February 22, 2024 • 48 mins
Did you ever wonder what makes humans truly thrive? Dan and Catherine welcome Dr. Pam King to Purposeful Lab to answer that very question. Dr. King is a professor of applied developmental science and the executive director of the Thrive Center for Human Development at Fuller Seminary. With evolutionary psychology and theology as a guide, Dr. King equips one with the tools and inspiration to find purpose and thrive in today's world.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Purposeful Lab, a Modja Center podcast.
I'm Catherine Hadrow, with myco-host, dr Dan Kiebler.
Dan, you set us up nicely inepisode one this season, talking
about the evolution of thehuman brain.
Today we're going to hear froma psychologist's perspective.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Yeah, we haven't had a psychologist on the program
yet.
In particular, when we'retalking about human flourishing
and human purpose and meaning,psychology has got a lot to
offer, and so we'll be lookingat developmental psychology and
evolutionary psychology and seehow do those disciplines inform
what we know about the humanperson and give some light on
(00:39):
what it means to flourish.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
And our guest today is Dr Pam King.
She's the Peter L BensonProfessor of Applied
Developmental Science, sodevelopmental psychologist, in
the School of Psychology at theFuller Theological Seminary.
She's also Executive Directorof the Thrive Center for Human
Development, author of a numberof books.
We had a lot to talk about, alot of shared mission, I think
(01:02):
too, when it comes to purpose.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Yeah, there's a lot of overlap in terms of thriving
and purpose in her work and inwhat we're trying to do here.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Absolutely so.
With that, here's ourconversation with Dr Pam King.
Dr Pam King, thank you so muchfor traveling all the way from
California to join us.
We've been so excited to haveyou on the podcast.
So, as we get things kicked off, can you just tell us what
brought you to your work today,personally and professionally?
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Yes, and first off, thank you so much for having me
in your gracious hospitality.
It's really wonderful and anhonor to be here, thanks.
So I am the Executive Directorof the Thrive Center for Human
Development that is at FullerTheological Seminary, which is a
multi-denominational ProtestantSeminary in Pasadena,
california, and I'm on thefaculty of the School of
(01:51):
Psychology there as an applieddevelopmental scientist, and my
journey there was somewhatprecarious, and especially in
that these aren't necessarilythese were not known fields of
study of doing human thrivingwhen I was born and trying to
figure out what I was going todo with my life eventually, and
so my life professionally hasbeen one of a volley between
(02:14):
psychology and theology ofreally asking questions about
what does it mean for humans tothrive?
I was first in seminary.
A friend asked me.
He said, pam, what pushes yourbuttons?
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Like in a good way, not like you know your kids when
they don't do their homework?
Speaker 3 (02:32):
No, but what pushes your buttons and makes you light
up?
And very spontaneously I saidenabling people to become who
God created them to be.
And I heard myself say it and Iwas like yes, that's it.
And so I had this sense ofclarity about that call and it
was about 26.
But then, as I got deeper intomy Masters of Divinity, I
(02:54):
actually came away with morequestions about how that occurs
rather than more answers.
And so then I started to turnto psychology because, like,
okay, the Bible gives us lots ofideals and there's lots of
claims about a fullness of lifein Christ and how we are to live
our lives to glorify God, buthow people change and become
that remain just questions.
(03:16):
So then I started studyingpsychology more, yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
So what do you see like the fruit of studying both
psychology from the lens oftheology?
And studying theology with thelens of psychology.
How do they enrich each other.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
Great question, and again, I got into this not
knowing anything, but over timewhat I've really seen is that
disciplines like theology orphilosophy are more speak to
normative claims on our life.
They offer what I like to referto as a telos like as a goal or
a purpose for human life, andthey make these ultimate claims
(03:54):
that the sciences aren'tnecessarily so well-versed to do
.
I find the sciences and I'mmore of a social scientist,
knowing you're a naturalscientist as being more
descriptive of describing whatis so often in psychology or
sociology we might describeconventional trends, what people
(04:14):
say, what people think, notnecessarily what should be Right
.
Okay.
So the theology provides a lensto go what should be and
psychology helps understand howto get there.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Yeah, You've mentioned, you're the executive
director of the Thrive Centerfor Human Development and your
work has contributedsignificantly to our
understanding of what it meansto thrive.
What is your definition ofthriving truly, and what do you
think are the majormisconceptions about that?
A?
Speaker 3 (04:42):
great question.
So the word thrive I have foundlike who doesn't want to thrive
, like it sounds good, it rollsoff the tongue nicely.
In California we have KaiserHealth, there's lots of Thrive
billboards and bus signs.
But what does it mean?
Yeah, so for me, with muchcareful study, both
psychologically, philosophicallyand theologically, I've come to
(05:03):
understand thriving as a livinglife on purpose.
And to unpack that a bit, as adevelopmental psychologist, I
understand thriving as anadaptive growth process.
So it's not linear, but it's anadaptive growth process towards
living out one's purpose, whichis found in our individual
(05:24):
uniqueness, our relationalityand connection with others and
our living out our deepestaspirations.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Yeah, and determining what purpose is and thriving.
That requires someunderstanding of what it is,
what is a human person and whatwe meant for, right, exactly,
and how does psychology helpwith that?
Because it doesn't necessarilytell you the goal of human life,
right?
Speaker 3 (05:50):
Exactly Right, it does not.
So in psychology it'sinteresting developmental
psychology.
Actually, there are some greattools because, from a
developmental perspective, wewant to see systems continue and
individuals continue.
So we want to have a thriving,an ongoing thriving trajectory,
(06:11):
which calls to mind that we needto understand how individuals
differentiate and grow intotheir strengths, address their
needs, but they also have tolive relational, and so much of
the normative westerndevelopmental psychology is
about individual development andactually doesn't emphasize the
importance of relationaldevelopment, how we cultivate
(06:34):
intimacy, how generosity,compassion, these virtues that
sustain relational life and thatethical sense that keeps in a
very dynamic way the individualand system.
A good fit With our climatecrisis right now.
Humans have disregarded theneeds of the environment.
(06:54):
That's not obviouslysustainable, so we need these
correctives.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Yeah, you have this, the reciprocating self of the
book that you wrote.
So that is, you know, lookingat how humans interact with
other people to bring out humanflourishing.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
Is that?
Yeah, so the notion of thereciprocating self started as
when I started teachingdevelopmental psychology in a
Christian context we're on aquarter system, so 10 weeks to
do the lifespan Okay, cradle tothe grave or womb to the tomb.
And I thought, like of all thetheories and research out there,
what is the best to teach?
(07:35):
And then I thought, in thecontext of a faith-based
seminary, like what is God'sperspective on human development
?
And first with a huge grain ofhumility, knowing I won't
ultimately know, but that's whenI did actually turn back to my
theology and ask so what is itto be made in the image of God?
And I'm understanding that fromkind of a tunetarian and
(07:59):
Christological theologicalanthropology, wanting to
understand how people becomelike Christ and conform to the
image of God and Christ and thenhow they also might be made in
the image of the Trinity, asunique persons that live in
unity.
So that started to become afilter for how I understood
positive developmentalpsychology.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
And I think it's worth mentioning.
You're an ordained minister inthe Presbyterian Church and you
know that lens really comesthrough and contributes greatly
to your work.
You know we mentioned you'reabove the reciprocating self,
your author of several books,including.
You co-wrote a book calledThriving with Stone Age Minds,
evolutionary Psychology,christian Faith and the Quest
(08:41):
for Human Flourishing.
We've talked some aboutdevelopmental psychology.
What is evolutionary psychology?
Speaker 3 (08:47):
So evolutionary psychology is a discipline or
the study of human behavior andcognition through the lens of
biological evolution, whichlooks at how humans might be
born with certain dispositions.
Like we have biological traits,but do we have biology that
(09:08):
might impact how we think, actand feel?
And so, from an evolutionaryperspective, we know our brains
were wired to help us survive.
So, fight or flight, like ifthere's an attacker, we run, and
over time, though our needs,our evolutionary niche, our
(09:28):
environments have changed, andso our thinking and our
psychological habits haveevolved over time.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Yeah, one of the things here we've talked about
previously on the show is thatthe human development right it
seems to be different, moreextended than other primates and
other hominids, and it's alsomore relational In a sense we
come out wired for relationalityright.
Absolutely, and that's part ofour evolutionary psychology.
(09:56):
If we don't do that, we don'tflourish, in a sense.
So what do you see in terms?
Of what that tells us abouthuman life, human flourishing
and so forth.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
Yes.
So we not only take thistheological ideal of becoming
reciprocating humans, but thatwhen we look from an
evolutionary, psychologicalperspective, we are
fundamentally relational.
Humans do not survive, let alonethrive, without relationships.
So a lot of the infant scienceor attachment science really
(10:29):
demonstrates how babies, out ofthe get-go, need to be
relationally attuned to.
You think babies don't havemuch of a conversation or they
don't need much attention, butthey do.
They need to be mirrored.
And when we talk aboutattunement, we may not have a
conversation, but if a baby'supset we might mirror, we might
(10:51):
let them know we see them byjust bouncing them to the rhythm
of their upsetness or pat themto soothe them, feed them when
we know they're hungry.
But there are thesereciprocating responses that
allow an infant, at a lessconscious level, to know that
they are seen and that theymatter and that safety, that
(11:14):
holding environment that'screated by a caregiver, is
absolutely essential for thesynapses of the brain to connect
so that the brain can actuallybuild and grow.
And when we find when childrendon't have that or babies don't
have that, their brains actuallydon't grow and they have very
significant cognitive andpersonality development delays.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
I think that's fascinating.
Can you speak a little bit moreabout the impact of neglect,
really?
And not having that one-on-oneconnection at a young age, and
is there a way to repair thatdown the road?
