May 13, 2025 • 36 mins
In episode 10 of Purpose Project, Stars of Responsibility, host Leslie Pagel interviews Jim Obermaier, a seasoned leader with over 30 years of experience in various sectors of the US government. Currently serving as the Chief Operating Officer at the Indiana Department of Child Services, Jim shares insights into whether purpose in the government workplace mirrors that outside it. The discussion delves into Jim's personal life, professional journey, and the importance of purpose in both individual and collective contexts within the workplace. Jim emphasizes the responsibility leaders have in fostering purpose among their teams and how aligning individual and organizational purposes can drive meaningful impact. This episode provides valuable lessons in leadership, purpose alignment, and the unique dynamics of working within the government sector.
00:00 Introduction to Episode 10
00:56 Meet Jim Obermaier
05:14 Exploring Life's Purpose and Purpose in the Workplace
10:19 Leadership and Purpose
13:51 Aligning Individual and Collective Purpose
18:44 Uncovering Opportunities Through Dialogue
19:33 Purpose in Government Work
23:11 Comparing Government and Private Sector Work
27:13 Leadership and Purpose
31:06 Advice for People Leaders
33:53 Final Thoughts on Purpose
Purpose Project is a research study on the topic of life's purpose. You can follow along in the making of Purpose Project:
Instagram: @purpose.project
LinkedIn: @purposeproject-media
TikTok: @purpose.project
Captions are auto-generated.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
Welcome to episode 10 of PurposeProject Stars of Responsibility.
I am your host, Leslie Pagel,and in this episode I sit down
with Jim Obermaier.
Jim is a seasoned leader withover 30 years of experience
serving numerous sectors withinthe US government.
(00:24):
Jim currently serves as a Chiefoperating officer within, uh,
the Indiana Department of ChildServices.
With so many years of experienceworking in and around different
government agencies, I wanted tosit down with Jim to explore
whether purpose in thegovernment workplace mirrors
(00:46):
that of purpose outside of thegovernment workplace.
And that's exactly what we do inthis episode.
Let's take a listen.
Leslie (00:56):
Jim, thank you so much for being on Purpose Project.
I am really looking forward totalking about how purpose shows
up in the workplace.
Jim (01:04):
All right.
Thanks for having me, Leslie.
Leslie (01:06):
Let's start with getting to know you.
Tell us a little bit about whoyou are personally and
professionally.
Jim (01:13):
Oh, oh, sure.
Personally live here inIndianapolis.
Been been in Hoosier now forabout 22, 23 years, which is
kind of crazy.
My wife's from here, so I'm atransplanted Hoosier by
marriage.
Um.
Have, um, a background in a lotof different things, um, both
professionally and personally.
(01:34):
Very, very interested and, andvery excited about history.
Very excited about, you know,kinda learning different parts
of the country and understandinghow people show up given where
they are, given where they mightbe from.
Got a couple of kids.
Um, we, we like to think thatour kids are somewhat
interesting.
Uh, one of'em lives in Hawaii, Ithink she's been on this podcast
(01:55):
before.
Um, and she works in theenvironmental and conservation
space in Hawaii and also doesoutrigger canoeing competitively
in Hawaii.
She's been there about four orfive years now.
I.
And then our son does softwaresales by day, but he has a
pretty successful band by night.
And they're, they travel aroundthe country and play indie pop.
(02:16):
And they're actually, I wastalking to him on the way over
here.
They're actually driving fromIndianapolis to Milwaukee.
Leslie (02:21):
Wow.
Insane.
Uh, for
Jim (02:22):
gigs tonight.
Insane.
And they's gonna end up inColorado in a few days.
Leslie (02:25):
Very cool.
Yep.
Jim (02:26):
Yeah, it's kind of cool.
So, um, I love to love to do alot of reading, like to do some
hiking, like to just kind of goout and travel a lot.
And, um, I'm a big urban hiker.
I love to explore cities.
Yeah.
And, um, just kind of, you know,enjoy those kinds of things.
Mm-hmm.
Leslie (02:43):
How about professionally?
Jim (02:45):
Professionally?
Um, so I currently work at thestate of Indiana.
I'm the Chief Operating Officerof the Department of Child
Services, which is the agencythat, that, that works in child
welfare, adoption, foster care,child support, and various other
things in that, in thatuniverse.
Um, I've been around publicsector world for the bulk of my
(03:05):
career for about 35 years now,uh, which is really hard to
believe.
It's been that long.
And I've worked, I've been aconsultant most of the time, um,
been on both the business sideand the technology side.
So I'm one of those weird peoplewho can kind of be conversant
and, and, um, able to operate inboth spaces and kinda see the
(03:26):
intersections.
I.
Between those two, um, betweenthose two areas, worked across
state government.
I've been in, I've been in nowof course, child services.
I've worked in, um, revenue, solike tax collection.
Um, that's always a fun one thatpeople are always like, Ooh,
you're a tax collector.
Someone has to do it.
Um, worked in, uh, corrections.
(03:46):
I've worked in bureau motorvehicles.
Oh, I've worked intransportation and worked in
aging.
Worked in health and humanservices.
And of course worked in, workedin general technology, so very
deep background, um, and havedone, had a couple of consulting
since in energy andpharmaceuticals as well.
So pretty, pretty variedbackground, but the through line
(04:09):
has always been, uh, in thepublic service space.
Leslie (04:11):
Okay.
Okay.
So I heard someone who's verycurious, like very much like to
explore, discover.
Jim (04:19):
Yep.
Leslie (04:20):
Um, strong family connections.
Uh, professional work mostly in,in public sector,
Jim (04:27):
correct.
Leslie (04:28):
Both kind of working within the government, but also
outside as a consultant workingfor Okay.
Jim (04:34):
Yeah.
I had my own company for about11 years.
It was, was an independentconsultant, um, and integrated
and partnered up with variousfolks, so depending on the needs
of the project and the client,so, yeah.
Nice.
Yeah, so I've got a little bitof an entrepreneurial streak in
me and.
I tend to, when I'm on theinside, when I'm actually
working for an organization, Itend to be a little bit of an,
an intrapreneur, uh, trying tofigure out ways to, you know,
(04:57):
Hey, let's not do things the waywe've always done'em.
Let's actually try to thinkabout things differently.
Leslie (05:02):
Yeah.
Well, I would love to probeinto.
How, and if purpose kind ofinfluences that.
Sure.
But before we go there, aquestion I ask everyone.
Jim (05:14):
Okay.
Leslie (05:14):
Is, do you have a life's purpose, personally,
Jim (05:17):
a life's purpose?
That's a great question.
Was thinking about that on theway over and, and Yes, I do.
Um, life's purpose is as alwaysgoes back to family.
Um, and being there for them andbeing, being the best version of
me that I can be.
For them and, and recognizingthat over time as families
change, as we, as individualschange, the core purpose stays
(05:41):
the same.
Some of the edges of it and someof the manifestations of it,
depending on the season change.
So, you know, kids when they'rein their twenties are a little
bit different than Yeah.
Kids when they're in their, youknow, elementary school years or
their high school years.
My wife and I are going into 37years of marriage this year.
And, you know, marriages thatare 37 years old are different
(06:02):
than marriages when they're fiveyears old.
Great.
All seasons Uhhuh, but they havedifferent needs.
Um, so the purpose shows up alittle bit different every,
every season.
Leslie (06:11):
Yeah.
But it's, but it's, it's alwayscentered in family.
Absolutely.
And Absolutely.
And the way it shows up evolvesYep.
As the family unit evolves.
Exactly.
Jim (06:19):
Exactly.
And family units, um, in myexperience, they, they evolve a
little bit too.
And, and by that I mean not justthe blood units.
But the, the friends that comeand go as well, uh, during the
different times of your life andthe different, you know,
opportunities that, that theuniverse presents.
Leslie (06:36):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, thanks for sharing yourpurpose with us.
Sure, sure.
Let's dive into purpose in theworkplace.
Let's start pretty broad andthen we will, um, we'll narrow
in from there.
Sounds good.
From your experience and yourperspective, how does purpose
show up in the workplace?
Jim (06:55):
Um, I.
It, it, it varies a lot.
I mean, we, we all know from,we've worked for some folks that
their purposes, they, they, forwhatever their world is, they
show up because it's a job thatthey have and they need to come
in, do the job, and it's.
It's a transactional experiencefrom I show up and give you
time, you give me money, we, wepart at the end of the day and
(07:17):
then we do it all over again.
