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Have you ever found yourself at a career crossroads, contemplating a leap into uncharted territory? Join us as we navigate the captivating realm of public health careers with Dr. Vinu Ilakkuvan. She shares her remarkable shift from engineering to public health, shedding light on the serendipitous ways that one's professional journey can unfold. We discuss the strategic reframing of skills that allow for such shifts, and the interplay between work experience and academic learning. Our dialogue unveils the empowering process of aligning personal values with professional ambitions, leading to a career that's not just a job but a calling.
You’ll Learn
- Vinu’s experience transitioning from biomedical engineering to public health early in her career vs. pivoting from one role to another later on
- Vinu’s various job roles and what she learned from each one
- How Vinu’s passion for working in an interconnected public health environment and bridging policy and ground work led to the creation of PoP Health
- What PoP Health is and how they improve public health by collaborating with coalitions to facilitate community access
- Reflecting on your own career experiences and gaining confidence to form your own story and work towards your dream job
Today’s Guest
Vinu Ilakkuvan, DrPH, MSPH, is passionate about strengthening community-driven efforts to address the upstream, root drivers of health (pophealthllc.com/tedx). She is Founder and Principal Consultant of PoP Health, a public health consulting practice that partners with community coalitions and collaboratives to transform health in their communities through policy and systems change (pophealthllc.com). PoP Health helps coalitions engage in community collaboration, action planning, participatory evaluation, and effective storytelling. PoP Health also issues a biweekly newsletter, Community Threads, with tools and strategies for anyone seeking to improve community health (pophealthllc.com/newsletter).
Vinu received her DrPH in Health Behavior from the George Washington University Milken Institute School of Public Health as a Milken Scholar, a Master’s degree with a concentration in Health Communication from the Harvard School of Public Health, and Bachelor’s degrees in Biomedical Engineering and Economics from the University of Virginia. She currently serves as a Professorial Lecturer at George Washington University. Vinu began her public health career coordinating the Virginia Department of Health's bullying and youth violence prevention program and later, evaluating the national truth antismoking campaign and managing policy and communications projects at Trust for America’s Health.
Resources
- Connect with Vinu on LinkedIn
- Learn more about the Truth Initiative
- Learn more about Trust for America's Health
- Learn more about PoP Health
Join The Public Health Career Club: A global membership community where public health professionals connect, learn, and support each other in building meaningful and impactful careers.
Go from feeling confused, alone and overwhelmed, to feeling confident and in control of your life and career!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Think of your careers as like pearls on a necklace
that you're collecting, asopposed to something like a
ladder right, and I've alwaysloved that, because it's exactly
what you're saying.
Every experience is valuable,and just because you're pivoting
and going to do something elsedoesn't negate your experience.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Welcome to PH Spotlight, a community for you
to build your public healthcareer with.
Join us weekly right here andI'll be here too your host,
sujani Siva from PH Spot.
Hi, vinu, and welcome backactually to the podcast, because
I think our listeners will haveheard the episode you me and
(00:49):
Leah recorded from just likeself-employment in public health
, and I really wanted to hearabout your journey.
And here we are, the two of uschatting about that.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Wonderful.
Well, thank you so much forhaving me and, yes, happy to be
here, awesome and.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I think the other piece that you and I mutually
felt excited about is that we'reboth, you know, south Asian and
women in public health, whichwas also, you know, really nice
for me to just connect withsomebody who has very similar
roots to me, so this will be afun combo, for sure.
Okay, so one of my favoritequestions, and one that often
(01:26):
kick starts this conversation,is how people discovered public
health and that this fieldexists, and I saw, when I was
preparing for this, that youactually started off your
studies in like engineering.
How does one go from wanting topursue engineering to then like
discovering public health?
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Everything was accidental in my interest in
engineering as well as in publichealth.
I know it always cracks me up.
I feel like at some point inthe future I feel like you'll
start getting different answersto this question, in the sense
of you know it cracks me up,like especially after COVID you
know, people know that publichealth exists and is a field and
(02:07):
have like some sense of what itis.
But when I was in college Iquite literally did not know
that public health was a fieldor what it was.
Even my interest in engineeringdidn't really start out as an
interest in engineering per se.
I was interested.
I was actually interested inboth journalism and biology.
It was actually like which oneof these do I want to do in
(02:27):
college and ultimately sort of alittle bit of practicality
winning out and being like, well, writing and journalism I can
always do.
You know, on the side, maybelike major wise, I'll go biology
route.
And just you know, familyfriend randomly was like, oh, if
you're going to do biology,like think about doing
biomedical engineering, becausethe classes will be a lot
smaller.
(02:48):
And that was literally theextent of my rationale.
I was like, oh, that soundsgreat, I'll do that.
And then sort of found myselfin engineering school with
everything that that entails.
But I actually lovedengineering academically.
I've always, you know, likedmath and numbers and whatever.
So it was.
It was a very good fit andinteresting academically.
(03:09):
But I quickly realized, youknow, I was in biomedical
engineering and I'm like, okay,I don't really want to be in a
lab pipetting things all day, Idon't really want to be in front
of a computer modeling thingslike.
And I was quickly running outof.
I was like there are no careeroptions here that actually
appealed to me.
So what do I do?
And was trying to figure out.
(03:30):
I was still at that point, youknow, was writing for the
college newspaper, so still sortof had a foot in like the
journalism, writing,communications arena.
I was giving tours of theuniversity.
I've always really enjoyedpublic speaking, so I was kind
of trying to figure out how do Imerge these things that I like
doing with my interest in healthand medicine.
I was also starting to get moreexposed to and interested in
(03:52):
sort of like broader societalimplications of, you know, of
technology and engineering isthe way it was introduced to us
in engineering school.
But yeah, I did the engineeringschool at the University of
Virginia, where I went, had ascience, technology and policy
internship program and so I didthat.
Internship was in DC for thesummer and it really just kind
(04:17):
of became clear that this waskind of the direction that spoke
to my combination of interests.
And then I randomly bumped intomy resident advisor on grounds
one day and she was applying tombh programs and it was like a
light bulb and I was like publichealth, like that sounds like
(04:37):
it could be the mix of things.
And then I I you know googled itand was like, okay, like this
seems like the right mix ofthings that I'm interested in,
and so then that is how I foundpublic health and have been
there ever since.
So I actually started in publichealth, really interested kind
of specifically in healthcommunications because I was
(04:57):
sort of coming at it from that,you know communications and
health interest.
But I feel like really just dayone of my masters in public
health program we had like asocial epidemiology course our
first year and just kind ofgetting oriented to the idea of
these upstream drivers of healthand I feel like I was
(05:18):
immediately sold and immediatelyinterested in much more broadly
interested in public health asa field yeah, it's interesting
because I I'm kind of likereflecting back to the time when
I got introduced to publichealth and it's very similar.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
You kind of know the areas that you're interested in
and like what you want to do,but you can't figure out that
word.
And then when somebody startstelling you about, like public
health and for me it wasepidemiology and then you know,
oh my god, that's what I want todo and you almost know, because
your interests are now likematching up with this word that
somebody just has introduced toyou, and then like yeah, you
(05:55):
jump on the computer and youstart reading.
You're like, oh my god, this iswhat I've been looking for.
Okay, so you, you discoverpublic health while you're still
like pursuing your bachelor's.
Is that right?
yeah, yeah okay, and then?
What are some of your nextsteps from there?
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Yeah, so I continued.
I mean again, I was enjoyingthe biomedical engineering
program academically so I neverreally considered sort of
switching majors or anything atthe undergrad level Also,
certainly at the time at theundergrad level like there was
not a public health degree to behad anyway.
But I continued in biomedicalengineering, but every summer.
(06:32):
So it started with the scienceand technology policy internship
program and then the summerafter that our university had
small sort of undergraduateresearch grants.
So I applied for a researchgrant that was public health
focused, actually looking atnutrition and related behaviors
amongst those with diabetes,actually in South India, in
(06:53):
Thumbelnato where my family isfrom, and it took the
opportunity to do some workthere one summer and then summer
after that does some work againpolicy related, in the
governor's office in Virginia.
So sort of used sort of thesummers to kind of explore more
of this public health interestarea.
(07:16):
And then I did apply for amaster's program straight out of
undergrad and went directlyinto a master's program for
public health, which inretrospect I don't know that
that is what I would do, but atthe time it felt like the way to
get into the field.
In retrospect I later did mydoctoral degree.
