October 28, 2023 • 49 mins
Promise one thing: by the end of this conversation with bestselling author and professional speaker, Michael McQueen, you'll have an entirely new perspective on open-mindedness and persuasion. We embark on a deep exploration of the human mind, uncovering the psychology behind stubbornness and taking a fresh look at the art of ethically influencing others. Michael, renowned for his insightful perspectives, shares critical nuggets from his book, Mindstruck: Mastering the Art of Changing Minds, and discusses how we can become more open-minded and encourage others to do the same.
As we navigate this fascinating discussion, we compare modern persuasion techniques with principles from Dale Carnegie's classic, How to Make Friends and Influence People. There's a unique focus on the importance of allowing people to maintain their dignity during persuasion, a strategy that has proven beneficial for large companies like Pepsi and KPMG. We'll also dive headfirst into the seismic changes witnessed in the automotive industry due to the pandemic and the intricacies of leading a team in a remote or hybrid environment.
Lastly, we take a journey through the generational labyrinth of the workplace, highlighting the impact of social and technological transformations. We'll touch on the art of effective communication and the power it holds in shaping future thinking. So, gear up for an episode packed with insights that will challenge your perception, redefine your understanding of persuasion, and equip you with the tools to navigate the rapidly evolving professional landscape. Get ready to change minds and perspectives, including your own.
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https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/contributors/thomas-r-verny-md
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Good morning in Australia, good evening in
Canada.
This is Pushing Boundaries, apodcast about pioneering
research, breakthroughdiscoveries and unconventional
ideas.
I'm your host, dr Thomas RBirney.
My guest today is MichaelMcQueen, a Sydney-based social
(00:24):
researcher, professional speakerand bestselling author of eight
books.
Is it eight or is it more?
Speaker 2 (00:32):
This is that one.
The new one clicks over 10.
So, yeah, it's like that's sortof rack up.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Okay, 10.
I'm going to correct that of 10books, okay.
And with clients, he has hadsome incredible clients,
including KPMG, pepsi Cola andCisco.
He has helped some of theworld's most successful brands
(01:00):
navigate disruption and maintainmomentum.
In addition to featuringregularly as a commentator on TV
and radio, michael is afamiliar face on the
international conference circuit, having shared the stage with
the likes of Bill Gates, dr JohnMaxwell and Apple co-founder
(01:20):
Steve Wozniak.
I bet you have some interestingstories about that.
Indeed, michael has spoken toover 500,000 people across five
continents since 2004.
Having been formerly namedAustralia's keynote speaker of
the year, michael has beeninducted into the Professional
(01:42):
Speakers Hall of Fame.
Welcome, michael.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Thank you so much and thank you for making the time.
Lovely to be able to have achat on air We've been back in
fourth via email but lovely toput a proper face to the name
and the voices.
Well, thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Your most recent book , mindstruck Mastering the Art
of Changing Minds, serves up amultitude of facts and insights
about how to help yourself tobecome more open-minded, but
also about how to influenceother people.
Now, am I getting that mixed upabout the open-minded about
(02:17):
another book, or is that?
No, that's exactly it.
Okay, yeah, all right, so whydon't we start there?
So perhaps you could talk alittle bit about what set you on
writing this book and give us anutshell idea of what it's
(02:40):
about.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Yeah.
So the book's all aboutessentially the psychology of
stubbornness, and that's atwo-way deal.
That's why are we stubborn Now?
Why do we get locked in certainways of thinking that aren't
serving us well?
But also, why do others getlocked into certain ways of
thinking that are notconstructive or helpful?
And I guess the question thatdrives the book in many ways is
why don't people change, evenwhen they want to and they know
(03:04):
they should?
And then how do you try and, inan ethical way, with integrity
and with their best interest inmind, help other people change
their perspective and changetheir minds?
So the notion is quite, I guess, calling a new word, Mindstuck,
this idea that we get Mindstuckas human beings.
Then how do you get out of thatstate?
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Mm-hmm, okay, so I think what you try to do is
persuasion without coercion.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
That's the goal, because there are so many books
and I mean you ought to comeacross so many of them over the
years as well and I understandthat they want to be intensely
practical and useful.
But a lot of those books that Ican think of a number right now
that actually, if you reallytake the tips and the principles
in them to the extreme, theyare tools of manipulation or
coercion.
Yes, even some of the NLP,neuro Linguistic Programming
(03:55):
stuff.
It's just been a bituncomfortable to me.
It always feels a little bitunderhanded.
You're trying to get someone todo things in a way that's
tricky or conniving, even ifit's not intended to be that.
So I wanted to write a bookthat was quite different.
So the purpose of this book ishow do you arrive at points of
truth together with others?
I think, if that's one thingthat we've lost the ability to
(04:17):
do in the last few years andwe've, of course, lived through
the last five or six years thathave been intensely tribal,
where people have looked at theworld through the lens of
identity.
Often, rather than asking thequestion of what is true, we'll
ask questions of what are?
People like me think aboutsomething like this, people from
my tribe.
And so, rather than actuallyevaluating or considering ideas,
we often run straight to thatsense of you know you're either
(04:39):
with me or for me and anyonethat I know whose side of an
issue you're on.
Then I'll listen to what you'vegot to say.
And so how do we arrive atthose points again where we can
listen to each other and learnfrom each other?
And, ideally, if you're wantingto persuade someone else in
your world and it can be infamily context or at work how to
do that successfully butwithout being coercive or
manipulative, and there is afine art to doing that well.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
So how do you do it?
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Give us a few examples the first thing is, if
you're looking at, say,stubbornness within ourselves,
and it is ideally a book thatlooks at both.
The first thing I'd encourageanyone to do and I actually had
this very experience yesterdaywhere I was like I need to.
You know, we've got toconsistently learn from our own
stuff, you know, like make surewe're applying what we're
researching and writing toourselves.
And I think the first thingwould be reflect on your
(05:27):
reactions.
And when you notice yourselfhave a reaction to an idea or a
perspective that is not open,and you know what that feels
like.
We all know what that feelslike when the hackles go up on
the back of your neck and you gointo flight mode.
You want to argue or debate.
Now Andy Stanley, who's aleadership author based in the
States, puts it really well.
He says actions speak louderthan words, but reactions speak
(05:50):
louder than both.
I think there's such truth inthat, like when you notice
yourself having one of thosestrong reactions, a
disproportionately strongreaction, big, a little bit
beneath that.
What's what's actually going onhere?
And a lot of the research Ifound interesting in the book
was understanding how our brainsare, our minds, and the
difference between those two.
I mean I'd love to unpack withyou for an hour because I found
(06:12):
your book in that regardfascinating.
But if we just look at thisidea of cognition alone for the
moment, like what happens in ourbrains I'm Drew Weston at Emory
University did some reallyinteresting research a few years
ago where he looked at responsetimes or processing times,
using brain scans, of wherepeople were exposed to different
ideas or bits of information.
So what he found, which wasinteresting, is that if the
(06:32):
information someone was exposedto, confronted or challenged a
deeply held belief, it wasattached to their identity, be
it religious or political oreven just ideological.
In the workplace, theirreaction times were fractional,
like almost instant reactions,whereas if you promote, if you
provided them with content thatwas related to something that
they had no great attachment tomaybe a new way of understanding
(06:54):
sunscreens or the manufacturingprocess of yogurt their
response times are forming anopinion about that were much
slower.
And what became very clear isthat we are actually curious
when it comes to newinformational ideas that don't
threaten us, but the momentthere's a threat involved to our
beliefs, it's like the reactiontimes and what became clear is
we don't even consider them, wejust instantly go to a default
(07:15):
of react.
So I think that's the firstthing for all of us is when we
notice that in ourselves or withothers, to notice what's
actually happening behind thescenes and also in that moment
of asking okay, who's your brainrooting for right now?
I mean, in Australia we use theterm barracking, which, if your
team's on the sports field,you're rooting for your team,
you're barracking for your team.
Same sort of concepts, and Ithink we we see that happen when
(07:36):
it comes to ideas, even when wethink we are super open minded.
There's one side of a debatethat deep down and you feel you
know when it's happening.
When someone in that debatefrom from your side, you don't
even know you've got a side yet.
Or when your side scores apoint, he makes a point that
could win the argument you'relike yes, you know you and
you'll accept it without anyevidence because it confirms
what you believe to be true.
(07:56):
Whereas when, of course, theopposing team something you
don't like scores a point ormakes a good case, you instantly
go into, are you trying to pickholes in it?
And we so naturally do this.
So a lot of, a lot of the booklooks at why that happens, why
we arrive at points of certaintyand judgment.
What happens in our brains nowmight do that, but also then,
how do you shift people out ofthat?
Speaker 1 (08:16):
So all of that sounds really good.
The problem, as I see it, theproblem with books like yours
and mine is that the people whopicked them up are already
halfway there.
Yes, yeah, Okay, and you know,your book is not going to be
(08:40):
picked up by one of the proudboys in the United States, right
?
People who are really what youcall stubborn, which I think is
very tactful and diplomatic, butessentially people with closed
minds are not going to pick upyour book and read about it.
(09:04):
And so how do you talk topeople who have already chosen
sides and believe in all theconspiracy theories?
For example, how do you getthem.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
That's probably.
Conspiracy belief is one of themost difficult, because the
influence, of course, ofalgorithms means that by the
time you've gone down thatrabbit hole and fully subscribed
to a conspiracy belief, you'venot just attached a new identity
yourself for someone whobelieves that thing, but you've
attached an entire new community, and your community of fellow
(09:42):
believers is defined by the factthat you're separate from the
majority and you've got theother keepers of knowledge that
the mainstream don't have, andso that, of course, is very
difficult to break, becausechanging someone's mind when
they've gone fully down thatrabbit hole of conspiracy belief
means not just walking awayfrom a belief but walking away
from their community, but alsowalking away from their sense of
security that comes from, Iknow, something that everyone
else is privy to, knowledge thateveryone else doesn't have.
(10:04):
So conspiracy belief is reallychallenging.
So Josh Compton has done somegood work around how to pre,
bunk or inoculate people againstconspiracy belief, and he's
probably so.
Him and a guy named SandraVanderlinden have done probably
the best work in this regard,and they say the best way to
prevent people from going downthe rabbit hole is to
(10:25):
essentially expose into adiluted form of misinformation,
give them the tools to processit and understand it and,
essentially, fight it.
Much the way our bodies respondwhen we have a vaccine or an
inoculation and therefore, whenthey're exposed to the real
version, they know what to do.
And so if you can get to peoplewhen they're in the early
stages of conspiracy belief, forinstance, that's helpful when
(10:46):
they've gone right down therabbit hole.
The only thing I've found usefulso far in terms of looking at
the research of what works andwhat doesn't, is a thing called
paradoxical thinking, whichseems so strange, but it's a
model, and I can't even rememberwhere it came from now, which
university and which researcherdid it, but the idea was you
expose someone to a more extremeversion of the belief they hold
and in doing so, createcontrast.
(11:08):
So, for instance, right nowwe've got a referendum happening
in Australia around recognizingour First Nations people in the
constitution, and it has gottenso messy.
It's gotten right versus left,conservative versus progressive,
what should have been, and Ihonestly, when it was launched
as a referendum, I thought thiswill be a unanimous thing.
It seemed like a really goodidea and it's gotten so tense.
(11:30):
So I'm speaking to people whoare like if we give the
indigenous people a voice toparliament, which is what the
referendum is about.
