December 23, 2025 • 58 mins
Happy Holidays from QUEER VOICES. Brett talks to John Cameron Mitchell about his appearance here in Houston on December 28th at NUMBERS NIGHTCLUB. It is brought to us by ARTHOUSE HOUSTON! Then Brett talks BLACK CHRISTMAS with Joan and Mariana from SCARY MOVIE NIGHTS. They break down the ultimate creepy Christmas flick.
Access to this episode is early for podcast subscribers! THANK YOU for listening, and we hope to be in your speakers in 2026!
Queer Voices airs in Houston Texas on 90.1FM KPFT and is heard as a podcast here. Queer Voices hopes to entertain as well as illuminate LGBTQ issues in Houston and beyond. Check out our socials at:
https://www.facebook.com/QueerVoicesKPFT/ and
https://www.instagram.com/queervoices90.1kpft/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brett (00:02):
Hello and welcome to Queer Voices.
This is our special holidayepisode.
I am Brett Cullum, and I havesome great segments to unwrap
for you tonight.
First up, I get to speak withJohn Cameron Mitchell, the man
who wrote and created Hedwig andthe Angry Inch.
He's coming to town on December28th to Numbers Nightclub for a
special screening of his movieand a performance.
(00:25):
After that, I talk to the hostsof Scary Moving Nights Podcast.
Joan and Mariana talk to meabout my favorite holiday film
that I'm probably watching rightnow.
It's Black Christmas.
So, happy holidays, or Holigase,as I like to say.
Get your wig out of the box, puton your cha-cha heels on Queer
Voices Holiday Edition.
(00:45):
It's starting now.
SPEAKER_00 (00:52):
This is KPFT 90.1 FM Houston, 89.5 FM Galveston, 91.9
FM Huntsville, and worldwide onthe internet at KPFT.org.
Brett (01:14):
Hi, this is Brett Cullum, and today I'm with John Cameron
Mitchell.
He's an exceptional artist withan impressive array of credits
that many people probably arenot aware of.
He's been on Broadway as a youngman in Big River, Six Degrees of
Separation, and The SecretGarden.
Probably his biggest claim tofame so far, and what you might
know him from, is he wrote withmusic input from Steven Trask,
(01:35):
and he starred in Hedwig and theAngry Inch, a rock musical about
a gender-blurred rock star fromEast Germany that won him a
Tony, and he turned into one ofthe best films of 2001.
He also wrote and directed ShortButts, directed Rabbit Hole with
Nicole Kidman, worked in filmswith Spike Lee, Michael Mann, he
starred as Joe Exotic oppositeKate McKinnon for a Peacock
(01:57):
series.
He has the world's coolestpodcast musical drama anthem,
Hymonculus, which starred himand Glenn Klose and Cynthia
Revo, Patty Lapone, just a fewfriends, as well as a new
podcast, Cancellation Island,starring Holly Hunter.
I mean, come on.
He's made albums.
He's set to take on the iconicrole of Mary Lincoln in Oh Mary
(02:19):
on Broadway, starting inFebruary for 12 weeks.
So welcome, John CameronMitchell, master of all media.
I am tired just reading this.
All right.
Well, the reason that you'rehere with me today is that you
are coming to Numbers Houston todo a special all-day event for
Hedwig and the Angry Inch.
It's going to happen on December28th.
(02:40):
The schedule features ascreening of his iconic film,
live commentary, post-showperformances with artists like
Amber Martin, and it's going tocelebrate queer cinema and music
at this huge venue.
And uh he's also doing a masterclass for students.
It's all brought to us by ArtHouse Houston, who were the
folks that fought to save theRiver Oaks movie theater.
So let me ask you first off thebat, how did you connect with
(03:02):
Art House?
What can we expect from thisevent?
SPEAKER_05 (03:05):
I was just reached out to by Maureen McNamara over
there.
My friend Amber Martin is fromSoutheast Texas and used to hang
out at Numbers.
And my buddy Jonathan Cohet, ofcourse, from Tarnation, lives in
Houston still and used to hangout there too.
And it's Visions New Wave Clubin the 80s.
(03:26):
So I and I've I I haven't beento Houston a whole lot, just
popped in here here and there.
We've DJ'd there but with Amberand I have.
And her family's in the Airarea.
So she's gonna join me and do acouple songs.
She recorded a country albumdown there in uh Beaumont, I
think.
(03:46):
So I am really you know, Maureencame up with this idea.
There's a master class.
I just talk about my career andwhere we are today in terms of
creativity.
I do a kind of a drunkdirector's commentary during
Hedvig.
And then after there might be afew questions, but then we'll do
a few songs with the localguitarist me and Amber.
(04:09):
Oh awesome.
Brett (04:10):
Well, I've heard a lot of songs with you and Amber on
Amazon music, so I'll be excitedto hear this.
Now, going back to the genesisof Hedwig, how did you end up
with musician Steven Trask?
I know he was the music directorand house band member at New
York City Club Squeeze Box,where I think Hedwig was born,
right?
I mean, what made you joinforces for this?
SPEAKER_05 (04:32):
Well, we met in an airplane.
I was looking for someone whowas a rock composer that wasn't
necessarily in the theaterworld.
And he he wasn't, he certainlyhad worked on dramatic things
like scores for a short film andstuff like that, but he was very
eclectic.
I went to see his band at C CBGB's, he went to see me he went
(04:55):
to see me perform at Lake Centerin a show called Hello Again.
And I was already thinking abouta piece that used the origin of
love, the myth from Plato.
And that was the That was thecenter of the story.
And you know, we were hangingout at the squeeze box club,
(05:18):
which was our favorite place.
My boyfriend was in his bandplaying bass and he said, I can
get you a gig, but you have todo the female character because
it's a drag club and I had neverreally done a drag before.
I was kind of scared of it.
Being a gay boy, you know,scared of my femininity.
Then I realized it was a a agreat honor to have energies
that we might think of as maleor female within us.
(05:40):
I you know, I don't like theterm non-binary.
It's an imperfect one becauseit's a negative.
I don't like being defined bywhat I'm not.
But I like terms likeandrogynous, you know, it's like
these are energies of all kindsthat are within us.
We're not we're not a not, we'rea something, and we're a lot of
(06:00):
things.
So Hedwig is the same, you know,a little boy we might think of
as non-binary today, kind offorced into an operation to
escape in Germany, to to escapemarry a GI and then abandoned,
you know, as a woman that hedidn't really want to be,
watching the wall come down, andthen where do we go from here?
(06:22):
So it's very much a story ofsurvival, of you know,
recovering from trauma, offinding yourself letting go of
grudges, letting go of of hatredand resentment.
The character is quite resentfuland then starts to forgive,
starts to let go.
(06:43):
Yeah.
Brett (06:43):
It was a great journey.
But do you feel like there's abig difference between the film
versus the stage show?
Is it I know I've seen bothincarnations, but what do you
feel is kind of the differencehere?
SPEAKER_05 (06:55):
Well, obviously in the play, I mean, for those who
have seen it, uh it's aone-person show, really, and
they do pretty much all thecharacters, you know, telling
the story and through theirvoices.
There's just the only othercharacters are the band and the
backup singer, Yitzhak.
And in the film, all the peoplethat are portrayed in the play,
we've seen them.
(07:16):
Tommy, Hedwig's mom and dad,Luther, all the people that are
only intimated as part of themultitude that is within Hedwig.
So the film is an opportunity toopen it up to see the situations
that are only described.
And singing to Hedwig Tom uhTommy singing to Hedwig and
(07:41):
Hedwig singing to Tommy, whereasin the play they're just one and
the same.
Which metaphorically works, youknow, when Hedwig becomes Tommy
at the end, and then we're notsure who sh ambiguity.
Brett (07:54):
Do you have anybody that's your favorite Hedwig
other than you?
SPEAKER_05 (07:57):
I there's a lot of people I really like.
I mean, Darren Chris was great.
Uh this guy in Berlin named SvenRodska was great.
Matt McGrath was probably myfavorite other Hedwig.
Brett (08:09):
You know, I I have to admit something to you.
I've seen Hedwig a lot, and Ihave to say my favorite ones are
usually the ones that are inthese little small theaters or
nightclubs that are just doingit because they love it.
You know?
And it speaks to them.
And I'm just like, wow.
Well, obviously you are shiftinggears right after this Hedwig
thing, and you're going toO'Mary.
So how the heck did you get tobe a replacement person in
(08:32):
O'Mary?
SPEAKER_05 (08:34):
Well, it's not that much of a leap.
Is it?
No.
I mean, you know, the O'MaryCole is an old friend and Okay.
You know, Cole comes from atradition of drag theater that
stretches back to the sixtiesand John Bicaro, Charles Ludlum,
Charles Bush.
Who are all people who inspiredme.
(08:56):
So we're all of the same world,you know, in downtown queerish,
queer facing entertainment andand art.
So people like Bridget Everett,Coles, Cola, Justin Divian Bond,
Anoni, the Scissor Sisters.
These all we all come from thesame font.
Brett (09:14):
But stepping into somebody's play that you didn't
write, I mean obviously Hedwigwas your own invention, and this
is Kohl's.
That's their play.
SPEAKER_05 (09:22):
So is it have a different energy when you kind
of come in or Well, I mean, inthis case, i it does borrow from
the ancient traditions, as Isaid, of drag theater, and part
of that ancient tradition isimprovisation and ad libbing and
in lost drag, you know.
And with the people who haveplayed it since Cole, like Jinx
(09:42):
Wonsoon, for example, have verymuch made it their own to the
point I can couldn't quiteremember what other people did
because they're reallyencouraged to make it their own
and they're quite different.
And maybe that which is sort ofthe way, you know, Hello Hello
Dolly was in the sixties.
You know, Pearl Bailey wouldfollow you know, Carol Channing.
And it's like, you know, there'snothing similar about them.
(10:05):
So to me that is part of theCommedia del Arte kind of
tradition of this kind oftheater.
And the same as Hedwig.
Brett (10:13):
Exactly.
I mean I've seen so manydifferent iterations of Hedwig,
it's kinda neat.
Everybody brings somethingdifferent.
So who are your co-stars forO'Marry?
SPEAKER_05 (10:22):
I think they've announced they didn't tell me,
but someone else did it.
Yes.
Someone they didn't tell me.
Why didn't they tell me?
See Simo Liu from the Shang-Chimovie is taking over as Mary's
acting teacher.
Of course.
(10:42):
And apparently he is a real Imean he's a hilarious guy and
comes from Canada, has done alot of theater.
So I'm very much looking forwardto that.
Brett (10:54):
I I'm so jealous.
I have such a crush on him, sobut and and you, of course, too.
But Mary, Todd, Lincoln, andHedwig.
Do they have anything in common?
SPEAKER_05 (11:04):
Well, I think they both feel like second bananas,
you know, to Lincoln and orTommy Gnosis.
So there is definitely this kindof resentment of not really
getting their dude, which iscertainly Mary.
And Hedwig, you know, Hedwig'ssongs are stolen, not Mary's,
but she's not allowed toperform.
She's not allowed to be herself.
(11:26):
So yeah, there is a lot incomedy.
Brett (11:29):
Okay, this show is gonna air on Christmas Eve.
So I wanted to ask you, whatwould a John Cameron Mitchell
holiday look like?
SPEAKER_05 (11:37):
Well, I'm not so much into the rel yeah obviously
obviously, but not so much intothe religious stuff.
So but you know, Christmas is aa cr created thing.
You know, the date was takenfrom the birth date of the god
Mithras.
You know, it's like and it wasconnected to the solstice,
right?
So the you know, no one reallyknows when Jesus was born or uh
(12:00):
if he was born.
And then Santa Claus is a wholeother thing, and like there's
all these you know it'ssyncretism.
That's when you take differentreligious things and ram them
together.
And to me, the more rammed thethe better.
Because it's it's uh what I likeabout it is really the getting
(12:21):
together thing, the gift giving,you know, not so much the uh the
fighting about what is right,what what actually happened, you
know.
Historical details, you know, tome it's the spirit and you know
the we have to the spirit ofgenerosity, of course, is a
lovely one and to me, but youknow, the actual day means less
(12:45):
to me.
I give presents all all year.
I don't give them the Christmas.
Brett (12:49):
Oh well, I'm definitely gonna play Tiny Tree Christmas
by by you and bitch.
