May 5, 2025 • 27 mins
The media landscape has fundamentally transformed, leaving brands struggling to navigate an increasingly fragmented ecosystem. But according to Michael Kempner, CEO of Mike WorldWide, this transformation presents unprecedented opportunities for those who understand how to leverage today's digital environment.
Kempner, speaking with host Peter Woolfolk, reveals how successful PR strategies have evolved from broad-brush approaches to precision-targeted, audience-centric campaigns. "Today you can design media strategies that are very audience-centric," Kempner explains, noting that younger generations have almost entirely abandoned traditional news sources like newspapers. Instead, they curate personalized news environments through digital channels, newsletters, and social platforms.
This shift demands a complete rethinking of media strategy. Rather than focusing solely on prestigious publications, brands must understand their audience's entire "media lifecycle" – what they consume when waking up, during commutes, at work, and before bed. Kempner calls this "the new top tier," emphasizing that cable news might reach only 1-2 million viewers while digital platforms collectively reach tens of millions.
Perhaps most revolutionary is how AI and predictive analytics have transformed campaign planning and measurement. These tools now enable unprecedented precision in targeting specific journalists, predicting content virality, and demonstrating clear ROI. "If we increase brand love for your service or product by 2%, I can tell you how many more cases of beer you're going to sell," Kempner notes, highlighting how PR can finally prove its value alongside other marketing disciplines.
For PR professionals seeking to remain relevant and effective, embracing these data-driven, audience-centric approaches isn't optional – it's essential. The future belongs to those who can integrate earned, owned and paid media strategies with precision measurement to deliver genuine business results in our increasingly complex digital ecosystem.
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Episode Transcript
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Announcer (00:04):
Welcome.
This is the Public RelationsReview Podcast, a program to
discuss the many facets ofpublic relations with seasoned
professionals, educators,authors and others.
Now here is your host, peterWoolfolk.
Peter Woolfolk (00:25):
Welcome to the Public Relations Review Podcast
and to our listeners all acrossAmerica and around the world.
Now, apple has ranked thispodcast among the top 1% of
podcasts worldwide and recentlyFeedspot listed this podcast as
number 13 on its top 70 bestpublic relations podcasts in the
United States.
So thank you to all of ourguests and listeners for your
(00:48):
continued support and if youenjoy the podcast, please leave
a review.
Now question for the audienceWith the continued evolution of
public relations, how can brandsbreak through, considering the
ever-changing media landscape?
Well, my guest today has ananswer for you.
He is the founder of MikeWorldwide, one of the largest
(01:08):
independent public relationsfirm, with offices in New York
City, new Jersey, los Angeles,london and Mexico City.
He has also counseled some ofthe world's most prominent
executives and brands Outside ofMike Worldwide.
He was also active in thepresidential campaigns of Barack
Obama, hillary Clinton and JoeBiden.
(01:29):
So joining me today from NewYork City is Michael Kempner,
ceo of Mike Worldwide.
Mike, welcome to the podcast.
Michael Kempner (01:37):
Well, thanks so much for having me here.
Peter Woolfolk (01:39):
Well, let's talk about just what are some of
those changes taking place inthe media, and how does one go
about developing strategies tomaximize the benefits of using
them.
Michael Kempner (01:50):
Well, thank you for the question.
It is a great question, onethat we work on every day, with
the rapid change in the media.
But there are a few, I think,core issues that are happening
today that are very important ifyou're thinking about putting
together a public relationsstrategy, One, it's really.
(02:11):
You know, today you can designmedia strategies that are very
audience-centric.
You know, when I started, itwas a much more broad-brushed
approach.
You know, there wasn't a greatway to really target in on who
you're speaking with.
You would do it more,publication by publication, but
have the similar, same messagesfor a broad stroke, an important
(02:33):
, broad group of people, and youreally couldn't even measure
the impact you're having.
But today you can do all that.
So if you think about designingyour strategy with your
audience in mind and what weused to call stakeholders, you
can be very specific in bothyour content and your channel
(02:54):
distribution.
So if you think about mediatoday, it's really about channel
distribution, and some of thebig changes that have happened
is, for instance, if you look atmedia consumption studies, if
you're a Gen Z, you're notreading the Wall Street Journal
or the New York Times.
(03:15):
All of your news is coming fromsome digital format.
You know we've heard aboutTikTok and Instagram, but there
are literally hundreds of places, if not thousands of places,
where the vast majority ofAmericans are finding the news.
To give you an example, cablenews in total doesn't reach much
(03:38):
more than a million or twomillion people a night, where
podcasts such as this, youtubeshows other newsletters, other
digital means, are reaching tensof millions of people.
So it's not to suggest thatlegacy media is dead or
unimportant, but it really is tosuggest to understand your
(04:02):
audience and understand thecontent and challenge
distribution so you can impactthem to whatever action you know
buy a product, enhance yourreputation, join your
organization, whatever it may be.
And the other important piece isyou know what we call here the
(04:23):
new top tier piece is you knowwhat we call here the new top
tier If you really look at themedia that people consume during
the life cycle of their day.
So what do they look at whenthey get up in the morning?
What do they look at on theircommute to work?
What do they?
look at during the day, whenthey're bored on a conference
call?
What do they look at on the wayhome?