That's one purpose and that's avery, very great purpose.
Yeah.
Um, for me, purpose in theworkplace, um, especially given
what I'm currently doing at thestate with the Department of
Child Services, is really abouttwo things.
One is finding ways to care for.
(07:37):
The folks that are on the teamsthat I work with, teams, not
only the teams that report tome, but the teams that, that I
work with around, um, our agencyaround the state and even
outside of the state because wehave a lot of partners outside
of the state and, and figuringout how do I, how do I.
How do I help make their liveseasier?
(07:59):
How do I make it easier for themto do their jobs so that they
can serve the population that weserve, which is the most
vulnerable Hoosier children andtheir families?
Um, that's one major, majorpurpose for me.
Another major purpose is, um,really figuring out a way to
organize chaos, make systemswork better.
(08:22):
I've always been.
I, I didn't realize it when Iwas younger, but I've always
been a pretty big systemsthinker.
Okay.
And looking for ways to, to makethe mousetrap work better and,
and how does all that fittogether?
And how can, how can we smooththat out so that people can have
a maximum experience so thatthey can show up and do their
(08:44):
jobs in the most maximum way fortheir customers.
Yeah.
Whatever those customers are.
Yeah.
And that has always beensomething that I've been kind of
just.
Relentlessly drawn to, I'm, I'm,I'm, you know, I'm, I'm the guy
that organizes the silverwaredrawer.
I'm the guy that makes sure thatthe plates are all in the right
spot.
I'm the guy that will walk byand straighten the place mats on
(09:06):
the table and, and those littlethings.
I also try to do them withorganizations that I'm involved
with.
Um, not just unilaterally, butwith the folks that are, that
are around the organization and,and to facilitate conversations
and facilitate.
Ideas and then to facilitateexecution.
Right.
Of, you know, making the placemat straight.
Leslie (09:25):
Yeah.
So I heard, purpose in theworkplace is really about the,
the, the role of the individualin their job.
Yeah.
And, and it could be, my purposeis to come and perform a job and
get a paycheck and it'stransactional.
Yeah.
But in your case, I was hearingmore.
(09:45):
Alignment with your strengths,your interests, your being who
you are.
Right, right.
And, and fulfilling those.
Right.
In a workplace where you alsobenefit with a paycheck.
Jim (09:57):
Well, absolutely.
That, that is a thing.
Um, one of the things that Ifound as I've, as I've moved,
you know, further in my careerand, you know, kind of being
closer to the, I, I think I dida calculation that if I, if my
career were a golf course, Ithink right now I'm on.
Whole 15 or so, so kind ofcloser to the, closer to the end
of the course and the, uh, thanthe beginning of the course.
(10:19):
But as I've moved further along,I've also really gotten excited
about helping people that I workwith figure out how, what
excites them, what's theirpurpose in the workplace.
And, and I think as you, as youget further in your career, as
you.
You know, maybe if you are, are,are privileged enough, like I've
(10:40):
been to move into leadershiproles.
It's a responsibility to helpfolks figure out what their
purpose is.
If someone is playing rightfield, but they're a better
shortstop, help them get to playshortstop.
If someone's playing shortstopat their better first base
person, help them get to firstbase.
(11:00):
Yeah.
That is absolutely aresponsibility.
Yeah, and if you can find peopleand help people get to those
realizations and then to helpactually make that happen for
'em, then guess what?
What the organization does, howthe organization does the
outcomes, the organ, theorganization achieves.
(11:22):
All raise.
Right?
They all get better.
And guess what?
People feel a little bit morecomfortable.
Leslie (11:28):
Right?
Jim (11:28):
And that means they're probably gonna feel a little bit
happier in their jobs.
Yeah, which is important.
Leslie (11:33):
So I wanna put an exclamation point on this.
'cause what I heard is purposeis leadership.
It is a leadershipresponsibility.
Hundred percent.
Whether you are the leader or anindividual contributor,
Jim (11:50):
100%.
Leslie (11:51):
It's still an opportunity and it is how you
get the most out of your team.
Jim (11:57):
Yep, exactly.
And, and it is theresponsibility of someone if
they're an, if you're, again,privileged enough to be in the
leadership role, it is yourresponsibility to go to your
team member.
95%, 95% of the journey is onthe leader to go to the team
member.
Right?
Not 95% of the journey is on theteam member to come to the
(12:18):
leader.
Mm-hmm.
That is absolutely anathema tothe way that I believe it
operates, and I certainlywouldn't operate that way.
So can you say
Leslie (12:25):
a little bit more about this?
So the leader going to the teammember in terms of helping to
understand their purpose or tosay a little bit more, getting
to
Jim (12:33):
know'em, getting to know'em as people?
I really, really like to get toknow folks.
You know, Hey, where are youfrom?
Right?
What's your, what's your worldlook like?
What do you like to do outsideof work?
You know, get to know folks.
What, what excites you?
What's your hobby?
If you weren't here, what wouldyou be doing?
Um, if you weren't doing thisjob, what other job?
What did you think you might bedoing?
(12:53):
What interests you?
And in getting to know folks, ithelps put together the fabric
of, you know, and organizationsare never.
Like one single piece of fabric.
It's never a bla a big blanketmade out of a single piece of
fabric.
It's a quilt made out of theindividual squares that are the
different people in theorganization.
Love.
Right.
I love
Leslie (13:12):
that visual.
Yes.
Jim (13:13):
So understand the makeup of the squares and how they fit
together to make up the quiltand you get a better thing that
will keep you warm.
Right.
So it's really incumbent on theleader to go understand those
individuals as people.
Then help understand, oh, thisis the type of team that, that
(13:34):
we're working with.
This is what excites thembecause that influences what the
direction one might choose to goin and one, and what might
choose collectively to ideateon, and then to actually put
plans together to go make ithappen.
Leslie (13:49):
Yeah.
So I am hearing a lot aboutindividual purpose.
We're talking about individualpurpose and.
And how your strengths, you lookat living those out and then as
a leader looking to understandthat there's also purpose of the
business mm-hmm.
Or purpose of the team.
(14:10):
I think of that as thecollective purpose, sure,
Jim (14:13):
sure.
Leslie (14:14):
What importance does that have over this kind of
getting to know the individualand their purpose out of the two
blend together?
Jim (14:23):
Sure, sure.
So sports metaphor, alert, um,if the business is basketball,
Leslie (14:32):
uhhuh,
Jim (14:33):
getting to know folks and understanding.
What their interest is.
And if you find out that you'vegot a team of folks that are
more interested in baseball,then that influences how the,
how that team can affect thepurpose of the business.
Probably not gonna be the bestbasketball team that you're
gonna have.
(14:53):
I'm, I'm a whopping five footsix on a low gravity day.
I am not the guy that's, you'regonna hire to go, hi, dunk a
basketball.
Mm-hmm.
Ain't gonna happen.
Just not gonna.
And if you do, well the goodluck.
That's a bad choice on yourpart.
So you've gotta understand whoyour team is and what they're
interested in, and, and thenbounce that up against what game
you're playing, right?
What, what the purpose of theorganization is, and, and try to
(15:16):
find the best alignment as youpossibly can.
And sometimes it's going, thisis what we think the purpose of
the organization is.
Where's the wiggle room to bringit closer to the team?
Sometimes it's, Hey, team, letme help you understand.
Let's, let's collectivelyunderstand the purpose of the
organization and how do we seeourselves as that.
(15:38):
As that team, as that quilt showup to meet that purpose.
Right?
Um, and then if we, if we don'thave a great overlap with it,
or, or as much overlap as weneed, what else do we need?
Leslie (15:49):
Uhhuh,
Jim (15:50):
how do we, how do we close that?
How do we close that gap?
How do we, how do we cover thatwith the blanket or the quilt a
little bit better?
Right?
Leslie (15:56):
So it's a, I mean, I'm envisioning two circles that
start to intersect.
It's a Venn diagram businesspurpose.
Yes.
Hundred
Jim (16:04):
percent.
Leslie (16:05):
And the more that they can overlap, the better.
Sure.
And sometimes it's a pulling ofone side or a pushing of the
other.
Exactly.
Jim (16:14):
Exactly.
And, and, and when you get ateam that.
Feels the purpose of, and thenyou get that intersection with
their individual purposealigning with the collective
purpose.
Those circles can overlap more.
Mm-hmm.
