April 9, 2024 • 44 mins
Amidst the political upheavals post-2016, non-binary and transgender rights have found a fierce ally in Sasha Buchert with Lambda Legal. Sasha and Brad delve into the evolving landscape of LGBTQ+ rights and representation. They shine a light on the progress made in the inclusion of LGBTQ+ individuals, while also addressing the challenges and discrimination by far-right groups, especially those faced by the trans and non-binary community. From the impact of local elections to the fight for gender-affirming care and the role of organizations like Lambda Legal, their conversation explores the complex and vital issues surrounding LGBTQ+ rights.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brad Shreve (00:00):
This is Queer we Are.
There are some great LGBTQorganizations and through this
podcast I've had the goodfortune to be acquainted with
some of the leaders of some ofthem, and they have given me
(00:22):
hope.
Organizations you've likelyheard of include the National
LGBTQ Task Force, GLAAD, TrevorProject, Lambda Legal, and then
there are all the equalities,such as Equality California,
equality Maine, equalityVirginia, equality Michigan, and
that list goes on.
But what do these organizationsdo?
I mean, sure you've heard aboutthem in the news, and you know
(00:46):
they're supporting the queercommunity and some are fighting
for our rights and you may haveeven donated to them.
I know I have.
But are you like me and notknow what it is they really?
Do, I mean really know?
If not, how can you appreciatethem as much as you probably
should?
(01:06):
On Queer, we Are my guestsaren't allowed to come on and
just complain about the way theworld is.
They're here to tell us whatthey're doing about it, what you
can do about it, and you get tohear some good news for a
change.
And you know, sometimes they'rejust here to entertain.
Simply.
This is a no-whining zone.
I have a representative of oneof the groups I listed here to
(01:27):
tell us what they're all about.
Sasha Buchert is a seniorattorney with Lambda Legal,
which was founded in 1985.
She joined them in 2017 whencompelled, when a certain
someone got into office.
No-transcript.
(02:06):
But also, what is Lambda Legaldoing about them and what you
can do, and some big wins we'vehad in recent years and you know
things have been tough, butthere have been more wins than
you think.
Before we get to Sasha, I'd liketo point something out I think
is important.
Before I give to any charity, Icheck them out on Charity
Navigator, which is a charityorganization of its own, and
(02:29):
what they do is rateorganizations based on their
financial transparency, theireffectiveness in the community.
A big one is the percentage ofmoney going to programs rather
than fundraising and operations.
I'm going to leave their linkin the show notes.
They give Lambda Legal awhopping 95% rating, which I
will say is more than prettydamn good, and I'm happy to hear
(02:49):
my dollars have been well spent.
But don't worry, that's just mylittle plug.
She didn't come on here tospend 40 minutes begging for
money, so I'm going to shut upnow because it's time to get to
her and you know where to findus.
I'm Brad Shreve and my guest isSasha Buchert, and you don't
have to go anywhere becauseQueer we Are.
(03:10):
Sasha Buchert, it's a pleasureto have you on, queer we Are.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Sasha Buchert (03:30):
Oh, thanks so much, Brad.
Brad Shreve (03:34):
Pleasure to be on the program.
You know, I know Lambda Legal.
I know that you guys do greatthings, but I really don't know
specifically what the goal ofthe organization is and I don't
know specifically what youexactly do, other than I see
great things that you guys do inthe news.
I'm sure others are just likeme.
What does Lambda Legal do?
Sasha Buchert (03:52):
Yeah, thanks, happy to answer that.
I've been here for going on sixyears now and every day I'm
even more impressed with thework the organization does.
We've been around since 1973.
And what we do is to advanceprotections for LGBTQ people and
people living with HIV throughimpact litigation is what we're
(04:14):
most known for.
We litigated Lawrence v Texas,for example, which was a case
that struck down sodomy laws,that criminalized intimacy among
same-sex couples back in theearly 2000s, for example.
But we also worked on Obergefellyou know, the marriage equality
decision landmark casesinvolving folks living with HIV,
like Bragdon v Abbott, and thelist is endless.
(04:37):
And just in the last few years,you know, there's been some huge
, groundbreaking cases that weworked on.
So that's what we're most knownfor.
But we also do a lot of work oneducation.
We know that it's so importantto win these battles in the
court, of course, but also towin in the court of public
opinion, and that means sharingwhat we know about the lives of
LGBTQ people and sharing storiesand really lifting up our
(04:57):
plaintiffs, for example, andtelling their stories and just
humanizing, you know, lgbtqfolks.
So there's a lot of work thatgoes into education and we also
work on public policy issues.
We are currently working arm inarm with our partners across
the country and seeking to pushback and defeat the anti-LGBTQ
legislation that is growingevery year, also working on
(05:20):
introducing legislation thatwill be helpful and shape folks'
lives in a number of differentareas.
So public policy, education and, most noticeably probably, is
our impact litigation.
Brad Shreve (05:31):
So you've done a couple things here and there
over the years.
Yeah, thank you for all thework you folks have done, and
I'm glad you have theeducational part in there,
because we can get all the lawspassed we want, but they don't
necessarily change hearts andminds.
Sasha Buchert (05:44):
Yeah, you know I'm a trans person and I
identify as a transgender womanand it's just, you know, really,
really important to me thatwhenever I do an interview, you
know I usually talk about transfolks in particular, just like a
lot of other folks.
You know, we have the samehopes and dreams.
We want a family, we like icecream, we like dogs.
Just the humanization is soimportant in this moment because
(06:06):
the far right, unfortunately,is really seizing the moment of
the unknowingness of trans folk.
Because we're just a smallerpopulation, it's just
mathematically really difficultto know a trans person.
In a lot of cases, a lot ofpeople do, because more and more
people have really been boldand have come out of the closet
and living openly as who theyare.
We're still a small population,so it's just so important to me
(06:29):
we take every opportunity to puta face on the issue and to make
sure that people understandthat there are real human beings
out there who are transgenderpeople, who are living lives,
trying to live lives withouthaving to look over the shoulder
in fear of discrimination.
So, just yeah, huge, huge, hugeprops to all of the people, all
of the trans people andnon-binary people across the
country who are doing thisreally important work in really
(06:51):
difficult parts of the country.
In some cases, you know wherethe hostility is so thick that
it's just really a challengingatmosphere.
But people are still, bravely,you know, going to their hostile
state legislatures, they'regoing to work, they're living
their lives openly and proudly.
So just huge hats off to all ofthe trans and non-binary folks
(07:13):
across the country that aredoing so much work to shift
public opinion and support fortrans and non-binary folks.
Brad Shreve (07:20):
Yeah, lgbtq people in general are under attack
right now.
But, oh my God, trans communityis just being brutalized and
I'll tell you my theory.
Sure, please.
My theory is it used to be allabout gays and lesbians because
trans is such a much smallercommunity, and then, once
marriage equality happened andpeople were like they live next
door to me, you know it's prettyokay.
(07:41):
I mean, I'm talking in generalterm here.
So then the right had to findsomebody new to brutalize.
Yeah, I was watching an oldepisode of Glee.
Yes, I'm gay.
Sasha Buchert (07:53):
And.
Brad Shreve (07:53):
Sue Sylvester was running for office and she
wasn't doing well in the pollsand she said you know what I've
been pushing for something?
I think I need to be againstsomething and what comes to the
folks on the right, that'sreally their whole mindset.
Sasha Buchert (08:07):
Yeah.
Brad Shreve (08:08):
What can we be against?
Do you think I'm on the right?
Sasha Buchert (08:10):
path I do.
I think there's a lot of.
You know I'm not a sociologist,I'm a lawyer, but you know,
give me my opinion.
I do think that there's anumber of factors at play.
I completely agree with you.
I think it's easier, easier tohate and fear than it is to love
and support, and I do thinkthat that's an easier way to
gain power to demonize, you know, rather than humanize.
But I think there's a number offactors at play.
(08:33):
Certainly there's been atrajectory from going, after I'm
old enough now, where I'velived through the marriage
equality fights and the way inwhich the far right talked about
LGB people back in the 90s lefta, you know, a mark on me
seeing the pain and sufferingthat folks went through during
that period.
And you're right, the targetshave shifted to trans and
non-binary folks.
But I think it's reallyimportant, especially in this
(08:54):
moment.
I think that that would havehappened anyway, but I think
it's really been escalated,driven by a number of different
factors.
I think one is loss of abortionas a political rallying.
It's like the dog that caughtthe car.
They got the Supreme Courtdecision and now they're finding
out as the president just said,the state of the union what the
consequences of that are goingto be, and my point is that
(09:16):
they've lost that issue todivide folks.
So they are certainly goingafter trans folks, but I think
it's also important to emphasizethat they haven't stopped going
after people of color.
Racism and discriminationagainst folks of color in this
country, you know, has come along way, but it's so clear that
(09:36):
there is still so muchdiscrimination that exists, you
know, on that front.