They'll take back our land, ourhomes, we'll have to fill in
our swimming pools and there'sno basis for any of that.
But this is what people who'vegone down that extreme level
think.
So when you've got someone,let's say who's saying I don't
want to vote for this in thereferendum because I don't like
(11:52):
the idea of giving people avoice if we don't have clear
checks and balances in place.
If you can expose them to amore extreme version, I go.
Yes, I know I get it.
I get the concern.
There are even people who havethis fear that and then give the
expose them to a more extremeversion of their belief.
Their first reaction is like oh, I would never say that, I'd
never go that far.
And even by creating thecontrast between a more extreme
(12:14):
version of what they believe,you break it up.
You're breaking the soil upjust enough for them to think is
it possible?
My view is a bit the same.
Not based on anything that'sreasonable or logical.
It's not going to win theargument, but at least it tilts
the soil and allows you to havea conversation.
The tricky thing in that andit's, of course in any
persuasion technique is you'vegot to allow them to save face.
(12:35):
The moment people feel eventhat hint that they're cornered
or shamed, I'll shut down.
And I think one of the mosthelpful things I've kept in
front of mind as I've writtenthe book is this notion that
everyone, everything that anyonethinks, makes perfect sense to
them, like even the mostludicrous thing they think.
How could you possibly thinkthat in their mind?
(12:56):
They've got a narrative whichmeans it makes sense, and so
I've got to start with and gookay, but make sense to them.
Shaming or trying to logicfullythem into changing their view
is the opposite of what's goingto work.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
That's good, that's smart.
Yeah, you're absolutely right.
You're absolutely right.
So everybody knows, I guess, bynow, Dale Carnegie's how to
Make Friends and InfluencePeople in 1936.
So how does your book differfrom that?
Speaker 2 (13:29):
I guess it's a good point because in many ways, when
I started off writing this book, someone said what's your
vision for this book?
And I thought I guess it'squite grandiose really when I
think about it.
But I said I'd love to writethe how to Make Friends and
Influence People of the 21stcentury.
I'd love to write a book thatis really practical and useful
across a huge cross-section, andthat was the.
I mean, the genius of that bookis that it was really good for
(13:50):
people who were in work contextsor family contexts and in so
many different ways you coulduse it.
And I wanted to write a bookthat was like that, because in
the persuasion space there's alot that's written with
advertisers in mind or salespeople in mind or maybe leaders
in mind.
But I wanted to write somethingthat, if you're a mum of a 16
year old and you just you'retrying to get your 16 year old
to get off the screen or engagein homework or make better
(14:12):
choices, it would be useful foryou, as it would be in that.
So I really wanted to write abook that was similar.
In that sense, I think the bigdifference between what I've
produced with mine stuck and sayhow to Influence People is Dale
Carnegie was right about somuch, but no one knew why there
were.
There was so little science atthe time as to why people, why
the things he suggested worked,and so the beauty is, I wanted
(14:35):
to write a book that didn't justlook at how to change people's
minds and encourage people tobecome more open minded, but
look at why the stuff that worksactually works.
What's what's happening in ourbrains and, more broadly, that
means these things are effectivebecause it's stuff that we just
didn't know in 1936.
So I wanted to bring togetherreally practical and also
timeless principles, but pairthem up with really recent
(14:56):
research and some of theresearch I've come across from
people like you, from peoplelike your book.
To me it put language around somuch that I'd been thinking and
trying to pin down and you know, when you read a book you're
like yes this is exactly whatI've been trying to define or
describe, so there's a few bookslike that that were just very
helpful.
So I wanted to bring all of thatstuff together and make it very
(15:16):
accessible to again, a mum witha 16 year old right through the
leader of a corporate team.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Okay, I can understand.
That Makes a lot of sense.
What do large companies likePepsi or KPMG?
How do they benefit from youradvice?
What do you tell them?
What are they asking?
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Yeah, the big thing, the question this is a big part
of why I wrote the book is thatwhen I'm working with these
sorts of clients and it can bethe clients that listeners would
know, but a lot of them, a lotof my clients are not known.
They're like a governmentdepartment responsible for
policy development, for instance, and they're facing the same
sorts of challenges that aFortune 500 brand is facing, but
(15:57):
they're just not as highprofile.
And I think for any leaderright now, the challenge is how
do you change your people in away that lasts?
Because you can try andencourage change through
incentivizing or through threatsof punishment, like do this or
else, and that change will onlylast as long as either the
(16:17):
incentives are there or thethreat of punishment exists.
The moment those thingsdisappear, people just go back
to the way they were doing it,and so a lot of my work over the
years is the frustration I'veseen is I'll work with, let's
say, a leadership team aroundnow.
What's coming in the next threeto five years from a disruption
and trends perspective?
What do you need to be doing togetting ready for it?
And these leaders will go.
Okay, I get it.
I can see now what we need tobe doing.
(16:37):
How do I get my team on board?
Or I'm speaking to someone okay, I get this, but I've got to
influence up.
I've got to get my executiveteam to be open to this as an
idea.
So what I've wanted to do withthis book is essentially answer
that question of okay, it's onething to arm clients with the
skills for knowing how to adaptand change and stay relevant,
which I've been doing for twodecades basically now but I
(16:59):
wanted to also give them thetools to bring others along for
the journey willingly, asopposed to you must, because I'm
the boss and I said you've gotto.
And so that's where I wanted toreally address that gap,
because that's the question Iwould get literally day after
day after day from clients is Iget what needs to happen, but I
can't seem to get my team tocome on the journey and do so
willingly.
They're stuck, they're oftenfixed in very stubborn views.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
So a couple of years ago, speaking of that, you
released a digital book calledthe new now, which examined the
10 trends that you thought willdominate a post COVID world and
how leaders and organizationscan gear up to them.
Can you tell me a few of those10 trends?
(17:45):
What do you see happening?
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Well, I think yeah, I mean that book was really.
Essentially it built on a bookthat came out pre COVID.
Looking at the disruptions thatwe're going to shape the next
few years.
What we saw in the COVID yearsis we saw and the best way I had
to describe was it's like wesaw the future arrive ahead of
schedule and it did in so manyways, things that we thought
were five or 10 years away astrends happened in 18 months
(18:07):
because of the pandemic.
So that book was essentially anupdate in many ways and stuff
that I've been tracking for acouple of years, but the things
that were happening now in realtime.
So, obviously, the shift towarde-commerce rapidly accelerated
when lockdowns meant that peoplehad to use online services or
click and collect in ways theyhadn't used before.
So we've seen the grocerymarket change rapidly over the
(18:28):
last few years.
Look what's happening in theautomotive space with, say,
self-driving car technology.
Again, the pandemic meant thatregulators actually gave the
green light for some of thosetests to be fast tracked because
they realized the risk was youhad all these human drivers
driving around people andspreading COVID, and so we saw
states like Arizona andCalifornia give the green light
for driverless car technology tobecome a reality, honestly, six
(18:50):
or seven years ahead of when wethought it would be.
And so we've seen so many ofthose sorts of things that have
come to the fore in ways that wejust we thought were a long way
off but have happened morequickly.
And so I guess the challengefor many of my clients now is
they're realizing the world ischanging fast and now they've
got to figure out how to getready for it and gear up quickly
without losing that sense ofwho they are.
And one of the big things we'veseen, of course, throughout the
(19:12):
pandemic and it's lingering totoday, is the shift towards
remote and hybrid work, which isso difficult.
Because how do you, if you're aleader, how do you build a team
and build a team culture wherepeople aren't necessarily around
each other all the time?
How do you influence or persuadepeople who you don't know, who
you haven't got that sense ofsocial credit with because
you've not worked with them andknow their families and know
(19:32):
their backstory and what sportsthey're interested in?
And so I think that's thetricky thing I'm finding now is
we've seen that remote work andhybrid work thing become the
default in many of my clientorganizations, and how do you
lead that sort of a team andbuild culture?
That's a very tricky question,because culture is caught, not
taught.
You pick up culture by beingaround other people in a team in
a remote or hybrid environment.
(19:54):
It's difficult, you can do it,but it's difficult to build that
sort of culture.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
So how would you do it?
What sort of advice do youproffer?
Speaker 2 (20:06):
How do you?
Yeah, for leaders who aretinkering with this, who are
realizing they've got thesedispersed teams, first thing is
you've got to have intensivetimes.
When you bring people together,there is literally no
substitute for being physicallyin the same location.
That doesn't mean you have todo what's a sales force or
Twitter or Meta or any of theseother companies have done in the
last three or four months,which is like you've got to come
back in three days a week,mandatory.
(20:27):
And you notice, of course, themoment that happens, everyone
pushes back.
You can't tell me.
I mean, in itself isfascinating.
Imagine if we'd said that backin 2019, that everyone was going
to push back at you, daring toask them to come back to the
office three days a week.
Imagine that.
So, rather than having that,maybe it's, and you see a few
companies that'll have what theycall core weeks in the year.
(20:48):
So there might be two-weekblocks where you want everyone
in the office five days a week,and that only happens maybe once
every three months, and thebeauty is, in those times you
build the relationships, youbuild those strong connections,
or you have team off-site eventsonce a quarter.
So, instead of having aconference where you gather the
team together for one day at theHilton Ballroom in a windowless
(21:08):
space where you're all sittinglistening to five speakers,
having an off-site where youbuild those relationships.
The other thing I'm findingreally helpful for clients is,
if you're having new staffkicking off, for the first two
or three weeks have them in theoffice full-time so they get
that feel for who's who and howthings work.
And then they can over time, bydegrees, start working remotely
more.
But you've got to get them,you've got to have them feel
(21:29):
connected out of the gate.
If they don't haverelationships, they don't feel
connected, if far less engaged,far less connected to purpose,
the organization's purpose, andthey're also far less likely to
stick around.
Loyalty is a function ofrelationships in so many
instances, particularly withyounger generations, so having
that sense of strong connectionand social connection at work is
really important.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Yeah, that makes sense.
So I think you mentioned thefact that for the last 20 years
you have been working in thisarea.
Is that correct?
Yeah, that's correct.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
So how did you get into it to begin with?
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Yeah, so well.
Firstly, I was young, I was 22when I started doing this work,
and so obviously I was notworking with Fortune 500
companies and doing strategydays at the age of 22.
Where I started was looking atthe generation gap from the
perspective of one of the youngpunks, one of the young people
that everyone was talking about,which was that millennial
cohort Right.
So back in 2004, when I starteddoing the work I was doing in
(22:25):
late 2003, it was like everyonewas talking about the baby
boomers versus Gen X versus themillennials.
Why were we different?
How much of the differenceswere substantive as opposed to a
function of life stage?
And then how do you bridgethose gaps?
And so I did a body of research, starting back in 2003, 2004,
interviewing and working with80,000 young people right around
(22:47):
the world, looking at what'smaking them tick, what are their
expectations around theworkplace, and then I sort of
condensed all that together intoa book, looking at how
organizations and leaders couldengage their emerging workforce.
So that's where I started,initially all around
generational change, and how doyou sort of gear up for that?
And then the scope broadened tolook at not just generational
change but social change,technological change and then
(23:08):
the trends all associated withthose things.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
So was that like part of your PhD thesis, or what?
Speaker 2 (23:15):
It wasn't.
So I did an undergraduatedegree straight after school
just in commerce, and then wentfrom that and all of the
research I've done since hasbeen out of personal interest or
stuff that I think will beuseful for clients.
So that research project I meanit was a very thorough piece of
work I probably should havedone as part of a PhD.
