April 29, 2025 • 26 mins
A new podcast from two "former book industry experts." Editor Mick Silva and publisher and literary agent David Morris cover all manner of things for professional authors trying to navigate the ever-changing publishing landscape.
In this first episode, we introduce some bigger questions:
- Why books still matter
- Can you make money at "creative expression?"
- Is being "indy" better than being corporate?
- Can authors find more fun and less frustration?
David also shared a bit about the biggest disruptor--digital publishing--and what it means for authors.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mick (00:00):
This is Publishing Disrupted, a progressive
Christian indie book publishingpodcast.
Oh, that's a mouthful.
That's a lot of words.
David (00:09):
Yeah, yeah, we'll work on that.
Mick (00:10):
Yeah, but this is, I've got publisher David Morris here
with me, and I'm editor MickSilva, and we're two former
Christian publishing expertstalking about navigating the
progressive independent bookmarket.
David (00:24):
Yeah, yeah.
Mick (00:25):
And we want to explore some of the bigger changes and
questions in the new bookpublishing landscape.
David (00:30):
Yeah, yeah.
I think you did say we'reformer experts.
I like that, actually.
Yeah.
I don't want to be an expertanymore.
And I think that it's thetruth.
The older you get, you realizethe less you know.
Yes.
So let's just say we're formerexperts from here on out.
I will go with that.
(00:50):
I think that makes us morecredible, actually.
I would listen to that.
in the era of authenticity.
Right,
Mick (00:57):
right.
I mean, yeah, accepting that youhave something to share is part
of the reason we're doing this.
But we want to just discusssome of the recent changes
disrupting the book publishingindustry and why we think books
matter, still matter in today'sday and age.
So one of the things thatreally interests me in that
(01:22):
regard is just when I got intobooks, it was for this idea that
we could disrupt things or wecould change things.
Or I don't even know if I had aclear idea about what changes I
was looking for.
I was just excited about that.
But now we get to do thatprofessionally in our daily
lives.
So talking about that, I thinkis part of what we're hoping to
(01:45):
do.
So we were talking about too,like disrupting, like what's
being disrupted in the book,publishing space.
And like, there's two levels ofthat.
There's the book publishingindustry in general, but then
there's like the specificChristian publishing and
evangelical publishing to makemore specific.
David (02:08):
That's the former expert part.
We're both former expertevangelical publishing people.
Mick (02:14):
Good church- going.
Yeah, exactly.
Up until recently.
And now we've made that shiftfrom traditional to independent,
but also from largely Christianto spiritual but not religious.
Is that what you're calling itnow?
Progressive, I guess?
David (02:29):
That covers it.
Mick (02:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, primarily nonfiction.
Yeah.
But there's a lot of challengesthere, and there's overlap in
those two distinctions thatwe're trying to make.
David (02:41):
Mm-hmm.
Mick (02:41):
Mm-hmm.
David (02:41):
So...
Talk about what you, you know,with regard to the title of the
show, Publishing Disrupted, yousaid...
that you got into publishing todisrupt things a little bit.
And I think that's a very coreparadigmatic thought about why
(03:03):
we're in publishing.
We're in publishing not just toput books on an assembly line
and edit them well and designthem well and publish and market
and distribute them well, butwe're there to...
to do something that is calledcreative expression, which
(03:26):
inherently is perhapsdisruptive.
How would you describe thatyounger editor that got into
publishing what you wanted todo?
Mick (03:39):
That's a good question.
Well, I immediately want toturn it around because it's
uncomfortable.
I feel like maybe you cananswer this as well.
Just briefly, I think myinterest was there is the ivory
tower concept of traditionalpublishing that is done with
excellence and editors decidewhat what books they want to
(04:00):
publish and they they figure outi mean ideally they're going to
sell well and make money butreally the the driving um force
for publishing is what's a goodconversation that we need to
have where do i see a hole inthe market or just an
opportunity to a publishedrecognizable author on a
(04:25):
particular topic.
And that really interested me.
I wanted to have thoseconversations.
I still feel like that's what'sdriving my desire to both read
and publish books.
The editing work that I do isalways looking to do it with
excellence, yes, and learn thatthat is a skill that you can
develop, but to have theseconversations that aren't being
(04:48):
had, or really aren't evenpossible any other way.
Maybe in a long-formdocumentary, but even articles,
newspapers, YouTube now, TVshows, there's so many ways that
media is being offered topeople.
But in a book, you're getting,ideally, a very synthesized and
(05:12):
polished message that's gonethrough some pretty rigorous
checks and balances.
And not that the other forms ofmedia aren't, but a book is
special in a way that thoseother types aren't.
David (05:30):
I was just reading an article on independent
publishing, particularly in thecase of women, queer, and black
publishing, but it was mostlyabout women publishing.
There's been a lot ofindependent publishing
publishers yeah publishing moreliterary perhaps content for
decades literally more on aindependent under the radar
(05:52):
grassroots level um and one ofthe things one of the one of the
people quoted in the articlei'm not remembering who it was
at the moment but um she wastalking about how um at a lot of
larger publishing housesthere's it's a lot of copycat
into trends, copycat publishing.
Where I worked, my first biggerfull-time publishing job was at
(06:18):
Guidepost Magazine.
So it's an inspirationalmagazine, and they had a large
book publishing businessattached to it.
