This week's show combines the worlds of politics, history, and the arts. First up, we talk with Brad Pritchett, who is being honored this year at the OUT FOR GOOD gala on October 4th. This year, the event will be at the Marriott Marquis in downtown Houston. Brad talks about his career and how he got started in politics, and how he keeps the faith when things are not going well.
In the second segment, we bring in author R. Lee Ingalls to discuss Clarence Arthur Tripp's book THE INTIMATE WORLD OF ABRAHAM LINCOLN, as well as the documentary LINCOLN LOVER OF MEN.
Finally, we talk with Michelle Britton and Adrienne Shearer about their production of DANCING LESSONS at the MATCH, which runs through September 21st. It's a show about a man on the spectrum and how he navigates the world.
Important Links:
OUT FOR GOOD INFORMATION - https://montrosecenter.org/event/out-for-good-2025/
LINCOLN LOVER OF MEN - https://www.loverofmen.com/
THE INTIMATE WORLD OF ABRAHAM LINCOLN - https://www.amazon.com/Intimate-World-Abraham-Lincoln/dp/0743266390
Tickets for DANCING LESSONS - https://matchouston.org/events/2025/dancing-lessons
Queer Voices airs in Houston Texas on 90.1FM KPFT and is heard as a podcast here. Queer Voices hopes to entertain as well as illuminate LGBTQ issues in Houston and beyond. Check out our socials at:
https://www.facebook.com/QueerVoicesKPFT/ and
https://www.instagram.com/queervoices90.1kpft/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is KPFT 90.1 FM Houston, 89.5 FM Galveston, 91.9
FM Huntsville, and worldwide onthe internet at kpftorg.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
You are listening to Queer Voices, which is a radio
show on KPFT Houston 90.1 FM anda podcast online that has been
part of Houston's LGBTQIA pluscommunity for over five decades.
We're going to talk politics,issues, culture and the arts all
from an all inclusive, yetqueer perspective.
Hi, I'm Brett Cullum and I amyour tour guide for this evening
(00:47):
, wednesday.
And the arts all from anall-inclusive, yet queer
perspective.
Hi, I'm Brett Cullum and I amyour tour guide for this evening
, wednesday, september 17th.
On tonight's episode, I speakwith the interim CEO of Equality
Texas, brad Pritchett.
Brad is being honored at theMontrose Center's Out for Good
Dinner and Fundraiser on October4th at the Marriott Marquis.
Brad is a celebrated activistand we talk about what is
(01:09):
happening today in a landscapethat is not quite friendly to
our community.
After that segment, I bring inmy husband, r Lee Ingalls, to
talk about the groundbreaking2005 book about Abraham Lincoln
by Clarence Arthur Tripp, aswell as the 2024 documentary
Lincoln, lover of Men.
Finally, I get to talk withMichelle Britton and Adrian
Shearer of Lion WomanProductions.
They are putting on a playcalled Dancing Lessons, which
(01:32):
runs at the match throughSeptember 21st, so you only have
a week left to catch it.
It's a love story about a manwith Asperger's syndrome, sort
of a love on the specter typething.
Hi, this is Brett Cullum andtoday I am joined by Brad
(01:53):
Pritchett.
He is a well-known politicalactivist here in Houston.
He is currently the interimchief executive officer of
Equality Texas and that positionlasts through December 2025.
But he has a long legacy ofadvocating and rallying for the
LGBTQIA plus community.
Brad served as a three-termpresident of the Houston
(02:15):
Stonewall Young Democrats, whichthey helped to identify
pro-equality candidates and getthem elected to office.
He's also worked as a policyand advocacy strategist with the
ACLU of Texas, worked oncriminal justice reform in
Dallas and the Texas legislature.
He's a fixture at our politicalcaucus meetings, always
(02:36):
strikingly tall, bespeckledmodel of a man with a confidence
, presence and a clear voice.
He's going to be honored thisyear at Out for Good.
The Montrose Center's largestfundraiser of the year will be
held this time on October 4th atthe Marriott Marquis in Houston
.
Thank you for being here, brad.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Thank you for having me, and what an introduction.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
It's always over the top, but I feel like you deserve
it.
You're being honored, obviouslyat Out for Good.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
And one of the things that I always wondered how in
the world did you first enterpolitics?
You know, I went to school forcommunications actually.
So I was working in televisionfor a chunk of time I won't say
which network, because it's nota good one, but I was working in
television and I was interestedin being involved in politics
and I didn't really know how toget involved.
So in Houston, you know you'rea queer person, you're trying to
figure out what's what there isfor you to do, and the Houston
LGBTQ political caucus has beenaround for so long and has such
(03:31):
a storied reputation that it wasone of the orgs that people
were like do you know about thisorganization?
And I started going to meetingsand I joined and then that got
me thinking about likeprogressive politics with the
Democratic Party and Democraticpolicies.
So I started to get involved insome of the Democratic clubs
and I was just one of thosepeople who showed up and would
(03:54):
always raise my hand whensomebody wanted a volunteer to
do something.
So this is what I tell peopleconstantly is I was just a
person who showed up and whensomebody said, does somebody
know how to do this, I wouldraise my hand and say I do, and
sometimes it was true andsometimes it was not true and I
would just figure it out,because I always figured if the
person asking, if anybody knewhow to do this, they probably
didn't know how to do it.
So if I could figure it out,they wouldn't know if it was
(04:16):
done the right way or the wrongway as long as it got done.
So I just kind of showed up toeverything all the time and try
to make myself useful.
And even now when I go to eventsand a lot of times I have to
speak at them I'm always likecan somebody give me a job to do
?
I'd rather like be doingsomething, doing something, give
me something logistical to workon.
So that was really kind of my.
My thought process was justshow up for everything and try
(04:37):
to figure out like where you can, where you can do your part.
And that's how I ended up atStonewall and somewhere, young
Dems.
I was just a member for a longtime and then somebody asked me
to join that board and then Iwent from just being on the
board to end up being thepresident of it and I just, you
know, anytime there wassomething that popped up that I
really cared about.
I would just try to do what Icould to engage on it and try to
draw other people in.
(04:57):
And that's when one day Iturned around and realized, wow,
I'm like an organizer, and Ididn't even know that I was an
organizer.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
It was great you know , sometimes showing up is 90% of
the battle.
I mean, I think that that'sabsolutely true.
So tell me a little bit aboutEquality Texas.
I want people out there thatdon't know anything about it.
What does it do?
Speaker 3 (05:15):
So Equality Texas we're the state's largest LGBTQ
advocacy organization.
We're almost the oldest, butthe Houston LGBTQ Political
Caucus beat us by about threeyears.
So the caucus was founded in1975.
Equality Texas, the foundationof Equality Texas, was founded
in 1978.
And it was literally a group ofLGBTQ plus people who came
(05:35):
together because they wereworried about a budget rider
being considered at the Texaslegislature that would have
defunded schools that allowedLGBTQ clubs to be created on
campus.
So they came together over thatsingle issue of the ledge.
And then the next legislativesession some groups merged
together, hired a lobbyist towork on LGBTQ rights, and that's
(05:56):
kind of where Equality Texaswas birthed out of.
So in 2006, the name changed toEquality Texas.
But we are probably best knownfor the work we do at the
legislature.
So every two years thelegislature decides it's going
to take up some bills targetingour community every year.
So we're really well known forthe work we do there.
We have a pretty good trackrecord of stopping most of the
(06:17):
worst stuff from getting throughthe legislature.
But beyond that, we're working365 days a year all across the
state of Texas.
So we have staff all over thestate.
We work to make sure folks haveskills that they may need to be
their own advocates locally.
We do leadership developmentprograms.
We do public education events.
We're launching several verylarge programs that are going to
(06:39):
be running across the statethis year in the wake of the
legislative session to make surefolks understand what bills
passed and what that means forcommunity members and how to
mitigate the harm of those bills.
So as a whole, we are apolitical and an advocacy
organization that is committedto making sure that the state is
the state it should be forLGBTQ plus folks living here.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
That's an amazing mission and I always see you
guys headed out to Austin andactually confronting them like
face to face.
It's actually like a veryengaged organization that seems
to really do a lot, just in thepresence and again showing up
90% of the battle, probably, andfighting for this stuff.
Well, how does it feel to behonored by the Montreux Center,
(07:20):
and now for good?
I love the Montreux Center,first and foremost.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
I don't like spotlights, so they had to
really really pressure me intosaying yes.
But you know I will doeverything and anything I can to
help uplift the work at theMontreux Center.
So I'm honored to be honored.
But it also is just one ofthose spaces that makes me
slightly uncomfortable to be inlike a position where you have
to like be handed an award.
Like I said, when I go toevents I'm like give me a job to
(07:44):
do.
I don't want to have to be theperson that's in the spotlight,
but it's lovely and it's givenme an opportunity to work even
closer with the folks at theMontreux Center that I get to
work with in my role at EqualityTexas, but in a different way.
So it's nice.
We're not stressing about thelegislature in our conversations
, we're talking aboutcelebration, so that's a nice
(08:04):
change of pace for me.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
It's going to be great to get the flowers, so to
speak, and to have a momentwhere you can just kind of
celebrate, because this is areally difficult time
politically, and I wanted totalk to you a little bit about
that, about our current climateand everything and what you're
seeing out there.
I mean, do you worry aboutbeing in politics right now?
I mean, we're seeing politicalviolence is on the rise, no
(08:27):
matter who you are, and Texas isa crushingly red state.
It just seems like.
Do you worry about being thisvisible and this on the cusp of
everything?
Speaker 3 (08:36):
It's interesting because, you know, my husband
and I've had this conversation alot, especially recently.
I'm no stranger to gettingnasty emails or things in the
physical mail that show up atthe office that call me all
kinds of names or make threatsagainst me, but at the end of
the day, like I view it as justkind of part of the job.
It's always kind of been thatway.
For folks organizing in LGBTQrights, there are always going
(08:58):
to be people who want to doeverything they can to
intimidate us into silence orwant to try to scare us into,
you know, going back intoclosets.
So for me I take it in stride,I mean sometimes.
Sure, I will maybe worry aboutit, maybe I lose a little bit of
sleep over it, but I'm notgoing to let it stop me from
doing the things that I know Ineed to be doing.
I think from a broaderperspective, you know we've seen
(09:19):
in Texas, especially over thelast probably five years, this
kind of increased vitriol beingspewed at our community to the
point where we were having, andstill are having, people show up
at, you know, drag bingoshosted by churches, carrying
long rifles and wearing masks,with protest signs and working
(09:42):
these anti-LGBTQ activistsworking lockstep next to white
nationalist organizations toprotest draft performances, to
try to intimidate people fromshowing up or intimidate venues
from hosting anything related toour community.
At Equality Texas, at least foraround the last five years or so
, we've been really focused onwhat security looks like for the
community.
So when we are planning publicevents, that's part of the
(10:05):
conversation is what are wedoing to make sure that the
venue is as safe as it can be?
We work with organizations likeVeterans for Equality so that
we have people at our events,kind of monitoring who's coming
and who's going, and we keeptrack of who the most visible
opposition folks are.
We actually have oppositionlookbooks that have photos of
people, basically breaks downwhere we've seen them, what
(10:27):
they've done, what their modusoperandi are, if they're just
protesters, if they'redisruptors, and we distribute
those to folks when they come tothings so that they know who to
avoid.
So for us, you know the climateright now is so much worse than
it's probably been in a verylong time, but there are still
things that we can do to makesure that we're safe and the
community safe.
So we try to.
(10:47):
We try to really just beproactive about safety for all
members of the community.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
You know, I even see it at the bar level.
I mean it's like everybody hasthis increased security.
Everybody has this feeling oflike maybe we're not as safe as
we used to be a little while ago.
So, and I feel like beingtransgender now is almost
dangerous in and of itself.
It's a lightning rod,particularly for black trans
women.
I think that we had the murdernumbers that had been going down
(11:13):
a little bit, but now I noticedthat they are on the rise again
and a lot of these deaths kindof involve guns.
And you know, we're bothcisgender gay men and I want to
be a great ally to thetransgender community.
So how can we do that from ourposition?
What can we do better tosupport that part of our
community?
Speaker 3 (11:30):
I think as cis, especially cis white men, we
have a responsibility to do whatwe can to not expect trans
people to be the people alwaysbeing visible and always
speaking up.
It's dangerous Visibility, isdangerous across the board for a
lot of folks right now.
But one of the things thatwe've seen is, you know, trans
folks in particular, when theyare visible, when they turn out
and they testify, they're theones who are getting doxxed way
(11:51):
faster than anybody else.
So, like opposition folks willtry to track down who they are,
who they work for, and it's thesame when we deal with like
protest situations.
You know, two years ago at theCapitol we were fighting an
anti-LGBTQ bill and the Speakerof the House at the time ordered
the entire Capitol building tobe cleared by DPS.
So they cleared the galleries,they cleared the entire building
(12:12):
.
We were being forced by these,you know, marching essentially
stormtroopers downstairs.
They wouldn't let elderlypeople get to elevators, like it
was.