So that's a cute uh but thankyou so much for taking this time
with me.
I know you've got to.
Oh, you're welcome.
And getting ready for yourBroadway role as Mary Todd
Lincoln, getting ready topresent everything at numbers
with us on December 28th, whichArt House Houston.
(13:11):
I love them, love Maureen.
So glad they're bringing youinto town.
It's just a dream to finally getto see you.
Will you be there?
Oh my gosh.
Oh, yeah.
Yes.
Like the second it wasannounced.
SPEAKER_05 (13:22):
I was like, oh, forget this.
Throw it in.
Well, Jonathan will be theretoo.
Brett (13:26):
No, really.
Yeah.
Oh, how funny.
I have not seen him since wewere in like nightclubs together
somewhere, stumbling around.
I'll be like, hey, blast fromthe past.
SPEAKER_05 (13:42):
Well, thank you so much.
No problem.
You take care.
SPEAKER_11 (13:46):
You too.
SPEAKER_05 (13:47):
Okay.
Bye.
Deborah (13:56):
This radio program, We're Voices, has existed since
the 1970s on KPFT.
We have this little crew offolks working every week to
produce what's no longer uniquebecause we're almost mainstream
now, but we're still animportant voice that might not
(14:19):
otherwise get heard because it'snot on that many places.
So KPFT is very important togive voices to those who might
not otherwise have voices.
So as Glenn always says, youparticipate by listening, but
you should also participate bysupporting the station.
(14:41):
So please go to kpft.org andmake your donation right away.
SPEAKER_10 (14:59):
I went to twins weird.
Brett (17:56):
Hi, this is Brett, and today I am joined by Joan and
Mariana from Scary Movie Nights.
They are a podcast where thescares are real, but the
friendships are realer.
I just had to do that to youguys.
Oh, I have to do the thing, thelittle heart screen.
You can't even see it.
Yes.
They are you can find them onYouTube, which is one of the
most fun ways to watch Joan andMariana, because they usually do
(18:17):
it.
Don't you guys usually do it ona bed?
Like you're on either side ofthe bed sitting there?
SPEAKER_03 (18:22):
Yes.
Brett (18:23):
Yeah, that's what I thought.
SPEAKER_03 (18:24):
Yeah, it's like a day bed.
Brett (18:27):
Yes.
Yeah, I don't want it to soundtoo lascivious, like, ooh,
yellow in bed.
SPEAKER_03 (18:33):
Yellow in bed.
SPEAKER_06 (18:35):
You know it's like back in the day when they had
like the the wife and thehusband slept in separate beds
on like the opposite sides ofthe room.
Brett (18:42):
Yes, you were divided by microphones, headphones, and
like a major portion of the bed.
Unless remember, you you're kindof like a gay guy in his
besties, so it totally makessense.
All right.
You also can find scary movienights on all major podcasting
sites.
You can get the audio version,you get the video version, or
whatever you want to do.
But I brought them in to talkabout seasonal horror movies
(19:06):
because spoiler alert, I reallykind of don't like traditional
Christmas movies.
I ugh.
They're just there's somethingabout them.
They're just treacly and they'resweet.
It's kind of like Hallmarkmovies.
I don't do those either.
Oh I know, and you're making thespace wrong.
SPEAKER_11 (19:22):
Listen.
SPEAKER_06 (19:24):
Okay.
Oh wow.
So so Brian and I have this newOkay, wait, wait, wait, wait,
wait.
Let me explain.
Brian and I have this Christmastradition where Christmas Day,
it's just the two of us, nobodyelse.
We stay home, open presents, andthen we just like eat snacks,
like play around with ourpresents and watch Hallmark
(19:45):
Christmas movies all day.
Because you know that channelwill get you before the credits
even start stop rolling from thelast one.
Like they'll play, like, startplaying the movie with the
credits like half screen.
So yeah, we uh your bottom soyou got another 12 of them well
(20:06):
okay let me ask you guys yeahyou're crazy for that but that's
horror yeah but let me ask youthis like growing up what did
you watch when it was Christmastime honestly uh we never really
watched Christmas movies as afamily like I I can't ever
(20:26):
remember being like oh my godlet's put this on let's put that
on I remember when I was youngwatching Elf yeah a lot I really
loved that movie I thought itwas so funny to this day it's
like one of my favoriteChristmas movies but in Honduras
like we mostly just celebratedthe night before Christmas so
like Christmas Eve was like thebig celebration and we'd stay up
(20:49):
through midnight you know andthen like at midnight
congratulate each other formaking it through I guess to
Christmas and then open presentsand then we'd like go to sleep
and wake up at noon.
SPEAKER_03 (21:00):
Like yeah same for me it's like the the beauty of
being married like as a Hispanicperson is a latin's being
married to a white man is thatmy family celebrates on the 24th
and then we got his family forthe 25th.
So it works out really nicely.
Think in Colombia the you knowChristmas it's a Catholic
(21:22):
country so the holidays are kindof like really centered around
you know the religious things sowe have like nine days leading
up to Christmas.
It's called the novena and yougo to someone's house and you
like basically you read thestory of like Mary and Joseph
you know making their way overto you know I don't even know
the story because I'm a terribleCatholic but it was really
(21:45):
centered around that but itwasn't till I came to the States
that I started watchingChristmas movies.
But I do love a Christmas movie.
I love Elf Home Alone Home Alone2 The Santa Claus the Santa
Claus 2 I'm there I love theholiday vibes I love snow we
don't get a lot of it here inHouston but I'll take it through
(22:06):
I'll take it on the TV.
I'll take snow where I can getit.
So I do love a Christmas movie.
I love Christmas lights I loveChristmas decorations like it
hot cocoa like I'm I'm bought infor all of it.
So I'm I'm sat for Christmasmovies.
Brett (22:21):
Well I brought you guys on board because I found out
that you were doing BlackChristmas for scary movie nights
and it is one of my favoriteChristmas movies and I thought
oh my gosh we have to talk aboutthis for you know between you
and me and Yohan and all I meancome on but I wanted to ask you
first you guys have watched alot of scary movies like tons.
(22:46):
I mean I could go through likeall of the titles that you've
done on your podcast and I'massuming a lot more but what do
you think makes a good Christmashorror movie?
What what makes Christmasespecially kind of scary?
SPEAKER_03 (22:58):
That's an excellent question.
And we were just talking aboutthis because we did just record
our episode on Black Christmaswhich I loved.
I'd never seen it before but forme it like it ticked a lot of
the boxes that I enjoy in aChristmas movie which is like
the general Christmas vibe likethere's it's snowing outside and
there's Christmas lights andthey're having like holiday
(23:19):
parties and like the decorationinside the house is like really
Christmassy.
But I think for this film andfor like as a horror film and
Joanne talked a lot about thisthe pacing was excellent.
I love the sound design and itreally was like a very like
simple but really strong premisebecause it's based on like you
(23:40):
know your typical like what isit urban legend about like you
know there's someone in thehouse with you.
The call is coming from insidethe house.
So you know the the the plot isvery straightforward but it's
very well executed.
And I think the the mystery ofthe killer and not knowing who
the killer is we never see hisface and we don't really know
(24:01):
his motives is so scary.
But I think especially likearound Christmas time it's like
a time to be with your family atime to be with your loved ones
which is something that thecharacters in this movie are not
doing because the the girls inin the movie are staying in the
sorority house for Christmas orat least Margot's character Barb
is but I think they're allstaying for Christmas.
(24:22):
So they're they're not withtheir families like they're
supposed to be but I think it'salso something about like your
personal space like your homebeing like invaded or someone
being there who's not supposedto be there I think is like
really just I thought this moviewas so good.
I was so surprised at how much Iliked it because I was like oh
like horror Christmas like Idon't really know what's gonna
(24:43):
happen here but it wasexcellent.
SPEAKER_06 (24:45):
I loved it.
Yeah and you know there are asurprisingly large amount of
horror Christmas movies.
I'm not saying they're all goodbut it's huge.
Yeah it's the it's an amazingamount and I subscribe to
Shudder as you know any goodhorror fan but I'm just saying
and and you can go through thislist of like curated Christmas
(25:09):
movies that they have andthey're all horror.
I watched one just the other daycalled A Creature was stirring
honestly not the not the besthorror movie.
But I think what's so scaryabout Christmas is just like
Mariana said, like it's a timefor you to like be spending with
your family or you know it'sit's this like safe cozy memory
that a lot of us have andinserting even just like a
(25:33):
stranger or something that'sdangerous or something to
subvert that safety that warmthis is really what is what is
scary about some of these films.
And I think it's something thatBlack Christmas really does
really well.
You know it's the you're in asorority house you're with your
girlfriends you're like drinkingeggnog or hot cocoa and all of a
(25:53):
sudden you get They're partyingthey are partying partying and
you know it's it's this sororityright like sisterhood and then
suddenly you have this call youdon't know who this person is
it's some man and now he'scalling you all these names
threatening you and it breaks itlike shatters that Christmas
(26:16):
like jollliness of thatChristmas joy you know what I
mean and and it's like you'reraising your hand to do yes
because I just realized thatthis guy's like Santa Claus.
SPEAKER_03 (26:28):
He's just he's a stranger who comes into your
house sees you when you'resleeping when you're awake so
that's kind of funny becauseyou're so right about strangers
coming to your house Santa'slike come on in brother but not
Billy.
Do not come in Billy thank you.
Brett (26:46):
Well let's let's back up a little bit for anybody that
might be confused about BlackChristmas because we really did
just dive right in.
I think most people yeah I thinkmost people kind of are familiar
with it but it's a 1974 Canadianslasher film and it was four
years before Halloween and thisis really funny because the
director is Bob Clark okay andBob Clark directed Porkies and
(27:11):
he directed a Christmas storythat one movie that plays over
and over and over again atChristmas with the little guy in
the pink pajamas and the Legoand all that.
So this is a body from hell yesno and I mean it's it's really
wild that he really started hiscareer making horror films and
this was at a time when heimmigrated from Florida to
(27:32):
Canada.
He fell in love with Canada sohe wanted to make a movie there
and Black Christmas was it okayand they they didn't have
slashers we didn't have thesetropes he basically invented
them way before Halloween andBob Clark really made fun of
John Carpenter and said you knowHalloween feels like a sequel to
Black Christmas because he'sbasically taking what I've set
up and doing it.
(27:53):
So it's really reallyinteresting.
It was originally going to becalled the babysitter they
actually the screenwriter wantedto call it that but Bob Clark
was like I don't want them to beyoung.
I want them to be college age sothat's how they changed to the
sorority and then they revisedthe script and then we're gonna
call it Stop Me but they thoughtthat that was kind of not a
(28:13):
great title either so so thereyou go.
I mean and then like like yousaid Mariana he based it on this
whole urban legend of thebabysitter and the man upstairs
and there was a series ofmurders that took place in the
Westmont neighborhood ofMontreal Quebec where people got
scary phone calls and it wasright around Christmas time.
So they kind of blended thosetwo things together.
(28:35):
So it was really interesting andactually it was Bob Clark that
had the idea to never show youthe killer the the script writer
Roy Moore actually wanted thatto be kind of revealed.
But Bob Clark kind of pulled itback and said no we're not gonna
show it and they really had tofight with the studio executives
because they wanted them to tosolve the mystery and show the
(28:56):
killer and all this other stuff.
But he he was like no I want itto be ambiguous so but it's an
interesting movie.
SPEAKER_03 (29:04):
That is the best choice one of the best choices
he made throughout the moviethat's one of my favorite parts
is that you never know who thekiller is it keeps it like this
insidious mystery of likesomebody could be living in your
attic and making all these phonecalls and someone you know like
(29:24):
there's all these guys that thegirls are dating and seeing and
you're like it could be theseguys like is it Pita or is it
some other guy?
Brett (29:36):
Well the cast was wild he got a lot of good people for it
he got Olivia Hussey who wasjust off of Romeo and Juliet he
got Kira Dulley who was just offof 2001 he played her boyfriend
Margot Kidder who was Canadianand this was before she had just
done Brian De Palma's sistersbut she hadn't done Superman
(29:59):
obviously so she wasn't reallywell known yet.