(04:43):
What do they look at before bed?
And so there is a real lifecycle of each of us, and so how
do you create strategies thatwill have an impact on the full
life cycle of what we, again,what we call the new top tier?
Peter Woolfolk (05:03):
So, basically, what I'm hearing you say in the
beginning is here.
One is social media, to put itin a broad scope, because,
you're absolutely right, TikTokand Twitter and LinkedIn I mean
those have their followers.
The other thing which can, whenwe talk about this, is, as you
said, knowing your audience.
Then you can have your ownpodcast or your own blogs or
(05:24):
your own video content, becausethen you can say what it is you
want to say, how you want to sayit to the audience that you've
identified, that you want toreach.
Are those some of the ways ofgoing about that?
Michael Kempner (05:34):
I mean again, it goes beyond social media.
I would actually make itbroader digital media.
I mean if you're a farmer oryou're a conservative or you're
somebody of faith or you live inNew York, it's not likely
you're looking at that samemedia when you wake up in the
(05:55):
morning.
There are very specific nichepublications that are geared
towards you and your interests.
That are geared towards you andyour interests and we've also
passed the stage of where youactually go to find your news.
Your news is delivered to you.
It's much more of a pushenvironment Newsletters you
(06:18):
signed up for, breaking alertsor other websites, whether
you're on Blue Sky or X orThreads.
I mean you are curating yourown news environment, which both
is potential, both has gotpositives and negatives.
But you know, gone are the daythat you're going to the site,
(06:47):
the site and the news comes toyou.
Peter Woolfolk (06:52):
So looking at it the other way, is that one you
can have your own media, yourblogs and so forth, because
you've identified that audience,but you also need to know
enough about that audience toknow where they also other
places that they go to toconsume media and get
information.
Michael Kempner (07:09):
So part of but even having I'm sorry, I'm not
going to throw up, but evenhaving your own media and your
own podcast.
You know it takes a while todevelop a money.
Peter Woolfolk (07:18):
Right, oh, absolutely.
Michael Kempner (07:19):
So are you looking for a broad reach?
Then you might be better offparticipating.
Like you know, I don't have myown podcast.
You reach much more.
If I started one tomorrow, Iwouldn't have your reach.
Maybe you know a year or twofrom now I might, so again I it
goes back to there's so manydifferent potential distribution
channels.
What are those that are goingto give you the highest return?
(07:41):
and again, we do live in anearned, owned, owned, paid world
.
So some of this comes throughpaid media and a lot of it comes
through owned.
So you have your own channel,but major corporations have
their own channels.
They thought leadership.
I mean, most people don't knowthat LinkedIn has a bigger
readership than the New YorkTimes or the Wall Street Journal
(08:01):
, and so one could argueLinkedIn's the most important
media outlet if you're trying tofind an executive or a B2B, but
probably not with Gen Z or GenAlpha.
So it really depends.
Again back to beingaudience-centric, but you have
the opportunity to really, ifyou really understand your
(08:22):
audience, to pinpoint the mediaand the content that's going to
be on it.
And the other thing I wouldtell you is that, with AI allows
you to truly create much deeperprecision, even reporter by
reporter media outlet by mediaoutlet.
That then allows you, as amarketer or somebody who is
(08:46):
working for a marketer, to, ifyou have more precision, then
you have a much higherprobability of a successful
program.
So if you look at AI today andits ability to crunch data, its
ability to make recommendations,its ability to not think on its
own but to really understandyour voice or the voice of an
(09:06):
executive, it really gives youthe opportunity to create much
deeper precision, which thenleads to much better
predictability of success of apiece of content, of a program,
of a campaign.
Peter Woolfolk (09:18):
Well, I forget the names of them, but I do know
because I think I've had someguys who actually created some
of those programs where, if youhave a particular subject matter
that you want to talk about,their platforms can identify the
reporters and writers who coverthat particular platform.
So there's no scattershot there.
You can hone in on who thoseparticular reporters are.
(09:41):
It'll tell you if they got theinformation, if it was open to
that.
All of that kind of data isavailable to you if you're you
know, not only you know, but ifyou're in a company that wants
to reach a particular reporterand or publication, such as
newspapers and newsletters andTV reporters etc.
Michael Kempner (10:01):
Correct.
But it even goes way beyondthat.
It actually helps you developthe content, understand what
your audience wants to talkabout.
You know you can use predictiveanalytics to know a crisis two
weeks before it happens.
So you can understand what isthe likelihood of a piece of
content having virality to it,likelihood of a piece of content
(10:24):
being read by and shared byyour core audiences.
And again, even to what does X,y and Z reporter care about?
What do they want to talk about, what are they writing about,
and how do you even craft apitch or information that will
appeal reporter to reporter.
And then there's other veryuseful items Like.
(10:48):
One of my favorite examples isthat I needed to find
conservative criminal justicereporters on Substack.
Well, that if I went to one ofmy employees and said find me,
you know right-leaning criminaljustice reporters who, or
writers on Substack who writeabout criminal justice, that
(11:09):
would have taken them threemonths and using AI, you can get
that in three seconds well,needless to say, ai is just sort
of taken over.
Peter Woolfolk (11:18):
I mean it just I use it a lot on this uh, this
podcast.
I mean it does things for me.
