June 20, 2024 • 38 mins
Queer Life Stories is back with our second series - exploring stories from the LGBTIQA+ community here in Tasmania, Australia.
This week's episode is something a little different. I'm joined by Simone-Lisa and Dave and we have a conversation about what I in the LGBTIQA+ acronym means and explore some of the stigma and misconceptions around intersex variations.
Queer Life Stories: The Second Series is made possible with the incredible support of Working It Out.
This podcast is produced by North West Pride. You can contact Garry and the Queer Life Stories team by emailing: nwpride@outlook.com Follow Queer Life Stories on Facebook and Instagram. Please, reach out if you're interested in telling your story. :)
Thanks for listening.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
This is Gary Wakefield and you're listening to Queer Life Stories.
(00:16):
Our podcast is recorded in lutruwita, home of the Palawa people.
We acknowledge the traditional owners of country, their diversity, histories and knowledge,
and their continuing connections to land and community.
We also acknowledge LGBTIQA+ advocates, friends and allies,
whose courage and strengths have helped to make this a more just society
(00:40):
for lesbian, gay, bisexual, gender diverse and intersex populations and their families.
This week we're doing something a little different and I've got two special guests with us today
to have a discussion around the I in the LGBTIQA plus acronym.
Do you two want to introduce yourselves?
(01:03):
I'm Dave, I'm intersex. I was diagnosed in 2021.
I was always wondering what was different about me and I always seem to be a bit different.
So I got diagnosed there at Urology in the Royal Hubbard Hospital
and it's been me for the last three years and I'm exploring my gender identity ever since.
Great, thank you. That is so cool.
(01:24):
So I'm Simone-Lisa. I identify in the Mafia alphabet
and I also have lived experience as an intersex parent
and I work in advocacy for all things intersexy here in Tasmania and abroad.
(01:49):
Fantastic. Well thank you both for joining me today.
I really wanted this to be a bit of an information kind of session but really conversational.
So I've got some questions that I think people might have, some questions that I have
and yeah I hope we have a really awesome discussion today.
That'd be great.
That'd be cool. I've got questions too.
(02:11):
Excellent.
When did you start getting grey hair in your head?
You hear it say well too.
I've been salt and pepper for many years.
The first thing we should talk about is the fact that eye has been in the acronym for such a long time
and it's probably the one letter in that acronym that people don't understand the most.
(02:32):
It's really invisible.
Yeah.
I have spent so much time talking to people that are all around the eye
or very far away from the eye but still in the acronym
and them not knowing exactly what it means
or having a definition that's not true.
So when we look at the eye we're looking at people that have atypical hormones
(02:57):
or atypical chromosomes or atypical internal reproductive organs
or atypical external genitalia.
It's really, really wide and we use the eye to give,
it's an umbrella term, to give community to about 1.7% of the population.
So it's not a sex, it's not a gender, it's not an identity.
(03:21):
It's kind of like when you give a cohort a name like Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders.
So it's just an umbrella term used to give communities
so then people can talk to other people that have got similar life experiences
or have had similar bodies so then people can talk to people.
And before I got diagnosed with intersex I didn't even know what the eye was myself
(03:45):
and didn't even know what the intersex was either.
It was just something that got thrown upon me at my appointment at Darryl Hubbard Hospital
and didn't really tell me much about it so I had to go back and look it up
and I had to reach out to the community and see my list.
It was kind enough to come over to my house and explain everything to me.
Yeah but without that language you would have been lost.
(04:06):
And having that language used, the eye, the intersex, gave you somewhere to start
so you could actually Google it and find out what it meant.
Yeah now I know what I am and I can explore what I want to be
and I've been non-binary since then.
I've always been a bit more feminine than I've been mainly
so I just always thought I was a bit different and a bit weird
(04:27):
so it was finally good just to have a firm idea of what I am and who I am.
Well considering intersex is a very typical part of our species diversity, you're not weird.
When you say typical what kind of statistics are around it?
So how common is this?
1.7% of the population but there's 40 plus variations of variations within those variations
(04:52):
and some of them don't even have names and there's different birth rates
and there could be, you could have more than one variation.
Okay, can you share some examples of what those variations might be for people?
Okay, well cool. I can give you my young person's variation which is Cormons syndrome
(05:13):
and that's where the pituitary gland is atypical.
It's not connected to the olfactory bulb so my young person doesn't have a sense of smell
and because the pituitary gland is atypical there are quite a few hormones
that my young person doesn't make and that includes testosterone.
So my young person didn't go through a typical puberty
(05:35):
and didn't have secondary sex characteristics until they started hormone replacement therapy
and they also had osteopenia and osteoporosis due to the lack of hormone.
Because without hormone you get brittle bones, your bone density reduces
and you also get really, really tired in the afternoons
(05:59):
because sex hormone actually gives you drive and gives you capacity to do things.
So if you think of nanos that have nanonaps, the reason they have nanonaps
is because of a lack of sex hormone because as you get older typically your sex hormone reduces
but if you don't have it in the first place then you're constantly tired,
(06:21):
you could be labelled lazy, you could be labelled a wide range of things which aren't true
and it makes it more difficult for you to get a diagnosis when people are labelling you with something else.
And they never really told me what my variation was, they just said you've got intersex,
you've got low testosterone and you've got different genitals to the normal male population
(06:44):
so they just said that and they never really explained it fully to me as well.
That is a shame and that's a lack of understanding within the medical world
and especially our specialists here but luckily we have a few programs at the moment like Better Lives
that actually addresses clinicians' lack of knowledge to give them more understanding
(07:09):
on how to support someone like Dave through a diagnosis.
And honestly you are typical for our species.
It's like I'm typical for my species but it doesn't make it helpful when you need support.
It's been hard, they didn't even tell us about any of the support groups or anything,
(07:32):
they just said this is what it is and they said okay we're going to book you an appointment
to get a blood test and just to see about your hormones and stuff
and they didn't actually want to tell me anything else, they just said this is intersex
and I had to go away and Google it and I had to go on Facebook and go into some groups for the community
and find out what was going on and stuff so it was really frustrating not to have a full actual conversation
(07:58):
about what intersex was and what's going on and stuff.
It just gave me a small spiel about, you know, it's intersex.
They gave me a little bit about different chromosomes and stuff but that's about it
and then they just said okay we're going to give you these blood tests and stuff
and then you can come back and we'll figure out what to do next.
It must have been kind of overwhelming to get told this word, this intersex word
(08:23):
and then not really any information about what that meant for you.
Yeah it was just crazy and then they just told me that I was going to go to get a scan done of my groin area
and then I was just going to do all these other stuff and they didn't really actually explain
what they were looking for and what was going on and so it was just so confusing
and overwhelming at the time.
Yeah absolutely.
(08:45):
Can I ask what led you to going to getting checked out?
Like how did this diagnosis come about if you don't mind sharing?
