June 11, 2025 • 39 mins
Everyone knows the worst part about selling books is the selling part. That darned author-marketing! So in this episode, we break down a recent post by popular author-marketing guru, Dan Blank, and discuss the difference between being "intentional" and being *integrative*--replacing the agenda-driven drudgery with some creative fun while generating interest in your books.
You really can find and craft your authentic voice in today's online world!
Also, David has some takeaways from the Independent Booksellers Association conference, and gets a bit personal about my social media posts, as examples of creative marketing that doesn't feel coercive or forced (which was very kind! But I'm not selling books myself yet).
Dan Blank's post on Substack:
The Creative Shift by Dan Blank (How One Author Found Her Voice Online)
And you can follow us too while you're at it: Mick Silva Editing and David R. Morris
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 01 (00:01):
Hey, this is Publishing Disrupted.
Publishing Disrupted is thename of the podcast that we do.
Yeah, you were disrupted, as you started saying that. You disrupted yourself.
That's good.
We need to disrupt ourselves.
Wait a second. What is this podcast? Wedo! And yeah, we're two former
Christian publishingprofessionals.
(00:21):
Still mostly professional, Iguess, in this place, but former
Christian publishingprofessionals.
Trying to talk about the upsand downs of publishing in
general and moving toward theindependent book market.
That was not the usual intro.
Speaker 00 (00:37):
No, that's fine.
I think you just left out yourname for those who haven't
listened to the podcast before.
I'm Mick Silva, editor Mick Silva.
I'm David Morris, publisher and literary agent.
That's right. So that's who we are. And we come from, as I said, the Christian publishing behemoth industry.
Yeah, our old selves.
(00:58):
And yeah, we're reinventing.
So a lot of people are in thisboat with us.
We keep finding them all thetime.
And we just hope to, I don'tknow, make a space for these
people and trying to find, youknow, how to reinvent and do it
well and do it authentically.
Like that's my word for theday, probably authentic.
(01:19):
Yeah.
We're gonna get into a littlebit of from last time we talked
about we wanted to move intowell, just continue talking
about some of the fun changesthat have been going on and dig
in a little bit more on how todo this authentically.
That's kind of where my mind'sat.
(01:40):
But you've been doing sometraveling.
You were at the indieconference.
Yeah.
So I founded Lake Drive Books.
It's an independent bookpublishing company, very
grassroots, scrappy, trying toappeal to the ex-evangelical
post- evangelical audience,self-help as well.
(02:03):
I have a psychology background,I want to publish more
psychologists.
So, I attended the IndependentBook Publishers Association
meeting.
They had their annualpublishing university in
Minneapolis a couple weeks ago.
It's a good book spot.
Yeah, it is, actually.
Independent books.
(02:25):
A bunch of publishers there,believe it or not, and even like
a book depository or something,some kind of museum about books
is there.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, you know, whatstruck me was, I mean, it's a...
It's a conference that was wellattended.
I think they have well over3,000 members.
(02:45):
I happen to know the CEO,Andrea Fleck Nisbet of IBPA, and
I heard her remark recentlythat a third of the books that
are produced in the US are byIBPA.
independent publishers.
Wow.
Yeah, yeah.
(03:06):
Now, granted, a lot of that'svanity, but then again, there's
vanity publishing at all levels,believe it or not.
People don't know that, butit's true.
Absolutely.
But there is a fair amount, Ithink, too, at the indie level,
definitely.
Yeah.
So this is a pretty widelyranging group from...
um, authors who want to takematters into their own hands and
(03:27):
do DIY publishing.
And some get really good at it,especially in the fiction area.
Speaker 01 (03:32):
Is that right?
Speaker 00 (03:32):
Yeah.
Fiction.
Yeah.
Cause fiction is much more likeit's a, it's appealing to power
readers who consume a lot.
And right.
Right.
You know, there's a lot oftactics that are going on these
days, like publishing series ofbooks is a, is a great marketing
tactic in and of itself.
Um, to, uh, people who are justpublishing because of interests
that they're really, you know,they're really zeroed in on
(03:54):
whether it's children's books orbooks about animals, history
books, what have you, somethingthat's a passion for them.
They may be writers withintheir publishing enterprise or
they may be publishing plenty ofother people.
I'm one of those in a waybecause my passion is for
reaching those who havestruggled with institutional
(04:14):
religion and they're trying tofind their way forward in terms
of identity, in terms of whatthey define as spirituality.
Speaker 01 (04:21):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 00 (04:22):
What really surprised me about it is just
how vibrant it was.
Some of the people there wereindie publishers who've been in
it for a while and they're quitesuccessful and they're probably
$10 million annual revenuecompanies or higher.
Wow, that's great.
But there's a lot ofindependent startup types there.
(04:43):
People with a very wide rangeof publishing knowledge, some
who didn't even know what BISACcodes are, which are those codes
that...
You know, you may not know whatthey are as an everyday person,
but you might see themsometimes on the back of a book
where there's like categorieswith slashes.
Speaker 01 (05:01):
Which booksellers used to then basically shelve
the books.
Right.
Where they go.
Speaker 00 (05:06):
Right.
But yeah.
And there's a whole discussionabout that kind of thing too.
But I was just surprised with,you know, I saw...
Just a lot of vibrancy, a lotof talk about artificial
intelligence and how do we makesense of what's going on with
that.
It's definitely being usedwidely in the publishing
industry.
I was really surprised at howmany colleagues I ran into.
(05:34):
I saw people there I didn'tknow would be there.
I ran into someone who's insales and we started talking and
we may actually...
going to try to figure out ifwe can work together yeah that's
great i was really reallypleasantly surprised about that
um you know for me it's more ofa place to go and just let new
ideas germinate you know how todo the business had a great
(05:56):
great conversation aboutaudiobooks nice um that's big
yeah yeah um i mean they'rethey're a much more active
category and The technology isthere.
It's a lot easier to make audiobooks than it used to be.
Typically, they're veryexpensive to produce up front.
Right.
It's gotten a lot easier.
And there's a pretty good skillset that goes along with that,
(06:19):
too, that's separate from usualpublishing skill sets.
Voice talent and recording.
Yeah.
Engineering the files.
Yeah.
So that was super helpful forme.
But just being around otherpeople and sharing stories and
how are you doing things.
Speaker 01 (06:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 00 (06:36):
I think that's one of the things I've enjoyed the
most about being in thepublishing industry is being
able to be with other people inpublishing.
Because it's It's such amysterious profession.
It is.
There's so many facets.
There's so many contexts.
There's so much change that hasgone on.
So, um, I just, that, that partwas just very, you know,
(06:57):
nourishing.
Sp (06:59):
That's good. I like the word vibrant.
I'm, I'm seeing that more andmore too.
And, you know, I was just onvacation in Portland, Oregon
and, uh, seeing family andstuff.
Of course we go to, you know,Powell's and we stop into the,
the indie bookstores and it'sjust great to see how much is
available now.
I mean, in what you say, likedrilling down on specific
(07:19):
topics, it's almost like endlesshow specific you can get on
particular just niche interests.
And I've always loved thatabout publishing, but to be able
to see that that's stillhappening in a world dominated
by the big five and Amazon.
Yeah.
Anyway, I mean, we couldprobably go on a while, but you
(07:43):
also saw a really cool article,I think, on Substack, Dan Blank.
I don't know if you want toshare some of your takeaways on
that, but like When you sent itto me, of course, I've read damn
blank a while and always gottengood stuff out of it, as I know
you have.
But trying to make this shift,you need some of these people
(08:05):
who are a little bit of anindependent vessel who help to
interpret some of the more, Iguess...
monolithic That can seem like amonolithic culture when you're
getting into publishing and andthat's been my experience But
now as I as I age and get andget older in this I recognize
you can be pretty authentic inhow you approach and go after
(08:27):
what it is that interests you,how you approach publishing.
Speaker 00 (08:31):
And getting yourself out there.
Exactly. And still make money,still be able to do this
profitably.
Maybe not, you know, to thelevels that you would dream and
love to have, but maybe also, Ithink there's no limit to what
you could be able to dodepending on, you know, your
particular skill sets andinterests.
(08:52):
So, Dan Blank was helpingsomeone, and he's basically a
marketer, a coach, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 01 (09:00):
Helps people.
Speaker 00 (09:01):
He is one of those people out there who is helping
authors with their marketingwork, with their platforming
work.
Speaker 01 (09:08):
They're just kind of figuring this out.
How do I get a book in front ofpeople, and how do I get them
to see me?
Speaker 00 (09:13):
Maybe it's better to say their audience development.
It's not just marketing.
The word marketing can feelpretty...
you know, loaded and sure.
Um, it, but it's, it's muchmore, it's much more than that.
Um, how, how do you, how do youestablish an audience?
How do you become known?
(09:33):
How do you, how do you build ononce you're known?
How do you build on that?
Right.
Right.
He's one of those folks that,that, I think he's actually one
of the more thoughtful ones whobrings us deeper, wider sense of
framework around what is itthat you're actually doing.
That whole idea of creativeshift is his title.
