January 13, 2025 • 37 mins
Original broadcast date: April 18, 2022. Unlock the secrets to effectively engaging with the Asian American market as host Peter Woolfolk talks with with Dr. Michael Soon-Lee, president of EthnoConnect. Dr. Soon-Lee brings his wealth of knowledge on cultural sensitivity and targeted marketing, offering insights into the diverse tapestry of Asian communities in the U.S. Learn how to navigate the nuances of personal interactions and generational cultural shifts to build genuine and respectful connections. From personal space preferences to the metaphorical "melting pot" versus "salad" of cultural integration, this episode promises to equip you with the tools needed to create marketing strategies that resonate deeply with Asian consumers.
Discover the roadmap to brand loyalty within Asian communities by committing to long-term engagement and understanding the power of word-of-mouth. We emphasize the critical role of quality, family-oriented messaging over individualism, highlighting how different generations trust influencers and community leaders differently. Whether you're interested in leveraging social media personalities or tapping into the guidance of family heads, our conversation sheds light on fostering trust and credibility in marketing efforts. With Dr. Soon-Lee's practical advice, you'll gain the confidence to invest in research and authentic communication strategies that truly connect with this dynamic and growing market segment.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Peter Woolfolk (00:25):
Welcome to the Public Relations Review Podcast
and to our listeners all acrossAmerica and around the world.
By now, we all know that thecomposition of the US population
is changing and, as PR andmarketing people, we need to
understand this growth and howto best reach the market and
these varying populationsegments.
Now, according to Pew Research,the nation's Asian population
(00:52):
rose to 22.4 million in 2019.
Asians now make up about 7% ofthe US population.
Now there are about 20different Asian groups in
America.
In America, chinese Americansare the largest Asian group,
making up 24% of the populationat about 5.4 million.
The next two largest groups areIndian Americans, who account
(01:13):
for 21%, or about 4.6 million,and Filipinos, who account for
19%, at 4.2 million.
Now, in descending order areVietnamese at 2.2 million,
koreans at 1.9 million andJapanese at 1.5 million
population.
The other groups account for12% of the US Asian population,
(01:34):
totaling about 2.7 million.
So why is this important.
My guest today can answer thatquestion in detail and what you
absolutely must know before youcan penetrate the Asian American
market.
So joining me today from Dublin, california, is Dr Michael
Soon-Lee, president ofEthnoConnect.
Now, ethnoconnect providesseminars, training, consulting
(01:57):
and coaching on how to sell moreproducts and services to Asian
Americans.
He has been a college professor, the marketing director for the
state of California and aproducer for ABC television
network.
He has written numerous booksand has spoken on this matter
around the world, and now he'son our podcast.
Michael, thank you so much forjoining us today.
Michael Soon-Lee (02:19):
It's my pleasure, Peter.
Thank you for having me.
Peter Woolfolk (02:22):
Well, now that we've read that introduction,
what is the number one reasonthat we should want to market to
the Asian American community?
Michael Soon-Lee (02:31):
Well, Peter, as you mentioned, Asians are
growing rapidly 7% of the USpopulation and growing rapidly
but the main reason is Asians inAmerica have the highest median
income.
In 2020, the Asian averagemedian income was $94,900,
(02:55):
compared to white non-Hispanicat about $75,000, Hispanics at
$55,000, and blacks at about $55,000 and Blacks at about
46,000.
, so you're talking about arapidly growing and very high
income group.
They have money to buy, Peter.
Peter Woolfolk (03:17):
Well, that certainly really causes you to
pay attention.
So now you also say that thereare some absolute differences,
that one must learn about theAsian groups before they can be
attracted to marketing efforts.
So, let's go down that list ofwhat those absolutes are.
Michael Soon-Lee (03:34):
Well, I think, as you mentioned early on,
peter, the first thing you'vegot to understand is Asians are
not one big, happy family.
You mentioned the fact thatthere are Chinese as the largest
group, then you have AsianIndians and Filipinos, and all
of the 20-plus groups are very,very different.
(03:56):
They all have differentlanguages, different foods,
different religions, you name it.
They are very different.
In fact, they don't all getalong.
My mother, when I was in highschool and beginning to date,
she said don't you ever bring aJapanese girl into this house?
And I said, mom, we're Chinese,japanese, look just like us.
(04:19):
She said absolutely not.
No, they don't.
And during World War II theJapanese were very cruel to the
Chinese.
Don't you ever bring a Japanesegirl into this house.
So, peter, what nationality doyou think was the first girl I
brought home?
She was Japanese, but you knowwe are very different groups.
(04:46):
So, as I mentioned, just forexample, you know Asians in
general have the highest medianincome, but we also have the
highest poverty rates amongst,for example, the Bhutanese,
which are Southeast Asians.
They have the highest povertyrate of any group in the United
States.
(05:07):
So the first thing you want todo if you're trying to market to
the Asian population is tofigure out specifically which
Asian group are you trying toreach, which Asian group has the
most potential for your productor service.
And then you want to learnabout that group again.
(05:28):
You know what, what is theirfavorite food, what?
uh, you know what do theybelieve in, what holidays do
they celebrate and those kindsof things, because each group is
so very different but, one ofthe things we've got to
understand when we're marketingis, unfortunately, in the first
(05:50):
30 seconds, most untrainedmarketers and salespeople who
are trying to reach the Asiancommunity or the Asian market is
that unfortunately, in thefirst 30 seconds, if you're not
trained, you willunintentionally insult an Asian
customer at least three times inthe first 30 seconds.
Peter Woolfolk (06:14):
Well, let's talk specifically about what those
things are that could cause thatsort of an insult.
Michael Soon-Lee (06:19):
Well, it depends on whether you're
meeting them in person or you'remarketing to them through the
media.
But let's just take you know.
If you're meeting someone forthe first time in a store, on
their doorstep, as a salesperson, what's the first thing we're
taught to do as salespeople?
Peter?
Peter Woolfolk (06:40):
Basically extend your hand and say hello.
Michael Soon-Lee (06:43):
Absolutely, basically extend your hand and
say hello, absolutely.
But in the new global world andit's true not just for asians
but for a lot of differentcultural groups around the world
you do not want to extend yourhand to shake it.