It was the worst you couldpossibly imagine happening in
that building, and what made itthe worst was the DPS knew who
the most visible trans activistswere and those were the people
they targeted with violence andwith arrests.
(12:34):
So a very good friend of minewas helping get people out of
the building, helping people getdown the stairs, and they got
jumped by probably seven DPSofficers from behind.
They were complying with orders, they were helping people move
and they just happened to be avery visible trans activist and
probably 5'5 and height, likenot a huge, not an intimidating
(12:56):
person in any way, shape or form, getting slammed to the ground
by seven huge DPS officers andone attempting to put their you
know, their knee against theirneck and the only thing that
protected them was theirbackpack falling and blocking
their neck.
But we noticed that pattern,that they knew exactly who the
most visible trans people wereand they went after those people
and they were all transactivists and they were people
(13:17):
of color.
So in situations like that, it'salso up to us who are cis white
people to put ourselves, andsometimes our bodies, in between
the law enforcement folks whoare being told to attack people
like that and the folks that arebeing targeted.
And if nothing else, us beingthere gives people time to get
away, and if that means we getarrested or we're the ones that
take the brunt of that, we justneed to be willing to take that,
(13:39):
because too often it targetspeople who are going to be even
more in danger if they get putin jail.
So, like we know, right now inthe state of Texas, they're
passing all these.
They pass all these laws.
One of the laws they passedstrictly defines gender in
binary, unscientific terms foruse across the board.
So that includes, like, wheresomebody is going to be put when
(14:00):
they get arrested, going to beput when they get arrested.
So even if there are policiesin place that would protect
trans people, we may see thosepolicies getting questioned by
the folks who actually run lawenforcement agencies.
So, for white cis people,especially white cis men, I
think that's really importantfor us to be looking at how
these things are being targetedfor trans people and where can
we insert ourselves to provideprotection and support for the
(14:22):
folks who need to be visible andwho have to have their voices
heard.
But maybe we can just bebuffers that help protect them a
little bit more.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Well, what are you seeing as the top issues right
now and what are you working onas Equality, texas and things
like that?
What is your main objectives orthe top issues that are popping
up?
Speaker 3 (14:40):
I mean, I think right now, the number one thing that
we're always going to be workingon is making sure that the
state of Texas isn't weaponizinggovernment against the
community, particularly againsttrans people.
We keep seeing how weak andineffective our state leaders
are, and so much so that ifDonald Trump says jump, greg
Abbott is already in the air andsaying tell me when to do it
(15:02):
again, daddy, and it's there'sno leadership from the state of
Texas.
It's basically following theorders of this criminal in the
White House.
So I think part of it is whenthe Trump administration turns
around and lobs out this youknow terrible stuff about the
queer community and LGBTQ peoplein general watching and trying
to make sure that the Texasadministration isn't just
(15:23):
parroting it, which they will,and then being prepared for it.
How do we make sure that ourcommunity is ready for whatever
they're trying to do policy-wise?
I think the second part of itis you know we had seven
explicitly anti-LGBTQ plus billsget passed by the legislature
this year six in the regularsession, one in special session
and part of what we've beendoing, part of what we were
doing before those bills evergot passed or were even moving
(15:45):
through the process was figuredout how we could try to chip
away at the enforcement of thosebills, because a lot of the
enforcement is left up toprivate companies and private
individuals.
So a good example is one of thebills that was passed affected
your electronic health records.
So when you go to the doctorand you look at something called
MyChart, it shows you like, oh,your background, your history,
your medical history, and therewas a bill that was passed that
(16:07):
explicitly said that electronichealth vendors had to only put
in biological sex assigned atbirth, but it didn't
specifically say that theycouldn't include other things.
That bill we figured out whoall the vendors were that worked
in the state of Texas, forevery hospital, ambulance
service, private medicalfacility, dentist, you name it.
(16:29):
We found them and we created alist of recommendations and said
you may have to comply withthis law to the letter, but here
are the other things that thelaw doesn't say you can't do.
So do these things and that islike ensuring that people are
being called by the right name,that they're being respected in
their pronouns, that they knowthat they are going into their
doctor's office fully able to bewho they are and one of the
(16:51):
largest vendors in the state ofTexas, actually, that does most
of the hospitals in the stateand a lot of the private
practices responded to us almostimmediately and said let's meet
and figure out how we canimplement your recommendations.
And said let's meet and figureout how we can implement your
recommendations.
So even when these bills arepassing and they're bad bills,
we're already ahead of them insome ways by talking to the
people that have to implementthem and saying, fine, you may
(17:12):
have to do this stupid thing,but you can do these 12 great
things too, and these 12 greatthings don't cost you anything.
And if you're already having to, like spend money to update
your system, just do these 12great things too while you're
doing this one crappy thing.
So part of it has been usthinking about how do these
bills get implemented and wheredo we get ahead of them before
they actually get signed andimplemented in law?
And we're working on that rightnow with the most recent
(17:33):
bathroom bill talking to citiesand school districts and
political subdivisions andgiving them things the state of
Texas did not give them whenthey passed this bill and kind
of just left it open tointerpretation.
Well, we're interpreting it forthem now and giving them an
interpretation that protects ourcommunity and hopefully they'll
take it.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Hopefully.
Well, one of the things Iwanted to ask you just generally
.
I think that we all feel thislike malaise or something.
It's this time, in this era,where the sanctity of politics
feels violated.
It feels like our vote in ourown state is being obliterated
by redistricting and things likethat, and you mentioned the
seven laws that we got passedthat were anti-LGBTQIA+, and do
(18:15):
you have faith that things willget better and how can we get
there and what can you do, asjust an average person, to help
with this mission?
Speaker 3 (18:24):
I get this question a lot right now yeah, why do you
keep getting up and doing thework you do?
I mean, I would I say this toeverybody like I, I have to have
faith, otherwise I couldn't dothe work that I do.
But my faith isn't necessarilyin the state of Texas, it's in
the people, it's in thecommunity that we're all a part
of, because even when things getand historically you know
(18:45):
there's precedent for this whenthe world itself gets bad, our
community rallies together tosupport one another.
So I think that, as queerpeople, we have that.
We have that comfort at leastor we should have that comfort
in the back of our minds that nomatter how bad the world gets,
no matter how much they try totarget us, our communities
always find ways to support eachother and survive it.
So I think that's one of thethings that I really hold on to
(19:06):
is just knowing that there havebeen battles that have been
fought in the past that wereharder than the moment that
we're in, despite how hard thismoment feels, and our community
came through it and we did itbecause we were together and we
were unified and knew thatsurvival was the purpose and the
point.
So I mean, I have hope alwaysthat it's going to turn around.
I think the way it turns aroundis people have to just stay
engaged, and I'm one of thosepeople who I believe in, I
(19:29):
believe in the power of yourvote, but I also recognize how
frustrating it gets for peopleto be like don't forget that
everything relies on your vote,right, because we all do it, and
then elections don'tnecessarily go our way.
I do believe, like, voting is abig part of it, but I just
think engagement and involvementhas to be a huge part of it as
well, and that is also justgoing into these places and not
pulling punches.
(19:50):
When people are lying, we needto call them liars.
When people are, we shouldn'tsay, oh, you're spreading
misinformation.
It's like you're outright lyingand you know you're lying.
At some point it's going to getto a space where we have to
take the gloves off.
And I think about all the workthat was done around the HIV
crisis, when members of thecommunity were dying and the
government didn't care and knewit was happening and weren't
being pushed to do anything.
(20:11):
And you had organizations likeACT UP shutting down the opening
night of the San FranciscoOpera, right and you had
establishment LGBTQ orgs whowere like you can't do this, oh
my God, they're never going tohelp us.
But it was that like force.
It was going into these spacesand saying we're going to do
whatever we feel is necessary tomake sure our community is safe
and survives.
That really did make thedifference.
(20:32):
I mean, you can just on how thecountry and the pharmaceutical
industry responded to the AIDScrisis because of organizations
like ACT UP.
You can kind of like see whenthose types of disruptions
started to happen.
Those types of protests weretaking place.
I mean Peter Staley climbingonto the roof of the FDA and
dropping the banner and gettingarrested for it.
Suddenly we started to seeprogress.
(20:52):
Suddenly, medication started tobe developed.
Suddenly, it became affordablefor people.
Suddenly, the government had nochoice like where it's going to
be the same.
We're going to have to dothings in a different way.
We're going to have to be evenlouder than we have been and at
some point things will shiftback in a direction where our
community is not going to feelas attacked as we are right now.
(21:13):
But it is going to requirevigilance.
It's going to requireengagement from people.
Folks can't just go to brunchand forget it's happening and
just be like well, I'm going tolive my life, because at no
point are you safe from what'sbeing targeted towards the
community, no matter who you areAt some point.
If you're a queer person,they're going to come for you
too.
So it's better for us to beahead of it and united against
(21:34):
it than to be surprised when ithappens.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
So let me ask you this what is next for you?
The interim role, the CEO role,ends in December 2025.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
What happens to Brad Pritchett?
What's your next move?
I don't know.
I have no idea.
Maybe I'll just sit on a beachfor a little while and enjoy the
ocean.
Sounds of the ocean, put ashell to my ear?
I honestly don't know.
My goal for right now is toensure that Equality Texas, an
organization that I've workedwith for a long time I've worked
for for a while, but I'veworked with for a very long time
I care deeply about theorganization and I want to make
(22:07):
sure that, whatever comes nextfor it, it's set off on a good
path to continue doing theessential work that it does
every single day, because,having been a part of this org
for almost five years now on theinside of it, I recognize what
it means for community membersand all the work that gets done
that nobody ever hears about,but how crucial that work can be
as well.
So I don't know, one day Iguess I'll retire, but I don't
(22:30):
feel like I'm old enough forthat yet.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
So you're definitely not old enough for that.
Yet I hate to tell you you'regoing to have to be showing up a
lot longer.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
But it sounds boring.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
I don't know how people do it, so it does sound
like it could be a little bitmore low key than what you're
experiencing right now, but I'msure it's a fight and I'm sure
that you probably have earned atleast a solid couple of weeks
on the beach.
But thank you, brad Pritchett,for everything that you do.
I mean, obviously, the MontreuxCenter honoring you at Out for
Good, which is October 4th, theMarriott Marquis in Houston.
(23:04):
You can purchase tickets at theMontreux Center's website, and
I can't think of anybody moredeserving for this recognition
than you.
I mean, I know they're probablygoing to have to give you a
logistical job to get you toshow up, but I'm excited that
they're honoring you.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
Yeah, tables, give me something to do.
I'll hang decorations whateveryou need.
Don't tell Avery that becauseshe might actually take me up on
it, but I'll do whatever I needto do to help with that event.
I love the Wanderer Center, soyes it'll be a good time.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
It'll.
It's always a great time andI'm glad that we get to
celebrate you and thank you foraddressing some of the stuff.
That this is a hard time, Imean.
I think that you know it's.
I am ready for a good party andI am ready for a good
celebration of all.
That's great, because it justfeels like the weight of the
world has been heavier than everaround this time.
So out for good, Definitely onmy radar.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
So I mean, we need more queer joy right now, and
this is a good opportunity tofind some Amen.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Hey, there, it's Brett and Lee again, and we are
here to talk about some history.
This week we read a book withpart of a book club that we are
in, by a man named ClarenceArthur Tripp.
It was called the IntimateWorld of Abraham Lincoln.
Now, what's important to knowabout this book is that it was
published 20 years ago and infive.
(24:42):
Tripp was a researcher in thefield of sexuality mainly, but
he was also a history buff.
He was a Lincoln scholar and hewas mostly known for his
partnership studying sex withAlfred Kinsey, and Tripp was the
author of the runawaybestseller, the Homosexual
Matrix.
Well, what happened with thisguy is that he devoted the last
10 years of his life to anexhaustive study of Abraham
(25:02):
Lincoln's writings, and hewanted to prove that he was
basically a two on the Kinseyscale, which meant that he was
pretty much homosexual, exceptfor he did marry Mary, todd
Lincoln.
He obviously had four kids, sowe can't say he was exclusively
homosexual, but this was a bookthat Lee actually picked for our
book club, and I wanted to askyou first, why did you pick the
(25:24):
intimate world of Abraham?
Speaker 5 (25:26):
Lincoln book club and I wanted to ask you first, why
did you pick the intimate worldof Abraham Lincoln?
So I'd heard a lot of thingsabout this part of his life, but
we'd not read anything orreally researched it in any way.
So I thought, with the bookclub and this book coming into
my line of sight, I thought,okay, so this is a good one.
I like history, I like tellingof the real tale of people and
some of those details thataren't commonly known.
(25:46):
So this is something aboutLincoln that's been rumored, not
commonly known.
I wanted to get something bysomeone who did the research
that was either going to confirmit or deny it one way or the
other.
So that's kind of how I becameaware of it and why I
recommended it.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Well, I think the significance of Clarence Arthur
Tripp is that he reframed thediscussion.
