How do we transform pain into powerful storytelling? This episode brings together three remarkable creators who are documenting LGBTQ+ experiences through different artistic mediums, each offering unique perspectives on resilience, healing, and joy.
Award-winning journalist Nico Lang takes us behind the scenes of writing "American Teenager: How Trans Kids Are Surviving Hate and Finding Joy in a Turbulent Era." Having spent a year traveling to seven states to document trans youth experiences, Lang shares emotional insights from this journey. Most poignantly, Lang describes connecting with Jack and Augie, trans siblings in Florida who lost access to gender-affirming care through Medicaid cuts while recovering from homelessness. "You could almost see the trauma in their bodies like a second skin," Lang reflects, noting how their story resonated with his own childhood experiences of poverty and family struggles.
The conversation then shifts to Aaron Alon, who has created "The Chosen Ones," a musical exploring the experiences of LGBTQ+ youth in conversion therapy. Despite the dissolution of major conversion therapy organizations like Exodus, Alon's research revealed these practices continue largely unregulated across America. His musical, premiering August 28th through September 6th at Houston's MATCH theater, challenges audiences to see the humanity in all characters while acknowledging the profound harm of these programs. "I hope that shows have the ability to soften people's hearts in a way that debate and policy and activism sometimes can't," Alon explains.
Filmmaker Wayne Chella rounds out the episode, discussing how creating autobiographical films about clergy sexual abuse became a pathway to healing. His emotional recounting of discovering his abuser's name on a list of credibly accused clergy, and subsequently channeling that trauma into his film "Insignificant," demonstrates the transformative power of artistic expression. "Releasing Insignificant into the world was my final act of letting go," Chella shares.
What unites these diverse stories is the power of authentic representation to foster understanding and create change. As Lang powerfully states, "Kindness will save us. Listening to other people's stories will save us." Whether through literature, theater, or film, these creators remind us that behind every headline about anti-trans legislation or religious discrimination are real human beings deserving of dignity, respect, and the space to share their stories.
Queer Voices airs in Houston Texas on 90.1FM KPFT and is heard as a podcast here. Queer Voices hopes to entertain as well as illuminate LGBTQ issues in Houston and beyond. Check out our socials at:
https://www.facebook.com/QueerVoicesKPFT/ and
https://www.instagram.com/queervoices90.1kpft/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello everybody.
This is Queer Voices, a podcastand radio show on KPFT 90.1 FM
that's been on the air forseveral decades as one of the
oldest LGBTQ plus radio shows inthe southern United States.
American Teenager, how TransKids Are Surviving Hate and
(00:27):
Finding Joy in a Turbulent Era.
Nico Lange, as well asaward-winning playwrights behind
the upcoming conversion therapymusical, the Chosen Ones, aaron
Alon, and writer director andproducer Wayne Chella.
Normally we'd play snippets ofeach interview as a preview, but
this episode is packed fromstart to finish, so let's dive
right into contributor EthanMichelle Ganz's interview with
(00:47):
author of American Teenager,nico Lang.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
This is Queer Voices and this is Ethan Michelle Ganz.
We're talking to Nico Langtoday, who is the author of a
book called American Teenagerhow Trans Kids Are Surviving
Hate and Finding Joy in aturbulent era.
Lang is the founder of QueerNews Daily and an award-winning
journalist.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
So Nika Lang how are you doing today?
I'm all right.
I'm hanging out with a cat inYoungstown Ohio, so life could
be a lot worse.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Tell me a little bit about what inspired you to write
this book.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Yeah, well, you know it was a number of different
things, but I think one of thebig things for me is that I knew
I had the resources to write itLike, I've known a lot of these
families because you know, forthe uninitiated, I spent a year
traveling the country todocument the lives of trans kids
in seven different states knewbecause I've been doing this
(01:41):
work for a long time and I'm alongtime LGBT plus journalist,
I've written for more placesthan I haven't and I just knew
that I had the trust of familiesto be able to write something
like this because a lot of thesefamilies, they knew me, they've
met me, they've spent time withme, they like me and with that
I thought that gave me a certainlevel of responsibility because
(02:01):
I could write a book that Iknew very few journalists were
positioned to do, meant to do itin a way that really uplifted
and celebrated the communityduring a really tough time.
So I just felt like, almost in away, I had no choice.
Of course I did, but what was Igoing to do?
Not do it?
Was I going to not help thesekids speak their truth during a
(02:23):
time in which they're beingerased?
No, like I was just going to doit.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
What was the most impactful interaction you think
you had while writing the book?
Speaker 3 (02:31):
God, that's very Sophie's Choice of Us, isn't it?
Well, yeah, well, I can'tchoose between my children, but
I will say that I think that thestory that that resonated with
me like in a not the mostbecause they all really
resonated with me, but in areally personal way was the Jack
and Augie story in Florida,Because, for those who haven't
(02:52):
read the book yet, they weretrans siblings in Pensacola,
Florida, and their mom is asurvivor of domestic violence.
They had recently been homelessfor three months and Jack had
been detransitioned by the stateof Florida when she lost her
gender affirming care underMedicaid.
(03:12):
So the family was like reallyreally going through a lot.
At the time that I got there,they were really traumatized,
for lack of a better word.
You could almost see the traumain their bodies like a second
skin, and that was really hard.
It was hard to be there withthem.
Sometimes it was hard to bewith people who are in really
(03:32):
severe pain and struggling, butalso I related to them so much.
They reminded me so much of mychildhood.
I grew up really poor and my momwas a single mom who is often
like struggling economically andstruggling with mental health
issues and also a survivor ofdomestic violence and getting to
tell a story like that that wasclose to my experience in so
(03:55):
many ways just felt really,really important to me.
I was really grateful that theywere courageous enough to like
let people in during that time,Because I think it takes a lot
of vulnerability to do that tolet this person that you barely
know stay in your house for twoand a half weeks and then, on
top of that, like all thesepeople that you don't know are
(04:17):
going to be reading out aboutyour story.
You know people that you'llnever meet, making up all that
you know, whatever kind ofopinions they want about you,
and the idea that they werestill willing to do that and to
give us the gift of their story,it's just.
It's just such a tremendouspresence Like they.
I really am truly in awe ofthem for doing this with me and
(04:37):
just deeply grateful forever.
I'll be grateful for the restof my life.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Yeah, it does seem like a really great project and
it seems like it would have beena lot of fun.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Sometimes it was a lot, it was like every emotion.
It was like being hooked up toa car battery of emotion for
like, like like a year.
We'll just say I was very.
I used to be one of thosepeople who, like, looked at a
boring day and was just likesort of dreaded it.
And now I'm like, oh my God, anhour of quiet, doesn't that
(05:08):
sound great?
Like where I am right now, it'slike sort of like it outside
sounds a little country, eventhough it's in the city.
It's very, almost like cricketsort of thing, and I'm like, oh
my God, just a minute of peace,it's great.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
So did you?
Did you learn anythinginteresting that you didn't know
, that you would learn while youwere writing?
Speaker 3 (05:24):
this book.
I'm sorry I always feel likesuch a cop-out when I say this,
but no, because I've been doingthis work for such a long time
I've worked with families oftrans kids for so long that I
feel like anything I was goingto learn I already learned.
It wasn't really about what Ineeded to learn.
It's more about what readersneed to learn, needed to learn.
It's more about what readersneed to learn.
(05:45):
But I think something I'd kindof not like not forgotten
necessarily because you know I'ma person on the surf but you
know I'm not done, but I think Ineeded to be reminded of once
again is how hard it is to be akid already.
Like, being a teenager is toughand I just haven't been a
teenager in such a long timethat I just didn't have any
muscle memory of it anymore.
(06:06):
Like the kids that you go toschool with, right, you don't
choose these kids and you'rejust stuck in class with them
and sometimes you like them andyou get along, and sometimes
they're the most evil littlebrats on the planet, you know,
and you just have to put up withthem.
Have to put up with them, andso much of the drama in these
kids' lives.
(06:27):
You know the kids who are inthe book was based around.
School, was just based aroundthe sort of like daily sociality
of the whole thing of who'sfighting with whom, you know
who's on the outs with whom,who's dating whom, who's
cheating on whom, you know.
Just all of this, like thisinterpersonal stuff, and being
connected again to like the realexperience of like what it's
like to be a teen and not whatwe project on to teenagers.
(06:48):
It really brought back somememories, like it really helped
or well, not helped like forcedme to really relive a lot of my
childhood and just rememberingwhat exactly what it was like it
was.
Just it was a very immersiveexperience for me emotionally
and I think it's also a reminderfor all of us adults that these
kids are already dealing with alot.
(07:08):
You know.
It's like they're dealing withbeing teenagers and trying to
figure out their like path inlife and what they're going to
do and what college they'regoing to go to, and trying to
make the most of all this whilethey while they still can that,
like they need time to do thatand putting all this, all this
stuff on them, like anti-translegislation, and having to fight
for their rights and do all ofthis activism work.
(07:31):
It's just so exhausting.
It's incredible that they do it.
There are so many trans kidswho are amazing activists and
who are really doing the workand we're all like.
I'm so grateful to them, I'm inawe of them, but they also just
shouldn't have to.
Like you know, being a teen ishard enough.
They shouldn't have to befighting all these battles on
top of it.
So I just hope at some pointthey just don't have to anymore,
(07:53):
that we get to a point insociety where we just let these
kids live their lives, let thembe kids, leave them alone.
It's not like people who areaffirming them that are taking
away their childhoods orsomething like that.
It's the people who are tryingto strip away their rights who
are giving them no choice but tofight all.
So I just hope that at somepoint they get to be, that they
(08:15):
get to just enjoy this littlesliver of teenage-dom while it
lasts, because the thing is itdoesn't last forever.
You got to enjoy it while youcan.
Well, that's the truth.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Nothing lasts forever .
So what do you hope that thereaders learn and get from this
book?
Speaker 3 (08:29):
I mean it's sad and kind of basic, but I hope they
learn to treat these kids likehuman beings, like I just feel
like we have a way of treatingtrans kids and not we like
allies or you know, or queerpeople, but people on the other
side of this have a way oftreating these kids like they're
, like sea creatures who wererecently discovered at the
bottom of the ocean.
You know just the entirerhetoric around them is so
(08:52):
dehumanizing.
This conversation is sodehumanizing and they feel it
too.
They feel just like constantlyother.
It's a horrible feeling andit's very like lonely making so
for people reading the book.
I hope they realize that these,you know, these people are just
kids but at the same timethey're also human beings who
deserve the same rights as therest of us, and it's really
(09:14):
pathetic that there needs to bea book that exists that explains
that to people that you knowthese kids are human beings who
deserve the same rights as theydo.
But here we are, you know, andI hope people take that away.
I hope people look at thesekids expressing their voices and
their thoughts and theiropinions and their own agency,
(09:35):
and they realize that theydeserve that, that they deserve
to define their path in lifehowever they want, cause I, you
know, I do think that these kidsmaybe taught me one thing not
to contradict myself from beforeand again, it's something I
kind of already knew.
But I, you know, sometimes I'mdumb and I need to be reminded
of things that in the marriageequality movement, like circa,
like, oh, like 2007, 2008, andall the way to 2015, right, the
(09:59):
kind of dominant message of themovement then was that we
deserve rights because we're thesame as you, you know, like our
love is the same, our heartsare the same, our lives are the
same.
So give us rights because we'rejust like you.
And you know I don't want todrag that too much because
clearly it was effective, itworked, but, like, with all due
(10:21):
respect, I don't think that'swhat these kids have ever been
fighting for and I don't thinkthat's what these kids have ever
been fighting for and I don'tthink that's what I've been
fighting for either.
Like I don't deserve rightsbecause I'm just like someone
else.
I deserve rights because I'm me, and it's the same for these
kids.
Like they deserve rightsbecause they are them and they
are Americans who are entitledto the same inalienable rights
(10:43):
as everyone else.
I think that we're in this pointright now in America where
we're just so scared ofdifference.
We're so scared of people whoare different from us or have
different lives than us ordifferent paths, and it's kind
of always been like that, right.
You look at like like we usedto own people in this country
because they were different fromus and that difference made us,
made them less human in thiscountry because they were
(11:04):
different from us and thatdifference made us made them
less human.
So I just hope that at somepoint in this country we're
finally able to look atdifferences being our strengths,
that we don't all have to bethe same to be like beautiful,
that in fact, it's the ways inwhich we're not like each other
that can make us the mostbeautiful.
It's what makes this countrystrong.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
So did you ever think when you were a kid growing up
that you would end up doing aproject like this?
Speaker 3 (11:29):
No, I was really poor .
I didn't have any connectionsLike all my friends in college.
Like I started out in ajournalism program right, but I
didn't last in it.
Because it's like every time Iwould ask somebody how they got
this, like, oh, cushy internship.
It would always be like, oh, mydad made a call, you know, and
I just didn't know how I wasever going to get anywhere.