Because just to touch ajapanese woman, a traditional
japanese woman, a traditionalasian Indian woman, a
(07:07):
traditional Middle Eastern woman, you would absolutely insult
not only her but her husband,her family, her religion and her
culture to try and even touchher, because in those cultures
the only people who are allowedto touch them in any way, shape
(07:29):
or form are their spouse orfamily members, and that's it.
So the question then becomes ifyou're meeting someone in
person, how do you meet an Asianor someone who normally doesn't
shake hands or would feeluncomfortable shaking hands?
And the answer, Peter, is yougreet them verbally Hi, I'm
(07:56):
Michael Lee, Welcome to ourstore.
And then you hesitate for amoment and see what they do
first.
What kind of greeting do theyfeel comfortable?
Obviously, if they'recomfortable in shaking hands,
the man is going to put his handout.
Go ahead and shake it.
Probably the woman won't dothat.
(08:17):
But if the man doesn't put hishand out now, what do you do?
He's probably just going to nodto you, which is sort of the
modern version of bowing, whichhas been done for thousands of
years.
But the modern version now isjust to kind of nod to show you
respect, sort of a half bow.
(08:39):
And what do we do?
We do exactly what they do.
If they bow to us or nod to us,we do the same.
And then we turn to the woman.
Don't put your hand out, Seewhat she does.
She will most likely bow to youor nod to you and you just do
(08:59):
the same.
And that's true not just withAsians, but any cultural group
around the world these days.
Just do what they do.
And, Peter, isn't that theultimate in good customer
service?
Doing what's comfortable forthe customer, not what's
comfortable for us?
Peter Woolfolk (09:17):
You know I certainly agree with that.
I'm hearing you say right nowis the very first thing you need
to do is understand what groupyou're dealing with and
understand what the culture ofthat group is, so that you don't
have a major snafu on yourhands at the initial greeting.
Michael Soon-Lee (09:40):
Yeah, and actually you don't.
Even people born in the US grewup in the US many generations
back.
They may not feel comfortablein shaking hands, and it's not
just because of COVID A lot offolks in the South they don't
feel comfortable in shakinghands.
They would prefer just to againjust nod at you or smile at you
(10:04):
.
Prefer just to again just nodat you or smile at you.
So how do you know how anybodywants to be greeted these days?
Instead of assuming, justintroduce yourself and observe
and see what they do first andthen just do the same.
(10:24):
Watch and observe, watch andobserve.
But with.
Asians.
One of the things you got towatch out for is eye contact in
America, peter.
What does good, strong eyecontact mean to us?
Peter Woolfolk (10:38):
Confidence is certainly one of them.
Michael Soon-Lee (10:40):
And honesty too right, and paying attention
and showing respect.
That's what we believe inAmerica, but in many Asian
cultures, particularly theJapanese culture, some Chinese
cultures and many NativeAmerican cultures, they don't
(11:01):
look you in the eye out ofrespect for you, but for
Americans, man, that is souncomfortable.
We're trying to get good,strong eye contact and they're
looking away.
Just be comfortable with it andrecognize this is what they are
comfortable with and just dothe same.
(11:22):
Just look down, look awaywherever they're looking, but
just don't try to get eyecontact, because they can feel
you try to look at them and it'sgoing to make them feel very
uncomfortable and that couldactually ruin your whole
relationship from the beginning.
If you don't give them the samelevel of eye contact they give
(11:45):
you, or if you try and shaketheir hand and they don't want
it Again, you're going to betrying to recover from that for
I don't know how long, but itcould really make your
relationship very uncomfortablefrom the very start.
Peter Woolfolk (12:04):
You know, this is some very, very important
information.
So let's keep on with thisbecause, as I said, I had no
idea, and I'm sure most of ourlisteners don't.
So let's keep going with someof the other things we need to
be aware of.
Michael Soon-Lee (12:17):
Well, personal space is very personal to us,
and in America we like to standabout two and a half to three
feet apart when we're talking tosomeone we're not really very
familiar with yet.
And so in America we shakehands, we drop our hands, we're
standing about two and a halffeet apart, and that tends to be
(12:39):
our comfortable personal spacedistance.
But in many Asian cultures theyare much more formal.
The Japanese people will nod orbow to you and then they will
take a step back because theylike a lot of personal space.
(13:01):
In fact, japanese probably wantthe most personal space of any
group in the world.
The problem with that is, foran American, when a Japanese
person steps back into a morecomfortable personal space, for
them that's now like the GrandCanyon to us.
(13:22):
So what do you think, peter, isour natural tendency?
When a space opens up like thatand that's not comfortable for
us, what do we do?
Peter Woolfolk (13:35):
Something tells me we might want to step closer
to them.
Michael Soon-Lee (13:39):
Absolutely.
That's more comfortable for us,but then that violates the
Japanese person's personal space.
So now, what do they do, peter?
Peter Woolfolk (13:49):
Shift into reverse again.
Michael Soon-Lee (13:52):
They step back , we step forward.
We chase them all over the room, and do you think that's
comfortable for the Japaneseperson?
Peter Woolfolk (14:03):
Probably not very.
Michael Soon-Lee (14:05):
Why are you following me?
I want more personal space.
It's what we would consider inAmerica close talking and we
hate that.
And the Japanese hate peoplethat close up their personal
space as well.
And it's a funny thing to kindof watch.
(14:26):
At a party or a networkingmeeting You'll watch a Japanese
person slowly backing up awayfrom the hors d'oeuvre table and
all of a sudden you know theAmerican will follow them and
eventually they'll be 15 feetaway against a wall.
It's hilarious and yet it'ssomewhat sad because you can see
(14:48):
that relationship is not goinganywhere.
Peter Woolfolk (14:52):
Well, let me ask a quick question then because
is there a difference in thesecultures depending upon the age
of the person we're talkingabout?
Because we've got a lot of,let's say, japanese students
that are here going to schooland so forth and so on, and
maybe just out of school.
How do they observe thosecultural differences there?
Michael Soon-Lee (15:15):
Well, it's not necessarily age, Peter, it's
what generation are you dealingwith?
