among peers or in a classroom
setting.
I think taking thoseopportunities and seizing the
moment to practice is reallyimportant.
There's, you know I can I canspeak to many experiences of my
(30:40):
own where, you know, I spoke infront of a group of funders or I
spoke in front of researchteams in funders, or I spoke in
front of research teams indifferent countries and I was
sort of just thrown into doingso and I took those lessons from
there and reflected when I wentback and I thought about, okay,
what did I do right, what did Ido wrong?
And I went ahead and Ipracticed with my peers, or
(31:01):
practice among family members orothers, to kind of get my
speech down right and to makesure that the next time I went
up I was more comfortable inparticularly in those areas
where I struggled, and that washugely important.
I noticed a big benefit that itbrought to my own fluidity in
when I was speaking.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Yeah, I think another sort of question that comes to
mind for me from someone that'spart of the community is they
had talked about how does one goabout speaking to partners and
stakeholders, especially liketopics that are difficult, where
you need to convince orcompromise on mutually
(31:42):
beneficial resolutions.
So that's like another aspectof communication where that,
where you're trying to negotiate.
Do you have any tips there?
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Yeah, I think.
I think that's an art that onelearns over time and something
that I'm continuing to learnabout and an area that I'm
growing in.
I mean, some tips that I canoffer are that I think it's
important to listen to the otherparty and listen to what their
(32:12):
needs and their desires and also, if you know you're not seeing
eye to eye, to try to probe anddig deeper and understand where
their perspective or their takeis coming from.
Ultimately, we want to haveeffective collaboration and
that's why we're there in thefirst place, and so listening to
them and understanding ishugely important.
(32:34):
And even if, in the end, youdecide to go in a direction
that's closer to what youyourself are interested in, I
think the other party feels goodabout being listened to and
feels valued that theircontribution was received and
considered.
So I think listening andunderstanding is important,
asking questions and then alsoopen, having an open dialogue.
(32:57):
You know where there arecontrasting views.
I think putting your views onthe table and providing your
take or the rationale behind it,and also listening to them.
I think having that opendialogue in a
non-confrontational andnon-defensive tone is really
important to effectivecollaboration, and I've seen
that many examples of that.
(33:18):
You know, going to settingswhere someone in the group says
something to defend their ownidea and shuts down all other
ideas automatically.
Many people around the roomwill shut down and not want to
engage, and so that doesn'treally make for a great
collaboration.
So I think it's an art, it'ssomething that one learns over
(33:38):
time, but valuing the otherperson's input and contribution
and listening as well I thinkthese are important things to
consider.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Yeah, and I think those are very important for a
good leader as well, definitely.
And I think, kind of like goingback to how we started off with
, which was kind of yourleadership drive is what we
started talking about and youkind of spoke to this a little
bit throughout.
But I'm wondering do you dothings specifically to fuel that
(34:08):
leadership drive, or is it kindof just you know something that
happens on the side, or are youconstantly actively fueling
that drive for yourself?
Speaker 1 (34:22):
I would say for me, personally speaking, the
leadership drive is somethingthat just comes naturally in the
work that I do, um and maybefortunate in, you know, in the
fact that typically when I'mbrought to the table um, there's
a general lack of um expertisein that particular team and
(34:42):
methods or epidemiology orbiostatistics, and so they're
looking to me to advise um inthat particular team and methods
or epidemiology orbiostatistics, and so they're
looking to me to advise in thatspace, and so automatically I
can assume a leadership position.
And the more I've done researchin the space and enhance my own
skills, I think I'm morecomfortable being a leader in
that space.
So I think, personally speaking, I've benefited from having
(35:06):
opportunities where I wasbrought into the leadership role
to advise and play that role.
But, that being said, I thinkseeking out opportunities or,
frequently you know, thinkingabout where you can be a leader
and innovating and positioningyourself as someone who can, you
(35:27):
know, steer the team, I thinkthat's an excellent mindset to
have and you only findopportunities.
I think opportunities sometimesfind you, but more often than
not you find opportunities whenyou seek them and so if an
individual is particularlyinterested in enhancing their
leadership skills or growing inthat area.
Definitely keeping an eye outfor those and seizing them when
(35:50):
they come around is an excellentapproach.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
I have a question for you actually, nadia, now that
you speak about leadership and,like your personal experience,
who's a leader that you look upto in this space of public
health?
Is there someone that you kindof consider, maybe not even like
a personal mentor that you goto on a regular basis, but is
there someone that you look upto that's a really good leader.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Yeah, I mean, I would definitely say my boss and my
PhD supervisor, who I workedwith at the hospital for sick
children the professors will forcar boot tap.
He will always be, you know, anamazing leader who I admire and
aspire to be like.
He's quite well known in thefield of global health,
(36:37):
particularly in maternal andchild health and nutrition, and
you know I've been fortunate towork with him over the past six
years or so, I think, eventhough he's a really busy man
and is not around often to spendone-on-one time with us, just
watching him from afar, engagingwith him in research, seeing
(36:59):
the way he presents.
I've been fortunate enough tosee him sit in funding meetings
and have a whole team of fundersagree to his proposal for a
project.
It's been incredible to witness.
I definitely would say he's anamazing leader that I've been
fortunate to observe and to workwith and someone who I
constantly think about when I'mfacing the challenge or I'm
(37:22):
thinking about the next thing.
I always think what wouldSophie Buta do?
And you know I think him.
And there are other you knowinspiring people in global
health, I would say as well, indifferent spaces, who I read
their work or I watch thempresent or watch them give a
talk and I think, wow, thisperson is just so inspirational
and the way they speak isthought provprovoking.
(37:43):
So, yeah, there are a few ofthose people that I think I
constantly come back to.