I don't go about identifyingauditions, that that sort of
thing.
Mine is in preparation, youknow.
So this uh, the transcript fromthis uh podcast, will be
handled by ai.
It'll identify.
It won't identify the speakers.
It'll identify that we had twospeakers.
I just have to put the names inthere and go from there.
(11:39):
So AI, you know it's everywhere.
I've also used it to writteninformation that I can go from
what is a text to speech when Ineed to do those kinds of things
to fill in.
So there's so many differentplatforms to use.
I guess individuals have to bevery specific about what they
(11:59):
want their outcomes to be, whothey want to reach and how they
want to go about it.
Michael Kempner (12:03):
Right, and again what it can do today and
we have predictive analyticshere that I can actually tell
you that if we increase brandlove for your service or product
by 2%, how many more cases ofbeer you're going to sell, how
many more people are going towant to buy your product?
And then I can tell you how doyou increase your brand love.
(12:25):
What's the perception versusthe reality?
You might believe that you'vegot the best sustainability
program in the United States oron the planet, but I can tell
you that you may think that, butyou actually don't.
But the public doesn't believeyou.
So what do we need to do toincrease the believability of
(12:46):
how you talk aboutsustainability, which will then
go to brand love, which thengoes to selling more products?
So it is that granular andwe're only in the first inning
of AI.
Peter Woolfolk (12:59):
Do you happen to recall the names of some of
those platforms that you can useto do those things?
Michael Kempner (13:04):
We have our own platform here that we call
Prisma, that we use, that doesall of those things.
It's proprietary to ourorganization, but our main
public you know, news Whip is apublicly available platform that
does predictive analytics.
Meltwater, which is a tool thatfirms use to see and see the
(13:26):
success of some of theircampaigns but also helps you
identify the reporters, has atremendous amount of AI built
into it.
So almost any program you'reusing today that you've used in
the past, or tool or tool stackthat you've used in the past,
all have significant AI builtinto them now and they're adding
(13:49):
more and more and more almostweekly.
Again, here we have our ownproprietary Prisma platform that
really is based around how dowe do things for our clients
faster, cheaper, better and howdo we create more precision and
more predictability in ourrecommendations and more
predictability so marketers canfeel secure, or more secure,
(14:13):
that what we're recommendingwill be successful.
Peter Woolfolk (14:15):
Now, this applies to products of all kinds
, products and services of allkinds, I would imagine.
Michael Kempner (14:20):
Anything.
Peter Woolfolk (14:21):
So part of the I would say part of the
discussion in terms of beingsuccessful is that clients have
to know what they actually want,and my question to you, then,
is how precise are they inmaking defining what it is that
they're looking for?
Michael Kempner (14:42):
Most clients not all, but most clients are
behind where we are okay.
So part of it, part of it, istalk about all the time about
how do you teach clients aboutthings they didn't know they
need, and so and that's part ofour job is to introduce new ways
of building programs, new waysof creating success and helping
to bring your client along forthe journey, and so, again, they
may not know what they need, soit's our job to help them
(15:07):
understand the tools that areavailable today to make their
lives easier, to help them getmore value for their money and
to come closer.
You can't guarantee success,but come closer to guaranteeing
success.
Peter Woolfolk (15:24):
So do you also have an opportunity to work with
them where you have, let's say,cross platform campaigns, in
other words, various platformsto handle this particular part
of a campaign and anotherprogram to handle another part
of the campaign?
Michael Kempner (15:43):
Right, they could be segmented.
No, no, you go ahead.
I'm sorry you finish.
Peter Woolfolk (15:46):
No, I just wanted to say that you can use
multiple platforms to handledifferent parts of a campaign,
because that way there's moreprecision built into it.
Michael Kempner (15:55):
And the important part, at least for our
firm, is that most of ourcampaigns are integrated.
Again, some form of earned isthe tip of the spear, but earned
again thought leadership, whichwould be owned, and then
there's paid media involved,because, the way the algorithms
(16:17):
are set up, it's very hard toget virality unless you pay for
it.
So you have to take a look atall those things.
But the fact is, all of ourtools are integrated.
They all talk to each other,and so it may be separate tools
that have separate functions.
Instead of having to go to fivedifferent tools to do five
different activities, our toolsare integrated and speak with
(16:40):
each other, so it allows you tohave a more robust view of your
programs, your recommendationsand your audiences.
Peter Woolfolk (16:52):
Now I would imagine, as I listen to you say,
that then you also havemeasurement tools built into
that, so that once the campaignis over or in progress, let's
say that that information can bealso collected and provided
back to the client.
Michael Kempner (17:08):
I believe if you can't measure it, you
shouldn't do it so, and our firmbelieves that you can't measure
, so part of it is how do youset the metrics for success at
the beginning of a campaign, andthen we have the tools that
allow you to measure up againstthe metrics you set.
So, yes, measurement iscritical, and we use a series of
(17:33):
AI-fueled tools that are partof our overall tool stack to
make sure that we can measureour programs frankly, across 150
different categories, dependingon what are the core
measurement metrics that wereset up at the beginning of the
campaign.
Peter Woolfolk (17:54):
And I guess it's depending upon the campaign,
but is there a broad category ofwhat people are looking for in
terms of success?