Well I'm just after my parents died I was thinking because my genitals weren't normal
I was just trying to figure out what was going on and I talked to my doctor
and she said she would talk to the urology department at the Royal Hobart Hospital.
(09:07):
I got an appointment to go there and it was kind of a nightmare appointment
but they decided to say you know the intersex and I went from there.
So what support are you getting now? You don't have to answer that?
Yeah I've got support with Sam, my support worker.
Talking medical support?
(09:29):
No medical support at the moment no.
My doctor's not really sure what to say and stuff he's just sending me to psychologists and stuff
and he hasn't actually done much of the intersex stuff that I've been talking about.
So you haven't had any hormone replacement therapy?
I did back in 2021 but not after that.
So that was your choice?
That was forced upon me they said we're going to give you testosterone
(09:54):
and we're going to make you use this gel and they didn't actually ask me if I was not binary or anything like that
they just said here we're going to give you testosterone and you applied once or twice a day I can't remember what it was.
So they were forcing an assumed identity on you?
Yeah they were yeah and they said identify as not binary you know I actually weren't very manly and stuff
(10:17):
and I kept telling them that and they just said okay we're just going to give you testosterone and that's it.
Wow that's another thing.
So dismissive isn't it?
Very dismissive.
No one actually really cared much about me being non-binary until I actually started telling people
and then I had some friends on Facebook when I told them that I was intersex and non-binary
they just said I was a freak and all that stuff and my friendship circle shrunk even more than it was so which is a bit weird.
(10:44):
That's terrible terrible to hear.
It's been a crazy ride over the last couple of years.
Do you think it's because people don't ever talk about intersex variations we don't talk about?
Yeah I think so yeah I don't think there's much conversation about that and not many people actually know what it is.
They all just think it's something else and they think oh everyone's just got two sets of genitals and stuff
(11:07):
and they're all this and that so they just want to pigeonhole us all as the same thing
and not actually understand that we're all different.
It's just like everyone in the community is different you know everyone's got different sexualities
and different ways that they identify and stuff but they've just decided to just lump us all into one group and that's it.
Yeah what do you think?
(11:29):
Do you think we should actually look at our education and curriculum here in Tasmania
and see if we can sort of put in some intersexy stuff so then people are a little bit more educated
and have more understanding so you don't or other people don't have the same issues that you've had.
(11:51):
I want to call it discrimination because it is discrimination.
Yeah let's name it up.
Yeah I think that would be good yeah.
So then people don't get that discrimination.
Especially when people should know better and they don't because that education's just not there and it's not taken up
(12:12):
and when you look at the science curriculum and the health curriculum they look at binary bodies and intersex bodies are not binary.
Yeah so it would be good for them to know that and it would be good to have children that actually get told what's going on
so they know what's going on in their body they don't get labelled a freak or something because you know they're not afraid they've got something going on in their body.
(12:37):
Yeah they're a bit of variation.
With a lack of information on your behalf and then somebody labelling you that,
that's going to hurt way more than it should if you had all of the knowledge and information about what variations are or what intersex is.
(12:58):
It would have bounced off more wouldn't it?
It would yeah and it would have made it easier for me to get through instead of feeling well maybe I am a freak because this is what's going on
and you know I don't identify as a manly man and you know all that stuff and I was always seen as different because you know I was never manly
I was always feminine and stuff so everyone just thought that I was always gay or something like that instead of actually knowing that
(13:19):
bodies can be more feminine and stuff without being labelled as gay as well so just like uneducated people that are making just labels up and stuff.
What do you think the most common misconceptions about what intersex is?
Oh pick me, pick me.
Yeah that would be good for you to answer that one.
(13:40):
Okay so most common is that people and this is a slur by the way and I don't really want to use the word, are you okay?
Yeah I'm good.
That they're hermaphrodites and what their belief of a hermaphrodite is, is someone that has both sets of genitalia and can er themselves which is totally wrong.
(14:04):
Yeah that was the first thing that somebody told me when they googled what intersex was, they said oh so you're hermaphrodite? I said no I'm intersex.
I don't have both genitals, I just have different genitals and stuff and they're like oh so you can go and whatever yourself and I'm like no.
Yeah and it's just such wrongness.
Yeah.
I mean there are some species that are hermaphrodites, nematodes, bivalves and some snails and quite a few plants but not any type of mammal at all and we're mammals so you know.
(14:41):
Are there other misconceptions that you are aware of?
Yeah, yeah most people think intersex community they're all gay, all queer.
Well that was going to lead into my next question which is like this podcast, this podcast is called Queer Life Stories but it's a reflection of the LGBTIAQ plus community and there's so many different types of people that fall under that acronym umbrella but are intersex people automatically queer?
(15:11):
A large percentage and I'm talking around 70 but don't quote me, don't quote that number, it's only been on one study that I've read.
I won't quote it but you are being recorded.
Oh no, not the record button.
A large percentage of the population that are under the intersex umbrella see themselves as cisgendered and heterosexual which is the opposite of queer, just saying.
(15:44):
So why do you think, how did the I come to be in the acronym?
Now the acronym, the acronym is all about sex, gender and sexuality, so it's all really really sexy and so when we look at intersex, it's about sex not being binary.
(16:05):
So that's why the I is in there and it's also really good for money because the community has like fuck all and we need a lot of advocacy as what we've explained today, what Dave's experience has been.
There's a lack of advocacy in education, there's a lack of advocacy for reasonable adjustments and supports for people that have innate variations, there's a lack of understanding in medical circles.
(16:34):
I mean I've just spent the last 18 months going to GPs and nurses all around Tasmania, educating them and I have yet to meet someone that has the same knowledge base as I have and these are the people that are looking after our community.
Yeah, there is a, there is a idea that if you go to the doctor, they should be able to tell you what's going on, right?
(16:59):
That is an expectation of most people.
They should be able to find out what's going on.
Correct.
But if they don't have keywords, key knowledge, then they're unable to do that and I think that's what you've had so far.
Yeah and they called in an extra doctor at the Royal because apparently he had a little bit of experience in intersex and he gave me that small, very not so useful information and then he was like oh but we can send you to Melbourne to get surgery and stuff and I'm like why don't you tell me what's going on first before you want to introduce me to intersex.
(17:30):
Before you want to introduce me to your surgeon so it was like oh this is what's going on, this is what we're going to do and they just didn't give me all the information that would have been nice to know before they wanted the surgery stuff.
Yeah, that's called informed consent to do surgeries and historically, surgeons and clinicians don't understand what informed consent really means.
(17:53):
And so they go well this is what we want to do to you, we can't tell you why we want to do this to you but this is what we generally do with this situation without giving you psychosocial supports, peer supports and a full story.
Dave, did they tell you what surgery they wanted to do?
