April 1, 2025 • 50 mins
In this episode of Purpose Project, Leslie Pagel sits down with Josh Plaskoff, a leader in employee engagement and a professor of leadership. They discuss the true essence of what brings a business to life—beyond products, numbers, or brands—and focus on the integral role of people, energy, and deeper purpose. Josh shares his personal journey, highlighting his extensive career in corporate leadership and academia. Together, they explore the importance of dialogue, empathy, and the dynamic nature of purpose within both individuals and organizations. The conversation expands to discuss the role of leadership in nurturing purpose and the essentiality of maintaining the human element in the workforce. The episode concludes with reflections on the importance of keeping the business's soul alive and the impact of purpose on the vitality of organizations.
00:00 Introduction to Purpose Project
00:53 Meet Josh Plaskoff: A Journey of Learning and Leadership
03:20 Defining Purpose: Personal and Professional Insights
06:49 Purpose in the Workplace: Aligning Individual and Corporate Goals
13:57 Challenges and Opportunities in Embracing Purpose
19:46 The Resurgence of Purpose: Genuine Belief or Profit-Driven?
25:03 The Role of Dialogue and Empathy
30:24 Rediscovering the Soul of a Business
37:01 The Importance of Rituals and Traditions
45:15 Final Thoughts on Purpose in the Workplace
48:15 Conclusion and Reflection
Purpose Project is a research study on the topic of life's purpose. You can follow along in the making of Purpose Project:
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LinkedIn: @purposeproject-media
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Episode Transcript
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(00:04):
What gives a business its soul?
It's not just the product or thenumbers or the brand, it's the
people, the energy, and thedeeper purpose that fuels the
business.
Hi, my name is Leslie Pagel andwelcome to Purpose Project.
In this episode, I sit down withJosh Plaskoff.
(00:26):
Josh is a leader in employeeengagement and a professor of
leadership at Purdue University.
In this episode, we explore whattruly brings a business to life.
Together we discuss whyengagement isn't just about
checking the box and how themost successful companies don't
(00:47):
just talk about purpose, theylive it.
Let's take a listen.
Leslie (00:52):
Josh, thank you for coming and being on Purpose
Project.
I'm looking forward toconversation.
Thanks, It's to be here.
I'm I'm, really looking too.
I imagine we going to go all theplace when comes to purpose in
the workplace.
But before we get to that, tellus a little bit about who is
(01:12):
Josh plaskoff?
Who is Josh?
Um,
Josh (01:16):
the lifelong project of who am I?
Um, uh, I don't know.
I, uh, grew up in an actingfamily and um, in California I
have always been kind of ahypersensitive kid.
I was a hypersensitive kid and,and as a result Always been
(01:36):
interested in feelings of
POD00058 (01:38):
people
Josh (01:39):
and connecting with people.
And I really didn't know what Iwanted do.
I.
Still sure know what I'm doing.
but, uh, um, uh, got reallyinterested in just learning and
learning anything I abouteverything.
And so sort of a lifelonglearner, learned.
from shakespeare to physics toname And all of my education was
(02:04):
in learning and really all of mywork in learning yeah, I I'm a
learning kind guy.
Um, how about professionally?
So professionally, uh, 30 yearsin industry, um, to an executive
position.
And, um, at the same timetaught, uh, for
POD00058 (02:23):
about 20
Josh (02:24):
years at the university concurrently.
And, uh, took three years toteach full time, Kelley School
Business.
And that was really fun.
And I went back to my old careerand decided was time to kind of,
uh, leave the corporate world,uh, not completely, but being in
(02:44):
the corporate and teach full andstart my business.
so um, so now I'm, uh, teachingup at Purdue and um, leadership
and teaching the generation,which is of what I really love
do.
then also started my company, isreally about, you about purpose.
That's kind living my purposeand working a few for my friends
(03:05):
to live their purpose.
So, love it.
Yeah.
Leslie (03:08):
One question I ask everyone Mm-hmm.
What is your purpose?
IMG_6281 (03:12):
have a life purpose,
Leslie (03:13):
what is it?
You know, somebody asked me thatI would say probably 25 ago.
Josh (03:19):
And I didn't even think just came out was
IMG_6281 (03:21):
to
Josh (03:21):
make the workplace more human and stuck.
it sort of, uh, uh, I it'sbroadened since then to make the
world more human.
But, um, so much my time isspent in the workplace and the
workplace that.
Um, really to try humanizethings and I saw so much
(03:41):
happening to me to me, to me toothers that me about the
workplace in terms pushing awayhumanity, pushing away we are as
people, um, becoming themachine.
And really
POD00058 (03:56):
frustrated me.
Mm-hmm.
Josh (03:58):
it just came out and it sort of stuck and that's what
is.
whenever anybody asks me, that'ssay, to make make workplace Yes.
Well, and it's perfect fit forconversation today, which is all
about how purpose shows up inthe workplace.
Leslie (04:15):
Could you, before we go there, could you share little
bit about business?
'cause I think that will helpset the context for our
conversation.
Sure.
Yeah.
Um, so the company called InnerHuman Group and, and really the
focus is on.
trying to take a different toorganizations is trying to
reframe what organizations arewhat means be in an
Josh (04:37):
with people.
Um, most organizations,consulting is done as a
structural thing.
We look at things as things.
We look at as things, they'rejust moving around those things.
And our approach morerelationship.
First things second.
Actually, your relationshipdefines your thingness.
And so in organizations, welooking the relationships not
(05:00):
only people, of people topurpose, people to vision,
people to, uh, customers, peopleto the products the services.
Um, a a lot work early thisthing called experience, which
is now a, a, thing.
And, uh, we still do theexperience.
We think about the employeeexperience, beyond just the
employee experience.
It's at the entire humanexperience as part business
(05:25):
experience.
And we're convinced a hundredpercent if you make workplace
more human, if you create, ifyou work on those relationships,
it will affect the bottom linepositively.
It's hard people believe thatI've shown people data and
research and they just don'tseem wanna it for some reason.
Mm-hmm.
But, uh, But, it um, impacts thebottom and it's, but it's very
(05:49):
intangible a lot times, and, so,uh, basically doing is taking
the work I've done for 30 yearsand, helping others that same
work, so Yeah.
are working companies to helpthem bring a human experience
into the workforce with anemphasis relationships, over.
(06:11):
movement of things we, alwaysstart with the business.
start what you Mm-hmm.
And then do you create anenvironment a human environment
achieve not just an environment,because a lot of times it's not
a human environment.
It's like, gonna stress ourpeople out or we're gonna, you
give them rewards punishmentsand of that.
But it's actually saying canachieve that in a different way.
(06:33):
Right.
And leaders think in verydifferent way.
Yeah.
Leslie (06:36):
So, that, that's one reason why we wanted you on the
show is because you are takingan unconventional approach
Josh (06:46):
mm-hmm.
To helping businesses succeed.
And doing that, it's alsohelping humans succeed in the
business.
Yeah.
And,
Leslie (06:54):
and one very human is purpose.
Mm-hmm.
Josh (06:58):
Absolutely.
Leslie (06:59):
And I love to start with exploration of purpose an
individual versus what I wouldlike collective purpose mm-hmm.
Of Of business.
And are those similar?
How are they different?
Well, for me, don't, and peoplemay
Josh (07:20):
disagree, but don't think you can have an individual
purpose without being connectedto people um, but think purpose
is always collective in somesense.
necessarily that has the samebut that your purpose is somehow
to others.
And, so, for our work actuallyis one of the bases.
(07:43):
purpose, values, meaning, and,vision um, those four things
really sort of the actually, Idon't like to use it as as a
noun.
I to use it as a verb.
IMG_6281 (07:55):
I, I, I, we
POD00058 (07:57):
get to this later, but the the, the, idea of nouns,
like vision statements and, youknow, purpose statements.
They're
IMG_6281 (08:04):
dead,
POD00058 (08:06):
but itself is not dead.
Right?
It's living, It's dynamic.
And so as soon as you turn itinto a noun, same thing with
vision.
Here's our vision statement.
Well, that's not
IMG_6281 (08:16):
living but it's
POD00058 (08:19):
evolving, constantly living thing.
And so I like to think about itas purposing visioning, you
know, those as a verb Mm-hmm.
Because it's constantly going.
So your individual purposingtakes place within a collective
purposing, right.
And they should inform eachother and they should connect
with each other.
And they shouldn't necessarilythe same.
(08:41):
Because if, if you say, well,your purpose has to be the same
as our organizational purposeidentically in terms of what we
think it is, you're actuallychanging somebody's humanity
because everyone is different.
a matter of making it completelydifferent, it's making
Josh (08:58):
is it meaningful so that collectively you can out purpose
together by putting piecestogether.
So, so there is an sense thatyou find own unique meaning to
it.
But your own unique meaning,
POD00058 (09:16):
isn't isolated on its own.
part of a
Josh (09:19):
larger Wave wave or purpose.
And it's wave that pushing sothat's kind of how I look But
like, you know,
IMG_6281 (09:29):
um, I think about my purpose
POD00058 (09:30):
making the workplace more human.
It's not because of
IMG_6281 (09:33):
me,
POD00058 (09:34):
because
IMG_6281 (09:34):
of others.
Right.
It's how
POD00058 (09:35):
does it affect others.
How does it affect all of us insome way?
Yeah.
And, and the idea is that it hasto transcend if it's just
isolated to you,
IMG_6281 (09:45):
it's not transcending
POD00058 (09:47):
anything.
It's not transcending theorganization, it's, it's it's
not high enough.
To me, the purpose is, is kindof the highest level.
Mm-hmm.
And if it's
Josh (09:55):
the then needs to be
POD00058 (09:58):
it's affecting the entire entangled world.
Mm-hmm.
In some way.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
IMG_6281 (10:03):
it sounds, you know, kind of
POD00058 (10:04):
lofty.
I mean, purposes always
IMG_6281 (10:05):
sound very lofty and kind of,
POD00058 (10:07):
you know, as I say, miss
IMG_6281 (10:08):
America ish, you know, and they they
POD00058 (10:10):
ask you, what do you wanna, the world, and
Josh (10:12):
well,
POD00058 (10:12):
yeah.
Josh (10:13):
That's what purpose That's what it should It should It feel
it's so lofty and big it'salmost impossible to achieve.
Leslie (10:20):
Here's what I'm hearing, I'm hearing that purpose in and
of itself an individual and fora business is generally
connected to others as well.
You think you know, ViktorFrankl's work
POD00058 (10:35):
purpose,
Josh (10:36):
He, he, merges purpose with responsibility.
that's kind how it too, is that.
Purpose has within Mm-hmm.
And responsibility is toyourself.
Responsibility is to others.
And, yourself to some
IMG_6281 (10:50):
extent.
take care of yourself, butyou're part of that otherness as
well.
So, so, so
POD00058 (10:56):
if you have a purpose, the purpose has responsibility.
Josh (11:00):
Not accountability, means if you don't it, somebody's
gonna, you know, punish youwhatever.
Mm-hmm.
The responsibility And that Ihave to because I am part of a
collective Or I'm part humanrace.
Right.
Or I'm of
IMG_6281 (11:13):
whatever it is.
Mm-hmm.
You know,
POD00058 (11:15):
and, and it's, it's a, it's a compel compulsion that
You have to do it.
Yeah.
I must
IMG_6281 (11:20):
do So I
Leslie (11:21):
think thing that I'm getting tripped up on though Is
for a company, though, acompany, has purpose, right?
Yeah.
Um, But for the individual,their purpose.
And in this case, it's company'spurpose.
And their
IMG_6281 (11:36):
hope
Leslie (11:37):
is to get all the
IMG_6281 (11:39):
employees aligned with Right?
Josh (11:44):
Yes.
But aligned doesn't Mm-hmm.
Align means that the energies
POD00058 (11:49):
are working in the same So let you know pur
purposes in general.
I
IMG_6281 (11:56):
mean, if I'm advising
POD00058 (11:57):
I'm making a purpose.
It should
IMG_6281 (11:58):
be pretty general,
POD00058 (12:01):
you know?
IMG_6281 (12:02):
Um, like Steve Jobs, I wanna put
POD00058 (12:05):
a ding in the universe.
Josh (12:06):
Um, putting a ding universe pretty general.
Um, you, you look that and sayalmost everybody find some their
purpose It's so big and it's solofty and it's so
IMG_6281 (12:22):
general.
Josh (12:23):
That people can say, I'm contributing to ding in the
universe.
IMG_6281 (12:27):
by the way I
POD00058 (12:27):
answer phones.