(07:39):
I got a DRPH in public healthpart time while I was still
working and also after I hadworked for a few years, and at
that point I feel like there wasso much more I could put in
context from what we werelearning in class.
So again, kind of looking inretrospect, sometimes I'm like
if I knew everything I knew nowI probably would have worked for
(07:59):
a bit.
But at the time it seems likethe right thing and I do think
especially for me because myundergraduate degree was not in
anything related to publichealth.
I feel like those two years inthe master's program really
shaped my understanding of whatpublic health is and what areas
(08:19):
I was most interested in.
So, it was very formative inthat sense, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Something that we both said we'll chat about in
today's convo was this idea oflike pivoting, and sometimes I
guess you think about the sunkcost, if you will, for lack of a
better word, and you think letme just go through with it,
especially you having investedfour years into a biomedical
(08:45):
engineering degree.
That must have been a, or I'massuming it must have been a
very difficult decision to say,okay, I'm not going to go work,
I'm going to go and pursue adifferent field where I know my
interests and kind of everythingI want to do is align to this
degree.
Can you talk a bit about whathappened with you during that
time and whether that was easyfor you or not?
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Yeah, I mean I don't know if I would say it was easy
necessarily, but I will say likeI don't think I had any doubts
because it was very clear to meagain, like in terms of what I
liked doing, it was very clearthat none of the traditional
sort of biomedical engineeringpaths were going to be what I
(09:27):
enjoyed doing.
And so I feel like in thatsense again, finding public
health is probably one of thefew like light bulb moments, and
I feel like people always talkabout light bulb moments and I
feel like there sometimes itfeels like that doesn't really
happen in real life.
But I feel like this was one ofthe few in my life that really
did feel like a light bulbmoment, like oh, like this is
(09:47):
exactly what you were saying,this is what I've been looking
for and I just didn't know thatthis existed or this is what it
was called, and in some ways Ifeel I mean I agree like any
pivot is hard, in the sense ofyou feel like you've put in time
and effort and energy and youknow biomedical engineering
degree was hard, like I alwayssay, like I'm kind of glad I did
(10:08):
that academically becausenothing that came afterwards
felt hard.
But you know, after all of that, you know it does take some
energy and courage and faith tolike decide to make a pivot.
But I find it's actually Ithink people struggle a lot more
with pivoting further intotheir career.
I feel like when you'rewhatever you've done some
(10:31):
academic work or early in yourcareer, I think it's a little
easier.
I think I've seen a lot offriends and colleagues struggle
with the idea of pivoting whenyou're a little further into
your career.
And I mean this happened to me.
So for several years I workedon evaluation of an anti smoking
campaign and like the tobaccocontrol and prevention world is
(10:54):
a very specifically focused kindof arena.
You know you're interactingwith a lot of folks who are in
the same space, going toconferences with a lot of folks
in the same space.
No-transcript For me.
I hit a point where I was like Idon't want to be siloed,
working on a specific issue.
The whole appeal of publichealth to me was that everything
(11:16):
was interconnected.
I was intentional about I wantto seek a job that is not siloed
in this topical way and wentabout that very specifically.
I think I've seen othercolleagues feel similarly but
feel like but I have all ofthese years of work experience
(11:39):
in this space, this is my entirenetwork Like how could I
possibly pivot to something else?
I think that what I tried to do, and what I always encourage
other people to do and thinkabout, is, at the end of the day
, I feel like the thing thatmatters is what is it that you
most want to do?
All of your experience andskills can be framed in a way
(12:05):
that is connected to that thing.
Of course, there are some pivots.
If you have to be a medicaldoctor, there are certain things
you have to do.
That's just the nature of thegame.
But for a lot of us in publichealth, depending on what it is
that you want to do, the padsare not so defined.
So there's actually a lot ofopportunity to pivot if that's
(12:26):
something you want to do.
So I think it's just a matterof thinking about how do I take
my experiences and skills andframe it in a way that it
becomes clear what translates,what can even be a value add
when you have a different lensand a different perspective and
you're bringing it to somethingnew that can be really valuable.
(12:47):
So I just think pivoting is alot more possible than people
think it is.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Yeah, and I think there's a mindset shift that has
to occur at that point, becauseif we think that this
experience would have beenwasted if I move into something
else, I think your ability tomake that pivot becomes harder.
But if you shift that to thinkno experience is bad experience,
(13:14):
every experience I've hadbuilds upon itself.
And how can I use that in thisnew path I'm about to take?
Speaker 1 (13:23):
It's such a good point, and one of my mentors
once described this as likethink of your careers as like
pearls on a necklace that you'recollecting, as opposed to
something like a ladder, andI've always loved that because
it's exactly what you're saying,like every experience is
(13:44):
valuable and just because you'repivoting and going to do
something else doesn't negateyour experience.
We take different things and Ithink about this all the time
with engineering in the sense oflike I haven't used a
differential equation since Iwas in college, so like one
could look at that and be like,wow, what wasted time and energy
(14:06):
that was never used again.
Right.
But I feel like every problemwe solve, every experience we
have, it is training your brainto think.
In certain ways, it is givingyou a certain lens on problems.
For me, engineering inparticular is it's about systems
and that's what public healthis about too, and I feel like
(14:28):
that connection in some ways isabstract in the sense of like my
day to day work is not thethings I was doing in
engineering school, but I feellike that sort of way of
thinking in lens is like verydeep rooted in me because of
sort of that engineeringtraining and then building on
that with public health.
So, yeah, I really like theidea of sort of like collecting
(14:52):
pearls on a necklace, like theexperiences might not all be
like directly building on top ofeach other, but they are all
valuable and adding up to youknow, a stump that's greater
than it was.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Once in engineering, always an engineer, I guess.
Yeah, I guess that I'm curious,like do you have a very
intentional reflection period inyour day or your like week?
You seem to have periods whenyou put together the different
pieces of your journey and I'malways curious to learn from
(15:27):
everyone's kind of likereflection methodologies.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Yeah, that's such a good question.
I mean not in a highlyconsistent or systematic way I'm
not yet a journal or or youknow anything like that but I
like stories in all shapes andforms.
I feel like that.
You know, I was a dancer, awriter, tour guide, like all of
(15:52):
these things that wereultimately about telling a story
, and so I feel like I'm alwaystrying to synthesize information
into a story, and that appliesto, like, my own journey in life
too.
So I feel like I do a lot, justsort of innately, in the way I
think and process things.
(16:13):
I do a lot of that kind of likereflection and, yeah, just
storytelling.
So I feel like that is wheresome of that comes from.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Anyway, I like that.
Okay, so you go on to get anMPH degree.
Where did you think you wouldbe working when you're like
pursuing your MPH degree, and isthat how it all panned out?
Speaker 1 (16:36):
I don't know that I really had a clear idea, to be
honest, like when I was gettingthe degree, like I knew I really
liked public health and againsort of quickly became really
interested in like how do weaddress these upstream drivers
of health.
I don't know that I had a veryclear sort of plan or idea or
(17:02):
dream job or any of those things.
So I was far away from home forthe first time when I was doing
my master's program in thesummer between my first and
second year.
My only rationale was I wantedan internship where I could be
back at home and so my parentslive outside of Richmond,
virginia, and Richmond is thestate capital of Virginia.
(17:23):
So I knew the state healthdepartment was there and I
honestly cold emailed the chairof their injury and violence
prevention department at thetime I was taking actually a
suicide prevention course.
That just like blew my mind.
I thought it was so interestingand really thinking about again
(17:45):
those like policy systems,environmental shifts that can
help us, you know, reducesomething like suicide, and so
cold emails the director of theinjury and violence prevention
department at the state healthdepartment.
So I always tell people likedon't try away from cold
emailing.
I'm not saying make it yourmain strategy in life, but you
know sometimes it works.
(18:07):
And so she got back to me and,you know, exchanged some emails
and things and ended upinterning there that summer
between my first and second yearof grad school.
And then, you know, when I wasgraduating they had a job posted
for a program coordinator and Iapplied and that was my first
(18:29):
job.
So it was at a state healthdepartment which in that sense I
feel like, was clearly like oneof the public health pads that
I knew existed and, you know,thought might be interesting.
So I feel like I learned somuch, I mean both in the
internship and in the actualyear plus that I worked there.
I think state and local healthdepartments are often, even as a
(18:57):
entry level kind of person, hadwhat felt, certainly at the
time, like a lot of ownershipover the particular program I
was managing.