Yeah, it was a pretty bigbusiness because they had a huge
mailing list.
It was direct mail, directresponse, publishing.
And the...
There was a lot of power tothis, but we tested everything
(06:41):
we did.
We had these mailing lists sowe could do market testing and
see which products would workthe best.
The weakness of that, which Ifelt like I was bumping up
against a lot, was, well, we'rejust kind of going along with
what the felt needs are ratherthan helping to define the felt
(07:01):
needs.
Yes.
And sometimes, especially inthe religious marketplace, that
can get pretty sugary.
A lot of the sugary stuff willrise to the top and not a lot of
meaty stuff.
So maybe that's one way thatwe're disrupting.
We're actually providingthings.
I mean, these are religiousmetaphors, but I used to think
(07:23):
of it as, well, if you're apreacher in front of a pulpit,
you don't tell people what theywant to hear.
You tell them what they...
what they need to hear.
They need,
Mick (07:32):
yeah.
What you think God's giving youto tell them.
Yeah.
David (07:36):
Yeah.
And I think, you know, evenjust taking the religious part
out of it, that's what our jobis.
Yeah.
It's sort of even to disruptthat, you know, lowest common
denominator, I want the candy, Iwant the cookies on the lower
shelf.
Yes.
Sugary stuff.
But to inspire people to godeeper.
Yeah.
(07:57):
Yeah.
Yeah, and I think that's just aconstant struggle, commercial
versus commercial.
What's the opposite ofcommercial?
Mick (08:10):
Well, I mean, it's so popular.
I mean, sometimes they putliterary.
It's artificial, but I'm goingto say something like the ivory
tower idea I was talking aboutbefore.
It's this idea that classictraditional publishing is
highbrow.
or is exceptional in some ways.
It's well researched, it'sdocumented, there's a paper
(08:32):
trail on the stuff you say.
You're not just coming up withwhatever's popular.
Which I do, I start therebecause I do think that was my
initial attraction topublishing.
And it can be an elitist idea.
I think I had a lot of elitism.
It was undiagnosed at the time,and now I'm hopefully getting
(08:53):
cured of some of that.
But I don't want to let go ofthis idea that, like you
mentioned the preacher in thepulpit, the feeling like we have
a message to share, whetherthat's coming from God or just
from the burning passion of yourheart, that you want to put
that in a format that is arespectable, time-honored
tradition.
(09:13):
At the same time, to disruptwhat's common right now, I
guess, with the popular bookpublishing market, that we
wanted to talk about celebritybooks.
A lot of the stuff that's beingpublished right now is just not
of that high quality thatpreviously all books tended to
(09:38):
be.
Now anyone can publish a book,and so there's just a lot more
competition And the forces formaking something more sugary and
popular are stronger than ever.
That's what's being disrupted.
That's what we see as beingdisrupted.
There's more sugar and lessnutrition, if you want to
(09:58):
oversimplify it.
We'd like to bring back some ofthe nutrition, and yet there's
nothing wrong with having somesugar.
I mean, obviously, it's got tohave something that's attractive
to it, too.
I like the term, it's anamalgamation, but like
edutainment.
We want to educate people, butentertaining them is necessary
(10:19):
in today's new media landscape,however you want to phrase that.
So there's kind of a balancethere.
So yeah, maybe publishingdisrupted it works on two
levels.
It's that it is being disruptedand we need to understand how
that's happening, why that'shappening, what it looks like,
and then how do we want torespond with our own disruptive
(10:43):
forces or interests.
David (10:47):
You've talked about how you've worked on a lot of books
and with a lot of authors overthe years.
Yeah.
And you kind of don't want todo that same thing anymore.
Right.
And you're kind of disruptingyourself at the moment.
I am too.
You are too.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We're both doing that.
(11:07):
So what are we trying to...
We're trying to break free frombeing in that sort of copycat
mainstream flow.
It's less commercially viable.
Right.
There's smaller paychecksinvolved.
Less money, for sure.
Mick (11:25):
Yeah.
David (11:25):
And that's kind of true for publishing in general
anyway, with the way it'sstructured now.
Mick (11:30):
Yeah, anyone going into publishing for making money
needs to think again.
Right, right.
It's
David (11:36):
there, but there's a formula to it, and sometimes it
involves being a celebrity inthe first place.
Mick (11:46):
Well, just wearing a lot of hats.
I'm admiring of what you dowith the publishing role at Lake
Drive.
Like drive books.
That's something we definitelywant to talk about.
I mean, and just to say likeyour, the roles that you have as
publisher and, you know, aconsultant basically to the
(12:08):
authors you work with tends torequire you to wear a lot of
hats and figure things out onthe, on the fly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's, that's part of thatdisruption that's going on.
I don't want to work with theauthors who I think believe in
that old concept of, ofpublishing that, that, you know,
(12:29):
You get a book manuscript, youcreate a proposal, you find an
editor and an agent, and they goand publish and sell your book.
I think that's the traditionalmodel that a lot of authors
have.
And that's typically how I wasfinding people at writers'
conferences and throughrecommendations of people.
(12:51):
And I was just finding that ifthey're not into actually
learning the publishing part ofit, editing as well, doing some
self-editing and doing someself-publishing.
They're not going to be a goodauthor.
They need to understand thatthose roles are required now.
There are tasks to learn, butthey're not unlearnable.
David (13:15):
Yeah, yeah.