I think that he reallyintroduced to scholars and
things like that this idea thatLincoln's well, basically the
love of his life was a gentlemannamed Joshua Speed, who he
spent a lot of time with earlyon in his life and even later.
I mean, they definitely stayedin contact throughout his entire
life and lived together andshared a bed for four years.
Speaker 5 (26:24):
Yeah, when he was a young man.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Well, some people argue that bed sharing was
common back then, but thatlength seems a little bit longer
than what you would expect.
I mean, what would you think oftwo guys that shared a bed for?
Speaker 5 (26:36):
four years.
Yeah Well, a couple of thingsthat make it.
They make it sound unusual, butand we weren't there so we
can't really say what was usualand not unusual for the time.
But it does seem to be a littlebit unusual for them to share
the bed for that length of timewhen other options were
available to Lincoln and thebeds back in those days were
(26:57):
small and Lincoln was kind of abig guy, which they did talk
about, and the fact that evenfor that time other people found
it unusual that they werechoosing those sleeping
arrangements Now there werebasically three people that CA
Tripp cited as basically loversof Lincoln.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
There was David Derrickson, who was the son of a
owner of a general store thatLincoln worked at early in his
life, and they shared lodgingsas well a bed.
And then, of course, joshuaSpeed is a big one.
There's Elmer Ellsworth, who Ithink is really interesting.
It was probably unrequited fromwhat I understand, but
something kind of interestingabout him that you always talk
(27:36):
about is he was the first personto die.
Speaker 5 (27:39):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so, yeah, okay, yeah, so right, he
was the first person to die inthe Civil War, or they credited
him with that, but yeah, soLincoln was very infatuated with
him.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Yeah, he was devastated when Elmer was killed
, basically.
And then, of course, trippcites a lot of things.
Abraham Lincoln was a fan of agood, dirty joke.
Who knew that he did off-colorhumor?
Speaker 5 (28:04):
Yes, he certainly did .
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Yeah, and he was emotionally distant from a lot
of the women in his life, um,and of course we know those
women as ann rutledge, maryowens and of course, his wife
and firstly lady mary toddlincoln, so there was a lot of
interesting stuff about thosepeople as well.
Speaker 5 (28:19):
it was kind of a reoccurring theme in the letters
and articles and written abouthim during that day.
So this is not speculation.
This is something that comesdirectly out of people that were
writing about him during thattime frame that he just did not
seem to be that engaged withwomen that were around him.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Yeah, which historically might not be that
out of the ordinary, just simplybecause I think that men
generally socialized with men inthat time and women generally
socialized with women.
It was very not a lot ofcrossing there.
You didn't have a lot offriends that were of the
opposite gender and things likethat.
Speaker 5 (28:53):
So the thing that's kind of difficult to extract
from everything that we read wasyou know what was common for
that day, you know what wasconsidered normal, or you know I
always talk about.
You cannot fault people forliving in the time that they
lived in.
So what was, what did his timelook like, and how how much of
(29:14):
this is actually relevant forthat time period or not?
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Well, and one of the things that we did watch to help
us with that particular issuewas we watched a new or newish
documentary.
It's called Abraham LincolnLincoln, lover of men.
It was released in 2024.
And it really kind of takes theClarence Arthur trip argument
and puts it into a little bit ofyou know talking head style
documentary talking about thatand they they kind of act out
(29:38):
some of it with the Joshua speedand the Lincoln thing and make
it a little bit more provocative, true, true, and they try to
answer the question.
Speaker 5 (29:45):
So in this book, a little bit more about the book
itself.
So he worked on this book for10 years.
He finished the draft of thisbook, which my understanding is
this is the draft.
He never did do his final editsto it and when you read the
book, or if you read the book,you will find it's a little bit
difficult to read from that.
For that reason it doesn't seemto have a clear overall arc
(30:06):
from the start to the end and henever really gets to where he's
saying this is what thismessage means and how it should
be translated.
So that's kind of missing andthe show that we watch kind of
does take that then and says sothis is what he said and what he
saw, but this is what it reallymeans and adds an opinion to it
(30:28):
that you don't really get fromthe book itself.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
I think he was really trying to be academic and I
think that that was one of theproblems that our book club had.
Speaker 5 (30:38):
It's a dry read.
Dry read, yes, and because itwas never finished, it doesn't
have that finished quality.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
Well, obviously he passed away.
Tripp died in 2003 due tocomplications of AIDS and this
was basically published in arough draft form.
They did not edit or doanything else like that and they
put a couple of things in thereto kind of support.
They had a very longintroduction by Gene Baker 80
something pages.
That kind of talks about howthis work integrates into the
(31:05):
study of Lincoln and the Lincolnscholars and things like that
in this whole debate aboutLincoln sexuality.
And then you get into the meatof the book, which is divided
into several chapters and itgoes through different people
and figures and things like that.
And then there is a dissent by agentleman named Michael
Burlingame, who kind of refuteswhat Tripp says and kind of
(31:26):
shoots some holes in hisargument that Lincoln was
actually a Kinsey 2 on the scale.
And then there's also a purelypsychological perspective
written by Alice Flinnessy.
So she definitely she supportsthe idea that he was bisexual,
but she may not be as adamantabout what as CA Tripp was.
So it's an interestingdiscussion and I think that one
(31:48):
thing that you and I always talkabout is history and is
homosexual history suppressed,and that's one of the things
that I think that this book kindof brings up is that all of
these things are in front of us.
We have these letters, we havethese facts about Joshua Speed
and the relationship thatLincoln had, the fact that he
was a virgin until he marriedMary Todd Lincoln which was, by
(32:08):
the way, he was 33 years old Notvery typical of a guy Should
retain that for a while, buthistorians really didn't like
this idea.
Speaker 5 (32:16):
No, and I think that that's one of the convenient
truths of those days, and evenas recent as my grandfather's
generation.
But these are subjects that arenot talked about in polite
society, if you will.
So they might know them orsuspect them, but they don't
talk about it, and when a persondies, then it's really easy to
forget those details and letthem slip under the carpet
without anybody thinking aboutthem again, and that might be
(32:39):
what we're seeing here as well.
It's a part of his life thatpeople that knew him while he
was alive knew it, didn't reallytalk about it except in
whispers, and then when hepassed away, it just all that
stopped.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
Kind of like whitewashing, but I would call
it straightwashing.
Yes, yeah, they have made it alittle bit straighter than it
was.
Speaker 5 (32:58):
Yeah, and so that kind of gets to the question.
Maybe I'm jumping too far ahead, you know.
So arguably most people wouldagree that Lincoln was one of
the best, if not the best,presidents of our nation.
So how does this change thatconversation that this is?
Speaker 2 (33:19):
in fact true.
How does that change theconversation?
I always think, you know, wehang our hopes on people like
Pete Buttigieg as possibly beingthe first gay president, that
he might have a chance to dothat.
And then here is thishistorical kind of anomaly of
maybe there was already a gaypresident, but, let's be honest,
he didn't define himself thisway.
Nobody did back then, no.
One of the things that reallysurprised me about when we
(33:41):
watched Lincoln Lover of Mendocumentary movie is that, you
know, gay is a pretty modernconcept.
We didn't really have a way todefine it and I think that
sometimes, even in your book youtouched on that.
Like, growing up you didn'thave a sense of what gay was.
No, no, you didn't have adefinition for that.
Speaker 5 (33:59):
Even though there were elements of it around me, I
never associated myself withthose elements.
I never saw myself in that.
Yeah, you're right.
In fact, the word homosexualitself became into being after
Lincoln's presidency.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
Yeah, I mean it wasn't even recognized as
anything and it wasn't reallytalked about and it wasn't
something that Lincoln wouldhave defined himself as, Whereas
somebody like a Pete Buttigiegobviously that is his identity.
I mean, that's a part that wecannot change, but in relation
to history it's interesting tothink about these possibilities
(34:36):
that we might have a heroalready in there.
Speaker 5 (34:39):
Yeah, well too, because I think the president
that was right before Lincoln.
I don't recall his name.
Rumors are that he was as well.
He was never married, so he wasa bachelor and again, it might
be the one right before him.
It was certainly one beforeLincoln.
I don't recall his name.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
Well, and it's hard to ascribe that to people, like
we said, because we don't haveany of the facts.
I mean, they're not here to ask.
Obviously, james Buchanan wasactually the president before
Lincoln and he was the onlypresident to have been a
lifelong bachelor.
So there you go.
Maybe gay men were reallypopular during this time of
(35:18):
American history.
Speaker 5 (35:19):
Yeah, well, and again you talk about the time that
they lived in and that wouldn'thave been talked about.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
Yeah Well, it was wild to think that I mean James
Buchanan not having a first lady, you know.
Speaker 5 (35:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
That's kind of interesting because we really do
have a lot.
I think Mary Todd Lincoln ishaving a moment with O'Mary on
Broadway and a lot of peopleplaying her and a lot is being
made of her mental state duringthis time which she was book was
kind of.
Speaker 5 (35:47):
I wouldn't say it's unkind to her, but it certainly
revealed parts of her that I'venever heard before.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Well, what was interesting in the book?
In the Clarence Arthur Trippbook?
It really paints kind of anunflattering picture of her as
like an opportunist that she wasbasically marrying for power,
for money and doing these kindof like almost con artists type
things with federal money andstuff, and it was very weird.
It really reminded me a lot ofsome of the problems that we see
maybe today.
You know misappropriation ofgovernment funds and using it
(36:14):
for something else and you knowall these different kind of
strange things that seem likemodern problems but they're
really not.
Speaker 5 (36:21):
Yeah, it almost seemed like oh, we were.
We have been here before.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
Yeah, but I mean again, I've always been a fan of
the Mary Todd Lincoln storyjust because it was interesting
to me.
I think she had a lot ofchallenges and I don't think
that she also was diagnosed verywell for her psychological or
psychiatric issues back in theday and that was another thing
is back in the day we didn'thave modern, modern pharmacology
to address things likedepression or anxiety or bipolar
(36:47):
disorder or anything like that.
And it looks like as a couple,abraham and Mary Todd maybe had
some of those issues and theytalked about Lincoln having very
bad depressive issues a lot.
Speaker 5 (36:56):
Especially after that one gentleman passed away.
He was very depressed for along time.
In fact, they put him onsuicide watch and took
everything away from him that hecould commit suicide with.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Yeah, yeah.
It's amazing to look at all ofthat as a thing.
So would you recommend theIntimate World of Abraham
Lincoln as a book to read?
Speaker 5 (37:15):
Okay.
So, yes, yes, I would, but notfor entertainment purposes
because, as you said, it's adifficult read.
It does give you some insightinto the actual history Because
it was an unfinished work.
You can definitely tell thatwhen you read the book.
So if you want the information,yes, read the book.
If you want to be entertained,this might not be the book for
(37:37):
you.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
Yeah, it's a very academic book and it feels like
it's addressed at LincolnScholars.
I enjoyed it and I read thewhole thing.
I think a lot of the peoplethat we were in the book club
with they put it down after acertain point.
But I actually slogged throughthe whole thing because to me I
guess I was a history major incollege partially and I just
really kind of thought, okay,this is neat.
(37:57):
But it wasn't a history per se,it was more of a kind of
psychological essay about maybehis sexual intentions and
orientations and things likethat.
So there wasn't a lot, therewas no narrative, there was no
nothing that you could hanganything on.
Right.
So I think, but I think that ifyou're really interested in this
topic, the movie AbrahamLincoln, Lover of Men does a
(38:17):
good job of kind of taking thebook and summarizing it yeah
yeah, yeah, yeah, take themExactly.
Speaker 5 (38:24):
It follows the books, or the book pretty much.
There are some things that theyleft out, but it does then add
the opinions and talk about whatwas coming for the day.
So, yeah, if you're going toread the book, you should
actually see the show as well.
Well, it's a good reinforcement.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Yeah, but I think if you're going to choose one over
the other and you're not goingto spend time doing both, I
would say pick the documentary.
Yeah, I agree, probably alittle bit more entertaining and
short.
Speaker 5 (38:45):
A couple hours You're done the book.
It'll take you several days.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Yeah, it's not a fast read but again an important
work and definitely one that weshould recognize.
And a big thank you to ClarenceArthur Tripp for blazing the
trail on this whole discussionand reframing the idea of the
way that the world saw AbrahamLincoln and possibly saying that
he was at least bisexual, ifnot homosexual, and that he
would have been a queer voiceback in his day and ended the
(39:13):
Civil War and freed, you know,the slaves and did all of these
amazing things and became one ofthe, you know, most influential
presidents, probably the mostinfluential president of our
time, yep, yep Of our nation'shistory, for sure, for sure.
Speaker 5 (39:26):
And it goes back to that phrase that you know, I
like so well, from the 1980s weare everywhere, not always seen,
but we are there, and this is agood illustration of that.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
Yeah, no, that's a good point.
It definitely gives you somehope and some faith that we have
been changing the world andhave been a part of the world,
and even though we probablyaren't recognized as such all
the time.
But true, we're there, allright.
Well, is that about wrap ourdiscussion on Abraham Lincoln?