And they can get a little bitmore pliable, a little bit more
(16:35):
flexible for the places thatmaybe they don't naturally
intersect.
Mm-hmm.
They actually can kind of workit out a little bit so that it
actually does intersect.
Leslie (16:44):
Right.
Yeah.
Jim (16:45):
So that's a, that's a, which is why it's so important
for.
Folks to understand, to knowthat you as a leader, understand
what they're interested in andwhat motivates'em and what
excites'em and who they are aspeople.
People want to be seen.
We want to be seen.
We are wired to want to be seen,right?
So it's important that thatdoesn't just happen at home.
(17:06):
It happens at the workplace aswell.
And then.
When folks feel seen, not onlywill they see you be, feel seen
better as you, as a, with you asa leader, they'll see each other
better.
Mm-hmm.
And the best thing, the bestthing is when teams start
working on stuff.
And frankly, as a leader, Idon't even know about it or when
(17:26):
I do know about it, it's, it's,it's, here's the good report and
the thing that we just did.
They're
Leslie (17:30):
proactive.
They're proactive.
Yeah.
They take initiative.
Exactly.
Yes.
Yeah,
Jim (17:34):
exactly.
And that, that.
That is more likely to have whenpeople understand their purpose
and how that intersects with theorganization's purpose.
Leslie (17:44):
Yeah.
And as you're talking aboutthat, I'm, I'm imagine these two
circles, I'm imagining oneapproach for pulling them over
is this dialogue.
It's getting to know them, it'sunderstanding them, it's um,
helping them feel seen, heard,belong, like they belong.
Yep.
That they're important.
Yeah.
And that helps them feel astronger connection to the Yeah.
(18:07):
The business purpose.
Jim (18:08):
Exactly.
And, if you learn somethingabout what they like to do
outside of work.
Mm-hmm.
Sometimes you find out that,wow, you know, I know you'd love
to do this thing outside ofwork.
There's a thing over here insideof work that kinda is similar.
Leslie (18:22):
That's right.
Jim (18:23):
Hey, what about, what about having that conversation and
then.
That makes them kind of, oh wow,I like to do this over here and
I get to do this at work.
Right.
You know, that old, what is thatold classic saying if you find
the thing you love, you neverwork a day in your life.
Well, part of that is helpingfolks find that and helping
folks see those, see thoseopportunities Yes.
Um, in their lives.
Leslie (18:43):
Right.
And sometimes.
It's not obvious.
Sometimes it does require us tohave dialogue, conversation
Jim (18:50):
mm-hmm.
Leslie (18:51):
In order to, um, to uncover those and create, create
opportunities or, or whatnot.
Exactly.
Jim (18:58):
Exactly.
Um, I've had team members, Ihave a couple of team members
over the years that, um, we'reextremely strong graphic artists
and they love that creative partWell.
Mm.
Every organization needs tocommunicate.
We're, most of us are visuallearners.
Mm-hmm.
What if you take the thing thatyou love to do in graphic arts,
(19:19):
and maybe we can apply it in theworkplace a little bit.
Right.
And you get a love to do thatthing at the workplace while
advancing communications andhelping folks understand things.
Leslie (19:28):
Yeah.
Wow.
Jim (19:29):
How about, how about that?
Let's go do that.
Leslie (19:33):
Can we talk about purpose in government?
Absolutely.
When you're working.
Absolutely.
The government.
How does purpose show up in thegovernment?
Jim (19:42):
Oh my gosh, that's a huge question.
Well go.
Well, government's big.
So like any big organization.
It's really a lot of differentorganizations that come
together, Uhhuh to form thegovernment.
Yeah.
Whether you're talking localgovernment, you know, cities,
counties, state level governmentlike Indiana or other states,
um, or national level go levelgovernment.
Um, and even there areinternational, you know Right.
(20:04):
Collectives, right.
Yeah.
So, um, purpose is always there.
Yeah.
Um, and.
Each agency that makes up the,the, the quilt of the government
is, has its own purpose.
And, and what I've noticed overthe years, especially as someone
who's consulted in a lot ofdifferent types of government
(20:26):
agencies, and I've consulted in23 different state governments
as well.
So I've seen different ways todo government across the
country, um, at the state level.
And a lot of times folks willselect into agencies.
Their alignment with the, oftheir personal things that
they're interested in.
(20:46):
Okay.
With what the agency's statedobjectives are Right.
What their purpose is.
So department of naturalresources.
A pretty good chance of a lot ofthose folks are gonna like, they
like to be outside, they liketo, right.
They like to work in parks, theylike to do things, you know, in
that space.
Mm-hmm.
Um, you, you go to anorganization like Door, you'll
(21:07):
find people who like to work inwith numbers.
They like to work withaccounting and things like that.
Um, and those are grossgeneralizations of course, but.
You'll probably find more folksin the, in the, with accounting
interests in an organizationlike dor, like Department of
Revenue, sorry.
Um, than, and you'll find folksthat might be a little bit more,
(21:29):
I want to do park things rightin, in DNR, Department of
Natural Resources.
So you'll see that and you'llsee that alignment of purpose.
Um, with folks.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and, and again, you'll,you'll see folks, especially
folks that have been around, uh,government for a long time,
they, they very much viewthemselves as not as state
(21:49):
employees.
But as public servants.
Yeah.
Um, a lot of folks that are,that, that work in the public,
servants in the public space,they're making a choice to be
there.
Mm-hmm.
Um, because it's interesting tothem.
It's, it's, I, I find thegovernment work fascinating.
Right.
Um, and I find it very, verycompelling.
And I like the, I like thepurpose of it.
I like the puzzle of it.
(22:10):
Mm-hmm.
And it, it, it's what gets me upevery day and it's like, oh,
this is great.
Let's go do that.
Leslie (22:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
So I'm hearing.
That the individual purposevaries depending on the agency
mm-hmm.
The organization, but naturally,their purpose attracts
individuals that have thatinterest.
And those individuals also tendto view themselves as service
oriented.
Jim (22:36):
Right.
Exactly.
Exactly.
That's a, thing that, you oftenfind in, in, in that space
mm-hmm.
Is folks that really seethemselves as, as public
servants.
And, and we, we were, um, at a,at a graduation for family case
managers and our director talkeda lot about, Hey, this is the
beginning of a very big publicservice aspect of your career.
(22:56):
Think of yourselves as publicservants, not as DCS employees.
Leslie (23:01):
Right.
Jim (23:01):
And, and that changes the mindset.
Leslie (23:03):
Right?
Absolutely.
Jim (23:05):
Yep.
Leslie (23:06):
So you have, you've spent most of your career in
government
Jim (23:09):
Yes.
In and around government.
Yes.
Leslie (23:11):
Um, is it fair to say you've spent your career inside
working for the government, butalso outside in private sector?
Yes.
Any differences there?
Jim (23:22):
Yeah.
Um, absolutely.
There, there are differences.
Um, but I think at the end ofthe day, the differences aren't
as great as folks think theyare.
Leslie (23:30):
Okay.
Jim (23:31):
And the reason I say that is that I've been very lucky.
I've worked with largepharmaceutical companies and,
and folks that work inpharmaceuticals.
They're trying to deliverpatient outcomes, they're trying
to improve patients' lives, andfolks are very mission oriented
to that.
Um, and, and that is not superfar from the orientation of
(23:53):
folks who work for thegovernment.
Right.
You know, public service.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I've worked in the energyindustry and folks are.
Trying to deliver the necessarything that is energy in the way
that our, our lives and ourcities and our communities
operate.
Um, so constantly relentlesslylooking to figure out how do we
(24:14):
do this better?
How do we maximize it?
Um, and that purpose is notsuper far from.
Folks who show up to do publicservice, right?
So I haven't had the opportunityto work, I've never looked,
worked in large retail oranything like that, so I can't
really speak to that.
But I think when, when folks arefinding their opportunities,
(24:35):
finding how they show up andwherever their organization is,
we all want to naturally seewhat's our purpose and how does
that relate to mm-hmm.
What our organization is doingand how do we feel about that.
Leslie (24:48):
Yeah,
Jim (24:48):
so, so I think, I think the.
The through line there is thatas people, we want that purpose
alignment.
Leslie (24:54):
Mm-hmm.
And what if we don't find it?
Jim (24:59):
Uh, great question.
Um, if we don't find it, boy,that's a, the thing that I would
say is, is you've got to havethat dialogue with yourself.
