This week, we have two interviews with Atlantis Narcisse, a trailblazing force in Houston's LGBTQ+ community whose journey spans decades of service, advocacy, and community building. From organizing HIV testing sessions in her living room during the 1990s epidemic to founding multiple organizations supporting transgender individuals of color, Atlantis embodies the spirit of compassionate leadership and resilient advocacy. We are running two recent interviews with her, because she is being honored at the OUT FOR GOOD benefit on October 4th. You can get tickets through the Montrose Center Website.
As founder and CEO of Save Our Sisters United, Atlantis created a lifeline for transgender women seeking safe healthcare alternatives to dangerous "street hormones." Her home, lovingly called the House of Capri, became a sanctuary where LGBTQ+ individuals rejected by their birth families could find genuine acceptance. "To be that house mother was to help take care of your real life," Atlantis explains, "not your club life, not anything else but your real life, and to see you as a person and empower you."
More information on OUT FOR GOOD can be found at:
https://montrosecenter.org/event/out-for-good-2025/
The segment following our spotlight on Atlantis is about the Upstairs Lounge arson attack that happened in 1973. 32 people died, and it remained the largest and deadliest attack on a queer space until Pulse in Orlando. Brett Cullum and Lee Ingalls discuss that history.
Finally, we talk with Michael Locher, who is over technical design at the ALLEY THEATRE. He takes us behind the scenes at THE DA VINCI CODE, which is running at the ALLEY THEATRE into October. Tickets for that performance can be found at the Alley's website, and if you want to attend the LGBTQ+ night, it is called OUT AT THE ALLEY. Here is a link.
https://www.alleytheatre.org/shows-and-events/actout/
Queer Voices airs in Houston Texas on 90.1FM KPFT and is heard as a podcast here. Queer Voices hopes to entertain as well as illuminate LGBTQ issues in Houston and beyond. Check out our socials at:
https://www.facebook.com/QueerVoicesKPFT/ and
https://www.instagram.com/queervoices90.1kpft/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is KPFT 90.1 FM Houston, 89.5 FM Galveston, 91.9
FM Huntsville, and worldwide onthe internet at kpftorg.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
This is Deborah Moncrief-Bell and I'm speaking
with Atlantis Narcisse, who'sthe founder and CEO of Save Our
Sisters United, director ofprograms for the Transgender
Education Network of Texas anddeputy director with Les Rock.
She's worked for the MontroseCenter, the legacy community
health in the city of Houston,bridging the gap between
community and needed servicessince the early 1990s, during
the years of the HIV epidemic.
Atlantis was known fororganizing accessible and
stigma-free HIV STD testing,whether it was from her living
(01:01):
room to partnering with localclinics.
You began your journey decadesago as a house mother who held
space for people who needed acomfortable, judgment-free
environment for medical aid.
This house, the Atlantis Birth,was created to close the
familial gap that many membersof the LGBTQ plus community
(01:25):
experience with respect to theirbirth or legal families, and is
lovingly called the house ofCapri.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
A house mother.
For me, a house mother is to bethere to fill in gaps, as you
mentioned, but also to add thislayer of support, of nourishing,
empowering and uplifting people.
Like a lot of times, peopledon't realize that when we enter
into this community, sometimesour birth families are left
behind and you're looking for aplace to belong that collective.
(01:54):
So for me, to be that housemother was to help take care of
your real life, not your clublife, not anything else but your
real life and to see you as aperson and empower you.
So that's my definition for ahouse mother.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
For me, Explain what Save Our Sisters United is.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Save Our Sisters United is actually a brainchild,
a birth from my heart.
What people don't realize wasthat I was really part of a
support system that helpednavigate trans women to getting
healthy HRTs to remove them fromusing street moans, to getting
them in doctor's care.
So what I started seeing wasthat a lot of people kept
(02:32):
reaching out to me after I wouldleave the club and I was like,
what happens if I'm not here?
So the SOS was supposed to belike this call to action see our
strengths, shed our shame andall these types of things.
So SOSU started with the transwomen of color and then we
eventually started SOSU, whichis the umbrella which SOS lives
(02:52):
up under, as well as SOSB, whichis for trans men, transcending
Gaming, which is a social eventfor the community to come in and
socialize and build community.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
What does being nominated for Grand Marshal mean
to you?
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Thanks for seeing me.
A lot of times we are doing thework and people don't see us
and they only see our body ofwork and not the body that does
the work.
So for me to be seen in Houston, texas, as a Black trans woman
over 50 plus, it is phenomenal,it is heartwarming.
It also makes me realize thatI'm not forgotten, if that makes
(03:26):
sense, that I still have sometype of presence within our
community.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
What is your past experience with pride?
And you are a native Houstonianand you got your degree in
sociology at TSU.
You are representing in so manylevels.
Do you think that pride isrelevant?
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Oh God, yes, definitely, I definitely feel
like pride is relevant.
I think anything that shows thediverse and our expressions of
our queerness is relevant.
Hearing pride and knowing itsexistence has made me feel like
I am relevant, that we areseeing, that the city of Houston
sees us, that the nation seesus, because there are prides all
across the nation.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
The theme is you won't break our pride.
What does that mean for you?
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Especially after the year we have had as trans people
.
You won't break us.
I think that means that nomatter what you say, what you do
, we are resilient.
We are not going anywhere.
Though you may take thesesuperficial attacks at us, we
are stronger and we are evenstronger together.
Not breaking us, meaning thatwe are our own joy.
You don't get to govern that.
(04:30):
Not bending us and tearing usdown, because we uplift and
empower each other.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
This is Deborah Moncriek-Bell, and I'm talking
with Atlantis.
Narcisse, what would you say?
Speaker 3 (04:41):
your number one achievement in the community is
I have really believed that mynumber one contributor is
uplifting the narratives ofBlack trans women here in
Houston.
As many people may know, it wasthree Black trans women that
really started the narrative ofBlack trans women here in
Houston Myself, deedee andMonica and I'm the only one left
in Houston right now.
(05:01):
So I am glad that Black voices,especially those of Black trans
bodies, are being heard, thosenarratives are being seen, and
the importance of why narrativesneed to be expressed and heard
and taken care of.
So, yes, I feel like me justbeing present, creating it,
doing the work that I have doneis the most valuable thing I
could have ever done, because westarted the conversation.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Tell me who Dee Dee is and who about Monica.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
Monica Roberts.
I have been having so manyconversations about Monica.
Monica was really the pushbehind getting narratives out
there about trans murders aswell as anything that was
anti-trans.
She was a beast when it came tothe political arena, which I am
not, so thank you, monica, forholding that down.
Indeed, he was definitelyanother beast for on-ground
(05:50):
advocacy for trans people, aswell as going into places like
healthcare city of Houstonhealthcare departments to battle
for us to be able to use thebathroom.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Yes, unfortunately we lost Monica several years ago,
monica Roberts, who was indeed aforce of nature.
We do miss those that aren'twith us, but they also gave us
inspiration to carry on.
Is there anything that I comingtoward?
Queerness is not a me agenda.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
It's a we agenda, and that we are stronger together,
as we have always shown inhistory and we will continue to
show that, and that we are allpowerful in our own spaces and
we're all each grand marshals insomebody's eyes.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Thank you for being with us on Queer Voices.
Speaker 4 (06:42):
Thank you for listening to Queer Voices on
KPFT or wherever you get yourpodcasts.
I'm Davis Mendoza-Druzman heretoday with an exciting interview
with community leaders AtlantisNarcissus, founder of Save Our
Sisters United Inc, aHouston-based nonprofit
dedicated to empowering,connecting and mobilizing trans
people of color, and founder andco-chair of Queens of Houston.
(07:02):
That's Queer Unified Emergencyand Empowerment Network of
Houston, a brand newcommunity-based coalition with
local LGBTQ plus orgs like theMontrose Center, montrose Grace
Place, hpd's LGBTQ pluscommunity liaison and, of course
, save Our Sisters United Incand more.
Hey Alanis.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
Hey Davis, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
We're also joined by our third fellow Queens of
Houston co-chair, austin DavisRuiz, who is also president of
the Houston LGBTQ Plus PoliticalCaucus, the oldest LGBTQIA plus
civil rights organization inthe South.
Welcome back to Queer Voices.
Speaker 5 (07:36):
Austin.
Thanks so much for giving methis opportunity, davis, good to
be back.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
So glad to have y'all on Now this isn't either of
y'all's first time on QueerVoices Atlantis through your
Houston Pride 365 Pride GrandMarshal nomination, and Austin
through your work with HoustonLGBTQ Plus Political Caucus, but
this is y'all's first time heretalking about Queens of Houston
.
So Atlantis I mentioned earlierthat Queens of Houston stands
(08:03):
for Queer Unified Emergency andEmpowerment Network of Houston.
But could you tell me a littlebit about the history, how it
came about, why y'all believethat this is necessary and what
the work looks like?
Speaker 3 (08:16):
Sure, Thanks, davis.
Queens of Houston came out ofthe evolution of Rain in
Paradise.
So, as you know, texas haslived sometimes with trans
murders and sadly here inHouston we have seen two this
year.
And with those we startednoticing that the way that we
were responding was so siloed.
We weren't responding as acommunity, it was only Black
(08:39):
trans people responding.
When trans people were beingkilled, when it was a Latinx
trans person, it was only theLatin community and it just did
not spell community to me.
I started seeing that there weresome spots where we could be a
little bit more cohesive andstand as a community and that
sometimes the separation was outof respect in a sense.
(08:59):
So it was a double-edged sword.
I wanted to be able to removethat double-edged sword and
bring more community into thisfight.
For us, this is not a me fight,this is a we fight and, as we
know, many trans people havestood up in front lines for
everybody's rights.
So why can we not do thattogether as a community?
As far as how we navigate in thework that goes through that, we
(09:23):
act like a supplement supportfor families when their loved
member has been taken awayviolently.
We help navigate them throughour community to get the
information that they need.
We help battle misinformation,as we know, a lot of times on
the social media.
It could be a good thing, butit also could be a bad thing.
So battling and misinformationand having one voice, one
(09:45):
message, shows the cohesivenessof the community as well, and
it's not just about, like,violent crimes, it's also
natural disasters, any need thatthe LGBT community needs.
We are there as Queens ofHouston to be there, to respond
and to help navigate thesituation.
So many times we have liaisonscoming from community orgs, from
(10:07):
our allies.
Why do we not have liaisons andspace for us to stand up for
our community?
Speaker 4 (10:14):
Thank you, Atlantis, Austin.
Atlantis touched on communitycohesiveness and bringing
community together, and you arevery prevalent in the community,
both with the Houston LGBTQplus political caucus but also
the Harris County Commissioner'sCourt.
You work with Precinct 4, butalso with the LGBTQ plus
advisory board there.
But could you tell me moreabout this need for a unified
(10:38):
voice, a unified message?
Speaker 5 (10:39):
Of course.
So when we think of all of thetragedies that Atlantis just
touched upon right, when wethink about community being
killed because of anti-transviolence, when we think about
natural kind of Houston, harrisCounty, a lot of times LGBTQIA
(11:06):
plus people are really left outof those kind of traditional
social support systems.
So when we think about disasterresponse coming from Harris
County or from the city ofHouston, it's typically not
thought of through the lens ofan LGBTQIA plus community or
even just looking at the lens ofhow can we best serve the
(11:27):
marginalized right or even thehyper marginalized, those
communities.
And so that's really where thisneed for Queens Houston kind of
came from.
And that's why our mission isto proactively support and
empower LGBTQIA plusorganizations to ensure
effective, inclusive andequitable emergency and crisis
response strategies for thecommunity, with a focus on the
(11:50):
hyper-marginalized.
And so really we are trying todo the work of creating this
social support system, creatingthis empowerment network, as we
call it, to be able to take careof our own in the face of
whatever disaster, tragedy kindof strikes.
Right, glen has definitelytouched upon the kind of unified
response in the face ofanti-trans violence, of which,
(12:11):
unfortunately, there were twomurders this year, but also
looking at how can we take careof our community when there is
another hurricane or whenthere's another natural disaster
.
A lot of times community doesn'tnecessarily feel safe seeking
services from the city ofHouston or from Harris County,
or they may not even knownecessarily where to go right
(12:34):
and our elected officials maynot realize that our community
members need this kind ofspecific care and attention.
And so that's really where Ithink a lot of this work is kind
of born from this need of ourcommunity to take care of
attention.