It would have been sensible tokill two birds with one stone,
(23:37):
but I just did it out ofinterest and based on what I was
seeing as the trends as theyformed in young people, but also
what clients were asking for,what were the pain points for
organizations and then trying toplug those or at least solve
them.
So that's typically been thefocus for me.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
So how did you finance that?
Like, how could you interview80,000 people on your own?
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Good question.
So well, firstly, bootstrappingand being young and not having
a mortgage in kids that helps.
So, it was.
So initially what I did is Iput together a program of
essentially seminars for year,what we call Year 10 students,
so in Australia, year 10 to age16.
So the last two or three yearsof high school.
And so we'd run these programs,initially just in Sydney, where
(24:20):
it was home for me, and thennationally and then overseas as
well, and they were all aroundthe school to work transition.
So schools would pay me and Ihad a team of other speakers
that grew over time to go in andrun these programs, and at the
end of the programs we do thesesurveys with students, and so it
was a really sort of symbioticrelationship where we were able
to add value at schools andcolleges and then also get us,
(24:42):
you know, put our finger on thepulse of what's happening in all
these different communities.
What students were expecting andthinking and so that was how it
was funded was essentially waspart of what we were doing in
schools, and it was slow going.
I mean, schools are great onceyou're in, but they're very
they're very heavily networked.
So it's hard to get known inthe schools world Once you're
known, they all talk, and so itwas a very slow burn to get
(25:04):
started.
So anyone who's listening,who's in that like startup zone
and it's like trying to makeends meet month after month, I
get it.
That was the first.
You know it's six or 12 monthsand we were just first early
married, like it was.
It was that time where it'slike, well, is any time to do it
?
That is a good time to do it,but it's also a tricky time.
So it was very much thatbootstrapping startup stage.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
So did you yourself come up with the idea of
interviewing these students tofind out how they were thinking?
Was that your own idea or didsomebody?
It was.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
Yeah, so the process to get into this was interesting
.
So I had this idea of doingsome research around
generational change and maybedoing some writing, and I'd
always been interested in thespeaking writing world, even as
a young person I was.
I love listening to greatcommunicators.
I remember going to a couple ofconferences for my parents'
work because the babysitter fellthrough and just sitting in
(25:57):
these events listening to peoplepresent and thinking that's,
I'd love to do that, that'd beawesome.
So it was always on the radarand so when I was looking at how
, what, what, what could I do tosort of be of value in that
space and do something that willbe fresh and new and relevant?
The generational thingsobviously was a starting point
because I was young.
So I'm like I can't be anexpert in March at age 22, but I
(26:19):
can be an expert in being youngbecause I am.
And so I'd written the firstdraft of a book basically
looking at generationaldifferences.
What it lacked was the on theground stuff.
The on the ground, you know,speaking to the young people
themselves and you sense ofwhat's happening, having primary
research data, and so I'd givenit to my dad to read.
So my dad had been a guidancecounsellor in a high school for
(26:39):
20 something years and he saidthere is such a need for this.
You could actually run theseprograms in schools and then
bulk onto that some research ofthe young people as you're doing
it.
So he'd had the idea, and so itwas one of those sort of
moments where I could have goneother way.
So he read this manuscript, hadthat idea.
Six days later, no notice,passed away, heart attack out of
(27:00):
nowhere, fit and healthy, 51years of age.
But two days before he'd passedaway, he sent one email to a
woman who is the head of theCareers Guidance Association of
the state we live in and justsaid I just want to introduce my
son to you.
He's written some stuff thatcould be useful in schools.
So after the funeral was doneand all the dust has started to
settle, I remember like open myemail, got back to work.
(27:22):
In the email was there from himintroducing me to Lynn Camp was
her name, and so I thought I mayas well give it a shot, almost
to honor him.
I'm like he's gone to thetrouble to set this up.
It's almost in and one, sincethe last thing he's left is his
email intro and so I emailed her.
She was kind enough because Ithink she was feeling sorry for
me to have a meeting and shehelped me get started and like
that's, that's where it allbegan.
(27:42):
So it's it's a very specialthing, because it was such a
thin thread that could have goneeither way.
But yeah, so much of that wasfrom that pivotal experience.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
So what was it that you were doing that your father
thought would be helpful toother people?
What was it that you were doing?
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Well, he was.
So the book that I'd initiallywritten was all about how baby
boomers and Gen X is differentfrom millennials, and it looked
at the historical context.
So what are the things thathappened in the formative stages
of each of those generations?
That was, you know?
That meant they had a certainparadigm or worldview, and how
did that apply to the way thatthey were working?
So he said the tricky thingwe're seeing is we're sending
(28:21):
students out into the workforceafter school and they might have
the knowledge that they needfrom school, but if I don't know
how to for want of a betterterm play the game, understand
how their bosses are thinkingand how to work with others who
are from a different generation,that's where.
That's where they're fallingdown.
And he said there's governmentfunding to help with this sort
of stuff, to help students makethat transition from school to
(28:42):
work.
He said this material fits intothat funding model beautifully.
It's exactly what schools arebeing asked to provide to
students.
No one much is doing it.
Knock yourself out, give it ago.
And so that was what I thinkyou saw was valuable.
Was that the thing thatstudents weren't getting at
school at the time?
Speaker 1 (28:59):
And what did you find ?
What were they not getting?
Speaker 2 (29:03):
I think the big thing and it's funny because you sort
of hear the trope that youngpeople are all and then you fill
in the blanks disrespectful,lacking work ethic, with the
rest One of the things that waspretty clear was there was a
sense of ambition and enthusiasmwith Generation Y or the
millennials, that if it didn'tpresent well, if it didn't
present with humility, cameacross as entitlement and
(29:26):
presumption, and so a lot of itwas saying when you go into the
workplace, you need to recognizethat your natural zeal for
wanting to take on new roles andideally, be a leader soon, and
that ambition can be perceivedas being precocious or entitled
If you don't also go in with aposture of openness, of like, I
want to be mentored, I'm keen tolearn, and so I try to
(29:47):
understand and looking at whatwe're seeing with Generation Y
in terms of what do they expectfrom a pay packet perspective,
what do they expect?
And so how quickly they've beenleadership, and so you think,
wow, that's so naive.
But it was a function of ageneration who grew up in the
era of self-esteem, where theywere told they could be anything
they wanted to be, do anythingthey wanted to do, and so you
wanted to make sure that theywent into the workplace, not
(30:07):
that in a way that that wouldget squashed, but also they went
into the workplace with arealistic expectation and an
ability to go in and learn andnot be, not essentially get a
one's hackles up straight out ofthe gate by being a young,
precocious, wanting to run theshow tomorrow, type thing.
That's what we saw is just someof those mismatches and
expectations that were afunction of the era that Gen Y
or that millennial group hadbeen raised in.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
So that sounds fantastic.
And how did you move from thatto your next project, which was
more about like stubbornness andhow to persuade people that
sort of stuff?
How did you move?
Speaker 2 (30:43):
So each of the books has basically been, I guess, the
next step.
You know I'm often asked aquestion of how do you come up
with ideas for what you writeabout?
And typically I just listen,like if you listen well enough,
your clients will tell you whatthey need.
Your clients will tell youwhat's frustrating them and
being difficult for them intheir roles.
So initially I spent a wholelot of years doing this
generational stuff.
So I wrote three books aroundthat whole bridge in the
(31:05):
generation gap discussion, andthen I realized that this is
only part of the equation.
There's a lot more going on.
If you just sort of scan out oneor two steps from the
generational piece, the broadercontext is societal attitudes
are changing and technology ismoving fast and consumer
expectations are changing.
There's a whole other that'shappening around this and in
some ways the flywheel has beenkicked off by generational
(31:27):
change.
Now a lot of these things arehappening because younger
generations are coming throughusing new technologies, having
different expectations, and sogradually that becomes the norm.
And so, looking at what washappening more broadly, so the
next three or four books lookedat this question of where's the
world heading, how do you getready for change.
How do businesses that stay atthe cutting edge over a long
period of time do that?
(31:47):
So how do you not become theKodak?
The sea is the blackberries ofthe world.
You know what do thosebusinesses do wrong?
How do they not pick what wascoming or identify the trends
before it wiped them out?
And then, having done a lot ofthat work over the last probably
the last 12 years, has beenmainly focused in that space.
Again, the question wasconsistently I get it, I know
(32:09):
what's coming now, I know whatwe need to do, but I can't get
my team on the journey.
So that's where the persuasionpsychology of stubbornness
material came from.
I was just seeing thatconsistently coming up with
clients.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
Was there?
Was there any particular personor client that kind of
triggered this interest instubbornness?
Speaker 2 (32:30):
That's a great question, not a particular
client, but I can think of a fewconversations.
I remember one particularly wasat the Hilton Hotel in Sydney,
downtown Sydney.
There was a woman there who wasrunning a fairly large team for
one of the banks and she youknow, when you speak to someone
and they're not just frustrated,they are frustrated their whole
body.
She was so exasperated.
She said I've been trying toget my team to embrace I can't
(32:54):
even remember what the newtechnology platform was, was
something new that they neededto do.
And she said, if we don't do itin the next six months, like we
are dead in the water.
But she said they just won't.
And I've given them all thereasons, all the logic, I've
done PowerPoint presentationsand videos and but they just not
going along for the journey.
And I remember that and that wasprobably I don't already had
the idea to write this book atthat stage, but that was one of
(33:15):
those moments.
I'm like this is a felt need.
It's not just wouldn't it benice if we could give some
people some tips and tools?
It's like this is stuff that'sactually keeping people awake at
night and making their livesvery difficult, and that sense
of exasperation.
I do remember that being a verypivotal moment.
Early on that I thought Ireally I definitely need to
write this book next, because Iwas seeing those same sorts of
(33:35):
things come up time again and Ithink to just realizing a lot of
what we've been told for somany years.
It's sort of not true.
You know this notion thateveryone's inherently afraid of
change.
That's a natural human thing tobe afraid of change.
And yet some of the moreinteresting research I came
across in writing the book wasthat it's actually that's not
true.
We're not afraid of change.
What we're afraid of is lossand so if you underpin.
(33:57):
What is it that?
What's the fear of?
What's the loss associated withchange?
Rather than trying to dress thechange up or upsell the change,
you've got to lessen the loss,try and make the loss feel
manageable or not threatening,or at least the choice of the
person that's engaging in it.
And so things like the loss ofthe loss of certainty, the loss
of power, the loss of dignity,typically when people are
(34:18):
digging their heels in, it'sthat fear of losing one of those
things that stop in themchanging.
And so, rather than trying topush harder or give more
evidence or logic, understandwhat the law says and address
that.
And that's so often that that'senough in and of itself to
shift the game.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
I think that's incredibly true.
I think that is so true, yeah,that that really resonates with
me.
You mentioned before that wasit one day when your parents
couldn't get a, couldn't get ababy sitter they took you.
Is that sort of the most vividmemory of your childhood, or are
(34:57):
there some other ones that kindof stand out that you think
sort of made a difference interms of your career choice?
Speaker 2 (35:06):
That's a great question, I think.
Certainly I remember that thatday that conference was very,
very vivid.
I remember it was always eight.
I remember I was eight, maybenine, but I think I was eight
years of age.
And this conference is, there'sa woman speaking from the
States who was actually speakingand it was speaking about
personality styles and she justcaptured this audience and it
(35:27):
was just it was.
It was not high grow academic,it was just very accessible but
very well researched.
She was funny and engaging.
