June 3, 2025 • 35 mins
"Do I need an editor?" "Is my book any good?" "Do I need an agent?" These have been the common questions of hopeful writers for generations. But these days, looking to navigate the ever-shifting landscape of publishing is far more complex. In this conversation, we pull back the curtain on what really happens behind the scenes in book publishing, and offer some honest insight and guidance about what authors need to succeed, regardless of whether they're publishing conventionally or going independent.
Whether you're pursuing traditional or independent publishing, in this episode we aimed to help answer the typical questions, and provide some of the education that separates future authors from the rest of the pack.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey, this is Publishing Disrupted and I'm
editor Mick Silva.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
I'm publisher and literary agent, david Morris.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
And we are two former Christian publishing industry
professionals learning tonavigate the massive independent
book market.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Yeah, woo-hoo.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Yeah, this podcast is basically exploring the ways in
which book publishing ischanging and how writers can
best meet the challenge.
So we're just trying to bringour knowledge to the audience of
authors out there, and a lot ofrecent changes have disrupted
the industry and continue to.
(00:41):
So there's a lot to talk about.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Yeah, and I think it helps to talk about it because
we we get it's.
It can be pretty, uh, fluid andbewildering and you have days
where you feel like, well, Idon't really know what I'm doing
, but I've been in this 30 yearsand I know more than like 99%
of the population.
You're yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
You're at 30.
I'm at uh 20, 25, 25 this year.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I started in 2000, so yeah, you still have that
feeling like I don't know.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
No, I know you know it's growing so much and and has
been changing so much withinthe last, I would say, 10 years,
um, and not just because ofamazon, although that's one of
the biggest disruptors we talkedabout yeah, yeah yeah yeah,
Probably self-publishing iswhat's changed the most Right
right In the last 10 years.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
If you were to pick something that was connected to
10 years, Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Because the retail.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
The digital retail revolution has already started
and was even maturing in thelast 10 years, to be honest.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Yeah, I look at that as like the blog, like this
shift from just someone had ablog and you know they're now
building a platform to actuallyhaving viable options for
self-publishing.
Yeah it's about 2015.
But anyway, we had somequestions we were thinking we
would like to answer, because weget top questions from people
(02:02):
all the time and we hear them,whether it's at parties or over
the transom on email, andprobably Take up the bulk of our
time in terms of what we wetend to answer for people.
When they come to us for help.
For me, obviously, as an editor, it can run the gamut you know
(02:23):
from.
Will you just take a look atthis to you know?
Do I need an agent?
You know?
Speaker 2 (02:28):
and that's.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
that's something that I think we could, we could
cover here, but I mean probablythe biggest one for me, I mean
obviously with, with writersjust starting out is you know,
is this any good?
Do I have anything here?
You?
know, and they, they really justwant to know is this worth
pursuing?
And I think that's often.
I mean, that's a fair question,but it's often a really
(02:50):
difficult question to answerbecause you know, you know as
well as I it has as much to dowith your fortitude and your
interest and your.
I mean, why are you writing thebook?
You know, I think that'sgenerally the question I ask
back to them.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Right.
The why is a really goodquestion.
What's?
Speaker 1 (03:09):
the passion behind it .
Why did you think a book otherthan something else?
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Yeah, because things like quality of writing, or
whether you're on topic, or thestructure of the book.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Right, those things can all be worked on and we've
talked yeah, we talked, uh,maybe first or second uh episode
about excellence and and whatthat means, um command of
language.
You, you've talked about likeproficiency and um facility with
language and and for writing.
I think that's something wecould get into, but, yeah,
(03:44):
that's yeah, nothing to say foryou know, is this any good yet?
Cause it could be, you know, Iguess.
Or, or the related question iswell then, do I need an editor?
Yeah, and, and that's where Igenerally, as an editor, will
say yes you need an editor.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Pretty much always, everyone does you need an editor
.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Pretty much always, everyone does.
I need an editor.
So, to shift thinking from just, you know, general John Q
Public, who's written amanuscript, and comes to me on
an email and asks you know, do Ineed editing?
I would say yes, you needediting.
You need to know what makes abook ready and what makes an
(04:24):
author ready.
You know, after the book isdone, now what and then that's
when they need you, a literaryagent or a publisher, just to
talk about their options, youknow.
So I'm kind of maybe first stepfor a lot of people, you know
(04:48):
well as a in in the indiepublishing.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
That I do, and to some extent agenting, but but
more in the indie publishing, um, I have authors who get the
idea that they should have itedited before they turn it in.
Um, and that might be becausethey have an idea that maybe
it's the indie publisher or thehybrid publisher isn't going to
edit it, and that's not alwaysthe case, right, so you don't
need to do that necessarily yepum, but oftentimes, uh, a
(05:15):
publisher, any publisher, onlyhas so much bandwidth.
Their editor only has so muchbandwidth to do what we call the
first edit, the development thedevelopmental edit is what we
call it.
It's typically the first edit apublisher does, but you know as
well as I that you've got astack of other things to do.
(05:35):
You've got an email inbox todeal with.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Right.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
And if that manuscript isn't really that
great, hopefully you've got thetime and the resources and the
mandate from your superiors toput a hold on a book until it
gets worked on better, but notalways.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
But you don't always.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
And then to some extent it's the author's
obligation to make sure it's ingood shape.
That's what's called getting amanuscript that's acceptable.
Right right, and if you've gotto spend an inordinate amount of
time getting it to theacceptable phase, then that's a
consideration.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Yeah, yeah, and that's going to be tough.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
With authors whose advances are really high, you
know, and their platforms arereally big.
Usually the publisher finds away to stop the presses and work
on that, which does happen.
Or they just publish it.
That happens.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
No, they don't do that.
Yeah, no, no.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Big publishers don't do anything like vanity
publishing, of course not no.
Celebrity authors' books arealways wonderful, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
So I mean just to back up a little bit, because
the developmental edit is whatwe're talking about, and when
when someone comes to me askingfor you know, does this, does
this need editing?
They are often asking aboutproofreading, or that's what
they think editing isdevelopment is basically taking
your idea and making sure thatit's correctly not just
(07:08):
formatted but presented, and fordevelopment.
I think often I try to simplifythat by saying you try to
augment what is there to makesure that it's on topic and
flows in a logical manner, andthen you try to diminish what's
distracting Right.
(07:28):
There's often a lot ofdigressions, sidebar material
that needs to be turned intosidebars and is trying to hide
as chapter material or viceversa, things that need to be
expanded Right that you haven'tsufficiently supported.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
That's probably the hardest thing as an in-house
developmental editor is thethings that need to be expanded,
because you don't really have alot of time to sort of send
this back to the author.
The typical turnaround timewould be three weeks.
Well, if you've got two orthree chapters that aren't as
(08:04):
strong as the rest of thechapters because they lack
material, right, that's notsomething that can be solved.
No, it's not quick in two orthree weeks, in addition to all
the other little things you'veasked about right, right.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
so so often it will involve shifting uh even the
vision a bit to say, okay, thisbook isn't going to be able to
cover that uh, can we uh eitherinclude a note or some
supplemental material?
Oftentimes that's why you'llsee an appendix or even notes
within the text to say check thewebsite.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Well, that sounds a little bit like a workaround too
, or a candy at times.
