May 8, 2024 • 51 mins
Queer for Cities' inaugural episode, hosted by Joshua Croke, delves into the significance of creating inclusive, equitable, and joyful urban spaces for queer and trans folks. Josh introduces the show's mission to advocate for queer urbanism as a means to improve cities for everyone. The podcast highlights the challenges that marginalized groups, especially queer and trans folks, face in urban settings, emphasizing the importance of intentional design in making cities more inclusive. It also touches on the intersectionality of various marginalized identities and the compounded effects of discrimination. The episode features guests MG Xiong and Taj Smith, who discuss their personal journeys and the broader significance of visibility, belonging, and connection for queer and trans people. Additionally, the show explores the intersections of queer identity with religious beliefs, the importance of affirming spaces, and the potential of science fiction in imagining inclusive futures. Tune in next week for part 2!
00:00 Welcome to Queer for Cities: Unveiling the Vision
00:27 Introducing Joshua Croke: Queer Urbanist
00:55 The Mission: Building Inclusive Cities for All
02:12 Why Language Matters: Embracing Queer and Trans Identities
03:35 Setting the Stage: Values and Goals for Our Community
07:26 Acknowledging the Land and Its People
12:19 Exploring Queer Urban Life: Guests Share Their Stories
24:52 Navigating Family and Religion as Queer Individuals
37:14 Imagining Trans Futures in Religion and Beyond
44:05 Poetry and Hope: Envisioning a World That Values Life
You can listen to Queer For Cities loud and queer wherever you get your podcasts and on WICN 90.5 FM, Worcester’s only NPR affiliate station. Tune in on Wednesdays at 6 PM and Sundays at 11 PM and find us at QueerForCities.com. Queer For Cities is created and hosted by Joshua Croke. Our Assistant Producer is Jack Tripp. Our Audio Engineer & Music Producer is Giuliano D’Orazio.
Buy Merch! Join us on Patreon!
Creative Reaction Lab
The Trans Community of New England / First Event
Massachusetts Transgender Political Coalition
Queer For Cities is about life at the intersections and designing equity-centered, liberated communities where LGBTQ+ folx thrive. Follow us @QueerForCities and QueerForCities.com. Hosted by Joshua Croke. #QueerForCities
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Taj Smith (00:00):
The questions that you have right now about your
life
MG Xiong (00:04):
matter.
I've always felt, like, wherethere is no hope or vision of
the future, it is incumbent uponus to invent it, and to invent
that future.
Joshua Croke (00:18):
Hello, hello, hello! This is Queer for Cities
very first episode, and I am soexcited to be finally sharing
this project with the world.
I'm Joshua Kroak, I'm thecreator of this show, supported
by Jack Tripp and GiulianaD'Orazio, and I will be your
host.
I'm a queer and non binarydesigner, artist, and
facilitator working at theintersections of community
(00:39):
justice, urban development, andcreative placemaking with a
passion for cultivatingequitable and just communities.
Shorthand, I'm a queer urbanist,and I'm out to make queer a
joyful norm.
Our thesis for this show is,when we build more queer
inclusive cities We build bettercities for everyone.
(01:02):
The way that our cities aredesigned is intentional.
But the impact of that designhas caused a lot of unintended,
and very intended, harm topeople.
And so often the design ofcities excludes and doesn't
center folks at the margins.
BIPOC, 2SLGBTQIA disabled,elders, the list goes on.
And a lot of us queer folk havea really challenging
(01:24):
relationship with place,especially the places and spaces
that we grew up in that weren'tsupportive of us.
So many of us moved to the citynearby or a city far away.
The city has been a place ofrelative refuge for many queer
and trans folks throughout time,and that's part of why we're
doing this show.
Queer for Cities is a podcastand radio show about life at the
(01:47):
intersections of identity andplace, and designing equity
centered, liberated communitieswhere 2SLGBTQIA plus folks
thrive.
If you're listening to this anddon't identify as queer or
trans, I also hope you'll becomea dedicated listener of our
show.
We need strong allies in thiswork, and if you're not sure if
you're an ally or are curious toexpand your field of vision
(02:09):
around these issues, we'd lovefor you to stay here.
I'm often going to say queer andtrans instead of the longer
acronym.
I do that for a few reasons.
One, as someone who talks aboutissues faced by the 2SLGBTQIA
plus community all the time, itis a lot to repeat over and over
again.
Queer is a term that a lot ofpeople, especially our youth,
have reclaimed as a broaderumbrella for many of the
(02:31):
identities held under thisrainbow of ours.
It was the inspiration of youngqueer and trans youth that I
work with that I reclaimed thisword for myself, which was one
that was used harmfully andderogatorily when I was a young
person.
And I know there are a lot ofpeople that have harm histories
associated with that term, so Iwant to be respectful and also
(02:53):
follow the lead of our youth whoare finding power in reclaiming
terms that have been usedagainst us.
I say queer and transspecifically because of the
critical centering we need to doin all justice work around trans
lives.
Because even in LGB plus spaces,trans and non binary folks are
often diminished, erased, andnot included.
So our experiences and ourchallenges need to be front and
(03:15):
center in all justice work.
And for us non binary folks whohave faced a non binary imposter
syndrome, which I'm borrowingfrom a guest who we have on
later this season, LaurenMcNair, we are included under
that trans umbrella.
And all of our nuance anddifference in how we hold this
for ourselves is valid.
(03:35):
I'm really excited to introduceyou to our first guests, MG
Xiong and Taj Smith in a minute,but this is our first episode,
so I need to establish somedriving values and other
considerations on what this showhopes to be.
I'm a facilitator, so I oftenwork with groups to establish
shared agreements and valuesthat help guide our work
together and help folks agree onhow to hold space with each
(03:58):
other most effectively,especially when navigating
challenging conversations anddisagreements.
And because urban design,community and economic
development, these other relatedterms and industries are often
seen as gentrifying andaggressive.
exclusionary practices, which iscompletely justified because
that is often the case.
Also a reason we are making thisshow.
(04:20):
I want you to hear some thingsupfront that are driving beliefs
of mine that influence how I amgoing to engage in this work and
how we're going to create thisspace.
With you on Queer for Cities.
You'll hear me use the termintersectionality a lot.
If you happen to be new to theterm or have heard it, but
haven't really absorbed it.
It was coined by KimberlyCrenshaw in the nineties and
(04:43):
added to the Merriam Websterdictionary with the definition,
the complex cumulative way.
In which the effects of multipleforms of discrimination, such as
racism, sexism, and classismcombine, overlap, or intersect,
especially in the experiences ofmarginalized individuals or
groups.
So holding multiple marginalizedidentities like being queer and
(05:05):
black and disabled, for example,has a compounding effect on how
someone experiences the currentstate of our biased world.
And I'm speaking from a USperspective specifically on this
show.
The author, feminist, and civilrights activist, Audrey Lorde,
an incredible black lesbianwoman, by the way, pointed out
that we do not live single issuelives.
(05:26):
When I speak on issues ofequity, justice, and community,
I often point out the importanceof nuance, and a recognition
that there are layers, andoverlaps, and bleeds, and
parallels in almost everything.
And we need to strive to holdonto that.
all of those things at once aswe work together to build truly
equitable solutions to our mostpressing challenges.
You can't talk about healthequity without addressing the
(05:48):
right to housing.
For example, on equity, I placeequity at the center of all of
my work.
It's a much more frequentlyheard term nowadays than in
years past for many people.
So folks hold variousdefinitions and understandings
of equity.
So for our, um, I guess glossaryof shared definitions.
(06:10):
I want to put forward thatequity is discussed as both an
outcome or goal as well as anaction.
The creative reaction lab, whichis based out of St.
Louis, Missouri defines equityas an outcome saying when
outcomes are not predictablebased on someone's identities or
characteristics, for example,race, sexual orientation, gender
(06:30):
identity, ability, et cetera.
Facing History and Ourselves,which is an organization using
lessons of history to challengeteachers and their students to
stand up to bigotry and hate,defines equity in action, saying
equity examines and adjustsstructures, processes, and norms
that distribute power andresources across a community to
(06:52):
allow and encourage eachindividual to develop fully.
A community committed to equityis one whose members
continuously examine the rolethat power plays.
Privilege and positionality playboth in either maintaining or
mitigating historical andpresent day inequities.
We're going to talk about andshare examples of equity
(07:13):
centered work in this show.
So if you're like, um, don'tworry, this is a reason we're
here.
And if you're listening and arelike, yep, this is my jam, I'm
deeply involved in this work.
We're going deeper too.
Queer for Cities is produced inWorcester, Massachusetts, which
is the ancestral lands of theNipmuc people.
The Nipmuc Nation is still onthis land.
(07:35):
Their constitution was ratifiedby the citizens of Nipmuc Nation
in 2003, and their mission is topreserve and promote the
culture, language, and values ofthe Nipmuc people while striving
to improve the quality of lifefor all their citizens.
I think it's important to make aland acknowledgment and
recognize.
The legacy of harm and howcolonialism has shaped the
(07:57):
spaces and the places that weexist in and acknowledging that
we are unceded ground iscritical in moving and advancing
towards a more equitable, just,and liberated future.
Our discussions will also touchon other New England cities, um,
so I want to uplift the uncededlands of the Agawam, Poconoque,
(08:19):
and Pueblo.
Mohican, Wampanoag, Mohegan,Nonotuck, Pecumtuck, Pentucket,
Penacook, Wabanaki, Abenaki,Narragansett, Pequot, and other
indigenous peoples.
I also want to name andrecognize the erasure of and
misinformation around indigenouspeoples and the land history
(08:39):
that uh, I received during myeducation in Central
Massachusetts, and I amcommitted to continually re
educating myself andhighlighting Indigenous
perspectives on our show as wediscuss urbanism, displacement,
and more, particularly from twospirit and queer Indigenous
people.
On Queer for Cities, we focus onthe American context of urban
(09:00):
development and communityjustice, and how queer and trans
folks have and are navigatingthese spaces.
Every day, our lives are touchedby the pervasive legacy of
colonialism.
So I want to also acknowledgethe forced labor that built the
wealth and infrastructure ofthis country.
Black people built America.
