April 15, 2025 • 25 mins
In this episode of Purpose Project, host Leslie Pagel sits down with Jeff Smulyan, a seasoned CEO and entrepreneur, to discuss the critical role of culture and purpose in the business world. Jeff reflects on a societal shift over the past 50 years towards individual self-interest. Jeff also shares his personal journey, the founding of Emmis Communications, and the company's guiding '11 Commandments' that embody its culture and values. The discussion extends to the broader implications of purpose in society, touching on the collective well-being and the need for a shift away from self-absorption. The episode concludes with reflections on how to instill purpose within businesses and the pivotal role they play in addressing societal challenges.
00:00 Introduction to Episode Seven
01:26 Meet Jeff Smulyan: Personal and Professional Journey
02:42 Defining Life's Purpose
03:33 Purpose in the Business World
05:19 The 11 Commandments of Emmis
09:00 Challenges and Employee Alignment
16:05 Societal Shifts and Collective Wellbeing
24:10 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
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Episode Transcript
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(00:05):
Welcome to episode seven.
"It's All About Culture" withJeff Smulyan.
Hi, my name is Leslie Pagel andI am so glad that you found us
here on Purpose Project.
In this episode, I sit down withJeff Smulyan.
Jeff is a CEO.
He's an entrepreneur withdecades of experiences leading
organizations.
(00:26):
In this episode, Jeff talksabout a shift that he's seen in
society over the past 50 years.
It's a shift that has created asadness for him because it's a
movement away from helping eachother, from community, from
connection, and a movementtoward operating for purposes of
(00:48):
individual self-interest.
In this episode, Jeff talksabout the importance, that
business can play in doing goodin the world, and how when we
create a culture within ourbusiness that focuses on doing
the right thing, on winning withintegrity, we can create a
(01:12):
competitive advantage.
Let's take a listen.
Leslie (01:15):
Jeff, thank you for being on Purpose Project.
I am looking forward to ourconversation, on the topic of
purpose in the workplace.
Jeff (01:23):
Great.
Me too, Leslie.
Leslie (01:26):
First, before we dive into it, tell us a little bit
about Jeff Smulyan personallyand professionally.
Jeff (01:34):
Um, personally, I am from Indianapolis.
My family's been here since thelate 1880s, so it's been a long,
long time.
Grew up here, went to school atthe University of Southern
California Undergraduate and LawSchool.
Always wanted to be in the mediabusiness.
Uh, so I studied broadcast lawand law school, wrote my law of
the article on broadcasting law.
(01:55):
I always laugh and say, in thosedays, if you wanted to be an
entrepreneur, you went to lawschool today.
You'd go to business school.
Um, uh, but I, uh, I came backhome after school, started my
company, uh, ran a couple smallstations before that and then
started Emmis in 1980.
Um, so we've been doing it, uh,almost 45 years, so Wow.
(02:17):
And in those 45 years, we'vedone just about everything.
We've owned radio stations,international radio stations,
magazines, television stations,even a major league baseball
team.
Uh, along the way I've, I'vebeen a US ambassador, uh,
written a book, then all sortsof crazy stuff.
Um, it's been, uh, it, it's beena fun, a fun run.
Leslie (02:38):
Love it.
Love it.
Well, thank you for sharingthat.
Uh, one question that I askeveryone on this show is, do you
have a life's purpose?
And if so, what is it?
Jeff (02:50):
I think my life purpose is to, I.
Try to influence the world in,in a better way, um, to try to
make a difference here.
You know, it, it, it sounds sotrite, but, uh, to try to make a
difference and make thingsbetter.
And I've always been proud thatwhile I have failed numerous
times, I've never quit trying.
Leslie (03:11):
Love that.
Yes.
Persistence, resiliency, all ofthat is so important.
Yes.
Um, as we pursue our life'spurpose For sure.
Right.
I love it.
Well, you are a leader inbusiness, an entrepreneur, have,
done a lot of things over thecourse of your, uh, professional
careers with business.
(03:32):
Right.
How do you see the topic ofpurpose coming up in the
business world?
Jeff (03:38):
Well, I think you wanna attract people.
Who view the world broader thanthemselves, um, trying to make
things better.
We've been very fortunate.
We've attracted a lot of peoplewho I, I'm very proud to know,
uh, because of what they standfor.
And I sort of equate purpose to,thinking about other than your
(04:01):
own.
Personal interest on any givenday, your own economic interest.
And if I have a concern aboutthe world, it's, we've gotten
away from a lot of that, um, in,in the last number of years.
Leslie (04:14):
Yeah.
So you see purpose in theworkplace as a, as a method for
bringing in the talent, thetypes of talent that will make.
The work more successful?
Jeff (04:27):
I think we've been able to attract a like-minded people,
people who believe again, thatit's, uh, it's about more than
just their own self-interest.
Mm-hmm.
It's about the interest of thecompany, it's about the interest
of the community, it's about theinterest of, uh, the larger
community.
And I think that's, those arethe kind of people that I'm,
I've been attracted to and thatI've been proud to.
(04:50):
Associate with.
Leslie (04:51):
Yeah.
Does Emmis have a statement ofpurpose?
Jeff (04:57):
Well, we have, yeah.
Mission statement just about theability to effectuate the lives
of our, of our audiences, ourcustomers, uh, and our people.
Leslie (05:08):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
So it sounds like you're, you'reattracting employees into the
business with the mission.
How do you make that integratedinto the business?
Jeff (05:19):
Probably better to share our, our 11 commandments.
Um, I think that really explainswho we are.
I.
Uh, I did this on the back of anenvelope, um, many, many years
ago.
What do we stand for?
What are our values?
Um, there were 10, uh, after webought and sold the Seattle
Mariners baseball team.
