September 7, 2025 • 40 mins
Join the enriching discourse in Same Same But Black, where host Michelle Maskell hosts a riveting interview with queer icon, Robert Taylor. Get insight into Robert's journey through personal revelations related to music, literature, film, and his Q-List, shared in this gripping episode aired during Auckland Pride. Known for his passion for photography and engrossing conversations about queer life, this episode is a must-listen showcase of self-love, acceptance, and the courage to be different.
Discover the truths and inspirations behind Robert's chosen songs and learn about the notable books that shaped his life. Immerse in his journey through significant films that have been instrumental in his path of self-imagination and acceptance. Experience a captivating and deeply personal reflection that becomes a testament to the journey of self-identification and the profound influence of art and cinema on his personal growth.
In this anticipated episode, hear about the charismatic Zanelli Moholy, a black queer non-binary photographer who made a deep impact on Robert. Dive intimately into Zanelli's life and work, their unique self-portraits, and their commendable rise in the art world. Robert also shares exciting tales from his life, including his growing interest in jewelry making and garment construction, his fascinating relationship with photography, and his contributions to Queer Britain. It's an episode filled with heartwarming aspirations and valuable insights into the queer experience, intertwined with a shared passion for the arts.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
I am Robert Taylor and this is my Q-List.
Q-List, brought to you by Same Same But Black, a collection of queer conversations
released during Auckland Pride.
I'm your host, Michelle, from Same Same But Black.
Music.
(00:31):
So welcome to Q-List 2024. My name is Michelle Maskell and this is for Same Same But Black.
And we have the beautiful opportunity to speak to the wonderful Robert Taylor,
who's zooming in all the way from the UK.
And so time zones applicable. It's his morning and my evening.
But I hope you're relaxed when you start to listen to Robert Taylor's Q-List
(00:54):
because it's quite a queue in the list.
So let's hand over to Robert. Give us an introduction. Tell us about yourself.
Hi, Michelle. I'm just so delighted to be here. And I am a black queer photographer.
For the last nearly 40 years, it's been the center of my creative life, my emotional life.
(01:17):
And it's basically about exploring and celebrating who people can be.
And I've had some wonderful opportunities to do
that in academe in the arts in queer zones and
it just keeps on delivering as i come up to my 66th
birthday not too far ahead i've just completed the biggest project ever and
(01:39):
it was completely and totally queer black centered and it was it was a big success
i'll no doubt tell you more about it as this goes on thank you i'm excited so
let's talk about your key list and why.
So first question, often the
most dynamic, how difficult was it for you to make these choices and why?
(02:02):
There were two stages to this challenge.
At first I was near to having a meltdown when I was trying to see how I could
cram my whole life into three examples in each category. Then I calmed down.
And I was able to focus much more easily on things that ticked two boxes.
They have some resonance today, and they may or may not go back a long, long way.
(02:27):
But it's about the quality and resonance now.
And it does still mean that some of my choices go back a very long way,
back into the 70s in some cases.
But it's mostly about what's making life work now. And I should add,
it was something to celebrate.
Trying to answer your questions gave
me a little almost celebratory tingle thinking, gosh, that was my life.
(02:51):
Let's head to your song selection.
So we chose three songs. So let's start with Looking Around by Stevie Wonder. And this was 1971.
Stevie Wonder is for me a black superhero.
I had to have Stevie as one of my tunes because Batman's output,
(03:14):
both as a musician and as a human being.
Gave me somewhere to look where I could feel proud, engaged, and challenged.
And I remember I was 13 when I heard this song.
And he wasn't yet a megastar, but it was already clear he was going to make
big waves in a music world that went way beyond the usual categories for Black artists.
(03:37):
And Stevie Wonder manages to give me everything I need as a Black man,
a Black person, a Black queer person.
But he also has a message that is somehow
powerfully universal without being bland we love
a bit of stevie somehow in every family gathering the stevie wonder track comes
out for all of us moving on to the second track in this selection we can work
(04:02):
it out i can almost hear the melody speak to us why how and when this came into
your life well chaka khan came into my life in the 1970s,
when I was serving in the British Royal Air Force.
I remember hearing some of her early work with the band Rufus.
As a lot of her songs are soundtracks to big chunks of my life,
(04:26):
Disastrous Love Affairs, Partying, you name it.
But this track is Chaka at her smart, carnal best. but it's also an hilarious
cover of a Beatles classic.
It's got pomp, swagger. She gives us her trademark wail throughout and particularly at the end.
(04:49):
And I've been listening to this track for decades and it still gives me a tingle.
This woman is everything that I need from a female vocalist.
I want to say chugga chugga chugga con.
Too good. And then we have the Blackbirds and a duet with David.
Well, Permissible Beauty is a massive two-part project I've been working on with David McCalmont.
(05:18):
Beautiful, hyper-talented musician and now art historian. We've been working on this since 2019.
It was a big project with a lot of other collaborators, but David invited me
to get involved and we were at the core, the creative soul, if you like, of this project.
And it's called Permissible Beauty because it's a look from a very contemporary
(05:40):
and Black queer perspective perspective on what we mean by human beauty,
and also looking at some of the problematic ways in which some decades,
centuries-old ideas of beauty that tend to focus on thin white folks have somehow
managed to permeate the world and make us all feel inadequate if we're paying attention to them.
(06:00):
So David came up with the idea, the audacious idea, of going to Hampton Court
Palace, where they have a collection of paintings called The Winds of Beauty.
It's a set of women from the 17th century who were basically King Charles II's eye candy.
And we gently and respectfully unpackaged the ideas that made them seem beautiful.
And then we brought in six Black queer performers to talk about what they saw
(06:25):
there and to create a whole new set of portraits that celebrate Black queer beauty,
but in a universal sense that says, whoever you are, whatever shape or size or age or inclination,
there is a conversation about beauty that could and should include you.
And there are two parts, as I say, there was a massive two-month installation
in the palace, at Hampton Court Palace, and we also made a film.
(06:49):
And in the film, after lots of beautiful oratory and discussion and sweeping
through the halls, we end up in this scene between David McCalmont and the Ghetto
Chocolat, where they're singing.
To each other it's not literally talking about
beauty but it's it's a passage in the film that
still brings me to a point of almost tears when
(07:11):
i hear it it's just one of those little exquisite artistic
miracles and i just hope people get to see our film i'm going to do a shameless
boast here in case anybody's in london between now and april the 28th because
you can go and see our film It is part of the Welcome Collections exhibition
(07:31):
called The Cult of Beauty.
And they loved our film so much, they built a cinema inside their exhibition
to show our film twice an hour every day until April.
Don't miss it, folks. If you're in London and the UK before the end of April
in 2024, make sure you get down and watch Permissible Beauty.
Moving on. And it seems like we should spend so much longer on those three songs.
(07:57):
But moving on to the books starting with
james baldwin yes yes talk
to me about his and i don't want to appear biased so
talk to me about james baldwin his impact on you and his
biography well it's funny i'm just feeling
a bit emotional as i start to think what i'm going to say first because
(08:18):
it made such an impact on me
i discovered i knew james baldwin was around he was a name
you couldn't avoid him but it was in the early 90s
when i was definitely becoming established in
my identity as a photographer and really wanting to
explore the world of art as an expression and i know there's this cliched saying
(08:39):
you can't be it if you can't see it i'm not sure i'd go quite that far but it's
definitely the case that if you're a black queer person moving in any of the
major fields of endeavour.