So I feel like it was just anamazing opportunity to learn a
lot and actually has ownership,at least in this little bubble,
(19:18):
so I really appreciated thoseaspects of it.
I think there are other aspectsaround, you know, low pay and
government bureaucracy andthings like that that made it
hard to stick it out for verylong.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
And so where did kind of like the next path lead you
to?
Because I think you spent abouta year or so in that role and
then yeah, yeah, so I was therefor a year.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
So and again like actually really loved a lot of
aspects of the work and goingout.
I was managing the youthviolence and bullying prevention
program and was going out toschools across the state on,
which actually connects to someof the work I do now actually.
So I've always I reallyappreciated being able to be out
(20:03):
directly in communities and indifferent communities across the
state and all of that waswonderful.
I think it really wascombination of just like
bureaucracy and like thestruggle to no-transcript
implement new or different ideasand all of that kind of
contributed to it.
And again, I feel like reallyin many ways accidental,
(20:30):
unanticipated moves.
It wasn't anything superthought out.
I did want to go back to DC.
I had interned in DC, you know,summers in college and things
and wanted to go back there andI knew there was a lot of public
health work in DC.
And I actually reached out to mymentor from grad school and was
like, hey, trying to, you know,find work in DC, let me know.
(20:51):
And he was like, oh, mycolleague is hiring for her
research team on the truth antismoking campaign.
So the truth anti smokingcampaign is one of the few well
funded public healthcommunication campaigns because
of the way the funding wasstructured.
So when all of the stateattorney generals in the US
(21:14):
essentially sued the tobaccocompanies for basically
defrauding the public and therewas big master settlement
agreement there's actually asimilar one with opioid
companies now that funding isrolling out now but similarly in
the 90s for the tobaccocompanies they had this master
settlement agreement and theybasically set aside a portion of
those funds, almost the wayuniversities do an endowment,
(21:36):
and they funded this sort ofindependent nonprofit entity
that used to be called theLegacy Foundation and is now
called Truth Initiative to dothis mass media campaign and
they had in house research andevaluation team.
Anyway, it was literally, yeah,a random outreach to a mentor
from grad school and he said, oh, she's hiring, I applied and
(21:59):
then was there for several yearsactually.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
And this was in like a research role right.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Research and evaluation role.
So yeah, so I went from kind ofprogram managing, a more on the
ground kind of program, to verymuch research and evaluation.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
What are your thoughts on taking like similar
roles but there's differentskill sets that you're learning
early on in your career andtrying a little bit of
everything in the beginning tofigure out like where is it that
your interests and yourstrengths lie?
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Right, right, and I think, yeah, this goes back to
kind of those pearls on anecklace kind of idea, like I
feel like state healthdepartment was doing a little
bit of everything.
You know, I was doing a littlebit of research and evaluation
because like there wasn't, youknow, a separate research and
evaluation team.
The person who programmed it,all the things so you know is
(22:51):
doing on site trainings andtalks at schools.
I was doing some like surveydevelopment and evaluation and
some reporting, some likecreation of communication
materials, like a little bit ofall the things, and then at
truth really got a very in depthorientation both to health
communications and you know wewere not involved directly in
(23:16):
developing the messaging andthings like that, but we kind of
saw the reality of how that allworked and at truth again,
because it is one of the fewunusually well funded public
health campaigns.
You know they worked withprofessional marketing agencies.
You know, did like a full gamutof market research, the way
(23:37):
that companies do, and all ofthat, and sort of saw how the
creative side of it cametogether.
And then, of course, wasdirectly involved in like the
research evaluation side of itand saw what you know a large
scale evaluation of a nationalcampaign looked like all of the
nuances and details of that.
So, yeah, learned a lot andultimately, again like my move
(23:58):
from truth was really motivatedby I was feeling very siloed,
like I'm getting deeper anddeeper into this tobacco
prevention and control work andlike I was sort of like where's
my big public health upstreamdeterminants?
Everything is interconnectedstuff, and so I actually went
specifically looking for likewhere could I work in DC that
(24:19):
actually does that?
And that's sort of how I foundTrust for America's Health,
which I had like read about andheard about in grad school and
stuff.
But and it's a very small interms of number of employees,
small nonprofit, but they verymuch work across topics, like
they're not working on aparticular public health issue,
(24:40):
they're working on public healthfor at large and trying to make
the case for policy change in away that cuts across issues and
I mean not to say they don'thave some like specific topics
they work on.
But especially when I startedthere, the very first report for
them that I worked on was theirblueprint that they do every
four years.
That's kind of big picture ofpublic health policy
(25:01):
recommendations for the newadministration, and so that's
sort of what.
What took me to Trust forAmerica's Health was an interest
in getting at that like crosscutting type approach and also a
more policy lens as well.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Yeah, and as you're kind of talking through each of
the roles that you've held, Ikeep thinking back to the pearls
on the necklace and like Ivisually have your LinkedIn
profile open.
So I'm like following along andI can picture that right, like
you went from knowing how tolike work on a program at the
state level and then you're likegoing into work on some data as
(25:39):
a researcher and then goinginto communication, and I'm
assuming that interest grew morewhen you were at Truth
Initiative because you'reexposed to stakeholders kind of
in that field and the marketingcompanies.
So I think for our listenerssometimes, when they listen to
stories or the journeys of moreestablished public health
(26:02):
practitioners, it feels likethis, like perfect line that
they were able to follow, and weknow that it's not like that
right, they think about my ownjourney.
It looks perfect on paper but Ithink sometimes you question
your decisions, sometimes youget opportunities that you have
(26:22):
to pass over because it's justnot aligned, but then when you
look at it on LinkedIn, it looksperfect.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
Well, that's the thing.
It's like the retrospect, Imean.
This is where, like sometimes,I worry that my inclination
towards storytelling does adisservice to what you're
talking about, which is thereality that, like nothing,
feels like a story that makessense when you're in it right.
Like none of my moves were allthat intentional or planned and
(26:49):
like none of it made sense atthe time, like it was just sort
of an Opportunity presenteditself.
It sort of checked enough boxesthat I wanted to do it and I
did it, and sort of ten yearsdown the road, looking at it in
the rear view mirror, you cantell a story that makes it all
connect and feels like pearls ona necklace or whatever, but
like in the moment, none of itfelt that way and I think it
(27:13):
often doesn't and that's okay,like I think that, whether we
See it or not, you know, we areall the sum of the experiences
we've had and that willEventually, you know, find a way
to shine through.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Yeah, I Sometimes get to run this workshop.
I call it career road mappingand it's about like figuring out
what you want to do next inyour career.
But I often start that workshopand I dedicate a lot of time
for people to sit and justquietly reflect on the path that
they came from and like writedown everything that they've
(27:53):
done.
And Every single time I've donethat, when I ask people to
share kind of just the emotionsthat came up, everyone is often
very proud of everything they'vedone, which they didn't
realized when they came to thatworkshop.
And and I tell people that youcan do this stuff regularly
every year.
So to just think back to whereyou've come and put that story
(28:16):
together, if you will right likesometimes it's, you don't need
to be on a podcast to tell you astory.
You can sit at your desk andand reflect and be really proud
of the decisions you've had tomake in the pivots and I think
sometimes it empowers us to Puta little bit of a story to all
the different things that we'vedone.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Right now.
It's a really good.
It's a really good point thatthat in and of itself can
provide some confidence.
You know, pride, as you weresaying exactly.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Yeah, yeah yeah.
I had a Period where I thoughtmaybe I wanted to go into like
migration, health or something.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
Okay, yeah, and.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
I was.
I remember thinking I was likeoh man, I built my entire career
on like infectious diseaseepidemiology.
There's no way, like I have anyexperience to like using an
application, but kind of likereflecting back, you end up
finding the little threads ofwhere you did work on those
topics and it actually was therethroughout these past few years
(29:18):
and you end up like tellingthat story if you don't look for
the story.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
That's right.
That's right.
I find that comes through forme a lot now as a consultant,
when you know I'm submitting inresponse to, like a request for
proposal, or even just you knowSomeone's reaching out and I'm
at.
You know, tell me a little bitabout your experience in this
space is exactly what you'resaying.
So yeah, oh yeah, like I forgot, there was like this little
(29:45):
thread and this little Startputting them together and it
kind of all adds up, even if youit wasn't really like top of
mind.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
That's a good segue to Talkingabout the next pivot you made in
your career and ended up, Iguess, working for yourself and
founded a company called pophealth.