And yeah, I remember justthinking.
I remember saying to mum anddad as we were leaving that day,
that's what I want to do.
And so they of course thepolite parental response yeah,
that's nice, yeah, cool.
You know, you just assume it'llbe nice, it'll be in the same
category as being a fireman oran astronaut, but it's stuck
(35:48):
like it really did and it wassort of just something that
that's funny when I speak topeople.
In fact, we're having a NewYear's Eve party this year and I
was catching up with somefriends yesterday.
We're talking about the themefor this news new year's Eve
party and the theme is going tobe come with what you'd like to
be when you grow up and they alllaughed and said you're the
boring one, because you'll justcome as what you are.
Because, like it is so truethat I just I feel like this is
(36:09):
all I've ever wanted to do and Ilove it, and I realize what a
privilege that is and how rareit is, yes, yes, to be doing
what you love and to know that,like a couple of close
colleagues, their biggestfrustration is they just they're
like turning 40.
And they still have no ideawhat they want to do when they
grow up.
I can I just the inner angstthat causes and I feel so deeply
for them because I'm like Idon't know how to, how do you
(36:30):
help someone figure that out?
That's got to be a journey.
They go on to a large extent ontheir own, but I just I can't
relate in the sense that I'veknown since I was really young
exactly what I wanted to do andI've had like the crazy
privilege of being able to do itand I've worked really hard.
But also there's favor, there'sluck, there's good timing.
I mean I would never assumeit's just all, of course, my
cleverness that I've fallen intothis.
(36:50):
So, yeah, I just I love what Iget to do, and it really was
probably from that age, that ageeight, that it was on the radar
for me.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
What, what was it about that woman and her
speaking that sort of made animpression on you.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
It's a great question because I can't remember
anything she said.
I mean obviously so long ago.
I remember she was wearing abright blue dress.
Isn't it funny the thingsvisually that stick with you.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
Yes yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
The sparkly sort of dress.
I think Her name was FlorenceLittower, that's her name.
She's been she passed away, Ibelieve, only quite recently,
but she'd been a speaker fordecades and she was just a
masterful communicator.
You know, that whole thatability to hold a whole room in
the palm of your hands withouthigh energy, without any rara,
(37:38):
just by being having a magnetism, and there's something about
that that has just, it's alwaysbeen my goal is to have that
ability to influence people froma platform without being larger
than life, because I'm not likeI'll be on the stage in front
of 20,000 people and I'm likeit's just like this, like I'm
just having a conversation, andthere's something about that
(37:58):
that I just find from, at leastfor me and for my tone works the
moment I try and speak it up,and it's bigger than it is Like
there's insincerity, that justmeans the audience doesn't
connect.
And so I remember she did thatbeautifully.
There was just, it was justvery real, very compelling, very
funny, and that made a hugeimpact.
And so that was certainly theway I wanted to do that sort of
thing, if and when.
(38:18):
So like at age eight I didn'tknow what that would look like,
but all through school.
If there was ever a need to getup and do something at a school
assembly, I was happy to do it,like I was just always curious
about having to do stuff upfront.
Speaking wise and I'm not amassively extroverted person, I
wasn't like the life of theparty type human, but in that
role I was happy to step up andso I think I feel like I'm built
(38:39):
for it.
In many ways it's just a verynatural skill fit.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Aha, wonderful, wonderful.
I mean it's great to be in aposition to say that I'm happy
with who I am Like.
Yeah, you're totally happy inthis skin that I'm living in
right.
Yeah, that's so few people.
So few people attain thatposition in life.
(39:07):
Yeah yeah, yeah.
So you are very, very lucky andI congratulate you and I hope
it keeps that way for a longtime.
You're not ending, we are notending.
I'm just putting it in there.
Are you presently in anintimate relationship?
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Yes, yeah, I'm married.
My wife and I have been married, for I think it's going to be
18 years next year, so thatmakes us feel very old.
Yes, but yes, 18 years.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
Don't talk to me about old.
I'm old relative, isn't it?
I'm ancient.
So what does your wife do?
Speaker 2 (39:44):
She's an lecturer at a university.
She teaches drama, hedda Godji,so how to teach, or how to use
drama to teach, and also dramahistory, theater production.
So she teaches in the dramaticarts faculty and then also runs
a theater company of her own.
So they're putting onproductions, live theater
productions, every sort of threeor four months, so she's got a
(40:05):
pretty full plate as well.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
Yeah, do you have it?
Did you say you had twochildren?
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Just the one, yeah, one little seven year old.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
Seven year old.
Yeah, would you like him tofollow in your footsteps?
Speaker 2 (40:18):
Not necessarily.
I have no desire that he would.
He's not the same temperamentas me.
He's much more like my wife, soI would be surprised if he was
attracted to.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (40:30):
What is she like?
She's certainly moreintroverted than I am and for me
I'm a very linear, logical,sequential thinker which I feel
like for what I do is a realasset For writing books and
crafting content.
To deliver on stage it reallyhelps.
My wife is far more creative.
She's just much more takethings as they come.
(40:52):
She's still very structured andorganized to get things
happening.
She produces life theory.
You've got to be prettyorganized to do that.
But she's less linear than I,am far more creative and I think
our boy is the same.
So I'd be surprised if he wasattracted to the sort of work I
do.
But hey, you never know.
But it's interesting seeing him, even as a young child, being
able to see what I do and forhim to sort of get it like he
(41:15):
came to a conference recentlyand just sat in the audience and
he just sees me at home justbeing dad and then suddenly
seeing me in that role was justa bit of it was an interesting
moment for him and just theprivilege it is for him and I
think he's aware of theprivilege to an extent of just
the experiences he has becauseof that.
So today, like it's schoolholidays here.
So when we finish this chat,I'm taking him today to a
(41:36):
colleague of mine's workshop.
This is one of us straight isleading robotic engineers.
He's a 35-year-old guy, like aproper genius, designs robots
for people with disabilities,like designed a car for someone
who couldn't move arms or legsquadriplegic, but they can drive
it while you're moving theireyes and he's invented all this
technology.
Anyway, I said to our littleboy, I said do you want to go
(41:57):
meet the man that builds robots?
And he said I'd love that.
So we're going over today tomeet this guy.
So just, I think our little boyis so aware that just because
of what I get to do, he gets tomeet some really interesting
people.
So you know, you never knowwhat your kid will do.
But I think part of the job asa parent is just to expose him
to as many different people andideas and ways of thinking, and
hopefully something a bit likeme as an eight-year-old in a
(42:17):
conference convention centergrabs their fascination and that
becomes a seed of an idea.
So that's the hope.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
If you could have dinner with any three people,
dead or alive, who would youchoose?
Speaker 2 (42:34):
I think Winston Churchill would be fascinating.
Yeah, matt McGandy would beanother one.
I would love to just learn fromyou know what's the sort of
mindset you have that allows youto do what he did.
I think Steve Jobs would bereally interesting to speak with
as well.
I just think he'd be his takeon things, and even looking at
(42:55):
what Apple has done over thelast you know, the years since
he passed away, I often thinkwhat would Steve do, and so I
think those three would bepeople all very different people
obviously, but they'd be people.
I've read their biographies.
I find them interesting ashumans.
I'd love to see what they'relike one-on-one.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
I have just finished a wonderful book.
I think it's one of the bestbooks I've read in a long time.
It's called Checkmate in Berlin.
Have you heard of it?
I haven't.
No, it's an amazing book.
It deals with sort of the lastfew months of the Second World
War and then sort of whathappened in Berlin, with the
(43:35):
Russians and the Americans andthe Brits and the France coming
in and taking it over.
But the reason I mention it isbecause Churchill, after the war
, was the only leader of theWestern world who saw what
(43:55):
Russia was up to, and he's theone who coined the phrase the
iron curtain.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
Did he really?
I didn't know that.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
Yes, when he was out of power, when he was already
voted out.
But he was asked to speak inthe United States at some small
Midwestern university and hemade this incredible speech
where he said iron curtain isdescending from Warsaw to, I
don't know, bulgaria or whatever.
(44:28):
Yes, and everybody attacked himfor it.
Wow, kind of nonsense is this,you know.
And boy did he see the worldhow it really was, and everybody
else was just denying whatStalin was really up to, and
(44:50):
Churchill was the one who saw itcoming, and he was the one in
1939 who was, of course, seeingwhat Hitler was up to.
Yeah, right.
Speaker 2 (45:02):
So yes, I'm definitely for Churchill, yes,
I'm a great I wonder what he'dsay of the current state of play
globally at the moment, becauseI think the beauty of someone
like Churchill is he had thatability to sum up complex
situations something pithy,memorable, repeatable and like,
devastatingly accurate, Likesome of his phrases.
The terms of phrases got cutthrough and you couldn't ignore
(45:24):
them, and I wonder what he wouldmake of some of the things that
we dress up in so much languagetoday.
He'd just speak through that, Isuspect, in a way that would be
probably quite useful.
Speaker 1 (45:33):
Yes, I think so.
Well, where is Churchill now,when we need him, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
What would you like to beremembered for?
Speaker 2 (45:49):
That's a great question.
I think the thing that I enjoyhearing the most like if I ever
hear the feedback that I've beenkind to people.
I love that and because that'ssomething that I'm very mindful
of, particularly now that in theposition I'm in certainly in
the industry that I'm intypically I'm sort of whisked
(46:10):
into back rooms and green roomsit's easy to just float around
and not have to engage withpeople and not make people feel
seen and valued, and I tried tonot do that.
I could try to every person,whether it's a sound technician
or someone backstage just takinga moment, to be kind and
valuing them.
I try and remember to do thatconsistently because it's easy
(46:32):
to forget that, and so I thinkthat's the thing when I hear the
feedback, that's what peopleappreciate.
That to me, is like that's thebest feedback.
So I'd love to think that wasthe impact.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
Okay, we are running out of time, so one more
question.
Speaker 2 (46:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:53):
What does being human mean to you?
Speaker 2 (46:59):
Oh, that's a great question as well.
I think growing, I think beinghuman is about growing.
The moment you stop doing thatand you see that.
And it doesn't have to be anage-related thing.
You meet some people in their20s and they've decided they've
figured everything out about theworld and they're not open to
growing and changing, and Ithink what a sad thing.
That's the point of being here.
(47:21):
To listen and learn and grow andchange.
The moment you stop doing that.
I mean, it's that pithy oldsort of 1980s saying you're
either green and growing or ripeand rotting, and I think there
is some truth in that.
If you're not growing andchanging, what are you doing?
If you're not going forward,you're going backwards, and so
that's probably the core of whatit is to be human is to be
always open and learning newthings and things you hadn't
(47:43):
considered before.
And I guess that's probablypart of the heart behind this
book too is to help peopledevelop a posture where they're
able to do that again, To notfeel like things that are new
are threatening, but things thatare new and different can be an
opportunity, even if they'reuncomfortable or inconvenient
truths.
Actually, that's how we grow ashumans.
There's a joy, there's a lifein that.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
Yes, and curiosity, you know, yeah, absolutely Not
being afraid to ask questions,definitely, which you have done
all your life.
Well, michael, we are out oftown, out of town, out of time,
out of time, but we could talkfor many, many more hours.
(48:29):
It has been a tremendouspleasure.
I've been speaking to MichaelMcQueen and look for his latest
book that's coming out when it?
Speaker 2 (48:39):
should be out early December.
Speaker 1 (48:41):
So it'll be all in all the bookstores.
Speaker 2 (48:43):
There's a website.