And so that's really where Ithink a lot of this work is is
kind of born from this need ofour community to take care of us
.
And this is something thatwe've done historically right.
When we're looking at the HIVAIDS crisis, right, it was our
(12:55):
community mostly lesbian womenright that took care of gay men
during this kind of epidemic,right.
Even looking at the most recentImpox health crisis, right, our
community really was the onekind of leading the effort to
one push vaccinations for thecommunity, for people to get
vaccinated that could, but thenalso really fighting.
(13:15):
I personally did this.
I spoke at city council, Ispoke at commissioner's court
advocating for expandedvaccination guidelines to allow
more of our community members tobe able to get vaccinated
against mpox, and so, looking atour history, this is something
that we're extremely familiarwith.
It's something that we'vealways done, and so, really,
this is not something new for usto do, but it is new
(13:37):
specifically within the space ofHouston and Harris County.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
One thing would be identifying and navigating
people to resources.
As Austin mentioned a lot oftimes, we're not in that thought
plan, right.
So by us being in these spacesand reaching out to other
organizations hey, whatresources do you have, how do
you go there?
The goal is and also tellingthem what we need.
(14:01):
I think a lot of times whenpeople think about Houston's
LGBT community, they think aboutMontrose and all that.
But we're no longer in thegayborhood, we're all around
Houston.
So the need is bigger and it'smore stretched.
The resources have to be inthose spaces.
So, queens of Houston, our goalis to help people get in those
(14:22):
spaces.
Our goal is to help to provideemergency kits, hurricane
preparation kits and all thosethings.
It's hard to just say one thing,because each need is unique for
different spaces.
Not everybody may need ahurricane kit.
Maybe someone just needs aspace to cool off and be able to
access the internet, you know.
So I think that it sounds likean easy answer, but sometimes
(14:45):
it's not an easy answer.
But I will say the easieranswer for this is just take
care of the human body.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
And Atlantis.
I'd also like to ask about theprocess of supporting victims
family members, and youmentioned vigils, so could you
kind of walk us through whathappens immediately after a
(15:15):
murder is reported and HPD ismade aware, what happens step by
step.
What happens from there?
Speaker 3 (15:23):
Sure, no problem.
So normally it would just bepeople jumping on the mic.
But this year we decided tochange the process.
Now when a person has been,when a trans individual or a
community member has been takenaway from us, first thing I do
is connect with our HPD liaison.
They give me their informationwhat's going on?
(15:43):
Sometimes I may have to helpidentify the body or the
individual, but then from therewe normally would just start
posting about it.
But this time we're being alittle bit more strategic and
taking back some of our powerand our assets.
So now when we do that, we talkwith our community members, ie
Queens of Houston.
What's going on here, thelogistics, here's the plan, and
(16:06):
from there we make our plan.
And until HPD has said it'sokay to release the information,
we sit on the information.
But, as I said, social mediacould be a double-edged sword
and sometimes when we get onthere and we run wild with
information, we're not realizingthat the person who committed
the crime may be watching socialmedia also and learning how to
(16:27):
avoid us and avoid spaces wherethey could be taken into custody
, right.
So from that we will sit andmake.
We have to block out time formedia to speak with us.
Only At this time, on this day.
This is the only time to speakwith us.
Then we will start planning thevisual.
But what we ask of the media isthat they, as much as they're
(16:50):
recording and want access to ourbad information, that they also
support our good information.
Celebrate us when we're doinggood things, like Black Trans
Empowerment Week or thelaunching of Queens of Houston
anything that's positive in LGBTHouston's LGBT community.
We need to start highlightingthat.
We don't always need to besupporting messages of trauma.
(17:13):
So from there we would do thevisual.
We ask the news people not to,or media not to interview people
at that moment.
Let that space be a visual.
But in the midst of doing that,we are speaking to the family
or we have a person that is aliaison to the family.
What people don't realize isthat this family has lost a
member of their family that theylove, regardless of how we may
(17:36):
see them as our chosen family.
The biological family has therights unless somebody, unless
that person has put it in theirwill or written it up for us to
have access to take first stand.
But other than that, we workwith navigating the family, make
sure they're OK with the visualand this and that.
Yes, we may want to celebratethem, but we have to be
(17:57):
respectful of the family as wellas the individual.
We can still celebrate peopleand not be disrespectful, Right,
They'll celebrate people andnot be disrespectful, right, and
a lot of times, these familymembers maybe just the first
time ever interacting withsomebody outside of their
individual family member.
So from that, we do the visual,we navigate that, we call out
media if they're misgendering,if they're not doing this.
(18:19):
But here's the thing about this, Davis, I want to say that
there is a perfect plan.
Traditionally that we say wewalk this way.
The goal wasn't to develop aperfect plan.
The goal was to develop ahumane plan, Right, that was
really respectful of the humanlife that was taken away,
especially that of a LGBT memberin Houston, and to highlight
(18:42):
that these are going on a numberof times and most times we do
not catch the person or catchanyone that is connected with
the crime.
But I am happy to say, withinthe past two situations that we
have had this year, we have hadsome arrests done.
Speaker 5 (18:58):
I think sometimes as community, whenever we are faced
with a tragedy, our gutinstinct, our response is to
jump on social media and tostart posting about it, to start
talking about the person thatwas murdered, killed, assaulted,
whatever it may be Right,before really HPD or the
sheriff's office or whatever lawenforcement agency has been
(19:20):
able to take the time to reallydo their due diligence to
understand the situation right.
We've seen situations in thepast, specifically in Houston,
where there has been rumors orthere has been misinformation
about the LGBTQIA plus identityof a person and specifically I
remember this was an instancewith the shooter at Lakewood and
(19:43):
there was a lot of rumors goingaround on social media that
this person was trans.
People started posting about it, started running with it,
ultimately turned out not to betrue, right, and so I think the
the importance here is that whenwe are faced with tragedy in
our community, we understandthat people want to uplift that
person that was taken from ourcommunity, that people want to
(20:04):
uplift that person that wastaken from our community, that
people want to tell their story,but we also have to understand
that we need law enforcementtime to be able to really do
their due diligence inidentifying the victim and
seeing if there is anypossibility of catching the
perpetrator, finding evidenceright.
Speaker 6 (20:22):
You're listening to Queer Voices on 90.1 KPFT, and
this is Brett, and I'm joined bymy husband, lee Ingalls.
We host a podcast that isseparate from this one called
the Prairie Rainbow Review, andthis segment is actually an
episode that we did about theupstairs lounge fire.
Speaker 7 (20:41):
Right, which took place in June of 1970, just two
months before I moved to BatonRouge.
So I remember it kind of,although, as you'll hear in the
episode, it wasn't well talkedabout or the newspaper media did
not share much about it at all.
Yeah, yeah.
So, from my perspective, Ithink capturing our history,
remembering our history andtimestamp, some of these things
(21:05):
is important, that we do that,not just for today, but going
forward, and that's what thisepisode is about and you kind of
have a real interest in history, you really bring that to the
table a lot.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I mean, it's grounded inwho I am as a person.
My whole family have told theirstories through books and other
media as well.
So, yes, it's very important.
Speaker 6 (21:24):
Well, spoiler alert, your last name is Ingalls.
Yeah, yeah so, laura IngallsWilder.
There you go.
Yeah, little House on thePrairie, but the upstairs lounge
fire was interesting because itwas probably the worst
casualties in a gay club upuntil the Pulse shootings in
Orlando, yep, so yeah, yeah that, and you know, as time went on
(21:44):
and you read about it, thedetails of what actually took
place changed.
Speaker 7 (21:47):
So I, you know, looked it up very early on and
what took place at that periodof time was just horrific.
And the fact that the fire tookplace at all and then it lasted
for several days, and thenfamily members not wanting to
claim their their deceased lovedones, it was not good.
Speaker 6 (22:05):
Well, one of the reasons I wanted to bring this
to the Queer Voices audience isthat we are entering a time when
violence is becoming just likeeverywhere.
It seems like we are not assafe in our spaces anymore, and
the upstairs lounge can reallyteach us a lot about safety and
going to a club and recognizing.
How do you get out, what do youneed to look at?
(22:25):
What safety concerns do youhave?
Speaker 7 (22:27):
Yeah, Well, you know, every time that I go into a
space, I always look for whereare the exits and how do I get
there?
Speaker 6 (22:32):
Yes, absolutely, and that's one of the things that I
think made this tragedy sounique is they really had no way
to get out.
They didn't, yeah, I guess backthen they probably didn't
enforce the safety code that wehave today.
They didn't yeah, because backthen they probably didn't
enforce the safety code that wehave today.
But always look, always know,definitely.
So with that, please enjoy oursegment on the upstairs fire, or
(22:53):
Would enjoy being a good word,I think.
Learn something from thehistory.
Yes.
Speaker 7 (22:58):
Capturing history.
Speaker 4 (23:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (23:00):
Hi everyone, thank you for joining us.
Today.
We're going to talk about apiece of our history that
doesn't often get talked about,and if you know me, you know
capturing history, capturing thesense of a period of time, is
very important, very important.
(23:22):
This one on June 24th of 1973,there was a fire at a bar in New
Orleans at the upstairs loungeis what the bar was called.
This happened two months beforeI moved to Baton Rouge, so I
remember hearing about thisstory, but it surprised me even
at the time at the lack of newscoverage that it actually got.
During that fire, there were 32people that lost their lives
and another 15 that were injured, and the details of the fire
(23:45):
are as bad as you can imagine.
Yeah, do you want to go oversome of those details?
Speaker 6 (23:49):
Well, they aren't totally sure of how the events
transpired because obviouslyit's an unsolved case.
Right, their main suspect,roger Dale Nunez.
He was thrown out of the barearlier that day and he
supposedly set fire to the bar.
He obviously went to Walgreensand bought some lighter fluid
and he lit the front entrance onfire, but he later claimed that
(24:12):
he didn't think it would go upas fast as it did, right.
So but he was never convicted ofit and I think that they didn't
know.
He tried to talk to him and hehad some kind of jaw problem.
There was all this weird stuff.
It really spoke to the factthat they didn't really
prosecute anybody orinvestigated it very hard.
It was a very strange kind ofoccurrence, but it held the
(24:36):
record of the deadliest attackon a gay club in US history
until, of course, 2016, with theOrlando nightclub shooting at
Pulse.
So it's one of those thatshould have gotten a lot more
coverage than it did.
But because it happened in 1973, I think people didn't quite
cover it as much.
I think even the mayor at thetime really didn't, until he was
pressed Right right, right,yeah, and the details of it are
(24:58):
kind of horrific.
Speaker 7 (24:58):
So, as you said, that gentleman, they suspect did
start.
It was kicked out of the barearlier in the day and from what
I understand in reading it andkeep in mind, I've followed this
over the years, so the detailsof what actually happened even
now continue to change.
So the way that it wasinitially reported was the bar
apparently had a locked door,that you had to ring a bell and
(25:20):
somebody had to let you in.
You couldn't just walk up tothe bar, which was located on
the second floor, and get in.
You had to be let in.
So this person put theaccelerant on the steps, rang
the bell and when somebody cameto let him in, the staircase was
already on fire.
When they opened the door, thefire burst into the bar itself.
There was a back door andapparently that person that
(25:42):
opened the door initiallygathered about 20 people and
they were able to get out thatback door, but somehow when they
got out the door they locked itand the people that were left
in weren't able to get out thatdoor.
So the people the 20 peopleescaped using getting to a roof
on a building next door.
The rest of them were trappedand there were bars on the
windows, so they weren't able toget out the window either, and
(26:04):
there was at least one personthat was stuck in the window.
You could tell that they weretrying to get out, but they died
there in the window, andinitial reports of that said
that he was there for days andvisible to the people in the
street for days.
But now if you read about it,they're saying it was hours.
So you know, I don't know wherethe truth in that actually lies
(26:25):
, but I mean, it doesn't matterHours or days.
It's still a horrific thing tohave happen and to have happened
to your legacy.
Yeah, I mean, that's what tookplace.
Speaker 6 (26:35):
Yeah, it was a lot to take in and a lot of stuff that
happened and it sounds justhorrific to even think about and
more horrific in that nobodyreally paid a lot of attention
because it was a gay bar, I mean, and that's just the time that
they were in, right?
Speaker 7 (26:50):
Nobody really cared, and so the you know, the markers
of the time are one you'reright, it was a gay bar, so
nobody was really that concernedabout it.