(11:50):
Because it's like my dad isn'tgoing to make a call to anybody.
You know what I mean.
Like I just like my mom it'slike the guy she can make a call
to are like biker gangs, youknow.
There's just nobody in mynetworks that I could leverage
to make something like thishappen for myself.
It was just a lot ofdetermination and stubbornness
(12:11):
on my part and just being reallygood, so I never thought that I
would get a shot like this.
I never thought that anyonewould ever open a door for me
and the fact is, is that not alot of people did.
I think there were definitelypeople who helped me here and
there, but for the most part,people seemed very inclined to
keeping those doors locked.
(12:31):
So I had to like not just likelook for a window.
I had to bust the walls down,and I feel like I'm still doing
that.
It's why I've been, you know, to38 states on this book tour.
You know 92 stops.
Because I was told whileshopping this book around that
there was no audience for it,that there was no market for it.
Almost no publishers would pickthis up because they didn't
(12:52):
think they could sell it.
And I'm just again a verystubborn person that I've got to
prove to the industry and alsoto myself that there is an
audience for this book.
People do want this, people docare, and I will keep touring
this country for as long as Ihave to do that, until I drop
dead or they make it literallyillegal to tour books, I will
still be doing this.
Just call me Willie Loman, youknow.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
What's next for you now that you've done this big
project?
Speaker 3 (13:17):
I do a lot of sleeping right now, so that's
pretty much like number one onmy priority list.
I mean, I'm going to be touringthis book for as long as I can.
My hope is to have the longestbook tour in history because I
just you know that point I wastalking about before of wanting
to prove to the industry thatthere is an audience for this,
there's a community here andstuff like this can sell.
(13:38):
Like I feel like I have to makethat point in the clearest
possible way, and even if it'slike a couple of years of my
life, that.
But then after that I'm workingon a secret project that I
won't talk about because I don'twant anyone to steal the idea.
But the other, the thing thatno one's going to steal because
you know you're not related toher is I'm writing a biography
(14:00):
of my great grandmother, who waslike an early Hollywood, like
dancer and like flapper, who ledthis like absolutely fabulous
wildlife, like a black woman whopassed herself off as Turkish
in order to have a career in the1940s, at a time in which, you
know, not only like women werebeing so forced into the home
but, on top of that, like blackwomen especially.
(14:21):
There was just such littleopportunity and she just managed
to have all of these incredibleexperiences and just this I
know this word is slightlyproblematic, but like this, like
, just like crazy stuff that shewas able to do right at a time
in which people were told theycouldn't have.
That, I just think, is soincredible and profound.
Like I uh, I only learned aboutmy great-grandmother's
(14:43):
existence last year through theuh, through the wonders of
23andMe, and I never really hada role model before.
Like I remember as a kid, wehad to do this project in school
where we created our ownWheaties box and I had to like
figure out who my role modelwould be for, you know, to put
on the Wheaties box.
And I had no idea.
Like I looked at the adults inmy life and it's like you're all
(15:04):
lovely, but I don't want yourlives.
Like I don't aspire to be you.
And there wasn't anybody I sawlike out in the world that just
felt like, oh, I want what youhave.
And I think I believe I endedup picking Carrie Strug, who was
just like a gymnast at the time, like you know, like won some
Olympic medals, right, so it wasjust like I don't know whatever
(15:24):
, and now, all these years later, for the first time in my life
I feel like I have a role modeland that feels cool.
This little, like you know,black bisexual, like chaos demon
, who was just like wreakinghavoc in Southern California,
that feels deeply relatable tome and I love that and I cannot
wait.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Well, I'm sure the listeners will be excited to see
that when it comes out.
So tell me, is there anythingthat you would want people to
know that I haven't asked youabout, or any information you
want people to not to?
Speaker 3 (15:53):
have.
Support your local bookstore.
Go see a movie I'm a bigadvocate for the cinema and it's
dying right now.
Go see Weapons it's reallygreat.
And just be good to each other.
Like I were at this point insociety where there's just so
much like cruelty and evilnessfor like lack of a better word.
It's kind of a cliche thought,but I think that kindness will
(16:14):
save us.
I think that listening to otherpeople's stories will save us.
Being a better person, like iswhat transforms this.
Like forms our culture.
There's this idea of like jihadin Islam is often like,
misunderstood, like all it meansreally is transformation.
And there's this idea of likethe transformation of the self
(16:34):
and the transformation ofsociety.
And through transforming theself, you know, we transform
society.
So I hope all of us are able todo that internal work so we can
create a better world, not justfor these kids, who deserve to
grow up in an America thatdoesn't victimize them all the
time, but so that way we createa better America for all of us.
(16:55):
I think we all deserve that.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Agreed.
So thank you very much forspending time with me and
talking with us today.
We really appreciate that.
This has been Queer Voices andI'm Ethan Michelle Ganz.
We've been talking to Nico Lang, the writer, the author of
American Teenager how Trans KidsAre Surviving Hate and Finding
Joy in a Turbulent Era.
Thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 5 (17:22):
Hi, there it's Brett Cullum and I'm here with Aaron
Alon of Thunderclap Productions.
They are going to be presentingthe world premiere of the
Chosen Ones, which is a rivetingnew musical by well Aaron Alon.
So there we go.
It's described asheart-wrenching, hilarious,
ultimately unforgettable.
It follows a group of LGBTQIAplus teens in conversion therapy
(17:46):
summer camp, which sounds likea lot of fun, and it's all led
by an ex-gay minister.
And it's a timely story ofliving authentically, finding
your chosen family, even whenthe world tells you not to.
So this is part of a series ofshows that the thunderclap
productions has done.
It's part of the john stephenkellett memorial series and it's
(18:07):
all about lgbtq plus equityproductions addressing that.
Performances will be at theMatch in Matchbox 3, August 28th
through September 6th.
So welcome, Aaron.
Thank you for talking to me.
Speaker 6 (18:21):
It's a pleasure to be here, brett, thank you.
Speaker 5 (18:23):
You know it's interesting.
I think Conversion Therapy.
I just read Boy Interrupted andlooked at the movie version of
it and all that kind of stuff.
Wait, it's not Boy Interruption, what is that?
Speaker 6 (18:33):
I know it's what you're thinking of.
Yeah, it's, it'll come to me ina second.
Speaker 5 (18:37):
Boy erased.
Speaker 6 (18:38):
Erased.
Yeah, girl, interrupted is thething?
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5 (18:43):
And I always want to call it that boy, erased though
I.
It's a book, gerard Conley, anda movie that was made, and all
about conversion therapy.
So what made you want to writea musical about conversion
therapy?
Speaker 6 (18:56):
Yeah, you know I had written two large-scale musicals
and they're incredibly excitingto write.
When you write a really bigshow, you know like 40-person
cast, nine-person pit, orchestrakind of shows.
I'm very proud of those showsbut very hard to get those sorts
of shows put on.
So I wanted to focus on a smallscale show where I could tell a
more intimate story, and Istarted.
(19:18):
Oftentimes what I do with showsis, I think, about sort of what
topics are interesting.
I tend to be kind of anissue-driven writer a lot of
times.
So I thought about what's thetopic that I think is really
important and that sort of closeto my heart and I started
thinking a little bit aboutconversion therapy.
And that's sort of close to myheart and I started thinking a
little bit about conversiontherapy.
I had been a volunteer forabout nine years with Hatch,
(19:39):
which is a LGBTQ plus supportgroup for queer teens in the
Houston area.
I was with them for about nineyears and I saw a lot of kids
struggling and who had gonethrough those programs and who
had, or whose parents werethreatening to send them to
those programs, even one kid whotold his mom he was going to
conversion therapy so he couldattend.
Speaker 5 (19:59):
Hatch.
Speaker 6 (20:00):
So you know it just, and I realized that this is a
subject that I feel like we'vestopped talking about, even
though it's still a really,really big deal.
You know, the big nationalorganization Exodus, one that
had been over this, dissolvedand that's a really interesting
story, actually, about how thatended and they had so much more
(20:21):
presence in the media, I think,when there was this big national
group over it and it's sort ofwhen that, when they dissolved,
it sort of fragmented into allthese different pieces and so we
don't know how many conversiontherapy camps there are.
We don't know where there are,how many there are.
There's no licensure.
Some states have banned thepractice for kids, but it's
still legal in a majority of theUS states, including here,
(20:43):
including here, yeah, and infact I even was looking at some
of the like Republican platformsfor Texas and I found it
explicitly endorsed and one ofthe past Republican state
platforms for the state of Texas.
They said you know, we supporta version of conversion therapy
that they had mentioned thereand historically they had done
that a number of times and theyjust kind of used whatever the
latest trend is for somethingthat is conversion therapy but
(21:06):
has a different name.
So, anyway, I really I careabout this issue and I thought
this could be a story worthtelling and I do what I do in a
lot of shows.
I spent about a year justdigging into research and
learning all I can.
I interviewed survivors ofconversion therapy.
I read different testimonialsthat people had put out there
about their experiences with it.
I tried to learn about thepeople who were like high level
(21:30):
on the other side too, peoplewho were supporting conversion
therapy and creating versions ofconversion therapy, and how did
they justify it and how didthey try to make it sound
rigorous and scientific and yeah, and so through that process, I
developed this original storyabout six queer kids in this
camp who are all there underdifferent circumstances and all
(21:51):
have their different stories,but what this one summer means
to them when they all cometogether in this one place.
Speaker 5 (21:57):
So it's really about their relationships and bonding
kind of trauma bonding, if youwill, over this experience.
Speaker 6 (22:04):
I definitely think that's a big part of it.
You know part of it is showingwhat conversion therapy looks
like and, honestly, it's a, it'sone of the nicer versions of
conversion therapy.
These are all people who reallycare about kids.
They think they're doing goodin the world.
You know, they're trying to dosomething that they think is
loving and helpful with thesekids.
There are a lot worse versionsof conversion therapy than that,
(22:25):
so I tried to give it to showthat even in its best forms,
it's incredibly dangerous andscary, and so one part of the
story is about conversiontherapy.
The other part is what happenswith these six kids.
Five of the six kids do notwant to be there Of course.
Yeah, there is one kid of thesix, though, who actually had to
talk his parents into lettinghim go there, and I,
(22:47):
interestingly, as I've talked todifferent people working for
this project, I've met a few ofthe adults who were once that
kid.
The kid who was so upset aboutbeing gay, very religious,
really wanted to, as they say,pray the gay away and opted to
go into a place like this,desperate for help.
So there's, both of those sidesare represented in this, and
there are different types ofkids here too.
(23:09):
There are lesbians, gay boys,there's a pansexual teen,
there's a trans teen.
So, like I'm trying to, even inthis small group, show this
idea, this is a huge camp.
These are six kids that theychose to put together into one
small group.
Who are they?
How do they come together andwhat ways do they support each
other, scare each other,challenge each other, help each
(23:31):
other all of that stuff.
Speaker 5 (23:33):
Well, you mentioned Exodus a little bit earlier and
they used to run the big loveand action group out of Memphis,
tennessee, and I had someinteraction with them as a young
man.
My parents were very interestedin me going to that.
But they will not accept youunless, or back in those days,
they would not accept you unlessyou specifically wanted to be
(23:54):
there.
I mean, they absolutely werelike you know, if you're going
to buck us, you know, move on tothe next thing.
So it's interesting You've gotthis kind of dynamic going on
that you've got five, obviously,that are kind of not super
happy to be there.
But I think there is kind of adesperation whenever you end up
in a conversion camp.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Yeah, it just happens .
Speaker 5 (24:16):
How did you go about casting this?
I mean, obviously it's asensitive subject and it looks
like you've got a great castassembled for it.
Speaker 6 (24:24):
Truly great cast.
Yeah, we have a wonderful castand also great leadership at the
helm.
Ayesha Asari is directing andchoreographing it.
Philip D Hall is the musicdirector.
Our production team is alsoincredible.
We've been really verythoughtful about how we put
together this group ofperformers and this production
team.
We actually had multiple roundsof auditions Now about a year
(24:46):
before this, even I put out arecording of the Chosen Ones.
So I, through my own personalproduction company, I cast and
released a recording of the allthe songs in the show.
Three of the original sixperformers from there are now in
this, originating the rolesthat they sang on the recording.
The other six sorry, the otherfive actors are new to the
(25:08):
project and we had multiplerounds of auditions.
You know, in some cases it wasimmediately clear wow, this
person is going to be amazing.
In some cases, we wanted to seemore people and wanted to see
more people until we reallyfound someone where we're like,
yes, this is the person who willmatch with this role in this
cast, and the group of peoplewe've put together again is just
(25:29):
truly remarkable and we're soexcited to see them bring it to
life well, speaking of therecording, is there a way that
you can go in and listen to that?
absolutely so.
If anyone wants to just visitthechosenonesmusicalcom and
click on music and video, I havelinks there to all of the
streaming services where it'savailable.