Okay, so the first generationof any group Asian, hispanic,
black, it doesn't matter.
The first generation who comesto the United States is the
(15:36):
first generation, and they'rethe ones that have the most
beliefs and we should talk aboutcultural beliefs in a minute
but they're the ones that arethe most uncomfortable with the
American culture, the Englishlanguage, and they're the ones
that are most sensitive to thesecultural differences.
(15:56):
The second generation are thefirst generation to be born in
the United States.
These are Americans and theytend to be bilingual because
they learn the language of theirancestors from their parents,
but they also learn English inthe school, so they tend to make
(16:16):
good interpreters, but theytend to have less of the beliefs
and cultural attributes oftheir parents.
The first generation, the nextgeneration, are the children of
the people born here, so theyare third generation and beyond.
So as you become acculturatedto the United States, you have
(16:41):
less and less of these culturalbeliefs and affects.
But when that goes away, nobodyknows, because culture runs
very, very deep.
In the old days, peter, you mayremember we were taught that
when immigrants come to theUnited States it was like a
(17:04):
melting pot and we allcontributed our culture, but we
all became Americans.
We became one big stew culture,but we all became Americans.
We became one big stew.
But today cultures tend to hangon to their language and their
beliefs and their food muchlonger.
So today we are more like asalad, where you can see all the
(17:28):
wonderful ingredients and it'sa wonderful meal.
But you can still see thetomatoes and the carrots and the
individual components, but itall comes together to make a
really delicious meal.
But again, it depends on howlong they've been here.
So if you're dealing with astudent who's been in this
(17:51):
country for five or 10 years,they're going to have less
cultural impact and they'regoing to be more aware that
Americans behave this way, thattheir culture and the way they
did things was the norm.
(18:19):
You need to be very sensitive asa marketer, as a salesperson.
So if you're marketing toAsians, number one thing you've
got to do is, in your ads, showAsians.
But again it comes back, peter,to.
You've got to know whichculture.
(18:40):
Because if you're trying tomarket to the Japanese, you
better not show Chinese people,because they can tell Most
people can't, but Asians cantell the difference.
By looking at another Asian,they can tell Whether you're
Chinese, japanese, korean,filipino.
(19:00):
They can tell, and they cansometimes tell which generation
you are.
So number one use Asian images,use the right ones and be sure
that you know how they use yourproduct or service so that it's
(19:21):
in the right context, becauseotherwise Asians will totally
ignore ads that number one,don't have Asians in them and
number two, don't have thespecific group that they are.
Peter Woolfolk (19:36):
You know this brings up an interesting point.
Then it sounds to me that if infact, I've got a PR firm or a
marketing firm that wants toreach an Asian group, I should
have someone from that groupright in the center of my team
that's putting this marketingcampaign together.
Because these are the thingsI'm going to call them
(19:58):
subtleties that most folks maynot pick up unless they've been
around a particular asian groupfor a long, long time yeah, and
you want to have more than justone, peter, because that one may
not be consistent with thegroup that you're trying to
reach.
Michael Soon-Lee (20:16):
So, for example, if you're trying to
reach new immigrant ChineseAmericans and you had me on your
team, I would have not a clueabout immigrant Chinese and
their needs and their wants andtheir relationship to your
product, because I'm fifthgeneration.
(20:37):
My ancestors came here in 1855and I speak no Chinese.
Thanks to the California publicschool system, peter, I speak
Spanish.
So, I'm not going to be veryhelpful, but I can help you with
(20:58):
Asian Americans because that'swho I am, that's my level of
expertise.
So you've got to be very, verycareful and recognize that
amongst Asians there can bedifferent dialects of different
languages.
If you're trying to do a printad, if you're trying to do
(21:21):
voiceover that has Chinese in it, for example, you know my
ancestors came from China andthey all spoke Cantonese.
But the new immigrants thesedays coming from mainland China,
they almost all speak Mandarinand they're not very compatible.
(21:42):
So you've got to knowspecifically and there are
village dialects of Mandarin.
It just depends on who you'retrying to reach.
So working with a multicultural, really aware and really expert
advertising agency whospecializes in that particular
(22:05):
group is really essential.
Peter Woolfolk (22:09):
Well, that brings up, I guess, a different
set of questions in that howdoes one go about getting a
particular Asian group to becomebrand loyal or appreciate the
quality of a particular product?
How would you go aboutsuggesting that that happens?
Michael Soon-Lee (22:27):
Well, the first thing you've got to do is
think long term.
You know the United States, ourcultures you know 250 years old
approximately.
But when you're dealing withAsian cultures, some of them are
thousands of years old and ifthey see one or two ads, it has
(22:48):
virtually no impact.
If you think you're going to goto a Chinese New Year festival
and have a booth and have anyimpact at all, I think you're
mistaken.
Okay, they want to see you theretime and time and time again.
They want to see your ad overand over in different ways in
(23:16):
different media, because theywant to know that you're not
just after their money, thatyou're here to support their
community and that you do wantto understand and you do want to
help them with your product orservice and you do want to help
them with your product orservice.
(23:36):
So you've got to thinklong-term.
You've got to have a budgetplanned out for years, not just
an annual budget.
You have to have a decade-longbudget or longer if you're going
to have any impact at all.
And I think a lot of ouradvertisers and advertising
agencies think you know they'regoing to do a Super Bowl ad and
(23:58):
they're going to have all ofthis impact Doesn't work for the
Asian community in particular,and so think long term.
Peter Woolfolk (24:08):
So this is part of I guess I would call it
building brand loyalty, in thatyou've got to be in front of
these groups for some extendedperiod of time, as you said,
more than just once or twice.
Michael Soon-Lee (24:21):
Absolutely, and then you've got to
understand what's important tothe Asian community.
We're not trying to lumpeverybody together, but in
general, asians reallyappreciate quality because they
want something that's going tolast.
Again, long-term culture theywant.
(24:43):
If you look at, for example,the vehicles that they drive,
they will pay extra forsomething that has longevity,
that is reliable.
Asians generally are not veryhandy.
They're not mechanical.
They don't want to spend theirtime taking the vehicle in and
(25:07):
having it serviced, just as anexample.