In addition, look at the attackson women still not just
abortion protections, but IVFprotections or access to
contraceptive care.
It's all at attack from the farright.
They go after what I view asbodily autonomy.
(09:57):
In many ways it's just thefreedom to live and make
decisions about your own body,and it's about control.
I think too.
I know that you know we want totalk about what we can do as a
community, but I think it's justimportant to point these things
out, because I do think that ifyou look at these attacks as a
whole, you see that they're just.
You know, it's just this nonstopattack on freedom and liberty.
(10:19):
It's not just bans on healthcare, it's bans on sports, it's
bans on bathrooms, it's bans ondrag queens, it's bans on pride
flags.
I'm surprised they haven'ttried to ban dancing.
It's really clear to me thatthis is an all-out assault on
freedom, and I think there'sanother reason for it, too that
doesn't get discussed as oftenbut feels really important to me
(10:40):
, because I feel like it's partof our democracy is the way in
which a lot of these placeswhere this legislation is really
causing the most harm areplaces where political
gerrymandering has caused theleast ability for people to rise
up and stand up against theseattacks, because of the way in
which these state legislaturesare formed and congressional
delegations.
(11:00):
So I think that's a reallyimportant piece of this our
voting rights.
Brad Shreve (11:04):
To make a long story short, I'd definitely like
to keep the show on thepositive, but we have to talk
about what's going on, to knowwe're going to go Doing what I
do here.
I've gotten to know a lot offolks like yourself that are
really out there doing somegreat things and people need to
be reminded of that and that'swhy I have this show.
It's funny you brought upracism.
My husband's a black man and welive with his mother.
We help care for her, and theydo it jokingly because otherwise
(11:30):
they'd cry.
They just roll their eyes andlike, yeah, we know what it
means to say bring America backagain.
Sasha Buchert (11:33):
You know, we all know what that means.
Brad Shreve (11:35):
You mentioned gerrymandering and everything.
The polls overwhelmingly well.
In some polls it depends onwhat we're looking at.
Marriage equality is very high.
The country supports it.
Even Republicans are frustratedat what DeSantis is doing.
But trans is lower in the pollsbut still shows the majority of
(11:56):
Americans support trans rights.
But they cheat, gerrymanderingand all this other garbage.
It's just.
It's sickening to run on aplatform that people are against
because for your own agendathat's not representation, is it
?
Sasha Buchert (12:08):
No, and they don't even try to pretend.
I don't know why I wasexpecting anything different,
but after the 2016 election, Iwas just so stunned to see
then-President Trump talking ina way that was really only
speaking to one small part ofthe country, and at least prior
administrations, who had fairlyhostile views towards LGBTQ
(12:30):
people, pretended to talk to theentire country and to speak for
the entire country, but thisjust was a.
I viewed it as a perspectivewhere the winner takes all and
if you didn't vote for me,you're not going to look at,
you're not my constituent andI'm not going to do anything for
you, and, in fact, I'm going togo after you is the sense I'm
getting from a lot ofpoliticians, how they view their
jobs as legislators, which isreally disappointing.
Brad Shreve (12:52):
It really is.
I always tell people mylisteners have heard me say this
before it's Obama's fault,because he was in there for two
great terms and they were like,no, we can't have this happen.
And it was a rebound.
It was a rebound effect andthis minority of people have,
well, they've done a great jobof getting into our school
boards.
We had our, we had ourbackstern while they were
(13:15):
sneaking into the school boardsand and getting the local
communities and people don'tvote in the local elections and
they're they're so important.
You know, I I don't understand,understand why people don't get
, why it's so important.
You know who's the mayoraffects me more on a day-to-day
basis than who's the presidentand, my God, the school boards
have changed all these policiesand it's insane.
(13:37):
So, yeah, we know what they'redoing and I want to get to some
of the good things that aregoing on.
But it was in the right, afterthe 19, the 20, I'm sorry, 19,
16, the 2016 election, that youdecided to go with Lambda Legal,
am I correct?
Sasha Buchert (13:51):
That's right.
That's right.
Yep 2017,.
I came to Lambda Legal in thesummer of 2017.
And I was here, probably likeless than a month, and Trump
issued his tweets abouttransgender military service.
Issued his tweets abouttransgender military service.
I was just sitting in my officelooking at Twitter and just
absolutely aghast and realizedhow bad things were going to be
at that moment.
Brad Shreve (14:12):
I presume you're still on Twitter.
Sasha Buchert (14:14):
I am not.
I haven't closed down myaccount, but I rarely go and
look at it, only when there'ssome massive news story.
That's pretty rare.
I don't really take a back anddisgusted by the owner's
statements about trans folks andtrans issues, so I just don't
have the heart to.
You know, I enjoyed a few greatyears on that platform and had
(14:36):
some amazing conversations andit was a really important tool,
but the way in which it's beentransformed into this really
hostile, unmoderated climate runby a person who is clearly
hostile to trans folks, you know, left me with a bad taste in my
mouth and I go back maybe onceor twice a year, the most.
Brad Shreve (14:57):
I suspend my account.
You're allowed to suspend itfor 30 days, so every 28 days I
go back and reenact it and putit on suspension again Because I
keep thinking someday eitherit's going to go run in the
ground or maybe somebody sayingwe'll buy it and I don't want to
lose my name.
Yeah, so I do the same thing.
The reason I was thinking maybeyou were on there.
I thought maybe your job.
You have to kind of know what'sgoing on, but you're not
(15:17):
getting the pulse of the nation.
You're getting the pulse of thenation.
You know Exactly, exactly.
So you are the director ofLambda Legal's Non-Binary and
Transgender Rights Project andit used to be called the
(15:39):
Transgender Rights Project andit's been changed to Non-Binary.
And for me personally and I'mgoing to assume other people are
like me, in fact I'll be veryblunt.
I'm always very open about this, because anybody who knows me
will find this hard to believe Iwas really uncomfortable with
trans Once I got to know sometrans folks.
Well, now I'm not going to saynon-binary is the same thing,
(16:00):
but people like nice littleblack and white bodies.
Yeah, and you know, okay, male,female, but non-binary.
Wait a minute, can you explaina non-binary to us?
Yeah, for sure.
What's a society view on binary?
Sasha Buchert (16:18):
Yeah, I think it's not the same.
I think comparisons aren'tgreat, you know, but I think one
way to understand it is tounderstand the experience of
bisexual people, who often geterased when talking about, you
know, binaries of being gay orstraight.
Brad Shreve (16:34):
Well, bisexuals don't exist, you know.
They have to make a choice.
Sasha Buchert (16:39):
They're just really gay.
They're just really lesbian.
They're just really straight.
I'm just really lesbian.
They're just really straight.
Brad Shreve (16:43):
I'm still floored when I hear that I'm like what?
Sasha Buchert (16:47):
Yeah, it's the same thing with non-binary folks
to some degree.
You know, I think that somepeople just don't identify as
male or female and they do fallin between.
You know, I think that thinkingabout sex and gender, sexuality
and gender as these binary,oppositional poles isn't that
helpful.
I think that, going back to theKinsey Institute, I think that,
(17:07):
whatever people want to admit,I think it's pretty clear that
these issues are, you know, fallon a spectrum and there are
people that just don't identifyas female, they don't identify
as male, and that experienceshould be honored.
You know, and I'm grateful foryou saying you know what you've
said, because I think thatthat's probably the experience
of a lot of people and itprovides a model for people to
(17:28):
see.
You know and I've experiencedit in my own life and with
different issues it can be achallenge sometimes to overcome
some of those ways in which weframe the world and talk about
the trans community being small.
the non-binary community isminuscule compared to that, you
know.
So it's really important thatwe in the same way that, you
know, the trans communitydoesn't want to be erased as
(17:49):
part of the LGBTQ community it'sjust really important that we
have a broad tent and make surethat we're including non-binary
folks as part of this.
You know there's been a lot ofreally great policy movement
forward on behalf of non-binaryfolks.
You know, not just in the USbut around the world.
Asports have had ex-gendermarkers now for maybe a decade
(18:11):
in places like India andAustralia as a result of some
Lambda legal litigation.
Actually, we have ex-gendermarkers here as of I think three
years ago now.
So that's exciting and there'sa lot of other wonderful
advocacy being done, but it issomething to grapple with.
I think it's helpful for folksSometimes.
There's a lot of educationalmaterials out there that can
(18:32):
help people understand a littlebetter who non-binary people are
, but I hope that helps explainit a little bit.
Brad Shreve (18:38):
Yes, it does.
I will say one thing I'm happyto see about non-binary like
marriage equality is a goodexample.
When we were trying to getmarriage equality passed,
unfortunately, all of a suddenit became LGB, because they
wanted to make sure that we gotour rights and they didn't think
.
Some organizations I'm going tosay some organizations wanted
to ensure that we got our rightsand they're like you know,
(18:59):
we're not going to get it withtrans, so we're just going to go
forward and trans community gotpushed to the wayside and it's
paying for it now.