So how did that happen and whydid it happen?
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Yeah, absolutely.
So.
Here is another.
I will share what what it waslike and what the motivating
factors were in real time.
And then kind of the story thatAppears in retrospect but I
think at the time it was Largely, if not entirely, practically
motivated.
(30:30):
So I was working at trust forAmerica's health.
I made the transition fromworking on the truth campaign to
trust for America's healthwhile I was getting my DRPH
part-time.
So I had already started thatwhile I was at truth and then,
like transition to trust forAmerica's health, was still
working on my DRPH part-time andI Defended my dissertation
(30:52):
proposal so not the actualdissertation, but the phase
before that defended my proposalwhen I was like seven and a
half, eight months pregnant andthen Then went on maternity
leave from work and then after afew months came back To working
full-time in DC we live inNorthern Virginia so I was
(31:13):
commuting like an hour each way,five days a week, working
full-time, coming back home toWanting to spend time with the
baby, and then was sort of like,hmm, I have this dissertation
that I'm supposed to be workingon and writing and I don't think
this All adds up.
The math isn't method, as theysay, and so I was like, okay,
(31:36):
what do I do?
And it's very funny thinkingabout this now, sort of like
again with COVID, and like theway things changed and whatever.
But at the time when I, you know, went to my employer and was
like, hey, can I Work from homeonce or twice a week?
Can I switch to part-time?
And they're basically like no,hmm.
(31:56):
So I was like, alright, peaceout, like this isn't gonna work.
And so On my way out I was likeyou know, I was working on a
couple projects.
At the time I was like, youknow, if you want me to continue
to support those projects in aconsulting capacity, I'm happy
to do that.
You know, just be working on mydissertation, so I have some
time.
And they were like, yes, let'sdo that.
(32:18):
And so I started off during theperiod I was working on my
dissertation at trust, forMarcus health was my only client
and I was like very part-time,just, you know, working on some
projects there Finished mydissertation, you know, had the
time to like spend more time athome and with the baby and all
of these things finish thedissertation graduated and then
(32:40):
I was, like you know, I sort ofstarted Consulting, like maybe I
can see if I can just turn thisinto what I do.
And so it started almost as alittle experiment of like okay,
let's Do some networking, talkto some people, see if I can get
more clients, or what have you,and then it just sort of slowly
(33:04):
, slowly grew from there.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Wow.
And so, when you think back,what is this story here?
Speaker 1 (33:12):
Yes, oh yes, thank you for reminding me the second
part of it.
The story which I feel likeonly became Super clear in
retrospect, is that while I wasworking at trust for America's
health so again I camespecifically because I was like
I want to work at thisintersection of different public
health topics, I want to thinkupstream, I want to think about
(33:33):
policy systems change I actuallyloved all like that is what
working at trust for America'shealth was all of those things
and I loved it and At the sametime I found myself feeling so
Disconnected, like I was likewe're doing this sort of 30,000
foot level policy research,we're putting out these reports,
(33:54):
but like I don't Know what'shappening on the ground, I don't
know that communities are, youknow, are they getting these
reports?
Are they looking at them?
Is any of this like translatingat that level?
Like I know, at trust forAmerica's health, they, you know
, they had a government affairsteam.
They were, you know, workingwith taking these policy
(34:15):
recommendations to Congress.
They were absolutely, you know,moving forward at that level.
But for me personally, I wasjust like and again, kind of
those state health departmentroots, like I used to be out in
these communities, and I wasjust like I feel really
disconnected.
And so I knew that when I hitthis point where I was like,
okay, let me see if I can turnthis consulting thing into
(34:37):
something, I knew that for it tobe satisfying to me, you know,
I wanted to see if I couldcreate something that would be a
bridge between this 30,000 footpolicy level and the
communities where the work isactually taking place.
And so eventually and it took awhile I feel like when you're
(35:01):
starting your own consultingpractice and building it up, at
the beginning it was definitelylike I'll do almost anything
that anyone is interested inhiring me to do.
But once sort of I hit like acertain level of having built
things up when I startedfocusing down on like what I
wanted in my consulting practiceto focus on.
I was very much thinking aboutlike how can I do things that
(35:25):
will help bridge, like I stillwant to do that policy, systems
upstream work and I want to feelmore connected to communities
and to be able to bridge thatpiece.
And so in consulting they talka lot about like meaching down.
So when I finally sort of nichedown, popped health, that was
my goal and I really am nowfocused on working with
(35:51):
community coalitions andcollaboratives that are trying
to transform health in theircommunities through policy and
systems change and really try tokind of be this bridge to.
You know, there's lots of greatresearch and tools and
strategies and informationaround.
How do we collaborate withcommunity, how do we collaborate
(36:12):
across multi-center coalitions?
How do we engage in actionplanning and strategic planning?
How do we do evaluation in away that's participatory and how
do we tell our stories,evaluation and impact in all of
these things?
And so those are the things Inow focus on working with
community coalitions andcollaboratives that are on the
(36:32):
ground in their communities andreally trying to bring this
support and extend theircapacity and build their
capacity to do these kinds ofthings.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
And so like, what exactly are like services that
they're getting from PopHealth?
Are you developingcommunication products for them
or are you facilitatingworkshops or things like that?
Speaker 1 (36:53):
Yeah, so you're actually capturing the
transition that PopHealth iscurrently in.
So I feel like right now we doa little bit of both of those
things.
But, yeah, our main areas ofservices are in the areas of
community collaborations andthat looks very different in
every community and depending onthe topic and the group and
whatever.
But basically, how do we makethis work community driven?
(37:17):
How do we work with communitymembers?
How do we make sure their inputis not just captured but also
driving whatever is happening?
And also that collaborationacross multi-sector coalitions
like there's a lot just in howdo we work together as a
coalition or a collaborativeacross organizations and sectors
(37:38):
.
And then we do a lot of meeting, facilitation, that sort of
thing with coalitions to helpthem work together more
effectively.
And also around action planning.
So actually moving them throughkind of like visioning and
coming up with aims to what doesthat mean for specific action
steps you're gonna take andwho's gonna take them and what's
that gonna look like.
And really getting granularwith that.
(38:01):
We do evaluation and monitoring,evaluation and learning
services and helping coalitionsand collaboratives track their
impacts, gather data, tell thestories and then effective
storytelling.
So really thinking about how,what stories are we sharing?
How are we sharing them?
How can we make ourcommunication compelling,
(38:21):
digestible, understandable tocommunity members?
So right now, with a lot of thecoalitions we work with, we are
really like in theirfacilitating meetings.
We are writing action plans, weare gathering data for
evaluation and synthesizing it,creating communication products,
all of those things.
(38:42):
And I think, as Pop Health hasgrown and as we collectively and
I personally, kind of start tohit capacity in terms of like
there are no more hours in theweek we are currently in a phase
, I would say, of sort oftransitioning a little bit more
to how can we build the capacityof coalitions to do this work,
(39:03):
so thinking a little bit moreabout trainings and workshops
and other ways to getinformation out there.
We have a biweekly newsletterthat we're really have been
gearing up recently to reallyput these strategies and tools
in the hands of coalitions andhoping to move more in that
direction and that feels alittle bit more scalable, where
(39:25):
we can still be this bridgebetween the big picture policy
systems, change in communitiesbut maybe do that in a way where
we can scale a little bit andwork with more coalitions
without running out of our owntime.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
So when you have your own company and I know you like
talking about solo partnershipand entrepreneurship a lot as
well you're just learning how tonot only like deliver services
to your clients, but also tryingto figure out, like, how do I
take this business that I'vecreated and make it functional
and sustainable?
And you're kind of having tolike pivot within that itself as
(40:03):
well, right yeah 100%.
This has been such a lovely chat, venu and I know when we
recorded the other episode withLeah and talked about
self-employment in public health, we did say that that
conversation didn't end Just yet.
We have a lot more to talkabout and so for anyone
listening who's like wonderingwhy I didn't get to dive deeper
(40:26):
into pop health and kind of likethat journey, we're hoping we
can do that in a differentepisode and this was exclusively
just to learn about the journeythat Venu has taken and all the
pearls that she's collected onthat necklace.
So thank you so much forjoining me on this episode.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
I'm pleasure.
Thanks so much for having me.
Hey, I hope you enjoyed thatepisode.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
And if you want to get the links or information
mentioned in today's episode,you can head over to phspotorg
slash podcast and we'll haveeverything there for you.