I'm
IMG_6281 (12:29):
contributing to that ding in the
POD00058 (12:30):
by the way that I am talking and
IMG_6281 (12:33):
I care about
POD00058 (12:35):
I'm contributing to
IMG_6281 (12:36):
that by, and, and each person's
POD00058 (12:39):
purpose could
IMG_6281 (12:40):
be contained within that.
POD00058 (12:42):
Mm-hmm.
You know, my purpose is
IMG_6281 (12:43):
to
POD00058 (12:44):
treat people with dignity and respect.
My purpose is to people in someway to lead a
IMG_6281 (12:50):
better life, you know, whatever that is,
Josh (12:52):
that's general as well.
Mm-hmm.
And it can usually fit intosomething, they have to be, you
have to enable people to findtheir purpose within the context
of
POD00058 (13:02):
corporate purpose.
to say, well, that doesn't countbecause that you're not saying
exactly what we say.
Right.
Well then you've limited yourpurpose to
IMG_6281 (13:11):
a
POD00058 (13:13):
formula.
Mm-hmm.
It's not a formula.
It's an emotional state.
Its, its a state of
Josh (13:18):
being.
And so, so it's, it's,alignment, but not in the sense
of we're make everybody thesame.
Right.
It's alignment in the senseeveryone's energy comes from
purpose, individual, andcollective is contributing to
the same stream same wave movingforward.
if it's going oppositedirection, got problem.
(13:39):
Right, it's crushing the waveand it's okay, now we have an
POD00058 (13:42):
issue.
Mm-hmm.
Now we
Josh (13:43):
gotta about that.
Okay.
So company a purpose.
Individuals have their purpose,and the goal is to help
individuals see how purposeconnects to the company's
purpose.
Yeah.
kind what I, I
IMG_6281 (13:58):
would call
Josh (13:59):
there some organizations seen where believe in the values
the same way you to believe inpurpose.
And call the Stepford companies.
I don't if you remember themovie, Wise.
Yeah.
But they were
IMG_6281 (14:08):
all the
POD00058 (14:08):
uhhuh, and they had to act the
IMG_6281 (14:10):
the same.
And it's like,
Josh (14:11):
that's not healthy.
Right.
It's not healthy organizationbecause leads to no evolution.
It leads to no change.
leads to no forward movement.
POD00058 (14:23):
It's a
IMG_6281 (14:23):
a dead organization.
POD00058 (14:25):
So, So, that's, that's, that's
IMG_6281 (14:27):
what we mean by
POD00058 (14:28):
A lot of people think alignment is lockstep.
Right.
It's not lockstep.
Yeah.
about alignment of energy.
If you think, I, I like to thinkin terms of energy, human
energies.
Josh (14:38):
But
POD00058 (14:38):
but if you think about it, you know, people are putting
energy into their work, and youcan tell when there's positive
energy right?
Oh yeah.
You can walk in and feel in aplace.
You can't measure it, you can'treally describe it and identify
it, but it's there.
So if you think about it asenergy and if they, the human
energy is moving in a positivedirection to, to allow things to
Josh (14:58):
happen, then there, then meanings and purposes and all
those are aligned, right?
I, all this company has purpose,individuals have a and it's
about making the energy alignedso that those are connected and
moving in the same direction.
(15:21):
But when I look out intocorporate America, it doesn't
feel like that's what happens.
Leslie (15:30):
Why is
Josh (15:31):
that?
Well, a good that's what I'mtrying to But, um,
POD00058 (15:36):
Just
IMG_6281 (15:36):
off the top
POD00058 (15:37):
my head, I think there are a couple
IMG_6281 (15:38):
reasons.
POD00058 (15:40):
One is
Josh (15:42):
that
POD00058 (15:43):
it's not an aligned
IMG_6281 (15:47):
world We live in a world
POD00058 (15:49):
contradictions, you know, and so thinking about
energies, there, there are,there, are opposite, you know,
young, the psychologists wouldtalk about opposite energies
that are contained within us andopposite energies that are
contained within society.
Those aren't necessarily badthings, but we look
Josh (16:04):
at bad
POD00058 (16:05):
because they conflict.
Mm-hmm.
We don't want conflict becausethat doesn't, that's not good.
But in reality, conflict issomething, if handled properly,
is what moves things forward.
It also leads to different viewsof the world that need to be
looked at because we
Josh (16:20):
we're
POD00058 (16:21):
of limited in of the world.
And I think this is part, youknow, part of the
Josh (16:25):
the other challenge is we, we,
POD00058 (16:28):
have certain perspectives that we can take
that we're comfortable with andwe think that that's complete
Josh (16:34):
truth.
But in reality there aremultiple perspectives that are
IMG_6281 (16:38):
equally
Josh (16:39):
true and you put all together like a jigsaw puzzle to
really close to some kind of alot of it is and a lot of it
stuff that's confusing
POD00058 (16:51):
So I think what we try to do is we oversimplify things
too much.
try to limit them to this is howit's got to be because we want
the recipe, we want thechecklist, we want the numbers,
we well, unfortunately the worlddoesn't work that way.
We think it does because we'vebeen taught through our physics
classes that you can calculate
Josh (17:13):
how
POD00058 (17:13):
the world works
Josh (17:14):
in numbers and everything is completely calculable because
what Galileo and Newton
IMG_6281 (17:20):
But what quantum physics our new physics is
showing is
POD00058 (17:23):
that's not reality.
That's an And so
IMG_6281 (17:28):
we've been
POD00058 (17:29):
to some extent, to limit our thinking to small
buckets and, and ways ofthinking that are, that
IMG_6281 (17:34):
lock us And when,
POD00058 (17:36):
they lock us in, then we're always fighting the energy
instead of
IMG_6281 (17:40):
trying to Be in the energy.
POD00058 (17:43):
About a surfing
Josh (17:44):
and a wave.
You know, if fight the wave
POD00058 (17:46):
and you try and conform it to what you want it
to be, you ain't gonna have agood ride.
IMG_6281 (17:51):
But if you are become one with the
POD00058 (17:53):
if surf the wave, if you actually go with
IMG_6281 (17:56):
the wave and, and, and you
POD00058 (17:58):
in all of its sort of unpredictable nature, then
you're gonna
IMG_6281 (18:01):
get a good ride.
Hmm.
POD00058 (18:03):
this is the same thing.
I think what we try to forcethings into what we think they
should be when they're not thatway.
And then we run into challengesand conflicts
Josh (18:14):
that we don't solve because don't want to deal those
POD00058 (18:18):
Mm-hmm.
Because they
Josh (18:19):
fit our simplistic model of the world.
And I think when talking aboutpurpose and meaning you know,
all these big human beings ingeneral, talking about
complexity.
talking about very things.
Each person unique, has theirown story, has, years of and
history and everything else, andwe just dismiss as though
(18:41):
doesn't exist and say, well,you're a
IMG_6281 (18:43):
a cog in the wheel or in the machine.
That
POD00058 (18:47):
type of thinking limits our ability to actually
employ this
Josh (18:53):
stuff.
Mm-hmm.
IMG_6281 (18:54):
We
Josh (18:54):
like to be you know, planned and solid and
everything's predictable.
Mm-hmm.
And Mm-hmm.
That's the beauty.
It's also challenge.
My take.
Yeah.
And we base our work is, how doyou actually.
Embrace that complexity.
Ride the wave.
How do you ride How do you emthe complexity?
(19:15):
How do you you entertaindifferent thing, different
points of different waysthinking, different ways looking
at world, and actually not lookit a but look at it as
opportunity.
POD00058 (19:25):
Right.
Leslie (19:27):
So I've got two question here because I, I get I, get.
is that the reason why it's notshowing up is because we tend to
fight instead of riding the wavehow do you see purpose up in the
workforce today?
Then how should purpose show upin the workforce?
Yeah.
(19:47):
Well think of
Josh (19:48):
of all, I it's had a which is really good.
Okay.
I people finally
IMG_6281 (19:56):
that purpose is important
POD00058 (19:57):
not only in their lives but in the
IMG_6281 (19:59):
workplace as well.
POD00058 (20:00):
do you, but that's
IMG_6281 (20:01):
a good thing.
Lemme ask the question
Leslie (20:02):
though.
Is the resurgence because
IMG_6281 (20:07):
of profit
POD00058 (20:11):
or like actual belief?
Like what's motivating
IMG_6281 (20:15):
The the on good question.
I, you know, I think
Josh (20:23):
kind of my take on'cause been behind few these ideas that
start off, with kind of.
A grander idea.
And unfortunately happens is a alot of times it gets
IMG_6281 (20:34):
commoditized
POD00058 (20:36):
And, I think that that's sort of a natural pathway
that we've had with a lot ofideas.
Um, purpose potentially
IMG_6281 (20:43):
could go down that road
POD00058 (20:44):
of, okay, now it just becomes another line in your, in
your organization that you justtell people and then it sits on
the shelf
Josh (20:51):
and you you put it
POD00058 (20:53):
on people's performance plans and then you
measure it and then,
IMG_6281 (20:56):
you know, that's not
POD00058 (20:58):
what it is.
Right.
But that feels comfortablebecause that's the way
IMG_6281 (21:00):
we've done this all
POD00058 (21:01):
time.
Right.
With these things.
so.
IMG_6281 (21:03):
So, the good news is it
POD00058 (21:06):
re has come back
IMG_6281 (21:09):
with
POD00058 (21:10):
some people saying, you know, like you and some
other people saying
IMG_6281 (21:15):
that.
Josh (21:16):
True purpose.
The idea of really findingpurpose that that pervades the
individual the organization isimportant.
And, and, and yes, it, it willaffect the money side, which is
fine.
great.
I think that's important.
Um,
POD00058 (21:34):
but if it just becomes a means to an end
IMG_6281 (21:37):
rather than part
POD00058 (21:38):
the end in itself, which is the human being, is the
end in,
IMG_6281 (21:41):
in itself
POD00058 (21:42):
Okay.
If it just becomes another meansto an end, then it's losing its
luster.
Mm-hmm.
And that's a
IMG_6281 (21:47):
a lot of times what I've seen.
So the
Josh (21:51):
good news is it's, it's resurfacing, Um, but
POD00058 (21:54):
I think there's still potential and for example,
IMG_6281 (21:57):
example, with employee experiences, has happened
POD00058 (22:00):
and starting to happen.
You know, the was a veryrevolutionary
IMG_6281 (22:04):
idea.
POD00058 (22:04):
It was how do you co-design the workplace with
employees?
How do you view
Josh (22:09):
human as a super set of employee experience
IMG_6281 (22:12):
to allow
Josh (22:13):
the human part of it to actually, you bring in emotions
and feelings and and all kindsof How you, make some of these
intangible things tangible insome way so could design them
together?
And, you know, some use it asbring your dog to and, you know,
put a bar that and now a greatemployee experience.
(22:35):
well great, but that's notreally the so it does happen the
time.
Mm-hmm.
Um.
the, um, unfortunately you
IMG_6281 (22:45):
you don't get the, payback Same thing with purpose.
POD00058 (22:49):
I think if it becomes another corporate line where you
just put it on the wall and putit on the mugs and say,
IMG_6281 (22:54):
okay, here's our purpose.
Josh (22:56):
Yay raw us, and then we're gonna have little parties with
purpose, parties, and we'regonna talk about purpose.
And just gonna have our purpose.
And your purpose doesn't matterlong as it's our purpose, you're
not gonna
IMG_6281 (23:07):
get mm-hmm.
What really it's And so
POD00058 (23:11):
think, so I think, there's a potential point and,
and the the question is, which
IMG_6281 (23:14):
direction is it gonna go?
Mm-hmm.
and
POD00058 (23:16):
not only which direction is it
IMG_6281 (23:17):
gonna go collectively
POD00058 (23:18):
terms of everybody, but individually, which
organizations are gonna reallylatch onto it and say, this
really is important and it istransformational of the
workplace.
And it is something that theydon't teach in business schools.
Yeah.
Josh (23:30):
Yeah.
Or it's gonna be some that saynot gonna it that way and
choice.
And hopefully is that that theones that latch on some research
shows this, when you latch ontopurpose, it does change
perceptions of the organization.
It does change how,
IMG_6281 (23:48):
you know, how
POD00058 (23:49):
employees retention and all those
IMG_6281 (23:51):
kinds of things.
Mm-hmm.
POD00058 (23:52):
the ones that don't
IMG_6281 (23:53):
may
POD00058 (23:54):
less of an attractive employer and may do less
business.
Yeah.
And then it'll prove
Josh (23:59):
itself.
the ones that do
Leslie (24:01):
mm-hmm.
We know they and feel different.
Yeah.
We can feel the But what do theydo to have, to be purposing in
their business?
Yeah.
Josh (24:15):
Um, well
POD00058 (24:16):
think part of it is, is
IMG_6281 (24:20):
dialoguing.