Speaker 3 (11:47):
That's a beautiful question.
Yes, so we know these optimalenvironments in which a baby
needs to be tended to, and thiscan get very political in terms
of how people parent if thebaby's sleeping well.
So we're going to stay away fromall those issues, because
really all people are unique andbabies and parents have
(12:09):
different needs.
An older psychologist namedDonald Winickott has a great
phrase that I love.
He talked about the good enoughmother, and so today we might
think of the good enoughcaregiver, realizing that we
can't be there for absolutelyevery need, gurgle, whim of a
baby, but that some frustrationis actually really important to
(12:32):
develop it because that'sreality and a baby eventually
needs to learn how toself-soothe.
But initially babies really needto wrap around care just to be
able to physiologically grow.
If they don't, the braindoesn't develop as it should and
that can result in.
(12:54):
I'll back up and say the fieldof infant mental health is very
nascent, very hominid, and inone of the ways that clinical
psychologists or scientistsunderstand infant mental health
is through the nervous system.
So some babies may be moresensitive to smell or motion or
(13:18):
audible sound or being held, andso we can see how infants are
doing regulating when they have,I guess within normalcy,
reactions to stimulation, to thedifferent senses.
And so some babies, if they'renot cared for sufficiently, the
nervous system gets out of luck,so the limbic system could
(13:41):
become hypoactive or hyperactive.
So those are just all things toconsider.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
So there seems to be.
In modern age we've got atotally different environment
than, say, with the brain, thehuman brain that merged in the
context.
So what do you think is one ofthe most difficult aspects of
being a brain?
And a person growing up in thismodern environment that's
(14:11):
making it more difficultflourish or to become your true
self as opposed to theenvironment.
We're sort of native to right.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
That is a really pressing question and I think
the jury's out.
But I think this is whereevolutionary psychology right
offers some perspective.
And you may be familiar withDunbar's number.
Robin Dunbar was ananthropologist who looked at
different primates and theirrelational capacity and has
projected that onto the humanrelational capacity and has
(14:42):
observed that humans' capacityfor relationality is limited,
that we really can hold fiveloved ones near and dear and
that we can actually be close to15 people that are good friends
.
And there comes concentriccircles, but we somewhat max out
(15:02):
at 150 people that we can know.
But we might be able torecognize more than that.
So in our modern world, when weare flooded with likes and
friends and follows, what is thequality of those relationships
and how are those helpful forour social media enterprise or
(15:23):
helpful for our developing mind?
Speaker 2 (15:25):
And so we kind of neglect those deeper
relationships for thesuperficial ones, or we try to
have too many deep relationshipsthat they all never actually we
get burned out too probably.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
I mean, I think Jesus had 12 disciples.
I feel like, okay, that's agood number.
No, keep it at that.
No, that is absolutelyfascinating, and I know there
are different theories that also, I think, reveal a lot about
the human brain, like theattachment theory, and you also
mentioned meaning making, andadolescence.
Can you?
Speaker 3 (15:57):
speak on that Absolutely, and I'd love to go
back because I think I leftthings on a pessimistic note
regarding, like infants, if theydon't get care and we have
technology into relationships.
There is hope that the humanbrain is, as you know, malleable
and plastic.
It is an extraordinary creationand the good news is that that
(16:20):
deep attunement in that work,those experiences can't really
remediate brains Maybe not 100%in cases of severe neglect but
the brain goes.
It continues to grow throughoutthe lifespan, new synapses are
being forged, but especially inadolescence there's a huge
(16:40):
period of brain growth and thoseare really wonderful moments
where parents can step in,caring adults and I'm going to
get to your question and otherscan really do that attunement
and care for young people.
We need that in later life andin our marriages.
We need to be seen, we need tobe known, we need to know that
we matter and when we experiencelove like our brain relaxes.
(17:05):
We can actually be and becomemore ourselves in the experience
of love.
So that is extraordinary newswhich is thriving, which is
thriving.
Exactly, exactly.
So, then, with technology.
I think if we use technologynot to dilute our relationships
but to distill our relationshipsand those that matter, that can
(17:29):
be so effective.
And there's different purposesfor audiences in getting your
important podcast out, but thoseare deep, reciprocal
relationships.
And then sort of meaning making.
Really recent science,especially pioneered by Mary
Hallen in Mordino Yeung at theRocier School of Education at
USC back in California, is doingreally extraordinary work
(17:53):
looking at how young people makemeaning and how that impacts
their brain.
We have this default modenetwork in our brain that tends
to go towards when we're notusing.
It can go towards anxiety,ruminates, can go towards those
things from an evolutionaryperspective that we had to be
preoccupied with in earlier days.
(18:15):
And she has shown that whenyoung people intentionally
reflect on abstract beliefs andhow their implications for the
world like what should theyvalue, what should they do, what
should be their goals when theydo that and think about,
reflect on the implications morebroadly, that actually begins
(18:40):
to repurpose the default modenetwork and lay down sources of
room in their mind.
And why this is relational isthat we're finding that kids
don't necessarily do that ontheir own, but when they have a
caring adult who can comealongside them and say Catherine
, so you've started this podcastand what have you enjoyed most
(19:03):
about it?
Or what have you valued and howis that helpful for people
beyond you?
Speaker 1 (19:10):
So is it even just that act of asking questions and
giving someone the ability tojust ponder and think on a
practical relational standpoint?
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Yeah, these deeper questions that aren't yes, are
no answers, but they gotta thinkthrough.
And like what am I doing?
Why am I feeling the way I'mfeeling?
You could see that with youngpeople in the inner circle Now,
almost the default is no, yes, Idon't want to, but you have to
pull them to develop that depthof person.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
And what's so exciting is you can take a young
person if they might have grownup with a lot of adversity, not
necessarily have a lot ofattentive parenting or parents
that are working and stressed,to be able to come alongside
them and help them co-createthis sense of meaning and what
is in values, and help scaffoldthose into goals.
(20:00):
Mary Helen's work is showingover time that these kids are
doing better in school.
They are more purposeful,there's sense of confidence, but
it's extraordinary research.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
And so it doesn't necessarily have to come from a
parent figure, just someone tocome alongside them.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
Who's trustworthy respected, who has that sense of
connection with another.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Yeah, it seems that we get you know, I think you're
looking at our, the way we makesense of the world, like 10,000
years ago you, you had to be intune with your environment.
Oh, sure, not gonna surviveright now.
I think you can just chill likeI'm not gonna throw you right
now by.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Uber eats my meal.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
You know, like in a you know you be cold tonight, or
oh, here's a storm coming,where we really had to be in
tune with our environment.
Now we soon just Let that goand we have all this space
cognitively, to like, say,ruminate on whatever that heck
we want, and we don't seem tohave Filter or guidance.
Oh, what should I be doing withmy, my mind, now that they
(21:06):
don't have to worry about whereI'm gonna, where I'm gonna sleep
, as much as we used to?
Speaker 3 (21:10):
exactly.
So I would say like, from Umhistorical perspective, we are
really an interesting thresholdwhere we have not the luxury of
Thinking about other things,because if we don't become
purposeful, because we're notusing all that energy to survive
and figure out like I had towalk in the cold less night to
find food- Like I'm from LA.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
How do I do that there's snow on the ground?
Speaker 3 (21:33):
It's seven to my body , but ten here and everything's
close.
Where am I going?
We don't have to think likethat.
Right yeah, but the reality is,if we don't repurpose our
brains, if we don't find meaning, if we don't start to pursue
Purpose, we languish.
Yeah, that is not thriving andwe need to really repurpose our
(21:54):
brains.
We need to adapt our thinkingto not rely on being driven by
fear and anxiety, like ourbrains, kind of, were originally
created for.
Yeah we need to purpose them andhave them not driven by fear,
but motivated towards purposeand motivated by love and that
takes work?
Speaker 1 (22:10):
It is probably not.
Is that instinctual for us ashumans, or kind of
counterintuitive?
Speaker 3 (22:16):
I'd love to study that.
Sure, yeah, you know, I thinkwe are inherently and we're
gonna get into some Theologicalwaters of like we are wired for
goodness and but we also havethese propensities to be
projected Right and, and it'sreally important as our
environments change, as yourname and dad that we have to
(22:39):
Recognize how our psychologicalcapacities need to adapt to
those environments.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
It's a thing about the human brains that we can
reflect upon.
We have this ability to reflectupon what we're doing and to
recognize our evolutionarybiases.
You know, we think about likethe in-group, out-group bias was
.
It is like being distrustfulpeople you don't know could be
beneficial in a hunter-gatherersociety, but now we have the
ability to say, okay, well,that's maybe not helpful.
(23:05):
Now, not, maybe it's nothelpful.
So sure, yeah, but.
But, but we at least have theability to think about our
cognitive states.
Why do I have that?
Okay, I recognize that bias,now what am I gonna do about it?
Or, like you say, I recognizeokay, this is the way I'm
comfortable doing things.
But why is that?
(23:25):
What?
Was there something beyond that?
You know, and it does.
It takes cognitive work to dothat.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
Well in.
From an evolutionaryPsychological perspective, that
ability to reflect is one of thekey distinctions between us and
another species right and ourability to regulate Right, so we
can regulate our emotion.
You know, anger management,mindfulness, meditation, prayer
all help us calm down and Create, put us in a space where we're
(23:53):
calm enough to reflect and makethose connections with like, how
am I fitting with myenvironment?
How is my time spent withtechnology helping me thrive or
not?
But so that regulation and thatreflection is a really
essential to humans continuedpsychological adaption.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Well, and even continuing on that point, in
your book thriving with stoneage minds, you are combining,
you know, evolutionarypsychology with a biblical world
view.
