June 25, 2025 • 40 mins
In this fifth episode, we get into another fundamental shift in the publishing world: book development. The old playbook of “authority from on high” is dead. Long live the authentic voice!
There's the three elements of book proposals: platform (your ability to reach readers), concept (a current, but time-honored topic), and craft (your “method” and ability to deliver the goods). But the craft must now derive primarily from an authentic voice emerging from your personal process, rather than from presumed or external authority.
Which helps explain why “for the Bible tells me so” doesn’t work so well anymore. Because basically this anti-traditional, anti-establishment culture wants a different kind of authority.
So we then discussed how the three-act story structure can serve even nonfiction authors working to incorporate a more humble, vulnerable approach, and how the ending shouldn’t be neat and tidily resolved, but somewhat ambiguous and inclusive of complexity (i.e. authentic).
Bottom line: readers want to see real life-change in their books these days. So come along and let's get into it!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mick (00:01):
Hey, everybody.
Welcome to the PublishingDisrupted podcast.
I'm Mick Silva.
David (00:06):
And I'm David Morris.
Mick (00:09):
And we are two former Christian publishing experts
exploring the ways that bookpublishing is changing.
Disruption is what we'retalking about.
So...
and mostly how to help writersbest meet the challenge.
But obviously, any professionalwho's trying to come at this at
a more normal level, lessprofessional, more
(00:32):
conversational.
I even said "confessional"recently to my wife.
She's like, oh, that's what youguys are doing in there.
David (00:38):
We do have things to confess as former Christian
publishing professionals.
We have to get things off ourchest.
We're still publishingprofessionals, by the way.
It's just different now.
Mick (00:49):
I told you last time, I tend to be aggressively
informal.
That's just the way I approachlife.
Because I don't like to havepre- And, you know, coming from
the backgrounds that we comefrom as pastor's kids, which we
can probably get into that alittle bit more at some point.
Oh, yeah.
We're sick of pretenses.
We don't like the pretense.
There's a common thread there.
(01:11):
But professionalism, I mean,obviously, you know, you have to
be a professional in thisindustry and particularly as
book publishers.
You know, there's there'ssomething of a there's a
pretense that just comes withit.
We talked about the ivorytower.
We've talked about, you know,just kind of the idea of
publishing is something of anerudite profession.
(01:33):
And, you know, there's a lot ofsmart people in it.
And you don't want to come offas a Johnny come lately or just
a money grubber.
But you do want to have, youknow, some sort of like
approachability as well.
I guess I I sort of strugglewith that balance.
I don't know about you, butwe're kind of getting deep
already.
Yeah.
What have you been up to?
(01:54):
What's new in your life?
I know you did some travelingrecently, but...
David (01:58):
Yeah, I did some personal traveling, vacation time into
Europe.
Yeah.
I've been there a couple oftimes.
Yeah, it's nice to be inanother world.
Just working really hard atLake Drive Books and Hyponymous.
Mick (02:12):
Yeah.
David (02:13):
Hyponymous literary.
I do literary agenting, youknow, part of the time.
Yeah.
And we actually this this willbe public by the time this is
out, I'm sure.
And it's public.
But we've had Audrey ClaireFarley join us as a literary
agent.
Yeah.
Audrey's a Ph.D.
and literary scholar.
(02:34):
author of a best-sellingnonfiction narrative book, which
I'm not going to try todescribe the title right now
because I'll mess it up.
Super, super educated,intelligent, thoughtful human
being who's always wanted andknows a fair amount about
publishing, who's always wantedto get into being an agent
because she feels like she cansource authors.
(02:56):
Okay, right on.
That's something right there.
Someone who can naturally beconnected to other authors who
might have some pretty deep, shecalled a lot of her own
writing.
I want to say nonfictionreportage or journalistic
history, really fascinatingkinds of writing.
That we don't see nearlyenough of.
(03:20):
Oh, that's cool. But she knowspeople and she's a connector
maybe and sees the personalityprofile of authors.
And yeah, that's, that's reallyuseful.
And that, I mean, I've beenthinking like, what are we going
to talk about this time?
And, what do authors need toknow that we haven't covered
yet? Last time we talked aboutsome of the top questions we
get.
And I kind of wanted to diginto book development as a
(03:44):
whole, like what we do withauthors and how we help them
understand what it takes to bea good author and how do you
develop a project?
What does that look like?
There's, of course, a myriadways to do this, but I think we
have particular style maybe inhow we approach it, particularly
as nonfiction, and maybe evenas progressive nonfiction
(04:07):
publishers and editors.
How are we sharing our processwith you know who we're trying
to serve?
I guess if you think of us asservice providers how do we
describe what we do for peopleand to me that's what's been
disrupted maybe the most in interms of my daily life.
How I describe what I do topeople i s so different from
(04:32):
when I first started.
Obviously I'm not in-houseanymore, so I don't have a
title.
So I have to describe to peopleI'm a coach, I'm an editor.
That even is a little bitsquishy.
What does that mean?
It can sound like a counseloror something, which sometimes I
do.
I tell people I'm not acounselor, but how can I best
help people?
And then what makes a booksellable?
(04:52):
How do you know when a book isa good idea?
And I mean, that's a big, broadquestion.
There's a lot of differentthings that makes a book
sellable in your mind whenyou're going after something.
Or an author, what makes themviable long-term, like not just
one book.
I mean, do you have answers forthat off the top of your head?
(05:16):
Right, right. It's always a combination of things,
right?
It's a conversation first,right?
Yeah.
Well, I mean, there's differentfeatures to every book.
I remember when we were ineditorial meetings together.
Yeah.
you know it's it's known ininside publishing at publishing
team meetings editorial teammeetings that sometimes you rank
proposals you might and it'sbeen a while since i've thought
(05:40):
about this so i'm not going toremember it as disciplined as i
was in the past it was weeklybut you would rank yeah the
meetings are weekly but youwould rank a a proposal by
editorial strength, strength ofthe concept, strength of the
platform.
At least those things.
And it would spit out a number.
We might have refined it alittle bit more than that.
No, but kind of those threeareas.
(06:02):
Right, so you could be reallystrong on platform, but maybe
not so strong on...
writing or even uniqueness ofidea but that still might make
it a worthwhile project.
Mick (06:13):
Yeah if you can sell it and it's right somewhat familiar
in the market but we don't havea book exactly like that before
we might go for it.
David (06:19):
Yeah yeah yeah.
So we've talked a lot aboutplatforms so far and there's
always more more to talk aboutwith regard to that.
But I think sometimes, too, inpublishing, and I don't want to
sound cliche about this, butit's true that platform drives a
lot of publishing.
For sure.
And so those other, sometimespeople call them three legs of
(06:41):
the stool.
There's the platform, butthere's, of course, the concept
and the writing.
The craft of it. Where it really starts.
How you put it together.
And I guess, to me, bookdevelopment sort of defaults
into how did you put this booktogether.
It defaults into the craft,like the voice and the style and
the organization of thematerial even.
(07:03):
I said before we wererecording, I think a lot of
times I'm the bucket of coldwater for an author because I'm
the bad guy as the editor to saywe need to back up and develop
this concept better.
"There's some points in chapterfive you haven't really fleshed
out and we need moreillustration of that." Or maybe
(07:24):
"you're taking this in adirection that isn't as
practical and applicable to youraudience as it needs to be." So
we often are pulling backbefore we even get to talking
about marketing and sales.
And then that helps to definethe audience better, right?
So as we're developing thosesales materials later on down
the line, it behooves an authorto have started with a strong
(07:47):
development of that concept withusually some professional help.
I'm going to argue for that Iguess, it's sort of a
hand-in-glove approach you'renot doing it in a completely
separate category, there'scompetition out there that you
have to match and there's morecompetition than ever before
(08:09):
. And I guess in one way, thedisruption of the market is, to
me, we have to respond to thehigher competition that's out
there.
And then an editor is helpingyou to recognize what's your
competition.
That's where we talk aboutcompetitive titles in the
proposal.
And that's, I think, more talking about being in a major
(08:34):
publishing program.
We're conditioned to sort ofthink that way as publishing
professionals.
You know, along the lines ofour publishing disrupted theme
or in the new roles that we bothfind ourselves in, we're
publishing more what you mightsay creative or more innovative
(08:55):
kinds of things.
So the competition is morelike, you know, what are the
things we don't want to do orkeep repeating like everybody
else keeps repeating.
Sure.
Mick (09:03):
How is this different maybe than what's out there?
David (09:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
When I'm working, when authorscontact me, and they're very
early in their process, one ofthe first things I'll say is
it's always a good idea to gothrough the exercise of doing a
book proposal.
Sometimes folks will balkbecause they're like, well, I
(09:26):
don't know if this is a goodidea yet.
And I will sometimes say, well,first off, I'm pretty busy as a
publishing professional, andyou've got to take some time.
If you can't put a proposaltogether with some facility,
that means you haven't alreadythought through what you're
doing, or maybe you're not evenready as an author
platform-wise.
So as a courtesy sometimes, Ithink that's the way to go.
(09:51):
So there's that.
But then also, it's a veryhealthy exercise to go through
all the components of a bookproposal And that includes the
concept and the writing, theorganization and structure of
the book, as well as themarketing and the platform.