I'm happy to see non-binarybeing pulled in, really before
that happens.
Yeah, I hope we learned fromthat.
Sasha Buchert (19:13):
Yeah, I think we did.
I think the state of the union,state of the LGBTQ union, is
pretty solid right now.
You know, I'm not saying therearen't people that have strong
feelings, but overall I thinkyou know there's a lot of, I
think there's been a realmovement towards that and I hope
that continues.
Yeah for sure.
Brad Shreve (19:30):
If you can elaborate more on that as far as
how you see more inclusiontoday than what it used to be,
Well on a number of fronts.
Sasha Buchert (19:37):
First of all, I think that people especially
since 2020, people have become alot more cognizant about the.
You know, we talked aboutracism a while back and I think
it's just really important to.
I think a foundationalunderstanding that I think is
shared by most of theorganizations is that the folks
that we should be doing work onon behalf of the most impacted
(19:57):
and that should drive what we doimpacted and that should drive
what we do and clearly the folksthat are most impacted are
folks of color and specificallytrans folks of color, trans
women of color.
You know they sit on thisfiring line between racism,
homophobia, transphobia, sexism.
So I think there's been just alot of work.
I'm not saying a lot of itisn't performative or just lip
(20:17):
service and that doesn'tnecessarily lead to the change
that we would love to see in theworld, but I think there's a
lot more effort.
Anyway, I don't know about theresults I'll leave that for
someone else to assess but Ithink that there at least is a
conversation happening aboutmaking sure that there's
thoughtfulness aroundinclusivity and the work that we
do, whether it's the litigation, public policy work, whether
(20:38):
it's a panel.
You know you want to make surethat you've got folks of color
represented and you want to makesure that there are diverse
experiences.
So I feel like that's one pieceof it.
I think that there's been, youknow, a sea change in interest
and conversations around transand non-binary folks across the
country.
You know, I think you know, Italk to law firms all the time
and they're super excited aboutthese issues and part of it is
(20:59):
their interest in litigation, ofcourse, but I think just
generally, and so I think I'mhopeful that that will continue.
I'm not saying that therearen't problems there are, you
know, that need to be worked on,but I think that the trend is
favorable.
You know, I don't want to beoverly Pollyannish about it
again, no-transcript.
(21:28):
You know where I do feel likethere is a positive trajectory.
Brad Shreve (21:32):
Yeah, as much as it feels like we've been pushed
back and we have nowhere nearwhat it was 30 years ago, right,
and it's easy to lose sight ofthat.
Sasha Buchert (21:40):
There it is.
I was just thinking the otherday.
I was like thinking about allof the amazing.
I don't know them by nameSomebody will have to check me
on this but I know that thereare amazing openly trans
performers that you know doamazing pop music and are models
and in almost every you knowrealm of public life.
(22:03):
When I was growing up, it waspretty much Renee Richards, you
know.
So I think that that's a hugechange culturally and I think
that this is to some degree, youknow, laverne Cox, of course,
and Janet Mock, and I just Idon't want to start leave
somebody out, but there's justendless amount of amazing folks.
I think part of you know theanti-trans stuff that we're
(22:24):
seeing is really backlash,because I think people, wherever
you look, of LGBTQ people, is athreat to the view of America
as something that it never was.
So I think that's part of it.
(22:48):
But, yeah, again, I'm a veryoptimistic person and, like you,
I think that it's a difficultand dark moment, to be sure, but
I think the overall arc here isgood.
Brad Shreve (23:00):
Well, you brought up the pop figures that are
trans and how they're beingembraced.
A lot of that is the Gen Z andsome of the younger Gen X.
Their attitude Are yousurprised by how embracing they
are?
They don't even want to becalled gay or trans.
They're like we don't wantthose labels, we just want to be
.
Sasha Buchert (23:20):
Yeah, which is amazing, which is wonderful, you
know.
I mean I have gripes, as everylawyer does.
I think it's wonderful and it'sgreat and it's sweet and the
numbers give me a lot of hopeevery day when I think about the
next generations.
One I would love to see more ofthem vote.
I went through a training a fewmonths ago and it was just so
(23:43):
depressing to understand how fewfolks that are under 30 vote.
The numbers are really reallystunning and it's just that's
got to change.
You want to see aed in the NewYork Times talking about the
movie that was released prettyrecently with Will Ferrell who
(24:04):
traveled across the country witha trans woman.
I haven't seen it yet but it's adocumentary and it's supposed
to be pretty great.
And you know, he kind ofparalleled a little bit like the
rising visibility of transfolks overall and contrasted
that with the attacks you know,and said that visibility.
I think the thesis mostly wasthat visibility isn't going to
save us here.
We need to have people engagedand active.
(24:26):
So you know, as much as Iappreciate the way in which the
youth have really embracedfreedom and have chosen to live
openly and authentically andlive lives that you know we
could have only imagined acouple of decades ago.
I do hope that they willtranslate more of that into
action, because there's a lot ofpeople suffering in this moment
and I know we'll come throughit and you know we'll be better
(24:46):
for it.
But I just want to remindpeople that there's a lot of
harm being done in the meantimeand whatever work you can do to
advance things in this momentwill diminish that harm and
suffering that people areexperiencing.
Brad Shreve (25:00):
When I talked to Brian Sims, the former
Pennsylvania congressperson,state congressperson and is now
doing advocacy work, he gave mehope because I brought up the
voting of the young people.
Democrats since probablyKennedy, have worked very hard
to get the younger generation tovote and they kind of gave up
because they realized it's a lotof money and a lot of work and
they've had little result.
(25:21):
And yeah, we need them to votemore.
But we saw in the last, themost recent elections that more
are voting.
The percentage has gone updramatically because it was so
low.
You know, it has gone updramatically.
And I said to Brian I said youknow it's because these kids
don't care and Brian goes no,they do care, that's why they're
(25:42):
voting now.
They do care.
Sasha Buchert (25:44):
Yeah.
Brad Shreve (25:45):
And I hope that's a trend that continues.
Sasha Buchert (25:47):
Yeah, me too.
I really do.
I hope it does.
I also hope it does we're doing.
You know it's so important thatpeople remember to register and
to vote.
It makes a world of differenceand, as you said earlier, not
just the presidential elections.
You know, the local, like allpolitics, is local, as they say,
and that's just so key.
So, yeah, please, please,please, please, take a moment.
(26:08):
You know you want to be activeand want to support your
community and women and peopleof color and trans and
non-binary people, and you wantto make a difference.
Easiest thing you can do is tovote and the most important
thing you can do is to vote.
The easiest thing you can do isto vote.
Brad Shreve (26:20):
And the most important thing you can do is to
vote.
So this is going to seem like asilly question.
After four years of anightmarish person in the White
House he that shall not be named, how does it feel like the
other day when LGBT community ismentioned in Biden's State of
the Union address?
Sasha Buchert (26:35):
Loved it.
You know I think it's soimportant.
I mean the Biden administrationhas done the Biden-Harris
administration.
I want to make sure we givecredit to the vice president,
who is absolutely wonderful andhas been doing so much really
important work on reproductivefreedom.
I think that it's reassuring.
You know, I'm the kind of personthat likes to look at action
over words, necessarily, butjust calling out trans people is
(26:59):
just so important.
It's part of that humanizationwork that I was talking about
earlier.
You know, just saying the wordtrans, I mean we know that the
last administration tried to banthe word transgender and we've
seen that in state legislationacross the country where you
know they will never say theword transgender because it's
humanizing.
You know it puts a face on theissue.
So I think just saying that andhe got some heat for it, you
(27:21):
know there's some far rightfolks that were, you know,
complaining that he mentioned usas human beings.
So I can hear my old boss in myear who always said make sure
you bring judicial nominationsto the dance.
(27:44):
So just really excited aboutthe progress that's been made on
the federal judiciary.
People forget that those folksare lifetime appointments,
meaning that they could be onthe bench after three, four
different, five differentadministrations change over and
they'll still be there and someof the folks that we saw
nominated and confirmed in thelast administration, you know,
(28:07):
had very clear records of theirhostility towards LGBTQ people.
So I was just really gratefulto the diversity of nominees
that the administration putforward.
You know there were so manyfolks amazing folks of color,
clearly qualified folks for thejob but you know there were so
many folks amazing folks ofcolor, clearly qualified folks
(28:28):
for the job, but you know, alsodiverse and not necessarily
always coming from white shoe.
You know whatever that term isfor corporate law firms.
You know there are a lot ofpeople who worked at public
defender firms and just amazingdiversity in both the profession
and the demographics that wesaw.
Still waiting for the firsttrans and non-binary nominee.
There's never been a nominee.
Even so, I'm just hoping thatby the end of the year that
(28:48):
somebody gets nominated.
I would really love to see thatbecause I think that that's
again part of the work Make suresomebody's qualified.