They want something that willlast and they're willing to pay
for it.
Peter Woolfolk (25:17):
So how does one, let's say, images, are there
any particular images thatrespond, that they respond to,
or words that they respond to incollaboration with developing
your sales pitches?
Michael Soon-Lee (25:33):
Well, again, what's important to Asians?
The number one thing that'simportant to Asians in general
is family.
They are a very high contextculture, which means the group
(25:54):
is more important than theindividual individual.
And so if they don't see, forexample, if you're trying to
sell a car, you don't want toshow just one Asian driving down
the road enjoying, you know,the sunlight and the sunset.
You want to show a familyhaving fun out, having a picnic,
(26:20):
doing things as a group.
The word family is important,the image of family is important
.
That is number one, whereas inAmerica we are a very low
context culture and one is notbetter than the other, they're
just different.
(26:41):
But in low context cultures,you know, we are proud to be
individuals, we.
You could.
You know you could never inasia sell one of those foam
fingers that you buy at thestadium at a ball game that says
we are number one, peter.
You can't give those away inAsia Because they aren't number
(27:06):
one.
The family is number one and soit's a different mindset and
it's hard for an Americancompany, an advertising company,
an advertiser, to get out ofthe American mindset of just
driving down the road and youknow, one person in a car.
(27:28):
That would be an anathema to anAsian.
Because, again, they're veryfrugal and they're very brand
loyal.
But it takes a long time tobuild brand loyalty, over and
over again.
But once you've got them, it'sworth it, because not only are
(27:51):
they brand loyal, they will telltheir friends and family
because in Asia they don'treally a low-context culture.
We rely on advertisingHigh-context cultures, they rely
on word of mouth and that wordof mouth is crucial.
(28:13):
But once you've got it, onceyou've built it, you've got them
for a lifetime, but it's worthit.
Peter Woolfolk (28:21):
Well, let me ask you, because one of the things
that has become popular aroundhere, of course, are influencers
Does?
The.
Asian community.
Are there influencers among theAsian community Actually, I
shouldn't say Asian because Iunderstand the various subgroups
there but are there influencersthat the various groups listen
to?
Michael Soon-Lee (28:41):
Well, for the young people, obviously, there
are social media influencersthat they follow, but for the
older group, the influencers arethe heads of the family, the
heads of the household, theministers at the churches.
The ministers at the churches,the leaders in the community,
(29:06):
are the influencers.
So it just depends on whatproduct or service are you
trying to sell to a particularAsian group.
Their influencers are different, which is why it's important to
(29:28):
either do your own research,which takes quite a while, or to
hire a specialty agency thatspecializes in the Asian market
and that just can you know.
It's expensive, obviously, butit can save you a great deal of
time.
Peter Woolfolk (29:47):
So one of the other things I'm getting out of
this is that organizations orcompanies trying to reach that
community really have to put insome time and effort to
understand who it is thatthey're trying to reach, how to
best reach them and who ourmessenger should be, so to speak
.
Michael Soon-Lee (30:05):
Either do your research or hire somebody my
friend, bill Amada, at the IWGroup.
It's an Asian-Americanspecialty advertising
organization and they've alreadydone the work organization and
they can.
They've already done the work,so you can either hire them or,
(30:27):
if you've got something that'sreally unique and out of their
area of expertise, you can doyour own research.
But it's going to take time andit's going to take a fair
amount of money.
Well, michael, this has been avery, very insightful and, in
our short period of time, I mean, I've learned an awful lot in
the short time we've been heretogether well, that's quite an
(30:48):
honor coming from you, peterwell, you know, the learning is
forever.
Peter Woolfolk (30:55):
I mean, you continue to learn it is well,
let me ask you now the amount ofinterviews you do.
Michael Soon-Lee (31:01):
I figured you knew everything.
I'm still learning, as I said,learning is forever it is.
Peter Woolfolk (31:08):
You provided an awful lot of information.
Let me ask you now do you haveany sort of closing remarks or
wisdom tidbits that you wouldlike to impart to our listeners?
Michael Soon-Lee (31:24):
part to our listeners.
Well, I just want to say, peter, you know, my work has always
been around the fact that Asiansare really not a lot different
than anybody else.
We have similar wants and needs.
We all want good schools forour kids, we all want to be
financially secure, have a nicehome and who doesn't want any of
(31:45):
those things, Peter?
But there's just.
I think Asian Americans areprobably the least understood of
any group in America.
I think we understand the LGBTQplus community better than we
understand Asians, and if wewould just take the time to look
(32:10):
past some of the differencesthat you see on the outside,
you'll see how similar we trulyare on the inside, and I'm
currently writing a book calledBeyond the Bamboo Curtain, just
so people could understand alittle bit of some of the
challenges that we as AsianAmericans have.
(32:33):
There's a myth out there thatwe're all rich, we're all
well-educated, and that's reallynot true.
All well-educated, and that'sreally not true.
We're an extremely diversecommunity and it's important for
people to understand thatdiversity, even within the Asian
community, but to just get toknow us as people.
(32:55):
There's been a lot of violenceagainst the Asian American
community simply because peopledon't understand us Again.
They think you know we have allof the advantages.
Well, we don't.
We've been discriminated sincethe first day we arrived in the
United States.
(33:16):
There have been laws that havetried to keep us out of this
country, that have kept us frombecoming American citizens.
There have been laws that havekept us from becoming immigrants
into the United States, and onand on and on it goes.
It's just, it's a littledifferent.
We do have certain privileges,which I call yellow privilege,
(33:40):
but we don't have all of therights that are guaranteed to
Americans in this country yet,and so I hope people will just
take the time to get to know us,as people get to know our
challenges and you know we willthen get to buy from you.
(34:00):
We will be brand loyal, buttake some time to get to know us
before you try to sell to us.
Peter Woolfolk (34:09):
Well, Michael, as I said, you have really
provided us with a wealth ofinformation.
I'm certainly leading theparade to make that announcement
.
Michael Soon-Lee (34:17):
Thank you, Peter.
Peter Woolfolk (34:18):
I'd like to say thank you to my guest today, dr
Michael Soon-Lee.
