July 19, 2023 • 29 mins
In this episode of Pursuing Uncomfortable, host Melissa sits down with special guest Selena Willows to discuss the important topic of infant and child swim safety. Selena introduces the concept of infant swim rescue and shares her concerns with this method, suggesting alternative solutions. As the founder of Swim to Me, a program that teaches parents how to teach their children how to swim and self-rescue, Selena is passionate about the importance of water safety education for children. She emphasizes the benefits of teaching children how to swim at an early age and shares valuable tips for parents looking to introduce their children to water. Additionally, Selena draws on her years of experience teaching high fear sports such as swimming and gymnastics to discuss the importance of introducing children to different physical sensations. Tune in to learn more about how you can keep your child safe around water, while also exposing them to unique experiences that will help them in the long run.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:24):
Selena Willows has 28 years ofexperience teaching water
safety.
She joins the podcast today totalk to parents about helping
their children overcome fear ofthe water, and how they can
teach their children to swim andstay safe in just 10 practices
of less than 10 minutes as earlyas two and a half years old.
(00:45):
Let's welcome Selena to thepodcast.
Melissa (00:52):
Selena, welcome to the Pursuing Uncomfortable Podcast.
It's so awesome to have you
Selena (00:57):
with us today.
Thank you.
I'm so glad to be here, Melissa.
Melissa (01:02):
So, where are you and how are
Selena (01:05):
you?
I, I am well, thank you.
I am currently in, uh, Canada'scapital in Ottawa.
Um, yeah.
Nice.
Is it hot up there?
Melissa (01:16):
It's the middle of July.
Well, it's not the middle ofJuly.
I was working on my calendarearlier.
It's late June is We'rerecording and we're an el hot
spell down
Selena (01:25):
here.
Yeah.
So it seems to come and do go.
We'll have a few hot days andthen it'll get chilly a little
bit for a few days.
Um, but it's, it's summer.
It's summer in Canada.
Yeah.
That's the way it's,
Melissa (01:37):
yeah, exactly.
Well, tell us a little bit aboutwhat you do because it's so
fascinating.
Selena (01:44):
Thanks.
Uh, so I help parents help theirchildren overcome fear of the
water and learn to swim.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's an essential skill.
I
Melissa (01:56):
know when my son was little, I wanted him to be able
to manage him himself in the
Selena (02:01):
water.
Yeah.
It's necessary.
It's a life-saving skill,really.
And I I, for us personally, inour home, it's non-negotiable.
Everybody must learn to swim.
Are
Melissa (02:12):
you all active in water sports?
Is this how this
Selena (02:15):
came about for you?
Um, so we are more or lessactive in water sports.
Yes.
Uh, this came about thoughbecause I have been teaching
swimming and high fair sportschildren in high fair sports
specifically for 28 years now.
And so high fear sports.
High fear sports, yes.
(02:36):
So swimming falls under thatcategory for a lot of children.
And, uh, I also used to coachcompetitive gymnastics.
Oh, so gymnastics is another onewhere, you know, if you slip off
the bar or off the beam, there'sa little bit of fear that comes
in.
And, uh, even trying new tricks,right, can be, can be a fearful,
uh, a fearful pro, pro processfor a child.
(02:58):
So, Yeah, so I've been workingin high fear sports for 28 years
now.
And when my little ones, cause Ihave two children of my own.
When my eldest was 18 months,he, uh, he had a water accident
and he developed a tremendousfear of water.
Uh, night terrors and all that.
(03:19):
Wouldn't go near.
Hair washing became a nightmare.
Um, he was traumatized.
Yeah.
And so I had to find a way toget him swimming because, Um,
well, because like I said, it'sin our home non-negotiable.
Uh, we do do a lot of campingand paddle boarding and boating
and fishing and stuff like that.
(03:39):
And so though the kids are notnecessarily in water sports all
the time, um, we do do a lot ofactivities around water and so
it was absolutely necessary.
So how did you help
Melissa (03:50):
your son overcome the traumatic experience
Selena (03:53):
he had?
Yeah, so it was a lot ofresearch at first, frankly, um,
because I knew what I knew fromteaching true what I call now
traditional lessons, right?
And those traditional lessonswith myself and with independent
instructors were not working formy son.
And so from there, I, I deepdove into fear in children, into
(04:18):
how to help children overcomefear in general.
Um, how these fears develop, howthey manifest in the body, all
of this.
So I did a, a really huge deepdive into the emotional side of
it.
Mm-hmm.
And then I did a bit of a deepdive into the physical side of
it.
And what I realized prettyquickly was that we teach
(04:41):
swimming in a very particularway compared to every other
sport out there.
I think we're doing it wrong.
I certainly think so now.
Eight years later.
Um, and you know, over 2000children taught, I now know that
we are teaching swimming wrongand so
Melissa (05:01):
well, now I'm really intrigued.
I really barely rememberswimming myself.
Uh, I have some memory of myson's swim lessons.
So what's the wrong way thatwe've all been doing?
Yeah,
Selena (05:15):
so I mean, I think that this is, you know, I say wrong
and that's a really heavystatement, right?
That's a very bold statement forme to make.
Um, but really truly what it is,is that if you can go back and
remember how your child learnedto walk, run, climb, ride a
bike, um, stand on a snowboard,whatever sport they do, and did.
Uh, there was very littleprescriptive movement involved,
(05:38):
right?
Yeah.
So for example, if you were toteach your child to walk well,
you would have to explain to thechild to lift their foot, hold
their balance on one side, shifttheir weight over, move their
foot forward, shift their weightback over, do it again.
Right?
And that's just why you, youcan't explain that to a child.
(05:59):
They won't understand, right.
But they learn.
Just by trying it, they see usdo it and then they wanna try
it.
Now with swimming, there is thatwhole factor of they're in the
water, right?
So there's a bit of dangerthere, so we have to kind of
modify.
But swimming has been taught inprescriptive movements for
almost a hundred years now.
So these, these programs weredeveloped in the thirties and a
(06:21):
lot, uh, a lot has maintainedand remained the same over the
years.
They've changed, you know, theorder of the colors and they
spread stuff out and whatever,but, The process by, with the
method methodology by whichthey're teaching is very
prescriptive movement.
So I equate this to teaching achild a dance choreography.
So if you get in the water andtry to do, say, breaststroke or
(06:42):
front crawl, you need toremember to kick, to move your
arms, to turn your head to theside to breathe.
Or if you're doing the count,right, the gliding, the pulling,
the kicking, the lifting, theall of it has to be remembered.