You've gotta have the dialoguewith your team.
You've gotta have thatconversation and say, is this,
is this where I should be?
Mm-hmm.
(25:20):
Do, do I understand my purposeenough?
I would say, you know, avoid thetemptation for knee-jerk
reaction.
Right.
Um, because if you don'tunderstand your purpose, then
how do you know that you'rereally in the wrong spot?
Leslie (25:32):
Exactly.
Jim (25:33):
So understanding that purpose is a really big thing,
Leslie (25:36):
right?
Yeah.
So start with that.
Yeah.
Kind of self understanding andawareness and.
A
Jim (25:42):
hundred percent.
Yeah, yeah.
Look, gotta gotta look inward.
Talk to the people that careabout you and you know, just try
to have, try to have thatunderstanding.
Mm-hmm.
You know, we've all been inthose journeys, especially if
you've, when a little bit older,you've all had, we've all had
those conversations, thosemoments in our lives where we're
like.
Where I supposed to be.
Leslie (26:02):
Oh yeah.
I've had that many a times.
Jim (26:07):
Well, we haven't.
You haven't lived if youhaven't, so, right.
Leslie (26:09):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, and I have met people, andyou mentioned this earlier, that
the workplace.
Enables them to do their purposeoutside of work.
Mm-hmm.
So the workplace might be moretransactional for them in terms
of, I come to get a paycheck sothat I can do this.
Mm-hmm.
This other important thing in mylife and Yep.
(26:30):
Because of that work is reallyimportant too.
Jim (26:33):
E Exactly.
Yeah.
Exactly.
And, and, and I can think of afew folks that I've known over
the years that.
That they, they have their dayjob allows'em to take care of a
family member.
Mm-hmm.
And, and it is a, it is a verystrong connection and, and they
(26:54):
love the day job.
In, in some cases they love theday job because of the day job.
And that's a great, that's a,that's the best place.
But they love it because it alsoallows them to take care of that
family member.
Right.
And, and that also is a strongpurpose.
There's nothing wrong with that,
Leslie (27:10):
right?
Absolutely.
Jim (27:12):
Yep.
Leslie (27:13):
Why talk and bring purpose into the workplace?
What?
What are the benefits of purposein work in the workplace?
Jim (27:23):
I think at the end of the day, as people, we want to know
that when we get up in themorning and when we go to bed at
night, we've made a difference.
Mm-hmm.
I think we're, I think we want,I think we want that and.
That difference can be reallybig.
It can be really small, howeveryou define big and small.
(27:43):
I think understanding purpose inthe workplace is that it's a way
to collectively find a way tomake that difference day in and
day out.
Mm-hmm.
And.
And I think that's really,really fantastic.
I think that's what we, what weas humans want is what we need.
Yeah.
Um, and at least for me, that iswhy I've been in the government
(28:08):
space as long as I've been inthe government space because I
find it extremely compelling.
Mm-hmm.
I just always have.
Leslie (28:15):
Yeah.
Is there a benefit in that tothe business?
Uh,
Jim (28:20):
private side business or just the bus?
Leslie (28:23):
Either like, so what I heard is why purpose?
Well, purpose is because ashumans we want to have meaning
in our life and we wanna dothings with our, so that feels
very much, um, you know, anindividual outcome.
But what's the, what's thebenefit to the business of that
(28:43):
for the having individuals feelthat way?
Jim (28:48):
Because then they're motivated to make things better.
They're motivated to help thebusiness achieve its purpose,
whatever that is.
Mm-hmm.
And, and I, again, I thinkcollectively when you've got,
you know, you think about, um,especially now we're kind of
coming to the, the backside ofwinter here, winter here in
Indianapolis, and you know, wehave ice storms, cars slide off
(29:10):
the road.
Where am I going with this?
Well.
Do you ever see very often a cargetting pushed out of an icy
situation by one person?
Nah.
Usually there's a few peoplethat will come together and push
it out, right?
Mm-hmm.
When those folks are showing upand they have that purpose, they
can push the car to where itneeds to be better, right?
(29:30):
That's a metaphor for with folksare showing up and understanding
their purpose at work.
Then if the business is to movethe car, they can collectively
move the car better.
Leslie (29:41):
Yes.
Yeah.
And as you were, um, saying thatI've of course visualized the
car in my mind's eye and thesepeople coming together and, and
thought one of the things.
So season one was all aboutpeople with a clear purpose, who
are actively pursuing it asindividuals.
And one of the things that Ilearned is they, they take
(30:06):
responsibility.
They don't let fear get in theirway.
They face fear.
They do it scared, but they,they take the responsibility.
Sure.
And that's what I am imagined inmy head.
These people coming together andtaking responsibility
Jim (30:22):
Correct.
Leslie (30:22):
To, to help to solve the problems.
Jim (30:25):
Yep.
Leslie (30:25):
You talked earlier about.
Um, it's really great when theteam starts to do it on their
own.
That's another responsibilityexample too.
Absolutely.
Jim (30:35):
Collective responsibility.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Absolutely.
And, and, and I think when folksfind themselves in a place where
their individual purposeintersects with organizational
purpose, then that is where.
The stars of responsibility areborn.
Mm-hmm.
(30:55):
And that starts creating areally great loop.
You know, one feeds the other,one feeds the other and just
gets stronger and stronger.
Leslie (31:03):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So what advice would you give toa, a people leader that has a
group of people that may notseem connected?
To the purpose of the team orthe company?
Any advice that you would sharefor that type of person?
Jim (31:24):
Sure.
Um, if you find yourself in acircumstance where folks may not
be connecting with theirindividual purposes and then
collectively with theorganization's purpose, I think
it, that's where you have tolean in as much as you can to
understand the individuals,understand the people help draw
the line to the purpose.
(31:45):
Um.
Storytelling is a very, very bigpart of leadership and, and
helping folks make meaning ofthe circumstances that they find
themselves in, and then thepurpose that goes with that.
So every one of us has our ownstory.
Every organization has their itsown story, and realistically, we
(32:07):
all have multiple stories andorganizations have multiple
stories.
Finding that and, and tellingthat and vision casting for
that.
At the individual level, andthen if you're lucky, and if you
work hard with good purposedriven storytelling, you can
bring folks closer together andget them to see that.
(32:32):
Mm-hmm.
It won't happen all the time.
It won't be easy.
There might be a few folks whojust aren't gonna get there, and
that's okay.
Because their purpose and theirstory might be somewhere else.
Right.
So then your job becomes to helpthem find that in the best, most
compassionate way possible.
Mm-hmm.
Leslie (32:49):
So, and what I hear there, so one, get closer to
them, really understand them,but also, um, the intention is
for them, you know?
Right.
If, if they can't connect, thenhelp them elsewhere.
Jim (33:05):
That's right.
Yeah.
That's right.
That's right.
And it's.
Never about you.
It's never about you.
Mm-hmm.
It's about the team that's inyour care.
Leslie (33:16):
Yeah.
That's a, yeah.
I got goosebumps on that onebecause there's, there's,
there's all types of leaders,right?
And sometimes it does feel likeit's, it's about the leader and
not always about the, thepeople.
So.
Leadership advice.
It's not about you, it's aboutthe group.
(33:37):
Right?
The collective group.
Jim (33:39):
That's right.
That's right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's right.
And guess what, collectivelyfolks can do some pretty amazing
things.
That's right.
The boundaries of humancreativity and human ingenuity
are limitless.
Leslie (33:51):
Yeah.
Any other advice that you haveon the topic of purpose in the
workplace?
Jim (34:00):
Find your purpose.
Read.
Explore, think, wander aroundnature, whatever it takes.
Mm-hmm.
You know, constantly find itand, and recognize that as you
go through life, your purposemight change a little bit and
that's okay.
Mm-hmm.
That's okay.
Absolutely.
And, and just recognizing thatis really important and, and
(34:24):
leaning into it and being okaywith that, you know?
So that's, that's really all Igot.
It's nothing, nothing super,nothing super insightful, just.
Be open, be flexible.
Right.
Um, and, and listen.
Leslie (34:36):
Thank you so much for joining.
I have enjoyed this.
I am taking a lot away from thisand I know our audience will
too, so thank you.
Jim (34:46):
Awesome.
Thanks Leslie.
Leslie (34:49):
One thing stands out in this episode, and that is the
profound responsibility thatleaders hold for cultivating
purpose within theirorganizations.
This responsibility is truewhether you're a leader within
the government sector.