It really helps if there's somebody not just like you, but who's also the embodiment
of excellence with heart.
(09:02):
And when I read this biography of James Baldwin and I got to learn about his
life and how he dealt with his challenges and his exquisite and limitless capacity
to frame frame the world in ways that open our eyes, challenge us,
inspire us, and give us permission to be outrageous in what we need to get on with.
(09:23):
I felt liberated by him. It was after reading this biography that I was able
to attempt my first serious artwork, where I felt, yes, I can take up a whole
gallery with an installation.
I can say things that might make some white folks a a little bit uncomfortable,
but it was also an exhibition which I was proud to take my mother to,
(09:44):
who is not an habitué of the art scene, but she got it.
And I think it was partly because I felt confident and proud of what I'd done,
and that was partly out of the inspiration of James Baldwin.
Thank you, James. We live in your legacy. And to the second book, The Schiff on Trenches.
I've not read this, but please tell me why and when and how this book made this to the list.
(10:12):
Well, The Schiff on Trenches by the fabulous, inimitable Andre Leon Talley,
who is this gorgeous mountain of a man. well, was sadly, he died recently.
He was an associate editor of American Vogue, but he was so much more than that.
Coming from relatively humble beginnings in a part of America that was really
(10:35):
not cool if you were black, he managed to refine his sense of what the world
was about, get himself educated.
Break out of that humble beginning and project himself into a world that that
was, I don't think it was ready for what was coming,
he managed to attach himself to some of the biggest names in fashion,
(10:56):
and became an authority,
an icon, and also an outrageously entertaining commentator on the world of fashion.
So this title, The Ship on Trenches, takes us through, this book takes us through his adventures,
lots of triumphs, but also some really really gut-wrenching difficulties that
(11:19):
he had to go through dealing with the racism and homophobia that he'd find at times.
But overall, an inspirational figure. I've read it twice and I'll probably read
it again before next year is over because it's just lovely to hear what's possible.
And as a result, again, a bit like James Baldwin, experiencing Black queer excellence
in a creative field just reminds me, I'm allowed to take up space.
(11:44):
I'm allowed to have my own dreams and i'm allowed to say what i feel needs to
be said without fear or favor amen to that.
Well francis bacon what can we
say the gilded gutted life
of francis bacon well that francis bacon
is one of those artists who for whom i have huge admiration in some of the ways
(12:08):
he lived his life and particularly the quality and the bravery of the work he
created but francis bacon was one one of those first examples where I felt I
didn't need to meet my hero.
But The Gilded Gutter Life of Francis Bacon is written by somebody called Daniel
Farson, who was a sort of a kind of friend of his, who had a ringside seat at
(12:31):
some of the biggest adventures in this outrageous,
and I mean really outrageous, personal life.
It was obviously the context in which he was able able to produce this startling and challenging work.
I remember the first time I saw a Francis Bacon exhibition. It was a retrospective at Tate Britain.
I was so affected by it, I had to rush out to an art shop and get some materials.
(12:57):
I just had to make marks on paper. It's not my art form, as it turns out,
but it's the only way I could deal with the feelings.
And although he's a posh Anglo-Irish white man from another era,
I felt very connected with him as a creative soul.
Role and this biography gets down
to some really messy stuff but it
(13:19):
still left me inspired and wondering
you know how he survived and how he managed to turn out so much amazing work
when his life was such an incendiary and often catastrophically messy setup
sidebar the man And I love him, but he was in car crash. Yes.
(13:42):
Isla. Isla. Yeah. There is one other thing.
I'm being naughty because it's not on my list of favourite films,
but there is a film based on the book called Love is the Devil.
And even though the filmmakers were not allowed to use, the Francis Bacon estate
wouldn't let them use any of his paintings.
Paintings the director did a brilliant job of
(14:05):
of styling and and
color mooding the film so so many parts
of the film you felt you were in a francis bacon painting so
i'd recommend that as the accompaniment to reading
that book but we haven't got to my films yet moving on
to your film selection yeah so we've got three films here i'll just name them
(14:26):
uh quickly and we'll go back and cover them so we've got some like it hot brothers
outsider and permissible beauty starting with some like it hot which is a classic
for many people in an era where we were seen unseen,
speak to us why you chose this film and when did you first see it and why does it still carry.
(14:47):
Importance i'm guessing i first saw it in the 70s and although i was completely
clear in my queer queer identity for myself.
Back in those days, it was not a conversation at home, and I was not out there
waving flags or marching or even being in relationships.
It was just a sensibility that was deep within me, accepted within me,
(15:09):
and I had no idea how to deal with it.
So that first viewing was shocking. It was sort of outrageousness in plain sight. And how,
Mr. Curtis and Mr. Lemon got away with that. I don't know.
It was so queer. And I've watched it several times over the years and realized
(15:29):
more and more how outrageous it was and how clever it was to be so flagrant
in our face and yet somehow not outraging people.
So brave and so well done and packed with talent, all of whom seem to be firing at quite a high level.
(15:50):
I love it. I own it. I'm probably going to own a copy of it, should I say.
I'm probably going to watch it again at some time over Christmas when I've had
maybe one or two too many and just see if there's yet more to discover as my
own life has opened up more. Love that film so much.
And that last scene, I mean, wow, how did they get away with that?
(16:13):
The last scene I'm referring to is when Lemon, and his sort of weird connection
with a man who didn't seem to realise it was a man in drag.
And when the truth came out, the man was still happy to stay there.
I mean, that is a 21st century message.
And yet they got away with it in the 50s. Wow.
Love is love. That's what they say. Love is love. Yes.
(16:35):
Yes. Love is love. And moving on to quite a moving documentary, Brother Outsider.
For many people who are now encountering Bernard Rustin, of him in his time,
and now finally celebrating him in his truth.
Talk to us about Brother Outsider and the impact it had when you saw it.
Well, I first saw Brother Outsider because I happened by just lucky chance.
(17:00):
I, with my partner, Tristram, met the directors and some of the people who produced
the award-winning feature-length documentary that is called Brother Outsider. And...
I thought my cup was running over already with people like James Baldwin,
but to see somebody who was at the core of such an important movement in American and world history,
(17:22):
this documentary brought out not just the scale of this man's talents and achievements.
But also the humanity of the man, the warmth, the humor, the frailty,
the vulnerability, and a soaring capacity to inspire people around him.
He's somebody who I wished I did have the chance to meet
because there's something i would somehow bizarrely wish
(17:45):
i could catch from him the man had charisma to
burn a generosity of spirit and
courage which took him to places
that you know most human beings don't get to a lovely character and yes there
now is a biopic which sort of gives a fictional well not fictionalized i mean
what it depicts is true on netflix and i and i I actually like the fact that
(18:09):
there are these two films sitting side by side.
But my favorite is definitely the documentary because it focuses on the fact. It doesn't speculate.
And we see a lot of footage of the man himself. And it's very easy to see why
he caused such a stir wherever he went, not just in American politics, but around the world.
Beautiful soul. And another example of black queer excellence.
(18:35):
All day. All day.
And then we move to moving on to permissible beauty again a short film released
in 2023 in the uk hopefully one day we'll get a screening and,
New Zealand, just saying.
(18:56):
Well, Michelle, I am going to shamelessly now celebrate and promote a film that
I actually had a big hand in creating.
As I explained at the top of the program, my dear friend of three and more decades,
David McCalmont, approached me in 2019.
(19:16):
At that point, we'd already had 30-odd years of being a mutual admiration society.