And we had John Saxon and he wasin like Spaghetti Westerns Bruce
Lee movies and of courseNightmare in Elm Street who
could forget and then you hadAndrea Martin from SCTV like
comedian Andrea Martin and sheactually replaced Gilda Radner
(30:20):
who got cast in Saturday NightLive and she had to leave the
project so that was wild to methat he got all these people but
they all just kind of wanted theexposure and Olivia Hussey she
was she relied on psychics foradvice and a psychic told her
that she would go to Canada makea movie and it would make a lot
(30:40):
of money and that was the onlyreason she accepted Black
Christmas.
Yeah and she did and it did yeahand then but this same psychic
told her that she was going tomarry Paul McCartney and Margot
Kidder used to tease hermercilessly about how that's not
coming true.
Oh my god you can't you can'talways be right I guess she's
gonna be wrong about some ofthem I know but it was really
(31:05):
interesting that they kind ofBob really made a lot of the
shifts to the script settingdoing it younger adults it was
shot in Toronto in 1974 probablycost about six hundred eighty
six thousand dollars which isprobably like just over a
million now some of the famouspeople that almost got cast
Elvira because Sandra Petersonwas almost Jess and Betty Davis
(31:28):
was going to be the house mothercan you imagine Betty Davis as
the house mother oh my god thatwould have been amazing yeah
yeah but didn't happen obviouslyand they filmed it all at the
University of Toronto but thesorority house that you see is
not really a sorority house it'sactually a real house can you
imagine living in that thing?
SPEAKER_06 (31:47):
No I read that it was like a 20 room house which
is that's insane like that's waytoo many rooms what are you
gonna do with all those roomsbut so many rooms actually I I
tell Brian sometimes because helikes big houses and I'm like
what are you gonna do with thatyou got to clean it all he's
like no you have maze for thatand I was like okay but like
what are you gonna do about the18 other rooms that you're not
(32:09):
using like this is and the dudethat's living up in the attic.
SPEAKER_03 (32:12):
Yeah it's so big you don't even know in one of your
20 rooms it wouldn't even be theattic they could just be hanging
out in one of your 20 roomsdon't do it Juan don't do it.
SPEAKER_06 (32:22):
No I don't I don't think so yeah we talked about
this frogging idea I don't knowif you know what that means
frogging but it's basically thisidea of like some stranger
living inside of your house andlike eating your food when
you're not there like basicallyutilizing your space when you
are not living inside of yourhouse.
SPEAKER_03 (32:42):
Yeah it's not even an idea it's like a thing like
people frog like they and peoplelike will set up cameras because
they're like oh my god like whydo I have a little bit less milk
than I did the night before andthen they'll figure out someone
has been living in their housewithout them knowing.
Brett (32:57):
So scary that is like the worst.
Yeah that's like somebody in mycar.
I mean I just know I just alwaystake the backseat.
SPEAKER_06 (33:05):
Yeah and again it's this idea of like someone
invading your space where you'resupposed to be feeling safe you
know like warm, cozy, whateverand it's just no thank you.
I'm good.
Brett (33:14):
Yeah.
Well what was interesting isthey remade this movie twice in
the 2000s once in 2006 once in2019.
And Bob Clark was involved withthe remake of 2006.
He was an executive producer andit was the last movie that he
ever worked on.
So it's kind of poetic that thisone that made him really famous
(33:35):
he finished remaking it rightbefore he passed away but I just
don't think that the remakes doit justice.
SPEAKER_03 (33:42):
I mean I think the original is the way to go I
don't know if you guys watchedthe remakes did you we have not
we considered watching I thinkthe 2019 remake for Scary Movie
Night but didn't didn't win.
SPEAKER_06 (33:55):
It didn't win that was my suggestion I was like I
want to watch the newestiteration and yeah we watched
the Lodge instead which is wasstill an excellent film but not
quite as Christmassy.
SPEAKER_03 (34:06):
Yeah we did have the conversation of like was the law
it did happen around Christmasbut it wasn't as Christmassy as
Black Christmas even though likefor neither movie like Christmas
was not like a central part ofthe plot necessarily it was like
kind of a side little side thingbut this one just felt very
(34:27):
Christmassy.
I think also like just the theset like the set itself really
like lent itself and then alsothe Christmas carolers which was
beautiful of that scene.
Brett (34:38):
Oh all those lights and all those carolers and stuff and
I got the impression I mean thesetup is basically girls in a
sorority house and I got theimpression that Christmas was
coming.
They were all getting ready toleave and that's kind of why
when somebody disappears youjust think oh well they just
went home or something likethat.
Although I kept screaming atthem going there's suitcases
(35:00):
right there.
SPEAKER_03 (35:00):
I mean come on even the cop didn't say anything
about the suitcase literally Imean I was like there's two
suitcases people but I don'tknow like I was I was telling
Joanne it's like they're incollege where like honestly like
being in college is crazy.
Like the rules go out the windowand like people don't lock their
doors anymore.
Like there's that one part wherethey're like I think this is the
(35:22):
only locked door in the wholehouse and they like go around
trying to lock all the doorslittle do they know the killer
is already inside the house butyeah it was just like really
really funny like that I I thinkthat college students I think
that felt very real.
It's like they would be like ohI don't know maybe she just
threw herself in a bag and likeleft her suitcases for whatever
(35:42):
reason like I I I didn't taketoo much issue with that because
I was in college and doors werenot locked very often.
Brett (35:51):
So you just think you're gonna live forever when you're
in college and you don't reallyworry about safety.
I don't know it's it's one ofthose things.
But I really liked it becauseunlike American slashers that
kind of came later we always hadhigh schoolers and I kind of
like the idea of college womenand then they could address a
few more things like we weretalking about there is an entire
(36:11):
plot line about abortion that isin the movie and it was the same
year as Roe v.
Wade is that right yeah yeah andthere's a lot of like feminist
angles in the movie a lot ofrelationship toxic stuff the
struggle with mother anddaughter just all of these
different things about womenthat surprisingly pop up in this
(36:34):
movie and it surprisingly haslike some people that call it a
feminist movie although I wouldargue any movie that has
sorority girls getting pickedoff one by one is probably not a
feminist movie.
SPEAKER_03 (36:44):
Yeah but I am glad that they put all of that in
there and you know spoiler alertOlivia Hussey is one that is
considering having an abortionbecause of her her boyfriend and
it creates a great tension inthe film you kind of wonder oh
is he really angry about thisenough to kill people I think
(37:04):
it's also interesting likewhenever I was watching the
movie like femicide is like areally big thing in like a lot
of Latin American countriesespecially and so like the idea
like the whole time I waswatching I was like oh it's
Peter like Peter's pissed thatshe wants to have an abortion
and he's gonna kill her becauseit's something that's
unfortunately really common.
I also think like women's likesexuality is something that was
(37:28):
kind of like important in themovie because you have like the
dad who's worried about hisdaughter Claire coming into her
room and she's got like allthese naughty posters of people
who are naked and stuff likethat, which is completely
normal.
But obviously like he's you knowstarting to see his daughter in
this different lens and I alsothought that was really
(37:48):
interesting because he hisdaughter's missing and like why
are you so concerned with what'sgoing on like in her house like
where where is your kid andshe's like literally upstairs
but anyway and and also we wetalked about how it's
interesting usually in theseslashers the the trope tends to
be like oh the virgin is the onewho survives but in this film
(38:10):
like you have the virgin who isClaire and she is the first one
murdered she a virgin I think sobecause they well I think it's
important.
Yes they teach her yes Margotyes being inexperienced and then
we have like our final girl Jesswho is literally pregnant out of
wenlock so I thought that waskind of interesting.
Brett (38:32):
So like the one girl we know is not a virgin is the
final girl in this film whichwas really interesting yeah well
I would argue that most of thegirls in the film are not and
they're very they make it verypainfully aware.
SPEAKER_11 (38:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (38:47):
And I I actually I totally forgot about Margot
Kitter's character Barb teasingClaire about being a virgin but
I don't know I mean is herboyfriend they just seemed like
you know and then she put allthese naked pictures around yeah
I mean maybe that's the imagethat she wanted to like curate
for herself you know what I meanbecause like her dad is so like
(39:08):
overprotective of and defensiveof her she didn't want anything
like that getting out but it wasreally interesting.
I mean we talked about this likesubversion of and I'm and I let
me preface this by saying noteverything has to mean something
okay but I was like oh this isvery interesting how it's like
(39:29):
the idea of like the virginbirth of like the baby Jesus
being celebrated in Christmasand then also like the
antithesis of that being Jesswanting to get an abortion right
around Christmas time.
Where it's it's like instead ofa white Christmas it's black
Christmas and so you have sortof like death in all of its
(39:51):
forms in a way.
Brett (39:53):
Well you know they struggled with that title.
Yeah they did they didn't wantto call it that and when they
released in the US originallyit's Called Silent Night, Evil
Night, because they feared thatBlack Christmas would make
people think that it was a blackexploitation film.
Understandable.
SPEAKER_06 (40:09):
It would mean something totally different.
Understandable.
They also had another name whenthey were releasing it for TV.
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (40:17):
Stranger and The Stranger in the House, yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (40:19):
Yeah.
And I was like, Mark, theyshould have just stuck to one
name.
I mean, you'd think that itwould get confusing after a
while.
Like, which movie is this again?
Oh, it's the one movie, but it'sgot three names.
Brett (40:30):
Yeah, no, yeah, definitely.
But you know, I think that thatwas a big thing in the 70s.
I think that they thought aboutmarkets and renaming things so
that it would translate to eachmarket.
And I don't know.
So they were very and I thinkthey were scared of that title,
Black Christmas, because the2006 remake faced a lot of
backlash because the moms forAmerica or whatever were
(40:54):
convinced that they were goingto put you know violence around
the holidays, which I mean theydid, but they didn't want that
essentially.
I know.
But what was funny is the 2006version, Andrea Martin actually
comes back.
She plays the house mother in2006.
And the 2006 version kind offleshes out the killer a little
(41:17):
bit and gives them a motivationand then all of that, which I
yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (41:22):
But the 2019 didn't have a motivation.
Like, I like that we don't knowanything about him.
Like so scary.
SPEAKER_06 (41:30):
All you know about him is that he has an eye.
He has at least one eye.
Brett (41:35):
Oh, and I mean, my gosh, uh you never see the killer, but
you hear him, and those callsare the wildest thing I've
heard.
I mean, it's like the exorcistalmost.
I mean, it's just like I cannotimagine that some human actually
acted these things out.
And they say that he largelyimproved a lot of the calls, and
they were just they were crazy.
(41:56):
I mean, I was just like, wow.
SPEAKER_06 (41:58):
They were really horrible.
I honestly loved that aspect ofthe film as well.
I mean, it added to the mystery,but the mystery isn't that he
wants to hurt them.
You know, that's the only thingabout the killer that's not
mysterious.
He's very like violent andaggressive, possibly mentally
deranged because of like thedifferent voices and you know
(42:20):
what he's saying to them andwhat he's actually doing.
And like the the fact that theviolence is what's sure about
the killer, I think makes himeven more it's almost like
personifying evil, like youknow, like an anti-Santa Claus,
right?
Brett (42:37):
But there you go.
That's the whole idea.
That was the invention of thetrope.
The idea that you're beingstalked by pure evil with no
intention other than somethingthat is gonna take you out, like
Michael Myers, Jason Borges,Freddie Krueger, they're not
picking you because of someweird thing that you did or, you
know, anything like that.
They're just picking you becauseyou happen to be in the way like
(42:59):
a great white shark, and theyjust want to take everybody out
down.
And that's what's kind ofinteresting about what Bob Clark
set up with Black Christmas, isthat he did all of that before
anybody was really doing that.
Now, what's funny though is the2019 remake actually completely
changes the plot.
It's the killers, it's not evenclose.
And it has to do with likewitchcraft and supernatural
(43:23):
stuff, and they made it PG 13because they wanted kids to go
see it.
SPEAKER_03 (43:28):
Okay.
Intrigued, but that feels likeit's a different movie.
Like you need to know it's not adifferent name.
Brett (43:35):
Yeah, you should have just called it something else,
but yeah, yeah, yeah.
But that's okay.
But it was really funny.
Olivia Hussey met Steve Martinat a casting later in her
career.
And he said, you know, you werein one of my favorite films.
And she was like, What?
You like Romeo and Juliet?
And he was like, No, I likeBlack Christmas.
I've seen it like 27 times.
(43:56):
She was just like, Oh my gosh.