Oh yeah, no very much.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
It's workarounds in-house Any more as just an
editor working on independentmanuscripts or even for
independent publishers.
We do have the time and theschedule to develop that and it
will be a better book for it.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
If you're a first-time author, it's probably
something you should try tohave done and spend some money
on.
Even if you've got aconventional and I prefer the
word conventional a contractwith a conventional publisher, I
think that you'd be surprisedwhat they'll catch.
(09:16):
Oh yeah.
And if you're working with aneditor who's editing, if they've
got a big workload, you're notgoing to learn a whole lot about
your writing from the in-houseeditor all the time.
You can't, you can't a hundredpercent count on that.
And if you you suspect they'republishing a lot of titles a
(09:37):
year or they're busy and youprobably always suspect that,
but uh, and it might not be trueand they might take a lot of
time with your manuscript, butoftentimes they only have a, you
know, a very well-definedwindow before they have to move
on to something else, right?
So if you think, if you're afirst-time author, having
someone like you or or anothereditor to, uh, you know, kind of
(10:03):
help you tackle some of theglobal issues with, with the
manuscript in your writing, thatwould be that would probably be
well worth your time and money.
But for a 60,000 word nonfictionmanuscript or even fiction, you
know you're talking two, three,four thousand dollars depending
on how much needs to be done.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
Yeah, 60,000 words for me is yeah, that's, that's
starting around three thirtyfive hundred.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Uh-huh, uh-huh.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
So it is.
It's an investment, and youdon't know what you don't know,
and so it's.
It's one of those difficultiesthat I have I know you have them
too where you're trying toconvince the author of something
they don't know they need.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Right.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
So you're basically just trying to show them.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Hey, what do you mean ?
My writing is not good.
My friends love this.
I've had this read by fourpeople and they all love it.
They all thought it was great.
I only need proofreading.
But they were your friends.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Well, and often you know, you're getting into
situations where you've chargeda certain amount for a book and
now it needs more work becauseyou weren't quite aware of the
level of editing required.
So you know, I've told my wifeSherry a few times I'm an
uncredited ghostwriter onseveral books and I may have
(11:19):
been paid for a developmentaledit.
But, yeah, sometimes you'redoing a lot more.
I couldn't do that in-house.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
The rewriting as an in-house editor?
Right, there was no way.
Spending time rewriting page bypage, yeah, yeah, and rewriting
page by page.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Yeah, yeah, no, and I mean the publisher bought the
book.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
So they're not going to.
It's a lot of hours.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Yeah yeah, they're not going to notice you doing
all that work anyway, so youjust generally will publish it.
This is one of the things Iwould love to know.
I mean, are independent booksactually better than some of the
conventional books that arepublished now because of just
the crunch in time schedules?
And the reality that you know,an editor who's on staff is not
(11:59):
really motivated to put in thework that a manuscript
necessarily needs, and most doneed it.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
So I have seen, I think, a range where some
editors like I can think of oneat a very major, very large
broad market house, one of thebig five New York publishers,
where the editor spent a lot oftime working with the author on
the developmental edit not aninordinate amount of time but a
lot, and the manuscript neededit and the author was capable of
(12:32):
doing the.
Responding to that, it's quitewell to what?
To authors who, like they turnin the manuscript and they get
the, they get the revision back.
It's like wait, what happened?
Speaker 1 (12:44):
right, yeah, it's good, yeah, this is way under
under edited.
Yeah, I was seeing that a lot,just even by colleagues um on
staff, that they they were notthe type of editor who would dig
in on a manuscript if, if itneeded it, they'd hire, hire
that out, right, but a lot oftimes that wasn't happening
(13:04):
in-house a lot of pressure wason is on an acquisitions editor
right in a major imprint, rightto go to acquire and that takes
a lot of relationship work, alot of hand-holding.
Yeah, the incentive is on theeditor to acquire books and to
get bigger names.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
To lobby for the biggest possible advance that
the publisher can pay so theycan beat the other publisher.
You're trying to beat the otherpublisher.
Yeah, that's how it works.
I was continually asked pay sothey can beat the other
publisher.
You're trying to beat the otherpublisher.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Yeah, that's how it works.
I was continually asked who arethe biggest authors you can go
after, and every month orquarter at least, there was kind
of an audit of all therelationships that you could go
exploit, basically for new books, and that's what's taking up
most of in-house editors' timenot working on books.
(13:57):
So all of that to say it doesbehoove you to get an editor and
to hire it yourself before youseek publishing, and maybe even
before you seek representation,I think, depending on your goals
.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
And there are a lot of editors out there.
You know publishing hascontracted.
In terms of the number ofpositions that are out there In
the last 30 years it'scontracted quite a bit.
So that means there's a lot ofexperienced, knowledgeable
editors in your area of content.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Yeah, I think you can go on on reedsy.
Um, I'm I'm on there, but a lotof experienced editors are on
on reedsycom and that's that's agreat place to go and at least
uh get familiarized with withsome of the developmental
editors there upwork, maybe hassome work haswork has great ones
.
Reedsies is more focused onpublishing.
It is, and yeah, design as well.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
But yeah, I've found most of my colleagues
independent editors anddefinitely ask around.
You know, as an author, youshould be networking with other
authors.
That's right and not like theNew York Times bestsellers.
But the people who are a couplesteps ahead of you, a couple
steps further down the road inpublishing and they've got some
experience under their belt andsay who do?
You know that edits books thatyou really like and then collect
(15:27):
probably a number of names.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Get some names, that's right.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Because you kind of need to understand not just so
much whether they're good, butare they the right fit?
Right fit for you?
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Yeah, and why?
From a content point of view,what does that mean?
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Maybe even a personality or cost point of
view.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
What does it mean to fit, be a good fit with a
particular editor, or even apublisher or agent?
Speaker 2 (15:55):
I think it's personality obviously initially
know.
Do they read the kind of?
Speaker 1 (15:57):
material that you're asking them to.
Yeah, edit, I mean yeah, that'skind of yeah.
Number one I was working withsomeone recently and it was for
a sci-fi book and I don't do alot of sci-fi and I told her up
front I'm not the right editorfor you.
You should find someone elseshe said well, I'll just take a
look at it anyway I did.
But you know, yeah, um, I think,yeah, you definitely want to
(16:17):
read pretty widely in your ownarea, in your own field, and
then read acknowledgement pagesand find who are the editors and
agents that you can reach outto and ask for independent help.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Speaking of agents, this reminds me of an experience
I had as an agent.
That's what I do.
I do that part-time.
That's what I do.
I do that part-time, and I alsodo indie publishing a little
more than part-time which meansa lot of time.
But I had somebody recommendedto me who was a psychologist and
(16:55):
that's my thing.
That's my background.
I want to work with morepsychologists.
I can be really helpful workingwith psychologists and I have a
PhD myself and I love gettinginto the deeper learning.
But I ended up having anexploratory call with a person
(17:17):
who was a psychologist and mybackground is psychoanalysis
psychoanalytic theory as amethodology for cultural
critique.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Very cool.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Yeah, so that's a pretty specific but very deeply
and historically intellectualpursuit, Less clinical.
And I don't know you may knowthis, but in the psychology
world, in American psychologypsychotherapy practices, there's
(17:48):
a lot of different schools.