I do think that on the whole,most authors...
over time as authors, when youpublish more than one book, you
start learning about howpublishing works.
It's not just you working inyour writer's shed and producing
manuscripts that then otherpeople handle.
No, I think even the ones whostart out that way, especially
(13:38):
the ones who become reallysuccessful, except for maybe
some sort of caricaturedversions of what authors are,
but most of them start learningwhat is it that their editor...
is challenged with at theirjob.
What is it that their publisheris trying to do?
What's working?
What's not working?
Right.
I mean, there are authors whodon't want to know any of that
(13:59):
stuff, but it's usually it'susually a hindrance to them to
not try to learn it some.
And I think, too, it's it'ssort of like anything.
You know, your author work islike a full time job.
And and so as a full time job,or as something you really care
about, don't you want to takeseriously all the facets to it?
(14:19):
Not just your writing craft,not just your ideas.
but also how you personallymarket the book.
Right.
You know, that the whole thatbig platform question.
What what are the what are thethings that the publishing
partners that you surroundyourself with need to do their
jobs well, like publishers andeditors, the sales team?
(14:42):
You know, how can you helpequip them?
It's almost like authorsthemselves should take courses
in publishing and just learnabout the business, because
eventually if they want to be assuccessful as they might want
to be, then therefore they'regoing to want to learn about
those things so why not giveyourself a leg up that's right
Mick (14:58):
yeah yeah I like that I think there's more there's more
than ever available to helpauthors do that mm-hmm I mean
I'm seeing it all the time Isubscribe to a lot of podcasts
and as I know you do sub stacksand blogs websites other authors
who have done this and areoffering their tips yeah you
know how to sell You know, andit's very particular.
(15:22):
Especially when we're talkingabout nonfiction and then
specifically progressive orindie nonfiction.
How are you doing that asopposed to say, you know, a big
or traditional house with acontract?
You know, there's a lot ofchallenging and exciting things
taking place there.
So I think we wanted to discusssome of that.
(15:44):
Some of our background.
you know, how that becomesrelevant.
Uh, some of the things thatare, um, uh, frustrating to us
and some of the reasons we'removing in this direction and
trying to shift into a, uh,less, um, um, less, I don't know
(16:07):
what we want to say, but makingless money, uh, but like less
important as well.
I mean, you had a title, youhad, you had, uh, you know, a
title with that paycheck, youknow, that brought you a lot of
clout and visibility even.
Health
David (16:24):
insurance, pre-tax dollars donated to a 401k.
Mick (16:27):
This was nice to have, you know, and, you know, we're not
going to make any bones aboutthat.
But like a lot of people, Ithink, who approached publishing
initially, like you're, as astudent, I mean, to your
question, I was looking atinternships.
I was trying to find a foot inthe door just to see where could
(16:49):
I start in publishing,basically to learn the trade and
learn how to do it withexcellence.
And I was really fortunate tofind some people who were
willing to help me to learn whatI hadn't learned in college.
Just some of the skills and,you know, working initially on
CIP data, that cataloging inpublication program for Library
(17:12):
of Congress.
You did some of that?
Submitting all of thosedocuments.
Yeah.
So that's part of theeditorial, you know, tasks.
Right.
And then, you know, running,it's basically the mailroom
stuff, you know, routing thingsinterdepartmentally so you can
learn who's who and where theywork and things like that.
And then working your way up.
That's basically what anyonewho's going into publishing now,
(17:36):
I don't know that they're,there's like the two roads.
And my daughter is 18 years oldand she's trying to get into
editing.
She's like, do I want to workin-house or do I want to just do
it on my own?
The professional track that Itook, I don't know, maybe that's
not as viable anymore.
David (17:58):
Right. So the in-house track.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think in today's gigeconomy, it's less so.
In the remote worker economy,it's less so of an issue for
sure.
And there's also fewereditorial positions, I would
venture to say, with all theconsolidation that's gone on.
(18:19):
And there's quite a few ofpeople like you and me who were
in the corporate environment andthen were not for one reason or
another.
Right.
And a lot of it is theconsolidation part.
A lot of it is the pressures ofthe industry that publishers
are facing.
So I think in a way thatactually creates that sort of
(18:41):
points in the direction that nottrying to aspire to the
corporate route, if we'retalking about getting into
publishing.
Now we're talking about gettinginto publishing.
But it kind of gets back to theissue of publishing is far more
grassroots now than it used tobe.
There's much more of a universeof grassroots work and
(19:02):
publishing going on.
And there's opportunity there.
It's not necessarily associatedwith the big, stable corporate
job and payroll situation.
Mick (19:12):
Right.
David (19:12):
Um, but if you can learn about publishing, even as like
an author slash editor, youknow, that's a, that's another
model.
No one really talks about outloud, but there, I know quite a
few people who that's what theyare.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mick (19:24):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, and I mean, that's whatI'm aspiring to now too.
I mean, it might as well writea bit as well, you know?
And I think you too, like evencoming from more of the academic
world, like trying to write aswell as, publish and edit.
You know, you're doing a lot ofediting of the books that
you're working on as well.
(19:45):
So yeah, again, wearing a bunchof hats, but that's part of the
disruption, right?
How publishing has changed.
There's just a lot more of, youknow, just get your hands dirty
and learn how to do ityourself.
Right, right.
Yeah.
David (19:58):
Yeah.