(09:20):
Full stop.
We need to look at the brutalhistory of slavery and its
modern manifestations tounderstand where we are today,
especially when we're talkingabout city building and
community growth.
So I want to make that land andlabor acknowledgement as a
foundation for how we're goingto move into conversations about
urban design, development,community.
(09:42):
I also want to share adefinition of how I define
community, because that can be abit of an amorphous term.
So I've defined community aspeople connected by common
purpose, passion, place, orculture.
Communities are intersectional,diverse entities that evolve and
(10:02):
change.
You are in community with theneighborhood that you exist in.
Maybe even if you don't see orknow your neighbors, you are in
community with other queer andtrans people.
You are in community with peoplethat, um, love the sport that
you are passionate about.
So community is something thatwe are involved in in many
(10:23):
different manifestations of andintersections of.
Okay.
Okay.
I promise we are going to getinto our episode.
And by episode, I mean to ouramazing guests, I have a
penchant for going pretty deepanytime I'm like meeting a new
group of people or building aspace for nuanced and layered
discussions.
And this is very much a newspace and I hope you will
(10:44):
continue to embark on thisjourney with me.
I hope this wasn't too long of astage setting foundation
building piece of our firstepisode.
In our debut season of Queer forCities, very exciting, we are
exploring what makes a city notjust livable, but a truly
affirming and joyful place forqueer and trans folks.
(11:05):
We're diving into the heart ofqueer urban life, from community
health, to the club, andeverything in between.
We're bringing together voicesfrom across the spectrum, from
queer artists and agitators toarchitects, urban planners, and
activists, to share theirstories, challenges, and
triumphs in creating inclusivespaces and equitable cities.
(11:26):
I firmly believe that when webuild a queer inclusive cities,
we build better cities foreveryone.
My mission and my charge to allof you listeners is to make
queer a joyful norm.
And when I say norm, I mean theimagined reality that we can
exist as the truest version ofourselves safely.
We'll always keep it weird anddifferent, and that's what I
(11:49):
want normal to mean.
That we transform to embracediversity and difference as the
norm.
Now we're done.
Let's dive in.
You're listening to queer forcities, wherever you get your
podcasts and on WIC and 90.
5 FM Worcester's only NPRaffiliate station tune in on
Wednesdays at 6 PM and Sundaysat 11 PM and find us at queer
(12:12):
for cities.
com.
MG Xiong (12:19):
I'm MG Xiong, I use they, them, theirs pronouns, and
I'm Hmong, transmasculine, andnonbinary.
I'm originally from Anchorage,Alaska, actually, and I now live
in Medford with my sweet babycat Meatball.
Many folks that I meet with, um,This is, I'm the first trans
person I'm meeting.
This is their first exposure toreally talking about gender as
(12:42):
an expansive experience.
Joshua Croke (12:44):
It still surprises me that in 2024, I continue to
meet people who feel they havenever met a trans person.
But this is the power of erasurefolks, and we're talking about
all the censorship.
book banning an effort to erasequeer and trans folks later in
the season, for sure.
But MG raises a question thatwe've had to consider for
generations in efforts to buildmore accepting and inclusive
(13:07):
spaces for us.
MG Xiong (13:09):
How do I introduce people to?
Trans experience in a way thatis meaningful and also
accessible.
Joshua Croke (13:16):
We're going to hear more from MG in a bit, but
our other guest today, TajSmith, illuminates this further.
Taj Smith (13:23):
70 percent of Americans say that they've never
met a trans person, and I'mlike, well, if you're a part of
that 70%, hi, hello, my name isTaj.
Joshua Croke (13:30):
I met Taj and MG at First Event in January 2024,
which is actually where werecorded these interviews.
First Event is hosted by TransCommunity of New England, also
known as TCNE, and is one of thelongest running conferences in
the U.
S.
for trans and gender expansivepeople.
Taj Smith (13:47):
I am a black transgender man, originally from
California, around the Bay Area.
My background is in ministry andtrans theology, queer theology,
and figuring out what queerfutures look like in religious
spaces, and have since broadenedthat work to figure out what
queer futures look like ingeneral.
Joshua Croke (14:10):
As a black transgender Christian, Taj's
work explores faith,spirituality, liberation, and
queer theology andintersectional politics.
He holds a master's of divinityfrom Harvard Divinity School and
has a creative passion for musicand literature, particularly
science fiction.
Taj Smith (14:27):
I came into this religious awakening and also
came into my gender identity atthe same time and realized that,
like, the call that I felt, thepull that I felt wasn't
necessarily towards activism,though that's a huge part of it,
it's also towards nurturing andjust caring for the spirits of
(14:47):
people who are trying to changethe world and make it a more
equitable place, make it a placewhere people have access to what
they need to survive and whatthey need to thrive.
Joshua Croke (15:01):
I asked Taj about his experience with place and
how that helped or hurt hisjourney to stepping more fully
into his authentic self.
Taj Smith (15:10):
Place has been crucial to all of it.
I think being the person that Iwas, where I grew up.
Like, I grew up in Vacaville,California.
It's the midpoint between SanFrancisco and Sacramento.
And it is Everyone thinks ofCalifornia as this, like, blue
block.
But, you know, the furtherinland you go, the more
(15:32):
conservative it gets.
And being there with my mom, whowas a single mom, and being one
of the few, like, Black familiesthat we knew of, and, you know,
hearing my mom, like, talkabout.
Like black power and like beingpart of some of the more like
radical or at least holding someof the more radical ideologies
(15:55):
that were like around the bayarea at the time that she was
growing up.
It kind of positioned me inopposition to so many of the
people that I was with and solike I kind of formed this
identity based on what I wasnot.
And when I got to college andreally started to meet other
like queer and trans folks andfelt like I had some, some
(16:19):
place, like some sort of likegrounding, some place where I
belonged, I started to thinkabout like, okay, well, what
does it mean to actually belongto something?
Joshua Croke (16:29):
I'm sure this question is not foreign to so
many of us, queer, trans, andnot even identifying as queer
and trans, is like, what doesbelonging feel like?
We know, I think, what thatfeeling doesn't feel like, or
when we don't feel like webelong, you can kind of feel
that crawling sensation in yourbody, or you start to close
(16:53):
yourself off, or are more hyper.
aware of your environment andyour surroundings because of
some fear that something mayhappen.
We're going to explore this moreabout how place is shaped and
built to sometimes intentionallymake folks feel that way.
(17:14):
And I really want to explorewhat does belonging feel like in
a city and in a community?
What makes you feel like you'vestepped into a place that you
are going to be welcome?
What does the environment looklike?
Who's there?
How is it designed?
What drew you in and brought youinto that?
(17:34):
I think You know, I'm reflectingon the feelings of not feeling
belonging at home.
Growing up necessarily and not,not feeling safe on the street
or in public, um, as visiblyqueer folks and really looking
at how do we navigate tounderstanding of what feels good
(17:57):
for us.
And Taj talked a little bitabout this in our interview.
Taj Smith (18:01):
I live in a house up in Lawrence now, and I know some
of my neighbors.
I don't know all of them.
I don't know how my neighborsfeel about queer and trans
people.
I haven't asked, and that's notpolite, quote unquote, polite
conversation, you know?
So, I feel like there's just somuch disconnect in the way that
(18:25):
we live now, and a lot of theseplaces where It seems like there
aren't any resources.
I feel like people just needmore connection.
And to know that, like, peoplethemselves are a resource.
And, like, the way that people,the ways that people live,
people's lives are a resource,especially to younger folks who
(18:46):
are coming out.
Like, I think about, like, likemyself being, uh, a 37 trans
elder in a lot of ways and howStrange that feels for me
because I you know want to thinkthat I'm still like, you know
young and spry but at the sametime like Knowing that there are
kids who see me and they go wowa real trans adult Like yeah
(19:11):
Hello And how if they just hadthat connection to somebody in
their community, or somebodythat's more accessible to where
they are right now, theywouldn't feel so lonely.
Joshua Croke (19:26):
There's a few things that I want to unpack in
what Taj just said there.
The quote unquote politeconversation resonated so deeply
with me because of how I havefelt in my own journey that
being too queer, whatever thatmeans, Is in some way, making
(19:50):
other people uncomfortable sothat I should minimize and make
smaller myself in order to makesure that I don't have a
negative interaction withsomeone that I might see in the
stairwell as I walk up.
I live in a three decker inWorcester and you know, I don't
know, similar to Taj, how myneighbors feel about queer and
(20:12):
trans people.
microaggressions or theinteractions that we have with
people that can sometimes feellike, huh, like I'm getting a
weird vibe or a weird read fromthis person.
And I'm not a hundred percentsure what it is.
And I definitely cannot writeoff that it's homophobia or
(20:33):
transphobia.
We're going to talk a little bitmore with Taj about having
difficult conversations.
Mainly with folks in ourfamilies who may not be
supportive of our identities,of, uh, queer and trans kids.
We know a lot of parentsnavigate the challenges of
wanting to be supportive oftheir queer and trans young
(20:55):
people, and they have to fight.
against family.
Maybe it's their parents.
Maybe it's their siblings whoare not showing up in ways that
are supportive and are actuallycontributing to the harm of
these young people gettingaccess to the resources and
support that they need.
And I want to uplift a quotethat always comes to mind when
(21:20):
I'm in sitting in conversationswith folks, um, who may be in
disagreement with the Queertrans conversation, as it were.
James Baldwin, a queer blackman, author, brilliant mind, has
a quote that we can disagree andstill love each other as long as
(21:44):
our disagreement is not rootedin my oppression or right to
exist.
Loneliness is a core feelingthat's connected to depression,
anxiety, substance abuse, It canbe a catalyst for so much harm
(22:06):
and pain and so many queer andtrans folks.
Especially youthdisproportionately face
depression, anxiety, et cetera,because of an exclusion or a
lack of acceptance of who theyare and who they are becoming
and the environments that theyare raised in.
(22:27):
We'll talk later in the seasonabout that.
Really inspecting this conceptof the nuclear family and how
there are so many cultures andfolks that approach family in a
very different way.
Not so much connected to bloodand biology, but to we are here
and we share space together incommunity and this community is
(22:48):
family and we stand up for fightfor support and embrace and love
each other.