But finding a good, I think,someone, a leader like that,
who's much more senior than youor maybe not even much more
senior, but somebody who youadmire their work, their
approach I think that's really,really important and helps drive
leadership as well.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
And I think more recently, there's another great
leader that you had a chance tomeet and speak to, and I feel
like I can't let you go withoutasking you about your encounter
with Bill Gates.
Yeah absolutely and for ourlisteners, like this wasn't just
a photo op, it was a meaningfulmeeting where you're actually
speaking to him about yourresearch and you guys are, or
(38:28):
his team and your team you guyswere working together on a
project.
How did you feel meeting BillGates?
Speaker 1 (38:36):
Yeah, I've actually been fortunate enough to meet
him twice now to present myresearch, so once was in
November 2018 and then inSeptember 2019.
So we were presenting to himthis large study that we've been
doing for a number of yearswhile I was at Sick Kids,
looking at countries that havemanaged to reduce child stunting
(38:58):
dramatically over the past 15to 20 years A set of countries
we call exemplars and trying tounderstand what these exemplar
countries did right andsynthesizing the findings so
that other countries can learnfrom them.
And this is an area that MrGates is personally quite
interested in, and that's whyhis personal office had
commissioned the study.
(39:19):
And so when I met with him in2018, of course, I was super
nervous.
I went with Professor ZulfiButa, who's the PI on the
studies.
The two of us went there.
We were both.
I think this was maybe the onetime that I had seen him be a
little bit nervous usually notnervous at all, but I was super
(39:39):
nervous.
I wasn't sure I mean, it's BillGates, so I wasn't sure, you
know, was he going to be pleasedwith our work?
Was he going to think that itwas garbage?
I wasn't sure what the tone wasgoing to be, or just even what
he was like as a person you know, and such an inspirational
(40:06):
being I think to be around, andI think what really impressed me
about him was that he had hehad read our research and he
understood our research, and Ithink that's so important
because many you know seniorlevel folks, especially someone
at his level or you know high inpositions in funding agencies
or NGOs typically don't know, oryou know, get into the nitty
(40:28):
gritty of the research or thetechnical language or understand
the methods.
But Mr Gates did, and thatamazed me because I was thinking
, wow, he probably comes acrossso many different research
studies, so many differentpeople he meets all the time.
Yet he took the time to readour work and he asked us
questions, technical questionsthat were right down, you know,
(40:49):
in the weeds, about the methodsthat we used and I was very much
impressed by that.
And and they and they showedthere were questions that showed
his understanding.
And also I think his tone washe was very constructive and not
, you know, not critical for thesake of being critical.
I think he gave us constructivecritiques.
He the mandate of the agenciesthat he funds, such as the Bill
(41:26):
and Melinda Gates Foundation, isreally to improve the health
and survival of families andchildren all over the world, and
that really showed through theinteraction that we had.
You know he was frequentlybeyond the technical questions,
asking about the big picture.
So how can we emulate success?
How you success?
How can we take these results?
How can other people benefitfrom them?
So there's a combination ofquestions coming from two
(41:50):
different spaces and it was justinspiring to be around and to
witness that and also to have myresearch contribute to that.
And then the second experiencewe had was in 2019, just a few
months ago actually.
We shared an update on our workand he was very much excited.
In fact, he made a commentabout our work last year where
(42:14):
he said that, I quote, this issome of the best nutrition
research he's ever read, and soI think we were quite excited to
receive that type of feedbackfrom someone like Mr Gates, and
this year we gave him an updateand he was just as excited, as
the work is getting closer tohaving a public dissemination
(42:36):
and there's lots of interest aswell from now other donors and
agencies all over the world whowant to take our exemplars work
and try to replicate it in othercontexts and so on.
So lots of you know positivestuff coming out and having Mr
Gates support and just evenhaving him there and giving us a
thumbs up was incredible.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
It's always nice when the people that you look up to
are exactly the way that youwould like them to be, like
inspiring in person, thank you.
Thank you so much, nadia, forspending the time to share some
of those tips and some of yourexperiences and perspective on
leadership, and I am 100%confident that a lot of our
(43:18):
listeners are going to walk awaywith some very tangible things
that they can work on, with somevery tangible things that they
can work on.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
Oh, not a problem.
Thank you so much for having meand, yeah, I hope that the
audience enjoyed our talk.
You guys, if you want to reachout to me anytime, feel free to
message me on Twitter or, youknow, johnny, feel free to share
my contact information.
I'm happy to chat if anyonewants to have an offline
(43:44):
conversation.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
I hope you enjoyed that episode with Nadia on
leadership and I really hopethat if you don't already
consider yourself as a leader inyour space, that you will, and
I really hope that you will worktowards strengthening that
skill, because we need strongleaders to see change in public
health and with that.
Thank you so much for tuninginto PH Spotlight this week and
(44:07):
if you want to get any of thelinks or information mentioned
in today's episode, includingways to connect with Nadia, head
over to phspotca slash podcastand we will have everything
there for you.
And once again, thank you forthe invaluable work that you do
for this world.
I was super nervous.
I wasn't sure.
I mean, it's Bill Gates, so Iwasn't sure.
You know, was he going to bepleased with our work?
Was he going to think that itwas garbage?
I wasn't sure what the tone wasgoing to be, or just even what
he would like as a person.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Welcome to PH Spotlight, a community for you
to build your public healthcareer with Spotlight, a
community for you to build yourpublic health career with.
Join us weekly right here, andI'll be here too.
Your host, sujani Siva, fromPHSpot.
Hey, what's up everyone?
Thank you for joining me todayon another episode of
(00:41):
PHSpotlight, a space for you andme and everyone else in public
health to share our stories andinspire each other.