Or outside of the governmentsector.
(35:11):
In the workplace, Purpose isn'tsolely about individual
fulfillment.
It's about collective alignmentin shared vision.
And leaders are responsible forguiding this journey, ensuring
that purpose becomes a unifyingforce that drives meaningful
impact.
(35:32):
Jim, thank you for being on thisshow, and thanks to all of you
for joining us on this episodeof Purpose Project.
May it inspire you to reflect onyour role in nurturing purpose
within the sphere of influencethat surrounds you.
(35:55):
Purpose Project is brought toyou for education and for
entertainment purposes.
This podcast is not intended toreplace the advice that you
would receive from a licensedtherapist or doctor or any other
qualified professional.
Welcome to episode 10 of PurposeProject Stars of Responsibility.
I am your host, Leslie Pagel,and in this episode I sit down
with Jim Obermaier.
Jim is a seasoned leader withover 30 years of experience
serving numerous sectors withinthe US government.
(00:24):
Jim currently serves as a Chiefoperating officer within, uh,
the Indiana Department of ChildServices.
With so many years of experienceworking in and around different
government agencies, I wanted tosit down with Jim to explore
whether purpose in thegovernment workplace mirrors
(00:46):
that of purpose outside of thegovernment workplace.
And that's exactly what we do inthis episode.
Let's take a listen.
Leslie (00:56):
Jim, thank you so much for being on Purpose Project.
I am really looking forward totalking about how purpose shows
up in the workplace.
Jim (01:04):
All right.
Thanks for having me, Leslie.
Leslie (01:06):
Let's start with getting to know you.
Tell us a little bit about whoyou are personally and
professionally.
Jim (01:13):
Oh, oh, sure.
Personally live here inIndianapolis.
Been been in Hoosier now forabout 22, 23 years, which is
kind of crazy.
My wife's from here, so I'm atransplanted Hoosier by
marriage.
Um.
Have, um, a background in a lotof different things, um, both
professionally and personally.
(01:34):
Very, very interested and, andvery excited about history.
Very excited about, you know,kinda learning different parts
of the country and understandinghow people show up given where
they are, given where they mightbe from.
Got a couple of kids.
Um, we, we like to think thatour kids are somewhat
interesting.
Uh, one of'em lives in Hawaii, Ithink she's been on this podcast
(01:55):
before.
Um, and she works in theenvironmental and conservation
space in Hawaii and also doesoutrigger canoeing competitively
in Hawaii.
She's been there about four orfive years now.
I.
And then our son does softwaresales by day, but he has a
pretty successful band by night.
And they're, they travel aroundthe country and play indie pop.
(02:16):
And they're actually, I wastalking to him on the way over
here.
They're actually driving fromIndianapolis to Milwaukee.
Leslie (02:21):
Wow.
Insane.
Uh, for
Jim (02:22):
gigs tonight.
Insane.
And they's gonna end up inColorado in a few days.
Leslie (02:25):
Very cool.
Yep.
Jim (02:26):
Yeah, it's kind of cool.
So, um, I love to love to do alot of reading, like to do some
hiking, like to just kind of goout and travel a lot.
And, um, I'm a big urban hiker.
I love to explore cities.
Yeah.
And, um, just kind of, you know,enjoy those kinds of things.
Mm-hmm.
Leslie (02:43):
How about professionally?
Jim (02:45):
Professionally?
Um, so I currently work at thestate of Indiana.
I'm the Chief Operating Officerof the Department of Child
Services, which is the agencythat, that, that works in child
welfare, adoption, foster care,child support, and various other
things in that, in thatuniverse.
Um, I've been around publicsector world for the bulk of my
(03:05):
career for about 35 years now,uh, which is really hard to
believe.
It's been that long.
And I've worked, I've been aconsultant most of the time, um,
been on both the business sideand the technology side.
So I'm one of those weird peoplewho can kind of be conversant
and, and, um, able to operate inboth spaces and kinda see the
(03:26):
intersections.
I.
Between those two, um, betweenthose two areas, worked across
state government.
I've been in, I've been in nowof course, child services.
I've worked in, um, revenue, solike tax collection.
Um, that's always a fun one thatpeople are always like, Ooh,
you're a tax collector.
Someone has to do it.
Um, worked in, uh, corrections.
(03:46):
I've worked in bureau motorvehicles.
Oh, I've worked intransportation and worked in
aging.
Worked in health and humanservices.
And of course worked in, workedin general technology, so very
deep background, um, and havedone, had a couple of consulting
since in energy andpharmaceuticals as well.
So pretty, pretty variedbackground, but the through line
(04:09):
has always been, uh, in thepublic service space.
Leslie (04:11):
Okay.
Okay.
So I heard someone who's verycurious, like very much like to
explore, discover.
Jim (04:19):
Yep.
Leslie (04:20):
Um, strong family connections.
Uh, professional work mostly in,in public sector,
Jim (04:27):
correct.
Leslie (04:28):
Both kind of working within the government, but also
outside as a consultant workingfor Okay.
Jim (04:34):
Yeah.
I had my own company for about11 years.
It was, was an independentconsultant, um, and integrated
and partnered up with variousfolks, so depending on the needs
of the project and the client,so, yeah.
Nice.
Yeah, so I've got a little bitof an entrepreneurial streak in
me and.
I tend to, when I'm on theinside, when I'm actually
working for an organization, Itend to be a little bit of an,
an intrapreneur, uh, trying tofigure out ways to, you know,
(04:57):
Hey, let's not do things the waywe've always done'em.
Let's actually try to thinkabout things differently.
Leslie (05:02):
Yeah.
Well, I would love to probeinto.
How, and if purpose kind ofinfluences that.
Sure.
But before we go there, aquestion I ask everyone.
Jim (05:14):
Okay.
Leslie (05:14):
Is, do you have a life's purpose, personally,
Jim (05:17):
a life's purpose?
That's a great question.
Was thinking about that on theway over and, and Yes, I do.
Um, life's purpose is as alwaysgoes back to family.
Um, and being there for them andbeing, being the best version of
me that I can be.
For them and, and recognizingthat over time as families
change, as we, as individualschange, the core purpose stays
(05:41):
the same.
Some of the edges of it and someof the manifestations of it,
depending on the season change.
So, you know, kids when they'rein their twenties are a little
bit different than Yeah.
Kids when they're in their, youknow, elementary school years or
their high school years.
My wife and I are going into 37years of marriage this year.
And, you know, marriages thatare 37 years old are different
(06:02):
than marriages when they're fiveyears old.
Great.
All seasons Uhhuh, but they havedifferent needs.
Um, so the purpose shows up alittle bit different every,
every season.
Leslie (06:11):
Yeah.
But it's, but it's, it's alwayscentered in family.
Absolutely.
And Absolutely.
And the way it shows up evolvesYep.
As the family unit evolves.
Exactly.
Jim (06:19):
Exactly.
And family units, um, in myexperience, they, they evolve a
little bit too.
And, and by that I mean not justthe blood units.
But the, the friends that comeand go as well, uh, during the
different times of your life andthe different, you know,
opportunities that, that theuniverse presents.
Leslie (06:36):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, thanks for sharing yourpurpose with us.
Sure, sure.
Let's dive into purpose in theworkplace.
Let's start pretty broad andthen we will, um, we'll narrow
in from there.
Sounds good.
From your experience and yourperspective, how does purpose
show up in the workplace?
Jim (06:55):
Um, I.
It, it, it varies a lot.
I mean, we, we all know from,we've worked for some folks that
their purposes, they, they, forwhatever their world is, they
show up because it's a job thatthey have and they need to come
in, do the job, and it's.
It's a transactional experiencefrom I show up and give you
time, you give me money, we, wepart at the end of the day and
(07:17):
then we do it all over again.
That's one purpose and that's avery, very great purpose.
Yeah.
Um, for me, purpose in theworkplace, um, especially given
what I'm currently doing at thestate with the Department of
Child Services, is really abouttwo things.
One is finding ways to care for.
(07:37):
The folks that are on the teamsthat I work with, teams, not
only the teams that report tome, but the teams that, that I
work with around, um, our agencyaround the state and even
outside of the state because wehave a lot of partners outside
of the state and, and figuringout how do I, how do I.
How do I help make their liveseasier?
(07:59):
How do I make it easier for themto do their jobs so that they
can serve the population that weserve, which is the most
vulnerable Hoosier children andtheir families?