So, so,
POD00058 (24:22):
um, we
IMG_6281 (24:25):
so our, our, we have a model
POD00058 (24:26):
we use for our work, and it's called the Clear It's
the LEAR
Josh (24:32):
and.
basis is purpose, vision,values, and, Okay.
those kind of four the basis ofthe And then builds up to, it
actually is backwards.
The, Yeah.
The, the, The, and the are atthe bottom and builds to the C
the top.
And the C at the top isco-designing.
Okay?
So idea that you're co-designingthe workplace.
(24:54):
get there, you have to have a,an organization of dialogue And
the dialogue comes throughlistening and learning, which L.
empathy, which is the E anddialogue is not about, um,
telling what your ideas tellingpeople what your purpose is and
saying, here's your purpose.
Now, you tell us your purpose isin line that?
POD00058 (25:16):
make sure
IMG_6281 (25:16):
you're all aligned.
POD00058 (25:18):
Dialogue is actually coming to the table with very
open points
IMG_6281 (25:22):
of view
Josh (25:22):
and being able exchange those and see what comes out of
So part of it is having anorganization of dialogue live
their
IMG_6281 (25:31):
their
Josh (25:31):
purpose and allows just purpose being human being.
Mm-hmm.
To, to share different ideas,to, to innovate, to create all
of those aspects being a humanbeing.
To enable that To happen, youhave the A the R, is adapt and
relate, which is, which are theenablers of So the idea how do
you a community within theorganization, community feeling,
(25:55):
and not, not even just acommunity, feeling community
itself.
And community purpose,purpose-driven, right?
Entity.
we, we we love the community,but we really want put in the
work to get And, um, communityis, it has transcendent purpose.
By definition, definition has atranscendent if you don't have
(26:16):
transcendent purpose as as agroup, you're you can't be
community.
So in some sense, what they dothey create an environment in
community thrives.
IMG_6281 (26:25):
of and community is responsibility, care for others,
POD00058 (26:31):
having some transcendent purpose, um, um,
having a moral obligation toeach
IMG_6281 (26:37):
other.
That is there, not because
POD00058 (26:40):
getting rewarded and punished, but because you just
have to mm-hmm.
IMG_6281 (26:43):
mm-hmm.
Because you're part of it.
So,
POD00058 (26:46):
the danger is when you segment out,
IMG_6281 (26:48):
oh, we're gonna now do purpose
Josh (26:49):
work
IMG_6281 (26:51):
and, and not
POD00058 (26:52):
at it in the of the life
IMG_6281 (26:54):
in the organization.
Mm-hmm.
Josh (26:56):
So it's not workshop and you're done.
Right.
It's about do you actually ashuman beings and integrated
with.
Caring vision and values and thegoals and
POD00058 (27:09):
they have to all be
IMG_6281 (27:10):
integrated.
POD00058 (27:11):
So it's a matter of, an environment where it's
integrated.
It's just part and parcel ofwhat you do.
Right.
IMG_6281 (27:18):
And it's hard to say,
POD00058 (27:19):
well, you implement this and you implement that, and
you just put this in place andthat in place because it's not
that's life works.
Mm-hmm.
You know, life is not acompartmentalized.
thing
Josh (27:30):
of, exact measures and exact actions and everything
else.
It's a flow.
And so I think the, thecompanies do it, do do work
where they have a lot of aboutpurpose, individual purpose,
and, and purpose.
and, what does mean?
they point some of those thingsout say, Hey, that was really
living our purpose all that.
(27:50):
But if it just becomesmechanical process and doesn't
become embedded just in therelationships of organization,
then you're minimizing itspossibilities.
Yeah.
So how you do that?
Leslie (28:06):
How you do it?
How do you, so I am hearing itallows room for dialogue.
And dialogue comes with empathy.
comes from being open and caringand all these things, in my I'm
thinking comes with time.
It adds time.
(28:28):
then I'm imagining an executiveteam coming together weekly,
monthly, and trying to envisionwhat does that look like for
company that's living purposeand role modeling the ways
Josh (28:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
there's, there's It's differentway of and that's part of the
challenge.
Because to some power bemediated, you and we have all
power structures that build inorganizations.
And not saying power is bad, butit's saying it has to in some
Other have to feel like theypower.
(29:08):
You You can't power, purpose
POD00058 (29:09):
without Some kind of you know, self power or
empowerment Mm-hmm.
How are you gonna feel
IMG_6281 (29:16):
purpose, purposeful?
POD00058 (29:17):
I.
IMG_6281 (29:18):
if you have
POD00058 (29:19):
no power at all?
Right.
Josh (29:20):
So the question is, is how you actually create an
environment that's just thispower we're tell you and do, you
know, and instruct you what doand you're just gonna cause
that's
IMG_6281 (29:33):
not gonna allow people to free up purpose.
POD00058 (29:36):
So, So, you know, part of it has to do with mediating
power.
Part of it has to
Josh (29:41):
do with constant dialogue and talking about who you a
being, just what you're but whowho you are you stand human
being in the in the, workplace.
And that's.
That's part being a human being.
part of it is, um, linking yourbusiness to those purposes.
(30:03):
Why are you doing what you'redoing?
You You and not I, I'm stillconvinced that there is a soul
for being.
And there's also a soul for acompany, it's not in a religious
sense, but in a sense there is
IMG_6281 (30:16):
a,
Josh (30:16):
there is
IMG_6281 (30:17):
a,
POD00058 (30:18):
some kind of a, a defining characteristic of who
they are.
That started at the beginning.
There was a reason they started.
It's not just for money, It'sit's almost
IMG_6281 (30:28):
almost never for It's
POD00058 (30:30):
there's something
IMG_6281 (30:31):
there at the beginning,
POD00058 (30:32):
And a lot of times what happens is it gets lost
because you're you're doing,you're wrapped up in all your
business stuff and everythingelse, but that soul is still
there.
It's just covered with so muchgook and dirt and garbage that
you can't get to it.
And so part of the purpose workis getting back to, what was it
that was the energy that started
IMG_6281 (30:52):
this place, and then allowing people
POD00058 (30:54):
participate in that energy.
IMG_6281 (30:56):
So,
Josh (30:57):
you know, those are some of the things you you You to re
recover that soul.
You have to and, and, and bringinto it so that they
IMG_6281 (31:07):
attach to it.
POD00058 (31:09):
What's hard
Josh (31:09):
right is organizations are somewhat temporary spaces, you
know, and, and it it does taketime.
And so,
POD00058 (31:18):
you know, the, I had one of my students come to me
and say.
Um, so is it normal for peopleto just stay at a job two or
three years and then move on?
Because that's what it seemslike everyone
Josh (31:28):
does.
And And I said, well, that'sbecome the new right?
Because for a couple reasons.
One is you make more money doingthat because you raise.
other is that there isn't a hugeamount of of loyalty right
Mm-hmm.
Because there's not a a lot ofloyalty
POD00058 (31:40):
coming from the companies to the employees
IMG_6281 (31:42):
either.
Mm-hmm.
POD00058 (31:43):
It's a two-way say, well, you
IMG_6281 (31:45):
know, we're gonna let 10,000 people go, that helps the
bottom, you
POD00058 (31:49):
the short term bottom line.
But it also says, we're notgonna be loyal to you, but
IMG_6281 (31:54):
we want, you know,
POD00058 (31:55):
we want you to be loyal back to us.
Right.
Well, how how can you have thatkind of loyalty you don't know
whether they're just gonna letyou go?
Mm-hmm.
So to, to do this and to reallylive purpose
Josh (32:07):
in some sense, you have to revisit idea of loyalty and to
each And what mean to be anemployee what does mean to be,
uh, an organization together?
which again, been challenged andit's, it's, you it's different
Um, so, so, you know, does a lotof time, but without having time
(32:27):
to to grow nurture it, it kindof take over.
you know, the, know, and, andgrow out, know,
IMG_6281 (32:36):
that grow out that soul or whatever it is, then
it's
POD00058 (32:40):
to do.
Right.
It's hard to do.
Yeah.
I mean, this is not easy stuff.
This is, it's not for the fainthearted, that's for sure.
I mean,
IMG_6281 (32:47):
this is this is not easy.
It's not
Leslie (32:50):
It's not easy.
Well, as were, as about the soulof the business, I found myself
drawing parallel to season one.
So season one was all aboutindividuals pursuing their
purpose.
Mm-hmm.
And one the things that came outas a theme was that of our
(33:12):
conditioning Through childhoodand into adulthood it's, it's
conditioning us to do the thingswe're supposed to do.
Right.
And as you were talking aboutthe, soul and over time how it
loses itself, It's like, wow,that happens, you know, for
(33:32):
individuals too, there's thisphase like, you're supposed to
do this, you're supposed to growby 10% every year.
You're supposed to, all supposedthings.
Yeah.
These things that happens inbusiness too.
Oh, And that, that also causesthe soul of business to Yeah.
Get shadowed.
Yeah.
I mean, I I, always ask thequestion is, wrong having a
(33:55):
business
Josh (33:56):
that at the rate inflation little beyond inflation and
gives hundred people great life?
Mm-hmm.
What's wrong with that?
There's
IMG_6281 (34:05):
nothing
Josh (34:05):
wrong
IMG_6281 (34:05):
with it.
Why does
POD00058 (34:06):
have to, everything have to be a
Josh (34:08):
a Walmart or you know, massive empire.
Why can't just be that is good?
And turns to be something great,lose initial kind of, just doing
this.
because we care about it.
Right.
and And, yeah.
think it happens to people
IMG_6281 (34:27):
and it happens in some organizations, you know?
Mm-hmm.
POD00058 (34:29):
I, I, always think
IMG_6281 (34:30):
that
POD00058 (34:31):
I, I like the idea
IMG_6281 (34:32):
that your
POD00058 (34:32):
purpose is being spoken to you and you need
IMG_6281 (34:37):
What are you being asked?
Mm-hmm.
Uh, what is it, what is lifeasking
POD00058 (34:41):
of you?
Right.
That's the purpose.
Yeah.
what're what you
Josh (34:46):
think, what Is being asked.
And that's the responsibilityyou have life.
And has You know,
POD00058 (34:53):
and, each person
Josh (34:54):
is bringing some purpose.
They may not know what it ityet, but it's there.
But is so you talked about, andI was, I thinking
Leslie (35:05):
talking about purpose.
When you say it's calling you,it's speaking you what, know,
life is asking you now, is thatalso true a a business?
I
Josh (35:16):
in some sense it is.
Okay.
I think, I think there's, yeah.
I think it's when get a fewpeople hear similar kind of
voice mm-hmm.
Saying why, what do we to, whydo we need to exist
POD00058 (35:27):
as an
IMG_6281 (35:28):
organization?
You know, and, and there there
POD00058 (35:31):
be some kind of a
IMG_6281 (35:32):
kind of a calling behind it in some sense.
Right.
Again, I'm not
Josh (35:35):
trying to be about it.
Yeah.
but but, but I think there thereis some sense calling that
organization should to say.
we're doing this this becauseneed to, there's something
missing this world that
POD00058 (35:49):
need to fill.
IMG_6281 (35:50):
Now hopefully
Josh (35:51):
it's got an ethical purpose, it's got some good
purpose and so again, they gotogether, it's a, I an either
or.
I I think both And they other.
They're reciprocal and they, andI think reciprocal.
think it's constantly moving.
You so as you get new employees,that purpose is feeding forth.
'cause their purpose purposethat they've grown their
(36:14):
connections
IMG_6281 (36:15):
is now feeding into the company, and the company
POD00058 (36:17):
feeding starting to put those
IMG_6281 (36:19):
together and then so on and so on, and so on and so
on.
POD00058 (36:22):
on.
Mm-hmm.
You know, and I think we'redoing that personally as well.
Yeah.
Our purpose is being
IMG_6281 (36:25):
molded
POD00058 (36:26):
our inner, it's being, mine is being molded
IMG_6281 (36:28):
right now in this conversation.
POD00058 (36:29):
Mm-hmm.
You know, that's the way
IMG_6281 (36:31):
I would view every interaction, every relationship
we're having is remolding.
Josh (36:36):
Aspects of we are and what our purpose is.
Mm-hmm.
least if open it.
Leslie (36:40):
So I feel like we're doing parallels between
individual and Yeah.
Yeah.
Company.
So the that came out of seasonone I'll use the word ritual
people that are clear, theirpurpose and they're living on
purpose.
They rituals in their day,daily.
It was daily does that exist in,in companies that live on
(37:05):
purpose?
Is there daily ritual?
Is there ritual around purpose?
POD00058 (37:10):
I, I mean, I
Josh (37:11):
I not a ritual person.