Honestly, that would be me.
SPEAKER_06 (44:00):
That would be me.
I was like, girl, you slayed inBlack Christmas, okay?
SPEAKER_03 (44:06):
Literally, no, it was so good, and her hair looked
so good like the whole time.
And then I re like I was tellingJoanne, like Romeo and Juliet
was the movie that our teacherplayed us in high school when we
were reading Romeo and Juliet.
So I like didn't realize ituntil I was doing the research
for the podcast, and I was like,oh my god, like she was Juliet.
(44:27):
Like, and she like that movie islike it's really good.
Although we were talking aboutthe fact that she was like 14
when she was shooting it and shewas doing nude scenes, which is
like not good.
Yeah, crazy.
But I didn't realize it was her,but she she was great.
I thought she was she was myfavorite character in the movie.
Brett (44:48):
The cast for this is really on fire, and they're
really good.
And I think Bob Clark had saidsomething that you know you can
have a pretty good script aslong as you have a really great
cast, you can make somethingreally good.
But if the script doesn't liveup to it, no, we were saying
that if it you have a goodscript and a mediocre cast, they
can bring it down.
They can make it worse.
(45:08):
And I think these people reallyupped a lot of their stuff.
And then the funny thing, thethe house mother character, he
based her on his aunt who usedto hide bottles of booze all
over the house.
Very successfully.
Yes, she did, but you know, mybig question was all of these
girls are like drunk already.
So why was she having to hideanything?
SPEAKER_03 (45:30):
That's what I said.
I was like, they're they can goget alcohol on their own.
It's Canada.
Is the drinking age in Canadaalso 21 or is it 18?
Brett (45:38):
I don't think even in the US, I think it was only 18 at
this point.
SPEAKER_03 (45:41):
Okay, so why all the cloak and dagger about the
alcohol crazy?
SPEAKER_06 (45:48):
I guess so.
I guess she didn't want tothink.
Yeah, I told Mariana, I waslike, this lady took straight up
shots from the bottle, okay?
You could smell it on herbreath.
You already know those girlsknew she was drunk.
AF.
Brett (46:02):
Like Well isn't funny because it reminded me of
American, like the facts oflife, only just really, really
alcoholic.
I was like, oh my god, Mrs.
Garrett's a drunk.
SPEAKER_06 (46:14):
Yeah, she was uh she was one of Mars' favorite
characters in the whole in thewhole movie.
Brett (46:20):
She really does get a good part.
I mean, come on.
You know, anytime that she getsto be drunk and and run around
looking for a cat in a horrormovie.
Well, and you always know that'sgonna be in badly.
SPEAKER_06 (46:31):
Well, and you know, it's it's really good because
she offered so much comedicrelief in this way and like a
touch of realness, you know,like like grounding it just a
little bit more.
And that's one of the reasons Ilove this movie.
The pacing is so good.
He really reaches that balanceof like lightheartedness at some
points, you know, with like thedrunk house mother and the dad
(46:52):
being such like such a like hasa stick up his butt and and the
cop being so inner inept and theother detective giggling, and
but then you also have likereally horrific scenes.
And I feel like when a horrormovie makes you laugh and gives
you the shivers, like that'sreally when it hits for me.
(47:13):
Like it's just such a greatbalance that they hit with this
particular movie.
SPEAKER_03 (47:18):
Yeah, there was like depth to it, like it wasn't just
horror, but there was like youknow, all these real life, very
like kind of heavy things goingon.
Like Barb is clearly drunk, shedoes not have a good
relationship with her mom, andJess is pregnant with this guy
who frankly sucks, and he breaksa piano at the music school,
(47:41):
which is not okay.
So it it made it feel very likegrounded, but then it was a
little bit funny and it wasscary, and then it was
Christmas, so it was great.
Brett (47:51):
Well, neither of you had seen it before, right?
Do you think that this would besomething that you could put on
at Christmas time every yearwith like a glass of like really
strong eggnog or somethingalcoholic?
SPEAKER_03 (48:03):
Yeah.
Brett (48:03):
And watch.
SPEAKER_03 (48:04):
I think we gotta make a drinking game out of this
movie.
And go.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (48:09):
Every time they show Claire in the in the attic,
which every time someone doesn'tnotice this dead girl in the
attic window, literally.
I told her I was like, does hemove her in the daytime or
something?
Because man, she is so obviouslyup there.
SPEAKER_03 (48:25):
She's up there.
SPEAKER_06 (48:27):
Just staring out with a bag.
I'm like, girl, please.
Brett (48:30):
I know, but actually what's really funny, the the
actress that played Claire was aswimmer and they hired her
basically because she could holdher breath with that plastic bag
over her face.
SPEAKER_03 (48:40):
Which is so scary because okay, like even if you
like stop holding your breathbecause you're between takes,
you can't keep that bag on yourhead because then you're just
gonna be inhaling a bunch ofcarbon dioxide.
I would be so paranoid if I wereshooting that.
I'd be like, take it off, takeit off right now and breathe.
Brett (48:57):
Oh no, this is the 70s, they didn't care.
SPEAKER_03 (48:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (48:59):
That's what I'm saying.
That's what I'm saying.
You're so right.
We talk about one of theseclassic, you know, 70s movies or
before, maybe even the 80s, it'slike some horrible stuff they
made people do.
SPEAKER_03 (49:10):
Like Yeah, people are entitled to financial
compensation.
SPEAKER_06 (49:13):
Oh my god.
I mean, like when you thinkabout like Linda Blair, for
example, what happened to her?
Oh Lord.
The actress who played hermother, the cast from Texas
Chainsaw Massacre, you know.
Oh my god.
All of these people were likeinjured while shooting, and it
was like no one really caredbecause it's it was the seven,
like it was a lawless placefilmmaking, you know, at this
(49:34):
point.
And I'm glad now that actorshave rights and you know, like
there are certain ways that youcan't.
SPEAKER_03 (49:40):
Intimacy coordinators and intimacy
coordinators, exactly.
SPEAKER_06 (49:44):
You know, like it's good that the industry has
evolved to protect people.
And but man, like listening tosome of the stories from back
then was like, hey, just putthis plastic bag over your head,
you'll be fine.
You're a swimmer, right?
Just hold your breath.
Brett (49:59):
You'll be fine.
Fine.
No problem.
Well, you know, in in the 70s,and I think particularly in this
time period, horror movies werereally made on the cheap.
And studios would not throwmoney at them because they were
convinced that they wouldn'tmake a lot of money.
And this actually made a lot ofmoney when it was released, and
it's it still to this day kindof has a cult following.
(50:20):
I don't think everybody knows itas well as like Halloween or
Friday the 13th or somethinglike that, because I think it
was one of those under theradar, but the can't the
Canadian film industry likerecognizes it as one of their
biggest hits.
SPEAKER_03 (50:32):
I loved it, and I'm gonna start telling everyone
about it because I'd never heardof it until Joanne told me about
it.
And yeah, I because we want todo a Christmas movie to be
released on Christmas, because Ithink Christmas is a Thursday
this year.
So so yeah, I hadn't even heardof this.
SPEAKER_06 (50:48):
Um, let me tell you to go back to your question
about do you think I could sitthere and watch this movie with
a really strong alcoholiceggnog?
The answer is a resolute yes.
In between Hallmark movies,we're gonna put on Black
Christmas, okay?
And we're gonna have a littlebit of horror injected into that
(51:10):
day.
I absolutely love this movie.
I mean, I I heard about thismovie a very long time ago.
I don't know, Brett, if youremember.
There was a channel called E.
Yes, of course.
Yeah.
And they had they released this101 scariest movie moments.
And it was like it was like a, Idon't know, three or four hour
(51:34):
series of these like horrormovie actors, comedians,
directors, and they broke downlike scenes from uh like
essentially a bunch of scarymovies, and it was like the 101
scary.
This movie was like uh close toclose to the top, and I was
like, Black Christmas, what isthat?
And I was so intrigued becauseagain, it's the idea of like
(51:57):
this warm, cozy holiday thatyou're supposed to spend with
your family, just likecompletely upended ever since
then.
I mean, it's been so long,Brett, since I saw that.
I mean, I was probably half myage, to be honest, since I
watched that, and like nowcoming now to finally having
watched it, reviewing it withMarr and reviewing it with you
here on this podcast, like feelslike such a great moment for me
(52:20):
of like, man, I love horror andI have always loved horror, you
know, and it's five out of five.
Brett (52:27):
Yeah, no, it's a fun.
I I it is one of my favoritesjust because it pioneered a lot
of things.
And it was way before a lot ofthe slashers had set up their
tropes.
And I think it was just so neatto watch something that was that
early and knew what it was goingto be what the next 15 years of
movies were gonna be.
SPEAKER_11 (52:48):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (52:50):
Oh my god.
Yeah, I I I did make that pointduring the podcast too.
It was like, man, like this cameout by the way, the same year as
the Texas Chainsaw Massacre,which is one of my top three
horror movies of all time.
This this movie informedHalloween, like you said it
Friday the 13th.
Like you you you were talkingabout earlier at Nightmare on
Elm Street.
And I it even informed Scream alittle bit, you know, with like
(53:12):
the phone calls and like the whois this?
Like there's a stranger in myhouse.
And they're coming from outside.
From literally right over there,yeah.
So I no, I I really love thismovie and and it gave me a new
appreciation for slashers that Idon't think I had before
watching this movie because likelike getting to see the origins
of the slasher essentially, likethose slasher tropes, and and
(53:35):
and and and having it executedso beautifully, you know.
I'm like, yes, I can see like ithelps me deconstruct other
movies a little bit more, andand I just absolutely love that.
Brett (53:46):
Yeah.
But Mariana, what do you think?
In conclusion.
SPEAKER_03 (53:51):
In conclusion, everyone should go watch this.
I love when a horror moviestands up as like more than just
a horror movie.
Like I think Sinners was soamazing, and it like it goes
beyond be like, yes, it's amovie about vampires, but
there's just so much more to it.
And it's it's just like I don'tknow, the plot is just so solid
(54:15):
and like the storyline is reallygood and like the acting is
great.
And I I thought this movie wasjust like very like holistically
solid and it stands on its own,like just as like a great film,
and also happens to be a greathorror film that happens to be
around Christmas time.
So I really, really enjoyed itso much.
It's like it's a thriller, andit's you know, it's about what I
(54:38):
think this movie, I could bewrong, but I think it passes the
Beck Delta.
Brett (54:41):
Oh, I'm sure it does.
It's all women.
SPEAKER_03 (54:43):
Yeah, it's all women.
So but they have to be nottalking about men.
So I think that I'm I'm gonna gore-watch it the first 15
minutes, but I just really likedit.
Brett (54:54):
I think there are some sequences where they don't talk
about men.
I I definitely I mean, of coursethey talk about sex lives of
turtles, but there you go.
SPEAKER_11 (55:03):
Yes.
Brett (55:04):
So okay, so Johanna Mariana, you can find them at
Scary Movie Nights.
Is it scary movie nights or justnight?
SPEAKER_06 (55:10):
Scary movie nights.
Nights with an S.
Brett (55:12):
With an S.
So plural.
So many, many scary movies andscary movie nights.
Okay, so a podcast, obviously,where the scares are real, but
the friendships are realer.
You can find them on YouTube,all major podcasting sites.
Facebook, I think I can findyou.
The Gram, Instagram, the Gram.
The Grams, TikTok, TikTok, allmajor social media things.
(55:37):
And I think it's so cool thatyou guys get together and talk
about scary movies.
And it's such a nice combinationof like the two least likely.
Because usually when you gethorror movie podcasts, you get
these kind of like basementtroll people that listen to
heavy metal or something, andyou just get this weird vibe of
like, you know, oh yeah, likepending doom, or yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (55:59):
Or just regular folk.
SPEAKER_06 (56:00):
We're just exactly and extremely bubbly, actually.
Now that you now that youmention it, we're just like, oh
my god, scary movies.
SPEAKER_11 (56:06):
Oh but it it brings like a Christmas vibe.
Brett (56:12):
So there you are.
Full circle.
SPEAKER_11 (56:18):
Oh man.
Brett (56:21):
Thank you for listening to Queer Voices.
We have been a show on KPFT 90.1Houston for over five decades
now.
And if you're in the holidayspirit, please consider donating
at KPFT.org so we can keepgoing.