We added the 11th, which isAdmit your Mistakes, but, but I
(05:42):
think it was really, these arethe things that, the values that
sort of guide us, and I've beenvery proud that we've lived up
to the most, you know, the time.
And whenever I give speechesabout.
Corporate culture and values.
Uh, and I read them, peoplealways go, oh my gosh, I love
'em.
I love'em.
Um, can I steal'em?
(06:02):
And I say, yeah, you can have'em, but they gotta be your
values.
You know, nothing, nothing comesthrough, uh, as much as when you
live up to what you say youwill.
Mm-hmm.
Leslie (06:12):
Um,
Jeff (06:13):
I, I'll just read'em to you really quickly.
Leslie (06:14):
Love that.
Yes.
Jeff (06:16):
Um, admit your mistakes.
Be flexible.
Keep an open mind.
Be rational.
Have fun.
Uh, I think fun is a veryimportant part of having people
be successful.
Never get arrogant.
Um, you know, believe in whatyou do, your industry, your
company.
Um, believe in yourself.
(06:36):
Um, never jeopardize yourintegrity.
This, uh, even though this waslike seventh on the list, it's
always number one, the mostimportant thing I tell
everybody.
I start with my kids.
Look, if your word is good.
Nothing else matters.
And if your word is bad, nothingelse matters.
Mm-hmm.
So the most important thing iscan people trust you?
They believe you, um, be good toyour people.
(06:59):
Um, be passionate about what youdo and compassionate about how
you do it, and take care of yourcustomers.
Um, those are just the thingsthat, that we sort of rally
around to give the purpose to,to the enterprise that we
Leslie (07:11):
have.
Mm-hmm.
How do you go about rallyingyour employees around those,?
Jeff (07:17):
I think you live'em every day.
Um, I think you either, they'reeither credible because you live
them every day or they're notcredible.
Um, when we, I.
We've been very fortunate.
Have we in 45 years, not livedit up to everything every day?
Of course not.
But I think people know, and Ithink the most gratifying thing
for me, this company's gonethrough major transitions.
(07:38):
We've now gone out of the mediabusiness.
We were in it for 40 years.
Um, so we've had a lot of peoplecome and go.
Probably the greatest complimentI ever get is people used to
work here say, best place I everworked by far.
And I get that all the time.
It's very, very gratifying.
Leslie (07:54):
Hmm.
And and do you associate thatsentiment to the 11 commitments?
Yeah.
Commitments or commandments?
Jeff (08:04):
Commandments.
Commandments.
I, yeah.
I think it's the culture.
It's always the culture.
The 11 commandments embody what,what the culture is all about.
Leslie (08:12):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And
Jeff (08:13):
I think culture is, is absolutely the key.
Leslie (08:16):
Mm-hmm.
And, um, so the 11 Commandmentsare a part of the culture and.
Yeah.
And they're a part of thatbecause you and your team live
them out.
You are the, the role models ofthat
Jeff (08:32):
Yeah.
For the
Leslie (08:32):
business.
Jeff (08:33):
And I, I better be the one guy that they can count on to
live up to these values everyday.
And I, I'm, listen, I'm, I'mvery proud at this stage in my
life, um, I'm, you know, I amproud.
It doesn't mean I haven't made azillion mistakes, but I feel
comfortable with what we standfor.
Um, and that.
To your first question thatwe've tried to make things
(08:55):
better, um, with the people thatwe find.
Leslie (08:59):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Have you ever encountered asituation where, uh, a leader or
a team wasn't in alignment withthe commandments and
Jeff (09:11):
Oh, yeah.
Oh yes.
Yeah.
We, we would do employee surveysand we'd find people say, my
boss does live up commandmentstwo far, four and six.
Um.
And obviously when you findpeople who really don't fit the
culture, they would be betteroff somewhere else and you would
be better off with somebody elsetoo.
Mm-hmm.
(09:31):
And we've had years, over theyears, you're gonna have people
who come in and, uh, sometimesthey meet the values until they
get a leadership positions andthen they forget about'em.
I've seen that too.
Leslie (09:43):
Right.
So,
Jeff (09:45):
great.
Understands the values of thecompany.
And then they get intoleadership and they think, okay,
those don't apply to me anymore.
Whenever, whenever you findpeople.
We think the rules don't applyto them anymore.
You got big problems.
Leslie (09:58):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it sounds like a tool thatyou use is employee feedback,
employee surveys, as a way ofkeeping your finger on the pulse
of
Jeff (10:09):
Absolutely.
How are we doing?
What mistakes are we making?
How can we be better?
What are we doing well?
Leslie (10:15):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Have you ever had anyone pushback on the commandments and
say, these aren't for me.
Jeff (10:23):
Yeah.
I think people who look at thecompany and look at it as a
destination and say, this iswhere I'm comfortable.
Yeah.
We've had that.
I'm sure a lot of people havesaid, I know their culture.
I'm not interested in being partof it.
Leslie (10:37):
Mm-hmm.
So, you know.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Jeff (10:41):
Yeah.
Leslie (10:42):
So.
Thank you for sharing the 11commandments.
I love, I love that.
'cause they really are how we'regonna hold ourselves when we're
a part of this company, thismission that we're all a part
of.
One of the things that I've beenreally fascinated with exploring
is this concept of, um, companymission and purpose.
Jeff (11:03):
Right?
Leslie (11:04):
Versus individual purpose and mission.
And, you know, windows two canoverlap, that's great, but when
they don't, it doesn'tnecessarily mean the employee's
not a good fit, right?
It just means that, they mightnot be as energized as, as if
those two overlapped.
Jeff (11:22):
Yeah.
And listen, company missionalways has to be about
shareholder value and economicsuccess.
No question.
Those are the things that, youknow, I always say you can
believe in all the great thingsin the world, but if you can't.
And do well enough to keep thedoors open.
It really doesn't matter.