(25:49):
So it's available on all thestandard ones, you know, apple,
amazon, spotify, pandora, and,yeah, they have access to any of
those streaming services.
Spotify is a great way to getit for free.
Some of the other ones requiresubscriptions and stuff like
that.
We're gradually creating videosand putting those videos out on
YouTube too.
So there are currently, I think, two studio recordings out, one
(26:11):
of a song called the Secret ofMakeup and one of a song called
Joseph Joe, where people canwatch, watch them singing and
singing in a studio setting kindof thing and hear the songs in
that context too.
Speaker 5 (26:23):
Now, if I've got this right, you did the music, you
did the lyrics, you wrote thebook you did the orchestration.
When did you realize that youwere this like musical person
that could construct and createa whole thing like one man band
kind of style?
I mean that's very rare.
Speaker 6 (26:43):
You know it depends on the project that I'm working
on too.
So I started as a classicalcomposer.
I got three degrees classicalcomposition In fact, that's what
brought me to Houstonoriginally was to complete my
doctorate at the Rice UniversityShepard School of Music in
composition.
So I did a lot of training inclassical composition, which of
course, includes things likeorchestration, and then,
(27:06):
basically as soon as I finishedmy degrees, I realized I don't
really love writing classicalmusic.
There are other things I'm morepassionate about and I went to
earlier passions of writingplays and musicals.
That was around 2009.
I started writing some shortplays that did really well in
like the competition circuit andthey were performed around the
country in New York and Houstonand stuff like that.
(27:27):
And these are little plays,like 10 minute plays, but it
improved me as a writer wherethey wrote lyrics and I wrote
music, and I was not a goodlyricist at this point, but I
was a really good editor and itwas sort of a masterclass when I
worked with this really greatlyricist where he'd write lyrics
, I'd send back feedback and I'dwatch how he would make
(27:47):
revisions, and that processcreated stronger songs for our
show that we were working on,which was never finished but it
was still.
We produced some reallybeautiful work, I think.
But it was still a.
We produced some reallybeautiful work, I think.
But it also helped me grow soand I'd been involved with
theater since I was a little kid, and so just a long time
passion of theater and musicaltheater.
(28:12):
And then I started writing myown musicals and was in sort of
coordinated a musical review, acomedic musical review called
Death.
The Musical helped co-found atheater company here,
thunderclap Productions, whichis, you know, still going strong
, and started writing additionalshows.
And you know, the way that Igrow and become stronger at the
areas where I'm weaker ispartially by doing, but largely
by just sharing my work withother really talented people and
getting feedback and doing thesame for them.
(28:33):
So I have all these wonderfulother writers that I work with
and we share work with eachother and we give each other
feedback and we help each othergrow.
And sometimes I'll collaboratewith someone on a musical and
sometimes I'll write it bymyself.
But I do think it's that oldexpression writing is rewriting,
yeah.
Speaker 5 (28:51):
I am very familiar with that.
Speaker 6 (28:52):
I'm sure you are.
Speaker 5 (28:55):
Unfortunately, I'm usually under a deadline where
my writing has to just go.
I put it out in the world afterjust a couple of rewrites.
But anyway, chosen ones.
Okay, so it starts august 28thand runs through september 6th,
and this is the first timethat's being fully mounted as a
musical, like basically this isthe first production of it, full
(29:16):
scale.
Speaker 6 (29:16):
Yes, this is the first.
This is the first fullproduction of it in.
This is the first production ofit full scale.
Yes, this is the first.
This is the first fullproduction of it.
In fact, this is the firstmusical of mine, a full length
musical that's gotten a fullprofessional production.
I've had a musical film bullythat was very successful in the
film festival circuit for acouple of years, had shorter
works done, I've had plays done,things like that, but this is
the first time a full lengthmusical of mine is actually
(29:37):
being performed in aprofessional capacity, which is
very exciting are there anyplans after this, like, if this
goes well, what would you liketo see happen to the chosen ones
?
yeah, I would like to starttrying to market its other
theaters around the country.
Obviously, dreams of going tothings like broadway or the west
end are always.
I think anyone who writesmusicals that doesn't think they
(29:59):
that doesn't admit they wantthat is lying a little bit, but
you know it's for most showsthat is kind of a dream, but it
is.
This is a small show.
I think it could do really welloff Broadway.
I think it could really do wellin the regional theater circuit
.
I think it's really relevantright now, actually more
relevant than when I wrote it.
It's getting worse, not better,for LGBTQ plus people in the US
(30:19):
right now, as I think we know,and I think this is becoming
more relevant and more painfullynecessary as time goes on, and
I do hope.
I think that shows have theability to soften people's
hearts in a way that debate andpolicy and activism sometimes
(30:39):
can't, because it's not an issue, it's a story, it's a group of
people, it's a group of peoplethat you really care to love,
come to love and care about in ashort amount of time.
I think about shows like LaCage, a Fall being done in the
eighties, you know, and just how, despite the incredible
homophobia at the time and allof the fear around the AIDS
(31:01):
epidemic, people still came tothe theater and fell in love
with those characters and cameto care, and I hope that a show
like this has the potential todo that too.
I tried not to make it toopreachy.
I tried to, you know, reallyhave these characters exist
authentically in this world andsee what that looks like.
And I also I have kind of likean allergy to two-dimensional
(31:25):
villains in my work in general.
I think most people that arevillains are really just people
who believe what they're doingis right and they're doing some
really painful and horrible andterrible things.
You know, I don't think that alot of people go out in there in
the world just rubbing theirhands together and saying you
know, I can't wait to commitevil.
You know it's and that's kindof what happens here Like the
(31:47):
conversion therapy camp is doingsome real harm.
But these are people who areloving and caring and they think
they're doing good in the worldand they want to do right by
these kids and they care aboutthese kids.
That doesn't preclude them fromdoing some real harm.
Speaker 5 (32:02):
You know, I remember when Exodus actually imploded
and the head of that actuallywent away with his husband and
moved here to Texas.
I have no idea how thathappened and I thought that was
the end of this kind of thingand I was really surprised to
find out that conversion therapyis alive and well.
(32:23):
I'm sure it is thriving in thisera.
I'm sure it is now aimed whereit used to be aimed at the gay
community.
I'm sure now it is horrificallyaimed at the trans community.
So specifically to lump them inthere with that which has to be
even more scarring to you know,just your whole identity, just
(32:45):
completely, and your gender andyour concept of who you are
being attacked by something likethis.
So it is an interesting topicand it is unfortunately relevant
to today, which I'm surprisedbecause I really kind of felt
like we were past all of this.
Speaker 6 (33:00):
That's part of the reason why I wanted to write
this, because I think a lot ofus felt that way.
All that happened is visibilitydecreased, and that also means
that a lot of theseorganizations are operating with
some really scary people andsome really scary shadows, and
it's happening all across thecountry and not just in the U?
S too.
There's a big movement in theUK against this right now, in
(33:21):
2021, there was a newdocumentary that came out, came
out about this called pray away,and you know and I've even just
working on this project whenpeople found out what it was
about I I've had so many peoplesay to me I went through that
and it's yeah and it's.
Some of them are very young andit's still very much happening
(33:42):
and it's still shocking, butyeah.
So I think a lot of thesethings sort of went underground
a little bit more, but they'restill there and underground is a
scarier place for them to be,because there are no real
qualifications, there are nocertifications, there's nothing.
There's no organization lookingover organizations like this
and making sure that they're notjust abusing children even if
you think conversion therapyisn't in itself, abuse, and
(34:03):
there's some scary stuff goingon.
Speaker 5 (34:05):
Well, it's really a misnomer because it's not
therapy and it's not accreditedby any kind of psychological or
psychiatric thing.
It's religion.
I mean, let's call it what itis.
It's religion and it'sindoctrination and it is
absolutely kind of one-sided onthat and that is how they've
couched it, that's how they'vebeen able to be out there and
(34:28):
that's the way that theycontinue to kind of do that.
As long as they're supported bythat, then they're going to be
out there.
So it is a very timely musicaland I can't wait to see what
you've done with it and how youkind of created songs around it
and experiences and developingthese relationship with these
kids.
And then, you know, you talkabout the villain, which I'm
assuming is the pastor or theperson that runs it, and things
(34:51):
like that.
So it'll be a great experienceto witness the chosen ones and
kind of figure out that it'sstill relevant to our time to
witness the chosen ones and kindof figure out that it's still
relevant to our time.
Speaker 6 (35:01):
Yeah, I wish it were not, but I do hope that this
helps people learn more about it, talk about it, really think
more deeply about it.
I'm hoping with increasedawareness there can be
increasing things like oversightand state bans and stuff like
that.
The scientific consensus isabsolutely not in favor of this.
There are versions of it thatlook more scientific, that are
done by psychologists andpsychiatrists and that have
(35:24):
other types of names.
There's actually an aboutsection of the musicals webpage
the chosen ones, musicalcom,slash about, and it includes a
whole section on conversiontherapy with some links and some
more information about thedifferent ways that you might
see this referred to.
But yeah, I mean, there are alldifferent versions of this, but
none of them are supported bythe major psychological and
(35:46):
psychiatric organizations.
The scientific consensus isfirmly against it.
Speaker 5 (35:51):
And if you want more information,
thechosenonesmusicalcom is wherewe can find basically about the
, about the musical, a deep diveinto that.
Of course,thunderclapproductionscom is the
theater group that is producingit.
Ironically, you have a heavyhand in both.
So, yes, we'll find out aboutthat.
(36:13):
And, of course, starts its runaugust 28th, goes through
september so, and it will be atthe match theater.
So thank you so much, aaron.
I always find you fascinating.
I really love Thunderclap.
I really love getting to seeyour work.
This is going to be an excitingpart of my summer and
definitely something that I'vebeen looking forward to seeing
for a while.
Speaker 6 (36:32):
So congratulations, thank you.
I'll throw one last thing outthere.
If anyone listening to thiswants to use the discount code
PRIDE20, you can get generaladmission tickets for $20 with
that code.
Oh, wow, okay.
And opening night is, as always, with Thunderclap.
We try to make it pay what youcan, so you can get in for any
amount you can afford.
Speaker 5 (36:50):
Yeah, yeah.
No, it's always a greatstructure to do that, but I will
see you then.
Speaker 6 (36:55):
Thank you so much, Fred.
Speaker 5 (36:57):
Thank you.
Speaker 8 (37:02):
Hello everyone, my name is Jacob Newsom, with Power
of the Narrative, and we areco-hosting this episode with
KPFT Queer Voices.
I have a very special guest.
His name is Wayne Chella.
He is a director of the film'sinsignificant talisman I forgot
about that one and Mercury.
A lot of it is based on wayneteller's life, and so, wayne,
(37:22):
would you like to tell theaudience more about yourself and
the works that you've produced?
Speaker 7 (37:27):
yeah, sure, uh.
So I really I started writingat a pretty young age.
I I can remember as far back aslike eight or nine.
Uh, with my up the street wewere writing like little plays
that we would put together andput on.
And then as I got older, thatkind of grew.
And then at 15, I wrote like amurder mystery novel with a good
(37:52):
friend of mine.
And then around the time I waslike 18, around the time
depicted in the film Mercury, Istarted to get into filmmaking
and specifically filmmaking withthat group of friends that's
depicted in that film.
Those friendships met anacrimonious ending and so I
(38:13):
really didn't do much for a longtime and then, I guess in my
early fees, I started writingagain, kind of got the bug.
Uh, yeah, so the results are,as you mentioned, talisman,
insignificant and mercury.
Speaker 8 (38:27):
So yeah, which I love , by the way.
I love all the.
So I'm biased because I loveall the films.
But, um, you know, I I'mcurious too, like why did you go
from writing physically tofilmmaking?
Because you could have juststayed as, like, an author
published a bunch of books, soI'm curious about why you felt
like that's where your processneeded to evolve.
Speaker 7 (38:48):
I don't know that.
I really can answer that.
It was visually.
I've always been a film buff,always really enjoyed watching
television shows, been a filmbuff, always really enjoyed
watching television shows andthen eventually got to a point
like I said.
You know, when we made Talisman, I had written that script.
I have a writing and I know I'mtalking about a previous work,
(39:10):
but it connects.
So when we were shootingTalisman, we we originally shot
that as a short film just to seehow it was going to go.
Listen, the actors had so muchchemistry together Colin
included in that that we weren'teven finished shooting a short
film and we had already decidedwe would spin that off into a
(39:31):
web series.
So we shot the short film in2018.
We shot the rest of the seriesin 2019.
And in between, on Valentine'sDay 2019, I woke up just like
any other morning, grabbed myphone which is unfortunately not
uncommon and just kind of likechecked in to see what the world
(39:53):
was up to right and there was anews article from a local
television station inPhiladelphia talking about
clergy sexual abuse.
And that was a game changer forme, mainly because I had
avoided all of that stuff for avery long time.
So anyway, I read the article.
(40:14):
It kind of shook me up a littlebit.