But seen a lot them and I, andI, and to to me, they emerge.
They're not something you Okay.
Put in place.
Okay.
And you say, now we're going do
POD00058 (37:23):
Mm-hmm.
I, I,
IMG_6281 (37:24):
think those happen, but a lot of times they don't.
Work out think
POD00058 (37:28):
they just emerge, that somebody comes up with something
that just
Josh (37:34):
resonates them in some way and
POD00058 (37:36):
do
Josh (37:36):
and somebody and says, I like And then they it.
Mm-hmm.
And
IMG_6281 (37:40):
then somebody else does you know, so I think,
Josh (37:43):
I that, um, I think rituals emerge.
From connection each
POD00058 (37:51):
other.
Okay.
And
IMG_6281 (37:52):
that enterprise
POD00058 (37:52):
they're doing together.
Okay.
And the
IMG_6281 (37:54):
the individual may have some too.
Yeah.
I
POD00058 (37:56):
we, we need to have some sense
IMG_6281 (37:57):
of order in our
POD00058 (37:59):
Think about traditions and things.
You know, sometimes traditionsget in that you have to follow
those traditions or
Josh (38:04):
else, but then it doesn't allow new traditions.
Right.
And
POD00058 (38:08):
growth and all of that kind of stuff.
That something that's natural,something that comes out of
IMG_6281 (38:14):
of the energy
POD00058 (38:15):
purpose or comes out of
IMG_6281 (38:16):
of the or whatever it
POD00058 (38:18):
that just emerges in some way.
Those
Josh (38:20):
are really, really, powerful.
but But, I I lot oforganizations
POD00058 (38:24):
try and institute them and they, and don't do that kind
of fall, fall, flat.
Yeah.
'cause everyone can see
IMG_6281 (38:30):
through it as, oh, this is just another
POD00058 (38:33):
kind of thing.
Even if it's not intended to bethat, it just feels
IMG_6281 (38:37):
that And so
POD00058 (38:38):
I always suggest that
IMG_6281 (38:39):
that leaders look for
POD00058 (38:42):
that are emerging and then
IMG_6281 (38:43):
encourage
POD00058 (38:44):
do those or say, Hey, that was really
IMG_6281 (38:46):
cool.
Josh (38:48):
don't we do that why don't you lead that before
IMG_6281 (38:50):
cause I think that
Josh (38:51):
would be really good.
And of a sudden it
POD00058 (38:54):
doesn't become the leader doing it, it becomes the
employees doing it.
Right.
And
IMG_6281 (38:58):
And that gives it even more
Leslie (38:59):
Yeah.
Well, going back to what earlierabout, individual purpose, what
is life asking Company?
are, what's business asking orthe market of the business and
looking for those.
Mm-hmm.
You know, and
IMG_6281 (39:16):
yeah.
POD00058 (39:16):
Observing
IMG_6281 (39:17):
and seeing
POD00058 (39:19):
know, raising
IMG_6281 (39:20):
Yeah.
POD00058 (39:21):
And, you know,
IMG_6281 (39:21):
know, I
POD00058 (39:22):
if we
IMG_6281 (39:22):
we go back to kind of that idea of the employee
Josh (39:25):
experience the co-design, a lot of times leaders want push
too hard.
They feel they're responsible
POD00058 (39:34):
Setting
IMG_6281 (39:34):
the culture and creating this, and driving this
and all of that.
And really, I mean, our approachis more let the employees
Mm-hmm.
Give them the opportunity to doit because, because
Josh (39:47):
change from the
IMG_6281 (39:48):
the top is
POD00058 (39:49):
than change It's slower from the bottom, it's
much easier because people
Josh (39:56):
resist their own ideas.
So sometimes leaders in theirown
IMG_6281 (40:00):
own way.
By pushing too hard, creatingeverything, forcing the culture,
forcing the artifacts, forcingthe events and all that,
Josh (40:07):
as opposed to allowing the employees to a voice and their
show their and
IMG_6281 (40:14):
their rituals and their
Josh (40:16):
things and and, then say, how leader?
facilitate the of those, or thespread or the nurturing
nurturing which is wholedifferent way leading.
we're taught, you gotta drive.
And I, if I hear drive I'm gonnalike, I've heard too much.
It shouldn't
IMG_6281 (40:32):
be driving so you
Josh (40:34):
you should be nurturing, you should be growing, you
should be looking foropportunities to, to grow drive
things.
driving means you're it down.
And, and people resist that.
They They don't So if you tocreate a, you purpose-based
culture, want to emerge frompeople's Right.
And feelings Let them have avoice their purpose And why fits
(40:58):
in, facilitate conversations andallow come their own rituals and
and their and their own, uh, youknow, use their own energy and
then blend into the organizationas is just
IMG_6281 (41:09):
another
POD00058 (41:10):
part of the organization.
Right.
You the
Josh (41:13):
the is going determine purpose, tell purpose is, then
we're gonna it on your plan, andthen each year gonna, tell us
how you lived your purpose.
well, don't you to do that, nowit's purpose anymore.
Right.
It's an an Mm-hmm.
POD00058 (41:29):
not
Josh (41:29):
really, there's there's no, energy to
POD00058 (41:33):
at
IMG_6281 (41:33):
at all
POD00058 (41:33):
anymore.
Yeah.
It's a mechanical
IMG_6281 (41:35):
process
POD00058 (41:36):
I
IMG_6281 (41:36):
I can't help but sit here and that
Leslie (41:40):
I don't think I have ever been asked my purpose at
work.
Oh, really?
Have you?
That's when I out with, with, tothe
Josh (41:53):
more human.
That the only time.
that one time you were asked?
The one time Okay.
Now I did.
boss
POD00058 (42:01):
a colleague or?
No, it was a colleague.
Now, I
IMG_6281 (42:03):
I did work, work with an organization where that
Josh (42:06):
did one of the key elements that, that we worked
was actually having
POD00058 (42:13):
president of
IMG_6281 (42:13):
of the
POD00058 (42:13):
go to each
IMG_6281 (42:14):
employee
POD00058 (42:16):
and ask them what their purpose was.
Yeah.
And
Josh (42:18):
to his credit, he.
Basically said, want you findyour purpose and if can't find
purpose here, don't waste yourtime.
Go find Right.
Which is Yeah, It's brilliant.
I love that because just the actof him asking mm-hmm.
(42:40):
tells me
Leslie (42:41):
I'm allowed to have my own purpose Yes.
I'm expected to.
He wants me to.
Yes.
and, and, he wants to inalignment.
IMG_6281 (42:52):
With
POD00058 (42:53):
business.
Yeah.
Now, what was also brilliant is
IMG_6281 (42:55):
that
POD00058 (42:55):
the employees
IMG_6281 (42:56):
actually created the purpose
POD00058 (42:57):
organization.
the employees created all the,created the purpose and fed it
up to the leaders.
Josh (43:03):
And they also created the the values for But executives
POD00058 (43:08):
ask them,
Josh (43:09):
but what's your purpose in, in.
Conjunction with that, uh,corporate do in it?
Mm-hmm.
What's important to you?
And that the, the conversation.
And became kind of, uh, part andparcel organization.
But it was a different of ofoperating.
POD00058 (43:29):
You know, and
Josh (43:30):
and it took
POD00058 (43:30):
time,
Josh (43:30):
you know, for an for An executive go to employee.
Absolutely.
Take some Yeah.
But it, I it had huge on people.
and said, you know, you're givenpermission, right.
Because lot people don't thingsdo don't do organizations cause
they don't have
POD00058 (43:47):
mm-hmm.
And you
IMG_6281 (43:48):
you need somebody to say, no,
POD00058 (43:50):
can, you're That's okay.
Right.
IMG_6281 (43:53):
And so a lot of,
POD00058 (43:54):
a
IMG_6281 (43:54):
a lot of, these kinds of
POD00058 (43:56):
things, values,
IMG_6281 (43:56):
purpose,
POD00058 (43:57):
uh, individual kind of exploration of those things.
Being a caring about others,having empathy, a lot of it is
permission based.
Mm-hmm.
Basically give peoplepermission.
Well, that's what I was justpeople thinking of permiss in
terms of
Leslie (44:11):
what can people do.
people permission.
give, give,'em'em Allow them toexplore.
Yes.
Yeah.
Ask the question.
But it can't one and doneeither.
Because over time, the soul ofthe company gets buried down
there.
Absolutely.
And it is a little scary because
Josh (44:31):
you don't know what
POD00058 (44:34):
may happen.
IMG_6281 (44:35):
Right.
POD00058 (44:35):
But in the workplace, we've come to this point where
we're sort
IMG_6281 (44:38):
of,
POD00058 (44:40):
You can't make mistakes.
You always have to be buttonedup.
You
IMG_6281 (44:43):
always have to show, you know, everything.
POD00058 (44:44):
it's like, and especially leaders
IMG_6281 (44:47):
are, are,
POD00058 (44:47):
are, think that that's how And I, if I
IMG_6281 (44:50):
I, ask for gonna show that I'm not now,
POD00058 (44:54):
it's actually that you're being a great leader
because you're saying, I don'thave the capability of doing
this.
I'm gonna get people who reallyknow what they're doing.
Right.
That's a good
IMG_6281 (45:01):
leader.
POD00058 (45:02):
Um, anything else on the topic of purpose in the
workplace?
Gosh, what else?
What other questions do youhave?
I don't know.
IMG_6281 (45:09):
We, we talked
POD00058 (45:10):
a lot of stuff.
The main thing I'm hearing is
IMG_6281 (45:14):
that
POD00058 (45:15):
as as human beings, we're messy, iss not the right
word, but we're justunstructured.
It's unformed, it's It's fluid.
There's no perfection inhumanity and in business.
Humans exist in business too.
And so creating a space
IMG_6281 (45:38):
in business where
POD00058 (45:40):
can be humans, and
IMG_6281 (45:42):
and that means
POD00058 (45:43):
have dialogue, space for a space for connection, a
space for empathy, care,concern, and permission to do
so.
Yeah.
And in doing that and connectedto the company's purpose, why it
IMG_6281 (46:01):
exists.
Mm-hmm.
POD00058 (46:02):
We all can work together to move in the right
direction.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because we're operating as human
IMG_6281 (46:10):
beings Yeah.
POD00058 (46:12):
Yeah.
And add onto what you're saying
IMG_6281 (46:15):
is we're not just messy.
we're weird combinations of Soon the one hand, we're ordered,
but
POD00058 (46:21):
the other hand we're chaotic.
on we're, we love to rip thingsapart and, and you know, try and
understand how they And on theother hand, we have to put
things back together to
IMG_6281 (46:31):
understand contradictions, what they mean.
POD00058 (46:33):
We get, all these contradictions that are part of
us
IMG_6281 (46:37):
and what,
POD00058 (46:37):
what we do is we try and limit ourselves to one of
'em, because it feels safe.
As opposed to saying, you know
IMG_6281 (46:43):
know what?
POD00058 (46:44):
Let's, I use both sides.
IMG_6281 (46:46):
Let's try and
POD00058 (46:47):
both sides
IMG_6281 (46:47):
and, and they're gonna be contradictions.
But you know what, you see awhole different world.
You see things in a wholedifferent way.
But it's, it's being able to, torecognize that these things
coexist and we have to figureout how to deal with instead of
how to get rid of them.
But to some extent we're tryingto convince ourselves to
oversimplify because then it'sjust easy and, but easy is not
(47:13):
the way to reality.
Right.
You know, the reality is, is adifficult road.
Right.
It's a hard road.
Yeah.
And, um, but, but it's a joyfulroad.
And it's a road that when youkind of are on the path and all
this is on the path I mean,purpose is a path, it's a
journey.
And I think if we think of itthat way, then all of a sudden
things change in terms of how weapproach the world, how we see
(47:35):
the world, how we approachrelationships.
Mm-hmm.
Friends, everything changes.
Mm-hmm.
You know, in some way.
Yeah.
And you can see things in verydifferent ways.
Yes.
Anything left unsaid?
I don't, I don't think so.
For now.
For now.
Yeah.
How about that?
Yeah.
Chapter one.
(47:57):
Oh.
Well, thank you Josh for beingon Purpose project.
Thank you.
It was really enjoyable.
Driving home through ruralIndiana.
After dropping my daughter offat college, I couldn't help but
notice the small businessesalong the way.
Some of those small businesseslooked alive.
They looked vibrant, they hadenergy, they looked cared for.
(48:21):
And others seemed worn down likethey had been left behind, and
then it hit me.
This is what happens when thesoul of a business is taken care
of or not taken care of.