Um, so you have to have acompany, you know, mission that
is not only, you know, you know,to, to do stand for the right
(11:45):
things, but also has to beeconomically successful.
And we all know that.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and I think, but I thinkthey, they do align and the kind
of people that you get.
Um, doesn't mean they all havethe same political outlook.
God knows they don't.
Um, but that they, they believethe company could be a force for
good
Leslie (12:03):
mm-hmm.
Jeff (12:04):
Force for positive things in the community and the areas
that it serves.
Leslie (12:08):
Mm-hmm.
And I think
Jeff (12:08):
that that's been a unifying force for people that
we've hired.
Leslie (12:12):
Yeah.
In your leadership role, do yousee.
Different areas in the, in thebusiness as, connected to the
purpose more so than other areasor,
Jeff (12:26):
well, sure.
I mean, listen, you know, whenyou're doing community
involvement, I'm, I'm speakingas the, as somebody who's been
in the broadcasting businessmost of my career, we're sort of
drifting out of it now.
But obviously in broadcasting,you know, how do you do things
in your community that makelives better?
Whether it's fundraisers,whether it's events for
community groups, um, whetherit's providing programming, uh,
(12:50):
that makes people's lives alittle better every day.
So yeah, all of those things.
All the things where youinterface with the community
rather, rather than being asalesperson or an engineer.
Um, who don't really live thepurpose every day.
I mean, obviously salespeoplehave to live, live the purpose
of ethical behaviors and makingsure that they're doing the
(13:11):
right things for theircustomers.
Um, but it's not as forwardfacing as doing a charity drive,
um, for the Salvation Army orthe Cancer Society, which you're
programming people do on aregular basis.
Leslie (13:26):
Right.
Yeah, that makes sense.
What advice do you have forleaders out there that are
listening to this, that, maybeare having a challenge of
getting their people to connectto their mission and purpose?
Jeff (13:41):
Well, I think the most important thing for leaders to
ask themselves, what's importantto me?
What am I trying to accomplishhere?
You know, some people just say,I don't care.
I wanna make the most money.
You know, I don't care what Ido.
Um, you know, you're probablynot gonna reach those people as
much as people who say, I wannamake a difference here.
I want to build an organizationof that does make a difference.
(14:03):
Sure, I gotta make a profit.
I never wanna forget that whenyou run a business, but I want
to do it in the right way.
Mm-hmm.
Um, one of the things we said isnever jeopardize your integrity.
We either win the right way orwe don't win at all.
Now, maybe a lot of people say.
Bye.
Gosh, you gotta win no matterwhat it takes.
Um, that was never us.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but I think, I think, youknow, having leaders, um, who
(14:28):
can build a culture, I, I, likeI say, culture is really the
most important thing.
Mm-hmm.
What a culture of light a peoplewho view, sort of view their
mission in life the same way youview yours.
Leslie (14:39):
Mm-hmm.
Why do you say that culture'sthe most important?
Jeff (14:44):
Because everything about success in an enterprise
determines, is determined by thequality of the people around you
and the values of those people.
Mm-hmm.
If you don't have the rightculture, and I've seen it a
thousand times, if you have aculture where a leader berates
people, uh, pits people againstone another, um, you know, you
(15:04):
really, I think, have adysfunctional organization.
Leslie (15:07):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Do you, do you see culture,purpose, this kind of element of
a business as being acompetitive differentiator?
Jeff (15:21):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
I think when you have people whoare aligned, um, and people who
sort of have a common mission, Ithink they will achieve more
than people whose values are notaligned, uh, and who don't share
a common vision.
With the rest of theorganization.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
I think those organizations wina lot more than they lose.
Leslie (15:44):
Yeah.
So it's a way of achievingshareholder value.
Jeff (15:48):
Absolutely.
I think.
I think so.
I think Sue Leslie.
Leslie (15:51):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Are there any challenges thatyou see in business?
Related to the topic of purpose,mission, culture, you know, that
kind of area that we're talkingaround.
Jeff (16:05):
Well, we sort of live in a world that's changed.
I was talking to a friend theother day, if I have one sadness
about where we are as a country.
Um, we focus inward much morethan outward.
Um.
You know, what built thiscountry, um, was sort of our
success coming together.
(16:26):
Whether it was winning adepression, winning a World War,
coming together after nine 11,um, I think we've lost a lot of
that.
Um, I could bore you for a lotlonger time than we have, but I
think there's too many peoplewho say it's about me and I
don't care about anybody else.
Leslie (16:45):
Mm-hmm.
Jeff (16:45):
And I think that's, I think that's to our great peril.
I've seen a lot more of thatthinking.
Um, we're not united as acountry.
We don't look at each other andsay how we're all in this
together.
How do we make this placebetter?
We look at it and say, I don'treally care about you.
I only care about me.
Um, and I think that's a badsign for the society, and I see
(17:09):
it.
I see that attitude growing alot.
Leslie (17:13):
Yeah.
Well, and it's interestingbecause I see that too.
I mean, it's hard not to seethat, um, in the world today,
and yet this topic of purposeand mission, it is about others.
You know, it, it tends to beabout doing for others.
So
Jeff (17:31):
That's right.
That, and, and what I'm sayingis we've gotten away from that.
Leslie (17:34):
Mm-hmm.
Jeff (17:36):
I have a friend whose son is a senior person at a major,
major institutional fund.
I.
And he says most of the peopleare calling, I'm our hedge fund
and PE billionaires.
And the common theme from all of'em is when they come in is to
say, if I'm worth a billiondollars, the only thing that
matters is I gotta get to two.
And if we're worth two, the onlything that matters again, I get
(17:58):
to four.
Mm-hmm.
Or, or get from eight to 12.
And the notion is that it's not,how do I make this a better
place?
How do I use the great successI've had?