My name is Sujani Siva, thehost of PH Spotlight, and I'm
here to help you build yourpublic health career.
Let's talk about leadershiptoday.
So I find leadershipfascinating from the way
(01:01):
movements are formed by a singleindividual and how that single
individual is able to inspirechange.
I think of Martin Luther KingJr and the civil rights movement
that he was a big part of, orMahatma Gandhi's non-violent
resistance to bring independenceto India, and then I also think
about some of the young leadersin today's time, like Malala
(01:23):
and Greta, who are fightingagainst education for girls and
the climate crisis.
Undoubtedly, I think we canargue that leadership is very
important in public health, andso, while planning for this
episode, I came across a numberof great articles on the topic
of leadership in public health,and I'm going to include those
links in case any of you areinterested in reading them.
(01:45):
And in these readings I wasable to find a definition of
leadership specific to publichealth and it comes from the
Core Competencies for PublicHealth in Canada document and it
reads in the field of publichealth, leadership relates to
the ability of an individual toinfluence, motivate and enable
(02:05):
others to contribute toward theeffectiveness and success of
their community and or theorganization in which they work.
It involves inspiring people tocraft and achieve a vision and
goal, and leaders providementoring, coaching and
recognition, and they alsoencourage empowerment, allowing
(02:27):
other leaders to emerge.
So I ask you this how many of usgot into public health thinking
that I'm going to be a leaderin my field of work?
I know I didn't, maybe untilrecently, despite having
reviewed the core competenciesduring my MPH program being a
leader in public health, I can'tsay that it was top of mind for
(02:50):
me.
And seeing that leadership isone of the seven essential
knowledge, skills and attitudesnecessary for the practice of
public health, I wish I had putmore thought into that.
So you know, thinking aboutthat and thinking about how we,
as public health practitioners,can ensure that leadership is a
(03:10):
skill that we constantly thinkabout building as much as we
think about building ourtechnical skills or software
skills.
I want to have conversationswith individuals who are in
public health and those I feelwe can learn from and be
inspired by, and so in thisepisode, I'm speaking with an
individual I have been followingfor some time now, all through
(03:31):
Twitter, and her name is NadiaAksir.
Dr Nadia Aksir received hermaster's and PhD in Ontario,
canada, from Brock Universityand the University of Toronto.
Nadia is an epidemiologist,biostatistician, and she spent
over 10 years leading researchand analysis of clinical and
population health datasets, andher work spans in the areas of
(03:55):
reproductive, maternal, newborn,child and adolescent health, as
well as nutrition, inAfghanistan, pakistan, ethiopia
and other low and middle-incomecountries.
And in May 2015, nadia, alongwith her mentor and PhD
supervisor, held a call toaction for women and children's
health in Afghanistan, where herwork was directly used for
(04:17):
policy and advocacy with funders, policymakers and other
influential stakeholders in thecountry.
And if you're interested inreading her work, you'll be glad
to know that her work has beenpublished in over 50
peer-reviewed papers, and themajority are in high-profile
medical journals such as theLancet, the Lancet Global Health
(04:38):
, the BMJ, jama and the Annalsof the New York Academy of
Science.
And in 2018, dr Axir wasidentified as a Canadian woman
leader in global health jointlyby the Lancet, the Government of
Canada and the Canadian Societyfor International Health, and
in March 2019, she was awardedthe 2019 Emerging Public Health
(05:00):
Leader Alumni Award from thePublic Health Alumni Association
of the University of Toronto.
So not a bad person to begintalking to about leadership in
public health.
Eh, so I sit down with Nadiaand we talk about a bunch of
things, and mainly we talk aboutthe leadership drive that she
had, and then we get into aconversation about when she
(05:22):
decided that she wanted tobecome a leader in her space,
and then I asked her whether youneed to be in a management
position to be a leader, and, ofcourse, I couldn't let her go
without asking her about hermultiple meetings with Bill
Gates yes, the Bill Gates whereshe presented and collaborated
with him on some of her work.
So, without further ado, here'smy conversation with Nadia.
(05:46):
So today I wanted to talk abouta topic that I'm very, very,
very passionate about, and it'sleadership, and I'm fascinated
with leadership, and I thinkit's especially within the field
of public health, because youand I both know that you need
really good leadership to seechange in this field.
(06:06):
And I've been thinking aboutdoing this podcast for a PhD
spot for a number of years, andwhen I thought about the
different topics, leadership wasalways at the top.
But the one problem I had was Icouldn't really think about a
specific individual that Iwanted to speak to about this
topic until I came across you,and so I don't remember exactly
(06:29):
how it came across you, but Iknow it was on Twitter and I
started following your work fora while and when I just kind of
like kept up with the thingsthat you were doing, I knew like
I needed to speak to you aboutthis and get your perspective on
it.
And then I think it was shortlyaround that same time that the
University of Toronto awardedyou with the Emerging Public
(06:49):
Health Leader Award, and thenyou were also recognized amongst
other outstanding individualsas a Canadian woman leader in
global health.
And then I remember like weshout to you on Twitter, we
started chatting a little bitmore and once I sort of got
organized with this podcast, Iknew that I really needed to get
your perspective and advicearound leadership to share with
(07:12):
our PhD spot community.
And so maybe I'll start withsomething that you mentioned in
that University of Torontofeature that they kind of wrote
up about you after that awardand it was around that
leadership drive that you talkabout.
Can we talk about that and whatthat means?
Like what do you mean when yousay leadership drive?
Speaker 1 (07:34):
Yeah Well, thank you very much for, first of all, for
bringing me on to the podcastand for following my work, of
course, and for your generouscomments.
I will try to do justice to thetopic and share whatever little
insight and wisdom that I dohave in my few years in global
health.