And that is something that.
Is I will say by and largelacking in a lot of the
communities in the cities thatpeople live in.
And one of our arguments here onqueer for cities is that that is
(23:09):
by design separation andsegregation is a tool that has
been used to separate peoplebased on on race, based on the
fact that queer and trans folkshave to escape to the nearby
city to find some semblance ofsafety if we're thrown out of
our homes or simply need toescape violence.
(23:33):
And so as we talk about quoteunquote, polite conversation, we
need to recognize that Ourability to exist freely and
openly as ourselves should notbe something that we weigh
against our safety.
I run a queer and trans youthcentered non profit organization
called Love Your Labels that'sbased in central Massachusetts
(23:55):
and here in Worcester.
And we are driven by a statisticthat came out of the Trevor
Project.
That just one person Affirmingadult in the life of a queer and
trans young person reduces theirlikelihood of attempting suicide
by over 40%.
That's just one person saying, Ilove you.
I see you.
You are valuable.
(24:16):
You are worthy.
You are incredible and uniqueand brilliant just as you are.
That statement in and of itselfis life saving.
And so I asked Taj what he wouldshare with any young people who
might be listening to this showright now.
Taj Smith (24:33):
The questions that you have right now about your
life matter, and that regardlessof what anybody else tells you,
like, you should explore them.
And that you're not alone.
There are other people in theworld who are like you, and we
are fighting for you, so thatyou can grow up.
Joshua Croke (24:52):
As Queer for Cities is about creating
inclusive and loving community,the first place that often
starts is at home.
Many of us queer and trans folkshave come from environments that
are not supportive of oursexuality and gender identities.
Taj's talk at first event wascalled When Religion Divides,
and it was about having hardconversations, especially with
(25:14):
folks in our lives who may beagainst queer and trans lives
because of quote unquote.
religious values.
It was particularly gearedtowards parents who are
supportive of their queer andtrans kids, but have people in
the family that are not.
If you're like, whoa, now we'rejumping right into religion in
episode one, buckle up, baby.
So I grew up conservativeBaptist.
(25:37):
I went to church multiple timesa week.
In addition to going to aprivate Baptist church school in
Palmer, Massachusetts.
That environment was not onlyincredibly successful at
sheltering me from diverseperspectives, identities,
cultures, but it also created anenvironment where even without
(25:59):
having to say the thing outloud, I knew that being gay
wasn't for me.
was wrong.
And I didn't even have the wordsto articulate what feeling like
I was different and havingdifferent attraction or feeling
differently in my body.
I didn't even know how toarticulate those things.
And even if I did, I wouldn'tknow who I would have gone to to
(26:22):
talk about them.
I don't consider myself areligious person anymore, but I
know many queer and trans folksin my life that have found
affirming religious spaces thatembrace and accept them, and we
know that inclusion andaffirmation of queer and trans
folks at church Isn't it given,and I want to be clear that this
is not going to be antireligious.
(26:44):
It's actually quite theopposite, especially given Taj's
placement in his work as a faithdriven practitioner.
I've found it can be easier tohave conversations with people
who are anti LGBTQ plus whentheir issue is raised.
with it really comes from asocial and media narrative.
That's like, it's wrong.
(27:04):
And that comes, goes back to alegacy of just not including
queer and trans people, familiesin media and in the stories that
we hear in the history booksthat we read and we will get
there.
But it's easier to haveconversations with folks coming
from that social perspective, asopposed to the argument My God
(27:27):
says this is wrong.
So Taj's talk presented a guidefor holding space for these
conversations as well as when todisengage, which is super valid,
super critical.
If you are listening to this andyou are a young person or you
are someone like me, Many of uswho are navigating difficult
relationships with family thatyou're really trying to hold on
(27:49):
to, but it just continues tobeat you down, disengaging and
disconnecting is a hundredpercent okay.
You are not responsible for theharm that people are causing to
you, even when you love them.
And it's rooted in that care forand desire to hold loving
relationship with people fromyour life.
(28:10):
That is driving you into thoseconversations.
If you're like, I've been doingit for years and I always leave
those conversations feelingdevastated, sad, angry,
frustrated, if it's helpful, I'mgiving you permission to leave
those conversations and separatefrom those relationships for the
(28:31):
time that you need to heal.
Because I've had to do that inmy life.
So Taj said that starting fromcommon ground, communicating
that shared love for your childand concerns for their safety
can begin to form a stablefoundation for some of these
conversations.
Taj Smith (28:48):
It is always just like talking to them, talking to
them multiple times, and to, andstarting, just to get them to
start to question why they holdthe belief, especially when they
see that like, You know, like,queer and trans folks, we're not
out here to hurt anybody.
Like, we're, like I said, wejust want to live our lives in a
(29:10):
way that feels good to us.
And, I think the more thatpeople realize that, the more
that they see, like, oh, Oh,this isn't a threat to my life.
Like, and they can start todeconstruct those ideas and
start to replace them with atleast at the bare minimum, very,
(29:33):
very bare minimum tolerance.
And then from there, once wework, once we work on tolerance,
I'm like, okay, let's get toacceptance and then let's get to
just full on advocacy.
Joshua Croke (29:47):
Taj shared that it takes about seven conversations
to change someone's mind, andthat it's important to set a
goal beforehand when going intothese conversations.
What might advance the longerterm goal of building an
affirming and loving advocatewho isn't there yet?
Part of why I'm starting episodeone with this conversation is to
(30:10):
encourage and remind us thatThat any type of change work
takes time, it takesconversation, and it takes
relationship building that issometimes messy, complicated,
challenging, difficult, anddoesn't always lead to the
outcomes that we want when wewant them.
(30:32):
We also need queer and transissues to be brought front and
center way more, and oftentimesit's us queer and trans folks
who have to do that uplifting.
So if you're an ally that'slistening to this and this
conversation and the otherthings that we talk about on
this show resonate with you, Iwould encourage you to listen to
(30:53):
this and welcome you to bringthese things up in the spaces
that you sit in.
Think about how do we leverageour privilege and our
positionality to talk aboutthese intersectional issues.
And again, this isintersectional justice work.
We cannot talk about trulycreating space and truly
(31:16):
creating equity for BIPOC folks,for disabled folks, for other
folks who experiencemarginalization.
out also centering LGBTQ plusidentity because we exist in
every single other group thatalso exists.
So I've sat in racial equitycentered spaces that have been
(31:38):
explicitly exclusionary of queerand trans conversations.
And That is not furthering thework towards true justice and
liberation, because there arefolks that hold those multiple
identities that are being leftbehind, and they are the people
that are experiencing the mostdisproportionate violence and
oppression in our cities.
Taj Smith (32:00):
I'm not out here with like some hidden agenda.
I want to create conditions inwhich everybody can live the
ways that feel right.
Authentic and good for them.
Joshua Croke (32:11):
Same, Taj.
Literally same.
If you get to that place whereyou need to protect your energy,
you know the conversation isn'tgoing anywhere, or you just
don't have the time or space forit, Taj was actually willing to
share his disengagementstatement with me, which I get
to pass on to all of you, whichhe encourages folks to write
down and have with them forthese types of conversations.
(32:34):
And you can model yours afterTaj's, or create one that feels
authentic and good for you.
Taj Smith (32:40):
I hear your question and instead of answering it, I'm
going to invite you to reflecton whatever is motivating you to
ask it.
The far right is using specifictactics to stir up hatred and
fear of transgender people.
Questions coming from this lineof thinking are not rooted in
genuine curiosity about my transexperience and I will not engage
them.
I am one trans person and cannotspeak for all trans people.
(33:04):
I am willing to answer questionsrelated to my experience of the
world as a black trans man.
This is to protect my mentalhealth and well being as I
continue to do this work.
If you have questions aboutspecific issues, I hope some of
the cis allies in the room canwork with you to expand your
perspective.
Joshua Croke (33:20):
As mentioned earlier, religion is often a
really challenging and stickypart of having conversations
about queer and trans identity.
I want to reiterate that thisshow is not anti religion, and
we uplift and value the voicesof people who hold diverse
belief structures.
Within pretty much everyreligion, you can find anti
(33:40):
LGBTQ plus positions, as well asaffirming LGBTQ plus positions.
I will say that I absolutelyhave feelings about people using
religion to marginalizeoppressive harm, and we know
from many studies that one,affirming someone's queer or
trans identity reduces theirlikelihood of attempting suicide
and leads to more positivehealth outcomes, and two, Two,
(34:04):
that anti LGBTQ plus policiesand positions lead to increased
hate crimes and violence againstqueer and trans people.
And three, that suppression ofone's identities
disproportionately increasesone's likelihood of depression,
anxiety, and substance use.
So, I could go on, but I willlet folks fill in the blank
there for now.
I asked Taj, how do youreconcile the diverse practices
(34:27):
and denominations withinChristianity, especially
considering the harm caused bymany of these groups?
Taj Smith (34:33):
That's something that I really, really struggle with.
I graduated Divinity School in2016, and since then, I've just
kind of been exploring the spaceoutside of ministry, and like,
really thinking about whatqueer, spirituality means.
Because it's not necessarilybeholden to one tradition, and
it doesn't have to be.
(34:54):
It shouldn't be.
That's part of what makes itqueer.
It's like subverting thesepieces that have been so
institutionalized and so held upas the way to live.
When, really, when people aregiven the freedom to explore and
to ask those questions, they're,they come more into themselves.
And, like, that is somethingbeautiful, and that is something
(35:17):
that I think of as sacred.
And, like, that journey doesn'tnecessarily need to happen,
like, with a specific tradition.
It just has to happen withsupportive people who will
encourage you to ask thosequestions.
Joshua Croke (35:32):
What would it look like if we, all of us, accepted
each person's individual journeyas a sacred act?
That stepping more fully intoour authenticity is part of
revealing our truest nature, onethat is connected to the diverse
and infinite world we live in.
As a queer person who has had alot, I mean, a lot of
(35:54):
conversations with people who donot think it's right to be
queer, that it's a sin, etc.
My family, the family of theyouth I work with at Love Your
Label, strangers that I meet atbars that just have to comment
on my appearance, etc, etc, etc.