Speaker 5 (39:52):
It does, capturing our history.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
Yes, all right.
Well, we'll be back next timewith something that hopefully
just as interesting.
Yeah, I'm Brett Cullum, andtoday I am joined by two women
(40:25):
working with Lion WomanProductions.
I have the director of theircurrent show, dancing Lessons,
by Mark St Germain Her name isMichelle Britton and I have
Adrienne Shearer, who she's inthe production and she's
choreographed the dancing in theshow as well.
Lion Woman Productions broughtus the phenomenal Playhouse
Creatures last year, whichshowed a dramatic vision of
(40:47):
women acting in history, and nowthis new show, dancing Lessons,
runs September 11th through the21st 2025 at the Match, and I
don't know why I felt like I hadto include the year there, but
hey, in case you are listeningto this in the future.
But thank you both for beinghere.
(41:07):
I'm so excited to talk to youabout Dancing Lessons.
Speaker 6 (41:10):
Thank you.
Thank you for having us.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
Tell me a little bit about the show this year.
What is Dancing Lessons about?
Speaker 7 (41:18):
It's about a man with Asperger's and his what I like
to say, his dogged determinationto learn to dance.
Because he has a very publicpotentially horrifying public
event coming up an awards dinnerand so he seeks out someone to
teach him to dance, and he'spegged to this former Broadway
(41:38):
dancer who, as it turns out, isnow disabled.
And so it's this.
It's beautiful, it's joyous,it's hard, because we get to
walk in his world and learn moreabout what it is to be somebody
on the spectrum who has tonavigate a world that really
(42:01):
doesn't accommodate that.
And then it's also I think thisis my tagline I think it's
about, when it comes to normal,we're all on the spectrum,
because it really is about howboth of them have these huge
struggles in their life, and Ithink I don't want to give away
(42:23):
too much, but they attempt toconnect as human beings and
there's a tremendous amount ofpower in connecting with another
human being and it can be veryhealing.
So, and it's a great, it's anice little script.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
Yeah, no, it is not at all what I was expecting,
because I just I always thoughtI'd be like shall we dance?
I mean, I thought it was maybelike that, and now you've given
me this whole idea.
It sounds much deeper and muchmore resonant, so I am glad.
And it obviously makes it sosmaller cast, this time only
three people.
Is that right?
Because I know, are you in it?
Speaker 7 (42:59):
I don't.
Yeah, adrian actually appearsin it.
I don't want to say too muchbut it's.
But you'll love it when you seeit the way we've incorporated
her expertise and her artistryand then she does have her own
theater that and professionallyhelps assess people on the
(43:19):
spectrum and also with specialneeds.
I don't need to talk too muchabout that, she can talk about
that.
But there is this beautiful I'mlosing my words here but
there's this beautiful affinityor sync between these two things
dance and the ability for danceto help heal and movement and
(43:42):
people that are on the spectrumin particular.
That's what this play is about.
She's, she, adrian, is part ofhow we've crafted this show to
show how dance can heal and be apart of healing well, adrian,
tell me a little bit about yourwork.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
Tell me about, like, what you do, and uh, yes, so I.
Speaker 6 (44:02):
I met michelle uh recently at movement workshop
and she asked if I'm a dancerand expressed she was looking
for a dancer and choreographerfor this upcoming convention.
Having no idea it was reallyfate that brought us together.
Having no idea my backgroundwith the autistic population, so
(44:23):
I have been serving theautistic population as an
adaptive arts specialist andeducator since 2014.
And in 2019, I founded AllianceTheater, which is a
neurodivergent Houston-basedtheater.
We produce issue-based showsand we serve adults primarily on
(44:45):
the autism spectrum, but wehave a little bit of everybody.
And the reason I startedAlliance is because I saw a need
for training in the arts forautistic individuals who are
incredibly talented and justneeded a platform, just needed
somebody to give them thatopportunity.
(45:08):
And when I first began my workwith the autistic population
back in 2014, it was at a littlemiddle school.
I had six middle school boysand I was well not sure what to
do.
To be honest, I wouldn't either.
I had never worked with apopulation before and I was
(45:31):
given a set of goals for eachstudent social goals that they
had to meet.
And you know, having a BA intheater, I thought, well, let's
put on a show, because I knowhow to do that.
And so magic things startedhappening.
They started really developingempathy and learning how to
express that empathy andlearning how to understand these
(45:55):
characters that they wereplaying, feeling more confident,
feeling more themselves andreally empowered.
And so we started meeting thesesocial goals through the power
of theater and dance andmovement.
And when I saw that, I washooked and I haven't looked back
since.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
So that's a testament .
I mean, the arts really aresomething a little bit more than
just entertaining people.
I think it is a lot abouthealing people and making them
more confident and willing to domore.
I mean, I think that growing upI know my parents were always
just horrified by the fact thatI was taking acting classes and
things like that.
You know, they're like you know, no, you just take accounting,
right.
But guess what I've used moreof in my life, you know?
(46:40):
So there you are Definitely oneof those.
But particularly with people onthe spectrum, I can see how it
would be very effectivetreatment and things like that,
because it is aboutcommunicating in different ways
through movement and things likethat.
That would kind of be appealingfor that.
But you've got two actors inthis.
(47:00):
You've got Katrina Ellsworthand Brad Gertz, who are two of
my favorite actors in Houston.
How did you cast this and dideither of them have any dance
experience before they came in?
Because I'm not aware of it.
Speaker 7 (47:13):
Well, I think I mean both of them move well, but
Katrina is a Pilates instructorand so there's an alignment of
some of her skills and both ofthem yeah, both of them move
well.
But it was, it was important tome to.
I wanted to give a sort of a, avery in again, I apologize my
(47:39):
words.
I wanted to go more in depth inthe rehearsal process then, so
we expanded it, we had a longerrehearsal process, we used
improv, we used lab and movementagain with my friend, jamie
Garner, who's now based inAustralia, so she did a Zoom, a
series of Zoom workshops with usand she's going to take one
more look for us.
I worked again with Deborah Hopeon intimacy and the actors have
(48:03):
expressed delight really in.
Oh, these are additional skillsI can add to my skill set
because I've always been anactor first.
So creating an actor friendlyrehearsal process is a goal for
me.
I don't know everything right,but this has been a particular,
it's been a creative highlightin my life.
Gotta say the the collaboratorsI have and I do.
(48:28):
I know brad and katrinapersonally and I love their work
.
I didn't, I did hold auditionsand and they ended up being, I
thought, the best match andactually you know if, if for one
reason or another they couldn'thave worked out, there were
other great people that I couldhave cast.
Yeah, always.
(48:48):
It's not just about what theydeliver on stage, it's how they
are, how they behaveprofessionally, the grace that
they allow when stuff you know,some cue goes wrong or we have
to start over yet again on alight thing.
They're just very, theyunderstand the process and
they're with you Really, which,I feel, all of the designers and
(49:09):
the creative artists on thisproject.
They signed on and they haveautomatically brought their
passion and their expertise andit's been a true collaboration,
because whatever I envisioned inmy head has changed
substantively, not in the visionbut in how it's realized.
And that is to the.
(49:30):
I'm very grateful for thehumbleness to be open to these
incredible voices that aresaying, hey, what if we did it
this way?
They get it.
They understand where I want togo with the show.
Adrienne God.
All I had to do was describeWell, I'm thinking something,
something, and a lot of it wastryout, because what she is
doing in the show is kind of atakeoff of what's in the show.
(49:57):
We haven't changed any dialogueor anything, but she really is
realizing some emotionalsituations for us and, like I
said, helping us understand thepower of dance to connect you to
another human being, and Iwould just give her like a
suggestion or say, well, it'skind of like this, and then
she'd come back with thisamazing like wow, that's really
(50:20):
good.
You know you get it.
So yeah, it's been easy.
It's like you can order art.
Speaker 6 (50:34):
It's delivered to you by this powerful, powerful
woman.
So, yeah, it's been a reallygood collaboration.
Thank you, michelle.
Yes, For me, it's really been awonderful experience.
For me.
I haven't been on stage since2018 because I've been so
devoted with you know, runningthings over at Alliance, so it
was so nice to have you come tome with this project, especially
(50:54):
concerning a subject I'm sovery passionate about, and one
of the things that I've lovedabout the experience is how open
you are as a director, tocollaboration and just thinking
so outside the box and willingto try several different things
and experiment in different ways, and the rest of the crew has
(51:15):
been that way as well.
So gracious, very humble, andit's just been a wonderful
experience, yeah that's gosh.
Speaker 7 (51:25):
I really, I almost look forward to.
You know, in the rehearsalprocess there were times where
we, where there still are acouple of gaps where, hmm, this
isn't happening, how do we solveit?
And that's the stuff that I'mreally enjoying the most is
those big question marks.
Oh, this isn't working like wethought it would.
What are we going to do?
And because I know I've gotlike eight brains that are going
(51:47):
to come together and solve it.
And it's fascinating and itgets solved.
It gets solved and it getsrealized in a better way.
So the creative process I justBrett, if you haven't had a
chance to be on stage in a while, you know that's wonderful,
it's a wonderful opportunity andit's not always like that, but
(52:07):
it really is a hallmark of thebrand I want to bring with Lion
Woman is we make it actorfriendly and we make it about
people first.
So every time I come back tothat it helps inform me about a
particular decision here, thereor yonder.
And you know you can't do it all, but it's.
(52:29):
I do think that's a nicheSometimes.
People, it goes without sayingwe want to treat you fairly and
all this kind of stuff.
I do think it's kind of a nicheidea to say, no, I'm really not
interested in doing theaterjust for the sake of theater.
I really want it to be a kindpeople-first experience and I
want the audience to walk awayhopefully just feeling great
(52:55):
about the show they just saw andreally opening their hearts,
maybe a little bit more.
And this show is definitely for, I would say, neurotypical
people.
It's to give you some.
I mean, of course, everybody'swelcome, but it really is a walk
that most of us do not take.
So you get to find out a lotmore and we've made it a bit
(53:16):
experiential.
We've made it experiential forthe audience in a good way.
Speaker 2 (53:22):
Well, I'm looking forward to it.
Obviously, September 11ththrough the 21st at the match.
Which match auditorium are youin?
One this okay, so match box onesmall space yes but this is the
intimate space and it's great,and they have good air
conditioning, especially thistime of year.
Speaker 7 (53:38):
Oh my gosh, yeah and a jewel, just a jewel of a set,
so oh oh, yeah, you do.
Speaker 2 (53:44):
You always have great sets, yeah, so, and obviously
Lion Woman Productions, and youdo one show a year right now.
Is that right oh?
Speaker 7 (53:52):
that's.
That's what we're able to do,yeah.
Speaker 2 (53:54):
OK, all right, so I will.
Speaker 7 (53:56):
It's always associated with community
outreach.
That's another part of themission is to align that, so we
do.
Last time for PlayhouseFeatures, we did three different
events.
Speaker 2 (54:09):
I remember.
Speaker 7 (54:10):
Yeah, and this time we have two plus.
We haven't been able to work itout yet, but I'd like to be a
part of a fundraiser where wecould collaborate for Alliance
Theater.
So there would be three again,three community.
Speaker 2 (54:24):
All right.
Well, awesome, well, thank youboth so much.
I appreciate you taking thetime to talk about dancing
lessons, and I will be therethis week.
Speaker 7 (54:36):
Hey, we look forward to seeing you.
Yeah, yeah, we'll hoist a glass.
Speaker 2 (54:57):
Oh yes, we will definitely do that.
Oh yes, we will definitely dothat.
The Marriott Marquis indowntown Houston on Walker
Street.
You can get tickets through theMontreux Center's website,
located easily enough atmontreuxcenterorg.
The event is on October 4th andstarts at 7 pm.
It will honor Brad Pritchettand Atlantis Narcisse.
(55:18):
If you are interested inClarence Arthur Tripp's book, it
is called the Intimate World ofAbraham Lincoln.
You can find that anywherebooks are sold.
Lincoln Lover of Men is adocumentary it was made in 2024,
and it is available throughstreaming outlets like Amazon or
Apple.
We also talked about dancinglessons in this episode and that
(55:40):
runs through September 21st atthe Match in Midtown.
Lion Woman Productions presentsit and tickets are available at
the Match website or throughthe Lion Woman Productions site.
Do not forget this weekend.
The Flux Houston Pool Partywill be held on September 20th
at the Heights House Hotel thatis on Cavalcade Street and will
(56:03):
start at noon.
It is free to attend, butdefinitely register with Flux
Houston.
Look for them on Instagram.
The Montrose Country Club isgoing to be the site for a
fundraiser for Cubbies, an LGBTQsoftball team.
That will happen on Saturdayfrom 3 pm until 6 pm at the
Montrose Country Club.
Now, if you are a ballet fan,out at.
(56:23):
The Ballet will be held onSeptember 26th.
Thank you for listening toQueer Voices.
We will be back next week.
Speaker 1 (56:44):
This has been Queer Voices, heard on KPFT Houston
and as a podcast available fromseveral podcasting sources.