It didn't hit the front pagethe way that it should have.
And another one that justreally speaks to where we were
as a society.
Some of the family members ofthose victims didn't even want
to claim their relative.
They wanted to let the citymanage the burying their family
(27:16):
member.
Speaker 6 (27:16):
Burying their family member, which is just to me
remarkable, but that's the wayit was then One of the things
that's kind of interesting is ithas a lot of connections to the
Metropolitan Community ChurchMost people call them MCC.
A lot of their congregants werethere that night and this was
like the third arson attack onMCC.
There was one at theirheadquarters in Los Angeles in
(27:38):
1973.
There was another one inNashville Didn't have any
injuries, thankfully, but it diddestroy the church and its
furnishings and things like that.
That was also in 73.
So this was kind of a thirdarson attack basically against
this church, which was typicallyaccepting of gay members, right
.
So I mean, it was definitelyone of those things where you
(27:59):
kind of think about it in alarger scale, although it sounds
like, if we go with the storythat they're giving, it sounded
like it was just a disgruntledperson who had been thrown out,
right right and had some kind ofweird mental lapse or something
, and right that's.
And then the horrible thing isobviously gay bars were designed
not to be very easilyaccessible.
Obviously, yeah, and theywanted to keep people out
accessible.
Obviously yeah, and they wantedto keep people out.
(28:19):
So obviously the the locking ofthe doors and the bars on the
windows and things like thatthey were to protect the people
inside, but they didn't thinkthey would trap them inside.
I mean, I think that's what thehorrible part of it is, and it
happened about eight o'clock atnight on that day.
So that was, uh, one of thethings.
That's hard to believe that itwas that early in the evening as
well.
Speaker 7 (28:40):
Yeah, and it's, you know, like many times or many
events like this.
It's kind of a series of eventsthat lead up to how, just how
bad it was.
The fire department wasn't thatfar away.
I can think of block or two,because it was in the New
Orleans French Quarter.
The parking and sidewalks andeverything were crowded, crowded
.
Speaker 6 (28:58):
They weren't able to get to it as quickly as they
otherwise would have been ableto, so that was a factor that
played into you know how quicklyand horribly it went well, it's
like some of the churchesrefused to hold funerals for the
victims, yeah, and that was abig, a big deal as well, and it
kind of reminds me of kind ofwhat's to come with the AIDS
(29:20):
epidemic.
There was definitely a lot ofthat where churches didn't
necessarily leap forward to holdservices there either.
This one was definitely one ofthose serious moments in time
where they did that as well,right right.
Speaker 7 (29:34):
So you had two situations there.
Some of them refused to holdthe services.
Those that did held theservices, but they also were
bombarded with hate mailafterwards and the people that
went to those services comingand going through a side door so
(29:59):
that they couldn't be orwouldn't be photographed going
to the service.
But and now they're they'resaying that that that was one of
the markers of the time, asthey refused to do that and use
the front entrance, kind ofsaying we're no longer doing
this, we are no longer ashamedof this.
Speaker 6 (30:13):
Yeah, yeah, it's hard to believe that that would be
something that would would.
Something that would happenSeems crazy, and some of the
victims were never identifieduntil much later.
I mean, it sounds like theyweren't even identified until
maybe 2018, as recently as thatRight.
Speaker 7 (30:30):
There's still two, I think, that have not been
identified, but initially therewas three, and I think there was
one that was identified in 2018, as you said, it's amazing to
think that you can justdisappear and nobody know, or
anything like that.
Speaker 6 (30:42):
That seems just crazy to me.
Speaker 7 (30:45):
It does to me too, and that kind of gets to this
thing that you've heard me sayso often is that people try to
erase your history.
And not claiming your familymember or not saying my brother
lived in New Orleans andsuddenly, as of that date, I
haven't heard from him sincethen, is just remarkable to me.
(31:06):
You know, I was a young man, Iwas an adult at that time.
So, as I said, I do remember itsomewhat.
The details of it have changedover the years, but back in
those days I mean I was kind ofI had found our community and I
was kind of an in-your-face kindof guy.
I was not shy about being gay,and those that shied away from
it to me were the oldergeneration, those that grew up
(31:29):
in the bars being raided andhaving their photos posted in
the newspaper and their namesand losing their jobs.
That was a generation before meand I knew that.
So I was a little bit moredefined than what these people
were.
Speaker 6 (31:45):
Well, it sounds like there weren't any protests, if
I'm right.
I mean, it sounds like the gayreporters went after the mayor
for not really talking about theangle that it was gay and
things like that, but it doesn'tsound like that.
Anybody like rose up andprotested in the streets.
Speaker 7 (31:59):
Oh no, cause it wasn't really a hate crime like
we see today.
Speaker 6 (32:02):
Yeah, it was just kind of a tragedy but I think
it's a tragedy that all thesepeople didn't get claimed or
identified, or and that theyreally didn't pursue the
investigation all that hard.
Speaker 7 (32:13):
That's the saddest part of the whole thing is the
you know the world was willingto turn their back on them and
act as though it didn't happenand they don't matter.
That was the saddest part.
Speaker 6 (32:24):
It's interesting the building hasn't changed owners.
It actually now is a businessoffice and there's also a
kitchen for a lounge called theJumaane Lounge, which was
established a little bit beforethis incident and I think they
were established in 71.
And obviously the owneractually witnessed the fire in
(32:45):
its aftermath.
I mean, obviously it just seemscrazy.
It was a third floor, was ownedby the upstairs lounge and they
said that it remains unused andpartially damaged.
If they kept it that way, it'scrazy.
Yeah, that sounds like kind ofa wild history of the building
that it still kind of has alittle bit of the scars of all
of that from that far back thismany years later.
Yeah, yeah, they did celebratethe well not celebrate mark the
(33:10):
25th anniversary with theMetropolitan Community Church in
1998, and they held a serviceto commemorate the deaths and
the Orson and things like that.
Speaker 7 (33:19):
And they've done a couple of things since then.
Yeah, in 2003, they placed thememorial plaque on the sidewalk
in front of the building, andthen there is a documentary
that's out.
A webpage is dedicated to it.
I've posted that on my socialmedia pages and there is a
documentary that's out as well.
(33:40):
We haven't watched thedocumentary.
Speaker 6 (33:41):
No, and I was saying that we should.
Obviously we've got it on ourradar.
One of the things that'sinteresting is the documentary.
There's actually two.
There's one that was made inlike 2015 and one that was made
in 2018, but the more recent onein 2018 has Anne Rice's son,
Christopher actuallyates itBecause obviously he has a lot
of connections to the gaycommunity in New Orleans, things
like that, so he's obviouslygoing to be a very likely ally
(34:05):
and somebody that wants thathistory preserved and things
like that so interesting that hegot involved on kind of
commemorating and honoring thathistory and really keeping that
alive.
Because I think it's one ofthose things that you just don't
see, you don't hear about this.
It's one of those things that Ithink I was out for a long time
before I even heard about it.
Speaker 7 (34:23):
Yeah, yeah, and I had forgotten it for many, many
years and I recently becameaware of it again.
That was when I say recently,probably 15 years ago, and
started following it and readingit and all the changes that
occurred over that time.
I'm sorry.
I guess the documentary dateswrong.
Speaker 6 (34:37):
It's 2013 and 2015.
Upstairs Inferno is the onewith Christopher Rice, and that
was 2015.
So just to kind of keep that,there was ABC News in 2018, did
a documentary and that's what Iwas thinking of Pride and
Prejudice and Pride Fire at theUpstairs Lounge.
They did do that.
Speaker 7 (34:54):
Yeah, so I'm glad to see there's more information out
there.
That, yeah, so I'm glad to seethere's more information out
there.
But you know, again, going backto our purpose capturing the
history, making sure that thoseevents that are important in our
community are remembered, thosepeople that perished in that
fire.
We still talk about them aswell.
Speaker 6 (35:09):
Well, how do you think that their legacy can live
on?
I mean, that's one of thethings.
That's my question to you.
I mean obviously are out there,but how do we keep them up the
forefront?
Speaker 7 (35:20):
yeah, because I can.
I can guarantee you, if youlook at the history for those
people, you're not going to findvery much.
It's not likely that they'regoing to be remembered for much
more than this event.
So, yeah, I mean and that initself is sad, but I mean most
people are going to kind ofdisappear in history.
So it's only you know, throughefforts like ours, that we keep
(35:42):
talking about it, that they'llremain in the front of our minds
.
Speaker 6 (35:46):
Yeah, what do you think can help with educating
people about it and things likethat?
I mean, obviously a lot of thedocumentaries are out there.
We've got the televisionspecials and obviously we're
talking about doing podcastingand things like that.
The documentaries are out there, we've got the television
specials, and then obviouslywe're talking about doing
podcasting and things like that,and it sounds like they have a
plaque, which seems a little bitunderwhelming when you think
about the significance of theevent.
Speaker 7 (36:06):
Yeah, yeah, you know.
All changes, you know, happenone step at a time.
So I agree with you, I thinkthat's a little bit
underwhelmingming, but it issomething that would not have
been done at the time that theylived and this event happened.
So it did change, and whatwe're doing kind of changes,
that as well yeah, yeah, well,you know.
Speaker 6 (36:26):
Even pulse, though I mean I remember pulse very
vividly, obviously because ithappened more recently, yeah,
and obviously in the early 70s.
I'm not going to be as aware ofthe, the news cycles and things
like that as I was morerecently and I thought that
Pulse had a little, it had amore appropriate response, I
think, from the media and fromthings like that.
I really did see that happen.
(36:48):
So I think there is hope thatsomething like the Upstairs
Lounge isn't going to be acommon event or that people are
going to dismiss it again.
I think that's one of thethings that I hope.
Yeah, I hope so too.
Yeah, and it only took 16minutes in total the entire fire
.
So that was how quick that kindof thing happened and it does
kind of speak to I know you havea kind of a thing about looking
(37:09):
at spaces and trying to figureout if they're safe and how you
can get out.
Speaker 7 (37:13):
Yeah, yeah, it's events like this that make me
think.
You know, they're notnecessarily designed for people
to escape.
So when we go into a space,especially an older building
that's been retrofitted forsomething else, I look If
something happens, how am Igoing to get out of here?
So yeah, you're absolutelyright, I know where the windows
are, I know where the doors are.
Speaker 6 (37:33):
Yeah, but it sounded like here it was really hard
because of the bars and thelocked doors and all of that.
I mean, obviously now you know,that's one of the reasons why I
think businesses have thosethings.
These doors must remainunlocked.
This has to happen.
People have to have access toget out All those kind of things
.
It's really, I mean, it's justso horrific when you think about
it.
And New Orleans, I meanobviously famously old buildings
(37:56):
and not taken care of as well.
Probably back then, like yousaid, just they went up so
quickly.
I think that's one of thethings that was just really sad
about it.
Well, this is a sobering topic.
It is.
Speaker 7 (38:10):
Not one that we like to talk about.
We usually try to keep ourpodcast kind of light On
occasion.
There are times that we need totalk about something that's a
little bit more deep and, like Isaid, it's a timestamp for the
time that it happened andcapturing that, talking about it
so that people will understandwhat was going on with society
at that particular time.
Speaker 6 (38:30):
Well, I think what's wild is to think about that it
was June 24th.
Yeah, I mean that was duringPride Month.
I mean, obviously it wasn'tcalled Pride Month at that point
no well, the pride stuffactually started in 1969.
Speaker 7 (38:40):
Oh, four years later is when this took place.
Speaker 6 (38:43):
Well, I mean, obviously I don't think that we
had the widespread rightacknowledgement of a pride month
.
I think we were probablymarking stonewall right at some
point.
I mean, and obviously I thinkthat those things happened in
the usual suspect places likenew york la.
Speaker 7 (38:58):
New Orleans would have been one of those, I would
think.
Speaker 6 (39:01):
We'll have to look at that and see what the history
of New Orleans Pride is and whattheir thing is.
It'll be interesting to compareand contrast.
Of course, now we're headedinto July, so I think we'll save
that Maybe something to talkabout next year.
Update next year?
Yes, all right.
Well, I'm glad that you wantedto bring this one up.
Pass by, and it's somethingthat needs to be memorialized a
(39:26):
little bit more than it is.
Yeah, I agree.
Hey, this is brett cullum, andtoday I am joined by scenic
designer and alley theatersdirector of design, michael
looker, and we are talking aboutan ambitious project.
The company is taking on the davinci code.