I am Brett Cullum, a producer ofthe show.
Brian Lavinka is our legacyproducer, along with Deborah
(56:42):
Moncrief Bell.
Contributors include DavisMendoza DeRuzman, Joel Tatum,
and Jacob Newsome.
Special correspondent and myhusband is R.
Lee Ingalls.
Happy holidays and cheers to2026.
I mean, it's gotta be better,right?
Hello and welcome to Queer Voices.
This is our special holidayepisode.
I am Brett Cullum, and I havesome great segments to unwrap
for you tonight.
First up, I get to speak withJohn Cameron Mitchell, the man
who wrote and created Hedwig andthe Angry Inch.
He's coming to town on December28th to Numbers Nightclub for a
special screening of his movieand a performance.
(00:25):
After that, I talk to the hostsof Scary Moving Nights Podcast.
Joan and Mariana talk to meabout my favorite holiday film
that I'm probably watching rightnow.
It's Black Christmas.
So, happy holidays, or Holigase,as I like to say.
Get your wig out of the box, puton your cha-cha heels on Queer
Voices Holiday Edition.
(00:45):
It's starting now.
SPEAKER_00 (00:52):
This is KPFT 90.1 FM Houston, 89.5 FM Galveston, 91.9
FM Huntsville, and worldwide onthe internet at KPFT.org.
Brett (01:14):
Hi, this is Brett Cullum, and today I'm with John Cameron
Mitchell.
He's an exceptional artist withan impressive array of credits
that many people probably arenot aware of.
He's been on Broadway as a youngman in Big River, Six Degrees of
Separation, and The SecretGarden.
Probably his biggest claim tofame so far, and what you might
know him from, is he wrote withmusic input from Steven Trask,
(01:35):
and he starred in Hedwig and theAngry Inch, a rock musical about
a gender-blurred rock star fromEast Germany that won him a
Tony, and he turned into one ofthe best films of 2001.
He also wrote and directed ShortButts, directed Rabbit Hole with
Nicole Kidman, worked in filmswith Spike Lee, Michael Mann, he
starred as Joe Exotic oppositeKate McKinnon for a Peacock
(01:57):
series.
He has the world's coolestpodcast musical drama anthem,
Hymonculus, which starred himand Glenn Klose and Cynthia
Revo, Patty Lapone, just a fewfriends, as well as a new
podcast, Cancellation Island,starring Holly Hunter.
I mean, come on.
He's made albums.
He's set to take on the iconicrole of Mary Lincoln in Oh Mary
(02:19):
on Broadway, starting inFebruary for 12 weeks.
So welcome, John CameronMitchell, master of all media.
I am tired just reading this.
All right.
Well, the reason that you'rehere with me today is that you
are coming to Numbers Houston todo a special all-day event for
Hedwig and the Angry Inch.
It's going to happen on December28th.
(02:40):
The schedule features ascreening of his iconic film,
live commentary, post-showperformances with artists like
Amber Martin, and it's going tocelebrate queer cinema and music
at this huge venue.
And uh he's also doing a masterclass for students.
It's all brought to us by ArtHouse Houston, who were the
folks that fought to save theRiver Oaks movie theater.
So let me ask you first off thebat, how did you connect with
(03:02):
Art House?
What can we expect from thisevent?
SPEAKER_05 (03:05):
I was just reached out to by Maureen McNamara over
there.
My friend Amber Martin is fromSoutheast Texas and used to hang
out at Numbers.
And my buddy Jonathan Cohet, ofcourse, from Tarnation, lives in
Houston still and used to hangout there too.
And it's Visions New Wave Clubin the 80s.
(03:26):
So I and I've I I haven't beento Houston a whole lot, just
popped in here here and there.
We've DJ'd there but with Amberand I have.
And her family's in the Airarea.
So she's gonna join me and do acouple songs.
She recorded a country albumdown there in uh Beaumont, I
think.
(03:46):
So I am really you know, Maureencame up with this idea.
There's a master class.
I just talk about my career andwhere we are today in terms of
creativity.
I do a kind of a drunkdirector's commentary during
Hedvig.
And then after there might be afew questions, but then we'll do
a few songs with the localguitarist me and Amber.
(04:09):
Oh awesome.
Brett (04:10):
Well, I've heard a lot of songs with you and Amber on
Amazon music, so I'll be excitedto hear this.
Now, going back to the genesisof Hedwig, how did you end up
with musician Steven Trask?
I know he was the music directorand house band member at New
York City Club Squeeze Box,where I think Hedwig was born,
right?
I mean, what made you joinforces for this?
SPEAKER_05 (04:32):
Well, we met in an airplane.
I was looking for someone whowas a rock composer that wasn't
necessarily in the theaterworld.
And he he wasn't, he certainlyhad worked on dramatic things
like scores for a short film andstuff like that, but he was very
eclectic.
I went to see his band at C CBGB's, he went to see me he went
(04:55):
to see me perform at Lake Centerin a show called Hello Again.
And I was already thinking abouta piece that used the origin of
love, the myth from Plato.
And that was the That was thecenter of the story.
And you know, we were hangingout at the squeeze box club,
(05:18):
which was our favorite place.
My boyfriend was in his bandplaying bass and he said, I can
get you a gig, but you have todo the female character because
it's a drag club and I had neverreally done a drag before.
I was kind of scared of it.
Being a gay boy, you know,scared of my femininity.
Then I realized it was a a agreat honor to have energies
that we might think of as maleor female within us.
(05:40):
I you know, I don't like theterm non-binary.
It's an imperfect one becauseit's a negative.
I don't like being defined bywhat I'm not.
But I like terms likeandrogynous, you know, it's like
these are energies of all kindsthat are within us.
We're not we're not a not, we'rea something, and we're a lot of
(06:00):
things.
So Hedwig is the same, you know,a little boy we might think of
as non-binary today, kind offorced into an operation to
escape in Germany, to to escapemarry a GI and then abandoned,
you know, as a woman that hedidn't really want to be,
watching the wall come down, andthen where do we go from here?
(06:22):
So it's very much a story ofsurvival, of you know,
recovering from trauma, offinding yourself letting go of
grudges, letting go of of hatredand resentment.
The character is quite resentfuland then starts to forgive,
starts to let go.
(06:43):
Yeah.
Brett (06:43):
It was a great journey.
But do you feel like there's abig difference between the film
versus the stage show?
Is it I know I've seen bothincarnations, but what do you
feel is kind of the differencehere?
SPEAKER_05 (06:55):
Well, obviously in the play, I mean, for those who
have seen it, uh it's aone-person show, really, and
they do pretty much all thecharacters, you know, telling
the story and through theirvoices.
There's just the only othercharacters are the band and the
backup singer, Yitzhak.
And in the film, all the peoplethat are portrayed in the play,
we've seen them.
(07:16):
Tommy, Hedwig's mom and dad,Luther, all the people that are
only intimated as part of themultitude that is within Hedwig.
So the film is an opportunity toopen it up to see the situations
that are only described.
And singing to Hedwig Tom uhTommy singing to Hedwig and
(07:41):
Hedwig singing to Tommy, whereasin the play they're just one and
the same.
Which metaphorically works, youknow, when Hedwig becomes Tommy
at the end, and then we're notsure who sh ambiguity.
Brett (07:54):
Do you have anybody that's your favorite Hedwig
other than you?
SPEAKER_05 (07:57):
I there's a lot of people I really like.
I mean, Darren Chris was great.
Uh this guy in Berlin named SvenRodska was great.
Matt McGrath was probably myfavorite other Hedwig.
Brett (08:09):
You know, I I have to admit something to you.
I've seen Hedwig a lot, and Ihave to say my favorite ones are
usually the ones that are inthese little small theaters or
nightclubs that are just doingit because they love it.
You know?
And it speaks to them.
And I'm just like, wow.
Well, obviously you are shiftinggears right after this Hedwig
thing, and you're going toO'Mary.
So how the heck did you get tobe a replacement person in
(08:32):
O'Mary?
SPEAKER_05 (08:34):
Well, it's not that much of a leap.
Is it?
No.
I mean, you know, the O'MaryCole is an old friend and Okay.
You know, Cole comes from atradition of drag theater that
stretches back to the sixtiesand John Bicaro, Charles Ludlum,
Charles Bush.
Who are all people who inspiredme.
(08:56):
So we're all of the same world,you know, in downtown queerish,
queer facing entertainment andand art.
So people like Bridget Everett,Coles, Cola, Justin Divian Bond,
Anoni, the Scissor Sisters.
These all we all come from thesame font.
Brett (09:14):
But stepping into somebody's play that you didn't
write, I mean obviously Hedwigwas your own invention, and this
is Kohl's.
That's their play.
SPEAKER_05 (09:22):
So is it have a different energy when you kind
of come in or Well, I mean, inthis case, i it does borrow from
the ancient traditions, as Isaid, of drag theater, and part
of that ancient tradition isimprovisation and ad libbing and
in lost drag, you know.
And with the people who haveplayed it since Cole, like Jinx
(09:42):
Wonsoon, for example, have verymuch made it their own to the
point I can couldn't quiteremember what other people did
because they're reallyencouraged to make it their own
and they're quite different.
And maybe that which is sort ofthe way, you know, Hello Hello
Dolly was in the sixties.
You know, Pearl Bailey wouldfollow you know, Carol Channing.
And it's like, you know, there'snothing similar about them.
(10:05):
So to me that is part of theCommedia del Arte kind of
tradition of this kind oftheater.
And the same as Hedwig.
Brett (10:13):
Exactly.
I mean I've seen so manydifferent iterations of Hedwig,
it's kinda neat.
Everybody brings somethingdifferent.
So who are your co-stars forO'Marry?
SPEAKER_05 (10:22):
I think they've announced they didn't tell me,
but someone else did it.
Yes.
Someone they didn't tell me.
Why didn't they tell me?
See Simo Liu from the Shang-Chimovie is taking over as Mary's
acting teacher.
Of course.
(10:42):
And apparently he is a real Imean he's a hilarious guy and
comes from Canada, has done alot of theater.
So I'm very much looking forwardto that.
Brett (10:54):
I I'm so jealous.
I have such a crush on him, sobut and and you, of course, too.
But Mary, Todd, Lincoln, andHedwig.
Do they have anything in common?
SPEAKER_05 (11:04):
Well, I think they both feel like second bananas,
you know, to Lincoln and orTommy Gnosis.
So there is definitely this kindof resentment of not really
getting their dude, which iscertainly Mary.
And Hedwig, you know, Hedwig'ssongs are stolen, not Mary's,
but she's not allowed toperform.
She's not allowed to be herself.
(11:26):
So yeah, there is a lot incomedy.
Brett (11:29):
Okay, this show is gonna air on Christmas Eve.
So I wanted to ask you, whatwould a John Cameron Mitchell
holiday look like?
SPEAKER_05 (11:37):
Well, I'm not so much into the rel yeah obviously
obviously, but not so much intothe religious stuff.
So but you know, Christmas is aa cr created thing.
You know, the date was takenfrom the birth date of the god
Mithras.
You know, it's like and it wasconnected to the solstice,
right?
So the you know, no one reallyknows when Jesus was born or uh
(12:00):
if he was born.
And then Santa Claus is a wholeother thing, and like there's
all these you know it'ssyncretism.
That's when you take differentreligious things and ram them
together.
And to me, the more rammed thethe better.
Because it's it's uh what I likeabout it is really the getting
(12:21):
together thing, the gift giving,you know, not so much the uh the
fighting about what is right,what what actually happened, you
know.
Historical details, you know, tome it's the spirit and you know
the we have to the spirit ofgenerosity, of course, is a
lovely one and to me, but youknow, the actual day means less
(12:45):
to me.
I give presents all all year.
I don't give them the Christmas.
Brett (12:49):
Oh well, I'm definitely gonna play Tiny Tree Christmas
by by you and bitch.
So that's a cute uh but thankyou so much for taking this time
with me.
I know you've got to.
Oh, you're welcome.
And getting ready for yourBroadway role as Mary Todd
Lincoln, getting ready topresent everything at numbers
with us on December 28th, whichArt House Houston.
(13:11):
I love them, love Maureen.
So glad they're bringing youinto town.
It's just a dream to finally getto see you.
Will you be there?
Oh my gosh.
Oh, yeah.
Yes.