I think, to directly answeryour question on leadership, to
(07:55):
me, leadership is really abouthaving a vision and, in the
field of global health or publichealth, I think having a vision
for doing good.
It really frames your approachand, I think, motivation and
stamina and drive every singleday to go towards that goal that
(08:15):
you have.
And so, personally speaking, afew years ago, when I was, I had
joined my PhD in the year 2011,.
Actually, I was working on atopic which was not really of
much interest to me and Istarted to think a lot about,
you know, what is it that I wantto do?
What is really going to get meout of bed every day and make me
feel excited about working inthis space?
(08:39):
And I was in public health, butI wasn't in global health and I
thought about the challenges andyou know the issues that are
that women and children areexperiencing all over the world,
particularly in countries, lowand middle income countries, and
countries such as Afghanistan,which is my homeland, where
there's ongoing conflict andissues around corruption and
(08:59):
disparities and women andchildren dying prematurely.
When I thought about issues likethat, I felt this, this is an
area that I want to contributeto, and whatever little that I
can do through my work is goingto, you know, make me feel
fulfilled and happy, and I thinkthat having that vision, having
that goal to contribute tosomething meaningful like that
(09:20):
is what encouraged me to to toframe myself as a, you know,
initially as a strong researcher, as a researcher working
towards becoming stronger inthat area, and then, using the
skills that I have, you know, inepidemiology and biostatistics,
I realized that, hey, there isa gap in epidemiology and
biostatistics in this area, andI can position myself as a
(09:44):
leader and really try to steerrigorous methodologies and in an
effort to not only do good,great research myself, but also
to teach and help others whowant to learn more about this
area.
And so I think having the goal,working towards that goal,
that's something that you'repassionate about and it giving
(10:04):
you the drive and stamina.
I think these thingscollectively really push
leadership forward for me.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Do you think that?
Or at least when you kind oflike reflect back, is there a
specific point in time where you, when that really became clear
for you?
Because I can imagine, asyou're going through school, you
know undergrad and master's andthen your PhD you don't
necessarily at least take thetime that you need to reflect
and align everything, thinkabout a vision and think about,
(10:33):
okay, how do I position myselfas a good leader?
Did you do recall a point intime, or did this sort of
gradually happen and now you'reable to kind of voice that in a
nice concise way?
Speaker 1 (10:47):
I think it's definitely something that I
learned over time and thoughtmore about as the years
progressed.
I think the turning point, as Imentioned, was realizing for me
as a researcher what is theresearch area that I really want
to focus on.
And once I had kind of nailedthat down, that was a point
(11:08):
where I was like, okay, now Iwant to become a leader in this
space.
And so, and then, you know, asI did more and more research in
global health and Afghanistanand Pakistan and other countries
in Africa, I started tounderstand more about where the
gaps were.
There are lots of spaces inresearch that are saturated with
various types of expertise andinsights from experts, and you
(11:31):
know diverse disciplines, butthere are also areas where there
are huge gaps and you know, asI mentioned, I think, data, the
use of data for decision making,using rigorous methods to
generate evidence.
These are areas where I sawhuge gaps in the way research is
done in global health, and thegaps come from, you know, data
limitations, also from a lack oftechnical expertise,
(11:55):
international expertise, butalso expertise within countries,
in research institutes and thegovernment and NGOs, in methods
and in biostatistics, forexample.
And so when I started to learnmore about those gaps and then,
just you know, falling back onmy own set of skills and things
that I had learned in mytraining, and you know some of
(12:17):
the techniques and methods thatI was comfortable in I started
to realize that this was a placeor an area where I could
position myself as a leaderstarted to realize that this was
a place or an area where Icould position myself as a
leader.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Have you ever felt that you know to be a leader I
need to be in a senior levelposition or in a management type
position?
Like, is leadership differentfrom management?
Can you have, can you be aleader without being in a senior
level position?
Because a lot of our listenersin the community of PH Spot spot
.
They're younger professionals,sort of getting into the space
of public health.
Um, do you think they should belimited in terms of identifying
(12:54):
themselves as a leader becausethey're not in a management
position?
Speaker 1 (12:58):
absolutely not.
I mean, I think there's onething that I've learned in my
few years of working in researchand that is that everybody
plays a different role, andproject management or
operational management is onerole, which is, of course, a
leadership role, but there aremany parallel leadership roles
(13:19):
and all of them are needed toeffectively drive research or
effectively work towards yourgoal.
And so in my previousexperience, the team that I
worked on, we had, let's say, Ihad a research team of 15 people
and there were several leaderson that team.
There was myself as theresearch lead in the technical
area, so biostatistics andepidemiology.
(13:41):
We had project manager who washandling the day-to-day
management of the portfolio ofworking with HR, dealing with
contracts, staff contracts, soon.
So there is that angle of it andI think that's how we
traditionally think ofleadership as management, but I
think those two are notnecessarily one in the same.
(14:01):
So that individual had a role.
We had the principalinvestigator of the study, who
also was a leader, but policyadvocacy, funding type of leader
.
And then we also had otherleaders.
I had a project coordinator,who was an excellent leader,
that would handle the day-to-dayscheduling sorry, not
scheduling deliverables andtimelines of the staff, and each
(14:22):
one of us played a leadershiprole in our respective
portfolios.
So, I absolutely think thatthere's opportunities to be a
leader in whatever portfoliothat an individual is working in
.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
So when you take your team, for example, for the
research work that you're doing,and you have, say, a new grad
sort of coming into your team,how can they show leadership?
Or maybe you have an example ofan individual that sort of just
came right out of school butright off the bat they were
(14:56):
really showing leadership inthis field.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean I have several examples.
Over the years.