And if you can pull off a goodbook proposal, who cares what
(10:14):
that agent thinks or what thateditor thinks?
You've figured something outand you'll go get it out there
one way or the other.
Mick (10:20):
Find a different agent and sell it.
That's right.
Right.
So I think it's never wastedtime to put a book proposal
together.
But I often will say it startsThe hardest part is the sample
writing and the chapter outline.
The idea might be good, butit's often in the execution.
(10:44):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's right.
And that's where I feel likethat's where there's like a
sense of process.
You mentioned the word processearlier.
Well, exactly. Yeah.
And I think this is where wefind some similarity between my
job previously in-house andmaybe you too, looking for the
best books that are standouts,and now.
Because as much as we'relooking for what's different in
(11:07):
the market, we were before aswell.
But we were trying to plugholes almost when we were
in-house.
You know, there's so manybooks, even on our own list that
are kind of competitive withwhat we're already doing.
David (11:18):
They were saying the same thing.
We had like five marriage booksin one year once.
Or just women's interests inparticular.
I just feel like there were somany of
these self-helpy women teachers.
At least they replaced all thepastor books.
Mick (11:31):
No, right?
And I'm not speaking ill ofthem at all.
I just think that it's hard todistinguish those books at a
certain point.
So that's where it comes downto craft and how the method is
different.
Right.
Maybe the message is the same,but you're coming at it from a
different angle, at leastdifferent enough.
Maybe there's like drawings ormaybe there's, it's more design
(11:55):
heavy or it's giftable or,you'd try to soup up the
package a little bit.
So it looked different.
Um, now we're, we're not doingthat so much.
It's less, this soundspejorative, but that felt like
sleight of hand almost like,"No, really. This is new."
David (12:14):
Right. "Really?"
"It is. Yeah. I promise." Now it's like,I do that as much.
I'm actually looking forsomething that's a new idea to
begin with that I haven't seenin a book before.
Which feels really satisfying.
And then even the method thatthe person's using is coming
from, like we talked about lasttime with author marketing, that
comes from an authentic place.
(12:36):
I'm looking for a person.
Right.
That then defined their theirprocess in coming to this
message.
Like and then they show youtheir method.
Right.
It's almost like there's thismemoir aspect, I guess, to
everything that's nonfiction.
Now, I don't want to just havelike someone an authority on
high telling me like what.
(12:56):
what's true and what's good,right?
I want to see how they'veapplied it.
I want to know why this haschanged their life.
I'm looking for life change inthe books that
I'm working on.
It sounds to me like you'retalking about what is innovative
these days.
Yeah, yeah, sure.
Especially being in religiouspublishing, historically it's
been knowledge from on high,particularly if you're a man.
(13:19):
The tradition that's there.
Or you've got degrees afteryour name.
Mick (13:22):
Exactly right, yeah.
Authority is sort of...
Or you've got a big church.
From the theologicalperspective and how well you can
define that theological
David (13:32):
space.
But even for like a self-helpbook from a PhD or even, let's
say, a clinical psychologist,you want to have the human there
too.
And not just the dry...
know technical supposedlyscientific information of course
all psychologists arescientific but sure but
Mick (13:50):
let's let's assume uh speaking as one kind of yeah no
you're getting at something ithink that is a major disruption
and that is sort of like theyou generation or the talking
about what i saw recently in inatlantic like we're we're
basically like we're thisanti-traditional,
(14:11):
anti-establishment culture now,and I don't know that we can put
things back in the box, thateverybody has their own sort of
distinctiveness.
David (14:21):
Right.
That's what we need more of.
Uniqueness, right?
Instead of mass culture thatjust crushes us.
Yes,
Mick (14:27):
exactly.
And so what we used to do waswe would attach to these
identity sort of surrogates,whether that was a pastor or a
church or even just likebiblical authority.
I've heard that one so muchrecently.
I'm like on that on myFacebook.
Oh, how nauseating.
It's really, it is.
It's quite, yeah, it makes mefeel gross.
(14:48):
But like we're trying to defineourselves for ourselves against
a lot of this traditional sortof establishment
authoritarianism, frankly.
And I think that's where I'mcoming from as an editor trying
to help people understand thedisruption in the market that
you can't go back to like justrelying on these old forms of
(15:09):
authority, that your poweractually now comes from your
identity.
And then when you understandthat concept that you're trying
to put forth and you understandthe method that you used and
you're interpreting that on thepage for someone, that's your
process.
David (15:25):
So in a book proposal that you're evaluating, that
would be...
You're talking about voice.
Talking
Mick (15:34):
about voice, but you see how it's like the hand and glove
thing.
The concept is gloved in themethod that you used, right?
So let's take an example oflike, say, self-help or like
someone who's talking aboutovercoming anxiety.
David (15:51):
With a spiritual bent.
Mick (15:52):
Sure, or yeah, or even just like a humanist bent.
They wanted to overcome thisthing.
They're telling you their storyof how they did it, what their
process looked like, right?
Maybe it's not even memoir.
Maybe it's got like points.
But how they did it.
Yeah.
How they did it.
Or what they discovered.
And they're using their ownillustrations, their own life.
And maybe even talking to otherpeople who have done this.
I mean, you could go about itmany different ways.
(16:14):
Right.
But I've seen that proposalmany times.
And yet each time it's uniquebecause the person who's doing
it is unique.
And I want to bring that outmore.
Right.
As an editor.
I want to see like how did youapproach it that was different
from someone else.
Right.
And that's just exciting,right?
that makes you feel like, well,I might not be just like that
(16:34):
person on the page, but at leastI see that there was a process
there.
And that then relates to mylife.
David (16:42):
So that comes out not just in the tone, but it's hand
in glove with the concept youwere saying.
Yes, exactly.
Yeah, that's interesting.
Mick (16:49):
Craft, concept,
David (16:50):
kind of go together.
Concept meaning like thetitling even has to be, and the
description has to talk aboutthis person, not just as a
credentialed writer, but assomeone who's writing within a
context.
Mick (17:02):
Yes, yes.
And is it a memoir?
This is a question I have allthe time.
Is it a memoir or is itself-help?
Like which category are wetalking about?
Yeah, yeah.
And sometimes that's difficult.
David (17:12):
Especially in religious spiritual titles.
The lines are blurred for sure.
Mick (17:17):
Because now we're getting at what makes it a book.
What
David (17:21):
makes it readable and fun to read.
Mick (17:22):
Maybe it needs to be a blog post.
Or maybe it's even a blogseries.
Or maybe it's a podcast.
And we can explore thesedifferences.
But how a book is different isthat now you're capturing
something that's essential tothe process that you put in
place.
to then like offer to someoneand say, this is what I did, you
know, and this, I think will bevaluable to your life.
Here's my story,
David (17:42):
whatever.
Um, talk about breaking thatdown for a chapter outline in a
book proposal.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, simplest way would be likethree points, but take what
you're saying in terms ofconcept and voice.
How does that look in terms ofa 10 or 12 chapter nonfiction
60,000 word book?
Mick (18:03):
Yeah.
Cause then we're getting intolike book, book development and
how do do that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's going to it's going tomatter on, you know, are you
looking to write a memoir?
I mean, is this like, you know,you go from point A to point B,
like you came out of, let'ssay, fundamentalism.
And now you're talking aboutlike having a more open,
(18:24):
inclusive faith, because ifthat's the journey, then we're
going to have to look for somelandmarks in.
David (18:32):
Yeah.
And look backwards.
I would say shift the example alittle bit more toward
spiritualism.
spiritual growth, self-help,even if it is about the journey
of
Mick (18:41):
deconstructing faith.
Well, and then you're thinkingabout a long-form article.
If you're familiar with maybearticles in The New Yorker or
Atlantic or even The BulwarkI've been reading recently, they
have some good long-formarticles.
And if you're familiar withthat form, then you can write a
book outline.
David (18:55):
So what's the outline?
Mick (18:58):
So the simplest way to break it down for me is like a
story.
There's three points.
There's the setup, which istelling me where i'm starting
from that's the context tell mewhere you started from usually
you're describing the bigproblem that you're facing or
that you had faced and why youwent on this journey right it
was do or die time i had toeither figure this out or i was
(19:18):
gonna you know crumble um andthat's the setup and then the
complication is where things getworse before they get better um
That's act two.
Act two is basically whereyou're trying to figure out what
you're doing and you'restumbling along in the dark for
a long time.
And then as soon as you get tothe crisis moment, you go into
act three and that's theresolution.
And usually the resolution ispretty...
ambiguous, I'd say, these days.
(19:42):
I mean, less so earlier.
But now I think people don'tlike things nice and neat and
packaged anymore.
We like to think that you gotthe victory by just going on a
journey.
A lot of people will say whenyou get to the end of a book and
if it feels too wrapped up,they don't actually enjoy that
(20:02):
as much.
You do still want to have thatsatisfaction of relief.
Yeah.
That you're not still in
David (20:07):
the darkness, right?
Right.
Some sort of resolution.
Unlike the rest of us.
I'm sorry.
I'm going to diverge.
Have you watched that on Max?
I don't know.
I mean, yeah, maybe I'm not abig enough nerd with regard to
the show and the video game, butit's like, I'm sorry, Pedro
Pascal?
How perfect.
Why is he not?
What's going on?
Mick (20:27):
That's a good show, though.