He's the president ofEthnoConnect and he joined us
today from Dublin, california,so if you've enjoyed it, please
take some notes, share thisinformation with your fellow PR
folks, because this is somecritical and very, very vital
(34:39):
information, and I want to againthank Michael for joining us
and, if you've enjoyed theprogram, please give us a great
review.
Oh and, by the way, don'tforget to look at our updated
video on YouTube at the PublicRelations Review Podcast.
So, once again, thank you forlistening and have a great day.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
This podcast is produced by Communication
Strategies, an award-winningpublic relations and public
affairs firm headquartered inNashville, Tennessee.
Thank you for joining us.
Welcome to the Public Relations Review Podcast
and to our listeners all acrossAmerica and around the world.
By now, we all know that thecomposition of the US population
is changing and, as PR andmarketing people, we need to
understand this growth and howto best reach the market and
these varying populationsegments.
Now, according to Pew Research,the nation's Asian population
(00:52):
rose to 22.4 million in 2019.
Asians now make up about 7% ofthe US population.
Now there are about 20different Asian groups in
America.
In America, chinese Americansare the largest Asian group,
making up 24% of the populationat about 5.4 million.
The next two largest groups areIndian Americans, who account
(01:13):
for 21%, or about 4.6 million,and Filipinos, who account for
19%, at 4.2 million.
Now, in descending order areVietnamese at 2.2 million,
koreans at 1.9 million andJapanese at 1.5 million
population.
The other groups account for12% of the US Asian population,
(01:34):
totaling about 2.7 million.
So why is this important.
My guest today can answer thatquestion in detail and what you
absolutely must know before youcan penetrate the Asian American
market.
So joining me today from Dublin, california, is Dr Michael
Soon-Lee, president ofEthnoConnect.
Now, ethnoconnect providesseminars, training, consulting
(01:57):
and coaching on how to sell moreproducts and services to Asian
Americans.
He has been a college professor, the marketing director for the
state of California and aproducer for ABC television
network.
He has written numerous booksand has spoken on this matter
around the world, and now he'son our podcast.
Michael, thank you so much forjoining us today.
Michael Soon-Lee (02:19):
It's my pleasure, Peter.
Thank you for having me.
Peter Woolfolk (02:22):
Well, now that we've read that introduction,
what is the number one reasonthat we should want to market to
the Asian American community?
Michael Soon-Lee (02:31):
Well, Peter, as you mentioned, Asians are
growing rapidly 7% of the USpopulation and growing rapidly
but the main reason is Asians inAmerica have the highest median
income.
In 2020, the Asian averagemedian income was $94,900,
(02:55):
compared to white non-Hispanicat about $75,000, Hispanics at
$55,000, and blacks at about $55,000 and Blacks at about
46,000.
, so you're talking about arapidly growing and very high
income group.
They have money to buy, Peter.
Peter Woolfolk (03:17):
Well, that certainly really causes you to
pay attention.
So now you also say that thereare some absolute differences,
that one must learn about theAsian groups before they can be
attracted to marketing efforts.
So, let's go down that list ofwhat those absolutes are.
Michael Soon-Lee (03:34):
Well, I think, as you mentioned early on,
peter, the first thing you'vegot to understand is Asians are
not one big, happy family.
You mentioned the fact thatthere are Chinese as the largest
group, then you have AsianIndians and Filipinos, and all
of the 20-plus groups are very,very different.
(03:56):
They all have differentlanguages, different foods,
different religions, you name it.
They are very different.
In fact, they don't all getalong.
My mother, when I was in highschool and beginning to date,
she said don't you ever bring aJapanese girl into this house?
And I said, mom, we're Chinese,japanese, look just like us.
(04:19):
She said absolutely not.
No, they don't.
And during World War II theJapanese were very cruel to the
Chinese.
Don't you ever bring a Japanesegirl into this house.
So, peter, what nationality doyou think was the first girl I
brought home?
She was Japanese, but you knowwe are very different groups.
(04:46):
So, as I mentioned, just forexample, you know Asians in
general have the highest medianincome, but we also have the
highest poverty rates amongst,for example, the Bhutanese,
which are Southeast Asians.
They have the highest povertyrate of any group in the United
States.
(05:07):
So the first thing you want todo if you're trying to market to
the Asian population is tofigure out specifically which
Asian group are you trying toreach, which Asian group has the
most potential for your productor service.
And then you want to learnabout that group again.
(05:28):
You know what, what is theirfavorite food, what?
uh, you know what do theybelieve in, what holidays do
they celebrate and those kindsof things, because each group is
so very different but, one ofthe things we've got to
understand when we're marketingis, unfortunately, in the first
(05:50):
30 seconds, most untrainedmarketers and salespeople who
are trying to reach the Asiancommunity or the Asian market is
that unfortunately, in thefirst 30 seconds, if you're not
trained, you willunintentionally insult an Asian
customer at least three times inthe first 30 seconds.
Peter Woolfolk (06:14):
Well, let's talk specifically about what those
things are that could cause thatsort of an insult.
Michael Soon-Lee (06:19):
Well, it depends on whether you're
meeting them in person or you'remarketing to them through the
media.
But let's just take you know.
If you're meeting someone forthe first time in a store, on
their doorstep, as a salesperson, what's the first thing we're
taught to do as salespeople?
Peter?
Peter Woolfolk (06:40):
Basically extend your hand and say hello.
Michael Soon-Lee (06:43):
Absolutely, basically extend your hand and
say hello, absolutely.
But in the new global world andit's true not just for asians
but for a lot of differentcultural groups around the world
you do not want to extend yourhand to shake it.
Because just to touch ajapanese woman, a traditional
japanese woman, a traditionalasian Indian woman, a
(07:07):
traditional Middle Eastern woman, you would absolutely insult
not only her but her husband,her family, her religion and her
culture to try and even touchher, because in those cultures
the only people who are allowedto touch them in any way, shape
(07:29):
or form are their spouse orfamily members, and that's it.
So the question then becomes ifyou're meeting someone in
person, how do you meet an Asianor someone who normally doesn't
shake hands or would feeluncomfortable shaking hands?