I've been really fortunate towork with great students who
often stay around and takepracticums and then eventually
become part of the team, andalso of fresh grads who've just
finished their master's and havejoined my team as their very
first job out of their master'sprogram, and there are many
(15:22):
examples of great leaders thatI've observed, but I would say
that that's absolutely possible.
One example I can give is of ayoung lady who was working in a
different field and then decidedthat she wanted to do more
public health work and wentahead to the University of
Toronto, did her master's inpublic health from there and and
(15:43):
so she joined our team, I thinkas a fresh grad, but someone
who is a bit later in theircareer, and she was also
learning and growing as everyoneelse was.
She had amazing drive.
In that she I mean severalthings, I think came to work
early, stayed long hours to tryto do self-directed learning,
(16:05):
understanding more about thework that we're doing, to do
self-directed learning,understanding more about the
work that we're doing and shewas constantly asking questions,
the right questions,thought-provoking questions and
things that really made merealize that she understands,
but not just that.
She wants to learn more and soshe was kind of exuding
(16:25):
leadership in that area, I wouldsay, by being self-driven and
motivated, and within a shorttime, within six months, she
actually moved up the team quiterapidly because of these you
know, her work ethic, her drive,her interests, her motivation.
The fact that she wanted tolearn is she put her all into
the work and the tasks that weregiven to her and she was
(16:48):
promoted within, I think, six tonine months of joining our team
, which is sort of typicallyunheard of, as in the past we
had research assistants whowould be with us for several
years before they would get apromotion.
But I think all that wasbecause of, you know, her own
drive and her own interest inmoving forward and doing great
work.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Do you think that, like maybe for yourself?
Do you think that leadership issomething that you can learn,
or do you think it's innate andit's sort of just you have it or
you don't Like?
What's your take on that?
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Yeah, I think that's a really interesting question.
Yeah, I think that's a reallyinteresting question.
Depending on when you ask me,my answer might change.
But I think if you asked me afew years ago, I would say there
are natural born leaders andwhen those individuals get
opportunities to shine in theleadership positions or
leadership opportunities,they're really able to move
(17:46):
forward and show their skills.
But now I would say that thereare natural born leaders, but
there are also people who, giventhe right opportunity, or even
if the opportunity is notnecessarily there, they can
create their opportunity ifthey're motivated and driven to
become a leader in that area.
I think it's absolutelypossible.
(18:07):
And so, you know, as I mentionedearlier, I think, finding for
an individual to find an areathat they're genuinely
passionate about, something thatkeeps them interested and
stimulated, and getting out ofbed every morning, I think those
are the types of ingredientsthat are needed to have strong
leadership drive, and anybody'scapable of it.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Yeah, I think it's interesting that you mentioned
like given the rightopportunities, but also you
yourself seeking theopportunities for yourself and
knowing what kind of environmentyou're going to thrive in and
what kind of environment isreally going to motivate you.
And before we started recording, we were both kind of chatting
about our careers and how weneeded to constantly keep
(18:49):
challenging ourselves and Ithink the path that you've taken
to constantly challengeyourself is very, very
impressive.
I don't know if you want totalk about that a little bit and
how you sort of go about yourcareer in terms of choosing the
next opportunity and whetheryou're looking for opportunities
for leadership when you areseeking out new opportunities.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Yeah, sure.
So I think, personally speaking, I really thrive on being
challenged and being stimulatedday to day in my work, and I
know that.
You know sometimes you can bedoing a task for a week or
several weeks or several monthsand it can become mundane.
But you know, outside of thattask, I think being in a role
(19:34):
where you know there's aconstant influx of new things
coming in, that'll keep youinterested and keep you
motivated.
That's the kind of area that Ialways seek for myself because I
know that's what drives myproductivity.
And so, personally speaking, Iwas working at the hospitals for
sick, area that I always seekfor myself because I know that's
what drives my productivity.
And so, personally speaking, Iwas working at the hospitals for
(19:56):
sick children for many, manyyears.
Initially I was working in arole where I was a
biostatistician consultantacross the hospital in many
different clinical departments,supporting clinicians and
scientists and their work, and Idid that for a number of years
and also provided, developed,actually, and facilitated
trainings on biostatistics andepidemiology to clinicians.
And, you know, after a fewyears in that role I realized
(20:19):
that I had learned as much as Iwas going to learn and I felt
that I had done quality workthat I was proud of, and you
know it was time for me to dosomething where I could be
challenged again, and so Istarted seeking opportunities, a
different area to work in whereI can learn something new and
(20:39):
really become innovative and,you know, stimulated and
challenged myself again, and soI switched over to working in
global health, where now I wasfaced with a different type of
beast in that you know I'm stilldoing data and numbers and you
know methods of design andthings like that, but it was a
very different type set of data.
You know dealing with data incontexts where data is typically
(21:04):
poor quality, relying largelyon survey data sets that have
their own issues, and so thatwas really interesting and
challenging for me, and I stillwork in that field now.
But every day I was learningsomething new and every day I
was innovating and problemsolving and thinking about OK,
how do I address this issue, howcan I develop a new method to
(21:26):
address this issue?
So I think working in newmethod to address, you know, x
issue, so I think working inthat space and keeping myself
constantly challenged, has beenreally important for me and has
again motivated me to become aleader in that space because I'm
innovating and I'm creating andI'm problem solving and then on
top of that, I think,publishing my results and
(21:48):
finding, so the scientificcommunity and the public health
community at large can benefitfrom it.
I think that's been really kindof stimulus as well in a way.
So the more I would innovate,the more I would publish and
kind of go back and forth, andthat's been very encouraging.
And so I think, personallyspeaking, continuing to look for
(22:08):
the next challenge that keepsme interested and stimulated has
been somewhat key.