And I was in awe of the music, and more recently, the art history career he's
carving out for himself.
So when he said to me, Robert, I've got an idea for a project,
and I want to work with you on this. I need you in this.
I was a bit apprehensive at first,
(19:38):
not because I doubted David's ability to do anything, but I wasn't so clear
about what I could bring to such an audacious,
such an outrageous concept and the ideas he had for it but we got to work and
we were able to attract some brilliant talent in the form of professor richard
sandell who was the overall producer you might say of the whole enterprise and
(20:01):
mark thomas who was the film's director,
and lots of other people in terms of design and strategy not to mention the
amazing people at at Hampton Court Palace, who made us so welcome and saw us as an opportunity.
And this went way beyond equality and diversity box ticking.
They saw us as an opportunity to bring their collection to life and open up
(20:24):
a much bigger conversation. And we got away with it.
Well, more than got away with it, it's the gift that keeps on giving,
as we now see it as part of the Wellcome Foundation's mega exploration of the concept of beauty.
They pitched to us to ask if our film would be part of their project. Couldn't make that up.
(20:44):
I'm so proud of this film now that it's in a semi-permanent residence in central London.
Of course, lots of friends are asking me to take them to see it with them.
And I keep seeing new versions of
it because as you sit with somebody that you care about you're
looking at it through their fresh eyes and my very eclectic social
circle means that my imagination has been stretched
(21:06):
in all kinds of directions as I think about what they're
experiencing and the wonderful conversations we're having after we've
watched the film together and it's basically our take
on beauty from a very specific highly
creative deeply researched perspective that
is is despite all of those specializations turning out
(21:27):
to be very accessible and relevant
to all sorts of people many of whom are
not black or queer or fashiony or any
of the things that would make you think you needed to be in those
gangs to get the film it has a universal message and
at this end this part of my career because you know
i'm getting to the end of things i'm just so thrilled that
(21:48):
there's been this explosion of an opportunity to do something thing that has
landed so well about time just saying bad time when we move move to your move
to your artists which are again a quite an eclectic collection of artists.
I'll let you speak to your artist because... Well, the first artist has to be
(22:12):
Rotimi Fane Kayode. Not because he's the first artist that I was really aware
of, but because meeting him changed my life.
When I met Rotimi Fane Kayode in early 1987, I think it was.
I was just a keen hobbyist photographer.
(22:33):
I was working in publishing to and fro into Nigeria, doing
my very kind of straight vanilla mainstream but
quite fascinating thing and i was at a
black gay social group and somebody who knew
of rotimi fane coyote whispered in
my ear you know who's in the room don't you kind of thing and i said who looking
around room full of black queer men and he pointed me out to rotimi and then
(22:58):
sort of manhandled me across the room and introduced me and I quickly realized
just from this man's presence that I needed to be paying attention.
My way of getting into this was to rather grandly commission Rotimi to take
my picture so that I could get a sense of what all the fuss was about.
So I booked a session with him and yet the pictures were nice enough but what
(23:21):
really grabbed me was going into the studio of a true artist and and observing the way he worked,
the way he handled the camera, the way he worked with me, and the seriousness
with which he took what he was doing.
And it suddenly occurred to me, oh my God, this is an art form.
It's not just a way of making nice pictures.
(23:43):
And at quite a deeply instinctive level, I knew it was time for a big change.
And although I had a very nice life as it was.
At that session, it became clear to me that this was the direction I was going in.
And in very short order, I changed my life around, left publishing and dived in to photography.
(24:07):
And Rattami had a big hand in the early stages.
He was a very brilliant, informal mentor.
We never used the M word, but he was so generous in the way he encouraged me,
supported my efforts and allowed me to photograph him. him as much as he photographed me.
And he was making waves. He was, you know, having big exhibitions and getting
(24:30):
a lot of plaudits in some serious spaces. And let's be frank about it.
In those days, there weren't that many opportunities around funding and exhibition
and publicity for anything black and queer.
So it wasn't an instinctive thing for him to be being so generous to somebody
who, I'm not claiming I was any competition, but in in terms of the white gatekeepers,
(24:51):
you know, I was crowding the space, but that wasn't the issue with him.
Anyway, long story short, we had a great time together, having a lot of fun
photographing each other.
And he was very generous in what he taught me. And I got my first opportunity
to have an exhibition in a serious space in America.
Now the images that I'd created and the negatives were high quality enough,
(25:13):
but I hadn't yet mastered the craft of exhibition exhibition printmaking.
And he very kindly sacrificed a lot of his own time one weekend to help me make
the prints, get them ready and get them shipped over to the States in time for the exhibition.
And about two or three days after we'd done all that, I had a phone call from
his partner, the writer Alex Hurst, telling me that Rotimi had been taken ill.
(25:37):
So my first instinct was to dive in and say, well, when can I go and visit him in hospital?
And Alex said to me, well give it a week or
so because it's infectious and they
won't be letting any businesses in but i'll call you in about a week's time
and i'm sure you can go and visit him alex called me
about a week later to tell me that rutimi had
died suddenly from a massive heart attack complications with the condition that
(26:00):
he had well it was shocking and very hard to process because this man had just
laid out for me a whole new way of seeing the world. It literally changed my life.
And I was looking forward to enjoying what was, I thought, us at the threshold
of a great long connection, learning from each other, having fun together.
(26:22):
And suddenly he was gone.
21st of December, 1989, Rotimiq.
Rotimi Fanny Coyote, Dead at 34. It sent ripples throughout the queer and not just queer art world.
And I remember thinking one of his biggest splashes was a half-page illustrated
(26:43):
obituary in a broadsheet newspaper.
It was just so weird and ironic that, you know, that biggest splash at that time was the thing.
He's gone on to have an amazing 30 odd
year posthumous career all kinds of books written about him
exhibitions and i've been a little kind of
(27:03):
micro industry myself giving lots of talks about him being invited on radio
and all kinds of things to talk about him and as recently as this year at queer
britain which is the the relatively new queer history museum i was asked to
make and lead a Black History Month event,
which I made all about Rotimi from a very personal point of view,
(27:26):
which is a very moving and rewarding experience,
taking that opportunity to make sure that 30-odd years after he died,
people will not forget his name because he really matters. He still really matters.
My next artist is Francis Bacon, the painter who we've already talked about in a very different way.
It wasn't that I identified with Francis
(27:47):
Bacon, but I was excited by the outrageousness of his life and the bold.
Dark power of his work i
just i just for anybody who doesn't know his work you
know buckle up and dive in there's an awful lot to see a very brave and and
(28:07):
dynamic artist who for me more than delivers on the hype which isn't always
the case with some of the great names and finally we come to the contemporary.
Zanelli Moholy, the stunningly talented, charismatic,
black, queer, I say woman, though I know that now reference to being non-binary,
(28:31):
but when I met them, they were a fierce lesbian photographer.
And here's the funny thing. I'll tell a short story about Zanelli.
Back in 2015, before they were really a big name on the scene,
Autograph, the Association of Black Photographers, had
given Zanelli my contact details because Zanelli wanted to come to my little
(28:54):
studio in London to interview me and photograph me and do a little film clip
about me as one of a series of paying respect to black queer elders.
Well, when I got over the shock and stopped looking over my shoulder to think,
who are they talking about? Oh, me.
You know, I welcomed Zanelli and their assistant into my flat.
(29:18):
And it was really funny. They were so sweet and so kind and so generous.