There was a list of crediblyaccused clergy that had been
investigated, and again,credibly accused.
I opened that list and Istarted scrolling and I knew I
knew that that person's namewould be on the list.
And sure enough it was.
And it was right about at thatmoment that my husband walked
(40:36):
out of the bathroom and into ourbedroom, having just gotten out
of the shower.
He's getting ready for work andI guess I'm pretty pale, but I
was probably white as a sheet atthat point and immediately he
was like you know what's wrongand I had mentioned something.
But that's what I used to do IfI was close to people I would.
I would hint at or or even insome cases like joke about what
(41:00):
had happened to me that day.
It just didn't feel like a jokeanymore and I went to work and
I had to stand in front of likea hundred people at work and
give a presentation and as soonas I was done, I like everything
just washed over me.
Yeah, I went and I talked to acouple of really close friends.
(41:23):
One of them was like hey, youshould probably go talk to
somebody, and I did.
But so it was in between thisprocess of making talisman that
this all kind of comes to light.
Oh, you know, unfortunatelywith trauma you don't have all
the pieces.
Sometimes and that wascertainly the case for me was I
(41:45):
knew that I had all of theseexperiences that had happened to
me over the course of mylifetime, a bunch of which
didn't really make a lot ofsense to me.
And unfortunately, that day,you know, I went to work and I
was like was I sexually abusedor assaulted?
(42:06):
Is that what happened?
I looked it up and I read aboutit and I was like this is me,
they're talking about me.
For whatever reason, it putinto perspective some of the
things that had happened to meover the span of time.
Immediately I knew that Ineeded to share that story,
(42:28):
because if that can happen to me, it can happen to anybody.
I am fairly lucky in the sensethat, despite the trauma and the
things that happened to me inthe past, that I was able to
overcome that and be reasonablysuccessful.
And I felt like, you know, itwas just very important to me to
(42:49):
share that so that peopleunderstood that they weren't
alone.
So I immediately startedwriting Insignificant.
And again, you know, we were inthe process of filming talisman.
Colin and I had gotten reallyclose, just because Alan is one
of the most creative people Iknow, and so we just clicked on
that level and so he wouldbounce ideas off of me, I would
(43:09):
bounce ideas off of him, andvice versa.
And I got pretty deep intowriting the series and I was
like I need to, I need to talkto somebody about this.
And so I sent it to Colin andhe read it.
And I was like I need to, Ineed to talk to somebody about
this.
And so I sent it to Colin andhe read it and I kind of like
waited as he read, wonderingwhat he was going to think of it
.
And he came back and he waslike we need to make this now.
And I was like, well, it's notgonna be now, but you think it's
(43:31):
good.
And he was like, yeah, we needto tell the story, the story
needs to be told, and that'skind of how that that kind of
came about.
So, yes, it was very importantfor me to get that story out
into the world.
And then, you know, we actuallywe casted it, we filmed it and
then I'm putting it together andright before we're about to
release it into the world, therewas, like this overwhelming
(43:53):
sense of dread because I had.
I had basically told my story,beat by beat, retelling of my
story, but it is deeply groundedin my personal truth, in my
experience.
The names are changed, thecircumstances may be a little
bit different, but that ispretty much my life.
And so, yeah, there was thismoment of panic where it was
like, do I really want to putthis personal story out into the
(44:17):
world?
And I panicked for a couple ofdays and then, you know,
remembered why I had done it inthe first place, which which was
to help people and to, like Isaid, let them know that they're
not alone.
Speaker 8 (44:28):
Thank you, I hear you .
I'm holding space for yourstory here.
Speaker 7 (44:32):
Thank you and that means a lot.
It really, it really does.
It really does.
Again, obviously, having hadsomewhat similar experiences,
you understand the stigma andthe things that we feel, I think
, as you come to terms withthose types of issues, and I
think that was really that wasthe hard part for me.
I remember and it's I guessit's not a funny story, but it's
(44:55):
a funny story.
I mean, my friend, like I said,was like you should probably
talk to somebody and I said,yeah, I agree.
And then the person that Ireached out to to talk to I had
seen 27 years before, but I wasa kid and was hyper aware of the
(45:19):
fact that my parents wereinvolved in that.
And you know, as a 16, 17 yearold kid, you don't think about,
hey, there are HIPAA rules andthings like that, that you have
privacy, but I didn't, I didn'tknow that, and so I did not talk
about those things.
I talked about other thingsthat bothered me, but I did not
(45:40):
mention my sexual orientationand I certainly didn't mention
anything that had happened to me.
And so, 27 years later, facedwith that, I called and, sure
enough, he was still in practiceand I had always we'd always
had a really good rapport and Ireally liked him.
I just wasn't honest with himand so, sure enough, I reached
(46:02):
out and he called me back alittle later and I could hear
the smile over the phone, youknow.
He remembered me and he said,hey, what's going on?
And I said, listen, you know, Ijust kind of rediscovered this
issue.
That happened it was the reasonthat I was seeing you 27 years
ago, but I couldn't be honestabout it, and now I need to be,
(46:22):
and so, yeah, it was just.
Speaker 8 (46:25):
This whole experience really brought a lot of things
full circle for me, that beingone of them relations so I'm
sensing a lot of themes of like,maturity and also like lessons,
of receiving that you're you'restill working through to this
day of like, receiving, goodness, receiving all these things is
this?
Does it sound like about rightfor you?
Speaker 7 (46:46):
it sounds spot on it, even when it comes to the work
itself, you know, insignificantin particular, really seemed to
resonate with people.
It won a lot of awards, weplayed a lot of festivals.
It, by all accounts, wassuccessful, not the financial
way, but ultimately itaccomplished what I wanted it to
(47:08):
accomplish, which was it gotout there, people saw it and
they were affected by it, and Ithink, as a creator, that's what
you look for.
You're trying to tell a storythat moves people in some way,
right.
Sometimes that way is just toentertain them, yes, but
sometimes it's to make them feelsomething deeply, and I think
(47:29):
it did that.
Speaker 8 (47:30):
If I can ask, what does the legacy of your work
look like and how do youenvision the impact to be that
would satisfy you?
Speaker 7 (47:38):
I guess I would have to say what I said originally,
which is if, if one person sawinsignificant and perhaps saw a
little bit of themselves in wesor even in anthony, those
characters who were clearly bothstruggling in different ways
(47:58):
and they realize that they'renot alone, or they see, you know
that west suffered abuse andrealize that they're not alone,
if one person is impactedpositively by any of that, or
even mercury for that matter,then that's the legacy that you.
That would be amazing to me.
Speaker 8 (48:18):
So because you answered a lot of these, because
it was like was there a momentin making either insignificant
or Mercury on the set duringwriting or editing, where the
emotional weight of the workbecame undeniable?
Speaker 7 (48:28):
I will tell you, yeah , so it's funny when we, when we
shot insignificant, it was it'sthis really weighty story,
right, yes, but it was thisjoyous experience and I really
mean that Overwhelminglypositive.
The actors who appeared inInsignificant were just amazing
(48:48):
people who really took thatstory to heart and really wanted
to bring it to life and reallyit was like I had partners in
that.
You know, a lot of times whenyou, when you make a film,
people are excited about thestory you're telling or they're
excited about the opportunitythey got.
Yes, but these folks reallywere excited to put something
(49:09):
out into the world that couldmake a positive impact and help
people.
Right, even an insignificant.
You know, izzy, the female lead, is struggling with an eating
disorder and that was somethingthat was just.
It was so important to her asan actress to put that out into
the world and bring light to it.
So we had this joyousexperience.
(49:30):
It literally we became a familyon set.
Everybody still keeps in touchto this day, still keeps in
touch to this day.
But the last shot ofInsignificant is actually just.
It was part of a montage at thebeginning of Insignificant,
which is of Wes's parentsfighting.
Yes, and that was the.
That was the final thing.
We shot and we did three tapesand each.
(49:52):
It was like reliving mychildhood because my parents
that is my experience, myparents did divorce.
They were not a great match,right.
Uh, there was a lot of domesticviolence in my home and yeah,
so, anyway, by the third take ofthat scene, where the mother
(50:13):
kind of like charges at thefather and like is screaming at
him and he clears all the thingsoff of the countertop and
everything goes smashing, Icalled cut and I disappeared
because I just broke down.
It was really emotional, it wasvery heavy and I will never
(50:33):
forget one and Keith Pichardo,who played miles, yeah, they
came and they found me and I wasjust crying, I was, I was done,
and they just came and therewere no words even spoken and
the two of them just hugged meand just stayed that way for a
few minutes and, you know, I gotmyself together.
(50:54):
But yeah, it was, it was veryemotionally heavy and it was.
It was heavy filming it, it washeavy writing it, because
writing it required me to goback and and sort of relive, you
know, those experiences thatwere not all that pleasant.
You know, insignificant is notjust about the fact that wes,
(51:16):
you know, survived sexualassault or sexual abuse.
It's also about what it waslike growing up in the 90s, as
as a gay kid, yes, who went toan all boys school, who had all
of these things that wereseemingly working against him,
that made it difficult andultimately, yeah, it was a very
(51:38):
heavy period, very heavy coupleof years, but ultimately it
wound up being like therapy,because sometimes when you walk
through that dark stuff, whenyou're done walking through it
and reliving it, you get to thelight right and you feel lighter
because you have now dealt withthat and and sort of let it go,
(52:00):
and releasing insignificantinto the world was my final act
of letting go, I think I want toask you too, so I'm not going
to assume have you done innerchild work before I?
have not.
Speaker 8 (52:15):
Okay.
So I ask a lot of guests thisand I even do this for myself
what would you, knowing what youknow now, what would you go
back and say to like young Wayne?
Speaker 7 (52:24):
I think the best advice that I could give myself
if I was younger is to giveyourself a break, because I
didn't do that.
I was very serious.
Even from the time that I was achild, I was very serious.
I didn't smile a lot and it'sweird, it's like this dichotomy,
because I'm a very lightheartedperson, I love to laugh, I love
(52:48):
to smile and I believe at mycore there's a lightheartedness
to me, but the expression ofthat never came through.
It was very much heavy for meas a child.
And, yeah, I think I would tellyoung Wayne to give himself a
(53:08):
break and to not take everythingso seriously.
You have to have fun and youhave to see the joy and you have
to let people in, like wetalked about earlier.
Yes, and that's not who he was,it just wasn't you know.
So, yeah, I think that's thatwould be my advice.
Speaker 8 (53:28):
Sound like there's a lot weighing down his spirit.
What would you want somebodywho sees your work, especially
somebody that's queer, isolated,cut off from a lot of the
friendships what would you wantthem to take away from their
work and believe aboutthemselves?
Speaker 7 (53:43):
Be your own person.
Do it your way.
There's no right way.
Everyone is walking throughthis life.
Everyone has their ownchallenges and their own
obstacles.
Be yourself and find your ownway, because listening to
people's advice and them tellingyou how to how to live your
life or none of that matters man.
None of it matters.
(54:04):
The most important piece is tobe able to look in the mirror
and be proud of who that personis.
And that goes for everybody, notjust queer people, anybody.
You have to be able to lookyourself in the mirror and be
okay with that person, and I amfortunate because of these
experiences that I got to aplace where now I kind of agree
(54:27):
with people.
I'm not going to say I'm agreat guy, but I like that
person.
I do think that that personthat I see in the mirror has
really good intentions and wantsto help people, whether that's
through narrative or that'sthrough being a presence in
their lives or trying to mentorpeople, whatever that looks like
(54:48):
.
I always want to leavesomething better than I found it
.
That's my philosophy.
So, you know, be okay with whoyou are and, regardless of
people who may try to put youdown or try to make you feel bad
about that, don't listen tothat crap, because it's crap.
It really is.
You know is and find your way.
(55:10):
Surround yourself with peoplethat you love, that will love
you.
That is called chosen family.
Sometimes, unfortunately,that's not blood family and
that's okay.
I'm fortunate my blood familyis still in my life.
I didn't lose anybody becauseof coming out or anything like
that, but the people that I holddearest are my chosen family.
(55:34):
Those are the people I want tobe around.
I've just been amazinglyfortunate to encounter the
people that I have, and the onething I guess I would say is
there is something to learn fromeverybody that crosses your
path.
Sometimes those things are whatnot to do, or sometimes those
(55:54):
are things that you might wantto emulate and incorporate into
your own story.
But I've just been blessed, andyou know that.
That goes for colin, it goesfor my writing partner, it goes
for all of the actors who helpedme bring these stories to life
and all of the folks behind thescenes that did.
Uh, aaron's uh, daughter is myco-director on insignificant.
(56:17):
So you talk about full circlemoments.
Right when I started talkingabout, you know, getting back
into filmmaking, aaron was like,hey, you know, asha has this
experience.
And I was like, okay, and soshe came and she helped us and
and, uh, yeah, it's just like Isaid, there's something positive
(56:39):
that can be taken from everyinteraction that you have with
somebody.
And you know, do that.