Now you probably know about.
It is a famous book by danbrown.
It was adapted into a very bigmovie starring tom Hanks.
(39:47):
And books and movies they arequite different mediums than
stage work.
So we are here about thechallenge of bringing this story
to the Alley Theater.
The show opens on September19th.
It runs through October 19th.
It's a perfect fall mystery foryou.
The pre-sale for this one hasbeen so strong that five shows
have already been added, but weare here to talk about sets and
(40:09):
design elements and things likethat.
So, michael, my first questionis how many locations do you
have to create here?
Speaker 8 (40:18):
You know it's not a good sign when a designer loses
track of how many and can'tanswer that question reflexively
.
It's a lot.
It's a lot, I mean.
The obvious challenge aboutthis play is that it has a big
cinematic feel to it and everysingle one of those locations in
Dan Brown's story is aspectacular real world place the
Louvre, westminster Abbey,rosslyn Chapel and part of the
(40:43):
joy of experiencing the Da VinciCode as an audience member is
being wowed by those settings.
So we knew we needed to findways to go big and to deliver
spectacle and to deliver thoselocations.
Speaker 6 (40:53):
Well, that's the big trick here.
I mean, not only is this a lotof locations, but these are
locations that people in theaudience have probably either
seen a million times on photosor TV or have actually been to.
I mean, these are touristdestinations where people just
love these places and they knowwhat the set already looks like.
I mean, they know what yourinspiration is Exactly.
(41:13):
That's a tall order.
So what do you do as a designer?
How do you approach that?
I mean it's like you can'treally half do it.
I mean, it's so true.
Speaker 8 (41:22):
It's so true?
I mean, it's a couple of partanswer here.
I mean, on one hand, we alwaysstart with research.
No matter what show you'redoing, no matter how abstract or
how or how experimental theproject is, you always start
with something primary, just toget a sense of what, what your
frame of reference is.
And here the frame of reference, of course, is not just, is not
just these real locations,which are iconic locations, and,
(41:45):
as you said, people know whatthey like, they've been there,
they've taken pictures there.
Our director, rob Melrose, wentto these locations on a
different trip this summer andtook pictures of these places to
make sure we knew what we weredoing.
On the other hand, you knowpeople have expectations that
relate to their experience withthis as a pop culture phenomenon
, right.
So you know it's important forus to remember that.
(42:10):
You know, theater can bespectacle driven, but it's not
film.
And when there are so many biglocations in a show that you
have to travel between quickly,you need to lean into what
theater is better at than movies, which is, I'd say, I'd argue
it's finding clever ways topaint a picture without building
the whole cathedral on stage.
(42:30):
So what do you show, what doyou not show?
How does it all work?
There's a lot of imaginationright, and sometimes encouraging
audiences' imagination in waysthat don't really work in movies
are really exciting on stage.
Well, let's backtrack a littlebit.
Speaker 6 (42:46):
Tell me how long you've been with the Alley,
because this obviously is notyour first production.
Speaker 8 (42:50):
No, it's not Great question.
I came to the Alley not longafter my good friend and
longtime artistic partner, RobMelrose, became the artistic
director at the Alley.
He joined the Alley in 2019.
And by late 2019, I was thereas well, so I've been at the
Alley about six years with thisposition the director of design.
So you guys were like a packagedeal.
(43:11):
I'm a package deal.
You know, rob and I are bothfrom Northern California, from
the San Francisco Bay Area, andwhen he took this and announced
he was moving, I immediately, ofcourse, was thinking about how
much time I would be spending inHouston from that time forward.
Speaker 6 (43:28):
And here I am, living here.
Well, your title scenicdesigner and Alley Theatre's
director of design.
How do you define that role?
That's a great question, I'mstill working on that.
Speaker 8 (43:35):
As you said, I'm a set designer by training and
I've been a set designer and atheatre educator for my entire
career.
It's an interesting role.
I'm part of the artisticleadership team at the Alley.
I work alongside very closelywith Rob and other members of
the leadership team and theartistic leadership, working on
things like programming andcreative staffing, reading new
(43:57):
plays.
Really, what I'll say is thatis the fun part of running a
theater company.
At the same time, in additionto being involved in all these
creative things around thecompany, I'm sort of a de facto
resident set designer, so I getto design a few key productions
at the LA every season and I'mdeeply involved in creative
staffing.
So I play a key role in helpingto bring other designers into
(44:20):
projects, whether I'm designingthose shows or not.
Building teams of designers Iadmire or whose work I've envied
is a really interesting part ofthe job as well.
Speaker 6 (44:34):
So you get a little bit of input into the season
choices.
Are you ever like when theypresent something?
Are you like?
Are you kidding me?
Speaker 8 (44:42):
We can't do this.
This is a great example of that.
This is a great example of theDaVinci.
Speaker 6 (44:46):
Code itself no-transcript things like that.
(45:14):
How do you go about doing that?
Is it similar to actors?
Do they audition?
Do they send portfolios?
Speaker 8 (45:19):
Yeah, that's a great question, I mean, and anyone
working in this field, you know,spends a lot of their early
career figuring out how thisprocess works, and now that I'm
involved in this part of theprocess, a lot of my friends and
colleagues, fellow designers,who are veterans of the field,
come to me with curiosity howdoes this process work?
Because, you know, as a veryyoung, emerging designer, you
(45:43):
are sending out cover lettersand you are sending out your
portfolio and you are asking forinterviews.
That's certainly a part of theprocess, but anyone that works
in professional theater at thislevel knows that the job has
just sort of come to you.
You have a, you have a networkof associates.
Your name gets out there, andpeople become curious about
working with you and they askFor me.
(46:05):
I'll say that another part ofbeing a designer in this field,
though, is being really, reallyjealous of other people's work.
It's you spend a lot of timelooking, looking at portfolios,
looking at production photos,thinking, wow, that's a
beautiful shot.
Wow, who designed this project,and so part of the fun for me
(46:25):
of this position has been takingthat experience, the experience
of really just tracking what myfriends and colleagues are
doing and being excited andimpressed and often really super
jealous about how beautifultheir work is and then thinking,
well, wait a second.
Now I could say that thatdesigner, they'd be perfect for
this show and this lightingdesigner would be perfect for
understanding this set concept.
For instance, the lightingdesigner on this show is an old
friend of mine, tom Weaver, whoI thought of immediately when I
(46:47):
began designing this show, whenI began conceiving the stage
pictures that I had in mind forthe Dimitri Code.
There's a certain style, acertain sort of aggressive
spirit of experimentation in hislighting.
It's bold, it's noir-ish, it'snever tepid, and I knew
immediately that someone likeTom was the right guy for this
(47:08):
job.
Speaker 6 (47:08):
You know, lights are so critical.
I really think that, you know,I don't think that audiences
realize how much that plays intothe mood and the way that
things move through a play andthe way that you tell it, and I
think it's one of those artsthat people really don't think
about as hard as they probablyshould, because it is.
It can affect a performancejust as much as you know the
actors out there.
Speaker 8 (47:28):
Absolutely.
I mean the pure physics of itare.
You know, you the?
You only see what the lightingdesigner allows you to see, and
you only see things the way thelight, the way the actual light
hitting the object permits youto see.
It that you really begin tocultivate an affinity for
(47:49):
lighting designers that seem tounderstand your skin tone or the
kind of design ideas you haveas a designer.
A beautiful set could be,frankly, ruined by a lighting
designer who doesn't understandwhat the intention of the set is
, and vice versa.
The number of times I've comeup with something that I'm proud
of on stage and a lightingdesigner has surprised me with
how much better they make itlook or how well they understand
(48:12):
what we were going for.
Those experiences are great,and so it's part of the reason
why we have lots of partnershipsin theater that come up again
and again, why directors go backto certain actors repeatedly,
or why a lighting designer and aset designer may often find
themselves working together this.
Speaker 6 (48:30):
In this show you've got a couple of things.
I think that chris hutchinsit's his 100th show.
It's his 100th show and he'splaying silas.
He's playing silas, thevillainous monk, exactly.
So you've got to fight him in away that probably isn't
flattering the book he'sdescribed as albino, isn't he?
Speaker 8 (48:45):
he's albino in the book and he's and Paul Bettany,
who played him in the film, sortof carries, carries an albino
sort of quality.
I would.
Yeah, I would say that Chris'sperformance in this is just
terrific so far, and and it'salso just one of those roles
that makes me understand thatI'm not cut out to be an actor
the things that he has to do tohimself and the way he has to
(49:06):
present himself on stage andthis is before we get we were in
the theater with with the kindof aggressive lighting he's
going to be subject to is it's a, it's a pretty remarkable
surrender to the craft.
Speaker 6 (49:16):
Well, I'm definitely looking for that one.
That's going to be a toughcharacter to bring to life.
Well, what do you hope in thiscurrent show, the Da Vinci code
design wise?
How hope in this current show,the Da Vinci Code design-wise?
How do you hope that this, yourwork, kind of helps to tell the
story what?
Speaker 8 (49:32):
do you hope that the audience catches?
Ah, that's a good question.
Well, I would you know.
I would say first of all, onone hand, the show is, you know,
it's packed with technology.
We have big, moving scenery, wehave cutting edge lighting
equipment, powerful projectors.
At the same time, I'm reallyproud that the show is genuine
theater.
It's not just a movie on stage,it's terrific actors and
(49:52):
hands-on stagecraft working live.
I would point to something else,actually not my work
specifically, but anotherdesigner on the project's work.
We have a brilliant costumedesigner, helen Wong, and it's
interesting.
When you engage a story thathappens to be a pop culture
phenomenon, a lot of youraudience has expectations
because they know thesecharacters from the book or from
(50:15):
the film.
At the same time, um, you know,we have to do more than simply
recreate what tom hanks wore onscreen, and helen does such a
great job of distilling thespirit of these characters down,
giving everyone a fresh lookwhile still telling the story in
a way that feels familiar, andI am so proud of her and so
(50:35):
impressed with her work.
At the same time, I think I'vedone something along those lines
as well, created scenery andlocations on stage that are big
and that are spectacular butreally really couldn't be
further from a film set orcouldn't be further from just
(50:56):
taking these big iconiclocations and, brick by brick,
putting them on stage.
There's a lot of veryfigurative, figurative
composition in this piece from adesign perspective.
Lots of things that are verybut very much ask the audience
to fill in blanks with theireyes and with their mind in ways
(51:16):
that I think are really elegantand really interesting.
So I'm excited for people tocome in and see something which
is both big and also it's bigand it's spectacle driven but
also has some really reallyinteresting design ideas that
really lean into again what'sgreat about theater and film are
different mediums.
Speaker 6 (51:35):
Well, it's interesting.
What would you say?
And I'm just going to ask thissilly question Sure, do you
think it leans more towards thebook or the movie?
Speaker 8 (51:42):
That is a great question, you know, I'll say to
me it feels like it leans moretowards the book in pure content
.
But at the same time, you know,you can look at the film and
our stage adaptation as sort ofaccomplishing similar tasks.
(52:03):
Both say let's take this storyand let's bring it to life in an
exciting way.
And so I think that, you know,in that sense it feels parallel
to or adjacent to the film.
I think it lives alongside thefilm as another example of
taking these words on a page andsort of, you know, injecting
them and energizing them andmaking them real.
(52:23):
But again, I think what's sofun about it is the way you can
compare these media.
You can compare the way thenovel looks and feels and the
way the movie looks and feelsand the way our production looks
and feels, and reallyappreciate that it's the same
story and that the through linebetween them is Dan Brown's fun
(52:46):
ideas about these characters andthese locations and history,
and that you can experience thismovie, this book, this play in
three different ways.
Speaker 6 (52:53):
It's so fun I have.
My spouse loves to see themovie first and then go back and
read the book.
I am one of those people that Ihave to read the book first
because I don't want myinterpretation of this colored
by anyone else.
I want my imagination to go inthere.
So it's so fun when you get tosee somebody like yourself get
to bring this world to life andkind of design it for their own
(53:17):
space and the space that you'vebeen working in forever.
So it's very cool.
Thank you so much, Michael,Really looking forward to seeing
your work with this one and, ofcourse, the alley always just
excellent technical stuff.
I mean I couldn't be more proudof the work that the alley does
for the Houston community asfar as technical elements, and
so it's always impeccable.
So thank you for taking thetime to talk about it.
Speaker 8 (53:39):
I appreciate that.
Thank you, Come see the DaVinci Code everyone.