Until you have it in a sequencewhere you can just do it.
Mm-hmm.
But to get there, that's a lotfor a child to remember.
(07:05):
And so,
Melissa (07:06):
yeah.
Now that you say that,
Selena (07:07):
yeah, that's a lot.
Right?
What happens?
Well, of course children are notlearning to swim until they're
5, 6, 7 years old andindependently, right?
Cause they have all these piecesthat they have to put together.
Now you add that to the factthat a child doesn't have.
It's called proprioception,where their limbs are in space,
right?
Children don't have, uh,proprioception the way adults
(07:28):
do.
They don't really know whattheir limbs are doing a lot of
the time.
A
Melissa (07:32):
lot of the time, I would say my teenager is still,
well, I think he's willfullyunaware of what his limbs are
doing.
Willfully.
Blissfully, right?
Selena (07:45):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So if we can actually strip awaythe choreography, Then the child
can learn to swim the way thechild learned to ride a bike.
You didn't give explicitinstructions.
Hmm.
Press down on the pedal with Xamount of force and whatever.
No.
It's a feeling of learning toride a bike, learning to ride a
snowboard.
A skateboard, um, any of thosethings.
(08:08):
It's a feeling.
And so if we can sw, strip awaythe choreography of the swimming
and turn it into a feeling, kidslearn so
Melissa (08:17):
fast, so fast.
Yeah, that makes so much sense.
And you know, I've been rackingmy brain trying to remember my
first swim lesson, and I wasreally disappointed in that
first lesson because it was, allright, here's the water.
It's a little bit deeper thanyou are.
Uh, don't go wander, but rightnow I want you to only use your
(08:39):
arms, keep yourself afloat.
And we did that for a fewminutes, and then she said,
okay, now I want you to do thesame thing, but only use your
legs.
Okay.
And that was my first swimlesson.
I thought, well, what a ripoff,but I see that maybe that really
suited me well because I trustedthat my body would, would keep
(09:01):
me
Selena (09:01):
above the water, would know what to do.
Now, can I ask how old you werewhen you took that lesson?
I'm guessing
Melissa (09:09):
probably seven or
Selena (09:12):
so.
Yeah.
So the other part is that wetend to, in traditional lessons,
try to teach children to swimwith their head up.
Mm-hmm.
Lot of children don't wanna puttheir face in and so we try to
teach them to swim with theirhead up and outta the water.
Unfortunately, this position isnot available to children.
(09:33):
It's just not, they don't havethe upper back musculature to
keep their head up and to keepin this horizontal swim
position.
So as soon as they lift theirhead, their bum goes down.
Yeah.
And then they become vertical.
And this is actually called thedrowning position.
It's actually called, we don'twant.
Yeah.
Cause
Melissa (09:51):
you have less.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Of course.
Right up and down you're gonnasink like
Selena (09:56):
a torpedo.
Exactly.
So when children try to swimwith their head up, they can't
get very far or for very long orvery fast.
Because their body is, aretilted right at this angle.
And so they're pressing againstthe water to try to move, which
doesn't work very well.
Right.
Have you ever tried to jog inthe water?
Doesn't work very well.
Right.
So and then they're paddling,paddling, paddling to try and
(10:18):
keep their head up out of thewater so they can get air and
they're exhausting themselvesand they're actually putting
themselves in more danger thanif they were to just put their
face in.
Yeah, I see that now.
Yeah.
So there's a whole layer to thisthough.
So savor with your face in thewater for a couple of reasons.
Um, the first is that they canactually move, so they can
(10:40):
actually get to where they'regoing, to, where the safety
point is, where the air isavailable to them consistently
by holding onto the side orreaching the stairs or whatever.
But the other problem is that asmammals, we have this amazing
kind of ability, all these, allthese processes in our body,
right?
And so one of these processes iscalled the D of reflex.
And the dive reflex allows us,or tells our brain and tells our
(11:03):
body not to take a breath.
Okay, so
Melissa (11:07):
real quick, you're saying Dai, d i v e?
Selena (11:10):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
The dive reflex that all mammalshave this, and what it is, is
that when water hits theselittle tiny nerves in our
nostrils, the dive reflex isactivated and our body knows we
are underwater.
We are not to breathe Now.
Just like any other complexsystem, it can be overridden,
right?
This is how we end up at a placewhere possibly we're drowning.
(11:33):
However, it's also how freedivers stand our water for so
long and can hold their breathfor so long, because as soon as
the dive reflex is activated,not only do we know not to
breathe, but oxygen is divertedto essential organs only, and so
we can actually maintain abreath for a very, very, very
long time underwater.
When a child swims with theirhead up like this and the water
(11:54):
is lapping up and down and upand down, and they're breathing
through their mouth, dive reflexis not activated.
And so a lot of times childrenwill end up inhaling water.
Oh, and this is where they endup on the side coughing,
coughing, coughing.
No, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'mfine.
And then they go back in playand they do it over and over and
over again.
And this is where we end up withfolks.
Melissa (12:14):
You know, I had, uh, some friends of friends.
Who, uh, lived in Hawaii, theyhad a, a baby and they just kind
of threw the baby in the water.
There was a little more to itthan that.
Yeah.
And they were present with it,but the baby just knew what to
do.
Devon (12:29):
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She's an amazing mom and anamazing podcast host, isn't she?
She's also amazing at helpingpeople to understand and manage
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So please check out Light Lifeand love ministries.com and her
(12:51):
YouTube channel.
Blue Weeks are in the shownotes.
Selena (12:56):
Yes.
Yeah.
So that's actually called InfantSwim Rescue.
And it is, uh, it's amethodology for infants.
It, um, it's a survival kind ofswim, uh, swim course.
Now, the thing with.
The thing with that is thatasking a child to float on their
back is extremely onerous.
It's
Melissa (13:17):
really hard to get a child to swim, to, to float
Selena (13:19):
on their back and to just relax in the water, right?
Mm-hmm.
Um, we're asking children tosubmit to the water when they
have no capability in it.
Now, ISR has done at very, very,very young ages, and, um,
they're, uh, it can take 40 to50 lessons.
To get a child to actually dothis mechanism.
(13:42):
And what I've seen in mypractice is that if very young
children don't practice, oftenthey lose it.
Mm-hmm.
The younger the child is, themore often you need to practice.
My opinion on the whole thing,um, is kind of two things.
One is that there's no abilityto communicate with the child as
to what is happening to them.
(14:03):
And so there have been cases inwhich this causes trauma for a
child.
And very real problems later on,uh, in the water for the child.
