Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Beth Brown (00:10):
Welcome to Q&A with
Dr. K, a podcast by Mountain
Pacific Quality Health, where wesit down with Dr. Doug
Kuntzweiler and get your healthquestions answered. Because on
Q&A with Dr. K, the doctor isalways in.
(00:35):
Hello, everyone, this is BethBrown, your host, and I'm here
as always with our very goodfriend, Dr. Kuntzweiler.
Dr. Doug Kuntzweiler (00:39):
Hello.
Beth Brown (00:41):
Hi. Today's patient
question comes from someone I
happened to be talking with whowanted to ask about hospice care
and really understanding whathospice is about, specifically,
when do you decide it's time forhospice, and then understanding
what Medicare will cover andwon't cover. So this person had
a loved one in hospice, and theywere confused about being told
(01:01):
that they couldn't go to theemergency room, or get certain
care that this loved one wantedor thought they needed, because
it was quote outside of hospicecare. So Dr. K, you've had
experience caring for hospicepatients, right, in your long
career. So did you get thesekinds of questions from folks
when you cared for them?
Dr. Doug Kuntzweiler (01:22):
Sure, and
hospice is sort of nebulous. And
I think most people don't have areally good idea of, of what it
is. But it basically startedbecoming popular, I think,
around the 1970s. And it's justend of life care. And so if you
have a person who has a fatalillness, and they decide that
(01:49):
they are tired of treating it,tired and fighting it, you can
still have care under hospiceand hospice treats, you know,
whatever symptoms you have, andhelps you stay socialized and
helps the family take care ofthe patient, it can address your
spiritual concerns, every aspectof end of life care is covered
(02:11):
by hospice. And when we thinkabout well, who delivers this?
Well, there are nonprofithospice associations, there are
for-profit hospice associations,you have to look around in your
community and see what'savailable. But it can be
delivered in the hospital, itcan be delivered in a nursing
home, it can be delivered in thepatient's own home.
Beth Brown (02:33):
And that was my
mom's experience. We did hospice
in the hospital, which I thinkit maybe can be trickier there
or not, I'm not sure. But whenwe talk about this patient's
question of what care you canget and what care you can't get,
what does that mean?
Dr. Doug Kuntzweiler (02:49):
I think
people get confused, because
they feel like if the doctorsays you've only got six months
to live, and we're gonna put youon hospice, then you have to
stay at home, and you don't haveany medication or any active
treatment. And that's, that'snot true. Medicare, you can
always call and see what what isMedicare is going to pay for
them, they often will pay for itin home care, or some skilled
(03:13):
nursing care in home, ornon-skilled help in the home,
they will pay for medications.
Now, sometimes you will get intosituations where if it's an
active, say cancer treatment,they may say, well, that's
really not what hospice isabout. And so they may not pay
for that. But they're alwaysopen to discussion, actually.
(03:34):
And you can talk about what theywill be willing and what they
won't pay for, but in general,they will pay for everything
except active treatment that isaimed at extending someone's
life. And sometimes there aregray areas and your primary
caregiver can sometimes convinceMedicare or whoever is paying
for it to cover things that aremaybe in a little bit of a gray
(03:58):
area. And you can get other careif you need to go to the
emergency room, that hospicedoesn't stop at at your door,
they can cover emergency stuff,especially if it has to do with
comfort.
Beth Brown (04:12):
Yeah, that's great.
And I think the biggest messagethere is if you don't
understand, ask questions.
Dr. Doug Kuntzweiler (04:17):
Yeah,
absolutely. And your primary
caregivers should know somethingabout it. But there are also
other resources. You can you cancall any hospice providers in
your community. And the otherthing that people I think get
confused about is, once you'reon hospice, you don't have to
stay on it. If you decide thatthere's a new development and
(04:39):
you feel like maybe you want tostart doing some more active
treatment, again, you can alwaysgo off of hospice. And to start
on it your physician or yourprovider usually certifies that
you have a condition that islikely to be fatal within the
next six months. And so peoplethink, well, six months is what
I have to go back on activetreatment. No, your doctor just
(05:01):
has to certify again that, youknow, we expected that that
would be six months, but youknow, they're still alive. And
we expect that sometime withinthe next six months, then they
will die. So it's it's fairlyfluid, but you have to talk to
people and don't hesitate to askquestions.