We've enjoyed
David (20:29):
it.
I mean, talk about...
Things didn't go as you thoughtmight happen.
But they went so differentlythat where is that resolution?
Yeah, that's true.
It lost me.
It really lost me.
Mick (20:39):
Yeah, it does sort of take a left turn.
David (20:41):
Yeah.
Mick (20:41):
And I think just surprise is probably the point in TV
these days.
You've got to keep youraudience surprised.
Yeah.
But yeah, so with a book,though, I do feel like you have
to set up the right expectationin that setup, right?
What are we getting out of thisjourney?
And book development, I think,requires that to be very clear.
David (21:00):
Yeah.
What if it really is moreexpository and explanatory as a
faith deconstruction story, orlet's say you're a spiritual
director or a religious traumatherapist or someone who has
(21:24):
learned some things and studiedthe topic, and you've got those
10 or 12 chapters, Um, it's kindof intriguing to think about
how things didn't go like youexpected to sort of start laying
out, like, like say if it's 10or 12 chapters, let's say 10 of
them are like your 10 sub themesof the process.
It develops your, your idea.
(21:45):
Yeah.
Now there's, um, you know,obviously you can talk about the
deconstruction journey is, iskind of getting worse before it
gets better.
Your personal, it's not turningout like it got worse before it
got better.
Yep.
Um, but you could also talkabout, That from a conceptual
point of view it would seem tome or you can even like your
concepts could even not serveyou well after you know to a
(22:09):
certain point yeah now you haveto just discard some of that if
you just get so far in yourdeconstruction journey and
you're doing this this and thisyou're still gonna be you're
still gonna lose yeah exactly ifyou if you can't go yeah like
you're still gonna find yourselfbending back into you know
trying to prove that there's aright way to understand jesus no
(22:30):
right or even i mean i'm sorryfolks that's part of the problem
too there's a
Mick (22:35):
right way and and this is the thing like Like you have an
outline.
And I think this is common formost authors as they work on
their idea.
You have an outline.
You start writing into thatoutline.
It starts changing on you.
Should I stick to the outlineor not?
Or should I go off grid here?
I think my advice almostinvariably is go ahead and
(22:55):
follow that because you've gotto know what's down that side
road.
Otherwise, you're alwayssticking to the formula and
you're not going to find thesatisfying answer that you hoped
for at the end of it.
If you're using your book tolearn...
You've got to go on thejourney.
That's not going to serve you.
Ultimately, if you're justtrying to write it because you
think you've got to stick toyour outline, whatever.
Yeah.
David (23:15):
Yeah.
Mick (23:17):
Yeah.
I think a lot of times we getinto trouble when we're not
willing to go on that side questand find the other tool.
that's waiting for you over inthe bushes.
I like how you're talking aboutthat, though, because there's
the conceptual, there's the sortof outline that you're trying
to sort of...
(23:37):
stick to and and help guideyour journey but then there's a
personal which is always messierand and and never quite um what
you hope for maybe you know anddisappointing to you you know
and it's always going to be alittle bit of a disappointment
to you because it's not as neatand tidy and as an editor i
would love it i would my i'menneagram five but like the
(24:01):
logician in me would love it ifwe could just stick to the
outline Right.
But we can't.
Right.
And so at some point, I justfinally said, like, well, what
happens if you don't?
Do you come up with a newoutline?
I mean, usually, yeah.
Yeah.
I'd say about two-thirds of theway through that outline, it's
going to start changing on
David (24:18):
you.
Yeah.
And I like to talk about thatas the creative process.
Yeah.
And I often will say, and I amsure I must not be the only one
who's ever said this, but thecreative process never stops
until you, like, put the pendown or you close the computer
and say, I'm not tweaking thisthing anymore.
How do you know when you'redone?
Mick (24:33):
Well, because you
David (24:34):
stopped.
Yeah.
But when you submit a bookproposal and then you find out
you're writing a different bookas you go along, well, that's
going to happen.
You should tell your editorbefore you get too far with the
new thing.
Is this okay?
But it will happen.
I think most editors understandthat.
Mick (24:53):
A good editor does understand that.
I honestly feel like that's abetter book than what they sold
to their team most of the time.
Because that author's beenlistening to a higher
David (25:03):
calling.
This is why I market testingonly gets you so far, folks.
I've been involved in a lot ofmarket testing and they're like,
hey, you changed the idea fromthere to there.
Well, I'm sorry.
It's a better idea now.
So what if it wasn't tested theway you want?
Exactly, exactly.
And
Mick (25:18):
they're always going to say something that's just not
even relevant.
And they don't know what theywant.
That's the difficulty I have.
Even as an editor, it's like Isold this one book and if I hold
to that and I make the authorchange it, that's not going to
be a good book.
The author's going to feel likethey're over a barrel.
They basically got the money sonow and they have to submit
that book.
But if I just go with them andhelp my team understand this
(25:42):
book needed to change, this isgoing to be a better book, then
that's going to sell well.
David (25:47):
So what about getting, like we're talking about the
book proposal again.
Say you've got your chapteroutline going and you've roughed
out, like a 200-worddescription for each chapter,
all 10 or 12 chapters.
And it might have been hard.
(26:09):
It might have taken you a whileto get there.
And you wonder if you're goingto be able to stick to it as you
write the actual chapters.
But you've done that, andnow...
whether it was in this order ornot, now you've got a sample
chapter to write.
I'm often saying, I want to seeboth a sample chapter as well
as a beta version of anintroduction, an introductory
(26:32):
chapter.
Now, you can't really write anintroduction until you've
written the whole book.
That's a good note.
But it's still, at the proposalstage, you need to put
something down because that'sgoing to be a longer form
understanding of what willeventually become the overview
or the short story.
description that's yourintention exactly right yeah but
so that out of the way theintroduction chapter needs to be
(26:55):
in there but what i really wantto see is the um is a sample of
a typical chapter right how areyou going to structure it what
do you you know how much storyyou're going to use how many
citations are you going to usegood right um and and just what
you know where does it beginwhere does it end yeah what's in
the middle
Mick (27:15):
well there's so much that's represented in there
right the personality of theperson you're back to the tone
and the voice yeah and and arethey going to be able to finish
this this book i think a lot oftimes i get an idea you you sent
me something recently uh justto evaluate.
And it was a proposal.
And there was a sample chapterin there.
And it felt a little weak.
It felt like, I don't know ifthis is going to be able to get
(27:38):
finished.
A whole manuscript.
They might need to get somecoaching to make sure that they
can reach the finish line.
And I don't really know.
I mean, if I had to come upwith three reasons why it felt
that way, I guess it just feltsimilar to some rough drafts
that I've written myself aboutan idea as you're working your
way into a concept.
(27:59):
there's just something reads asthough that's like an early
conception of that idea.
And then...
or like later on as it'srefined more there there seems
to be just more perspectivesthat have have been brought into
maybe that sample chapter it'snot simply your own and trying
to get your idea across it's asthough there's other voices in
(28:22):
that chapter speaking into thisconcept and and the author is
holding it more open-handedthey're not trying to like pound
the pulpit so much you knowwhat i mean yeah it feels a
little more like open-handed isit is
David (28:36):
my term but sometimes like too many declarative
statements in short paragraphsmeans you're not using the whole
paragraph to justify it this iswhat it meant and
Mick (28:46):
this is where we're going and you know it's a very early
concept that does that or saysthings that way and I guess as
you return to the drawing boardas you get some input from your
editor or your coach or evenyour agent or publisher hey go
back and bring this perspectiveto bear on
David (29:06):
it I remember one book I had worked on this a while back
in the evangelical publishingdays when there was a pastor
saying, you need to, you needto.
Whoops.
Very familiar.
Mick (29:18):
Right.
Yeah.
No, I mean, that's what we grewup with, right?
Those were kind of the earlydays of Christian publishing as
well.
Yeah.
A lot of the books, that's whatpeople were looking for.
Just tell me the right answerand I'll do it.
Tell me how to parent my kidand I'll do it.
And what we found out is thatdoesn't work as well Like those
kids grew up and you know, thepromises did not come to
(29:41):
fruition.
So now what you know?
So a lot of us are looking forthe books to say, okay Maybe
don't delete everything thatcame before but at least like
refine it like let's developthat Let's go on this journey as
individuals find out the rightway to parent this child or to
be married to this person Andthen that will define how you
(30:02):
should be married or how youshould
David (30:05):
be a parent.
I wonder if we could talk abouta sample chapter of a book that
isn't necessarily a subjectmatter expert.
Subject matter expert.
you know, like a, like, likeyou're working with someone
who's a psychologist and it'sabout, there's like a lot of
(30:25):
attachment theory in there.
Let's not talk about that.
Let's not talk about somethingthat's strictly a memoir with a
resolution.
Right.
Maybe that's it.
Maybe it has, maybe it has someof the good qualifications of a
memoir, like some extremeexperience, unique experience.
Sure.
Is a lot of it that drives alot of memoir or connected to a
(30:48):
theme that's really importantright now.
You know, that drives a lot.
Deconstruction or
Mick (30:52):
anxiety.
David (30:53):
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Or, or, or racism.
Sure.
Sexuality.
Yep.
Yep.
Feminism or something.
Talk about something that'smore like, cause this is what
I'm looking for.
Yeah.
Quite often.
