November 12, 2024 • 37 mins
In this episode of the Purpose Project, host Leslie Pagel and guest Ethan Beute delve into the nuances of living without a singular life's purpose. They explore ideas on finding meaning, the significance of context, and the question of whether it's enough to live a life that role models integrity and the Golden Rule. They discuss the impact of society's individualistic view on the concept of purpose, and reflect on how personal and collective motivations intersect. Ethan shares his unique perspective on how to navigate life by focusing on the next right thing and finding meaning in everyday actions, rather than adhering to a monolithic life goal.
00:00 Introduction to Purpose Project
00:31 Meet Ethan Beute
01:49 Exploring Life's Purpose
02:17 The Placebo Effect and Purpose
03:11 Personal Reflections on Purpose
05:46 Three Characteristics
07:12 Finding Meaning in Activities
13:23 The Role of Solitude and Reflection
26:21 Purpose vs. Passion
35:48 Concluding Thoughts
Follow Ethan on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ethanbeute/
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Episode Transcript
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(00:05):
Let's face it.
Not everyone is living with alife's purpose, and that is what
we explore on this episode.
Hi, my name is Leslie Pagel, andthis is Purpose Project.
Our guest on the show is EthanBeute.
And our topic is living withouta life's purpose.
(00:26):
It's a fascinating conversationthat you won't want to miss.
Let's take a listen.
Leslie (00:31):
Ethan, thank you so much for being here with me on
Purpose Project.
I'm looking forward to ourconversation on the topic of
life's purpose.
Ethan (00:39):
Uh, me too.
I'm excited to see where itgoes.
I love that you're doing thisand I am honored by the
invitation to participate.
Leslie (00:46):
Thanks for being here.
Before we get into the topic athand, tell us a little bit more
about yourself.
Who is Ethan?
Ethan (00:54):
Uh, gosh, that's a really big and fun way to ask that.
Um, so I'm a husband and afather.
I live pretty simply.
I like to be outside.
I like to run and walk and hike.
I'm a Midwesterner.
Who's lived in Colorado for 18years now.
professionally, I guess I wouldcall myself a communication and
marketing professional.
I've written a couple of books.
I've hosted three shows.
(01:16):
I currently host one of them, ormaybe one and a half, spent the
first half of my career runningmarketing inside local TV
stations.
and then got involved with asoftware startup and helped
pioneer the video, email andvideo messaging space, which was
a joy.
And at a certain point, I feltcompelled to do something
different and I've now landed,in another company that's been
(01:36):
acquired by a company thateveryone's heard of Zillow.
so I'm now, now Zillow, learningand teaching aspects of the real
estate business.
Leslie (01:44):
Well, thanks for sharing a little bit about you.
I am curious.
We're here to talk about thetopic of life's purpose.
Have you discovered your life'spurpose?
Ethan (01:55):
Uh, no, it feels too singular or specific or
monolithic for me.
So no, I mean, I, and we'll getinto all of this, I'm sure, but,
I recognize the importance ofpurpose.
there's certainly better healthoutcomes, in all situations, in
life outcomes for people whohave identified a purpose.
(02:17):
I also know that or I think, Idon't know this for a fact.
my assumption is that theplacebo effect doesn't really
work if that it's a placebo.
And so like, there's this kindof like manufactured aspect of
it to me.
I take the word purpose to belike really important and
meaningful.
I think it's very, very deep.
That's where I go right awaywith it.
(02:37):
You know, essentially why are wehere and how are we supposed to
live?
I think we treat purpose intoday's society and culture as,
what is my individual personallife purpose?
And I, and I mean, just bakedinto that as the idea that
there's no, you know,collective.
We're a very individualisticsociety.
And so like, I don't know thatI, as an individual human being
(03:00):
who was fortunate enough to beborn to the people I was born
to, and the place that I wasborn in at the time that I was
born, uh, that.
I just feel fortunate in all ofthat.
And I guess I've taken most ofthis journey as a, what's the
next right thing?
What's the next interestingthing?
so I guess at some level youcould say I'm being, reactive to
(03:20):
the environment.
I don't think that's a desirablething.
So anyway.
I know I didn't make one singlepoint there.
I'm just you made a lot ofpoints actually, Um, I, I'm just
exploring this idea of purposewith you.
And, and again, that's one ofthe reasons I feel privileged by
the invitation is that.
It's a really, reallyinteresting topic and it's, I
haven't necessarily struggledwith it, but I certainly haven't
found myself resolved and say,this is my life's purpose.
(03:43):
Cause I think it's oftenconflated with, uh, ambition,
and personal ambition.
I think a lot of people are onwhat they think is a holy quest.
It's my life's purpose, but itturns out that really, it's,
it's quite self serving.
And I don't think that's, Thepurpose of our lives or the
purpose of defining a purpose.
Leslie (04:01):
I do want to just take a moment and summarize what I
heard.
Cause I heard a little bit of itfeels big.
It feels like this, thisoverwhelming thing.
you also talked about how you'veseen some of the research behind
it that shows it has somebenefits, living longer and
things like that.
(04:22):
You mentioned a placebo effect,which I want to understand that
point a little bit more, whatyou were talking about there.
and then you also talked aboutthis idea of.
when we think about our life'spurpose, it, it seems very
individualistic and, and notcollective.
Ethan (04:42):
Yeah.
Which isn't necessarily right orwrong.
It's just reflective of how wetreat it in our society, in our
culture, um, placebo, I'm justsaying like, I'm not sure that
it's something that we prescribeor assign ourselves or if it's
something that, uh, that isinnate.
Um, and, and maybe it's revealedto us, maybe it isn't, but that
(05:03):
it's something that's happeningregardless.
And so this idea of like, if Iassign something to myself, it's
got a level of, uh, awarenessand consciousness to it that I
don't know is as powerful asthis thing.
That's just like, it's deeper.
It's innate.
It's baked into us.
It's been there all along andmaybe it's revealed to us.
Maybe it isn't.
Um, Um, maybe we discover it,maybe it isn't, but I think a
(05:26):
lot of this exercise for a lotof people, especially again,
when it gets bled into, inparticular, like the words I'll
use are ambition and, or like acommercial motivation or a,
material motivation, itdistances itself from what I
think purpose is about, butthat's just my own conception of
it.
Leslie (05:45):
Yeah.
One of the things that, I havelearned is some of the
researchers define purpose ashaving three elements and one
is, one is goal assertion.
So that is about achieving goal.
The other is about, doingsomething for purposes of
(06:05):
others.
so that kind of gets to thecollective nature, when it's,
not for self, but for others.
And then the third is purposeis, when we do something that's
personally meaningful, it meanssomething to us, but it's for
others and we're trying toachieve something.
Ethan (06:23):
Yeah.
Okay.
So a couple of things on thatwith regard to me and, why I've.
launched into this conversationthe way that I have like, you
know, and I, to say that I'm notgoal oriented isn't fair, but I
will also just add as just aminor detail just to
characterize my relationship toit, I run and I've been running
for decades.
(06:44):
I don't run with a clock.
I don't really know how far Irun.
I would never pay money to startat some starting line and finish
at some finish line and get thet shirt for it.
Like I run for like personalreasons.
I like, I enjoy the experience.
It does a lot of differentthings for me.
But I don't really care abouthow far or how fast and how I'm
(07:07):
doing relative to other people.
So that's a little bit there.
And then.
The meaning, like I find, I'mlooking for meaning all of the
time.
Um, and I find it in a lot ofplaces.
And when I think about the workthat I've done, some of it,
professional and paid some ofit, just things that I do
myself.
I characterize it by like fun,interesting, and challenging.
(07:30):
When something is fun andinteresting and challenging.
I find that like engaging andmeaningful and something I want
to continue to pursue.
And at different times in mylife and my career, if one of
those three is missing or out ofbalance, then, it starts to come
like, is it time to move on oris it time to do something
different?
Or what can I change about myrole or about the situation, to
(07:52):
keep those things in balance?