They have to be able to do thejob, but it would just be lovely
to make sure that that happenssometime soon.
But a lot of LGBTQ, lgb,wonderful nominees that have
been nominated and confirmedover the last three years and so
hopefully that will continue.
And that's really importantagain because a lot of these
(29:10):
decisions that work their way upthrough the courts don't all
necessarily get to the SupremeCourt.
The Supreme Court is surely thelast law of the land but a lot
of places, a lot of cases.
They only take about 100 cases.
So, like you know, tens ofthousands of cases end up in the
different circuit courts,meaning you know there's 13
(29:30):
different circuit courts aroundthe country.
Some of these issues reallyimportant issues on civil rights
issues like guns and LGBTQissues and reproductive freedom
you know a whole host ofdifferent issues get decided at
that level and might not evermake it to the Supreme Court or
might not make it for decades,meaning that if it's a, you know
, really horrific policy, itjust stays in place, you know,
(29:51):
in that part of the country,which is really harmful.
So really excited to see thechanges.
To make a life story short,sorry to go on so long about
this, but in the federaljudiciary and hoping to see a
lot more.
Brad Shreve (30:01):
I hope so too, and you know we have two lesbian
governors now and it's not goingto happen as fast as you and I
would like it to, because wewant it to happen now.
Sasha Buchert (30:08):
I think we'll see a trans governor before too
long.
Brad Shreve (30:10):
I think it'll happen in my lifetime.
Sasha Buchert (30:12):
Well, yeah, we had so many firsts that have
like came in the last election Ican't even remember them all
for non-binary and trans folks Iwas.
Yeah, you're right, you know,there's a first.
There's a trans woman runningfor the first congressional seat
up in Pennsylvania, sarahMcBride, and there's some other
folks that I believe areconsidering runs too, across the
country, so hopefully we'll seeour first congressperson, which
(30:34):
would be amazing, you know.
So, yeah, you're right, there'sso many ceilings to break here,
so I'm just excited to see thetrajectory for the community.
Brad Shreve (30:42):
And I think one of the reasons why we've seen so
many that were successful andgot elected is because we had so
many that were like wait aminute, this has got to stop.
And they ran yeah, so we needmore people running.
And again back to the localelections.
I think back to thelibertarians, when they had a
lot more strength, and what thelibertarians were doing were
(31:04):
they said we need to startlocally.
They were running for localoffice, they were running for
state and they were reallygaining some power and then, for
some reason, that changed.
I don't know whose decision itwas.
They start focusing on thepresidential, like all their
attention and it fell apart.
I mean, they're still around,but they're not nearly as strong
as they used to be, which youcan be saying that's a plus or
negative right now I embracelibertarians compared to what we
have, but I think that we couldlearn a lesson from that.
Sasha Buchert (31:25):
Yes, absolutely To paraphrase the president,
folks, here's the thing.
Most of most of you probablydon't know and this is just
being completely honest withyourself who your state
legislator is or your statesenator, and that's just the
facts.
So that just is a clear sign tome that you're right.
We have turned away from, youknow, local elections and have
(31:47):
turned to the big shinypresidential elections or maybe
the Senate elections at the most, and it's just so important
because there are so many, youknow, positive changes that you
can make you know on the locallevel and your voice is so
important.
It's just really important thatpeople get involved and know who
your state legislator is.
You can Google it and you canenter your zip code and you can
(32:09):
find out and contact them andask them what they're doing to
support LGBTQ people.
At least know who they are andconsider a run yourself.
Like you said, you're right,people have been mobilized and
they're activated and hopefullyit's not just trans and
non-binary folks.
Hopefully we're seeing moreLGBT, lgb candidates as well, as
you know, women and people ofcolor, and you know this country
needs to.
(32:29):
I hope just more people getexcited about the prospect of
running for something and getinvolved and start going to city
council meetings.
Get to know who people are andmake your move.
Brad Shreve (32:39):
And I'm going to give a great example of why I
think this is important.
I'm trying to drill this inpeople's heads.
Sean Struve is a perfectexample.
Sean founded Paz Magazine andcontinues to do some great
advocacy work.
He is mayor of a small town inPennsylvania in a very red
community.
And what happened when?
There was something thathappened with the mayor and he
(32:59):
wasn't necessarily just put intoplace, but it was pretty easy
for him to become mayor and thenwhen it came time for the next
election, he easily won and hesaid because people realize it,
who cares who I'm married to?
Their trash was being picked up, yeah, you know.
And they realized everythingwas OK.
If more and more people can seethat and feel comfortable, ok,
(33:20):
we have a gay mayor.
Ok, we have a gay mayor.
Okay, we have a trans statelegislator and the world's not
falling apart and lightningdidn't strike me and then
they'll start being morecomfortable for national Senate,
national Congress, people andthe president.
Sasha Buchert (33:34):
Yeah, yeah, it's just getting over that initial
hurdle, you know.
After that it's the question isare they doing their job or not
?
Brad Shreve (33:39):
Absolutely so.
Tell us some other good thingsthat are happening, because we
need to hear the good stuff.
I look through the differentonline LGBTQ magazines and, if I
dig, I actually started anewsletter for a while, but I
was just too busy writing novels.
I had to dig to find the goodnews, but there was a lot of it,
and because it doesn't sell, itdoesn't sell, so we were being
(34:02):
drummed out of the servicebefore we got involved with our
(34:23):
litigation and those folks arenow protected.
Sasha Buchert (34:26):
You know, we have a saying here where we lean in
on science and not stigma.
You know, and that's led to asea change in the way that the
DOD handles folks who are livingwith HIV in the military and
there's litigation now focusedon people that are seeking to
enlist in the military that areliving with HIV.
You know, there's just a lot ofmisinformation and confusion
(34:48):
and biased reasoning, in myopinion, with regard to not just
gender affirming, not just withpeople living with HIV, but
also with gender affirming care.
So I feel like that's just athat's a huge victory.
That's a little bit not told asoften, but but a huge victory
for the community.
We've also seen enormous drives, you know, with regard to the
bans on health care for transminors overall.
(35:10):
You know the number of statesfrom really conservative judges
and really conservative parts ofthe country who have issued,
you know, injunctions, keepingyou know those laws from going
into effect is just absolutelystunning with really powerful
reasoning.
That is so important becausethose district court judges you
know the trial court level, notto bore people with procedure,
but there's three differentlevels, you know.
(35:31):
There's the trial court, theappeals court and then the
Supreme Court and the trialcourt is the court that hears
directly from witnesses and theyhear from the plaintiffs
themselves, they hear from thedefendants.
Those are the people that areclosest to the facts and in
these cases, you know, they'veheard from families over and
over and over again, and they'veheard from the folks who are
trying to inflict these bans andthey have, you know, repeatedly
(35:55):
, almost universally, held thatyou know these laws likely
violate the Constitution andhave enjoined them from going
into effect and there's beensome appellate courts that have
ruled otherwise, unfortunately,that have watered down some of
those really amazing decisionsNot all of them, but you know
some of them.
But I think that one of the bigvictories out of that is the
humanization of trans people,first of all because they're,
(36:17):
you know, folks are going to thecourtroom and telling their
stories and the media iscovering this and people are
recognizing that.
You know what's really afoothere.
So there's just been a lot ofprogress in the way that people
understand trans people and careneeded to treat gender
dysphoria.
Since I've been doing this work, you know the amount of
hostility people have towardsyou know that care, in
(36:38):
particular, is stunning to me.
It's the same care, becauseit's the same care in a lot of
cases.
That's frequently provided tonon-transgender people.
You know, cisgender peoplenon-transgender people, you know
undergo hormone care for anynumber of reasons.
It's endless, you know.
And same with puberty blockersA lot of reasons kids undertake
that care.
It's demonstrated to beclinically effective for trans
(37:00):
people.
But it's just anyway, to make along story short, just the.
There's been a huge change in,I think, the way the
conversation around these issuesand people are understanding,
you know, the medical necessityand the clinical effectiveness
and really has started to pokeholes in the junk science that
you know is often used to framethese issues.
So there's a.
Those are a couple of reallythose are probably the most
(37:21):
significant victories I thinkthat we've experienced.
We are seeing victories.
We want a really greatinjunction.
We filed a lawsuit in responseto a don't say gay bill that was
passed in Iowa last year andwe've challenged that and it's
such a ridiculous attack, in myopinion, because everybody has a
gender identity and everybodyhas a sexual orientation.
(37:42):
It would be, you know, it'sjust they don't want to come out
and say that they're justtargeting LGBT people, so they
pretend it's this curriculumissue and we want a really
amazing injunction keeping thatlaw from going into effect while
the litigation proceeds.
So it's another victory thatwe've just seen.
You know and again I think I'mgoing back to the larger picture
I'm not saying it will continueand the burden is on the folks
(38:05):
in this country that want tocontinue to live in a democracy,
but you know, we have seenpositive results.