I definitely want some moresubject matter experts.
Don't have enough, but sure.
Something that's more like,like a spiritual writing.
(31:14):
Say it's a book about justunderstanding a sense of peace.
What would you like to see in achapter on a book about peace
from a spiritual-minded writer?
It could be someone who is apastor or a teacher in some way.
It could be an everyday personwho's just super thoughtful,
(31:38):
beautiful with words.
great speaker, good onInstagram, but how would you
want that person to start thechapter on the topic of finding
peace in nature, for example?
Sorry if I'm just setting thisup too much.
No, that's
Mick (31:54):
really good, because last time we talked about Barbara
Brown Taylor and the fact thatshe's using nature now as kind
of the guide to find God, right?
It could look like that.
It could be very much just likefinding God in nature and how
they went on that journey, whatthat looked like for them.
Maybe they were a theirresearch phase for the first
half of the book, like trying tofigure out, you know, what did
(32:15):
Annie Diller say about that?
What did Richard Rohr say?
You know, these types of, likeI'm coming at this from a news
perspective, like maybe I'm likedigging in my garden one day
and I have an enlightened momentor an epiphany about God, and I
go in and I write it down.
Like, that could be a veryinteresting journey.
And I've said before, Pilgrimat Tinker Creek is basically a
(32:36):
walk around a lake.
Yeah.
Or a walk around a pond,actually.
That's an amazing book.
That's all it is.
And it's just a daily sort ofjournal, repository of these
spiritual thoughts.
Of noticing things.
Noticing.
That's right.
Going slow.
Waking up.
And that is a classic, right?
And how did that happen?
Well, that's somebody payingreal close attention at a very
(32:58):
critical point in her life.
And talking about it.
David (33:03):
That's it.
Mick (33:05):
But you're not going to find that kind of book very
often.
And we know, I mean, we couldgo down a list of those types of
books.
David (33:12):
Especially in individualistic,
entrepreneurial,always-on-the-make American
religious life.
Mick (33:16):
We need something that's going to fix our problem, right?
Fill your room with TinkerCreek is not what you're giving
people to fix their problem.
But it does.
I would argue that it doesbetter than a pill because
you're slowing down.
David (33:27):
And I went on a run.
That's Annie Dillard, right?
Yeah.
Yeah, she's the one who says,how do you approach God or in
prayer unless you're actually onyour knees?
Mick (33:35):
Yes.
David (33:36):
Do you remember her saying that?
Yeah, totally.
I've never forgotten that
Mick (33:39):
one.
Yes, exactly.
This gets at the humblingprocess.
I was on a run today, and Ididn't want to stop because, you
know, you don't want to stop.
You're out there running.
It's going to get hot, and it'sharder to start when you stop.
It's really humid.
We've gotten some reallyintense heat.
It's been so hot.
And it doesn't cool down.
So like even in the morning,it's like still at 80 So like I
was you know, I had my shirt wetand everything so I was ready
(34:01):
but like I had to stop because Ihad this thought and it was
like I know 10 years ago 20years ago, I wouldn't have been
able to receive this but I hadto slow down stop pay attention
to the thought and Know thatwhen I start again, it's gonna
be fine.
It's better to capture thisthing and And I don't even
remember what it was.
I wrote it down on my phone.
But it was basically aboutslowing down and recognizing
(34:22):
that that's usually the answer.
I don't want that to be theanswer because I'm a fighter.
I tell myself I'm not ambitiousbecause I am.
I try not to admit it tomyself.
But if I can
David (34:36):
slow down.
Most of us would not be able tosay what you just said, Mick.
That's really good.
Is
Mick (34:39):
that right?
I don't know.
It's only because I've beenable to slow down on my runs.
David (34:44):
I tell myself I'm not ambitious probably because I am.
Because I am.
And,
Mick (34:49):
and like, I don't, that's so true.
Yeah.
I don't want to be, you know?
So then I stop and I take downthe thought and I slow down and
it's like, that could be achapter in my book.
Maybe I'm writing to my, mydaughter who can't really
receive this right now becauseshe's 19 and it's hard.
And you know, life is, lifefeels like you have to define
yourself against everything.
At least it did for me at thatage.
(35:09):
So I don't want to be like myparents.
I don't want to be likeeverybody on YouTube or like,
you know, everything I'm seeingin the movies, I want to be
myself.
And what does that even mean?
I don't know.
But, I know it's not that.
So I'm basically definingmyself against everything.
So on this run, and I stop, andI take down the thought, and
I'm like, okay, if you couldjust slow down and recognize
that you're not trying to fighteverything all the time.
(35:31):
If you're just trying to allowfor humans to be human, and you
are one.
You have to receive in order tobe able to give.
Take this in.
Allow this to change you and bechastened by it.
The fact that you are human,that you have to you know, wash
yourself every day and eat andjust be a normal person.
(35:53):
Like, you don't have to be thatdifferent.
It's not that important.
David (35:56):
Yeah, see, everything you just said, I would love to
actually have been sitting downand reading a very thoughtfully
written chapter that took me 30minutes to read.
Well, it's because I've readbooks
Mick (36:05):
that I can say that stuff.
And where you find stuff likethat.
Yeah.
That's what I'm looking for aswell.
And I'm trying to get to, like,we're not going to be able to
find a Nanny Dillard.
We're probably not even goingto be able to find, like, a
Lauren Winner or, you know, aBarbara Brown Taylor or a
difficult or whoever.
But we can describe theprocess.
We can say, what have yougotten out of those books?
(36:26):
How can you then use yourresearch, build off the things
that came before you, stand onthe shoulders of the giants, and
then say what your journey wasand why it's different?
I would argue Brene Brown isdoing that.
I would argue Glennon Doyle isdoing that.
Anne Lalonde is doing that.
Susan Cain in Quiet is doingthat, and Bittersweet is doing
that.
So these are people who areoutside the Christian market,
(36:48):
but at the same time, they'reusing very very research-driven.
There's a pattern here.
Do you know how many peoplewere at Zondervan and now no
longer publish at Zondervan andhave gone independent?
A lot.
It's very interesting to me.
Rachel Hilda Evans was one.
Anyway, we can go on.
There's a lot of those names.
(37:09):
I think there's a launching padthat happens where you're like,
oh, I have a new thought.
I need to capture this.
And then you start just likefollowing your bliss in a way,
like what your curiosity leadsyou to.
And then that becomes yourprocess.
That becomes your books.
Right.
That's hard to find.
(37:29):
That's somebody with a voicethat's like developed that and
respected it enough to captureit on paper.
David (37:35):
Suddenly putting a book proposal together sounds like a
lot of fun.
Yeah, like a life journey.
If you can tap into some ofwhat is being said
Mick (37:44):
here.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so developing that process,there's a one, two, three.
What was the setup?
What was my normal context?
How did it become worse beforeit became better?
That's the complication andthen the resolution.
What have I ended up with?
It's somewhat still ambiguous.
David (37:58):
And that works for both the chapter outline of the whole
book, but it also works withinthe chapter, that same
structure.
Within the chapters.
Mick (38:05):
That's right.
That's right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I tell people, like yousaid, you want to see an
introduction first.
I tell people usually that'slike setting up the big problem
that you had to solve and thentelling people, in so many
words, that you're going to getto, like at least a attempt at
an answer or something thatlooks like, I went on a journey
and I got this treasure and thetreasure wasn't what I expected
(38:27):
it to be.
That sounds intriguing.
I want to read that book,right?
And that happens over and over.
That's like every story,
David (38:35):
honestly.
Even a social scientist workingthrough a problem.
I thought this is what I wasgoing to find, and instead I
found this.
Boy.
Brene Brown says that in hervulnerability talk.
If more people would write likethat.
That's right.
Especially even
Mick (38:46):
social scientists.
She was mad at the researchbecause it was telling her
exactly where she didn't want togo.
David (38:50):
Would it be that a pastor writes like that?
My goodness.
Mick (38:54):
I know.
It's so authentic and real.
I'm just like, that's why I dowhat I do.
And I think that's why you dowhat you do.
You're trying to come at thisfrom a very personal,
understandable, relatableapproach, right?
And that is your approach.
I'm not sure we got to all thepoints in the outline that we
need to get to, but we cancontinue next time.
(39:15):
We're riffing,
David (39:16):
man.
Mick (39:16):
Yeah, yeah.
David (39:17):
That's
Mick (39:17):
what this is all about.
Also, I talk a lot, and you askgood questions, and I need to
flip the script a little bit andask you questions.
David (39:25):
It was my counseling psychology course as an
undergrad and my introvert.
That's
Mick (39:31):
good stuff.
David (39:32):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mick (39:33):
All
David (39:33):
right.
Mick (39:33):
Well, we will pick this up again next time.
Thanks for being here,
David (39:36):
everybody.
Keep writing, everybody.
I was watching Speaking of AnneLamott.
Oh, yeah.
I was watching.
I saw an Instagram post.
She was interviewing somebody.
I don't remember who it was.
Obviously, somebody who's likea writing person, writing
professional.
And he was talking about howthere's different kinds of
writers.
There's people who are reallysmart and know their stuff and
(39:57):
really should be writing.
And then there's people whomaybe aren't quite that and but
they're actually writing everyday.
And he said, the real writersare the second group.
Mick (40:06):
That's right.
That's right.