And before you go, I want totell you about the Public Health
Career Club.
So if you've been looking for aplace to connect and build
meaningful relationships withother public health
(41:09):
professionals from all aroundthe world, you should join us in
the public health community.
From all around the world.
You should join us in thePublic Health Career Club.
We launched the club with thevision of becoming the number
one hangout spot dedicated tobuilding and growing your dream
public health career.
And in addition to being ableto connect and build those
(41:30):
meaningful relationships withother public health
professionals, the club alsooffers other great resources for
your career growth and success,like mindset coaching, job
preparation clinics and careergrowth strategy sessions in the
form of trainings and talks, alldelivered by experts and
inspiring individuals in theseareas.
So if you want to learn more orwant to join the club, you can
(41:53):
visit our page at phspotorgslash club and we'll have all
the information there.
And as a space that's beingintentionally curated to bring
together like-minded publichealth professionals who are not
only there to push themselvesto become the best versions of
themselves, but also each other,and with that I can't wait to
(42:16):
see how this is going to have aripple effect in the world, as
we all work together to betterthe health of our populations
and just have immense impact inthe world, and I hope you'll be
joining us in the Public HealthCareer Club.
Think of your careers as like pearls on a necklace
that you're collecting, asopposed to something like a
ladder right, and I've alwaysloved that, because it's exactly
what you're saying.
Every experience is valuable,and just because you're pivoting
and going to do something elsedoesn't negate your experience.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Welcome to PH Spotlight, a community for you
to build your public healthcareer with.
Join us weekly right here andI'll be here too your host,
sujani Siva from PH Spot.
Hi, vinu, and welcome backactually to the podcast, because
I think our listeners will haveheard the episode you me and
(00:49):
Leah recorded from just likeself-employment in public health
, and I really wanted to hearabout your journey.
And here we are, the two of uschatting about that.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Wonderful.
Well, thank you so much forhaving me and, yes, happy to be
here, awesome and.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I think the other piece that you and I mutually
felt excited about is that we'reboth, you know, south Asian and
women in public health, whichwas also, you know, really nice
for me to just connect withsomebody who has very similar
roots to me, so this will be afun combo, for sure.
Okay, so one of my favoritequestions, and one that often
(01:26):
kick starts this conversation,is how people discovered public
health and that this fieldexists, and I saw, when I was
preparing for this, that youactually started off your
studies in like engineering.
How does one go from wanting topursue engineering to then like
discovering public health?
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Everything was accidental in my interest in
engineering as well as in publichealth.
I know it always cracks me up.
I feel like at some point inthe future I feel like you'll
start getting different answersto this question, in the sense
of you know it cracks me up,like especially after COVID you
know, people know that publichealth exists and is a field and
(02:07):
have like some sense of what itis.
But when I was in college Iquite literally did not know
that public health was a fieldor what it was.
Even my interest in engineeringdidn't really start out as an
interest in engineering per se.
I was interested.
I was actually interested inboth journalism and biology.
It was actually like which oneof these do I want to do in
(02:27):
college and ultimately sort of alittle bit of practicality
winning out and being like, well, writing and journalism I can
always do.
You know, on the side, maybelike major wise, I'll go biology
route.
And just you know, familyfriend randomly was like, oh, if
you're going to do biology,like think about doing
biomedical engineering, becausethe classes will be a lot
smaller.
(02:48):
And that was literally theextent of my rationale.
I was like, oh, that soundsgreat, I'll do that.
And then sort of found myselfin engineering school with
everything that that entails.
But I actually lovedengineering academically.
I've always, you know, likedmath and numbers and whatever.
So it was.
It was a very good fit andinteresting academically.
(03:09):
But I quickly realized, youknow, I was in biomedical
engineering and I'm like, okay,I don't really want to be in a
lab pipetting things all day, Idon't really want to be in front
of a computer modeling thingslike.
And I was quickly running outof.
I was like there are no careeroptions here that actually
appealed to me.
So what do I do?
And was trying to figure out.
(03:30):
I was still at that point, youknow, was writing for the
college newspaper, so still sortof had a foot in like the
journalism, writing,communications arena.
I was giving tours of theuniversity.
I've always really enjoyedpublic speaking, so I was kind
of trying to figure out how do Imerge these things that I like
doing with my interest in healthand medicine.
I was also starting to get moreexposed to and interested in
(03:52):
sort of like broader societalimplications of, you know, of
technology and engineering isthe way it was introduced to us
in engineering school.
But yeah, I did the engineeringschool at the University of
Virginia, where I went, had ascience, technology and policy
internship program and so I didthat.
Internship was in DC for thesummer and it really just kind
(04:17):
of became clear that this waskind of the direction that spoke
to my combination of interests.
And then I randomly bumped intomy resident advisor on grounds
one day and she was applying tombh programs and it was like a
light bulb and I was like publichealth, like that sounds like
(04:37):
it could be the mix of things.
And then I I you know googled itand was like, okay, like this
seems like the right mix ofthings that I'm interested in,
and so then that is how I foundpublic health and have been
there ever since.
So I actually started in publichealth, really interested kind
of specifically in healthcommunications because I was
(04:57):
sort of coming at it from that,you know communications and
health interest.
But I feel like really just dayone of my masters in public
health program we had like asocial epidemiology course our
first year and just kind ofgetting oriented to the idea of
these upstream drivers of healthand I feel like I was
(05:18):
immediately sold and immediatelyinterested in much more broadly
interested in public health asa field yeah, it's interesting
because I I'm kind of likereflecting back to the time when
I got introduced to publichealth and it's very similar.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
You kind of know the areas that you're interested in
and like what you want to do,but you can't figure out that
word.
And then when somebody startstelling you about, like public
health and for me it wasepidemiology and then you know,
oh my god, that's what I want todo and you almost know, because
your interests are now likematching up with this word that
somebody just has introduced toyou, and then like yeah, you
(05:55):
jump on the computer and youstart reading.
You're like, oh my god, this iswhat I've been looking for.
Okay, so you, you discoverpublic health while you're still
like pursuing your bachelor's.
Is that right?
yeah, yeah okay, and then?
What are some of your nextsteps from there?
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Yeah, so I continued.
I mean again, I was enjoyingthe biomedical engineering
program academically so I neverreally considered sort of
switching majors or anything atthe undergrad level Also,
certainly at the time at theundergrad level like there was
not a public health degree to behad anyway.
But I continued in biomedicalengineering, but every summer.
(06:32):
So it started with the scienceand technology policy internship
program and then the summerafter that our university had
small sort of undergraduateresearch grants.
So I applied for a researchgrant that was public health
focused, actually looking atnutrition and related behaviors
amongst those with diabetes,actually in South India, in
(06:53):
Thumbelnato where my family isfrom, and it took the
opportunity to do some workthere one summer and then summer
after that does some work againpolicy related, in the
governor's office in Virginia.
So sort of used sort of thesummers to kind of explore more
of this public health interestarea.
(07:16):
And then I did apply for amaster's program straight out of
undergrad and went directlyinto a master's program for
public health, which inretrospect I don't know that
that is what I would do, but atthe time it felt like the way to
get into the field.
In retrospect I later did mydoctoral degree.
(07:39):
I got a DRPH in public healthpart time while I was still
working and also after I hadworked for a few years, and at
that point I feel like there wasso much more I could put in
context from what we werelearning in class.
So again, kind of looking inretrospect, sometimes I'm like
if I knew everything I knew nowI probably would have worked for
(07:59):
a bit.
But at the time it seems likethe right thing and I do think
especially for me because myundergraduate degree was not in
anything related to publichealth.
I feel like those two years inthe master's program really
shaped my understanding of whatpublic health is and what areas
(08:19):
I was most interested in.
So, it was very formative inthat sense, yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Something that we both said we'll chat about in
today's convo was this idea oflike pivoting, and sometimes I
guess you think about the sunkcost, if you will, for lack of a
better word, and you think letme just go through with it,
especially you having investedfour years into a biomedical
(08:45):
engineering degree.
That must have been a, or I'massuming it must have been a
very difficult decision to say,okay, I'm not going to go work,
I'm going to go and pursue adifferent field where I know my
interests and kind of everythingI want to do is align to this
degree.
Can you talk a bit about whathappened with you during that
time and whether that was easyfor you or not?
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Yeah, I mean I don't know if I would say it was easy
necessarily, but I will say likeI don't think I had any doubts
because it was very clear to meagain, like in terms of what I
liked doing, it was very clearthat none of the traditional
sort of biomedical engineeringpaths were going to be what I
(09:27):
enjoyed doing.