To improve the lives of thepeople around me and the people
in the general community.
We've lost that.
Um, and I think we've lost it.
(18:18):
You know, we have somebody said,we're really an oligarchy.
We have a number of incrediblypower people, powerful people
who were removed from eventhinking about, um, the benefits
to society.
Leslie (18:32):
Right?
Jeff (18:33):
Somebody pointed out something to me I thought was
interesting.
We spend as a percentage ofgross domestic product, I think
half or two thirds less than wespent, you know, on a, on a
relative basis during theEisenhower era, um, when we
built the interstate highwaysystem and we built a lot of our
roads and bridges.
(18:54):
And the point was you had a lotof people who said, look, rather
than spend money on the publicgood.
From just infrastructure, giveme that money back in tax cuts.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, and we've done that.
And so I think you, you know,uh, my favorite, I'm getting
kind of away from purpose, butmaybe not, maybe this ties in.
Um, my favorite statement from alaw professor 50 years ago was
(19:18):
he said, look, the greatestpolitical system in the world's
ever known is a democracy.
The greatest economic system theworld's ever known is free
market capitalism.
But over time, in a free market.
Capitalist, uh, democracy, youwill have people who win so
much, um, and they will keepwinning and they'll, and they'll
(19:38):
allocate more of their winningsto keep the rules such that they
win more.
Mm-hmm.
And everybody else sort of fallsa little bit behind.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I use it, the, the, theexample of sort of the old frogs
in a, in boiling water.
It slowly boils.
I'm sure you've heard thatanalogy before where, um, and
(19:58):
that and that pretty soon peoplerealize that they're falling
behind and they're angry.
I think that's where thiscountry is today.
Yeah.
You look, you look at on a, on aTrump voter on the right or a
Sanders voter on the left, andthey look at the system and they
say, the system's rigged againstme.
And if you look at the economicdata where you've siphon so much
(20:20):
to the very, very top, um.
You know, they're right.
Um, that we, the, the economicdistribution of this country is
dramatically different than itwas 50 years ago.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And I think the problem is thepeople on the very top look at
the world and say, now myproblem, my purpose is me, me,
(20:41):
make more money for me.
Mm-hmm.
That's all my purpose is.
I have to make more money forme.
What.
Improving society.
What about, you know, educatingnot my problem.
My problem is if I've got$2billion, it is my divine right
to get four.
Leslie (20:57):
Mm-hmm.
Jeff (20:58):
And that's, and that scares me more than anything
about where this country is
Leslie (21:03):
today.
Mm-hmm.
What do we do?
'cause I do think that this is atopic of purpose.
You know, purpose is aboutcollective.
Um.
Uh, high tide rises all ships,you know, wellbeing.
Jeff (21:16):
Wellbeing, yeah.
That, that's at least, you know,in my flawed definition, that's
how, what is the collectivewellbeing of society.
Leslie (21:25):
Yes.
Okay.
So what do we do?
What can we do to shift thatmindset, shift that mentality?
Jeff (21:35):
Well, as my professor said throughout history, um, I.
The frightening thing is that'sbeen solved by revolutions.
Mm-hmm.
That's a little frightening to,that's a lot frightening to me.
Um, but the idea is to infuseeverybody, including those at
the very top, but includingthose, you know, all throughout
(21:56):
society is saying, look, how dowe make this a better place?
Mm-hmm.
And I, and I am, I wanna make mylife better.
Um, but I sort ofintellectually.
Understand that if I makeeverybody's life better, we have
a better society.
And I think we've gotten awayfrom that, Leslie.
Mm-hmm.
I don't think people thinkanything about, you know, any,
(22:19):
anybody but themselves.
Mm.
We sort of, sort of demonizethose who don't look like us.
Leslie (22:25):
Mm-hmm.
Jeff (22:25):
Uh, and that, and that becomes pretty frightening.
Leslie (22:30):
Yeah.
Well, and going back to where westarted, one of the things that,
that, that you're doing throughbusiness is instilling these 11
commandments.
Right.
Which is a way of living.
A way of being.
Right.
Right.
Um, so that's one thing thatbusiness can do.
'cause I do think, personally, Ido think business has a, a big
(22:53):
role in solving the problem.
Jeff (22:56):
Absolutely.
Right.
Um, and
Leslie (22:58):
um, and
Jeff (22:59):
I'm very proud here in Indiana that we have some
wonderful major companies thatreally do think about the
Betterment society.
Mm-hmm.
And I've, I've seen that inprojects I've worked on with
them.
Leslie (23:11):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Any other advice that you havefor those that are listening on
how we can shift our mindset tobe more collective and, and the
role that purpose plays withthat?
Jeff (23:23):
Well, again, I think try to, try to step back.
Um, and look at the largersociety, you know, step back
and, because we all get caughtin our own rut, how am I doing
today for me and my family?
Mm-hmm.
How, you know, and that's,that's natural that sometimes
(23:43):
step back and say, you know, weall, when we all succeed and we
all move forward as a society,we're all better off.
Leslie (23:53):
That's right.
Awesome.
Anything left unsaid on thetopic of purpose in the
workplace.
Jeff (23:59):
I hope this has been helpful.
I've enjoyed it.
Leslie (24:02):
Thank you very much.
I've enjoyed it as well, andappreciate you being on the
show.
Thank you.
Jeff (24:08):
Thanks, Leslie.
My pleasure.
Thank you.
Leslie (24:10):
Jeff's reflection on how society has become more and more
self-absorbed has really stuckwith me.
This constant obsession withwanting more and more riddles,
corporate America andconsumerism.
But what I've come to realizethrough Purpose Project is that
more will never be enough.
(24:30):
More will never create a lifefilled with purpose and meaning.
Because a life filled withpurpose and meaning has nothing
to do with self and everythingto do with connection.