(18:14):
The questions you're asking, I'm not sure about Dave's boundaries and how strong they are but generally we don't ask about someone's variation and we don't ask about the surgeries they've had because if Dave says that, that means anyone listening can find out.
Sorry, I'm just trying to protect you.
(18:36):
It's no problem, thank you.
Yeah, no, that's fine, sorry, thank you.
It's all good.
And you can leave that in there because it's really important for people to understand that asking those questions aren't supportive of someone and somebody might feel as though that they have to answer those questions because somebody's asked.
Yeah, because that's another thing.
(18:58):
How far people feel that they can go with the questions.
That's a real issue for the community because people feel as though if you're in the intersex community that they can ask what's in your pants, which is really really inappropriate.
I mean, I don't think I've ever asked a bloke, walked up to a bloke and said how big's your penis?
(19:24):
I have.
You're gay.
I'm really not into penis.
Oh, we're going off the rails now.
I am like blushing.
(19:47):
Someone Lisa, if you can talk to maybe some of the, some of the forced interventions that doctors and surgeons might.
Wow. So we're talking up high here on the very cool level that I like to talk about.
Generally surgeons like to make someone look more male or look more female.
(20:12):
And so if you're male, some of the surgeries that go with that is a hypospadius surgery.
So that means that if your urethra is an at the tip of your penis, that means that you can't stand urinate, which is a fallacy.
But anyway, and so doctors really, really like to do those surgeries.
Most of them fail and an average amount of surgeries required three hypospadias.
(20:38):
Right. And what that does is that just means that like a person with a penis can stand to urinate.
It just means just sitting down to urinate.
Yeah. And that's it. That's it.
And if that person's comfortable to sit down and urinate.
Yeah. These are the kind of surgeries that are forced on.
Yeah, but it's, it's called function. Standing.
(21:01):
Yeah. Yeah. It's a functional thing.
And so because it's not psychosocial, which it is, and if they use the word functional, then they get away with doing those surgeries because it's functional.
Also, a lot of other surgeries, some people's penises are bent.
(21:23):
And so apparently if you want heteronormative sex to and you want to impregnate someone, you've got to have a straight penis.
So that's got a cord out.
And so those are fixed as well.
Very, very early on, because clearly a six month old baby needs to be able to do heteronormative sex at that age.
So if we look at the female side, we've got clitoroplasties.
(21:45):
That's if your clitoris is too big.
And that's where, what's it called?
The Prager scale comes in.
If it's a measurement from the anus to the tip of either the clitoris or the phallus, if that's more than six centimetres, then you've got a boy.
So if they realise that, hey, this is actually a girl because we've found ovaries, then that clitoris is reduced, which means it's cut down.
(22:14):
And that person has serious nerve damage for life as well as sensation.
Some of the psychosocial issues that come with that is inability to create relationships, inability to form relationships, inability for people to want to look at them, internalised stigma.
(22:39):
And that's just clitoroplasties.
So we've got vulvoplasties.
Vulvoplasties, a lot of these come with aftercare.
One of the aftercare things is dilation.
So dilation is when you get a phallus like symbol thing and put it for half an hour into that child's newly created vagina every day.
(23:03):
Just so then that kid can at some stage have heteronormative penetrative sex with a male.
Sorry.
No, don't apologise.
A lot of these surgeries, Tasmania does a few of them, but Tasmania also likes to do something called jurisdiction shopping, which means that they send people to Victoria to have these surgeries done.
(23:30):
So then they don't have those surgeries on their books with their Medicare codes.
So we don't do those surgeries here, but we're happy to send people over there and we do it all the time.
So then surgeries can happen over there and they can get the Medicare code data on Victoria's plate instead of Tasmania's plate.
We do a lot of hypospatious surgeries down here.
(23:53):
Oh, and the cordale surgery.
So with the cordale surgeries, to find out how bent that penis is going to be, they actually put an electric shock through that child's penis.
Holy shit.
Just to see, and we did this last year to at least two babies.
Are there surgeries that can be done at a later age?
(24:16):
Good question. Some of them, no, because we have paediatric codes, right?
So it's okay to do it to a child, but those codes don't transfer to adult codes.
As far as Medicare goes, but surgically, surgically can get those surgeries be done?
At that individual's cost.
As an adult, yeah.
(24:37):
At that individual's cost, not under Medicare.
Sure.
Yeah. So you're looking at, for example, if somebody wanted something done as an adult that isn't a hypospatious surgery, they would have to pay for it themselves.
(24:58):
And there'd be no Medicare back.
Yeah.
So my son had a hypospatious surgery when he was 18. It was his choice.
He wanted to see if he could procreate in a way that was going to not need a turkey baster.
And when he was going through that, which he's very happy about the outcome of that, he found out that he had the secondary.
(25:25):
So he has two variations of sex characteristics. I've just brought the mood down with all of that.
No, not at all. I think it, I mean, the mood is appropriate to the conversation.
I think the fact that these surgeries are done so flippantly.
Well, the surgery that Dave wants, which we're not going to talk about, is given free to children under the age of 14.
(25:55):
Right.
But Dave is no longer 14.
I look it.
And he has been advised it is exceedingly expensive and not in anywhere near what you could actually go and do.
No, it's not. Even the consult to the doctor was something like $300 or something just to have him tell me this is what I can do and stuff.
(26:20):
So I did that a couple of years ago and still paying that off because it was very expensive for me.
And it was just different just to hear that you got a private hospital to get it all done.
Yeah. So I guess the fight there, the advocacy there is that we need to get Medicare to cover these things as an adult, right?
(26:42):
As you were just magically saying, I was at a conference two weeks ago in Canberra where the federal health and aged care minister was there.
And I asked him that question and he took it on notice and he will eventually get back to me with an answer, apparently.
(27:05):
So here's a question.
Sure.
Do intersex people have hobbies like everyone else?
Well, I certainly do. I watch AFL. I do my own little podcast and stuff and do everything like a normal person does.
I just do my photography as well and I just do everything like a normal person would.
(27:26):
Nothing's really changed. Just my diagnosis and stuff.
But it has changed some people's view of me as well. They've decided to label me as something that I'm not.
They just go, oh, you're a freak because this is what's going on. I'm just like, no, I'm not a freak. I'm just different.
You're you.
Yeah. I'm just Dave.
But you've always been Dave, haven't you?
(27:48):
I have, yeah.
Now you're Dave with a little bit more knowledge.
Yeah.
Someone like, is that an actual question that you've heard from people asking, do people with intersex variations have hobbies?
Well, it's more of what do they do? Who are they? There is just such a blankness to understanding.
Sorry. It's just so bizarre to me that there would be people that don't think of people as people. Do you know what I mean?
(28:16):
Like that just blows my mind a little bit.
I mean, and it's all about what's in your pants. But we wear pants. So unless you wear a dress and then it's not pants. But you know.
The point is we cover it, whether it's a fig leaf or a piece of clothing, it's usually covered.