And so I feel like in thatsense again, finding public
health is probably one of thefew like light bulb moments, and
I feel like people always talkabout light bulb moments and I
feel like there sometimes itfeels like that doesn't really
happen in real life.
But I feel like this was one ofthe few in my life that really
did feel like a light bulbmoment, like oh, like this is
(09:47):
exactly what you were saying,this is what I've been looking
for and I just didn't know thatthis existed or this is what it
was called, and in some ways Ifeel I mean I agree like any
pivot is hard, in the sense ofyou feel like you've put in time
and effort and energy and youknow biomedical engineering
degree was hard, like I alwayssay, like I'm kind of glad I did
(10:08):
that academically becausenothing that came afterwards
felt hard.
But you know, after all of that, you know it does take some
energy and courage and faith tolike decide to make a pivot.
But I find it's actually Ithink people struggle a lot more
with pivoting further intotheir career.
I feel like when you'rewhatever you've done some
(10:31):
academic work or early in yourcareer, I think it's a little
easier.
I think I've seen a lot offriends and colleagues struggle
with the idea of pivoting whenyou're a little further into
your career.
And I mean this happened to me.
So for several years I workedon evaluation of an anti smoking
campaign and like the tobaccocontrol and prevention world is
(10:54):
a very specifically focused kindof arena.
You know you're interactingwith a lot of folks who are in
the same space, going toconferences with a lot of folks
in the same space.
No-transcript For me.
I hit a point where I was like Idon't want to be siloed,
working on a specific issue.
The whole appeal of publichealth to me was that everything
(11:16):
was interconnected.
I was intentional about I wantto seek a job that is not siloed
in this topical way and wentabout that very specifically.
I think I've seen othercolleagues feel similarly but
feel like but I have all ofthese years of work experience
(11:39):
in this space, this is my entirenetwork Like how could I
possibly pivot to something else?
I think that what I tried to do, and what I always encourage
other people to do and thinkabout, is, at the end of the day
, I feel like the thing thatmatters is what is it that you
most want to do?
All of your experience andskills can be framed in a way
(12:05):
that is connected to that thing.
Of course, there are some pivots.
If you have to be a medicaldoctor, there are certain things
you have to do.
That's just the nature of thegame.
But for a lot of us in publichealth, depending on what it is
that you want to do, the padsare not so defined.
So there's actually a lot ofopportunity to pivot if that's
(12:26):
something you want to do.
So I think it's just a matterof thinking about how do I take
my experiences and skills andframe it in a way that it
becomes clear what translates,what can even be a value add
when you have a different lensand a different perspective and
you're bringing it to somethingnew that can be really valuable.
(12:47):
So I just think pivoting is alot more possible than people
think it is.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Yeah, and I think there's a mindset shift that has
to occur at that point, becauseif we think that this
experience would have beenwasted if I move into something
else, I think your ability tomake that pivot becomes harder.
But if you shift that to thinkno experience is bad experience,
(13:14):
every experience I've hadbuilds upon itself.
And how can I use that in thisnew path I'm about to take?
Speaker 1 (13:23):
It's such a good point, and one of my mentors
once described this as likethink of your careers as like
pearls on a necklace that you'recollecting, as opposed to
something like a ladder, andI've always loved that because
it's exactly what you're saying,like every experience is
(13:44):
valuable and just because you'repivoting and going to do
something else doesn't negateyour experience.
We take different things and Ithink about this all the time
with engineering in the sense oflike I haven't used a
differential equation since Iwas in college, so like one
could look at that and be like,wow, what wasted time and energy
(14:06):
that was never used again.
Right.
But I feel like every problemwe solve, every experience we
have, it is training your brainto think.
In certain ways, it is givingyou a certain lens on problems.
For me, engineering inparticular is it's about systems
and that's what public healthis about too, and I feel like
(14:28):
that connection in some ways isabstract in the sense of like my
day to day work is not thethings I was doing in
engineering school, but I feellike that sort of way of
thinking in lens is like verydeep rooted in me because of
sort of that engineeringtraining and then building on
that with public health.
So, yeah, I really like theidea of sort of like collecting
(14:52):
pearls on a necklace, like theexperiences might not all be
like directly building on top ofeach other, but they are all
valuable and adding up to youknow, a stump that's greater
than it was.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Once in engineering, always an engineer, I guess.
Yeah, I guess that I'm curious,like do you have a very
intentional reflection period inyour day or your like week?
You seem to have periods whenyou put together the different
pieces of your journey and I'malways curious to learn from
(15:27):
everyone's kind of likereflection methodologies.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Yeah, that's such a good question.
I mean not in a highlyconsistent or systematic way I'm
not yet a journal or or youknow anything like that but I
like stories in all shapes andforms.
I feel like that.
You know, I was a dancer, awriter, tour guide, like all of
(15:52):
these things that wereultimately about telling a story
, and so I feel like I'm alwaystrying to synthesize information
into a story, and that appliesto, like, my own journey in life
too.
So I feel like I do a lot, justsort of innately, in the way I
think and process things.
(16:13):
I do a lot of that kind of likereflection and, yeah, just
storytelling.
So I feel like that is wheresome of that comes from.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Anyway, I like that.
Okay, so you go on to get anMPH degree.
Where did you think you wouldbe working when you're like
pursuing your MPH degree, and isthat how it all panned out?
Speaker 1 (16:36):
I don't know that I really had a clear idea, to be
honest, like when I was gettingthe degree, like I knew I really
liked public health and againsort of quickly became really
interested in like how do weaddress these upstream drivers
of health.
I don't know that I had a veryclear sort of plan or idea or
(17:02):
dream job or any of those things.
So I was far away from home forthe first time when I was doing
my master's program in thesummer between my first and
second year.
My only rationale was I wantedan internship where I could be
back at home and so my parentslive outside of Richmond,
virginia, and Richmond is thestate capital of Virginia.
(17:23):
So I knew the state healthdepartment was there and I
honestly cold emailed the chairof their injury and violence
prevention department at thetime I was taking actually a
suicide prevention course.
That just like blew my mind.
I thought it was so interestingand really thinking about again
(17:45):
those like policy systems,environmental shifts that can
help us, you know, reducesomething like suicide, and so
cold emails the director of theinjury and violence prevention
department at the state healthdepartment.
So I always tell people likedon't try away from cold
emailing.
I'm not saying make it yourmain strategy in life, but you
know sometimes it works.
(18:07):
And so she got back to me and,you know, exchanged some emails
and things and ended upinterning there that summer
between my first and second yearof grad school.
And then, you know, when I wasgraduating they had a job posted
for a program coordinator and Iapplied and that was my first
(18:29):
job.
So it was at a state healthdepartment which in that sense I
feel like, was clearly like oneof the public health pads that
I knew existed and, you know,thought might be interesting.
So I feel like I learned somuch, I mean both in the
internship and in the actualyear plus that I worked there.
I think state and local healthdepartments are often, even as a
(18:57):
entry level kind of person, hadwhat felt, certainly at the
time, like a lot of ownershipover the particular program I
was managing.
So I feel like it was just anamazing opportunity to learn a
lot and actually has ownership,at least in this little bubble,
(19:18):
so I really appreciated thoseaspects of it.
I think there are other aspectsaround, you know, low pay and
government bureaucracy andthings like that that made it
hard to stick it out for verylong.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
And so where did kind of like the next path lead you
to?
Because I think you spent abouta year or so in that role and
then yeah, yeah, so I was therefor a year.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
So and again like actually really loved a lot of
aspects of the work and goingout.
I was managing the youthviolence and bullying prevention
program and was going out toschools across the state on,
which actually connects to someof the work I do now actually.
So I've always I reallyappreciated being able to be out
(20:03):
directly in communities and indifferent communities across the
state and all of that waswonderful.
I think it really wascombination of just like
bureaucracy and like thestruggle to no-transcript
implement new or different ideasand all of that kind of
contributed to it.
And again, I feel like reallyin many ways accidental,
(20:30):
unanticipated moves.
It wasn't anything superthought out.
I did want to go back to DC.
I had interned in DC, you know,summers in college and things
and wanted to go back there andI knew there was a lot of public
health work in DC.
And I actually reached out to mymentor from grad school and was
like, hey, trying to, you know,find work in DC, let me know.