And I eventually just found some grace and decided to let it happen.
And we had a lovely time together.
But just now, as it happened, they were having trouble with one of their tripods.
And I had by accident bought two tripods that were very similar and I really didn't need one.
(29:41):
And in a moment, I was a bit flush at the time and in a moment of just.
Madness maybe i just said to zanelli well look why there's one here why don't
you use it and why don't you keep it because i have no use for it it's too similar to the one i have.
And we carried on with the shoot and it was done and off they went a few years passed and suddenly,
(30:03):
zanelli's name is popping up in major international spaces winning awards getting
major retrospective shows all over the place.
And then I was commissioned by an Oxford art project to curate an exhibition
of leading women photographers.
And I was given access to a massive database of about 200 people I could choose
(30:26):
from international, you know, high profile photographers.
And there were lots of people I wanted to work with.
And then I thought, if I could get Zanelli, but of course, by this stage,
Zanelli was walking on water and floating in the heavens.
And the organization had tried to reach Zanelli and not getting anywhere.
And I thought, how low can I go?
(30:48):
I got Zanelli's email address and wrote a really smarmy email.
First of all, starting with a congratulatory message about the huge success
since we'd met in my humble little studio and hoping that the tripod was still working.
Oh, and by the way, I'm curating an exhibition.
(31:08):
Would you consider honoring us with
access to say a dozen of your images it would
make the world a difference to the credibility of our project i
held my breath pressed send and to
my delighted amazement zanelli came straight back to me and was just so generous
in making images available and the organizers of the art festival in oxford
(31:32):
thought i was somebody if i could get zanelli lovely little postscript to this
tale after that very happy outcome.
Earlier this year, I was in Paris on holiday.
Now, we have to remember, Zanelli lives in South Africa, near Johannesburg.
I'm walking down a street in Paris.
(31:53):
And who is walking up the street but Zanelli?
If you think of the likelihood that
you're going to be bumping into this international star on the afternoon,
in the hour, in the minute it when you're turning a corner to walk down whatever
it was avenue and there is an ellie walking the other direction we just shrieked
(32:14):
grabbed each other and i don't know what people around us thought was going
on but it was such an exciting moment and such a wild coincidence it was just a magical moment.
I should say, I've said all this about the person. What I haven't said is enough about Zanelli's work.
The work that I'm most familiar with, although Zanelli celebrates all kinds
(32:36):
of aspects of the Black queer experience and beyond,
I was particularly interested in Zanelli's self-portraits, a kind of self-portrait
where basically exploring all kinds of archetypal and not so archetypal queer
identities, but with brilliant,
brilliant art direction and use of various kinds of props and unusual textures
(32:59):
and items and atmospheres to generate this endless set of possibilities of identity.
I just love the work. And I was so proud last year to go to Tate Britain and
walk walk around a major international gallery and see the walls packed with this artist's work.
(33:22):
It just made me so pleased and so proud.
What memories or flashbacks do these, this selection bring back for you?
Is there sort of like other memories that are related to these collections?
Oh, of course. As I said at the top of the programme, I am.
(33:43):
I chose these because they're about things that have a contemporary resonance,
even if some of them reach back a long way.
If I tried to do my life story, we'd need hours, and it would probably be quite tedious.
But going back to the songs, when I choose one song, right at the beginning
of my discovering Stevie Wonder, before he became mega, mega, mega,
(34:05):
what is always going to be there for me is there would never be enough time
to cover all the things I appreciate about Stevie Wonder's music and his life.
And it was interesting during the lockdown, my partner and I had a lot more
time to be on our own relaxing.
And we decided informally that we would just dive into my collection of Stevie
(34:30):
CDs from the early days right through to the latest that I own.
And what was so rewarding and rich was just hearing them again.
Re-appreciating the writing the singing the production values that there was
always this thing with stevie wonder the music press were quite side eye about
(34:51):
the time it took for him to turn out his albums and the delays in actually getting
the things out but when you heard those those albums, you understood why.
This is again, excellence, excellence.
And the impact that that man has had on the music scene throughout all kinds
of genres and different kinds of characters, he's a colossus and he's the backdrop
(35:13):
to all of my formative years.
And when I think about Chaka Khan, it's not just that she can sing so well and
she can make it so witty and carnal and fun, fun, but that she's so smart.
What I've always enjoyed about her, yeah, she can wail, but you know,
there's an intelligence in there. She knows what she's doing. It's the control.
(35:37):
Ah, fantastic. And I probably said enough about David McCalmont and the joy
of working with him and his inestimable talent, but it's one of the thrills
of my life to have worked closely with a friend and feel closer to that friend afterwards.
Cause they, they always say don't work with animals and children and whatever
else, but also that there's a one in brackets, don't work with your friends
(35:59):
if you want to keep them. Well, we got away with it.
We got away with it. We had a a good time as to
the books as books with any good
book they're things that i usually want to
return to because i'll keep finding new
things in them either because i missed them the
first or third or second or third time or because i've changed my perspective
(36:21):
brings a different way of cultivating what's there uh the films i've probably
said enough about the films though So it's weird to be still discovering so
much about a film that I was part of the production of.
That is quite funny.
And Zanelli, well, still young enough to have a massive career ahead of them.
(36:44):
And I hope, well, I'm looking, I hope I can be around.
I hope I can get to South Africa, because I've been invited.
They've invited me very generously. It's a question of getting things sorted
out to get out there and maybe make some kind of contribution. We'll see.
How important do you think these conversations are in collecting or archiving
(37:05):
some of our voices in our own words?
I think what you're doing with this lovely project is absolutely rich and powerful
and positive in what it makes possible.
I've listened to some of the other contributors and apart from leaving me slightly
intimidated, like, what have I got to say? But it's just lovely to hear living histories.
(37:30):
I will, if you'll forgive me, mention a little bit more about Queer Britain,
which is a charity that was the seed of an idea back in 2017-18.
And it's already in its first building and doing a lot of work with not just
exhibitions of things about famous people.
That one of the core aspects of the mission of Queer Britain is to democratise
(37:52):
and enrich our idea of what history is.
And it's about the first person testimonies of people who were there,
not just on screens or in famous books or in fabulous galleries,
but living complicated and fascinating lives.
And when you ask people questions and people answer them, you know,
There's so much to learn and so much to appreciate.
(38:15):
So you're doing in this project an aspect of what we're trying to do at Queer
Britain. So I'm there for it. I'm a fan. Thank you.
We kind of answered the next question, which is hopes and dreams.
Hopes and dreams. Well, hopes and dreams, I suppose, coming back to the very personal.
And I've not really said this in public before. At 65, I'm realizing the energies
(38:40):
that I have for certain things are more refined now.
I don't need to show up and be there and be seen.
It's much more about the quality of the experience and why I'd be using my time
doing one thing rather than another. other.
And so I think my relationship with photography is evolving.
I still love it, but I think I want to evolve in a circular way back to the
(39:05):
place where when I pick up a camera, it's for pure pleasure.
It's not running after the money
or it's not running after trying to be famous or have somebody see it.
It's because the person or the subject or the situation or the possibilities
for collaboration really pull me. That's why I'd be there.
And I've noticed particularly
(39:25):
in the last four or five years I am just
getting more and more caught up with not only
buying lots of jewelry but making jewelry being more adventurous in what I wear
and getting into I've even taken a basic garment construction course at Morley
College just before the lockdown and I'm enjoying just getting involved in other
(39:46):
kinds of creativity and also So I guess my social network is changing.