A life filled with purpose andmeaning is about connecting to
ourselves.
(24:51):
Connecting to each other andconnecting to the environment
that sustains us.
This is why Purpose Projectexists.
To help remind us that to live alife of purpose, we have to have
connection Jeff, thank you forbeing on Purpose Project, and
(25:11):
thanks to all of you for tuningin.
Purpose Project is brought toyou for education and for
entertainment purposes.
This podcast is not intended toreplace the advice that you
(25:32):
would receive from a licensedtherapist or doctor or any other
qualified professional.
Welcome to episode seven.
"It's All About Culture" withJeff Smulyan.
Hi, my name is Leslie Pagel andI am so glad that you found us
here on Purpose Project.
In this episode, I sit down withJeff Smulyan.
Jeff is a CEO.
He's an entrepreneur withdecades of experiences leading
organizations.
(00:26):
In this episode, Jeff talksabout a shift that he's seen in
society over the past 50 years.
It's a shift that has created asadness for him because it's a
movement away from helping eachother, from community, from
connection, and a movementtoward operating for purposes of
(00:48):
individual self-interest.
In this episode, Jeff talksabout the importance, that
business can play in doing goodin the world, and how when we
create a culture within ourbusiness that focuses on doing
the right thing, on winning withintegrity, we can create a
(01:12):
competitive advantage.
Let's take a listen.
Leslie (01:15):
Jeff, thank you for being on Purpose Project.
I am looking forward to ourconversation, on the topic of
purpose in the workplace.
Jeff (01:23):
Great.
Me too, Leslie.
Leslie (01:26):
First, before we dive into it, tell us a little bit
about Jeff Smulyan personallyand professionally.
Jeff (01:34):
Um, personally, I am from Indianapolis.
My family's been here since thelate 1880s, so it's been a long,
long time.
Grew up here, went to school atthe University of Southern
California Undergraduate and LawSchool.
Always wanted to be in the mediabusiness.
Uh, so I studied broadcast lawand law school, wrote my law of
the article on broadcasting law.
(01:55):
I always laugh and say, in thosedays, if you wanted to be an
entrepreneur, you went to lawschool today.
You'd go to business school.
Um, uh, but I, uh, I came backhome after school, started my
company, uh, ran a couple smallstations before that and then
started Emmis in 1980.
Um, so we've been doing it, uh,almost 45 years, so Wow.
(02:17):
And in those 45 years, we'vedone just about everything.
We've owned radio stations,international radio stations,
magazines, television stations,even a major league baseball
team.
Uh, along the way I've, I'vebeen a US ambassador, uh,
written a book, then all sortsof crazy stuff.
Um, it's been, uh, it, it's beena fun, a fun run.
Leslie (02:38):
Love it.
Love it.
Well, thank you for sharingthat.
Uh, one question that I askeveryone on this show is, do you
have a life's purpose?
And if so, what is it?
Jeff (02:50):
I think my life purpose is to, I.
Try to influence the world in,in a better way, um, to try to
make a difference here.
You know, it, it, it sounds sotrite, but, uh, to try to make a
difference and make thingsbetter.
And I've always been proud thatwhile I have failed numerous
times, I've never quit trying.
Leslie (03:11):
Love that.
Yes.
Persistence, resiliency, all ofthat is so important.
Yes.
Um, as we pursue our life'spurpose For sure.
Right.
I love it.
Well, you are a leader inbusiness, an entrepreneur, have,
done a lot of things over thecourse of your, uh, professional
careers with business.
(03:32):
Right.
How do you see the topic ofpurpose coming up in the
business world?
Jeff (03:38):
Well, I think you wanna attract people.
Who view the world broader thanthemselves, um, trying to make
things better.
We've been very fortunate.
We've attracted a lot of peoplewho I, I'm very proud to know,
uh, because of what they standfor.
And I sort of equate purpose to,thinking about other than your
(04:01):
own.
Personal interest on any givenday, your own economic interest.
And if I have a concern aboutthe world, it's, we've gotten
away from a lot of that, um, in,in the last number of years.
Leslie (04:14):
Yeah.
So you see purpose in theworkplace as a, as a method for
bringing in the talent, thetypes of talent that will make.
The work more successful?
Jeff (04:27):
I think we've been able to attract a like-minded people,
people who believe again, thatit's, uh, it's about more than
just their own self-interest.
Mm-hmm.
It's about the interest of thecompany, it's about the interest
of the community, it's about theinterest of, uh, the larger
community.
And I think that's, those arethe kind of people that I'm,
I've been attracted to and thatI've been proud to.
(04:50):
Associate with.
Leslie (04:51):
Yeah.
Does Emmis have a statement ofpurpose?
Jeff (04:57):
Well, we have, yeah.
Mission statement just about theability to effectuate the lives
of our, of our audiences, ourcustomers, uh, and our people.
Leslie (05:08):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
So it sounds like you're, you'reattracting employees into the
business with the mission.
How do you make that integratedinto the business?
Jeff (05:19):
Probably better to share our, our 11 commandments.
Um, I think that really explainswho we are.
I.
Uh, I did this on the back of anenvelope, um, many, many years
ago.
What do we stand for?
What are our values?
Um, there were 10, uh, after webought and sold the Seattle
Mariners baseball team.
We added the 11th, which isAdmit your Mistakes, but, but I
(05:42):
think it was really, these arethe things that, the values that
sort of guide us, and I've beenvery proud that we've lived up
to the most, you know, the time.
And whenever I give speechesabout.
Corporate culture and values.
Uh, and I read them, peoplealways go, oh my gosh, I love
'em.
I love'em.
Um, can I steal'em?
(06:02):
And I say, yeah, you can have'em, but they gotta be your
values.
You know, nothing, nothing comesthrough, uh, as much as when you
live up to what you say youwill.
Mm-hmm.