Check our webpageQueerVoicesorg for more
information.
Queer Voices executive produceris Brian Levinka, deborah
Moncrief-Bell is co-producer,brett Cullum and David
(57:08):
Mendoza-Druzman are contributors.
The News Wrap segment is partof another podcast called this
Way Out, which is produced inLos Angeles.
Speaker 4 (57:19):
Some of the material in this program has been edited
to improve clarity and runtime.
This program does not endorseany political views or animal
species.
Views, opinions andendorsements are those of the
participants and theorganizations they represent.
In case of death, pleasediscontinue use and discard
remaining products.
Speaker 1 (57:31):
For Queer Voices.
I'm Glenn Holt, Thank you.
This is KPFT 90.1 FM Houston, 89.5 FM Galveston, 91.9
FM Huntsville, and worldwide onthe internet at kpftorg.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
You are listening to Queer Voices, which is a radio
show on KPFT Houston 90.1 FM anda podcast online that has been
part of Houston's LGBTQIA pluscommunity for over five decades.
We're going to talk politics,issues, culture and the arts all
from an all inclusive, yetqueer perspective.
Hi, I'm Brett Cullum and I amyour tour guide for this evening
(00:47):
, wednesday.
And the arts all from anall-inclusive, yet queer
perspective.
Hi, I'm Brett Cullum and I amyour tour guide for this evening
, wednesday, september 17th.
On tonight's episode, I speakwith the interim CEO of Equality
Texas, brad Pritchett.
Brad is being honored at theMontrose Center's Out for Good
Dinner and Fundraiser on October4th at the Marriott Marquis.
Brad is a celebrated activistand we talk about what is
(01:09):
happening today in a landscapethat is not quite friendly to
our community.
After that segment, I bring inmy husband, r Lee Ingalls, to
talk about the groundbreaking2005 book about Abraham Lincoln
by Clarence Arthur Tripp, aswell as the 2024 documentary
Lincoln, lover of Men.
Finally, I get to talk withMichelle Britton and Adrian
Shearer of Lion WomanProductions.
They are putting on a playcalled Dancing Lessons, which
(01:32):
runs at the match throughSeptember 21st, so you only have
a week left to catch it.
It's a love story about a manwith Asperger's syndrome, sort
of a love on the specter typething.
Hi, this is Brett Cullum andtoday I am joined by Brad
(01:53):
Pritchett.
He is a well-known politicalactivist here in Houston.
He is currently the interimchief executive officer of
Equality Texas and that positionlasts through December 2025.
But he has a long legacy ofadvocating and rallying for the
LGBTQIA plus community.
Brad served as a three-termpresident of the Houston
(02:15):
Stonewall Young Democrats, whichthey helped to identify
pro-equality candidates and getthem elected to office.
He's also worked as a policyand advocacy strategist with the
ACLU of Texas, worked oncriminal justice reform in
Dallas and the Texas legislature.
He's a fixture at our politicalcaucus meetings, always
(02:36):
strikingly tall, bespeckledmodel of a man with a confidence
, presence and a clear voice.
He's going to be honored thisyear at Out for Good.
The Montrose Center's largestfundraiser of the year will be
held this time on October 4th atthe Marriott Marquis in Houston
.
Thank you for being here, brad.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Thank you for having me, and what an introduction.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
It's always over the top, but I feel like you deserve
it.
You're being honored, obviouslyat Out for Good.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
And one of the things that I always wondered how in
the world did you first enterpolitics?
You know, I went to school forcommunications actually.
So I was working in televisionfor a chunk of time I won't say
which network, because it's nota good one, but I was working in
television and I was interestedin being involved in politics
and I didn't really know how toget involved.
So in Houston, you know you'rea queer person, you're trying to
figure out what's what there isfor you to do, and the Houston
LGBTQ political caucus has beenaround for so long and has such
(03:31):
a storied reputation that it wasone of the orgs that people
were like do you know about thisorganization?
And I started going to meetingsand I joined and then that got
me thinking about likeprogressive politics with the
Democratic Party and Democraticpolicies.
So I started to get involved insome of the Democratic clubs
and I was just one of thosepeople who showed up and would
(03:54):
always raise my hand whensomebody wanted a volunteer to
do something.
So this is what I tell peopleconstantly is I was just a
person who showed up and whensomebody said, does somebody
know how to do this, I wouldraise my hand and say I do, and
sometimes it was true andsometimes it was not true and I
would just figure it out,because I always figured if the
person asking, if anybody knewhow to do this, they probably
didn't know how to do it.
So if I could figure it out,they wouldn't know if it was
(04:16):
done the right way or the wrongway as long as it got done.
So I just kind of showed up toeverything all the time and try
to make myself useful.
And even now when I go to eventsand a lot of times I have to
speak at them I'm always likecan somebody give me a job to do
?
I'd rather like be doingsomething, doing something, give
me something logistical to workon.
So that was really kind of my.
My thought process was justshow up for everything and try
(04:37):
to figure out like where you can, where you can do your part.
And that's how I ended up atStonewall and somewhere, young
Dems.
I was just a member for a longtime and then somebody asked me
to join that board and then Iwent from just being on the
board to end up being thepresident of it and I just, you
know, anytime there wassomething that popped up that I
really cared about.
I would just try to do what Icould to engage on it and try to
draw other people in.
(04:57):
And that's when one day Iturned around and realized, wow,
I'm like an organizer, and Ididn't even know that I was an
organizer.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
It was great you know , sometimes showing up is 90% of
the battle.
I mean, I think that that'sabsolutely true.
So tell me a little bit aboutEquality Texas.
I want people out there thatdon't know anything about it.
What does it do?
Speaker 3 (05:15):
So Equality Texas we're the state's largest LGBTQ
advocacy organization.
We're almost the oldest, butthe Houston LGBTQ Political
Caucus beat us by about threeyears.
So the caucus was founded in1975.
Equality Texas, the foundationof Equality Texas, was founded
in 1978.
And it was literally a group ofLGBTQ plus people who came
(05:35):
together because they wereworried about a budget rider
being considered at the Texaslegislature that would have
defunded schools that allowedLGBTQ clubs to be created on
campus.
So they came together over thatsingle issue of the ledge.
And then the next legislativesession some groups merged
together, hired a lobbyist towork on LGBTQ rights, and that's
(05:56):
kind of where Equality Texaswas birthed out of.
So in 2006, the name changed toEquality Texas.
But we are probably best knownfor the work we do at the
legislature.
So every two years thelegislature decides it's going
to take up some bills targetingour community every year.
So we're really well known forthe work we do there.
We have a pretty good trackrecord of stopping most of the
(06:17):
worst stuff from getting throughthe legislature.
But beyond that, we're working365 days a year all across the
state of Texas.
So we have staff all over thestate.
We work to make sure folks haveskills that they may need to be
their own advocates locally.
We do leadership developmentprograms.
We do public education events.
We're launching several verylarge programs that are going to
(06:39):
be running across the statethis year in the wake of the
legislative session to make surefolks understand what bills
passed and what that means forcommunity members and how to
mitigate the harm of those bills.
So as a whole, we are apolitical and an advocacy
organization that is committedto making sure that the state is
the state it should be forLGBTQ plus folks living here.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
That's an amazing mission and I always see you
guys headed out to Austin andactually confronting them like
face to face.
It's actually like a veryengaged organization that seems
to really do a lot, just in thepresence and again showing up
90% of the battle, probably, andfighting for this stuff.
Well, how does it feel to behonored by the Montreux Center,
(07:20):
and now for good?
I love the Montreux Center,first and foremost.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
I don't like spotlights, so they had to
really really pressure me intosaying yes.
But you know I will doeverything and anything I can to
help uplift the work at theMontreux Center.
So I'm honored to be honored.
But it also is just one ofthose spaces that makes me
slightly uncomfortable to be inlike a position where you have
to like be handed an award.
Like I said, when I go toevents I'm like give me a job to
(07:44):
do.
I don't want to have to be theperson that's in the spotlight,
but it's lovely and it's givenme an opportunity to work even
closer with the folks at theMontreux Center that I get to
work with in my role at EqualityTexas, but in a different way.
So it's nice.
We're not stressing about thelegislature in our conversations
, we're talking aboutcelebration, so that's a nice
(08:04):
change of pace for me.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
It's going to be great to get the flowers, so to
speak, and to have a momentwhere you can just kind of
celebrate, because this is areally difficult time
politically, and I wanted totalk to you a little bit about
that, about our current climateand everything and what you're
seeing out there.
I mean, do you worry aboutbeing in politics right now?
I mean, we're seeing politicalviolence is on the rise, no
(08:27):
matter who you are, and Texas isa crushingly red state.
It just seems like.
Do you worry about being thisvisible and this on the cusp of
everything?
Speaker 3 (08:36):
It's interesting because, you know, my husband
and I've had this conversation alot, especially recently.
I'm no stranger to gettingnasty emails or things in the
physical mail that show up atthe office that call me all
kinds of names or make threatsagainst me, but at the end of
the day, like I view it as justkind of part of the job.
It's always kind of been thatway.
For folks organizing in LGBTQrights, there are always going
(08:58):
to be people who want to doeverything they can to
intimidate us into silence orwant to try to scare us into,
you know, going back intoclosets.
So for me I take it in stride,I mean sometimes.
Sure, I will maybe worry aboutit, maybe I lose a little bit of
sleep over it, but I'm notgoing to let it stop me from
doing the things that I know Ineed to be doing.
I think from a broaderperspective, you know we've seen
(09:19):
in Texas, especially over thelast probably five years, this
kind of increased vitriol beingspewed at our community to the
point where we were having, andstill are having, people show up
at, you know, drag bingoshosted by churches, carrying
long rifles and wearing masks,with protest signs and working
(09:42):
these anti-LGBTQ activistsworking lockstep next to white
nationalist organizations toprotest draft performances, to
try to intimidate people fromshowing up or intimidate venues
from hosting anything related toour community.
At Equality Texas, at least foraround the last five years or so
, we've been really focused onwhat security looks like for the
community.
So when we are planning publicevents, that's part of the
(10:05):
conversation is what are wedoing to make sure that the
venue is as safe as it can be?
We work with organizations likeVeterans for Equality so that
we have people at our events,kind of monitoring who's coming
and who's going, and we keeptrack of who the most visible
opposition folks are.
We actually have oppositionlookbooks that have photos of
people, basically breaks downwhere we've seen them, what
(10:27):
they've done, what their modusoperandi are, if they're just
protesters, if they'redisruptors, and we distribute
those to folks when they come tothings so that they know who to
avoid.
So for us, you know the climateright now is so much worse than
it's probably been in a verylong time, but there are still
things that we can do to makesure that we're safe and the
community safe.
So we try to.
(10:47):
We try to really just beproactive about safety for all
members of the community.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
You know, I even see it at the bar level.
I mean it's like everybody hasthis increased security.
Everybody has this feeling oflike maybe we're not as safe as
we used to be a little while ago.
So, and I feel like beingtransgender now is almost
dangerous in and of itself.
It's a lightning rod,particularly for black trans
women.
I think that we had the murdernumbers that had been going down
(11:13):
a little bit, but now I noticedthat they are on the rise again
and a lot of these deaths kindof involve guns.
And you know, we're bothcisgender gay men and I want to
be a great ally to thetransgender community.
So how can we do that from ourposition?
What can we do better tosupport that part of our
community?
Speaker 3 (11:30):
I think as cis, especially cis white men, we
have a responsibility to do whatwe can to not expect trans
people to be the people alwaysbeing visible and always
speaking up.
It's dangerous Visibility, isdangerous across the board for a
lot of folks right now.
But one of the things thatwe've seen is, you know, trans
folks in particular, when theyare visible, when they turn out
and they testify, they're theones who are getting doxxed way
(11:51):
faster than anybody else.
So, like opposition folks willtry to track down who they are,
who they work for, and it's thesame when we deal with like
protest situations.
You know, two years ago at theCapitol we were fighting an
anti-LGBTQ bill and the Speakerof the House at the time ordered
the entire Capitol building tobe cleared by DPS.
So they cleared the galleries,they cleared the entire building
(12:12):
.
We were being forced by these,you know, marching essentially
stormtroopers downstairs.
They wouldn't let elderlypeople get to elevators, like it
was.
It was the worst you couldpossibly imagine happening in
that building, and what made itthe worst was the DPS knew who
the most visible trans activistswere and those were the people
they targeted with violence andwith arrests.
(12:34):
So a very good friend of minewas helping get people out of
the building, helping people getdown the stairs, and they got
jumped by probably seven DPSofficers from behind.
They were complying with orders, they were helping people move
and they just happened to be avery visible trans activist and
probably 5'5 and height, likenot a huge, not an intimidating
(12:56):
person in any way, shape or form, getting slammed to the ground
by seven huge DPS officers andone attempting to put their you
know, their knee against theirneck and the only thing that
protected them was theirbackpack falling and blocking
their neck.
But we noticed that pattern,that they knew exactly who the
most visible trans people wereand they went after those people
and they were all transactivists and they were people
(13:17):
of color.