Up a website too.
Speaker 1 (48:45):
That's a great gift for Christmas, right.
Speaker 2 (48:49):
That's it, and thank you for writing an endorsement.
That was so kind of you to dothat.
I really appreciate it.
It was a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (48:55):
So the book is called Mindstruck Mastering the Art of
Changing, and my guest has beenMichael McQueen.
So let's stay in touch, michael.
I'd love that.
Thank you so much for makingthe time.
Take care Until next time.
Bye-bye, look forward to it.
Cheers, bye-bye, cheers.
Good morning in Australia, good evening in
Canada.
This is Pushing Boundaries, apodcast about pioneering
research, breakthroughdiscoveries and unconventional
ideas.
I'm your host, dr Thomas RBirney.
My guest today is MichaelMcQueen, a Sydney-based social
(00:24):
researcher, professional speakerand bestselling author of eight
books.
Is it eight or is it more?
Speaker 2 (00:32):
This is that one.
The new one clicks over 10.
So, yeah, it's like that's sortof rack up.
Yes.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Okay, 10.
I'm going to correct that of 10books, okay.
And with clients, he has hadsome incredible clients,
including KPMG, pepsi Cola andCisco.
He has helped some of theworld's most successful brands
(01:00):
navigate disruption and maintainmomentum.
In addition to featuringregularly as a commentator on TV
and radio, michael is afamiliar face on the
international conference circuit, having shared the stage with
the likes of Bill Gates, dr JohnMaxwell and Apple co-founder
(01:20):
Steve Wozniak.
I bet you have some interestingstories about that.
Indeed, michael has spoken toover 500,000 people across five
continents since 2004.
Having been formerly namedAustralia's keynote speaker of
the year, michael has beeninducted into the Professional
(01:42):
Speakers Hall of Fame.
Welcome, michael.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
Thank you so much and thank you for making the time.
Lovely to be able to have achat on air We've been back in
fourth via email but lovely toput a proper face to the name
and the voices.
Well, thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Your most recent book , mindstruck Mastering the Art
of Changing Minds, serves up amultitude of facts and insights
about how to help yourself tobecome more open-minded, but
also about how to influenceother people.
Now, am I getting that mixed upabout the open-minded about
(02:17):
another book, or is that?
No, that's exactly it.
Okay, yeah, all right, so whydon't we start there?
So perhaps you could talk alittle bit about what set you on
writing this book and give us anutshell idea of what it's
(02:40):
about.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Yeah.
So the book's all aboutessentially the psychology of
stubbornness, and that's atwo-way deal.
That's why are we stubborn Now?
Why do we get locked in certainways of thinking that aren't
serving us well?
But also, why do others getlocked into certain ways of
thinking that are notconstructive or helpful?
And I guess the question thatdrives the book in many ways is
why don't people change, evenwhen they want to and they know
(03:04):
they should?
And then how do you try and, inan ethical way, with integrity
and with their best interest inmind, help other people change
their perspective and changetheir minds?
So the notion is quite, I guess, calling a new word, Mindstuck,
this idea that we get Mindstuckas human beings.
Then how do you get out of thatstate?
Speaker 1 (03:23):
Mm-hmm, okay, so I think what you try to do is
persuasion without coercion.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
That's the goal, because there are so many books
and I mean you ought to comeacross so many of them over the
years as well and I understandthat they want to be intensely
practical and useful.
But a lot of those books that Ican think of a number right now
that actually, if you reallytake the tips and the principles
in them to the extreme, theyare tools of manipulation or
coercion.
Yes, even some of the NLP,neuro Linguistic Programming
(03:55):
stuff.
It's just been a bituncomfortable to me.
It always feels a little bitunderhanded.
You're trying to get someone todo things in a way that's
tricky or conniving, even ifit's not intended to be that.
So I wanted to write a bookthat was quite different.
So the purpose of this book ishow do you arrive at points of
truth together with others?
I think, if that's one thingthat we've lost the ability to
(04:17):
do in the last few years andwe've, of course, lived through
the last five or six years thathave been intensely tribal,
where people have looked at theworld through the lens of
identity.
Often, rather than asking thequestion of what is true, we'll
ask questions of what are?
People like me think aboutsomething like this, people from
my tribe.
And so, rather than actuallyevaluating or considering ideas,
we often run straight to thatsense of you know you're either
(04:39):
with me or for me and anyonethat I know whose side of an
issue you're on.
Then I'll listen to what you'vegot to say.
And so how do we arrive atthose points again where we can
listen to each other and learnfrom each other?
And, ideally, if you're wantingto persuade someone else in
your world and it can be infamily context or at work how to
do that successfully butwithout being coercive or
manipulative, and there is afine art to doing that well.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
So how do you do it?
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Give us a few examples the first thing is, if
you're looking at, say,stubbornness within ourselves,
and it is ideally a book thatlooks at both.
The first thing I'd encourageanyone to do and I actually had
this very experience yesterdaywhere I was like I need to.
You know, we've got toconsistently learn from our own
stuff, you know, like make surewe're applying what we're
researching and writing toourselves.
And I think the first thingwould be reflect on your
(05:27):
reactions.
And when you notice yourselfhave a reaction to an idea or a
perspective that is not open,and you know what that feels
like.
We all know what that feelslike when the hackles go up on
the back of your neck and you gointo flight mode.
You want to argue or debate.
Now Andy Stanley, who's aleadership author based in the
States, puts it really well.
He says actions speak louderthan words, but reactions speak
(05:50):
louder than both.
I think there's such truth inthat, like when you notice
yourself having one of thosestrong reactions, a
disproportionately strongreaction, big, a little bit
beneath that.
What's what's actually going onhere?
And a lot of the research Ifound interesting in the book
was understanding how our brainsare, our minds, and the
difference between those two.
I mean I'd love to unpack withyou for an hour because I found
(06:12):
your book in that regardfascinating.
But if we just look at thisidea of cognition alone for the
moment, like what happens in ourbrains I'm Drew Weston at Emory
University did some reallyinteresting research a few years
ago where he looked at responsetimes or processing times,
using brain scans, of wherepeople were exposed to different
ideas or bits of information.
So what he found, which wasinteresting, is that if the
(06:32):
information someone was exposedto, confronted or challenged a
deeply held belief, it wasattached to their identity, be
it religious or political oreven just ideological.
In the workplace, theirreaction times were fractional,
like almost instant reactions,whereas if you promote, if you
provided them with content thatwas related to something that
they had no great attachment tomaybe a new way of understanding
(06:54):
sunscreens or the manufacturingprocess of yogurt their
response times are forming anopinion about that were much
slower.
And what became very clear isthat we are actually curious
when it comes to newinformational ideas that don't
threaten us, but the momentthere's a threat involved to our
beliefs, it's like the reactiontimes and what became clear is
we don't even consider them, wejust instantly go to a default
(07:15):
of react.
So I think that's the firstthing for all of us is when we
notice that in ourselves or withothers, to notice what's
actually happening behind thescenes and also in that moment
of asking okay, who's your brainrooting for right now?
I mean, in Australia we use theterm barracking, which, if your
team's on the sports field,you're rooting for your team,
you're barracking for your team.
Same sort of concepts, and Ithink we we see that happen when
(07:36):
it comes to ideas, even when wethink we are super open minded.
There's one side of a debatethat deep down and you feel you
know when it's happening.
When someone in that debatefrom from your side, you don't
even know you've got a side yet.
Or when your side scores apoint, he makes a point that
could win the argument you'relike yes, you know you and
you'll accept it without anyevidence because it confirms
what you believe to be true.
(07:56):
Whereas when, of course, theopposing team something you
don't like scores a point ormakes a good case, you instantly
go into, are you trying to pickholes in it?
And we so naturally do this.
So a lot of, a lot of the booklooks at why that happens, why
we arrive at points of certaintyand judgment.
What happens in our brains nowmight do that, but also then,
how do you shift people out ofthat?
Speaker 1 (08:16):
So all of that sounds really good.
The problem, as I see it, theproblem with books like yours
and mine is that the people whopicked them up are already
halfway there.
Yes, yeah, Okay, and you know,your book is not going to be
(08:40):
picked up by one of the proudboys in the United States, right
?
People who are really what youcall stubborn, which I think is
very tactful and diplomatic, butessentially people with closed
minds are not going to pick upyour book and read about it.
(09:04):
And so how do you talk topeople who have already chosen
sides and believe in all theconspiracy theories?
For example, how do you getthem.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
That's probably.
Conspiracy belief is one of themost difficult, because the
influence, of course, ofalgorithms means that by the
time you've gone down thatrabbit hole and fully subscribed
to a conspiracy belief, you'venot just attached a new identity
yourself for someone whobelieves that thing, but you've
attached an entire new community, and your community of fellow
(09:42):
believers is defined by the factthat you're separate from the
majority and you've got theother keepers of knowledge that
the mainstream don't have, andso that, of course, is very
difficult to break, becausechanging someone's mind when
they've gone fully down thatrabbit hole of conspiracy belief
means not just walking awayfrom a belief but walking away
from their community, but alsowalking away from their sense of
security that comes from, Iknow, something that everyone
else is privy to, knowledge thateveryone else doesn't have.
(10:04):
So conspiracy belief is reallychallenging.
So Josh Compton has done somegood work around how to pre,
bunk or inoculate people againstconspiracy belief, and he's
probably so.
Him and a guy named SandraVanderlinden have done probably
the best work in this regard,and they say the best way to
prevent people from going downthe rabbit hole is to
(10:25):
essentially expose into adiluted form of misinformation,
give them the tools to processit and understand it and,
essentially, fight it.
Much the way our bodies respondwhen we have a vaccine or an
inoculation and therefore, whenthey're exposed to the real
version, they know what to do.
And so if you can get to peoplewhen they're in the early
stages of conspiracy belief, forinstance, that's helpful when
(10:46):
they've gone right down therabbit hole.
The only thing I've found usefulso far in terms of looking at
the research of what works andwhat doesn't, is a thing called
paradoxical thinking, whichseems so strange, but it's a
model, and I can't even rememberwhere it came from now, which
university and which researcherdid it, but the idea was you
expose someone to a more extremeversion of the belief they hold
and in doing so, createcontrast.
(11:08):
So, for instance, right nowwe've got a referendum happening
in Australia around recognizingour First Nations people in the
constitution, and it has gottenso messy.
It's gotten right versus left,conservative versus progressive,
what should have been, and Ihonestly, when it was launched
as a referendum, I thought thiswill be a unanimous thing.
It seemed like a really goodidea and it's gotten so tense.
(11:30):
So I'm speaking to people whoare like if we give the
indigenous people a voice toparliament, which is what the
referendum is about.
They'll take back our land, ourhomes, we'll have to fill in
our swimming pools and there'sno basis for any of that.
But this is what people who'vegone down that extreme level
think.
So when you've got someone,let's say who's saying I don't
want to vote for this in thereferendum because I don't like
(11:52):
the idea of giving people avoice if we don't have clear
checks and balances in place.
If you can expose them to amore extreme version, I go.
Yes, I know I get it.
I get the concern.
There are even people who havethis fear that and then give the
expose them to a more extremeversion of their belief.
Their first reaction is like oh, I would never say that, I'd
never go that far.
And even by creating thecontrast between a more extreme
(12:14):
version of what they believe,you break it up.
You're breaking the soil upjust enough for them to think is
it possible?
My view is a bit the same.
Not based on anything that'sreasonable or logical.