That's really good.
Yeah.
David (40:09):
I hate it, but it's true.
It's a little bit, it was alittle bit dogmatic sounding and
very passionate when he statedit.
Sure.
But I think there's, you know,you've got to take everything
with a grain of salt, butthere's a lot of truth to just
keep him going.
That's right.
Mick (40:21):
Every day, a little bit every day, like eating an
elephant.
All right.
We'll see you next
David (40:27):
time.
Hey, everybody.
Welcome to the PublishingDisrupted podcast.
I'm Mick Silva.
David (00:06):
And I'm David Morris.
Mick (00:09):
And we are two former Christian publishing experts
exploring the ways that bookpublishing is changing.
Disruption is what we'retalking about.
So...
and mostly how to help writersbest meet the challenge.
But obviously, any professionalwho's trying to come at this at
a more normal level, lessprofessional, more
(00:32):
conversational.
I even said "confessional"recently to my wife.
She's like, oh, that's what youguys are doing in there.
David (00:38):
We do have things to confess as former Christian
publishing professionals.
We have to get things off ourchest.
We're still publishingprofessionals, by the way.
It's just different now.
Mick (00:49):
I told you last time, I tend to be aggressively
informal.
That's just the way I approachlife.
Because I don't like to havepre- And, you know, coming from
the backgrounds that we comefrom as pastor's kids, which we
can probably get into that alittle bit more at some point.
Oh, yeah.
We're sick of pretenses.
We don't like the pretense.
There's a common thread there.
(01:11):
But professionalism, I mean,obviously, you know, you have to
be a professional in thisindustry and particularly as
book publishers.
You know, there's there'ssomething of a there's a
pretense that just comes withit.
We talked about the ivorytower.
We've talked about, you know,just kind of the idea of
publishing is something of anerudite profession.
(01:33):
And, you know, there's a lot ofsmart people in it.
And you don't want to come offas a Johnny come lately or just
a money grubber.
But you do want to have, youknow, some sort of like
approachability as well.
I guess I I sort of strugglewith that balance.
I don't know about you, butwe're kind of getting deep
already.
Yeah.
What have you been up to?
(01:54):
What's new in your life?
I know you did some travelingrecently, but...
David (01:58):
Yeah, I did some personal traveling, vacation time into
Europe.
Yeah.
I've been there a couple oftimes.
Yeah, it's nice to be inanother world.
Just working really hard atLake Drive Books and Hyponymous.
Mick (02:12):
Yeah.
David (02:13):
Hyponymous literary.
I do literary agenting, youknow, part of the time.
Yeah.
And we actually this this willbe public by the time this is
out, I'm sure.
And it's public.
But we've had Audrey ClaireFarley join us as a literary
agent.
Yeah.
Audrey's a Ph.D.
and literary scholar.
(02:34):
author of a best-sellingnonfiction narrative book, which
I'm not going to try todescribe the title right now
because I'll mess it up.
Super, super educated,intelligent, thoughtful human
being who's always wanted andknows a fair amount about
publishing, who's always wantedto get into being an agent
because she feels like she cansource authors.
(02:56):
Okay, right on.
That's something right there.
Someone who can naturally beconnected to other authors who
might have some pretty deep, shecalled a lot of her own
writing.
I want to say nonfictionreportage or journalistic
history, really fascinatingkinds of writing.
That we don't see nearlyenough of.
(03:20):
Oh, that's cool. But she knowspeople and she's a connector
maybe and sees the personalityprofile of authors.
And yeah, that's, that's reallyuseful.
And that, I mean, I've beenthinking like, what are we going
to talk about this time?
And, what do authors need toknow that we haven't covered
yet? Last time we talked aboutsome of the top questions we
get.
And I kind of wanted to diginto book development as a
(03:44):
whole, like what we do withauthors and how we help them
understand what it takes to bea good author and how do you
develop a project?
What does that look like?
There's, of course, a myriadways to do this, but I think we
have particular style maybe inhow we approach it, particularly
as nonfiction, and maybe evenas progressive nonfiction
(04:07):
publishers and editors.
How are we sharing our processwith you know who we're trying
to serve?
I guess if you think of us asservice providers how do we
describe what we do for peopleand to me that's what's been
disrupted maybe the most in interms of my daily life.
How I describe what I do topeople i s so different from
(04:32):
when I first started.
Obviously I'm not in-houseanymore, so I don't have a
title.
So I have to describe to peopleI'm a coach, I'm an editor.
That even is a little bitsquishy.
What does that mean?
It can sound like a counseloror something, which sometimes I
do.
I tell people I'm not acounselor, but how can I best
help people?
And then what makes a booksellable?
(04:52):
How do you know when a book isa good idea?
And I mean, that's a big, broadquestion.
There's a lot of differentthings that makes a book
sellable in your mind whenyou're going after something.
Or an author, what makes themviable long-term, like not just
one book.
I mean, do you have answers forthat off the top of your head?
(05:16):
Right, right. It's always a combination of things,
right?
It's a conversation first,right?
Yeah.
Well, I mean, there's differentfeatures to every book.
I remember when we were ineditorial meetings together.
Yeah.
you know it's it's known ininside publishing at publishing
team meetings editorial teammeetings that sometimes you rank
proposals you might and it'sbeen a while since i've thought
(05:40):
about this so i'm not going toremember it as disciplined as i
was in the past it was weeklybut you would rank yeah the
meetings are weekly but youwould rank a a proposal by
editorial strength, strength ofthe concept, strength of the
platform.
At least those things.
And it would spit out a number.
We might have refined it alittle bit more than that.
No, but kind of those threeareas.
(06:02):
Right, so you could be reallystrong on platform, but maybe
not so strong on...
writing or even uniqueness ofidea but that still might make
it a worthwhile project.
Mick (06:13):
Yeah if you can sell it and it's right somewhat familiar
in the market but we don't havea book exactly like that before
we might go for it.
David (06:19):
Yeah yeah yeah.
So we've talked a lot aboutplatforms so far and there's
always more more to talk aboutwith regard to that.
But I think sometimes, too, inpublishing, and I don't want to
sound cliche about this, butit's true that platform drives a
lot of publishing.
For sure.
And so those other, sometimespeople call them three legs of
(06:41):
the stool.
There's the platform, butthere's, of course, the concept
and the writing.
The craft of it. Where it really starts.
How you put it together.
And I guess, to me, bookdevelopment sort of defaults
into how did you put this booktogether.
It defaults into the craft,like the voice and the style and
the organization of thematerial even.
(07:03):
I said before we wererecording, I think a lot of
times I'm the bucket of coldwater for an author because I'm
the bad guy as the editor to saywe need to back up and develop
this concept better.
"There's some points in chapterfive you haven't really fleshed
out and we need moreillustration of that." Or maybe
(07:24):
"you're taking this in adirection that isn't as
practical and applicable to youraudience as it needs to be." So
we often are pulling backbefore we even get to talking
about marketing and sales.
And then that helps to definethe audience better, right?
So as we're developing thosesales materials later on down
the line, it behooves an authorto have started with a strong
(07:47):
development of that concept withusually some professional help.
I'm going to argue for that Iguess, it's sort of a
hand-in-glove approach you'renot doing it in a completely
separate category, there'scompetition out there that you
have to match and there's morecompetition than ever before
(08:09):
. And I guess in one way, thedisruption of the market is, to
me, we have to respond to thehigher competition that's out
there.
And then an editor is helpingyou to recognize what's your
competition.
That's where we talk aboutcompetitive titles in the
proposal.
And that's, I think, more talking about being in a major
(08:34):
publishing program.
We're conditioned to sort ofthink that way as publishing
professionals.
You know, along the lines ofour publishing disrupted theme
or in the new roles that we bothfind ourselves in, we're
publishing more what you mightsay creative or more innovative
(08:55):
kinds of things.
So the competition is morelike, you know, what are the
things we don't want to do orkeep repeating like everybody
else keeps repeating.
Sure.
Mick (09:03):
How is this different maybe than what's out there?
David (09:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
When I'm working, when authorscontact me, and they're very
early in their process, one ofthe first things I'll say is
it's always a good idea to gothrough the exercise of doing a
book proposal.
Sometimes folks will balkbecause they're like, well, I
(09:26):
don't know if this is a goodidea yet.
And I will sometimes say, well,first off, I'm pretty busy as a
publishing professional, andyou've got to take some time.
If you can't put a proposaltogether with some facility,
that means you haven't alreadythought through what you're
doing, or maybe you're not evenready as an author
platform-wise.
So as a courtesy sometimes, Ithink that's the way to go.
(09:51):
So there's that.
But then also, it's a veryhealthy exercise to go through
all the components of a bookproposal And that includes the
concept and the writing, theorganization and structure of
the book, as well as themarketing and the platform.
And if you can pull off a goodbook proposal, who cares what
(10:14):
that agent thinks or what thateditor thinks?
You've figured something outand you'll go get it out there
one way or the other.
Mick (10:20):
Find a different agent and sell it.
That's right.
Right.
So I think it's never wastedtime to put a book proposal
together.
But I often will say it startsThe hardest part is the sample
writing and the chapter outline.
The idea might be good, butit's often in the execution.
(10:44):
Yeah.
Yeah, that's right.
And that's where I feel likethat's where there's like a
sense of process.