(09:54):
And I don't know where he cameup with that, but we were
talking before we startedrecording here that I think a
lot of the creative shift isabout how do you think about
these other mediums?
And I think that's what he'shelping authors do.
The digital mediums are a newmedium.
(10:15):
Like this, a podcast.
Yeah.
They're a medium in their ownright.
Being on social media or havingan email list, that's not...
If you think of that as justmarketing, you're missing the
point.
Right.
Those places are opportunitiesto make an impact.
(10:35):
They're different places.
But they have caused us, Ithink, to reevaluate what is the
medium of a book.
I think books are stillvaluable.
People don't realize it, butpeople still buy print books
more than they do e-book andaudio, by far, depending on the
(10:56):
category.
Fiction is higher with digitaleditions.
But the way we value the mediumof books...
is to needs to be reevaluated,and to be simply cynical about
social media.
And there's a lot of reasons tobe cynical about social media.
(11:18):
People use it, they abuse it,however, whatever you want to
call it.
But I think what Dan tries todo is help people see that's a
place where you can show up asyourself.
It's just different.
Right.
Yeah.
And so how do you value that?
How do you understand that?
I mean, how long have we hadsocial media?
(11:39):
You know, 15 years in a seriousway, maybe?
Sure.
Yeah.
I think we're still kind ofrewiring ourselves about how to
work with it.
And it certainly has changed alot as a landscape.
Well, right.
Yeah.
Speaker 01 (11:53):
Different platforms have different, you know,
characteristics and qualities.
Unknown (12:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 01 (12:01):
Yeah, no, I think, well, and, and for Dan, I think
I say marketing just cause thatthat's the big overall, you
know, awning over what he does,but, but yeah, it's, it's
publicity training.
It's, it's a lot of likefiguring out, um, and
authentic's the word.
So I'm just going to go back toit, but like figuring out who
you authentically are as awriter, as an artist, as a
(12:23):
creator person, and then, uh,honing that or fitting it to the
particular, uh, outlets and,and platforms.
And I think there's just a lotof work involved there, like to
figure that out, first of all.
So we start typically with avision form, at least I do.
And I know you have this on thepublishing side too, a vision
(12:45):
form that helps to, and whateveryou call it, maybe it's a
publishing document, but ithelps to kind of identify why
are you doing this?
What is it that's in your...
you know, wheelhouse to thenput out in terms of helping
people get to know you.
And then we'll, we'll fit thatto the platform, whether that's
a podcast or, I mean, typicallyI think you're going to need to
(13:06):
have a sub stack or somethingthat gets your words out there.
Even if you're just doingexcerpts from the print
material, that's fine.
But, um, you know, for somepeople, they're going to be very
personable.
Others are going to be, uh,erudite and, and, you know,
teach as a professor.
Um, his example in here is aprofessor at graduate level, but
wants to bring her message downto earth and make it more
(13:28):
accessible to people.
So she's...
teaching grammar from a bathtuband taking a video of that just
because it's interesting andfun.
And so you can build anaudience based off of this
because that's a funjuxtaposition.
It takes a little while to comeup with that format.
But once you do, you can putthose videos on TikTok or on
(13:48):
Instagram or whatever and figureout how to do that.
It's a little bit of work, butit is ultimately way more fun.
What I came away with from thispost, and we should probably
put it in the notes for theshow, but I came away with
understanding that what you'reauthentically into and what your
book is about can be alaunching pad for this,
(14:10):
basically building a wideraudience through these mediums,
whether that's a podcast orSubstack or Facebook.
And it doesn't have to just bea marketing device to sell your
book.
That's, that's, Obviously whatit is.
Mm-hmm, but it's it's anotherway to get your message out
there rather than feeling likeit's an Exploitative thing and
(14:31):
stealing your time at the end ofthe day and exhausting
Speaker 00 (14:34):
and exhaust draining and
Speaker 01 (14:35):
you're like that Well, I didn't make any money
off of that because I didn'tsell any books Well, but you're
building an audience and you'regetting your message out there,
which is what you hoped the bookwould do Yeah, in some some
cases it's even bigger than whatthe book will do.
Yeah, so But yeah, I do thinkwe need to think differently
about how we approach this.
Speaker 00 (14:52):
Yeah.
I will say, I think it's sortof like that funnel analogy that
they use in marketing a lot.
There's the top of the funnel,which is really wide.
Right.
And that's where things likesocial media live in terms of
their impact.
But it's also a place where youget really wide and broad and
(15:14):
you try to scale things.
You try to make it big.
That's right.
And that can have an effect.
I used to work in directmarketing and...
That was all about scale andpromoting.
And you only wanted a 2%response.
And you had a business modelthat worked on a 2% to 3%
response rate.
That's so crazy.
Which I happen to remember.
If you sent out a millionmailing pieces, a 2% response is
(15:39):
20,000 books.
That's pretty good.
Which, sure.
Yeah.
So how do you find that model?
Social media is kind of like asimilar model.
Email would be actually morecomparable.
But that's a little furtherdown the funnel, where the
funnel's a little narrower.
Speaker 01 (15:54):
the people who are subscribed to your email list.
Speaker 00 (15:57):
Right.
And then you might say speakingis even further down the funnel
where you're making fewerpoints of contact because you
can only do so much of that andthere's only so much demand for
it.
But the connection with thereader is even higher.
The engagement with the readeris higher.
(16:18):
And that's where...
you get the higher percentageof conversions to sales to use
business language.
Sure.
More
Speaker 01 (16:28):
like 10% to 15%, maybe.
Speaker 00 (16:30):
Yeah, yeah.
But they can all be moments, orat all levels of that funnel
can be opportunities forauthentic communication.
Yes,
Speaker 02 (16:40):
yes.
Speaker 00 (16:41):
It's not necessarily marketing.
It is marketing, but it's alsoauthentic communication.
communication.
You know, there's some authorslike Mel Robbins is one.
She's got a bestseller rightnow.
There's one my wife followscalled, oh, I'm forgetting now,
The Holistic Psychologist.
Oh, okay.
And her posts are really strongwith like directive things to
(17:06):
understand and know aboutself-understanding, the way our
minds work, the way we werebrought up.
And it's just, you know, aftera while of keeping on some of
those topics and on what she'san expert in and what she enjoys
writing about, the holisticpsychologist, you learn things.
Now, it's not the same as animmersive book reading
(17:28):
experience, but it still hasvalue.
Yeah, the book's
Speaker 01 (17:33):
where you go for more.
Yeah.
If you're into it.
Yeah, that's really good.
Speaker 00 (17:37):
And this author that Dan's talking about, Sarah
Levine, she's a novelist.
Okay.
But also a, I think an Englishprofessor.
Yeah, yeah, teaches
Speaker 01 (17:45):
grammar, I think.
Speaker 00 (17:46):
Right, right, right.
Yeah, word nerd.
Yeah, our kind of people.
She found...
She found something that sheenjoyed doing, which was making
videos.
And I can't remember whichsocial media platform.
Oh, it was actually forSubstack.
Was it?
Okay.
She's posting her videos on, orthey haven't figured that part
out yet.
They're just, you know, she'sworking on the videos.
Speaker 01 (18:05):
What's the correct platform for the release?
Speaker 00 (18:07):
But she enjoyed sharing tips about grammar.
Yeah.
And she started in the bathtub.
Yeah.
But then it was like, well.
Where do we go from here?
Now, does every one of herposts need to be from the
bathtub?
That's a lot of.
That'd be a lot of baths.
A lot of baths, a lot ofprune-like skin.
But
Speaker 01 (18:25):
then Dan helped her to kind of think outside the box
there and go, okay, let's justdo strange, like maybe on the
bus or on a train.
Speaker 00 (18:34):
Which is also capturing her in everyday
moments.
Exactly.
Which is getting back to thatword authenticity.
Speaker 01 (18:39):
Which is a fun idea to say a grammar teacher is
going to be giving you a littletakeaway from a rooftop bar or
something.
Yeah, I think that's very coolbecause is doing what she wanted
to do which is bring hermessage to the masses and most
people I think that's what I'mtrying to be an interpreter as
an editor typically to an expertin a particular topic and
(19:02):
helping them make it moreaccessible to as many readers as
possible and there's some giveand take on that obviously in
terms of like how you defineyour message and what types of
readers you want to get ifyou're a teacher or someone
you're not necessarily goingafter you know the children
you're going after the adultsand how do you teach this um but
yeah um even aside from parsingthat that too much i think you
(19:26):
can get really granular about itand then lose the authentic
voice and i've seen that happenover and over and i was saying
before we started uh recordinghere it feels as though that was
happening in um what were wecalling it, the conventional
publishing world, much moreoften than what I've found
(19:49):
working after being in a bighouse situation with individual
authors and trying to coach themin ways to be more
authentically public.
accessible in their delivery ofthis information bringing it
down to grassroots level I thinkthat's what I'm enjoying so
much about my life now as anindependent book coach and
(20:12):
editor I don't have to ascribeto the typical conventional way
of doing things I can help themI mean, find new audiences, yes,
but dig down more deeply intothat audience.