It's not going to win theargument, but at least it tilts
the soil and allows you to havea conversation.
The tricky thing in that andit's, of course in any
persuasion technique is you'vegot to allow them to save face.
(12:35):
The moment people feel eventhat hint that they're cornered
or shamed, I'll shut down.
And I think one of the mosthelpful things I've kept in
front of mind as I've writtenthe book is this notion that
everyone, everything that anyonethinks, makes perfect sense to
them, like even the mostludicrous thing they think.
How could you possibly thinkthat in their mind?
(12:56):
They've got a narrative whichmeans it makes sense, and so
I've got to start with and gookay, but make sense to them.
Shaming or trying to logicfullythem into changing their view
is the opposite of what's goingto work.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
That's good, that's smart.
Yeah, you're absolutely right.
You're absolutely right.
So everybody knows, I guess, bynow, Dale Carnegie's how to
Make Friends and InfluencePeople in 1936.
So how does your book differfrom that?
Speaker 2 (13:29):
I guess it's a good point because in many ways, when
I started off writing this book, someone said what's your
vision for this book?
And I thought I guess it'squite grandiose really when I
think about it.
But I said I'd love to writethe how to Make Friends and
Influence People of the 21stcentury.
I'd love to write a book thatis really practical and useful
across a huge cross-section, andthat was the.
I mean, the genius of that bookis that it was really good for
(13:50):
people who were in work contextsor family contexts and in so
many different ways you coulduse it.
And I wanted to write a bookthat was like that, because in
the persuasion space there's alot that's written with
advertisers in mind or salespeople in mind or maybe leaders
in mind.
But I wanted to write somethingthat, if you're a mum of a 16
year old and you just you'retrying to get your 16 year old
to get off the screen or engagein homework or make better
(14:12):
choices, it would be useful foryou, as it would be in that.
So I really wanted to write abook that was similar.
In that sense, I think the bigdifference between what I've
produced with mine stuck and sayhow to Influence People is Dale
Carnegie was right about somuch, but no one knew why there
were.
There was so little science atthe time as to why people, why
the things he suggested worked,and so the beauty is, I wanted
(14:35):
to write a book that didn't justlook at how to change people's
minds and encourage people tobecome more open minded, but
look at why the stuff that worksactually works.
What's what's happening in ourbrains and, more broadly, that
means these things are effectivebecause it's stuff that we just
didn't know in 1936.
So I wanted to bring togetherreally practical and also
timeless principles, but pairthem up with really recent
(14:56):
research and some of theresearch I've come across from
people like you, from peoplelike your book.
To me it put language around somuch that I'd been thinking and
trying to pin down and you know, when you read a book you're
like yes this is exactly whatI've been trying to define or
describe, so there's a few bookslike that that were just very
helpful.
So I wanted to bring all of thatstuff together and make it very
(15:16):
accessible to again, a mum witha 16 year old right through the
leader of a corporate team.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Okay, I can understand.
That Makes a lot of sense.
What do large companies likePepsi or KPMG?
How do they benefit from youradvice?
What do you tell them?
What are they asking?
Speaker 2 (15:37):
Yeah, the big thing, the question this is a big part
of why I wrote the book is thatwhen I'm working with these
sorts of clients and it can bethe clients that listeners would
know, but a lot of them, a lotof my clients are not known.
They're like a governmentdepartment responsible for
policy development, for instance, and they're facing the same
sorts of challenges that aFortune 500 brand is facing, but
(15:57):
they're just not as highprofile.
And I think for any leaderright now, the challenge is how
do you change your people in away that lasts?
Because you can try andencourage change through
incentivizing or through threatsof punishment, like do this or
else, and that change will onlylast as long as either the
(16:17):
incentives are there or thethreat of punishment exists.
The moment those thingsdisappear, people just go back
to the way they were doing it,and so a lot of my work over the
years is the frustration I'veseen is I'll work with, let's
say, a leadership team aroundnow.
What's coming in the next threeto five years from a disruption
and trends perspective?
What do you need to be doing togetting ready for it?
And these leaders will go.
Okay, I get it.
I can see now what we need tobe doing.
(16:37):
How do I get my team on board?
Or I'm speaking to someone okay, I get this, but I've got to
influence up.
I've got to get my executiveteam to be open to this as an
idea.
So what I've wanted to do withthis book is essentially answer
that question of okay, it's onething to arm clients with the
skills for knowing how to adaptand change and stay relevant,
which I've been doing for twodecades basically now but I
(16:59):
wanted to also give them thetools to bring others along for
the journey willingly, asopposed to you must, because I'm
the boss and I said you've gotto.
And so that's where I wanted toreally address that gap,
because that's the question Iwould get literally day after
day after day from clients is Iget what needs to happen, but I
can't seem to get my team tocome on the journey and do so
willingly.
They're stuck, they're oftenfixed in very stubborn views.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
So a couple of years ago, speaking of that, you
released a digital book calledthe new now, which examined the
10 trends that you thought willdominate a post COVID world and
how leaders and organizationscan gear up to them.
Can you tell me a few of those10 trends?
(17:45):
What do you see happening?
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Well, I think yeah, I mean that book was really.
Essentially it built on a bookthat came out pre COVID.
Looking at the disruptions thatwe're going to shape the next
few years.
What we saw in the COVID yearsis we saw and the best way I had
to describe was it's like wesaw the future arrive ahead of
schedule and it did in so manyways, things that we thought
were five or 10 years away astrends happened in 18 months
(18:07):
because of the pandemic.
So that book was essentially anupdate in many ways and stuff
that I've been tracking for acouple of years, but the things
that were happening now in realtime.
So, obviously, the shift towarde-commerce rapidly accelerated
when lockdowns meant that peoplehad to use online services or
click and collect in ways theyhadn't used before.
So we've seen the grocerymarket change rapidly over the
(18:28):
last few years.
Look what's happening in theautomotive space with, say,
self-driving car technology.
Again, the pandemic meant thatregulators actually gave the
green light for some of thosetests to be fast tracked because
they realized the risk was youhad all these human drivers
driving around people andspreading COVID, and so we saw
states like Arizona andCalifornia give the green light
for driverless car technology tobecome a reality, honestly, six
(18:50):
or seven years ahead of when wethought it would be.
And so we've seen so many ofthose sorts of things that have
come to the fore in ways that wejust we thought were a long way
off but have happened morequickly.
And so I guess the challengefor many of my clients now is
they're realizing the world ischanging fast and now they've
got to figure out how to getready for it and gear up quickly
without losing that sense ofwho they are.
And one of the big things we'veseen, of course, throughout the
(19:12):
pandemic and it's lingering totoday, is the shift towards
remote and hybrid work, which isso difficult.
Because how do you, if you're aleader, how do you build a team
and build a team culture wherepeople aren't necessarily around
each other all the time?
How do you influence or persuadepeople who you don't know, who
you haven't got that sense ofsocial credit with because
you've not worked with them andknow their families and know
(19:32):
their backstory and what sportsthey're interested in?
And so I think that's thetricky thing I'm finding now is
we've seen that remote work andhybrid work thing become the
default in many of my clientorganizations, and how do you
lead that sort of a team andbuild culture?
That's a very tricky question,because culture is caught, not
taught.
You pick up culture by beingaround other people in a team in
a remote or hybrid environment.
(19:54):
It's difficult, you can do it,but it's difficult to build that
sort of culture.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
So how would you do it?
What sort of advice do youproffer?
Speaker 2 (20:06):
How do you?
Yeah, for leaders who aretinkering with this, who are
realizing they've got thesedispersed teams, first thing is
you've got to have intensivetimes.
When you bring people together,there is literally no
substitute for being physicallyin the same location.
That doesn't mean you have todo what's a sales force or
Twitter or Meta or any of theseother companies have done in the
last three or four months,which is like you've got to come
back in three days a week,mandatory.
(20:27):
And you notice, of course, themoment that happens, everyone
pushes back.
You can't tell me.
I mean, in itself isfascinating.
Imagine if we'd said that backin 2019, that everyone was going
to push back at you, daring toask them to come back to the
office three days a week.
Imagine that.
So, rather than having that,maybe it's, and you see a few
companies that'll have what theycall core weeks in the year.
(20:48):
So there might be two-weekblocks where you want everyone
in the office five days a week,and that only happens maybe once
every three months, and thebeauty is, in those times you
build the relationships, youbuild those strong connections,
or you have team off-site eventsonce a quarter.
So, instead of having aconference where you gather the
team together for one day at theHilton Ballroom in a windowless
(21:08):
space where you're all sittinglistening to five speakers,
having an off-site where youbuild those relationships.
The other thing I'm findingreally helpful for clients is,
if you're having new staffkicking off, for the first two
or three weeks have them in theoffice full-time so they get
that feel for who's who and howthings work.
And then they can over time, bydegrees, start working remotely
more.
But you've got to get them,you've got to have them feel
(21:29):
connected out of the gate.
If they don't haverelationships, they don't feel
connected, if far less engaged,far less connected to purpose,
the organization's purpose, andthey're also far less likely to
stick around.
Loyalty is a function ofrelationships in so many
instances, particularly withyounger generations, so having
that sense of strong connectionand social connection at work is
really important.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Yeah, that makes sense.
So I think you mentioned thefact that for the last 20 years
you have been working in thisarea.
Is that correct?
Yeah, that's correct.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
So how did you get into it to begin with?
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Yeah, so well.
Firstly, I was young, I was 22when I started doing this work,
and so obviously I was notworking with Fortune 500
companies and doing strategydays at the age of 22.
Where I started was looking atthe generation gap from the
perspective of one of the youngpunks, one of the young people
that everyone was talking about,which was that millennial
cohort Right.
So back in 2004, when I starteddoing the work I was doing in
(22:25):
late 2003, it was like everyonewas talking about the baby
boomers versus Gen X versus themillennials.
Why were we different?
How much of the differenceswere substantive as opposed to a
function of life stage?
And then how do you bridgethose gaps?
And so I did a body of research, starting back in 2003, 2004,
interviewing and working with80,000 young people right around
(22:47):
the world, looking at what'smaking them tick, what are their
expectations around theworkplace, and then I sort of
condensed all that together intoa book, looking at how
organizations and leaders couldengage their emerging workforce.
So that's where I started,initially all around
generational change, and how doyou sort of gear up for that?
And then the scope broadened tolook at not just generational
change but social change,technological change and then
(23:08):
the trends all associated withthose things.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
So was that like part of your PhD thesis, or what?
Speaker 2 (23:15):
It wasn't.
So I did an undergraduatedegree straight after school
just in commerce, and then wentfrom that and all of the
research I've done since hasbeen out of personal interest or
stuff that I think will beuseful for clients.
So that research project I meanit was a very thorough piece of
work I probably should havedone as part of a PhD.
It would have been sensible tokill two birds with one stone,
(23:37):
but I just did it out ofinterest and based on what I was
seeing as the trends as theyformed in young people, but also
what clients were asking for,what were the pain points for
organizations and then trying toplug those or at least solve
them.
So that's typically been thefocus for me.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
So how did you finance that?
Like, how could you interview80,000 people on your own?
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Good question.
So well, firstly, bootstrappingand being young and not having
a mortgage in kids that helps.
So, it was.
So initially what I did is Iput together a program of
essentially seminars for year,what we call Year 10 students,
so in Australia, year 10 to age16.
So the last two or three yearsof high school.
And so we'd run these programs,initially just in Sydney, where
(24:20):
it was home for me, and thennationally and then overseas as
well, and they were all aroundthe school to work transition.