But the other part of it too isthat a child should not be
submitting to the water ifthey're not capable in the
water.
We're giving them a false senseof security.
And if they can't walk anyway,then why do they need to know to
(14:23):
swim?
Okay.
And to
Melissa (14:25):
clarify, this is for floating on your back in the
water, not for swimming.
Selena (14:30):
Right, so they'll roll over.
It's a survival mechanism,right?
So they teach them to roll overonto their back if they ever
fall in, but why is the sixmonth old falling in the water?
Right?
That's my opinion.
That's my opinion.
And there are ISR instructorsall over the place that will
absolutely disagree with me, andthat's fine.
Everybody's entitled to theiropinion, but as far as I'm
concerned, until a child is ableto walk to the pool, open the
(14:52):
gate, whatever, there's notnecessarily a need for this.
And it doesn't stick.
So no backstroke.
Melissa (15:02):
Pardon?
Selena (15:03):
So no backstroke yet?
No.
Right.
They're not gonna be doing thatyet anyway.
Right.
So, yeah.
Yeah.
So ISR is very impressive.
Very, very impressive.
Um, and I think that, you know,there are absolutely
circumstances where it hasdefinitely saved lives.
Absolutely.
(15:24):
I just don't know that thefinancial implication, the time
implication, uh, and the rest ofit when you have a child who is
not mobile anyway, isnecessarily worth it.
And I think it depends where youlive too, right?
Sure, absolutely.
In Canada, we don't have ISRinstructors.
They're few and far betweenbecause our winters are so long
(15:44):
that no child is gonna rememberanyway from one season to the
back.
Whereas states like Florida, youknow, Hawaii, stuff like that,
where the water is there all thetime and people are swimming all
the time.
Mm-hmm.
I can see how it would bepossibly worthwhile, you know,
in a different, in a differentsetting.
Sure.
Yeah.
So what is your mission?
Melissa (16:04):
Oh,
Selena (16:05):
my mission.
So my mission is to changedrowning rates.
I want those statistics tochange, and I think it's
possible.
I think that.
We've been stuck in these samenumbers, roughly, right?
I mean, we report every year onthese, these numbers of, of, you
know, numbers of children whohave fallen in the water and
that the, that one to four agegroup is, is at most risk of
(16:30):
drowning.
That's where we see the mostproblems.
Um, I would actually say thatit's more two to five, but the
way statistics are broken down,we don't have those numbers,
right?
It's one to four is the numberswe get.
Um, but I would like to see thatnumber change.
And, and my mission is to getthe information into parent
towns because parents are thefirst line of defense against
this.
(16:50):
They're the ones that are thereall the time.
You know, we don't havelifeguards sitting in our
backyard pool.
We don't have lifeguards.
When we go to barbecues, wedon't, you know, we don't hire
our lifeguard when we're havinga family swim.
And, uh, parents are the oneswho are there, and if they have
the right information and theright, uh, knowledge, know-how
and confidence in theirabilities, then and.
(17:12):
Then we can potentially, youknow, eradicate this problem
completely as possible.
Yeah, yeah.
And I have
Melissa (17:22):
some adult friends who said that they just refuse to
teach their children how to swimbecause they don't want them in
the water.
They just don't wanna take achance.
And then I also have adultfriends that say, I cannot go
boating.
I cannot do these things becauseI never learned how to swim and
I wish I would have.
So, I mean, I get parents haveto do what their gut tells them
(17:46):
is the best Yeah.
In raising their child.
Absolutely.
You should always listen to yourgut Yes.
In those things.
But how would you, uh, speak toan adult who's never been taught
how to swim?
How would you start to
Selena (18:00):
teach them?
Yeah.
So, you know, I, I taught adultsfor a long time.
Um, It's not my area ofexpertise.
I'm gonna be honest.
Adults come with a lot morebaggage than I have patience for
a lot of the time, to be honest.
You know, if I'm being a hundredpercent, um, with you.
That being said, it's a mentalgame more than it is a physical
(18:21):
game.
And understanding that is goingto get you a long way because
it's not just about can I float,can I move in the water?
It's can I stay calm becausethere's breath involved.
Yes.
And so if you can't stay calm inthe water, there's no service to
you learning to swim,
Melissa (18:41):
right?
Because it won't make adifference
Selena (18:43):
anyway.
Not gonna make a difference.
What we see is that people who,um, children who don't learn to
swim early, uh, in life.
So when I say early in life, Iam typically talking before, uh,
their developmental milestonearound age five or six.
Okay?
And there's a developmentalmilestone that happens in
children's brains around five orsix.
And people who do not learn howto swim before that
(19:05):
developmental milestone who are,uh, afraid of the water or have
anxiety around the water worry,that kind of thing, that, uh,
that fear, worry, anxietybecomes more ingrained during
that developmental milestone.
And then what we see is thateven learning to swim later on,
if they haven't dealt with thefeelings about it, the emotion
behind it, um, it can be muchharder to overcome later on in
(19:28):
life.
And these people end up.
Some very competent in thewater, but because those
feelings are still a little bitthere because they stuck, right.
Um, they can, they can panicmore easily.
And as bipeds, we are not verygood at getting ourselves over
the water once we panicked,
Melissa (19:47):
like Yeah, yeah.
The enemy of just about anythingwhen it comes to survival,
right?
Selena (19:54):
Yeah.
And in the water, our bodydoesn't even do anything useful
in the water when we're, whenwe're packaging.
Melissa (19:59):
You know, we're in that down position.
We're probably making ourselvesstraight up and down and
flailing
Selena (20:04):
about, and yeah, we're bobbing up and down.
It looks like we're climbing aladder, you know?
And, and it's, uh, and we're notable to, to see or perceive help
coming our way.
Mm-hmm.
And so, um, yeah, we're, we'renot very good at getting
ourselves out of it.
Um, unfortunately, I do
Melissa (20:25):
have a question about gymnastics, if you're willing to
Sure.
Foray in that.
Uh, when I was a kid, I wasterrified of doing a handstand.
I never had an accident.
I never fell, I never had anykind of trauma that would
explain it.
But even still to this day, youknow, I did car wheels and all
(20:46):
that.
Uh, Yeah, I tried a cartwheelnot too long ago after not doing
one for years, and I do notrecommend that.
But plus I was terrified ofdoing
Selena (20:57):
handstands.
Yeah.
So for some people it's the ideaof falling over the other way.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
If you don't have, if you're notup against a wall, um, for some,
and this is a really interestingthing, is for some, if you were
not put upside down as a child,And that's a feeling that your
body may just not want.