Beth Brown (05:20):
People probably hear
the term hospice, they hear
palliative care, they hearcomfort care, what's the
differences between those or arethey all kind of the same?
Dr. Doug Kuntzweiler (05:29):
They're
all similar. Palliative care is
is strictly treating symptoms tomake people as comfortable as
possible. Hospice is reallybroader than that. And it
doesn't mean if you have otherchronic conditions, you don't
stop treating those underhospice. You can still treat
your high blood pressure, youcan still treat your diabetes,
(05:50):
chronic lung disease, you canstill be on oxygen and do
breathing treatments, and all ofthat. Palliative care
specifically addresses the veryend of life care and keeping
people comfortable.
Beth Brown (06:04):
Let's talk about
caregivers. You've mentioned all
the different settings wherepeople might be able to get
hospice, but a lot of people doget that care in their homes,
and they have family or peoplewho love them around them. What
should they know?
Dr. Doug Kuntzweiler (06:17):
Well, they
should know that it really
shouldn't be a team effort,taking care of somebody who's
dying in your home is it's amonumental task. And people
shouldn't be attempting to dothat alone. So you know, you
should put together a team offamily members of friends,
volunteers, and then the hospiceteam can come in and advise you
(06:42):
as to what other resources thereare. If you are going to be the
primary caregiver, you reallyneed some respite and there are
respite services availablethrough hospice so that you can
get away because it's, it takesa real toll on you physically
and mentally and spiritually.
Beth Brown (06:57):
Yeah, that is so
important. And people tend to
neglect doing that, becausethey're more worried about the
person who's sick than aboutthemselves.
Dr. Doug Kuntzweiler (07:04):
If you
wear yourself out, then you
can't be any good to anybodyelse. So really, it takes a
team. And that's how you shouldthink about it. What are my
resources, who I know that Itrust that can help and then put
that together? And that's areason to talk about hospitals
earlier, so that you can dothat. Most people are pleased
(07:24):
with their hospice experience,but they almost universally say
we wish we had done this sooner.
Beth Brown (07:30):
So you mentioned the
breathing treatment, for
example, for someone who has achronic lung disease. Are there
certain medications people canor cannot take once they've gone
Dr. Doug Kuntzweiler (07:39):
Well, I
talked about that a little bit
on hospice?
before, not so much. There aresome things that are very
specific, like cancer treatmentdrugs that hospice shies away
from because their goal is toprolong life. And hospice is
really not about so muchprolonging life, it's about
making life better in the finalstages. So there are some drugs
(08:02):
that are that are designed justto prolong life and those who
might not continue, treatmentslike radiation treatments, you
might not necessarily but again,there's gray areas if the
radiation is for comfort, sothat you can swallow better or
Beth Brown (08:16):
Okay, that makes
sense. Okay, so basically, you
that kind of thing.
need to stop treating theillness, and you're just trying
to help the person becomfortable, anything that
treats the illness. That's whatyou cross out, right? Okay,
perfect. So morphine, and thosekind of painkiller drugs, how do
they come into play that theydon't do anything to treat, they
(08:38):
just make the personcomfortable?
Dr. Doug Kuntzweiler (08:39):
Right.
That's part of the paliativecare, whatever it takes to make
people more comfortable. Andsometimes that can look like
active treatment. I mean, thereare drugs that we think of as
active treatment drugs, youknow, and sometimes the patients
themselves, negotiate this, youknow, I had a hospice patient
who had severe rheumatoidarthritis and was just tired of
(09:00):
being in pain all the time. Andshe got pneumonia and hospice
were paid to treat thepneumonia, because dying of
pneumonia is uncomfortable andnot very pleasant. And she
refused. She said, No. So wedidn't treat it, we could have
but we didn't, because that washer wish. Nothing is really
written in stone when you'retalking about hospice. Some
(09:20):
things can be negotiated. Andsome things that you would think
maybe wouldn't be paid for canbe paid for.
Beth Brown (09:27):
Talking about
morphine. Specifically, I know
that some people are worried orhave read, and I think it is
partially true, but I just wantyour expertise on this, that
morphine can expedite the dyingprocess.