Leslie (06:12):
Um,
Jeff (06:13):
I, I'll just read'em to you really quickly.
Leslie (06:14):
Love that.
Yes.
Jeff (06:16):
Um, admit your mistakes.
Be flexible.
Keep an open mind.
Be rational.
Have fun.
Uh, I think fun is a veryimportant part of having people
be successful.
Never get arrogant.
Um, you know, believe in whatyou do, your industry, your
company.
Um, believe in yourself.
(06:36):
Um, never jeopardize yourintegrity.
This, uh, even though this waslike seventh on the list, it's
always number one, the mostimportant thing I tell
everybody.
I start with my kids.
Look, if your word is good.
Nothing else matters.
And if your word is bad, nothingelse matters.
Mm-hmm.
So the most important thing iscan people trust you?
They believe you, um, be good toyour people.
(06:59):
Um, be passionate about what youdo and compassionate about how
you do it, and take care of yourcustomers.
Um, those are just the thingsthat, that we sort of rally
around to give the purpose to,to the enterprise that we
Leslie (07:11):
have.
Mm-hmm.
How do you go about rallyingyour employees around those,?
Jeff (07:17):
I think you live'em every day.
Um, I think you either, they'reeither credible because you live
them every day or they're notcredible.
Um, when we, I.
We've been very fortunate.
Have we in 45 years, not livedit up to everything every day?
Of course not.
But I think people know, and Ithink the most gratifying thing
for me, this company's gonethrough major transitions.
(07:38):
We've now gone out of the mediabusiness.
We were in it for 40 years.
Um, so we've had a lot of peoplecome and go.
Probably the greatest complimentI ever get is people used to
work here say, best place I everworked by far.
And I get that all the time.
It's very, very gratifying.
Leslie (07:54):
Hmm.
And and do you associate thatsentiment to the 11 commitments?
Yeah.
Commitments or commandments?
Jeff (08:04):
Commandments.
Commandments.
I, yeah.
I think it's the culture.
It's always the culture.
The 11 commandments embody what,what the culture is all about.
Leslie (08:12):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And
Jeff (08:13):
I think culture is, is absolutely the key.
Leslie (08:16):
Mm-hmm.
And, um, so the 11 Commandmentsare a part of the culture and.
Yeah.
And they're a part of thatbecause you and your team live
them out.
You are the, the role models ofthat
Jeff (08:32):
Yeah.
For the
Leslie (08:32):
business.
Jeff (08:33):
And I, I better be the one guy that they can count on to
live up to these values everyday.
And I, I'm, listen, I'm, I'mvery proud at this stage in my
life, um, I'm, you know, I amproud.
It doesn't mean I haven't made azillion mistakes, but I feel
comfortable with what we standfor.
Um, and that.
To your first question thatwe've tried to make things
(08:55):
better, um, with the people thatwe find.
Leslie (08:59):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Have you ever encountered asituation where, uh, a leader or
a team wasn't in alignment withthe commandments and
Jeff (09:11):
Oh, yeah.
Oh yes.
Yeah.
We, we would do employee surveysand we'd find people say, my
boss does live up commandmentstwo far, four and six.
Um.
And obviously when you findpeople who really don't fit the
culture, they would be betteroff somewhere else and you would
be better off with somebody elsetoo.
Mm-hmm.
(09:31):
And we've had years, over theyears, you're gonna have people
who come in and, uh, sometimesthey meet the values until they
get a leadership positions andthen they forget about'em.
I've seen that too.
Leslie (09:43):
Right.
So,
Jeff (09:45):
great.
Understands the values of thecompany.
And then they get intoleadership and they think, okay,
those don't apply to me anymore.
Whenever, whenever you findpeople.
We think the rules don't applyto them anymore.
You got big problems.
Leslie (09:58):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it sounds like a tool thatyou use is employee feedback,
employee surveys, as a way ofkeeping your finger on the pulse
of
Jeff (10:09):
Absolutely.
How are we doing?
What mistakes are we making?
How can we be better?
What are we doing well?
Leslie (10:15):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Have you ever had anyone pushback on the commandments and
say, these aren't for me.
Jeff (10:23):
Yeah.
I think people who look at thecompany and look at it as a
destination and say, this iswhere I'm comfortable.
Yeah.
We've had that.
I'm sure a lot of people havesaid, I know their culture.
I'm not interested in being partof it.
Leslie (10:37):
Mm-hmm.
So, you know.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Jeff (10:41):
Yeah.
Leslie (10:42):
So.
Thank you for sharing the 11commandments.
I love, I love that.
'cause they really are how we'regonna hold ourselves when we're
a part of this company, thismission that we're all a part
of.
One of the things that I've beenreally fascinated with exploring
is this concept of, um, companymission and purpose.
Jeff (11:03):
Right?
Leslie (11:04):
Versus individual purpose and mission.
And, you know, windows two canoverlap, that's great, but when
they don't, it doesn'tnecessarily mean the employee's
not a good fit, right?
It just means that, they mightnot be as energized as, as if
those two overlapped.
Jeff (11:22):
Yeah.
And listen, company missionalways has to be about
shareholder value and economicsuccess.
No question.
Those are the things that, youknow, I always say you can
believe in all the great thingsin the world, but if you can't.
And do well enough to keep thedoors open.
It really doesn't matter.
Um, so you have to have acompany, you know, mission that
is not only, you know, you know,to, to do stand for the right
(11:45):
things, but also has to beeconomically successful.
And we all know that.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and I think, but I thinkthey, they do align and the kind
of people that you get.
Um, doesn't mean they all havethe same political outlook.
God knows they don't.
Um, but that they, they believethe company could be a force for
good
Leslie (12:03):
mm-hmm.
Jeff (12:04):
Force for positive things in the community and the areas
that it serves.
Leslie (12:08):
Mm-hmm.