It's great to say that, fine,yes, we had 10,000 readers or
10,000 participants, but whatI'm hearing you say is that, yes
, you did, and here's some moredetails, some more itemized
pieces, like how many women,what their ages were, those
(18:17):
kinds of things that can beadded to that well, again,
there's people.
Michael Kempner (18:22):
There's still plenty of clients and plenty of
people who you know.
Obviously, getting earned mediais critically important to them
I mean earned media is theultimate third-party validator
and that hasn't changed.
But again, is it the right mediato the right audience?
Are we trying to build brand sowe can measure brand and find
(18:45):
out whether we've enhanced thevalue of the brand?
Brand love?
Is it about driving people to awebsite?
Is it about increasing sales?
So there's a lot of differentobjectives.
So you set the objectives atthe beginning, so then you know
how to craft your campaign tohit and reach those objectives
(19:07):
and then you can measure those.
On the other side, butobviously our media has not gone
away and it's more criticalthan ever.
At the same time, legacy mediais going away, but there are.
Because of digital mediathere's the reach.
Might not be as broad, butthere's more places than ever to
(19:29):
place your clients or placeyour campaigns again to that
targeted audience.
So it might not be the reach ofthe New York Times, but you
might be hitting Gen Z women whocare about the environment in a
much more direct way thanyou're ever going to do that
through a broad-based article inthe New York Times or the Wall
(19:52):
Street Journal?
Peter Woolfolk (19:54):
What I'm also hearing here is that one of the
issues that has always been infront of PR people is dealing
with the C-suite, that there aretoo many people up on the top
floor that didn't fullyunderstand or appreciate public
relations With this kind ofinformation.
It's a good way of proving itsvalue to the C-suite folks
upstairs.
Would you agree with that?
Michael Kempner (20:15):
Yes, it's always been.
The challenge of PR versusadvertising is to be able to.
How do you measure it?
How do you measure value?
And that's the holy grail of PR.
How can you get an equal seatat the sweet C-seat table, along
with advertising and othermarketing services?
(20:36):
So these kind of activitiesallow you to help prove your
value, which can get you thatseat.
You know, the one place thatyou almost always have a seat
where again we use a significantamount of AI and predictive
analytics is around.
Crisis.
Crisis typically gets a seat atthe table, but other types of
(20:57):
marketing often don't, and soit's our job to be able to prove
our value.
So the C-suite sees us as anindispensable resource.
Peter Woolfolk (21:08):
You know, that's the thing.
I think that's one of the majorselling points for a lot of
these platforms, because, you'reabsolutely right, c-suite wants
to know you know, what's thevalue?
How do we know that it worked,how do you know how effective it
was, those kinds of things.
So there's a lot of value, notonly for what its actual
performance is.
There's a lot of value not onlyfor what its actual performance
(21:32):
is, but how you are viewed inthe scope of all the other
programs and departments in yourorganization, of course.
Michael Kempner (21:37):
I mean there's a tangible amount of money an
organization is going to spendon marketing, and so PR is
always a better value, just kindof.
If you measure it the same way,advertising measures itself.
I've never seen a scenariowhere PR did not provide much
(21:57):
deeper, much better value forthe dollar.
But again, you know, the CCgrew up in an environment where
you can measure advertisingbetter than you can measure PR,
where you can measureadvertising better than you can
measure PR.
But the reality is that ifwe're given the opportunity to
get in front of that C-suite, Ican measure it today in a way
(22:17):
that I couldn't in the past, andI can measure it today the same
way that advertising measuresthemselves and be able to show
the significant value we providefor the dollar relative to
other marketing services.
Peter Woolfolk (22:32):
Well, I think that's huge in terms of when
folks are always looking atbudgets, and particularly when
it comes time that they mighthave to trim some budgets.
Whose services in thisorganization do we value more or
as much, and how are we goingto make decisions from that?
So have being armed with thekind of information you're
(22:52):
providing to sweet sweet folksis hugely important, and I think
folks really need to payattention to that, if they're
not already yeah, again, I Iagree with that, and the fact is
that you know we believe inintegrated campaigns, so I'm not
going to suggest in all caseswe're more important than
advertising.
Michael Kempner (23:10):
In some cases advertising is more important
than us, but it's to understandthe audiences and the objectives
and then work backwards fromthere to decide which pieces of
an integrated campaign are themost important.
You know a full-service publicrelations firm.
Today we do almost everythingan advertising agency does.
(23:31):
You know it's influencer,social media, content, video,
experiential.
But it's really a question ofwhat's the tip of the spear Is
it earned media or is itadvertising?
Besides that, it's verydifficult in some cases to even
tell us apart from each other.
Peter Woolfolk (23:49):
Well, mike, you've given us a lot to
consider here today.
Is there anything that we mayhave missed in terms of better
understanding of the socialmedia and the changes that take
place, and how to best managethose?
Michael Kempner (24:03):
No, I think I appreciate your questions, I
appreciate your insight, havevaluable insight into this
conversation that firms aregoing through right now.
You know you layer on top ofthe chaos and some of the
uncertainty in the economy andsociety today.
(24:25):
Being able to really understandwho your audiences are and
speak directly to them has neverbeen more important.
Peter Woolfolk (24:32):
Well, I certainly agree with you there
and let me say thank you so very, very much to you.