And I find that the morespecific you get, often the more
relevant it becomes, the moreuniversal it can feel to that
(20:35):
audience because you're beingmore yourself.
Speaker 00 (20:37):
Yeah.
You know?
There's something to that.
In the case of Sarah Levine,it's interesting because she's a
novelist.
thinking about how she's goingto promote her books and sell
more books.
But what she decides to do forposting is post about grammar.
Right.
Yeah, that's interesting.
Because she's a teacher.
(20:58):
Right.
So that fit her.
And that's what she knows.
That's what she geeks outabout.
Yeah.
And the novels themselves aremore of an outgrowth of that.
Speaker 01 (21:06):
Yeah.
Would it be better, I mean,just hypothetically, would it be
better for her to have anonfiction book that's about
teaching grammar?
Like, say it was called WordNerd and how to use grammar in
your everyday life or somethinglike this.
Do you think that would be astronger sell?
I mean, just given whatyou've...
Speaker 00 (21:23):
Yeah,
Speaker 01 (21:23):
of course.
We're nonfiction people, soit's probably we're biased,
but...
Speaker 00 (21:27):
But then it's not fiction and it's not stories.
And I think that's where wekind of...
tend to break down is that wedon't see like that's like her
writing fiction and wanting topromote it and then her talking
about grammar seems like twodifferent seems disjointed right
but maybe it's not maybe it'snot because that's what brings
(21:47):
her passion that's what bringsher personality out and that's
what people respond to in videosposted on social media yeah so
that makes her interesting thatmakes her fun and different and
different she probably has herown style and she probably uses
examples from her fictionwriting sure or from other
(22:09):
fiction writing there you gothat helps so yeah and then I
think perhaps there's somethingendemic to readers of fiction
where they care about thingslike grammar and language.
That's
Speaker 01 (22:21):
true.
It's literary fiction, too.
I'm remembering.
Is it?
Okay.
So that does make more sense.
It's still something of a sidedoor into talking about literary
fiction, right?
Right.
So I think there's something tothat as well in that Dan
understands.
You don't want to just gostraight forward and talk about
your novel and the characters init.
That's...
not as interesting.
(22:42):
Right.
Talking about grammar in thebathtub.
Speaker 00 (22:45):
But how do you apply that to other contexts?
Like, let's say you're aspiritual nonfiction writer.
You know, What do you talkabout on social media?
What interests you?
I often bring up Barbara BrownTaylor, and I'm not even that
connected to her stuff rightnow.
(23:05):
I'm not reading her stuff, butI do see her Substack posts.
But she's a good example.
And she writes a lot about herfarm life.
And maybe she's outrightwriting about that in her most
recent book.
I'm not sure.
But I think what makes itinteresting is she's writing
about maybe the peace and theconnection to nature.
(23:26):
Nature, definitely.
That she's finding in her farmlife.
And that makes her interesting.
Yes.
And that makes people moreinterested in her as a thinker,
as an evaluator, as someone whocan express spiritual meaning in
the world that we live intoday.
We see that a lot.
And then, oh, there's her biothat mentions her book that
(23:48):
maybe the book talks aboutsomething completely different.
Maybe it's about a trip shetook to, you know, Iceland or
something.
Learned a lot of things.
So those things, farm life inIceland might be disconnected,
but I think people can still seethe whole pattern there without
(24:08):
having to think about itoutright.
Yeah.
Speaker 01 (24:11):
You know, that's almost an underlying literary
metaphor that's gone...
I mean, I was saying we seethat in our side of the industry
a lot.
Talking about spiritualmatters...
is uncomfortable when you'recoming out of what used to be
kind of a fundamentalist or justhigh control.
I've liked that term recently,high control religious
(24:33):
environment.
You don't want to talk aboutit.
You don't want to talk becausethat's all you do in those
environments is talk about yourfaith and talk about your faith
walk and all of that.
So nature and I've heard theword rootedness, like getting
back to our roots, right?
And original ideas, evenauthentic as a word is very
(24:53):
useful.
It's just, it's rich.
And we're trying to bring backsome richness to a spiritual
pursuit and extract some of theless authentic, more
commodified, and sort ofAmericanized version of
spiritual practice.
So I think, yeah, nature and...
Speaker 00 (25:12):
Just look at an example of yourself, if you
don't mind me shifting that,pointing it back toward you.
You know, you're working on andalmost have completed...
Yeah, I know.
A work of fiction.
Right.
Right?
Right.
And I won't say anything aboutit.
Well, who knows what it is.
I'll let you say what you wantto say there.
But then you also post things,particularly you do long posts
(25:35):
on Facebook.
Speaker 01 (25:36):
I do, yeah.
Speaker 00 (25:37):
But they're not the same thing.
You're not posting the storiesfrom the novel on Facebook.
Speaker 01 (25:43):
No.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, it's it's the ideas thatdrive some of the
characterizations that I'musing.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
And sometimes you see thingsculturally, too, that that are
relevant to what you're writingabout.
And then you just comment onthat, you know, because there's
maybe an underlying pain pointor attention or there's I mean,
there's so much ideology outthere now that I just I like to
(26:05):
point at it and say, you know,this is this is not.
ostensibly what Christianitywas meant to be about.
This is more American.
There's just a difference therein terms of the cultural
understanding of what isChristian and what is American.
We're having a real debateabout that ideologically in
America
Speaker 00 (26:21):
right now.
What are we deconstructing?
Is it Christianity or is itfrickin' America, everybody?
Or is it American?
Speaker 01 (26:25):
Yeah, exactly.
It's the
Speaker 00 (26:27):
cultural stuff around America.
Speaker 01 (26:29):
Right.
If you were a Christian in anyother time, in any other place
in the world, it wouldn't looklike this.
Let's just talk about that.
That's what I'd like to postabout The novel, I mean, it
grows out of that because it'sabout my early experience,
fictionalized, and a charactertrying to figure out, like,
which is the real Christianity?
(26:51):
Like, what does that mean?
And of course you can't unpackit because it's, it's so
particular.
It's so different.
And, and ultimately, you know,I mean, don't give away the end
of the novel.
Basically it just decides that,you know, you've got to live
your life and enjoy it.
And I think that's where a lotof people come to.
I mean, it's not, that is a bigtheme right now.
Deeper than that.
Yeah.
(27:11):
It's like the, the ThomasMerton approach to being a monk,
like just, you know, or brotherLawrence, like peel potatoes
and wash dishes and love God inthe midst of that.
Right.
It doesn't have, it doesn'thave to be like, it's,
complicated as we make it.
But to your example aboutBarbara Brown Taylor, I think
talking about nature and gettingback into the roots of where we
(27:33):
come from, just in terms ofbeing skin sacks, we
Speaker 00 (27:40):
are mortal.
And we're all mortals.
That definitely reduces us tojust basically, that is what we
are.
We're skin sacks.
You're going to be warm food.
The world is 4.3 billion yearsold, everybody.
We are just skin sacks.
Come on.
Exactly.
Get over yourself.
Speaker 01 (27:54):
Yeah, you don't have to make it so...
High and mighty, I guess.
Yeah.
It's very Buddhist.
Yeah.
Yeah, I appreciate herBuddhism.
But yeah, we could list a tonof authors who go into that
space and just approach their, Iguess, publicity or their more
public-facing self.
Speaker 00 (28:11):
But I think just let's take the example of you
for a minute.
Like your posts, particularlyon Facebook, they establish you
as...
a thinker, a cultural critic,maybe within a very specific
arena.
Not someone who's writingop-eds for the New York Times.
(28:33):
You can be thoughtful about theworld that we live in, a
noticer.
There's a very big space thatcan be occupied between being a
learned, seminary-trained pastortrying to talk about spiritual
themes and the everyday person,and sometimes that relationship
(28:58):
is very fraught with big issues,especially in American
Christianity, of hierarchy andpower, and a, what's the right
word, disempowerment of theeveryday person.
And I'm not just talking aboutLuther and priesthood of all
believers and so on, but becausesometimes everyday people will
(29:21):
in this literalism movement thatwe have in American religion
will take priesthood of allbelievers to mean, oh, I'm an
expert on the Bible just likeanybody else.
And that's a whole other thing.
But being able to sort of be awhole person and think about
your relational ethics, thinkabout how things affect you,
(29:41):
you're doing that andestablishing an authority there
that is needed but also I thinkpoints people in the direction
of what else does he have tosay?
He's got a book.
That talks about these thingsfrom a fiction point of view.
You're not just a storytellerand a novelist.
(30:04):
You're a thinker.
And that's how you're showingup authentically on social
media.
And you enjoy doing thoseposts.
So that should tell yousomething.
And people are picking up onthat.
And that's how you're going tosell books eventually.
I
Speaker 01 (30:18):
hope so.
And hopefully not justexclusively to...
I'm not even sure.
It wasn't even conscious.
Why Facebook?
Because honestly, I've wantedto leave that so often.
Speaker 00 (30:29):
And that's the best way.
If it's not conscious, if youcan figure that out.