Like the second it wasannounced.
SPEAKER_05 (13:22):
I was like, oh, forget this.
Throw it in.
Well, Jonathan will be theretoo.
Brett (13:26):
No, really.
Yeah.
Oh, how funny.
I have not seen him since wewere in like nightclubs together
somewhere, stumbling around.
I'll be like, hey, blast fromthe past.
SPEAKER_05 (13:42):
Well, thank you so much.
No problem.
You take care.
SPEAKER_11 (13:46):
You too.
SPEAKER_05 (13:47):
Okay.
Bye.
Deborah (13:56):
This radio program, We're Voices, has existed since
the 1970s on KPFT.
We have this little crew offolks working every week to
produce what's no longer uniquebecause we're almost mainstream
now, but we're still animportant voice that might not
(14:19):
otherwise get heard because it'snot on that many places.
So KPFT is very important togive voices to those who might
not otherwise have voices.
So as Glenn always says, youparticipate by listening, but
you should also participate bysupporting the station.
(14:41):
So please go to kpft.org andmake your donation right away.
SPEAKER_10 (14:59):
I went to twins weird.
Brett (17:56):
Hi, this is Brett, and today I am joined by Joan and
Mariana from Scary Movie Nights.
They are a podcast where thescares are real, but the
friendships are realer.
I just had to do that to youguys.
Oh, I have to do the thing, thelittle heart screen.
You can't even see it.
Yes.
They are you can find them onYouTube, which is one of the
most fun ways to watch Joan andMariana, because they usually do
(18:17):
it.
Don't you guys usually do it ona bed?
Like you're on either side ofthe bed sitting there?
SPEAKER_03 (18:22):
Yes.
Brett (18:23):
Yeah, that's what I thought.
SPEAKER_03 (18:24):
Yeah, it's like a day bed.
Brett (18:27):
Yes.
Yeah, I don't want it to soundtoo lascivious, like, ooh,
yellow in bed.
SPEAKER_03 (18:33):
Yellow in bed.
SPEAKER_06 (18:35):
You know it's like back in the day when they had
like the the wife and thehusband slept in separate beds
on like the opposite sides ofthe room.
Brett (18:42):
Yes, you were divided by microphones, headphones, and
like a major portion of the bed.
Unless remember, you you're kindof like a gay guy in his
besties, so it totally makessense.
All right.
You also can find scary movienights on all major podcasting
sites.
You can get the audio version,you get the video version, or
whatever you want to do.
But I brought them in to talkabout seasonal horror movies
(19:06):
because spoiler alert, I reallykind of don't like traditional
Christmas movies.
I ugh.
They're just there's somethingabout them.
They're just treacly and they'resweet.
It's kind of like Hallmarkmovies.
I don't do those either.
Oh I know, and you're making thespace wrong.
SPEAKER_11 (19:22):
Listen.
SPEAKER_06 (19:24):
Okay.
Oh wow.
So so Brian and I have this newOkay, wait, wait, wait, wait,
wait.
Let me explain.
Brian and I have this Christmastradition where Christmas Day,
it's just the two of us, nobodyelse.
We stay home, open presents, andthen we just like eat snacks,
like play around with ourpresents and watch Hallmark
(19:45):
Christmas movies all day.
Because you know that channelwill get you before the credits
even start stop rolling from thelast one.
Like they'll play, like, startplaying the movie with the
credits like half screen.
So yeah, we uh your bottom soyou got another 12 of them well
(20:06):
okay let me ask you guys yeahyou're crazy for that but that's
horror yeah but let me ask youthis like growing up what did
you watch when it was Christmastime honestly uh we never really
watched Christmas movies as afamily like I I can't ever
(20:26):
remember being like oh my godlet's put this on let's put that
on I remember when I was youngwatching Elf yeah a lot I really
loved that movie I thought itwas so funny to this day it's
like one of my favoriteChristmas movies but in Honduras
like we mostly just celebratedthe night before Christmas so
like Christmas Eve was like thebig celebration and we'd stay up
(20:49):
through midnight you know andthen like at midnight
congratulate each other formaking it through I guess to
Christmas and then open presentsand then we'd like go to sleep
and wake up at noon.
SPEAKER_03 (21:00):
Like yeah same for me it's like the the beauty of
being married like as a Hispanicperson is a latin's being
married to a white man is thatmy family celebrates on the 24th
and then we got his family forthe 25th.
So it works out really nicely.
Think in Colombia the you knowChristmas it's a Catholic
(21:22):
country so the holidays are kindof like really centered around
you know the religious things sowe have like nine days leading
up to Christmas.
It's called the novena and yougo to someone's house and you
like basically you read thestory of like Mary and Joseph
you know making their way overto you know I don't even know
the story because I'm a terribleCatholic but it was really
(21:45):
centered around that but itwasn't till I came to the States
that I started watchingChristmas movies.
But I do love a Christmas movie.
I love Elf Home Alone Home Alone2 The Santa Claus the Santa
Claus 2 I'm there I love theholiday vibes I love snow we
don't get a lot of it here inHouston but I'll take it through
(22:06):
I'll take it on the TV.
I'll take snow where I can getit.
So I do love a Christmas movie.
I love Christmas lights I loveChristmas decorations like it
hot cocoa like I'm I'm bought infor all of it.
So I'm I'm sat for Christmasmovies.
Brett (22:21):
Well I brought you guys on board because I found out
that you were doing BlackChristmas for scary movie nights
and it is one of my favoriteChristmas movies and I thought
oh my gosh we have to talk aboutthis for you know between you
and me and Yohan and all I meancome on but I wanted to ask you
first you guys have watched alot of scary movies like tons.
(22:46):
I mean I could go through likeall of the titles that you've
done on your podcast and I'massuming a lot more but what do
you think makes a good Christmashorror movie?
What what makes Christmasespecially kind of scary?
SPEAKER_03 (22:58):
That's an excellent question.
And we were just talking aboutthis because we did just record
our episode on Black Christmaswhich I loved.
I'd never seen it before but forme it like it ticked a lot of
the boxes that I enjoy in aChristmas movie which is like
the general Christmas vibe likethere's it's snowing outside and
there's Christmas lights andthey're having like holiday
(23:19):
parties and like the decorationinside the house is like really
Christmassy.
But I think for this film andfor like as a horror film and
Joanne talked a lot about thisthe pacing was excellent.
I love the sound design and itreally was like a very like
simple but really strong premisebecause it's based on like you
(23:40):
know your typical like what isit urban legend about like you
know there's someone in thehouse with you.
The call is coming from insidethe house.
So you know the the the plot isvery straightforward but it's
very well executed.
And I think the the mystery ofthe killer and not knowing who
the killer is we never see hisface and we don't really know
(24:01):
his motives is so scary.
But I think especially likearound Christmas time it's like
a time to be with your family atime to be with your loved ones
which is something that thecharacters in this movie are not
doing because the the girls inin the movie are staying in the
sorority house for Christmas orat least Margot's character Barb
is but I think they're allstaying for Christmas.
(24:22):
So they're they're not withtheir families like they're
supposed to be but I think it'salso something about like your
personal space like your homebeing like invaded or someone
being there who's not supposedto be there I think is like
really just I thought this moviewas so good.
I was so surprised at how much Iliked it because I was like oh
like horror Christmas like Idon't really know what's gonna
(24:43):
happen here but it wasexcellent.
SPEAKER_06 (24:45):
I loved it.
Yeah and you know there are asurprisingly large amount of
horror Christmas movies.
I'm not saying they're all goodbut it's huge.
Yeah it's the it's an amazingamount and I subscribe to
Shudder as you know any goodhorror fan but I'm just saying
and and you can go through thislist of like curated Christmas
(25:09):
movies that they have andthey're all horror.
I watched one just the other daycalled A Creature was stirring
honestly not the not the besthorror movie.
But I think what's so scaryabout Christmas is just like
Mariana said, like it's a timefor you to like be spending with
your family or you know it'sit's this like safe cozy memory
that a lot of us have andinserting even just like a
(25:33):
stranger or something that'sdangerous or something to
subvert that safety that warmthis is really what is what is
scary about some of these films.
And I think it's something thatBlack Christmas really does
really well.
You know it's the you're in asorority house you're with your
girlfriends you're like drinkingeggnog or hot cocoa and all of a
(25:53):
sudden you get They're partyingthey are partying partying and
you know it's it's this sororityright like sisterhood and then
suddenly you have this call youdon't know who this person is
it's some man and now he'scalling you all these names
threatening you and it breaks itlike shatters that Christmas
(26:16):
like jollliness of thatChristmas joy you know what I
mean and and it's like you'reraising your hand to do yes
because I just realized thatthis guy's like Santa Claus.
SPEAKER_03 (26:28):
He's just he's a stranger who comes into your
house sees you when you'resleeping when you're awake so
that's kind of funny becauseyou're so right about strangers
coming to your house Santa'slike come on in brother but not
Billy.
Do not come in Billy thank you.
Brett (26:46):
Well let's let's back up a little bit for anybody that
might be confused about BlackChristmas because we really did
just dive right in.
I think most people yeah I thinkmost people kind of are familiar
with it but it's a 1974 Canadianslasher film and it was four
years before Halloween and thisis really funny because the
director is Bob Clark okay andBob Clark directed Porkies and
(27:11):
he directed a Christmas storythat one movie that plays over
and over and over again atChristmas with the little guy in
the pink pajamas and the Legoand all that.
So this is a body from hell yesno and I mean it's it's really
wild that he really started hiscareer making horror films and
this was at a time when heimmigrated from Florida to
(27:32):
Canada.
He fell in love with Canada sohe wanted to make a movie there
and Black Christmas was it okayand they they didn't have
slashers we didn't have thesetropes he basically invented
them way before Halloween andBob Clark really made fun of
John Carpenter and said you knowHalloween feels like a sequel to
Black Christmas because he'sbasically taking what I've set
up and doing it.
(27:53):
So it's really reallyinteresting.
It was originally going to becalled the babysitter they
actually the screenwriter wantedto call it that but Bob Clark
was like I don't want them to beyoung.
I want them to be college age sothat's how they changed to the
sorority and then they revisedthe script and then we're gonna
call it Stop Me but they thoughtthat that was kind of not a
(28:13):
great title either so so thereyou go.
I mean and then like like yousaid Mariana he based it on this
whole urban legend of thebabysitter and the man upstairs
and there was a series ofmurders that took place in the
Westmont neighborhood ofMontreal Quebec where people got
scary phone calls and it wasright around Christmas time.
So they kind of blended thosetwo things together.
(28:35):
So it was really interesting andactually it was Bob Clark that
had the idea to never show youthe killer the the script writer
Roy Moore actually wanted thatto be kind of revealed.
But Bob Clark kind of pulled itback and said no we're not gonna
show it and they really had tofight with the studio executives
because they wanted them to tosolve the mystery and show the
(28:56):
killer and all this other stuff.
But he he was like no I want itto be ambiguous so but it's an
interesting movie.
SPEAKER_03 (29:04):
That is the best choice one of the best choices
he made throughout the moviethat's one of my favorite parts
is that you never know who thekiller is it keeps it like this
insidious mystery of likesomebody could be living in your
attic and making all these phonecalls and someone you know like
(29:24):
there's all these guys that thegirls are dating and seeing and
you're like it could be theseguys like is it Pita or is it
some other guy?
Brett (29:36):
Well the cast was wild he got a lot of good people for it
he got Olivia Hussey who wasjust off of Romeo and Juliet he
got Kira Dulley who was just offof 2001 he played her boyfriend
Margot Kidder who was Canadianand this was before she had just
done Brian De Palma's sistersbut she hadn't done Superman
(29:59):
obviously so she wasn't reallywell known yet.
And we had John Saxon and he wasin like Spaghetti Westerns Bruce
Lee movies and of courseNightmare in Elm Street who
could forget and then you hadAndrea Martin from SCTV like
comedian Andrea Martin and sheactually replaced Gilda Radner
(30:20):
who got cast in Saturday NightLive and she had to leave the
project so that was wild to methat he got all these people but
they all just kind of wanted theexposure and Olivia Hussey she
was she relied on psychics foradvice and a psychic told her
that she would go to Canada makea movie and it would make a lot
(30:40):
of money and that was the onlyreason she accepted Black
Christmas.