(21:19):
Um, we saw years and years.
I, I coached gymnastics foryears and years and years.
And what we often saw were, uh,children who weren't able to do
somersaults, that kind of thing,uh, when speaking with their
parents, never was this childupside down.
Not ever.
Right.
And I actually encourageparents, um, to hold their kids
(21:39):
upside down.
Yeah.
All of'em upside down.
It's fun for them and it givesthem a sense of, you know, all
the ways in which we can be inthis world like a little bit
more and, and what it feels liketo be upside down.
Because if we don't have thatfeeling, a lot of people have
never been upside down and neverwill.
Interesting.
(22:00):
Yeah.
I'm a
Melissa (22:01):
swing set and I hung by my feet all the time Okay.
On this.
And I had older brothers.
I was held by my ankles.
Yeah, that's just always beeninteresting to me.
Yeah, it, yeah.
But what other high fear sportsdo you have experience in?
Selena (22:19):
So those are the two main ones.
Um, I actually, in my, in myswimming, um, career, in my, in
my coaching career, I actuallyworked with the Canadian
military for some time and wedid cold water survival
training.
And so a lot of the, um, Not alot.
Sometimes we would have someone,an adult who would come in for
cold water survival training whocouldn't swim.
(22:41):
And so then it's a whole otherlayer, right, that we have to
put on top of that.
And, um, you know, children andadults are different in their
fear and the way it manifestsand the way they communicate it
and the way that they overcomeit.
Um, so it's always beeninteresting me to me to see, you
know, how, how the children doversus how the adults do.
(23:02):
And, uh, Yeah, that cold watersurvival was an interesting
decade of my life coaching Thatbet.
Melissa (23:08):
Yeah, I bet.
I had a little bit of that.
I was in the National Guard for10 years and on basic army basic
training, he did an afternoon ofthat.
So it wasn't any, anythingreally focused or intense, just
a general exposure to it.
But, uh, I remember the firstquestion was, who has never
(23:28):
learned how to swim?
And they were taken off andtrained differently.
Selena (23:32):
Yes.
They are definitely needing inneed of, of different training.
Um, and then, and then into the,the cold water.
Yeah.
Yeah.
This course was, um, so when Igot there, they actually didn't
have a curriculum at all.
They just did testing.
They did cold water testing.
Um, and so I came in and I builta curriculum and then I
(23:52):
administered it for 10 years.
And we had, uh, it was severalweeks of, of training.
So they'd come in once or twicea week for an hour for training.
And then at the end of it, wehad our,
Melissa (24:04):
our test day.
Yeah.
Interesting.
So, to parents that have youngchildren, or considering having
children soon, what advice wouldyou like them to have?
What do you want them to know ofthem?
Selena (24:18):
Hold your children upside down.
Yeah.
Um, so don't be afraid of, ofputting water in your child's
face.
That's a big one, right?
Your child can't learn how tohold their breath and how to
manage all of that.
Um, if they haven't experiencedit.
And you know, when you considerthat our children are in water
(24:39):
for nine months before they comeout, it's a perfect time right
from the start, right from thestart in bath time, wearing a
face cloth over their face, or,you know, when you're rinsing
hair or dump a cup of water and,and, you know, make sure some
goes over the face.
And then once you feelcomfortable, Get them
underwater, get them submerged.
And I can even give you a littletwo second if you're okay with
(25:01):
it.
A little how to do, okay.
So any child under the age of 12months, but even more than that,
I've seen this up to 24 months.
Even in children, when you blowin their face a strong sharp
blow.
So, uh, they actually shut downthe airway.
(25:21):
Beautiful thing.
So they'll shut down the airwayand you're gonna see it.
They'll go, Like that.
I have no idea what that justlooked like.
That's gonna be interesting towatch over first
Melissa (25:28):
picture.
Um,
Selena (25:30):
great.
So all we do is say 1, 2, 3, go.
And so you'll notice that I'msqueezing.
So this gives the child atactile, uh, cue.
I'm saying it.
So I'm giving a verbal cue andthen when I say Go now with a
young child, you're gonna blowput them under and back up and
(25:51):
that's it.
And once you get up, you.
And take a breath in.
Now.
The reason we want them tomimic.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I love it.
Yeah, love it.
I
Melissa (26:04):
did notice on your website you have, uh, a
downloadable guide, the UltimateSwim Guide for Parents, five
Things to Know For Success.
Yeah, I'm sure that's a greatresource that people should
download it.
And don't worry, folks, thelinks are in the show notes to
the website.
And that'll pop up there on thewebsite.
(26:25):
So you can get ahold of that.
Yes.
And yeah, this has really beeninteresting.
I've learned a lot today.
Selena, thank you for joiningus.
Thank you so much for having me.
Thanks so much for having me.
Any last thoughts you'd like toleave with
Selena (26:41):
us today?
Sure, absolutely.
I'd love to talk about, uh, theprogram that I have.
Yeah, that enable equals parentsto teach their own children to
swim.
You know, we talked about howgetting this information to the
parents' hands is of the utmostimportance.
And, you know, I have this, thisincredible program that, like I
said, we've been doing it foreight years now and, um, we have
(27:01):
a hundred percent success ratein children, two and a half an
up.
So in just 10 lessons, 10practices of under 10 minutes,
your two and a half year old isguaranteed to be swimming in
this program.
Wow.
Yes.
Right, because we've strippedaway the choreography and we've
added in all the emotionalsupport, both for the parents
and for the children.
(27:22):
And, um, so basically the co theprogram is called Swim to Me,
and in it I teach the parentshow to teach their child to swim
and self rescue.
We give you all the water safetystuff and we give you all the
communication stuff, right?
For the children who are, forthe parents who are thinking, my
child's not gonna listen to me.
(27:42):
I give you all of that, it's allin there.
Um, and we support you.
It's fully supported.
So you'll have access to methroughout the program and what
I'm doing because I really,really, really feel like this is
really important for allfamilies, is twofold.
So one is Melissa, I'm gonnaleave you with a coupon code.
So that, uh, listeners can get15% off the program.
(28:03):
Awesome.
And the other thing is I wanteverybody to know this is a
lifetime access program.
So if you have more than onechild and one of them is of age,
now you can hop in now and it'sno extra cost down the line.
You still have the support, youhave everything through all of
the children you need to teach.
So we've packaged it this waybecause I truly believe that it
is of the absolute importancethat all children learn to swim
(28:26):
and.
Children are expensive as it is,and more to the family, it gets
more and more expensive.