So in situations like that, it'salso up to us who are cis white
people to put ourselves, andsometimes our bodies, in between
the law enforcement folks whoare being told to attack people
like that and the folks that arebeing targeted.
And if nothing else, us beingthere gives people time to get
away, and if that means we getarrested or we're the ones that
take the brunt of that, we justneed to be willing to take that,
(13:39):
because too often it targetspeople who are going to be even
more in danger if they get putin jail.
So, like we know, right now inthe state of Texas, they're
passing all these.
They pass all these laws.
One of the laws they passedstrictly defines gender in
binary, unscientific terms foruse across the board.
So that includes, like, wheresomebody is going to be put when
(14:00):
they get arrested, going to beput when they get arrested.
So even if there are policiesin place that would protect
trans people, we may see thosepolicies getting questioned by
the folks who actually run lawenforcement agencies.
So, for white cis people,especially white cis men, I
think that's really importantfor us to be looking at how
these things are being targetedfor trans people and where can
we insert ourselves to provideprotection and support for the
(14:22):
folks who need to be visible andwho have to have their voices
heard.
But maybe we can just bebuffers that help protect them a
little bit more.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Well, what are you seeing as the top issues right
now and what are you working onas Equality, texas and things
like that?
What is your main objectives orthe top issues that are popping
up?
Speaker 3 (14:40):
I mean, I think right now, the number one thing that
we're always going to be workingon is making sure that the
state of Texas isn't weaponizinggovernment against the
community, particularly againsttrans people.
We keep seeing how weak andineffective our state leaders
are, and so much so that ifDonald Trump says jump, greg
Abbott is already in the air andsaying tell me when to do it
(15:02):
again, daddy, and it's there'sno leadership from the state of
Texas.
It's basically following theorders of this criminal in the
White House.
So I think part of it is whenthe Trump administration turns
around and lobs out this youknow terrible stuff about the
queer community and LGBTQ peoplein general watching and trying
to make sure that the Texasadministration isn't just
(15:23):
parroting it, which they will,and then being prepared for it.
How do we make sure that ourcommunity is ready for whatever
they're trying to do policy-wise?
I think the second part of itis you know we had seven
explicitly anti-LGBTQ plus billsget passed by the legislature
this year six in the regularsession, one in special session
and part of what we've beendoing, part of what we were
doing before those bills evergot passed or were even moving
(15:45):
through the process was figuredout how we could try to chip
away at the enforcement of thosebills, because a lot of the
enforcement is left up toprivate companies and private
individuals.
So a good example is one of thebills that was passed affected
your electronic health records.
So when you go to the doctorand you look at something called
MyChart, it shows you like, oh,your background, your history,
your medical history, and therewas a bill that was passed that
(16:07):
explicitly said that electronichealth vendors had to only put
in biological sex assigned atbirth, but it didn't
specifically say that theycouldn't include other things.
That bill we figured out whoall the vendors were that worked
in the state of Texas, forevery hospital, ambulance
service, private medicalfacility, dentist, you name it.
(16:29):
We found them and we created alist of recommendations and said
you may have to comply withthis law to the letter, but here
are the other things that thelaw doesn't say you can't do.
So do these things and that islike ensuring that people are
being called by the right name,that they're being respected in
their pronouns, that they knowthat they are going into their
doctor's office fully able to bewho they are and one of the
(16:51):
largest vendors in the state ofTexas, actually, that does most
of the hospitals in the stateand a lot of the private
practices responded to us almostimmediately and said let's meet
and figure out how we canimplement your recommendations.
And said let's meet and figureout how we can implement your
recommendations.
So even when these bills arepassing and they're bad bills,
we're already ahead of them insome ways by talking to the
people that have to implementthem and saying, fine, you may
(17:12):
have to do this stupid thing,but you can do these 12 great
things too, and these 12 greatthings don't cost you anything.
And if you're already having to, like spend money to update
your system, just do these 12great things too while you're
doing this one crappy thing.
So part of it has been usthinking about how do these
bills get implemented and wheredo we get ahead of them before
they actually get signed andimplemented in law?
And we're working on that rightnow with the most recent
(17:33):
bathroom bill talking to citiesand school districts and
political subdivisions andgiving them things the state of
Texas did not give them whenthey passed this bill and kind
of just left it open tointerpretation.
Well, we're interpreting it forthem now and giving them an
interpretation that protects ourcommunity and hopefully they'll
take it.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Hopefully.
Well, one of the things Iwanted to ask you just generally
.
I think that we all feel thislike malaise or something.
It's this time, in this era,where the sanctity of politics
feels violated.
It feels like our vote in ourown state is being obliterated
by redistricting and things likethat, and you mentioned the
seven laws that we got passedthat were anti-LGBTQIA+, and do
(18:15):
you have faith that things willget better and how can we get
there and what can you do, asjust an average person, to help
with this mission?
Speaker 3 (18:24):
I get this question a lot right now yeah, why do you
keep getting up and doing thework you do?
I mean, I would I say this toeverybody like I, I have to have
faith, otherwise I couldn't dothe work that I do.
But my faith isn't necessarilyin the state of Texas, it's in
the people, it's in thecommunity that we're all a part
of, because even when things getand historically you know
(18:45):
there's precedent for this whenthe world itself gets bad, our
community rallies together tosupport one another.
So I think that, as queerpeople, we have that.
We have that comfort at leastor we should have that comfort
in the back of our minds that nomatter how bad the world gets,
no matter how much they try totarget us, our communities
always find ways to support eachother and survive it.
So I think that's one of thethings that I really hold on to
(19:06):
is just knowing that there havebeen battles that have been
fought in the past that wereharder than the moment that
we're in, despite how hard thismoment feels, and our community
came through it and we did itbecause we were together and we
were unified and knew thatsurvival was the purpose and the
point.
So I mean, I have hope alwaysthat it's going to turn around.
I think the way it turns aroundis people have to just stay
engaged, and I'm one of thosepeople who I believe in, I
(19:29):
believe in the power of yourvote, but I also recognize how
frustrating it gets for peopleto be like don't forget that
everything relies on your vote,right, because we all do it, and
then elections don'tnecessarily go our way.
I do believe, like, voting is abig part of it, but I just
think engagement and involvementhas to be a huge part of it as
well, and that is also justgoing into these places and not
pulling punches.
(19:50):
When people are lying, we needto call them liars.
When people are, we shouldn'tsay, oh, you're spreading
misinformation.
It's like you're outright lyingand you know you're lying.
At some point it's going to getto a space where we have to
take the gloves off.
And I think about all the workthat was done around the HIV
crisis, when members of thecommunity were dying and the
government didn't care and knewit was happening and weren't
being pushed to do anything.
(20:11):
And you had organizations likeACT UP shutting down the opening
night of the San FranciscoOpera, right and you had
establishment LGBTQ orgs whowere like you can't do this, oh
my God, they're never going tohelp us.
But it was that like force.
It was going into these spacesand saying we're going to do
whatever we feel is necessary tomake sure our community is safe
and survives.
That really did make thedifference.
(20:32):
I mean, you can just on how thecountry and the pharmaceutical
industry responded to the AIDScrisis because of organizations
like ACT UP.
You can kind of like see whenthose types of disruptions
started to happen.
Those types of protests weretaking place.
I mean Peter Staley climbingonto the roof of the FDA and
dropping the banner and gettingarrested for it.
Suddenly we started to seeprogress.
(20:52):
Suddenly, medication started tobe developed.
Suddenly, it became affordablefor people.
Suddenly, the government had nochoice like where it's going to
be the same.
We're going to have to dothings in a different way.
We're going to have to be evenlouder than we have been and at
some point things will shiftback in a direction where our
community is not going to feelas attacked as we are right now.
(21:13):
But it is going to requirevigilance.
It's going to requireengagement from people.
Folks can't just go to brunchand forget it's happening and
just be like well, I'm going tolive my life, because at no
point are you safe from what'sbeing targeted towards the
community, no matter who you areAt some point.
If you're a queer person,they're going to come for you
too.
So it's better for us to beahead of it and united against
(21:34):
it than to be surprised when ithappens.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
So let me ask you this what is next for you?
The interim role, the CEO role,ends in December 2025.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
What happens to Brad Pritchett?
What's your next move?
I don't know.
I have no idea.
Maybe I'll just sit on a beachfor a little while and enjoy the
ocean.
Sounds of the ocean, put ashell to my ear?
I honestly don't know.
My goal for right now is toensure that Equality Texas, an
organization that I've workedwith for a long time I've worked
for for a while, but I'veworked with for a very long time
I care deeply about theorganization and I want to make
(22:07):
sure that, whatever comes nextfor it, it's set off on a good
path to continue doing theessential work that it does
every single day, because,having been a part of this org
for almost five years now on theinside of it, I recognize what
it means for community membersand all the work that gets done
that nobody ever hears about,but how crucial that work can be
as well.
So I don't know, one day Iguess I'll retire, but I don't
(22:30):
feel like I'm old enough forthat yet.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
So you're definitely not old enough for that.
Yet I hate to tell you you'regoing to have to be showing up a
lot longer.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
But it sounds boring.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
I don't know how people do it, so it does sound
like it could be a little bitmore low key than what you're
experiencing right now, but I'msure it's a fight and I'm sure
that you probably have earned atleast a solid couple of weeks
on the beach.
But thank you, brad Pritchett,for everything that you do.
I mean, obviously, the MontreuxCenter honoring you at Out for
Good, which is October 4th, theMarriott Marquis in Houston.
(23:04):
You can purchase tickets at theMontreux Center's website, and
I can't think of anybody moredeserving for this recognition
than you.
I mean, I know they're probablygoing to have to give you a
logistical job to get you toshow up, but I'm excited that
they're honoring you.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
Yeah, tables, give me something to do.
I'll hang decorations whateveryou need.
Don't tell Avery that becauseshe might actually take me up on
it, but I'll do whatever I needto do to help with that event.
I love the Wanderer Center, soyes it'll be a good time.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
It'll.
It's always a great time andI'm glad that we get to
celebrate you and thank you foraddressing some of the stuff.
That this is a hard time, Imean.
I think that you know it's.
I am ready for a good party andI am ready for a good
celebration of all.
That's great, because it justfeels like the weight of the
world has been heavier than everaround this time.
So out for good, Definitely onmy radar.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
So I mean, we need more queer joy right now, and
this is a good opportunity tofind some Amen.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Hey, there, it's Brett and Lee again, and we are
here to talk about some history.
This week we read a book withpart of a book club that we are
in, by a man named ClarenceArthur Tripp.
It was called the IntimateWorld of Abraham Lincoln.
Now, what's important to knowabout this book is that it was
published 20 years ago and infive.
(24:42):
Tripp was a researcher in thefield of sexuality mainly, but
he was also a history buff.
He was a Lincoln scholar and hewas mostly known for his
partnership studying sex withAlfred Kinsey, and Tripp was the
author of the runawaybestseller, the Homosexual
Matrix.
Well, what happened with thisguy is that he devoted the last
10 years of his life to anexhaustive study of Abraham
(25:02):
Lincoln's writings, and hewanted to prove that he was
basically a two on the Kinseyscale, which meant that he was
pretty much homosexual, exceptfor he did marry Mary, todd
Lincoln.
He obviously had four kids, sowe can't say he was exclusively
homosexual, but this was a bookthat Lee actually picked for our
book club, and I wanted to askyou first, why did you pick the
(25:24):
intimate world of Abraham?
Speaker 5 (25:26):
Lincoln book club and I wanted to ask you first, why
did you pick the intimate worldof Abraham Lincoln?
So I'd heard a lot of thingsabout this part of his life, but
we'd not read anything orreally researched it in any way.
So I thought, with the bookclub and this book coming into
my line of sight, I thought,okay, so this is a good one.
I like history, I like tellingof the real tale of people and
some of those details thataren't commonly known.
(25:46):
So this is something aboutLincoln that's been rumored, not
commonly known.
I wanted to get something bysomeone who did the research
that was either going to confirmit or deny it one way or the
other.
So that's kind of how I becameaware of it and why I
recommended it.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Well, I think the significance of Clarence Arthur
Tripp is that he reframed thediscussion.
I think that he reallyintroduced to scholars and
things like that this idea thatLincoln's well, basically the
love of his life was a gentlemannamed Joshua Speed, who he
spent a lot of time with earlyon in his life and even later.
I mean, they definitely stayedin contact throughout his entire
life and lived together andshared a bed for four years.
Speaker 5 (26:24):
Yeah, when he was a young man.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Well, some people argue that bed sharing was
common back then, but thatlength seems a little bit longer
than what you would expect.
I mean, what would you think oftwo guys that shared a bed for?
Speaker 5 (26:36):
four years.
Yeah Well, a couple of thingsthat make it.
They make it sound unusual, butand we weren't there so we
can't really say what was usualand not unusual for the time.