How do you approach, then, thiscomplete picture of what it
means to be human?
Speaker 3 (24:28):
I am a firm believer and a creator of this universe
that is beyond my apprehension.
But but to that I feel like, asa human and one called to
continue or to contribute toGod's ongoing work in this world
, I I feel very called to drawon the tools and experiences
I've been given.
So, as a social scientist, as awannabe theologian, how do I
(24:52):
Best understand the enterpriseof being human?
And so, for me again, theologyoffers that talas, those ideas,
those ultimate calls on her life, a vision of a life that can
move us forward as humans, onein which we are called the
median Christ.
I'm very influenced by we're aslavul theology of the
(25:14):
flourishing of all creation.
He's at the Yale Center forfailure and and and so then, how
?
Then psychology helps meunderstand again how humans can
change or not to Participatemore fully in God's ongoing work
, and so that's where I reallylove having this descriptive
(25:36):
science that really helps usunderstand and transformation
and change, and and also these,you know, ultimate vision of
what life could and should be.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
yeah, we often talk about the limits of science, and
it sounds like there are limitsto psychology too and what it
explains about what it means tobe human.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Yeah, yeah, so if you're looking at, you know, at
the church, for example, or itas a Minister, like, what is it
that that you know, insightsfrom psychology that you've seen
that translate to help you?
Yeah, in terms of helpingpeople flourish, right,
wonderful, great.
Yeah, what houses help you onthe ground?
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Yeah, so very much.
I think this is personal, butlike, romans 12, 1 and 2 have
been one of the most compellingverses in my life of like Really
wanting to offer my life as aliving sacrifice.
You know it's holy and caseinto God.
And so, you know, I, as a youngperson, turned to the church to
know how?
(26:34):
How do I do that?
How do I more fully offer mylife?
How do I become More righteousin Christ?
How do I become more generative?
How do I be faithful to who?
Who can is as different fromwho you guys are, and so I don't
see the church answering thatquestion.
I I think in my own personalexperience, my youth group did
(26:54):
have a lot of Extraordinaryexperiences of service and
mission and leadership thatallowed me to discover some of
my gifts.
But I would love to see thechurch broadly take seriously
activating God's people andEnabling God's people to call
and to thrive, and I I honestlyunderstand Discipleship as an
(27:15):
invitation to thrive.
And I feel like often and I canspeak from more my experience
in the church, you know, it wasall about Jesus.
The symbol of Christianity isthe cross, not not an eye.
So everything you should doshould be about Jesus, not you.
Yeah, and, and I took that, butI buried a lot of me and I
think there became almost shameof like, oh, I shouldn't stay
(27:35):
out and so if I excelled and gotattention, I felt a lot
shouldn't have all right, yeah,yeah, yeah, a lot of attention
about that and and so my workwith the reciprocating self, and
I just loved doing this with mystudents.
As, like you know, god made useach unique.
We all have strengths and giftsspiritual gifts, however you
want to formulate that andthat's a really important part
(27:56):
of our purpose.
He's right, how do we cultivatethose and be a good Steward of
them?
But they're not for our ownends.
You know.
We do that with others and Forothers and for God's purposes,
yeah, and so I really try toencourage, you know, hope that
the church can find ways that wecan worship and exalt God and
Confess and participate insacraments but also have
(28:19):
experiences where people areactivated and their giftedness
is a firm too.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Yeah, yeah, it's as a Catholic that said something
that the church is sort of inthe 20th century, sort of focus
on this universal call forHoliness and the personal
vocation.
That is something that that weneed to draw out, that everybody
and every walk of life hasSomething that they need to do
to flourish that nobody else isgoing to do.
And once you recognize aboutnobody can replace me or Nobody
(28:47):
can replace Catherine.
No, we can replace Pam.
What you have to do, it givesMore.
There's no way to have a bettersense of purpose and meaning
because you're irreplaceable andwhat you're gonna do.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
I I keep thinking back to, so I'm named after st
Catherine of Sienna, oh, and herfamous quote is you know, be
who you are meant to be, and youwill set the world ablaze?
And I feel like that kind ofcaptures everything you're
talking about of You've definedout who is it that you, uniquely
, were designed to be living.
That thrive, and actually, isthat thriving?
Is that, holiness?
Speaker 3 (29:20):
I think that is when it's done with and for Right and
I believe within four is arather Jesuit phrase.
I have a, and that's the nameof the podcast that I recently
started.
But it is so often in the US,in the Western culture, when you
say St Catherine's beautifulquote, people often take a blaze
for myself in my own glory.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Right.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
And they forget or don't have the context to think
no, there's a greater glory forthis.
And when we pursue happiness,our own life satisfaction, that
only lasts so long.
It's a dead end straight reallyquickly.
But it is when we are doingthat with others and share
(30:02):
ourselves with others, and arethere psychological benefits to
that as well?
Oh, yes, because you need thatlove to really be and become
yourself.
So when you pursue your ownends, your own purpose, outside
of sharing it with others orcultivating it with others, you
won't be as effective becauseyou really need that love to
(30:23):
just unfold as who you are.
Otherwise you have aperformance attitude more than a
purpose.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Yeah, there seems to be a lot of psychology that
looks at.
The people are morepsychologically flourishing if
they recognize something beyondthemselves that they're drawn to
, and recognizing your selflimits and there's something
greater out there than youAbsolutely, and even secular
psychologists are looking at it.
I say there's a study buddy.
(30:50):
I went to UC Berkeley andthere's this eucalyptus trees
right outside.
I went about these people willstare at these eucalyptus trees,
he's huge.
And do that for 60 seconds andthey just have this sense of
connection with somethinggreater, and this wonder.
And that's only on a sort of asecular level.
(31:11):
You add the wonder of God andrealizing you're meant for him
and that you are have thatmeaning.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Called just something more.
Called just something more.
We all need that, and if wedon't have that, we don't lure
psychologically, spiritually,absolutely anyway, you've
already kind of mentioned somenames, but you really are
pioneering, fascinating work andI'm so grateful for that.
Is there someone who inspiresyou academically and someone who
(31:41):
inspires you from a faithperspective?
Speaker 3 (31:43):
Those are wow so many .
An interdisciplinary personwho's been on the planet 55
years, has had a lot ofinfluences.
It's interesting in thisconversation someone that
academically is coming to mindone of my beloved mentors, rich
Lerner, who's a developmentalscientist at Tufts University
(32:06):
and on the Pontifical Academy ofLife with the Vatican, has made
huge impressions on me and Richis brilliant.
But he has an incredible abilityto embrace development and the
human experience in all itscomplexity, and so often
(32:27):
scientists like to bereductionistic and get to what
are the mechanisms or theaspects that are causing change.
And Rich, really, he has thecapacity to consider an
individual's particularity andrecognize like we might all
thrive slightly differently.
He can take the complexity ofthe goodness of fit between an
individual and the many systemsin which their life is in.
(32:51):
And this is so important fordevelopmental science, because
we have abilities, we havedisabilities, we have genetic
predispositions, we havedifferent experiences of nurture
that cause those geneticpredispositions to be expressed
differently.
And how do we factor all ofthat in?
And Rich also has just suchrespect for transcendence, for
(33:16):
that which is beyond thematerial realm, and I've
appreciated his example that wedon't necessarily need to name
that's transcendence.
And now from someone with aChristian worldview like my own,
I will, I can name in my lifethat the experience of love and
grace in Christ enables me toknow God, the Father, through
(33:41):
the Spirit, in a profound way,that those beliefs, like just
reflecting on them, gives methat experience of awe, that the
emotion of awe and gratitudethat someone might have from
looking at a eucalyptus tree.
So, it has so much to do withthe meaning we ascribe those
situations and we do know from aresearch perspective, when
(34:02):
people apply more sacred will toexperience such transcendence,
it has more ordering power ontheir identity, on their life
narrative, on their motivationsand on their behaviors.
So sacred narratives are reallyimportant for people and that's
where, like in our world today,there's a lot of them, and I
(34:23):
really think we need tore-invite people into faith in a
way that activates them andgives them life, not dampens
them down, which I think hasbeen so many people's wrong
experience.
And that they experience thegoodness, the love, the
transcendence that really canenable people to become more
(34:47):
fully, just as we're starting toget towards the end here.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
if you could maybe just sum up what your
reflections on human purpose,are in terms of what?
Your life work has been, andhow somebody comes into you and
says, Pam, I'm struggling withmy faith.
One is my purpose?
Obviously everybody's unique,but how do you talk about that?
Speaker 3 (35:11):
Well, I think at a really practical level and I
could get into if the person isreally struggling with their
faith.
I may not give a biblicaltheological answer because
psychological I've talked aboutthose, but I think the science
of purpose.
One of my other greatinfluencers in my life is Bill
Damon, and it's hard to thinkabout rich without Bill.
And Bill Damon is at Stanfordand is the director of the
(35:36):
Center on Adolescence and hasabsolutely pioneered in the
psychology of purpose.
And Bill puts his stake in theground and says that purpose is
truly purpose when it's a noblepurpose, and so we can.
The research breaks down thatpurpose.
This concept of purpose iseffective when people consider
purpose as an enduring life goal.
(35:57):
So meaning is what's meaningful, but purpose is actionable.
So your life goal might be toenable people to know God more
fully through science I'mguessing, I don't know.
So you can do that in theclassroom and research and a
podcast.
So what is your enduring lifegoal?
Speaker 1 (36:14):
And then that goal has to be meaningful to yourself
, is it almost like your ownpersonal mission statement?
Speaker 3 (36:21):
and having that help.
Yes, and often my studentscoming.
They're in grad school so it'svoluntary, but their parents
might want them there, or a lotof our Pacific Rim.