So schools would pay me and Ihad a team of other speakers
that grew over time to go in andrun these programs, and at the
end of the programs we do thesesurveys with students, and so it
was a really sort of symbioticrelationship where we were able
to add value at schools andcolleges and then also get us,
(24:42):
you know, put our finger on thepulse of what's happening in all
these different communities.
What students were expecting andthinking and so that was how it
was funded was essentially waspart of what we were doing in
schools, and it was slow going.
I mean, schools are great onceyou're in, but they're very
they're very heavily networked.
So it's hard to get known inthe schools world Once you're
known, they all talk, and so itwas a very slow burn to get
(25:04):
started.
So anyone who's listening,who's in that like startup zone
and it's like trying to makeends meet month after month, I
get it.
That was the first.
You know it's six or 12 monthsand we were just first early
married, like it was.
It was that time where it'slike, well, is any time to do it
?
That is a good time to do it,but it's also a tricky time.
So it was very much thatbootstrapping startup stage.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
So did you yourself come up with the idea of
interviewing these students tofind out how they were thinking?
Was that your own idea or didsomebody?
It was.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
Yeah, so the process to get into this was interesting
.
So I had this idea of doingsome research around
generational change and maybedoing some writing, and I'd
always been interested in thespeaking writing world, even as
a young person I was.
I love listening to greatcommunicators.
I remember going to a couple ofconferences for my parents'
work because the babysitter fellthrough and just sitting in
(25:57):
these events listening to peoplepresent and thinking that's,
I'd love to do that, that'd beawesome.
So it was always on the radarand so when I was looking at how
, what, what, what could I do tosort of be of value in that
space and do something that willbe fresh and new and relevant?
The generational thingsobviously was a starting point
because I was young.
So I'm like I can't be anexpert in March at age 22, but I
(26:19):
can be an expert in being youngbecause I am.
And so I'd written the firstdraft of a book basically
looking at generationaldifferences.
What it lacked was the on theground stuff.
The on the ground, you know,speaking to the young people
themselves and you sense ofwhat's happening, having primary
research data, and so I'd givenit to my dad to read.
So my dad had been a guidancecounsellor in a high school for
(26:39):
20 something years and he saidthere is such a need for this.
You could actually run theseprograms in schools and then
bulk onto that some research ofthe young people as you're doing
it.
So he'd had the idea, and so itwas one of those sort of
moments where I could have goneother way.
So he read this manuscript, hadthat idea.
Six days later, no notice,passed away, heart attack out of
(27:00):
nowhere, fit and healthy, 51years of age.
But two days before he'd passedaway, he sent one email to a
woman who is the head of theCareers Guidance Association of
the state we live in and justsaid I just want to introduce my
son to you.
He's written some stuff thatcould be useful in schools.
So after the funeral was doneand all the dust has started to
settle, I remember like open myemail, got back to work.
(27:22):
In the email was there from himintroducing me to Lynn Camp was
her name, and so I thought I mayas well give it a shot, almost
to honor him.
I'm like he's gone to thetrouble to set this up.
It's almost in and one, sincethe last thing he's left is his
email intro and so I emailed her.
She was kind enough because Ithink she was feeling sorry for
me to have a meeting and shehelped me get started and like
that's, that's where it allbegan.
(27:42):
So it's it's a very specialthing, because it was such a
thin thread that could have goneeither way.
But yeah, so much of that wasfrom that pivotal experience.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
So what was it that you were doing that your father
thought would be helpful toother people?
What was it that you were doing?
Speaker 2 (28:00):
Well, he was.
So the book that I'd initiallywritten was all about how baby
boomers and Gen X is differentfrom millennials, and it looked
at the historical context.
So what are the things thathappened in the formative stages
of each of those generations?
That was, you know?
That meant they had a certainparadigm or worldview, and how
did that apply to the way thatthey were working?
So he said the tricky thingwe're seeing is we're sending
(28:21):
students out into the workforceafter school and they might have
the knowledge that they needfrom school, but if I don't know
how to for want of a betterterm play the game, understand
how their bosses are thinkingand how to work with others who
are from a different generation,that's where.
That's where they're fallingdown.
And he said there's governmentfunding to help with this sort
of stuff, to help students makethat transition from school to
(28:42):
work.
He said this material fits intothat funding model beautifully.
It's exactly what schools arebeing asked to provide to
students.
No one much is doing it.
Knock yourself out, give it ago.
And so that was what I thinkyou saw was valuable.
Was that the thing thatstudents weren't getting at
school at the time?
Speaker 1 (28:59):
And what did you find ?
What were they not getting?
Speaker 2 (29:03):
I think the big thing and it's funny because you sort
of hear the trope that youngpeople are all and then you fill
in the blanks disrespectful,lacking work ethic, with the
rest One of the things that waspretty clear was there was a
sense of ambition and enthusiasmwith Generation Y or the
millennials, that if it didn'tpresent well, if it didn't
present with humility, cameacross as entitlement and
(29:26):
presumption, and so a lot of itwas saying when you go into the
workplace, you need to recognizethat your natural zeal for
wanting to take on new roles andideally, be a leader soon, and
that ambition can be perceivedas being precocious or entitled
If you don't also go in with aposture of openness, of like, I
want to be mentored, I'm keen tolearn, and so I try to
(29:47):
understand and looking at whatwe're seeing with Generation Y
in terms of what do they expectfrom a pay packet perspective,
what do they expect?
And so how quickly they've beenleadership, and so you think,
wow, that's so naive.
But it was a function of ageneration who grew up in the
era of self-esteem, where theywere told they could be anything
they wanted to be, do anythingthey wanted to do, and so you
wanted to make sure that theywent into the workplace, not
(30:07):
that in a way that that wouldget squashed, but also they went
into the workplace with arealistic expectation and an
ability to go in and learn andnot be, not essentially get a
one's hackles up straight out ofthe gate by being a young,
precocious, wanting to run theshow tomorrow, type thing.
That's what we saw is just someof those mismatches and
expectations that were afunction of the era that Gen Y
or that millennial group hadbeen raised in.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
So that sounds fantastic.
And how did you move from thatto your next project, which was
more about like stubbornness andhow to persuade people that
sort of stuff?
How did you move?
Speaker 2 (30:43):
So each of the books has basically been, I guess, the
next step.
You know I'm often asked aquestion of how do you come up
with ideas for what you writeabout?
And typically I just listen,like if you listen well enough,
your clients will tell you whatthey need.
Your clients will tell youwhat's frustrating them and
being difficult for them intheir roles.
So initially I spent a wholelot of years doing this
generational stuff.
So I wrote three books aroundthat whole bridge in the
(31:05):
generation gap discussion, andthen I realized that this is
only part of the equation.
There's a lot more going on.
If you just sort of scan out oneor two steps from the
generational piece, the broadercontext is societal attitudes
are changing and technology ismoving fast and consumer
expectations are changing.
There's a whole other that'shappening around this and in
some ways the flywheel has beenkicked off by generational
(31:27):
change.
Now a lot of these things arehappening because younger
generations are coming throughusing new technologies, having
different expectations, and sogradually that becomes the norm.
And so, looking at what washappening more broadly, so the
next three or four books lookedat this question of where's the
world heading, how do you getready for change.
How do businesses that stay atthe cutting edge over a long
period of time do that?
(31:47):
So how do you not become theKodak?
The sea is the blackberries ofthe world.
You know what do thosebusinesses do wrong?
How do they not pick what wascoming or identify the trends
before it wiped them out?
And then, having done a lot ofthat work over the last probably
the last 12 years, has beenmainly focused in that space.
Again, the question wasconsistently I get it, I know
(32:09):
what's coming now, I know whatwe need to do, but I can't get
my team on the journey.
So that's where the persuasionpsychology of stubbornness
material came from.
I was just seeing thatconsistently coming up with
clients.
Speaker 1 (32:20):
Was there?
Was there any particular personor client that kind of
triggered this interest instubbornness?
Speaker 2 (32:30):
That's a great question, not a particular
client, but I can think of a fewconversations.
I remember one particularly wasat the Hilton Hotel in Sydney,
downtown Sydney.
There was a woman there who wasrunning a fairly large team for
one of the banks and she youknow, when you speak to someone
and they're not just frustrated,they are frustrated their whole
body.
She was so exasperated.
She said I've been trying toget my team to embrace I can't
(32:54):
even remember what the newtechnology platform was, was
something new that they neededto do.
And she said, if we don't do itin the next six months, like we
are dead in the water.
But she said they just won't.
And I've given them all thereasons, all the logic, I've
done PowerPoint presentationsand videos and but they just not
going along for the journey.
And I remember that and that wasprobably I don't already had
the idea to write this book atthat stage, but that was one of
(33:15):
those moments.
I'm like this is a felt need.
It's not just wouldn't it benice if we could give some
people some tips and tools?
It's like this is stuff that'sactually keeping people awake at
night and making their livesvery difficult, and that sense
of exasperation.
I do remember that being a verypivotal moment.
Early on that I thought Ireally I definitely need to
write this book next, because Iwas seeing those same sorts of
(33:35):
things come up time again and Ithink to just realizing a lot of
what we've been told for somany years.
It's sort of not true.
You know this notion thateveryone's inherently afraid of
change.
That's a natural human thing tobe afraid of change.
And yet some of the moreinteresting research I came
across in writing the book wasthat it's actually that's not
true.
We're not afraid of change.
What we're afraid of is lossand so if you underpin.
(33:57):
What is it that?
What's the fear of?
What's the loss associated withchange?
Rather than trying to dress thechange up or upsell the change,
you've got to lessen the loss,try and make the loss feel
manageable or not threatening,or at least the choice of the
person that's engaging in it.
And so things like the loss ofthe loss of certainty, the loss
of power, the loss of dignity,typically when people are
(34:18):
digging their heels in, it'sthat fear of losing one of those
things that stop in themchanging.
And so, rather than trying topush harder or give more
evidence or logic, understandwhat the law says and address
that.
And that's so often that that'senough in and of itself to
shift the game.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
I think that's incredibly true.
I think that is so true, yeah,that that really resonates with
me.
You mentioned before that wasit one day when your parents
couldn't get a, couldn't get ababy sitter they took you.
Is that sort of the most vividmemory of your childhood, or are
(34:57):
there some other ones that kindof stand out that you think
sort of made a difference interms of your career choice?
Speaker 2 (35:06):
That's a great question, I think.
Certainly I remember that thatday that conference was very,
very vivid.
I remember it was always eight.
I remember I was eight, maybenine, but I think I was eight
years of age.
And this conference is, there'sa woman speaking from the
States who was actually speakingand it was speaking about
personality styles and she justcaptured this audience and it
(35:27):
was just it was.
It was not high grow academic,it was just very accessible but
very well researched.
She was funny and engaging.
And yeah, I remember justthinking.
I remember saying to mum anddad as we were leaving that day,
that's what I want to do.
And so they of course thepolite parental response yeah,
that's nice, yeah, cool.
You know, you just assume it'llbe nice, it'll be in the same
category as being a fireman oran astronaut, but it's stuck
(35:48):
like it really did and it wassort of just something that
that's funny when I speak topeople.
In fact, we're having a NewYear's Eve party this year and I
was catching up with somefriends yesterday.
We're talking about the themefor this news new year's Eve
party and the theme is going tobe come with what you'd like to
be when you grow up and they alllaughed and said you're the
boring one, because you'll justcome as what you are.