And the answer, Peter, is yougreet them verbally Hi, I'm
(07:56):
Michael Lee, Welcome to ourstore.
And then you hesitate for amoment and see what they do
first.
What kind of greeting do theyfeel comfortable?
Obviously, if they'recomfortable in shaking hands,
the man is going to put his handout.
Go ahead and shake it.
Probably the woman won't dothat.
(08:17):
But if the man doesn't put hishand out now, what do you do?
He's probably just going to nodto you, which is sort of the
modern version of bowing, whichhas been done for thousands of
years.
But the modern version now isjust to kind of nod to show you
respect, sort of a half bow.
(08:39):
And what do we do?
We do exactly what they do.
If they bow to us or nod to us,we do the same.
And then we turn to the woman.
Don't put your hand out, Seewhat she does.
She will most likely bow to youor nod to you and you just do
(08:59):
the same.
And that's true not just withAsians, but any cultural group
around the world these days.
Just do what they do.
And, Peter, isn't that theultimate in good customer
service?
Doing what's comfortable forthe customer, not what's
comfortable for us?
Peter Woolfolk (09:17):
You know I certainly agree with that.
I'm hearing you say right nowis the very first thing you need
to do is understand what groupyou're dealing with and
understand what the culture ofthat group is, so that you don't
have a major snafu on yourhands at the initial greeting.
Michael Soon-Lee (09:40):
Yeah, and actually you don't.
Even people born in the US grewup in the US many generations
back.
They may not feel comfortablein shaking hands, and it's not
just because of COVID A lot offolks in the South they don't
feel comfortable in shakinghands.
They would prefer just to againjust nod at you or smile at you
(10:04):
.
Prefer just to again just nodat you or smile at you.
So how do you know how anybodywants to be greeted these days?
Instead of assuming, justintroduce yourself and observe
and see what they do first andthen just do the same.
(10:24):
Watch and observe, watch andobserve.
But with.
Asians.
One of the things you got towatch out for is eye contact in
America, peter.
What does good, strong eyecontact mean to us?
Peter Woolfolk (10:38):
Confidence is certainly one of them.
Michael Soon-Lee (10:40):
And honesty too right, and paying attention
and showing respect.
That's what we believe inAmerica, but in many Asian
cultures, particularly theJapanese culture, some Chinese
cultures and many NativeAmerican cultures, they don't
(11:01):
look you in the eye out ofrespect for you, but for
Americans, man, that is souncomfortable.
We're trying to get good,strong eye contact and they're
looking away.
Just be comfortable with it andrecognize this is what they are
comfortable with and just dothe same.
(11:22):
Just look down, look awaywherever they're looking, but
just don't try to get eyecontact, because they can feel
you try to look at them and it'sgoing to make them feel very
uncomfortable and that couldactually ruin your whole
relationship from the beginning.
If you don't give them the samelevel of eye contact they give
(11:45):
you, or if you try and shaketheir hand and they don't want
it Again, you're going to betrying to recover from that for
I don't know how long, but itcould really make your
relationship very uncomfortablefrom the very start.
Peter Woolfolk (12:04):
You know, this is some very, very important
information.
So let's keep on with thisbecause, as I said, I had no
idea, and I'm sure most of ourlisteners don't.
So let's keep going with someof the other things we need to
be aware of.
Michael Soon-Lee (12:17):
Well, personal space is very personal to us,
and in America we like to standabout two and a half to three
feet apart when we're talking tosomeone we're not really very
familiar with yet.
And so in America we shakehands, we drop our hands, we're
standing about two and a halffeet apart, and that tends to be
(12:39):
our comfortable personal spacedistance.
But in many Asian cultures theyare much more formal.
The Japanese people will nod orbow to you and then they will
take a step back because theylike a lot of personal space.
(13:01):
In fact, japanese probably wantthe most personal space of any
group in the world.
The problem with that is, foran American, when a Japanese
person steps back into a morecomfortable personal space, for
them that's now like the GrandCanyon to us.
(13:22):
So what do you think, peter, isour natural tendency?
When a space opens up like thatand that's not comfortable for
us, what do we do?
Peter Woolfolk (13:35):
Something tells me we might want to step closer
to them.
Michael Soon-Lee (13:39):
Absolutely.
That's more comfortable for us,but then that violates the
Japanese person's personal space.
So now, what do they do, peter?
Peter Woolfolk (13:49):
Shift into reverse again.
Michael Soon-Lee (13:52):
They step back , we step forward.
We chase them all over the room, and do you think that's
comfortable for the Japaneseperson?
Peter Woolfolk (14:03):
Probably not very.
Michael Soon-Lee (14:05):
Why are you following me?
I want more personal space.
It's what we would consider inAmerica close talking and we
hate that.
And the Japanese hate peoplethat close up their personal
space as well.
And it's a funny thing to kindof watch.
(14:26):
At a party or a networkingmeeting You'll watch a Japanese
person slowly backing up awayfrom the hors d'oeuvre table and
all of a sudden you know theAmerican will follow them and
eventually they'll be 15 feetaway against a wall.
It's hilarious and yet it'ssomewhat sad because you can see
(14:48):
that relationship is not goinganywhere.
Peter Woolfolk (14:52):
Well, let me ask a quick question then because
is there a difference in thesecultures depending upon the age
of the person we're talkingabout?
Because we've got a lot of,let's say, japanese students
that are here going to schooland so forth and so on, and
maybe just out of school.
How do they observe thosecultural differences there?
Michael Soon-Lee (15:15):
Well, it's not necessarily age, Peter, it's
what generation are you dealingwith?
Okay, so the first generationof any group Asian, hispanic,
black, it doesn't matter.
The first generation who comesto the United States is the
(15:36):
first generation, and they'rethe ones that have the most
beliefs and we should talk aboutcultural beliefs in a minute
but they're the ones that arethe most uncomfortable with the
American culture, the Englishlanguage, and they're the ones
that are most sensitive to thesecultural differences.
(15:56):
The second generation are thefirst generation to be born in
the United States.
These are Americans and theytend to be bilingual because
they learn the language of theirancestors from their parents,
but they also learn English inthe school, so they tend to make
(16:16):
good interpreters, but theytend to have less of the beliefs
and cultural attributes oftheir parents.