(20:51):
And he was like, oh, mycolleague is hiring for her
research team on the truth antismoking campaign.
So the truth anti smokingcampaign is one of the few well
funded public healthcommunication campaigns because
of the way the funding wasstructured.
So when all of the stateattorney generals in the US
(21:14):
essentially sued the tobaccocompanies for basically
defrauding the public and therewas big master settlement
agreement there's actually asimilar one with opioid
companies now that funding isrolling out now but similarly in
the 90s for the tobaccocompanies they had this master
settlement agreement and theybasically set aside a portion of
those funds, almost the wayuniversities do an endowment,
(21:36):
and they funded this sort ofindependent nonprofit entity
that used to be called theLegacy Foundation and is now
called Truth Initiative to dothis mass media campaign and
they had in house research andevaluation team.
Anyway, it was literally, yeah,a random outreach to a mentor
from grad school and he said, oh, she's hiring, I applied and
(21:59):
then was there for several yearsactually.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
And this was in like a research role right.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Research and evaluation role.
So yeah, so I went from kind ofprogram managing, a more on the
ground kind of program, to verymuch research and evaluation.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
What are your thoughts on taking like similar
roles but there's differentskill sets that you're learning
early on in your career andtrying a little bit of
everything in the beginning tofigure out like where is it that
your interests and yourstrengths lie?
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Right, right, and I think, yeah, this goes back to
kind of those pearls on anecklace kind of idea, like I
feel like state healthdepartment was doing a little
bit of everything.
You know, I was doing a littlebit of research and evaluation
because like there wasn't, youknow, a separate research and
evaluation team.
The person who programmed it,all the things so you know is
(22:51):
doing on site trainings andtalks at schools.
I was doing some like surveydevelopment and evaluation and
some reporting, some likecreation of communication
materials, like a little bit ofall the things, and then at
truth really got a very in depthorientation both to health
communications and you know wewere not involved directly in
(23:16):
developing the messaging andthings like that, but we kind of
saw the reality of how that allworked and at truth again,
because it is one of the fewunusually well funded public
health campaigns.
You know they worked withprofessional marketing agencies.
You know, did like a full gamutof market research, the way
(23:37):
that companies do, and all ofthat, and sort of saw how the
creative side of it cametogether.
And then, of course, wasdirectly involved in like the
research evaluation side of itand saw what you know a large
scale evaluation of a nationalcampaign looked like all of the
nuances and details of that.
So, yeah, learned a lot andultimately, again like my move
(23:58):
from truth was really motivatedby I was feeling very siloed,
like I'm getting deeper anddeeper into this tobacco
prevention and control work andlike I was sort of like where's
my big public health upstreamdeterminants?
Everything is interconnectedstuff, and so I actually went
specifically looking for likewhere could I work in DC that
(24:19):
actually does that?
And that's sort of how I foundTrust for America's Health,
which I had like read about andheard about in grad school and
stuff.
But and it's a very small interms of number of employees,
small nonprofit, but they verymuch work across topics, like
they're not working on aparticular public health issue,
(24:40):
they're working on public healthfor at large and trying to make
the case for policy change in away that cuts across issues and
I mean not to say they don'thave some like specific topics
they work on.
But especially when I startedthere, the very first report for
them that I worked on was theirblueprint that they do every
four years.
That's kind of big picture ofpublic health policy
(25:01):
recommendations for the newadministration, and so that's
sort of what.
What took me to Trust forAmerica's Health was an interest
in getting at that like crosscutting type approach and also a
more policy lens as well.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Yeah, and as you're kind of talking through each of
the roles that you've held, Ikeep thinking back to the pearls
on the necklace and like Ivisually have your LinkedIn
profile open.
So I'm like following along andI can picture that right, like
you went from knowing how tolike work on a program at the
state level and then you're likegoing into work on some data as
(25:39):
a researcher and then goinginto communication, and I'm
assuming that interest grew morewhen you were at Truth
Initiative because you'reexposed to stakeholders kind of
in that field and the marketingcompanies.
So I think for our listenerssometimes, when they listen to
stories or the journeys of moreestablished public health
(26:02):
practitioners, it feels likethis, like perfect line that
they were able to follow, and weknow that it's not like that
right, they think about my ownjourney.
It looks perfect on paper but Ithink sometimes you question
your decisions, sometimes youget opportunities that you have
(26:22):
to pass over because it's justnot aligned, but then when you
look at it on LinkedIn, it looksperfect.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
Well, that's the thing.
It's like the retrospect, Imean.
This is where, like sometimes,I worry that my inclination
towards storytelling does adisservice to what you're
talking about, which is thereality that, like nothing,
feels like a story that makessense when you're in it right.
Like none of my moves were allthat intentional or planned and
(26:49):
like none of it made sense atthe time, like it was just sort
of an Opportunity presenteditself.
It sort of checked enough boxesthat I wanted to do it and I
did it, and sort of ten yearsdown the road, looking at it in
the rear view mirror, you cantell a story that makes it all
connect and feels like pearls ona necklace or whatever, but
like in the moment, none of itfelt that way and I think it
(27:13):
often doesn't and that's okay,like I think that, whether we
See it or not, you know, we areall the sum of the experiences
we've had and that willEventually, you know, find a way
to shine through.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Yeah, I Sometimes get to run this workshop.
I call it career road mappingand it's about like figuring out
what you want to do next inyour career.
But I often start that workshopand I dedicate a lot of time
for people to sit and justquietly reflect on the path that
they came from and like writedown everything that they've
(27:53):
done.
And Every single time I've donethat, when I ask people to
share kind of just the emotionsthat came up, everyone is often
very proud of everything they'vedone, which they didn't
realized when they came to thatworkshop.
And and I tell people that youcan do this stuff regularly
every year.
So to just think back to whereyou've come and put that story
(28:16):
together, if you will right likesometimes it's, you don't need
to be on a podcast to tell you astory.
You can sit at your desk andand reflect and be really proud
of the decisions you've had tomake in the pivots and I think
sometimes it empowers us to Puta little bit of a story to all
the different things that we'vedone.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Right now.
It's a really good.
It's a really good point thatthat in and of itself can
provide some confidence.
You know, pride, as you weresaying exactly.
Speaker 2 (28:48):
Yeah, yeah yeah.
I had a Period where I thoughtmaybe I wanted to go into like
migration, health or something.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
Okay, yeah, and.
Speaker 2 (28:57):
I was.
I remember thinking I was likeoh man, I built my entire career
on like infectious diseaseepidemiology.
There's no way, like I have anyexperience to like using an
application, but kind of likereflecting back, you end up
finding the little threads ofwhere you did work on those
topics and it actually was therethroughout these past few years
(29:18):
and you end up like tellingthat story if you don't look for
the story.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
That's right.
That's right.
I find that comes through forme a lot now as a consultant,
when you know I'm submitting inresponse to, like a request for
proposal, or even just you knowSomeone's reaching out and I'm
at.
You know, tell me a little bitabout your experience in this
space is exactly what you'resaying.
So yeah, oh yeah, like I forgot, there was like this little
(29:45):
thread and this little Startputting them together and it
kind of all adds up, even if youit wasn't really like top of
mind.
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
That's a good segue to Talkingabout the next pivot you made in
your career and ended up, Iguess, working for yourself and
founded a company called pophealth.
So how did that happen and whydid it happen?
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Yeah, absolutely.
So.
Here is another.
I will share what what it waslike and what the motivating
factors were in real time.
And then kind of the story thatAppears in retrospect but I
think at the time it was Largely, if not entirely, practically
motivated.
(30:30):
So I was working at trust forAmerica's health.
I made the transition fromworking on the truth campaign to
trust for America's healthwhile I was getting my DRPH
part-time.
So I had already started thatwhile I was at truth and then,
like transition to trust forAmerica's health, was still
working on my DRPH part-time andI Defended my dissertation
(30:52):
proposal so not the actualdissertation, but the phase
before that defended my proposalwhen I was like seven and a
half, eight months pregnant andthen Then went on maternity
leave from work and then after afew months came back To working
full-time in DC we live inNorthern Virginia so I was
(31:13):
commuting like an hour each way,five days a week, working
full-time, coming back home toWanting to spend time with the
baby, and then was sort of like,hmm, I have this dissertation
that I'm supposed to be workingon and writing and I don't think
this All adds up.
The math isn't method, as theysay, and so I was like, okay,
(31:36):
what do I do?
And it's very funny thinkingabout this now, sort of like
again with COVID, and like theway things changed and whatever.