My guest today has been MikeKempner.
He is the CEO of Mike Worldwide.
He joined us today from NewYork City.
So, Mike, thank you once againfor being a guest on the Public
Relations Review podcast.
Michael Kempner (24:48):
Well, thanks so much, and I also want to
thank Gabby Gaines from my stafffor bringing us together,
because obviously you're only asgood as your team, and so I
appreciate my team and Iappreciate you today, and I look
forward to talking again in thefuture.
Peter Woolfolk (25:04):
And say thank you again.
Announcer (25:05):
And to my listeners, let me say thank you for
listening and please join usagain for the next edition of
the Public Relations ReviewPodcast.
This podcast is produced byCommunication Strategies, an
award-winning public relationsand public affairs firm
headquartered in Nashville,Tennessee.
Thank you for joining us.
Welcome.
This is the Public RelationsReview Podcast, a program to
discuss the many facets ofpublic relations with seasoned
professionals, educators,authors and others.
Now here is your host, peterWoolfolk.
Peter Woolfolk (00:25):
Welcome to the Public Relations Review Podcast
and to our listeners all acrossAmerica and around the world.
Now, apple has ranked thispodcast among the top 1% of
podcasts worldwide and recentlyFeedspot listed this podcast as
number 13 on its top 70 bestpublic relations podcasts in the
United States.
So thank you to all of ourguests and listeners for your
(00:48):
continued support and if youenjoy the podcast, please leave
a review.
Now question for the audienceWith the continued evolution of
public relations, how can brandsbreak through, considering the
ever-changing media landscape?
Well, my guest today has ananswer for you.
He is the founder of MikeWorldwide, one of the largest
(01:08):
independent public relationsfirm, with offices in New York
City, new Jersey, los Angeles,london and Mexico City.
He has also counseled some ofthe world's most prominent
executives and brands Outside ofMike Worldwide.
He was also active in thepresidential campaigns of Barack
Obama, hillary Clinton and JoeBiden.
(01:29):
So joining me today from NewYork City is Michael Kempner,
ceo of Mike Worldwide.
Mike, welcome to the podcast.
Michael Kempner (01:37):
Well, thanks so much for having me here.
Peter Woolfolk (01:39):
Well, let's talk about just what are some of
those changes taking place inthe media, and how does one go
about developing strategies tomaximize the benefits of using
them.
Michael Kempner (01:50):
Well, thank you for the question.
It is a great question, onethat we work on every day, with
the rapid change in the media.
But there are a few, I think,core issues that are happening
today that are very important ifyou're thinking about putting
together a public relationsstrategy, One, it's really.
(02:11):
You know, today you can designmedia strategies that are very
audience-centric.
You know, when I started, itwas a much more broad-brushed
approach.
You know, there wasn't a greatway to really target in on who
you're speaking with.
You would do it more,publication by publication, but
have the similar, same messagesfor a broad stroke, an important
(02:33):
, broad group of people, and youreally couldn't even measure
the impact you're having.
But today you can do all that.
So if you think about designingyour strategy with your
audience in mind and what weused to call stakeholders, you
can be very specific in bothyour content and your channel
(02:54):
distribution.
So if you think about mediatoday, it's really about channel
distribution, and some of thebig changes that have happened
is, for instance, if you look atmedia consumption studies, if
you're a Gen Z, you're notreading the Wall Street Journal
or the New York Times.
(03:15):
All of your news is coming fromsome digital format.
You know we've heard aboutTikTok and Instagram, but there
are literally hundreds of places, if not thousands of places,
where the vast majority ofAmericans are finding the news.
To give you an example, cablenews in total doesn't reach much
(03:38):
more than a million or twomillion people a night, where
podcasts such as this, youtubeshows other newsletters, other
digital means, are reaching tensof millions of people.
So it's not to suggest thatlegacy media is dead or
unimportant, but it really is tosuggest to understand your
(04:02):
audience and understand thecontent and challenge
distribution so you can impactthem to whatever action you know
buy a product, enhance yourreputation, join your
organization, whatever it may be.
And the other important piece isyou know what we call here the
(04:23):
new top tier piece is you knowwhat we call here the new top
tier If you really look at themedia that people consume during
the life cycle of their day.
So what do they look at whenthey get up in the morning?
What do they look at on theircommute to work?
What do they?
look at during the day, whenthey're bored on a conference
call?
What do they look at on the wayhome?
(04:43):
What do they look at before bed?
And so there is a real lifecycle of each of us, and so how
do you create strategies thatwill have an impact on the full
life cycle of what we, again,what we call the new top tier?
Peter Woolfolk (05:03):
So, basically, what I'm hearing you say in the
beginning is here.
One is social media, to put itin a broad scope, because,
you're absolutely right, TikTokand Twitter and LinkedIn I mean
those have their followers.
The other thing which can, whenwe talk about this, is, as you
said, knowing your audience.
Then you can have your ownpodcast or your own blogs or
(05:24):
your own video content, becausethen you can say what it is you
want to say, how you want to sayit to the audience that you've
identified, that you want toreach.
Are those some of the ways ofgoing about that?
Michael Kempner (05:34):
I mean again, it goes beyond social media.
I would actually make itbroader digital media.