After a number of years ofdoing that in global health now,
and having published quite abit, I realized I was at that
point again where I needed thenext challenge, and so recently
I had taken up a short researchopportunity at the Harvard
(22:30):
School of Public Health where Iworked on a different type of
data set longitudinal cohortdata set that I hadn't yet
worked on at SickKids, which wasquite interesting for me.
But after a short time Idecided to take up an
opportunity with Gates Ventures,which is the private office of
Mr Bill Gates, based in Kirkland, washington, and there I'm not
(22:53):
only doing research but alsoworking on the other side, so
the funding side where we'recommissioning research studies
to research institutions.
So I think this is a newchallenge for me, because now
I'm not on the side where I'mwriting grants and looking to
receive funds for research, butI'm on the side of commissioning
grants and then overseeing theresearch process.
(23:15):
And so it's a new andinteresting, I think, area for
me and definitely keeping meinterested and on my feet in the
present moment my feet in thepresent moment.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
I think when you talk about the different phases that
you've gone through, what'srunning in my head is like how
you've perhaps evolved as aleader in this space.
Have you noticed that foryourself?
Like, did you see yourself ordefine yourself as a certain
type of leader when you were abiostatistician, providing that
consulting service for the sickkids, and then moving into
global health, and then withHarvard and now Gates Ventures?
(23:52):
Do you define leadership thesame way in each of those roles?
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Yeah, I think that's a really interesting question
and I hadn't really sat down tothink about it until now when
you bring it up, and I wouldagree that I do think how I view
leadership has changed overtime, and also the opportunities
for leadership have alsoevolved over time.
(24:18):
So when I first started out, Iwas a junior researcher, just
fresh out of my master's, and sothe clients and individuals
that I was working with ofcourse relied on me for my
technical expertise, butunderstanding still that I was
junior and I was young, and theyunderstood that and I
(24:38):
understood that as well.
Now fast forward my role.
In the end of near the end of mytenure at SickKids, I had
worked for a number of years andpublished significantly in many
, you know, great medicaljournals, and so, sickkids, I
had worked for a number of yearsand published significantly in
many great medical journals, andso I'd actually, I would say,
more established myself in thefield as a technical expert or a
(24:59):
researcher who's quite known ornot quite known I'm never gonna
be quite known but better knownin the space than I was seven
or eight years ago.
So I think my leadership rolereally changed because I found
myself not having to activelyseek out opportunities.
After some time, theopportunities actually sought me
(25:21):
out, and so, in those roleswhen, whether it's Harvard or
other opportunities that I hadthe privilege of being involved
in, the perception from theindividuals I was working with
was that I was already a leaderin the space.
I was already somebody verywell known in the space and they
valued my contribution andinput in a different way.
(25:43):
As more say senior researcher,the way as more say senior
researcher.
And so and now working withGates Ventures.
You know I have a strongportfolio behind me and they you
know my role there is different.
They know that I bring thebiostatistics and epidemiology
technical expertise to the teamand they value that and, as I
mentioned that I'm a leader inthat space, in that team that I
(26:05):
work in, and there are severalother leaders who are leaders in
their own space.
And so, yeah, I definitely saythat the role has evolved and it
evolves with.
You know, the more experienceyou gain, the more you push
yourself beyond your limits andchallenge yourself to grow, to
learn more.
I think that's reflected inyour work and that's also
reflected in how people perceiveyou and the opportunities that
(26:26):
come towards you.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
I think, like, as you said, once you sort of
establish yourself within acertain field, you're more
discoverable and people come toyou for or with different
opportunities, or perhaps theywant you to speak on certain
topics.
How important do you see foryoung professionals to put
(26:48):
themselves out there or do moreof like self-marketing or PR
work for themselves, if they dowant to be seen as a leader in
the space that they're workingin?
Perhaps?
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Yeah, I think that's a good question.
Self-promotion and PR, if donetastefully, is always a good
thing.
I think there are many youngpeople, many researchers out
there.
You know we were talking beforewe jumped on the podcast about
the number of PhDs that graduateevery year in Canada.
(27:20):
There are many researchers andmany people in the field, many
people in the field.
So I think identifying yourselfand building an image for
yourself in the public isimportant and can be a great
catalyst for opportunities forbecoming well-known and so on.
So I do think it's great, thatbeing said, if I had to pick
(27:43):
between focusing my energy ondoing PR versus doing good
quality work.
For me, personally speaking, Ialways focused on my work,
understanding that if I do greatwork, you know, my number one
goal is to make sure that I doexcellent quality work that has
impact towards achieving thegoal that I'm working towards,
(28:04):
which is, of course, improvingthe lives of women and children
all around the world, and withthat comes, you know, there's
some natural PR that comes withthat.
That has been my personalexperience.
But, that being said, I thinkyou know creating a profile for
yourself on Twitter or you knowother social media platforms
where you bring awareness toyour work and the awesome things
(28:27):
that one is doing.
I think that's always a greatidea.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Absolutely, when you talked about some of the work
that you published, presumablylike communication.
So there's writtencommunication that plays a role
in being a good leader in thework that you're doing.
But how about like verbalcommunication?
Are you seeing that as animportant skill in being a good
(28:50):
leader?
Speaker 1 (28:52):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think public speaking andbeing confident in sharing your
work and your ideas is a hugelyimportant part of getting
yourself out there and also justbringing an awareness to who
you are and your work in general.
And you know, that being said,I think these skills develop
(29:15):
over time, and they certainlyhave.
For me, if I compare the firstpresentation I ever gave an
undergrad or in my master's tothe type of presentations I give
now, there's a world of adifference.