And I guess, that's anotherapproach to, uh, finding meaning
or purpose in what I'm doing isthat it's, it's all of those
things, but I don't know thatthere, that, that, that levels
up to my own conception ofdefining a life's purpose,
Leslie (08:07):
is it, and you mentioned this, that it feels big, it
feels overwhelming.
It also feels like it'ssingular.
Um, yeah,
Ethan (08:18):
yeah.
It's like, like my whole life isfor this one clearly defined
purpose.
Like I just don't life is like.
It's so mysterious and wonderfuland interesting that I feel like
it minimizes the experience orso this is the tension, I guess,
(08:38):
in that for me go a little bitalong for the ride.
See what it has to offer.
Pursue things that feel healthyand right and good.
Connect with people who feelhealthy and right and good and
keep learning and growing andhaving fun and staying
intellectually and physicallyengaged in what's going on, uh,
spiritually engaged if that's,where you're being lit, in that
(09:00):
way or by that person orwhatever.
On the other side, progress orachievement or outcome, or let's
just go to impact.
is certainly threatened by thisidea of going along for the
experience and seeing what ithas to offer.
Not that you can't achieve inthat first path that I
(09:20):
described, but certainly if youdefined a singular life purpose
and just really committed to it.
a great deal more of your timeand energy to this thing or in
this direction or toward thisoutcome or this impact, you'd
certainly, make more progress ormake more impact.
But, and I don't know if it's myfear of failure.
Um, but I just don't feelcompelled to limit my experience
(09:46):
in this one go round, in pursuitof, of one direction and making
impact only in that zone.
Leslie (09:54):
If you take that element out of the concept of life's
purpose and we make it plural.
We have purposes in our lifeand, they can come and go as we
move through life.
Does that change any of yourthinking?
Ethan (10:13):
Um, not really.
I mean, I, I, at that point thenit doesn't, um, it doesn't do
the same job.
I don't think in that case, Ifeel like we're kind of like
retrofitting Or, or currentfitting something as opposed to,
you know, when I think about thepurpose, it's like, where are we
going?
(10:33):
And, and why are we here?
And so it's what's my direction,and motivation and intended
outcome and purpose.
You know, I think the exerciseitself is to orient oneself in a
direction.
I think otherwise it becomeskind of project work.
Um, but I, or, or maybe you'redescribing my approach, which
really is.
thing for me right now.
And I, I wouldn't, I personallywouldn't level that up to, you
(10:56):
know, my life's purpose, um, orsay that my, although I have
used this language now thatyou've gotten me like deep into
this is like, I've used thatlanguage before, like in a
previous role, um, I was, I wasat a company for almost a dozen
years, but.
In that I had many seasons andone of the questions I would ask
myself, Is my work done here?
Have I done what I'm supposed todo here?
(11:17):
And I guess another way to askthat question is, is my purpose
in this context served, uh, isthis, is this chapter worth,
putting a period on closing andturning the page?
Um, so I guess I have thought inthat way too.
Leslie (11:31):
Yeah.
Which that feels very reflectiveas opposed to, proactive.
I don't know what the oppositeis.
Ethan (11:40):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Leslie (11:41):
Yeah.
So the, the question that I'veseen that comes up in this view
of life's purpose flowsthroughout our life is what is
life asking of me now?
To me, that question takes itout of the project base and more
of a, where do I need to bespending my time, my energy, my
(12:03):
care, my concern with what'shappening in my life today, Does
that change anything for you?
Ethan (12:11):
Uh, language I've used for that is like, what's the
next right step or what's thenext right thing?
Because it's all we can reallydo, at some level.
So yes, but it also, again,takes away some of the fun and.
Challenge of figuring out thegreater purpose, which again, I,
I mean, obviously I'm willingand able to, and I like dwelling
in, the theoretical or thephilosophical, I like wondering
(12:35):
about these things.
That's why I don't have acommitment to any of these
things.
And I wouldn't say I'm asubscriber to anyone's school of
thought or anyone practiceeither.
So it definitely changes theconversation around it and can
make it more useful for adifferent type of person.
and I would entertain that.
Leslie (12:50):
Yeah.
The other thing that, I'm struckby is I'm envisioning you
Ethan's Out there running outthere, hiking out there, being
in the environment.
And when I envision that Ienvision someone going inside,
thinking inside, letting theirmind wander, letting their mind
(13:12):
be quiet.
And I've found that that, actionis what I'm starting to call a
prerequisite for purpose.
To find your purpose whetherit's in the moment or for your
whole entire life thisunderstanding of self this self
awareness is necessary and soi'm I find myself curious
(13:34):
someone that spends a lot Wellone I might be wrong on how your
mind is spent when you're outthere running and walking But if
it is spent more quieting andlistening and allowing your mind
to wander and this notconnection to a purpose.
In life anyway, I don't know ifthat makes any sense.
(13:56):
And if it does, if you have areaction to that,
Ethan (14:00):
Uh, I think there's a very strong historical basis for
repetitive, physical motion andthought.
You find that to be a thing andyou find it across cultures as
well.
So there's absolutely somethingto, um, repetitive physical
motion and thought that occurs.
Uh, but with, for, for myself inthe morning, I'm always running,
silently.
(14:20):
It's very often allowing my mindto wander.
I've tried setting my mind ontoa topic to see if I could work
something out, but I, I, again,that feels a little bit too
forced to me.
Uh, so I do let it wander.
Uh, occasionally I'll, use amantra along with it.
If I go out for, you know, twoand a half, three hours for a
morning hike on a Saturday orSunday morning at a, I always
(14:40):
prefer to do it by myself, andusually half the time I'll
listen to, uh, podcasts or musicand then half the time.
Um, I'll just, you know, unplug.
Put it all down and, uh, andagain, and allow my mind to, do
its thing.
One of the ways that I thinkabout this is, eating, right?
We all know that we should stopeating at a certain point.
(15:01):
Even if we're eating really goodthings, you can eat too much and
your body can't digest it.
You need to stop, and allow itto digest.
And I think the same thing istrue of our minds.
I think in the way that we livetoday, we're constantly
consuming ideas and information,even if it's something that we
generally would regard as morehealthy, like reading a book, or
whether it's something that wewould regard as more junk food,
(15:23):
like just constantly flippingshorts or reels or whatever the
case may be.
All of those things, I think youwould not be doing yourself,
well or right, to not take thistime to allow your mind to do
whatever it needs to do with theideas and information that are
there, but I do know from my ownexperience, that that time and
(15:45):
space.
Even if it's just allowing yourmind to wander or allowing you
to sit in silence and in somesense of solitude, uh, not
loneliness, but solitude, uh,that something is really healthy
about that.
Leslie (15:58):
Yeah.
But the question that I'mwondering is.
If the act of doing that helpsyou discover your purpose, it
brings it clarity.
And what I'm seeing for you isthat's not a part of the outcome
of your solidarity, allowing themind to wander, it's not
(16:19):
bringing clarity in yourpurpose.
Ethan (16:22):
Yeah, no, not necessarily.
It does bring clarity in avariety of things.
I mean, I've done creative workmy entire career, essentially
making things that didn't existbefore.
It's like for about a decadenow, I've literally manufactured
my own work.
What am I going to do thisquarter?
What am I going to, it's alignedwith the greater organization,
but essentially I'm responsiblefor not just manufacturing
(16:43):
things out of thin air, but alsomanufacturing what it is that
I'm going to manufacture.
Right.
And so that, like thatcreativity requires that space.
And I found that like some ofthe best insights, I guess, like
the, the, to help me with thenext right step or the next
right thing, or to solve thatproblem, or to answer that
(17:03):
question, um, or to close thatgap.
It occurs to me not at a timethat I decide it needs, you
know, sometimes you have to makea decision.
Like I got to make a decision bythree o'clock today.
So you just have to make thedecision.
But in other cases, you, youhave the privilege of allowing
things to occur to you.
And I, that, that's what thatprocess is about for me.
I will say, some of the joy andgratitude that I experienced
(17:27):
about my, existence.
Is found in that process.