You mentioned the word processearlier.
Well, exactly. Yeah.
And I think this is where wefind some similarity between my
job previously in-house andmaybe you too, looking for the
best books that are standouts,and now.
Because as much as we'relooking for what's different in
(11:07):
the market, we were before aswell.
But we were trying to plugholes almost when we were
in-house.
You know, there's so manybooks, even on our own list that
are kind of competitive withwhat we're already doing.
David (11:18):
They were saying the same thing.
We had like five marriage booksin one year once.
Or just women's interests inparticular.
I just feel like there were somany of
these self-helpy women teachers.
At least they replaced all thepastor books.
Mick (11:31):
No, right?
And I'm not speaking ill ofthem at all.
I just think that it's hard todistinguish those books at a
certain point.
So that's where it comes downto craft and how the method is
different.
Right.
Maybe the message is the same,but you're coming at it from a
different angle, at leastdifferent enough.
Maybe there's like drawings ormaybe there's, it's more design
(11:55):
heavy or it's giftable or,you'd try to soup up the
package a little bit.
So it looked different.
Um, now we're, we're not doingthat so much.
It's less, this soundspejorative, but that felt like
sleight of hand almost like,"No, really. This is new."
David (12:14):
Right. "Really?"
"It is. Yeah. I promise." Now it's like,I do that as much.
I'm actually looking forsomething that's a new idea to
begin with that I haven't seenin a book before.
Which feels really satisfying.
And then even the method thatthe person's using is coming
from, like we talked about lasttime with author marketing, that
comes from an authentic place.
(12:36):
I'm looking for a person.
Right.
That then defined their theirprocess in coming to this
message.
Like and then they show youtheir method.
Right.
It's almost like there's thismemoir aspect, I guess, to
everything that's nonfiction.
Now, I don't want to just havelike someone an authority on
high telling me like what.
(12:56):
what's true and what's good,right?
I want to see how they'veapplied it.
I want to know why this haschanged their life.
I'm looking for life change inthe books that
I'm working on.
It sounds to me like you'retalking about what is innovative
these days.
Yeah, yeah, sure.
Especially being in religiouspublishing, historically it's
been knowledge from on high,particularly if you're a man.
(13:19):
The tradition that's there.
Or you've got degrees afteryour name.
Mick (13:22):
Exactly right, yeah.
Authority is sort of...
Or you've got a big church.
From the theologicalperspective and how well you can
define that theological
David (13:32):
space.
But even for like a self-helpbook from a PhD or even, let's
say, a clinical psychologist,you want to have the human there
too.
And not just the dry...
know technical supposedlyscientific information of course
all psychologists arescientific but sure but
Mick (13:50):
let's let's assume uh speaking as one kind of yeah no
you're getting at something ithink that is a major disruption
and that is sort of like theyou generation or the talking
about what i saw recently in inatlantic like we're we're
basically like we're thisanti-traditional,
(14:11):
anti-establishment culture now,and I don't know that we can put
things back in the box, thateverybody has their own sort of
distinctiveness.
David (14:21):
Right.
That's what we need more of.
Uniqueness, right?
Instead of mass culture thatjust crushes us.
Yes,
Mick (14:27):
exactly.
And so what we used to do waswe would attach to these
identity sort of surrogates,whether that was a pastor or a
church or even just likebiblical authority.
I've heard that one so muchrecently.
I'm like on that on myFacebook.
Oh, how nauseating.
It's really, it is.
It's quite, yeah, it makes mefeel gross.
(14:48):
But like we're trying to defineourselves for ourselves against
a lot of this traditional sortof establishment
authoritarianism, frankly.
And I think that's where I'mcoming from as an editor trying
to help people understand thedisruption in the market that
you can't go back to like justrelying on these old forms of
(15:09):
authority, that your poweractually now comes from your
identity.
And then when you understandthat concept that you're trying
to put forth and you understandthe method that you used and
you're interpreting that on thepage for someone, that's your
process.
David (15:25):
So in a book proposal that you're evaluating, that
would be...
You're talking about voice.
Talking
Mick (15:34):
about voice, but you see how it's like the hand and glove
thing.
The concept is gloved in themethod that you used, right?
So let's take an example oflike, say, self-help or like
someone who's talking aboutovercoming anxiety.
David (15:51):
With a spiritual bent.
Mick (15:52):
Sure, or yeah, or even just like a humanist bent.
They wanted to overcome thisthing.
They're telling you their storyof how they did it, what their
process looked like, right?
Maybe it's not even memoir.
Maybe it's got like points.
But how they did it.
Yeah.
How they did it.
Or what they discovered.
And they're using their ownillustrations, their own life.
And maybe even talking to otherpeople who have done this.
I mean, you could go about itmany different ways.
(16:14):
Right.
But I've seen that proposalmany times.
And yet each time it's uniquebecause the person who's doing
it is unique.
And I want to bring that outmore.
Right.
As an editor.
I want to see like how did youapproach it that was different
from someone else.
Right.
And that's just exciting,right?
that makes you feel like, well,I might not be just like that
(16:34):
person on the page, but at leastI see that there was a process
there.
And that then relates to mylife.
David (16:42):
So that comes out not just in the tone, but it's hand
in glove with the concept youwere saying.
Yes, exactly.
Yeah, that's interesting.
Mick (16:49):
Craft, concept,
David (16:50):
kind of go together.
Concept meaning like thetitling even has to be, and the
description has to talk aboutthis person, not just as a
credentialed writer, but assomeone who's writing within a
context.
Mick (17:02):
Yes, yes.
And is it a memoir?
This is a question I have allthe time.
Is it a memoir or is itself-help?
Like which category are wetalking about?
Yeah, yeah.
And sometimes that's difficult.
David (17:12):
Especially in religious spiritual titles.
The lines are blurred for sure.
Mick (17:17):
Because now we're getting at what makes it a book.
What
David (17:21):
makes it readable and fun to read.
Mick (17:22):
Maybe it needs to be a blog post.
Or maybe it's even a blogseries.
Or maybe it's a podcast.
And we can explore thesedifferences.
But how a book is different isthat now you're capturing
something that's essential tothe process that you put in
place.
to then like offer to someoneand say, this is what I did, you
know, and this, I think will bevaluable to your life.
Here's my story,
David (17:42):
whatever.
Um, talk about breaking thatdown for a chapter outline in a
book proposal.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, simplest way would be likethree points, but take what
you're saying in terms ofconcept and voice.
How does that look in terms ofa 10 or 12 chapter nonfiction
60,000 word book?
Mick (18:03):
Yeah.
Cause then we're getting intolike book, book development and
how do do that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's going to it's going tomatter on, you know, are you
looking to write a memoir?
I mean, is this like, you know,you go from point A to point B,
like you came out of, let'ssay, fundamentalism.
And now you're talking aboutlike having a more open,
(18:24):
inclusive faith, because ifthat's the journey, then we're
going to have to look for somelandmarks in.
David (18:32):
Yeah.
And look backwards.
I would say shift the example alittle bit more toward
spiritualism.
spiritual growth, self-help,even if it is about the journey
of
Mick (18:41):
deconstructing faith.
Well, and then you're thinkingabout a long-form article.
If you're familiar with maybearticles in The New Yorker or
Atlantic or even The BulwarkI've been reading recently, they
have some good long-formarticles.
And if you're familiar withthat form, then you can write a
book outline.
David (18:55):
So what's the outline?
Mick (18:58):
So the simplest way to break it down for me is like a
story.
There's three points.
There's the setup, which istelling me where i'm starting
from that's the context tell mewhere you started from usually
you're describing the bigproblem that you're facing or
that you had faced and why youwent on this journey right it
was do or die time i had toeither figure this out or i was
(19:18):
gonna you know crumble um andthat's the setup and then the
complication is where things getworse before they get better um
That's act two.
Act two is basically whereyou're trying to figure out what
you're doing and you'restumbling along in the dark for
a long time.
And then as soon as you get tothe crisis moment, you go into
act three and that's theresolution.
And usually the resolution ispretty...
ambiguous, I'd say, these days.
(19:42):
I mean, less so earlier.
But now I think people don'tlike things nice and neat and
packaged anymore.
We like to think that you gotthe victory by just going on a
journey.
A lot of people will say whenyou get to the end of a book and
if it feels too wrapped up,they don't actually enjoy that
(20:02):
as much.
You do still want to have thatsatisfaction of relief.
Yeah.
That you're not still in
David (20:07):
the darkness, right?
Right.
Some sort of resolution.
Unlike the rest of us.
I'm sorry.
I'm going to diverge.
Have you watched that on Max?
I don't know.
I mean, yeah, maybe I'm not abig enough nerd with regard to
the show and the video game, butit's like, I'm sorry, Pedro
Pascal?
How perfect.
Why is he not?
What's going on?
Mick (20:27):
That's a good show, though.
We've enjoyed
David (20:29):
it.
I mean, talk about...
Things didn't go as you thoughtmight happen.
But they went so differentlythat where is that resolution?
Yeah, that's true.
It lost me.
It really lost me.
Mick (20:39):
Yeah, it does sort of take a left turn.
David (20:41):
Yeah.
Mick (20:41):
And I think just surprise is probably the point in TV
these days.
You've got to keep youraudience surprised.
Yeah.