When purpose isn't nurtured in abusiness, it becomes an
(48:42):
afterthought instead of aguiding force, and the business
loses its vitality.
The same thing happens for us asindividuals.
Purpose is a way of living.
It's not a goal, it's not adestiny.
It is our being.
And this not only applies to usas individuals, this applies to
(49:06):
business as well.
Businesses must be intentionalto keep their purpose alive.
So as you think about your work,your company, and your
leadership, what practices areyou creating to keep the
business purpose alive?
How are you taking care of thesoul of the business?
(49:30):
Josh, thank you for being onPurpose Project, and thanks to
all of you for tuning in.
Leslie (49:41):
Purpose Project is brought to you for education and
for entertainment purposes.
This podcast is not intended toreplace the advice that you
would receive from a licensedtherapist or doctor or any other
qualified professional.
What gives a business its soul?
It's not just the product or thenumbers or the brand, it's the
people, the energy, and thedeeper purpose that fuels the
business.
Hi, my name is Leslie Pagel andwelcome to Purpose Project.
In this episode, I sit down withJosh Plaskoff.
(00:26):
Josh is a leader in employeeengagement and a professor of
leadership at Purdue University.
In this episode, we explore whattruly brings a business to life.
Together we discuss whyengagement isn't just about
checking the box and how themost successful companies don't
(00:47):
just talk about purpose, theylive it.
Let's take a listen.
Leslie (00:52):
Josh, thank you for coming and being on Purpose
Project.
I'm looking forward toconversation.
Thanks, It's to be here.
I'm I'm, really looking too.
I imagine we going to go all theplace when comes to purpose in
the workplace.
But before we get to that, tellus a little bit about who is
(01:12):
Josh plaskoff?
Who is Josh?
Um,
Josh (01:16):
the lifelong project of who am I?
Um, uh, I don't know.
I, uh, grew up in an actingfamily and um, in California I
have always been kind of ahypersensitive kid.
I was a hypersensitive kid and,and as a result Always been
(01:36):
interested in feelings of
POD00058 (01:38):
people
Josh (01:39):
and connecting with people.
And I really didn't know what Iwanted do.
I.
Still sure know what I'm doing.
but, uh, um, uh, got reallyinterested in just learning and
learning anything I abouteverything.
And so sort of a lifelonglearner, learned.
from shakespeare to physics toname And all of my education was
(02:04):
in learning and really all of mywork in learning yeah, I I'm a
learning kind guy.
Um, how about professionally?
So professionally, uh, 30 yearsin industry, um, to an executive
position.
And, um, at the same timetaught, uh, for
POD00058 (02:23):
about 20
Josh (02:24):
years at the university concurrently.
And, uh, took three years toteach full time, Kelley School
Business.
And that was really fun.
And I went back to my old careerand decided was time to kind of,
uh, leave the corporate world,uh, not completely, but being in
(02:44):
the corporate and teach full andstart my business.
so um, so now I'm, uh, teachingup at Purdue and um, leadership
and teaching the generation,which is of what I really love
do.
then also started my company, isreally about, you about purpose.
That's kind living my purposeand working a few for my friends
(03:05):
to live their purpose.
So, love it.
Yeah.
Leslie (03:08):
One question I ask everyone Mm-hmm.
What is your purpose?
IMG_6281 (03:12):
have a life purpose,
Leslie (03:13):
what is it?
You know, somebody asked me thatI would say probably 25 ago.
Josh (03:19):
And I didn't even think just came out was
IMG_6281 (03:21):
to
Josh (03:21):
make the workplace more human and stuck.
it sort of, uh, uh, I it'sbroadened since then to make the
world more human.
But, um, so much my time isspent in the workplace and the
workplace that.
Um, really to try humanizethings and I saw so much
(03:41):
happening to me to me, to me toothers that me about the
workplace in terms pushing awayhumanity, pushing away we are as
people, um, becoming themachine.
And really
POD00058 (03:56):
frustrated me.
Mm-hmm.
Josh (03:58):
it just came out and it sort of stuck and that's what
is.
whenever anybody asks me, that'ssay, to make make workplace Yes.
Well, and it's perfect fit forconversation today, which is all
about how purpose shows up inthe workplace.
Leslie (04:15):
Could you, before we go there, could you share little
bit about business?
'cause I think that will helpset the context for our
conversation.
Sure.
Yeah.
Um, so the company called InnerHuman Group and, and really the
focus is on.
trying to take a different toorganizations is trying to
reframe what organizations arewhat means be in an
Josh (04:37):
with people.
Um, most organizations,consulting is done as a
structural thing.
We look at things as things.
We look at as things, they'rejust moving around those things.
And our approach morerelationship.
First things second.
Actually, your relationshipdefines your thingness.
And so in organizations, welooking the relationships not
(05:00):
only people, of people topurpose, people to vision,
people to, uh, customers, peopleto the products the services.
Um, a a lot work early thisthing called experience, which
is now a, a, thing.
And, uh, we still do theexperience.
We think about the employeeexperience, beyond just the
employee experience.
It's at the entire humanexperience as part business
(05:25):
experience.
And we're convinced a hundredpercent if you make workplace
more human, if you create, ifyou work on those relationships,
it will affect the bottom linepositively.
It's hard people believe thatI've shown people data and
research and they just don'tseem wanna it for some reason.
Mm-hmm.
But, uh, But, it um, impacts thebottom and it's, but it's very
(05:49):
intangible a lot times, and, so,uh, basically doing is taking
the work I've done for 30 yearsand, helping others that same
work, so Yeah.
are working companies to helpthem bring a human experience
into the workforce with anemphasis relationships, over.
(06:11):
movement of things we, alwaysstart with the business.
start what you Mm-hmm.
And then do you create anenvironment a human environment
achieve not just an environment,because a lot of times it's not
a human environment.
It's like, gonna stress ourpeople out or we're gonna, you
give them rewards punishmentsand of that.
But it's actually saying canachieve that in a different way.
(06:33):
Right.
And leaders think in verydifferent way.
Yeah.
Leslie (06:36):
So, that, that's one reason why we wanted you on the
show is because you are takingan unconventional approach
Josh (06:46):
mm-hmm.
To helping businesses succeed.
And doing that, it's alsohelping humans succeed in the
business.
Yeah.
And,
Leslie (06:54):
and one very human is purpose.
Mm-hmm.
Josh (06:58):
Absolutely.
Leslie (06:59):
And I love to start with exploration of purpose an
individual versus what I wouldlike collective purpose mm-hmm.
Of Of business.
And are those similar?
How are they different?
Well, for me, don't, and peoplemay
Josh (07:20):
disagree, but don't think you can have an individual
purpose without being connectedto people um, but think purpose
is always collective in somesense.
necessarily that has the samebut that your purpose is somehow
to others.
And, so, for our work actuallyis one of the bases.
(07:43):
purpose, values, meaning, and,vision um, those four things
really sort of the actually, Idon't like to use it as as a
noun.
I to use it as a verb.
IMG_6281 (07:55):
I, I, I, we
POD00058 (07:57):
get to this later, but the the, the, idea of nouns,
like vision statements and, youknow, purpose statements.
They're
IMG_6281 (08:04):
dead,
POD00058 (08:06):
but itself is not dead.
Right?
It's living, It's dynamic.
And so as soon as you turn itinto a noun, same thing with
vision.
Here's our vision statement.
Well, that's not
IMG_6281 (08:16):
living but it's
POD00058 (08:19):
evolving, constantly living thing.
And so I like to think about itas purposing visioning, you
know, those as a verb Mm-hmm.
Because it's constantly going.
So your individual purposingtakes place within a collective
purposing, right.
And they should inform eachother and they should connect
with each other.
And they shouldn't necessarilythe same.
(08:41):
Because if, if you say, well,your purpose has to be the same
as our organizational purposeidentically in terms of what we
think it is, you're actuallychanging somebody's humanity
because everyone is different.
a matter of making it completelydifferent, it's making
Josh (08:58):
is it meaningful so that collectively you can out purpose
together by putting piecestogether.
So, so there is an sense thatyou find own unique meaning to
it.
But your own unique meaning,
POD00058 (09:16):
isn't isolated on its own.
part of a
Josh (09:19):
larger Wave wave or purpose.
And it's wave that pushing sothat's kind of how I look But
like, you know,
IMG_6281 (09:29):
um, I think about my purpose
POD00058 (09:30):
making the workplace more human.
It's not because of
IMG_6281 (09:33):
me,
POD00058 (09:34):
because
IMG_6281 (09:34):
of others.
Right.
It's how
POD00058 (09:35):
does it affect others.
How does it affect all of us insome way?
Yeah.
And, and the idea is that it hasto transcend if it's just
isolated to you,
IMG_6281 (09:45):
it's not transcending
POD00058 (09:47):
anything.
It's not transcending theorganization, it's, it's it's
not high enough.
To me, the purpose is, is kindof the highest level.
Mm-hmm.
And if it's
Josh (09:55):
the then needs to be
POD00058 (09:58):
it's affecting the entire entangled world.
Mm-hmm.
In some way.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
IMG_6281 (10:03):
it sounds, you know, kind of
POD00058 (10:04):
lofty.
I mean, purposes always
IMG_6281 (10:05):
sound very lofty and kind of,
POD00058 (10:07):
you know, as I say, miss
IMG_6281 (10:08):
America ish, you know, and they they
POD00058 (10:10):
ask you, what do you wanna, the world, and
Josh (10:12):
well,
POD00058 (10:12):
yeah.
Josh (10:13):
That's what purpose That's what it should It should It feel
it's so lofty and big it'salmost impossible to achieve.
Leslie (10:20):
Here's what I'm hearing, I'm hearing that purpose in and
of itself an individual and fora business is generally
connected to others as well.
You think you know, ViktorFrankl's work
POD00058 (10:35):
purpose,
Josh (10:36):
He, he, merges purpose with responsibility.
that's kind how it too, is that.
Purpose has within Mm-hmm.
And responsibility is toyourself.
Responsibility is to others.
And, yourself to some
IMG_6281 (10:50):
extent.
take care of yourself, butyou're part of that otherness as
well.
So, so, so
POD00058 (10:56):
if you have a purpose, the purpose has responsibility.
Josh (11:00):
Not accountability, means if you don't it, somebody's
gonna, you know, punish youwhatever.
Mm-hmm.
The responsibility And that Ihave to because I am part of a
collective Or I'm part humanrace.
Right.
Or I'm of
IMG_6281 (11:13):
whatever it is.
Mm-hmm.
You know,
POD00058 (11:15):
and, and it's, it's a, it's a compel compulsion that
You have to do it.
Yeah.
I must
IMG_6281 (11:20):
do So I
Leslie (11:21):
think thing that I'm getting tripped up on though Is
for a company, though, acompany, has purpose, right?
Yeah.
Um, But for the individual,their purpose.
And in this case, it's company'spurpose.
And their
IMG_6281 (11:36):
hope
Leslie (11:37):
is to get all the
IMG_6281 (11:39):
employees aligned with Right?
Josh (11:44):
Yes.
But aligned doesn't Mm-hmm.
Align means that the energies
POD00058 (11:49):
are working in the same So let you know pur
purposes in general.
I
IMG_6281 (11:56):
mean, if I'm advising
POD00058 (11:57):
I'm making a purpose.
It should
IMG_6281 (11:58):
be pretty general,
POD00058 (12:01):
you know?
IMG_6281 (12:02):
Um, like Steve Jobs, I wanna put
POD00058 (12:05):
a ding in the universe.
Josh (12:06):
Um, putting a ding universe pretty general.
Um, you, you look that and sayalmost everybody find some their
purpose It's so big and it's solofty and it's so
IMG_6281 (12:22):
general.
Josh (12:23):
That people can say, I'm contributing to ding in the
universe.
IMG_6281 (12:27):
by the way I
POD00058 (12:27):
answer phones.
I'm
IMG_6281 (12:29):
contributing to that ding in the
POD00058 (12:30):
by the way that I am talking and
IMG_6281 (12:33):
I care about
POD00058 (12:35):
I'm contributing to
IMG_6281 (12:36):
that by, and, and each person's
POD00058 (12:39):
purpose could
IMG_6281 (12:40):
be contained within that.
POD00058 (12:42):
Mm-hmm.
You know, my purpose is
IMG_6281 (12:43):
to
POD00058 (12:44):
treat people with dignity and respect.
My purpose is to people in someway to lead a
IMG_6281 (12:50):
better life, you know, whatever that is,
Josh (12:52):
that's general as well.
Mm-hmm.
And it can usually fit intosomething, they have to be, you
have to enable people to findtheir purpose within the context
of
POD00058 (13:02):
corporate purpose.
to say, well, that doesn't countbecause that you're not saying
exactly what we say.