Speaker 6 (53:42):
Yes, september 19th through October 19th and I don't
know.
I have a feeling that they'llprobably add some more in there
somewhere.
Speaker 1 (53:56):
This has been Queer Voices, heard on KPFT Houston
and as a podcast available fromseveral podcasting sources.
Check our webpage queervoicesfor more information.
Queer Voices executive produceris Brian Levinka.
Deborah Moncrief-Bell isco-producer, brett Cullum and
(54:20):
David Mendoza-Druzman arecontributors.
The News Wrap segment is partof another podcast called this
Way Out, which is produced inLos Angeles.
Speaker 9 (54:31):
Some of the material in this program has been edited
to improve clarity and runtime.
This program does not endorseany political views or animal
species.
Views, opinions andendorsements are those of the
participants and theorganizations they represent.
In case of death, pleasediscontinue use and discard
remaining products.
Speaker 1 (54:44):
For Queer Voices.
I'm Glenn Holt.
This is KPFT 90.1 FM Houston, 89.5 FM Galveston, 91.9
FM Huntsville, and worldwide onthe internet at kpftorg.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
This is Deborah Moncrief-Bell and I'm speaking
with Atlantis Narcisse, who'sthe founder and CEO of Save Our
Sisters United, director ofprograms for the Transgender
Education Network of Texas anddeputy director with Les Rock.
She's worked for the MontroseCenter, the legacy community
health in the city of Houston,bridging the gap between
community and needed servicessince the early 1990s, during
the years of the HIV epidemic.
Atlantis was known fororganizing accessible and
stigma-free HIV STD testing,whether it was from her living
(01:01):
room to partnering with localclinics.
You began your journey decadesago as a house mother who held
space for people who needed acomfortable, judgment-free
environment for medical aid.
This house, the Atlantis Birth,was created to close the
familial gap that many membersof the LGBTQ plus community
(01:25):
experience with respect to theirbirth or legal families, and is
lovingly called the house ofCapri.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
A house mother.
For me, a house mother is to bethere to fill in gaps, as you
mentioned, but also to add thislayer of support, of nourishing,
empowering and uplifting people.
Like a lot of times, peopledon't realize that when we enter
into this community, sometimesour birth families are left
behind and you're looking for aplace to belong that collective.
(01:54):
So for me, to be that housemother was to help take care of
your real life, not your clublife, not anything else but your
real life and to see you as aperson and empower you.
So that's my definition for ahouse mother.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
For me, Explain what Save Our Sisters United is.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Save Our Sisters United is actually a brainchild,
a birth from my heart.
What people don't realize wasthat I was really part of a
support system that helpednavigate trans women to getting
healthy HRTs to remove them fromusing street moans, to getting
them in doctor's care.
So what I started seeing wasthat a lot of people kept
(02:32):
reaching out to me after I wouldleave the club and I was like,
what happens if I'm not here?
So the SOS was supposed to belike this call to action see our
strengths, shed our shame andall these types of things.
So SOSU started with the transwomen of color and then we
eventually started SOSU, whichis the umbrella which SOS lives
(02:52):
up under, as well as SOSB, whichis for trans men, transcending
Gaming, which is a social eventfor the community to come in and
socialize and build community.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
What does being nominated for Grand Marshal mean
to you?
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Thanks for seeing me.
A lot of times we are doing thework and people don't see us
and they only see our body ofwork and not the body that does
the work.
So for me to be seen in Houston, texas, as a Black trans woman
over 50 plus, it is phenomenal,it is heartwarming.
It also makes me realize thatI'm not forgotten, if that makes
(03:26):
sense, that I still have sometype of presence within our
community.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
What is your past experience with pride?
And you are a native Houstonianand you got your degree in
sociology at TSU.
You are representing in so manylevels.
Do you think that pride isrelevant?
Speaker 3 (03:44):
Oh God, yes, definitely, I definitely feel
like pride is relevant.
I think anything that shows thediverse and our expressions of
our queerness is relevant.
Hearing pride and knowing itsexistence has made me feel like
I am relevant, that we areseeing, that the city of Houston
sees us, that the nation seesus, because there are prides all
across the nation.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
The theme is you won't break our pride.
What does that mean for you?
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Especially after the year we have had as trans people
.
You won't break us.
I think that means that nomatter what you say, what you do
, we are resilient.
We are not going anywhere.
Though you may take thesesuperficial attacks at us, we
are stronger and we are evenstronger together.
Not breaking us, meaning thatwe are our own joy.
You don't get to govern that.
(04:30):
Not bending us and tearing usdown, because we uplift and
empower each other.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
This is Deborah Moncriek-Bell, and I'm talking
with Atlantis.
Narcisse, what would you say?
Speaker 3 (04:41):
your number one achievement in the community is
I have really believed that mynumber one contributor is
uplifting the narratives ofBlack trans women here in
Houston.
As many people may know, it wasthree Black trans women that
really started the narrative ofBlack trans women here in
Houston Myself, deedee andMonica and I'm the only one left
in Houston right now.
(05:01):
So I am glad that Black voices,especially those of Black trans
bodies, are being heard, thosenarratives are being seen, and
the importance of why narrativesneed to be expressed and heard
and taken care of.
So, yes, I feel like me justbeing present, creating it,
doing the work that I have doneis the most valuable thing I
could have ever done, because westarted the conversation.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Tell me who Dee Dee is and who about Monica.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
Monica Roberts.
I have been having so manyconversations about Monica.
Monica was really the pushbehind getting narratives out
there about trans murders aswell as anything that was
anti-trans.
She was a beast when it came tothe political arena, which I am
not, so thank you, monica, forholding that down.
Indeed, he was definitelyanother beast for on-ground
(05:50):
advocacy for trans people, aswell as going into places like
healthcare city of Houstonhealthcare departments to battle
for us to be able to use thebathroom.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Yes, unfortunately we lost Monica several years ago,
monica Roberts, who was indeed aforce of nature.
We do miss those that aren'twith us, but they also gave us
inspiration to carry on.
Is there anything that I comingtoward?
Queerness is not a me agenda.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
It's a we agenda, and that we are stronger together,
as we have always shown inhistory and we will continue to
show that, and that we are allpowerful in our own spaces and
we're all each grand marshals insomebody's eyes.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Thank you for being with us on Queer Voices.
Speaker 4 (06:42):
Thank you for listening to Queer Voices on
KPFT or wherever you get yourpodcasts.
I'm Davis Mendoza-Druzman heretoday with an exciting interview
with community leaders AtlantisNarcissus, founder of Save Our
Sisters United Inc, aHouston-based nonprofit
dedicated to empowering,connecting and mobilizing trans
people of color, and founder andco-chair of Queens of Houston.
(07:02):
That's Queer Unified Emergencyand Empowerment Network of
Houston, a brand newcommunity-based coalition with
local LGBTQ plus orgs like theMontrose Center, montrose Grace
Place, hpd's LGBTQ pluscommunity liaison and, of course
, save Our Sisters United Incand more.
Hey Alanis.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
Hey Davis, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
We're also joined by our third fellow Queens of
Houston co-chair, austin DavisRuiz, who is also president of
the Houston LGBTQ Plus PoliticalCaucus, the oldest LGBTQIA plus
civil rights organization inthe South.
Welcome back to Queer Voices.
Speaker 5 (07:36):
Austin.
Thanks so much for giving methis opportunity, davis, good to
be back.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
So glad to have y'all on Now this isn't either of
y'all's first time on QueerVoices Atlantis through your
Houston Pride 365 Pride GrandMarshal nomination, and Austin
through your work with HoustonLGBTQ Plus Political Caucus, but
this is y'all's first time heretalking about Queens of Houston
.
So Atlantis I mentioned earlierthat Queens of Houston stands
(08:03):
for Queer Unified Emergency andEmpowerment Network of Houston.
But could you tell me a littlebit about the history, how it
came about, why y'all believethat this is necessary and what
the work looks like?
Speaker 3 (08:16):
Sure, Thanks, davis.
Queens of Houston came out ofthe evolution of Rain in
Paradise.
So, as you know, texas haslived sometimes with trans
murders and sadly here inHouston we have seen two this
year.
And with those we startednoticing that the way that we
were responding was so siloed.
We weren't responding as acommunity, it was only Black
(08:39):
trans people responding.
When trans people were beingkilled, when it was a Latinx
trans person, it was only theLatin community and it just did
not spell community to me.
I started seeing that there weresome spots where we could be a
little bit more cohesive andstand as a community and that
sometimes the separation was outof respect in a sense.
(08:59):
So it was a double-edged sword.
I wanted to be able to removethat double-edged sword and
bring more community into thisfight.
For us, this is not a me fight,this is a we fight and, as we
know, many trans people havestood up in front lines for
everybody's rights.
So why can we not do thattogether as a community?
As far as how we navigate in thework that goes through that, we
(09:23):
act like a supplement supportfor families when their loved
member has been taken awayviolently.
We help navigate them throughour community to get the
information that they need.
We help battle misinformation,as we know, a lot of times on
the social media.
It could be a good thing, butit also could be a bad thing.
So battling and misinformationand having one voice, one
(09:45):
message, shows the cohesivenessof the community as well, and
it's not just about, like,violent crimes, it's also
natural disasters, any need thatthe LGBT community needs.
We are there as Queens ofHouston to be there, to respond
and to help navigate thesituation.
So many times we have liaisonscoming from community orgs, from
(10:07):
our allies.
Why do we not have liaisons andspace for us to stand up for
our community?
Speaker 4 (10:14):
Thank you, Atlantis, Austin.
Atlantis touched on communitycohesiveness and bringing
community together, and you arevery prevalent in the community,
both with the Houston LGBTQplus political caucus but also
the Harris County Commissioner'sCourt.
You work with Precinct 4, butalso with the LGBTQ plus
advisory board there.
But could you tell me moreabout this need for a unified
(10:38):
voice, a unified message?
Speaker 5 (10:39):
Of course.
So when we think of all of thetragedies that Atlantis just
touched upon right, when wethink about community being
killed because of anti-transviolence, when we think about
natural kind of Houston, harrisCounty, a lot of times LGBTQIA
(11:06):
plus people are really left outof those kind of traditional
social support systems.
So when we think about disasterresponse coming from Harris
County or from the city ofHouston, it's typically not
thought of through the lens ofan LGBTQIA plus community or
even just looking at the lens ofhow can we best serve the
(11:27):
marginalized right or even thehyper marginalized, those
communities.
And so that's really where thisneed for Queens Houston kind of
came from.
And that's why our mission isto proactively support and
empower LGBTQIA plusorganizations to ensure
effective, inclusive andequitable emergency and crisis
response strategies for thecommunity, with a focus on the
(11:50):
hyper-marginalized.
And so really we are trying todo the work of creating this
social support system, creatingthis empowerment network, as we
call it, to be able to take careof our own in the face of
whatever disaster, tragedy kindof strikes.
Right, glen has definitelytouched upon the kind of unified
response in the face ofanti-trans violence, of which,
(12:11):
unfortunately, there were twomurders this year, but also
looking at how can we take careof our community when there is
another hurricane or whenthere's another natural disaster
.
A lot of times community doesn'tnecessarily feel safe seeking
services from the city ofHouston or from Harris County,
or they may not even knownecessarily where to go right
(12:34):
and our elected officials maynot realize that our community
members need this kind ofspecific care and attention.
And so that's really where Ithink a lot of this work is kind
of born from this need of ourcommunity to take care of
attention.
And so that's really where Ithink a lot of this work is is
kind of born from this need ofour community to take care of us
.
And this is something thatwe've done historically right.
When we're looking at the HIVAIDS crisis, right, it was our
(12:55):
community mostly lesbian womenright that took care of gay men
during this kind of epidemic,right.
Even looking at the most recentImpox health crisis, right, our
community really was the onekind of leading the effort to
one push vaccinations for thecommunity, for people to get
vaccinated that could, but thenalso really fighting.
(13:15):
I personally did this.
I spoke at city council, Ispoke at commissioner's court
advocating for expandedvaccination guidelines to allow
more of our community members tobe able to get vaccinated
against mpox, and so, looking atour history, this is something
that we're extremely familiarwith.
It's something that we'vealways done, and so, really,
this is not something new for usto do, but it is new
(13:37):
specifically within the space ofHouston and Harris County.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
One thing would be identifying and navigating
people to resources.
As Austin mentioned a lot oftimes, we're not in that thought
plan, right.