But yeah, so with a book,though, I do feel like you have
to set up the right expectationin that setup, right?
What are we getting out of thisjourney?
And book development, I think,requires that to be very clear.
David (21:00):
Yeah.
What if it really is moreexpository and explanatory as a
faith deconstruction story, orlet's say you're a spiritual
director or a religious traumatherapist or someone who has
(21:24):
learned some things and studiedthe topic, and you've got those
10 or 12 chapters, Um, it's kindof intriguing to think about
how things didn't go like youexpected to sort of start laying
out, like, like say if it's 10or 12 chapters, let's say 10 of
them are like your 10 sub themesof the process.
It develops your, your idea.
(21:45):
Yeah.
Now there's, um, you know,obviously you can talk about the
deconstruction journey is, iskind of getting worse before it
gets better.
Your personal, it's not turningout like it got worse before it
got better.
Yep.
Um, but you could also talkabout, That from a conceptual
point of view it would seem tome or you can even like your
concepts could even not serveyou well after you know to a
(22:09):
certain point yeah now you haveto just discard some of that if
you just get so far in yourdeconstruction journey and
you're doing this this and thisyou're still gonna be you're
still gonna lose yeah exactly ifyou if you can't go yeah like
you're still gonna find yourselfbending back into you know
trying to prove that there's aright way to understand jesus no
(22:30):
right or even i mean i'm sorryfolks that's part of the problem
too there's a
Mick (22:35):
right way and and this is the thing like Like you have an
outline.
And I think this is common formost authors as they work on
their idea.
You have an outline.
You start writing into thatoutline.
It starts changing on you.
Should I stick to the outlineor not?
Or should I go off grid here?
I think my advice almostinvariably is go ahead and
(22:55):
follow that because you've gotto know what's down that side
road.
Otherwise, you're alwayssticking to the formula and
you're not going to find thesatisfying answer that you hoped
for at the end of it.
If you're using your book tolearn...
You've got to go on thejourney.
That's not going to serve you.
Ultimately, if you're justtrying to write it because you
think you've got to stick toyour outline, whatever.
Yeah.
David (23:15):
Yeah.
Mick (23:17):
Yeah.
I think a lot of times we getinto trouble when we're not
willing to go on that side questand find the other tool.
that's waiting for you over inthe bushes.
I like how you're talking aboutthat, though, because there's
the conceptual, there's the sortof outline that you're trying
to sort of...
(23:37):
stick to and and help guideyour journey but then there's a
personal which is always messierand and and never quite um what
you hope for maybe you know anddisappointing to you you know
and it's always going to be alittle bit of a disappointment
to you because it's not as neatand tidy and as an editor i
would love it i would my i'menneagram five but like the
(24:01):
logician in me would love it ifwe could just stick to the
outline Right.
But we can't.
Right.
And so at some point, I justfinally said, like, well, what
happens if you don't?
Do you come up with a newoutline?
I mean, usually, yeah.
Yeah.
I'd say about two-thirds of theway through that outline, it's
going to start changing on
David (24:18):
you.
Yeah.
And I like to talk about thatas the creative process.
Yeah.
And I often will say, and I amsure I must not be the only one
who's ever said this, but thecreative process never stops
until you, like, put the pendown or you close the computer
and say, I'm not tweaking thisthing anymore.
How do you know when you'redone?
Mick (24:33):
Well, because you
David (24:34):
stopped.
Yeah.
But when you submit a bookproposal and then you find out
you're writing a different bookas you go along, well, that's
going to happen.
You should tell your editorbefore you get too far with the
new thing.
Is this okay?
But it will happen.
I think most editors understandthat.
Mick (24:53):
A good editor does understand that.
I honestly feel like that's abetter book than what they sold
to their team most of the time.
Because that author's beenlistening to a higher
David (25:03):
calling.
This is why I market testingonly gets you so far, folks.
I've been involved in a lot ofmarket testing and they're like,
hey, you changed the idea fromthere to there.
Well, I'm sorry.
It's a better idea now.
So what if it wasn't tested theway you want?
Exactly, exactly.
And
Mick (25:18):
they're always going to say something that's just not
even relevant.
And they don't know what theywant.
That's the difficulty I have.
Even as an editor, it's like Isold this one book and if I hold
to that and I make the authorchange it, that's not going to
be a good book.
The author's going to feel likethey're over a barrel.
They basically got the money sonow and they have to submit
that book.
But if I just go with them andhelp my team understand this
(25:42):
book needed to change, this isgoing to be a better book, then
that's going to sell well.
David (25:47):
So what about getting, like we're talking about the
book proposal again.
Say you've got your chapteroutline going and you've roughed
out, like a 200-worddescription for each chapter,
all 10 or 12 chapters.
And it might have been hard.
(26:09):
It might have taken you a whileto get there.
And you wonder if you're goingto be able to stick to it as you
write the actual chapters.
But you've done that, andnow...
whether it was in this order ornot, now you've got a sample
chapter to write.
I'm often saying, I want to seeboth a sample chapter as well
as a beta version of anintroduction, an introductory
(26:32):
chapter.
Now, you can't really write anintroduction until you've
written the whole book.
That's a good note.
But it's still, at the proposalstage, you need to put
something down because that'sgoing to be a longer form
understanding of what willeventually become the overview
or the short story.
description that's yourintention exactly right yeah but
so that out of the way theintroduction chapter needs to be
(26:55):
in there but what i really wantto see is the um is a sample of
a typical chapter right how areyou going to structure it what
do you you know how much storyyou're going to use how many
citations are you going to usegood right um and and just what
you know where does it beginwhere does it end yeah what's in
the middle
Mick (27:15):
well there's so much that's represented in there
right the personality of theperson you're back to the tone
and the voice yeah and and arethey going to be able to finish
this this book i think a lot oftimes i get an idea you you sent
me something recently uh justto evaluate.
And it was a proposal.
And there was a sample chapterin there.
And it felt a little weak.
It felt like, I don't know ifthis is going to be able to get
(27:38):
finished.
A whole manuscript.
They might need to get somecoaching to make sure that they
can reach the finish line.
And I don't really know.
I mean, if I had to come upwith three reasons why it felt
that way, I guess it just feltsimilar to some rough drafts
that I've written myself aboutan idea as you're working your
way into a concept.
(27:59):
there's just something reads asthough that's like an early
conception of that idea.
And then...
or like later on as it'srefined more there there seems
to be just more perspectivesthat have have been brought into
maybe that sample chapter it'snot simply your own and trying
to get your idea across it's asthough there's other voices in
(28:22):
that chapter speaking into thisconcept and and the author is
holding it more open-handedthey're not trying to like pound
the pulpit so much you knowwhat i mean yeah it feels a
little more like open-handed isit is
David (28:36):
my term but sometimes like too many declarative
statements in short paragraphsmeans you're not using the whole
paragraph to justify it this iswhat it meant and
Mick (28:46):
this is where we're going and you know it's a very early
concept that does that or saysthings that way and I guess as
you return to the drawing boardas you get some input from your
editor or your coach or evenyour agent or publisher hey go
back and bring this perspectiveto bear on
David (29:06):
it I remember one book I had worked on this a while back
in the evangelical publishingdays when there was a pastor
saying, you need to, you needto.
Whoops.
Very familiar.
Mick (29:18):
Right.
Yeah.
No, I mean, that's what we grewup with, right?
Those were kind of the earlydays of Christian publishing as
well.
Yeah.
A lot of the books, that's whatpeople were looking for.
Just tell me the right answerand I'll do it.
Tell me how to parent my kidand I'll do it.
And what we found out is thatdoesn't work as well Like those
kids grew up and you know, thepromises did not come to
(29:41):
fruition.
So now what you know?
So a lot of us are looking forthe books to say, okay Maybe
don't delete everything thatcame before but at least like
refine it like let's developthat Let's go on this journey as
individuals find out the rightway to parent this child or to
be married to this person Andthen that will define how you
(30:02):
should be married or how youshould
David (30:05):
be a parent.
I wonder if we could talk abouta sample chapter of a book that
isn't necessarily a subjectmatter expert.
Subject matter expert.
you know, like a, like, likeyou're working with someone
who's a psychologist and it'sabout, there's like a lot of
(30:25):
attachment theory in there.
Let's not talk about that.
Let's not talk about somethingthat's strictly a memoir with a
resolution.
Right.
Maybe that's it.
Maybe it has, maybe it has someof the good qualifications of a
memoir, like some extremeexperience, unique experience.
Sure.
Is a lot of it that drives alot of memoir or connected to a
(30:48):
theme that's really importantright now.
You know, that drives a lot.
Deconstruction or
Mick (30:52):
anxiety.
David (30:53):
Yeah.
Right.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Or, or, or racism.
Sure.
Sexuality.
Yep.
Yep.
Feminism or something.
Talk about something that'smore like, cause this is what
I'm looking for.
Yeah.
Quite often.
I definitely want some moresubject matter experts.
Don't have enough, but sure.
Something that's more like,like a spiritual writing.
(31:14):
Say it's a book about justunderstanding a sense of peace.
What would you like to see in achapter on a book about peace
from a spiritual-minded writer?
It could be someone who is apastor or a teacher in some way.
It could be an everyday personwho's just super thoughtful,
(31:38):
beautiful with words.
great speaker, good onInstagram, but how would you
want that person to start thechapter on the topic of finding
peace in nature, for example?