So, as one becomes morefamiliar in the work, the topic
that they're working in, and inhoning their skills and
comfortable in that space, Ithink public speaking and, you
(29:38):
know, talking in, likeconferences, academic
conferences, or talking to NGOsor stakeholders or funders these
conversations become a loteasier.
I will say that you know theage old saying like practice
makes perfect.
I think the more one practicesor public speaking, the easier
it becomes and the morecomfortable you feel when you're
(29:59):
up there.
And so, yeah, I do think that,beyond the written
communications and honing thewriting skills which comes with
publishing papers, I thinkpracticing public speaking is
hugely important, continuing topractice and taking up
opportunities where you'reinvited, even in a small
(30:19):
gathering, among friends maybe,or among peers or in a classroom
setting.
I think taking thoseopportunities and seizing the
moment to practice is reallyimportant.
There's, you know I can I canspeak to many experiences of my
(30:40):
own where, you know, I spoke infront of a group of funders or I
spoke in front of researchteams in funders, or I spoke in
front of research teams indifferent countries and I was
sort of just thrown into doingso and I took those lessons from
there and reflected when I wentback and I thought about, okay,
what did I do right, what did Ido wrong?
And I went ahead and Ipracticed with my peers, or
(31:01):
practice among family members orothers, to kind of get my
speech down right and to makesure that the next time I went
up I was more comfortable inparticularly in those areas
where I struggled, and that washugely important.
I noticed a big benefit that itbrought to my own fluidity in
when I was speaking.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Yeah, I think another sort of question that comes to
mind for me from someone that'spart of the community is they
had talked about how does one goabout speaking to partners and
stakeholders, especially liketopics that are difficult, where
you need to convince orcompromise on mutually
(31:42):
beneficial resolutions.
So that's like another aspectof communication where that,
where you're trying to negotiate.
Do you have any tips there?
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Yeah, I think.
I think that's an art that onelearns over time and something
that I'm continuing to learnabout and an area that I'm
growing in.
I mean, some tips that I canoffer are that I think it's
important to listen to the otherparty and listen to what their
(32:12):
needs and their desires and also, if you know you're not seeing
eye to eye, to try to probe anddig deeper and understand where
their perspective or their takeis coming from.
Ultimately, we want to haveeffective collaboration and
that's why we're there in thefirst place, and so listening to
them and understanding ishugely important.
(32:34):
And even if, in the end, youdecide to go in a direction
that's closer to what youyourself are interested in, I
think the other party feels goodabout being listened to and
feels valued that theircontribution was received and
considered.
So I think listening andunderstanding is important,
asking questions and then alsoopen, having an open dialogue.
(32:57):
You know where there arecontrasting views.
I think putting your views onthe table and providing your
take or the rationale behind it,and also listening to them.
I think having that opendialogue in a
non-confrontational andnon-defensive tone is really
important to effectivecollaboration, and I've seen
that many examples of that.
(33:18):
You know, going to settingswhere someone in the group says
something to defend their ownidea and shuts down all other
ideas automatically.
Many people around the roomwill shut down and not want to
engage, and so that doesn'treally make for a great
collaboration.
So I think it's an art, it'ssomething that one learns over
(33:38):
time, but valuing the otherperson's input and contribution
and listening as well I thinkthese are important things to
consider.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Yeah, and I think those are very important for a
good leader as well, definitely.
And I think, kind of like goingback to how we started off with
, which was kind of yourleadership drive is what we
started talking about and youkind of spoke to this a little
bit throughout.
But I'm wondering do you dothings specifically to fuel that
(34:08):
leadership drive, or is it kindof just you know something that
happens on the side, or are youconstantly actively fueling
that drive for yourself?
Speaker 1 (34:22):
I would say for me, personally speaking, the
leadership drive is somethingthat just comes naturally in the
work that I do, um and maybefortunate in, you know, in the
fact that typically when I'mbrought to the table um, there's
a general lack of um expertisein that particular team and
(34:42):
methods or epidemiology orbiostatistics, and so they're
looking to me to advise um inthat particular team and methods
or epidemiology orbiostatistics, and so they're
looking to me to advise in thatspace, and so automatically I
can assume a leadership position.
And the more I've done researchin the space and enhance my own
skills, I think I'm morecomfortable being a leader in
that space.
So I think, personally speaking, I've benefited from having
(35:06):
opportunities where I wasbrought into the leadership role
to advise and play that role.
But, that being said, I thinkseeking out opportunities or,
frequently you know, thinkingabout where you can be a leader
and innovating and positioningyourself as someone who can, you
(35:27):
know, steer the team, I thinkthat's an excellent mindset to
have and you only findopportunities.
I think opportunities sometimesfind you, but more often than
not you find opportunities whenyou seek them and so if an
individual is particularlyinterested in enhancing their
leadership skills or growing inthat area.
Definitely keeping an eye outfor those and seizing them when
(35:50):
they come around is an excellentapproach.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
I have a question for you actually, nadia, now that
you speak about leadership and,like your personal experience,
who's a leader that you look upto in this space of public
health?
Is there someone that you kindof consider, maybe not even like
a personal mentor that you goto on a regular basis, but is
there someone that you look upto that's a really good leader.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Yeah, I mean, I would definitely say my boss and my
PhD supervisor, who I workedwith at the hospital for sick
children the professors will forcar boot tap.
He will always be, you know, anamazing leader who I admire and
aspire to be like.
He's quite well known in thefield of global health,
(36:37):
particularly in maternal andchild health and nutrition, and
you know I've been fortunate towork with him over the past six
years or so, I think, eventhough he's a really busy man
and is not around often to spendone-on-one time with us, just
watching him from afar, engagingwith him in research, seeing
(36:59):
the way he presents.
I've been fortunate enough tosee him sit in funding meetings
and have a whole team of fundersagree to his proposal for a
project.