And so I wanted to make surethat there was something for
families who had, um, multiplechildren and, and could jump
into a program that, um, willallow them to teach all their
children at one price.
Selena, that's amazing.
Melissa (28:46):
And thank you for that coupon code.
You're very welcome.
All right.
It's been a pleasure.
It's been enlightening and it'sbeen fun.
So thank you so much and I lookforward to diving deeply.
See what I did there and so whatyou have to offer.
Thank you so
Selena (29:05):
much, Melissa.
It was great chatting with you.
Selena Willows has 28 years ofexperience teaching water
safety.
She joins the podcast today totalk to parents about helping
their children overcome fear ofthe water, and how they can
teach their children to swim andstay safe in just 10 practices
of less than 10 minutes as earlyas two and a half years old.
(00:45):
Let's welcome Selena to thepodcast.
Melissa (00:52):
Selena, welcome to the Pursuing Uncomfortable Podcast.
It's so awesome to have you
Selena (00:57):
with us today.
Thank you.
I'm so glad to be here, Melissa.
Melissa (01:02):
So, where are you and how are
Selena (01:05):
you?
I, I am well, thank you.
I am currently in, uh, Canada'scapital in Ottawa.
Um, yeah.
Nice.
Is it hot up there?
Melissa (01:16):
It's the middle of July.
Well, it's not the middle ofJuly.
I was working on my calendarearlier.
It's late June is We'rerecording and we're an el hot
spell down
Selena (01:25):
here.
Yeah.
So it seems to come and do go.
We'll have a few hot days andthen it'll get chilly a little
bit for a few days.
Um, but it's, it's summer.
It's summer in Canada.
Yeah.
That's the way it's,
Melissa (01:37):
yeah, exactly.
Well, tell us a little bit aboutwhat you do because it's so
fascinating.
Selena (01:44):
Thanks.
Uh, so I help parents help theirchildren overcome fear of the
water and learn to swim.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's an essential skill.
I
Melissa (01:56):
know when my son was little, I wanted him to be able
to manage him himself in the
Selena (02:01):
water.
Yeah.
It's necessary.
It's a life-saving skill,really.
And I I, for us personally, inour home, it's non-negotiable.
Everybody must learn to swim.
Are
Melissa (02:12):
you all active in water sports?
Is this how this
Selena (02:15):
came about for you?
Um, so we are more or lessactive in water sports.
Yes.
Uh, this came about thoughbecause I have been teaching
swimming and high fair sportschildren in high fair sports
specifically for 28 years now.
And so high fear sports.
High fear sports, yes.
(02:36):
So swimming falls under thatcategory for a lot of children.
And, uh, I also used to coachcompetitive gymnastics.
Oh, so gymnastics is another onewhere, you know, if you slip off
the bar or off the beam, there'sa little bit of fear that comes
in.
And, uh, even trying new tricks,right, can be, can be a fearful,
uh, a fearful pro, pro processfor a child.
(02:58):
So, Yeah, so I've been workingin high fear sports for 28 years
now.
And when my little ones, cause Ihave two children of my own.
When my eldest was 18 months,he, uh, he had a water accident
and he developed a tremendousfear of water.
Uh, night terrors and all that.
(03:19):
Wouldn't go near.
Hair washing became a nightmare.
Um, he was traumatized.
Yeah.
And so I had to find a way toget him swimming because, Um,
well, because like I said, it'sin our home non-negotiable.
Uh, we do do a lot of campingand paddle boarding and boating
and fishing and stuff like that.
(03:39):
And so though the kids are notnecessarily in water sports all
the time, um, we do do a lot ofactivities around water and so
it was absolutely necessary.
So how did you help
Melissa (03:50):
your son overcome the traumatic experience
Selena (03:53):
he had?
Yeah, so it was a lot ofresearch at first, frankly, um,
because I knew what I knew fromteaching true what I call now
traditional lessons, right?
And those traditional lessonswith myself and with independent
instructors were not working formy son.
And so from there, I, I deepdove into fear in children, into
(04:18):
how to help children overcomefear in general.
Um, how these fears develop, howthey manifest in the body, all
of this.
So I did a, a really huge deepdive into the emotional side of
it.
Mm-hmm.
And then I did a bit of a deepdive into the physical side of
it.
And what I realized prettyquickly was that we teach
(04:41):
swimming in a very particularway compared to every other
sport out there.
I think we're doing it wrong.
I certainly think so now.
Eight years later.
Um, and you know, over 2000children taught, I now know that
we are teaching swimming wrongand so
Melissa (05:01):
well, now I'm really intrigued.
I really barely rememberswimming myself.
Uh, I have some memory of myson's swim lessons.
So what's the wrong way thatwe've all been doing?
Yeah,
Selena (05:15):
so I mean, I think that this is, you know, I say wrong
and that's a really heavystatement, right?
That's a very bold statement forme to make.
Um, but really truly what it is,is that if you can go back and
remember how your child learnedto walk, run, climb, ride a
bike, um, stand on a snowboard,whatever sport they do, and did.
Uh, there was very littleprescriptive movement involved,
(05:38):
right?
Yeah.
So for example, if you were toteach your child to walk well,
you would have to explain to thechild to lift their foot, hold
their balance on one side, shifttheir weight over, move their
foot forward, shift their weightback over, do it again.
Right?
And that's just why you, youcan't explain that to a child.
(05:59):
They won't understand, right.
But they learn.
Just by trying it, they see usdo it and then they wanna try
it.
Now with swimming, there is thatwhole factor of they're in the
water, right?
So there's a bit of dangerthere, so we have to kind of
modify.
But swimming has been taught inprescriptive movements for
almost a hundred years now.
So these, these programs weredeveloped in the thirties and a
(06:21):
lot, uh, a lot has maintainedand remained the same over the
years.
They've changed, you know, theorder of the colors and they
spread stuff out and whatever,but, The process by, with the
method methodology by whichthey're teaching is very
prescriptive movement.
So I equate this to teaching achild a dance choreography.
So if you get in the water andtry to do, say, breaststroke or
(06:42):
front crawl, you need toremember to kick, to move your
arms, to turn your head to theside to breathe.
Or if you're doing the count,right, the gliding, the pulling,
the kicking, the lifting, theall of it has to be remembered.
Until you have it in a sequencewhere you can just do it.
Mm-hmm.
But to get there, that's a lotfor a child to remember.
(07:05):
And so,
Melissa (07:06):
yeah.
Now that you say that,
Selena (07:07):
yeah, that's a lot.
Right?
What happens?
Well, of course children are notlearning to swim until they're
5, 6, 7 years old andindependently, right?