So meaning like this idea ofthat, that's the other way to, I
think about it too, is like,not, is this thing that I'm
doing right now or for the nextfour years, does it have meaning
or does it provide me withmeaning?
Um, fun and interesting andchallenging.
(17:49):
Is it those things?
Um, I find like, I reflect onwhat is fun about it or what is
interesting about it, or I'mgrateful for.
The fact that I've beenintellectually engaged by this
challenge or topic over the pastseveral months and while you're
in it, you're justintellectually engaged and
challenged.
It's in these times where youcan reflect back and be and
(18:10):
again, this is backward lookingthat forward looking as you
already observed.
Um, but that's also part of howI make sure that I guess, um,
I'm finding meaning in what I'mdoing and I appreciate the
opportunity to do what I'mdoing.
And, and, another word that Idon't think I've introduced here
that I reflect on a lot isenough.
Um, when I think about purposeand ambition and direction and
(18:33):
impact and outcome, I oftenwonder about like, what is
enough?
Have I done enough?
Is this enough?
Um, a lot of people reflect onit enough, but like, I think
enough is a really interestingquestion here.
And when I think about religion,uh, in general, I think it's a
human's collective effort tofigure out, why are we here?
(18:57):
How are we supposed to live andwhat happens when we're gone?
I would just observe thatforever we've been trying to
understand these things.
And so when I say collective,um, I don't just mean, am I
operating in service of otherpeople, but I mean, like, do all
of us being here, whether we'reall aligned in this one school
(19:18):
of thought and practice.
Religion or otherwise, or all ofus together.
Is there a reason for this to behappening?
That's where I'm at withpurpose.
And that's why I struggle withsome of the more base commercial
personally ambitious, egodriven.
Approaches to, to purpose.
One of the reasons I went downthat line and then I'll wrap it
up and give it back to you is,um, the one thing that's common
(19:41):
across all philosophies in majorworld religions who have gone
down this road of trying toanswer these questions, which at
some level is a purpose questionor set of purpose questions, um,
Is some version of the goldenrule.
Dozens of them have arrived atsome version of the golden rule.
And so when I think aboutenough, I think, is it enough to
be the kind of person we wantother people to be?
(20:07):
And this, this again, kind ofgets a little bit at the
collective.
And is that enough of a purpose?
Is it enough of a purpose, apurpose to be this and to model
this With and for other peopleso that other people can
experience and enjoy it, butalso so that other people can
learn it.
And so that this becomesnormative and cultural and that
it becomes passed down becausewe're modeling this behavior,
not just for ourselves and ourpeers and our friends, but also
(20:30):
for our children are in ourchildren's children and our
friends, children, and all ofthis.
And so, is that enough?
I frankly think we might be in abetter place if there's more
time and energy and attentionfocused on that.
And, but the question is, isthat enough?
I would say in.
You know, 2024, 2025 UnitedStates of America.
I don't think that would besatisfactory for a great number
(20:50):
of people in terms of, what theyseek to achieve modeling right
behavior.
Like, but I think that's enough.
Leslie (20:58):
Yeah.
Well, you're speaking to, one ofthe overarching conclusions that
I'm coming to for now.
I mentioned earlier, these threedynamics of, the definition of
purpose and I am coming tobelieve that life's purpose
isn't about achievement, it'snot about goal attainment, it
(21:22):
really is about being.
It's about living in a way whereour actions.
And our behaviors are true toourselves, to our core, our, our
souls.
And, and that requires us to dothe work inside to understand
(21:43):
who is Leslie at her core?
What does she believe in?
What are her values and what arethe actions that she's going to
take to, to live those, in theworld?
So it's more of a state ofbeing.
Then it is an accomplishment,it's a state of being that's
true to oneself.
(22:05):
any reaction to that?
Ethan (22:06):
Uh, integrity and wholeness are definitely part
of, satisfaction.
I think, um, like realsatisfaction, real,
appreciation, real.
value, real achievement,frankly, is this integrity and
wholeness?
And it's not just honesty, whichI think is the most important
thing we can be with ourselvesand with other people, um, is
(22:27):
honest.
Uh, but, but that speaks tothat, like that there's a
consistency and integrity andwholeness in our way of being.
Uh, and I think that is enough.
Leslie (22:39):
Yeah, I do too personally because I, it, it
requires though that you do thework on yourself, you know, and
I do believe.
If we all do that work, if wetake the time to quiet our mind,
let our mind wander, let us bereflective, however we do it.
Um, and that our actions line upwith, with our understanding of
(23:03):
ourselves, that, that we will dogood in the world, we will be
driven by.
A collective mindset, um,instead of an individual
mindset.
But yeah, you're getting me intomy beliefs here, Ethan.
Ethan (23:18):
Well, I mean, that's why I like this conversation so
much.
I mean, I don't know that youcan have it without that.
Otherwise it's, um, let's talkabout career planning, right?
Not that that's not interestingand useful.
And that's a, that's part of thereality that we need to live in.
Um, and I've struggled with thata lot, frankly, too.
I mean, the things that I'mpersonally passionate about, um.
(23:38):
I think two things in particularto two large areas.
One, I think we've becomedisconnected with the natural
environment.
I don't think we have sufficientrespect for it.
I think we we've come to treatit as something separate from
ourselves.
I think ecology and economy areare false dichotomy.
(23:59):
And, and I think the more we uselanguage and behavior to
separate ourselves and to remaindisconnected from the world that
we are truly a part of.
Um, and I think we've absolutelylost touch with that.
Uh, and I think restoring thatconnection is the restoring of
humanity at some level.
And I actually do think it'spart of the integrity and
(24:20):
wholeness conversation as well.
It's not just inward, but wherethat's just, who am I and what
am I about?
What matters to me?
And what does it mean for me tolive rightly?
Um, what does it mean to be avirtuous person, but also what
does it mean in relation toeverything else around me and
everyone else around me?
Um, so that's one, the other oneis, we've obviously become
disconnected from one another.
(24:41):
I think that also results in alot of, um, ill outcomes, a
variety of them in a lot ofdifferent ways.
Uh, but the, but thedisconnection from our, from our
fellow humans, uh, is also afundamental problem.
It's very, very interesting tome.
Um, and I think going inward canhelp, in a lot of different
ways.
I think we'll arrive at some ofthese truths again, like when we
(25:03):
think about, the golden rule, asit's expressed, um, it's
reflected in that, essentially,we're better together, you
know,.
So those are two big problems,but like, I'm not.
I can see aspects of that in my,like, professional work.
Uh, but it's not like I'mstaying up to the middle of the
night and dedicating my weekendsto, figuring out my part in
(25:26):
solving these things at somepoint, I've also been
overwhelmed by them and justsaid, I just don't know what's
to be done here.
Leslie (25:32):
Right, what I also feel like you say is.
I'm going to do my part.
I'm going to live my life in away that is true to the belief
that we're all better together,that honors our environment,,
it's role modeling really.
Ethan (25:48):
Yeah.
But then now here we are back atthis conversation of impact.
You know, if I really wanted tomake progress here, Um, then I
need to find a way to, pay themortgage, keep the fridge full,
take a vacation once in a while,both myself and my family and
also pursue this thing.
(26:09):
That's where I, that's where Igive myself permission not to go
all in on these.
And that's how I arrive at like,is this enough?
And I, I moved back and forthbetween those ideas.
Leslie (26:20):
Yeah.
Well, that concept of impact,um, the, the way that I have
heard it talked about on PurposeProject is, passion.
This idea that we're sopassionate.
About this thing that we'rewilling to, stay up, to do the
(26:41):
things.
and it's when the purpose in mylife.
And this, my passions cometogether is how I'm going to
achieve this purpose.
So any reaction to this conceptof passion behind it.
Ethan (26:55):
Yes, absolutely.
I mean, it's, it's a hundredpercent required.
Uh, if you are to, to go downthat road, I mean, for me, when
I think about it, Um, when I'lljust speak to something,
something that got you and Iconnected in the first place is,
um, you know, I started the showChief Evangelist for fun and
interest.