The first generation, the nextgeneration, are the children of
the people born here, so theyare third generation and beyond.
So as you become acculturatedto the United States, you have
(16:41):
less and less of these culturalbeliefs and affects.
But when that goes away, nobodyknows, because culture runs
very, very deep.
In the old days, peter, you mayremember we were taught that
when immigrants come to theUnited States it was like a
(17:04):
melting pot and we allcontributed our culture, but we
all became Americans.
We became one big stew culture,but we all became Americans.
We became one big stew.
But today cultures tend to hangon to their language and their
beliefs and their food muchlonger.
So today we are more like asalad, where you can see all the
(17:28):
wonderful ingredients and it'sa wonderful meal.
But you can still see thetomatoes and the carrots and the
individual components, but itall comes together to make a
really delicious meal.
But again, it depends on howlong they've been here.
So if you're dealing with astudent who's been in this
(17:51):
country for five or 10 years,they're going to have less
cultural impact and they'regoing to be more aware that
Americans behave this way, thattheir culture and the way they
did things was the norm.
(18:19):
You need to be very sensitive asa marketer, as a salesperson.
So if you're marketing toAsians, number one thing you've
got to do is, in your ads, showAsians.
But again it comes back, peter,to.
You've got to know whichculture.
(18:40):
Because if you're trying tomarket to the Japanese, you
better not show Chinese people,because they can tell Most
people can't, but Asians cantell the difference.
By looking at another Asian,they can tell Whether you're
Chinese, japanese, korean,filipino.
(19:00):
They can tell, and they cansometimes tell which generation
you are.
So number one use Asian images,use the right ones and be sure
that you know how they use yourproduct or service so that it's
(19:21):
in the right context, becauseotherwise Asians will totally
ignore ads that number one,don't have Asians in them and
number two, don't have thespecific group that they are.
Peter Woolfolk (19:36):
You know this brings up an interesting point.
Then it sounds to me that if infact, I've got a PR firm or a
marketing firm that wants toreach an Asian group, I should
have someone from that groupright in the center of my team
that's putting this marketingcampaign together.
Because these are the thingsI'm going to call them
(19:58):
subtleties that most folks maynot pick up unless they've been
around a particular asian groupfor a long, long time yeah, and
you want to have more than justone, peter, because that one may
not be consistent with thegroup that you're trying to
reach.
Michael Soon-Lee (20:16):
So, for example, if you're trying to
reach new immigrant ChineseAmericans and you had me on your
team, I would have not a clueabout immigrant Chinese and
their needs and their wants andtheir relationship to your
product, because I'm fifthgeneration.
(20:37):
My ancestors came here in 1855and I speak no Chinese.
Thanks to the California publicschool system, peter, I speak
Spanish.
So, I'm not going to be veryhelpful, but I can help you with
(20:58):
Asian Americans because that'swho I am, that's my level of
expertise.
So you've got to be very, verycareful and recognize that
amongst Asians there can bedifferent dialects of different
languages.
If you're trying to do a printad, if you're trying to do
(21:21):
voiceover that has Chinese in it, for example, you know my
ancestors came from China andthey all spoke Cantonese.
But the new immigrants thesedays coming from mainland China,
they almost all speak Mandarinand they're not very compatible.
(21:42):
So you've got to knowspecifically and there are
village dialects of Mandarin.
It just depends on who you'retrying to reach.
So working with a multicultural, really aware and really expert
advertising agency whospecializes in that particular
(22:05):
group is really essential.
Peter Woolfolk (22:09):
Well, that brings up, I guess, a different
set of questions in that howdoes one go about getting a
particular Asian group to becomebrand loyal or appreciate the
quality of a particular product?
How would you go aboutsuggesting that that happens?
Michael Soon-Lee (22:27):
Well, the first thing you've got to do is
think long term.
You know the United States, ourcultures you know 250 years old
approximately.
But when you're dealing withAsian cultures, some of them are
thousands of years old and ifthey see one or two ads, it has
(22:48):
virtually no impact.
If you think you're going to goto a Chinese New Year festival
and have a booth and have anyimpact at all, I think you're
mistaken.
Okay, they want to see you theretime and time and time again.
They want to see your ad overand over in different ways in
(23:16):
different media, because theywant to know that you're not
just after their money, thatyou're here to support their
community and that you do wantto understand and you do want to
help them with your product orservice and you do want to help
them with your product orservice.
(23:36):
So you've got to thinklong-term.
You've got to have a budgetplanned out for years, not just
an annual budget.
You have to have a decade-longbudget or longer if you're going
to have any impact at all.
And I think a lot of ouradvertisers and advertising
agencies think you know they'regoing to do a Super Bowl ad and
(23:58):
they're going to have all ofthis impact Doesn't work for the
Asian community in particular,and so think long term.
Peter Woolfolk (24:08):
So this is part of I guess I would call it
building brand loyalty, in thatyou've got to be in front of
these groups for some extendedperiod of time, as you said,
more than just once or twice.
Michael Soon-Lee (24:21):
Absolutely, and then you've got to
understand what's important tothe Asian community.
We're not trying to lumpeverybody together, but in
general, asians reallyappreciate quality because they
want something that's going tolast.
Again, long-term culture theywant.
(24:43):
If you look at, for example,the vehicles that they drive,
they will pay extra forsomething that has longevity,
that is reliable.
Asians generally are not veryhandy.
They're not mechanical.
They don't want to spend theirtime taking the vehicle in and
(25:07):
having it serviced, just as anexample.
They want something that willlast and they're willing to pay
for it.
Peter Woolfolk (25:17):
So how does one, let's say, images, are there
any particular images thatrespond, that they respond to,
or words that they respond to incollaboration with developing
your sales pitches?
Michael Soon-Lee (25:33):
Well, again, what's important to Asians?
The number one thing that'simportant to Asians in general
is family.
They are a very high contextculture, which means the group
(25:54):
is more important than theindividual individual.
And so if they don't see, forexample, if you're trying to
sell a car, you don't want toshow just one Asian driving down
the road enjoying, you know,the sunlight and the sunset.