But at the time when I, you know, went to my employer and was
like, hey, can I Work from homeonce or twice a week?
Can I switch to part-time?
And they're basically like no,hmm.
(31:56):
So I was like, alright, peaceout, like this isn't gonna work.
And so On my way out I was likeyou know, I was working on a
couple projects.
At the time I was like, youknow, if you want me to continue
to support those projects in aconsulting capacity, I'm happy
to do that.
You know, just be working on mydissertation, so I have some
time.
And they were like, yes, let'sdo that.
(32:18):
And so I started off during theperiod I was working on my
dissertation at trust, forMarcus health was my only client
and I was like very part-time,just, you know, working on some
projects there Finished mydissertation, you know, had the
time to like spend more time athome and with the baby and all
of these things finish thedissertation graduated and then
(32:40):
I was, like you know, I sort ofstarted Consulting, like maybe I
can see if I can just turn thisinto what I do.
And so it started almost as alittle experiment of like okay,
let's Do some networking, talkto some people, see if I can get
more clients, or what have you,and then it just sort of slowly
(33:04):
, slowly grew from there.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Wow.
And so, when you think back,what is this story here?
Speaker 1 (33:12):
Yes, oh yes, thank you for reminding me the second
part of it.
The story which I feel likeonly became Super clear in
retrospect, is that while I wasworking at trust for America's
health so again I camespecifically because I was like
I want to work at thisintersection of different public
health topics, I want to thinkupstream, I want to think about
(33:33):
policy systems change I actuallyloved all like that is what
working at trust for America'shealth was all of those things
and I loved it and At the sametime I found myself feeling so
Disconnected, like I was likewe're doing this sort of 30,000
foot level policy research,we're putting out these reports,
(33:54):
but like I don't Know what'shappening on the ground, I don't
know that communities are, youknow, are they getting these
reports?
Are they looking at them?
Is any of this like translatingat that level?
Like I know, at trust forAmerica's health, they, you know
, they had a government affairsteam.
They were, you know, workingwith taking these policy
(34:15):
recommendations to Congress.
They were absolutely, you know,moving forward at that level.
But for me personally, I wasjust like and again, kind of
those state health departmentroots, like I used to be out in
these communities, and I wasjust like I feel really
disconnected.
And so I knew that when I hitthis point where I was like,
okay, let me see if I can turnthis consulting thing into
(34:37):
something, I knew that for it tobe satisfying to me, you know,
I wanted to see if I couldcreate something that would be a
bridge between this 30,000 footpolicy level and the
communities where the work isactually taking place.
And so eventually and it took awhile I feel like when you're
(35:01):
starting your own consultingpractice and building it up, at
the beginning it was definitelylike I'll do almost anything
that anyone is interested inhiring me to do.
But once sort of I hit like acertain level of having built
things up when I startedfocusing down on like what I
wanted in my consulting practiceto focus on.
I was very much thinking aboutlike how can I do things that
(35:25):
will help bridge, like I stillwant to do that policy, systems
upstream work and I want to feelmore connected to communities
and to be able to bridge thatpiece.
And so in consulting they talka lot about like meaching down.
So when I finally sort of nichedown, popped health, that was
my goal and I really am nowfocused on working with
(35:51):
community coalitions andcollaboratives that are trying
to transform health in theircommunities through policy and
systems change and really try tokind of be this bridge to.
You know, there's lots of greatresearch and tools and
strategies and informationaround.
How do we collaborate withcommunity, how do we collaborate
(36:12):
across multi-center coalitions?
How do we engage in actionplanning and strategic planning?
How do we do evaluation in away that's participatory and how
do we tell our stories,evaluation and impact in all of
these things?
And so those are the things Inow focus on working with
community coalitions andcollaboratives that are on the
(36:32):
ground in their communities andreally trying to bring this
support and extend theircapacity and build their
capacity to do these kinds ofthings.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
And so like, what exactly are like services that
they're getting from PopHealth?
Are you developingcommunication products for them
or are you facilitatingworkshops or things like that?
Speaker 1 (36:53):
Yeah, so you're actually capturing the
transition that PopHealth iscurrently in.
So I feel like right now we doa little bit of both of those
things.
But, yeah, our main areas ofservices are in the areas of
community collaborations andthat looks very different in
every community and depending onthe topic and the group and
whatever.
But basically, how do we makethis work community driven?
(37:17):
How do we work with communitymembers?
How do we make sure their inputis not just captured but also
driving whatever is happening?
And also that collaborationacross multi-sector coalitions
like there's a lot just in howdo we work together as a
coalition or a collaborativeacross organizations and sectors
(37:38):
.
And then we do a lot of meeting, facilitation, that sort of
thing with coalitions to helpthem work together more
effectively.
And also around action planning.
So actually moving them throughkind of like visioning and
coming up with aims to what doesthat mean for specific action
steps you're gonna take andwho's gonna take them and what's
that gonna look like.
And really getting granularwith that.
(38:01):
We do evaluation and monitoring,evaluation and learning
services and helping coalitionsand collaboratives track their
impacts, gather data, tell thestories and then effective
storytelling.
So really thinking about how,what stories are we sharing?
How are we sharing them?
How can we make ourcommunication compelling,
(38:21):
digestible, understandable tocommunity members?
So right now, with a lot of thecoalitions we work with, we are
really like in theirfacilitating meetings.
We are writing action plans, weare gathering data for
evaluation and synthesizing it,creating communication products,
all of those things.
(38:42):
And I think, as Pop Health hasgrown and as we collectively and
I personally, kind of start tohit capacity in terms of like
there are no more hours in theweek we are currently in a phase
, I would say, of sort oftransitioning a little bit more
to how can we build the capacityof coalitions to do this work,
(39:03):
so thinking a little bit moreabout trainings and workshops
and other ways to getinformation out there.
We have a biweekly newsletterthat we're really have been
gearing up recently to reallyput these strategies and tools
in the hands of coalitions andhoping to move more in that
direction and that feels alittle bit more scalable, where
(39:25):
we can still be this bridgebetween the big picture policy
systems, change in communitiesbut maybe do that in a way where
we can scale a little bit andwork with more coalitions
without running out of our owntime.
Speaker 2 (39:39):
So when you have your own company and I know you like
talking about solo partnershipand entrepreneurship a lot as
well you're just learning how tonot only like deliver services
to your clients, but also tryingto figure out, like, how do I
take this business that I'vecreated and make it functional
and sustainable?
And you're kind of having tolike pivot within that itself as
(40:03):
well, right yeah 100%.
This has been such a lovely chat, venu and I know when we
recorded the other episode withLeah and talked about
self-employment in public health, we did say that that
conversation didn't end Just yet.
We have a lot more to talkabout and so for anyone
listening who's like wonderingwhy I didn't get to dive deeper
(40:26):
into pop health and kind of likethat journey, we're hoping we
can do that in a differentepisode and this was exclusively
just to learn about the journeythat Venu has taken and all the
pearls that she's collected onthat necklace.
So thank you so much forjoining me on this episode.
Speaker 1 (40:44):
I'm pleasure.
Thanks so much for having me.
Hey, I hope you enjoyed thatepisode.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
And if you want to get the links or information
mentioned in today's episode,you can head over to phspotorg
slash podcast and we'll haveeverything there for you.
And before you go, I want totell you about the Public Health
Career Club.
So if you've been looking for aplace to connect and build
meaningful relationships withother public health
(41:09):
professionals from all aroundthe world, you should join us in
the public health community.
From all around the world.
You should join us in thePublic Health Career Club.
We launched the club with thevision of becoming the number
one hangout spot dedicated tobuilding and growing your dream
public health career.
And in addition to being ableto connect and build those
(41:30):
meaningful relationships withother public health
professionals, the club alsooffers other great resources for
your career growth and success,like mindset coaching, job
preparation clinics and careergrowth strategy sessions in the
form of trainings and talks, alldelivered by experts and
inspiring individuals in theseareas.
So if you want to learn more orwant to join the club, you can
(41:53):
visit our page at phspotorgslash club and we'll have all
the information there.
And as a space that's beingintentionally curated to bring
together like-minded publichealth professionals who are not
only there to push themselvesto become the best versions of
themselves, but also each other,and with that I can't wait to
(42:16):
see how this is going to have aripple effect in the world, as
we all work together to betterthe health of our populations
and just have immense impact inthe world, and I hope you'll be
joining us in the Public HealthCareer Club.
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