Could we talk about the, likewhat has really disrupted the
industry more than anything?
Like from a structural point ofview anyway?
Yeah.
Mick (20:09):
Yeah, what do you see?
David (20:10):
Itn he last 20 years, you've experienced this.
We've both been in publishingthroughout the big digital
disruption, the way the digitalmarketplace has changed, the way
that books are distributed andsold and distributed as well as
discovered.
Right.
So the biggest thing I like topoint to is just that when
(20:32):
Amazon came on the scene, ittook a little while, but...
We lost most of the bricks andmortar physical bookstores.
And a lot of people want tolament that, and I understand
why.
But at the same time, itbrought a great deal of
convenience and speed to thebook buying process.
It actually created a biggerbookshelf, a bigger bookstore.
(20:56):
Now you can have...
One of the big things that...
people in the publishingindustry talk about is that with
Amazon, you actually can havemore backlist available as a
publisher, whereas in the past,you had to have printed books in
a bookstore, but now withe-books, print-on-demand, and
(21:17):
Amazon's ability to stock justabout anything if they need to,
you can keep books alive as apublisher a lot longer than you
used to.
You're not beholden to thelimited environment of
bookstores in the country orbeyond.
So that's one of the reallycool things about it.
(21:38):
But I think we did lose a lotof bookstores, and that is a key
issue that I don't know thatvery many people really talk
about and understand very well.
But bookstores weren't just aplace to go get books.
They were a place to marketbooks.
Publishers relied on bookstoresto drive awareness.
(22:01):
If the book reader was in thebookstores, if that's primarily
where they were, the bookstoreshad exclusive access to where
the books get bought and whobuys them.
And the publishers hadexclusive access to the
bookstores.
Right.
And so if you got a book dealas an author with a publisher,
(22:22):
it meant, okay, you're now inthat network.
The big problem is now withAmazon and even the digital
marketplace, bookstores don'thave that exclusive relationship
to the book buyers anymore.
the book readers.
And so therefore the publishersdon't have that exclusive
(22:45):
access anymore.
And so what are publishersdoing?
They're actually turning towardauthors who are driving
awareness of their books withtheir online platforms and more
directly to Amazon, where ifyou're pitching about your book
online, Or if you're gettingothers to help you pitch it,
(23:06):
it's just a click away to go getthat book.
Whereas in the past, you'd hadto hear about the book word of
mouth, oh, I gotta pick that upat the bookstore sometime.
Great process, great communityfeeling, and it's coming back
some too.
Independent stores are on therise.
But the vast majority of saleshappen, especially for
(23:28):
entry-level authors, they happenonline, most of it on Amazon.
I mean, we're talking 95%.
When we're talking nonfiction,religious slash spiritual books,
95% online for entry-levelauthors.
And that's what you're seeing?
At the grassroots level.
Oh, without a doubt.
I mean, I might even be goingtoo low.
(23:49):
It could be a higherpercentage.
Unbelievable.
Mick (23:51):
Okay.
Well, and that's almost anexclusive, right?
It's like a monopoly.
David (23:56):
I saw that as well, though, when I was a publisher
for HarperCollins' ZondervanVision.
I saw how bricks-and-mortarbookstores were a much smaller
percentage of sales than anybodywanted to admit.
Yeah.
Right.
Mick (24:11):
Yeah.
Yeah, the sales team was alwaysbemoaning the fact that there
were more stores closing.
And I mean, some would open andthey'd be smaller, but a lot of
the larger outlets were goingaway.
Well, and I mean, that wasgoing way back to like when I
first started in 2000 and evenbefore then.
Some of the big box stores thatwere...
(24:32):
Like selling targets and, youknow.
David (24:36):
That was a big movement.
That was just before Amazon.
Mick (24:38):
Yeah, big box stuff.
And then Amazon took over fromthem, and that was a big
disruption.
Yeah.
But yeah, now, like, eventhere's no more Borders, you
know.
Right.
There are several booksellers,but...
It's more smaller and boutique.
David (24:57):
It's still a challenge, though.
I mean, like the Tattered Coverbookstores in the Denver area,
I think there was more than one,right?
They filed for bankruptcy.
And actually, I think they werebought out by Barnes & Noble.
And they're being continued asTattered Cover, but they're
owned by Barnes & Noble.
They got the Barnes & Noblestructure to it.
If not, the branding is morebehind the scenes, perhaps.
Mick (25:19):
And yet you were talking about that article that Barnes &
Noble was moving more towardthat local...
indie kind of feel
David (25:26):
in their bookstores.
That seems to be what's workingfor them right now.
They have, I can't rememberexactly, but it's under 700
stores.
It used to be a lot higher.
Oh, yeah.
But they are taking more of amodel of supporting a retail
store that is a part of thelocal community.
So it might even have its ownname.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Which is different than callingthem all Barnes & Noble
(25:48):
bookstores.
It'll have its own way ofdisplaying the books.
They'll make their own choicesof which books they bring in.
Yeah.
Whereas in the past, it waslike a national buyer who worked
in the New York office forBarnes & Noble.
Mick (26:01):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And was getting everything sortof centralized that way, and
David (26:05):
now
Mick (26:06):
it's much less that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
This is good.
Yeah.
We need to keep going on it.
We could do like severalchapters on publishing
disruption.
We probably could.
How have things beendisruptive?