Look at, look at the light inthe world.
There is so much darkness.
Look at the light in the world.
There is so much darkness.
We hear about it constantly.
It's in the news, it iseverywhere and it is real and it
is legitimate.
(56:59):
But there are still so manybeautiful things in this world
and so many amazing people andso many amazing stories that
don't get that focus from themedia, that are out there
waiting to be told anddiscovered.
And, yeah, go out and followyour dreams and tell your story,
because everybody has a story.
Speaker 8 (57:20):
Thank you, Wayne.
This has been Power of theNarrative with Jacob Newsome
guest star.
Wayne, Please go check outMercury and Significant Talisman
.
I would love to have you on forfuture episodes because it's
been incredible Anytime.
Speaker 4 (57:36):
This has been Queer Voices, heard on KPFT Houston
and as a podcast available fromseveral podcasting sources.
Check our webpageQueerVoicesorg for more
information.
Queer Voices executive produceris Brian Levinka.
Debra Moncrief-Bell isco-producer.
(57:58):
Brett Cullum, davisMendoza-Druzman and even
Michelle Gans are contributorsFor Queer Voices.
I'm Glenn Holt.
Hello everybody.
This is Queer Voices, a podcastand radio show on KPFT 90.1 FM
that's been on the air forseveral decades as one of the
oldest LGBTQ plus radio shows inthe southern United States.
American Teenager, how TransKids Are Surviving Hate and
(00:27):
Finding Joy in a Turbulent Era.
Nico Lange, as well asaward-winning playwrights behind
the upcoming conversion therapymusical, the Chosen Ones, aaron
Alon, and writer director andproducer Wayne Chella.
Normally we'd play snippets ofeach interview as a preview, but
this episode is packed fromstart to finish, so let's dive
right into contributor EthanMichelle Ganz's interview with
(00:47):
author of American Teenager,nico Lang.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
This is Queer Voices and this is Ethan Michelle Ganz.
We're talking to Nico Langtoday, who is the author of a
book called American Teenagerhow Trans Kids Are Surviving
Hate and Finding Joy in aturbulent era.
Lang is the founder of QueerNews Daily and an award-winning
journalist.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
So Nika Lang how are you doing today?
I'm all right.
I'm hanging out with a cat inYoungstown Ohio, so life could
be a lot worse.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Tell me a little bit about what inspired you to write
this book.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Yeah, well, you know it was a number of different
things, but I think one of thebig things for me is that I knew
I had the resources to write itLike, I've known a lot of these
families because you know, forthe uninitiated, I spent a year
traveling the country todocument the lives of trans kids
in seven different states knewbecause I've been doing this
(01:41):
work for a long time and I'm alongtime LGBT plus journalist,
I've written for more placesthan I haven't and I just knew
that I had the trust of familiesto be able to write something
like this because a lot of thesefamilies, they knew me, they've
met me, they've spent time withme, they like me and with that
I thought that gave me a certainlevel of responsibility because
(02:01):
I could write a book that Iknew very few journalists were
positioned to do, meant to do itin a way that really uplifted
and celebrated the communityduring a really tough time.
So I just felt like, almost in away, I had no choice.
Of course I did, but what was Igoing to do?
Not do it?
Was I going to not help thesekids speak their truth during a
(02:23):
time in which they're beingerased?
No, like I was just going to doit.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
What was the most impactful interaction you think
you had while writing the book?
Speaker 3 (02:31):
God, that's very Sophie's Choice of Us, isn't it?
Well, yeah, well, I can'tchoose between my children, but
I will say that I think that thestory that that resonated with
me like in a not the mostbecause they all really
resonated with me, but in areally personal way was the Jack
and Augie story in Florida,Because, for those who haven't
(02:52):
read the book yet, they weretrans siblings in Pensacola,
Florida, and their mom is asurvivor of domestic violence.
They had recently been homelessfor three months and Jack had
been detransitioned by the stateof Florida when she lost her
gender affirming care underMedicaid.
(03:12):
So the family was like reallyreally going through a lot.
At the time that I got there,they were really traumatized,
for lack of a better word.
You could almost see the traumain their bodies like a second
skin, and that was really hard.
It was hard to be there withthem.
Sometimes it was hard to bewith people who are in really
(03:32):
severe pain and struggling, butalso I related to them so much.
They reminded me so much of mychildhood.
I grew up really poor and my momwas a single mom who is often
like struggling economically andstruggling with mental health
issues and also a survivor ofdomestic violence and getting to
tell a story like that that wasclose to my experience in so
(03:55):
many ways just felt really,really important to me.
I was really grateful that theywere courageous enough to like
let people in during that time,Because I think it takes a lot
of vulnerability to do that tolet this person that you barely
know stay in your house for twoand a half weeks and then, on
top of that, like all thesepeople that you don't know are
(04:17):
going to be reading out aboutyour story.
You know people that you'llnever meet, making up all that
you know, whatever kind ofopinions they want about you,
and the idea that they werestill willing to do that and to
give us the gift of their story,it's just.
It's just such a tremendouspresence Like they.
I really am truly in awe ofthem for doing this with me and
(04:37):
just deeply grateful forever.
I'll be grateful for the restof my life.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Yeah, it does seem like a really great project and
it seems like it would have beena lot of fun.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Sometimes it was a lot, it was like every emotion.
It was like being hooked up toa car battery of emotion for
like, like like a year.
We'll just say I was very.
I used to be one of thosepeople who, like, looked at a
boring day and was just likesort of dreaded it.
And now I'm like, oh my God, anhour of quiet, doesn't that
(05:08):
sound great?
Like where I am right now, it'slike sort of like it outside
sounds a little country, eventhough it's in the city.
It's very, almost like cricketsort of thing, and I'm like, oh
my God, just a minute of peace,it's great.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
So did you?
Did you learn anythinginteresting that you didn't know
, that you would learn while youwere writing?
Speaker 3 (05:24):
this book.
I'm sorry I always feel likesuch a cop-out when I say this,
but no, because I've been doingthis work for such a long time
I've worked with families oftrans kids for so long that I
feel like anything I was goingto learn I already learned.
It wasn't really about what Ineeded to learn.
It's more about what readersneed to learn, needed to learn.
It's more about what readersneed to learn.
(05:45):
But I think something I'd kindof not like not forgotten
necessarily because you know I'ma person on the surf but you
know I'm not done, but I think Ineeded to be reminded of once
again is how hard it is to be akid already.
Like, being a teenager is toughand I just haven't been a
teenager in such a long timethat I just didn't have any
muscle memory of it anymore.
(06:06):
Like the kids that you go toschool with, right, you don't
choose these kids and you'rejust stuck in class with them
and sometimes you like them andyou get along, and sometimes
they're the most evil littlebrats on the planet, you know,
and you just have to put up withthem.
Have to put up with them, andso much of the drama in these
kids' lives.
(06:27):
You know the kids who are inthe book was based around.
School, was just based aroundthe sort of like daily sociality
of the whole thing of who'sfighting with whom, you know
who's on the outs with whom,who's dating whom, who's
cheating on whom, you know.
Just all of this, like thisinterpersonal stuff, and being
connected again to like the realexperience of like what it's
like to be a teen and not whatwe project on to teenagers.
(06:48):
It really brought back somememories, like it really helped
or well, not helped like forcedme to really relive a lot of my
childhood and just rememberingwhat exactly what it was like it
was.
Just it was a very immersiveexperience for me emotionally
and I think it's also a reminderfor all of us adults that these
kids are already dealing with alot.
(07:08):
You know.
It's like they're dealing withbeing teenagers and trying to
figure out their like path inlife and what they're going to
do and what college they'regoing to go to, and trying to
make the most of all this whilethey while they still can that,
like they need time to do thatand putting all this, all this
stuff on them, like anti-translegislation, and having to fight
for their rights and do all ofthis activism work.
(07:31):
It's just so exhausting.
It's incredible that they do it.
There are so many trans kidswho are amazing activists and
who are really doing the workand we're all like.
I'm so grateful to them, I'm inawe of them, but they also just
shouldn't have to.
Like you know, being a teen ishard enough.
They shouldn't have to befighting all these battles on
top of it.
So I just hope at some pointthey just don't have to anymore,
(07:53):
that we get to a point insociety where we just let these
kids live their lives, let thembe kids, leave them alone.
It's not like people who areaffirming them that are taking
away their childhoods orsomething like that.
It's the people who are tryingto strip away their rights who
are giving them no choice but tofight all.
So I just hope that at somepoint they get to be, that they
(08:15):
get to just enjoy this littlesliver of teenage-dom while it
lasts, because the thing is itdoesn't last forever.
You got to enjoy it while youcan.
Well, that's the truth.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Nothing lasts forever .
So what do you hope that thereaders learn and get from this
book?
Speaker 3 (08:29):
I mean it's sad and kind of basic, but I hope they
learn to treat these kids likehuman beings, like I just feel
like we have a way of treatingtrans kids and not we like
allies or you know, or queerpeople, but people on the other
side of this have a way oftreating these kids like they're
, like sea creatures who wererecently discovered at the
bottom of the ocean.
You know just the entirerhetoric around them is so
(08:52):
dehumanizing.
This conversation is sodehumanizing and they feel it
too.
They feel just like constantlyother.
It's a horrible feeling andit's very like lonely making so
for people reading the book.
I hope they realize that these,you know, these people are just
kids but at the same timethey're also human beings who
deserve the same rights as therest of us, and it's really
(09:14):
pathetic that there needs to bea book that exists that explains
that to people that you knowthese kids are human beings who
deserve the same rights as theydo.
But here we are, you know, andI hope people take that away.
I hope people look at thesekids expressing their voices and
their thoughts and theiropinions and their own agency,
(09:35):
and they realize that theydeserve that, that they deserve
to define their path in lifehowever they want, cause I, you
know, I do think that these kidsmaybe taught me one thing not
to contradict myself from beforeand again, it's something I
kind of already knew.
But I, you know, sometimes I'mdumb and I need to be reminded
of things that in the marriageequality movement, like circa,
like, oh, like 2007, 2008, andall the way to 2015, right, the
(09:59):
kind of dominant message of themovement then was that we
deserve rights because we're thesame as you, you know, like our
love is the same, our heartsare the same, our lives are the
same.
So give us rights because we'rejust like you.
And you know I don't want todrag that too much because
clearly it was effective, itworked, but, like, with all due
(10:21):
respect, I don't think that'swhat these kids have ever been
fighting for and I don't thinkthat's what these kids have ever
been fighting for and I don'tthink that's what I've been
fighting for either.
Like I don't deserve rightsbecause I'm just like someone
else.
I deserve rights because I'm me, and it's the same for these
kids.
Like they deserve rightsbecause they are them and they
are Americans who are entitledto the same inalienable rights
(10:43):
as everyone else.
I think that we're in this pointright now in America where
we're just so scared ofdifference.
We're so scared of people whoare different from us or have
different lives than us ordifferent paths, and it's kind
of always been like that, right.
You look at like like we usedto own people in this country
because they were different fromus and that difference made us,
made them less human in thiscountry because they were
(11:04):
different from us and thatdifference made us made them
less human.
So I just hope that at somepoint in this country we're
finally able to look atdifferences being our strengths,
that we don't all have to bethe same to be like beautiful,
that in fact, it's the ways inwhich we're not like each other
that can make us the mostbeautiful.
It's what makes this countrystrong.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
So did you ever think when you were a kid growing up
that you would end up doing aproject like this?
Speaker 3 (11:29):
No, I was really poor .
I didn't have any connectionsLike all my friends in college.
Like I started out in ajournalism program right, but I
didn't last in it.
Because it's like every time Iwould ask somebody how they got
this, like, oh, cushy internship.
It would always be like, oh, mydad made a call, you know, and
I just didn't know how I wasever going to get anywhere.
(11:50):
Because it's like my dad isn'tgoing to make a call to anybody.
You know what I mean.
Like I just like my mom it'slike the guy she can make a call
to are like biker gangs, youknow.
There's just nobody in mynetworks that I could leverage
to make something like thishappen for myself.
It was just a lot ofdetermination and stubbornness
(12:11):
on my part and just being reallygood, so I never thought that I
would get a shot like this.
I never thought that anyonewould ever open a door for me
and the fact is, is that not alot of people did.
I think there were definitelypeople who helped me here and
there, but for the most part,people seemed very inclined to
keeping those doors locked.
(12:31):
So I had to like not just likelook for a window.
I had to bust the walls down,and I feel like I'm still doing
that.
It's why I've been, you know, to38 states on this book tour.
You know 92 stops.
Because I was told whileshopping this book around that
there was no audience for it,that there was no market for it.
Almost no publishers would pickthis up because they didn't
(12:52):
think they could sell it.
And I'm just again a verystubborn person that I've got to
prove to the industry and alsoto myself that there is an
audience for this book.
People do want this, people docare, and I will keep touring
this country for as long as Ihave to do that, until I drop
dead or they make it literallyillegal to tour books, I will
still be doing this.