But it does seem to be a littlebit unusual for them to share
the bed for that length of timewhen other options were
available to Lincoln and thebeds back in those days were
(26:57):
small and Lincoln was kind of abig guy, which they did talk
about, and the fact that evenfor that time other people found
it unusual that they werechoosing those sleeping
arrangements Now there werebasically three people that CA
Tripp cited as basically loversof Lincoln.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
There was David Derrickson, who was the son of a
owner of a general store thatLincoln worked at early in his
life, and they shared lodgingsas well a bed.
And then, of course, joshuaSpeed is a big one.
There's Elmer Ellsworth, who Ithink is really interesting.
It was probably unrequited fromwhat I understand, but
something kind of interestingabout him that you always talk
(27:36):
about is he was the first personto die.
Speaker 5 (27:39):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so, yeah, okay, yeah, so right, he
was the first person to die inthe Civil War, or they credited
him with that, but yeah, soLincoln was very infatuated with
him.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Yeah, he was devastated when Elmer was killed
, basically.
And then, of course, trippcites a lot of things.
Abraham Lincoln was a fan of agood, dirty joke.
Who knew that he did off-colorhumor?
Speaker 5 (28:04):
Yes, he certainly did .
Speaker 2 (28:05):
Yeah, and he was emotionally distant from a lot
of the women in his life, um,and of course we know those
women as ann rutledge, maryowens and of course, his wife
and firstly lady mary toddlincoln, so there was a lot of
interesting stuff about thosepeople as well.
Speaker 5 (28:19):
it was kind of a reoccurring theme in the letters
and articles and written abouthim during that day.
So this is not speculation.
This is something that comesdirectly out of people that were
writing about him during thattime frame that he just did not
seem to be that engaged withwomen that were around him.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Yeah, which historically might not be that
out of the ordinary, just simplybecause I think that men
generally socialized with men inthat time and women generally
socialized with women.
It was very not a lot ofcrossing there.
You didn't have a lot offriends that were of the
opposite gender and things likethat.
Speaker 5 (28:53):
So the thing that's kind of difficult to extract
from everything that we read wasyou know what was common for
that day, you know what wasconsidered normal, or you know I
always talk about.
You cannot fault people forliving in the time that they
lived in.
So what was, what did his timelook like, and how how much of
(29:14):
this is actually relevant forthat time period or not?
Speaker 2 (29:17):
Well, and one of the things that we did watch to help
us with that particular issuewas we watched a new or newish
documentary.
It's called Abraham LincolnLincoln, lover of men.
It was released in 2024.
And it really kind of takes theClarence Arthur trip argument
and puts it into a little bit ofyou know talking head style
documentary talking about thatand they they kind of act out
(29:38):
some of it with the Joshua speedand the Lincoln thing and make
it a little bit more provocative, true, true, and they try to
answer the question.
Speaker 5 (29:45):
So in this book, a little bit more about the book
itself.
So he worked on this book for10 years.
He finished the draft of thisbook, which my understanding is
this is the draft.
He never did do his final editsto it and when you read the
book, or if you read the book,you will find it's a little bit
difficult to read from that.
For that reason it doesn't seemto have a clear overall arc
(30:06):
from the start to the end and henever really gets to where he's
saying this is what thismessage means and how it should
be translated.
So that's kind of missing andthe show that we watch kind of
does take that then and says sothis is what he said and what he
saw, but this is what it reallymeans and adds an opinion to it
(30:28):
that you don't really get fromthe book itself.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
I think he was really trying to be academic and I
think that that was one of theproblems that our book club had.
Speaker 5 (30:38):
It's a dry read.
Dry read, yes, and because itwas never finished, it doesn't
have that finished quality.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
Well, obviously he passed away.
Tripp died in 2003 due tocomplications of AIDS and this
was basically published in arough draft form.
They did not edit or doanything else like that and they
put a couple of things in thereto kind of support.
They had a very longintroduction by Gene Baker 80
something pages.
That kind of talks about howthis work integrates into the
(31:05):
study of Lincoln and the Lincolnscholars and things like that
in this whole debate aboutLincoln sexuality.
And then you get into the meatof the book, which is divided
into several chapters and itgoes through different people
and figures and things like that.
And then there is a dissent by agentleman named Michael
Burlingame, who kind of refuteswhat Tripp says and kind of
(31:26):
shoots some holes in hisargument that Lincoln was
actually a Kinsey 2 on the scale.
And then there's also a purelypsychological perspective
written by Alice Flinnessy.
So she definitely she supportsthe idea that he was bisexual,
but she may not be as adamantabout what as CA Tripp was.
So it's an interestingdiscussion and I think that one
(31:48):
thing that you and I always talkabout is history and is
homosexual history suppressed,and that's one of the things
that I think that this book kindof brings up is that all of
these things are in front of us.
We have these letters, we havethese facts about Joshua Speed
and the relationship thatLincoln had, the fact that he
was a virgin until he marriedMary Todd Lincoln which was, by
(32:08):
the way, he was 33 years old Notvery typical of a guy Should
retain that for a while, buthistorians really didn't like
this idea.
Speaker 5 (32:16):
No, and I think that that's one of the convenient
truths of those days, and evenas recent as my grandfather's
generation.
But these are subjects that arenot talked about in polite
society, if you will.
So they might know them orsuspect them, but they don't
talk about it, and when a persondies, then it's really easy to
forget those details and letthem slip under the carpet
without anybody thinking aboutthem again, and that might be
(32:39):
what we're seeing here as well.
It's a part of his life thatpeople that knew him while he
was alive knew it, didn't reallytalk about it except in
whispers, and then when hepassed away, it just all that
stopped.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
Kind of like whitewashing, but I would call
it straightwashing.
Yes, yeah, they have made it alittle bit straighter than it
was.
Speaker 5 (32:58):
Yeah, and so that kind of gets to the question.
Maybe I'm jumping too far ahead, you know.
So arguably most people wouldagree that Lincoln was one of
the best, if not the best,presidents of our nation.
So how does this change thatconversation that this is?
Speaker 2 (33:19):
in fact true.
How does that change theconversation?
I always think, you know, wehang our hopes on people like
Pete Buttigieg as possibly beingthe first gay president, that
he might have a chance to dothat.
And then here is thishistorical kind of anomaly of
maybe there was already a gaypresident, but, let's be honest,
he didn't define himself thisway.
Nobody did back then, no.
One of the things that reallysurprised me about when we
(33:41):
watched Lincoln Lover of Mendocumentary movie is that, you
know, gay is a pretty modernconcept.
We didn't really have a way todefine it and I think that
sometimes, even in your book youtouched on that.
Like, growing up you didn'thave a sense of what gay was.
No, no, you didn't have adefinition for that.
Speaker 5 (33:59):
Even though there were elements of it around me, I
never associated myself withthose elements.
I never saw myself in that.
Yeah, you're right.
In fact, the word homosexualitself became into being after
Lincoln's presidency.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
Yeah, I mean it wasn't even recognized as
anything and it wasn't reallytalked about and it wasn't
something that Lincoln wouldhave defined himself as, Whereas
somebody like a Pete Buttigiegobviously that is his identity.
I mean, that's a part that wecannot change, but in relation
to history it's interesting tothink about these possibilities
(34:36):
that we might have a heroalready in there.
Speaker 5 (34:39):
Yeah, well too, because I think the president
that was right before Lincoln.
I don't recall his name.
Rumors are that he was as well.
He was never married, so he wasa bachelor and again, it might
be the one right before him.
It was certainly one beforeLincoln.
I don't recall his name.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
Well, and it's hard to ascribe that to people, like
we said, because we don't haveany of the facts.
I mean, they're not here to ask.
Obviously, james Buchanan wasactually the president before
Lincoln and he was the onlypresident to have been a
lifelong bachelor.
So there you go.
Maybe gay men were reallypopular during this time of
(35:18):
American history.
Speaker 5 (35:19):
Yeah, well, and again you talk about the time that
they lived in and that wouldn'thave been talked about.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
Yeah Well, it was wild to think that I mean James
Buchanan not having a first lady, you know.
Speaker 5 (35:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
That's kind of interesting because we really do
have a lot.
I think Mary Todd Lincoln ishaving a moment with O'Mary on
Broadway and a lot of peopleplaying her and a lot is being
made of her mental state duringthis time which she was book was
kind of.
Speaker 5 (35:47):
I wouldn't say it's unkind to her, but it certainly
revealed parts of her that I'venever heard before.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Well, what was interesting in the book?
In the Clarence Arthur Trippbook?
It really paints kind of anunflattering picture of her as
like an opportunist that she wasbasically marrying for power,
for money and doing these kindof like almost con artists type
things with federal money andstuff, and it was very weird.
It really reminded me a lot ofsome of the problems that we see
maybe today.
You know misappropriation ofgovernment funds and using it
(36:14):
for something else and you knowall these different kind of
strange things that seem likemodern problems but they're
really not.
Speaker 5 (36:21):
Yeah, it almost seemed like oh, we were.
We have been here before.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
Yeah, but I mean again, I've always been a fan of
the Mary Todd Lincoln storyjust because it was interesting
to me.
I think she had a lot ofchallenges and I don't think
that she also was diagnosed verywell for her psychological or
psychiatric issues back in theday and that was another thing
is back in the day we didn'thave modern, modern pharmacology
to address things likedepression or anxiety or bipolar
(36:47):
disorder or anything like that.
And it looks like as a couple,abraham and Mary Todd maybe had
some of those issues and theytalked about Lincoln having very
bad depressive issues a lot.
Speaker 5 (36:56):
Especially after that one gentleman passed away.
He was very depressed for along time.
In fact, they put him onsuicide watch and took
everything away from him that hecould commit suicide with.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Yeah, yeah.
It's amazing to look at all ofthat as a thing.
So would you recommend theIntimate World of Abraham
Lincoln as a book to read?
Speaker 5 (37:15):
Okay.
So, yes, yes, I would, but notfor entertainment purposes
because, as you said, it's adifficult read.
It does give you some insightinto the actual history Because
it was an unfinished work.
You can definitely tell thatwhen you read the book.
So if you want the information,yes, read the book.
If you want to be entertained,this might not be the book for
(37:37):
you.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
Yeah, it's a very academic book and it feels like
it's addressed at LincolnScholars.
I enjoyed it and I read thewhole thing.
I think a lot of the peoplethat we were in the book club
with they put it down after acertain point.
But I actually slogged throughthe whole thing because to me I
guess I was a history major incollege partially and I just
really kind of thought, okay,this is neat.
(37:57):
But it wasn't a history per se,it was more of a kind of
psychological essay about maybehis sexual intentions and
orientations and things likethat.
So there wasn't a lot, therewas no narrative, there was no
nothing that you could hanganything on.
Right.
So I think, but I think that ifyou're really interested in this
topic, the movie AbrahamLincoln, Lover of Men does a
(38:17):
good job of kind of taking thebook and summarizing it yeah
yeah, yeah, yeah, take themExactly.
Speaker 5 (38:24):
It follows the books, or the book pretty much.
There are some things that theyleft out, but it does then add
the opinions and talk about whatwas coming for the day.
So, yeah, if you're going toread the book, you should
actually see the show as well.
Well, it's a good reinforcement.
Speaker 2 (38:37):
Yeah, but I think if you're going to choose one over
the other and you're not goingto spend time doing both, I
would say pick the documentary.
Yeah, I agree, probably alittle bit more entertaining and
short.
Speaker 5 (38:45):
A couple hours You're done the book.
It'll take you several days.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Yeah, it's not a fast read but again an important
work and definitely one that weshould recognize.
And a big thank you to ClarenceArthur Tripp for blazing the
trail on this whole discussionand reframing the idea of the
way that the world saw AbrahamLincoln and possibly saying that
he was at least bisexual, ifnot homosexual, and that he
would have been a queer voiceback in his day and ended the
(39:13):
Civil War and freed, you know,the slaves and did all of these
amazing things and became one ofthe, you know, most influential
presidents, probably the mostinfluential president of our
time, yep, yep Of our nation'shistory, for sure, for sure.
Speaker 5 (39:26):
And it goes back to that phrase that you know, I
like so well, from the 1980s weare everywhere, not always seen,
but we are there, and this is agood illustration of that.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
Yeah, no, that's a good point.
It definitely gives you somehope and some faith that we have
been changing the world andhave been a part of the world,
and even though we probablyaren't recognized as such all
the time.
But true, we're there, allright.
Well, is that about wrap ourdiscussion on Abraham Lincoln?
Speaker 5 (39:52):
It does, capturing our history.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
Yes, all right.
Well, we'll be back next timewith something that hopefully
just as interesting.
Yeah, I'm Brett Cullum, andtoday I am joined by two women
(40:25):
working with Lion WomanProductions.
I have the director of theircurrent show, dancing Lessons,
by Mark St Germain Her name isMichelle Britton and I have
Adrienne Shearer, who she's inthe production and she's
choreographed the dancing in theshow as well.
Lion Woman Productions broughtus the phenomenal Playhouse
Creatures last year, whichshowed a dramatic vision of
(40:47):
women acting in history, and nowthis new show, dancing Lessons,
runs September 11th through the21st 2025 at the Match, and I
don't know why I felt like I hadto include the year there, but
hey, in case you are listeningto this in the future.