And it's got nothing to do with anyone else.
(28:37):
No.
But the one that really annoys me is, oh, does that mean you've got both the penis and vagina? I'm like, no. And they're like, does that mean that you're gay now? I'm like, no.
Yeah, it's all those fallacies and things that are perpetuated by the media and TV programs.
(28:59):
I saw this one TV program. It was a medical show that was a decade old when I saw it. And they perpetuated the word the slow.
I mean, when you say hermaphrodites, people go, well, that's the right word to use. It's a technical. No, no, it's not.
I mean, if we take an example, I can call myself a dyke. Nobody else in this room can call me a dyke.
(29:22):
And it's the same with hermaphrodite. It's an inappropriate slow that's been used historically to quieten, to other, to abuse, to make trauma happen to people.
And it's not an appropriate label to use for it.
I had seen on Facebook, there was a story about intersex people on, I think it was Daily Mail Facebook page.
(29:47):
And there was a guy there that was just saying, they're hermaphrodites. They're hermaphrodites. They're this or that. They're hermaphrodites.
So he kept saying that over and over again. He said, I'm an expert, so I know what they are. They're not intersex. They're hermaphrodites. Stop calling them intersex.
So it's like, what are you, an idiot?
Yeah, that's pretty uneducated, isn't it?
Yeah, it's very uneducated. And unfortunately, it happens all the time because people choose to hear what they want to believe.
(30:16):
Yeah. And hopefully, having a conversation like we're having today is one of those steps in the right direction of at least talking about it and trying to get some of the correct information out into the world.
That's one thing I've been wanting to do. And every time someone asks me about my intersex and stuff, I've just told them all the stuff that I can and hope to give them information.
I've actually had to tell my ex-girlfriend, you know, what was going on and stuff. It was a bit of an awkward conversation, you know, because I told her that I was non-binary.
(30:43):
And she was like, is it bad that I see you as just a male? I said, kind of, because I'm not fully male. Part of me is feminine.
You always knew this because, you know, I'm tender. I'm not fully manly. I don't do manly things. You know, I'm still Dave, and I'm not fully a man, you know.
And she was just like, oh, but I only want to see you as a male. And what if you decided to follow through and become a female?
(31:08):
And I'm like, well, then if you love me as Dave, you should love me as whoever I'm after that.
So it's just a bit of a conversation that was a bit awkward and stuff. But, you know, I was trying to educate her on what's going on and stuff.
I think towards the end of our relationship, she might have figured out a little bit, but it's been a little bit hard for her to actually gauge with all that stuff.
She was just trying to work out, well, if you're intersex and you're non-binary, what does that make me? Does that make me gay? Does that make me, I don't know.
(31:35):
Labels, man.
How common is intersex gender transitioning?
Ah, well, just like every other population, we have the same percentage as every other population of transgender, same as other populations of same-sex-attracted people, and the same as other populations of queer people.
(32:06):
So we're not sort of more anything else, but we do have a large percentage that is, or a significantly large percentage that is heterosexual and cisgendered.
So, I mean, yeah, it's interesting to look at the statistics, I suppose.
(32:29):
But if you're walking down the street, you'd be walking past people from the intersex community all the time, and you wouldn't know.
You just wouldn't know.
Now, the other thing is, how has your family, your siblings, taken this on board?
They've been very supportive. I think my exploration into my gender identity has actually brought myself and my sister a bit closer.
(32:54):
We've been talking about stuff like that. We went shopping for clothes once and stuff like that.
And my family are just like, well, we're still going to love you as who you are and stuff.
You're going to still be our brother or sister, still going to be family and stuff.
And we just want to know what's going on so we can help support you and try and work out what's going on and how we should identify you, because I'm not binary.
(33:16):
And they're like, well, what are you? Are you he, they, or they and stuff? So I'm he, they. So I do that.
And they just try and go there and try and explain what's going on. They try and do learn as well. So they've been very supportive.
Was that gender identity exploration something you were doing before you got the intersex diagnosis?
(33:37):
When I was younger, I was sort of exploring that because I always seemed to think that I was born the wrong gender and stuff.
And I was just trying to work out what was going on. But then this whole intersex came along and I was like, and they just asked me, what is your gender?
Do you identify as something else? And I'm like, I actually never thought of that before.
I thought about it a little bit, but not fully. And then I thought, well, maybe I could explore my gender identity and actually find out if I am fully male or if I am part female, what am I?
(34:06):
And stuff. So it was just sort of a bit of exploration of things after being asked about my gender at my hospital appointment.
Yeah, that is very, very wonderful that your family have taken that on board.
So Lisa, if someone's interested in finding out more information, what's the best place for them to go? What's the best resource?
(34:30):
Working it out.
Why did you say it like that?
Because I can. Because they have me there and I'm probably going to be the best positioned person here in Tasmania to get the supports that they may or may not need.
(34:53):
And I have a really good knowledge of most of the variations and how they present. So I'm able to better help and support someone.
Other people within working it out have been given training by myself, so they're able to support someone as well.
Great. Dave, if there was one thing, one message you wanted to get across today to people who are listening.
(35:19):
Well, we're all different. We're not freaks. We're just normal people that are living our lives. We're a bit different.
But we're still the same sort of person that we were before we got diagnosed with being intersex and stuff. But we don't need you to ask stupid questions and try and gauge if we're gay or anything.
Just accept us as we are and stop being judgmental and stop being ignorant about it all.
(35:44):
I like that.
If you had one message to the people listening, what would that be?
Become educated. Understand that intersex is just another community label.
And treat people with respect. Treat people the way you want to be treated. And never think about what's in someone's pants unless, of course, you're trying to get into them.
(36:12):
That's good advice from one, Lisa.
It's been good talking about this and hopefully it helps a lot of people that are confused about what they are and confused about what intersex is and stuff.
So hopefully it's been a good learning experience for them.
Thank you so much for inviting me on today. I'm hoping I've given some information and it's been fun spending time with you, Gary.
(36:36):
Well, thank you both for coming in. I really appreciate it and I hope it's been fun and I hope that the message gets out there and that people start to learn.
So thank you so much for sharing and talking.
Thank you very much and it's all good.
Thank you, Dave.
Thank you very much.
If this episode has raised any issues for you, please take some time to reflect and ensure you reach out for support if you need it.
(37:03):
If you are listening in Tasmania, you can contact Working It Out via their website or calling 6231 1200 during business hours.
If you need immediate mental health support, please contact Lifeline on 13 1114 or beyondblue on 1300 22 4636.
(37:25):
Both services are available 24 7.
If you would like to get in touch or share your story on this podcast, please send us an email at NWPride at outlook.com.
This podcast is produced by Northwest Pride, a community group based across the north, northwest and west coast of Tasmania.
They host events and social inclusion opportunities for anyone who is a part of the LGBTIAQ plus community, their friends and allies.