So by us being in these spacesand reaching out to other
organizations hey, whatresources do you have, how do
you go there?
The goal is and also tellingthem what we need.
(14:01):
I think a lot of times whenpeople think about Houston's
LGBT community, they think aboutMontrose and all that.
But we're no longer in thegayborhood, we're all around
Houston.
So the need is bigger and it'smore stretched.
The resources have to be inthose spaces.
So, queens of Houston, our goalis to help people get in those
(14:22):
spaces.
Our goal is to help to provideemergency kits, hurricane
preparation kits and all thosethings.
It's hard to just say one thing,because each need is unique for
different spaces.
Not everybody may need ahurricane kit.
Maybe someone just needs aspace to cool off and be able to
access the internet, you know.
So I think that it sounds likean easy answer, but sometimes
(14:45):
it's not an easy answer.
But I will say the easieranswer for this is just take
care of the human body.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
And Atlantis.
I'd also like to ask about theprocess of supporting victims
family members, and youmentioned vigils, so could you
kind of walk us through whathappens immediately after a
(15:15):
murder is reported and HPD ismade aware, what happens step by
step.
What happens from there?
Speaker 3 (15:23):
Sure, no problem.
So normally it would just bepeople jumping on the mic.
But this year we decided tochange the process.
Now when a person has been,when a trans individual or a
community member has been takenaway from us, first thing I do
is connect with our HPD liaison.
They give me their informationwhat's going on?
(15:43):
Sometimes I may have to helpidentify the body or the
individual, but then from therewe normally would just start
posting about it.
But this time we're being alittle bit more strategic and
taking back some of our powerand our assets.
So now when we do that, we talkwith our community members, ie
Queens of Houston.
What's going on here, thelogistics, here's the plan, and
(16:06):
from there we make our plan.
And until HPD has said it'sokay to release the information,
we sit on the information.
But, as I said, social mediacould be a double-edged sword
and sometimes when we get onthere and we run wild with
information, we're not realizingthat the person who committed
the crime may be watching socialmedia also and learning how to
(16:27):
avoid us and avoid spaces wherethey could be taken into custody
, right.
So from that we will sit andmake.
We have to block out time formedia to speak with us.
Only At this time, on this day.
This is the only time to speakwith us.
Then we will start planning thevisual.
But what we ask of the media isthat they, as much as they're
(16:50):
recording and want access to ourbad information, that they also
support our good information.
Celebrate us when we're doinggood things, like Black Trans
Empowerment Week or thelaunching of Queens of Houston
anything that's positive in LGBTHouston's LGBT community.
We need to start highlightingthat.
We don't always need to besupporting messages of trauma.
(17:13):
So from there we would do thevisual.
We ask the news people not to,or media not to interview people
at that moment.
Let that space be a visual.
But in the midst of doing that,we are speaking to the family
or we have a person that is aliaison to the family.
What people don't realize isthat this family has lost a
member of their family that theylove, regardless of how we may
(17:36):
see them as our chosen family.
The biological family has therights unless somebody, unless
that person has put it in theirwill or written it up for us to
have access to take first stand.
But other than that, we workwith navigating the family, make
sure they're OK with the visualand this and that.
Yes, we may want to celebratethem, but we have to be
(17:57):
respectful of the family as wellas the individual.
We can still celebrate peopleand not be disrespectful, Right,
They'll celebrate people andnot be disrespectful, right, and
a lot of times, these familymembers maybe just the first
time ever interacting withsomebody outside of their
individual family member.
So from that, we do the visual,we navigate that, we call out
media if they're misgendering,if they're not doing this.
(18:19):
But here's the thing about this, Davis, I want to say that
there is a perfect plan.
Traditionally that we say wewalk this way.
The goal wasn't to develop aperfect plan.
The goal was to develop ahumane plan, Right, that was
really respectful of the humanlife that was taken away,
especially that of a LGBT memberin Houston, and to highlight
(18:42):
that these are going on a numberof times and most times we do
not catch the person or catchanyone that is connected with
the crime.
But I am happy to say, withinthe past two situations that we
have had this year, we have hadsome arrests done.
Speaker 5 (18:58):
I think sometimes as community, whenever we are faced
with a tragedy, our gutinstinct, our response is to
jump on social media and tostart posting about it, to start
talking about the person thatwas murdered, killed, assaulted,
whatever it may be Right,before really HPD or the
sheriff's office or whatever lawenforcement agency has been
(19:20):
able to take the time to reallydo their due diligence to
understand the situation right.
We've seen situations in thepast, specifically in Houston,
where there has been rumors orthere has been misinformation
about the LGBTQIA plus identityof a person and specifically I
remember this was an instancewith the shooter at Lakewood and
(19:43):
there was a lot of rumors goingaround on social media that
this person was trans.
People started posting about it, started running with it,
ultimately turned out not to betrue, right, and so I think the
the importance here is that whenwe are faced with tragedy in
our community, we understandthat people want to uplift that
person that was taken from ourcommunity, that people want to
(20:04):
uplift that person that wastaken from our community, that
people want to tell their story,but we also have to understand
that we need law enforcementtime to be able to really do
their due diligence inidentifying the victim and
seeing if there is anypossibility of catching the
perpetrator, finding evidenceright.
Speaker 6 (20:22):
You're listening to Queer Voices on 90.1 KPFT, and
this is Brett, and I'm joined bymy husband, lee Ingalls.
We host a podcast that isseparate from this one called
the Prairie Rainbow Review, andthis segment is actually an
episode that we did about theupstairs lounge fire.
Speaker 7 (20:41):
Right, which took place in June of 1970, just two
months before I moved to BatonRouge.
So I remember it kind of,although, as you'll hear in the
episode, it wasn't well talkedabout or the newspaper media did
not share much about it at all.
Yeah, yeah.
So, from my perspective, Ithink capturing our history,
remembering our history andtimestamp, some of these things
(21:05):
is important, that we do that,not just for today, but going
forward, and that's what thisepisode is about and you kind of
have a real interest in history, you really bring that to the
table a lot.
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I mean, it's grounded inwho I am as a person.
My whole family have told theirstories through books and other
media as well.
So, yes, it's very important.
Speaker 6 (21:24):
Well, spoiler alert, your last name is Ingalls.
Yeah, yeah so, laura IngallsWilder.
There you go.
Yeah, little House on thePrairie, but the upstairs lounge
fire was interesting because itwas probably the worst
casualties in a gay club upuntil the Pulse shootings in
Orlando, yep, so yeah, yeah that, and you know, as time went on
(21:44):
and you read about it, thedetails of what actually took
place changed.
Speaker 7 (21:47):
So I, you know, looked it up very early on and
what took place at that periodof time was just horrific.
And the fact that the fire tookplace at all and then it lasted
for several days, and thenfamily members not wanting to
claim their their deceased lovedones, it was not good.
Speaker 6 (22:05):
Well, one of the reasons I wanted to bring this
to the Queer Voices audience isthat we are entering a time when
violence is becoming just likeeverywhere.
It seems like we are not assafe in our spaces anymore, and
the upstairs lounge can reallyteach us a lot about safety and
going to a club and recognizing.
How do you get out, what do youneed to look at?
(22:25):
What safety concerns do youhave?
Speaker 7 (22:27):
Yeah, Well, you know, every time that I go into a
space, I always look for whereare the exits and how do I get
there?
Speaker 6 (22:32):
Yes, absolutely, and that's one of the things that I
think made this tragedy sounique is they really had no way
to get out.
They didn't, yeah, I guess backthen they probably didn't
enforce the safety code that wehave today.
They didn't yeah, because backthen they probably didn't
enforce the safety code that wehave today.
But always look, always know,definitely.
So with that, please enjoy oursegment on the upstairs fire, or
(22:53):
Would enjoy being a good word,I think.
Learn something from thehistory.
Yes.
Speaker 7 (22:58):
Capturing history.
Speaker 4 (23:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (23:00):
Hi everyone, thank you for joining us.
Today.
We're going to talk about apiece of our history that
doesn't often get talked about,and if you know me, you know
capturing history, capturing thesense of a period of time, is
very important, very important.
(23:22):
This one on June 24th of 1973,there was a fire at a bar in New
Orleans at the upstairs loungeis what the bar was called.
This happened two months beforeI moved to Baton Rouge, so I
remember hearing about thisstory, but it surprised me even
at the time at the lack of newscoverage that it actually got.
During that fire, there were 32people that lost their lives
and another 15 that were injured, and the details of the fire
(23:45):
are as bad as you can imagine.
Yeah, do you want to go oversome of those details?
Speaker 6 (23:49):
Well, they aren't totally sure of how the events
transpired because obviouslyit's an unsolved case.
Right, their main suspect,roger Dale Nunez.
He was thrown out of the barearlier that day and he
supposedly set fire to the bar.
He obviously went to Walgreensand bought some lighter fluid
and he lit the front entrance onfire, but he later claimed that
(24:12):
he didn't think it would go upas fast as it did, right.
So but he was never convicted ofit and I think that they didn't
know.
He tried to talk to him and hehad some kind of jaw problem.
There was all this weird stuff.
It really spoke to the factthat they didn't really
prosecute anybody orinvestigated it very hard.
It was a very strange kind ofoccurrence, but it held the
(24:36):
record of the deadliest attackon a gay club in US history
until, of course, 2016, with theOrlando nightclub shooting at
Pulse.
So it's one of those thatshould have gotten a lot more
coverage than it did.
But because it happened in 1973, I think people didn't quite
cover it as much.
I think even the mayor at thetime really didn't, until he was
pressed Right right, right,yeah, and the details of it are
(24:58):
kind of horrific.
Speaker 7 (24:58):
So, as you said, that gentleman, they suspect did
start.
It was kicked out of the barearlier in the day and from what
I understand in reading it andkeep in mind, I've followed this
over the years, so the detailsof what actually happened even
now continue to change.
So the way that it wasinitially reported was the bar
apparently had a locked door,that you had to ring a bell and
(25:20):
somebody had to let you in.
You couldn't just walk up tothe bar, which was located on
the second floor, and get in.
You had to be let in.
So this person put theaccelerant on the steps, rang
the bell and when somebody cameto let him in, the staircase was
already on fire.
When they opened the door, thefire burst into the bar itself.
There was a back door andapparently that person that
(25:42):
opened the door initiallygathered about 20 people and
they were able to get out thatback door, but somehow when they
got out the door they locked itand the people that were left
in weren't able to get out thatdoor.
So the people the 20 peopleescaped using getting to a roof
on a building next door.
The rest of them were trappedand there were bars on the
windows, so they weren't able toget out the window either, and
(26:04):
there was at least one personthat was stuck in the window.
You could tell that they weretrying to get out, but they died
there in the window, andinitial reports of that said
that he was there for days andvisible to the people in the
street for days.
But now if you read about it,they're saying it was hours.
So you know, I don't know wherethe truth in that actually lies
(26:25):
, but I mean, it doesn't matterHours or days.
It's still a horrific thing tohave happen and to have happened
to your legacy.
Yeah, I mean, that's what tookplace.
Speaker 6 (26:35):
Yeah, it was a lot to take in and a lot of stuff that
happened and it sounds justhorrific to even think about and
more horrific in that nobodyreally paid a lot of attention
because it was a gay bar, I mean, and that's just the time that
they were in, right?
Speaker 7 (26:50):
Nobody really cared, and so the you know, the markers
of the time are one you'reright, it was a gay bar, so
nobody was really that concernedabout it.
It didn't hit the front pagethe way that it should have.
And another one that justreally speaks to where we were
as a society.
Some of the family members ofthose victims didn't even want
to claim their relative.
They wanted to let the citymanage the burying their family
(27:16):
member.
Speaker 6 (27:16):
Burying their family member, which is just to me
remarkable, but that's the wayit was then One of the things
that's kind of interesting is ithas a lot of connections to the
Metropolitan Community ChurchMost people call them MCC.
A lot of their congregants werethere that night and this was
like the third arson attack onMCC.
There was one at theirheadquarters in Los Angeles in
(27:38):
1973.
There was another one inNashville Didn't have any
injuries, thankfully, but it diddestroy the church and its
furnishings and things like that.
That was also in 73.
So this was kind of a thirdarson attack basically against
this church, which was typicallyaccepting of gay members, right
.
So I mean, it was definitelyone of those things where you
(27:59):
kind of think about it in alarger scale, although it sounds
like, if we go with the storythat they're giving, it sounded
like it was just a disgruntledperson who had been thrown out,
right right and had some kind ofweird mental lapse or something
, and right that's.