Yeah and she did and it did yeahand then but this same psychic
told her that she was going tomarry Paul McCartney and Margot
Kidder used to tease hermercilessly about how that's not
coming true.
Oh my god you can't you can'talways be right I guess she's
gonna be wrong about some ofthem I know but it was really
(31:05):
interesting that they kind ofBob really made a lot of the
shifts to the script settingdoing it younger adults it was
shot in Toronto in 1974 probablycost about six hundred eighty
six thousand dollars which isprobably like just over a
million now some of the famouspeople that almost got cast
Elvira because Sandra Petersonwas almost Jess and Betty Davis
(31:28):
was going to be the house mothercan you imagine Betty Davis as
the house mother oh my god thatwould have been amazing yeah
yeah but didn't happen obviouslyand they filmed it all at the
University of Toronto but thesorority house that you see is
not really a sorority house it'sactually a real house can you
imagine living in that thing?
SPEAKER_06 (31:47):
No I read that it was like a 20 room house which
is that's insane like that's waytoo many rooms what are you
gonna do with all those roomsbut so many rooms actually I I
tell Brian sometimes because helikes big houses and I'm like
what are you gonna do with thatyou got to clean it all he's
like no you have maze for thatand I was like okay but like
what are you gonna do about the18 other rooms that you're not
(32:09):
using like this is and the dudethat's living up in the attic.
SPEAKER_03 (32:12):
Yeah it's so big you don't even know in one of your
20 rooms it wouldn't even be theattic they could just be hanging
out in one of your 20 roomsdon't do it Juan don't do it.
SPEAKER_06 (32:22):
No I don't I don't think so yeah we talked about
this frogging idea I don't knowif you know what that means
frogging but it's basically thisidea of like some stranger
living inside of your house andlike eating your food when
you're not there like basicallyutilizing your space when you
are not living inside of yourhouse.
SPEAKER_03 (32:42):
Yeah it's not even an idea it's like a thing like
people frog like they and peoplelike will set up cameras because
they're like oh my god like whydo I have a little bit less milk
than I did the night before andthen they'll figure out someone
has been living in their housewithout them knowing.
Brett (32:57):
So scary that is like the worst.
Yeah that's like somebody in mycar.
I mean I just know I just alwaystake the backseat.
SPEAKER_06 (33:05):
Yeah and again it's this idea of like someone
invading your space where you'resupposed to be feeling safe you
know like warm, cozy, whateverand it's just no thank you.
I'm good.
Brett (33:14):
Yeah.
Well what was interesting isthey remade this movie twice in
the 2000s once in 2006 once in2019.
And Bob Clark was involved withthe remake of 2006.
He was an executive producer andit was the last movie that he
ever worked on.
So it's kind of poetic that thisone that made him really famous
(33:35):
he finished remaking it rightbefore he passed away but I just
don't think that the remakes doit justice.
SPEAKER_03 (33:42):
I mean I think the original is the way to go I
don't know if you guys watchedthe remakes did you we have not
we considered watching I thinkthe 2019 remake for Scary Movie
Night but didn't didn't win.
SPEAKER_06 (33:55):
It didn't win that was my suggestion I was like I
want to watch the newestiteration and yeah we watched
the Lodge instead which is wasstill an excellent film but not
quite as Christmassy.
SPEAKER_03 (34:06):
Yeah we did have the conversation of like was the law
it did happen around Christmasbut it wasn't as Christmassy as
Black Christmas even though likefor neither movie like Christmas
was not like a central part ofthe plot necessarily it was like
kind of a side little side thingbut this one just felt very
(34:27):
Christmassy.
I think also like just the theset like the set itself really
like lent itself and then alsothe Christmas carolers which was
beautiful of that scene.
Brett (34:38):
Oh all those lights and all those carolers and stuff and
I got the impression I mean thesetup is basically girls in a
sorority house and I got theimpression that Christmas was
coming.
They were all getting ready toleave and that's kind of why
when somebody disappears youjust think oh well they just
went home or something likethat.
Although I kept screaming atthem going there's suitcases
(35:00):
right there.
SPEAKER_03 (35:00):
I mean come on even the cop didn't say anything
about the suitcase literally Imean I was like there's two
suitcases people but I don'tknow like I was I was telling
Joanne it's like they're incollege where like honestly like
being in college is crazy.
Like the rules go out the windowand like people don't lock their
doors anymore.
Like there's that one part wherethey're like I think this is the
(35:22):
only locked door in the wholehouse and they like go around
trying to lock all the doorslittle do they know the killer
is already inside the house butyeah it was just like really
really funny like that I I thinkthat college students I think
that felt very real.
It's like they would be like ohI don't know maybe she just
threw herself in a bag and likeleft her suitcases for whatever
(35:42):
reason like I I I didn't taketoo much issue with that because
I was in college and doors werenot locked very often.
Brett (35:51):
So you just think you're gonna live forever when you're
in college and you don't reallyworry about safety.
I don't know it's it's one ofthose things.
But I really liked it becauseunlike American slashers that
kind of came later we always hadhigh schoolers and I kind of
like the idea of college womenand then they could address a
few more things like we weretalking about there is an entire
(36:11):
plot line about abortion that isin the movie and it was the same
year as Roe v.
Wade is that right yeah yeah andthere's a lot of like feminist
angles in the movie a lot ofrelationship toxic stuff the
struggle with mother anddaughter just all of these
different things about womenthat surprisingly pop up in this
(36:34):
movie and it surprisingly haslike some people that call it a
feminist movie although I wouldargue any movie that has
sorority girls getting pickedoff one by one is probably not a
feminist movie.
SPEAKER_03 (36:44):
Yeah but I am glad that they put all of that in
there and you know spoiler alertOlivia Hussey is one that is
considering having an abortionbecause of her her boyfriend and
it creates a great tension inthe film you kind of wonder oh
is he really angry about thisenough to kill people I think
(37:04):
it's also interesting likewhenever I was watching the
movie like femicide is like areally big thing in like a lot
of Latin American countriesespecially and so like the idea
like the whole time I waswatching I was like oh it's
Peter like Peter's pissed thatshe wants to have an abortion
and he's gonna kill her becauseit's something that's
unfortunately really common.
I also think like women's likesexuality is something that was
(37:28):
kind of like important in themovie because you have like the
dad who's worried about hisdaughter Claire coming into her
room and she's got like allthese naughty posters of people
who are naked and stuff likethat, which is completely
normal.
But obviously like he's you knowstarting to see his daughter in
this different lens and I alsothought that was really
(37:48):
interesting because he hisdaughter's missing and like why
are you so concerned with what'sgoing on like in her house like
where where is your kid andshe's like literally upstairs
but anyway and and also we wetalked about how it's
interesting usually in theseslashers the the trope tends to
be like oh the virgin is the onewho survives but in this film
(38:10):
like you have the virgin who isClaire and she is the first one
murdered she a virgin I think sobecause they well I think it's
important.
Yes they teach her yes Margotyes being inexperienced and then
we have like our final girl Jesswho is literally pregnant out of
wenlock so I thought that waskind of interesting.
Brett (38:32):
So like the one girl we know is not a virgin is the
final girl in this film whichwas really interesting yeah well
I would argue that most of thegirls in the film are not and
they're very they make it verypainfully aware.
SPEAKER_11 (38:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (38:47):
And I I actually I totally forgot about Margot
Kitter's character Barb teasingClaire about being a virgin but
I don't know I mean is herboyfriend they just seemed like
you know and then she put allthese naked pictures around yeah
I mean maybe that's the imagethat she wanted to like curate
for herself you know what I meanbecause like her dad is so like
(39:08):
overprotective of and defensiveof her she didn't want anything
like that getting out but it wasreally interesting.
I mean we talked about this likesubversion of and I'm and I let
me preface this by saying noteverything has to mean something
okay but I was like oh this isvery interesting how it's like
(39:29):
the idea of like the virginbirth of like the baby Jesus
being celebrated in Christmasand then also like the
antithesis of that being Jesswanting to get an abortion right
around Christmas time.
Where it's it's like instead ofa white Christmas it's black
Christmas and so you have sortof like death in all of its
(39:51):
forms in a way.
Brett (39:53):
Well you know they struggled with that title.
Yeah they did they didn't wantto call it that and when they
released in the US originallyit's Called Silent Night, Evil
Night, because they feared thatBlack Christmas would make
people think that it was a blackexploitation film.
Understandable.
SPEAKER_06 (40:09):
It would mean something totally different.
Understandable.
They also had another name whenthey were releasing it for TV.
Yes.
SPEAKER_03 (40:17):
Stranger and The Stranger in the House, yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (40:19):
Yeah.
And I was like, Mark, theyshould have just stuck to one
name.
I mean, you'd think that itwould get confusing after a
while.
Like, which movie is this again?
Oh, it's the one movie, but it'sgot three names.
Brett (40:30):
Yeah, no, yeah, definitely.
But you know, I think that thatwas a big thing in the 70s.
I think that they thought aboutmarkets and renaming things so
that it would translate to eachmarket.
And I don't know.
So they were very and I thinkthey were scared of that title,
Black Christmas, because the2006 remake faced a lot of
backlash because the moms forAmerica or whatever were
(40:54):
convinced that they were goingto put you know violence around
the holidays, which I mean theydid, but they didn't want that
essentially.
I know.
But what was funny is the 2006version, Andrea Martin actually
comes back.
She plays the house mother in2006.
And the 2006 version kind offleshes out the killer a little
(41:17):
bit and gives them a motivationand then all of that, which I
yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (41:22):
But the 2019 didn't have a motivation.
Like, I like that we don't knowanything about him.
Like so scary.
SPEAKER_06 (41:30):
All you know about him is that he has an eye.
He has at least one eye.
Brett (41:35):
Oh, and I mean, my gosh, uh you never see the killer, but
you hear him, and those callsare the wildest thing I've
heard.
I mean, it's like the exorcistalmost.
I mean, it's just like I cannotimagine that some human actually
acted these things out.
And they say that he largelyimproved a lot of the calls, and
they were just they were crazy.
(41:56):
I mean, I was just like, wow.
SPEAKER_06 (41:58):
They were really horrible.
I honestly loved that aspect ofthe film as well.
I mean, it added to the mystery,but the mystery isn't that he
wants to hurt them.
You know, that's the only thingabout the killer that's not
mysterious.
He's very like violent andaggressive, possibly mentally
deranged because of like thedifferent voices and you know
(42:20):
what he's saying to them andwhat he's actually doing.
And like the the fact that theviolence is what's sure about
the killer, I think makes himeven more it's almost like
personifying evil, like youknow, like an anti-Santa Claus,
right?
Brett (42:37):
But there you go.
That's the whole idea.
That was the invention of thetrope.
The idea that you're beingstalked by pure evil with no
intention other than somethingthat is gonna take you out, like
Michael Myers, Jason Borges,Freddie Krueger, they're not
picking you because of someweird thing that you did or, you
know, anything like that.
They're just picking you becauseyou happen to be in the way like
(42:59):
a great white shark, and theyjust want to take everybody out
down.
And that's what's kind ofinteresting about what Bob Clark
set up with Black Christmas, isthat he did all of that before
anybody was really doing that.
Now, what's funny though is the2019 remake actually completely
changes the plot.
It's the killers, it's not evenclose.
And it has to do with likewitchcraft and supernatural
(43:23):
stuff, and they made it PG 13because they wanted kids to go
see it.
SPEAKER_03 (43:28):
Okay.
Intrigued, but that feels likeit's a different movie.
Like you need to know it's not adifferent name.
Brett (43:35):
Yeah, you should have just called it something else,
but yeah, yeah, yeah.
But that's okay.
But it was really funny.
Olivia Hussey met Steve Martinat a casting later in her
career.
And he said, you know, you werein one of my favorite films.
And she was like, What?
You like Romeo and Juliet?
And he was like, No, I likeBlack Christmas.
I've seen it like 27 times.
(43:56):
She was just like, Oh my gosh.
Honestly, that would be me.
SPEAKER_06 (44:00):
That would be me.
I was like, girl, you slayed inBlack Christmas, okay?
SPEAKER_03 (44:06):
Literally, no, it was so good, and her hair looked
so good like the whole time.
And then I re like I was tellingJoanne, like Romeo and Juliet
was the movie that our teacherplayed us in high school when we
were reading Romeo and Juliet.