I'm just finding myself drawn to places that are not the usual for me.
So I'm just hoping I'm granted enough sanity and energy to have a few years
exploring these new terrains. But the camera will always be there.
(40:06):
It'll just be a different relationship to it. This has been magnificent.
And with the magnificent Robert Taylor, need I say, that was our Q list.
I suggest everybody follow the links and find out as much as you can about robert
taylor that was amazing thank you for taking the time to have this conversation
(40:26):
and talking to us about your q list,
thank you for listening to the q list can be found on www.samesamebutblack.co.nz
ig facebook and all other social media platforms.
Music.
I am Robert Taylor and this is my Q-List.
Q-List, brought to you by Same Same But Black, a collection of queer conversations
released during Auckland Pride.
I'm your host, Michelle, from Same Same But Black.
Music.
(00:31):
So welcome to Q-List 2024. My name is Michelle Maskell and this is for Same Same But Black.
And we have the beautiful opportunity to speak to the wonderful Robert Taylor,
who's zooming in all the way from the UK.
And so time zones applicable. It's his morning and my evening.
But I hope you're relaxed when you start to listen to Robert Taylor's Q-List
(00:54):
because it's quite a queue in the list.
So let's hand over to Robert. Give us an introduction. Tell us about yourself.
Hi, Michelle. I'm just so delighted to be here. And I am a black queer photographer.
For the last nearly 40 years, it's been the center of my creative life, my emotional life.
(01:17):
And it's basically about exploring and celebrating who people can be.
And I've had some wonderful opportunities to do
that in academe in the arts in queer zones and
it just keeps on delivering as i come up to my 66th
birthday not too far ahead i've just completed the biggest project ever and
(01:39):
it was completely and totally queer black centered and it was it was a big success
i'll no doubt tell you more about it as this goes on thank you i'm excited so
let's talk about your key list and why.
So first question, often the
most dynamic, how difficult was it for you to make these choices and why?
(02:02):
There were two stages to this challenge.
At first I was near to having a meltdown when I was trying to see how I could
cram my whole life into three examples in each category. Then I calmed down.
And I was able to focus much more easily on things that ticked two boxes.
They have some resonance today, and they may or may not go back a long, long way.
(02:27):
But it's about the quality and resonance now.
And it does still mean that some of my choices go back a very long way,
back into the 70s in some cases.
But it's mostly about what's making life work now. And I should add,
it was something to celebrate.
Trying to answer your questions gave
me a little almost celebratory tingle thinking, gosh, that was my life.
(02:51):
Let's head to your song selection.
So we chose three songs. So let's start with Looking Around by Stevie Wonder. And this was 1971.
Stevie Wonder is for me a black superhero.
I had to have Stevie as one of my tunes because Batman's output,
(03:14):
both as a musician and as a human being.
Gave me somewhere to look where I could feel proud, engaged, and challenged.
And I remember I was 13 when I heard this song.
And he wasn't yet a megastar, but it was already clear he was going to make
big waves in a music world that went way beyond the usual categories for Black artists.
(03:37):
And Stevie Wonder manages to give me everything I need as a Black man,
a Black person, a Black queer person.
But he also has a message that is somehow
powerfully universal without being bland we love
a bit of stevie somehow in every family gathering the stevie wonder track comes
out for all of us moving on to the second track in this selection we can work
(04:02):
it out i can almost hear the melody speak to us why how and when this came into
your life well chaka khan came into my life in the 1970s,
when I was serving in the British Royal Air Force.
I remember hearing some of her early work with the band Rufus.
As a lot of her songs are soundtracks to big chunks of my life,
(04:26):
Disastrous Love Affairs, Partying, you name it.
But this track is Chaka at her smart, carnal best. but it's also an hilarious
cover of a Beatles classic.
It's got pomp, swagger. She gives us her trademark wail throughout and particularly at the end.
(04:49):
And I've been listening to this track for decades and it still gives me a tingle.
This woman is everything that I need from a female vocalist.
I want to say chugga chugga chugga con.
Too good. And then we have the Blackbirds and a duet with David.
Well, Permissible Beauty is a massive two-part project I've been working on with David McCalmont.
(05:18):
Beautiful, hyper-talented musician and now art historian. We've been working on this since 2019.
It was a big project with a lot of other collaborators, but David invited me
to get involved and we were at the core, the creative soul, if you like, of this project.
And it's called Permissible Beauty because it's a look from a very contemporary
(05:40):
and Black queer perspective perspective on what we mean by human beauty,
and also looking at some of the problematic ways in which some decades,
centuries-old ideas of beauty that tend to focus on thin white folks have somehow
managed to permeate the world and make us all feel inadequate if we're paying attention to them.
(06:00):
So David came up with the idea, the audacious idea, of going to Hampton Court
Palace, where they have a collection of paintings called The Winds of Beauty.
It's a set of women from the 17th century who were basically King Charles II's eye candy.
And we gently and respectfully unpackaged the ideas that made them seem beautiful.
And then we brought in six Black queer performers to talk about what they saw
(06:25):
there and to create a whole new set of portraits that celebrate Black queer beauty,
but in a universal sense that says, whoever you are, whatever shape or size or age or inclination,
there is a conversation about beauty that could and should include you.
And there are two parts, as I say, there was a massive two-month installation
in the palace, at Hampton Court Palace, and we also made a film.
(06:49):
And in the film, after lots of beautiful oratory and discussion and sweeping
through the halls, we end up in this scene between David McCalmont and the Ghetto
Chocolat, where they're singing.
To each other it's not literally talking about
beauty but it's it's a passage in the film that
still brings me to a point of almost tears when
(07:11):
i hear it it's just one of those little exquisite artistic
miracles and i just hope people get to see our film i'm going to do a shameless
boast here in case anybody's in london between now and april the 28th because
you can go and see our film It is part of the Welcome Collections exhibition
(07:31):
called The Cult of Beauty.
And they loved our film so much, they built a cinema inside their exhibition
to show our film twice an hour every day until April.
Don't miss it, folks. If you're in London and the UK before the end of April
in 2024, make sure you get down and watch Permissible Beauty.
Moving on. And it seems like we should spend so much longer on those three songs.
(07:57):
But moving on to the books starting with
james baldwin yes yes talk
to me about his and i don't want to appear biased so
talk to me about james baldwin his impact on you and his
biography well it's funny i'm just feeling
a bit emotional as i start to think what i'm going to say first because
(08:18):
it made such an impact on me
i discovered i knew james baldwin was around he was a name
you couldn't avoid him but it was in the early 90s
when i was definitely becoming established in
my identity as a photographer and really wanting to
explore the world of art as an expression and i know there's this cliched saying
(08:39):
you can't be it if you can't see it i'm not sure i'd go quite that far but it's
definitely the case that if you're a black queer person moving in any of the
major fields of endeavour.
It really helps if there's somebody not just like you, but who's also the embodiment
of excellence with heart.
(09:02):
And when I read this biography of James Baldwin and I got to learn about his
life and how he dealt with his challenges and his exquisite and limitless capacity
to frame frame the world in ways that open our eyes, challenge us,
inspire us, and give us permission to be outrageous in what we need to get on with.
(09:23):
I felt liberated by him. It was after reading this biography that I was able
to attempt my first serious artwork, where I felt, yes, I can take up a whole
gallery with an installation.
I can say things that might make some white folks a a little bit uncomfortable,
but it was also an exhibition which I was proud to take my mother to,
(09:44):
who is not an habitué of the art scene, but she got it.