The midterm election isn't anelection that usually goes the
way in which it did during apresidential administration
during a presidentialadministration.
So I think that there'ssomething great to be said about
people's awareness of what'sgoing on.
(38:26):
Sometimes I worry that peopleare not really paying attention,
but then, you know, the lastthree elections have consoled me
in that people are watching andthey are paying attention, but
it's just so important thatpeople stay vigilant.
So those are a few things thatI can, you know, probably
mention a few more, but it'sjust so important that people
stay vigilant.
So those are a few things thatI can probably mention a few
more, but those are things thatare really top of mind right now
.
Brad Shreve (38:46):
Well, I'm glad you brought up the courts, because
one thing I don't think peoplerealize we hear about all these
bills that are going across thecountry and it's just outrageous
the number, but I don't thinkpeople realize how much the
courts have said no, yeah,they've really done their job of
standing as the bulwark Arethere any that surprised you A
lot?
Yeah.
Sasha Buchert (39:05):
Like I said, you know we've had courts and we had
judges that were appointed inthe last administration in
places like Tennessee.
Tennessee is really aconservative, deep red state
with a court that was appointedby you know last administration
who actually ruled against us inanother case, issued this
really powerful decision onbehalf of trans kids in health
(39:27):
care that was 60, 70 pages longand looked in detail at all of
the issues and issued thisreally rock-solid,
well-thought-out, well-reasoneddecision that was really
powerful.
It got reversed by the SixthCircuit, but it was just a
really amazing decision.
So that's one example.
There was a decision in Alabama, similarly holding that you
(39:50):
know its discrimination.
There was a decision inArkansas.
Arkansas, tennessee and Alabamaare not the states that jump out
at you as places where you'regoing to have judges that would
stereotypically be moresupportive, and all of the
judges in those cases, I believe, were well, at least two of
them were, you know, judges thatwere appointed by, you know,
republican administrations.
(40:11):
Those are some examples, youknow.
Just it's the same conversationI was having about things to be
positive about.
So I think that's certainlybeen surprising and I think
that'll continue, just becauseit's just such a clear cut issue
and such a clear cut attackoverall.
Brad Shreve (40:27):
I've seen a lot of people mobilize, but I have also
seen probably an equal numberof people that really are ready
to wave the right flag.
They don't see any hope.
You obviously have hope.
Or you wouldn't be doing whatyou're doing, oh yeah, why
should I have hope?
You should have hope.
Or you wouldn't be doing whatyou're doing, oh yeah, why
should I have hope?
Sasha Buchert (40:43):
You should have hope because, again, look at the
last three elections, look atthe trajectory that we've been
talking about and the arc of.
You know I don't want to use DrMartin Luther King Jr's
language, but there is progressthat's being made here and you
have to.
You know, nobody said civilrights was going to be easy or
human rights is going to be easy.
But in times when democracy ischallenged and civil rights are
(41:05):
challenged in this way, it's soimportant that people don't let
down their guard.
They have to stand up and youhave to fight and you have to
push back and you have to bevisible and you have to do the
hard work.
We've gotten a little spoiled.
I think there is a threat rightnow to our future and our
children's future, and it's justso important.
But I think people should havehope.
If you look at the past andwhere we are now, there's just
(41:28):
so many things to be excitedabout and the hope we can
continue to provide leadershipto not just protect ourselves
and for our country, but for theworld.
You know we're seeing similarissues around the world, with
growing autocracy and thediminishment of civil and human
rights in a lot of differentplaces, and I think you know,
(41:48):
the more we can stand up and dowhat we can do now, creating a
better future for a lot ofpeople.
One thing that doesn't getdiscussed as much that I would
love to infuse into thediscussion a little bit is
people being a little morecognizant about where they're
spending their money into thediscussion a little bit is
people being a little morecognizant about where they're
spending their money?
You know you can go toopensecretsorg and you can find
out who's donating.
I was going to ask what peopleyeah find out which companies
(42:10):
are giving.
I'm not asking people to boycottthis or that company, but at
least be aware of whichcompanies are supporting the
politicians that are causing themost harm in this moment.
I think that businesses youknow have some accountability
and I think it's reallyimportant that people understand
who they're supporting and beaware you know of when you buy
that toilet paper at the store.
(42:30):
You know where does that moneygo.
What is it?
What does it support?
I don't know about you, but I'mreally sick of billionaires
using their money to attackcivil and human rights, and we
give them the ability to do thatwhenever we take out our
wallets.
Brad Shreve (42:44):
And it is hard to boycott, because I like to use
Ben and Jerry's as an example.
Ben and Jerry's, when theystarted, was a very liberal
company and it's part of theirmarketing.
They still are a very liberalcompany.
Unfortunately, now they'reowned by a very conservative
corporation that does a lot ofbad environmentally, so it makes
it tough.
But when you have groups likeChick-fil-A or Hobby Lobby,
(43:06):
where it's clear as day, that'swhere you know.
I was actually going to askwhat people can do to support
what you're doing.
Sasha Buchert (43:13):
Oh, great, you can support land illegal.
I love that financially, youknow, or otherwise.
But I think that things peoplecan be doing you know include
number one voting register tovote and vote.
Register to vote and vote.
Number two find out who yourstate legislators are.
You can just Google, find mystate legislator, find out who
they are.
I'm not even asking you to callthem, you know, just find out
(43:35):
who they are.
Because as soon as you know whothey are, you'll get more
plugged in.
Go to a city council meeting,get more involved locally.
And the third thing would bejust looking at where you're
spending your money.
Brad Shreve (43:47):
Well, thank you for your time.
It's been great talking to you.
You've made me feel hopeful.
Sasha Buchert (43:51):
Back at you.
Thanks, Brad.
When people are looking for newpodcasts and come upon choices
odd or good, they'll hit play onthe one with the most reviews,
especially if they're positive.
So please head over to ApplePodcasts, itunes or whichever
app you're using and let othersknow about Queer we Are by
leaving a review.
This is Queer we Are.
There are some great LGBTQorganizations and through this
podcast I've had the goodfortune to be acquainted with
some of the leaders of some ofthem, and they have given me
(00:22):
hope.
Organizations you've likelyheard of include the National
LGBTQ Task Force, GLAAD, TrevorProject, Lambda Legal, and then
there are all the equalities,such as Equality California,
equality Maine, equalityVirginia, equality Michigan, and
that list goes on.
But what do these organizationsdo?
I mean, sure you've heard aboutthem in the news, and you know
(00:46):
they're supporting the queercommunity and some are fighting
for our rights and you may haveeven donated to them.
I know I have.
But are you like me and notknow what it is they really?
Do, I mean really know?
If not, how can you appreciatethem as much as you probably
should?
(01:06):
On Queer, we Are my guestsaren't allowed to come on and
just complain about the way theworld is.
They're here to tell us whatthey're doing about it, what you
can do about it, and you get tohear some good news for a
change.
And you know, sometimes they'rejust here to entertain.
Simply.
This is a no-whining zone.
I have a representative of oneof the groups I listed here to
(01:27):
tell us what they're all about.
Sasha Buchert is a seniorattorney with Lambda Legal,
which was founded in 1985.
She joined them in 2017 whencompelled, when a certain
someone got into office.
No-transcript.
(02:06):
But also, what is Lambda Legaldoing about them and what you
can do, and some big wins we'vehad in recent years and you know
things have been tough, butthere have been more wins than
you think.
Before we get to Sasha, I'd liketo point something out I think
is important.
Before I give to any charity, Icheck them out on Charity
Navigator, which is a charityorganization of its own, and
(02:29):
what they do is rateorganizations based on their
financial transparency, theireffectiveness in the community.
A big one is the percentage ofmoney going to programs rather
than fundraising and operations.
I'm going to leave their linkin the show notes.
They give Lambda Legal awhopping 95% rating, which I
will say is more than prettydamn good, and I'm happy to hear
(02:49):
my dollars have been well spent.
But don't worry, that's just mylittle plug.
She didn't come on here tospend 40 minutes begging for
money, so I'm going to shut upnow because it's time to get to
her and you know where to findus.
I'm Brad Shreve and my guest isSasha Buchert, and you don't
have to go anywhere becauseQueer we Are.
(03:10):
Sasha Buchert, it's a pleasureto have you on, queer we Are.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
Sasha Buchert (03:30):
Oh, thanks so much, Brad.
Brad Shreve (03:34):
Pleasure to be on the program.
You know, I know Lambda Legal.
I know that you guys do greatthings, but I really don't know
specifically what the goal ofthe organization is and I don't
know specifically what youexactly do, other than I see
great things that you guys do inthe news.
I'm sure others are just likeme.
What does Lambda Legal do?
Sasha Buchert (03:52):
Yeah, thanks, happy to answer that.
I've been here for going on sixyears now and every day I'm
even more impressed with thework the organization does.
We've been around since 1973.