So I like didn't realize ituntil I was doing the research
for the podcast, and I was like,oh my god, like she was Juliet.
(44:27):
Like, and she like that movie islike it's really good.
Although we were talking aboutthe fact that she was like 14
when she was shooting it and shewas doing nude scenes, which is
like not good.
Yeah, crazy.
But I didn't realize it was her,but she she was great.
I thought she was she was myfavorite character in the movie.
Brett (44:48):
The cast for this is really on fire, and they're
really good.
And I think Bob Clark had saidsomething that you know you can
have a pretty good script aslong as you have a really great
cast, you can make somethingreally good.
But if the script doesn't liveup to it, no, we were saying
that if it you have a goodscript and a mediocre cast, they
can bring it down.
They can make it worse.
(45:08):
And I think these people reallyupped a lot of their stuff.
And then the funny thing, thethe house mother character, he
based her on his aunt who usedto hide bottles of booze all
over the house.
Very successfully.
Yes, she did, but you know, mybig question was all of these
girls are like drunk already.
So why was she having to hideanything?
SPEAKER_03 (45:30):
That's what I said.
I was like, they're they can goget alcohol on their own.
It's Canada.
Is the drinking age in Canadaalso 21 or is it 18?
Brett (45:38):
I don't think even in the US, I think it was only 18 at
this point.
SPEAKER_03 (45:41):
Okay, so why all the cloak and dagger about the
alcohol crazy?
SPEAKER_06 (45:48):
I guess so.
I guess she didn't want tothink.
Yeah, I told Mariana, I waslike, this lady took straight up
shots from the bottle, okay?
You could smell it on herbreath.
You already know those girlsknew she was drunk.
AF.
Brett (46:02):
Like Well isn't funny because it reminded me of
American, like the facts oflife, only just really, really
alcoholic.
I was like, oh my god, Mrs.
Garrett's a drunk.
SPEAKER_06 (46:14):
Yeah, she was uh she was one of Mars' favorite
characters in the whole in thewhole movie.
Brett (46:20):
She really does get a good part.
I mean, come on.
You know, anytime that she getsto be drunk and and run around
looking for a cat in a horrormovie.
Well, and you always know that'sgonna be in badly.
SPEAKER_06 (46:31):
Well, and you know, it's it's really good because
she offered so much comedicrelief in this way and like a
touch of realness, you know,like like grounding it just a
little bit more.
And that's one of the reasons Ilove this movie.
The pacing is so good.
He really reaches that balanceof like lightheartedness at some
points, you know, with like thedrunk house mother and the dad
(46:52):
being such like such a like hasa stick up his butt and and the
cop being so inner inept and theother detective giggling, and
but then you also have likereally horrific scenes.
And I feel like when a horrormovie makes you laugh and gives
you the shivers, like that'sreally when it hits for me.
(47:13):
Like it's just such a greatbalance that they hit with this
particular movie.
SPEAKER_03 (47:18):
Yeah, there was like depth to it, like it wasn't just
horror, but there was like youknow, all these real life, very
like kind of heavy things goingon.
Like Barb is clearly drunk, shedoes not have a good
relationship with her mom, andJess is pregnant with this guy
who frankly sucks, and he breaksa piano at the music school,
(47:41):
which is not okay.
So it it made it feel very likegrounded, but then it was a
little bit funny and it wasscary, and then it was
Christmas, so it was great.
Brett (47:51):
Well, neither of you had seen it before, right?
Do you think that this would besomething that you could put on
at Christmas time every yearwith like a glass of like really
strong eggnog or somethingalcoholic?
SPEAKER_03 (48:03):
Yeah.
Brett (48:03):
And watch.
SPEAKER_03 (48:04):
I think we gotta make a drinking game out of this
movie.
And go.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (48:09):
Every time they show Claire in the in the attic,
which every time someone doesn'tnotice this dead girl in the
attic window, literally.
I told her I was like, does hemove her in the daytime or
something?
Because man, she is so obviouslyup there.
SPEAKER_03 (48:25):
She's up there.
SPEAKER_06 (48:27):
Just staring out with a bag.
I'm like, girl, please.
Brett (48:30):
I know, but actually what's really funny, the the
actress that played Claire was aswimmer and they hired her
basically because she could holdher breath with that plastic bag
over her face.
SPEAKER_03 (48:40):
Which is so scary because okay, like even if you
like stop holding your breathbecause you're between takes,
you can't keep that bag on yourhead because then you're just
gonna be inhaling a bunch ofcarbon dioxide.
I would be so paranoid if I wereshooting that.
I'd be like, take it off, takeit off right now and breathe.
Brett (48:57):
Oh no, this is the 70s, they didn't care.
SPEAKER_03 (48:59):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (48:59):
That's what I'm saying.
That's what I'm saying.
You're so right.
We talk about one of theseclassic, you know, 70s movies or
before, maybe even the 80s, it'slike some horrible stuff they
made people do.
SPEAKER_03 (49:10):
Like Yeah, people are entitled to financial
compensation.
SPEAKER_06 (49:13):
Oh my god.
I mean, like when you thinkabout like Linda Blair, for
example, what happened to her?
Oh Lord.
The actress who played hermother, the cast from Texas
Chainsaw Massacre, you know.
Oh my god.
All of these people were likeinjured while shooting, and it
was like no one really caredbecause it's it was the seven,
like it was a lawless placefilmmaking, you know, at this
(49:34):
point.
And I'm glad now that actorshave rights and you know, like
there are certain ways that youcan't.
SPEAKER_03 (49:40):
Intimacy coordinators and intimacy
coordinators, exactly.
SPEAKER_06 (49:44):
You know, like it's good that the industry has
evolved to protect people.
And but man, like listening tosome of the stories from back
then was like, hey, just putthis plastic bag over your head,
you'll be fine.
You're a swimmer, right?
Just hold your breath.
Brett (49:59):
You'll be fine.
Fine.
No problem.
Well, you know, in in the 70s,and I think particularly in this
time period, horror movies werereally made on the cheap.
And studios would not throwmoney at them because they were
convinced that they wouldn'tmake a lot of money.
And this actually made a lot ofmoney when it was released, and
it's it still to this day kindof has a cult following.
(50:20):
I don't think everybody knows itas well as like Halloween or
Friday the 13th or somethinglike that, because I think it
was one of those under theradar, but the can't the
Canadian film industry likerecognizes it as one of their
biggest hits.
SPEAKER_03 (50:32):
I loved it, and I'm gonna start telling everyone
about it because I'd never heardof it until Joanne told me about
it.
And yeah, I because we want todo a Christmas movie to be
released on Christmas, because Ithink Christmas is a Thursday
this year.
So so yeah, I hadn't even heardof this.
SPEAKER_06 (50:48):
Um, let me tell you to go back to your question
about do you think I could sitthere and watch this movie with
a really strong alcoholiceggnog?
The answer is a resolute yes.
In between Hallmark movies,we're gonna put on Black
Christmas, okay?
And we're gonna have a littlebit of horror injected into that
(51:10):
day.
I absolutely love this movie.
I mean, I I heard about thismovie a very long time ago.
I don't know, Brett, if youremember.
There was a channel called E.
Yes, of course.
Yeah.
And they had they released this101 scariest movie moments.
And it was like it was like a, Idon't know, three or four hour
(51:34):
series of these like horrormovie actors, comedians,
directors, and they broke downlike scenes from uh like
essentially a bunch of scarymovies, and it was like the 101
scary.
This movie was like uh close toclose to the top, and I was
like, Black Christmas, what isthat?
And I was so intrigued becauseagain, it's the idea of like
(51:57):
this warm, cozy holiday thatyou're supposed to spend with
your family, just likecompletely upended ever since
then.
I mean, it's been so long,Brett, since I saw that.
I mean, I was probably half myage, to be honest, since I
watched that, and like nowcoming now to finally having
watched it, reviewing it withMarr and reviewing it with you
here on this podcast, like feelslike such a great moment for me
(52:20):
of like, man, I love horror andI have always loved horror, you
know, and it's five out of five.
Brett (52:27):
Yeah, no, it's a fun.
I I it is one of my favoritesjust because it pioneered a lot
of things.
And it was way before a lot ofthe slashers had set up their
tropes.
And I think it was just so neatto watch something that was that
early and knew what it was goingto be what the next 15 years of
movies were gonna be.
SPEAKER_11 (52:48):
Yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06 (52:50):
Oh my god.
Yeah, I I I did make that pointduring the podcast too.
It was like, man, like this cameout by the way, the same year as
the Texas Chainsaw Massacre,which is one of my top three
horror movies of all time.
This this movie informedHalloween, like you said it
Friday the 13th.
Like you you you were talkingabout earlier at Nightmare on
Elm Street.
And I it even informed Scream alittle bit, you know, with like
(53:12):
the phone calls and like the whois this?
Like there's a stranger in myhouse.
And they're coming from outside.
From literally right over there,yeah.
So I no, I I really love thismovie and and it gave me a new
appreciation for slashers that Idon't think I had before
watching this movie because likelike getting to see the origins
of the slasher essentially, likethose slasher tropes, and and
(53:35):
and and and having it executedso beautifully, you know.
I'm like, yes, I can see like ithelps me deconstruct other
movies a little bit more, andand I just absolutely love that.
Brett (53:46):
Yeah.
But Mariana, what do you think?
In conclusion.
SPEAKER_03 (53:51):
In conclusion, everyone should go watch this.
I love when a horror moviestands up as like more than just
a horror movie.
Like I think Sinners was soamazing, and it like it goes
beyond be like, yes, it's amovie about vampires, but
there's just so much more to it.
And it's it's just like I don'tknow, the plot is just so solid
(54:15):
and like the storyline is reallygood and like the acting is
great.
And I I thought this movie wasjust like very like holistically
solid and it stands on its own,like just as like a great film,
and also happens to be a greathorror film that happens to be
around Christmas time.
So I really, really enjoyed itso much.
It's like it's a thriller, andit's you know, it's about what I
(54:38):
think this movie, I could bewrong, but I think it passes the
Beck Delta.
Brett (54:41):
Oh, I'm sure it does.
It's all women.
SPEAKER_03 (54:43):
Yeah, it's all women.
So but they have to be nottalking about men.
So I think that I'm I'm gonna gore-watch it the first 15
minutes, but I just really likedit.
Brett (54:54):
I think there are some sequences where they don't talk
about men.
I I definitely I mean, of coursethey talk about sex lives of
turtles, but there you go.
SPEAKER_11 (55:03):
Yes.
Brett (55:04):
So okay, so Johanna Mariana, you can find them at
Scary Movie Nights.
Is it scary movie nights or justnight?
SPEAKER_06 (55:10):
Scary movie nights.
Nights with an S.
Brett (55:12):
With an S.
So plural.
So many, many scary movies andscary movie nights.
Okay, so a podcast, obviously,where the scares are real, but
the friendships are realer.
You can find them on YouTube,all major podcasting sites.
Facebook, I think I can findyou.
The Gram, Instagram, the Gram.
The Grams, TikTok, TikTok, allmajor social media things.
(55:37):
And I think it's so cool thatyou guys get together and talk
about scary movies.
And it's such a nice combinationof like the two least likely.
Because usually when you gethorror movie podcasts, you get
these kind of like basementtroll people that listen to
heavy metal or something, andyou just get this weird vibe of
like, you know, oh yeah, likepending doom, or yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (55:59):
Or just regular folk.
SPEAKER_06 (56:00):
We're just exactly and extremely bubbly, actually.
Now that you now that youmention it, we're just like, oh
my god, scary movies.
SPEAKER_11 (56:06):
Oh but it it brings like a Christmas vibe.
Brett (56:12):
So there you are.
Full circle.
SPEAKER_11 (56:18):
Oh man.
Brett (56:21):
Thank you for listening to Queer Voices.
We have been a show on KPFT 90.1Houston for over five decades
now.
And if you're in the holidayspirit, please consider donating
at KPFT.org so we can keepgoing.
I am Brett Cullum, a producer ofthe show.
Brian Lavinka is our legacyproducer, along with Deborah
(56:42):
Moncrief Bell.
Contributors include DavisMendoza DeRuzman, Joel Tatum,
and Jacob Newsome.
Special correspondent and myhusband is R.
Lee Ingalls.
Happy holidays and cheers to2026.
I mean, it's gotta be better,right?
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My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.