Because, like it is so truethat I just I feel like this is
(36:09):
all I've ever wanted to do and Ilove it, and I realize what a
privilege that is and how rareit is, yes, yes, to be doing
what you love and to know that,like a couple of close
colleagues, their biggestfrustration is they just they're
like turning 40.
And they still have no ideawhat they want to do when they
grow up.
I can I just the inner angstthat causes and I feel so deeply
for them because I'm like Idon't know how to, how do you
(36:30):
help someone figure that out?
That's got to be a journey.
They go on to a large extent ontheir own, but I just I can't
relate in the sense that I'veknown since I was really young
exactly what I wanted to do andI've had like the crazy
privilege of being able to do itand I've worked really hard.
But also there's favor, there'sluck, there's good timing.
I mean I would never assumeit's just all, of course, my
cleverness that I've fallen intothis.
(36:50):
So, yeah, I just I love what Iget to do, and it really was
probably from that age, that ageeight, that it was on the radar
for me.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
What, what was it about that woman and her
speaking that sort of made animpression on you.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
It's a great question because I can't remember
anything she said.
I mean obviously so long ago.
I remember she was wearing abright blue dress.
Isn't it funny the thingsvisually that stick with you.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
Yes yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (37:16):
The sparkly sort of dress.
I think Her name was FlorenceLittower, that's her name.
She's been she passed away, Ibelieve, only quite recently,
but she'd been a speaker fordecades and she was just a
masterful communicator.
You know, that whole thatability to hold a whole room in
the palm of your hands withouthigh energy, without any rara,
(37:38):
just by being having a magnetism, and there's something about
that that has just, it's alwaysbeen my goal is to have that
ability to influence people froma platform without being larger
than life, because I'm not likeI'll be on the stage in front
of 20,000 people and I'm likeit's just like this, like I'm
just having a conversation, andthere's something about that
(37:58):
that I just find from, at leastfor me and for my tone works the
moment I try and speak it up,and it's bigger than it is Like
there's insincerity, that justmeans the audience doesn't
connect.
And so I remember she did thatbeautifully.
There was just, it was justvery real, very compelling, very
funny, and that made a hugeimpact.
And so that was certainly theway I wanted to do that sort of
thing, if and when.
(38:18):
So like at age eight I didn'tknow what that would look like,
but all through school.
If there was ever a need to getup and do something at a school
assembly, I was happy to do it,like I was just always curious
about having to do stuff upfront.
Speaking wise and I'm not amassively extroverted person, I
wasn't like the life of theparty type human, but in that
role I was happy to step up andso I think I feel like I'm built
(38:39):
for it.
In many ways it's just a verynatural skill fit.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Aha, wonderful, wonderful.
I mean it's great to be in aposition to say that I'm happy
with who I am Like.
Yeah, you're totally happy inthis skin that I'm living in
right.
Yeah, that's so few people.
So few people attain thatposition in life.
(39:07):
Yeah yeah, yeah.
So you are very, very lucky andI congratulate you and I hope
it keeps that way for a longtime.
You're not ending, we are notending.
I'm just putting it in there.
Are you presently in anintimate relationship?
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Yes, yeah, I'm married.
My wife and I have been married, for I think it's going to be
18 years next year, so thatmakes us feel very old.
Yes, but yes, 18 years.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
Don't talk to me about old.
I'm old relative, isn't it?
I'm ancient.
So what does your wife do?
Speaker 2 (39:44):
She's an lecturer at a university.
She teaches drama, hedda Godji,so how to teach, or how to use
drama to teach, and also dramahistory, theater production.
So she teaches in the dramaticarts faculty and then also runs
a theater company of her own.
So they're putting onproductions, live theater
productions, every sort of threeor four months, so she's got a
(40:05):
pretty full plate as well.
Speaker 1 (40:06):
Yeah, do you have it?
Did you say you had twochildren?
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Just the one, yeah, one little seven year old.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
Seven year old.
Yeah, would you like him tofollow in your footsteps?
Speaker 2 (40:18):
Not necessarily.
I have no desire that he would.
He's not the same temperamentas me.
He's much more like my wife, soI would be surprised if he was
attracted to.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
What does that mean?
Speaker 2 (40:30):
What is she like?
She's certainly moreintroverted than I am and for me
I'm a very linear, logical,sequential thinker which I feel
like for what I do is a realasset For writing books and
crafting content.
To deliver on stage it reallyhelps.
My wife is far more creative.
She's just much more takethings as they come.
(40:52):
She's still very structured andorganized to get things
happening.
She produces life theory.
You've got to be prettyorganized to do that.
But she's less linear than I,am far more creative and I think
our boy is the same.
So I'd be surprised if he wasattracted to the sort of work I
do.
But hey, you never know.
But it's interesting seeing him, even as a young child, being
able to see what I do and forhim to sort of get it like he
(41:15):
came to a conference recentlyand just sat in the audience and
he just sees me at home justbeing dad and then suddenly
seeing me in that role was justa bit of it was an interesting
moment for him and just theprivilege it is for him and I
think he's aware of theprivilege to an extent of just
the experiences he has becauseof that.
So today, like it's schoolholidays here.
So when we finish this chat,I'm taking him today to a
(41:36):
colleague of mine's workshop.
This is one of us straight isleading robotic engineers.
He's a 35-year-old guy, like aproper genius, designs robots
for people with disabilities,like designed a car for someone
who couldn't move arms or legsquadriplegic, but they can drive
it while you're moving theireyes and he's invented all this
technology.
Anyway, I said to our littleboy, I said do you want to go
(41:57):
meet the man that builds robots?
And he said I'd love that.
So we're going over today tomeet this guy.
So just, I think our little boyis so aware that just because
of what I get to do, he gets tomeet some really interesting
people.
So you know, you never knowwhat your kid will do.
But I think part of the job asa parent is just to expose him
to as many different people andideas and ways of thinking, and
hopefully something a bit likeme as an eight-year-old in a
(42:17):
conference convention centergrabs their fascination and that
becomes a seed of an idea.
So that's the hope.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
If you could have dinner with any three people,
dead or alive, who would youchoose?
Speaker 2 (42:34):
I think Winston Churchill would be fascinating.
Yeah, matt McGandy would beanother one.
I would love to just learn fromyou know what's the sort of
mindset you have that allows youto do what he did.
I think Steve Jobs would bereally interesting to speak with
as well.
I just think he'd be his takeon things, and even looking at
(42:55):
what Apple has done over thelast you know, the years since
he passed away, I often thinkwhat would Steve do, and so I
think those three would bepeople all very different people
obviously, but they'd be people.
I've read their biographies.
I find them interesting ashumans.
I'd love to see what they'relike one-on-one.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
I have just finished a wonderful book.
I think it's one of the bestbooks I've read in a long time.
It's called Checkmate in Berlin.
Have you heard of it?
I haven't.
No, it's an amazing book.
It deals with sort of the lastfew months of the Second World
War and then sort of whathappened in Berlin, with the
(43:35):
Russians and the Americans andthe Brits and the France coming
in and taking it over.
But the reason I mention it isbecause Churchill, after the war
, was the only leader of theWestern world who saw what
(43:55):
Russia was up to, and he's theone who coined the phrase the
iron curtain.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
Did he really?
I didn't know that.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
Yes, when he was out of power, when he was already
voted out.
But he was asked to speak inthe United States at some small
Midwestern university and hemade this incredible speech
where he said iron curtain isdescending from Warsaw to, I
don't know, bulgaria or whatever.
(44:28):
Yes, and everybody attacked himfor it.
Wow, kind of nonsense is this,you know.
And boy did he see the worldhow it really was, and everybody
else was just denying whatStalin was really up to, and
(44:50):
Churchill was the one who saw itcoming, and he was the one in
1939 who was, of course, seeingwhat Hitler was up to.
Yeah, right.
Speaker 2 (45:02):
So yes, I'm definitely for Churchill, yes,
I'm a great I wonder what he'dsay of the current state of play
globally at the moment, becauseI think the beauty of someone
like Churchill is he had thatability to sum up complex
situations something pithy,memorable, repeatable and like,
devastatingly accurate, Likesome of his phrases.
The terms of phrases got cutthrough and you couldn't ignore
(45:24):
them, and I wonder what he wouldmake of some of the things that
we dress up in so much languagetoday.
He'd just speak through that, Isuspect, in a way that would be
probably quite useful.
Speaker 1 (45:33):
Yes, I think so.
Well, where is Churchill now,when we need him, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
What would you like to beremembered for?
Speaker 2 (45:49):
That's a great question.
I think the thing that I enjoyhearing the most like if I ever
hear the feedback that I've beenkind to people.
I love that and because that'ssomething that I'm very mindful
of, particularly now that in theposition I'm in certainly in
the industry that I'm intypically I'm sort of whisked
(46:10):
into back rooms and green roomsit's easy to just float around
and not have to engage withpeople and not make people feel
seen and valued, and I tried tonot do that.
I could try to every person,whether it's a sound technician
or someone backstage just takinga moment, to be kind and
valuing them.
I try and remember to do thatconsistently because it's easy
(46:32):
to forget that, and so I thinkthat's the thing when I hear the
feedback, that's what peopleappreciate.
That to me, is like that's thebest feedback.
So I'd love to think that wasthe impact.
Speaker 1 (46:45):
Okay, we are running out of time, so one more
question.
Speaker 2 (46:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:53):
What does being human mean to you?
Speaker 2 (46:59):
Oh, that's a great question as well.
I think growing, I think beinghuman is about growing.
The moment you stop doing thatand you see that.
And it doesn't have to be anage-related thing.
You meet some people in their20s and they've decided they've
figured everything out about theworld and they're not open to
growing and changing, and Ithink what a sad thing.
That's the point of being here.
(47:21):
To listen and learn and grow andchange.
The moment you stop doing that.
I mean, it's that pithy oldsort of 1980s saying you're
either green and growing or ripeand rotting, and I think there
is some truth in that.
If you're not growing andchanging, what are you doing?
If you're not going forward,you're going backwards, and so
that's probably the core of whatit is to be human is to be
always open and learning newthings and things you hadn't
(47:43):
considered before.
And I guess that's probablypart of the heart behind this
book too is to help peopledevelop a posture where they're
able to do that again, To notfeel like things that are new
are threatening, but things thatare new and different can be an
opportunity, even if they'reuncomfortable or inconvenient
truths.
Actually, that's how we grow ashumans.
There's a joy, there's a lifein that.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
Yes, and curiosity, you know, yeah, absolutely Not
being afraid to ask questions,definitely, which you have done
all your life.
Well, michael, we are out oftown, out of town, out of time,
out of time, but we could talkfor many, many more hours.
(48:29):
It has been a tremendouspleasure.
I've been speaking to MichaelMcQueen and look for his latest
book that's coming out when it?
Speaker 2 (48:39):
should be out early December.
Speaker 1 (48:41):
So it'll be all in all the bookstores.
Speaker 2 (48:43):
There's a website.
Up a website too.
Speaker 1 (48:45):
That's a great gift for Christmas, right.
Speaker 2 (48:49):
That's it, and thank you for writing an endorsement.
That was so kind of you to dothat.
I really appreciate it.
It was a pleasure.
Speaker 1 (48:55):
So the book is called Mindstruck Mastering the Art of
Changing, and my guest has beenMichael McQueen.
So let's stay in touch, michael.
I'd love that.
Thank you so much for makingthe time.
Take care Until next time.
Bye-bye, look forward to it.
Cheers, bye-bye, cheers.
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