And this person just didn't likeFreud.
Freud was like someone to havecurrency with the knowledge, but
only in a way to.
Oh, we've moved on from thatand I'm like, well, you know,
for me that's like well, wait aminute, that sounds like
resistance, hang on, that soundslike you're protesting too much
(18:13):
, and oftentimes it is becauseAmerican psychology is its own
brand.
Oh for sure, there's all thesedifferent.
You know, if you go fromcountry to country, there's
differences, it's not?
just a science, you know, and sothat was an instance where it
was like okay, you know what, weshouldn't be working together,
because this is just notFundamentally disagreeing.
(18:34):
We use different languages anddifferent meanings to things,
whether we're agreeing or not.
I'm sure there's common ground,but we just can't find it very
quickly.
Anyway, it felt weird.
Honestly, it was kind ofunpleasant.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
I was ushered off the call pretty quickly by this
person.
I'm like, okay, win some, youlose some.
We just have different opinions, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, that's interesting.
I think I've had authors whereI know I'm not a fit for them,
but it takes them a little while.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
That's right To figure it out.
That's more the case.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Yeah, and I'm not necessarily trying to convince
them that I'm not.
I just want to educate themsomewhat open-handedly and let
them make their choice Right.
Yeah, yeah, I think sometimeswhen they have a professional in
their grasp, they're reluctantto let go.
Yeah, I understand that thatcan be hard.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Yeah, I get that a lot as well, like can you tell
me more?
And I usually have to say I canonly say I can only I can just
somehow hint in the email.
You know, here's what to donext if I were you Right.
Next steps yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Yeah, I'm quickly moving to next steps when that
becomes clear.
But yeah, shifting aconversation that way is not
what I like to do.
It's just something that wehave to do.
It's like being asked at aparty as a, as a doctor, you
know, you can look at this weirdrash or something you're like
that's not really appropriateright here.
(19:59):
I don't do weird rashes, I onlydo uh I'm not even that kind of
doctor, I'm not even gonna saywhat came to my mind yeah, yeah,
so that does happen.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
So, listening to so, do I need an editor?
Yeah, you know, I.
And do I need an agent?
Or people say I think I need anagent.
It's really more I, I need aneditor yeah, you know, and do I
need an agent?
Or people say I think I need anagent, I probably need an agent
.
I need someone to help me.
Right, go, take from, take whatI have and help me navigate the
world of publishing.
And that's and that is true,you need help navigating the
(20:32):
world of publishing.
Do you need an agent?
I would say yes, yeah, you needhelp navigating the world of
publishing.
Do you need an agent?
I would say yes, you do.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
At least for the knowledge that they're going to
offer you.
Right, right.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
I mean, the first thing that comes to mind and to
get out of the way sort of, iswell, you're kind of not ready
even for that, because an agentalso has limits on their time
and only so much capacity tohelp help you through, like, for
example, the you know it's.
I don't.
I don't believe it's an agent'sjob and I know there's some
(21:06):
agents that maybe think that itis to to help an author with
their developmental edit type ohno, work right um Actually
editing their manuscript.
Yeah, or just seeing a whole,like I know one agent that used
to, or maybe still does,requires an author to write the
whole manuscript before theystart pitching Right.
And I can kind of get that.
It doesn't necessarily mean ithas to be edited, perhaps.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Or to show up with a proposal.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Or maybe what's more common is that the author
wonders can you help me sort ofstructure what this book should
be?
And to that I think an agentcan help.
But if it's like a series ofcalls to finally get to the
right thing, that's probably toomuch time for most agents to
devote, unless you're an authorthat can command a
million-dollar advance.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Sorry folks only a few of you can do that.
If you have a huge platform, goahead, but otherwise, yeah,
right, yeah, yeah that's oryou've written or you've
published really well in thepast and you have a track record
you probably don't need thatkind of help, but, um, but yeah,
that learning and and this isthis is difficult, because
educating an author is largelywhat we do and how we spend a
(22:16):
lot of our time.
One of the reasons I'm wantingto do this podcast is for that.
So it becomes this kind of likeeducation process.
Where can you learn about whatyou don't know?
And books are the best place.
I'm still going to say it youhave to go to your library,
where we are right now Booksabout publishing.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
you mean Learn about publishing?
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Yes, read books.
Read the research books, readthe writer's market.
There's a ton of articles.
They're freely available to youto go get educated on what
publishing is and what you needto do in order to enter that
industry.
But most people will not dothat.
They will just call me and thenuse our time basically to try
(23:01):
and figure out how can I get mybook published.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Yeah, and to try to get to the level of having an
agent that will take an interestin you and everything depends.
There's always exceptions, butit usually means you know an
interest in you and everythingdepends.
There's always exceptions, butit usually means you know I'm
not an agent that's alwaysangling for like the higher,
bigger advances.
But I still have sort of abaseline.
If I don't think an author canget a certain advance, let's say
(23:28):
at least $5,000.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
It needs to be worth it yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Then it starts to.
It starts to not really beworth either the author's or the
agent's time for thecompensation that comes along
with that.
And you're at 15%.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Yeah, 15% is like the standard commission that an
agent makes on the author'sroyalties and the advance that
is paid on those royalties.
So even off of $5,000, I mean,and it's paid in installments
15% is not much money For theamount of work that you might
put into it You're talking about.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
So that's actually kind of low.
I know some agents are like ifI don't think an author can get
a six-figure advance, I'm notreally going to work with them
and I and I get that they'retrying to work at that kind of
level or in that kind of context.
For me, my context is differentso I'm trying to work with
authors who have a particularangle right, are doing kind of
creative things, who are sayingthings that aren't with the
(24:20):
status quo, and I'm fortunatethat I'm able to try to do that,
but it it's hard work and ityeah, well, there's difference
in agents you kind of notedthere.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Uh, you're more boutique, or you're more content
driven, where you can afford tobasically go after the authors
you like and you don'tnecessarily have to just be
mercenary and try to get thesix-figure advances Right, but
sometimes you're not reallyready even for that.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
That usually means for a publisher to pay a $5,000
advance.
You always have to keep in mindthat they're spending more than
just that on you, that's right.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Yeah, a lot more.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
In terms of their actual costs for editing and
designing, typesetting, managingoverhead, publishing your book,
we're talking like that'sanother $15,000.
And if they do upfront printruns, that's another maybe
$2,000, $3,000, $5,000.
(25:21):
Rent runs, that's another maybetwo three $5,000.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
So now for your small platform author $5,000 advanced
book, that's.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
We're like up to $25,000 investment on the part
of the publisher and that's.
You know, they've got to sell apretty good number of books to
make that money back.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
And a lot of times they do not.
Yeah, and that goes for eventhe big advances, and sometimes
even more so.
The margins are are crazy andright publishing it's not um.
You know the the uh uh coverprice yeah cover price for a
book.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
You know, sometimes we have to like, tell an author
to go go back and work on youraudience some more.
Look at your personal andprofessional network.
How much are you connectingwith people outside of just
writing?
Depending on your topic area,can you develop a stronger
(26:18):
online platform and connect withpeople that way?
Um, sometimes people ask howmany do I need?
I think you need, well, I mean,I'd say, a strong social media
platform like Instagram, like5,000, would be really good to
you know, as long as yourengagement is good too.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
It's not just.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
It's not just 5,000, and then you get like two likes
on most of your posts it's 5,000and you get 100 likes or so on
a lot of your posts.