Cause they have all these piecesthat they have to put together.
Now you add that to the factthat a child doesn't have.
It's called proprioception,where their limbs are in space,
right?
Children don't have, uh,proprioception the way adults
(07:28):
do.
They don't really know whattheir limbs are doing a lot of
the time.
A
Melissa (07:32):
lot of the time, I would say my teenager is still,
well, I think he's willfullyunaware of what his limbs are
doing.
Willfully.
Blissfully, right?
Selena (07:45):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So if we can actually strip awaythe choreography, Then the child
can learn to swim the way thechild learned to ride a bike.
You didn't give explicitinstructions.
Hmm.
Press down on the pedal with Xamount of force and whatever.
No.
It's a feeling of learning toride a bike, learning to ride a
snowboard.
A skateboard, um, any of thosethings.
(08:08):
It's a feeling.
And so if we can sw, strip awaythe choreography of the swimming
and turn it into a feeling, kidslearn so
Melissa (08:17):
fast, so fast.
Yeah, that makes so much sense.
And you know, I've been rackingmy brain trying to remember my
first swim lesson, and I wasreally disappointed in that
first lesson because it was, allright, here's the water.
It's a little bit deeper thanyou are.
Uh, don't go wander, but rightnow I want you to only use your
(08:39):
arms, keep yourself afloat.
And we did that for a fewminutes, and then she said,
okay, now I want you to do thesame thing, but only use your
legs.
Okay.
And that was my first swimlesson.
I thought, well, what a ripoff,but I see that maybe that really
suited me well because I trustedthat my body would, would keep
(09:01):
me
Selena (09:01):
above the water, would know what to do.
Now, can I ask how old you werewhen you took that lesson?
I'm guessing
Melissa (09:09):
probably seven or
Selena (09:12):
so.
Yeah.
So the other part is that wetend to, in traditional lessons,
try to teach children to swimwith their head up.
Mm-hmm.
Lot of children don't wanna puttheir face in and so we try to
teach them to swim with theirhead up and outta the water.
Unfortunately, this position isnot available to children.
(09:33):
It's just not, they don't havethe upper back musculature to
keep their head up and to keepin this horizontal swim
position.
So as soon as they lift theirhead, their bum goes down.
Yeah.
And then they become vertical.
And this is actually called thedrowning position.
It's actually called, we don'twant.
Yeah.
Cause
Melissa (09:51):
you have less.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Of course.
Right up and down you're gonnasink like
Selena (09:56):
a torpedo.
Exactly.
So when children try to swimwith their head up, they can't
get very far or for very long orvery fast.
Because their body is, aretilted right at this angle.
And so they're pressing againstthe water to try to move, which
doesn't work very well.
Right.
Have you ever tried to jog inthe water?
Doesn't work very well.
Right.
So and then they're paddling,paddling, paddling to try and
(10:18):
keep their head up out of thewater so they can get air and
they're exhausting themselvesand they're actually putting
themselves in more danger thanif they were to just put their
face in.
Yeah, I see that now.
Yeah.
So there's a whole layer to thisthough.
So savor with your face in thewater for a couple of reasons.
Um, the first is that they canactually move, so they can
(10:40):
actually get to where they'regoing, to, where the safety
point is, where the air isavailable to them consistently
by holding onto the side orreaching the stairs or whatever.
But the other problem is that asmammals, we have this amazing
kind of ability, all these, allthese processes in our body,
right?
And so one of these processes iscalled the D of reflex.
And the dive reflex allows us,or tells our brain and tells our
(11:03):
body not to take a breath.
Okay, so
Melissa (11:07):
real quick, you're saying Dai, d i v e?
Selena (11:10):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
The dive reflex that all mammalshave this, and what it is, is
that when water hits theselittle tiny nerves in our
nostrils, the dive reflex isactivated and our body knows we
are underwater.
We are not to breathe Now.
Just like any other complexsystem, it can be overridden,
right?
This is how we end up at a placewhere possibly we're drowning.
(11:33):
However, it's also how freedivers stand our water for so
long and can hold their breathfor so long, because as soon as
the dive reflex is activated,not only do we know not to
breathe, but oxygen is divertedto essential organs only, and so
we can actually maintain abreath for a very, very, very
long time underwater.
When a child swims with theirhead up like this and the water
(11:54):
is lapping up and down and upand down, and they're breathing
through their mouth, dive reflexis not activated.
And so a lot of times childrenwill end up inhaling water.
Oh, and this is where they endup on the side coughing,
coughing, coughing.
No, I'm fine, I'm fine, I'mfine.
And then they go back in playand they do it over and over and
over again.
And this is where we end up withfolks.
Melissa (12:14):
You know, I had, uh, some friends of friends.
Who, uh, lived in Hawaii, theyhad a, a baby and they just kind
of threw the baby in the water.
There was a little more to itthan that.
Yeah.
And they were present with it,but the baby just knew what to
do.
Devon (12:29):
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(12:51):
YouTube channel.
Blue Weeks are in the shownotes.
Selena (12:56):
Yes.
Yeah.
So that's actually called InfantSwim Rescue.
And it is, uh, it's amethodology for infants.
It, um, it's a survival kind ofswim, uh, swim course.
Now, the thing with.
The thing with that is thatasking a child to float on their
back is extremely onerous.
It's
Melissa (13:17):
really hard to get a child to swim, to, to float
Selena (13:19):
on their back and to just relax in the water, right?
Mm-hmm.
Um, we're asking children tosubmit to the water when they
have no capability in it.
Now, ISR has done at very, very,very young ages, and, um,
they're, uh, it can take 40 to50 lessons.
To get a child to actually dothis mechanism.
(13:42):
And what I've seen in mypractice is that if very young
children don't practice, oftenthey lose it.
Mm-hmm.
The younger the child is, themore often you need to practice.
My opinion on the whole thing,um, is kind of two things.
One is that there's no abilityto communicate with the child as
to what is happening to them.
(14:03):
And so there have been cases inwhich this causes trauma for a
child.
And very real problems later on,uh, in the water for the child.
But the other part of it too isthat a child should not be
submitting to the water ifthey're not capable in the
water.
We're giving them a false senseof security.
And if they can't walk anyway,then why do they need to know to
(14:23):
swim?
Okay.
And to
Melissa (14:25):
clarify, this is for floating on your back in the
water, not for swimming.
Selena (14:30):
Right, so they'll roll over.
It's a survival mechanism,right?
So they teach them to roll overonto their back if they ever
fall in, but why is the sixmonth old falling in the water?