Who's doing the disrupting?
Yeah.
How do you respond to thedisruption?
Let's think about that.
And then we'll regroup nexttime and see where we pick up.
(26:30):
Sounds good.
All right.
Thanks for being here.
All right.
Look forward to next timealready.
This is Publishing Disrupted, a progressive
Christian indie book publishingpodcast.
Oh, that's a mouthful.
That's a lot of words.
David (00:09):
Yeah, yeah, we'll work on that.
Mick (00:10):
Yeah, but this is, I've got publisher David Morris here
with me, and I'm editor MickSilva, and we're two former
Christian publishing expertstalking about navigating the
progressive independent bookmarket.
David (00:24):
Yeah, yeah.
Mick (00:25):
And we want to explore some of the bigger changes and
questions in the new bookpublishing landscape.
David (00:30):
Yeah, yeah.
I think you did say we'reformer experts.
I like that, actually.
Yeah.
I don't want to be an expertanymore.
And I think that it's thetruth.
The older you get, you realizethe less you know.
Yes.
So let's just say we're formerexperts from here on out.
I will go with that.
(00:50):
I think that makes us morecredible, actually.
I would listen to that.
in the era of authenticity.
Right,
Mick (00:57):
right.
I mean, yeah, accepting that youhave something to share is part
of the reason we're doing this.
But we want to just discusssome of the recent changes
disrupting the book publishingindustry and why we think books
matter, still matter in today'sday and age.
So one of the things thatreally interests me in that
(01:22):
regard is just when I got intobooks, it was for this idea that
we could disrupt things or wecould change things.
Or I don't even know if I had aclear idea about what changes I
was looking for.
I was just excited about that.
But now we get to do thatprofessionally in our daily
lives.
So talking about that, I thinkis part of what we're hoping to
(01:45):
do.
So we were talking about too,like disrupting, like what's
being disrupted in the book,publishing space.
And like, there's two levels ofthat.
There's the book publishingindustry in general, but then
there's like the specificChristian publishing and
evangelical publishing to makemore specific.
David (02:08):
That's the former expert part.
We're both former expertevangelical publishing people.
Mick (02:14):
Good church- going.
Yeah, exactly.
Up until recently.
And now we've made that shiftfrom traditional to independent,
but also from largely Christianto spiritual but not religious.
Is that what you're calling itnow?
Progressive, I guess?
David (02:29):
That covers it.
Mick (02:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, primarily nonfiction.
Yeah.
But there's a lot of challengesthere, and there's overlap in
those two distinctions thatwe're trying to make.
David (02:41):
Mm-hmm.
Mick (02:41):
Mm-hmm.
David (02:41):
So...
Talk about what you, you know,with regard to the title of the
show, Publishing Disrupted, yousaid...
that you got into publishing todisrupt things a little bit.
And I think that's a very coreparadigmatic thought about why
(03:03):
we're in publishing.
We're in publishing not just toput books on an assembly line
and edit them well and designthem well and publish and market
and distribute them well, butwe're there to...
to do something that is calledcreative expression, which
(03:26):
inherently is perhapsdisruptive.
How would you describe thatyounger editor that got into
publishing what you wanted todo?
Mick (03:39):
That's a good question.
Well, I immediately want toturn it around because it's
uncomfortable.
I feel like maybe you cananswer this as well.
Just briefly, I think myinterest was there is the ivory
tower concept of traditionalpublishing that is done with
excellence and editors decidewhat what books they want to
(04:00):
publish and they they figure outi mean ideally they're going to
sell well and make money butreally the the driving um force
for publishing is what's a goodconversation that we need to
have where do i see a hole inthe market or just an
opportunity to a publishedrecognizable author on a
(04:25):
particular topic.
And that really interested me.
I wanted to have thoseconversations.
I still feel like that's what'sdriving my desire to both read
and publish books.
The editing work that I do isalways looking to do it with
excellence, yes, and learn thatthat is a skill that you can
develop, but to have theseconversations that aren't being
(04:48):
had, or really aren't evenpossible any other way.
Maybe in a long-formdocumentary, but even articles,
newspapers, YouTube now, TVshows, there's so many ways that
media is being offered topeople.
But in a book, you're getting,ideally, a very synthesized and
(05:12):
polished message that's gonethrough some pretty rigorous
checks and balances.
And not that the other forms ofmedia aren't, but a book is
special in a way that thoseother types aren't.
David (05:30):
I was just reading an article on independent
publishing, particularly in thecase of women, queer, and black
publishing, but it was mostlyabout women publishing.
There's been a lot ofindependent publishing
publishers yeah publishing moreliterary perhaps content for
decades literally more on aindependent under the radar
(05:52):
grassroots level um and one ofthe things one of the one of the
people quoted in the articlei'm not remembering who it was
at the moment but um she wastalking about how um at a lot of
larger publishing housesthere's it's a lot of copycat
into trends, copycat publishing.
Where I worked, my first biggerfull-time publishing job was at
(06:18):
Guidepost Magazine.
So it's an inspirationalmagazine, and they had a large
book publishing businessattached to it.
Yeah, it was a pretty bigbusiness because they had a huge
mailing list.
It was direct mail, directresponse, publishing.
And the...
There was a lot of power tothis, but we tested everything
(06:41):
we did.
We had these mailing lists sowe could do market testing and
see which products would workthe best.