Yeah, that's regular postingand there's ways to get there.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
And people get frustrated and cynical about
that, but honestly, it's reallyjust think of it as a different
medium to get your content andmake an impact.
Yeah, and that is very, verydoable if you find the right
attitude.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Well, you just got to be a systematic kind of thinker
.
A lot of people use socialmedia.
I'm guilty of this, justsomething comes to mind.
I think it would be helpful.
I put it up on Facebook.
Instead of having a plan.
Basically, I'm going to posttwice a day and do it at these
times, and I have a list ofthings that I'm going to cover
(27:24):
and they're ready to go.
That's.
That's someone who's buildingtheir platform.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Mm, hmm, mm, hmm.
Yeah, that's very doable, butthen.
But then let's say you aresomeone who warrants, has that
potential with your manuscriptand your platform.
It's a growing platform.
It may not be big, but you'redoing some good things.
It's growing.
You can demonstrate that youhave some understanding of what
(27:49):
it takes to market the book longterm.
So let's say you've got.
You qualify as being an agent'sauthor.
Why go with an agent?
Yeah, yeah, there's a lot toknow about publishing, right.
Even for someone who'spublished a bunch of books, you
still don't know a lot, right?
I was even amazed.
(28:10):
Sometimes it's some veryexperienced agents that we
worked with when you were atHarper, yeah, and so on.
When we had our big corporatepublishing jobs yeah, like whoa
you don't know about that youdon't know about that.
You don't understand how thatworks in the sales marketplace,
yeah, and it's like, oh yeah,well, that person actually never
worked in publishing.
(28:30):
Sure, In this case they were alawyer.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Don't know.
In-house operations.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Don't necessarily know what's going on with a lot
of aspects to publishing andthat's not a disqualification,
it just means it's.
Sometimes it's a strongqualification, but people just
don't know what's going on.
And I think it starts with howdo you put a good proposal
together?
There's a craft to that.
There's a lot of thingsEveryday.
(29:01):
Common sense doesn't quite workthat way.
The most obvious one are thecomparative titles that you put
in there.
They shouldn't be.
Don't pick a giant bestseller.
Don't compare yourself to agiant bestseller.
Don't pick something that's 20years old.
Those things sound like they'reobvious, but authors do it all
the time.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Oh yeah, and so do some publishing people.
No, it's true.
Oh, it is difficult.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
I think a lot of times the feedback from the
sales team will be conflictingAt a publishing house yeah, and
so there's a craft to putting agood proposal together.
Then it's a question of youknow who are the publishers I
should target, and there are alot of them out there.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Right, yeah, if you're going conventional, you
know there's different tiers ofpublishers and kind of getting
to know that, yeah, if we'retalking about Christian
publishing specifically, I thinkthere is a good resource with
the Christian writers marketguide, because that will give
you the the different tiered umpublishing resources available
(30:07):
to you, and not a lot of the uh,hybrid and self publishing is
in there, but I think it'shelpful.
It's put out by Steve lobby,who is an agent Um and, and
that's just a resource that Ithink everyone needs to know if
they're trying to get publishedin the Christian market.
If you're going towardindependent book publishing, you
need to be familiar with IBPA,and IBPAcom is Independent Book
(30:28):
Publishers Association.
And they have a lot of usefultools and materials.
Publishers Marketplace.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
That's true they do.
It's another one to be familiarwith Publishers Marketplace,
which is more of a clearinghouseof information for the
publishing industry, Publishingindustry at large.
It's not so much geared towardauthors.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Right, they do have author resources available in
that and they'resubscription-based most of them.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
They track a lot of the deals.
That's what I think agents andpublishers look at.
Publisher's Lunch.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
Yeah, and being aware of what's selling is a helpful
tool for any author.
But go to your library becauseall those resources are
available at a good well-stockedlibrary.
And just to say, you know,getting educated that's what
this episode, I think, isprobably about and being able to
(31:19):
you, you know, command somerespect on your topic and write
a good business documentproposal, uh, for your book.
Uh, is is absolutely somethingyou need to learn how to do.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
Yeah, if you're going to publish books, you know I
say this a lot too is is itcontext?
Is everything in publishing?
You know?
What kind of author are wetalking about here?
What?
Kind of topic area.
Are we in what kind of level?
What?
Kind of book Fiction,nonfiction.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
Specificity yes.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
You know how do you position this Right.
You know what are the numbersinvolved.
Who are the publishers?
I mean the agenting I do I.
I can pitch to just about anypublisher.
I'm pretty, pretty proficientat it.
I have a narrow list of authorsso I can't say I've done it.
(32:10):
I've landed in a lot ofdifferent publishers by the
range of publishers actually dida body and stir publisher
recently yeah, and and cameclose to actually actually oh
and actually a sexuality heypublisher what's the right word?
not sexualized.
That's not the right word.
What am?
I trying to say right, yeahyeah, the wrong words are coming
(32:31):
to my mind.
All the wrong words come to mymind sometimes not the right
word no, me too it's.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
It's an age thing.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Romance.
That's really steamy.
What's the right word for that?
Yeah, erotica.
There we go erotica.
I was going to say, if it'sfiction, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah,
but mostly my area would be whatI know are the progressive
house, I mean I know theconservative, evangelical ones,
(33:00):
and they actually form themajority of religious-oriented
publishers.
Right, they far outpacecombined their annual dollar
amount.
Dollar revenue is bigger thanall the other kinds of religious
publishers combined.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Right, it's just by a lot, it's just unbelievable the
difference.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
So when you look at the more progressive Protestant
publishers, mostly of them arenonfiction too by the way.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Oh for sure.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
And when you're talking about houses that are
more denominationally structuredthey're more connected to
existing denominations.
That's a small.
It's a much smaller playingfield.
If you're an author, that fitswith me editorially Right same
here.
And that's what I actually kindof enjoy.
I say, well, you know, there'sreally, there's only a few good
(33:56):
options here for you.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
And are you ready for that publisher?
Speaker 2 (33:58):
And I'll tell you exactly what you ready for that,
for that publisher, and I'lltell you exactly what you need
to do to get ready, and it's agreat.
It's a great way to be focused,even though your options are
very quickly limited.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Yeah, and that now you have you have some focus to
your research as an author andyou can go look at the books
that they're publishing, eveneven within the span, like
what's coming up right, and say,okay, do I see where I might
fit with this cadre of authors?
Yeah, that's great.
And to be able to.
I want to talk more about thisnext time and get into some of
(34:30):
that progressive Christian space, because that's where I'm
spending most of my time too.
But like, being able to quicklyassess something and narrow
down and get specific for anauthor gives them some next
steps, and we can be able toquickly assess something and
narrow down and get specific foran author gives them some next
steps, and we can be able tohopefully with this podcast as
well help people figure outtheir next steps.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
Yeah, let's keep going.
I love it.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Yeah.
Okay, Well we didn't get to allour our questions.
We can do that next time.
More questions for later.
We have plenty of questions.
Send us your questions.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
I want to hear about it.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
Yeah, we will actually get this podcast up and
published at some point.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
We're the typical book editors.
We take forever to getsomething done.