(37:52):
This podcast is made possible by the support of Working It Out.
You can hear future episodes and all of our past episodes on Spotify, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcast from.
Please follow, rate and review if you can.
It does help us to reach more folks who might enjoy or benefit from hearing these amazing life stories.
We'll be back soon.
(38:14):
Take care of yourself and each other.
This is Gary Wakefield and you're listening to Queer Life Stories.
(00:16):
Our podcast is recorded in lutruwita, home of the Palawa people.
We acknowledge the traditional owners of country, their diversity, histories and knowledge,
and their continuing connections to land and community.
We also acknowledge LGBTIQA+ advocates, friends and allies,
whose courage and strengths have helped to make this a more just society
(00:40):
for lesbian, gay, bisexual, gender diverse and intersex populations and their families.
This week we're doing something a little different and I've got two special guests with us today
to have a discussion around the I in the LGBTIQA plus acronym.
Do you two want to introduce yourselves?
(01:03):
I'm Dave, I'm intersex. I was diagnosed in 2021.
I was always wondering what was different about me and I always seem to be a bit different.
So I got diagnosed there at Urology in the Royal Hubbard Hospital
and it's been me for the last three years and I'm exploring my gender identity ever since.
Great, thank you. That is so cool.
(01:24):
So I'm Simone-Lisa. I identify in the Mafia alphabet
and I also have lived experience as an intersex parent
and I work in advocacy for all things intersexy here in Tasmania and abroad.
(01:49):
Fantastic. Well thank you both for joining me today.
I really wanted this to be a bit of an information kind of session but really conversational.
So I've got some questions that I think people might have, some questions that I have
and yeah I hope we have a really awesome discussion today.
That'd be great.
That'd be cool. I've got questions too.
(02:11):
Excellent.
When did you start getting grey hair in your head?
You hear it say well too.
I've been salt and pepper for many years.
The first thing we should talk about is the fact that eye has been in the acronym for such a long time
and it's probably the one letter in that acronym that people don't understand the most.
(02:32):
It's really invisible.
Yeah.
I have spent so much time talking to people that are all around the eye
or very far away from the eye but still in the acronym
and them not knowing exactly what it means
or having a definition that's not true.
So when we look at the eye we're looking at people that have atypical hormones
(02:57):
or atypical chromosomes or atypical internal reproductive organs
or atypical external genitalia.
It's really, really wide and we use the eye to give,
it's an umbrella term, to give community to about 1.7% of the population.
So it's not a sex, it's not a gender, it's not an identity.
(03:21):
It's kind of like when you give a cohort a name like Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders.
So it's just an umbrella term used to give communities
so then people can talk to other people that have got similar life experiences
or have had similar bodies so then people can talk to people.
And before I got diagnosed with intersex I didn't even know what the eye was myself
(03:45):
and didn't even know what the intersex was either.
It was just something that got thrown upon me at my appointment at Darryl Hubbard Hospital
and didn't really tell me much about it so I had to go back and look it up
and I had to reach out to the community and see my list.
It was kind enough to come over to my house and explain everything to me.
Yeah but without that language you would have been lost.
(04:06):
And having that language used, the eye, the intersex, gave you somewhere to start
so you could actually Google it and find out what it meant.
Yeah now I know what I am and I can explore what I want to be
and I've been non-binary since then.
I've always been a bit more feminine than I've been mainly
so I just always thought I was a bit different and a bit weird
(04:27):
so it was finally good just to have a firm idea of what I am and who I am.
Well considering intersex is a very typical part of our species diversity, you're not weird.
When you say typical what kind of statistics are around it?
So how common is this?
1.7% of the population but there's 40 plus variations of variations within those variations
(04:52):
and some of them don't even have names and there's different birth rates
and there could be, you could have more than one variation.
Okay, can you share some examples of what those variations might be for people?
Okay, well cool. I can give you my young person's variation which is Cormons syndrome
(05:13):
and that's where the pituitary gland is atypical.
It's not connected to the olfactory bulb so my young person doesn't have a sense of smell
and because the pituitary gland is atypical there are quite a few hormones
that my young person doesn't make and that includes testosterone.
So my young person didn't go through a typical puberty
(05:35):
and didn't have secondary sex characteristics until they started hormone replacement therapy
and they also had osteopenia and osteoporosis due to the lack of hormone.
Because without hormone you get brittle bones, your bone density reduces
and you also get really, really tired in the afternoons
(05:59):
because sex hormone actually gives you drive and gives you capacity to do things.
So if you think of nanos that have nanonaps, the reason they have nanonaps
is because of a lack of sex hormone because as you get older typically your sex hormone reduces
but if you don't have it in the first place then you're constantly tired,
(06:21):
you could be labelled lazy, you could be labelled a wide range of things which aren't true
and it makes it more difficult for you to get a diagnosis when people are labelling you with something else.
And they never really told me what my variation was, they just said you've got intersex,
you've got low testosterone and you've got different genitals to the normal male population
(06:44):
so they just said that and they never really explained it fully to me as well.
That is a shame and that's a lack of understanding within the medical world
and especially our specialists here but luckily we have a few programs at the moment like Better Lives
that actually addresses clinicians' lack of knowledge to give them more understanding
(07:09):
on how to support someone like Dave through a diagnosis.
And honestly you are typical for our species.
It's like I'm typical for my species but it doesn't make it helpful when you need support.
It's been hard, they didn't even tell us about any of the support groups or anything,
(07:32):
they just said this is what it is and they said okay we're going to book you an appointment
to get a blood test and just to see about your hormones and stuff
and they didn't actually want to tell me anything else, they just said this is intersex
and I had to go away and Google it and I had to go on Facebook and go into some groups for the community
and find out what was going on and stuff so it was really frustrating not to have a full actual conversation
(07:58):
about what intersex was and what's going on and stuff.
It just gave me a small spiel about, you know, it's intersex.
They gave me a little bit about different chromosomes and stuff but that's about it
and then they just said okay we're going to give you these blood tests and stuff
and then you can come back and we'll figure out what to do next.
It must have been kind of overwhelming to get told this word, this intersex word
(08:23):
and then not really any information about what that meant for you.
Yeah it was just crazy and then they just told me that I was going to go to get a scan done of my groin area
and then I was just going to do all these other stuff and they didn't really actually explain
what they were looking for and what was going on and so it was just so confusing
and overwhelming at the time.
Yeah absolutely.
(08:45):
Can I ask what led you to going to getting checked out?
Like how did this diagnosis come about if you don't mind sharing?
Well I'm just after my parents died I was thinking because my genitals weren't normal
I was just trying to figure out what was going on and I talked to my doctor
and she said she would talk to the urology department at the Royal Hobart Hospital.
(09:07):
I got an appointment to go there and it was kind of a nightmare appointment
but they decided to say you know the intersex and I went from there.