We have a ton of Asian studentswho often come with a family
purpose and a lessdifferentiated individual
purpose and that can be powerful.
(36:41):
But just knowing, am I pursuingpurpose, my purpose that's
meaningful to me, or is it apurpose that someone else put on
you?
Put on you yeah familyexpectation, community
expectation, congregationalexpectation, approval.
So the actual goal needs to bemeaningful itself, but it needs
(37:03):
to contribute to the worldbeyond yourself.
And so, again, if it's justme-oriented purpose, that's not
a true purpose.
But when purpose is beyond theself, when it benefits others,
then you really reappsychological benefits.
And we find that when peoplepursue purpose in this way, they
actually end up connecting withmore like-minded people.
(37:24):
So, if we're talking about ayoung person, they find mentors
or peers that can support themin the journey or wrestle with
them in that journey.
They become more clear abouttheir priorities, which, in a
world when we have 500,000options, knowing your priorities
in values is essential.
So I think understandingpurpose in that way, is really
(37:49):
helpful.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
For someone who might be there listening to this,
asking okay, but how do I findmy purpose?
I don't even know where tostart there.
What do you want to say?
Speaker 3 (37:59):
This might be a surprising answer, but one of
the first ways people can dothis is to think about joy and
when they have in their life,experience the most profound joy
, like real joy, not just a buzzof happiness not just like that
was fantastic pizza, but likeno, it was great pizza, but it
was because I was with my kidsand my teenagers don't really
(38:23):
spend a lot of time with me, sothat was awesome.
So when we think about when weexperience joy, what we're doing
, the activities, the skillswe're using, that usually points
us to what we're passionateabout.
It also points us to the peoplethat we care most about.
So when you're thinking aboutpurpose, you want to identify
what are my strengths, mypassions, when do I feel most
(38:46):
alive and joyful and who are thepeople that I need in my life
that give me joy, and who arethe people that give me the most
joy to care for and serve?
And then, how does that alignwith how I'm trying to become
like Christ, like we don't wantto do this in an crazy way where
(39:06):
we're not experiencing balance,but when we're living out the
virtues that Christ modeled.
So, yeah, think about yourpassions think about people.
Think about those virtues andvalues that define your life.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
I'm thinking about it right now.
That's great.
I've heard that like people usethe term like blue flame almost
to be like.
It's like what you're hangingon like when do you feel the
most yourself?
And like alive, yes, and we'vegotten away from that.
Speaker 3 (39:35):
I don't know if you guys have this catechism, but
the first question is what isthe chief end of humankind?
And the response is to glorifyGod and enjoy God forever.
In the irony, the tomes writtenon sin in theological libraries
are massive and joy is verygood, so we need to re-create
(39:59):
joy.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
I love that.
I love that you know we're sograteful to have you on our
podcast.
You have your own podcast, asyou mentioned, with and for,
which is fascinating.
I've been able to listen to afew episodes already and you're
speaking with experts delvinginto psychological science but,
again, spiritual wisdom as well,as we've been doing here today.
Anything that you want to letour listeners and viewers know
(40:21):
about other projects that you'reworking on so they can connect
with you and see more of yourwork Absolutely, thank you so
much for asking me.
Speaker 3 (40:29):
Yeah, so new podcast three weeks out with and for and
we yeah.
So the conversations are reallydialogues between people who
really commit their lives tothriving, and when I say about
thriving, it's thriving for aflourishing world, not just my
own personal thriving.
So we have psychologicalperspectives,
neuro-psychological, sometheological.
(40:51):
We always have practices andthe hope is to really guide
people and offer practical stepsthat they can do daily to
pursue thriving.
That is not just spirituallyinformed or politically informed
, but that is actuallypsychological informed.
And to accompany that, onthethrowncenterorg we have a
(41:13):
host of resources, either audiopractices like guided
meditations.
We have like PDFs you candownload to remind you or to
journal a lot of reflections.
We, from the research from thelast two and a half decades,
have a lot of blogs and insightsto unpack, like what is purpose
, if you didn't quite catch that, or how do people make meaning,
(41:35):
or what is moral injury orattachment theory and what does
this have to do with daily life?
And lastly, I'll say recently Icreated a what I call a
spiritual health framework andthe reality is not all
spirituality is very healthy.
A lot of shaming, guilt drivenprobably, a lot of spirituality
(41:57):
in the Hitler movement, lots oftranscendence there, not good,
not to good ends.
So I have used not just my ownresearch but a lot of my work
and those of others to reallygraph out and identify six
facets of healthy spirituality,and if you want to hear more
about that, I'll recommendpeople to the website so we
don't have to get technical here.
(42:19):
But I hope that's reallyhelpful for leaders in
spiritually engaged contexts,whether it's a nonprofit or
clergy or like a school ministryor a hospital.
We have chaplains of likehelping people get in touch with
the vast psychologicalresources for resilience and for
(42:39):
throwing.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
Yeah, that's great Because, yeah, I think people
listen to this.
I want purpose, I want thriving, I want that.
How do I do that?
And because you said there's somany ways to go that in the
wrong way, that there areself-defeated.
So it's great to have all thoseresources.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
And it's great to have you here, Dr Pam King.
It's obvious you're living outyour mission and we're grateful
for that.
Speaker 3 (43:01):
Well, thank you.
It's really wonderful to bewith you, and for greater
purposes, so thank you so much Ithink I could have spoken to
Pam forever.
Speaker 1 (43:12):
It was just fascinating her research.
We've talked about how there'scommunity hardwired into our
brain, or need for community,and she seemed to really
underline that with her researchfrom psychologist perspective
as well.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
Yeah right, we're meant for community, meant for
others, and the interestingthing about how we really need
to have those deep relationshipswith four or five people and
then have meaningfulrelationships with the circles
on that.
But that's part and parcel,what allows us to be the person
we're meant to be.
Speaker 1 (43:42):
Right and again her research when it comes to what
it means to thrive, what itmeans to flourish.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
Yeah, it was interesting when she talked
about purpose.
Then there's this whole field,expanding field of the
psychology of purpose andmeaning.
And her point there was that thepurpose that you have has to go
beyond yourself, and this issomething that psychological
data seems to show.
My purpose is just to make alot of money.
It's not going to help meflourish.
Psychologically.
It's like my purpose has to befor others and to give my life
(44:11):
to others, which is it resonatesperfectly with what we are
supposed to be living in theChristian life.
So it's really interesting thesynergy between what the science
of purpose is, showing that weneed this transcendent,
something greater than ourselves, and that's exactly what we see
and what we've known throughour Christian faith for
millennia.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
Then we're the best version of ourselves to when
we're giving to others.
Yeah, so fascinating.
Grateful to have her on andthat she travels all the way
from California.
Okay, well, now I have somequestions for you, dan, as we
move into the office hoursegment of the show.
So there was a pretty strikingquote from Pope Francis.
In recent weeks he spoke outboldly against the practice of
(44:52):
surrogacy and surrogates.
He called the practicedeplorable, said it's a
commercialization of pregnancy.
He called it a global ban.
I think a lot of people werestruck by his choice of words
there, given its greatacceptance in our culture.
But I was curious on yourthoughts on that as a Catholic
biologist.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
Yeah, no, I think what he's giving us are a couple
things.
One, I think that surrogacy asa tendency to treat the woman's
body in a utilitarian fashion,that a woman's only useful as
she can provide the space for mybaby to grow, and so there's
sort of an economic issue thatgoes on in these poor, lower
(45:35):
class women, underclass womenare gonna be exploited.
So there's certainly that.
But there's also sort of thisrelationality that we've talked
about on the show today thatbegins in the womb right, and
that the placenta is arelational organ right.
It's a half of the baby andhalf of the mother and some of
the cells cross back and forthto that.
(45:57):
So that bond between mother andchild is beginning there in
utero and your sort of surrogacydisrupts that right in a sense.
So there's a certain thatrelational aspect of us is being
altered in a sense with that.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
There's ethical concerns, but again you're
speaking to biological concernsthat are there as well and to
that same point, speaking ofthat connection of the child and
mother in the womb and thenafterwards the connection with
mother and child.
There was a recent study whenit came to breastfeeding and
brain health.
Can you speak to those findings?
Speaker 2 (46:33):
Yeah, there was interesting studies showing what
they looked at was what'scalled the metabolome in the gut
.
So they looked at all of themetabolites in the gut of the
baby and they looked at thosethat were breastfeeding for six
months and those that weretaking formula and there's the
different metabolites in thereright.
So, for example, those thatbreastfeeding had higher amounts
(46:53):
of cholesterol, which is veryimportant for brain development
and brain health.
They saw a correlation betweenthe metabolites that were there,
the higher ones that were there, the breastfeeding and a
increased brain development atthe age of two.
So it's interesting.
Breast bulk is as a mammal.
In our biology it's produced,something that is very
(47:15):
beneficial.
There's a lot of research thatneeds to be done on this that
might be able to help, but it'snot surprising, giving that our
biology is set up forrelationality and for the
development of that brain, whichis the organ that really allows
us to have that relationality.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
I think that's totally the point of like not
making a judgment call onmothers and children, for
whatever reason you know can'tdo breastfeeding, but it speaks
to the biology and again, theimportance of that connection
between mother and child.
Speaker 2 (47:45):
Yeah, exactly how our biology seems to be designed to
get to a certain stage, acertain relationality.
Speaker 1 (47:50):
Yeah, well, fascinating conversation again
with Dr Pam King and with you,dan, as always, and I wanna
remind our viewers and listenersthat if you have a question
maybe you saw something that youwanna get Dan's take on, or
just a science question you'vebeen wondering you can submit
that question by emailing us atinfoatmodjustcentercom.
You can also leave us avoicemail at 949-257-2436.