I've heard the argument of,quote, well, you can't just be
(36:15):
supportive of people all thetime.
Sometimes they need guidance,especially when it's your kids.
You're not going to besupportive of someone using
drugs, struggling withaddiction.
And I don't think being gay iswhat's best for them.
Listen, I, I cannot with thisargument.
This is where I'm like, checkthe facts, girl.
One hand is holding the likemeasurable harm substance abuse
(36:35):
has in the life of a person,often with root causes of past
traumas and abuse.
And the other hand is holdinglike, I like to kiss boys.
It makes me smile and feel joy.
The other one that gets me is,if my child committed murder, I
wouldn't support that, but Iwould still love them.
Like, literally, you're killingme with this argument.
Comparing two things, one thatcauses measurable harm, rooted
(36:58):
in violence against anotherperson, and the other being
something you only feel iswrong, but causes no measurable
harm, and only, in fact, andyes, truly factual, improves the
well being and life outcomes ofa person.
Dismounting that soapbox forright now.
So, how do we imagine transfutures and religion as we
continue to grow as a humanity?
Taj Smith (37:21):
I'm also a big sci fi nerd.
There is so much that is queerand sacred in science fiction.
And the ways that sciencefiction deals with religion,
especially, is really likeFascinating how like different
planets have differentreligions, different peoples
coming from different places,how like when like people on
(37:42):
earth go into space and how theylike those religions get
influenced by the the practicesand rituals and traditions of
the other planets and otherpeoples.
Joshua Croke (37:53):
As you get to know me, you'll inevitably learn that
I love sci fi and I'm also ahuge nerd.
I have started talking about,because I've been going back
lately as I've been asked to domore public speaking and sit on
panels talking about theintersection of identity and
community and justice work, etc.
(38:17):
Often folks, knowing my historyof being raised in an extremely
sheltered and conservativecommunity religious environment
that was very anti LGBTQ I'vegotten the question, like, so
how did you get out?
Or how did you get to the placethat you are now?
(38:37):
And it's funny, I, as I've beenracking my brain, there are
obviously many different factorsthat contributed to that growth
and that ability to step morefully in a direction Empowered
me to show up more authenticallyas myself and there are so many
people in my life that have hadImpact along that journey and
(39:03):
when I look as far back as I cango Something that I loved when I
was a kid That we got to watchwas Star Trek, and I think it
was seen as this fun sci-fi.
You know, it's not real.
It's space and lasers and aliensand things.
When you root yourself into whatshapes the story of Star Trek,
(39:29):
it is a.
Unified Earth that is outexploring the galaxy with the
goal of seeking out new life andnew civilizations and better
understanding the science thatmakes the world work.
And I think I began tointernalize those things at a
(39:50):
very young age and there beganto be dissonance.
And Between what I was beingtaught in school and what I was
being told about what just is orshould be or what's right and
what's wrong and what boys doand what girls do.
And there became this likedissonant wave around my life at
In my early teens that I waslike, wait a second, I'm being
(40:13):
told that we're supposed to berooted in love and community and
accept people and buildrelationship with them.
And on the other hand, I'mseeing action and harmful
protesting of things like gaymarriage.
And I didn't understand that andwhere it came from.
And it seemed to actuallycontradict so much of what I was
(40:36):
taught were the teachings ofChrist.
And, you know, as growing upsomeone within a Christian
faith.
And so I really have so muchappreciation for science fiction
and how it challenges us tothink differently.
Adrian Marie Brown, who you willhear me bring up probably a
(40:57):
million more times, says thatscience fiction is the way we
practice the future together.
And I think that that is such apowerful argument for why sci fi
is change work.
And so I asked Taj, where doesreligion fit into an inclusive
and loving future?
Taj Smith (41:18):
So I think there is a place for religion and I know
it's not going to look like whatit does right now.
Even the religion we have todaydoesn't look like what it was a
hundred years ago.
It's ever changing.
It's ever evolving.
And.
I think that there are, there isa lot of richness within those
(41:39):
traditions and for a lot ofpeople they hold some very
important lineages.
They link them back to their,the roots, culture, really helps
people ground themselves intothat familial history in a way.
But it might be that that isreally where its place is in the
future and growing out of thatpeople start to just assemble,
(42:02):
what.
feels sacred to them.
Joshua Croke (42:06):
So I'd love to ask what feels sacred to you.
I'd love if you let me know, Iwant this show to be a dialogue
with you, our listeners.
So I'm introducing this segment,which I'm going to call feedback
loop as well as listenerspotlights.
And so feedback loop is going torevisit conversations like this
one with Taj when listeners likeyou hear it and then Want to
(42:30):
share your thoughts,perspectives, experiences, um,
voice memos are awesome, um,because we can share them on the
show, but feel free to send us anote if that's better for you.
So you can email me directly atjosh at queer for cities.
com.
And I'd love to hear yourthoughts, opinions, um, things
that you want to hear moreabout, uh, or things that
(42:53):
resonated you with youspecifically, um, so that we can
continue to come back to theseconversations and hold space,
um, for, for growth anddeepening.
We will be right back.
Oh, uh, we're also going to befeaturing queer and trans poets
and spoken word artists on queerfor cities.
So that's coming up too.
(43:24):
Love Your Labels is a non profitthat supports queer and trans
youth through art, fashion, anddesign based programs that
explore gender, identity, andexpression, and works to connect
youth to creative opportunitiesthat align with their passions
that lead to positive lifeoutcomes and fulfilling careers.
Love Your Labels also works withfamilies and communities to
create inclusive and lovingspaces everywhere.
(43:45):
Through programs like Drag StoryTime and Queer AF, an art and
fashion show celebrating theunique beauty of every person.
Queer AF returns to MechanicsHall in Worcester on Friday,
September 6th, and you can learnmore at loveyourlabels.
org.
(44:05):
Poetry and spoken word have alegacy of pushing us toward a
better world.
In our pursuit of building moreinclusive cities where queer and
trans folks thrive, we want touplift and amplify the voices of
creatives who are engaged inchange work through their
practice of shaping words andcreating works that make us
think and feel, that activate usto engage in our communities
(44:26):
more, and that encourage us tostep more fully into ourselves.
Our first poet featured today isTamako Byer.
Tamako introduces herself a bitbefore the poem she's chosen to
share with us.
So, I'll read a quote from DianaWhitney, writing for Electric
Lit in the article, Seven QueerPoetry Books I Wish I Could Give
to My Teenage Self, talkingabout Tamako.
(44:50):
The quote is, Her courageous newcollection is a radical act of
world building through poetry, abook of queer defiance that
embodies hope.
Tamiko Beyer (45:00):
My name is Tamiko Beyer, and I am a poet and a
writer, and my books include WeCome Elemental and Last Days.
And also, a book that I coedited with Destiny Hemphill and
Lizbeth White called PoetriaSpellcasting, Poems, Essays, and
Prompts for ManifestingLiberation and Reclaiming Power.
(45:22):
And I chose a poem today! That Iwrote a few years ago after a
very, very wet season.
I thought of it because I'msitting here in Boston after an
incredibly, well, in the middleof, I guess, an incredibly wet
spring.
Where there's just been so manydays of so much rain.
(45:44):
So it made me think of thispoem.
And in this poem, I was reallythinking about how insistent
life is, even as we are goingthrough this incredible change
in our world because of theclimate crisis.
And how, as I observe people andplants and animals and insects,
(46:09):
how, despite this disruptionsand changes in the weather and
the seasons, how, how insistentwe all are, I think, in living
and surviving.
And that gives me hope, it givesme hope that we will be able to
find a way through to change howwe are living and how we relate
(46:33):
to each other and hold ourelected officials accountable
and do all the organizing thatwe need to do to create a
different kind of world thatvalues life and is in awe of
life.
And that's kind of where thispoem comes from.
So, it's called Churn.
(46:55):
Sputter and flame in the middaygloom.
Another summer downpour soakingthis green door.
I touch lit match to candlewick.
Wettest July on this New Englandcoast according to graph makers
and record keepers.
The ants have their own historyof scrabble and sting, their own
(47:16):
timelines of sediment scent andshallow bath of breath.
They sing into the ground, singinto themselves, sing into their
many bodied cults.
What's the sound of the antscollective heartbeat?
I don't pretend to know.
Nor why they didn't attend tothe peonies this second pandemic
(47:39):
summer.
No swarms of legs and mandiblescollecting seeping sweet from
pipe buds.
No tiny bodies loosening thelayer, all I could do was hope
and wrap wire around the leaves,offer the flowers a place to
rest their heavy heads if theyblossomed in the churn.
(48:02):
And yes, the petaled clouds didopen on their own time, creating
layered rooms of perfume towander through.
Then, the rain.
Before the wreck of wind andwater, I cut three stems for the
altar and its silver blue cloth.
The end.
Place the vase in the center asushering.
(48:26):
This will not be the last timeit will rain this hard, nor be
this hot.
Soon, we'll stop saying thehottest year, the wettest year.
We will be the churn, settingthe graphs on fire, marking the
records with our collectivebreath, singing into the
emergence of what comes next.
(48:47):
Life in the mandibles, life inthe root hairs, the ants, the
rain, the peonies, certainly themilkweed who assert a new shoot
every time I turn around,singing the same ongoing
insistent song.
Joshua Croke (49:07):
To create a different kind of world that
values life and is in awe oflife.
Tamika said this before readingher poem, and it's so resonant
with what we're exploring inthis first episode of Queer for
Cities.
In order to participate activelyand sustainably in change work,
we need to believe that a betterfuture is possible, that a
(49:30):
joyful and liberated city ispossible, that a sustainable and
thriving world is possible.
I'm going to leave a dot dot dothere because we're going to come
back next week with a part twoof this opening episode.
In part two, we're going to hearmore from MG Xiong, the director
of programs for theMassachusetts Transgender
Political Coalition, or MTPC,where we'll talk about imagining
(49:53):
trans futures, the resources weneed to get there, And more hope
you'll come back.
You're listening to queer forcities.
I'm your host, Joshua Croak, andI'm out to make queer a joyful
norm.