It's been incredible to witness.
I definitely would say he's anamazing leader that I've been
fortunate to observe and to workwith and someone who I
constantly think about when I'mfacing the challenge or I'm
(37:22):
thinking about the next thing.
I always think what wouldSophie Buta do?
And you know I think him.
And there are other you knowinspiring people in global
health, I would say as well, indifferent spaces, who I read
their work or I watch thempresent or watch them give a
talk and I think, wow, thisperson is just so inspirational
and the way they speak isthought provprovoking.
(37:43):
So, yeah, there are a few ofthose people that I think I
constantly come back to.
But finding a good, I think,someone, a leader like that,
who's much more senior than youor maybe not even much more
senior, but somebody who youadmire their work, their
approach I think that's really,really important and helps drive
leadership as well.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
And I think more recently, there's another great
leader that you had a chance tomeet and speak to, and I feel
like I can't let you go withoutasking you about your encounter
with Bill Gates.
Yeah absolutely and for ourlisteners, like this wasn't just
a photo op, it was a meaningfulmeeting where you're actually
speaking to him about yourresearch and you guys are, or
(38:28):
his team and your team you guyswere working together on a
project.
How did you feel meeting BillGates?
Speaker 1 (38:36):
Yeah, I've actually been fortunate enough to meet
him twice now to present myresearch, so once was in
November 2018 and then inSeptember 2019.
So we were presenting to himthis large study that we've been
doing for a number of yearswhile I was at Sick Kids,
looking at countries that havemanaged to reduce child stunting
(38:58):
dramatically over the past 15to 20 years A set of countries
we call exemplars and trying tounderstand what these exemplar
countries did right andsynthesizing the findings so
that other countries can learnfrom them.
And this is an area that MrGates is personally quite
interested in, and that's whyhis personal office had
commissioned the study.
(39:19):
And so when I met with him in2018, of course, I was super
nervous.
I went with Professor ZulfiButa, who's the PI on the
studies.
The two of us went there.
We were both.
I think this was maybe the onetime that I had seen him be a
little bit nervous usually notnervous at all, but I was super
(39:39):
nervous.
I wasn't sure I mean, it's BillGates, so I wasn't sure, you
know, was he going to be pleasedwith our work?
Was he going to think that itwas garbage?
I wasn't sure what the tone wasgoing to be, or just even what
he was like as a person you know, and such an inspirational
(40:06):
being I think to be around, andI think what really impressed me
about him was that he had hehad read our research and he
understood our research, and Ithink that's so important
because many you know seniorlevel folks, especially someone
at his level or you know high inpositions in funding agencies
or NGOs typically don't know, oryou know, get into the nitty
(40:28):
gritty of the research or thetechnical language or understand
the methods.
But Mr Gates did, and thatamazed me because I was thinking
, wow, he probably comes acrossso many different research
studies, so many differentpeople he meets all the time.
Yet he took the time to readour work and he asked us
questions, technical questionsthat were right down, you know,
(40:49):
in the weeds, about the methodsthat we used and I was very much
impressed by that.
And and they and they showedthere were questions that showed
his understanding.
And also I think his tone washe was very constructive and not
, you know, not critical for thesake of being critical.
I think he gave us constructivecritiques.
He the mandate of the agenciesthat he funds, such as the Bill
(41:26):
and Melinda Gates Foundation, isreally to improve the health
and survival of families andchildren all over the world, and
that really showed through theinteraction that we had.
You know he was frequentlybeyond the technical questions,
asking about the big picture.
So how can we emulate success?
How you success?
How can we take these results?
How can other people benefitfrom them?
So there's a combination ofquestions coming from two
(41:50):
different spaces and it was justinspiring to be around and to
witness that and also to have myresearch contribute to that.
And then the second experiencewe had was in 2019, just a few
months ago actually.
We shared an update on our workand he was very much excited.
In fact, he made a commentabout our work last year where
(42:14):
he said that, I quote, this issome of the best nutrition
research he's ever read, and soI think we were quite excited to
receive that type of feedbackfrom someone like Mr Gates, and
this year we gave him an updateand he was just as excited, as
the work is getting closer tohaving a public dissemination
(42:36):
and there's lots of interest aswell from now other donors and
agencies all over the world whowant to take our exemplars work
and try to replicate it in othercontexts and so on.
So lots of you know positivestuff coming out and having Mr
Gates support and just evenhaving him there and giving us a
thumbs up was incredible.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
It's always nice when the people that you look up to
are exactly the way that youwould like them to be, like
inspiring in person, thank you.
Thank you so much, nadia, forspending the time to share some
of those tips and some of yourexperiences and perspective on
leadership, and I am 100%confident that a lot of our
(43:18):
listeners are going to walk awaywith some very tangible things
that they can work on, with somevery tangible things that they
can work on.
Speaker 1 (43:24):
Oh, not a problem.
Thank you so much for having meand, yeah, I hope that the
audience enjoyed our talk.
You guys, if you want to reachout to me anytime, feel free to
message me on Twitter or, youknow, johnny, feel free to share
my contact information.
I'm happy to chat if anyonewants to have an offline
(43:44):
conversation.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
I hope you enjoyed that episode with Nadia on
leadership and I really hopethat if you don't already
consider yourself as a leader inyour space, that you will, and
I really hope that you will worktowards strengthening that
skill, because we need strongleaders to see change in public
health and with that.
Thank you so much for tuninginto PH Spotlight this week and
(44:07):
if you want to get any of thelinks or information mentioned
in today's episode, includingways to connect with Nadia, head
over to phspotca slash podcastand we will have everything
there for you.
And once again, thank you forthe invaluable work that you do
for this world.
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