Yeah, I know.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
We've got four in the hopper.
We need to get this out there.
But yeah, who knows how far itwill go?
We'll keep it going as long asit's helpful.
So thanks for being here.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
Thank you.
Hey, this is Publishing Disrupted and I'm
editor Mick Silva.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
I'm publisher and literary agent, david Morris.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
And we are two former Christian publishing industry
professionals learning tonavigate the massive independent
book market.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Yeah, woo-hoo.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
Yeah, this podcast is basically exploring the ways in
which book publishing ischanging and how writers can
best meet the challenge.
So we're just trying to bringour knowledge to the audience of
authors out there, and a lot ofrecent changes have disrupted
the industry and continue to.
(00:41):
So there's a lot to talk about.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Yeah, and I think it helps to talk about it because
we we get it's.
It can be pretty, uh, fluid andbewildering and you have days
where you feel like, well, Idon't really know what I'm doing
, but I've been in this 30 yearsand I know more than like 99%
of the population.
You're yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
You're at 30.
I'm at uh 20, 25, 25 this year.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I started in 2000, so yeah, you still have that
feeling like I don't know.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
No, I know you know it's growing so much and and has
been changing so much withinthe last, I would say, 10 years,
um, and not just because ofamazon, although that's one of
the biggest disruptors we talkedabout yeah, yeah yeah yeah,
Probably self-publishing iswhat's changed the most Right
right In the last 10 years.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
If you were to pick something that was connected to
10 years, Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Because the retail.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
The digital retail revolution has already started
and was even maturing in thelast 10 years, to be honest.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Yeah, I look at that as like the blog, like this
shift from just someone had ablog and you know they're now
building a platform to actuallyhaving viable options for
self-publishing.
Yeah it's about 2015.
But anyway, we had somequestions we were thinking we
would like to answer, because weget top questions from people
(02:02):
all the time and we hear them,whether it's at parties or over
the transom on email, andprobably Take up the bulk of our
time in terms of what we wetend to answer for people.
When they come to us for help.
For me, obviously, as an editor, it can run the gamut you know
(02:23):
from.
Will you just take a look atthis to you know?
Do I need an agent?
You know?
Speaker 2 (02:28):
and that's.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
that's something that I think we could, we could
cover here, but I mean probablythe biggest one for me, I mean
obviously with, with writersjust starting out is you know,
is this any good?
Do I have anything here?
You?
know, and they, they really justwant to know is this worth
pursuing?
And I think that's often.
I mean, that's a fair question,but it's often a really
(02:50):
difficult question to answerbecause you know, you know as
well as I it has as much to dowith your fortitude and your
interest and your.
I mean, why are you writing thebook?
You know, I think that'sgenerally the question I ask
back to them.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Right.
The why is a really goodquestion.
What's?
Speaker 1 (03:09):
the passion behind it .
Why did you think a book otherthan something else?
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Yeah, because things like quality of writing, or
whether you're on topic, or thestructure of the book.
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Right, those things can all be worked on and we've
talked yeah, we talked, uh,maybe first or second uh episode
about excellence and and whatthat means, um command of
language.
You, you've talked about likeproficiency and um facility with
language and and for writing.
I think that's something wecould get into, but, yeah,
(03:44):
that's yeah, nothing to say foryou know, is this any good yet?
Cause it could be, you know, Iguess.
Or, or the related question iswell then, do I need an editor?
Yeah, and, and that's where Igenerally, as an editor, will
say yes you need an editor.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Pretty much always, everyone does you need an editor
.
Speaker 1 (04:02):
Pretty much always, everyone does.
I need an editor.
So, to shift thinking from just, you know, general John Q
Public, who's written amanuscript, and comes to me on
an email and asks you know, do Ineed editing?
I would say yes, you needediting.
You need to know what makes abook ready and what makes an
(04:24):
author ready.
You know, after the book isdone, now what and then that's
when they need you, a literaryagent or a publisher, just to
talk about their options, youknow.
So I'm kind of maybe first stepfor a lot of people, you know
(04:48):
well as a in in the indiepublishing.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
That I do, and to some extent agenting, but but
more in the indie publishing, um, I have authors who get the
idea that they should have itedited before they turn it in.
Um, and that might be becausethey have an idea that maybe
it's the indie publisher or thehybrid publisher isn't going to
edit it, and that's not alwaysthe case, right, so you don't
need to do that necessarily yepum, but oftentimes, uh, a
(05:15):
publisher, any publisher, onlyhas so much bandwidth.
Their editor only has so muchbandwidth to do what we call the
first edit, the development thedevelopmental edit is what we
call it.
It's typically the first edit apublisher does, but you know as
well as I that you've got astack of other things to do.
(05:35):
You've got an email inbox todeal with.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Right.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
And if that manuscript isn't really that
great, hopefully you've got thetime and the resources and the
mandate from your superiors toput a hold on a book until it
gets worked on better, but notalways.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
But you don't always.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
And then to some extent it's the author's
obligation to make sure it's ingood shape.
That's what's called getting amanuscript that's acceptable.
Right right, and if you've gotto spend an inordinate amount of
time getting it to theacceptable phase, then that's a
consideration.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Yeah, yeah, and that's going to be tough.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
With authors whose advances are really high, you
know, and their platforms arereally big.
Usually the publisher finds away to stop the presses and work
on that, which does happen.
Or they just publish it.
That happens.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
No, they don't do that.
Yeah, no, no.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Big publishers don't do anything like vanity
publishing, of course not no.
Celebrity authors' books arealways wonderful, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
So I mean just to back up a little bit, because
the developmental edit is whatwe're talking about, and when
when someone comes to me askingfor you know, does this, does
this need editing?
They are often asking aboutproofreading, or that's what
they think editing isdevelopment is basically taking
your idea and making sure thatit's correctly not just
(07:08):
formatted but presented, and fordevelopment.
I think often I try to simplifythat by saying you try to
augment what is there to makesure that it's on topic and
flows in a logical manner, andthen you try to diminish what's
distracting Right.
(07:28):
There's often a lot ofdigressions, sidebar material
that needs to be turned intosidebars and is trying to hide
as chapter material or viceversa, things that need to be
expanded Right that you haven'tsufficiently supported.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
That's probably the hardest thing as an in-house
developmental editor is thethings that need to be expanded,
because you don't really have alot of time to sort of send
this back to the author.
The typical turnaround timewould be three weeks.
Well, if you've got two orthree chapters that aren't as
(08:04):
strong as the rest of thechapters because they lack
material, right, that's notsomething that can be solved.
No, it's not quick in two orthree weeks, in addition to all
the other little things you'veasked about right, right.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
so so often it will involve shifting uh even the
vision a bit to say, okay, thisbook isn't going to be able to
cover that uh, can we uh eitherinclude a note or some
supplemental material?
Oftentimes that's why you'llsee an appendix or even notes
within the text to say check thewebsite.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Well, that sounds a little bit like a workaround too
, or a candy at times.
Oh yeah, no very much.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
It's workarounds in-house Any more as just an
editor working on independentmanuscripts or even for
independent publishers.
We do have the time and theschedule to develop that and it
will be a better book for it.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
If you're a first-time author, it's probably
something you should try tohave done and spend some money
on.
Even if you've got aconventional and I prefer the
word conventional a contractwith a conventional publisher, I
think that you'd be surprisedwhat they'll catch.