I was talking to an authoryesterday about that.
I was saying to her that you doposts almost like it looks like
you're doing it on anunconscious level.
Speaker 01 (30:41):
Yeah.
And I think that's brilliant.
Well, thank you.
I'm not trying to do it.
Speaker 00 (30:47):
Well, I've seen that to her, not you, but that
applies to you.
No,
Speaker 01 (30:50):
yeah, exactly.
I think it is something thatultimately that's what I'm
trying to get to is thatauthentic space of like I didn't
even consciously think aboutwriting this.
It just came out.
This is something that I talkabout
Speaker 00 (31:05):
with my office a lot.
But not impulsively.
Not impulsively.
No, no, no.
That's very different.
Not
Speaker 01 (31:09):
in a...
It depends where it comes from,right?
So the motive that I'm startingwith is themes.
I see a connection with aparticular event that just
happened that's a newsworthyitem to talk about, and it
connects to a theme that I thinkwe need to explore.
Speaker 00 (31:28):
Not an inflammatory theme.
Not
Speaker 01 (31:29):
an inflammatory way, and typically I'm not trying to
go from one side or the other.
I'm honestly trying to be amoderate, or at least be a
mediator or a bridge.
I think of that very often.
How can I bridge the gap herebetween what it seems like some
people are missing each othertalking about?
How can we talk about the realissue here, which is that we all
have problems, or that we'reall not sure what's going on,
(31:52):
and we want to be so certain.
We want to have an idea of,will we have the right answer,
and we're going to go forwardwith it.
We all want to be right.
And I often want to say, well,is it more important to be
right, or is it more importantto be kind?
And how do we be kind first?
And if we can do that, thenwe're doing at least no harm as
we go forward, like the Mr.
(32:12):
Rogers approach to life that Itry to take.
But then let's also talk aboutsomething.
Let's also be...
Like what Barbara Brown Taylorwould talk about, like learning
in the dark.
I love her approach to thingsbecause it's like we all have
some darkness.
We all have experienced somedarkness, some grief, some of
the things that make it reallydifficult to connect with other
(32:33):
people about.
But if you don't fear it, ifyou will go forward with it
open-handedly and talk about ithonestly, then you can make a
connection with someone ratherthan feeling like you're
superior to them.
Like that's such a cheap way tofeel good.
Speaker 00 (32:48):
Like you've
Speaker 01 (32:48):
mastered your darkness.
Yeah, like give me a break.
No one has.
And anyone who's telling youthey have is lying to
Speaker 00 (32:54):
you.
In
Speaker 01 (32:54):
fact, your darkness is where you can find some
creativity.
Some of the light.
Exactly right.
Yeah.
And that's where it shows thebrightest quite often.
So if we can do that as acommunity, at least in a small
community, I mean, the peoplewho read my Facebook posts,
there's not a lot of them, butthe people who...
More than me.
You have more than me.
Yeah.
The people who comment on it,you know, they're wonderful
(33:16):
thinkers because they actuallyare willing to engage with
something that's a littledeeper.
than your typical Facebookpost, right?
And hopefully is at least anoff-ramp from the typical
cultural freeway or superhighwayof just get mad at the people
across the table from you.
Speaker 00 (33:34):
That's a great word, off-ramp.
You're causing people to stop,pause, go off of the mainstream
superhighway.
That's what we're all trying todo.
And I think that signals tothem that maybe I want to read
60 75,000 word manuscript alonger
Speaker 01 (33:53):
form
Speaker 00 (33:53):
because I can live for two weeks of book reading
where I'm in an off-ramp That'steaching me something about
myself sure or helping me thinkthrough some
Speaker 01 (34:01):
and if you're that kind of person who's already
doing that and already enjoyingit Well, then that that's like a
signal to you.
Mm-hmm to go.
Oh, this is this is someone whohas more to say
Speaker 00 (34:10):
So we're talking about something that's very
different than Here's a cover.
Here's my book cover.
Right.
Speaker 01 (34:15):
Right.
Speaker 00 (34:16):
Here's what my story is about.
Here's a cover
Speaker 01 (34:18):
copy or
Speaker 00 (34:19):
yeah.
We're talking about some interms of how you apply yourself
at that top of the funnel,social media level, if not
further, a little further downan email level and sure.
And so on.
Speaker 01 (34:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
First steps I think isidentifying what makes you want
to do this.
Cause that's where I start withmotive.
And, and I think I said likepart of the issue for me is, is
figuring out, uh, is this, isthis a pure motive for me to
want to write a post about, oris this coming from me?
Coming from me in the sense oflike, like what I've just
(34:51):
experienced.
And, and, you know, typicallyyou're trying to, to merge
those, those things.
But, but I said the word, yeah,Not intentional.
I hate the word intentional, bythe way.
I much prefer like integrated.
And if you're being integrativewith what you're experiencing
now to what you're like, I'mlooking at it as in terms of a
theme.
Is this an interesting themethat I want to explore?
(35:12):
Is this something that'sbringing up something from my
past that I could share thatmight be relevant to people now?
Those types of thoughts arewhere I start in terms of the
funnel.
And then from there, hopefully,I mean, as conversation gets
started, as other people connectwith it, they're like, oh,
yeah, me too.
I felt that way.
Then I can start to refine thatidea.
And hopefully that, you know,makes its way into, you know, an
(35:36):
email or a sub stack orsomething a little more pointed
and direct.
Speaker 00 (35:40):
That's really good.
Like not liking the wordintentional, which sounds like.
you've got something to sell.
You've got a program you wantto give people.
It's like an agenda.
And that's not what's workingon social media.
That might be appropriatefor...
People see it a mile away.
You don't want to do that.
Other spaces, right.
Yeah.
Where they're paying for aworkshop or something like that.
(36:01):
Sure.
You want that.
Speaker 01 (36:02):
If they've already opted in, give them what they
paid for.
Right.
But not at the top of thefunnel.
Speaker 00 (36:07):
But integrative is more about where are we now in
this present moment on thislittle tiny device device on
this tiny little social mediapost that will live in memory
for about 20 seconds.
Speaker 01 (36:21):
As soon as they scroll past it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What's going to grab someoneand say, this is different.
Right.
Yeah.
I think that's, that's oftenwhat we're starting with at the
top of the funnel.
Speaker 00 (36:32):
And being integrative is, is about being
in the present moment.
Um, being honest.
Right.
Not, not trying to, you know,just, just having a, being more
like a conversation, um, Whichis kind of like what we're doing
in this podcast, too, by theway.
I've been thinking about that.
Exactly.
Because we're not coming...
We're not trying to sellsomething.
Yeah, I mean, we didn't comehere with a big plan of what we
(36:53):
were going to talk about.
Right.
But we know that when we talk,things come out.
Things are generated.
Yeah, because we've been doingthis privately to just sort of
like support each other.
Right.
And we felt, oh, well, maybe wecould take this into a medium
as well.
Speaker 01 (37:07):
And that gets to something I always tell the
authors, that they're not buyingthe book.
They're not buying the topic.
They're buying...
you the person they want toknow who you are what makes you
tick and and why are they doingthat well it's because they saw
something that was authenticthere that they're going how do
i define my life how do i livenow that person's found a way to
live i really like the way theylive i want to learn more about
(37:30):
that right that's why they'recoming to the book and that's
that's a very different place tobe than if you're like looking
how to sell more more books Soanyway, um, yeah, we always get
to a really good spot and thenwe need to stop.
Yeah.
Speaker 00 (37:45):
Well, this is, this is very, actually, I've really
enjoyed this.
Um, but if you're, if you're anauthor figuring out that what
authenticity means to be inonline platforms, it's there,
seek it, but you better be doingit two or three times a week
and you better be doing it onthree, four platforms and you
better be the publisher.
Yeah, that's right.
Well, you can also be, um,systematic about it.
(38:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Tuesdays
Speaker 01 (38:09):
and Thursdays or whatever.
Speaker 00 (38:10):
There is a, there's a psychologist, Eric Erickson
from the, from the mid 20thcentury.
He wrote child in society, verypopular, but he had this phrase
called discipline subjectivity.
Um, and that was, it was likethe Margaret Mead concept.
I don't know if she invented itof participant observation.
Speaker 01 (38:26):
No, that's great.
Yeah.
Speaker 00 (38:26):
But I think in social media it's, it's how do
you be disciplined and, andunconscious about it at the same
time.
Both of those things.
Yeah.
That's right.
Playful.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 01 (38:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That, that isn't easy.
It's not easy for anyone, but Iwould argue that the best
authors, the authors that Ienjoy the most are doing that.
Speaker 00 (38:46):
If you set a goal for it, but you're, you can hold
it loosely.
Yeah.
it at least prompts you to getstarted and then the playfulness
can kick in.
Yeah.
But sometimes if you just waitfor the playfulness to come, it
won't come.
Speaker 01 (39:00):
No, I think that's true.
Yeah.
It starts with kind of takingthat first step and maybe that's
uncomfortable for a lot ofpeople.
I mean, that's in the Dan Blankarticle too.