Like I was interested in it.
The door was open.
(27:16):
It seems fun and interesting andchallenging.
And I did that show mornings,nights, and weekends.
Leslie (27:22):
Uh huh.
Ethan (27:22):
And at a certain point, I changed jobs.
I realized I needed to immersemyself in this new company, and
it fell a little bit behind andthen a couple of things
happened.
My passion was a bit diminished.
Um, But, but, you know, I movedon from it and I spend.
You know, if I'm doing work onmornings, nights and weekends,
(27:44):
which happens regularly for me,it's all been in my current role
that I'm, being paid for and thething that provides the
resources for me to do all theother things in my life.
The reality of my day to dayright now is that if I have four
extra hours, I know wherethey're going to go.
Yeah.
And it's not to that, it's tothis, this other thing that I
(28:07):
do.
Does that mean I'm morepassionate about what I'm doing
now?
I certainly am.
Um, am I more passionate?
I don't know.
Is it more important long term?
I don't know.
Does the world need tounderstand the chief evangelist
role?
I don't know.
Leslie (28:19):
I don't know.
Well, but how about thisquestion?
Did your passion for chiefevangelist for chief evangelism
shift?
Did that change?
Ethan (28:32):
Uh, it did.
It got watered down a littlebit, for a couple of different
ways and a couple of differentreasons.
And so, so now what I'm gettinginto is this kind of outside
motivation, um.
You know, is the work beingvalidated or appreciated by
enough people in the right wayfor me to stay interested in it?
And then it's like, well, youknow, so much wrapped up in it.
It's really interesting.
(28:52):
Um, but I would say, yeah,obviously my level of interest
in energy and passion wasreoriented with a change of
employers.
I'm essentially studying abusiness model that remains
emergent.
In one of the most importantindustries relative to the
United States GDP.
(29:12):
It's a big topic and it's superinteresting.
And so I'm like, if I'm going todedicate a Saturday morning to
doing air air quote work, it'sgoing to be in that area.
So part of that is like, butpart of that is like the
integrity issue that we talkedabout before wholeness.
Like I see myself, I presentmyself.
I believe that I model that I ama conscientious, hardworking
(29:35):
person that has your interestsin mind as my employer, just as
I have my own interests in mind.
But the benefit that I get outof it among many is that it's
fun and interesting andchallenging, and that brings me
to life,
Leslie (29:46):
Yeah.
So what I heard in that Ethanconnected to the topic of
purpose is sometimes people canget mixed up and My passion is
my purpose.
And I'm thinking no, they're twoseparate things.
Um,
Ethan (30:02):
yeah, but, but, but you know, it is, it's Boolean as
well.
So like where they overlap,you're going to make more
progress and it's going to be,you know, you're going to be
drawn in deeper and faster andall of these other things.
Yeah.
Leslie (30:13):
Yeah.
So, I'm curious.
Purpose Project is the study oflife's purpose.
It's a research project.
That's what it is.
And season one was reallyfocused on people that have
clarity in their life's purpose.
Purpose and they're pursuing it.
And I know that I also need torepresent people like you that
(30:40):
aren't pursuing a life's purposeand it's for these beliefs.
And I'm curious from yourperspective, I see a whole
season dedicated to the otherside when purpose isn't clear,
you know, when you don't believein it.
What are some of the things fromyour perspective that.
That I should be looking atthat.
I should be asking, are therethings that I should have asked
(31:02):
you here that would have gottena little deeper?
Any advice for me?
Ethan (31:07):
Um, I mean, no, nothing that comes to mind and you know,
I wouldn't necessarily putmyself in a camp, but like I'm a
non subscriber in general.
Like I'm a, I'm an open andcurious person and I want to
like, Engage in what's in frontof me and I'll debate both sides
of any issue just to explore,like if there are two sides of
(31:30):
these things.
So.
Um, you know, I think you'regoing to find my assumption is
that you're going to find a lotmore.
I don't knows, or, um, I've gonedown that road and it hasn't
really produced anything or,like it's not around that your
purpose isn't around the cornerwaiting to be found.
It's waiting to be discovered,you know?
Uh, and that's an activeprocess.
(31:50):
And so I think some peopleeither, um, are digging and
digging and digging and they'relike, it's down here somewhere.
Um, or they don't know, or, Idon't think anyone would say
that purpose doesn't matter orthat we don't have any purpose.
Um, I think the people who have,uh, arrived at a conclusion that
there is no purpose to theirlives generally aren't thriving.
(32:12):
Um, uh, in general.
Um, so I think it's more of anexplanation or an exploration
of, um, if your purpose isn'tclear, why not?
Okay.
Leslie (32:24):
Well, it's interesting that you say that because, if
anyone's going to have aconversation with me, chances
are, I'm going to ask them ifthey have a purpose, and one of
the common responses that I'venoticed is.
It is, I think so, or I'm notsure.
It's this hesitancy as opposedto
Ethan (32:45):
so big it's because like, I don't know if this is the
reason I'm here on this earth atthis time.
Right?
Leslie (32:52):
Yes.
And I think what one of thethings that where I'm at is
changing that paradigm, oflife's purpose is really a, of a
way of being, we already talkedabout this, it's about how you
live, um, as opposed to likewhat you accomplish.
But I appreciate that, input ofseeking to understand.
(33:14):
Where the beliefs about purposereally digging into, what's
holding you back, what's keepingyou back, what are your beliefs.
Ethan (33:23):
I think the questions are, you know, why are we here
and how are we supposed to live?
Um, I do think it is enough justto be the, be, it is cliche as
heck to say, but be the changeor be the, Um, the good that you
want to see in the world doesn'teven need to be changed, but you
know, be the change or be thegood.
(33:44):
and if you happen to bepassionate enough and clear
enough, that you can devoteyourself and ideally you would
align it with making a livingto, making real progress and
making real impact in a specificway.
But I do think it's enough.
To be present, to be present ingood and healthy and positive
and constructive ways, thatmodel right behavior for anyone
(34:06):
who's paying attention and thatallow you to really enjoy and
appreciate the experience, uh,that we uniquely have here, uh,
as humans today on this earth.
Leslie (34:16):
Yeah.
Anything left unsaid on thetopic of purpose from your
perspective,
Ethan (34:23):
I could go another hour, but like, it's mostly exploring
because again, I'm not superclear in these thoughts.
And I think that's also,reflective of your motivation
and what your accomplishment canbe here is that, I think the
popular conversation aroundpurpose is generally very self
serving and even, material.
I think you're obviously comingat it from a different
(34:43):
perspective.
And even with someone like me,who is, is a relatively
reflective person.
You know, I'm curious aboutthese things and it's important.
But, um, I'm interested in thesetopics and I don't have answers.
I think there are a lot ofpeople out there like that.
Leslie (34:58):
Yeah, you
Ethan (34:59):
already, you already mentioned in the way that people
respond to the questions likemaybe like things that matter to
me or, you know, things, youknow, these thoughts that are
recurring for me, but I don'tknow what to do with them or
these things that like, like me,but like, what do I do about
that?
that, you know, or can I alignthat with my, you know, career
(35:19):
and that's, that becomesdifficult for a lot of people
too.
So you wind up settling backinto the reality of their
situation, which is, you know,the patterns of daily life and
getting kids from here to thereand showing up for work and
doing enough and making the zoomcall on time and blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Next thing you know, you know, aweek's gone, a month's gone, a
year's gone.
And you're left reflectingagain.
(35:39):
What am I doing all this for?
Right.
Right.
And it's enough that you'redoing it.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Leslie (35:47):
Yeah.
Well, I appreciate you being onthe show.
I appreciate you, modeling good,in our world and, um, thank you
Ethan for being here.
Ethan (36:00):
Yeah.
Thank you.
I appreciate what you're doing.
And again, it was fun and aprivilege to be a part of.
Leslie (36:05):
I've listened to this conversation with Ethan over and
over, and there are two thingsthat really stand out for me.