(09:16):
Oh yeah.
And if you're working with aneditor who's editing, if they've
got a big workload, you're notgoing to learn a whole lot about
your writing from the in-houseeditor all the time.
You can't, you can't a hundredpercent count on that.
And if you you suspect they'republishing a lot of titles a
(09:37):
year or they're busy and youprobably always suspect that,
but uh, and it might not be trueand they might take a lot of
time with your manuscript, butoftentimes they only have a, you
know, a very well-definedwindow before they have to move
on to something else, right?
So if you think, if you're afirst-time author, having
someone like you or or anothereditor to, uh, you know, kind of
(10:03):
help you tackle some of theglobal issues with, with the
manuscript in your writing, thatwould be that would probably be
well worth your time and money.
But for a 60,000 word nonfictionmanuscript or even fiction, you
know you're talking two, three,four thousand dollars depending
on how much needs to be done.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
Yeah, 60,000 words for me is yeah, that's, that's
starting around three thirtyfive hundred.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Uh-huh, uh-huh.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
So it is.
It's an investment, and youdon't know what you don't know,
and so it's.
It's one of those difficultiesthat I have I know you have them
too where you're trying toconvince the author of something
they don't know they need.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Right.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
So you're basically just trying to show them.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Hey, what do you mean ?
My writing is not good.
My friends love this.
I've had this read by fourpeople and they all love it.
They all thought it was great.
I only need proofreading.
But they were your friends.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Well, and often you know, you're getting into
situations where you've chargeda certain amount for a book and
now it needs more work becauseyou weren't quite aware of the
level of editing required.
So you know, I've told my wifeSherry a few times I'm an
uncredited ghostwriter onseveral books and I may have
(11:19):
been paid for a developmentaledit.
But, yeah, sometimes you'redoing a lot more.
I couldn't do that in-house.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
The rewriting as an in-house editor?
Right, there was no way.
Spending time rewriting page bypage, yeah, yeah, and rewriting
page by page.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Yeah, yeah, no, and I mean the publisher bought the
book.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
So they're not going to.
It's a lot of hours.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
Yeah yeah, they're not going to notice you doing
all that work anyway, so youjust generally will publish it.
This is one of the things Iwould love to know.
I mean, are independent booksactually better than some of the
conventional books that arepublished now because of just
the crunch in time schedules?
And the reality that you know,an editor who's on staff is not
(11:59):
really motivated to put in thework that a manuscript
necessarily needs, and most doneed it.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
So I have seen, I think, a range where some
editors like I can think of oneat a very major, very large
broad market house, one of thebig five New York publishers,
where the editor spent a lot oftime working with the author on
the developmental edit not aninordinate amount of time but a
lot, and the manuscript neededit and the author was capable of
(12:32):
doing the.
Responding to that, it's quitewell to what?
To authors who, like they turnin the manuscript and they get
the, they get the revision back.
It's like wait, what happened?
Speaker 1 (12:44):
right, yeah, it's good, yeah, this is way under
under edited.
Yeah, I was seeing that a lot,just even by colleagues um on
staff, that they they were notthe type of editor who would dig
in on a manuscript if, if itneeded it, they'd hire, hire
that out, right, but a lot oftimes that wasn't happening
(13:04):
in-house a lot of pressure wason is on an acquisitions editor
right in a major imprint, rightto go to acquire and that takes
a lot of relationship work, alot of hand-holding.
Yeah, the incentive is on theeditor to acquire books and to
get bigger names.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
To lobby for the biggest possible advance that
the publisher can pay so theycan beat the other publisher.
You're trying to beat the otherpublisher.
Yeah, that's how it works.
I was continually asked pay sothey can beat the other
publisher.
You're trying to beat the otherpublisher.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Yeah, that's how it works.
I was continually asked who arethe biggest authors you can go
after, and every month orquarter at least, there was kind
of an audit of all therelationships that you could go
exploit, basically for new books, and that's what's taking up
most of in-house editors' timenot working on books.
(13:57):
So all of that to say it doesbehoove you to get an editor and
to hire it yourself before youseek publishing, and maybe even
before you seek representation,I think, depending on your goals
.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
And there are a lot of editors out there.
You know publishing hascontracted.
In terms of the number ofpositions that are out there In
the last 30 years it'scontracted quite a bit.
So that means there's a lot ofexperienced, knowledgeable
editors in your area of content.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
Yeah, I think you can go on on reedsy.
Um, I'm I'm on there, but a lotof experienced editors are on
on reedsycom and that's that's agreat place to go and at least
uh get familiarized with withsome of the developmental
editors there upwork, maybe hassome work haswork has great ones
.
Reedsies is more focused onpublishing.
It is, and yeah, design as well.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
But yeah, I've found most of my colleagues
independent editors anddefinitely ask around.
You know, as an author, youshould be networking with other
authors.
That's right and not like theNew York Times bestsellers.
But the people who are a couplesteps ahead of you, a couple
steps further down the road inpublishing and they've got some
experience under their belt andsay who do?
You know that edits books thatyou really like and then collect
(15:27):
probably a number of names.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Get some names, that's right.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Because you kind of need to understand not just so
much whether they're good, butare they the right fit?
Right fit for you?
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Yeah, and why?
From a content point of view,what does that mean?
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Maybe even a personality or cost point of
view.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
What does it mean to fit, be a good fit with a
particular editor, or even apublisher or agent?
Speaker 2 (15:55):
I think it's personality obviously initially
know.
Do they read the kind of?
Speaker 1 (15:57):
material that you're asking them to.
Yeah, edit, I mean yeah, that'skind of yeah.
Number one I was working withsomeone recently and it was for
a sci-fi book and I don't do alot of sci-fi and I told her up
front I'm not the right editorfor you.
You should find someone elseshe said well, I'll just take a
look at it anyway I did.
But you know, yeah, um, I think,yeah, you definitely want to
(16:17):
read pretty widely in your ownarea, in your own field, and
then read acknowledgement pagesand find who are the editors and
agents that you can reach outto and ask for independent help.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Speaking of agents, this reminds me of an experience
I had as an agent.
That's what I do.
I do that part-time.
That's what I do.
I do that part-time, and I alsodo indie publishing a little
more than part-time which meansa lot of time.
But I had somebody recommendedto me who was a psychologist and
(16:55):
that's my thing.
That's my background.
I want to work with morepsychologists.
I can be really helpful workingwith psychologists and I have a
PhD myself and I love gettinginto the deeper learning.
But I ended up having anexploratory call with a person
(17:17):
who was a psychologist and mybackground is psychoanalysis
psychoanalytic theory as amethodology for cultural
critique.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Very cool.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
Yeah, so that's a pretty specific but very deeply
and historically intellectualpursuit, Less clinical.
And I don't know you may knowthis, but in the psychology
world, in American psychologypsychotherapy practices, there's
(17:48):
a lot of different schools.
And this person just didn't likeFreud.
Freud was like someone to havecurrency with the knowledge, but
only in a way to.
Oh, we've moved on from thatand I'm like, well, you know,
for me that's like well, wait aminute, that sounds like
resistance, hang on, that soundslike you're protesting too much
(18:13):
, and oftentimes it is becauseAmerican psychology is its own
brand.