You can hear us loud and queerwherever you get your podcasts.
And on WICN 90.
5 FM Worcester's only NPRaffiliate station, Jack trip is
(50:17):
our assistant producer.
And Giuliano D'Orazio is ouraudio engineer and music
producer.
You can learn more about ourshow.
Send us a voice memo and more atqueerforcities.
com.
(50:44):
Hey folks, it's josh.
Do you have challenges in yourcommunity that require
collaborative and creativesolutions?
My team specializes in formingand facilitating collaborative
partnerships and findingcreative solutions to community
challenges And i'd love to talkwith you about working together
I also am available to speak ontopics of queer identity
equitable community developmentand cultivating inclusive
(51:06):
creative ecosystems You Send mean email at josh at
queerforcities.
com to find a time to explorepossibilities together.
Hey Queer for Cities fans! Didyou know that we've got merch?
We've got a growing list ofoptions over at queerforcities.
(51:27):
com slash store where you canrep merch from tees to totes
that support the creation ofqueer media like our Queer for
Cities podcast.
What do you want to see in thestore?
Send us a DM on Instagram atqueerforcities.
See you in the streets!
The questions that you have right now about your
life
MG Xiong (00:04):
matter.
I've always felt, like, wherethere is no hope or vision of
the future, it is incumbent uponus to invent it, and to invent
that future.
Joshua Croke (00:18):
Hello, hello, hello! This is Queer for Cities
very first episode, and I am soexcited to be finally sharing
this project with the world.
I'm Joshua Kroak, I'm thecreator of this show, supported
by Jack Tripp and GiulianaD'Orazio, and I will be your
host.
I'm a queer and non binarydesigner, artist, and
facilitator working at theintersections of community
(00:39):
justice, urban development, andcreative placemaking with a
passion for cultivatingequitable and just communities.
Shorthand, I'm a queer urbanist,and I'm out to make queer a
joyful norm.
Our thesis for this show is,when we build more queer
inclusive cities We build bettercities for everyone.
(01:02):
The way that our cities aredesigned is intentional.
But the impact of that designhas caused a lot of unintended,
and very intended, harm topeople.
And so often the design ofcities excludes and doesn't
center folks at the margins.
BIPOC, 2SLGBTQIA disabled,elders, the list goes on.
And a lot of us queer folk havea really challenging
(01:24):
relationship with place,especially the places and spaces
that we grew up in that weren'tsupportive of us.
So many of us moved to the citynearby or a city far away.
The city has been a place ofrelative refuge for many queer
and trans folks throughout time,and that's part of why we're
doing this show.
Queer for Cities is a podcastand radio show about life at the
(01:47):
intersections of identity andplace, and designing equity
centered, liberated communitieswhere 2SLGBTQIA plus folks
thrive.
If you're listening to this anddon't identify as queer or
trans, I also hope you'll becomea dedicated listener of our
show.
We need strong allies in thiswork, and if you're not sure if
you're an ally or are curious toexpand your field of vision
(02:09):
around these issues, we'd lovefor you to stay here.
I'm often going to say queer andtrans instead of the longer
acronym.
I do that for a few reasons.
One, as someone who talks aboutissues faced by the 2SLGBTQIA
plus community all the time, itis a lot to repeat over and over
again.
Queer is a term that a lot ofpeople, especially our youth,
have reclaimed as a broaderumbrella for many of the
(02:31):
identities held under thisrainbow of ours.
It was the inspiration of youngqueer and trans youth that I
work with that I reclaimed thisword for myself, which was one
that was used harmfully andderogatorily when I was a young
person.
And I know there are a lot ofpeople that have harm histories
associated with that term, so Iwant to be respectful and also
(02:53):
follow the lead of our youth whoare finding power in reclaiming
terms that have been usedagainst us.
I say queer and transspecifically because of the
critical centering we need to doin all justice work around trans
lives.
Because even in LGB plus spaces,trans and non binary folks are
often diminished, erased, andnot included.
So our experiences and ourchallenges need to be front and
(03:15):
center in all justice work.
And for us non binary folks whohave faced a non binary imposter
syndrome, which I'm borrowingfrom a guest who we have on
later this season, LaurenMcNair, we are included under
that trans umbrella.
And all of our nuance anddifference in how we hold this
for ourselves is valid.
(03:35):
I'm really excited to introduceyou to our first guests, MG
Xiong and Taj Smith in a minute,but this is our first episode,
so I need to establish somedriving values and other
considerations on what this showhopes to be.
I'm a facilitator, so I oftenwork with groups to establish
shared agreements and valuesthat help guide our work
together and help folks agree onhow to hold space with each
(03:58):
other most effectively,especially when navigating
challenging conversations anddisagreements.
And because urban design,community and economic
development, these other relatedterms and industries are often
seen as gentrifying andaggressive.
exclusionary practices, which iscompletely justified because
that is often the case.
Also a reason we are making thisshow.
(04:20):
I want you to hear some thingsupfront that are driving beliefs
of mine that influence how I amgoing to engage in this work and
how we're going to create thisspace.
With you on Queer for Cities.
You'll hear me use the termintersectionality a lot.
If you happen to be new to theterm or have heard it, but
haven't really absorbed it.
It was coined by KimberlyCrenshaw in the nineties and
(04:43):
added to the Merriam Websterdictionary with the definition,
the complex cumulative way.
In which the effects of multipleforms of discrimination, such as
racism, sexism, and classismcombine, overlap, or intersect,
especially in the experiences ofmarginalized individuals or
groups.
So holding multiple marginalizedidentities like being queer and
(05:05):
black and disabled, for example,has a compounding effect on how
someone experiences the currentstate of our biased world.
And I'm speaking from a USperspective specifically on this
show.
The author, feminist, and civilrights activist, Audrey Lorde,
an incredible black lesbianwoman, by the way, pointed out
that we do not live single issuelives.
(05:26):
When I speak on issues ofequity, justice, and community,
I often point out the importanceof nuance, and a recognition
that there are layers, andoverlaps, and bleeds, and
parallels in almost everything.
And we need to strive to holdonto that.
all of those things at once aswe work together to build truly
equitable solutions to our mostpressing challenges.
You can't talk about healthequity without addressing the
(05:48):
right to housing.
For example, on equity, I placeequity at the center of all of
my work.
It's a much more frequentlyheard term nowadays than in
years past for many people.
So folks hold variousdefinitions and understandings
of equity.
So for our, um, I guess glossaryof shared definitions.
(06:10):
I want to put forward thatequity is discussed as both an
outcome or goal as well as anaction.
The creative reaction lab, whichis based out of St.
Louis, Missouri defines equityas an outcome saying when
outcomes are not predictablebased on someone's identities or
characteristics, for example,race, sexual orientation, gender
(06:30):
identity, ability, et cetera.
Facing History and Ourselves,which is an organization using
lessons of history to challengeteachers and their students to
stand up to bigotry and hate,defines equity in action, saying
equity examines and adjustsstructures, processes, and norms
that distribute power andresources across a community to
(06:52):
allow and encourage eachindividual to develop fully.
A community committed to equityis one whose members
continuously examine the rolethat power plays.
Privilege and positionality playboth in either maintaining or
mitigating historical andpresent day inequities.
We're going to talk about andshare examples of equity
(07:13):
centered work in this show.
So if you're like, um, don'tworry, this is a reason we're
here.
And if you're listening and arelike, yep, this is my jam, I'm
deeply involved in this work.
We're going deeper too.
Queer for Cities is produced inWorcester, Massachusetts, which
is the ancestral lands of theNipmuc people.
The Nipmuc Nation is still onthis land.
(07:35):
Their constitution was ratifiedby the citizens of Nipmuc Nation
in 2003, and their mission is topreserve and promote the
culture, language, and values ofthe Nipmuc people while striving
to improve the quality of lifefor all their citizens.
I think it's important to make aland acknowledgment and
recognize.
The legacy of harm and howcolonialism has shaped the
(07:57):
spaces and the places that weexist in and acknowledging that
we are unceded ground iscritical in moving and advancing
towards a more equitable, just,and liberated future.
Our discussions will also touchon other New England cities, um,
so I want to uplift the uncededlands of the Agawam, Poconoque,
(08:19):
and Pueblo.
Mohican, Wampanoag, Mohegan,Nonotuck, Pecumtuck, Pentucket,
Penacook, Wabanaki, Abenaki,Narragansett, Pequot, and other
indigenous peoples.
I also want to name andrecognize the erasure of and
misinformation around indigenouspeoples and the land history
(08:39):
that uh, I received during myeducation in Central
Massachusetts, and I amcommitted to continually re
educating myself andhighlighting Indigenous
perspectives on our show as wediscuss urbanism, displacement,
and more, particularly from twospirit and queer Indigenous
people.
On Queer for Cities, we focus onthe American context of urban
(09:00):
development and communityjustice, and how queer and trans
folks have and are navigatingthese spaces.
Every day, our lives are touchedby the pervasive legacy of
colonialism.
So I want to also acknowledgethe forced labor that built the
wealth and infrastructure ofthis country.
Black people built America.
(09:20):
Full stop.
We need to look at the brutalhistory of slavery and its
modern manifestations tounderstand where we are today,
especially when we're talkingabout city building and
community growth.
So I want to make that land andlabor acknowledgement as a
foundation for how we're goingto move into conversations about
urban design, development,community.
(09:42):
I also want to share adefinition of how I define
community, because that can be abit of an amorphous term.
So I've defined community aspeople connected by common
purpose, passion, place, orculture.
Communities are intersectional,diverse entities that evolve and
(10:02):
change.
You are in community with theneighborhood that you exist in.
Maybe even if you don't see orknow your neighbors, you are in
community with other queer andtrans people.
You are in community with peoplethat, um, love the sport that
you are passionate about.
So community is something thatwe are involved in in many
(10:23):
different manifestations of andintersections of.
Okay.
Okay.
I promise we are going to getinto our episode.
And by episode, I mean to ouramazing guests, I have a
penchant for going pretty deepanytime I'm like meeting a new
group of people or building aspace for nuanced and layered
discussions.
And this is very much a newspace and I hope you will
(10:44):
continue to embark on thisjourney with me.