The first is that while some ofus might not be living our lives
in pursuit of a purpose, itdoesn't mean that we aren't
living our lives with meaning.
The second is this question thatEthan brought into the show of,
(36:29):
is it enough?
That question really resonateswith me.
And it's a question I'm going tocontinue to ask myself as I
pursue my life's purpose, Ethan,thank you for being on the show
and thanks to all of you fortuning in.
(36:52):
Purpose Project is brought toyou for education and for
entertainment purposes.
This podcast is not intended toreplace the advice that you
would receive from a licensedtherapist or doctor or any other
qualified professional.
Let's face it.
Not everyone is living with alife's purpose, and that is what
we explore on this episode.
Hi, my name is Leslie Pagel, andthis is Purpose Project.
Our guest on the show is EthanBeute.
And our topic is living withouta life's purpose.
(00:26):
It's a fascinating conversationthat you won't want to miss.
Let's take a listen.
Leslie (00:31):
Ethan, thank you so much for being here with me on
Purpose Project.
I'm looking forward to ourconversation on the topic of
life's purpose.
Ethan (00:39):
Uh, me too.
I'm excited to see where itgoes.
I love that you're doing thisand I am honored by the
invitation to participate.
Leslie (00:46):
Thanks for being here.
Before we get into the topic athand, tell us a little bit more
about yourself.
Who is Ethan?
Ethan (00:54):
Uh, gosh, that's a really big and fun way to ask that.
Um, so I'm a husband and afather.
I live pretty simply.
I like to be outside.
I like to run and walk and hike.
I'm a Midwesterner.
Who's lived in Colorado for 18years now.
professionally, I guess I wouldcall myself a communication and
marketing professional.
I've written a couple of books.
I've hosted three shows.
(01:16):
I currently host one of them, ormaybe one and a half, spent the
first half of my career runningmarketing inside local TV
stations.
and then got involved with asoftware startup and helped
pioneer the video, email andvideo messaging space, which was
a joy.
And at a certain point, I feltcompelled to do something
different and I've now landed,in another company that's been
(01:36):
acquired by a company thateveryone's heard of Zillow.
so I'm now, now Zillow, learningand teaching aspects of the real
estate business.
Leslie (01:44):
Well, thanks for sharing a little bit about you.
I am curious.
We're here to talk about thetopic of life's purpose.
Have you discovered your life'spurpose?
Ethan (01:55):
Uh, no, it feels too singular or specific or
monolithic for me.
So no, I mean, I, and we'll getinto all of this, I'm sure, but,
I recognize the importance ofpurpose.
there's certainly better healthoutcomes, in all situations, in
life outcomes for people whohave identified a purpose.
(02:17):
I also know that or I think, Idon't know this for a fact.
my assumption is that theplacebo effect doesn't really
work if that it's a placebo.
And so like, there's this kindof like manufactured aspect of
it to me.
I take the word purpose to belike really important and
meaningful.
I think it's very, very deep.
That's where I go right awaywith it.
(02:37):
You know, essentially why are wehere and how are we supposed to
live?
I think we treat purpose intoday's society and culture as,
what is my individual personallife purpose?
And I, and I mean, just bakedinto that as the idea that
there's no, you know,collective.
We're a very individualisticsociety.
And so like, I don't know thatI, as an individual human being
(03:00):
who was fortunate enough to beborn to the people I was born
to, and the place that I wasborn in at the time that I was
born, uh, that.
I just feel fortunate in all ofthat.
And I guess I've taken most ofthis journey as a, what's the
next right thing?
What's the next interestingthing?
so I guess at some level youcould say I'm being, reactive to
(03:20):
the environment.
I don't think that's a desirablething.
So anyway.
I know I didn't make one singlepoint there.
I'm just you made a lot ofpoints actually, Um, I, I'm just
exploring this idea of purposewith you.
And, and again, that's one ofthe reasons I feel privileged by
the invitation is that.
It's a really, reallyinteresting topic and it's, I
haven't necessarily struggledwith it, but I certainly haven't
found myself resolved and say,this is my life's purpose.
(03:43):
Cause I think it's oftenconflated with, uh, ambition,
and personal ambition.
I think a lot of people are onwhat they think is a holy quest.
It's my life's purpose, but itturns out that really, it's,
it's quite self serving.
And I don't think that's, Thepurpose of our lives or the
purpose of defining a purpose.
Leslie (04:01):
I do want to just take a moment and summarize what I
heard.
Cause I heard a little bit of itfeels big.
It feels like this, thisoverwhelming thing.
you also talked about how you'veseen some of the research behind
it that shows it has somebenefits, living longer and
things like that.
(04:22):
You mentioned a placebo effect,which I want to understand that
point a little bit more, whatyou were talking about there.
and then you also talked aboutthis idea of.
when we think about our life'spurpose, it, it seems very
individualistic and, and notcollective.
Ethan (04:42):
Yeah.
Which isn't necessarily right orwrong.
It's just reflective of how wetreat it in our society, in our
culture, um, placebo, I'm justsaying like, I'm not sure that
it's something that we prescribeor assign ourselves or if it's
something that, uh, that isinnate.
Um, and, and maybe it's revealedto us, maybe it isn't, but that
(05:03):
it's something that's happeningregardless.
And so this idea of like, if Iassign something to myself, it's
got a level of, uh, awarenessand consciousness to it that I
don't know is as powerful asthis thing.
That's just like, it's deeper.
It's innate.
It's baked into us.
It's been there all along andmaybe it's revealed to us.
Maybe it isn't.
Um, Um, maybe we discover it,maybe it isn't, but I think a
(05:26):
lot of this exercise for a lotof people, especially again,
when it gets bled into, inparticular, like the words I'll
use are ambition and, or like acommercial motivation or a,
material motivation, itdistances itself from what I
think purpose is about, butthat's just my own conception of
it.
Leslie (05:45):
Yeah.
One of the things that, I havelearned is some of the
researchers define purpose ashaving three elements and one
is, one is goal assertion.
So that is about achieving goal.
The other is about, doingsomething for purposes of
(06:05):
others.
so that kind of gets to thecollective nature, when it's,
not for self, but for others.
And then the third is purposeis, when we do something that's
personally meaningful, it meanssomething to us, but it's for
others and we're trying toachieve something.
Ethan (06:23):
Yeah.
Okay.
So a couple of things on thatwith regard to me and, why I've.
launched into this conversationthe way that I have like, you
know, and I, to say that I'm notgoal oriented isn't fair, but I
will also just add as just aminor detail just to
characterize my relationship toit, I run and I've been running
for decades.
(06:44):
I don't run with a clock.
I don't really know how far Irun.
I would never pay money to startat some starting line and finish
at some finish line and get thet shirt for it.
Like I run for like personalreasons.
I like, I enjoy the experience.
It does a lot of differentthings for me.
But I don't really care abouthow far or how fast and how I'm
(07:07):
doing relative to other people.
So that's a little bit there.
And then.
The meaning, like I find, I'mlooking for meaning all of the
time.
Um, and I find it in a lot ofplaces.
And when I think about the workthat I've done, some of it,
professional and paid some ofit, just things that I do
myself.
I characterize it by like fun,interesting, and challenging.
(07:30):
When something is fun andinteresting and challenging.
I find that like engaging andmeaningful and something I want
to continue to pursue.
And at different times in mylife and my career, if one of
those three is missing or out ofbalance, then, it starts to come
like, is it time to move on oris it time to do something
different?
Or what can I change about myrole or about the situation, to
(07:52):
keep those things in balance?
And I guess, that's anotherapproach to, uh, finding meaning
or purpose in what I'm doing isthat it's, it's all of those
things, but I don't know thatthere, that, that, that levels
up to my own conception ofdefining a life's purpose,
Leslie (08:07):
is it, and you mentioned this, that it feels big, it
feels overwhelming.
It also feels like it'ssingular.
Um, yeah,
Ethan (08:18):
yeah.
It's like, like my whole life isfor this one clearly defined
purpose.
Like I just don't life is like.