So yeah.
Yeah.
Do check that out.
I'll put it in the show notes.
Yeah.
And yeah, look forward totalking next time and keep on
the journey, my friends.
Speaker 00 (39:16):
Thank you.
All right.
Thanks for listening.
Thank you, Mick.
All right.
Thanks, David.
Thanks for letting me ask youquestions.
All right.
See you later.
Bye.
Hey, this is Publishing Disrupted.
Publishing Disrupted is thename of the podcast that we do.
Yeah, you were disrupted, as you started saying that. You disrupted yourself.
That's good.
We need to disrupt ourselves.
Wait a second. What is this podcast? Wedo! And yeah, we're two former
Christian publishingprofessionals.
(00:21):
Still mostly professional, Iguess, in this place, but former
Christian publishingprofessionals.
Trying to talk about the upsand downs of publishing in
general and moving toward theindependent book market.
That was not the usual intro.
Speaker 00 (00:37):
No, that's fine.
I think you just left out yourname for those who haven't
listened to the podcast before.
I'm Mick Silva, editor Mick Silva.
I'm David Morris, publisher and literary agent.
That's right. So that's who we are. And we come from, as I said, the Christian publishing behemoth industry.
Yeah, our old selves.
(00:58):
And yeah, we're reinventing.
So a lot of people are in thisboat with us.
We keep finding them all thetime.
And we just hope to, I don'tknow, make a space for these
people and trying to find, youknow, how to reinvent and do it
well and do it authentically.
Like that's my word for theday, probably authentic.
(01:19):
Yeah.
We're gonna get into a littlebit of from last time we talked
about we wanted to move intowell, just continue talking
about some of the fun changesthat have been going on and dig
in a little bit more on how todo this authentically.
That's kind of where my mind'sat.
(01:40):
But you've been doing sometraveling.
You were at the indieconference.
Yeah.
So I founded Lake Drive Books.
It's an independent bookpublishing company, very
grassroots, scrappy, trying toappeal to the ex-evangelical
post- evangelical audience,self-help as well.
(02:03):
I have a psychology background,I want to publish more
psychologists.
So, I attended the IndependentBook Publishers Association
meeting.
They had their annualpublishing university in
Minneapolis a couple weeks ago.
It's a good book spot.
Yeah, it is, actually.
Independent books.
(02:25):
A bunch of publishers there,believe it or not, and even like
a book depository or something,some kind of museum about books
is there.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, you know, whatstruck me was, I mean, it's a...
It's a conference that was wellattended.
I think they have well over3,000 members.
(02:45):
I happen to know the CEO,Andrea Fleck Nisbet of IBPA, and
I heard her remark recentlythat a third of the books that
are produced in the US are byIBPA.
independent publishers.
Wow.
Yeah, yeah.
(03:06):
Now, granted, a lot of that'svanity, but then again, there's
vanity publishing at all levels,believe it or not.
People don't know that, butit's true.
Absolutely.
But there is a fair amount, Ithink, too, at the indie level,
definitely.
Yeah.
So this is a pretty widelyranging group from...
um, authors who want to takematters into their own hands and
(03:27):
do DIY publishing.
And some get really good at it,especially in the fiction area.
Speaker 01 (03:32):
Is that right?
Speaker 00 (03:32):
Yeah.
Fiction.
Yeah.
Cause fiction is much more likeit's a, it's appealing to power
readers who consume a lot.
And right.
Right.
You know, there's a lot oftactics that are going on these
days, like publishing series ofbooks is a, is a great marketing
tactic in and of itself.
Um, to, uh, people who are justpublishing because of interests
that they're really, you know,they're really zeroed in on
(03:54):
whether it's children's books orbooks about animals, history
books, what have you, somethingthat's a passion for them.
They may be writers withintheir publishing enterprise or
they may be publishing plenty ofother people.
I'm one of those in a waybecause my passion is for
reaching those who havestruggled with institutional
(04:14):
religion and they're trying tofind their way forward in terms
of identity, in terms of whatthey define as spirituality.
Speaker 01 (04:21):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 00 (04:22):
What really surprised me about it is just
how vibrant it was.
Some of the people there wereindie publishers who've been in
it for a while and they're quitesuccessful and they're probably
$10 million annual revenuecompanies or higher.
Wow, that's great.
But there's a lot ofindependent startup types there.
(04:43):
People with a very wide rangeof publishing knowledge, some
who didn't even know what BISACcodes are, which are those codes
that...
You know, you may not know whatthey are as an everyday person,
but you might see themsometimes on the back of a book
where there's like categorieswith slashes.
Speaker 01 (05:01):
Which booksellers used to then basically shelve
the books.
Right.
Where they go.
Speaker 00 (05:06):
Right.
But yeah.
And there's a whole discussionabout that kind of thing too.
But I was just surprised with,you know, I saw...
Just a lot of vibrancy, a lotof talk about artificial
intelligence and how do we makesense of what's going on with
that.
It's definitely being usedwidely in the publishing
industry.
I was really surprised at howmany colleagues I ran into.
(05:34):
I saw people there I didn'tknow would be there.
I ran into someone who's insales and we started talking and
we may actually...
going to try to figure out ifwe can work together yeah that's
great i was really reallypleasantly surprised about that
um you know for me it's more ofa place to go and just let new
ideas germinate you know how todo the business had a great
(05:56):
great conversation aboutaudiobooks nice um that's big
yeah yeah um i mean they'rethey're a much more active
category and The technology isthere.
It's a lot easier to make audiobooks than it used to be.
Typically, they're veryexpensive to produce up front.
Right.
It's gotten a lot easier.
And there's a pretty good skillset that goes along with that,
(06:19):
too, that's separate from usualpublishing skill sets.
Voice talent and recording.
Yeah.
Engineering the files.
Yeah.
So that was super helpful forme.
But just being around otherpeople and sharing stories and
how are you doing things.
Speaker 01 (06:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 00 (06:36):
I think that's one of the things I've enjoyed the
most about being in thepublishing industry is being
able to be with other people inpublishing.
Because it's It's such amysterious profession.
It is.
There's so many facets.
There's so many contexts.
There's so much change that hasgone on.
So, um, I just, that, that partwas just very, you know,
(06:57):
nourishing.
Sp (06:59):
That's good. I like the word vibrant.
I'm, I'm seeing that more andmore too.
And, you know, I was just onvacation in Portland, Oregon
and, uh, seeing family andstuff.
Of course we go to, you know,Powell's and we stop into the,
the indie bookstores and it'sjust great to see how much is
available now.
I mean, in what you say, likedrilling down on specific
(07:19):
topics, it's almost like endlesshow specific you can get on
particular just niche interests.
And I've always loved thatabout publishing, but to be able
to see that that's stillhappening in a world dominated
by the big five and Amazon.
Yeah.
Anyway, I mean, we couldprobably go on a while, but you
(07:43):
also saw a really cool article,I think, on Substack, Dan Blank.
I don't know if you want toshare some of your takeaways on
that, but like When you sent itto me, of course, I've read damn
blank a while and always gottengood stuff out of it, as I know
you have.
But trying to make this shift,you need some of these people
(08:05):
who are a little bit of anindependent vessel who help to
interpret some of the more, Iguess...
monolithic That can seem like amonolithic culture when you're
getting into publishing and andthat's been my experience But
now as I as I age and get andget older in this I recognize
you can be pretty authentic inhow you approach and go after
(08:27):
what it is that interests you,how you approach publishing.
Speaker 00 (08:31):
And getting yourself out there.
Exactly. And still make money,still be able to do this
profitably.
Maybe not, you know, to thelevels that you would dream and
love to have, but maybe also, Ithink there's no limit to what
you could be able to dodepending on, you know, your
particular skill sets andinterests.
(08:52):
So, Dan Blank was helpingsomeone, and he's basically a
marketer, a coach, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 01 (09:00):
Helps people.
Speaker 00 (09:01):
He is one of those people out there who is helping
authors with their marketingwork, with their platforming
work.
Speaker 01 (09:08):
They're just kind of figuring this out.
How do I get a book in front ofpeople, and how do I get them
to see me?
Speaker 00 (09:13):
Maybe it's better to say their audience development.
It's not just marketing.
The word marketing can feelpretty...
you know, loaded and sure.
Um, it, but it's, it's muchmore, it's much more than that.
Um, how, how do you, how do youestablish an audience?
How do you become known?
(09:33):
How do you, how do you build ononce you're known?
How do you build on that?
Right.
Right.
He's one of those folks that,that, I think he's actually one
of the more thoughtful ones whobrings us deeper, wider sense of
framework around what is itthat you're actually doing.
That whole idea of creativeshift is his title.
(09:54):
And I don't know where he cameup with that, but we were
talking before we startedrecording here that I think a
lot of the creative shift isabout how do you think about
these other mediums?
And I think that's what he'shelping authors do.
The digital mediums are a newmedium.
(10:15):
Like this, a podcast.
Yeah.
They're a medium in their ownright.
Being on social media or havingan email list, that's not...
If you think of that as justmarketing, you're missing the
point.