But thank you both for beinghere.
(41:07):
I'm so excited to talk to youabout Dancing Lessons.
Speaker 6 (41:10):
Thank you.
Thank you for having us.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
Tell me a little bit about the show this year.
What is Dancing Lessons about?
Speaker 7 (41:18):
It's about a man with Asperger's and his what I like
to say, his dogged determinationto learn to dance.
Because he has a very publicpotentially horrifying public
event coming up an awards dinnerand so he seeks out someone to
teach him to dance, and he'spegged to this former Broadway
(41:38):
dancer who, as it turns out, isnow disabled.
And so it's this.
It's beautiful, it's joyous,it's hard, because we get to
walk in his world and learn moreabout what it is to be somebody
on the spectrum who has tonavigate a world that really
(42:01):
doesn't accommodate that.
And then it's also I think thisis my tagline I think it's
about, when it comes to normal,we're all on the spectrum,
because it really is about howboth of them have these huge
struggles in their life, and Ithink I don't want to give away
(42:23):
too much, but they attempt toconnect as human beings and
there's a tremendous amount ofpower in connecting with another
human being and it can be veryhealing.
So, and it's a great, it's anice little script.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
Yeah, no, it is not at all what I was expecting,
because I just I always thoughtI'd be like shall we dance?
I mean, I thought it was maybelike that, and now you've given
me this whole idea.
It sounds much deeper and muchmore resonant, so I am glad.
And it obviously makes it sosmaller cast, this time only
three people.
Is that right?
Because I know, are you in it?
Speaker 7 (42:59):
I don't.
Yeah, adrian actually appearsin it.
I don't want to say too muchbut it's.
But you'll love it when you seeit the way we've incorporated
her expertise and her artistryand then she does have her own
theater that and professionallyhelps assess people on the
(43:19):
spectrum and also with specialneeds.
I don't need to talk too muchabout that, she can talk about
that.
But there is this beautiful I'mlosing my words here but
there's this beautiful affinityor sync between these two things
dance and the ability for danceto help heal and movement and
(43:42):
people that are on the spectrumin particular.
That's what this play is about.
She's, she, adrian, is part ofhow we've crafted this show to
show how dance can heal and be apart of healing well, adrian,
tell me a little bit about yourwork.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
Tell me about, like, what you do, and uh, yes, so I.
Speaker 6 (44:02):
I met michelle uh recently at movement workshop
and she asked if I'm a dancerand expressed she was looking
for a dancer and choreographerfor this upcoming convention.
Having no idea it was reallyfate that brought us together.
Having no idea my backgroundwith the autistic population, so
(44:23):
I have been serving theautistic population as an
adaptive arts specialist andeducator since 2014.
And in 2019, I founded AllianceTheater, which is a
neurodivergent Houston-basedtheater.
We produce issue-based showsand we serve adults primarily on
(44:45):
the autism spectrum, but wehave a little bit of everybody.
And the reason I startedAlliance is because I saw a need
for training in the arts forautistic individuals who are
incredibly talented and justneeded a platform, just needed
somebody to give them thatopportunity.
(45:08):
And when I first began my workwith the autistic population
back in 2014, it was at a littlemiddle school.
I had six middle school boysand I was well not sure what to
do.
To be honest, I wouldn't either.
I had never worked with apopulation before and I was
(45:31):
given a set of goals for eachstudent social goals that they
had to meet.
And you know, having a BA intheater, I thought, well, let's
put on a show, because I knowhow to do that.
And so magic things startedhappening.
They started really developingempathy and learning how to
express that empathy andlearning how to understand these
(45:55):
characters that they wereplaying, feeling more confident,
feeling more themselves andreally empowered.
And so we started meeting thesesocial goals through the power
of theater and dance andmovement.
And when I saw that, I washooked and I haven't looked back
since.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
So that's a testament .
I mean, the arts really aresomething a little bit more than
just entertaining people.
I think it is a lot abouthealing people and making them
more confident and willing to domore.
I mean, I think that growing upI know my parents were always
just horrified by the fact thatI was taking acting classes and
things like that.
You know, they're like you know, no, you just take accounting,
right.
But guess what I've used moreof in my life, you know?
(46:40):
So there you are Definitely oneof those.
But particularly with people onthe spectrum, I can see how it
would be very effectivetreatment and things like that,
because it is aboutcommunicating in different ways
through movement and things likethat.
That would kind of be appealingfor that.
But you've got two actors inthis.
(47:00):
You've got Katrina Ellsworthand Brad Gertz, who are two of
my favorite actors in Houston.
How did you cast this and dideither of them have any dance
experience before they came in?
Because I'm not aware of it.
Speaker 7 (47:13):
Well, I think I mean both of them move well, but
Katrina is a Pilates instructorand so there's an alignment of
some of her skills and both ofthem yeah, both of them move
well.
But it was, it was important tome to.
I wanted to give a sort of a, avery in again, I apologize my
(47:39):
words.
I wanted to go more in depth inthe rehearsal process then, so
we expanded it, we had a longerrehearsal process, we used
improv, we used lab and movementagain with my friend, jamie
Garner, who's now based inAustralia, so she did a Zoom, a
series of Zoom workshops with usand she's going to take one
more look for us.
I worked again with Deborah Hopeon intimacy and the actors have
(48:03):
expressed delight really in.
Oh, these are additional skillsI can add to my skill set
because I've always been anactor first.
So creating an actor friendlyrehearsal process is a goal for
me.
I don't know everything right,but this has been a particular,
it's been a creative highlightin my life.
Gotta say the the collaboratorsI have and I do.
(48:28):
I know brad and katrinapersonally and I love their work
.
I didn't, I did hold auditionsand and they ended up being, I
thought, the best match andactually you know if, if for one
reason or another they couldn'thave worked out, there were
other great people that I couldhave cast.
Yeah, always.
(48:48):
It's not just about what theydeliver on stage, it's how they
are, how they behaveprofessionally, the grace that
they allow when stuff you know,some cue goes wrong or we have
to start over yet again on alight thing.
They're just very, theyunderstand the process and
they're with you Really, which,I feel, all of the designers and
(49:09):
the creative artists on thisproject.
They signed on and they haveautomatically brought their
passion and their expertise andit's been a true collaboration,
because whatever I envisioned inmy head has changed
substantively, not in the visionbut in how it's realized.
And that is to the.
(49:30):
I'm very grateful for thehumbleness to be open to these
incredible voices that aresaying, hey, what if we did it
this way?
They get it.
They understand where I want togo with the show.
Adrienne God.
All I had to do was describeWell, I'm thinking something,
something, and a lot of it wastryout, because what she is
doing in the show is kind of atakeoff of what's in the show.
(49:57):
We haven't changed any dialogueor anything, but she really is
realizing some emotionalsituations for us and, like I
said, helping us understand thepower of dance to connect you to
another human being, and Iwould just give her like a
suggestion or say, well, it'skind of like this, and then
she'd come back with thisamazing like wow, that's really
(50:20):
good.
You know you get it.
So yeah, it's been easy.
It's like you can order art.
Speaker 6 (50:34):
It's delivered to you by this powerful, powerful
woman.
So, yeah, it's been a reallygood collaboration.
Thank you, michelle.
Yes, For me, it's really been awonderful experience.
For me.
I haven't been on stage since2018 because I've been so
devoted with you know, runningthings over at Alliance, so it
was so nice to have you come tome with this project, especially
(50:54):
concerning a subject I'm sovery passionate about, and one
of the things that I've lovedabout the experience is how open
you are as a director, tocollaboration and just thinking
so outside the box and willingto try several different things
and experiment in different ways, and the rest of the crew has
(51:15):
been that way as well.
So gracious, very humble, andit's just been a wonderful
experience, yeah that's gosh.
Speaker 7 (51:25):
I really, I almost look forward to.
You know, in the rehearsalprocess there were times where
we, where there still are acouple of gaps where, hmm, this
isn't happening, how do we solveit?
And that's the stuff that I'mreally enjoying the most is
those big question marks.
Oh, this isn't working like wethought it would.
What are we going to do?
And because I know I've gotlike eight brains that are going
(51:47):
to come together and solve it.
And it's fascinating and itgets solved.
It gets solved and it getsrealized in a better way.
So the creative process I justBrett, if you haven't had a
chance to be on stage in a while, you know that's wonderful,
it's a wonderful opportunity andit's not always like that, but
(52:07):
it really is a hallmark of thebrand I want to bring with Lion
Woman is we make it actorfriendly and we make it about
people first.
So every time I come back tothat it helps inform me about a
particular decision here, thereor yonder.
And you know you can't do it all, but it's.
(52:29):
I do think that's a nicheSometimes.
People, it goes without sayingwe want to treat you fairly and
all this kind of stuff.
I do think it's kind of a nicheidea to say, no, I'm really not
interested in doing theaterjust for the sake of theater.
I really want it to be a kindpeople-first experience and I
want the audience to walk awayhopefully just feeling great
(52:55):
about the show they just saw andreally opening their hearts,
maybe a little bit more.
And this show is definitely for, I would say, neurotypical
people.
It's to give you some.
I mean, of course, everybody'swelcome, but it really is a walk
that most of us do not take.
So you get to find out a lotmore and we've made it a bit
(53:16):
experiential.
We've made it experiential forthe audience in a good way.
Speaker 2 (53:22):
Well, I'm looking forward to it.
Obviously, September 11ththrough the 21st at the match.
Which match auditorium are youin?
One this okay, so match box onesmall space yes but this is the
intimate space and it's great,and they have good air
conditioning, especially thistime of year.
Speaker 7 (53:38):
Oh my gosh, yeah and a jewel, just a jewel of a set,
so oh oh, yeah, you do.
Speaker 2 (53:44):
You always have great sets, yeah, so, and obviously
Lion Woman Productions, and youdo one show a year right now.
Is that right oh?
Speaker 7 (53:52):
that's.
That's what we're able to do,yeah.
Speaker 2 (53:54):
OK, all right, so I will.
Speaker 7 (53:56):
It's always associated with community
outreach.
That's another part of themission is to align that, so we
do.
Last time for PlayhouseFeatures, we did three different
events.
Speaker 2 (54:09):
I remember.
Speaker 7 (54:10):
Yeah, and this time we have two plus.
We haven't been able to work itout yet, but I'd like to be a
part of a fundraiser where wecould collaborate for Alliance
Theater.
So there would be three again,three community.
Speaker 2 (54:24):
All right.
Well, awesome, well, thank youboth so much.
I appreciate you taking thetime to talk about dancing
lessons, and I will be therethis week.
Speaker 7 (54:36):
Hey, we look forward to seeing you.
Yeah, yeah, we'll hoist a glass.
Speaker 2 (54:57):
Oh yes, we will definitely do that.
Oh yes, we will definitely dothat.
The Marriott Marquis indowntown Houston on Walker
Street.
You can get tickets through theMontreux Center's website,
located easily enough atmontreuxcenterorg.
The event is on October 4th andstarts at 7 pm.
It will honor Brad Pritchettand Atlantis Narcisse.
(55:18):
If you are interested inClarence Arthur Tripp's book, it
is called the Intimate World ofAbraham Lincoln.
You can find that anywherebooks are sold.
Lincoln Lover of Men is adocumentary it was made in 2024,
and it is available throughstreaming outlets like Amazon or
Apple.
We also talked about dancinglessons in this episode and that
(55:40):
runs through September 21st atthe Match in Midtown.
Lion Woman Productions presentsit and tickets are available at
the Match website or throughthe Lion Woman Productions site.
Do not forget this weekend.
The Flux Houston Pool Partywill be held on September 20th
at the Heights House Hotel thatis on Cavalcade Street and will
(56:03):
start at noon.
It is free to attend, butdefinitely register with Flux
Houston.
Look for them on Instagram.
The Montrose Country Club isgoing to be the site for a
fundraiser for Cubbies, an LGBTQsoftball team.
That will happen on Saturdayfrom 3 pm until 6 pm at the
Montrose Country Club.
Now, if you are a ballet fan,out at.
(56:23):
The Ballet will be held onSeptember 26th.
Thank you for listening toQueer Voices.
We will be back next week.
Speaker 1 (56:44):
This has been Queer Voices, heard on KPFT Houston
and as a podcast available fromseveral podcasting sources.
Check our webpageQueerVoicesorg for more
information.
Queer Voices executive produceris Brian Levinka, deborah
Moncrief-Bell is co-producer,brett Cullum and David
(57:08):
Mendoza-Druzman are contributors.
The News Wrap segment is partof another podcast called this
Way Out, which is produced inLos Angeles.
Speaker 4 (57:19):
Some of the material in this program has been edited
to improve clarity and runtime.
This program does not endorseany political views or animal
species.
Views, opinions andendorsements are those of the
participants and theorganizations they represent.
In case of death, pleasediscontinue use and discard
remaining products.
Speaker 1 (57:31):
For Queer Voices.
I'm Glenn Holt, Thank you.
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