And what we do is to advanceprotections for LGBTQ people and
people living with HIV throughimpact litigation is what we're
(04:14):
most known for.
We litigated Lawrence v Texas,for example, which was a case
that struck down sodomy laws,that criminalized intimacy among
same-sex couples back in theearly 2000s, for example.
But we also worked on Obergefellyou know, the marriage equality
decision landmark casesinvolving folks living with HIV,
like Bragdon v Abbott, and thelist is endless.
(04:37):
And just in the last few years,you know, there's been some huge
, groundbreaking cases that weworked on.
So that's what we're most knownfor.
But we also do a lot of work oneducation.
We know that it's so importantto win these battles in the
court, of course, but also towin in the court of public
opinion, and that means sharingwhat we know about the lives of
LGBTQ people and sharing storiesand really lifting up our
(04:57):
plaintiffs, for example, andtelling their stories and just
humanizing, you know, lgbtqfolks.
So there's a lot of work thatgoes into education and we also
work on public policy issues.
We are currently working arm inarm with our partners across
the country and seeking to pushback and defeat the anti-LGBTQ
legislation that is growingevery year, also working on
(05:20):
introducing legislation thatwill be helpful and shape folks'
lives in a number of differentareas.
So public policy, education and, most noticeably probably, is
our impact litigation.
Brad Shreve (05:31):
So you've done a couple things here and there
over the years.
Yeah, thank you for all thework you folks have done, and
I'm glad you have theeducational part in there,
because we can get all the lawspassed we want, but they don't
necessarily change hearts andminds.
Sasha Buchert (05:44):
Yeah, you know I'm a trans person and I
identify as a transgender womanand it's just, you know, really,
really important to me thatwhenever I do an interview, you
know I usually talk about transfolks in particular, just like a
lot of other folks.
You know, we have the samehopes and dreams.
We want a family, we like icecream, we like dogs.
Just the humanization is soimportant in this moment because
(06:06):
the far right, unfortunately,is really seizing the moment of
the unknowingness of trans folk.
Because we're just a smallerpopulation, it's just
mathematically really difficultto know a trans person.
In a lot of cases, a lot ofpeople do, because more and more
people have really been boldand have come out of the closet
and living openly as who theyare.
We're still a small population,so it's just so important to me
(06:29):
we take every opportunity to puta face on the issue and to make
sure that people understandthat there are real human beings
out there who are transgenderpeople, who are living lives,
trying to live lives withouthaving to look over the shoulder
in fear of discrimination.
So, just yeah, huge, huge, hugeprops to all of the people, all
of the trans people andnon-binary people across the
country who are doing thisreally important work in really
(06:51):
difficult parts of the country.
In some cases, you know wherethe hostility is so thick that
it's just really a challengingatmosphere.
But people are still, bravely,you know, going to their hostile
state legislatures, they'regoing to work, they're living
their lives openly and proudly.
So just huge hats off to all ofthe trans and non-binary folks
(07:13):
across the country that aredoing so much work to shift
public opinion and support fortrans and non-binary folks.
Brad Shreve (07:20):
Yeah, lgbtq people in general are under attack
right now.
But, oh my God, trans communityis just being brutalized and
I'll tell you my theory.
Sure, please.
My theory is it used to be allabout gays and lesbians because
trans is such a much smallercommunity, and then, once
marriage equality happened andpeople were like they live next
door to me, you know it's prettyokay.
(07:41):
I mean, I'm talking in generalterm here.
So then the right had to findsomebody new to brutalize.
Yeah, I was watching an oldepisode of Glee.
Yes, I'm gay.
Sasha Buchert (07:53):
And.
Brad Shreve (07:53):
Sue Sylvester was running for office and she
wasn't doing well in the pollsand she said you know what I've
been pushing for something?
I think I need to be againstsomething and what comes to the
folks on the right, that'sreally their whole mindset.
Sasha Buchert (08:07):
Yeah.
Brad Shreve (08:08):
What can we be against?
Do you think I'm on the right?
Sasha Buchert (08:10):
path I do.
I think there's a lot of.
You know I'm not a sociologist,I'm a lawyer, but you know,
give me my opinion.
I do think that there's anumber of factors at play.
I completely agree with you.
I think it's easier, easier tohate and fear than it is to love
and support, and I do thinkthat that's an easier way to
gain power to demonize, you know, rather than humanize.
But I think there's a number offactors at play.
(08:33):
Certainly there's been atrajectory from going, after I'm
old enough now, where I'velived through the marriage
equality fights and the way inwhich the far right talked about
LGB people back in the 90s lefta, you know, a mark on me
seeing the pain and sufferingthat folks went through during
that period.
And you're right, the targetshave shifted to trans and
non-binary folks.
But I think it's reallyimportant, especially in this
(08:54):
moment.
I think that that would havehappened anyway, but I think
it's really been escalated,driven by a number of different
factors.
I think one is loss of abortionas a political rallying.
It's like the dog that caughtthe car.
They got the Supreme Courtdecision and now they're finding
out as the president just said,the state of the union what the
consequences of that are goingto be, and my point is that
(09:16):
they've lost that issue todivide folks.
So they are certainly goingafter trans folks, but I think
it's also important to emphasizethat they haven't stopped going
after people of color.
Racism and discriminationagainst folks of color in this
country, you know, has come along way, but it's so clear that
(09:36):
there is still so muchdiscrimination that exists, you
know, on that front.
In addition, look at the attackson women still not just
abortion protections, but IVFprotections or access to
contraceptive care.
It's all at attack from the farright.
They go after what I view asbodily autonomy.
(09:57):
In many ways it's just thefreedom to live and make
decisions about your own body,and it's about control.
I think too.
I know that you know we want totalk about what we can do as a
community, but I think it's justimportant to point these things
out, because I do think that ifyou look at these attacks as a
whole, you see that they're just.
You know, it's just this nonstopattack on freedom and liberty.
(10:19):
It's not just bans on healthcare, it's bans on sports, it's
bans on bathrooms, it's bans ondrag queens, it's bans on pride
flags.
I'm surprised they haven'ttried to ban dancing.
It's really clear to me thatthis is an all-out assault on
freedom, and I think there'sanother reason for it, too that
doesn't get discussed as oftenbut feels really important to me
(10:40):
, because I feel like it's partof our democracy is the way in
which a lot of these placeswhere this legislation is really
causing the most harm areplaces where political
gerrymandering has caused theleast ability for people to rise
up and stand up against theseattacks, because of the way in
which these state legislaturesare formed and congressional
delegations.
(11:00):
So I think that's a reallyimportant piece of this our
voting rights.
Brad Shreve (11:04):
To make a long story short, I'd definitely like
to keep the show on thepositive, but we have to talk
about what's going on, to knowwe're going to go Doing what I
do here.
I've gotten to know a lot offolks like yourself that are
really out there doing somegreat things and people need to
be reminded of that and that'swhy I have this show.
It's funny you brought upracism.
My husband's a black man and welive with his mother.
We help care for her, and theydo it jokingly because otherwise
(11:30):
they'd cry.
They just roll their eyes andlike, yeah, we know what it
means to say bring America backagain.
Sasha Buchert (11:33):
You know, we all know what that means.
Brad Shreve (11:35):
You mentioned gerrymandering and everything.
The polls overwhelmingly well.
In some polls it depends onwhat we're looking at.
Marriage equality is very high.
The country supports it.
Even Republicans are frustratedat what DeSantis is doing.
But trans is lower in the pollsbut still shows the majority of
(11:56):
Americans support trans rights.
But they cheat, gerrymanderingand all this other garbage.
It's just.
It's sickening to run on aplatform that people are against
because for your own agendathat's not representation, is it
?
Sasha Buchert (12:08):
No, and they don't even try to pretend.
I don't know why I wasexpecting anything different,
but after the 2016 election, Iwas just so stunned to see
then-President Trump talking ina way that was really only
speaking to one small part ofthe country, and at least prior
administrations, who had fairlyhostile views towards LGBTQ
(12:30):
people, pretended to talk to theentire country and to speak for
the entire country, but thisjust was a.
I viewed it as a perspectivewhere the winner takes all and
if you didn't vote for me,you're not going to look at,
you're not my constituent andI'm not going to do anything for
you, and, in fact, I'm going togo after you is the sense I'm
getting from a lot ofpoliticians, how they view their
jobs as legislators, which isreally disappointing.
Brad Shreve (12:52):
It really is.
I always tell people mylisteners have heard me say this
before it's Obama's fault,because he was in there for two
great terms and they were like,no, we can't have this happen.
And it was a rebound.
It was a rebound effect andthis minority of people have,
well, they've done a great jobof getting into our school
boards.
We had our, we had ourbackstern while they were
(13:15):
sneaking into the school boardsand and getting the local
communities and people don'tvote in the local elections and
they're they're so important.
You know, I I don't understand,understand why people don't get
, why it's so important.