(48:14):
Be sure to go tomodjustcentercom to see the
latest with what we're up tohere at Purposeful Lab and
subscribe on your favoritepodcast platform.
We'll see you next week.
Welcome to Purposeful Lab, a Modja Center podcast.
I'm Catherine Hadrow, with myco-host, dr Dan Kiebler.
Dan, you set us up nicely inepisode one this season, talking
about the evolution of thehuman brain.
Today we're going to hear froma psychologist's perspective.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Yeah, we haven't had a psychologist on the program
yet.
In particular, when we'retalking about human flourishing
and human purpose and meaning,psychology has got a lot to
offer, and so we'll be lookingat developmental psychology and
evolutionary psychology and seehow do those disciplines inform
what we know about the humanperson and give some light on
(00:39):
what it means to flourish.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
And our guest today is Dr Pam King.
She's the Peter L BensonProfessor of Applied
Developmental Science, sodevelopmental psychologist, in
the School of Psychology at theFuller Theological Seminary.
She's also Executive Directorof the Thrive Center for Human
Development, author of a numberof books.
We had a lot to talk about, alot of shared mission, I think
(01:02):
too, when it comes to purpose.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Yeah, there's a lot of overlap in terms of thriving
and purpose in her work and inwhat we're trying to do here.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Absolutely so.
With that, here's ourconversation with Dr Pam King.
Dr Pam King, thank you so muchfor traveling all the way from
California to join us.
We've been so excited to haveyou on the podcast.
So, as we get things kicked off, can you just tell us what
brought you to your work today,personally and professionally?
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Yes, and first off, thank you so much for having me
in your gracious hospitality.
It's really wonderful and anhonor to be here, thanks.
So I am the Executive Directorof the Thrive Center for Human
Development that is at FullerTheological Seminary, which is a
multi-denominational ProtestantSeminary in Pasadena,
california, and I'm on thefaculty of the School of
(01:51):
Psychology there as an applieddevelopmental scientist, and my
journey there was somewhatprecarious, and especially in
that these aren't necessarilythese were not known fields of
study of doing human thrivingwhen I was born and trying to
figure out what I was going todo with my life eventually, and
so my life professionally hasbeen one of a volley between
(02:14):
psychology and theology ofreally asking questions about
what does it mean for humans tothrive?
I was first in seminary.
A friend asked me.
He said, pam, what pushes yourbuttons?
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Like in a good way, not like you know your kids when
they don't do their homework?
Speaker 3 (02:32):
No, but what pushes your buttons and makes you light
up?
And very spontaneously I saidenabling people to become who
God created them to be.
And I heard myself say it and Iwas like yes, that's it.
And so I had this sense ofclarity about that call and it
was about 26.
But then, as I got deeper intomy Masters of Divinity, I
(02:54):
actually came away with morequestions about how that occurs
rather than more answers.
And so then I started to turnto psychology because, like,
okay, the Bible gives us lots ofideals and there's lots of
claims about a fullness of lifein Christ and how we are to live
our lives to glorify God, buthow people change and become
that remain just questions.
(03:16):
So then I started studyingpsychology more, yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
So what do you see like the fruit of studying both
psychology from the lens oftheology?
And studying theology with thelens of psychology.
How do they enrich each other.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
Great question, and again, I got into this not
knowing anything, but over timewhat I've really seen is that
disciplines like theology orphilosophy are more speak to
normative claims on our life.
They offer what I like to referto as a telos like as a goal or
a purpose for human life, andthey make these ultimate claims
(03:54):
that the sciences aren'tnecessarily so well-versed to do
.
I find the sciences and I'mmore of a social scientist,
knowing you're a naturalscientist as being more
descriptive of describing whatis so often in psychology or
sociology we might describeconventional trends, what people
(04:14):
say, what people think, notnecessarily what should be Right
.
Okay.
So the theology provides a lensto go what should be and
psychology helps understand howto get there.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Yeah, You've mentioned, you're the executive
director of the Thrive Centerfor Human Development and your
work has contributedsignificantly to our
understanding of what it meansto thrive.
What is your definition ofthriving truly, and what do you
think are the majormisconceptions about that?
A?
Speaker 3 (04:42):
great question.
So the word thrive I have foundlike who doesn't want to thrive
, like it sounds good, it rollsoff the tongue nicely.
In California we have KaiserHealth, there's lots of Thrive
billboards and bus signs.
But what does it mean?
Yeah, so for me, with muchcareful study, both
psychologically, philosophicallyand theologically, I've come to
(05:03):
understand thriving as a livinglife on purpose.
And to unpack that a bit, as adevelopmental psychologist, I
understand thriving as anadaptive growth process.
So it's not linear, but it's anadaptive growth process towards
living out one's purpose, whichis found in our individual
(05:24):
uniqueness, our relationalityand connection with others and
our living out our deepestaspirations.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Yeah, and determining what purpose is and thriving.
That requires someunderstanding of what it is,
what is a human person and whatwe meant for, right, exactly,
and how does psychology helpwith that?
Because it doesn't necessarilytell you the goal of human life,
right?
Speaker 3 (05:50):
Exactly Right, it does not.
So in psychology it'sinteresting developmental
psychology.
Actually, there are some greattools because, from a
developmental perspective, wewant to see systems continue and
individuals continue.
So we want to have a thriving,an ongoing thriving trajectory,
(06:11):
which calls to mind that we needto understand how individuals
differentiate and grow intotheir strengths, address their
needs, but they also have tolive relational, and so much of
the normative westerndevelopmental psychology is
about individual development andactually doesn't emphasize the
importance of relationaldevelopment, how we cultivate
(06:34):
intimacy, how generosity,compassion, these virtues that
sustain relational life and thatethical sense that keeps in a
very dynamic way the individualand system.
A good fit With our climatecrisis right now.
Humans have disregarded theneeds of the environment.
(06:54):
That's not obviouslysustainable, so we need these
correctives.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Yeah, you have this, the reciprocating self of the
book that you wrote.
So that is, you know, lookingat how humans interact with
other people to bring out humanflourishing.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
Is that?
Yeah, so the notion of thereciprocating self started as
when I started teachingdevelopmental psychology in a
Christian context we're on aquarter system, so 10 weeks to
do the lifespan Okay, cradle tothe grave or womb to the tomb.
And I thought, like of all thetheories and research out there,
what is the best to teach?
(07:35):
And then I thought, in thecontext of a faith-based
seminary, like what is God'sperspective on human development
?
And first with a huge grain ofhumility, knowing I won't
ultimately know, but that's whenI did actually turn back to my
theology and ask so what is itto be made in the image of God?
And I'm understanding that fromkind of a tunetarian and
(07:59):
Christological theologicalanthropology, wanting to
understand how people becomelike Christ and conform to the
image of God and Christ and thenhow they also might be made in
the image of the Trinity, asunique persons that live in
unity.
So that started to become afilter for how I understood
positive developmentalpsychology.
Speaker 1 (08:21):
And I think it's worth mentioning.
You're an ordained minister inthe Presbyterian Church and you
know that lens really comesthrough and contributes greatly
to your work.
You know we mentioned you'reabove the reciprocating self,
your author of several books,including.
You co-wrote a book calledThriving with Stone Age Minds,
evolutionary Psychology,christian Faith and the Quest
(08:41):
for Human Flourishing.
We've talked some aboutdevelopmental psychology.
What is evolutionary psychology?
Speaker 3 (08:47):
So evolutionary psychology is a discipline or
the study of human behavior andcognition through the lens of
biological evolution, whichlooks at how humans might be
born with certain dispositions.
Like we have biological traits,but do we have biology that
(09:08):
might impact how we think, actand feel?
And so, from an evolutionaryperspective, we know our brains
were wired to help us survive.
So, fight or flight, like ifthere's an attacker, we run, and
over time, though our needs,our evolutionary niche, our
(09:28):
environments have changed, andso our thinking and our
psychological habits haveevolved over time.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Yeah, one of the things here we've talked about
previously on the show is thatthe human development right it
seems to be different, moreextended than other primates and
other hominids, and it's alsomore relational In a sense we
come out wired for relationalityright.
Absolutely, and that's part ofour evolutionary psychology.
(09:56):
If we don't do that, we don'tflourish, in a sense.
So what do you see in terms?
Of what that tells us abouthuman life, human flourishing
and so forth.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
Yes.
So we not only take thistheological ideal of becoming
reciprocating humans, but thatwhen we look from an
evolutionary, psychologicalperspective, we are
fundamentally relational.
Humans do not survive, let alonethrive, without relationships.
So a lot of the infant scienceor attachment science really
(10:29):
demonstrates how babies, out ofthe get-go, need to be
relationally attuned to.
You think babies don't havemuch of a conversation or they
don't need much attention, butthey do.
They need to be mirrored.
And when we talk aboutattunement, we may not have a
conversation, but if a baby'supset we might mirror, we might
(10:51):
let them know we see them byjust bouncing them to the rhythm
of their upsetness or pat themto soothe them, feed them when
we know they're hungry.
But there are thesereciprocating responses that
allow an infant, at a lessconscious level, to know that
they are seen and that theymatter and that safety, that
(11:14):
holding environment that'screated by a caregiver, is
absolutely essential for thesynapses of the brain to connect
so that the brain can actuallybuild and grow.
And when we find when childrendon't have that or babies don't
have that, their brains actuallydon't grow and they have very
significant cognitive andpersonality development delays.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
I think that's fascinating.
Can you speak a little bit moreabout the impact of neglect,
really?
And not having that one-on-oneconnection at a young age, and
is there a way to repair thatdown the road?
Speaker 3 (11:47):
That's a beautiful question.
Yes, so we know these optimalenvironments in which a baby
needs to be tended to, and thiscan get very political in terms
of how people parent if thebaby's sleeping well.