And I think it was partly because I felt confident and proud of what I'd done,
and that was partly out of the inspiration of James Baldwin.
Thank you, James. We live in your legacy. And to the second book, The Schiff on Trenches.
I've not read this, but please tell me why and when and how this book made this to the list.
(10:12):
Well, The Schiff on Trenches by the fabulous, inimitable Andre Leon Talley,
who is this gorgeous mountain of a man. well, was sadly, he died recently.
He was an associate editor of American Vogue, but he was so much more than that.
Coming from relatively humble beginnings in a part of America that was really
(10:35):
not cool if you were black, he managed to refine his sense of what the world
was about, get himself educated.
Break out of that humble beginning and project himself into a world that that
was, I don't think it was ready for what was coming,
he managed to attach himself to some of the biggest names in fashion,
(10:56):
and became an authority,
an icon, and also an outrageously entertaining commentator on the world of fashion.
So this title, The Ship on Trenches, takes us through, this book takes us through his adventures,
lots of triumphs, but also some really really gut-wrenching difficulties that
(11:19):
he had to go through dealing with the racism and homophobia that he'd find at times.
But overall, an inspirational figure. I've read it twice and I'll probably read
it again before next year is over because it's just lovely to hear what's possible.
And as a result, again, a bit like James Baldwin, experiencing Black queer excellence
in a creative field just reminds me, I'm allowed to take up space.
(11:44):
I'm allowed to have my own dreams and i'm allowed to say what i feel needs to
be said without fear or favor amen to that.
Well francis bacon what can we
say the gilded gutted life
of francis bacon well that francis bacon
is one of those artists who for whom i have huge admiration in some of the ways
(12:08):
he lived his life and particularly the quality and the bravery of the work he
created but francis bacon was one one of those first examples where I felt I
didn't need to meet my hero.
But The Gilded Gutter Life of Francis Bacon is written by somebody called Daniel
Farson, who was a sort of a kind of friend of his, who had a ringside seat at
(12:31):
some of the biggest adventures in this outrageous,
and I mean really outrageous, personal life.
It was obviously the context in which he was able able to produce this startling and challenging work.
I remember the first time I saw a Francis Bacon exhibition. It was a retrospective at Tate Britain.
I was so affected by it, I had to rush out to an art shop and get some materials.
(12:57):
I just had to make marks on paper. It's not my art form, as it turns out,
but it's the only way I could deal with the feelings.
And although he's a posh Anglo-Irish white man from another era,
I felt very connected with him as a creative soul.
Role and this biography gets down
to some really messy stuff but it
(13:19):
still left me inspired and wondering
you know how he survived and how he managed to turn out so much amazing work
when his life was such an incendiary and often catastrophically messy setup
sidebar the man And I love him, but he was in car crash. Yes.
(13:42):
Isla. Isla. Yeah. There is one other thing.
I'm being naughty because it's not on my list of favourite films,
but there is a film based on the book called Love is the Devil.
And even though the filmmakers were not allowed to use, the Francis Bacon estate
wouldn't let them use any of his paintings.
Paintings the director did a brilliant job of
(14:05):
of styling and and
color mooding the film so so many parts
of the film you felt you were in a francis bacon painting so
i'd recommend that as the accompaniment to reading
that book but we haven't got to my films yet moving on
to your film selection yeah so we've got three films here i'll just name them
(14:26):
uh quickly and we'll go back and cover them so we've got some like it hot brothers
outsider and permissible beauty starting with some like it hot which is a classic
for many people in an era where we were seen unseen,
speak to us why you chose this film and when did you first see it and why does it still carry.
(14:47):
Importance i'm guessing i first saw it in the 70s and although i was completely
clear in my queer queer identity for myself.
Back in those days, it was not a conversation at home, and I was not out there
waving flags or marching or even being in relationships.
It was just a sensibility that was deep within me, accepted within me,
(15:09):
and I had no idea how to deal with it.
So that first viewing was shocking. It was sort of outrageousness in plain sight. And how,
Mr. Curtis and Mr. Lemon got away with that. I don't know.
It was so queer. And I've watched it several times over the years and realized
(15:29):
more and more how outrageous it was and how clever it was to be so flagrant
in our face and yet somehow not outraging people.
So brave and so well done and packed with talent, all of whom seem to be firing at quite a high level.
(15:50):
I love it. I own it. I'm probably going to own a copy of it, should I say.
I'm probably going to watch it again at some time over Christmas when I've had
maybe one or two too many and just see if there's yet more to discover as my
own life has opened up more. Love that film so much.
And that last scene, I mean, wow, how did they get away with that?
(16:13):
The last scene I'm referring to is when Lemon, and his sort of weird connection
with a man who didn't seem to realise it was a man in drag.
And when the truth came out, the man was still happy to stay there.
I mean, that is a 21st century message.
And yet they got away with it in the 50s. Wow.
Love is love. That's what they say. Love is love. Yes.
(16:35):
Yes. Love is love. And moving on to quite a moving documentary, Brother Outsider.
For many people who are now encountering Bernard Rustin, of him in his time,
and now finally celebrating him in his truth.
Talk to us about Brother Outsider and the impact it had when you saw it.
Well, I first saw Brother Outsider because I happened by just lucky chance.
(17:00):
I, with my partner, Tristram, met the directors and some of the people who produced
the award-winning feature-length documentary that is called Brother Outsider. And...
I thought my cup was running over already with people like James Baldwin,
but to see somebody who was at the core of such an important movement in American and world history,
(17:22):
this documentary brought out not just the scale of this man's talents and achievements.
But also the humanity of the man, the warmth, the humor, the frailty,
the vulnerability, and a soaring capacity to inspire people around him.
He's somebody who I wished I did have the chance to meet
because there's something i would somehow bizarrely wish
(17:45):
i could catch from him the man had charisma to
burn a generosity of spirit and
courage which took him to places
that you know most human beings don't get to a lovely character and yes there
now is a biopic which sort of gives a fictional well not fictionalized i mean
what it depicts is true on netflix and i and i I actually like the fact that
(18:09):
there are these two films sitting side by side.
But my favorite is definitely the documentary because it focuses on the fact. It doesn't speculate.
And we see a lot of footage of the man himself. And it's very easy to see why
he caused such a stir wherever he went, not just in American politics, but around the world.
Beautiful soul. And another example of black queer excellence.
(18:35):
All day. All day.
And then we move to moving on to permissible beauty again a short film released
in 2023 in the uk hopefully one day we'll get a screening and,
New Zealand, just saying.
(18:56):
Well, Michelle, I am going to shamelessly now celebrate and promote a film that
I actually had a big hand in creating.
As I explained at the top of the program, my dear friend of three and more decades,
David McCalmont, approached me in 2019.
(19:16):
At that point, we'd already had 30-odd years of being a mutual admiration society.
And I was in awe of the music, and more recently, the art history career he's
carving out for himself.
So when he said to me, Robert, I've got an idea for a project,
and I want to work with you on this. I need you in this.
I was a bit apprehensive at first,
(19:38):
not because I doubted David's ability to do anything, but I wasn't so clear
about what I could bring to such an audacious,
such an outrageous concept and the ideas he had for it but we got to work and
we were able to attract some brilliant talent in the form of professor richard
sandell who was the overall producer you might say of the whole enterprise and
(20:01):
mark thomas who was the film's director,
and lots of other people in terms of design and strategy not to mention the
amazing people at at Hampton Court Palace, who made us so welcome and saw us as an opportunity.