You know who's the mayoraffects me more on a day-to-day
basis than who's the presidentand, my God, the school boards
have changed all these policiesand it's insane.
(13:37):
So, yeah, we know what they'redoing and I want to get to some
of the good things that aregoing on.
But it was in the right, afterthe 19, the 20, I'm sorry, 19,
16, the 2016 election, that youdecided to go with Lambda Legal,
am I correct?
Sasha Buchert (13:51):
That's right.
That's right.
Yep 2017,.
I came to Lambda Legal in thesummer of 2017.
And I was here, probably likeless than a month, and Trump
issued his tweets abouttransgender military service.
Issued his tweets abouttransgender military service.
I was just sitting in my officelooking at Twitter and just
absolutely aghast and realizedhow bad things were going to be
at that moment.
Brad Shreve (14:12):
I presume you're still on Twitter.
Sasha Buchert (14:14):
I am not.
I haven't closed down myaccount, but I rarely go and
look at it, only when there'ssome massive news story.
That's pretty rare.
I don't really take a back anddisgusted by the owner's
statements about trans folks andtrans issues, so I just don't
have the heart to.
You know, I enjoyed a few greatyears on that platform and had
(14:36):
some amazing conversations andit was a really important tool,
but the way in which it's beentransformed into this really
hostile, unmoderated climate runby a person who is clearly
hostile to trans folks, you know, left me with a bad taste in my
mouth and I go back maybe onceor twice a year, the most.
Brad Shreve (14:57):
I suspend my account.
You're allowed to suspend itfor 30 days, so every 28 days I
go back and reenact it and putit on suspension again Because I
keep thinking someday eitherit's going to go run in the
ground or maybe somebody sayingwe'll buy it and I don't want to
lose my name.
Yeah, so I do the same thing.
The reason I was thinking maybeyou were on there.
I thought maybe your job.
You have to kind of know what'sgoing on, but you're not
(15:17):
getting the pulse of the nation.
You're getting the pulse of thenation.
You know Exactly, exactly.
So you are the director ofLambda Legal's Non-Binary and
Transgender Rights Project andit used to be called the
(15:39):
Transgender Rights Project andit's been changed to Non-Binary.
And for me personally and I'mgoing to assume other people are
like me, in fact I'll be veryblunt.
I'm always very open about this, because anybody who knows me
will find this hard to believe Iwas really uncomfortable with
trans Once I got to know sometrans folks.
Well, now I'm not going to saynon-binary is the same thing,
(16:00):
but people like nice littleblack and white bodies.
Yeah, and you know, okay, male,female, but non-binary.
Wait a minute, can you explaina non-binary to us?
Yeah, for sure.
What's a society view on binary?
Sasha Buchert (16:18):
Yeah, I think it's not the same.
I think comparisons aren'tgreat, you know, but I think one
way to understand it is tounderstand the experience of
bisexual people, who often geterased when talking about, you
know, binaries of being gay orstraight.
Brad Shreve (16:34):
Well, bisexuals don't exist, you know.
They have to make a choice.
Sasha Buchert (16:39):
They're just really gay.
They're just really lesbian.
They're just really straight.
I'm just really lesbian.
They're just really straight.
Brad Shreve (16:43):
I'm still floored when I hear that I'm like what?
Sasha Buchert (16:47):
Yeah, it's the same thing with non-binary folks
to some degree.
You know, I think that somepeople just don't identify as
male or female and they do fallin between.
You know, I think that thinkingabout sex and gender, sexuality
and gender as these binary,oppositional poles isn't that
helpful.
I think that, going back to theKinsey Institute, I think that,
(17:07):
whatever people want to admit,I think it's pretty clear that
these issues are, you know, fallon a spectrum and there are
people that just don't identifyas female, they don't identify
as male, and that experienceshould be honored.
You know, and I'm grateful foryou saying you know what you've
said, because I think thatthat's probably the experience
of a lot of people and itprovides a model for people to
(17:28):
see.
You know and I've experiencedit in my own life and with
different issues it can be achallenge sometimes to overcome
some of those ways in which weframe the world and talk about
the trans community being small.
the non-binary community isminuscule compared to that, you
know.
So it's really important thatwe in the same way that, you
know, the trans communitydoesn't want to be erased as
(17:49):
part of the LGBTQ community it'sjust really important that we
have a broad tent and make surethat we're including non-binary
folks as part of this.
You know there's been a lot ofreally great policy movement
forward on behalf of non-binaryfolks.
You know, not just in the USbut around the world.
Asports have had ex-gendermarkers now for maybe a decade
(18:11):
in places like India andAustralia as a result of some
Lambda legal litigation.
Actually, we have ex-gendermarkers here as of I think three
years ago now.
So that's exciting and there'sa lot of other wonderful
advocacy being done, but it issomething to grapple with.
I think it's helpful for folksSometimes.
There's a lot of educationalmaterials out there that can
(18:32):
help people understand a littlebetter who non-binary people are
, but I hope that helps explainit a little bit.
Brad Shreve (18:38):
Yes, it does.
I will say one thing I'm happyto see about non-binary like
marriage equality is a goodexample.
When we were trying to getmarriage equality passed,
unfortunately, all of a suddenit became LGB, because they
wanted to make sure that we gotour rights and they didn't think
.
Some organizations I'm going tosay some organizations wanted
to ensure that we got our rightsand they're like you know,
(18:59):
we're not going to get it withtrans, so we're just going to go
forward and trans community gotpushed to the wayside and it's
paying for it now.
I'm happy to see non-binarybeing pulled in, really before
that happens.
Yeah, I hope we learned fromthat.
Sasha Buchert (19:13):
Yeah, I think we did.
I think the state of the union,state of the LGBTQ union, is
pretty solid right now.
You know, I'm not saying therearen't people that have strong
feelings, but overall I thinkyou know there's a lot of, I
think there's been a realmovement towards that and I hope
that continues.
Yeah for sure.
Brad Shreve (19:30):
If you can elaborate more on that as far as
how you see more inclusiontoday than what it used to be,
Well on a number of fronts.
Sasha Buchert (19:37):
First of all, I think that people especially
since 2020, people have become alot more cognizant about the.
You know, we talked aboutracism a while back and I think
it's just really important to.
I think a foundationalunderstanding that I think is
shared by most of theorganizations is that the folks
that we should be doing work onon behalf of the most impacted
(19:57):
and that should drive what we doimpacted and that should drive
what we do and clearly the folksthat are most impacted are
folks of color and specificallytrans folks of color, trans
women of color.
You know they sit on thisfiring line between racism,
homophobia, transphobia, sexism.
So I think there's been just alot of work.
I'm not saying a lot of itisn't performative or just lip
(20:17):
service and that doesn'tnecessarily lead to the change
that we would love to see in theworld, but I think there's a
lot more effort.
Anyway, I don't know about theresults I'll leave that for
someone else to assess but Ithink that there at least is a
conversation happening aboutmaking sure that there's
thoughtfulness aroundinclusivity and the work that we
do, whether it's the litigation, public policy work, whether
(20:38):
it's a panel.
You know you want to make surethat you've got folks of color
represented and you want to makesure that there are diverse
experiences.
So I feel like that's one pieceof it.
I think that there's been, youknow, a sea change in interest
and conversations around transand non-binary folks across the
country.
You know, I think you know, Italk to law firms all the time
and they're super excited aboutthese issues and part of it is
(20:59):
their interest in litigation, ofcourse, but I think just
generally, and so I think I'mhopeful that that will continue.
I'm not saying that therearen't problems there are, you
know, that need to be worked on,but I think that the trend is
favorable.
You know, I don't want to beoverly Pollyannish about it
again, no-transcript.
(21:28):
You know where I do feel likethere is a positive trajectory.
Brad Shreve (21:32):
Yeah, as much as it feels like we've been pushed
back and we have nowhere nearwhat it was 30 years ago, right,
and it's easy to lose sight ofthat.
Sasha Buchert (21:40):
There it is.
I was just thinking the otherday.
I was like thinking about allof the amazing.
I don't know them by nameSomebody will have to check me
on this but I know that thereare amazing openly trans
performers that you know doamazing pop music and are models
and in almost every you knowrealm of public life.
(22:03):
When I was growing up, it waspretty much Renee Richards, you
know.
So I think that that's a hugechange culturally and I think
that this is to some degree, youknow, laverne Cox, of course,
and Janet Mock, and I just Idon't want to start leave
somebody out, but there's justendless amount of amazing folks.
I think part of you know theanti-trans stuff that we're
(22:24):
seeing is really backlash,because I think people, wherever
you look, of LGBTQ people, is athreat to the view of America
as something that it never was.
So I think that's part of it.
(22:48):
But, yeah, again, I'm a veryoptimistic person and, like you,
I think that it's a difficultand dark moment, to be sure, but
I think the overall arc here isgood.
Brad Shreve (23:00):
Well, you brought up the pop figures that are
trans and how they're beingembraced.