Right.
Those places are opportunitiesto make an impact.
(10:35):
They're different places.
But they have caused us, Ithink, to reevaluate what is the
medium of a book.
I think books are stillvaluable.
People don't realize it, butpeople still buy print books
more than they do e-book andaudio, by far, depending on the
(10:56):
category.
Fiction is higher with digitaleditions.
But the way we value the mediumof books...
is to needs to be reevaluated,and to be simply cynical about
social media.
And there's a lot of reasons tobe cynical about social media.
(11:18):
People use it, they abuse it,however, whatever you want to
call it.
But I think what Dan tries todo is help people see that's a
place where you can show up asyourself.
It's just different.
Right.
Yeah.
And so how do you value that?
How do you understand that?
I mean, how long have we hadsocial media?
(11:39):
You know, 15 years in a seriousway, maybe?
Sure.
Yeah.
I think we're still kind ofrewiring ourselves about how to
work with it.
And it certainly has changed alot as a landscape.
Well, right.
Yeah.
Speaker 01 (11:53):
Different platforms have different, you know,
characteristics and qualities.
Unknown (12:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 01 (12:01):
Yeah, no, I think, well, and, and for Dan, I think
I say marketing just cause thatthat's the big overall, you
know, awning over what he does,but, but yeah, it's, it's
publicity training.
It's, it's a lot of likefiguring out, um, and
authentic's the word.
So I'm just going to go back toit, but like figuring out who
you authentically are as awriter, as an artist, as a
(12:23):
creator person, and then, uh,honing that or fitting it to the
particular, uh, outlets and,and platforms.
And I think there's just a lotof work involved there, like to
figure that out, first of all.
So we start typically with avision form, at least I do.
And I know you have this on thepublishing side too, a vision
(12:45):
form that helps to, and whateveryou call it, maybe it's a
publishing document, but ithelps to kind of identify why
are you doing this?
What is it that's in your...
you know, wheelhouse to thenput out in terms of helping
people get to know you.
And then we'll, we'll fit thatto the platform, whether that's
a podcast or, I mean, typicallyI think you're going to need to
(13:06):
have a sub stack or somethingthat gets your words out there.
Even if you're just doingexcerpts from the print
material, that's fine.
But, um, you know, for somepeople, they're going to be very
personable.
Others are going to be, uh,erudite and, and, you know,
teach as a professor.
Um, his example in here is aprofessor at graduate level, but
wants to bring her message downto earth and make it more
(13:28):
accessible to people.
So she's...
teaching grammar from a bathtuband taking a video of that just
because it's interesting andfun.
And so you can build anaudience based off of this
because that's a funjuxtaposition.
It takes a little while to comeup with that format.
But once you do, you can putthose videos on TikTok or on
(13:48):
Instagram or whatever and figureout how to do that.
It's a little bit of work, butit is ultimately way more fun.
What I came away with from thispost, and we should probably
put it in the notes for theshow, but I came away with
understanding that what you'reauthentically into and what your
book is about can be alaunching pad for this,
(14:10):
basically building a wideraudience through these mediums,
whether that's a podcast orSubstack or Facebook.
And it doesn't have to just bea marketing device to sell your
book.
That's, that's, Obviously whatit is.
Mm-hmm, but it's it's anotherway to get your message out
there rather than feeling likeit's an Exploitative thing and
(14:31):
stealing your time at the end ofthe day and exhausting
Speaker 00 (14:34):
and exhaust draining and
Speaker 01 (14:35):
you're like that Well, I didn't make any money
off of that because I didn'tsell any books Well, but you're
building an audience and you'regetting your message out there,
which is what you hoped the bookwould do Yeah, in some some
cases it's even bigger than whatthe book will do.
Yeah, so But yeah, I do thinkwe need to think differently
about how we approach this.
Speaker 00 (14:52):
Yeah.
I will say, I think it's sortof like that funnel analogy that
they use in marketing a lot.
There's the top of the funnel,which is really wide.
Right.
And that's where things likesocial media live in terms of
their impact.
But it's also a place where youget really wide and broad and
(15:14):
you try to scale things.
You try to make it big.
That's right.
And that can have an effect.
I used to work in directmarketing and...
That was all about scale andpromoting.
And you only wanted a 2%response.
And you had a business modelthat worked on a 2% to 3%
response rate.
That's so crazy.
Which I happen to remember.
If you sent out a millionmailing pieces, a 2% response is
(15:39):
20,000 books.
That's pretty good.
Which, sure.
Yeah.
So how do you find that model?
Social media is kind of like asimilar model.
Email would be actually morecomparable.
But that's a little furtherdown the funnel, where the
funnel's a little narrower.
Speaker 01 (15:54):
the people who are subscribed to your email list.
Speaker 00 (15:57):
Right.
And then you might say speakingis even further down the funnel
where you're making fewerpoints of contact because you
can only do so much of that andthere's only so much demand for
it.
But the connection with thereader is even higher.
The engagement with the readeris higher.
(16:18):
And that's where...
you get the higher percentageof conversions to sales to use
business language.
Sure.
More
Speaker 01 (16:28):
like 10% to 15%, maybe.
Speaker 00 (16:30):
Yeah, yeah.
But they can all be moments, orat all levels of that funnel
can be opportunities forauthentic communication.
Yes,
Speaker 02 (16:40):
yes.
Speaker 00 (16:41):
It's not necessarily marketing.
It is marketing, but it's alsoauthentic communication.
communication.
You know, there's some authorslike Mel Robbins is one.
She's got a bestseller rightnow.
There's one my wife followscalled, oh, I'm forgetting now,
The Holistic Psychologist.
Oh, okay.
And her posts are really strongwith like directive things to
(17:06):
understand and know aboutself-understanding, the way our
minds work, the way we werebrought up.
And it's just, you know, aftera while of keeping on some of
those topics and on what she'san expert in and what she enjoys
writing about, the holisticpsychologist, you learn things.
Now, it's not the same as animmersive book reading
(17:28):
experience, but it still hasvalue.
Yeah, the book's
Speaker 01 (17:33):
where you go for more.
Yeah.
If you're into it.
Yeah, that's really good.
Speaker 00 (17:37):
And this author that Dan's talking about, Sarah
Levine, she's a novelist.
Okay.
But also a, I think an Englishprofessor.
Yeah, yeah, teaches
Speaker 01 (17:45):
grammar, I think.
Speaker 00 (17:46):
Right, right, right.
Yeah, word nerd.
Yeah, our kind of people.
She found...
She found something that sheenjoyed doing, which was making
videos.
And I can't remember whichsocial media platform.
Oh, it was actually forSubstack.
Was it?
Okay.
She's posting her videos on, orthey haven't figured that part
out yet.
They're just, you know, she'sworking on the videos.
Speaker 01 (18:05):
What's the correct platform for the release?
Speaker 00 (18:07):
But she enjoyed sharing tips about grammar.
Yeah.
And she started in the bathtub.
Yeah.
But then it was like, well.
Where do we go from here?
Now, does every one of herposts need to be from the
bathtub?
That's a lot of.
That'd be a lot of baths.
A lot of baths, a lot ofprune-like skin.
But
Speaker 01 (18:25):
then Dan helped her to kind of think outside the box
there and go, okay, let's justdo strange, like maybe on the
bus or on a train.
Speaker 00 (18:34):
Which is also capturing her in everyday
moments.
Exactly.
Which is getting back to thatword authenticity.
Speaker 01 (18:39):
Which is a fun idea to say a grammar teacher is
going to be giving you a littletakeaway from a rooftop bar or
something.
Yeah, I think that's very coolbecause is doing what she wanted
to do which is bring hermessage to the masses and most
people I think that's what I'mtrying to be an interpreter as
an editor typically to an expertin a particular topic and
(19:02):
helping them make it moreaccessible to as many readers as
possible and there's some giveand take on that obviously in
terms of like how you defineyour message and what types of
readers you want to get ifyou're a teacher or someone
you're not necessarily goingafter you know the children
you're going after the adultsand how do you teach this um but
yeah um even aside from parsingthat that too much i think you
(19:26):
can get really granular about itand then lose the authentic
voice and i've seen that happenover and over and i was saying
before we started uh recordinghere it feels as though that was
happening in um what were wecalling it, the conventional
publishing world, much moreoften than what I've found
(19:49):
working after being in a bighouse situation with individual
authors and trying to coach themin ways to be more
authentically public.
accessible in their delivery ofthis information bringing it
down to grassroots level I thinkthat's what I'm enjoying so
much about my life now as anindependent book coach and
(20:12):
editor I don't have to ascribeto the typical conventional way
of doing things I can help themI mean, find new audiences, yes,
but dig down more deeply intothat audience.
And I find that the morespecific you get, often the more
relevant it becomes, the moreuniversal it can feel to that
(20:35):
audience because you're beingmore yourself.
Speaker 00 (20:37):
Yeah.
You know?
There's something to that.
In the case of Sarah Levine,it's interesting because she's a
novelist.
thinking about how she's goingto promote her books and sell
more books.