The weakness of that, which Ifelt like I was bumping up
against a lot, was, well, we'rejust kind of going along with
what the felt needs are ratherthan helping to define the felt
(07:01):
needs.
Yes.
And sometimes, especially inthe religious marketplace, that
can get pretty sugary.
A lot of the sugary stuff willrise to the top and not a lot of
meaty stuff.
So maybe that's one way thatwe're disrupting.
We're actually providingthings.
I mean, these are religiousmetaphors, but I used to think
(07:23):
of it as, well, if you're apreacher in front of a pulpit,
you don't tell people what theywant to hear.
You tell them what they...
what they need to hear.
They need,
Mick (07:32):
yeah.
What you think God's giving youto tell them.
Yeah.
David (07:36):
Yeah.
And I think, you know, evenjust taking the religious part
out of it, that's what our jobis.
Yeah.
It's sort of even to disruptthat, you know, lowest common
denominator, I want the candy, Iwant the cookies on the lower
shelf.
Yes.
Sugary stuff.
But to inspire people to godeeper.
Yeah.
(07:57):
Yeah.
Yeah, and I think that's just aconstant struggle, commercial
versus commercial.
What's the opposite ofcommercial?
Mick (08:10):
Well, I mean, it's so popular.
I mean, sometimes they putliterary.
It's artificial, but I'm goingto say something like the ivory
tower idea I was talking aboutbefore.
It's this idea that classictraditional publishing is
highbrow.
or is exceptional in some ways.
It's well researched, it'sdocumented, there's a paper
(08:32):
trail on the stuff you say.
You're not just coming up withwhatever's popular.
Which I do, I start therebecause I do think that was my
initial attraction topublishing.
And it can be an elitist idea.
I think I had a lot of elitism.
It was undiagnosed at the time,and now I'm hopefully getting
(08:53):
cured of some of that.
But I don't want to let go ofthis idea that, like you
mentioned the preacher in thepulpit, the feeling like we have
a message to share, whetherthat's coming from God or just
from the burning passion of yourheart, that you want to put
that in a format that is arespectable, time-honored
tradition.
(09:13):
At the same time, to disruptwhat's common right now, I
guess, with the popular bookpublishing market, that we
wanted to talk about celebritybooks.
A lot of the stuff that's beingpublished right now is just not
of that high quality thatpreviously all books tended to
(09:38):
be.
Now anyone can publish a book,and so there's just a lot more
competition And the forces formaking something more sugary and
popular are stronger than ever.
That's what's being disrupted.
That's what we see as beingdisrupted.
There's more sugar and lessnutrition, if you want to
(09:58):
oversimplify it.
We'd like to bring back some ofthe nutrition, and yet there's
nothing wrong with having somesugar.
I mean, obviously, it's got tohave something that's attractive
to it, too.
I like the term, it's anamalgamation, but like
edutainment.
We want to educate people, butentertaining them is necessary
(10:19):
in today's new media landscape,however you want to phrase that.
So there's kind of a balancethere.
So yeah, maybe publishingdisrupted it works on two
levels.
It's that it is being disruptedand we need to understand how
that's happening, why that'shappening, what it looks like,
and then how do we want torespond with our own disruptive
(10:43):
forces or interests.
David (10:47):
You've talked about how you've worked on a lot of books
and with a lot of authors overthe years.
Yeah.
And you kind of don't want todo that same thing anymore.
Right.
And you're kind of disruptingyourself at the moment.
I am too.
You are too.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We're both doing that.
(11:07):
So what are we trying to...
We're trying to break free frombeing in that sort of copycat
mainstream flow.
It's less commercially viable.
Right.
There's smaller paychecksinvolved.
Less money, for sure.
Mick (11:25):
Yeah.
David (11:25):
And that's kind of true for publishing in general
anyway, with the way it'sstructured now.
Mick (11:30):
Yeah, anyone going into publishing for making money
needs to think again.
Right, right.
It's
David (11:36):
there, but there's a formula to it, and sometimes it
involves being a celebrity inthe first place.
Mick (11:46):
Well, just wearing a lot of hats.
I'm admiring of what you dowith the publishing role at Lake
Drive.
Like drive books.
That's something we definitelywant to talk about.
I mean, and just to say likeyour, the roles that you have as
publisher and, you know, aconsultant basically to the
(12:08):
authors you work with tends torequire you to wear a lot of
hats and figure things out onthe, on the fly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's, that's part of thatdisruption that's going on.
I don't want to work with theauthors who I think believe in
that old concept of, ofpublishing that, that, you know,
(12:29):
You get a book manuscript, youcreate a proposal, you find an
editor and an agent, and they goand publish and sell your book.
I think that's the traditionalmodel that a lot of authors
have.
And that's typically how I wasfinding people at writers'
conferences and throughrecommendations of people.
(12:51):
And I was just finding that ifthey're not into actually
learning the publishing part ofit, editing as well, doing some
self-editing and doing someself-publishing.
They're not going to be a goodauthor.
They need to understand thatthose roles are required now.
There are tasks to learn, butthey're not unlearnable.
David (13:15):
Yeah, yeah.
I do think that on the whole,most authors...
over time as authors, when youpublish more than one book, you
start learning about howpublishing works.
It's not just you working inyour writer's shed and producing
manuscripts that then otherpeople handle.