Oh for sure, there's all thesedifferent.
You know, if you go fromcountry to country, there's
differences, it's not?
just a science, you know, and sothat was an instance where it
was like okay, you know what, weshouldn't be working together,
because this is just notFundamentally disagreeing.
(18:34):
We use different languages anddifferent meanings to things,
whether we're agreeing or not.
I'm sure there's common ground,but we just can't find it very
quickly.
Anyway, it felt weird.
Honestly, it was kind ofunpleasant.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
I was ushered off the call pretty quickly by this
person.
I'm like, okay, win some, youlose some.
We just have different opinions, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, that's interesting.
I think I've had authors whereI know I'm not a fit for them,
but it takes them a little while.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
That's right To figure it out.
That's more the case.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Yeah, and I'm not necessarily trying to convince
them that I'm not.
I just want to educate themsomewhat open-handedly and let
them make their choice Right.
Yeah, yeah, I think sometimeswhen they have a professional in
their grasp, they're reluctantto let go.
Yeah, I understand that thatcan be hard.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Yeah, I get that a lot as well, like can you tell
me more?
And I usually have to say I canonly say I can only I can just
somehow hint in the email.
You know, here's what to donext if I were you Right.
Next steps yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Yeah, I'm quickly moving to next steps when that
becomes clear.
But yeah, shifting aconversation that way is not
what I like to do.
It's just something that wehave to do.
It's like being asked at aparty as a, as a doctor, you
know, you can look at this weirdrash or something you're like
that's not really appropriateright here.
(19:59):
I don't do weird rashes, I onlydo uh I'm not even that kind of
doctor, I'm not even gonna saywhat came to my mind yeah, yeah,
so that does happen.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
So, listening to so, do I need an editor?
Yeah, you know, I.
And do I need an agent?
Or people say I think I need anagent.
It's really more I, I need aneditor yeah, you know, and do I
need an agent?
Or people say I think I need anagent, I probably need an agent
.
I need someone to help me.
Right, go, take from, take whatI have and help me navigate the
world of publishing.
And that's and that is true,you need help navigating the
(20:32):
world of publishing.
Do you need an agent?
I would say yes, yeah, you needhelp navigating the world of
publishing.
Do you need an agent?
I would say yes, you do.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
At least for the knowledge that they're going to
offer you.
Right, right.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
I mean, the first thing that comes to mind and to
get out of the way sort of, iswell, you're kind of not ready
even for that, because an agentalso has limits on their time
and only so much capacity tohelp help you through, like, for
example, the you know it's.
I don't.
I don't believe it's an agent'sjob and I know there's some
(21:06):
agents that maybe think that itis to to help an author with
their developmental edit type ohno, work right um Actually
editing their manuscript.
Yeah, or just seeing a whole,like I know one agent that used
to, or maybe still does,requires an author to write the
whole manuscript before theystart pitching Right.
And I can kind of get that.
It doesn't necessarily mean ithas to be edited, perhaps.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Or to show up with a proposal.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Or maybe what's more common is that the author
wonders can you help me sort ofstructure what this book should
be?
And to that I think an agentcan help.
But if it's like a series ofcalls to finally get to the
right thing, that's probably toomuch time for most agents to
devote, unless you're an authorthat can command a
million-dollar advance.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Sorry folks only a few of you can do that.
If you have a huge platform, goahead, but otherwise, yeah,
right, yeah, yeah that's oryou've written or you've
published really well in thepast and you have a track record
you probably don't need thatkind of help, but, um, but yeah,
that learning and and this isthis is difficult, because
educating an author is largelywhat we do and how we spend a
(22:16):
lot of our time.
One of the reasons I'm wantingto do this podcast is for that.
So it becomes this kind of likeeducation process.
Where can you learn about whatyou don't know?
And books are the best place.
I'm still going to say it youhave to go to your library,
where we are right now Booksabout publishing.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
you mean Learn about publishing?
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Yes, read books.
Read the research books, readthe writer's market.
There's a ton of articles.
They're freely available to youto go get educated on what
publishing is and what you needto do in order to enter that
industry.
But most people will not dothat.
They will just call me and thenuse our time basically to try
(23:01):
and figure out how can I get mybook published.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Yeah, and to try to get to the level of having an
agent that will take an interestin you and everything depends.
There's always exceptions, butit usually means you know an
interest in you and everythingdepends.
There's always exceptions, butit usually means you know I'm
not an agent that's alwaysangling for like the higher,
bigger advances.
But I still have sort of abaseline.
If I don't think an author canget a certain advance, let's say
(23:28):
at least $5,000.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
It needs to be worth it yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Then it starts to.
It starts to not really beworth either the author's or the
agent's time for thecompensation that comes along
with that.
And you're at 15%.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Yeah, 15% is like the standard commission that an
agent makes on the author'sroyalties and the advance that
is paid on those royalties.
So even off of $5,000, I mean,and it's paid in installments
15% is not much money For theamount of work that you might
put into it You're talking about.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
So that's actually kind of low.
I know some agents are like ifI don't think an author can get
a six-figure advance, I'm notreally going to work with them
and I and I get that they'retrying to work at that kind of
level or in that kind of context.
For me, my context is differentso I'm trying to work with
authors who have a particularangle right, are doing kind of
creative things, who are sayingthings that aren't with the
(24:20):
status quo, and I'm fortunatethat I'm able to try to do that,
but it it's hard work and ityeah, well, there's difference
in agents you kind of notedthere.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Uh, you're more boutique, or you're more content
driven, where you can afford tobasically go after the authors
you like and you don'tnecessarily have to just be
mercenary and try to get thesix-figure advances Right, but
sometimes you're not reallyready even for that.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
That usually means for a publisher to pay a $5,000
advance.
You always have to keep in mindthat they're spending more than
just that on you, that's right.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Yeah, a lot more.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
In terms of their actual costs for editing and
designing, typesetting, managingoverhead, publishing your book,
we're talking like that'sanother $15,000.
And if they do upfront printruns, that's another maybe
$2,000, $3,000, $5,000.
(25:21):
Rent runs, that's another maybetwo three $5,000.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
So now for your small platform author $5,000 advanced
book, that's.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
We're like up to $25,000 investment on the part
of the publisher and that's.
You know, they've got to sell apretty good number of books to
make that money back.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
And a lot of times they do not.
Yeah, and that goes for eventhe big advances, and sometimes
even more so.
The margins are are crazy andright publishing it's not um.
You know the the uh uh coverprice yeah cover price for a
book.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
You know, sometimes we have to like, tell an author
to go go back and work on youraudience some more.
Look at your personal andprofessional network.
How much are you connectingwith people outside of just
writing?
Depending on your topic area,can you develop a stronger
(26:18):
online platform and connect withpeople that way?
Um, sometimes people ask howmany do I need?
I think you need, well, I mean,I'd say, a strong social media
platform like Instagram, like5,000, would be really good to
you know, as long as yourengagement is good too.
Speaker 1 (26:35):
It's not just.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
It's not just 5,000, and then you get like two likes
on most of your posts it's 5,000and you get 100 likes or so on
a lot of your posts.
Yeah, that's regular postingand there's ways to get there.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
And people get frustrated and cynical about
that, but honestly, it's reallyjust think of it as a different
medium to get your content andmake an impact.