Um, that's one major, majorpurpose for me.
Another major purpose is, um,really figuring out a way to
organize chaos, make systemswork better.
(08:22):
I've always been.
I, I didn't realize it when Iwas younger, but I've always
been a pretty big systemsthinker.
Okay.
And looking for ways to, to makethe mousetrap work better and,
and how does all that fittogether?
And how can, how can we smooththat out so that people can have
a maximum experience so thatthey can show up and do their
(08:44):
jobs in the most maximum way fortheir customers.
Yeah.
Whatever those customers are.
Yeah.
And that has always beensomething that I've been kind of
just.
Relentlessly drawn to, I'm, I'm,I'm, you know, I'm, I'm the guy
that organizes the silverwaredrawer.
I'm the guy that makes sure thatthe plates are all in the right
spot.
I'm the guy that will walk byand straighten the place mats on
(09:06):
the table and, and those littlethings.
I also try to do them withorganizations that I'm involved
with.
Um, not just unilaterally, butwith the folks that are, that
are around the organization and,and to facilitate conversations
and facilitate.
Ideas and then to facilitateexecution.
Right.
Of, you know, making the placemat straight.
Leslie (09:25):
Yeah.
So I heard, purpose in theworkplace is really about the,
the, the role of the individualin their job.
Yeah.
And, and it could be, my purposeis to come and perform a job and
get a paycheck and it'stransactional.
Yeah.
But in your case, I was hearingmore.
(09:45):
Alignment with your strengths,your interests, your being who
you are.
Right, right.
And, and fulfilling those.
Right.
In a workplace where you alsobenefit with a paycheck.
Jim (09:57):
Well, absolutely.
That, that is a thing.
Um, one of the things that Ifound as I've, as I've moved,
you know, further in my careerand, you know, kind of being
closer to the, I, I think I dida calculation that if I, if my
career were a golf course, Ithink right now I'm on.
Whole 15 or so, so kind ofcloser to the, closer to the end
of the course and the, uh, thanthe beginning of the course.
(10:19):
But as I've moved further along,I've also really gotten excited
about helping people that I workwith figure out how, what
excites them, what's theirpurpose in the workplace.
And, and I think as you, as youget further in your career, as
you.
You know, maybe if you are, are,are privileged enough, like I've
(10:40):
been to move into leadershiproles.
It's a responsibility to helpfolks figure out what their
purpose is.
If someone is playing rightfield, but they're a better
shortstop, help them get to playshortstop.
If someone's playing shortstopat their better first base
person, help them get to firstbase.
(11:00):
Yeah.
That is absolutely aresponsibility.
Yeah, and if you can find peopleand help people get to those
realizations and then to helpactually make that happen for
'em, then guess what?
What the organization does, howthe organization does the
outcomes, the organ, theorganization achieves.
(11:22):
All raise.
Right?
They all get better.
And guess what?
People feel a little bit morecomfortable.
Leslie (11:28):
Right?
Jim (11:28):
And that means they're probably gonna feel a little bit
happier in their jobs.
Yeah, which is important.
Leslie (11:33):
So I wanna put an exclamation point on this.
'cause what I heard is purposeis leadership.
It is a leadershipresponsibility.
Hundred percent.
Whether you are the leader or anindividual contributor,
Jim (11:50):
100%.
Leslie (11:51):
It's still an opportunity and it is how you
get the most out of your team.
Jim (11:57):
Yep, exactly.
And, and it is theresponsibility of someone if
they're an, if you're, again,privileged enough to be in the
leadership role, it is yourresponsibility to go to your
team member.
95%, 95% of the journey is onthe leader to go to the team
member.
Right?
Not 95% of the journey is on theteam member to come to the
(12:18):
leader.
Mm-hmm.
That is absolutely anathema tothe way that I believe it
operates, and I certainlywouldn't operate that way.
So can you say
Leslie (12:25):
a little bit more about this?
So the leader going to the teammember in terms of helping to
understand their purpose or tosay a little bit more, getting
to
Jim (12:33):
know'em, getting to know'em as people?
I really, really like to get toknow folks.
You know, Hey, where are youfrom?
Right?
What's your, what's your worldlook like?
What do you like to do outsideof work?
You know, get to know folks.
What, what excites you?
What's your hobby?
If you weren't here, what wouldyou be doing?
Um, if you weren't doing thisjob, what other job?
What did you think you might bedoing?
(12:53):
What interests you?
And in getting to know folks, ithelps put together the fabric
of, you know, and organizationsare never.
Like one single piece of fabric.
It's never a bla a big blanketmade out of a single piece of
fabric.
It's a quilt made out of theindividual squares that are the
different people in theorganization.
Love.
Right.
I love
Leslie (13:12):
that visual.
Yes.
Jim (13:13):
So understand the makeup of the squares and how they fit
together to make up the quiltand you get a better thing that
will keep you warm.
Right.
So it's really incumbent on theleader to go understand those
individuals as people.
Then help understand, oh, thisis the type of team that, that
(13:34):
we're working with.
This is what excites thembecause that influences what the
direction one might choose to goin and one, and what might
choose collectively to ideateon, and then to actually put
plans together to go make ithappen.
Leslie (13:49):
Yeah.
So I am hearing a lot aboutindividual purpose.
We're talking about individualpurpose and.
And how your strengths, you lookat living those out and then as
a leader looking to understandthat there's also purpose of the
business mm-hmm.
Or purpose of the team.
(14:10):
I think of that as thecollective purpose, sure,
Jim (14:13):
sure.
Leslie (14:14):
What importance does that have over this kind of
getting to know the individualand their purpose out of the two
blend together?
Jim (14:23):
Sure, sure.
So sports metaphor, alert, um,if the business is basketball,
Leslie (14:32):
uhhuh,
Jim (14:33):
getting to know folks and understanding.
What their interest is.
And if you find out that you'vegot a team of folks that are
more interested in baseball,then that influences how the,
how that team can affect thepurpose of the business.
Probably not gonna be the bestbasketball team that you're
gonna have.
(14:53):
I'm, I'm a whopping five footsix on a low gravity day.
I am not the guy that's, you'regonna hire to go, hi, dunk a
basketball.
Mm-hmm.
Ain't gonna happen.
Just not gonna.
And if you do, well the goodluck.
That's a bad choice on yourpart.
So you've gotta understand whoyour team is and what they're
interested in, and, and thenbounce that up against what game
you're playing, right?
What, what the purpose of theorganization is, and, and try to
(15:16):
find the best alignment as youpossibly can.
And sometimes it's going, thisis what we think the purpose of
the organization is.
Where's the wiggle room to bringit closer to the team?
Sometimes it's, Hey, team, letme help you understand.
Let's, let's collectivelyunderstand the purpose of the
organization and how do we seeourselves as that.
(15:38):
As that team, as that quilt showup to meet that purpose.
Right?
Um, and then if we, if we don'thave a great overlap with it,
or, or as much overlap as weneed, what else do we need?
Leslie (15:49):
Uhhuh,
Jim (15:50):
how do we, how do we close that?
How do we close that gap?
How do we, how do we cover thatwith the blanket or the quilt a
little bit better?
Right?
Leslie (15:56):
So it's a, I mean, I'm envisioning two circles that
start to intersect.
It's a Venn diagram businesspurpose.
Yes.
Hundred
Jim (16:04):
percent.
Leslie (16:05):
And the more that they can overlap, the better.
Sure.
And sometimes it's a pulling ofone side or a pushing of the
other.
Exactly.
Jim (16:14):
Exactly.
And, and, and when you get ateam that.
Feels the purpose of, and thenyou get that intersection with
their individual purposealigning with the collective
purpose.
Those circles can overlap more.
Mm-hmm.
And they can get a little bitmore pliable, a little bit more
(16:35):
flexible for the places thatmaybe they don't naturally
intersect.
Mm-hmm.
They actually can kind of workit out a little bit so that it
actually does intersect.
Leslie (16:44):
Right.
Yeah.
Jim (16:45):
So that's a, that's a, which is why it's so important
for.
Folks to understand, to knowthat you as a leader, understand
what they're interested in andwhat motivates'em and what
excites'em and who they are aspeople.
People want to be seen.
We want to be seen.
We are wired to want to be seen,right?
So it's important that thatdoesn't just happen at home.
(17:06):
It happens at the workplace aswell.
And then.
When folks feel seen, not onlywill they see you be, feel seen
better as you, as a, with you asa leader, they'll see each other
better.