You want to show a familyhaving fun out, having a picnic,
(26:20):
doing things as a group.
The word family is important,the image of family is important
.
That is number one, whereas inAmerica we are a very low
context culture and one is notbetter than the other, they're
just different.
(26:41):
But in low context cultures,you know, we are proud to be
individuals, we.
You could.
You know you could never inasia sell one of those foam
fingers that you buy at thestadium at a ball game that says
we are number one, peter.
You can't give those away inAsia Because they aren't number
(27:06):
one.
The family is number one and soit's a different mindset and
it's hard for an Americancompany, an advertising company,
an advertiser, to get out ofthe American mindset of just
driving down the road and youknow, one person in a car.
(27:28):
That would be an anathema to anAsian.
Because, again, they're veryfrugal and they're very brand
loyal.
But it takes a long time tobuild brand loyalty, over and
over again.
But once you've got them, it'sworth it, because not only are
(27:51):
they brand loyal, they will telltheir friends and family
because in Asia they don'treally a low-context culture.
We rely on advertisingHigh-context cultures, they rely
on word of mouth and that wordof mouth is crucial.
(28:13):
But once you've got it, onceyou've built it, you've got them
for a lifetime, but it's worthit.
Peter Woolfolk (28:21):
Well, let me ask you, because one of the things
that has become popular aroundhere, of course, are influencers
Does?
The.
Asian community.
Are there influencers among theAsian community Actually, I
shouldn't say Asian because Iunderstand the various subgroups
there but are there influencersthat the various groups listen
to?
Michael Soon-Lee (28:41):
Well, for the young people, obviously, there
are social media influencersthat they follow, but for the
older group, the influencers arethe heads of the family, the
heads of the household, theministers at the churches.
The ministers at the churches,the leaders in the community,
(29:06):
are the influencers.
So it just depends on whatproduct or service are you
trying to sell to a particularAsian group.
Their influencers are different, which is why it's important to
(29:28):
either do your own research,which takes quite a while, or to
hire a specialty agency thatspecializes in the Asian market
and that just can you know.
It's expensive, obviously, butit can save you a great deal of
time.
Peter Woolfolk (29:47):
So one of the other things I'm getting out of
this is that organizations orcompanies trying to reach that
community really have to put insome time and effort to
understand who it is thatthey're trying to reach, how to
best reach them and who ourmessenger should be, so to speak
.
Michael Soon-Lee (30:05):
Either do your research or hire somebody my
friend, bill Amada, at the IWGroup.
It's an Asian-Americanspecialty advertising
organization and they've alreadydone the work organization and
they can.
They've already done the work,so you can either hire them or,
(30:27):
if you've got something that'sreally unique and out of their
area of expertise, you can doyour own research.
But it's going to take time andit's going to take a fair
amount of money.
Well, michael, this has been avery, very insightful and, in
our short period of time, I mean, I've learned an awful lot in
the short time we've been heretogether well, that's quite an
(30:48):
honor coming from you, peterwell, you know, the learning is
forever.
Peter Woolfolk (30:55):
I mean, you continue to learn it is well,
let me ask you now the amount ofinterviews you do.
Michael Soon-Lee (31:01):
I figured you knew everything.
I'm still learning, as I said,learning is forever it is.
Peter Woolfolk (31:08):
You provided an awful lot of information.
Let me ask you now do you haveany sort of closing remarks or
wisdom tidbits that you wouldlike to impart to our listeners?
Michael Soon-Lee (31:24):
part to our listeners.
Well, I just want to say, peter, you know, my work has always
been around the fact that Asiansare really not a lot different
than anybody else.
We have similar wants and needs.
We all want good schools forour kids, we all want to be
financially secure, have a nicehome and who doesn't want any of
(31:45):
those things, Peter?
But there's just.
I think Asian Americans areprobably the least understood of
any group in America.
I think we understand the LGBTQplus community better than we
understand Asians, and if wewould just take the time to look
(32:10):
past some of the differencesthat you see on the outside,
you'll see how similar we trulyare on the inside, and I'm
currently writing a book calledBeyond the Bamboo Curtain, just
so people could understand alittle bit of some of the
challenges that we as AsianAmericans have.
(32:33):
There's a myth out there thatwe're all rich, we're all
well-educated, and that's reallynot true.
All well-educated, and that'sreally not true.
We're an extremely diversecommunity and it's important for
people to understand thatdiversity, even within the Asian
community, but to just get toknow us as people.
(32:55):
There's been a lot of violenceagainst the Asian American
community simply because peopledon't understand us Again.
They think you know we have allof the advantages.
Well, we don't.
We've been discriminated sincethe first day we arrived in the
United States.
(33:16):
There have been laws that havetried to keep us out of this
country, that have kept us frombecoming American citizens.
There have been laws that havekept us from becoming immigrants
into the United States, and onand on and on it goes.
It's just, it's a littledifferent.
We do have certain privileges,which I call yellow privilege,
(33:40):
but we don't have all of therights that are guaranteed to
Americans in this country yet,and so I hope people will just
take the time to get to know us,as people get to know our
challenges and you know we willthen get to buy from you.
(34:00):
We will be brand loyal, buttake some time to get to know us
before you try to sell to us.
Peter Woolfolk (34:09):
Well, Michael, as I said, you have really
provided us with a wealth ofinformation.
I'm certainly leading theparade to make that announcement
.
Michael Soon-Lee (34:17):
Thank you, Peter.
Peter Woolfolk (34:18):
I'd like to say thank you to my guest today, dr
Michael Soon-Lee.
He's the president ofEthnoConnect and he joined us
today from Dublin, california,so if you've enjoyed it, please
take some notes, share thisinformation with your fellow PR
folks, because this is somecritical and very, very vital
(34:39):
information, and I want to againthank Michael for joining us
and, if you've enjoyed theprogram, please give us a great
review.
Oh and, by the way, don'tforget to look at our updated
video on YouTube at the PublicRelations Review Podcast.
So, once again, thank you forlistening and have a great day.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
This podcast is produced by Communication
Strategies, an award-winningpublic relations and public
affairs firm headquartered inNashville, Tennessee.
Thank you for joining us.
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.