And this went way beyond equality and diversity box ticking.
They saw us as an opportunity to bring their collection to life and open up
(20:24):
a much bigger conversation. And we got away with it.
Well, more than got away with it, it's the gift that keeps on giving,
as we now see it as part of the Wellcome Foundation's mega exploration of the concept of beauty.
They pitched to us to ask if our film would be part of their project. Couldn't make that up.
(20:44):
I'm so proud of this film now that it's in a semi-permanent residence in central London.
Of course, lots of friends are asking me to take them to see it with them.
And I keep seeing new versions of
it because as you sit with somebody that you care about you're
looking at it through their fresh eyes and my very eclectic social
circle means that my imagination has been stretched
(21:06):
in all kinds of directions as I think about what they're
experiencing and the wonderful conversations we're having after we've
watched the film together and it's basically our take
on beauty from a very specific highly
creative deeply researched perspective that
is is despite all of those specializations turning out
(21:27):
to be very accessible and relevant
to all sorts of people many of whom are
not black or queer or fashiony or any
of the things that would make you think you needed to be in those
gangs to get the film it has a universal message and
at this end this part of my career because you know
i'm getting to the end of things i'm just so thrilled that
(21:48):
there's been this explosion of an opportunity to do something thing that has
landed so well about time just saying bad time when we move move to your move
to your artists which are again a quite an eclectic collection of artists.
I'll let you speak to your artist because... Well, the first artist has to be
(22:12):
Rotimi Fane Kayode. Not because he's the first artist that I was really aware
of, but because meeting him changed my life.
When I met Rotimi Fane Kayode in early 1987, I think it was.
I was just a keen hobbyist photographer.
(22:33):
I was working in publishing to and fro into Nigeria, doing
my very kind of straight vanilla mainstream but
quite fascinating thing and i was at a
black gay social group and somebody who knew
of rotimi fane coyote whispered in
my ear you know who's in the room don't you kind of thing and i said who looking
around room full of black queer men and he pointed me out to rotimi and then
(22:58):
sort of manhandled me across the room and introduced me and I quickly realized
just from this man's presence that I needed to be paying attention.
My way of getting into this was to rather grandly commission Rotimi to take
my picture so that I could get a sense of what all the fuss was about.
So I booked a session with him and yet the pictures were nice enough but what
(23:21):
really grabbed me was going into the studio of a true artist and and observing the way he worked,
the way he handled the camera, the way he worked with me, and the seriousness
with which he took what he was doing.
And it suddenly occurred to me, oh my God, this is an art form.
It's not just a way of making nice pictures.
(23:43):
And at quite a deeply instinctive level, I knew it was time for a big change.
And although I had a very nice life as it was.
At that session, it became clear to me that this was the direction I was going in.
And in very short order, I changed my life around, left publishing and dived in to photography.
(24:07):
And Rattami had a big hand in the early stages.
He was a very brilliant, informal mentor.
We never used the M word, but he was so generous in the way he encouraged me,
supported my efforts and allowed me to photograph him. him as much as he photographed me.
And he was making waves. He was, you know, having big exhibitions and getting
(24:30):
a lot of plaudits in some serious spaces. And let's be frank about it.
In those days, there weren't that many opportunities around funding and exhibition
and publicity for anything black and queer.
So it wasn't an instinctive thing for him to be being so generous to somebody
who, I'm not claiming I was any competition, but in in terms of the white gatekeepers,
(24:51):
you know, I was crowding the space, but that wasn't the issue with him.
Anyway, long story short, we had a great time together, having a lot of fun
photographing each other.
And he was very generous in what he taught me. And I got my first opportunity
to have an exhibition in a serious space in America.
Now the images that I'd created and the negatives were high quality enough,
(25:13):
but I hadn't yet mastered the craft of exhibition exhibition printmaking.
And he very kindly sacrificed a lot of his own time one weekend to help me make
the prints, get them ready and get them shipped over to the States in time for the exhibition.
And about two or three days after we'd done all that, I had a phone call from
his partner, the writer Alex Hurst, telling me that Rotimi had been taken ill.
(25:37):
So my first instinct was to dive in and say, well, when can I go and visit him in hospital?
And Alex said to me, well give it a week or
so because it's infectious and they
won't be letting any businesses in but i'll call you in about a week's time
and i'm sure you can go and visit him alex called me
about a week later to tell me that rutimi had
died suddenly from a massive heart attack complications with the condition that
(26:00):
he had well it was shocking and very hard to process because this man had just
laid out for me a whole new way of seeing the world. It literally changed my life.
And I was looking forward to enjoying what was, I thought, us at the threshold
of a great long connection, learning from each other, having fun together.
(26:22):
And suddenly he was gone.
21st of December, 1989, Rotimiq.
Rotimi Fanny Coyote, Dead at 34. It sent ripples throughout the queer and not just queer art world.
And I remember thinking one of his biggest splashes was a half-page illustrated
(26:43):
obituary in a broadsheet newspaper.
It was just so weird and ironic that, you know, that biggest splash at that time was the thing.
He's gone on to have an amazing 30 odd
year posthumous career all kinds of books written about him
exhibitions and i've been a little kind of
(27:03):
micro industry myself giving lots of talks about him being invited on radio
and all kinds of things to talk about him and as recently as this year at queer
britain which is the the relatively new queer history museum i was asked to
make and lead a Black History Month event,
which I made all about Rotimi from a very personal point of view,
(27:26):
which is a very moving and rewarding experience,
taking that opportunity to make sure that 30-odd years after he died,
people will not forget his name because he really matters. He still really matters.
My next artist is Francis Bacon, the painter who we've already talked about in a very different way.
It wasn't that I identified with Francis
(27:47):
Bacon, but I was excited by the outrageousness of his life and the bold.
Dark power of his work i
just i just for anybody who doesn't know his work you
know buckle up and dive in there's an awful lot to see a very brave and and
(28:07):
dynamic artist who for me more than delivers on the hype which isn't always
the case with some of the great names and finally we come to the contemporary.
Zanelli Moholy, the stunningly talented, charismatic,
black, queer, I say woman, though I know that now reference to being non-binary,
(28:31):
but when I met them, they were a fierce lesbian photographer.
And here's the funny thing. I'll tell a short story about Zanelli.
Back in 2015, before they were really a big name on the scene,
Autograph, the Association of Black Photographers, had
given Zanelli my contact details because Zanelli wanted to come to my little
(28:54):
studio in London to interview me and photograph me and do a little film clip
about me as one of a series of paying respect to black queer elders.
Well, when I got over the shock and stopped looking over my shoulder to think,
who are they talking about? Oh, me.
You know, I welcomed Zanelli and their assistant into my flat.
(29:18):
And it was really funny. They were so sweet and so kind and so generous.
And I eventually just found some grace and decided to let it happen.
And we had a lovely time together.
But just now, as it happened, they were having trouble with one of their tripods.
And I had by accident bought two tripods that were very similar and I really didn't need one.
(29:41):
And in a moment, I was a bit flush at the time and in a moment of just.
Madness maybe i just said to zanelli well look why there's one here why don't
you use it and why don't you keep it because i have no use for it it's too similar to the one i have.
And we carried on with the shoot and it was done and off they went a few years passed and suddenly,
(30:03):
zanelli's name is popping up in major international spaces winning awards getting
major retrospective shows all over the place.