Mm-hmm.
And the best thing, the bestthing is when teams start
working on stuff.
And frankly, as a leader, Idon't even know about it or when
(17:26):
I do know about it, it's, it's,it's, here's the good report and
the thing that we just did.
They're
Leslie (17:30):
proactive.
They're proactive.
Yeah.
They take initiative.
Exactly.
Yes.
Yeah,
Jim (17:34):
exactly.
And that, that.
That is more likely to have whenpeople understand their purpose
and how that intersects with theorganization's purpose.
Leslie (17:44):
Yeah.
And as you're talking aboutthat, I'm, I'm imagine these two
circles, I'm imagining oneapproach for pulling them over
is this dialogue.
It's getting to know them, it'sunderstanding them, it's um,
helping them feel seen, heard,belong, like they belong.
Yep.
That they're important.
Yeah.
And that helps them feel astronger connection to the Yeah.
(18:07):
The business purpose.
Jim (18:08):
Exactly.
And, if you learn somethingabout what they like to do
outside of work.
Mm-hmm.
Sometimes you find out that,wow, you know, I know you'd love
to do this thing outside ofwork.
There's a thing over here insideof work that kinda is similar.
Leslie (18:22):
That's right.
Jim (18:23):
Hey, what about, what about having that conversation and
then.
That makes them kind of, oh wow,I like to do this over here and
I get to do this at work.
Right.
You know, that old, what is thatold classic saying if you find
the thing you love, you neverwork a day in your life.
Well, part of that is helpingfolks find that and helping
folks see those, see thoseopportunities Yes.
Um, in their lives.
Leslie (18:43):
Right.
And sometimes.
It's not obvious.
Sometimes it does require us tohave dialogue, conversation
Jim (18:50):
mm-hmm.
Leslie (18:51):
In order to, um, to uncover those and create, create
opportunities or, or whatnot.
Exactly.
Jim (18:58):
Exactly.
Um, I've had team members, Ihave a couple of team members
over the years that, um, we'reextremely strong graphic artists
and they love that creative partWell.
Mm.
Every organization needs tocommunicate.
We're, most of us are visuallearners.
Mm-hmm.
What if you take the thing thatyou love to do in graphic arts,
(19:19):
and maybe we can apply it in theworkplace a little bit.
Right.
And you get a love to do thatthing at the workplace while
advancing communications andhelping folks understand things.
Leslie (19:28):
Yeah.
Wow.
Jim (19:29):
How about, how about that?
Let's go do that.
Leslie (19:33):
Can we talk about purpose in government?
Absolutely.
When you're working.
Absolutely.
The government.
How does purpose show up in thegovernment?
Jim (19:42):
Oh my gosh, that's a huge question.
Well go.
Well, government's big.
So like any big organization.
It's really a lot of differentorganizations that come
together, Uhhuh to form thegovernment.
Yeah.
Whether you're talking localgovernment, you know, cities,
counties, state level governmentlike Indiana or other states,
um, or national level go levelgovernment.
Um, and even there areinternational, you know Right.
(20:04):
Collectives, right.
Yeah.
So, um, purpose is always there.
Yeah.
Um, and.
Each agency that makes up the,the, the quilt of the government
is, has its own purpose.
And, and what I've noticed overthe years, especially as someone
who's consulted in a lot ofdifferent types of government
(20:26):
agencies, and I've consulted in23 different state governments
as well.
So I've seen different ways todo government across the
country, um, at the state level.
And a lot of times folks willselect into agencies.
Their alignment with the, oftheir personal things that
they're interested in.
(20:46):
Okay.
With what the agency's statedobjectives are Right.
What their purpose is.
So department of naturalresources.
A pretty good chance of a lot ofthose folks are gonna like, they
like to be outside, they liketo, right.
They like to work in parks, theylike to do things, you know, in
that space.
Mm-hmm.
Um, you, you go to anorganization like Door, you'll
(21:07):
find people who like to work inwith numbers.
They like to work withaccounting and things like that.
Um, and those are grossgeneralizations of course, but.
You'll probably find more folksin the, in the, with accounting
interests in an organizationlike dor, like Department of
Revenue, sorry.
Um, than, and you'll find folksthat might be a little bit more,
(21:29):
I want to do park things rightin, in DNR, Department of
Natural Resources.
So you'll see that and you'llsee that alignment of purpose.
Um, with folks.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and, and again, you'll,you'll see folks, especially
folks that have been around, uh,government for a long time,
they, they very much viewthemselves as not as state
(21:49):
employees.
But as public servants.
Yeah.
Um, a lot of folks that are,that, that work in the public,
servants in the public space,they're making a choice to be
there.
Mm-hmm.
Um, because it's interesting tothem.
It's, it's, I, I find thegovernment work fascinating.
Right.
Um, and I find it very, verycompelling.
And I like the, I like thepurpose of it.
I like the puzzle of it.
(22:10):
Mm-hmm.
And it, it, it's what gets me upevery day and it's like, oh,
this is great.
Let's go do that.
Leslie (22:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
So I'm hearing.
That the individual purposevaries depending on the agency
mm-hmm.
The organization, but naturally,their purpose attracts
individuals that have thatinterest.
And those individuals also tendto view themselves as service
oriented.
Jim (22:36):
Right.
Exactly.
Exactly.
That's a, thing that, you oftenfind in, in, in that space
mm-hmm.
Is folks that really seethemselves as, as public
servants.
And, and we, we were, um, at a,at a graduation for family case
managers and our director talkeda lot about, Hey, this is the
beginning of a very big publicservice aspect of your career.
(22:56):
Think of yourselves as publicservants, not as DCS employees.
Leslie (23:01):
Right.
Jim (23:01):
And, and that changes the mindset.
Leslie (23:03):
Right?
Absolutely.
Jim (23:05):
Yep.
Leslie (23:06):
So you have, you've spent most of your career in
government
Jim (23:09):
Yes.
In and around government.
Yes.
Leslie (23:11):
Um, is it fair to say you've spent your career inside
working for the government, butalso outside in private sector?
Yes.
Any differences there?
Jim (23:22):
Yeah.
Um, absolutely.
There, there are differences.
Um, but I think at the end ofthe day, the differences aren't
as great as folks think theyare.
Leslie (23:30):
Okay.
Jim (23:31):
And the reason I say that is that I've been very lucky.
I've worked with largepharmaceutical companies and,
and folks that work inpharmaceuticals.
They're trying to deliverpatient outcomes, they're trying
to improve patients' lives, andfolks are very mission oriented
to that.
Um, and, and that is not superfar from the orientation of
(23:53):
folks who work for thegovernment.
Right.
You know, public service.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I've worked in the energyindustry and folks are.
Trying to deliver the necessarything that is energy in the way
that our, our lives and ourcities and our communities
operate.
Um, so constantly relentlesslylooking to figure out how do we
(24:14):
do this better?
How do we maximize it?
Um, and that purpose is notsuper far from.
Folks who show up to do publicservice, right?
So I haven't had the opportunityto work, I've never looked,
worked in large retail oranything like that, so I can't
really speak to that.
But I think when, when folks arefinding their opportunities,
(24:35):
finding how they show up andwherever their organization is,
we all want to naturally seewhat's our purpose and how does
that relate to mm-hmm.
What our organization is doingand how do we feel about that.
Leslie (24:48):
Yeah,
Jim (24:48):
so, so I think, I think the.
The through line there is thatas people, we want that purpose
alignment.
Leslie (24:54):
Mm-hmm.
And what if we don't find it?
Jim (24:59):
Uh, great question.
Um, if we don't find it, boy,that's a, the thing that I would
say is, is you've got to havethat dialogue with yourself.
You've gotta have the dialoguewith your team.
You've gotta have thatconversation and say, is this,
is this where I should be?
Mm-hmm.
(25:20):
Do, do I understand my purposeenough?
I would say, you know, avoid thetemptation for knee-jerk
reaction.
Right.
Um, because if you don'tunderstand your purpose, then
how do you know that you'rereally in the wrong spot?
Leslie (25:32):
Exactly.
Jim (25:33):
So understanding that purpose is a really big thing,
Leslie (25:36):
right?
Yeah.
So start with that.
Yeah.
Kind of self understanding andawareness and.
A
Jim (25:42):
hundred percent.
Yeah, yeah.
Look, gotta gotta look inward.
Talk to the people that careabout you and you know, just try
to have, try to have thatunderstanding.