I mean if you're a farmer oryou're a conservative or you're
somebody of faith or you live inNew York, it's not likely
you're looking at that samemedia when you wake up in the
(05:55):
morning.
There are very specific nichepublications that are geared
towards you and your interests.
That are geared towards you andyour interests and we've also
passed the stage of where youactually go to find your news.
Your news is delivered to you.
It's much more of a pushenvironment Newsletters you
(06:18):
signed up for, breaking alertsor other websites, whether
you're on Blue Sky or X orThreads.
I mean you are curating yourown news environment, which both
is potential, both has gotpositives and negatives.
But you know, gone are the daythat you're going to the site,
(06:47):
the site and the news comes toyou.
Peter Woolfolk (06:52):
So looking at it the other way, is that one you
can have your own media, yourblogs and so forth, because
you've identified that audience,but you also need to know
enough about that audience toknow where they also other
places that they go to toconsume media and get
information.
Michael Kempner (07:09):
So part of but even having I'm sorry, I'm not
going to throw up, but evenhaving your own media and your
own podcast.
You know it takes a while todevelop a money.
Peter Woolfolk (07:18):
Right, oh, absolutely.
Michael Kempner (07:19):
So are you looking for a broad reach?
Then you might be better offparticipating.
Like you know, I don't have myown podcast.
You reach much more.
If I started one tomorrow, Iwouldn't have your reach.
Maybe you know a year or twofrom now I might, so again I it
goes back to there's so manydifferent potential distribution
channels.
What are those that are goingto give you the highest return?
(07:41):
and again, we do live in anearned, owned, owned, paid world
.
So some of this comes throughpaid media and a lot of it comes
through owned.
So you have your own channel,but major corporations have
their own channels.
They thought leadership.
I mean, most people don't knowthat LinkedIn has a bigger
readership than the New YorkTimes or the Wall Street Journal
(08:01):
, and so one could argueLinkedIn's the most important
media outlet if you're trying tofind an executive or a B2B, but
probably not with Gen Z or GenAlpha.
So it really depends.
Again back to beingaudience-centric, but you have
the opportunity to really, ifyou really understand your
(08:22):
audience, to pinpoint the mediaand the content that's going to
be on it.
And the other thing I wouldtell you is that, with AI allows
you to truly create much deeperprecision, even reporter by
reporter media outlet by mediaoutlet.
That then allows you, as amarketer or somebody who is
(08:46):
working for a marketer, to, ifyou have more precision, then
you have a much higherprobability of a successful
program.
So if you look at AI today andits ability to crunch data, its
ability to make recommendations,its ability to not think on its
own but to really understandyour voice or the voice of an
(09:06):
executive, it really gives youthe opportunity to create much
deeper precision, which thenleads to much better
predictability of success of apiece of content, of a program,
of a campaign.
Peter Woolfolk (09:18):
Well, I forget the names of them, but I do know
because I think I've had someguys who actually created some
of those programs where, if youhave a particular subject matter
that you want to talk about,their platforms can identify the
reporters and writers who coverthat particular platform.
So there's no scattershot there.
You can hone in on who thoseparticular reporters are.
(09:41):
It'll tell you if they got theinformation, if it was open to
that.
All of that kind of data isavailable to you if you're you
know, not only you know, but ifyou're in a company that wants
to reach a particular reporterand or publication, such as
newspapers and newsletters andTV reporters etc.
Michael Kempner (10:01):
Correct.
But it even goes way beyondthat.
It actually helps you developthe content, understand what
your audience wants to talkabout.
You know you can use predictiveanalytics to know a crisis two
weeks before it happens.
So you can understand what isthe likelihood of a piece of
content having virality to it,likelihood of a piece of content
(10:24):
being read by and shared byyour core audiences.
And again, even to what does X,y and Z reporter care about?
What do they want to talk about, what are they writing about,
and how do you even craft apitch or information that will
appeal reporter to reporter.
And then there's other veryuseful items Like.
(10:48):
One of my favorite examples isthat I needed to find
conservative criminal justicereporters on Substack.
Well, that if I went to one ofmy employees and said find me,
you know right-leaning criminaljustice reporters who, or
writers on Substack who writeabout criminal justice, that
(11:09):
would have taken them threemonths and using AI, you can get
that in three seconds well,needless to say, ai is just sort
of taken over.
Peter Woolfolk (11:18):
I mean it just I use it a lot on this uh, this
podcast.
I mean it does things for me.
I don't go about identifyingauditions, that that sort of
thing.
Mine is in preparation, youknow.
So this uh, the transcript fromthis uh podcast, will be
handled by ai.
It'll identify.
It won't identify the speakers.
It'll identify that we had twospeakers.
I just have to put the names inthere and go from there.
(11:39):
So AI, you know it's everywhere.
I've also used it to writteninformation that I can go from
what is a text to speech when Ineed to do those kinds of things
to fill in.
So there's so many differentplatforms to use.
I guess individuals have to bevery specific about what they
(11:59):
want their outcomes to be, whothey want to reach and how they
want to go about it.
Michael Kempner (12:03):
Right, and again what it can do today and
we have predictive analyticshere that I can actually tell
you that if we increase brandlove for your service or product
by 2%, how many more cases ofbeer you're going to sell, how
many more people are going towant to buy your product?