So we're going to stay away fromall those issues, because
really all people are unique andbabies and parents have
(12:09):
different needs.
An older psychologist namedDonald Winickott has a great
phrase that I love.
He talked about the good enoughmother, and so today we might
think of the good enoughcaregiver, realizing that we
can't be there for absolutelyevery need, gurgle, whim of a
baby, but that some frustrationis actually really important to
(12:32):
develop it because that'sreality and a baby eventually
needs to learn how toself-soothe.
But initially babies really needto wrap around care just to be
able to physiologically grow.
If they don't, the braindoesn't develop as it should and
that can result in.
(12:54):
I'll back up and say the fieldof infant mental health is very
nascent, very hominid, and inone of the ways that clinical
psychologists or scientistsunderstand infant mental health
is through the nervous system.
So some babies may be moresensitive to smell or motion or
(13:18):
audible sound or being held, andso we can see how infants are
doing regulating when they have,I guess within normalcy,
reactions to stimulation, to thedifferent senses.
And so some babies, if they'renot cared for sufficiently, the
nervous system gets out of luck,so the limbic system could
(13:41):
become hypoactive or hyperactive.
So those are just all things toconsider.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
So there seems to be.
In modern age we've got atotally different environment
than, say, with the brain, thehuman brain that merged in the
context.
So what do you think is one ofthe most difficult aspects of
being a brain?
And a person growing up in thismodern environment that's
(14:11):
making it more difficultflourish or to become your true
self as opposed to theenvironment.
We're sort of native to right.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
That is a really pressing question and I think
the jury's out.
But I think this is whereevolutionary psychology right
offers some perspective.
And you may be familiar withDunbar's number.
Robin Dunbar was ananthropologist who looked at
different primates and theirrelational capacity and has
projected that onto the humanrelational capacity and has
(14:42):
observed that humans' capacityfor relationality is limited,
that we really can hold fiveloved ones near and dear and
that we can actually be close to15 people that are good friends
.
And there comes concentriccircles, but we somewhat max out
(15:02):
at 150 people that we can know.
But we might be able torecognize more than that.
So in our modern world, when weare flooded with likes and
friends and follows, what is thequality of those relationships
and how are those helpful forour social media enterprise or
(15:23):
helpful for our developing mind?
Speaker 2 (15:25):
And so we kind of neglect those deeper
relationships for thesuperficial ones, or we try to
have too many deep relationshipsthat they all never actually we
get burned out too probably.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
I mean, I think Jesus had 12 disciples.
I feel like, okay, that's agood number.
No, keep it at that.
No, that is absolutelyfascinating, and I know there
are different theories that also, I think, reveal a lot about
the human brain, like theattachment theory, and you also
mentioned meaning making, andadolescence.
Can you?
Speaker 3 (15:57):
speak on that Absolutely, and I'd love to go
back because I think I leftthings on a pessimistic note
regarding, like infants, if theydon't get care and we have
technology into relationships.
There is hope that the humanbrain is, as you know, malleable
and plastic.
It is an extraordinary creationand the good news is that that
(16:20):
deep attunement in that work,those experiences can't really
remediate brains Maybe not 100%in cases of severe neglect but
the brain goes.
It continues to grow throughoutthe lifespan, new synapses are
being forged, but especially inadolescence there's a huge
(16:40):
period of brain growth and thoseare really wonderful moments
where parents can step in,caring adults and I'm going to
get to your question and otherscan really do that attunement
and care for young people.
We need that in later life andin our marriages.
We need to be seen, we need tobe known, we need to know that
we matter and when we experiencelove like our brain relaxes.
(17:05):
We can actually be and becomemore ourselves in the experience
of love.
So that is extraordinary newswhich is thriving, which is
thriving.
Exactly, exactly.
So, then, with technology.
I think if we use technologynot to dilute our relationships
but to distill our relationshipsand those that matter, that can
(17:29):
be so effective.
And there's different purposesfor audiences in getting your
important podcast out, but thoseare deep, reciprocal
relationships.
And then sort of meaning making.
Really recent science,especially pioneered by Mary
Hallen in Mordino Yeung at theRocier School of Education at
USC back in California, is doingreally extraordinary work
(17:53):
looking at how young people makemeaning and how that impacts
their brain.
We have this default modenetwork in our brain that tends
to go towards when we're notusing.
It can go towards anxiety,ruminates, can go towards those
things from an evolutionaryperspective that we had to be
preoccupied with in earlier days.
(18:15):
And she has shown that whenyoung people intentionally
reflect on abstract beliefs andhow their implications for the
world like what should theyvalue, what should they do, what
should be their goals when theydo that and think about,
reflect on the implications morebroadly, that actually begins
(18:40):
to repurpose the default modenetwork and lay down sources of
room in their mind.
And why this is relational isthat we're finding that kids
don't necessarily do that ontheir own, but when they have a
caring adult who can comealongside them and say Catherine
, so you've started this podcastand what have you enjoyed most
(19:03):
about it?
Or what have you valued and howis that helpful for people
beyond you?
Speaker 1 (19:10):
So is it even just that act of asking questions and
giving someone the ability tojust ponder and think on a
practical relational standpoint?
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Yeah, these deeper questions that aren't yes, are
no answers, but they gotta thinkthrough.
And like what am I doing?
Why am I feeling the way I'mfeeling?
You could see that with youngpeople in the inner circle Now,
almost the default is no, yes, Idon't want to, but you have to
pull them to develop that depthof person.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
And what's so exciting is you can take a young
person if they might have grownup with a lot of adversity, not
necessarily have a lot ofattentive parenting or parents
that are working and stressed,to be able to come alongside
them and help them co-createthis sense of meaning and what
is in values, and help scaffoldthose into goals.
(20:00):
Mary Helen's work is showingover time that these kids are
doing better in school.
They are more purposeful,there's sense of confidence, but
it's extraordinary research.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
And so it doesn't necessarily have to come from a
parent figure, just someone tocome alongside them.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
Who's trustworthy respected, who has that sense of
connection with another.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Yeah, it seems that we get you know, I think you're
looking at our, the way we makesense of the world, like 10,000
years ago you, you had to be intune with your environment.
Oh, sure, not gonna surviveright now.
I think you can just chill likeI'm not gonna throw you right
now by.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Uber eats my meal.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
You know, like in a you know you be cold tonight, or
oh, here's a storm coming,where we really had to be in
tune with our environment.
Now we soon just Let that goand we have all this space
cognitively, to like, say,ruminate on whatever that heck
we want, and we don't seem tohave Filter or guidance.
Oh, what should I be doing withmy, my mind, now that they
(21:06):
don't have to worry about whereI'm gonna, where I'm gonna sleep
, as much as we used to?
Speaker 3 (21:10):
exactly.
So I would say like, from Umhistorical perspective, we are
really an interesting thresholdwhere we have not the luxury of
Thinking about other things,because if we don't become
purposeful, because we're notusing all that energy to survive
and figure out like I had towalk in the cold less night to
find food- Like I'm from LA.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
How do I do that there's snow on the ground?
Speaker 3 (21:33):
It's seven to my body , but ten here and everything's
close.
Where am I going?
We don't have to think likethat.
Right yeah, but the reality is,if we don't repurpose our
brains, if we don't find meaning, if we don't start to pursue
Purpose, we languish.
Yeah, that is not thriving andwe need to really repurpose our
(21:54):
brains.
We need to adapt our thinkingto not rely on being driven by
fear and anxiety, like ourbrains, kind of, were originally
created for.
Yeah we need to purpose them andhave them not driven by fear,
but motivated towards purposeand motivated by love and that
takes work?
Speaker 1 (22:10):
It is probably not.
Is that instinctual for us ashumans, or kind of
counterintuitive?
Speaker 3 (22:16):
I'd love to study that.
Sure, yeah, you know, I thinkwe are inherently and we're
gonna get into some Theologicalwaters of like we are wired for
goodness and but we also havethese propensities to be
projected Right and, and it'sreally important as our
environments change, as yourname and dad that we have to
(22:39):
Recognize how our psychologicalcapacities need to adapt to
those environments.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
It's a thing about the human brains that we can
reflect upon.
We have this ability to reflectupon what we're doing and to
recognize our evolutionarybiases.
You know, we think about likethe in-group, out-group bias was
.
It is like being distrustfulpeople you don't know could be
beneficial in a hunter-gatherersociety, but now we have the
ability to say, okay, well,that's maybe not helpful.
(23:05):
Now, not, maybe it's nothelpful.
So sure, yeah, but.
But, but we at least have theability to think about our
cognitive states.
Why do I have that?
Okay, I recognize that bias,now what am I gonna do about it?
Or, like you say, I recognizeokay, this is the way I'm
comfortable doing things.
But why is that?
(23:25):
What?
Was there something beyond that?
You know, and it does.
It takes cognitive work to dothat.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
Well in.
From an evolutionaryPsychological perspective, that
ability to reflect is one of thekey distinctions between us and
another species right and ourability to regulate Right, so we
can regulate our emotion.
You know, anger management,mindfulness, meditation, prayer
all help us calm down and Create, put us in a space where we're
(23:53):
calm enough to reflect and makethose connections with like, how
am I fitting with myenvironment?
How is my time spent withtechnology helping me thrive or
not?
But so that regulation and thatreflection is a really
essential to humans continuedpsychological adaption.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Well, and even continuing on that point, in
your book thriving with stoneage minds, you are combining,
you know, evolutionarypsychology with a biblical world
view.
How do you approach, then, thiscomplete picture of what it
means to be human?
Speaker 3 (24:28):
I am a firm believer and a creator of this universe
that is beyond my apprehension.
But but to that I feel like, asa human and one called to
continue or to contribute toGod's ongoing work in this world
, I I feel very called to drawon the tools and experiences
I've been given.