Right.
Well then you've limited yourpurpose to
IMG_6281 (13:11):
a
POD00058 (13:13):
formula.
Mm-hmm.
It's not a formula.
It's an emotional state.
Its, its a state of
Josh (13:18):
being.
And so, so it's, it's,alignment, but not in the sense
of we're make everybody thesame.
Right.
It's alignment in the senseeveryone's energy comes from
purpose, individual, andcollective is contributing to
the same stream same wave movingforward.
if it's going oppositedirection, got problem.
(13:39):
Right, it's crushing the waveand it's okay, now we have an
POD00058 (13:42):
issue.
Mm-hmm.
Now we
Josh (13:43):
gotta about that.
Okay.
So company a purpose.
Individuals have their purpose,and the goal is to help
individuals see how purposeconnects to the company's
purpose.
Yeah.
kind what I, I
IMG_6281 (13:58):
would call
Josh (13:59):
there some organizations seen where believe in the values
the same way you to believe inpurpose.
And call the Stepford companies.
I don't if you remember themovie, Wise.
Yeah.
But they were
IMG_6281 (14:08):
all the
POD00058 (14:08):
uhhuh, and they had to act the
IMG_6281 (14:10):
the same.
And it's like,
Josh (14:11):
that's not healthy.
Right.
It's not healthy organizationbecause leads to no evolution.
It leads to no change.
leads to no forward movement.
POD00058 (14:23):
It's a
IMG_6281 (14:23):
a dead organization.
POD00058 (14:25):
So, So, that's, that's, that's
IMG_6281 (14:27):
what we mean by
POD00058 (14:28):
A lot of people think alignment is lockstep.
Right.
It's not lockstep.
Yeah.
about alignment of energy.
If you think, I, I like to thinkin terms of energy, human
energies.
Josh (14:38):
But
POD00058 (14:38):
but if you think about it, you know, people are putting
energy into their work, and youcan tell when there's positive
energy right?
Oh yeah.
You can walk in and feel in aplace.
You can't measure it, you can'treally describe it and identify
it, but it's there.
So if you think about it asenergy and if they, the human
energy is moving in a positivedirection to, to allow things to
Josh (14:58):
happen, then there, then meanings and purposes and all
those are aligned, right?
I, all this company has purpose,individuals have a and it's
about making the energy alignedso that those are connected and
moving in the same direction.
(15:21):
But when I look out intocorporate America, it doesn't
feel like that's what happens.
Leslie (15:30):
Why is
Josh (15:31):
that?
Well, a good that's what I'mtrying to But, um,
POD00058 (15:36):
Just
IMG_6281 (15:36):
off the top
POD00058 (15:37):
my head, I think there are a couple
IMG_6281 (15:38):
reasons.
POD00058 (15:40):
One is
Josh (15:42):
that
POD00058 (15:43):
it's not an aligned
IMG_6281 (15:47):
world We live in a world
POD00058 (15:49):
contradictions, you know, and so thinking about
energies, there, there are,there, are opposite, you know,
young, the psychologists wouldtalk about opposite energies
that are contained within us andopposite energies that are
contained within society.
Those aren't necessarily badthings, but we look
Josh (16:04):
at bad
POD00058 (16:05):
because they conflict.
Mm-hmm.
We don't want conflict becausethat doesn't, that's not good.
But in reality, conflict issomething, if handled properly,
is what moves things forward.
It also leads to different viewsof the world that need to be
looked at because we
Josh (16:20):
we're
POD00058 (16:21):
of limited in of the world.
And I think this is part, youknow, part of the
Josh (16:25):
the other challenge is we, we,
POD00058 (16:28):
have certain perspectives that we can take
that we're comfortable with andwe think that that's complete
Josh (16:34):
truth.
But in reality there aremultiple perspectives that are
IMG_6281 (16:38):
equally
Josh (16:39):
true and you put all together like a jigsaw puzzle to
really close to some kind of alot of it is and a lot of it
stuff that's confusing
POD00058 (16:51):
So I think what we try to do is we oversimplify things
too much.
try to limit them to this is howit's got to be because we want
the recipe, we want thechecklist, we want the numbers,
we well, unfortunately the worlddoesn't work that way.
We think it does because we'vebeen taught through our physics
classes that you can calculate
Josh (17:13):
how
POD00058 (17:13):
the world works
Josh (17:14):
in numbers and everything is completely calculable because
what Galileo and Newton
IMG_6281 (17:20):
But what quantum physics our new physics is
showing is
POD00058 (17:23):
that's not reality.
That's an And so
IMG_6281 (17:28):
we've been
POD00058 (17:29):
to some extent, to limit our thinking to small
buckets and, and ways ofthinking that are, that
IMG_6281 (17:34):
lock us And when,
POD00058 (17:36):
they lock us in, then we're always fighting the energy
instead of
IMG_6281 (17:40):
trying to Be in the energy.
POD00058 (17:43):
About a surfing
Josh (17:44):
and a wave.
You know, if fight the wave
POD00058 (17:46):
and you try and conform it to what you want it
to be, you ain't gonna have agood ride.
IMG_6281 (17:51):
But if you are become one with the
POD00058 (17:53):
if surf the wave, if you actually go with
IMG_6281 (17:56):
the wave and, and, and you
POD00058 (17:58):
in all of its sort of unpredictable nature, then
you're gonna
IMG_6281 (18:01):
get a good ride.
Hmm.
POD00058 (18:03):
this is the same thing.
I think what we try to forcethings into what we think they
should be when they're not thatway.
And then we run into challengesand conflicts
Josh (18:14):
that we don't solve because don't want to deal those
POD00058 (18:18):
Mm-hmm.
Because they
Josh (18:19):
fit our simplistic model of the world.
And I think when talking aboutpurpose and meaning you know,
all these big human beings ingeneral, talking about
complexity.
talking about very things.
Each person unique, has theirown story, has, years of and
history and everything else, andwe just dismiss as though
(18:41):
doesn't exist and say, well,you're a
IMG_6281 (18:43):
a cog in the wheel or in the machine.
That
POD00058 (18:47):
type of thinking limits our ability to actually
employ this
Josh (18:53):
stuff.
Mm-hmm.
IMG_6281 (18:54):
We
Josh (18:54):
like to be you know, planned and solid and
everything's predictable.
Mm-hmm.
And Mm-hmm.
That's the beauty.
It's also challenge.
My take.
Yeah.
And we base our work is, how doyou actually.
Embrace that complexity.
Ride the wave.
How do you ride How do you emthe complexity?
(19:15):
How do you you entertaindifferent thing, different
points of different waysthinking, different ways looking
at world, and actually not lookit a but look at it as
opportunity.
POD00058 (19:25):
Right.
Leslie (19:27):
So I've got two question here because I, I get I, get.
is that the reason why it's notshowing up is because we tend to
fight instead of riding the wavehow do you see purpose up in the
workforce today?
Then how should purpose show upin the workforce?
Yeah.
(19:47):
Well think of
Josh (19:48):
of all, I it's had a which is really good.
Okay.
I people finally
IMG_6281 (19:56):
that purpose is important
POD00058 (19:57):
not only in their lives but in the
IMG_6281 (19:59):
workplace as well.
POD00058 (20:00):
do you, but that's
IMG_6281 (20:01):
a good thing.
Lemme ask the question
Leslie (20:02):
though.
Is the resurgence because
IMG_6281 (20:07):
of profit
POD00058 (20:11):
or like actual belief?
Like what's motivating
IMG_6281 (20:15):
The the on good question.
I, you know, I think
Josh (20:23):
kind of my take on'cause been behind few these ideas that
start off, with kind of.
A grander idea.
And unfortunately happens is a alot of times it gets
IMG_6281 (20:34):
commoditized
POD00058 (20:36):
And, I think that that's sort of a natural pathway
that we've had with a lot ofideas.
Um, purpose potentially
IMG_6281 (20:43):
could go down that road
POD00058 (20:44):
of, okay, now it just becomes another line in your, in
your organization that you justtell people and then it sits on
the shelf
Josh (20:51):
and you you put it
POD00058 (20:53):
on people's performance plans and then you
measure it and then,
IMG_6281 (20:56):
you know, that's not
POD00058 (20:58):
what it is.
Right.
But that feels comfortablebecause that's the way
IMG_6281 (21:00):
we've done this all
POD00058 (21:01):
time.
Right.
With these things.
so.
IMG_6281 (21:03):
So, the good news is it
POD00058 (21:06):
re has come back
IMG_6281 (21:09):
with
POD00058 (21:10):
some people saying, you know, like you and some
other people saying
IMG_6281 (21:15):
that.
Josh (21:16):
True purpose.
The idea of really findingpurpose that that pervades the
individual the organization isimportant.
And, and, and yes, it, it willaffect the money side, which is
fine.
great.
I think that's important.
Um,
POD00058 (21:34):
but if it just becomes a means to an end
IMG_6281 (21:37):
rather than part
POD00058 (21:38):
the end in itself, which is the human being, is the
end in,
IMG_6281 (21:41):
in itself
POD00058 (21:42):
Okay.
If it just becomes another meansto an end, then it's losing its
luster.
Mm-hmm.
And that's a
IMG_6281 (21:47):
a lot of times what I've seen.
So the
Josh (21:51):
good news is it's, it's resurfacing, Um, but
POD00058 (21:54):
I think there's still potential and for example,
IMG_6281 (21:57):
example, with employee experiences, has happened
POD00058 (22:00):
and starting to happen.
You know, the was a veryrevolutionary
IMG_6281 (22:04):
idea.
POD00058 (22:04):
It was how do you co-design the workplace with
employees?
How do you view
Josh (22:09):
human as a super set of employee experience
IMG_6281 (22:12):
to allow
Josh (22:13):
the human part of it to actually, you bring in emotions
and feelings and and all kindsof How you, make some of these
intangible things tangible insome way so could design them
together?
And, you know, some use it asbring your dog to and, you know,
put a bar that and now a greatemployee experience.
(22:35):
well great, but that's notreally the so it does happen the
time.
Mm-hmm.
Um.
the, um, unfortunately you
IMG_6281 (22:45):
you don't get the, payback Same thing with purpose.
POD00058 (22:49):
I think if it becomes another corporate line where you
just put it on the wall and putit on the mugs and say,
IMG_6281 (22:54):
okay, here's our purpose.
Josh (22:56):
Yay raw us, and then we're gonna have little parties with
purpose, parties, and we'regonna talk about purpose.
And just gonna have our purpose.
And your purpose doesn't matterlong as it's our purpose, you're
not gonna
IMG_6281 (23:07):
get mm-hmm.
What really it's And so
POD00058 (23:11):
think, so I think, there's a potential point and,
and the the question is, which
IMG_6281 (23:14):
direction is it gonna go?
Mm-hmm.
and
POD00058 (23:16):
not only which direction is it
IMG_6281 (23:17):
gonna go collectively
POD00058 (23:18):
terms of everybody, but individually, which
organizations are gonna reallylatch onto it and say, this
really is important and it istransformational of the
workplace.
And it is something that theydon't teach in business schools.
Yeah.
Josh (23:30):
Yeah.
Or it's gonna be some that saynot gonna it that way and
choice.
And hopefully is that that theones that latch on some research
shows this, when you latch ontopurpose, it does change
perceptions of the organization.
It does change how,
IMG_6281 (23:48):
you know, how
POD00058 (23:49):
employees retention and all those
IMG_6281 (23:51):
kinds of things.
Mm-hmm.
POD00058 (23:52):
the ones that don't
IMG_6281 (23:53):
may
POD00058 (23:54):
less of an attractive employer and may do less
business.
Yeah.
And then it'll prove
Josh (23:59):
itself.
the ones that do
Leslie (24:01):
mm-hmm.
We know they and feel different.
Yeah.
We can feel the But what do theydo to have, to be purposing in
their business?
Yeah.
Josh (24:15):
Um, well
POD00058 (24:16):
think part of it is, is
IMG_6281 (24:20):
dialoguing.
So, so,
POD00058 (24:22):
um, we
IMG_6281 (24:25):
so our, our, we have a model
POD00058 (24:26):
we use for our work, and it's called the Clear It's
the LEAR
Josh (24:32):
and.
basis is purpose, vision,values, and, Okay.
those kind of four the basis ofthe And then builds up to, it
actually is backwards.
The, Yeah.
The, the, The, and the are atthe bottom and builds to the C
the top.
And the C at the top isco-designing.
Okay?
So idea that you're co-designingthe workplace.
(24:54):
get there, you have to have a,an organization of dialogue And
the dialogue comes throughlistening and learning, which L.
empathy, which is the E anddialogue is not about, um,
telling what your ideas tellingpeople what your purpose is and
saying, here's your purpose.