No, I think even the ones whostart out that way, especially
(13:38):
the ones who become reallysuccessful, except for maybe
some sort of caricaturedversions of what authors are,
but most of them start learningwhat is it that their editor...
is challenged with at theirjob.
What is it that their publisheris trying to do?
What's working?
What's not working?
Right.
I mean, there are authors whodon't want to know any of that
(13:59):
stuff, but it's usually it'susually a hindrance to them to
not try to learn it some.
And I think, too, it's it'ssort of like anything.
You know, your author work islike a full time job.
And and so as a full time job,or as something you really care
about, don't you want to takeseriously all the facets to it?
(14:19):
Not just your writing craft,not just your ideas.
but also how you personallymarket the book.
Right.
You know, that the whole thatbig platform question.
What what are the what are thethings that the publishing
partners that you surroundyourself with need to do their
jobs well, like publishers andeditors, the sales team?
(14:42):
You know, how can you helpequip them?
It's almost like authorsthemselves should take courses
in publishing and just learnabout the business, because
eventually if they want to be assuccessful as they might want
to be, then therefore they'regoing to want to learn about
those things so why not giveyourself a leg up that's right
Mick (14:58):
yeah yeah I like that I think there's more there's more
than ever available to helpauthors do that mm-hmm I mean
I'm seeing it all the time Isubscribe to a lot of podcasts
and as I know you do sub stacksand blogs websites other authors
who have done this and areoffering their tips yeah you
know how to sell You know, andit's very particular.
(15:22):
Especially when we're talkingabout nonfiction and then
specifically progressive orindie nonfiction.
How are you doing that asopposed to say, you know, a big
or traditional house with acontract?
You know, there's a lot ofchallenging and exciting things
taking place there.
So I think we wanted to discusssome of that.
(15:44):
Some of our background.
you know, how that becomesrelevant.
Uh, some of the things thatare, um, uh, frustrating to us
and some of the reasons we'removing in this direction and
trying to shift into a, uh,less, um, um, less, I don't know
(16:07):
what we want to say, but makingless money, uh, but like less
important as well.
I mean, you had a title, youhad, you had, uh, you know, a
title with that paycheck, youknow, that brought you a lot of
clout and visibility even.
Health
David (16:24):
insurance, pre-tax dollars donated to a 401k.
Mick (16:27):
This was nice to have, you know, and, you know, we're not
going to make any bones aboutthat.
But like a lot of people, Ithink, who approached publishing
initially, like you're, as astudent, I mean, to your
question, I was looking atinternships.
I was trying to find a foot inthe door just to see where could
(16:49):
I start in publishing,basically to learn the trade and
learn how to do it withexcellence.
And I was really fortunate tofind some people who were
willing to help me to learn whatI hadn't learned in college.
Just some of the skills and,you know, working initially on
CIP data, that cataloging inpublication program for Library
(17:12):
of Congress.
You did some of that?
Submitting all of thosedocuments.
Yeah.
So that's part of theeditorial, you know, tasks.
Right.
And then, you know, running,it's basically the mailroom
stuff, you know, routing thingsinterdepartmentally so you can
learn who's who and where theywork and things like that.
And then working your way up.
That's basically what anyonewho's going into publishing now,
(17:36):
I don't know that they're,there's like the two roads.
And my daughter is 18 years oldand she's trying to get into
editing.
She's like, do I want to workin-house or do I want to just do
it on my own?
The professional track that Itook, I don't know, maybe that's
not as viable anymore.
David (17:58):
Right. So the in-house track.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think in today's gigeconomy, it's less so.
In the remote worker economy,it's less so of an issue for
sure.
And there's also fewereditorial positions, I would
venture to say, with all theconsolidation that's gone on.
(18:19):
And there's quite a few ofpeople like you and me who were
in the corporate environment andthen were not for one reason or
another.
Right.
And a lot of it is theconsolidation part.
A lot of it is the pressures ofthe industry that publishers
are facing.
So I think in a way thatactually creates that sort of
(18:41):
points in the direction that nottrying to aspire to the
corporate route, if we'retalking about getting into
publishing.
Now we're talking about gettinginto publishing.
But it kind of gets back to theissue of publishing is far more
grassroots now than it used tobe.
There's much more of a universeof grassroots work and
(19:02):
publishing going on.
And there's opportunity there.
It's not necessarily associatedwith the big, stable corporate
job and payroll situation.
Mick (19:12):
Right.
David (19:12):
Um, but if you can learn about publishing, even as like
an author slash editor, youknow, that's a, that's another
model.
No one really talks about outloud, but there, I know quite a
few people who that's what theyare.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mick (19:24):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, and I mean, that's whatI'm aspiring to now too.
I mean, it might as well writea bit as well, you know?
And I think you too, like evencoming from more of the academic
world, like trying to write aswell as, publish and edit.
You know, you're doing a lot ofediting of the books that
you're working on as well.
(19:45):
So yeah, again, wearing a bunchof hats, but that's part of the
disruption, right?
How publishing has changed.
There's just a lot more of, youknow, just get your hands dirty
and learn how to do ityourself.
Right, right.
Yeah.
David (19:58):
Yeah.
Could we talk about the, likewhat has really disrupted the
industry more than anything?
Like from a structural point ofview anyway?
Yeah.
Mick (20:09):
Yeah, what do you see?
David (20:10):
Itn he last 20 years, you've experienced this.