Sorry if I'm just setting thisup too much.
No, that's
Mick (31:54):
really good, because last time we talked about Barbara
Brown Taylor and the fact thatshe's using nature now as kind
of the guide to find God, right?
It could look like that.
It could be very much just likefinding God in nature and how
they went on that journey, whatthat looked like for them.
Maybe they were a theirresearch phase for the first
half of the book, like trying tofigure out, you know, what did
(32:15):
Annie Diller say about that?
What did Richard Rohr say?
You know, these types of, likeI'm coming at this from a news
perspective, like maybe I'm likedigging in my garden one day
and I have an enlightened momentor an epiphany about God, and I
go in and I write it down.
Like, that could be a veryinteresting journey.
And I've said before, Pilgrimat Tinker Creek is basically a
(32:36):
walk around a lake.
Yeah.
Or a walk around a pond,actually.
That's an amazing book.
That's all it is.
And it's just a daily sort ofjournal, repository of these
spiritual thoughts.
Of noticing things.
Noticing.
That's right.
Going slow.
Waking up.
And that is a classic, right?
And how did that happen?
Well, that's somebody payingreal close attention at a very
(32:58):
critical point in her life.
And talking about it.
David (33:03):
That's it.
Mick (33:05):
But you're not going to find that kind of book very
often.
And we know, I mean, we couldgo down a list of those types of
books.
David (33:12):
Especially in individualistic,
entrepreneurial,always-on-the-make American
religious life.
Mick (33:16):
We need something that's going to fix our problem, right?
Fill your room with TinkerCreek is not what you're giving
people to fix their problem.
But it does.
I would argue that it doesbetter than a pill because
you're slowing down.
David (33:27):
And I went on a run.
That's Annie Dillard, right?
Yeah.
Yeah, she's the one who says,how do you approach God or in
prayer unless you're actually onyour knees?
Mick (33:35):
Yes.
David (33:36):
Do you remember her saying that?
Yeah, totally.
I've never forgotten that
Mick (33:39):
one.
Yes, exactly.
This gets at the humblingprocess.
I was on a run today, and Ididn't want to stop because, you
know, you don't want to stop.
You're out there running.
It's going to get hot, and it'sharder to start when you stop.
It's really humid.
We've gotten some reallyintense heat.
It's been so hot.
And it doesn't cool down.
So like even in the morning,it's like still at 80 So like I
was you know, I had my shirt wetand everything so I was ready
(34:01):
but like I had to stop because Ihad this thought and it was
like I know 10 years ago 20years ago, I wouldn't have been
able to receive this but I hadto slow down stop pay attention
to the thought and Know thatwhen I start again, it's gonna
be fine.
It's better to capture thisthing and And I don't even
remember what it was.
I wrote it down on my phone.
But it was basically aboutslowing down and recognizing
(34:22):
that that's usually the answer.
I don't want that to be theanswer because I'm a fighter.
I tell myself I'm not ambitiousbecause I am.
I try not to admit it tomyself.
But if I can
David (34:36):
slow down.
Most of us would not be able tosay what you just said, Mick.
That's really good.
Is
Mick (34:39):
that right?
I don't know.
It's only because I've beenable to slow down on my runs.
David (34:44):
I tell myself I'm not ambitious probably because I am.
Because I am.
And,
Mick (34:49):
and like, I don't, that's so true.
Yeah.
I don't want to be, you know?
So then I stop and I take downthe thought and I slow down and
it's like, that could be achapter in my book.
Maybe I'm writing to my, mydaughter who can't really
receive this right now becauseshe's 19 and it's hard.
And you know, life is, lifefeels like you have to define
yourself against everything.
At least it did for me at thatage.
(35:09):
So I don't want to be like myparents.
I don't want to be likeeverybody on YouTube or like,
you know, everything I'm seeingin the movies, I want to be
myself.
And what does that even mean?
I don't know.
But, I know it's not that.
So I'm basically definingmyself against everything.
So on this run, and I stop, andI take down the thought, and
I'm like, okay, if you couldjust slow down and recognize
that you're not trying to fighteverything all the time.
(35:31):
If you're just trying to allowfor humans to be human, and you
are one.
You have to receive in order tobe able to give.
Take this in.
Allow this to change you and bechastened by it.
The fact that you are human,that you have to you know, wash
yourself every day and eat andjust be a normal person.
(35:53):
Like, you don't have to be thatdifferent.
It's not that important.
David (35:56):
Yeah, see, everything you just said, I would love to
actually have been sitting downand reading a very thoughtfully
written chapter that took me 30minutes to read.
Well, it's because I've readbooks
Mick (36:05):
that I can say that stuff.
And where you find stuff likethat.
Yeah.
That's what I'm looking for aswell.
And I'm trying to get to, like,we're not going to be able to
find a Nanny Dillard.
We're probably not even goingto be able to find, like, a
Lauren Winner or, you know, aBarbara Brown Taylor or a
difficult or whoever.
But we can describe theprocess.
We can say, what have yougotten out of those books?
(36:26):
How can you then use yourresearch, build off the things
that came before you, stand onthe shoulders of the giants, and
then say what your journey wasand why it's different?
I would argue Brene Brown isdoing that.
I would argue Glennon Doyle isdoing that.
Anne Lalonde is doing that.
Susan Cain in Quiet is doingthat, and Bittersweet is doing
that.
So these are people who areoutside the Christian market,
(36:48):
but at the same time, they'reusing very very research-driven.
There's a pattern here.
Do you know how many peoplewere at Zondervan and now no
longer publish at Zondervan andhave gone independent?
A lot.
It's very interesting to me.
Rachel Hilda Evans was one.
Anyway, we can go on.
There's a lot of those names.
(37:09):
I think there's a launching padthat happens where you're like,
oh, I have a new thought.
I need to capture this.
And then you start just likefollowing your bliss in a way,
like what your curiosity leadsyou to.
And then that becomes yourprocess.
That becomes your books.
Right.
That's hard to find.
(37:29):
That's somebody with a voicethat's like developed that and
respected it enough to captureit on paper.
David (37:35):
Suddenly putting a book proposal together sounds like a
lot of fun.
Yeah, like a life journey.
If you can tap into some ofwhat is being said
Mick (37:44):
here.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so developing that process,there's a one, two, three.
What was the setup?
What was my normal context?
How did it become worse beforeit became better?
That's the complication andthen the resolution.
What have I ended up with?
It's somewhat still ambiguous.
David (37:58):
And that works for both the chapter outline of the whole
book, but it also works withinthe chapter, that same
structure.
Within the chapters.
Mick (38:05):
That's right.
That's right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I tell people, like yousaid, you want to see an
introduction first.
I tell people usually that'slike setting up the big problem
that you had to solve and thentelling people, in so many
words, that you're going to getto, like at least a attempt at
an answer or something thatlooks like, I went on a journey
and I got this treasure and thetreasure wasn't what I expected
(38:27):
it to be.
That sounds intriguing.
I want to read that book,right?
And that happens over and over.
That's like every story,
David (38:35):
honestly.
Even a social scientist workingthrough a problem.
I thought this is what I wasgoing to find, and instead I
found this.
Boy.
Brene Brown says that in hervulnerability talk.
If more people would write likethat.
That's right.
Especially even
Mick (38:46):
social scientists.
She was mad at the researchbecause it was telling her
exactly where she didn't want togo.
David (38:50):
Would it be that a pastor writes like that?
My goodness.
Mick (38:54):
I know.
It's so authentic and real.
I'm just like, that's why I dowhat I do.
And I think that's why you dowhat you do.
You're trying to come at thisfrom a very personal,
understandable, relatableapproach, right?
And that is your approach.
I'm not sure we got to all thepoints in the outline that we
need to get to, but we cancontinue next time.
(39:15):
We're riffing,
David (39:16):
man.
Mick (39:16):
Yeah, yeah.
David (39:17):
That's
Mick (39:17):
what this is all about.
Also, I talk a lot, and you askgood questions, and I need to
flip the script a little bit andask you questions.
David (39:25):
It was my counseling psychology course as an
undergrad and my introvert.
That's
Mick (39:31):
good stuff.
David (39:32):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mick (39:33):
All
David (39:33):
right.
Mick (39:33):
Well, we will pick this up again next time.
Thanks for being here,
David (39:36):
everybody.
Keep writing, everybody.
I was watching Speaking of AnneLamott.
Oh, yeah.
I was watching.
I saw an Instagram post.
She was interviewing somebody.
I don't remember who it was.
Obviously, somebody who's likea writing person, writing
professional.
And he was talking about howthere's different kinds of
writers.
There's people who are reallysmart and know their stuff and
(39:57):
really should be writing.
And then there's people whomaybe aren't quite that and but
they're actually writing everyday.
And he said, the real writersare the second group.
Mick (40:06):
That's right.
That's right.
That's really good.
Yeah.
David (40:09):
I hate it, but it's true.
It's a little bit, it was alittle bit dogmatic sounding and
very passionate when he statedit.
Sure.
But I think there's, you know,you've got to take everything
with a grain of salt, butthere's a lot of truth to just
keep him going.
That's right.
Mick (40:21):
Every day, a little bit every day, like eating an
elephant.
All right.
We'll see you next
David (40:27):
time.
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