So, as a social scientist, as awannabe theologian, how do I
(24:52):
Best understand the enterpriseof being human?
And so, for me again, theologyoffers that talas, those ideas,
those ultimate calls on her life, a vision of a life that can
move us forward as humans, onein which we are called the
median Christ.
I'm very influenced by we're aslavul theology of the
(25:14):
flourishing of all creation.
He's at the Yale Center forfailure and and and so then, how
?
Then psychology helps meunderstand again how humans can
change or not to Participatemore fully in God's ongoing work
, and so that's where I reallylove having this descriptive
(25:36):
science that really helps usunderstand and transformation
and change, and and also these,you know, ultimate vision of
what life could and should be.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
yeah, we often talk about the limits of science, and
it sounds like there are limitsto psychology too and what it
explains about what it means tobe human.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Yeah, yeah, so if you're looking at, you know, at
the church, for example, or itas a Minister, like, what is it
that that you know, insightsfrom psychology that you've seen
that translate to help you?
Yeah, in terms of helpingpeople flourish, right,
wonderful, great.
Yeah, what houses help you onthe ground?
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Yeah, so very much.
I think this is personal, butlike, romans 12, 1 and 2 have
been one of the most compellingverses in my life of like Really
wanting to offer my life as aliving sacrifice.
You know it's holy and caseinto God.
And so, you know, I, as a youngperson, turned to the church to
know how?
(26:34):
How do I do that?
How do I more fully offer mylife?
How do I become More righteousin Christ?
How do I become more generative?
How do I be faithful to who?
Who can is as different fromwho you guys are, and so I don't
see the church answering thatquestion.
I I think in my own personalexperience, my youth group did
(26:54):
have a lot of Extraordinaryexperiences of service and
mission and leadership thatallowed me to discover some of
my gifts.
But I would love to see thechurch broadly take seriously
activating God's people andEnabling God's people to call
and to thrive, and I I honestlyunderstand Discipleship as an
(27:15):
invitation to thrive.
And I feel like often and I canspeak from more my experience
in the church, you know, it wasall about Jesus.
The symbol of Christianity isthe cross, not not an eye.
So everything you should doshould be about Jesus, not you.
Yeah, and, and I took that, butI buried a lot of me and I
think there became almost shameof like, oh, I shouldn't stay
(27:35):
out and so if I excelled and gotattention, I felt a lot
shouldn't have all right, yeah,yeah, yeah, a lot of attention
about that and and so my workwith the reciprocating self, and
I just loved doing this with mystudents.
As, like you know, god made useach unique.
We all have strengths and giftsspiritual gifts, however you
want to formulate that andthat's a really important part
(27:56):
of our purpose.
He's right, how do we cultivatethose and be a good Steward of
them?
But they're not for our ownends.
You know.
We do that with others and Forothers and for God's purposes,
yeah, and so I really try toencourage, you know, hope that
the church can find ways that wecan worship and exalt God and
Confess and participate insacraments but also have
(28:19):
experiences where people areactivated and their giftedness
is a firm too.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Yeah, yeah, it's as a Catholic that said something
that the church is sort of inthe 20th century, sort of focus
on this universal call forHoliness and the personal
vocation.
That is something that that weneed to draw out, that everybody
and every walk of life hasSomething that they need to do
to flourish that nobody else isgoing to do.
And once you recognize aboutnobody can replace me or Nobody
(28:47):
can replace Catherine.
No, we can replace Pam.
What you have to do, it givesMore.
There's no way to have a bettersense of purpose and meaning
because you're irreplaceable andwhat you're gonna do.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
I I keep thinking back to, so I'm named after st
Catherine of Sienna, oh, and herfamous quote is you know, be
who you are meant to be, and youwill set the world ablaze?
And I feel like that kind ofcaptures everything you're
talking about of You've definedout who is it that you, uniquely
, were designed to be living.
That thrive, and actually, isthat thriving?
Is that, holiness?
Speaker 3 (29:20):
I think that is when it's done with and for Right and
I believe within four is arather Jesuit phrase.
I have a, and that's the nameof the podcast that I recently
started.
But it is so often in the US,in the Western culture, when you
say St Catherine's beautifulquote, people often take a blaze
for myself in my own glory.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Right.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
And they forget or don't have the context to think
no, there's a greater glory forthis.
And when we pursue happiness,our own life satisfaction, that
only lasts so long.
It's a dead end straight reallyquickly.
But it is when we are doingthat with others and share
(30:02):
ourselves with others, and arethere psychological benefits to
that as well?
Oh, yes, because you need thatlove to really be and become
yourself.
So when you pursue your ownends, your own purpose, outside
of sharing it with others orcultivating it with others, you
won't be as effective becauseyou really need that love to
(30:23):
just unfold as who you are.
Otherwise you have aperformance attitude more than a
purpose.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Yeah, there seems to be a lot of psychology that
looks at.
The people are morepsychologically flourishing if
they recognize something beyondthemselves that they're drawn to
, and recognizing your selflimits and there's something
greater out there than youAbsolutely, and even secular
psychologists are looking at it.
I say there's a study buddy.
(30:50):
I went to UC Berkeley andthere's this eucalyptus trees
right outside.
I went about these people willstare at these eucalyptus trees,
he's huge.
And do that for 60 seconds andthey just have this sense of
connection with somethinggreater, and this wonder.
And that's only on a sort of asecular level.
(31:11):
You add the wonder of God andrealizing you're meant for him
and that you are have thatmeaning.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Called just something more.
Called just something more.
We all need that, and if wedon't have that, we don't lure
psychologically, spiritually,absolutely anyway, you've
already kind of mentioned somenames, but you really are
pioneering, fascinating work andI'm so grateful for that.
Is there someone who inspiresyou academically and someone who
(31:41):
inspires you from a faithperspective?
Speaker 3 (31:43):
Those are wow so many .
An interdisciplinary personwho's been on the planet 55
years, has had a lot ofinfluences.
It's interesting in thisconversation someone that
academically is coming to mindone of my beloved mentors, rich
Lerner, who's a developmentalscientist at Tufts University
(32:06):
and on the Pontifical Academy ofLife with the Vatican, has made
huge impressions on me and Richis brilliant.
But he has an incredible abilityto embrace development and the
human experience in all itscomplexity, and so often
(32:27):
scientists like to bereductionistic and get to what
are the mechanisms or theaspects that are causing change.
And Rich, really, he has thecapacity to consider an
individual's particularity andrecognize like we might all
thrive slightly differently.
He can take the complexity ofthe goodness of fit between an
individual and the many systemsin which their life is in.
(32:51):
And this is so important fordevelopmental science, because
we have abilities, we havedisabilities, we have genetic
predispositions, we havedifferent experiences of nurture
that cause those geneticpredispositions to be expressed
differently.
And how do we factor all ofthat in?
And Rich also has just suchrespect for transcendence, for
(33:16):
that which is beyond thematerial realm, and I've
appreciated his example that wedon't necessarily need to name
that's transcendence.
And now from someone with aChristian worldview like my own,
I will, I can name in my lifethat the experience of love and
grace in Christ enables me toknow God, the Father, through
(33:41):
the Spirit, in a profound way,that those beliefs, like just
reflecting on them, gives methat experience of awe, that the
emotion of awe and gratitudethat someone might have from
looking at a eucalyptus tree.
So, it has so much to do withthe meaning we ascribe those
situations and we do know from aresearch perspective, when
(34:02):
people apply more sacred will toexperience such transcendence,
it has more ordering power ontheir identity, on their life
narrative, on their motivationsand on their behaviors.
So sacred narratives are reallyimportant for people and that's
where, like in our world today,there's a lot of them, and I
(34:23):
really think we need tore-invite people into faith in a
way that activates them andgives them life, not dampens
them down, which I think hasbeen so many people's wrong
experience.
And that they experience thegoodness, the love, the
transcendence that really canenable people to become more
(34:47):
fully, just as we're starting toget towards the end here.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
if you could maybe just sum up what your
reflections on human purpose,are in terms of what?
Your life work has been, andhow somebody comes into you and
says, Pam, I'm struggling withmy faith.
One is my purpose?
Obviously everybody's unique,but how do you talk about that?
Speaker 3 (35:11):
Well, I think at a really practical level and I
could get into if the person isreally struggling with their
faith.
I may not give a biblicaltheological answer because
psychological I've talked aboutthose, but I think the science
of purpose.
One of my other greatinfluencers in my life is Bill
Damon, and it's hard to thinkabout rich without Bill.
And Bill Damon is at Stanfordand is the director of the
(35:36):
Center on Adolescence and hasabsolutely pioneered in the
psychology of purpose.
And Bill puts his stake in theground and says that purpose is
truly purpose when it's a noblepurpose, and so we can.
The research breaks down thatpurpose.
This concept of purpose iseffective when people consider
purpose as an enduring life goal.
(35:57):
So meaning is what's meaningful, but purpose is actionable.
So your life goal might be toenable people to know God more
fully through science I'mguessing, I don't know.
So you can do that in theclassroom and research and a
podcast.
So what is your enduring lifegoal?
Speaker 1 (36:14):
And then that goal has to be meaningful to yourself
, is it almost like your ownpersonal mission statement?
Speaker 3 (36:21):
and having that help.
Yes, and often my studentscoming.
They're in grad school so it'svoluntary, but their parents
might want them there, or a lotof our Pacific Rim.
We have a ton of Asian studentswho often come with a family
purpose and a lessdifferentiated individual
purpose and that can be powerful.
(36:41):
But just knowing, am I pursuingpurpose, my purpose that's
meaningful to me, or is it apurpose that someone else put on
you?