So what support are you getting now? You don't have to answer that?
Yeah I've got support with Sam, my support worker.
Talking medical support?
(09:29):
No medical support at the moment no.
My doctor's not really sure what to say and stuff he's just sending me to psychologists and stuff
and he hasn't actually done much of the intersex stuff that I've been talking about.
So you haven't had any hormone replacement therapy?
I did back in 2021 but not after that.
So that was your choice?
That was forced upon me they said we're going to give you testosterone
(09:54):
and we're going to make you use this gel and they didn't actually ask me if I was not binary or anything like that
they just said here we're going to give you testosterone and you applied once or twice a day I can't remember what it was.
So they were forcing an assumed identity on you?
Yeah they were yeah and they said identify as not binary you know I actually weren't very manly and stuff
(10:17):
and I kept telling them that and they just said okay we're just going to give you testosterone and that's it.
Wow that's another thing.
So dismissive isn't it?
Very dismissive.
No one actually really cared much about me being non-binary until I actually started telling people
and then I had some friends on Facebook when I told them that I was intersex and non-binary
they just said I was a freak and all that stuff and my friendship circle shrunk even more than it was so which is a bit weird.
(10:44):
That's terrible terrible to hear.
It's been a crazy ride over the last couple of years.
Do you think it's because people don't ever talk about intersex variations we don't talk about?
Yeah I think so yeah I don't think there's much conversation about that and not many people actually know what it is.
They all just think it's something else and they think oh everyone's just got two sets of genitals and stuff
(11:07):
and they're all this and that so they just want to pigeonhole us all as the same thing
and not actually understand that we're all different.
It's just like everyone in the community is different you know everyone's got different sexualities
and different ways that they identify and stuff but they've just decided to just lump us all into one group and that's it.
Yeah what do you think?
(11:29):
Do you think we should actually look at our education and curriculum here in Tasmania
and see if we can sort of put in some intersexy stuff so then people are a little bit more educated
and have more understanding so you don't or other people don't have the same issues that you've had.
(11:51):
I want to call it discrimination because it is discrimination.
Yeah let's name it up.
Yeah I think that would be good yeah.
So then people don't get that discrimination.
Especially when people should know better and they don't because that education's just not there and it's not taken up
(12:12):
and when you look at the science curriculum and the health curriculum they look at binary bodies and intersex bodies are not binary.
Yeah so it would be good for them to know that and it would be good to have children that actually get told what's going on
so they know what's going on in their body they don't get labelled a freak or something because you know they're not afraid they've got something going on in their body.
(12:37):
Yeah they're a bit of variation.
With a lack of information on your behalf and then somebody labelling you that,
that's going to hurt way more than it should if you had all of the knowledge and information about what variations are or what intersex is.
(12:58):
It would have bounced off more wouldn't it?
It would yeah and it would have made it easier for me to get through instead of feeling well maybe I am a freak because this is what's going on
and you know I don't identify as a manly man and you know all that stuff and I was always seen as different because you know I was never manly
I was always feminine and stuff so everyone just thought that I was always gay or something like that instead of actually knowing that
(13:19):
bodies can be more feminine and stuff without being labelled as gay as well so just like uneducated people that are making just labels up and stuff.
What do you think the most common misconceptions about what intersex is?
Oh pick me, pick me.
Yeah that would be good for you to answer that one.
(13:40):
Okay so most common is that people and this is a slur by the way and I don't really want to use the word, are you okay?
Yeah I'm good.
That they're hermaphrodites and what their belief of a hermaphrodite is, is someone that has both sets of genitalia and can er themselves which is totally wrong.
(14:04):
Yeah that was the first thing that somebody told me when they googled what intersex was, they said oh so you're hermaphrodite? I said no I'm intersex.
I don't have both genitals, I just have different genitals and stuff and they're like oh so you can go and whatever yourself and I'm like no.
Yeah and it's just such wrongness.
Yeah.
I mean there are some species that are hermaphrodites, nematodes, bivalves and some snails and quite a few plants but not any type of mammal at all and we're mammals so you know.
(14:41):
Are there other misconceptions that you are aware of?
Yeah, yeah most people think intersex community they're all gay, all queer.
Well that was going to lead into my next question which is like this podcast, this podcast is called Queer Life Stories but it's a reflection of the LGBTIAQ plus community and there's so many different types of people that fall under that acronym umbrella but are intersex people automatically queer?
(15:11):
A large percentage and I'm talking around 70 but don't quote me, don't quote that number, it's only been on one study that I've read.
I won't quote it but you are being recorded.
Oh no, not the record button.
A large percentage of the population that are under the intersex umbrella see themselves as cisgendered and heterosexual which is the opposite of queer, just saying.
(15:44):
So why do you think, how did the I come to be in the acronym?
Now the acronym, the acronym is all about sex, gender and sexuality, so it's all really really sexy and so when we look at intersex, it's about sex not being binary.
(16:05):
So that's why the I is in there and it's also really good for money because the community has like fuck all and we need a lot of advocacy as what we've explained today, what Dave's experience has been.
There's a lack of advocacy in education, there's a lack of advocacy for reasonable adjustments and supports for people that have innate variations, there's a lack of understanding in medical circles.
(16:34):
I mean I've just spent the last 18 months going to GPs and nurses all around Tasmania, educating them and I have yet to meet someone that has the same knowledge base as I have and these are the people that are looking after our community.
Yeah, there is a, there is a idea that if you go to the doctor, they should be able to tell you what's going on, right?
(16:59):
That is an expectation of most people.
They should be able to find out what's going on.
Correct.
But if they don't have keywords, key knowledge, then they're unable to do that and I think that's what you've had so far.
Yeah and they called in an extra doctor at the Royal because apparently he had a little bit of experience in intersex and he gave me that small, very not so useful information and then he was like oh but we can send you to Melbourne to get surgery and stuff and I'm like why don't you tell me what's going on first before you want to introduce me to intersex.
(17:30):
Before you want to introduce me to your surgeon so it was like oh this is what's going on, this is what we're going to do and they just didn't give me all the information that would have been nice to know before they wanted the surgery stuff.
Yeah, that's called informed consent to do surgeries and historically, surgeons and clinicians don't understand what informed consent really means.
(17:53):
And so they go well this is what we want to do to you, we can't tell you why we want to do this to you but this is what we generally do with this situation without giving you psychosocial supports, peer supports and a full story.
Dave, did they tell you what surgery they wanted to do?
(18:14):
The questions you're asking, I'm not sure about Dave's boundaries and how strong they are but generally we don't ask about someone's variation and we don't ask about the surgeries they've had because if Dave says that, that means anyone listening can find out.
Sorry, I'm just trying to protect you.
(18:36):
It's no problem, thank you.
Yeah, no, that's fine, sorry, thank you.
It's all good.