Just call me Willie Loman, youknow.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
What's next for you now that you've done this big
project?
Speaker 3 (13:17):
I do a lot of sleeping right now, so that's
pretty much like number one onmy priority list.
I mean, I'm going to be touringthis book for as long as I can.
My hope is to have the longestbook tour in history because I
just you know that point I wastalking about before of wanting
to prove to the industry thatthere is an audience for this,
there's a community here andstuff like this can sell.
(13:38):
Like I feel like I have to makethat point in the clearest
possible way, and even if it'slike a couple of years of my
life, that.
But then after that I'm workingon a secret project that I
won't talk about because I don'twant anyone to steal the idea.
But the other, the thing thatno one's going to steal because
you know you're not related toher is I'm writing a biography
(14:00):
of my great grandmother, who waslike an early Hollywood, like
dancer and like flapper, who ledthis like absolutely fabulous
wildlife, like a black woman whopassed herself off as Turkish
in order to have a career in the1940s, at a time in which, you
know, not only like women werebeing so forced into the home
but, on top of that, like blackwomen especially.
(14:21):
There was just such littleopportunity and she just managed
to have all of these incredibleexperiences and just this I
know this word is slightlyproblematic, but like this, like
, just like crazy stuff that shewas able to do right at a time
in which people were told theycouldn't have.
That, I just think, is soincredible and profound.
Like I uh, I only learned aboutmy great-grandmother's
(14:43):
existence last year through theuh, through the wonders of
23andMe, and I never really hada role model before.
Like I remember as a kid, wehad to do this project in school
where we created our ownWheaties box and I had to like
figure out who my role modelwould be for, you know, to put
on the Wheaties box.
And I had no idea.
Like I looked at the adults inmy life and it's like you're all
(15:04):
lovely, but I don't want yourlives.
Like I don't aspire to be you.
And there wasn't anybody I sawlike out in the world that just
felt like, oh, I want what youhave.
And I think I believe I endedup picking Carrie Strug, who was
just like a gymnast at the time, like you know, like won some
Olympic medals, right, so it wasjust like I don't know whatever
(15:24):
, and now, all these years later, for the first time in my life
I feel like I have a role modeland that feels cool.
This little, like you know,black bisexual, like chaos demon
, who was just like wreakinghavoc in Southern California,
that feels deeply relatable tome and I love that and I cannot
wait.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Well, I'm sure the listeners will be excited to see
that when it comes out.
So tell me, is there anythingthat you would want people to
know that I haven't asked youabout, or any information you
want people to not to?
Speaker 3 (15:53):
have.
Support your local bookstore.
Go see a movie I'm a bigadvocate for the cinema and it's
dying right now.
Go see Weapons it's reallygreat.
And just be good to each other.
Like I were at this point insociety where there's just so
much like cruelty and evilnessfor like lack of a better word.
It's kind of a cliche thought,but I think that kindness will
(16:14):
save us.
I think that listening to otherpeople's stories will save us.
Being a better person, like iswhat transforms this.
Like forms our culture.
There's this idea of like jihadin Islam is often like,
misunderstood, like all it meansreally is transformation.
And there's this idea of likethe transformation of the self
(16:34):
and the transformation ofsociety.
And through transforming theself, you know, we transform
society.
So I hope all of us are able todo that internal work so we can
create a better world, not justfor these kids, who deserve to
grow up in an America thatdoesn't victimize them all the
time, but so that way we createa better America for all of us.
(16:55):
I think we all deserve that.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Agreed.
So thank you very much forspending time with me and
talking with us today.
We really appreciate that.
This has been Queer Voices andI'm Ethan Michelle Ganz.
We've been talking to Nico Lang, the writer, the author of
American Teenager how Trans KidsAre Surviving Hate and Finding
Joy in a Turbulent Era.
Thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 5 (17:22):
Hi, there it's Brett Cullum and I'm here with Aaron
Alon of Thunderclap Productions.
They are going to be presentingthe world premiere of the
Chosen Ones, which is a rivetingnew musical by well Aaron Alon.
So there we go.
It's described asheart-wrenching, hilarious,
ultimately unforgettable.
It follows a group of LGBTQIAplus teens in conversion therapy
(17:46):
summer camp, which sounds likea lot of fun, and it's all led
by an ex-gay minister.
And it's a timely story ofliving authentically, finding
your chosen family, even whenthe world tells you not to.
So this is part of a series ofshows that the thunderclap
productions has done.
It's part of the john stephenkellett memorial series and it's
(18:07):
all about lgbtq plus equityproductions addressing that.
Performances will be at theMatch in Matchbox 3, August 28th
through September 6th.
So welcome, Aaron.
Thank you for talking to me.
Speaker 6 (18:21):
It's a pleasure to be here, brett, thank you.
Speaker 5 (18:23):
You know it's interesting.
I think Conversion Therapy.
I just read Boy Interrupted andlooked at the movie version of
it and all that kind of stuff.
Wait, it's not Boy Interruption, what is that?
Speaker 6 (18:33):
I know it's what you're thinking of.
Yeah, it's, it'll come to me ina second.
Speaker 5 (18:37):
Boy erased.
Speaker 6 (18:38):
Erased.
Yeah, girl, interrupted is thething?
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 5 (18:43):
And I always want to call it that boy, erased though
I.
It's a book, gerard Conley, anda movie that was made, and all
about conversion therapy.
So what made you want to writea musical about conversion
therapy?
Speaker 6 (18:56):
Yeah, you know I had written two large-scale musicals
and they're incredibly excitingto write.
When you write a really bigshow, you know like 40-person
cast, nine-person pit, orchestrakind of shows.
I'm very proud of those showsbut very hard to get those sorts
of shows put on.
So I wanted to focus on a smallscale show where I could tell a
more intimate story, and Istarted.
(19:18):
Oftentimes what I do with showsis, I think, about sort of what
topics are interesting.
I tend to be kind of anissue-driven writer a lot of
times.
So I thought about what's thetopic that I think is really
important and that sort of closeto my heart and I started
thinking a little bit aboutconversion therapy.
And that's sort of close to myheart and I started thinking a
little bit about conversiontherapy.
I had been a volunteer forabout nine years with Hatch,
(19:39):
which is a LGBTQ plus supportgroup for queer teens in the
Houston area.
I was with them for about nineyears and I saw a lot of kids
struggling and who had gonethrough those programs and who
had, or whose parents werethreatening to send them to
those programs, even one kid whotold his mom he was going to
conversion therapy so he couldattend.
Speaker 5 (19:59):
Hatch.
Speaker 6 (20:00):
So you know it just, and I realized that this is a
subject that I feel like we'vestopped talking about, even
though it's still a really,really big deal.
You know, the big nationalorganization Exodus, one that
had been over this, dissolvedand that's a really interesting
story, actually, about how thatended and they had so much more
(20:21):
presence in the media, I think,when there was this big national
group over it and it's sort ofwhen that, when they dissolved,
it sort of fragmented into allthese different pieces and so we
don't know how many conversiontherapy camps there are.
We don't know where there are,how many there are.
There's no licensure.
Some states have banned thepractice for kids, but it's
still legal in a majority of theUS states, including here,
(20:43):
including here, yeah, and infact I even was looking at some
of the like Republican platformsfor Texas and I found it
explicitly endorsed and one ofthe past Republican state
platforms for the state of Texas.
They said you know, we supporta version of conversion therapy
that they had mentioned thereand historically they had done
that a number of times and theyjust kind of used whatever the
latest trend is for somethingthat is conversion therapy but
(21:06):
has a different name.
So, anyway, I really I careabout this issue and I thought
this could be a story worthtelling and I do what I do in a
lot of shows.
I spent about a year justdigging into research and
learning all I can.
I interviewed survivors ofconversion therapy.
I read different testimonialsthat people had put out there
about their experiences with it.
I tried to learn about thepeople who were like high level
(21:30):
on the other side too, peoplewho were supporting conversion
therapy and creating versions ofconversion therapy, and how did
they justify it and how didthey try to make it sound
rigorous and scientific and yeah, and so through that process, I
developed this original storyabout six queer kids in this
camp who are all there underdifferent circumstances and all
(21:51):
have their different stories,but what this one summer means
to them when they all cometogether in this one place.
Speaker 5 (21:57):
So it's really about their relationships and bonding
kind of trauma bonding, if youwill, over this experience.
Speaker 6 (22:04):
I definitely think that's a big part of it.
You know part of it is showingwhat conversion therapy looks
like and, honestly, it's a, it'sone of the nicer versions of
conversion therapy.
These are all people who reallycare about kids.
They think they're doing goodin the world.
You know, they're trying to dosomething that they think is
loving and helpful with thesekids.
There are a lot worse versionsof conversion therapy than that,
(22:25):
so I tried to give it to showthat even in its best forms,
it's incredibly dangerous andscary, and so one part of the
story is about conversiontherapy.
The other part is what happenswith these six kids.
Five of the six kids do notwant to be there Of course.
Yeah, there is one kid of thesix, though, who actually had to
talk his parents into lettinghim go there, and I,
(22:47):
interestingly, as I've talked todifferent people working for
this project, I've met a few ofthe adults who were once that
kid.
The kid who was so upset aboutbeing gay, very religious,
really wanted to, as they say,pray the gay away and opted to
go into a place like this,desperate for help.
So there's, both of those sidesare represented in this, and
there are different types ofkids here too.
(23:09):
There are lesbians, gay boys,there's a pansexual teen,
there's a trans teen.
So, like I'm trying to, even inthis small group, show this
idea, this is a huge camp.
These are six kids that theychose to put together into one
small group.
Who are they?
How do they come together andwhat ways do they support each
other, scare each other,challenge each other, help each
(23:31):
other all of that stuff.
Speaker 5 (23:33):
Well, you mentioned Exodus a little bit earlier and
they used to run the big loveand action group out of Memphis,
tennessee, and I had someinteraction with them as a young
man.
My parents were very interestedin me going to that.
But they will not accept youunless, or back in those days,
they would not accept you unlessyou specifically wanted to be
(23:54):
there.
I mean, they absolutely werelike you know, if you're going
to buck us, you know, move on tothe next thing.
So it's interesting You've gotthis kind of dynamic going on
that you've got five, obviously,that are kind of not super
happy to be there.
But I think there is kind of adesperation whenever you end up
in a conversion camp.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Yeah, it just happens .
Speaker 5 (24:16):
How did you go about casting this?
I mean, obviously it's asensitive subject and it looks
like you've got a great castassembled for it.
Speaker 6 (24:24):
Truly great cast.
Yeah, we have a wonderful castand also great leadership at the
helm.
Ayesha Asari is directing andchoreographing it.
Philip D Hall is the musicdirector.
Our production team is alsoincredible.
We've been really verythoughtful about how we put
together this group ofperformers and this production
team.
We actually had multiple roundsof auditions Now about a year
(24:46):
before this, even I put out arecording of the Chosen Ones.
So I, through my own personalproduction company, I cast and
released a recording of the allthe songs in the show.
Three of the original sixperformers from there are now in
this, originating the rolesthat they sang on the recording.
The other six sorry, the otherfive actors are new to the
(25:08):
project and we had multiplerounds of auditions.
You know, in some cases it wasimmediately clear wow, this
person is going to be amazing.
In some cases, we wanted to seemore people and wanted to see
more people until we reallyfound someone where we're like,
yes, this is the person who willmatch with this role in this
cast, and the group of peoplewe've put together again is just
(25:29):
truly remarkable and we're soexcited to see them bring it to
life well, speaking of therecording, is there a way that
you can go in and listen to that?
absolutely so.
If anyone wants to just visitthechosenonesmusicalcom and
click on music and video, I havelinks there to all of the
streaming services where it'savailable.
(25:49):
So it's available on all thestandard ones, you know, apple,
amazon, spotify, pandora, and,yeah, they have access to any of
those streaming services.
Spotify is a great way to getit for free.
Some of the other ones requiresubscriptions and stuff like
that.
We're gradually creating videosand putting those videos out on
YouTube too.
So there are currently, I think, two studio recordings out, one
(26:11):
of a song called the Secret ofMakeup and one of a song called
Joseph Joe, where people canwatch, watch them singing and
singing in a studio setting kindof thing and hear the songs in
that context too.
Speaker 5 (26:23):
Now, if I've got this right, you did the music, you
did the lyrics, you wrote thebook you did the orchestration.
When did you realize that youwere this like musical person
that could construct and createa whole thing like one man band
kind of style?
I mean that's very rare.
Speaker 6 (26:43):
You know it depends on the project that I'm working
on too.
So I started as a classicalcomposer.
I got three degrees classicalcomposition In fact, that's what
brought me to Houstonoriginally was to complete my
doctorate at the Rice UniversityShepard School of Music in
composition.
So I did a lot of training inclassical composition, which of
course, includes things likeorchestration, and then,
(27:06):
basically as soon as I finishedmy degrees, I realized I don't
really love writing classicalmusic.