And then I can tell you how doyou increase your brand love.
(12:25):
What's the perception versusthe reality?
You might believe that you'vegot the best sustainability
program in the United States oron the planet, but I can tell
you that you may think that, butyou actually don't.
But the public doesn't believeyou.
So what do we need to do toincrease the believability of
(12:46):
how you talk aboutsustainability, which will then
go to brand love, which thengoes to selling more products?
So it is that granular andwe're only in the first inning
of AI.
Peter Woolfolk (12:59):
Do you happen to recall the names of some of
those platforms that you can useto do those things?
Michael Kempner (13:04):
We have our own platform here that we call
Prisma, that we use, that doesall of those things.
It's proprietary to ourorganization, but our main
public you know, news Whip is apublicly available platform that
does predictive analytics.
Meltwater, which is a tool thatfirms use to see and see the
(13:26):
success of some of theircampaigns but also helps you
identify the reporters, has atremendous amount of AI built
into it.
So almost any program you'reusing today that you've used in
the past, or tool or tool stackthat you've used in the past,
all have significant AI builtinto them now and they're adding
(13:49):
more and more and more almostweekly.
Again, here we have our ownproprietary Prisma platform that
really is based around how dowe do things for our clients
faster, cheaper, better and howdo we create more precision and
more predictability in ourrecommendations and more
predictability so marketers canfeel secure, or more secure,
(14:13):
that what we're recommendingwill be successful.
Peter Woolfolk (14:15):
Now, this applies to products of all kinds
, products and services of allkinds, I would imagine.
Michael Kempner (14:20):
Anything.
Peter Woolfolk (14:21):
So part of the I would say part of the
discussion in terms of beingsuccessful is that clients have
to know what they actually want,and my question to you, then,
is how precise are they inmaking defining what it is that
they're looking for?
Michael Kempner (14:42):
Most clients not all, but most clients are
behind where we are okay.
So part of it, part of it, istalk about all the time about
how do you teach clients aboutthings they didn't know they
need, and so and that's part ofour job is to introduce new ways
of building programs, new waysof creating success and helping
to bring your client along forthe journey, and so, again, they
may not know what they need, soit's our job to help them
(15:07):
understand the tools that areavailable today to make their
lives easier, to help them getmore value for their money and
to come closer.
You can't guarantee success,but come closer to guaranteeing
success.
Peter Woolfolk (15:24):
So do you also have an opportunity to work with
them where you have, let's say,cross platform campaigns, in
other words, various platformsto handle this particular part
of a campaign and anotherprogram to handle another part
of the campaign?
Michael Kempner (15:43):
Right, they could be segmented.
No, no, you go ahead.
I'm sorry you finish.
Peter Woolfolk (15:46):
No, I just wanted to say that you can use
multiple platforms to handledifferent parts of a campaign,
because that way there's moreprecision built into it.
Michael Kempner (15:55):
And the important part, at least for our
firm, is that most of ourcampaigns are integrated.
Again, some form of earned isthe tip of the spear, but earned
again thought leadership, whichwould be owned, and then
there's paid media involved,because, the way the algorithms
(16:17):
are set up, it's very hard toget virality unless you pay for
it.
So you have to take a look atall those things.
But the fact is, all of ourtools are integrated.
They all talk to each other,and so it may be separate tools
that have separate functions.
Instead of having to go to fivedifferent tools to do five
different activities, our toolsare integrated and speak with
(16:40):
each other, so it allows you tohave a more robust view of your
programs, your recommendationsand your audiences.
Peter Woolfolk (16:52):
Now I would imagine, as I listen to you say,
that then you also havemeasurement tools built into
that, so that once the campaignis over or in progress, let's
say that that information can bealso collected and provided
back to the client.
Michael Kempner (17:08):
I believe if you can't measure it, you
shouldn't do it so, and our firmbelieves that you can't measure
, so part of it is how do youset the metrics for success at
the beginning of a campaign, andthen we have the tools that
allow you to measure up againstthe metrics you set.
So, yes, measurement iscritical, and we use a series of
(17:33):
AI-fueled tools that are partof our overall tool stack to
make sure that we can measureour programs frankly, across 150
different categories, dependingon what are the core
measurement metrics that wereset up at the beginning of the
campaign.
Peter Woolfolk (17:54):
And I guess it's depending upon the campaign,
but is there a broad category ofwhat people are looking for in
terms of success?
It's great to say that, fine,yes, we had 10,000 readers or
10,000 participants, but whatI'm hearing you say is that, yes
, you did, and here's some moredetails, some more itemized
pieces, like how many women,what their ages were, those
(18:17):
kinds of things that can beadded to that well, again,
there's people.
Michael Kempner (18:22):
There's still plenty of clients and plenty of
people who you know.
Obviously, getting earned mediais critically important to them
I mean earned media is theultimate third-party validator
and that hasn't changed.
But again, is it the right mediato the right audience?
Are we trying to build brand sowe can measure brand and find
(18:45):
out whether we've enhanced thevalue of the brand?
Brand love?
Is it about driving people to awebsite?
Is it about increasing sales?
So there's a lot of differentobjectives.
So you set the objectives atthe beginning, so then you know
how to craft your campaign tohit and reach those objectives
(19:07):
and then you can measure those.