Mm-hmm.
You know, we've all been inthose journeys, especially if
you've, when a little bit older,you've all had, we've all had
those conversations, thosemoments in our lives where we're
like.
Where I supposed to be.
Leslie (26:02):
Oh yeah.
I've had that many a times.
Jim (26:07):
Well, we haven't.
You haven't lived if youhaven't, so, right.
Leslie (26:09):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, and I have met people, andyou mentioned this earlier, that
the workplace.
Enables them to do their purposeoutside of work.
Mm-hmm.
So the workplace might be moretransactional for them in terms
of, I come to get a paycheck sothat I can do this.
Mm-hmm.
This other important thing in mylife and Yep.
(26:30):
Because of that work is reallyimportant too.
Jim (26:33):
E Exactly.
Yeah.
Exactly.
And, and, and I can think of afew folks that I've known over
the years that.
That they, they have their dayjob allows'em to take care of a
family member.
Mm-hmm.
And, and it is a, it is a verystrong connection and, and they
(26:54):
love the day job.
In, in some cases they love theday job because of the day job.
And that's a great, that's a,that's the best place.
But they love it because it alsoallows them to take care of that
family member.
Right.
And, and that also is a strongpurpose.
There's nothing wrong with that,
Leslie (27:10):
right?
Absolutely.
Jim (27:12):
Yep.
Leslie (27:13):
Why talk and bring purpose into the workplace?
What?
What are the benefits of purposein work in the workplace?
Jim (27:23):
I think at the end of the day, as people, we want to know
that when we get up in themorning and when we go to bed at
night, we've made a difference.
Mm-hmm.
I think we're, I think we want,I think we want that and.
That difference can be reallybig.
It can be really small, howeveryou define big and small.
(27:43):
I think understanding purpose inthe workplace is that it's a way
to collectively find a way tomake that difference day in and
day out.
Mm-hmm.
And.
And I think that's really,really fantastic.
I think that's what we, what weas humans want is what we need.
Yeah.
Um, and at least for me, that iswhy I've been in the government
(28:08):
space as long as I've been inthe government space because I
find it extremely compelling.
Mm-hmm.
I just always have.
Leslie (28:15):
Yeah.
Is there a benefit in that tothe business?
Uh,
Jim (28:20):
private side business or just the bus?
Leslie (28:23):
Either like, so what I heard is why purpose?
Well, purpose is because ashumans we want to have meaning
in our life and we wanna dothings with our, so that feels
very much, um, you know, anindividual outcome.
But what's the, what's thebenefit to the business of that
(28:43):
for the having individuals feelthat way?
Jim (28:48):
Because then they're motivated to make things better.
They're motivated to help thebusiness achieve its purpose,
whatever that is.
Mm-hmm.
And, and I, again, I thinkcollectively when you've got,
you know, you think about, um,especially now we're kind of
coming to the, the backside ofwinter here, winter here in
Indianapolis, and you know, wehave ice storms, cars slide off
(29:10):
the road.
Where am I going with this?
Well.
Do you ever see very often a cargetting pushed out of an icy
situation by one person?
Nah.
Usually there's a few peoplethat will come together and push
it out, right?
Mm-hmm.
When those folks are showing upand they have that purpose, they
can push the car to where itneeds to be better, right?
(29:30):
That's a metaphor for with folksare showing up and understanding
their purpose at work.
Then if the business is to movethe car, they can collectively
move the car better.
Leslie (29:41):
Yes.
Yeah.
And as you were, um, saying thatI've of course visualized the
car in my mind's eye and thesepeople coming together and, and
thought one of the things.
So season one was all aboutpeople with a clear purpose, who
are actively pursuing it asindividuals.
And one of the things that Ilearned is they, they take
(30:06):
responsibility.
They don't let fear get in theirway.
They face fear.
They do it scared, but they,they take the responsibility.
Sure.
And that's what I am imagined inmy head.
These people coming together andtaking responsibility
Jim (30:22):
Correct.
Leslie (30:22):
To, to help to solve the problems.
Jim (30:25):
Yep.
Leslie (30:25):
You talked earlier about.
Um, it's really great when theteam starts to do it on their
own.
That's another responsibilityexample too.
Absolutely.
Jim (30:35):
Collective responsibility.
Yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
Absolutely.
And, and, and I think when folksfind themselves in a place where
their individual purposeintersects with organizational
purpose, then that is where.
The stars of responsibility areborn.
Mm-hmm.
(30:55):
And that starts creating areally great loop.
You know, one feeds the other,one feeds the other and just
gets stronger and stronger.
Leslie (31:03):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So what advice would you give toa, a people leader that has a
group of people that may notseem connected?
To the purpose of the team orthe company?
Any advice that you would sharefor that type of person?
Jim (31:24):
Sure.
Um, if you find yourself in acircumstance where folks may not
be connecting with theirindividual purposes and then
collectively with theorganization's purpose, I think
it, that's where you have tolean in as much as you can to
understand the individuals,understand the people help draw
the line to the purpose.
(31:45):
Um.
Storytelling is a very, very bigpart of leadership and, and
helping folks make meaning ofthe circumstances that they find
themselves in, and then thepurpose that goes with that.
So every one of us has our ownstory.
Every organization has their itsown story, and realistically, we
(32:07):
all have multiple stories andorganizations have multiple
stories.
Finding that and, and tellingthat and vision casting for
that.
At the individual level, andthen if you're lucky, and if you
work hard with good purposedriven storytelling, you can
bring folks closer together andget them to see that.
(32:32):
Mm-hmm.
It won't happen all the time.
It won't be easy.
There might be a few folks whojust aren't gonna get there, and
that's okay.
Because their purpose and theirstory might be somewhere else.
Right.
So then your job becomes to helpthem find that in the best, most
compassionate way possible.
Mm-hmm.
Leslie (32:49):
So, and what I hear there, so one, get closer to
them, really understand them,but also, um, the intention is
for them, you know?
Right.
If, if they can't connect, thenhelp them elsewhere.
Jim (33:05):
That's right.
Yeah.
That's right.
That's right.
And it's.
Never about you.
It's never about you.
Mm-hmm.
It's about the team that's inyour care.
Leslie (33:16):
Yeah.
That's a, yeah.
I got goosebumps on that onebecause there's, there's,
there's all types of leaders,right?
And sometimes it does feel likeit's, it's about the leader and
not always about the, thepeople.
So.
Leadership advice.
It's not about you, it's aboutthe group.
(33:37):
Right?
The collective group.
Jim (33:39):
That's right.
That's right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's right.
And guess what, collectivelyfolks can do some pretty amazing
things.
That's right.
The boundaries of humancreativity and human ingenuity
are limitless.
Leslie (33:51):
Yeah.
Any other advice that you haveon the topic of purpose in the
workplace?
Jim (34:00):
Find your purpose.
Read.
Explore, think, wander aroundnature, whatever it takes.
Mm-hmm.
You know, constantly find itand, and recognize that as you
go through life, your purposemight change a little bit and
that's okay.
Mm-hmm.
That's okay.
Absolutely.
And, and just recognizing thatis really important and, and
(34:24):
leaning into it and being okaywith that, you know?
So that's, that's really all Igot.
It's nothing, nothing super,nothing super insightful, just.
Be open, be flexible.
Right.
Um, and, and listen.
Leslie (34:36):
Thank you so much for joining.
I have enjoyed this.
I am taking a lot away from thisand I know our audience will
too, so thank you.
Jim (34:46):
Awesome.
Thanks Leslie.
Leslie (34:49):
One thing stands out in this episode, and that is the
profound responsibility thatleaders hold for cultivating
purpose within theirorganizations.
This responsibility is truewhether you're a leader within
the government sector.
Or outside of the governmentsector.
(35:11):
In the workplace, Purpose isn'tsolely about individual
fulfillment.
It's about collective alignmentin shared vision.
And leaders are responsible forguiding this journey, ensuring
that purpose becomes a unifyingforce that drives meaningful
impact.
(35:32):
Jim, thank you for being on thisshow, and thanks to all of you
for joining us on this episodeof Purpose Project.
May it inspire you to reflect onyour role in nurturing purpose
within the sphere of influencethat surrounds you.
(35:55):
Purpose Project is brought toyou for education and for
entertainment purposes.
This podcast is not intended toreplace the advice that you
would receive from a licensedtherapist or doctor or any other
qualified professional.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.