Now, you tell us your purpose isin line that?
POD00058 (25:16):
make sure
IMG_6281 (25:16):
you're all aligned.
POD00058 (25:18):
Dialogue is actually coming to the table with very
open points
IMG_6281 (25:22):
of view
Josh (25:22):
and being able exchange those and see what comes out of
So part of it is having anorganization of dialogue live
their
IMG_6281 (25:31):
their
Josh (25:31):
purpose and allows just purpose being human being.
Mm-hmm.
To, to share different ideas,to, to innovate, to create all
of those aspects being a humanbeing.
To enable that To happen, youhave the A the R, is adapt and
relate, which is, which are theenablers of So the idea how do
you a community within theorganization, community feeling,
(25:55):
and not, not even just acommunity, feeling community
itself.
And community purpose,purpose-driven, right?
Entity.
we, we we love the community,but we really want put in the
work to get And, um, communityis, it has transcendent purpose.
By definition, definition has atranscendent if you don't have
(26:16):
transcendent purpose as as agroup, you're you can't be
community.
So in some sense, what they dothey create an environment in
community thrives.
IMG_6281 (26:25):
of and community is responsibility, care for others,
POD00058 (26:31):
having some transcendent purpose, um, um,
having a moral obligation toeach
IMG_6281 (26:37):
other.
That is there, not because
POD00058 (26:40):
getting rewarded and punished, but because you just
have to mm-hmm.
IMG_6281 (26:43):
mm-hmm.
Because you're part of it.
So,
POD00058 (26:46):
the danger is when you segment out,
IMG_6281 (26:48):
oh, we're gonna now do purpose
Josh (26:49):
work
IMG_6281 (26:51):
and, and not
POD00058 (26:52):
at it in the of the life
IMG_6281 (26:54):
in the organization.
Mm-hmm.
Josh (26:56):
So it's not workshop and you're done.
Right.
It's about do you actually ashuman beings and integrated
with.
Caring vision and values and thegoals and
POD00058 (27:09):
they have to all be
IMG_6281 (27:10):
integrated.
POD00058 (27:11):
So it's a matter of, an environment where it's
integrated.
It's just part and parcel ofwhat you do.
Right.
IMG_6281 (27:18):
And it's hard to say,
POD00058 (27:19):
well, you implement this and you implement that, and
you just put this in place andthat in place because it's not
that's life works.
Mm-hmm.
You know, life is not acompartmentalized.
thing
Josh (27:30):
of, exact measures and exact actions and everything
else.
It's a flow.
And so I think the, thecompanies do it, do do work
where they have a lot of aboutpurpose, individual purpose,
and, and purpose.
and, what does mean?
they point some of those thingsout say, Hey, that was really
living our purpose all that.
(27:50):
But if it just becomesmechanical process and doesn't
become embedded just in therelationships of organization,
then you're minimizing itspossibilities.
Yeah.
So how you do that?
Leslie (28:06):
How you do it?
How do you, so I am hearing itallows room for dialogue.
And dialogue comes with empathy.
comes from being open and caringand all these things, in my I'm
thinking comes with time.
It adds time.
(28:28):
then I'm imagining an executiveteam coming together weekly,
monthly, and trying to envisionwhat does that look like for
company that's living purposeand role modeling the ways
Josh (28:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
there's, there's It's differentway of and that's part of the
challenge.
Because to some power bemediated, you and we have all
power structures that build inorganizations.
And not saying power is bad, butit's saying it has to in some
Other have to feel like theypower.
(29:08):
You You can't power, purpose
POD00058 (29:09):
without Some kind of you know, self power or
empowerment Mm-hmm.
How are you gonna feel
IMG_6281 (29:16):
purpose, purposeful?
POD00058 (29:17):
I.
IMG_6281 (29:18):
if you have
POD00058 (29:19):
no power at all?
Right.
Josh (29:20):
So the question is, is how you actually create an
environment that's just thispower we're tell you and do, you
know, and instruct you what doand you're just gonna cause
that's
IMG_6281 (29:33):
not gonna allow people to free up purpose.
POD00058 (29:36):
So, So, you know, part of it has to do with mediating
power.
Part of it has to
Josh (29:41):
do with constant dialogue and talking about who you a
being, just what you're but whowho you are you stand human
being in the in the, workplace.
And that's.
That's part being a human being.
part of it is, um, linking yourbusiness to those purposes.
(30:03):
Why are you doing what you'redoing?
You You and not I, I'm stillconvinced that there is a soul
for being.
And there's also a soul for acompany, it's not in a religious
sense, but in a sense there is
IMG_6281 (30:16):
a,
Josh (30:16):
there is
IMG_6281 (30:17):
a,
POD00058 (30:18):
some kind of a, a defining characteristic of who
they are.
That started at the beginning.
There was a reason they started.
It's not just for money, It'sit's almost
IMG_6281 (30:28):
almost never for It's
POD00058 (30:30):
there's something
IMG_6281 (30:31):
there at the beginning,
POD00058 (30:32):
And a lot of times what happens is it gets lost
because you're you're doing,you're wrapped up in all your
business stuff and everythingelse, but that soul is still
there.
It's just covered with so muchgook and dirt and garbage that
you can't get to it.
And so part of the purpose workis getting back to, what was it
that was the energy that started
IMG_6281 (30:52):
this place, and then allowing people
POD00058 (30:54):
participate in that energy.
IMG_6281 (30:56):
So,
Josh (30:57):
you know, those are some of the things you you You to re
recover that soul.
You have to and, and, and bringinto it so that they
IMG_6281 (31:07):
attach to it.
POD00058 (31:09):
What's hard
Josh (31:09):
right is organizations are somewhat temporary spaces, you
know, and, and it it does taketime.
And so,
POD00058 (31:18):
you know, the, I had one of my students come to me
and say.
Um, so is it normal for peopleto just stay at a job two or
three years and then move on?
Because that's what it seemslike everyone
Josh (31:28):
does.
And And I said, well, that'sbecome the new right?
Because for a couple reasons.
One is you make more money doingthat because you raise.
other is that there isn't a hugeamount of of loyalty right
Mm-hmm.
Because there's not a a lot ofloyalty
POD00058 (31:40):
coming from the companies to the employees
IMG_6281 (31:42):
either.
Mm-hmm.
POD00058 (31:43):
It's a two-way say, well, you
IMG_6281 (31:45):
know, we're gonna let 10,000 people go, that helps the
bottom, you
POD00058 (31:49):
the short term bottom line.
But it also says, we're notgonna be loyal to you, but
IMG_6281 (31:54):
we want, you know,
POD00058 (31:55):
we want you to be loyal back to us.
Right.
Well, how how can you have thatkind of loyalty you don't know
whether they're just gonna letyou go?
Mm-hmm.
So to, to do this and to reallylive purpose
Josh (32:07):
in some sense, you have to revisit idea of loyalty and to
each And what mean to be anemployee what does mean to be,
uh, an organization together?
which again, been challenged andit's, it's, you it's different
Um, so, so, you know, does a lotof time, but without having time
(32:27):
to to grow nurture it, it kindof take over.
you know, the, know, and, andgrow out, know,
IMG_6281 (32:36):
that grow out that soul or whatever it is, then
it's
POD00058 (32:40):
to do.
Right.
It's hard to do.
Yeah.
I mean, this is not easy stuff.
This is, it's not for the fainthearted, that's for sure.
I mean,
IMG_6281 (32:47):
this is this is not easy.
It's not
Leslie (32:50):
It's not easy.
Well, as were, as about the soulof the business, I found myself
drawing parallel to season one.
So season one was all aboutindividuals pursuing their
purpose.
Mm-hmm.
And one the things that came outas a theme was that of our
(33:12):
conditioning Through childhoodand into adulthood it's, it's
conditioning us to do the thingswe're supposed to do.
Right.
And as you were talking aboutthe, soul and over time how it
loses itself, It's like, wow,that happens, you know, for
(33:32):
individuals too, there's thisphase like, you're supposed to
do this, you're supposed to growby 10% every year.
You're supposed to, all supposedthings.
Yeah.
These things that happens inbusiness too.
Oh, And that, that also causesthe soul of business to Yeah.
Get shadowed.
Yeah.
I mean, I I, always ask thequestion is, wrong having a
(33:55):
business
Josh (33:56):
that at the rate inflation little beyond inflation and
gives hundred people great life?
Mm-hmm.
What's wrong with that?
There's
IMG_6281 (34:05):
nothing
Josh (34:05):
wrong
IMG_6281 (34:05):
with it.
Why does
POD00058 (34:06):
have to, everything have to be a
Josh (34:08):
a Walmart or you know, massive empire.
Why can't just be that is good?
And turns to be something great,lose initial kind of, just doing
this.
because we care about it.
Right.
and And, yeah.
think it happens to people
IMG_6281 (34:27):
and it happens in some organizations, you know?
Mm-hmm.
POD00058 (34:29):
I, I, always think
IMG_6281 (34:30):
that
POD00058 (34:31):
I, I like the idea
IMG_6281 (34:32):
that your
POD00058 (34:32):
purpose is being spoken to you and you need
IMG_6281 (34:37):
What are you being asked?
Mm-hmm.
Uh, what is it, what is lifeasking
POD00058 (34:41):
of you?
Right.
That's the purpose.
Yeah.
what're what you
Josh (34:46):
think, what Is being asked.
And that's the responsibilityyou have life.
And has You know,
POD00058 (34:53):
and, each person
Josh (34:54):
is bringing some purpose.
They may not know what it ityet, but it's there.
But is so you talked about, andI was, I thinking
Leslie (35:05):
talking about purpose.
When you say it's calling you,it's speaking you what, know,
life is asking you now, is thatalso true a a business?
I
Josh (35:16):
in some sense it is.
Okay.
I think, I think there's, yeah.
I think it's when get a fewpeople hear similar kind of
voice mm-hmm.
Saying why, what do we to, whydo we need to exist
POD00058 (35:27):
as an
IMG_6281 (35:28):
organization?
You know, and, and there there
POD00058 (35:31):
be some kind of a
IMG_6281 (35:32):
kind of a calling behind it in some sense.
Right.
Again, I'm not
Josh (35:35):
trying to be about it.
Yeah.
but but, but I think there thereis some sense calling that
organization should to say.
we're doing this this becauseneed to, there's something
missing this world that
POD00058 (35:49):
need to fill.
IMG_6281 (35:50):
Now hopefully
Josh (35:51):
it's got an ethical purpose, it's got some good
purpose and so again, they gotogether, it's a, I an either
or.
I I think both And they other.
They're reciprocal and they, andI think reciprocal.
think it's constantly moving.
You so as you get new employees,that purpose is feeding forth.
'cause their purpose purposethat they've grown their
(36:14):
connections
IMG_6281 (36:15):
is now feeding into the company, and the company
POD00058 (36:17):
feeding starting to put those
IMG_6281 (36:19):
together and then so on and so on, and so on and so
on.
POD00058 (36:22):
on.
Mm-hmm.
You know, and I think we'redoing that personally as well.
Yeah.
Our purpose is being
IMG_6281 (36:25):
molded
POD00058 (36:26):
our inner, it's being, mine is being molded
IMG_6281 (36:28):
right now in this conversation.
POD00058 (36:29):
Mm-hmm.
You know, that's the way
IMG_6281 (36:31):
I would view every interaction, every relationship
we're having is remolding.
Josh (36:36):
Aspects of we are and what our purpose is.
Mm-hmm.
least if open it.
Leslie (36:40):
So I feel like we're doing parallels between
individual and Yeah.
Yeah.
Company.
So the that came out of seasonone I'll use the word ritual
people that are clear, theirpurpose and they're living on
purpose.
They rituals in their day,daily.
It was daily does that exist in,in companies that live on
(37:05):
purpose?
Is there daily ritual?
Is there ritual around purpose?
POD00058 (37:10):
I, I mean, I
Josh (37:11):
I not a ritual person.
But seen a lot them and I, andI, and to to me, they emerge.
They're not something you Okay.
Put in place.
Okay.
And you say, now we're going do
POD00058 (37:23):
Mm-hmm.
I, I,
IMG_6281 (37:24):
think those happen, but a lot of times they don't.
Work out think
POD00058 (37:28):
they just emerge, that somebody comes up with something
that just
Josh (37:34):
resonates them in some way and
POD00058 (37:36):
do
Josh (37:36):
and somebody and says, I like And then they it.
Mm-hmm.
And
IMG_6281 (37:40):
then somebody else does you know, so I think,
Josh (37:43):
I that, um, I think rituals emerge.
From connection each
POD00058 (37:51):
other.
Okay.