And then I was commissioned by an Oxford art project to curate an exhibition
of leading women photographers.
And I was given access to a massive database of about 200 people I could choose
(30:26):
from international, you know, high profile photographers.
And there were lots of people I wanted to work with.
And then I thought, if I could get Zanelli, but of course, by this stage,
Zanelli was walking on water and floating in the heavens.
And the organization had tried to reach Zanelli and not getting anywhere.
And I thought, how low can I go?
(30:48):
I got Zanelli's email address and wrote a really smarmy email.
First of all, starting with a congratulatory message about the huge success
since we'd met in my humble little studio and hoping that the tripod was still working.
Oh, and by the way, I'm curating an exhibition.
(31:08):
Would you consider honoring us with
access to say a dozen of your images it would
make the world a difference to the credibility of our project i
held my breath pressed send and to
my delighted amazement zanelli came straight back to me and was just so generous
in making images available and the organizers of the art festival in oxford
(31:32):
thought i was somebody if i could get zanelli lovely little postscript to this
tale after that very happy outcome.
Earlier this year, I was in Paris on holiday.
Now, we have to remember, Zanelli lives in South Africa, near Johannesburg.
I'm walking down a street in Paris.
(31:53):
And who is walking up the street but Zanelli?
If you think of the likelihood that
you're going to be bumping into this international star on the afternoon,
in the hour, in the minute it when you're turning a corner to walk down whatever
it was avenue and there is an ellie walking the other direction we just shrieked
(32:14):
grabbed each other and i don't know what people around us thought was going
on but it was such an exciting moment and such a wild coincidence it was just a magical moment.
I should say, I've said all this about the person. What I haven't said is enough about Zanelli's work.
The work that I'm most familiar with, although Zanelli celebrates all kinds
(32:36):
of aspects of the Black queer experience and beyond,
I was particularly interested in Zanelli's self-portraits, a kind of self-portrait
where basically exploring all kinds of archetypal and not so archetypal queer
identities, but with brilliant,
brilliant art direction and use of various kinds of props and unusual textures
(32:59):
and items and atmospheres to generate this endless set of possibilities of identity.
I just love the work. And I was so proud last year to go to Tate Britain and
walk walk around a major international gallery and see the walls packed with this artist's work.
(33:22):
It just made me so pleased and so proud.
What memories or flashbacks do these, this selection bring back for you?
Is there sort of like other memories that are related to these collections?
Oh, of course. As I said at the top of the programme, I am.
(33:43):
I chose these because they're about things that have a contemporary resonance,
even if some of them reach back a long way.
If I tried to do my life story, we'd need hours, and it would probably be quite tedious.
But going back to the songs, when I choose one song, right at the beginning
of my discovering Stevie Wonder, before he became mega, mega, mega,
(34:05):
what is always going to be there for me is there would never be enough time
to cover all the things I appreciate about Stevie Wonder's music and his life.
And it was interesting during the lockdown, my partner and I had a lot more
time to be on our own relaxing.
And we decided informally that we would just dive into my collection of Stevie
(34:30):
CDs from the early days right through to the latest that I own.
And what was so rewarding and rich was just hearing them again.
Re-appreciating the writing the singing the production values that there was
always this thing with stevie wonder the music press were quite side eye about
(34:51):
the time it took for him to turn out his albums and the delays in actually getting
the things out but when you heard those those albums, you understood why.
This is again, excellence, excellence.
And the impact that that man has had on the music scene throughout all kinds
of genres and different kinds of characters, he's a colossus and he's the backdrop
(35:13):
to all of my formative years.
And when I think about Chaka Khan, it's not just that she can sing so well and
she can make it so witty and carnal and fun, fun, but that she's so smart.
What I've always enjoyed about her, yeah, she can wail, but you know,
there's an intelligence in there. She knows what she's doing. It's the control.
(35:37):
Ah, fantastic. And I probably said enough about David McCalmont and the joy
of working with him and his inestimable talent, but it's one of the thrills
of my life to have worked closely with a friend and feel closer to that friend afterwards.
Cause they, they always say don't work with animals and children and whatever
else, but also that there's a one in brackets, don't work with your friends
(35:59):
if you want to keep them. Well, we got away with it.
We got away with it. We had a a good time as to
the books as books with any good
book they're things that i usually want to
return to because i'll keep finding new
things in them either because i missed them the
first or third or second or third time or because i've changed my perspective
(36:21):
brings a different way of cultivating what's there uh the films i've probably
said enough about the films though So it's weird to be still discovering so
much about a film that I was part of the production of.
That is quite funny.
And Zanelli, well, still young enough to have a massive career ahead of them.
(36:44):
And I hope, well, I'm looking, I hope I can be around.
I hope I can get to South Africa, because I've been invited.
They've invited me very generously. It's a question of getting things sorted
out to get out there and maybe make some kind of contribution. We'll see.
How important do you think these conversations are in collecting or archiving
(37:05):
some of our voices in our own words?
I think what you're doing with this lovely project is absolutely rich and powerful
and positive in what it makes possible.
I've listened to some of the other contributors and apart from leaving me slightly
intimidated, like, what have I got to say? But it's just lovely to hear living histories.
(37:30):
I will, if you'll forgive me, mention a little bit more about Queer Britain,
which is a charity that was the seed of an idea back in 2017-18.
And it's already in its first building and doing a lot of work with not just
exhibitions of things about famous people.
That one of the core aspects of the mission of Queer Britain is to democratise
(37:52):
and enrich our idea of what history is.
And it's about the first person testimonies of people who were there,
not just on screens or in famous books or in fabulous galleries,
but living complicated and fascinating lives.
And when you ask people questions and people answer them, you know,
There's so much to learn and so much to appreciate.
(38:15):
So you're doing in this project an aspect of what we're trying to do at Queer
Britain. So I'm there for it. I'm a fan. Thank you.
We kind of answered the next question, which is hopes and dreams.
Hopes and dreams. Well, hopes and dreams, I suppose, coming back to the very personal.
And I've not really said this in public before. At 65, I'm realizing the energies
(38:40):
that I have for certain things are more refined now.
I don't need to show up and be there and be seen.
It's much more about the quality of the experience and why I'd be using my time
doing one thing rather than another. other.
And so I think my relationship with photography is evolving.
I still love it, but I think I want to evolve in a circular way back to the
(39:05):
place where when I pick up a camera, it's for pure pleasure.
It's not running after the money
or it's not running after trying to be famous or have somebody see it.
It's because the person or the subject or the situation or the possibilities
for collaboration really pull me. That's why I'd be there.
And I've noticed particularly
(39:25):
in the last four or five years I am just
getting more and more caught up with not only
buying lots of jewelry but making jewelry being more adventurous in what I wear
and getting into I've even taken a basic garment construction course at Morley
College just before the lockdown and I'm enjoying just getting involved in other
(39:46):
kinds of creativity and also So I guess my social network is changing.
I'm just finding myself drawn to places that are not the usual for me.
So I'm just hoping I'm granted enough sanity and energy to have a few years
exploring these new terrains. But the camera will always be there.
(40:06):
It'll just be a different relationship to it. This has been magnificent.
And with the magnificent Robert Taylor, need I say, that was our Q list.
I suggest everybody follow the links and find out as much as you can about robert
taylor that was amazing thank you for taking the time to have this conversation
(40:26):
and talking to us about your q list,
thank you for listening to the q list can be found on www.samesamebutblack.co.nz
ig facebook and all other social media platforms.
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