And then the horrible thing isobviously gay bars were designed
not to be very easilyaccessible.
Obviously, yeah, and theywanted to keep people out
accessible.
Obviously yeah, and they wantedto keep people out.
(28:19):
So obviously the the locking ofthe doors and the bars on the
windows and things like thatthey were to protect the people
inside, but they didn't thinkthey would trap them inside.
I mean, I think that's what thehorrible part of it is, and it
happened about eight o'clock atnight on that day.
So that was, uh, one of thethings.
That's hard to believe that itwas that early in the evening as
well.
Speaker 7 (28:40):
Yeah, and it's, you know, like many times or many
events like this.
It's kind of a series of eventsthat lead up to how, just how
bad it was.
The fire department wasn't thatfar away.
I can think of block or two,because it was in the New
Orleans French Quarter.
The parking and sidewalks andeverything were crowded, crowded
.
Speaker 6 (28:58):
They weren't able to get to it as quickly as they
otherwise would have been ableto, so that was a factor that
played into you know how quicklyand horribly it went well, it's
like some of the churchesrefused to hold funerals for the
victims, yeah, and that was abig, a big deal as well, and it
kind of reminds me of kind ofwhat's to come with the AIDS
(29:20):
epidemic.
There was definitely a lot ofthat where churches didn't
necessarily leap forward to holdservices there either.
This one was definitely one ofthose serious moments in time
where they did that as well,right right.
Speaker 7 (29:34):
So you had two situations there.
Some of them refused to holdthe services.
Those that did held theservices, but they also were
bombarded with hate mailafterwards and the people that
went to those services comingand going through a side door so
(29:59):
that they couldn't be orwouldn't be photographed going
to the service.
But and now they're they'resaying that that that was one of
the markers of the time, asthey refused to do that and use
the front entrance, kind ofsaying we're no longer doing
this, we are no longer ashamedof this.
Speaker 6 (30:13):
Yeah, yeah, it's hard to believe that that would be
something that would would.
Something that would happenSeems crazy, and some of the
victims were never identifieduntil much later.
I mean, it sounds like theyweren't even identified until
maybe 2018, as recently as thatRight.
Speaker 7 (30:30):
There's still two, I think, that have not been
identified, but initially therewas three, and I think there was
one that was identified in 2018, as you said, it's amazing to
think that you can justdisappear and nobody know, or
anything like that.
Speaker 6 (30:42):
That seems just crazy to me.
Speaker 7 (30:45):
It does to me too, and that kind of gets to this
thing that you've heard me sayso often is that people try to
erase your history.
And not claiming your familymember or not saying my brother
lived in New Orleans andsuddenly, as of that date, I
haven't heard from him sincethen, is just remarkable to me.
(31:06):
You know, I was a young man, Iwas an adult at that time.
So, as I said, I do remember itsomewhat.
The details of it have changedover the years, but back in
those days I mean I was kind ofI had found our community and I
was kind of an in-your-face kindof guy.
I was not shy about being gay,and those that shied away from
it to me were the oldergeneration, those that grew up
(31:29):
in the bars being raided andhaving their photos posted in
the newspaper and their namesand losing their jobs.
That was a generation before meand I knew that.
So I was a little bit moredefined than what these people
were.
Speaker 6 (31:45):
Well, it sounds like there weren't any protests, if
I'm right.
I mean, it sounds like the gayreporters went after the mayor
for not really talking about theangle that it was gay and
things like that, but it doesn'tsound like that.
Anybody like rose up andprotested in the streets.
Speaker 7 (31:59):
Oh no, cause it wasn't really a hate crime like
we see today.
Speaker 6 (32:02):
Yeah, it was just kind of a tragedy but I think
it's a tragedy that all thesepeople didn't get claimed or
identified, or and that theyreally didn't pursue the
investigation all that hard.
Speaker 7 (32:13):
That's the saddest part of the whole thing is the
you know the world was willingto turn their back on them and
act as though it didn't happenand they don't matter.
That was the saddest part.
Speaker 6 (32:24):
It's interesting the building hasn't changed owners.
It actually now is a businessoffice and there's also a
kitchen for a lounge called theJumaane Lounge, which was
established a little bit beforethis incident and I think they
were established in 71.
And obviously the owneractually witnessed the fire in
(32:45):
its aftermath.
I mean, obviously it just seemscrazy.
It was a third floor, was ownedby the upstairs lounge and they
said that it remains unused andpartially damaged.
If they kept it that way, it'scrazy.
Yeah, that sounds like kind ofa wild history of the building
that it still kind of has alittle bit of the scars of all
of that from that far back thismany years later.
Yeah, yeah, they did celebratethe well not celebrate mark the
(33:10):
25th anniversary with theMetropolitan Community Church in
1998, and they held a serviceto commemorate the deaths and
the Orson and things like that.
Speaker 7 (33:19):
And they've done a couple of things since then.
Yeah, in 2003, they placed thememorial plaque on the sidewalk
in front of the building, andthen there is a documentary
that's out.
A webpage is dedicated to it.
I've posted that on my socialmedia pages and there is a
documentary that's out as well.
(33:40):
We haven't watched thedocumentary.
Speaker 6 (33:41):
No, and I was saying that we should.
Obviously we've got it on ourradar.
One of the things that'sinteresting is the documentary.
There's actually two.
There's one that was made inlike 2015 and one that was made
in 2018, but the more recent onein 2018 has Anne Rice's son,
Christopher actuallyates itBecause obviously he has a lot
of connections to the gaycommunity in New Orleans, things
like that, so he's obviouslygoing to be a very likely ally
(34:05):
and somebody that wants thathistory preserved and things
like that so interesting that hegot involved on kind of
commemorating and honoring thathistory and really keeping that
alive.
Because I think it's one ofthose things that you just don't
see, you don't hear about this.
It's one of those things that Ithink I was out for a long time
before I even heard about it.
Speaker 7 (34:23):
Yeah, yeah, and I had forgotten it for many, many
years and I recently becameaware of it again.
That was when I say recently,probably 15 years ago, and
started following it and readingit and all the changes that
occurred over that time.
I'm sorry.
I guess the documentary dateswrong.
Speaker 6 (34:37):
It's 2013 and 2015.
Upstairs Inferno is the onewith Christopher Rice, and that
was 2015.
So just to kind of keep that,there was ABC News in 2018, did
a documentary and that's what Iwas thinking of Pride and
Prejudice and Pride Fire at theUpstairs Lounge.
They did do that.
Speaker 7 (34:54):
Yeah, so I'm glad to see there's more information out
there.
That, yeah, so I'm glad to seethere's more information out
there.
But you know, again, going backto our purpose capturing the
history, making sure that thoseevents that are important in our
community are remembered, thosepeople that perished in that
fire.
We still talk about them aswell.
Speaker 6 (35:09):
Well, how do you think that their legacy can live
on?
I mean, that's one of thethings.
That's my question to you.
I mean obviously are out there,but how do we keep them up the
forefront?
Speaker 7 (35:20):
yeah, because I can.
I can guarantee you, if youlook at the history for those
people, you're not going to findvery much.
It's not likely that they'regoing to be remembered for much
more than this event.
So, yeah, I mean and that initself is sad, but I mean most
people are going to kind ofdisappear in history.
So it's only you know, throughefforts like ours, that we keep
(35:42):
talking about it, that they'llremain in the front of our minds
.
Speaker 6 (35:46):
Yeah, what do you think can help with educating
people about it and things likethat?
I mean, obviously a lot of thedocumentaries are out there.
We've got the televisionspecials and obviously we're
talking about doing podcastingand things like that.
The documentaries are out there, we've got the television
specials, and then obviouslywe're talking about doing
podcasting and things like that,and it sounds like they have a
plaque, which seems a little bitunderwhelming when you think
about the significance of theevent.
Speaker 7 (36:06):
Yeah, yeah, you know.
All changes, you know, happenone step at a time.
So I agree with you, I thinkthat's a little bit
underwhelmingming, but it issomething that would not have
been done at the time that theylived and this event happened.
So it did change, and whatwe're doing kind of changes,
that as well yeah, yeah, well,you know.
Speaker 6 (36:26):
Even pulse, though I mean I remember pulse very
vividly, obviously because ithappened more recently, yeah,
and obviously in the early 70s.
I'm not going to be as aware ofthe, the news cycles and things
like that as I was morerecently and I thought that
Pulse had a little, it had amore appropriate response, I
think, from the media and fromthings like that.
I really did see that happen.
(36:48):
So I think there is hope thatsomething like the Upstairs
Lounge isn't going to be acommon event or that people are
going to dismiss it again.
I think that's one of thethings that I hope.
Yeah, I hope so too.
Yeah, and it only took 16minutes in total the entire fire
.
So that was how quick that kindof thing happened and it does
kind of speak to I know you havea kind of a thing about looking
(37:09):
at spaces and trying to figureout if they're safe and how you
can get out.
Speaker 7 (37:13):
Yeah, yeah, it's events like this that make me
think.
You know, they're notnecessarily designed for people
to escape.
So when we go into a space,especially an older building
that's been retrofitted forsomething else, I look If
something happens, how am Igoing to get out of here?
So yeah, you're absolutelyright, I know where the windows
are, I know where the doors are.
Speaker 6 (37:33):
Yeah, but it sounded like here it was really hard
because of the bars and thelocked doors and all of that.
I mean, obviously now you know,that's one of the reasons why I
think businesses have thosethings.
These doors must remainunlocked.
This has to happen.
People have to have access toget out All those kind of things
.
It's really, I mean, it's justso horrific when you think about
it.
And New Orleans, I meanobviously famously old buildings
(37:56):
and not taken care of as well.
Probably back then, like yousaid, just they went up so
quickly.
I think that's one of thethings that was just really sad
about it.
Well, this is a sobering topic.
It is.
Speaker 7 (38:10):
Not one that we like to talk about.
We usually try to keep ourpodcast kind of light On
occasion.
There are times that we need totalk about something that's a
little bit more deep and, like Isaid, it's a timestamp for the
time that it happened andcapturing that, talking about it
so that people will understandwhat was going on with society
at that particular time.
Speaker 6 (38:30):
Well, I think what's wild is to think about that it
was June 24th.
Yeah, I mean that was duringPride Month.
I mean, obviously it wasn'tcalled Pride Month at that point
no well, the pride stuffactually started in 1969.
Speaker 7 (38:40):
Oh, four years later is when this took place.
Speaker 6 (38:43):
Well, I mean, obviously I don't think that we
had the widespread rightacknowledgement of a pride month
.
I think we were probablymarking stonewall right at some
point.
I mean, and obviously I thinkthat those things happened in
the usual suspect places likenew york la.
Speaker 7 (38:58):
New Orleans would have been one of those, I would
think.
Speaker 6 (39:01):
We'll have to look at that and see what the history
of New Orleans Pride is and whattheir thing is.
It'll be interesting to compareand contrast.
Of course, now we're headedinto July, so I think we'll save
that Maybe something to talkabout next year.
Update next year?
Yes, all right.
Well, I'm glad that you wantedto bring this one up.
Pass by, and it's somethingthat needs to be memorialized a
(39:26):
little bit more than it is.
Yeah, I agree.
Hey, this is brett cullum, andtoday I am joined by scenic
designer and alley theatersdirector of design, michael
looker, and we are talking aboutan ambitious project.
The company is taking on the davinci code.
Now you probably know about.
It is a famous book by danbrown.
It was adapted into a very bigmovie starring tom Hanks.
(39:47):
And books and movies they arequite different mediums than
stage work.
So we are here about thechallenge of bringing this story
to the Alley Theater.
The show opens on September19th.
It runs through October 19th.
It's a perfect fall mystery foryou.
The pre-sale for this one hasbeen so strong that five shows
have already been added, but weare here to talk about sets and
(40:09):
design elements and things likethat.
So, michael, my first questionis how many locations do you
have to create here?
Speaker 8 (40:18):
You know it's not a good sign when a designer loses
track of how many and can'tanswer that question reflexively
.
It's a lot.
It's a lot, I mean.
The obvious challenge aboutthis play is that it has a big
cinematic feel to it and everysingle one of those locations in
Dan Brown's story is aspectacular real world place the
Louvre, westminster Abbey,rosslyn Chapel and part of the
(40:43):
joy of experiencing the Da VinciCode as an audience member is
being wowed by those settings.