Yeah, and that is very, verydoable if you find the right
attitude.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Well, you just got to be a systematic kind of thinker
.
A lot of people use socialmedia.
I'm guilty of this, justsomething comes to mind.
I think it would be helpful.
I put it up on Facebook.
Instead of having a plan.
Basically, I'm going to posttwice a day and do it at these
times, and I have a list ofthings that I'm going to cover
(27:24):
and they're ready to go.
That's.
That's someone who's buildingtheir platform.
Speaker 2 (27:27):
Mm, hmm, mm, hmm.
Yeah, that's very doable, butthen.
But then let's say you aresomeone who warrants, has that
potential with your manuscriptand your platform.
It's a growing platform.
It may not be big, but you'redoing some good things.
It's growing.
You can demonstrate that youhave some understanding of what
(27:49):
it takes to market the book longterm.
So let's say you've got.
You qualify as being an agent'sauthor.
Why go with an agent?
Yeah, yeah, there's a lot toknow about publishing, right.
Even for someone who'spublished a bunch of books, you
still don't know a lot, right?
I was even amazed.
(28:10):
Sometimes it's some veryexperienced agents that we
worked with when you were atHarper, yeah, and so on.
When we had our big corporatepublishing jobs yeah, like whoa
you don't know about that youdon't know about that.
You don't understand how thatworks in the sales marketplace,
yeah, and it's like, oh yeah,well, that person actually never
worked in publishing.
(28:30):
Sure, In this case they were alawyer.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
Don't know.
In-house operations.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Don't necessarily know what's going on with a lot
of aspects to publishing andthat's not a disqualification,
it just means it's.
Sometimes it's a strongqualification, but people just
don't know what's going on.
And I think it starts with howdo you put a good proposal
together?
There's a craft to that.
There's a lot of thingsEveryday.
(29:01):
Common sense doesn't quite workthat way.
The most obvious one are thecomparative titles that you put
in there.
They shouldn't be.
Don't pick a giant bestseller.
Don't compare yourself to agiant bestseller.
Don't pick something that's 20years old.
Those things sound like they'reobvious, but authors do it all
the time.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Oh yeah, and so do some publishing people.
No, it's true.
Oh, it is difficult.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
I think a lot of times the feedback from the
sales team will be conflictingAt a publishing house yeah, and
so there's a craft to putting agood proposal together.
Then it's a question of youknow who are the publishers I
should target, and there are alot of them out there.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Right, yeah, if you're going conventional, you
know there's different tiers ofpublishers and kind of getting
to know that, yeah, if we'retalking about Christian
publishing specifically, I thinkthere is a good resource with
the Christian writers marketguide, because that will give
you the the different tiered umpublishing resources available
(30:07):
to you, and not a lot of the uh,hybrid and self publishing is
in there, but I think it'shelpful.
It's put out by Steve lobby,who is an agent Um and, and
that's just a resource that Ithink everyone needs to know if
they're trying to get publishedin the Christian market.
If you're going towardindependent book publishing, you
need to be familiar with IBPA,and IBPAcom is Independent Book
(30:28):
Publishers Association.
And they have a lot of usefultools and materials.
Publishers Marketplace.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
That's true they do.
It's another one to be familiarwith Publishers Marketplace,
which is more of a clearinghouseof information for the
publishing industry, Publishingindustry at large.
It's not so much geared towardauthors.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Right, they do have author resources available in
that and they'resubscription-based most of them.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
They track a lot of the deals.
That's what I think agents andpublishers look at.
Publisher's Lunch.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
Yeah, and being aware of what's selling is a helpful
tool for any author.
But go to your library becauseall those resources are
available at a good well-stockedlibrary.
And just to say, you know,getting educated that's what
this episode, I think, isprobably about and being able to
(31:19):
you, you know, command somerespect on your topic and write
a good business documentproposal, uh, for your book.
Uh, is is absolutely somethingyou need to learn how to do.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
Yeah, if you're going to publish books, you know I
say this a lot too is is itcontext?
Is everything in publishing?
You know?
What kind of author are wetalking about here?
What?
Kind of topic area.
Are we in what kind of level?
What?
Kind of book Fiction,nonfiction.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
Specificity yes.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
You know how do you position this Right.
You know what are the numbersinvolved.
Who are the publishers?
I mean the agenting I do I.
I can pitch to just about anypublisher.
I'm pretty, pretty proficientat it.
I have a narrow list of authorsso I can't say I've done it.
(32:10):
I've landed in a lot ofdifferent publishers by the
range of publishers actually dida body and stir publisher
recently yeah, and and cameclose to actually actually oh
and actually a sexuality heypublisher what's the right word?
not sexualized.
That's not the right word.
What am?
I trying to say right, yeahyeah, the wrong words are coming
(32:31):
to my mind.
All the wrong words come to mymind sometimes not the right
word no, me too it's.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
It's an age thing.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Romance.
That's really steamy.
What's the right word for that?
Yeah, erotica.
There we go erotica.
I was going to say, if it'sfiction, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah,
but mostly my area would be whatI know are the progressive
house, I mean I know theconservative, evangelical ones,
(33:00):
and they actually form themajority of religious-oriented
publishers.
Right, they far outpacecombined their annual dollar
amount.
Dollar revenue is bigger thanall the other kinds of religious
publishers combined.
Speaker 1 (33:17):
Right, it's just by a lot, it's just unbelievable the
difference.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
So when you look at the more progressive Protestant
publishers, mostly of them arenonfiction too by the way.
Speaker 1 (33:33):
Oh for sure.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
And when you're talking about houses that are
more denominationally structuredthey're more connected to
existing denominations.
That's a small.
It's a much smaller playingfield.
If you're an author, that fitswith me editorially Right same
here.
And that's what I actually kindof enjoy.
I say, well, you know, there'sreally, there's only a few good
(33:56):
options here for you.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
And are you ready for that publisher?
Speaker 2 (33:58):
And I'll tell you exactly what you ready for that,
for that publisher, and I'lltell you exactly what you need
to do to get ready, and it's agreat.
It's a great way to be focused,even though your options are
very quickly limited.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Yeah, and that now you have you have some focus to
your research as an author andyou can go look at the books
that they're publishing, eveneven within the span, like
what's coming up right, and say,okay, do I see where I might
fit with this cadre of authors?
Yeah, that's great.
And to be able to.
I want to talk more about thisnext time and get into some of
(34:30):
that progressive Christian space, because that's where I'm
spending most of my time too.
But like, being able to quicklyassess something and narrow
down and get specific for anauthor gives them some next
steps, and we can be able toquickly assess something and
narrow down and get specific foran author gives them some next
steps, and we can be able tohopefully with this podcast as
well help people figure outtheir next steps.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
Yeah, let's keep going.
I love it.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Yeah.
Okay, Well we didn't get to allour our questions.
We can do that next time.
More questions for later.
We have plenty of questions.
Send us your questions.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
Yeah, there you go.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
I want to hear about it.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
Yeah, we will actually get this podcast up and
published at some point.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
We're the typical book editors.
We take forever to getsomething done.
Yeah, I know.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
We've got four in the hopper.
We need to get this out there.
But yeah, who knows how far itwill go?
We'll keep it going as long asit's helpful.
So thanks for being here.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
Thank you.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.