Dr. Doug Kuntzweiler (09:40):
Yeah, but
that's usually very, at the very
end, morphine tends to depressyour respiratory drive. And so
if you give people enoughmorphine, they stop breathing,
and that's how people die ofoverdoses as they just stopped
breathing. But for people whosay have cancer they have you
know, severe pain, people'stolerance for morphine goes up
(10:03):
pretty quickly and you wind up,you know, escalating the doses
just to keep them comfortable.
The worry about well, I'mbasically killing them is that's
not really what happens.
Beth Brown (10:14):
Okay, good, because
I do think that can be a
person's concern. They wanttheir loved one to be
comfortable, but they also wantto make sure it's happening
naturally.
Dr. Doug Kuntzweiler (10:21):
It's
possible with the narcotic
medications we have today, it'spossible to titrate things very
carefully and keep themcomfortable and you're not
necessarily ending their lives.
Beth Brown (10:32):
Okay, good. That's
probably a relief for a lot of
folks. So you talked about if wetalked about, too, if you have
questions, ask them. Whatquestions should you ask for
people who are sort of in thatnumb, like, I hear what you're
saying, but I don't know what Ishould be doing? What are some
questions that you can give themthat they can have in their back
pocket?
Dr. Doug Kuntzweiler (10:49):
Well, I
think the first thing is to talk
to the patient and say, How doyou feel about this? Are you
ready to kind of stop strugglingwith active treatment, and just
think about maximizing the timeyou have left, making that as
pleasant as possible, becauseonce they make that decision,
then it's just a matter of, as Isaid, getting your team
(11:10):
together, talking to your localhospice, seeing what services
they have available? Well, Ikind of neglected to mention the
VA also has hospice services. Soif you have a veteran who has a
terminal illness and is gettingtired of fighting it, you should
talk to the VA because they canprovide respite services, and
they can provide hospiceservices.
Beth Brown (11:32):
And you can talk
about a care plan with the
hospice team as well, right?
Dr. Doug Kuntzweiler (11:36):
Right,
absolutely. That's what they
will do. You know, and they areused to doing this. So they will
see what resources you have. Andthey will advise you what
resources the hospice has, andtogether and and with the
patient, you will come up with aplan of what you're going to do.
And it makes people feel a lotbetter. If you know you've
(11:57):
you've thought it out ahead oftime and have a plan, you know,
if you need to go to thehospital at the end, because
it's just too difficult to keepthem comfortable at home
anymore. That's totallyappropriate. And that's covered.
So just knowing ahead of timewhat the plan is how things are
going to go is a big relief.
I've seen so many people wherethey didn't go through this and
(12:17):
push came to shove and thepatient was dying. You know,
they come rushing into the ERand that's a chaotic scene. And
it's not good for anybody,particularly the patient, but
not good for the family either.
So talking about it early ongetting a plan, everything is
much better.
Beth Brown (12:36):
So we talked about
respite care. What about once
the person has passed, becauseobviously that's what we're
preparing for here. But griefand kind of dealing with that
death.
Dr. Doug Kuntzweiler (12:46):
Yeah, most
hospices incorporate some,
either psychologists or clergythat are trained in grief
counseling, and that's that's apart of hospice is helping the
family grieve. And, again,planning for that ahead of time
also provides quite a bit ofrelief.
Beth Brown (13:07):
Hopefully we've
covered everything that the
person asked about, but just incase somebody needs more
information, as always, let'send with some great resources
for folks.
Dr. Doug Kuntzweiler (13:16):
Well, it
turns out, there's a national
hospice and palliative careOrganization. So that's where I
would go first. And then I wouldtalk to there may be more than
one hospice available in yourcommunity. So I'd go and talk to
them. And most hospices areaffiliated with a physician,
often as a primary carephysician. Those people are very
(13:36):
knowledgeable. So even if that'snot, you know, your loved one's
primary caregiver, they will beinvolved with with the hospice
association, so it's good totalk to them and see what they
recommend.
Beth Brown (13:48):
Everybody's
different. So sometimes just
talking about this specificsituation is your best bet.
Yeah. All right, perfect. But wewill put those resources at the
bottom of our episode for folkswho would like to learn more
about hospice or understandinghospice care. And thank you, Dr.
K. Thank you. All right. Andthank you for listening. And if
you have a question for Dr. K,please email us at
(14:09):
QandAwithDrK@mpqhf.org. And thatemail address will be with this
episode as well. Please email usyour questions. The doctor is
always in.