So we knew we needed to findways to go big and to deliver
spectacle and to deliver thoselocations.
Speaker 6 (40:53):
Well, that's the big trick here.
I mean, not only is this a lotof locations, but these are
locations that people in theaudience have probably either
seen a million times on photosor TV or have actually been to.
I mean, these are touristdestinations where people just
love these places and they knowwhat the set already looks like.
I mean, they know what yourinspiration is Exactly.
(41:13):
That's a tall order.
So what do you do as a designer?
How do you approach that?
I mean it's like you can'treally half do it.
I mean, it's so true.
Speaker 8 (41:22):
It's so true?
I mean, it's a couple of partanswer here.
I mean, on one hand, we alwaysstart with research.
No matter what show you'redoing, no matter how abstract or
how or how experimental theproject is, you always start
with something primary, just toget a sense of what, what your
frame of reference is.
And here the frame of reference, of course, is not just, is not
just these real locations,which are iconic locations, and,
(41:45):
as you said, people know whatthey like, they've been there,
they've taken pictures there.
Our director, rob Melrose, wentto these locations on a
different trip this summer andtook pictures of these places to
make sure we knew what we weredoing.
On the other hand, you knowpeople have expectations that
relate to their experience withthis as a pop culture phenomenon
, right.
So you know it's important forus to remember that.
(42:10):
You know, theater can bespectacle driven, but it's not
film.
And when there are so many biglocations in a show that you
have to travel between quickly,you need to lean into what
theater is better at than movies, which is, I'd say, I'd argue
it's finding clever ways topaint a picture without building
the whole cathedral on stage.
(42:30):
So what do you show, what doyou not show?
How does it all work?
There's a lot of imaginationright, and sometimes encouraging
audiences' imagination in waysthat don't really work in movies
are really exciting on stage.
Well, let's backtrack a littlebit.
Speaker 6 (42:46):
Tell me how long you've been with the Alley,
because this obviously is notyour first production.
Speaker 8 (42:50):
No, it's not Great question.
I came to the Alley not longafter my good friend and
longtime artistic partner, RobMelrose, became the artistic
director at the Alley.
He joined the Alley in 2019.
And by late 2019, I was thereas well, so I've been at the
Alley about six years with thisposition the director of design.
So you guys were like a packagedeal.
(43:11):
I'm a package deal.
You know, rob and I are bothfrom Northern California, from
the San Francisco Bay Area, andwhen he took this and announced
he was moving, I immediately, ofcourse, was thinking about how
much time I would be spending inHouston from that time forward.
Speaker 6 (43:28):
And here I am, living here.
Well, your title scenicdesigner and Alley Theatre's
director of design.
How do you define that role?
That's a great question, I'mstill working on that.
Speaker 8 (43:35):
As you said, I'm a set designer by training and
I've been a set designer and atheatre educator for my entire
career.
It's an interesting role.
I'm part of the artisticleadership team at the Alley.
I work alongside very closelywith Rob and other members of
the leadership team and theartistic leadership, working on
things like programming andcreative staffing, reading new
(43:57):
plays.
Really, what I'll say is thatis the fun part of running a
theater company.
At the same time, in additionto being involved in all these
creative things around thecompany, I'm sort of a de facto
resident set designer, so I getto design a few key productions
at the LA every season and I'mdeeply involved in creative
staffing.
So I play a key role in helpingto bring other designers into
(44:20):
projects, whether I'm designingthose shows or not.
Building teams of designers Iadmire or whose work I've envied
is a really interesting part ofthe job as well.
Speaker 6 (44:34):
So you get a little bit of input into the season
choices.
Are you ever like when theypresent something?
Are you like?
Are you kidding me?
Speaker 8 (44:42):
We can't do this.
This is a great example of that.
This is a great example of theDaVinci.
Speaker 6 (44:46):
Code itself no-transcript things like that.
(45:14):
How do you go about doing that?
Is it similar to actors?
Do they audition?
Do they send portfolios?
Speaker 8 (45:19):
Yeah, that's a great question, I mean, and anyone
working in this field, you know,spends a lot of their early
career figuring out how thisprocess works, and now that I'm
involved in this part of theprocess, a lot of my friends and
colleagues, fellow designers,who are veterans of the field,
come to me with curiosity howdoes this process work?
Because, you know, as a veryyoung, emerging designer, you
(45:43):
are sending out cover lettersand you are sending out your
portfolio and you are asking forinterviews.
That's certainly a part of theprocess, but anyone that works
in professional theater at thislevel knows that the job has
just sort of come to you.
You have a, you have a networkof associates.
Your name gets out there, andpeople become curious about
working with you and they askFor me.
(46:05):
I'll say that another part ofbeing a designer in this field,
though, is being really, reallyjealous of other people's work.
It's you spend a lot of timelooking, looking at portfolios,
looking at production photos,thinking, wow, that's a
beautiful shot.
Wow, who designed this project,and so part of the fun for me
(46:25):
of this position has been takingthat experience, the experience
of really just tracking what myfriends and colleagues are
doing and being excited andimpressed and often really super
jealous about how beautifultheir work is and then thinking,
well, wait a second.
Now I could say that thatdesigner, they'd be perfect for
this show and this lightingdesigner would be perfect for
understanding this set concept.
For instance, the lightingdesigner on this show is an old
friend of mine, tom Weaver, whoI thought of immediately when I
(46:47):
began designing this show, whenI began conceiving the stage
pictures that I had in mind forthe Dimitri Code.
There's a certain style, acertain sort of aggressive
spirit of experimentation in hislighting.
It's bold, it's noir-ish, it'snever tepid, and I knew
immediately that someone likeTom was the right guy for this
(47:08):
job.
Speaker 6 (47:08):
You know, lights are so critical.
I really think that, you know,I don't think that audiences
realize how much that plays intothe mood and the way that
things move through a play andthe way that you tell it, and I
think it's one of those artsthat people really don't think
about as hard as they probablyshould, because it is.
It can affect a performancejust as much as you know the
actors out there.
Speaker 8 (47:28):
Absolutely.
I mean the pure physics of itare.
You know, you the?
You only see what the lightingdesigner allows you to see, and
you only see things the way thelight, the way the actual light
hitting the object permits youto see.
It that you really begin tocultivate an affinity for
(47:49):
lighting designers that seem tounderstand your skin tone or the
kind of design ideas you haveas a designer.
A beautiful set could be,frankly, ruined by a lighting
designer who doesn't understandwhat the intention of the set is
, and vice versa.
The number of times I've comeup with something that I'm proud
of on stage and a lightingdesigner has surprised me with
how much better they make itlook or how well they understand
(48:12):
what we were going for.
Those experiences are great,and so it's part of the reason
why we have lots of partnershipsin theater that come up again
and again, why directors go backto certain actors repeatedly,
or why a lighting designer and aset designer may often find
themselves working together this.
Speaker 6 (48:30):
In this show you've got a couple of things.
I think that chris hutchinsit's his 100th show.
It's his 100th show and he'splaying silas.
He's playing silas, thevillainous monk, exactly.
So you've got to fight him in away that probably isn't
flattering the book he'sdescribed as albino, isn't he?
Speaker 8 (48:45):
he's albino in the book and he's and Paul Bettany,
who played him in the film, sortof carries, carries an albino
sort of quality.
I would.
Yeah, I would say that Chris'sperformance in this is just
terrific so far, and and it'salso just one of those roles
that makes me understand thatI'm not cut out to be an actor
the things that he has to do tohimself and the way he has to
(49:06):
present himself on stage andthis is before we get we were in
the theater with with the kindof aggressive lighting he's
going to be subject to is it's a, it's a pretty remarkable
surrender to the craft.
Speaker 6 (49:16):
Well, I'm definitely looking for that one.
That's going to be a toughcharacter to bring to life.
Well, what do you hope in thiscurrent show, the Da Vinci code
design wise?
How hope in this current show,the Da Vinci Code design-wise?
How do you hope that this, yourwork, kind of helps to tell the
story what?
Speaker 8 (49:32):
do you hope that the audience catches?
Ah, that's a good question.
Well, I would you know.
I would say first of all, onone hand, the show is, you know,
it's packed with technology.
We have big, moving scenery, wehave cutting edge lighting
equipment, powerful projectors.
At the same time, I'm reallyproud that the show is genuine
theater.
It's not just a movie on stage,it's terrific actors and
(49:52):
hands-on stagecraft working live.
I would point to something else,actually not my work
specifically, but anotherdesigner on the project's work.
We have a brilliant costumedesigner, helen Wong, and it's
interesting.
When you engage a story thathappens to be a pop culture
phenomenon, a lot of youraudience has expectations
because they know thesecharacters from the book or from
(50:15):
the film.
At the same time, um, you know,we have to do more than simply
recreate what tom hanks wore onscreen, and helen does such a
great job of distilling thespirit of these characters down,
giving everyone a fresh lookwhile still telling the story in
a way that feels familiar, andI am so proud of her and so
(50:35):
impressed with her work.
At the same time, I think I'vedone something along those lines
as well, created scenery andlocations on stage that are big
and that are spectacular butreally really couldn't be
further from a film set orcouldn't be further from just
(50:56):
taking these big iconiclocations and, brick by brick,
putting them on stage.
There's a lot of veryfigurative, figurative
composition in this piece from adesign perspective.
Lots of things that are verybut very much ask the audience
to fill in blanks with theireyes and with their mind in ways
(51:16):
that I think are really elegantand really interesting.
So I'm excited for people tocome in and see something which
is both big and also it's bigand it's spectacle driven but
also has some really reallyinteresting design ideas that
really lean into again what'sgreat about theater and film are
different mediums.
Speaker 6 (51:35):
Well, it's interesting.
What would you say?
And I'm just going to ask thissilly question Sure, do you
think it leans more towards thebook or the movie?
Speaker 8 (51:42):
That is a great question, you know, I'll say to
me it feels like it leans moretowards the book in pure content
.
But at the same time, you know,you can look at the film and
our stage adaptation as sort ofaccomplishing similar tasks.
(52:03):
Both say let's take this storyand let's bring it to life in an
exciting way.
And so I think that, you know,in that sense it feels parallel
to or adjacent to the film.
I think it lives alongside thefilm as another example of
taking these words on a page andsort of, you know, injecting
them and energizing them andmaking them real.
(52:23):
But again, I think what's sofun about it is the way you can
compare these media.
You can compare the way thenovel looks and feels and the
way the movie looks and feelsand the way our production looks
and feels, and reallyappreciate that it's the same
story and that the through linebetween them is Dan Brown's fun
(52:46):
ideas about these characters andthese locations and history,
and that you can experience thismovie, this book, this play in
three different ways.
Speaker 6 (52:53):
It's so fun I have.
My spouse loves to see themovie first and then go back and
read the book.
I am one of those people that Ihave to read the book first
because I don't want myinterpretation of this colored
by anyone else.
I want my imagination to go inthere.
So it's so fun when you get tosee somebody like yourself get
to bring this world to life andkind of design it for their own
(53:17):
space and the space that you'vebeen working in forever.
So it's very cool.
Thank you so much, Michael,Really looking forward to seeing
your work with this one and, ofcourse, the alley always just
excellent technical stuff.
I mean I couldn't be more proudof the work that the alley does
for the Houston community asfar as technical elements, and
so it's always impeccable.
So thank you for taking thetime to talk about it.
Speaker 8 (53:39):
I appreciate that.
Thank you, Come see the DaVinci Code everyone.
Speaker 6 (53:42):
Yes, september 19th through October 19th and I don't
know.
I have a feeling that they'llprobably add some more in there
somewhere.
Speaker 1 (53:56):
This has been Queer Voices, heard on KPFT Houston
and as a podcast available fromseveral podcasting sources.
Check our webpage queervoicesfor more information.
Queer Voices executive produceris Brian Levinka.
Deborah Moncrief-Bell isco-producer, brett Cullum and
(54:20):
David Mendoza-Druzman arecontributors.
The News Wrap segment is partof another podcast called this
Way Out, which is produced inLos Angeles.
Speaker 9 (54:31):
Some of the material in this program has been edited
to improve clarity and runtime.
This program does not endorseany political views or animal
species.
Views, opinions andendorsements are those of the
participants and theorganizations they represent.
In case of death, pleasediscontinue use and discard
remaining products.
Speaker 1 (54:44):
For Queer Voices.
I'm Glenn Holt.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist
It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com