And
IMG_6281 (37:52):
that enterprise
POD00058 (37:52):
they're doing together.
Okay.
And the
IMG_6281 (37:54):
the individual may have some too.
Yeah.
I
POD00058 (37:56):
we, we need to have some sense
IMG_6281 (37:57):
of order in our
POD00058 (37:59):
Think about traditions and things.
You know, sometimes traditionsget in that you have to follow
those traditions or
Josh (38:04):
else, but then it doesn't allow new traditions.
Right.
And
POD00058 (38:08):
growth and all of that kind of stuff.
That something that's natural,something that comes out of
IMG_6281 (38:14):
of the energy
POD00058 (38:15):
purpose or comes out of
IMG_6281 (38:16):
of the or whatever it
POD00058 (38:18):
that just emerges in some way.
Those
Josh (38:20):
are really, really, powerful.
but But, I I lot oforganizations
POD00058 (38:24):
try and institute them and they, and don't do that kind
of fall, fall, flat.
Yeah.
'cause everyone can see
IMG_6281 (38:30):
through it as, oh, this is just another
POD00058 (38:33):
kind of thing.
Even if it's not intended to bethat, it just feels
IMG_6281 (38:37):
that And so
POD00058 (38:38):
I always suggest that
IMG_6281 (38:39):
that leaders look for
POD00058 (38:42):
that are emerging and then
IMG_6281 (38:43):
encourage
POD00058 (38:44):
do those or say, Hey, that was really
IMG_6281 (38:46):
cool.
Josh (38:48):
don't we do that why don't you lead that before
IMG_6281 (38:50):
cause I think that
Josh (38:51):
would be really good.
And of a sudden it
POD00058 (38:54):
doesn't become the leader doing it, it becomes the
employees doing it.
Right.
And
IMG_6281 (38:58):
And that gives it even more
Leslie (38:59):
Yeah.
Well, going back to what earlierabout, individual purpose, what
is life asking Company?
are, what's business asking orthe market of the business and
looking for those.
Mm-hmm.
You know, and
IMG_6281 (39:16):
yeah.
POD00058 (39:16):
Observing
IMG_6281 (39:17):
and seeing
POD00058 (39:19):
know, raising
IMG_6281 (39:20):
Yeah.
POD00058 (39:21):
And, you know,
IMG_6281 (39:21):
know, I
POD00058 (39:22):
if we
IMG_6281 (39:22):
we go back to kind of that idea of the employee
Josh (39:25):
experience the co-design, a lot of times leaders want push
too hard.
They feel they're responsible
POD00058 (39:34):
Setting
IMG_6281 (39:34):
the culture and creating this, and driving this
and all of that.
And really, I mean, our approachis more let the employees
Mm-hmm.
Give them the opportunity to doit because, because
Josh (39:47):
change from the
IMG_6281 (39:48):
the top is
POD00058 (39:49):
than change It's slower from the bottom, it's
much easier because people
Josh (39:56):
resist their own ideas.
So sometimes leaders in theirown
IMG_6281 (40:00):
own way.
By pushing too hard, creatingeverything, forcing the culture,
forcing the artifacts, forcingthe events and all that,
Josh (40:07):
as opposed to allowing the employees to a voice and their
show their and
IMG_6281 (40:14):
their rituals and their
Josh (40:16):
things and and, then say, how leader?
facilitate the of those, or thespread or the nurturing
nurturing which is wholedifferent way leading.
we're taught, you gotta drive.
And I, if I hear drive I'm gonnalike, I've heard too much.
It shouldn't
IMG_6281 (40:32):
be driving so you
Josh (40:34):
you should be nurturing, you should be growing, you
should be looking foropportunities to, to grow drive
things.
driving means you're it down.
And, and people resist that.
They They don't So if you tocreate a, you purpose-based
culture, want to emerge frompeople's Right.
And feelings Let them have avoice their purpose And why fits
(40:58):
in, facilitate conversations andallow come their own rituals and
and their and their own, uh, youknow, use their own energy and
then blend into the organizationas is just
IMG_6281 (41:09):
another
POD00058 (41:10):
part of the organization.
Right.
You the
Josh (41:13):
the is going determine purpose, tell purpose is, then
we're gonna it on your plan, andthen each year gonna, tell us
how you lived your purpose.
well, don't you to do that, nowit's purpose anymore.
Right.
It's an an Mm-hmm.
POD00058 (41:29):
not
Josh (41:29):
really, there's there's no, energy to
POD00058 (41:33):
at
IMG_6281 (41:33):
at all
POD00058 (41:33):
anymore.
Yeah.
It's a mechanical
IMG_6281 (41:35):
process
POD00058 (41:36):
I
IMG_6281 (41:36):
I can't help but sit here and that
Leslie (41:40):
I don't think I have ever been asked my purpose at
work.
Oh, really?
Have you?
That's when I out with, with, tothe
Josh (41:53):
more human.
That the only time.
that one time you were asked?
The one time Okay.
Now I did.
boss
POD00058 (42:01):
a colleague or?
No, it was a colleague.
Now, I
IMG_6281 (42:03):
I did work, work with an organization where that
Josh (42:06):
did one of the key elements that, that we worked
was actually having
POD00058 (42:13):
president of
IMG_6281 (42:13):
of the
POD00058 (42:13):
go to each
IMG_6281 (42:14):
employee
POD00058 (42:16):
and ask them what their purpose was.
Yeah.
And
Josh (42:18):
to his credit, he.
Basically said, want you findyour purpose and if can't find
purpose here, don't waste yourtime.
Go find Right.
Which is Yeah, It's brilliant.
I love that because just the actof him asking mm-hmm.
(42:40):
tells me
Leslie (42:41):
I'm allowed to have my own purpose Yes.
I'm expected to.
He wants me to.
Yes.
and, and, he wants to inalignment.
IMG_6281 (42:52):
With
POD00058 (42:53):
business.
Yeah.
Now, what was also brilliant is
IMG_6281 (42:55):
that
POD00058 (42:55):
the employees
IMG_6281 (42:56):
actually created the purpose
POD00058 (42:57):
organization.
the employees created all the,created the purpose and fed it
up to the leaders.
Josh (43:03):
And they also created the the values for But executives
POD00058 (43:08):
ask them,
Josh (43:09):
but what's your purpose in, in.
Conjunction with that, uh,corporate do in it?
Mm-hmm.
What's important to you?
And that the, the conversation.
And became kind of, uh, part andparcel organization.
But it was a different of ofoperating.
POD00058 (43:29):
You know, and
Josh (43:30):
and it took
POD00058 (43:30):
time,
Josh (43:30):
you know, for an for An executive go to employee.
Absolutely.
Take some Yeah.
But it, I it had huge on people.
and said, you know, you're givenpermission, right.
Because lot people don't thingsdo don't do organizations cause
they don't have
POD00058 (43:47):
mm-hmm.
And you
IMG_6281 (43:48):
you need somebody to say, no,
POD00058 (43:50):
can, you're That's okay.
Right.
IMG_6281 (43:53):
And so a lot of,
POD00058 (43:54):
a
IMG_6281 (43:54):
a lot of, these kinds of
POD00058 (43:56):
things, values,
IMG_6281 (43:56):
purpose,
POD00058 (43:57):
uh, individual kind of exploration of those things.
Being a caring about others,having empathy, a lot of it is
permission based.
Mm-hmm.
Basically give peoplepermission.
Well, that's what I was justpeople thinking of permiss in
terms of
Leslie (44:11):
what can people do.
people permission.
give, give,'em'em Allow them toexplore.
Yes.
Yeah.
Ask the question.
But it can't one and doneeither.
Because over time, the soul ofthe company gets buried down
there.
Absolutely.
And it is a little scary because
Josh (44:31):
you don't know what
POD00058 (44:34):
may happen.
IMG_6281 (44:35):
Right.
POD00058 (44:35):
But in the workplace, we've come to this point where
we're sort
IMG_6281 (44:38):
of,
POD00058 (44:40):
You can't make mistakes.
You always have to be buttonedup.
You
IMG_6281 (44:43):
always have to show, you know, everything.
POD00058 (44:44):
it's like, and especially leaders
IMG_6281 (44:47):
are, are,
POD00058 (44:47):
are, think that that's how And I, if I
IMG_6281 (44:50):
I, ask for gonna show that I'm not now,
POD00058 (44:54):
it's actually that you're being a great leader
because you're saying, I don'thave the capability of doing
this.
I'm gonna get people who reallyknow what they're doing.
Right.
That's a good
IMG_6281 (45:01):
leader.
POD00058 (45:02):
Um, anything else on the topic of purpose in the
workplace?
Gosh, what else?
What other questions do youhave?
I don't know.
IMG_6281 (45:09):
We, we talked
POD00058 (45:10):
a lot of stuff.
The main thing I'm hearing is
IMG_6281 (45:14):
that
POD00058 (45:15):
as as human beings, we're messy, iss not the right
word, but we're justunstructured.
It's unformed, it's It's fluid.
There's no perfection inhumanity and in business.
Humans exist in business too.
And so creating a space
IMG_6281 (45:38):
in business where
POD00058 (45:40):
can be humans, and
IMG_6281 (45:42):
and that means
POD00058 (45:43):
have dialogue, space for a space for connection, a
space for empathy, care,concern, and permission to do
so.
Yeah.
And in doing that and connectedto the company's purpose, why it
IMG_6281 (46:01):
exists.
Mm-hmm.
POD00058 (46:02):
We all can work together to move in the right
direction.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Because we're operating as human
IMG_6281 (46:10):
beings Yeah.
POD00058 (46:12):
Yeah.
And add onto what you're saying
IMG_6281 (46:15):
is we're not just messy.
we're weird combinations of Soon the one hand, we're ordered,
but
POD00058 (46:21):
the other hand we're chaotic.
on we're, we love to rip thingsapart and, and you know, try and
understand how they And on theother hand, we have to put
things back together to
IMG_6281 (46:31):
understand contradictions, what they mean.
POD00058 (46:33):
We get, all these contradictions that are part of
us
IMG_6281 (46:37):
and what,
POD00058 (46:37):
what we do is we try and limit ourselves to one of
'em, because it feels safe.
As opposed to saying, you know
IMG_6281 (46:43):
know what?
POD00058 (46:44):
Let's, I use both sides.
IMG_6281 (46:46):
Let's try and
POD00058 (46:47):
both sides
IMG_6281 (46:47):
and, and they're gonna be contradictions.
But you know what, you see awhole different world.
You see things in a wholedifferent way.
But it's, it's being able to, torecognize that these things
coexist and we have to figureout how to deal with instead of
how to get rid of them.
But to some extent we're tryingto convince ourselves to
oversimplify because then it'sjust easy and, but easy is not
(47:13):
the way to reality.
Right.
You know, the reality is, is adifficult road.
Right.
It's a hard road.
Yeah.
And, um, but, but it's a joyfulroad.
And it's a road that when youkind of are on the path and all
this is on the path I mean,purpose is a path, it's a
journey.
And I think if we think of itthat way, then all of a sudden
things change in terms of how weapproach the world, how we see
(47:35):
the world, how we approachrelationships.
Mm-hmm.
Friends, everything changes.
Mm-hmm.
You know, in some way.
Yeah.
And you can see things in verydifferent ways.
Yes.
Anything left unsaid?
I don't, I don't think so.
For now.
For now.
Yeah.
How about that?
Yeah.
Chapter one.
(47:57):
Oh.
Well, thank you Josh for beingon Purpose project.
Thank you.
It was really enjoyable.
Driving home through ruralIndiana.
After dropping my daughter offat college, I couldn't help but
notice the small businessesalong the way.
Some of those small businesseslooked alive.
They looked vibrant, they hadenergy, they looked cared for.
(48:21):
And others seemed worn down likethey had been left behind, and
then it hit me.
This is what happens when thesoul of a business is taken care
of or not taken care of.
When purpose isn't nurtured in abusiness, it becomes an
(48:42):
afterthought instead of aguiding force, and the business
loses its vitality.
The same thing happens for us asindividuals.
Purpose is a way of living.
It's not a goal, it's not adestiny.
It is our being.
And this not only applies to usas individuals, this applies to
(49:06):
business as well.
Businesses must be intentionalto keep their purpose alive.
So as you think about your work,your company, and your
leadership, what practices areyou creating to keep the
business purpose alive?
How are you taking care of thesoul of the business?
(49:30):
Josh, thank you for being onPurpose Project, and thanks to
all of you for tuning in.
Leslie (49:41):
Purpose Project is brought to you for education and
for entertainment purposes.
This podcast is not intended toreplace the advice that you
would receive from a licensedtherapist or doctor or any other
qualified professional.
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