Right?
That's my opinion.
That's my opinion.
And there are ISR instructorsall over the place that will
absolutely disagree with me, andthat's fine.
Everybody's entitled to theiropinion, but as far as I'm
concerned, until a child is ableto walk to the pool, open the
(14:52):
gate, whatever, there's notnecessarily a need for this.
And it doesn't stick.
So no backstroke.
Melissa (15:02):
Pardon?
Selena (15:03):
So no backstroke yet?
No.
Right.
They're not gonna be doing thatyet anyway.
Right.
So, yeah.
Yeah.
So ISR is very impressive.
Very, very impressive.
Um, and I think that, you know,there are absolutely
circumstances where it hasdefinitely saved lives.
Absolutely.
(15:24):
I just don't know that thefinancial implication, the time
implication, uh, and the rest ofit when you have a child who is
not mobile anyway, isnecessarily worth it.
And I think it depends where youlive too, right?
Sure, absolutely.
In Canada, we don't have ISRinstructors.
They're few and far betweenbecause our winters are so long
(15:44):
that no child is gonna rememberanyway from one season to the
back.
Whereas states like Florida, youknow, Hawaii, stuff like that,
where the water is there all thetime and people are swimming all
the time.
Mm-hmm.
I can see how it would bepossibly worthwhile, you know,
in a different, in a differentsetting.
Sure.
Yeah.
So what is your mission?
Melissa (16:04):
Oh,
Selena (16:05):
my mission.
So my mission is to changedrowning rates.
I want those statistics tochange, and I think it's
possible.
I think that.
We've been stuck in these samenumbers, roughly, right?
I mean, we report every year onthese, these numbers of, of, you
know, numbers of children whohave fallen in the water and
that the, that one to four agegroup is, is at most risk of
(16:30):
drowning.
That's where we see the mostproblems.
Um, I would actually say thatit's more two to five, but the
way statistics are broken down,we don't have those numbers,
right?
It's one to four is the numberswe get.
Um, but I would like to see thatnumber change.
And, and my mission is to getthe information into parent
towns because parents are thefirst line of defense against
this.
(16:50):
They're the ones that are thereall the time.
You know, we don't havelifeguards sitting in our
backyard pool.
We don't have lifeguards.
When we go to barbecues, wedon't, you know, we don't hire
our lifeguard when we're havinga family swim.
And, uh, parents are the oneswho are there, and if they have
the right information and theright, uh, knowledge, know-how
and confidence in theirabilities, then and.
(17:12):
Then we can potentially, youknow, eradicate this problem
completely as possible.
Yeah, yeah.
And I have
Melissa (17:22):
some adult friends who said that they just refuse to
teach their children how to swimbecause they don't want them in
the water.
They just don't wanna take achance.
And then I also have adultfriends that say, I cannot go
boating.
I cannot do these things becauseI never learned how to swim and
I wish I would have.
So, I mean, I get parents haveto do what their gut tells them
(17:46):
is the best Yeah.
In raising their child.
Absolutely.
You should always listen to yourgut Yes.
In those things.
But how would you, uh, speak toan adult who's never been taught
how to swim?
How would you start to
Selena (18:00):
teach them?
Yeah.
So, you know, I, I taught adultsfor a long time.
Um, It's not my area ofexpertise.
I'm gonna be honest.
Adults come with a lot morebaggage than I have patience for
a lot of the time, to be honest.
You know, if I'm being a hundredpercent, um, with you.
That being said, it's a mentalgame more than it is a physical
(18:21):
game.
And understanding that is goingto get you a long way because
it's not just about can I float,can I move in the water?
It's can I stay calm becausethere's breath involved.
Yes.
And so if you can't stay calm inthe water, there's no service to
you learning to swim,
Melissa (18:41):
right?
Because it won't make adifference
Selena (18:43):
anyway.
Not gonna make a difference.
What we see is that people who,um, children who don't learn to
swim early, uh, in life.
So when I say early in life, Iam typically talking before, uh,
their developmental milestonearound age five or six.
Okay?
And there's a developmentalmilestone that happens in
children's brains around five orsix.
And people who do not learn howto swim before that
(19:05):
developmental milestone who are,uh, afraid of the water or have
anxiety around the water worry,that kind of thing, that, uh,
that fear, worry, anxietybecomes more ingrained during
that developmental milestone.
And then what we see is thateven learning to swim later on,
if they haven't dealt with thefeelings about it, the emotion
behind it, um, it can be muchharder to overcome later on in
(19:28):
life.
And these people end up.
Some very competent in thewater, but because those
feelings are still a little bitthere because they stuck, right.
Um, they can, they can panicmore easily.
And as bipeds, we are not verygood at getting ourselves over
the water once we panicked,
Melissa (19:47):
like Yeah, yeah.
The enemy of just about anythingwhen it comes to survival,
right?
Selena (19:54):
Yeah.
And in the water, our bodydoesn't even do anything useful
in the water when we're, whenwe're packaging.
Melissa (19:59):
You know, we're in that down position.
We're probably making ourselvesstraight up and down and
flailing
Selena (20:04):
about, and yeah, we're bobbing up and down.
It looks like we're climbing aladder, you know?
And, and it's, uh, and we're notable to, to see or perceive help
coming our way.
Mm-hmm.
And so, um, yeah, we're, we'renot very good at getting
ourselves out of it.
Um, unfortunately, I do
Melissa (20:25):
have a question about gymnastics, if you're willing to
Sure.
Foray in that.
Uh, when I was a kid, I wasterrified of doing a handstand.
I never had an accident.
I never fell, I never had anykind of trauma that would
explain it.
But even still to this day, youknow, I did car wheels and all
(20:46):
that.
Uh, Yeah, I tried a cartwheelnot too long ago after not doing
one for years, and I do notrecommend that.
But plus I was terrified ofdoing
Selena (20:57):
handstands.
Yeah.
So for some people it's the ideaof falling over the other way.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
If you don't have, if you're notup against a wall, um, for some,
and this is a really interestingthing, is for some, if you were
not put upside down as a child,And that's a feeling that your
body may just not want.
(21:19):
Um, we saw years and years.
I, I coached gymnastics foryears and years and years.
And what we often saw were, uh,children who weren't able to do
somersaults, that kind of thing,uh, when speaking with their
parents, never was this childupside down.
Not ever.
Right.
And I actually encourageparents, um, to hold their kids
(21:39):
upside down.
Yeah.
All of'em upside down.
It's fun for them and it givesthem a sense of, you know, all
the ways in which we can be inthis world like a little bit
more and, and what it feels liketo be upside down.