It's so mysterious and wonderfuland interesting that I feel like
it minimizes the experience orso this is the tension, I guess,
(08:38):
in that for me go a little bitalong for the ride.
See what it has to offer.
Pursue things that feel healthyand right and good.
Connect with people who feelhealthy and right and good and
keep learning and growing andhaving fun and staying
intellectually and physicallyengaged in what's going on, uh,
spiritually engaged if that's,where you're being lit, in that
(09:00):
way or by that person orwhatever.
On the other side, progress orachievement or outcome, or let's
just go to impact.
is certainly threatened by thisidea of going along for the
experience and seeing what ithas to offer.
Not that you can't achieve inthat first path that I
(09:20):
described, but certainly if youdefined a singular life purpose
and just really committed to it.
a great deal more of your timeand energy to this thing or in
this direction or toward thisoutcome or this impact, you'd
certainly, make more progress ormake more impact.
But, and I don't know if it's myfear of failure.
Um, but I just don't feelcompelled to limit my experience
(09:46):
in this one go round, in pursuitof, of one direction and making
impact only in that zone.
Leslie (09:54):
If you take that element out of the concept of life's
purpose and we make it plural.
We have purposes in our lifeand, they can come and go as we
move through life.
Does that change any of yourthinking?
Ethan (10:13):
Um, not really.
I mean, I, I, at that point thenit doesn't, um, it doesn't do
the same job.
I don't think in that case, Ifeel like we're kind of like
retrofitting Or, or currentfitting something as opposed to,
you know, when I think about thepurpose, it's like, where are we
going?
(10:33):
And, and why are we here?
And so it's what's my direction,and motivation and intended
outcome and purpose.
You know, I think the exerciseitself is to orient oneself in a
direction.
I think otherwise it becomeskind of project work.
Um, but I, or, or maybe you'redescribing my approach, which
really is.
thing for me right now.
And I, I wouldn't, I personallywouldn't level that up to, you
(10:56):
know, my life's purpose, um, orsay that my, although I have
used this language now thatyou've gotten me like deep into
this is like, I've used thatlanguage before, like in a
previous role, um, I was, I wasat a company for almost a dozen
years, but.
In that I had many seasons andone of the questions I would ask
myself, Is my work done here?
Have I done what I'm supposed todo here?
(11:17):
And I guess another way to askthat question is, is my purpose
in this context served, uh, isthis, is this chapter worth,
putting a period on closing andturning the page?
Um, so I guess I have thought inthat way too.
Leslie (11:31):
Yeah.
Which that feels very reflectiveas opposed to, proactive.
I don't know what the oppositeis.
Ethan (11:40):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Leslie (11:41):
Yeah.
So the, the question that I'veseen that comes up in this view
of life's purpose flowsthroughout our life is what is
life asking of me now?
To me, that question takes itout of the project base and more
of a, where do I need to bespending my time, my energy, my
(12:03):
care, my concern with what'shappening in my life today, Does
that change anything for you?
Ethan (12:11):
Uh, language I've used for that is like, what's the
next right step or what's thenext right thing?
Because it's all we can reallydo, at some level.
So yes, but it also, again,takes away some of the fun and.
Challenge of figuring out thegreater purpose, which again, I,
I mean, obviously I'm willingand able to, and I like dwelling
in, the theoretical or thephilosophical, I like wondering
(12:35):
about these things.
That's why I don't have acommitment to any of these
things.
And I wouldn't say I'm asubscriber to anyone's school of
thought or anyone practiceeither.
So it definitely changes theconversation around it and can
make it more useful for adifferent type of person.
and I would entertain that.
Leslie (12:50):
Yeah.
The other thing that, I'm struckby is I'm envisioning you
Ethan's Out there running outthere, hiking out there, being
in the environment.
And when I envision that Ienvision someone going inside,
thinking inside, letting theirmind wander, letting their mind
(13:12):
be quiet.
And I've found that that, actionis what I'm starting to call a
prerequisite for purpose.
To find your purpose whetherit's in the moment or for your
whole entire life thisunderstanding of self this self
awareness is necessary and soi'm I find myself curious
(13:34):
someone that spends a lot Wellone I might be wrong on how your
mind is spent when you're outthere running and walking But if
it is spent more quieting andlistening and allowing your mind
to wander and this notconnection to a purpose.
In life anyway, I don't know ifthat makes any sense.
(13:56):
And if it does, if you have areaction to that,
Ethan (14:00):
Uh, I think there's a very strong historical basis for
repetitive, physical motion andthought.
You find that to be a thing andyou find it across cultures as
well.
So there's absolutely somethingto, um, repetitive physical
motion and thought that occurs.
Uh, but with, for, for myself inthe morning, I'm always running,
silently.
(14:20):
It's very often allowing my mindto wander.
I've tried setting my mind ontoa topic to see if I could work
something out, but I, I, again,that feels a little bit too
forced to me.
Uh, so I do let it wander.
Uh, occasionally I'll, use amantra along with it.
If I go out for, you know, twoand a half, three hours for a
morning hike on a Saturday orSunday morning at a, I always
(14:40):
prefer to do it by myself, andusually half the time I'll
listen to, uh, podcasts or musicand then half the time.
Um, I'll just, you know, unplug.
Put it all down and, uh, andagain, and allow my mind to, do
its thing.
One of the ways that I thinkabout this is, eating, right?
We all know that we should stopeating at a certain point.
(15:01):
Even if we're eating really goodthings, you can eat too much and
your body can't digest it.
You need to stop, and allow itto digest.
And I think the same thing istrue of our minds.
I think in the way that we livetoday, we're constantly
consuming ideas and information,even if it's something that we
generally would regard as morehealthy, like reading a book, or
whether it's something that wewould regard as more junk food,
(15:23):
like just constantly flippingshorts or reels or whatever the
case may be.
All of those things, I think youwould not be doing yourself,
well or right, to not take thistime to allow your mind to do
whatever it needs to do with theideas and information that are
there, but I do know from my ownexperience, that that time and
(15:45):
space.
Even if it's just allowing yourmind to wander or allowing you
to sit in silence and in somesense of solitude, uh, not
loneliness, but solitude, uh,that something is really healthy
about that.
Leslie (15:58):
Yeah.
But the question that I'mwondering is.
If the act of doing that helpsyou discover your purpose, it
brings it clarity.
And what I'm seeing for you isthat's not a part of the outcome
of your solidarity, allowing themind to wander, it's not
(16:19):
bringing clarity in yourpurpose.
Ethan (16:22):
Yeah, no, not necessarily.
It does bring clarity in avariety of things.
I mean, I've done creative workmy entire career, essentially
making things that didn't existbefore.
It's like for about a decadenow, I've literally manufactured
my own work.
What am I going to do thisquarter?
What am I going to, it's alignedwith the greater organization,
but essentially I'm responsiblefor not just manufacturing
(16:43):
things out of thin air, but alsomanufacturing what it is that
I'm going to manufacture.
Right.
And so that, like thatcreativity requires that space.
And I found that like some ofthe best insights, I guess, like
the, the, to help me with thenext right step or the next
right thing, or to solve thatproblem, or to answer that
(17:03):
question, um, or to close thatgap.
It occurs to me not at a timethat I decide it needs, you
know, sometimes you have to makea decision.
Like I got to make a decision bythree o'clock today.
So you just have to make thedecision.
But in other cases, you, youhave the privilege of allowing
things to occur to you.
And I, that, that's what thatprocess is about for me.
I will say, some of the joy andgratitude that I experienced
(17:27):
about my, existence.
Is found in that process.
So meaning like this idea ofthat, that's the other way to, I
think about it too, is like,not, is this thing that I'm
doing right now or for the nextfour years, does it have meaning
or does it provide me withmeaning?
Um, fun and interesting andchallenging.
(17:49):
Is it those things?
Um, I find like, I reflect onwhat is fun about it or what is
interesting about it, or I'mgrateful for.
The fact that I've beenintellectually engaged by this
challenge or topic over the pastseveral months and while you're
in it, you're justintellectually engaged and
challenged.