There are other things I'm morepassionate about and I went to
earlier passions of writingplays and musicals.
That was around 2009.
I started writing some shortplays that did really well in
like the competition circuit andthey were performed around the
country in New York and Houstonand stuff like that.
(27:27):
And these are little plays,like 10 minute plays, but it
improved me as a writer wherethey wrote lyrics and I wrote
music, and I was not a goodlyricist at this point, but I
was a really good editor and itwas sort of a masterclass when I
worked with this really greatlyricist where he'd write lyrics
, I'd send back feedback and I'dwatch how he would make
(27:47):
revisions, and that processcreated stronger songs for our
show that we were working on,which was never finished but it
was still.
We produced some reallybeautiful work, I think.
But it was still a.
We produced some reallybeautiful work, I think.
But it also helped me grow soand I'd been involved with
theater since I was a little kid, and so just a long time
passion of theater and musicaltheater.
(28:12):
And then I started writing myown musicals and was in sort of
coordinated a musical review, acomedic musical review called
Death.
The Musical helped co-found atheater company here,
thunderclap Productions, whichis, you know, still going strong
, and started writing additionalshows.
And you know, the way that Igrow and become stronger at the
areas where I'm weaker ispartially by doing, but largely
by just sharing my work withother really talented people and
getting feedback and doing thesame for them.
(28:33):
So I have all these wonderfulother writers that I work with
and we share work with eachother and we give each other
feedback and we help each othergrow.
And sometimes I'll collaboratewith someone on a musical and
sometimes I'll write it bymyself.
But I do think it's that oldexpression writing is rewriting,
yeah.
Speaker 5 (28:51):
I am very familiar with that.
Speaker 6 (28:52):
I'm sure you are.
Speaker 5 (28:55):
Unfortunately, I'm usually under a deadline where
my writing has to just go.
I put it out in the world afterjust a couple of rewrites.
But anyway, chosen ones.
Okay, so it starts august 28thand runs through september 6th,
and this is the first timethat's being fully mounted as a
musical, like basically this isthe first production of it, full
(29:16):
scale.
Speaker 6 (29:16):
Yes, this is the first.
This is the first fullproduction of it in.
This is the first production ofit full scale.
Yes, this is the first.
This is the first fullproduction of it.
In fact, this is the firstmusical of mine, a full length
musical that's gotten a fullprofessional production.
I've had a musical film bullythat was very successful in the
film festival circuit for acouple of years, had shorter
works done, I've had plays done,things like that, but this is
the first time a full lengthmusical of mine is actually
(29:37):
being performed in aprofessional capacity, which is
very exciting are there anyplans after this, like, if this
goes well, what would you liketo see happen to the chosen ones
?
yeah, I would like to starttrying to market its other
theaters around the country.
Obviously, dreams of going tothings like broadway or the west
end are always.
I think anyone who writesmusicals that doesn't think they
(29:59):
that doesn't admit they wantthat is lying a little bit, but
you know it's for most showsthat is kind of a dream, but it
is.
This is a small show.
I think it could do really welloff Broadway.
I think it could really do wellin the regional theater circuit
.
I think it's really relevantright now, actually more
relevant than when I wrote it.
It's getting worse, not better,for LGBTQ plus people in the US
(30:19):
right now, as I think we know,and I think this is becoming
more relevant and more painfullynecessary as time goes on, and
I do hope.
I think that shows have theability to soften people's
hearts in a way that debate andpolicy and activism sometimes
(30:39):
can't, because it's not an issue, it's a story, it's a group of
people, it's a group of peoplethat you really care to love,
come to love and care about in ashort amount of time.
I think about shows like LaCage, a Fall being done in the
eighties, you know, and just how, despite the incredible
homophobia at the time and allof the fear around the AIDS
(31:01):
epidemic, people still came tothe theater and fell in love
with those characters and cameto care, and I hope that a show
like this has the potential todo that too.
I tried not to make it toopreachy.
I tried to, you know, reallyhave these characters exist
authentically in this world andsee what that looks like.
And I also I have kind of likean allergy to two-dimensional
(31:25):
villains in my work in general.
I think most people that arevillains are really just people
who believe what they're doingis right and they're doing some
really painful and horrible andterrible things.
You know, I don't think that alot of people go out in there in
the world just rubbing theirhands together and saying you
know, I can't wait to commitevil.
You know it's and that's kindof what happens here Like the
(31:47):
conversion therapy camp is doingsome real harm.
But these are people who areloving and caring and they think
they're doing good in the worldand they want to do right by
these kids and they care aboutthese kids.
That doesn't preclude them fromdoing some real harm.
Speaker 5 (32:02):
You know, I remember when Exodus actually imploded
and the head of that actuallywent away with his husband and
moved here to Texas.
I have no idea how thathappened and I thought that was
the end of this kind of thingand I was really surprised to
find out that conversion therapyis alive and well.
(32:23):
I'm sure it is thriving in thisera.
I'm sure it is now aimed whereit used to be aimed at the gay
community.
I'm sure now it is horrificallyaimed at the trans community.
So specifically to lump them inthere with that which has to be
even more scarring to you know,just your whole identity, just
(32:45):
completely, and your gender andyour concept of who you are
being attacked by something likethis.
So it is an interesting topicand it is unfortunately relevant
to today, which I'm surprisedbecause I really kind of felt
like we were past all of this.
Speaker 6 (33:00):
That's part of the reason why I wanted to write
this, because I think a lot ofus felt that way.
All that happened is visibilitydecreased, and that also means
that a lot of theseorganizations are operating with
some really scary people andsome really scary shadows, and
it's happening all across thecountry and not just in the U?
S too.
There's a big movement in theUK against this right now, in
(33:21):
2021, there was a newdocumentary that came out, came
out about this called pray away,and you know and I've even just
working on this project whenpeople found out what it was
about I I've had so many peoplesay to me I went through that
and it's yeah and it's.
Some of them are very young andit's still very much happening
(33:42):
and it's still shocking, butyeah.
So I think a lot of thesethings sort of went underground
a little bit more, but they'restill there and underground is a
scarier place for them to be,because there are no real
qualifications, there are nocertifications, there's nothing.
There's no organization lookingover organizations like this
and making sure that they're notjust abusing children even if
you think conversion therapyisn't in itself, abuse, and
(34:03):
there's some scary stuff goingon.
Speaker 5 (34:05):
Well, it's really a misnomer because it's not
therapy and it's not accreditedby any kind of psychological or
psychiatric thing.
It's religion.
I mean, let's call it what itis.
It's religion and it'sindoctrination and it is
absolutely kind of one-sided onthat and that is how they've
couched it, that's how they'vebeen able to be out there and
(34:28):
that's the way that theycontinue to kind of do that.
As long as they're supported bythat, then they're going to be
out there.
So it is a very timely musicaland I can't wait to see what
you've done with it and how youkind of created songs around it
and experiences and developingthese relationship with these
kids.
And then, you know, you talkabout the villain, which I'm
assuming is the pastor or theperson that runs it, and things
(34:51):
like that.
So it'll be a great experienceto witness the chosen ones and
kind of figure out that it'sstill relevant to our time to
witness the chosen ones and kindof figure out that it's still
relevant to our time.
Speaker 6 (35:01):
Yeah, I wish it were not, but I do hope that this
helps people learn more about it, talk about it, really think
more deeply about it.
I'm hoping with increasedawareness there can be
increasing things like oversightand state bans and stuff like
that.
The scientific consensus isabsolutely not in favor of this.
There are versions of it thatlook more scientific, that are
done by psychologists andpsychiatrists and that have
(35:24):
other types of names.
There's actually an aboutsection of the musicals webpage
the chosen ones, musicalcom,slash about, and it includes a
whole section on conversiontherapy with some links and some
more information about thedifferent ways that you might
see this referred to.
But yeah, I mean, there are alldifferent versions of this, but
none of them are supported bythe major psychological and
(35:46):
psychiatric organizations.
The scientific consensus isfirmly against it.
Speaker 5 (35:51):
And if you want more information,
thechosenonesmusicalcom is wherewe can find basically about the
, about the musical, a deep diveinto that.
Of course,thunderclapproductionscom is the
theater group that is producingit.
Ironically, you have a heavyhand in both.
So, yes, we'll find out aboutthat.
(36:13):
And, of course, starts its runaugust 28th, goes through
september so, and it will be atthe match theater.
So thank you so much, aaron.
I always find you fascinating.
I really love Thunderclap.
I really love getting to seeyour work.
This is going to be an excitingpart of my summer and
definitely something that I'vebeen looking forward to seeing
for a while.
Speaker 6 (36:32):
So congratulations, thank you.
I'll throw one last thing outthere.
If anyone listening to thiswants to use the discount code
PRIDE20, you can get generaladmission tickets for $20 with
that code.
Oh, wow, okay.
And opening night is, as always, with Thunderclap.
We try to make it pay what youcan, so you can get in for any
amount you can afford.
Speaker 5 (36:50):
Yeah, yeah.
No, it's always a greatstructure to do that, but I will
see you then.
Speaker 6 (36:55):
Thank you so much, Fred.
Speaker 5 (36:57):
Thank you.
Speaker 8 (37:02):
Hello everyone, my name is Jacob Newsom, with Power
of the Narrative, and we areco-hosting this episode with
KPFT Queer Voices.
I have a very special guest.
His name is Wayne Chella.
He is a director of the film'sinsignificant talisman I forgot
about that one and Mercury.
A lot of it is based on wayneteller's life, and so, wayne,
(37:22):
would you like to tell theaudience more about yourself and
the works that you've produced?
Speaker 7 (37:27):
yeah, sure, uh.
So I really I started writingat a pretty young age.
I I can remember as far back aslike eight or nine.
Uh, with my up the street wewere writing like little plays
that we would put together andput on.
And then as I got older, thatkind of grew.
And then at 15, I wrote like amurder mystery novel with a good
(37:52):
friend of mine.
And then around the time I waslike 18, around the time
depicted in the film Mercury, Istarted to get into filmmaking
and specifically filmmaking withthat group of friends that's
depicted in that film.
Those friendships met anacrimonious ending and so I
(38:13):
really didn't do much for a longtime and then, I guess in my
early fees, I started writingagain, kind of got the bug.
Uh, yeah, so the results are,as you mentioned, talisman,
insignificant and mercury.
Speaker 8 (38:27):
So yeah, which I love , by the way.
I love all the.
So I'm biased because I loveall the films.
But, um, you know, I I'mcurious too, like why did you go
from writing physically tofilmmaking?
Because you could have juststayed as, like, an author
published a bunch of books, soI'm curious about why you felt
like that's where your processneeded to evolve.
Speaker 7 (38:48):
I don't know that.
I really can answer that.
It was visually.
I've always been a film buff,always really enjoyed watching
television shows, been a filmbuff, always really enjoyed
watching television shows andthen eventually got to a point
like I said.
You know, when we made Talisman, I had written that script.
I have a writing and I know I'mtalking about a previous work,
(39:10):
but it connects.
So when we were shootingTalisman, we we originally shot
that as a short film just to seehow it was going to go.
Listen, the actors had so muchchemistry together Colin
included in that that we weren'teven finished shooting a short
film and we had already decidedwe would spin that off into a
(39:31):
web series.
So we shot the short film in2018.
We shot the rest of the seriesin 2019.
And in between, on Valentine'sDay 2019, I woke up just like
any other morning, grabbed myphone which is unfortunately not
uncommon and just kind of likechecked in to see what the world
(39:53):
was up to right and there was anews article from a local
television station inPhiladelphia talking about
clergy sexual abuse.
And that was a game changer forme, mainly because I had
avoided all of that stuff for avery long time.
So anyway, I read the article.
(40:14):
It kind of shook me up a littlebit.
There was a list of crediblyaccused clergy that had been
investigated, and again,credibly accused.
I opened that list and Istarted scrolling and I knew I
knew that that person's namewould be on the list.
And sure enough it was.
And it was right about at thatmoment that my husband walked
(40:36):
out of the bathroom and into ourbedroom, having just gotten out
of the shower.
He's getting ready for work andI guess I'm pretty pale, but I
was probably white as a sheet atthat point and immediately he
was like you know what's wrongand I had mentioned something.
But that's what I used to do IfI was close to people I would.
I would hint at or or even insome cases like joke about what
(41:00):
had happened to me that day.
It just didn't feel like a jokeanymore and I went to work and
I had to stand in front of likea hundred people at work and
give a presentation and as soonas I was done, I like everything
just washed over me.
Yeah, I went and I talked to acouple of really close friends.
(41:23):
One of them was like hey, youshould probably go talk to
somebody, and I did.
But so it was in between thisprocess of making talisman that
this all kind of comes to light.
Oh, you know, unfortunatelywith trauma you don't have all
the pieces.
Sometimes and that wascertainly the case for me was I
(41:45):
knew that I had all of theseexperiences that had happened to
me over the course of mylifetime, a bunch of which
didn't really make a lot ofsense to me.