I hope this wasn't too long of astage setting foundation
building piece of our firstepisode.
In our debut season of Queer forCities, very exciting, we are
exploring what makes a city notjust livable, but a truly
affirming and joyful place forqueer and trans folks.
(11:05):
We're diving into the heart ofqueer urban life, from community
health, to the club, andeverything in between.
We're bringing together voicesfrom across the spectrum, from
queer artists and agitators toarchitects, urban planners, and
activists, to share theirstories, challenges, and
triumphs in creating inclusivespaces and equitable cities.
(11:26):
I firmly believe that when webuild a queer inclusive cities,
we build better cities foreveryone.
My mission and my charge to allof you listeners is to make
queer a joyful norm.
And when I say norm, I mean theimagined reality that we can
exist as the truest version ofourselves safely.
We'll always keep it weird anddifferent, and that's what I
(11:49):
want normal to mean.
That we transform to embracediversity and difference as the
norm.
Now we're done.
Let's dive in.
You're listening to queer forcities, wherever you get your
podcasts and on WIC and 90.
5 FM Worcester's only NPRaffiliate station tune in on
Wednesdays at 6 PM and Sundaysat 11 PM and find us at queer
(12:12):
for cities.
com.
MG Xiong (12:19):
I'm MG Xiong, I use they, them, theirs pronouns, and
I'm Hmong, transmasculine, andnonbinary.
I'm originally from Anchorage,Alaska, actually, and I now live
in Medford with my sweet babycat Meatball.
Many folks that I meet with, um,This is, I'm the first trans
person I'm meeting.
This is their first exposure toreally talking about gender as
(12:42):
an expansive experience.
Joshua Croke (12:44):
It still surprises me that in 2024, I continue to
meet people who feel they havenever met a trans person.
But this is the power of erasurefolks, and we're talking about
all the censorship.
book banning an effort to erasequeer and trans folks later in
the season, for sure.
But MG raises a question thatwe've had to consider for
generations in efforts to buildmore accepting and inclusive
(13:07):
spaces for us.
MG Xiong (13:09):
How do I introduce people to?
Trans experience in a way thatis meaningful and also
accessible.
Joshua Croke (13:16):
We're going to hear more from MG in a bit, but
our other guest today, TajSmith, illuminates this further.
Taj Smith (13:23):
70 percent of Americans say that they've never
met a trans person, and I'mlike, well, if you're a part of
that 70%, hi, hello, my name isTaj.
Joshua Croke (13:30):
I met Taj and MG at First Event in January 2024,
which is actually where werecorded these interviews.
First Event is hosted by TransCommunity of New England, also
known as TCNE, and is one of thelongest running conferences in
the U.
S.
for trans and gender expansivepeople.
Taj Smith (13:47):
I am a black transgender man, originally from
California, around the Bay Area.
My background is in ministry andtrans theology, queer theology,
and figuring out what queerfutures look like in religious
spaces, and have since broadenedthat work to figure out what
queer futures look like ingeneral.
Joshua Croke (14:10):
As a black transgender Christian, Taj's
work explores faith,spirituality, liberation, and
queer theology andintersectional politics.
He holds a master's of divinityfrom Harvard Divinity School and
has a creative passion for musicand literature, particularly
science fiction.
Taj Smith (14:27):
I came into this religious awakening and also
came into my gender identity atthe same time and realized that,
like, the call that I felt, thepull that I felt wasn't
necessarily towards activism,though that's a huge part of it,
it's also towards nurturing andjust caring for the spirits of
(14:47):
people who are trying to changethe world and make it a more
equitable place, make it a placewhere people have access to what
they need to survive and whatthey need to thrive.
Joshua Croke (15:01):
I asked Taj about his experience with place and
how that helped or hurt hisjourney to stepping more fully
into his authentic self.
Taj Smith (15:10):
Place has been crucial to all of it.
I think being the person that Iwas, where I grew up.
Like, I grew up in Vacaville,California.
It's the midpoint between SanFrancisco and Sacramento.
And it is Everyone thinks ofCalifornia as this, like, blue
block.
But, you know, the furtherinland you go, the more
(15:32):
conservative it gets.
And being there with my mom, whowas a single mom, and being one
of the few, like, Black familiesthat we knew of, and, you know,
hearing my mom, like, talkabout.
Like black power and like beingpart of some of the more like
radical or at least holding someof the more radical ideologies
(15:55):
that were like around the bayarea at the time that she was
growing up.
It kind of positioned me inopposition to so many of the
people that I was with and solike I kind of formed this
identity based on what I wasnot.
And when I got to college andreally started to meet other
like queer and trans folks andfelt like I had some, some
(16:19):
place, like some sort of likegrounding, some place where I
belonged, I started to thinkabout like, okay, well, what
does it mean to actually belongto something?
Joshua Croke (16:29):
I'm sure this question is not foreign to so
many of us, queer, trans, andnot even identifying as queer
and trans, is like, what doesbelonging feel like?
We know, I think, what thatfeeling doesn't feel like, or
when we don't feel like webelong, you can kind of feel
that crawling sensation in yourbody, or you start to close
(16:53):
yourself off, or are more hyper.
aware of your environment andyour surroundings because of
some fear that something mayhappen.
We're going to explore this moreabout how place is shaped and
built to sometimes intentionallymake folks feel that way.
(17:14):
And I really want to explorewhat does belonging feel like in
a city and in a community?
What makes you feel like you'vestepped into a place that you
are going to be welcome?
What does the environment looklike?
Who's there?
How is it designed?
What drew you in and brought youinto that?
(17:34):
I think You know, I'm reflectingon the feelings of not feeling
belonging at home.
Growing up necessarily and not,not feeling safe on the street
or in public, um, as visiblyqueer folks and really looking
at how do we navigate tounderstanding of what feels good
(17:57):
for us.
And Taj talked a little bitabout this in our interview.
Taj Smith (18:01):
I live in a house up in Lawrence now, and I know some
of my neighbors.
I don't know all of them.
I don't know how my neighborsfeel about queer and trans
people.
I haven't asked, and that's notpolite, quote unquote, polite
conversation, you know?
So, I feel like there's just somuch disconnect in the way that
(18:25):
we live now, and a lot of theseplaces where It seems like there
aren't any resources.
I feel like people just needmore connection.
And to know that, like, peoplethemselves are a resource.
And, like, the way that people,the ways that people live,
people's lives are a resource,especially to younger folks who
(18:46):
are coming out.
Like, I think about, like, likemyself being, uh, a 37 trans
elder in a lot of ways and howStrange that feels for me
because I you know want to thinkthat I'm still like, you know
young and spry but at the sametime like Knowing that there are
kids who see me and they go wowa real trans adult Like yeah
(19:11):
Hello And how if they just hadthat connection to somebody in
their community, or somebodythat's more accessible to where
they are right now, theywouldn't feel so lonely.
Joshua Croke (19:26):
There's a few things that I want to unpack in
what Taj just said there.
The quote unquote politeconversation resonated so deeply
with me because of how I havefelt in my own journey that
being too queer, whatever thatmeans, Is in some way, making
(19:50):
other people uncomfortable sothat I should minimize and make
smaller myself in order to makesure that I don't have a
negative interaction withsomeone that I might see in the
stairwell as I walk up.
I live in a three decker inWorcester and you know, I don't
know, similar to Taj, how myneighbors feel about queer and
(20:12):
trans people.
microaggressions or theinteractions that we have with
people that can sometimes feellike, huh, like I'm getting a
weird vibe or a weird read fromthis person.
And I'm not a hundred percentsure what it is.
And I definitely cannot writeoff that it's homophobia or
(20:33):
transphobia.
We're going to talk a little bitmore with Taj about having
difficult conversations.
Mainly with folks in ourfamilies who may not be
supportive of our identities,of, uh, queer and trans kids.
We know a lot of parentsnavigate the challenges of
wanting to be supportive oftheir queer and trans young
(20:55):
people, and they have to fight.
against family.
Maybe it's their parents.
Maybe it's their siblings whoare not showing up in ways that
are supportive and are actuallycontributing to the harm of
these young people gettingaccess to the resources and
support that they need.
And I want to uplift a quotethat always comes to mind when
(21:20):
I'm in sitting in conversationswith folks, um, who may be in
disagreement with the Queertrans conversation, as it were.
James Baldwin, a queer blackman, author, brilliant mind, has
a quote that we can disagree andstill love each other as long as
(21:44):
our disagreement is not rootedin my oppression or right to
exist.
Loneliness is a core feelingthat's connected to depression,
anxiety, substance abuse, It canbe a catalyst for so much harm
(22:06):
and pain and so many queer andtrans folks.
Especially youthdisproportionately face
depression, anxiety, et cetera,because of an exclusion or a
lack of acceptance of who theyare and who they are becoming
and the environments that theyare raised in.
(22:27):
We'll talk later in the seasonabout that.
Really inspecting this conceptof the nuclear family and how
there are so many cultures andfolks that approach family in a
very different way.
Not so much connected to bloodand biology, but to we are here
and we share space together incommunity and this community is
(22:48):
family and we stand up for fightfor support and embrace and love
each other.
And that is something that.
Is I will say by and largelacking in a lot of the
communities in the cities thatpeople live in.
And one of our arguments here onqueer for cities is that that is
(23:09):
by design separation andsegregation is a tool that has
been used to separate peoplebased on on race, based on the
fact that queer and trans folkshave to escape to the nearby
city to find some semblance ofsafety if we're thrown out of
our homes or simply need toescape violence.
(23:33):
And so as we talk about quoteunquote, polite conversation, we
need to recognize that Ourability to exist freely and
openly as ourselves should notbe something that we weigh
against our safety.
I run a queer and trans youthcentered non profit organization
called Love Your Labels that'sbased in central Massachusetts
(23:55):
and here in Worcester.
And we are driven by a statisticthat came out of the Trevor
Project.
That just one person Affirmingadult in the life of a queer and
trans young person reduces theirlikelihood of attempting suicide
by over 40%.
That's just one person saying, Ilove you.
I see you.
You are valuable.
(24:16):
You are worthy.
You are incredible and uniqueand brilliant just as you are.