We've both been in publishingthroughout the big digital
disruption, the way the digitalmarketplace has changed, the way
that books are distributed andsold and distributed as well as
discovered.
Right.
So the biggest thing I like topoint to is just that when
(20:32):
Amazon came on the scene, ittook a little while, but...
We lost most of the bricks andmortar physical bookstores.
And a lot of people want tolament that, and I understand
why.
But at the same time, itbrought a great deal of
convenience and speed to thebook buying process.
It actually created a biggerbookshelf, a bigger bookstore.
(20:56):
Now you can have...
One of the big things that...
people in the publishingindustry talk about is that with
Amazon, you actually can havemore backlist available as a
publisher, whereas in the past,you had to have printed books in
a bookstore, but now withe-books, print-on-demand, and
(21:17):
Amazon's ability to stock justabout anything if they need to,
you can keep books alive as apublisher a lot longer than you
used to.
You're not beholden to thelimited environment of
bookstores in the country orbeyond.
So that's one of the reallycool things about it.
(21:38):
But I think we did lose a lotof bookstores, and that is a key
issue that I don't know thatvery many people really talk
about and understand very well.
But bookstores weren't just aplace to go get books.
They were a place to marketbooks.
Publishers relied on bookstoresto drive awareness.
(22:01):
If the book reader was in thebookstores, if that's primarily
where they were, the bookstoreshad exclusive access to where
the books get bought and whobuys them.
And the publishers hadexclusive access to the
bookstores.
Right.
And so if you got a book dealas an author with a publisher,
(22:22):
it meant, okay, you're now inthat network.
The big problem is now withAmazon and even the digital
marketplace, bookstores don'thave that exclusive relationship
to the book buyers anymore.
the book readers.
And so therefore the publishersdon't have that exclusive
(22:45):
access anymore.
And so what are publishersdoing?
They're actually turning towardauthors who are driving
awareness of their books withtheir online platforms and more
directly to Amazon, where ifyou're pitching about your book
online, Or if you're gettingothers to help you pitch it,
(23:06):
it's just a click away to go getthat book.
Whereas in the past, you'd hadto hear about the book word of
mouth, oh, I gotta pick that upat the bookstore sometime.
Great process, great communityfeeling, and it's coming back
some too.
Independent stores are on therise.
But the vast majority of saleshappen, especially for
(23:28):
entry-level authors, they happenonline, most of it on Amazon.
I mean, we're talking 95%.
When we're talking nonfiction,religious slash spiritual books,
95% online for entry-levelauthors.
And that's what you're seeing?
At the grassroots level.
Oh, without a doubt.
I mean, I might even be goingtoo low.
(23:49):
It could be a higherpercentage.
Unbelievable.
Mick (23:51):
Okay.
Well, and that's almost anexclusive, right?
It's like a monopoly.
David (23:56):
I saw that as well, though, when I was a publisher
for HarperCollins' ZondervanVision.
I saw how bricks-and-mortarbookstores were a much smaller
percentage of sales than anybodywanted to admit.
Yeah.
Right.
Mick (24:11):
Yeah.
Yeah, the sales team was alwaysbemoaning the fact that there
were more stores closing.
And I mean, some would open andthey'd be smaller, but a lot of
the larger outlets were goingaway.
Well, and I mean, that wasgoing way back to like when I
first started in 2000 and evenbefore then.
Some of the big box stores thatwere...
(24:32):
Like selling targets and, youknow.
David (24:36):
That was a big movement.
That was just before Amazon.
Mick (24:38):
Yeah, big box stuff.
And then Amazon took over fromthem, and that was a big
disruption.
Yeah.
But yeah, now, like, eventhere's no more Borders, you
know.
Right.
There are several booksellers,but...
It's more smaller and boutique.
David (24:57):
It's still a challenge, though.
I mean, like the Tattered Coverbookstores in the Denver area,
I think there was more than one,right?
They filed for bankruptcy.
And actually, I think they werebought out by Barnes & Noble.
And they're being continued asTattered Cover, but they're
owned by Barnes & Noble.
They got the Barnes & Noblestructure to it.
If not, the branding is morebehind the scenes, perhaps.
Mick (25:19):
And yet you were talking about that article that Barnes &
Noble was moving more towardthat local...
indie kind of feel
David (25:26):
in their bookstores.
That seems to be what's workingfor them right now.
They have, I can't rememberexactly, but it's under 700
stores.
It used to be a lot higher.
Oh, yeah.
But they are taking more of amodel of supporting a retail
store that is a part of thelocal community.
So it might even have its ownname.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Which is different than callingthem all Barnes & Noble
(25:48):
bookstores.
It'll have its own way ofdisplaying the books.
They'll make their own choicesof which books they bring in.
Yeah.
Whereas in the past, it waslike a national buyer who worked
in the New York office forBarnes & Noble.
Mick (26:01):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And was getting everything sortof centralized that way, and
David (26:05):
now
Mick (26:06):
it's much less that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
This is good.
Yeah.
We need to keep going on it.
We could do like severalchapters on publishing
disruption.
We probably could.
How have things beendisruptive?
Who's doing the disrupting?
Yeah.
How do you respond to thedisruption?
Let's think about that.
And then we'll regroup nexttime and see where we pick up.
(26:30):
Sounds good.
All right.
Thanks for being here.
All right.
Look forward to next timealready.
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