And I think
Jeff (12:08):
that that's been a unifying force for people that
we've hired.
Leslie (12:12):
Yeah.
In your leadership role, do yousee.
Different areas in the, in thebusiness as, connected to the
purpose more so than other areasor,
Jeff (12:26):
well, sure.
I mean, listen, you know, whenyou're doing community
involvement, I'm, I'm speakingas the, as somebody who's been
in the broadcasting businessmost of my career, we're sort of
drifting out of it now.
But obviously in broadcasting,you know, how do you do things
in your community that makelives better?
Whether it's fundraisers,whether it's events for
community groups, um, whetherit's providing programming, uh,
(12:50):
that makes people's lives alittle better every day.
So yeah, all of those things.
All the things where youinterface with the community
rather, rather than being asalesperson or an engineer.
Um, who don't really live thepurpose every day.
I mean, obviously salespeoplehave to live, live the purpose
of ethical behaviors and makingsure that they're doing the
(13:11):
right things for theircustomers.
Um, but it's not as forwardfacing as doing a charity drive,
um, for the Salvation Army orthe Cancer Society, which you're
programming people do on aregular basis.
Leslie (13:26):
Right.
Yeah, that makes sense.
What advice do you have forleaders out there that are
listening to this, that, maybeare having a challenge of
getting their people to connectto their mission and purpose?
Jeff (13:41):
Well, I think the most important thing for leaders to
ask themselves, what's importantto me?
What am I trying to accomplishhere?
You know, some people just say,I don't care.
I wanna make the most money.
You know, I don't care what Ido.
Um, you know, you're probablynot gonna reach those people as
much as people who say, I wannamake a difference here.
I want to build an organizationof that does make a difference.
(14:03):
Sure, I gotta make a profit.
I never wanna forget that whenyou run a business, but I want
to do it in the right way.
Mm-hmm.
Um, one of the things we said isnever jeopardize your integrity.
We either win the right way orwe don't win at all.
Now, maybe a lot of people say.
Bye.
Gosh, you gotta win no matterwhat it takes.
Um, that was never us.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but I think, I think, youknow, having leaders, um, who
(14:28):
can build a culture, I, I, likeI say, culture is really the
most important thing.
Mm-hmm.
What a culture of light a peoplewho view, sort of view their
mission in life the same way youview yours.
Leslie (14:39):
Mm-hmm.
Why do you say that culture'sthe most important?
Jeff (14:44):
Because everything about success in an enterprise
determines, is determined by thequality of the people around you
and the values of those people.
Mm-hmm.
If you don't have the rightculture, and I've seen it a
thousand times, if you have aculture where a leader berates
people, uh, pits people againstone another, um, you know, you
(15:04):
really, I think, have adysfunctional organization.
Leslie (15:07):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Do you, do you see culture,purpose, this kind of element of
a business as being acompetitive differentiator?
Jeff (15:21):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
I think when you have people whoare aligned, um, and people who
sort of have a common mission, Ithink they will achieve more
than people whose values are notaligned, uh, and who don't share
a common vision.
With the rest of theorganization.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
I think those organizations wina lot more than they lose.
Leslie (15:44):
Yeah.
So it's a way of achievingshareholder value.
Jeff (15:48):
Absolutely.
I think.
I think so.
I think Sue Leslie.
Leslie (15:51):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Are there any challenges thatyou see in business?
Related to the topic of purpose,mission, culture, you know, that
kind of area that we're talkingaround.
Jeff (16:05):
Well, we sort of live in a world that's changed.
I was talking to a friend theother day, if I have one sadness
about where we are as a country.
Um, we focus inward much morethan outward.
Um.
You know, what built thiscountry, um, was sort of our
success coming together.
(16:26):
Whether it was winning adepression, winning a World War,
coming together after nine 11,um, I think we've lost a lot of
that.
Um, I could bore you for a lotlonger time than we have, but I
think there's too many peoplewho say it's about me and I
don't care about anybody else.
Leslie (16:45):
Mm-hmm.
Jeff (16:45):
And I think that's, I think that's to our great peril.
I've seen a lot more of thatthinking.
Um, we're not united as acountry.
We don't look at each other andsay how we're all in this
together.
How do we make this placebetter?
We look at it and say, I don'treally care about you.
I only care about me.
Um, and I think that's a badsign for the society, and I see
(17:09):
it.
I see that attitude growing alot.
Leslie (17:13):
Yeah.
Well, and it's interestingbecause I see that too.
I mean, it's hard not to seethat, um, in the world today,
and yet this topic of purposeand mission, it is about others.
You know, it, it tends to beabout doing for others.
So
Jeff (17:31):
That's right.
That, and, and what I'm sayingis we've gotten away from that.
Leslie (17:34):
Mm-hmm.
Jeff (17:36):
I have a friend whose son is a senior person at a major,
major institutional fund.
I.
And he says most of the peopleare calling, I'm our hedge fund
and PE billionaires.
And the common theme from all of'em is when they come in is to
say, if I'm worth a billiondollars, the only thing that
matters is I gotta get to two.
And if we're worth two, the onlything that matters again, I get
(17:58):
to four.
Mm-hmm.
Or, or get from eight to 12.
And the notion is that it's not,how do I make this a better
place?
How do I use the great successI've had?
To improve the lives of thepeople around me and the people
in the general community.
We've lost that.
Um, and I think we've lost it.
(18:18):
You know, we have somebody said,we're really an oligarchy.
We have a number of incrediblypower people, powerful people
who were removed from eventhinking about, um, the benefits
to society.
Leslie (18:32):
Right?
Jeff (18:33):
Somebody pointed out something to me I thought was
interesting.
We spend as a percentage ofgross domestic product, I think
half or two thirds less than wespent, you know, on a, on a
relative basis during theEisenhower era, um, when we
built the interstate highwaysystem and we built a lot of our
roads and bridges.