It's in these times where youcan reflect back and be and
(18:10):
again, this is backward lookingthat forward looking as you
already observed.
Um, but that's also part of howI make sure that I guess, um,
I'm finding meaning in what I'mdoing and I appreciate the
opportunity to do what I'mdoing.
And, and, another word that Idon't think I've introduced here
that I reflect on a lot isenough.
Um, when I think about purposeand ambition and direction and
(18:33):
impact and outcome, I oftenwonder about like, what is
enough?
Have I done enough?
Is this enough?
Um, a lot of people reflect onit enough, but like, I think
enough is a really interestingquestion here.
And when I think about religion,uh, in general, I think it's a
human's collective effort tofigure out, why are we here?
(18:57):
How are we supposed to live andwhat happens when we're gone?
I would just observe thatforever we've been trying to
understand these things.
And so when I say collective,um, I don't just mean, am I
operating in service of otherpeople, but I mean, like, do all
of us being here, whether we'reall aligned in this one school
(19:18):
of thought and practice.
Religion or otherwise, or all ofus together.
Is there a reason for this to behappening?
That's where I'm at withpurpose.
And that's why I struggle withsome of the more base commercial
personally ambitious, egodriven.
Approaches to, to purpose.
One of the reasons I went downthat line and then I'll wrap it
up and give it back to you is,um, the one thing that's common
(19:41):
across all philosophies in majorworld religions who have gone
down this road of trying toanswer these questions, which at
some level is a purpose questionor set of purpose questions, um,
Is some version of the goldenrule.
Dozens of them have arrived atsome version of the golden rule.
And so when I think aboutenough, I think, is it enough to
be the kind of person we wantother people to be?
(20:07):
And this, this again, kind ofgets a little bit at the
collective.
And is that enough of a purpose?
Is it enough of a purpose, apurpose to be this and to model
this With and for other peopleso that other people can
experience and enjoy it, butalso so that other people can
learn it.
And so that this becomesnormative and cultural and that
it becomes passed down becausewe're modeling this behavior,
not just for ourselves and ourpeers and our friends, but also
(20:30):
for our children are in ourchildren's children and our
friends, children, and all ofthis.
And so, is that enough?
I frankly think we might be in abetter place if there's more
time and energy and attentionfocused on that.
And, but the question is, isthat enough?
I would say in.
You know, 2024, 2025 UnitedStates of America.
I don't think that would besatisfactory for a great number
(20:50):
of people in terms of, what theyseek to achieve modeling right
behavior.
Like, but I think that's enough.
Leslie (20:58):
Yeah.
Well, you're speaking to, one ofthe overarching conclusions that
I'm coming to for now.
I mentioned earlier, these threedynamics of, the definition of
purpose and I am coming tobelieve that life's purpose
isn't about achievement, it'snot about goal attainment, it
(21:22):
really is about being.
It's about living in a way whereour actions.
And our behaviors are true toourselves, to our core, our, our
souls.
And, and that requires us to dothe work inside to understand
(21:43):
who is Leslie at her core?
What does she believe in?
What are her values and what arethe actions that she's going to
take to, to live those, in theworld?
So it's more of a state ofbeing.
Then it is an accomplishment,it's a state of being that's
true to oneself.
(22:05):
any reaction to that?
Ethan (22:06):
Uh, integrity and wholeness are definitely part
of, satisfaction.
I think, um, like realsatisfaction, real,
appreciation, real.
value, real achievement,frankly, is this integrity and
wholeness?
And it's not just honesty, whichI think is the most important
thing we can be with ourselvesand with other people, um, is
(22:27):
honest.
Uh, but, but that speaks tothat, like that there's a
consistency and integrity andwholeness in our way of being.
Uh, and I think that is enough.
Leslie (22:39):
Yeah, I do too personally because I, it, it
requires though that you do thework on yourself, you know, and
I do believe.
If we all do that work, if wetake the time to quiet our mind,
let our mind wander, let us bereflective, however we do it.
Um, and that our actions line upwith, with our understanding of
(23:03):
ourselves, that, that we will dogood in the world, we will be
driven by.
A collective mindset, um,instead of an individual
mindset.
But yeah, you're getting me intomy beliefs here, Ethan.
Ethan (23:18):
Well, I mean, that's why I like this conversation so
much.
I mean, I don't know that youcan have it without that.
Otherwise it's, um, let's talkabout career planning, right?
Not that that's not interestingand useful.
And that's a, that's part of thereality that we need to live in.
Um, and I've struggled with thata lot, frankly, too.
I mean, the things that I'mpersonally passionate about, um.
(23:38):
I think two things in particularto two large areas.
One, I think we've becomedisconnected with the natural
environment.
I don't think we have sufficientrespect for it.
I think we we've come to treatit as something separate from
ourselves.
I think ecology and economy areare false dichotomy.
(23:59):
And, and I think the more we uselanguage and behavior to
separate ourselves and to remaindisconnected from the world that
we are truly a part of.
Um, and I think we've absolutelylost touch with that.
Uh, and I think restoring thatconnection is the restoring of
humanity at some level.
And I actually do think it'spart of the integrity and
(24:20):
wholeness conversation as well.
It's not just inward, but wherethat's just, who am I and what
am I about?
What matters to me?
And what does it mean for me tolive rightly?
Um, what does it mean to be avirtuous person, but also what
does it mean in relation toeverything else around me and
everyone else around me?
Um, so that's one, the other oneis, we've obviously become
disconnected from one another.
(24:41):
I think that also results in alot of, um, ill outcomes, a
variety of them in a lot ofdifferent ways.
Uh, but the, but thedisconnection from our, from our
fellow humans, uh, is also afundamental problem.
It's very, very interesting tome.
Um, and I think going inward canhelp, in a lot of different
ways.
I think we'll arrive at some ofthese truths again, like when we
(25:03):
think about, the golden rule, asit's expressed, um, it's
reflected in that, essentially,we're better together, you
know,.
So those are two big problems,but like, I'm not.
I can see aspects of that in my,like, professional work.
Uh, but it's not like I'mstaying up to the middle of the
night and dedicating my weekendsto, figuring out my part in
(25:26):
solving these things at somepoint, I've also been
overwhelmed by them and justsaid, I just don't know what's
to be done here.
Leslie (25:32):
Right, what I also feel like you say is.
I'm going to do my part.
I'm going to live my life in away that is true to the belief
that we're all better together,that honors our environment,,
it's role modeling really.
Ethan (25:48):
Yeah.
But then now here we are back atthis conversation of impact.
You know, if I really wanted tomake progress here, Um, then I
need to find a way to, pay themortgage, keep the fridge full,
take a vacation once in a while,both myself and my family and
also pursue this thing.
(26:09):
That's where I, that's where Igive myself permission not to go
all in on these.
And that's how I arrive at like,is this enough?
And I, I moved back and forthbetween those ideas.
Leslie (26:20):
Yeah.
Well, that concept of impact,um, the, the way that I have
heard it talked about on PurposeProject is, passion.
This idea that we're sopassionate.
About this thing that we'rewilling to, stay up, to do the
(26:41):
things.
and it's when the purpose in mylife.
And this, my passions cometogether is how I'm going to
achieve this purpose.
So any reaction to this conceptof passion behind it.
Ethan (26:55):
Yes, absolutely.
I mean, it's, it's a hundredpercent required.
Uh, if you are to, to go downthat road, I mean, for me, when
I think about it, Um, when I'lljust speak to something,
something that got you and Iconnected in the first place is,
um, you know, I started the showChief Evangelist for fun and
interest.
Like I was interested in it.
The door was open.
(27:16):
It seems fun and interesting andchallenging.
And I did that show mornings,nights, and weekends.
Leslie (27:22):
Uh huh.
Ethan (27:22):
And at a certain point, I changed jobs.
I realized I needed to immersemyself in this new company, and
it fell a little bit behind andthen a couple of things
happened.
My passion was a bit diminished.
Um, But, but, you know, I movedon from it and I spend.