And you can leave that in there because it's really important for people to understand that asking those questions aren't supportive of someone and somebody might feel as though that they have to answer those questions because somebody's asked.
Yeah, because that's another thing.
(18:58):
How far people feel that they can go with the questions.
That's a real issue for the community because people feel as though if you're in the intersex community that they can ask what's in your pants, which is really really inappropriate.
I mean, I don't think I've ever asked a bloke, walked up to a bloke and said how big's your penis?
(19:24):
I have.
You're gay.
I'm really not into penis.
Oh, we're going off the rails now.
I am like blushing.
(19:47):
Someone Lisa, if you can talk to maybe some of the, some of the forced interventions that doctors and surgeons might.
Wow. So we're talking up high here on the very cool level that I like to talk about.
Generally surgeons like to make someone look more male or look more female.
(20:12):
And so if you're male, some of the surgeries that go with that is a hypospadius surgery.
So that means that if your urethra is an at the tip of your penis, that means that you can't stand urinate, which is a fallacy.
But anyway, and so doctors really, really like to do those surgeries.
Most of them fail and an average amount of surgeries required three hypospadias.
(20:38):
Right. And what that does is that just means that like a person with a penis can stand to urinate.
It just means just sitting down to urinate.
Yeah. And that's it. That's it.
And if that person's comfortable to sit down and urinate.
Yeah. These are the kind of surgeries that are forced on.
Yeah, but it's, it's called function. Standing.
(21:01):
Yeah. Yeah. It's a functional thing.
And so because it's not psychosocial, which it is, and if they use the word functional, then they get away with doing those surgeries because it's functional.
Also, a lot of other surgeries, some people's penises are bent.
(21:23):
And so apparently if you want heteronormative sex to and you want to impregnate someone, you've got to have a straight penis.
So that's got a cord out.
And so those are fixed as well.
Very, very early on, because clearly a six month old baby needs to be able to do heteronormative sex at that age.
So if we look at the female side, we've got clitoroplasties.
(21:45):
That's if your clitoris is too big.
And that's where, what's it called?
The Prager scale comes in.
If it's a measurement from the anus to the tip of either the clitoris or the phallus, if that's more than six centimetres, then you've got a boy.
So if they realise that, hey, this is actually a girl because we've found ovaries, then that clitoris is reduced, which means it's cut down.
(22:14):
And that person has serious nerve damage for life as well as sensation.
Some of the psychosocial issues that come with that is inability to create relationships, inability to form relationships, inability for people to want to look at them, internalised stigma.
(22:39):
And that's just clitoroplasties.
So we've got vulvoplasties.
Vulvoplasties, a lot of these come with aftercare.
One of the aftercare things is dilation.
So dilation is when you get a phallus like symbol thing and put it for half an hour into that child's newly created vagina every day.
(23:03):
Just so then that kid can at some stage have heteronormative penetrative sex with a male.
Sorry.
No, don't apologise.
A lot of these surgeries, Tasmania does a few of them, but Tasmania also likes to do something called jurisdiction shopping, which means that they send people to Victoria to have these surgeries done.
(23:30):
So then they don't have those surgeries on their books with their Medicare codes.
So we don't do those surgeries here, but we're happy to send people over there and we do it all the time.
So then surgeries can happen over there and they can get the Medicare code data on Victoria's plate instead of Tasmania's plate.
We do a lot of hypospatious surgeries down here.
(23:53):
Oh, and the cordale surgery.
So with the cordale surgeries, to find out how bent that penis is going to be, they actually put an electric shock through that child's penis.
Holy shit.
Just to see, and we did this last year to at least two babies.
Are there surgeries that can be done at a later age?
(24:16):
Good question. Some of them, no, because we have paediatric codes, right?
So it's okay to do it to a child, but those codes don't transfer to adult codes.
As far as Medicare goes, but surgically, surgically can get those surgeries be done?
At that individual's cost.
As an adult, yeah.
(24:37):
At that individual's cost, not under Medicare.
Sure.
Yeah. So you're looking at, for example, if somebody wanted something done as an adult that isn't a hypospatious surgery, they would have to pay for it themselves.
(24:58):
And there'd be no Medicare back.
Yeah.
So my son had a hypospatious surgery when he was 18. It was his choice.
He wanted to see if he could procreate in a way that was going to not need a turkey baster.
And when he was going through that, which he's very happy about the outcome of that, he found out that he had the secondary.
(25:25):
So he has two variations of sex characteristics. I've just brought the mood down with all of that.
No, not at all. I think it, I mean, the mood is appropriate to the conversation.
I think the fact that these surgeries are done so flippantly.
Well, the surgery that Dave wants, which we're not going to talk about, is given free to children under the age of 14.
(25:55):
Right.
But Dave is no longer 14.
I look it.
And he has been advised it is exceedingly expensive and not in anywhere near what you could actually go and do.
No, it's not. Even the consult to the doctor was something like $300 or something just to have him tell me this is what I can do and stuff.
(26:20):
So I did that a couple of years ago and still paying that off because it was very expensive for me.
And it was just different just to hear that you got a private hospital to get it all done.
Yeah. So I guess the fight there, the advocacy there is that we need to get Medicare to cover these things as an adult, right?
(26:42):
As you were just magically saying, I was at a conference two weeks ago in Canberra where the federal health and aged care minister was there.
And I asked him that question and he took it on notice and he will eventually get back to me with an answer, apparently.
(27:05):
So here's a question.
Sure.
Do intersex people have hobbies like everyone else?
Well, I certainly do. I watch AFL. I do my own little podcast and stuff and do everything like a normal person does.
I just do my photography as well and I just do everything like a normal person would.
(27:26):
Nothing's really changed. Just my diagnosis and stuff.
But it has changed some people's view of me as well. They've decided to label me as something that I'm not.
They just go, oh, you're a freak because this is what's going on. I'm just like, no, I'm not a freak. I'm just different.
You're you.
Yeah. I'm just Dave.
But you've always been Dave, haven't you?
(27:48):
I have, yeah.
Now you're Dave with a little bit more knowledge.
Yeah.
Someone like, is that an actual question that you've heard from people asking, do people with intersex variations have hobbies?
Well, it's more of what do they do? Who are they? There is just such a blankness to understanding.
Sorry. It's just so bizarre to me that there would be people that don't think of people as people. Do you know what I mean?
(28:16):
Like that just blows my mind a little bit.
I mean, and it's all about what's in your pants. But we wear pants. So unless you wear a dress and then it's not pants. But you know.
The point is we cover it, whether it's a fig leaf or a piece of clothing, it's usually covered.
And it's got nothing to do with anyone else.
(28:37):
No.
But the one that really annoys me is, oh, does that mean you've got both the penis and vagina? I'm like, no. And they're like, does that mean that you're gay now? I'm like, no.
Yeah, it's all those fallacies and things that are perpetuated by the media and TV programs.