Because if we don't have thatfeeling, a lot of people have
never been upside down and neverwill.
Interesting.
(22:00):
Yeah.
I'm a
Melissa (22:01):
swing set and I hung by my feet all the time Okay.
On this.
And I had older brothers.
I was held by my ankles.
Yeah, that's just always beeninteresting to me.
Yeah, it, yeah.
But what other high fear sportsdo you have experience in?
Selena (22:19):
So those are the two main ones.
Um, I actually, in my, in myswimming, um, career, in my, in
my coaching career, I actuallyworked with the Canadian
military for some time and wedid cold water survival
training.
And so a lot of the, um, Not alot.
Sometimes we would have someone,an adult who would come in for
cold water survival training whocouldn't swim.
(22:41):
And so then it's a whole otherlayer, right, that we have to
put on top of that.
And, um, you know, children andadults are different in their
fear and the way it manifestsand the way they communicate it
and the way that they overcomeit.
Um, so it's always beeninteresting me to me to see, you
know, how, how the children doversus how the adults do.
(23:02):
And, uh, Yeah, that cold watersurvival was an interesting
decade of my life coaching Thatbet.
Melissa (23:08):
Yeah, I bet.
I had a little bit of that.
I was in the National Guard for10 years and on basic army basic
training, he did an afternoon ofthat.
So it wasn't any, anythingreally focused or intense, just
a general exposure to it.
But, uh, I remember the firstquestion was, who has never
(23:28):
learned how to swim?
And they were taken off andtrained differently.
Selena (23:32):
Yes.
They are definitely needing inneed of, of different training.
Um, and then, and then into the,the cold water.
Yeah.
Yeah.
This course was, um, so when Igot there, they actually didn't
have a curriculum at all.
They just did testing.
They did cold water testing.
Um, and so I came in and I builta curriculum and then I
(23:52):
administered it for 10 years.
And we had, uh, it was severalweeks of, of training.
So they'd come in once or twicea week for an hour for training.
And then at the end of it, wehad our,
Melissa (24:04):
our test day.
Yeah.
Interesting.
So, to parents that have youngchildren, or considering having
children soon, what advice wouldyou like them to have?
What do you want them to know ofthem?
Selena (24:18):
Hold your children upside down.
Yeah.
Um, so don't be afraid of, ofputting water in your child's
face.
That's a big one, right?
Your child can't learn how tohold their breath and how to
manage all of that.
Um, if they haven't experiencedit.
And you know, when you considerthat our children are in water
(24:39):
for nine months before they comeout, it's a perfect time right
from the start, right from thestart in bath time, wearing a
face cloth over their face, or,you know, when you're rinsing
hair or dump a cup of water and,and, you know, make sure some
goes over the face.
And then once you feelcomfortable, Get them
underwater, get them submerged.
And I can even give you a littletwo second if you're okay with
(25:01):
it.
A little how to do, okay.
So any child under the age of 12months, but even more than that,
I've seen this up to 24 months.
Even in children, when you blowin their face a strong sharp
blow.
So, uh, they actually shut downthe airway.
(25:21):
Beautiful thing.
So they'll shut down the airwayand you're gonna see it.
They'll go, Like that.
I have no idea what that justlooked like.
That's gonna be interesting towatch over first
Melissa (25:28):
picture.
Um,
Selena (25:30):
great.
So all we do is say 1, 2, 3, go.
And so you'll notice that I'msqueezing.
So this gives the child atactile, uh, cue.
I'm saying it.
So I'm giving a verbal cue andthen when I say Go now with a
young child, you're gonna blowput them under and back up and
(25:51):
that's it.
And once you get up, you.
And take a breath in.
Now.
The reason we want them tomimic.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I love it.
Yeah, love it.
I
Melissa (26:04):
did notice on your website you have, uh, a
downloadable guide, the UltimateSwim Guide for Parents, five
Things to Know For Success.
Yeah, I'm sure that's a greatresource that people should
download it.
And don't worry, folks, thelinks are in the show notes to
the website.
And that'll pop up there on thewebsite.
(26:25):
So you can get ahold of that.
Yes.
And yeah, this has really beeninteresting.
I've learned a lot today.
Selena, thank you for joiningus.
Thank you so much for having me.
Thanks so much for having me.
Any last thoughts you'd like toleave with
Selena (26:41):
us today?
Sure, absolutely.
I'd love to talk about, uh, theprogram that I have.
Yeah, that enable equals parentsto teach their own children to
swim.
You know, we talked about howgetting this information to the
parents' hands is of the utmostimportance.
And, you know, I have this, thisincredible program that, like I
said, we've been doing it foreight years now and, um, we have
(27:01):
a hundred percent success ratein children, two and a half an
up.
So in just 10 lessons, 10practices of under 10 minutes,
your two and a half year old isguaranteed to be swimming in
this program.
Wow.
Yes.
Right, because we've strippedaway the choreography and we've
added in all the emotionalsupport, both for the parents
and for the children.
(27:22):
And, um, so basically the co theprogram is called Swim to Me,
and in it I teach the parentshow to teach their child to swim
and self rescue.
We give you all the water safetystuff and we give you all the
communication stuff, right?
For the children who are, forthe parents who are thinking, my
child's not gonna listen to me.
(27:42):
I give you all of that, it's allin there.
Um, and we support you.
It's fully supported.
So you'll have access to methroughout the program and what
I'm doing because I really,really, really feel like this is
really important for allfamilies, is twofold.
So one is Melissa, I'm gonnaleave you with a coupon code.
So that, uh, listeners can get15% off the program.
(28:03):
Awesome.
And the other thing is I wanteverybody to know this is a
lifetime access program.
So if you have more than onechild and one of them is of age,
now you can hop in now and it'sno extra cost down the line.
You still have the support, youhave everything through all of
the children you need to teach.
So we've packaged it this waybecause I truly believe that it
is of the absolute importancethat all children learn to swim
(28:26):
and.
Children are expensive as it is,and more to the family, it gets
more and more expensive.
And so I wanted to make surethat there was something for
families who had, um, multiplechildren and, and could jump
into a program that, um, willallow them to teach all their
children at one price.
Selena, that's amazing.
Melissa (28:46):
And thank you for that coupon code.
You're very welcome.
All right.
It's been a pleasure.
It's been enlightening and it'sbeen fun.
So thank you so much and I lookforward to diving deeply.
See what I did there and so whatyou have to offer.
Thank you so
Selena (29:05):
much, Melissa.
It was great chatting with you.
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