And unfortunately, that day,you know, I went to work and I
was like was I sexually abusedor assaulted?
(42:06):
Is that what happened?
I looked it up and I read aboutit and I was like this is me,
they're talking about me.
For whatever reason, it putinto perspective some of the
things that had happened to meover the span of time.
Immediately I knew that Ineeded to share that story,
(42:28):
because if that can happen to me, it can happen to anybody.
I am fairly lucky in the sensethat, despite the trauma and the
things that happened to me inthe past, that I was able to
overcome that and be reasonablysuccessful.
And I felt like, you know, itwas just very important to me to
(42:49):
share that so that peopleunderstood that they weren't
alone.
So I immediately startedwriting Insignificant.
And again, you know, we were inthe process of filming talisman.
Colin and I had gotten reallyclose, just because Alan is one
of the most creative people Iknow, and so we just clicked on
that level and so he wouldbounce ideas off of me, I would
(43:09):
bounce ideas off of him, andvice versa.
And I got pretty deep intowriting the series and I was
like I need to, I need to talkto somebody about this.
And so I sent it to Colin andhe read it.
And I was like I need to, Ineed to talk to somebody about
this.
And so I sent it to Colin andhe read it and I kind of like
waited as he read, wonderingwhat he was going to think of it
.
And he came back and he waslike we need to make this now.
And I was like, well, it's notgonna be now, but you think it's
(43:31):
good.
And he was like, yeah, we needto tell the story, the story
needs to be told, and that'skind of how that that kind of
came about.
So, yes, it was very importantfor me to get that story out
into the world.
And then, you know, we actuallywe casted it, we filmed it and
then I'm putting it together andright before we're about to
release it into the world, therewas, like this overwhelming
(43:53):
sense of dread because I had.
I had basically told my story,beat by beat, retelling of my
story, but it is deeply groundedin my personal truth, in my
experience.
The names are changed, thecircumstances may be a little
bit different, but that ispretty much my life.
And so, yeah, there was thismoment of panic where it was
like, do I really want to putthis personal story out into the
(44:17):
world?
And I panicked for a couple ofdays and then, you know,
remembered why I had done it inthe first place, which which was
to help people and to, like Isaid, let them know that they're
not alone.
Speaker 8 (44:28):
Thank you, I hear you .
I'm holding space for yourstory here.
Speaker 7 (44:32):
Thank you and that means a lot.
It really, it really does.
It really does.
Again, obviously, having hadsomewhat similar experiences,
you understand the stigma andthe things that we feel, I think
, as you come to terms withthose types of issues, and I
think that was really that wasthe hard part for me.
I remember and it's I guessit's not a funny story, but it's
(44:55):
a funny story.
I mean, my friend, like I said,was like you should probably
talk to somebody and I said,yeah, I agree.
And then the person that Ireached out to to talk to I had
seen 27 years before, but I wasa kid and was hyper aware of the
(45:19):
fact that my parents wereinvolved in that.
And you know, as a 16, 17 yearold kid, you don't think about,
hey, there are HIPAA rules andthings like that, that you have
privacy, but I didn't, I didn'tknow that, and so I did not talk
about those things.
I talked about other thingsthat bothered me, but I did not
(45:40):
mention my sexual orientationand I certainly didn't mention
anything that had happened to me.
And so, 27 years later, facedwith that, I called and, sure
enough, he was still in practiceand I had always we'd always
had a really good rapport and Ireally liked him.
I just wasn't honest with himand so, sure enough, I reached
(46:02):
out and he called me back alittle later and I could hear
the smile over the phone, youknow.
He remembered me and he said,hey, what's going on?
And I said, listen, you know, Ijust kind of rediscovered this
issue.
That happened it was the reasonthat I was seeing you 27 years
ago, but I couldn't be honestabout it, and now I need to be,
(46:22):
and so, yeah, it was just.
Speaker 8 (46:25):
This whole experience really brought a lot of things
full circle for me, that beingone of them relations so I'm
sensing a lot of themes of like,maturity and also like lessons,
of receiving that you're you'restill working through to this
day of like, receiving, goodness, receiving all these things is
this?
Does it sound like about rightfor you?
Speaker 7 (46:46):
it sounds spot on it, even when it comes to the work
itself, you know, insignificantin particular, really seemed to
resonate with people.
It won a lot of awards, weplayed a lot of festivals.
It, by all accounts, wassuccessful, not the financial
way, but ultimately itaccomplished what I wanted it to
(47:08):
accomplish, which was it gotout there, people saw it and
they were affected by it, and Ithink, as a creator, that's what
you look for.
You're trying to tell a storythat moves people in some way,
right.
Sometimes that way is just toentertain them, yes, but
sometimes it's to make them feelsomething deeply, and I think
(47:29):
it did that.
Speaker 8 (47:30):
If I can ask, what does the legacy of your work
look like and how do youenvision the impact to be that
would satisfy you?
Speaker 7 (47:38):
I guess I would have to say what I said originally,
which is if, if one person sawinsignificant and perhaps saw a
little bit of themselves in wesor even in anthony, those
characters who were clearly bothstruggling in different ways
(47:58):
and they realize that they'renot alone, or they see, you know
that west suffered abuse andrealize that they're not alone,
if one person is impactedpositively by any of that, or
even mercury for that matter,then that's the legacy that you.
That would be amazing to me.
Speaker 8 (48:18):
So because you answered a lot of these, because
it was like was there a momentin making either insignificant
or Mercury on the set duringwriting or editing, where the
emotional weight of the workbecame undeniable?
Speaker 7 (48:28):
I will tell you, yeah , so it's funny when we, when we
shot insignificant, it was it'sthis really weighty story,
right, yes, but it was thisjoyous experience and I really
mean that Overwhelminglypositive.
The actors who appeared inInsignificant were just amazing
(48:48):
people who really took thatstory to heart and really wanted
to bring it to life and reallyit was like I had partners in
that.
You know, a lot of times whenyou, when you make a film,
people are excited about thestory you're telling or they're
excited about the opportunitythey got.
Yes, but these folks reallywere excited to put something
(49:09):
out into the world that couldmake a positive impact and help
people.
Right, even an insignificant.
You know, izzy, the female lead, is struggling with an eating
disorder and that was somethingthat was just.
It was so important to her asan actress to put that out into
the world and bring light to it.
So we had this joyousexperience.
(49:30):
It literally we became a familyon set.
Everybody still keeps in touchto this day, still keeps in
touch to this day.
But the last shot ofInsignificant is actually just.
It was part of a montage at thebeginning of Insignificant,
which is of Wes's parentsfighting.
Yes, and that was the.
That was the final thing.
We shot and we did three tapesand each.
(49:52):
It was like reliving mychildhood because my parents
that is my experience, myparents did divorce.
They were not a great match,right.
Uh, there was a lot of domesticviolence in my home and yeah,
so, anyway, by the third take ofthat scene, where the mother
(50:13):
kind of like charges at thefather and like is screaming at
him and he clears all the thingsoff of the countertop and
everything goes smashing, Icalled cut and I disappeared
because I just broke down.
It was really emotional, it wasvery heavy and I will never
(50:33):
forget one and Keith Pichardo,who played miles, yeah, they
came and they found me and I wasjust crying, I was, I was done,
and they just came and therewere no words even spoken and
the two of them just hugged meand just stayed that way for a
few minutes and, you know, I gotmyself together.
(50:54):
But yeah, it was, it was veryemotionally heavy and it was.
It was heavy filming it, it washeavy writing it, because
writing it required me to goback and and sort of relive, you
know, those experiences thatwere not all that pleasant.
You know, insignificant is notjust about the fact that wes,
(51:16):
you know, survived sexualassault or sexual abuse.
It's also about what it waslike growing up in the 90s, as
as a gay kid, yes, who went toan all boys school, who had all
of these things that wereseemingly working against him,
that made it difficult andultimately, yeah, it was a very
(51:38):
heavy period, very heavy coupleof years, but ultimately it
wound up being like therapy,because sometimes when you walk
through that dark stuff, whenyou're done walking through it
and reliving it, you get to thelight right and you feel lighter
because you have now dealt withthat and and sort of let it go,
(52:00):
and releasing insignificantinto the world was my final act
of letting go, I think I want toask you too, so I'm not going
to assume have you done innerchild work before I?
have not.
Speaker 8 (52:15):
Okay.
So I ask a lot of guests thisand I even do this for myself
what would you, knowing what youknow now, what would you go
back and say to like young Wayne?
Speaker 7 (52:24):
I think the best advice that I could give myself
if I was younger is to giveyourself a break, because I
didn't do that.
I was very serious.
Even from the time that I was achild, I was very serious.
I didn't smile a lot and it'sweird, it's like this dichotomy,
because I'm a very lightheartedperson, I love to laugh, I love
(52:48):
to smile and I believe at mycore there's a lightheartedness
to me, but the expression ofthat never came through.
It was very much heavy for meas a child.
And, yeah, I think I would tellyoung Wayne to give himself a
(53:08):
break and to not take everythingso seriously.
You have to have fun and youhave to see the joy and you have
to let people in, like wetalked about earlier.
Yes, and that's not who he was,it just wasn't you know.
So, yeah, I think that's thatwould be my advice.
Speaker 8 (53:28):
Sound like there's a lot weighing down his spirit.
What would you want somebodywho sees your work, especially
somebody that's queer, isolated,cut off from a lot of the
friendships what would you wantthem to take away from their
work and believe aboutthemselves?
Speaker 7 (53:43):
Be your own person.
Do it your way.
There's no right way.
Everyone is walking throughthis life.
Everyone has their ownchallenges and their own
obstacles.
Be yourself and find your ownway, because listening to
people's advice and them tellingyou how to how to live your
life or none of that matters man.
None of it matters.
(54:04):
The most important piece is tobe able to look in the mirror
and be proud of who that personis.
And that goes for everybody, notjust queer people, anybody.
You have to be able to lookyourself in the mirror and be
okay with that person, and I amfortunate because of these
experiences that I got to aplace where now I kind of agree
(54:27):
with people.
I'm not going to say I'm agreat guy, but I like that
person.
I do think that that personthat I see in the mirror has
really good intentions and wantsto help people, whether that's
through narrative or that'sthrough being a presence in
their lives or trying to mentorpeople, whatever that looks like
(54:48):
.
I always want to leavesomething better than I found it
.
That's my philosophy.
So, you know, be okay with whoyou are and, regardless of
people who may try to put youdown or try to make you feel bad
about that, don't listen tothat crap, because it's crap.
It really is.
You know is and find your way.
(55:10):
Surround yourself with peoplethat you love, that will love
you.
That is called chosen family.
Sometimes, unfortunately,that's not blood family and
that's okay.
I'm fortunate my blood familyis still in my life.
I didn't lose anybody becauseof coming out or anything like
that, but the people that I holddearest are my chosen family.
(55:34):
Those are the people I want tobe around.
I've just been amazinglyfortunate to encounter the
people that I have, and the onething I guess I would say is
there is something to learn fromeverybody that crosses your
path.
Sometimes those things are whatnot to do, or sometimes those
(55:54):
are things that you might wantto emulate and incorporate into
your own story.
But I've just been blessed, andyou know that.
That goes for colin, it goesfor my writing partner, it goes
for all of the actors who helpedme bring these stories to life
and all of the folks behind thescenes that did.
Uh, aaron's uh, daughter is myco-director on insignificant.
(56:17):
So you talk about full circlemoments.
Right when I started talkingabout, you know, getting back
into filmmaking, aaron was like,hey, you know, asha has this
experience.
And I was like, okay, and soshe came and she helped us and
and, uh, yeah, it's just like Isaid, there's something positive
(56:39):
that can be taken from everyinteraction that you have with
somebody.
And you know, do that.
Look at, look at the light inthe world.
There is so much darkness.
Look at the light in the world.
There is so much darkness.
We hear about it constantly.
It's in the news, it iseverywhere and it is real and it
is legitimate.
(56:59):
But there are still so manybeautiful things in this world
and so many amazing people andso many amazing stories that
don't get that focus from themedia, that are out there
waiting to be told anddiscovered.
And, yeah, go out and followyour dreams and tell your story,
because everybody has a story.
Speaker 8 (57:20):
Thank you, Wayne.
This has been Power of theNarrative with Jacob Newsome
guest star.
Wayne, Please go check outMercury and Significant Talisman
.
I would love to have you on forfuture episodes because it's
been incredible Anytime.
Speaker 4 (57:36):
This has been Queer Voices, heard on KPFT Houston
and as a podcast available fromseveral podcasting sources.
Check our webpageQueerVoicesorg for more
information.
Queer Voices executive produceris Brian Levinka.
Debra Moncrief-Bell isco-producer.
(57:58):
Brett Cullum, davisMendoza-Druzman and even
Michelle Gans are contributorsFor Queer Voices.
I'm Glenn Holt.
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