But what she decides to do forposting is post about grammar.
Right.
Yeah, that's interesting.
Because she's a teacher.
(20:58):
Right.
So that fit her.
And that's what she knows.
That's what she geeks outabout.
Yeah.
And the novels themselves aremore of an outgrowth of that.
Speaker 01 (21:06):
Yeah.
Would it be better, I mean,just hypothetically, would it be
better for her to have anonfiction book that's about
teaching grammar?
Like, say it was called WordNerd and how to use grammar in
your everyday life or somethinglike this.
Do you think that would be astronger sell?
I mean, just given whatyou've...
Speaker 00 (21:23):
Yeah,
Speaker 01 (21:23):
of course.
We're nonfiction people, soit's probably we're biased,
but...
Speaker 00 (21:27):
But then it's not fiction and it's not stories.
And I think that's where wekind of...
tend to break down is that wedon't see like that's like her
writing fiction and wanting topromote it and then her talking
about grammar seems like twodifferent seems disjointed right
but maybe it's not maybe it'snot because that's what brings
(21:47):
her passion that's what bringsher personality out and that's
what people respond to in videosposted on social media yeah so
that makes her interesting thatmakes her fun and different and
different she probably has herown style and she probably uses
examples from her fictionwriting sure or from other
(22:09):
fiction writing there you gothat helps so yeah and then I
think perhaps there's somethingendemic to readers of fiction
where they care about thingslike grammar and language.
That's
Speaker 01 (22:21):
true.
It's literary fiction, too.
I'm remembering.
Is it?
Okay.
So that does make more sense.
It's still something of a sidedoor into talking about literary
fiction, right?
Right.
So I think there's something tothat as well in that Dan
understands.
You don't want to just gostraight forward and talk about
your novel and the characters init.
That's...
not as interesting.
(22:42):
Right.
Talking about grammar in thebathtub.
Speaker 00 (22:45):
But how do you apply that to other contexts?
Like, let's say you're aspiritual nonfiction writer.
You know, What do you talkabout on social media?
What interests you?
I often bring up Barbara BrownTaylor, and I'm not even that
connected to her stuff rightnow.
(23:05):
I'm not reading her stuff, butI do see her Substack posts.
But she's a good example.
And she writes a lot about herfarm life.
And maybe she's outrightwriting about that in her most
recent book.
I'm not sure.
But I think what makes itinteresting is she's writing
about maybe the peace and theconnection to nature.
(23:26):
Nature, definitely.
That she's finding in her farmlife.
And that makes her interesting.
Yes.
And that makes people moreinterested in her as a thinker,
as an evaluator, as someone whocan express spiritual meaning in
the world that we live intoday.
We see that a lot.
And then, oh, there's her biothat mentions her book that
(23:48):
maybe the book talks aboutsomething completely different.
Maybe it's about a trip shetook to, you know, Iceland or
something.
Learned a lot of things.
So those things, farm life inIceland might be disconnected,
but I think people can still seethe whole pattern there without
(24:08):
having to think about itoutright.
Yeah.
Speaker 01 (24:11):
You know, that's almost an underlying literary
metaphor that's gone...
I mean, I was saying we seethat in our side of the industry
a lot.
Talking about spiritualmatters...
is uncomfortable when you'recoming out of what used to be
kind of a fundamentalist or justhigh control.
I've liked that term recently,high control religious
(24:33):
environment.
You don't want to talk aboutit.
You don't want to talk becausethat's all you do in those
environments is talk about yourfaith and talk about your faith
walk and all of that.
So nature and I've heard theword rootedness, like getting
back to our roots, right?
And original ideas, evenauthentic as a word is very
(24:53):
useful.
It's just, it's rich.
And we're trying to bring backsome richness to a spiritual
pursuit and extract some of theless authentic, more
commodified, and sort ofAmericanized version of
spiritual practice.
So I think, yeah, nature and...
Speaker 00 (25:12):
Just look at an example of yourself, if you
don't mind me shifting that,pointing it back toward you.
You know, you're working on andalmost have completed...
Yeah, I know.
A work of fiction.
Right.
Right?
Right.
And I won't say anything aboutit.
Well, who knows what it is.
I'll let you say what you wantto say there.
But then you also post things,particularly you do long posts
(25:35):
on Facebook.
Speaker 01 (25:36):
I do, yeah.
Speaker 00 (25:37):
But they're not the same thing.
You're not posting the storiesfrom the novel on Facebook.
Speaker 01 (25:43):
No.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, it's it's the ideas thatdrive some of the
characterizations that I'musing.
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
And sometimes you see thingsculturally, too, that that are
relevant to what you're writingabout.
And then you just comment onthat, you know, because there's
maybe an underlying pain pointor attention or there's I mean,
there's so much ideology outthere now that I just I like to
(26:05):
point at it and say, you know,this is this is not.
ostensibly what Christianitywas meant to be about.
This is more American.
There's just a difference therein terms of the cultural
understanding of what isChristian and what is American.
We're having a real debateabout that ideologically in
America
Speaker 00 (26:21):
right now.
What are we deconstructing?
Is it Christianity or is itfrickin' America, everybody?
Or is it American?
Speaker 01 (26:25):
Yeah, exactly.
It's the
Speaker 00 (26:27):
cultural stuff around America.
Speaker 01 (26:29):
Right.
If you were a Christian in anyother time, in any other place
in the world, it wouldn't looklike this.
Let's just talk about that.
That's what I'd like to postabout The novel, I mean, it
grows out of that because it'sabout my early experience,
fictionalized, and a charactertrying to figure out, like,
which is the real Christianity?
(26:51):
Like, what does that mean?
And of course you can't unpackit because it's, it's so
particular.
It's so different.
And, and ultimately, you know,I mean, don't give away the end
of the novel.
Basically it just decides that,you know, you've got to live
your life and enjoy it.
And I think that's where a lotof people come to.
I mean, it's not, that is a bigtheme right now.
Deeper than that.
Yeah.
(27:11):
It's like the, the ThomasMerton approach to being a monk,
like just, you know, or brotherLawrence, like peel potatoes
and wash dishes and love God inthe midst of that.
Right.
It doesn't have, it doesn'thave to be like, it's,
complicated as we make it.
But to your example aboutBarbara Brown Taylor, I think
talking about nature and gettingback into the roots of where we
(27:33):
come from, just in terms ofbeing skin sacks, we
Speaker 00 (27:40):
are mortal.
And we're all mortals.
That definitely reduces us tojust basically, that is what we
are.
We're skin sacks.
You're going to be warm food.
The world is 4.3 billion yearsold, everybody.
We are just skin sacks.
Come on.
Exactly.
Get over yourself.
Speaker 01 (27:54):
Yeah, you don't have to make it so...
High and mighty, I guess.
Yeah.
It's very Buddhist.
Yeah.
Yeah, I appreciate herBuddhism.
But yeah, we could list a tonof authors who go into that
space and just approach their, Iguess, publicity or their more
public-facing self.
Speaker 00 (28:11):
But I think just let's take the example of you
for a minute.
Like your posts, particularlyon Facebook, they establish you
as...
a thinker, a cultural critic,maybe within a very specific
arena.
Not someone who's writingop-eds for the New York Times.
(28:33):
You can be thoughtful about theworld that we live in, a
noticer.
There's a very big space thatcan be occupied between being a
learned, seminary-trained pastortrying to talk about spiritual
themes and the everyday person,and sometimes that relationship
(28:58):
is very fraught with big issues,especially in American
Christianity, of hierarchy andpower, and a, what's the right
word, disempowerment of theeveryday person.
And I'm not just talking aboutLuther and priesthood of all
believers and so on, but becausesometimes everyday people will
(29:21):
in this literalism movement thatwe have in American religion
will take priesthood of allbelievers to mean, oh, I'm an
expert on the Bible just likeanybody else.
And that's a whole other thing.
But being able to sort of be awhole person and think about
your relational ethics, thinkabout how things affect you,
(29:41):
you're doing that andestablishing an authority there
that is needed but also I thinkpoints people in the direction
of what else does he have tosay?
He's got a book.
That talks about these thingsfrom a fiction point of view.
You're not just a storytellerand a novelist.
(30:04):
You're a thinker.
And that's how you're showingup authentically on social
media.
And you enjoy doing thoseposts.
So that should tell yousomething.
And people are picking up onthat.
And that's how you're going tosell books eventually.
I
Speaker 01 (30:18):
hope so.
And hopefully not justexclusively to...
I'm not even sure.
It wasn't even conscious.
Why Facebook?
Because honestly, I've wantedto leave that so often.
Speaker 00 (30:29):
And that's the best way.
If it's not conscious, if youcan figure that out.
I was talking to an authoryesterday about that.
I was saying to her that you doposts almost like it looks like
you're doing it on anunconscious level.
Speaker 01 (30:41):
Yeah.
And I think that's brilliant.
Well, thank you.
I'm not trying to do it.
Speaker 00 (30:47):
Well, I've seen that to her, not you, but that
applies to you.
No,
Speaker 01 (30:50):
yeah, exactly.