Put on you yeah familyexpectation, community
expectation, congregationalexpectation, approval.
So the actual goal needs to bemeaningful itself, but it needs
(37:03):
to contribute to the worldbeyond yourself.
And so, again, if it's justme-oriented purpose, that's not
a true purpose.
But when purpose is beyond theself, when it benefits others,
then you really reappsychological benefits.
And we find that when peoplepursue purpose in this way, they
actually end up connecting withmore like-minded people.
(37:24):
So, if we're talking about ayoung person, they find mentors
or peers that can support themin the journey or wrestle with
them in that journey.
They become more clear abouttheir priorities, which, in a
world when we have 500,000options, knowing your priorities
in values is essential.
So I think understandingpurpose in that way, is really
(37:49):
helpful.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
For someone who might be there listening to this,
asking okay, but how do I findmy purpose?
I don't even know where tostart there.
What do you want to say?
Speaker 3 (37:59):
This might be a surprising answer, but one of
the first ways people can dothis is to think about joy and
when they have in their life,experience the most profound joy
, like real joy, not just a buzzof happiness not just like that
was fantastic pizza, but likeno, it was great pizza, but it
was because I was with my kidsand my teenagers don't really
(38:23):
spend a lot of time with me, sothat was awesome.
So when we think about when weexperience joy, what we're doing
, the activities, the skillswe're using, that usually points
us to what we're passionateabout.
It also points us to the peoplethat we care most about.
So when you're thinking aboutpurpose, you want to identify
what are my strengths, mypassions, when do I feel most
(38:46):
alive and joyful and who are thepeople that I need in my life
that give me joy, and who arethe people that give me the most
joy to care for and serve?
And then, how does that alignwith how I'm trying to become
like Christ, like we don't wantto do this in an crazy way where
(39:06):
we're not experiencing balance,but when we're living out the
virtues that Christ modeled.
So, yeah, think about yourpassions think about people.
Think about those virtues andvalues that define your life.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
I'm thinking about it right now.
That's great.
I've heard that like people usethe term like blue flame almost
to be like.
It's like what you're hangingon like when do you feel the
most yourself?
And like alive, yes, and we'vegotten away from that.
Speaker 3 (39:35):
I don't know if you guys have this catechism, but
the first question is what isthe chief end of humankind?
And the response is to glorifyGod and enjoy God forever.
In the irony, the tomes writtenon sin in theological libraries
are massive and joy is verygood, so we need to re-create
(39:59):
joy.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
I love that.
I love that you know we're sograteful to have you on our
podcast.
You have your own podcast, asyou mentioned, with and for,
which is fascinating.
I've been able to listen to afew episodes already and you're
speaking with experts delvinginto psychological science but,
again, spiritual wisdom as well,as we've been doing here today.
Anything that you want to letour listeners and viewers know
(40:21):
about other projects that you'reworking on so they can connect
with you and see more of yourwork Absolutely, thank you so
much for asking me.
Speaker 3 (40:29):
Yeah, so new podcast three weeks out with and for and
we yeah.
So the conversations are reallydialogues between people who
really commit their lives tothriving, and when I say about
thriving, it's thriving for aflourishing world, not just my
own personal thriving.
So we have psychologicalperspectives,
neuro-psychological, sometheological.
(40:51):
We always have practices andthe hope is to really guide
people and offer practical stepsthat they can do daily to
pursue thriving.
That is not just spirituallyinformed or politically informed
, but that is actuallypsychological informed.
And to accompany that, onthethrowncenterorg we have a
(41:13):
host of resources, either audiopractices like guided
meditations.
We have like PDFs you candownload to remind you or to
journal a lot of reflections.
We, from the research from thelast two and a half decades,
have a lot of blogs and insightsto unpack, like what is purpose
, if you didn't quite catch that, or how do people make meaning,
(41:35):
or what is moral injury orattachment theory and what does
this have to do with daily life?
And lastly, I'll say recently Icreated a what I call a
spiritual health framework andthe reality is not all
spirituality is very healthy.
A lot of shaming, guilt drivenprobably, a lot of spirituality
(41:57):
in the Hitler movement, lots oftranscendence there, not good,
not to good ends.
So I have used not just my ownresearch but a lot of my work
and those of others to reallygraph out and identify six
facets of healthy spirituality,and if you want to hear more
about that, I'll recommendpeople to the website so we
don't have to get technical here.
(42:19):
But I hope that's reallyhelpful for leaders in
spiritually engaged contexts,whether it's a nonprofit or
clergy or like a school ministryor a hospital.
We have chaplains of likehelping people get in touch with
the vast psychologicalresources for resilience and for
(42:39):
throwing.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
Yeah, that's great Because, yeah, I think people
listen to this.
I want purpose, I want thriving, I want that.
How do I do that?
And because you said there's somany ways to go that in the
wrong way, that there areself-defeated.
So it's great to have all thoseresources.
Speaker 1 (42:55):
And it's great to have you here, Dr Pam King.
It's obvious you're living outyour mission and we're grateful
for that.
Speaker 3 (43:01):
Well, thank you.
It's really wonderful to bewith you, and for greater
purposes, so thank you so much Ithink I could have spoken to
Pam forever.
Speaker 1 (43:12):
It was just fascinating her research.
We've talked about how there'scommunity hardwired into our
brain, or need for community,and she seemed to really
underline that with her researchfrom psychologist perspective
as well.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
Yeah right, we're meant for community, meant for
others, and the interestingthing about how we really need
to have those deep relationshipswith four or five people and
then have meaningfulrelationships with the circles
on that.
But that's part and parcel,what allows us to be the person
we're meant to be.
Speaker 1 (43:42):
Right and again her research when it comes to what
it means to thrive, what itmeans to flourish.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
Yeah, it was interesting when she talked
about purpose.
Then there's this whole field,expanding field of the
psychology of purpose andmeaning.
And her point there was that thepurpose that you have has to go
beyond yourself, and this issomething that psychological
data seems to show.
My purpose is just to make alot of money.
It's not going to help meflourish.
Psychologically.
It's like my purpose has to befor others and to give my life
(44:11):
to others, which is it resonatesperfectly with what we are
supposed to be living in theChristian life.
So it's really interesting thesynergy between what the science
of purpose is, showing that weneed this transcendent,
something greater than ourselves, and that's exactly what we see
and what we've known throughour Christian faith for
millennia.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
Then we're the best version of ourselves to when
we're giving to others.
Yeah, so fascinating.
Grateful to have her on andthat she travels all the way
from California.
Okay, well, now I have somequestions for you, dan, as we
move into the office hoursegment of the show.
So there was a pretty strikingquote from Pope Francis.
In recent weeks he spoke outboldly against the practice of
(44:52):
surrogacy and surrogates.
He called the practicedeplorable, said it's a
commercialization of pregnancy.
He called it a global ban.
I think a lot of people werestruck by his choice of words
there, given its greatacceptance in our culture.
But I was curious on yourthoughts on that as a Catholic
biologist.
Speaker 2 (45:12):
Yeah, no, I think what he's giving us are a couple
things.
One, I think that surrogacy asa tendency to treat the woman's
body in a utilitarian fashion,that a woman's only useful as
she can provide the space for mybaby to grow, and so there's
sort of an economic issue thatgoes on in these poor, lower
(45:35):
class women, underclass womenare gonna be exploited.
So there's certainly that.
But there's also sort of thisrelationality that we've talked
about on the show today thatbegins in the womb right, and
that the placenta is arelational organ right.
It's a half of the baby andhalf of the mother and some of
the cells cross back and forthto that.
(45:57):
So that bond between mother andchild is beginning there in
utero and your sort of surrogacydisrupts that right in a sense.
So there's a certain thatrelational aspect of us is being
altered in a sense with that.
Speaker 1 (46:13):
There's ethical concerns, but again you're
speaking to biological concernsthat are there as well and to
that same point, speaking ofthat connection of the child and
mother in the womb and thenafterwards the connection with
mother and child.
There was a recent study whenit came to breastfeeding and
brain health.
Can you speak to those findings?
Speaker 2 (46:33):
Yeah, there was interesting studies showing what
they looked at was what'scalled the metabolome in the gut
.
So they looked at all of themetabolites in the gut of the
baby and they looked at thosethat were breastfeeding for six
months and those that weretaking formula and there's the
different metabolites in thereright.
So, for example, those thatbreastfeeding had higher amounts
(46:53):
of cholesterol, which is veryimportant for brain development
and brain health.
They saw a correlation betweenthe metabolites that were there,
the higher ones that were there, the breastfeeding and a
increased brain development atthe age of two.
So it's interesting.
Breast bulk is as a mammal.
In our biology it's produced,something that is very
(47:15):
beneficial.
There's a lot of research thatneeds to be done on this that
might be able to help, but it'snot surprising, giving that our
biology is set up forrelationality and for the
development of that brain, whichis the organ that really allows
us to have that relationality.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
I think that's totally the point of like not
making a judgment call onmothers and children, for
whatever reason you know can'tdo breastfeeding, but it speaks
to the biology and again, theimportance of that connection
between mother and child.
Speaker 2 (47:45):
Yeah, exactly how our biology seems to be designed to
get to a certain stage, acertain relationality.
Speaker 1 (47:50):
Yeah, well, fascinating conversation again
with Dr Pam King and with you,dan, as always, and I wanna
remind our viewers and listenersthat if you have a question
maybe you saw something that youwanna get Dan's take on, or
just a science question you'vebeen wondering you can submit
that question by emailing us atinfoatmodjustcentercom.
You can also leave us avoicemail at 949-257-2436.
(48:14):
Be sure to go tomodjustcentercom to see the
latest with what we're up tohere at Purposeful Lab and
subscribe on your favoritepodcast platform.
We'll see you next week.
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