(18:54):
And the point was you had a lotof people who said, look, rather
than spend money on the publicgood.
From just infrastructure, giveme that money back in tax cuts.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, and we've done that.
And so I think you, you know,uh, my favorite, I'm getting
kind of away from purpose, butmaybe not, maybe this ties in.
Um, my favorite statement from alaw professor 50 years ago was
(19:18):
he said, look, the greatestpolitical system in the world's
ever known is a democracy.
The greatest economic system theworld's ever known is free
market capitalism.
But over time, in a free market.
Capitalist, uh, democracy, youwill have people who win so
much, um, and they will keepwinning and they'll, and they'll
(19:38):
allocate more of their winningsto keep the rules such that they
win more.
Mm-hmm.
And everybody else sort of fallsa little bit behind.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I use it, the, the, theexample of sort of the old frogs
in a, in boiling water.
It slowly boils.
I'm sure you've heard thatanalogy before where, um, and
(19:58):
that and that pretty soon peoplerealize that they're falling
behind and they're angry.
I think that's where thiscountry is today.
Yeah.
You look, you look at on a, on aTrump voter on the right or a
Sanders voter on the left, andthey look at the system and they
say, the system's rigged againstme.
And if you look at the economicdata where you've siphon so much
(20:20):
to the very, very top, um.
You know, they're right.
Um, that we, the, the economicdistribution of this country is
dramatically different than itwas 50 years ago.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And I think the problem is thepeople on the very top look at
the world and say, now myproblem, my purpose is me, me,
(20:41):
make more money for me.
Mm-hmm.
That's all my purpose is.
I have to make more money forme.
What.
Improving society.
What about, you know, educatingnot my problem.
My problem is if I've got$2billion, it is my divine right
to get four.
Leslie (20:57):
Mm-hmm.
Jeff (20:58):
And that's, and that scares me more than anything
about where this country is
Leslie (21:03):
today.
Mm-hmm.
What do we do?
'cause I do think that this is atopic of purpose.
You know, purpose is aboutcollective.
Um.
Uh, high tide rises all ships,you know, wellbeing.
Jeff (21:16):
Wellbeing, yeah.
That, that's at least, you know,in my flawed definition, that's
how, what is the collectivewellbeing of society.
Leslie (21:25):
Yes.
Okay.
So what do we do?
What can we do to shift thatmindset, shift that mentality?
Jeff (21:35):
Well, as my professor said throughout history, um, I.
The frightening thing is that'sbeen solved by revolutions.
Mm-hmm.
That's a little frightening to,that's a lot frightening to me.
Um, but the idea is to infuseeverybody, including those at
the very top, but includingthose, you know, all throughout
(21:56):
society is saying, look, how dowe make this a better place?
Mm-hmm.
And I, and I am, I wanna make mylife better.
Um, but I sort ofintellectually.
Understand that if I makeeverybody's life better, we have
a better society.
And I think we've gotten awayfrom that, Leslie.
Mm-hmm.
I don't think people thinkanything about, you know, any,
(22:19):
anybody but themselves.
Mm.
We sort of, sort of demonizethose who don't look like us.
Leslie (22:25):
Mm-hmm.
Jeff (22:25):
Uh, and that, and that becomes pretty frightening.
Leslie (22:30):
Yeah.
Well, and going back to where westarted, one of the things that,
that, that you're doing throughbusiness is instilling these 11
commandments.
Right.
Which is a way of living.
A way of being.
Right.
Right.
Um, so that's one thing thatbusiness can do.
'cause I do think, personally, Ido think business has a, a big
(22:53):
role in solving the problem.
Jeff (22:56):
Absolutely.
Right.
Um, and
Leslie (22:58):
um, and
Jeff (22:59):
I'm very proud here in Indiana that we have some
wonderful major companies thatreally do think about the
Betterment society.
Mm-hmm.
And I've, I've seen that inprojects I've worked on with
them.
Leslie (23:11):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Any other advice that you havefor those that are listening on
how we can shift our mindset tobe more collective and, and the
role that purpose plays withthat?
Jeff (23:23):
Well, again, I think try to, try to step back.
Um, and look at the largersociety, you know, step back
and, because we all get caughtin our own rut, how am I doing
today for me and my family?
Mm-hmm.
How, you know, and that's,that's natural that sometimes
(23:43):
step back and say, you know, weall, when we all succeed and we
all move forward as a society,we're all better off.
Leslie (23:53):
That's right.
Awesome.
Anything left unsaid on thetopic of purpose in the
workplace.
Jeff (23:59):
I hope this has been helpful.
I've enjoyed it.
Leslie (24:02):
Thank you very much.
I've enjoyed it as well, andappreciate you being on the
show.
Thank you.
Jeff (24:08):
Thanks, Leslie.
My pleasure.
Thank you.
Leslie (24:10):
Jeff's reflection on how society has become more and more
self-absorbed has really stuckwith me.
This constant obsession withwanting more and more riddles,
corporate America andconsumerism.
But what I've come to realizethrough Purpose Project is that
more will never be enough.
(24:30):
More will never create a lifefilled with purpose and meaning.
Because a life filled withpurpose and meaning has nothing
to do with self and everythingto do with connection.
A life filled with purpose andmeaning is about connecting to
ourselves.
(24:51):
Connecting to each other andconnecting to the environment
that sustains us.
This is why Purpose Projectexists.
To help remind us that to live alife of purpose, we have to have
connection Jeff, thank you forbeing on Purpose Project, and
(25:11):
thanks to all of you for tuningin.
Purpose Project is brought toyou for education and for
entertainment purposes.
This podcast is not intended toreplace the advice that you
(25:32):
would receive from a licensedtherapist or doctor or any other
qualified professional.
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