That statement in and of itselfis life saving.
And so I asked Taj what he wouldshare with any young people who
might be listening to this showright now.
Taj Smith (24:33):
The questions that you have right now about your
life matter, and that regardlessof what anybody else tells you,
like, you should explore them.
And that you're not alone.
There are other people in theworld who are like you, and we
are fighting for you, so thatyou can grow up.
Joshua Croke (24:52):
As Queer for Cities is about creating
inclusive and loving community,the first place that often
starts is at home.
Many of us queer and trans folkshave come from environments that
are not supportive of oursexuality and gender identities.
Taj's talk at first event wascalled When Religion Divides,
and it was about having hardconversations, especially with
(25:14):
folks in our lives who may beagainst queer and trans lives
because of quote unquote.
religious values.
It was particularly gearedtowards parents who are
supportive of their queer andtrans kids, but have people in
the family that are not.
If you're like, whoa, now we'rejumping right into religion in
episode one, buckle up, baby.
So I grew up conservativeBaptist.
(25:37):
I went to church multiple timesa week.
In addition to going to aprivate Baptist church school in
Palmer, Massachusetts.
That environment was not onlyincredibly successful at
sheltering me from diverseperspectives, identities,
cultures, but it also created anenvironment where even without
(25:59):
having to say the thing outloud, I knew that being gay
wasn't for me.
was wrong.
And I didn't even have the wordsto articulate what feeling like
I was different and havingdifferent attraction or feeling
differently in my body.
I didn't even know how toarticulate those things.
And even if I did, I wouldn'tknow who I would have gone to to
(26:22):
talk about them.
I don't consider myself areligious person anymore, but I
know many queer and trans folksin my life that have found
affirming religious spaces thatembrace and accept them, and we
know that inclusion andaffirmation of queer and trans
folks at church Isn't it given,and I want to be clear that this
is not going to be antireligious.
(26:44):
It's actually quite theopposite, especially given Taj's
placement in his work as a faithdriven practitioner.
I've found it can be easier tohave conversations with people
who are anti LGBTQ plus whentheir issue is raised.
with it really comes from asocial and media narrative.
That's like, it's wrong.
(27:04):
And that comes, goes back to alegacy of just not including
queer and trans people, familiesin media and in the stories that
we hear in the history booksthat we read and we will get
there.
But it's easier to haveconversations with folks coming
from that social perspective, asopposed to the argument My God
(27:27):
says this is wrong.
So Taj's talk presented a guidefor holding space for these
conversations as well as when todisengage, which is super valid,
super critical.
If you are listening to this andyou are a young person or you
are someone like me, Many of uswho are navigating difficult
relationships with family thatyou're really trying to hold on
(27:49):
to, but it just continues tobeat you down, disengaging and
disconnecting is a hundredpercent okay.
You are not responsible for theharm that people are causing to
you, even when you love them.
And it's rooted in that care forand desire to hold loving
relationship with people fromyour life.
(28:10):
That is driving you into thoseconversations.
If you're like, I've been doingit for years and I always leave
those conversations feelingdevastated, sad, angry,
frustrated, if it's helpful, I'mgiving you permission to leave
those conversations and separatefrom those relationships for the
(28:31):
time that you need to heal.
Because I've had to do that inmy life.
So Taj said that starting fromcommon ground, communicating
that shared love for your childand concerns for their safety
can begin to form a stablefoundation for some of these
conversations.
Taj Smith (28:48):
It is always just like talking to them, talking to
them multiple times, and to, andstarting, just to get them to
start to question why they holdthe belief, especially when they
see that like, You know, like,queer and trans folks, we're not
out here to hurt anybody.
Like, we're, like I said, wejust want to live our lives in a
(29:10):
way that feels good to us.
And, I think the more thatpeople realize that, the more
that they see, like, oh, Oh,this isn't a threat to my life.
Like, and they can start todeconstruct those ideas and
start to replace them with atleast at the bare minimum, very,
(29:33):
very bare minimum tolerance.
And then from there, once wework, once we work on tolerance,
I'm like, okay, let's get toacceptance and then let's get to
just full on advocacy.
Joshua Croke (29:47):
Taj shared that it takes about seven conversations
to change someone's mind, andthat it's important to set a
goal beforehand when going intothese conversations.
What might advance the longerterm goal of building an
affirming and loving advocatewho isn't there yet?
Part of why I'm starting episodeone with this conversation is to
(30:10):
encourage and remind us thatThat any type of change work
takes time, it takesconversation, and it takes
relationship building that issometimes messy, complicated,
challenging, difficult, anddoesn't always lead to the
outcomes that we want when wewant them.
(30:32):
We also need queer and transissues to be brought front and
center way more, and oftentimesit's us queer and trans folks
who have to do that uplifting.
So if you're an ally that'slistening to this and this
conversation and the otherthings that we talk about on
this show resonate with you, Iwould encourage you to listen to
(30:53):
this and welcome you to bringthese things up in the spaces
that you sit in.
Think about how do we leverageour privilege and our
positionality to talk aboutthese intersectional issues.
And again, this isintersectional justice work.
We cannot talk about trulycreating space and truly
(31:16):
creating equity for BIPOC folks,for disabled folks, for other
folks who experiencemarginalization.
out also centering LGBTQ plusidentity because we exist in
every single other group thatalso exists.
So I've sat in racial equitycentered spaces that have been
(31:38):
explicitly exclusionary of queerand trans conversations.
And That is not furthering thework towards true justice and
liberation, because there arefolks that hold those multiple
identities that are being leftbehind, and they are the people
that are experiencing the mostdisproportionate violence and
oppression in our cities.
Taj Smith (32:00):
I'm not out here with like some hidden agenda.
I want to create conditions inwhich everybody can live the
ways that feel right.
Authentic and good for them.
Joshua Croke (32:11):
Same, Taj.
Literally same.
If you get to that place whereyou need to protect your energy,
you know the conversation isn'tgoing anywhere, or you just
don't have the time or space forit, Taj was actually willing to
share his disengagementstatement with me, which I get
to pass on to all of you, whichhe encourages folks to write
down and have with them forthese types of conversations.
(32:34):
And you can model yours afterTaj's, or create one that feels
authentic and good for you.
Taj Smith (32:40):
I hear your question and instead of answering it, I'm
going to invite you to reflecton whatever is motivating you to
ask it.
The far right is using specifictactics to stir up hatred and
fear of transgender people.
Questions coming from this lineof thinking are not rooted in
genuine curiosity about my transexperience and I will not engage
them.
I am one trans person and cannotspeak for all trans people.
(33:04):
I am willing to answer questionsrelated to my experience of the
world as a black trans man.
This is to protect my mentalhealth and well being as I
continue to do this work.
If you have questions aboutspecific issues, I hope some of
the cis allies in the room canwork with you to expand your
perspective.
Joshua Croke (33:20):
As mentioned earlier, religion is often a
really challenging and stickypart of having conversations
about queer and trans identity.
I want to reiterate that thisshow is not anti religion, and
we uplift and value the voicesof people who hold diverse
belief structures.
Within pretty much everyreligion, you can find anti
(33:40):
LGBTQ plus positions, as well asaffirming LGBTQ plus positions.
I will say that I absolutelyhave feelings about people using
religion to marginalizeoppressive harm, and we know
from many studies that one,affirming someone's queer or
trans identity reduces theirlikelihood of attempting suicide
and leads to more positivehealth outcomes, and two, Two,
(34:04):
that anti LGBTQ plus policiesand positions lead to increased
hate crimes and violence againstqueer and trans people.
And three, that suppression ofone's identities
disproportionately increasesone's likelihood of depression,
anxiety, and substance use.
So, I could go on, but I willlet folks fill in the blank
there for now.
I asked Taj, how do youreconcile the diverse practices
(34:27):
and denominations withinChristianity, especially
considering the harm caused bymany of these groups?
Taj Smith (34:33):
That's something that I really, really struggle with.
I graduated Divinity School in2016, and since then, I've just
kind of been exploring the spaceoutside of ministry, and like,
really thinking about whatqueer, spirituality means.
Because it's not necessarilybeholden to one tradition, and
it doesn't have to be.
(34:54):
It shouldn't be.
That's part of what makes itqueer.
It's like subverting thesepieces that have been so
institutionalized and so held upas the way to live.
When, really, when people aregiven the freedom to explore and
to ask those questions, they're,they come more into themselves.
And, like, that is somethingbeautiful, and that is something
(35:17):
that I think of as sacred.
And, like, that journey doesn'tnecessarily need to happen,
like, with a specific tradition.
It just has to happen withsupportive people who will
encourage you to ask thosequestions.
Joshua Croke (35:32):
What would it look like if we, all of us, accepted
each person's individual journeyas a sacred act?
That stepping more fully intoour authenticity is part of
revealing our truest nature, onethat is connected to the diverse
and infinite world we live in.
As a queer person who has had alot, I mean, a lot of
(35:54):
conversations with people who donot think it's right to be
queer, that it's a sin, etc.
My family, the family of theyouth I work with at Love Your
Label, strangers that I meet atbars that just have to comment
on my appearance, etc, etc, etc.
I've heard the argument of,quote, well, you can't just be
(36:15):
supportive of people all thetime.
Sometimes they need guidance,especially when it's your kids.
You're not going to besupportive of someone using
drugs, struggling withaddiction.
And I don't think being gay iswhat's best for them.
Listen, I, I cannot with thisargument.
This is where I'm like, checkthe facts, girl.
One hand is holding the likemeasurable harm substance abuse
(36:35):
has in the life of a person,often with root causes of past
traumas and abuse.
And the other hand is holdinglike, I like to kiss boys.
It makes me smile and feel joy.
The other one that gets me is,if my child committed murder, I
wouldn't support that, but Iwould still love them.
Like, literally, you're killingme with this argument.
Comparing two things, one thatcauses measurable harm, rooted
(36:58):
in violence against anotherperson, and the other being
something you only feel iswrong, but causes no measurable
harm, and only, in fact, andyes, truly factual, improves the
well being and life outcomes ofa person.
Dismounting that soapbox forright now.
So, how do we imagine transfutures and religion as we
continue to grow as a humanity?