On the other side, butobviously our media has not gone
away and it's more criticalthan ever.
At the same time, legacy mediais going away, but there are.
Because of digital mediathere's the reach.
Might not be as broad, butthere's more places than ever to
(19:29):
place your clients or placeyour campaigns again to that
targeted audience.
So it might not be the reach ofthe New York Times, but you
might be hitting Gen Z women whocare about the environment in a
much more direct way thanyou're ever going to do that
through a broad-based article inthe New York Times or the Wall
(19:52):
Street Journal?
Peter Woolfolk (19:54):
What I'm also hearing here is that one of the
issues that has always been infront of PR people is dealing
with the C-suite, that there aretoo many people up on the top
floor that didn't fullyunderstand or appreciate public
relations With this kind ofinformation.
It's a good way of proving itsvalue to the C-suite folks
upstairs.
Would you agree with that?
Michael Kempner (20:15):
Yes, it's always been.
The challenge of PR versusadvertising is to be able to.
How do you measure it?
How do you measure value?
And that's the holy grail of PR.
How can you get an equal seatat the sweet C-seat table, along
with advertising and othermarketing services?
(20:36):
So these kind of activitiesallow you to help prove your
value, which can get you thatseat.
You know, the one place thatyou almost always have a seat
where again we use a significantamount of AI and predictive
analytics is around.
Crisis.
Crisis typically gets a seat atthe table, but other types of
(20:57):
marketing often don't, and soit's our job to be able to prove
our value.
So the C-suite sees us as anindispensable resource.
Peter Woolfolk (21:08):
You know, that's the thing.
I think that's one of the majorselling points for a lot of
these platforms, because, you'reabsolutely right, c-suite wants
to know you know, what's thevalue?
How do we know that it worked,how do you know how effective it
was, those kinds of things.
So there's a lot of value, notonly for what its actual
performance is.
There's a lot of value not onlyfor what its actual performance
(21:32):
is, but how you are viewed inthe scope of all the other
programs and departments in yourorganization, of course.
Michael Kempner (21:37):
I mean there's a tangible amount of money an
organization is going to spendon marketing, and so PR is
always a better value, just kindof.
If you measure it the same way,advertising measures itself.
I've never seen a scenariowhere PR did not provide much
(21:57):
deeper, much better value forthe dollar.
But again, you know, the CCgrew up in an environment where
you can measure advertisingbetter than you can measure PR,
where you can measureadvertising better than you can
measure PR.
But the reality is that ifwe're given the opportunity to
get in front of that C-suite, Ican measure it today in a way
(22:17):
that I couldn't in the past, andI can measure it today the same
way that advertising measuresthemselves and be able to show
the significant value we providefor the dollar relative to
other marketing services.
Peter Woolfolk (22:32):
Well, I think that's huge in terms of when
folks are always looking atbudgets, and particularly when
it comes time that they mighthave to trim some budgets.
Whose services in thisorganization do we value more or
as much, and how are we goingto make decisions from that?
So have being armed with thekind of information you're
(22:52):
providing to sweet sweet folksis hugely important, and I think
folks really need to payattention to that, if they're
not already yeah, again, I Iagree with that, and the fact is
that you know we believe inintegrated campaigns, so I'm not
going to suggest in all caseswe're more important than
advertising.
Michael Kempner (23:10):
In some cases advertising is more important
than us, but it's to understandthe audiences and the objectives
and then work backwards fromthere to decide which pieces of
an integrated campaign are themost important.
You know a full-service publicrelations firm.
Today we do almost everythingan advertising agency does.
(23:31):
You know it's influencer,social media, content, video,
experiential.
But it's really a question ofwhat's the tip of the spear Is
it earned media or is itadvertising?
Besides that, it's verydifficult in some cases to even
tell us apart from each other.
Peter Woolfolk (23:49):
Well, mike, you've given us a lot to
consider here today.
Is there anything that we mayhave missed in terms of better
understanding of the socialmedia and the changes that take
place, and how to best managethose?
Michael Kempner (24:03):
No, I think I appreciate your questions, I
appreciate your insight, havevaluable insight into this
conversation that firms aregoing through right now.
You know you layer on top ofthe chaos and some of the
uncertainty in the economy andsociety today.
(24:25):
Being able to really understandwho your audiences are and
speak directly to them has neverbeen more important.
Peter Woolfolk (24:32):
Well, I certainly agree with you there
and let me say thank you so very, very much to you.
My guest today has been MikeKempner.
He is the CEO of Mike Worldwide.
He joined us today from NewYork City.
So, Mike, thank you once againfor being a guest on the Public
Relations Review podcast.
Michael Kempner (24:48):
Well, thanks so much, and I also want to
thank Gabby Gaines from my stafffor bringing us together,
because obviously you're only asgood as your team, and so I
appreciate my team and Iappreciate you today, and I look
forward to talking again in thefuture.
Peter Woolfolk (25:04):
And say thank you again.
Announcer (25:05):
And to my listeners, let me say thank you for
listening and please join usagain for the next edition of
the Public Relations ReviewPodcast.
This podcast is produced byCommunication Strategies, an
award-winning public relationsand public affairs firm
headquartered in Nashville,Tennessee.
Thank you for joining us.
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