You know, if I'm doing work onmornings, nights and weekends,
(27:44):
which happens regularly for me,it's all been in my current role
that I'm, being paid for and thething that provides the
resources for me to do all theother things in my life.
The reality of my day to dayright now is that if I have four
extra hours, I know wherethey're going to go.
Yeah.
And it's not to that, it's tothis, this other thing that I
(28:07):
do.
Does that mean I'm morepassionate about what I'm doing
now?
I certainly am.
Um, am I more passionate?
I don't know.
Is it more important long term?
I don't know.
Does the world need tounderstand the chief evangelist
role?
I don't know.
Leslie (28:19):
I don't know.
Well, but how about thisquestion?
Did your passion for chiefevangelist for chief evangelism
shift?
Did that change?
Ethan (28:32):
Uh, it did.
It got watered down a littlebit, for a couple of different
ways and a couple of differentreasons.
And so, so now what I'm gettinginto is this kind of outside
motivation, um.
You know, is the work beingvalidated or appreciated by
enough people in the right wayfor me to stay interested in it?
And then it's like, well, youknow, so much wrapped up in it.
It's really interesting.
(28:52):
Um, but I would say, yeah,obviously my level of interest
in energy and passion wasreoriented with a change of
employers.
I'm essentially studying abusiness model that remains
emergent.
In one of the most importantindustries relative to the
United States GDP.
(29:12):
It's a big topic and it's superinteresting.
And so I'm like, if I'm going todedicate a Saturday morning to
doing air air quote work, it'sgoing to be in that area.
So part of that is like, butpart of that is like the
integrity issue that we talkedabout before wholeness.
Like I see myself, I presentmyself.
I believe that I model that I ama conscientious, hardworking
(29:35):
person that has your interestsin mind as my employer, just as
I have my own interests in mind.
But the benefit that I get outof it among many is that it's
fun and interesting andchallenging, and that brings me
to life,
Leslie (29:46):
Yeah.
So what I heard in that Ethanconnected to the topic of
purpose is sometimes people canget mixed up and My passion is
my purpose.
And I'm thinking no, they're twoseparate things.
Um,
Ethan (30:02):
yeah, but, but, but you know, it is, it's Boolean as
well.
So like where they overlap,you're going to make more
progress and it's going to be,you know, you're going to be
drawn in deeper and faster andall of these other things.
Yeah.
Leslie (30:13):
Yeah.
So, I'm curious.
Purpose Project is the study oflife's purpose.
It's a research project.
That's what it is.
And season one was reallyfocused on people that have
clarity in their life's purpose.
Purpose and they're pursuing it.
And I know that I also need torepresent people like you that
(30:40):
aren't pursuing a life's purposeand it's for these beliefs.
And I'm curious from yourperspective, I see a whole
season dedicated to the otherside when purpose isn't clear,
you know, when you don't believein it.
What are some of the things fromyour perspective that.
That I should be looking atthat.
I should be asking, are therethings that I should have asked
(31:02):
you here that would have gottena little deeper?
Any advice for me?
Ethan (31:07):
Um, I mean, no, nothing that comes to mind and you know,
I wouldn't necessarily putmyself in a camp, but like I'm a
non subscriber in general.
Like I'm a, I'm an open andcurious person and I want to
like, Engage in what's in frontof me and I'll debate both sides
of any issue just to explore,like if there are two sides of
(31:30):
these things.
So.
Um, you know, I think you'regoing to find my assumption is
that you're going to find a lotmore.
I don't knows, or, um, I've gonedown that road and it hasn't
really produced anything or,like it's not around that your
purpose isn't around the cornerwaiting to be found.
It's waiting to be discovered,you know?
Uh, and that's an activeprocess.
(31:50):
And so I think some peopleeither, um, are digging and
digging and digging and they'relike, it's down here somewhere.
Um, or they don't know, or, Idon't think anyone would say
that purpose doesn't matter orthat we don't have any purpose.
Um, I think the people who have,uh, arrived at a conclusion that
there is no purpose to theirlives generally aren't thriving.
(32:12):
Um, uh, in general.
Um, so I think it's more of anexplanation or an exploration
of, um, if your purpose isn'tclear, why not?
Okay.
Leslie (32:24):
Well, it's interesting that you say that because, if
anyone's going to have aconversation with me, chances
are, I'm going to ask them ifthey have a purpose, and one of
the common responses that I'venoticed is.
It is, I think so, or I'm notsure.
It's this hesitancy as opposedto
Ethan (32:45):
so big it's because like, I don't know if this is the
reason I'm here on this earth atthis time.
Right?
Leslie (32:52):
Yes.
And I think what one of thethings that where I'm at is
changing that paradigm, oflife's purpose is really a, of a
way of being, we already talkedabout this, it's about how you
live, um, as opposed to likewhat you accomplish.
But I appreciate that, input ofseeking to understand.
(33:14):
Where the beliefs about purposereally digging into, what's
holding you back, what's keepingyou back, what are your beliefs.
Ethan (33:23):
I think the questions are, you know, why are we here
and how are we supposed to live?
Um, I do think it is enough justto be the, be, it is cliche as
heck to say, but be the changeor be the, Um, the good that you
want to see in the world doesn'teven need to be changed, but you
know, be the change or be thegood.
(33:44):
and if you happen to bepassionate enough and clear
enough, that you can devoteyourself and ideally you would
align it with making a livingto, making real progress and
making real impact in a specificway.
But I do think it's enough.
To be present, to be present ingood and healthy and positive
and constructive ways, thatmodel right behavior for anyone
(34:06):
who's paying attention and thatallow you to really enjoy and
appreciate the experience, uh,that we uniquely have here, uh,
as humans today on this earth.
Leslie (34:16):
Yeah.
Anything left unsaid on thetopic of purpose from your
perspective,
Ethan (34:23):
I could go another hour, but like, it's mostly exploring
because again, I'm not superclear in these thoughts.
And I think that's also,reflective of your motivation
and what your accomplishment canbe here is that, I think the
popular conversation aroundpurpose is generally very self
serving and even, material.
I think you're obviously comingat it from a different
(34:43):
perspective.
And even with someone like me,who is, is a relatively
reflective person.
You know, I'm curious aboutthese things and it's important.
But, um, I'm interested in thesetopics and I don't have answers.
I think there are a lot ofpeople out there like that.
Leslie (34:58):
Yeah, you
Ethan (34:59):
already, you already mentioned in the way that people
respond to the questions likemaybe like things that matter to
me or, you know, things, youknow, these thoughts that are
recurring for me, but I don'tknow what to do with them or
these things that like, like me,but like, what do I do about
that?
that, you know, or can I alignthat with my, you know, career
(35:19):
and that's, that becomesdifficult for a lot of people
too.
So you wind up settling backinto the reality of their
situation, which is, you know,the patterns of daily life and
getting kids from here to thereand showing up for work and
doing enough and making the zoomcall on time and blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Next thing you know, you know, aweek's gone, a month's gone, a
year's gone.
And you're left reflectingagain.
(35:39):
What am I doing all this for?
Right.
Right.
And it's enough that you'redoing it.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Leslie (35:47):
Yeah.
Well, I appreciate you being onthe show.
I appreciate you, modeling good,in our world and, um, thank you
Ethan for being here.
Ethan (36:00):
Yeah.
Thank you.
I appreciate what you're doing.
And again, it was fun and aprivilege to be a part of.
Leslie (36:05):
I've listened to this conversation with Ethan over and
over, and there are two thingsthat really stand out for me.
The first is that while some ofus might not be living our lives
in pursuit of a purpose, itdoesn't mean that we aren't
living our lives with meaning.
The second is this question thatEthan brought into the show of,
(36:29):
is it enough?
That question really resonateswith me.
And it's a question I'm going tocontinue to ask myself as I
pursue my life's purpose, Ethan,thank you for being on the show
and thanks to all of you fortuning in.
(36:52):
Purpose Project is brought toyou for education and for
entertainment purposes.
This podcast is not intended toreplace the advice that you
would receive from a licensedtherapist or doctor or any other
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