Taj Smith (37:21):
I'm also a big sci fi nerd.
There is so much that is queerand sacred in science fiction.
And the ways that sciencefiction deals with religion,
especially, is really likeFascinating how like different
planets have differentreligions, different peoples
coming from different places,how like when like people on
(37:42):
earth go into space and how theylike those religions get
influenced by the the practicesand rituals and traditions of
the other planets and otherpeoples.
Joshua Croke (37:53):
As you get to know me, you'll inevitably learn that
I love sci fi and I'm also ahuge nerd.
I have started talking about,because I've been going back
lately as I've been asked to domore public speaking and sit on
panels talking about theintersection of identity and
community and justice work, etc.
(38:17):
Often folks, knowing my historyof being raised in an extremely
sheltered and conservativecommunity religious environment
that was very anti LGBTQ I'vegotten the question, like, so
how did you get out?
Or how did you get to the placethat you are now?
(38:37):
And it's funny, I, as I've beenracking my brain, there are
obviously many different factorsthat contributed to that growth
and that ability to step morefully in a direction Empowered
me to show up more authenticallyas myself and there are so many
people in my life that have hadImpact along that journey and
(39:03):
when I look as far back as I cango Something that I loved when I
was a kid That we got to watchwas Star Trek, and I think it
was seen as this fun sci-fi.
You know, it's not real.
It's space and lasers and aliensand things.
When you root yourself into whatshapes the story of Star Trek,
(39:29):
it is a.
Unified Earth that is outexploring the galaxy with the
goal of seeking out new life andnew civilizations and better
understanding the science thatmakes the world work.
And I think I began tointernalize those things at a
(39:50):
very young age and there beganto be dissonance.
And Between what I was beingtaught in school and what I was
being told about what just is orshould be or what's right and
what's wrong and what boys doand what girls do.
And there became this likedissonant wave around my life at
In my early teens that I waslike, wait a second, I'm being
(40:13):
told that we're supposed to berooted in love and community and
accept people and buildrelationship with them.
And on the other hand, I'mseeing action and harmful
protesting of things like gaymarriage.
And I didn't understand that andwhere it came from.
And it seemed to actuallycontradict so much of what I was
(40:36):
taught were the teachings ofChrist.
And, you know, as growing upsomeone within a Christian
faith.
And so I really have so muchappreciation for science fiction
and how it challenges us tothink differently.
Adrian Marie Brown, who you willhear me bring up probably a
(40:57):
million more times, says thatscience fiction is the way we
practice the future together.
And I think that that is such apowerful argument for why sci fi
is change work.
And so I asked Taj, where doesreligion fit into an inclusive
and loving future?
Taj Smith (41:18):
So I think there is a place for religion and I know
it's not going to look like whatit does right now.
Even the religion we have todaydoesn't look like what it was a
hundred years ago.
It's ever changing.
It's ever evolving.
And.
I think that there are, there isa lot of richness within those
(41:39):
traditions and for a lot ofpeople they hold some very
important lineages.
They link them back to their,the roots, culture, really helps
people ground themselves intothat familial history in a way.
But it might be that that isreally where its place is in the
future and growing out of thatpeople start to just assemble,
(42:02):
what.
feels sacred to them.
Joshua Croke (42:06):
So I'd love to ask what feels sacred to you.
I'd love if you let me know, Iwant this show to be a dialogue
with you, our listeners.
So I'm introducing this segment,which I'm going to call feedback
loop as well as listenerspotlights.
And so feedback loop is going torevisit conversations like this
one with Taj when listeners likeyou hear it and then Want to
(42:30):
share your thoughts,perspectives, experiences, um,
voice memos are awesome, um,because we can share them on the
show, but feel free to send us anote if that's better for you.
So you can email me directly atjosh at queer for cities.
com.
And I'd love to hear yourthoughts, opinions, um, things
that you want to hear moreabout, uh, or things that
(42:53):
resonated you with youspecifically, um, so that we can
continue to come back to theseconversations and hold space,
um, for, for growth anddeepening.
We will be right back.
Oh, uh, we're also going to befeaturing queer and trans poets
and spoken word artists on queerfor cities.
So that's coming up too.
(43:24):
Love Your Labels is a non profitthat supports queer and trans
youth through art, fashion, anddesign based programs that
explore gender, identity, andexpression, and works to connect
youth to creative opportunitiesthat align with their passions
that lead to positive lifeoutcomes and fulfilling careers.
Love Your Labels also works withfamilies and communities to
create inclusive and lovingspaces everywhere.
(43:45):
Through programs like Drag StoryTime and Queer AF, an art and
fashion show celebrating theunique beauty of every person.
Queer AF returns to MechanicsHall in Worcester on Friday,
September 6th, and you can learnmore at loveyourlabels.
org.
(44:05):
Poetry and spoken word have alegacy of pushing us toward a
better world.
In our pursuit of building moreinclusive cities where queer and
trans folks thrive, we want touplift and amplify the voices of
creatives who are engaged inchange work through their
practice of shaping words andcreating works that make us
think and feel, that activate usto engage in our communities
(44:26):
more, and that encourage us tostep more fully into ourselves.
Our first poet featured today isTamako Byer.
Tamako introduces herself a bitbefore the poem she's chosen to
share with us.
So, I'll read a quote from DianaWhitney, writing for Electric
Lit in the article, Seven QueerPoetry Books I Wish I Could Give
to My Teenage Self, talkingabout Tamako.
(44:50):
The quote is, Her courageous newcollection is a radical act of
world building through poetry, abook of queer defiance that
embodies hope.
Tamiko Beyer (45:00):
My name is Tamiko Beyer, and I am a poet and a
writer, and my books include WeCome Elemental and Last Days.
And also, a book that I coedited with Destiny Hemphill and
Lizbeth White called PoetriaSpellcasting, Poems, Essays, and
Prompts for ManifestingLiberation and Reclaiming Power.
(45:22):
And I chose a poem today! That Iwrote a few years ago after a
very, very wet season.
I thought of it because I'msitting here in Boston after an
incredibly, well, in the middleof, I guess, an incredibly wet
spring.
Where there's just been so manydays of so much rain.
(45:44):
So it made me think of thispoem.
And in this poem, I was reallythinking about how insistent
life is, even as we are goingthrough this incredible change
in our world because of theclimate crisis.
And how, as I observe people andplants and animals and insects,
(46:09):
how, despite this disruptionsand changes in the weather and
the seasons, how, how insistentwe all are, I think, in living
and surviving.
And that gives me hope, it givesme hope that we will be able to
find a way through to change howwe are living and how we relate
(46:33):
to each other and hold ourelected officials accountable
and do all the organizing thatwe need to do to create a
different kind of world thatvalues life and is in awe of
life.
And that's kind of where thispoem comes from.
So, it's called Churn.
(46:55):
Sputter and flame in the middaygloom.
Another summer downpour soakingthis green door.
I touch lit match to candlewick.
Wettest July on this New Englandcoast according to graph makers
and record keepers.
The ants have their own historyof scrabble and sting, their own
(47:16):
timelines of sediment scent andshallow bath of breath.
They sing into the ground, singinto themselves, sing into their
many bodied cults.
What's the sound of the antscollective heartbeat?
I don't pretend to know.
Nor why they didn't attend tothe peonies this second pandemic
(47:39):
summer.
No swarms of legs and mandiblescollecting seeping sweet from
pipe buds.
No tiny bodies loosening thelayer, all I could do was hope
and wrap wire around the leaves,offer the flowers a place to
rest their heavy heads if theyblossomed in the churn.
(48:02):
And yes, the petaled clouds didopen on their own time, creating
layered rooms of perfume towander through.
Then, the rain.
Before the wreck of wind andwater, I cut three stems for the
altar and its silver blue cloth.
The end.
Place the vase in the center asushering.
(48:26):
This will not be the last timeit will rain this hard, nor be
this hot.
Soon, we'll stop saying thehottest year, the wettest year.
We will be the churn, settingthe graphs on fire, marking the
records with our collectivebreath, singing into the
emergence of what comes next.
(48:47):
Life in the mandibles, life inthe root hairs, the ants, the
rain, the peonies, certainly themilkweed who assert a new shoot
every time I turn around,singing the same ongoing
insistent song.
Joshua Croke (49:07):
To create a different kind of world that
values life and is in awe oflife.
Tamika said this before readingher poem, and it's so resonant
with what we're exploring inthis first episode of Queer for
Cities.
In order to participate activelyand sustainably in change work,
we need to believe that a betterfuture is possible, that a
(49:30):
joyful and liberated city ispossible, that a sustainable and
thriving world is possible.
I'm going to leave a dot dot dothere because we're going to come
back next week with a part twoof this opening episode.
In part two, we're going to hearmore from MG Xiong, the director
of programs for theMassachusetts Transgender
Political Coalition, or MTPC,where we'll talk about imagining
(49:53):
trans futures, the resources weneed to get there, And more hope
you'll come back.
You're listening to queer forcities.
I'm your host, Joshua Croak, andI'm out to make queer a joyful
norm.
You can hear us loud and queerwherever you get your podcasts.
And on WICN 90.
5 FM Worcester's only NPRaffiliate station, Jack trip is
(50:17):
our assistant producer.
And Giuliano D'Orazio is ouraudio engineer and music
producer.
You can learn more about ourshow.
Send us a voice memo and more atqueerforcities.
com.
(50:44):
Hey folks, it's josh.
Do you have challenges in yourcommunity that require
collaborative and creativesolutions?
My team specializes in formingand facilitating collaborative
partnerships and findingcreative solutions to community
challenges And i'd love to talkwith you about working together
I also am available to speak ontopics of queer identity
equitable community developmentand cultivating inclusive
(51:06):
creative ecosystems You Send mean email at josh at
queerforcities.
com to find a time to explorepossibilities together.
Hey Queer for Cities fans! Didyou know that we've got merch?
We've got a growing list ofoptions over at queerforcities.
(51:27):
com slash store where you canrep merch from tees to totes
that support the creation ofqueer media like our Queer for
Cities podcast.
What do you want to see in thestore?
Send us a DM on Instagram atqueerforcities.
See you in the streets!
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