I think it is something thatultimately that's what I'm
trying to get to is thatauthentic space of like I didn't
even consciously think aboutwriting this.
It just came out.
This is something that I talkabout
Speaker 00 (31:05):
with my office a lot.
But not impulsively.
Not impulsively.
No, no, no.
That's very different.
Not
Speaker 01 (31:09):
in a...
It depends where it comes from,right?
So the motive that I'm startingwith is themes.
I see a connection with aparticular event that just
happened that's a newsworthyitem to talk about, and it
connects to a theme that I thinkwe need to explore.
Speaker 00 (31:28):
Not an inflammatory theme.
Not
Speaker 01 (31:29):
an inflammatory way, and typically I'm not trying to
go from one side or the other.
I'm honestly trying to be amoderate, or at least be a
mediator or a bridge.
I think of that very often.
How can I bridge the gap herebetween what it seems like some
people are missing each othertalking about?
How can we talk about the realissue here, which is that we all
have problems, or that we'reall not sure what's going on,
(31:52):
and we want to be so certain.
We want to have an idea of,will we have the right answer,
and we're going to go forwardwith it.
We all want to be right.
And I often want to say, well,is it more important to be
right, or is it more importantto be kind?
And how do we be kind first?
And if we can do that, thenwe're doing at least no harm as
we go forward, like the Mr.
(32:12):
Rogers approach to life that Itry to take.
But then let's also talk aboutsomething.
Let's also be...
Like what Barbara Brown Taylorwould talk about, like learning
in the dark.
I love her approach to thingsbecause it's like we all have
some darkness.
We all have experienced somedarkness, some grief, some of
the things that make it reallydifficult to connect with other
(32:33):
people about.
But if you don't fear it, ifyou will go forward with it
open-handedly and talk about ithonestly, then you can make a
connection with someone ratherthan feeling like you're
superior to them.
Like that's such a cheap way tofeel good.
Speaker 00 (32:48):
Like you've
Speaker 01 (32:48):
mastered your darkness.
Yeah, like give me a break.
No one has.
And anyone who's telling youthey have is lying to
Speaker 00 (32:54):
you.
In
Speaker 01 (32:54):
fact, your darkness is where you can find some
creativity.
Some of the light.
Exactly right.
Yeah.
And that's where it shows thebrightest quite often.
So if we can do that as acommunity, at least in a small
community, I mean, the peoplewho read my Facebook posts,
there's not a lot of them, butthe people who...
More than me.
You have more than me.
Yeah.
The people who comment on it,you know, they're wonderful
(33:16):
thinkers because they actuallyare willing to engage with
something that's a littledeeper.
than your typical Facebookpost, right?
And hopefully is at least anoff-ramp from the typical
cultural freeway or superhighwayof just get mad at the people
across the table from you.
Speaker 00 (33:34):
That's a great word, off-ramp.
You're causing people to stop,pause, go off of the mainstream
superhighway.
That's what we're all trying todo.
And I think that signals tothem that maybe I want to read
60 75,000 word manuscript alonger
Speaker 01 (33:53):
form
Speaker 00 (33:53):
because I can live for two weeks of book reading
where I'm in an off-ramp That'steaching me something about
myself sure or helping me thinkthrough some
Speaker 01 (34:01):
and if you're that kind of person who's already
doing that and already enjoyingit Well, then that that's like a
signal to you.
Mm-hmm to go.
Oh, this is this is someone whohas more to say
Speaker 00 (34:10):
So we're talking about something that's very
different than Here's a cover.
Here's my book cover.
Right.
Speaker 01 (34:15):
Right.
Speaker 00 (34:16):
Here's what my story is about.
Here's a cover
Speaker 01 (34:18):
copy or
Speaker 00 (34:19):
yeah.
We're talking about some interms of how you apply yourself
at that top of the funnel,social media level, if not
further, a little further downan email level and sure.
And so on.
Speaker 01 (34:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
First steps I think isidentifying what makes you want
to do this.
Cause that's where I start withmotive.
And, and I think I said likepart of the issue for me is, is
figuring out, uh, is this, isthis a pure motive for me to
want to write a post about, oris this coming from me?
Coming from me in the sense oflike, like what I've just
(34:51):
experienced.
And, and, you know, typicallyyou're trying to, to merge
those, those things.
But, but I said the word, yeah,Not intentional.
I hate the word intentional, bythe way.
I much prefer like integrated.
And if you're being integrativewith what you're experiencing
now to what you're like, I'mlooking at it as in terms of a
theme.
Is this an interesting themethat I want to explore?
(35:12):
Is this something that'sbringing up something from my
past that I could share thatmight be relevant to people now?
Those types of thoughts arewhere I start in terms of the
funnel.
And then from there, hopefully,I mean, as conversation gets
started, as other people connectwith it, they're like, oh,
yeah, me too.
I felt that way.
Then I can start to refine thatidea.
And hopefully that, you know,makes its way into, you know, an
(35:36):
email or a sub stack orsomething a little more pointed
and direct.
Speaker 00 (35:40):
That's really good.
Like not liking the wordintentional, which sounds like.
you've got something to sell.
You've got a program you wantto give people.
It's like an agenda.
And that's not what's workingon social media.
That might be appropriatefor...
People see it a mile away.
You don't want to do that.
Other spaces, right.
Yeah.
Where they're paying for aworkshop or something like that.
(36:01):
Sure.
You want that.
Speaker 01 (36:02):
If they've already opted in, give them what they
paid for.
Right.
But not at the top of thefunnel.
Speaker 00 (36:07):
But integrative is more about where are we now in
this present moment on thislittle tiny device device on
this tiny little social mediapost that will live in memory
for about 20 seconds.
Speaker 01 (36:21):
As soon as they scroll past it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What's going to grab someoneand say, this is different.
Right.
Yeah.
I think that's, that's oftenwhat we're starting with at the
top of the funnel.
Speaker 00 (36:32):
And being integrative is, is about being
in the present moment.
Um, being honest.
Right.
Not, not trying to, you know,just, just having a, being more
like a conversation, um, Whichis kind of like what we're doing
in this podcast, too, by theway.
I've been thinking about that.
Exactly.
Because we're not coming...
We're not trying to sellsomething.
Yeah, I mean, we didn't comehere with a big plan of what we
(36:53):
were going to talk about.
Right.
But we know that when we talk,things come out.
Things are generated.
Yeah, because we've been doingthis privately to just sort of
like support each other.
Right.
And we felt, oh, well, maybe wecould take this into a medium
as well.
Speaker 01 (37:07):
And that gets to something I always tell the
authors, that they're not buyingthe book.
They're not buying the topic.
They're buying...
you the person they want toknow who you are what makes you
tick and and why are they doingthat well it's because they saw
something that was authenticthere that they're going how do
i define my life how do i livenow that person's found a way to
live i really like the way theylive i want to learn more about
(37:30):
that right that's why they'recoming to the book and that's
that's a very different place tobe than if you're like looking
how to sell more more books Soanyway, um, yeah, we always get
to a really good spot and thenwe need to stop.
Yeah.
Speaker 00 (37:45):
Well, this is, this is very, actually, I've really
enjoyed this.
Um, but if you're, if you're anauthor figuring out that what
authenticity means to be inonline platforms, it's there,
seek it, but you better be doingit two or three times a week
and you better be doing it onthree, four platforms and you
better be the publisher.
Yeah, that's right.
Well, you can also be, um,systematic about it.
(38:07):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Tuesdays
Speaker 01 (38:09):
and Thursdays or whatever.
Speaker 00 (38:10):
There is a, there's a psychologist, Eric Erickson
from the, from the mid 20thcentury.
He wrote child in society, verypopular, but he had this phrase
called discipline subjectivity.
Um, and that was, it was likethe Margaret Mead concept.
I don't know if she invented itof participant observation.
Speaker 01 (38:26):
No, that's great.
Yeah.
Speaker 00 (38:26):
But I think in social media it's, it's how do
you be disciplined and, andunconscious about it at the same
time.
Both of those things.
Yeah.
That's right.
Playful.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Speaker 01 (38:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That, that isn't easy.
It's not easy for anyone, but Iwould argue that the best
authors, the authors that Ienjoy the most are doing that.
Speaker 00 (38:46):
If you set a goal for it, but you're, you can hold
it loosely.
Yeah.
it at least prompts you to getstarted and then the playfulness
can kick in.
Yeah.
But sometimes if you just waitfor the playfulness to come, it
won't come.
Speaker 01 (39:00):
No, I think that's true.
Yeah.
It starts with kind of takingthat first step and maybe that's
uncomfortable for a lot ofpeople.
I mean, that's in the Dan Blankarticle too.
So yeah.
Yeah.
Do check that out.
I'll put it in the show notes.
Yeah.
And yeah, look forward totalking next time and keep on
the journey, my friends.
Speaker 00 (39:16):
Thank you.
All right.
Thanks for listening.
Thank you, Mick.
All right.
Thanks, David.
Thanks for letting me ask youquestions.
All right.
See you later.
Bye.
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