(28:59):
I saw this one TV program. It was a medical show that was a decade old when I saw it. And they perpetuated the word the slow.
I mean, when you say hermaphrodites, people go, well, that's the right word to use. It's a technical. No, no, it's not.
I mean, if we take an example, I can call myself a dyke. Nobody else in this room can call me a dyke.
(29:22):
And it's the same with hermaphrodite. It's an inappropriate slow that's been used historically to quieten, to other, to abuse, to make trauma happen to people.
And it's not an appropriate label to use for it.
I had seen on Facebook, there was a story about intersex people on, I think it was Daily Mail Facebook page.
(29:47):
And there was a guy there that was just saying, they're hermaphrodites. They're hermaphrodites. They're this or that. They're hermaphrodites.
So he kept saying that over and over again. He said, I'm an expert, so I know what they are. They're not intersex. They're hermaphrodites. Stop calling them intersex.
So it's like, what are you, an idiot?
Yeah, that's pretty uneducated, isn't it?
Yeah, it's very uneducated. And unfortunately, it happens all the time because people choose to hear what they want to believe.
(30:16):
Yeah. And hopefully, having a conversation like we're having today is one of those steps in the right direction of at least talking about it and trying to get some of the correct information out into the world.
That's one thing I've been wanting to do. And every time someone asks me about my intersex and stuff, I've just told them all the stuff that I can and hope to give them information.
I've actually had to tell my ex-girlfriend, you know, what was going on and stuff. It was a bit of an awkward conversation, you know, because I told her that I was non-binary.
(30:43):
And she was like, is it bad that I see you as just a male? I said, kind of, because I'm not fully male. Part of me is feminine.
You always knew this because, you know, I'm tender. I'm not fully manly. I don't do manly things. You know, I'm still Dave, and I'm not fully a man, you know.
And she was just like, oh, but I only want to see you as a male. And what if you decided to follow through and become a female?
(31:08):
And I'm like, well, then if you love me as Dave, you should love me as whoever I'm after that.
So it's just a bit of a conversation that was a bit awkward and stuff. But, you know, I was trying to educate her on what's going on and stuff.
I think towards the end of our relationship, she might have figured out a little bit, but it's been a little bit hard for her to actually gauge with all that stuff.
She was just trying to work out, well, if you're intersex and you're non-binary, what does that make me? Does that make me gay? Does that make me, I don't know.
(31:35):
Labels, man.
How common is intersex gender transitioning?
Ah, well, just like every other population, we have the same percentage as every other population of transgender, same as other populations of same-sex-attracted people, and the same as other populations of queer people.
(32:06):
So we're not sort of more anything else, but we do have a large percentage that is, or a significantly large percentage that is heterosexual and cisgendered.
So, I mean, yeah, it's interesting to look at the statistics, I suppose.
(32:29):
But if you're walking down the street, you'd be walking past people from the intersex community all the time, and you wouldn't know.
You just wouldn't know.
Now, the other thing is, how has your family, your siblings, taken this on board?
They've been very supportive. I think my exploration into my gender identity has actually brought myself and my sister a bit closer.
(32:54):
We've been talking about stuff like that. We went shopping for clothes once and stuff like that.
And my family are just like, well, we're still going to love you as who you are and stuff.
You're going to still be our brother or sister, still going to be family and stuff.
And we just want to know what's going on so we can help support you and try and work out what's going on and how we should identify you, because I'm not binary.
(33:16):
And they're like, well, what are you? Are you he, they, or they and stuff? So I'm he, they. So I do that.
And they just try and go there and try and explain what's going on. They try and do learn as well. So they've been very supportive.
Was that gender identity exploration something you were doing before you got the intersex diagnosis?
(33:37):
When I was younger, I was sort of exploring that because I always seemed to think that I was born the wrong gender and stuff.
And I was just trying to work out what was going on. But then this whole intersex came along and I was like, and they just asked me, what is your gender?
Do you identify as something else? And I'm like, I actually never thought of that before.
I thought about it a little bit, but not fully. And then I thought, well, maybe I could explore my gender identity and actually find out if I am fully male or if I am part female, what am I?
(34:06):
And stuff. So it was just sort of a bit of exploration of things after being asked about my gender at my hospital appointment.
Yeah, that is very, very wonderful that your family have taken that on board.
So Lisa, if someone's interested in finding out more information, what's the best place for them to go? What's the best resource?
(34:30):
Working it out.
Why did you say it like that?
Because I can. Because they have me there and I'm probably going to be the best positioned person here in Tasmania to get the supports that they may or may not need.
(34:53):
And I have a really good knowledge of most of the variations and how they present. So I'm able to better help and support someone.
Other people within working it out have been given training by myself, so they're able to support someone as well.
Great. Dave, if there was one thing, one message you wanted to get across today to people who are listening.
(35:19):
Well, we're all different. We're not freaks. We're just normal people that are living our lives. We're a bit different.
But we're still the same sort of person that we were before we got diagnosed with being intersex and stuff. But we don't need you to ask stupid questions and try and gauge if we're gay or anything.
Just accept us as we are and stop being judgmental and stop being ignorant about it all.
(35:44):
I like that.
If you had one message to the people listening, what would that be?
Become educated. Understand that intersex is just another community label.
And treat people with respect. Treat people the way you want to be treated. And never think about what's in someone's pants unless, of course, you're trying to get into them.
(36:12):
That's good advice from one, Lisa.
It's been good talking about this and hopefully it helps a lot of people that are confused about what they are and confused about what intersex is and stuff.
So hopefully it's been a good learning experience for them.
Thank you so much for inviting me on today. I'm hoping I've given some information and it's been fun spending time with you, Gary.
(36:36):
Well, thank you both for coming in. I really appreciate it and I hope it's been fun and I hope that the message gets out there and that people start to learn.
So thank you so much for sharing and talking.
Thank you very much and it's all good.
Thank you, Dave.
Thank you very much.
If this episode has raised any issues for you, please take some time to reflect and ensure you reach out for support if you need it.
(37:03):
If you are listening in Tasmania, you can contact Working It Out via their website or calling 6231 1200 during business hours.
If you need immediate mental health support, please contact Lifeline on 13 1114 or beyondblue on 1300 22 4636.
(37:25):
Both services are available 24 7.
If you would like to get in touch or share your story on this podcast, please send us an email at NWPride at outlook.com.
This podcast is produced by Northwest Pride, a community group based across the north, northwest and west coast of Tasmania.
They host events and social inclusion opportunities for anyone who is a part of the LGBTIAQ plus community, their friends and allies.
(37:52):
This podcast is made possible by the support of Working It Out.
You can hear future episodes and all of our past episodes on Spotify, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcast from.
Please follow, rate and review if you can.
It does help us to reach more folks who might enjoy or benefit from hearing these amazing life stories.
We'll be back soon.
(38:14):
Take care of yourself and each other.
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