A lot of that is the Gen Z andsome of the younger Gen X.
Their attitude Are yousurprised by how embracing they
are?
They don't even want to becalled gay or trans.
They're like we don't wantthose labels, we just want to be
.
Sasha Buchert (23:20):
Yeah, which is amazing, which is wonderful, you
know.
I mean I have gripes, as everylawyer does.
I think it's wonderful and it'sgreat and it's sweet and the
numbers give me a lot of hopeevery day when I think about the
next generations.
One I would love to see more ofthem vote.
I went through a training a fewmonths ago and it was just so
(23:43):
depressing to understand how fewfolks that are under 30 vote.
The numbers are really reallystunning and it's just that's
got to change.
You want to see aed in the NewYork Times talking about the
movie that was released prettyrecently with Will Ferrell who
(24:04):
traveled across the country witha trans woman.
I haven't seen it yet but it's adocumentary and it's supposed
to be pretty great.
And you know, he kind ofparalleled a little bit like the
rising visibility of transfolks overall and contrasted
that with the attacks you know,and said that visibility.
I think the thesis mostly wasthat visibility isn't going to
save us here.
We need to have people engagedand active.
(24:26):
So you know, as much as Iappreciate the way in which the
youth have really embracedfreedom and have chosen to live
openly and authentically andlive lives that you know we
could have only imagined acouple of decades ago.
I do hope that they willtranslate more of that into
action, because there's a lot ofpeople suffering in this moment
and I know we'll come throughit and you know we'll be better
(24:46):
for it.
But I just want to remindpeople that there's a lot of
harm being done in the meantimeand whatever work you can do to
advance things in this momentwill diminish that harm and
suffering that people areexperiencing.
Brad Shreve (25:00):
When I talked to Brian Sims, the former
Pennsylvania congressperson,state congressperson and is now
doing advocacy work, he gave mehope because I brought up the
voting of the young people.
Democrats since probablyKennedy, have worked very hard
to get the younger generation tovote and they kind of gave up
because they realized it's a lotof money and a lot of work and
they've had little result.
(25:21):
And yeah, we need them to votemore.
But we saw in the last, themost recent elections that more
are voting.
The percentage has gone updramatically because it was so
low.
You know, it has gone updramatically.
And I said to Brian I said youknow it's because these kids
don't care and Brian goes no,they do care, that's why they're
(25:42):
voting now.
They do care.
Sasha Buchert (25:44):
Yeah.
Brad Shreve (25:45):
And I hope that's a trend that continues.
Sasha Buchert (25:47):
Yeah, me too.
I really do.
I hope it does.
I also hope it does we're doing.
You know it's so important thatpeople remember to register and
to vote.
It makes a world of differenceand, as you said earlier, not
just the presidential elections.
You know, the local, like allpolitics, is local, as they say,
and that's just so key.
So, yeah, please, please,please, please, take a moment.
(26:08):
You know you want to be activeand want to support your
community and women and peopleof color and trans and
non-binary people, and you wantto make a difference.
Easiest thing you can do is tovote and the most important
thing you can do is to vote.
The easiest thing you can do isto vote.
Brad Shreve (26:20):
And the most important thing you can do is to
vote.
So this is going to seem like asilly question.
After four years of anightmarish person in the White
House he that shall not be named, how does it feel like the
other day when LGBT community ismentioned in Biden's State of
the Union address?
Sasha Buchert (26:35):
Loved it.
You know I think it's soimportant.
I mean the Biden administrationhas done the Biden-Harris
administration.
I want to make sure we givecredit to the vice president,
who is absolutely wonderful andhas been doing so much really
important work on reproductivefreedom.
I think that it's reassuring.
You know, I'm the kind of personthat likes to look at action
over words, necessarily, butjust calling out trans people is
(26:59):
just so important.
It's part of that humanizationwork that I was talking about
earlier.
You know, just saying the wordtrans, I mean we know that the
last administration tried to banthe word transgender and we've
seen that in state legislationacross the country where you
know they will never say theword transgender because it's
humanizing.
You know it puts a face on theissue.
So I think just saying that andhe got some heat for it, you
(27:21):
know there's some far rightfolks that were, you know,
complaining that he mentioned usas human beings.
So I can hear my old boss in myear who always said make sure
you bring judicial nominationsto the dance.
(27:44):
So just really excited aboutthe progress that's been made on
the federal judiciary.
People forget that those folksare lifetime appointments,
meaning that they could be onthe bench after three, four
different, five differentadministrations change over and
they'll still be there and someof the folks that we saw
nominated and confirmed in thelast administration, you know,
(28:07):
had very clear records of theirhostility towards LGBTQ people.
So I was just really gratefulto the diversity of nominees
that the administration putforward.
You know there were so manyfolks amazing folks of color,
clearly qualified folks for thejob but you know there were so
many folks amazing folks ofcolor, clearly qualified folks
(28:28):
for the job, but you know, alsodiverse and not necessarily
always coming from white shoe.
You know whatever that term isfor corporate law firms.
You know there are a lot ofpeople who worked at public
defender firms and just amazingdiversity in both the profession
and the demographics that wesaw.
Still waiting for the firsttrans and non-binary nominee.
There's never been a nominee.
Even so, I'm just hoping thatby the end of the year that
(28:48):
somebody gets nominated.
I would really love to see thatbecause I think that that's
again part of the work Make suresomebody's qualified.
They have to be able to do thejob, but it would just be lovely
to make sure that that happenssometime soon.
But a lot of LGBTQ, lgb,wonderful nominees that have
been nominated and confirmedover the last three years and so
hopefully that will continue.
And that's really importantagain because a lot of these
(29:10):
decisions that work their way upthrough the courts don't all
necessarily get to the SupremeCourt.
The Supreme Court is surely thelast law of the land but a lot
of places, a lot of cases.
They only take about 100 cases.
So, like you know, tens ofthousands of cases end up in the
different circuit courts,meaning you know there's 13
(29:30):
different circuit courts aroundthe country.
Some of these issues reallyimportant issues on civil rights
issues like guns and LGBTQissues and reproductive freedom
you know a whole host ofdifferent issues get decided at
that level and might not evermake it to the Supreme Court or
might not make it for decades,meaning that if it's a, you know
, really horrific policy, itjust stays in place, you know,
(29:51):
in that part of the country,which is really harmful.
So really excited to see thechanges.
To make a life story short,sorry to go on so long about
this, but in the federaljudiciary and hoping to see a
lot more.
Brad Shreve (30:01):
I hope so too, and you know we have two lesbian
governors now and it's not goingto happen as fast as you and I
would like it to, because wewant it to happen now.
Sasha Buchert (30:08):
I think we'll see a trans governor before too
long.
Brad Shreve (30:10):
I think it'll happen in my lifetime.
Sasha Buchert (30:12):
Well, yeah, we had so many firsts that have
like came in the last election Ican't even remember them all
for non-binary and trans folks Iwas.
Yeah, you're right, you know,there's a first.
There's a trans woman runningfor the first congressional seat
up in Pennsylvania, sarahMcBride, and there's some other
folks that I believe areconsidering runs too, across the
country, so hopefully we'll seeour first congressperson, which
(30:34):
would be amazing, you know.
So, yeah, you're right, there'sso many ceilings to break here,
so I'm just excited to see thetrajectory for the community.
Brad Shreve (30:42):
And I think one of the reasons why we've seen so
many that were successful andgot elected is because we had so
many that were like wait aminute, this has got to stop.
And they ran yeah, so we needmore people running.
And again back to the localelections.
I think back to thelibertarians, when they had a
lot more strength, and what thelibertarians were doing were
(31:04):
they said we need to startlocally.
They were running for localoffice, they were running for
state and they were reallygaining some power and then, for
some reason, that changed.
I don't know whose decision itwas.
They start focusing on thepresidential, like all their
attention and it fell apart.
I mean, they're still around,but they're not nearly as strong
as they used to be, which youcan be saying that's a plus or
negative right now I embracelibertarians compared to what we
have, but I think that we couldlearn a lesson from that.
Sasha Buchert (31:25):
Yes, absolutely To paraphrase the president,
folks, here's the thing.
Most of most of you probablydon't know and this is just
being completely honest withyourself who your state
legislator is or your statesenator, and that's just the
facts.
So that just is a clear sign tome that you're right.
We have turned away from, youknow, local elections and have
(31:47):
turned to the big shinypresidential elections or maybe
the Senate elections at the most, and it's just so important
because there are so many, youknow, positive changes that you
can make you know on the locallevel and your voice is so
important.
It's just really important thatpeople get involved and know who
your state legislator is.
You can Google it and you canenter your zip code and you can
(32:09):
find out and contact them andask them what they're doing to
support LGBTQ people.
At least know who they are andconsider a run yourself.
Like you said, you're right,people have been mobilized and
they're activated and hopefullyit's not just trans and
non-binary folks.
Hopefully we're seeing moreLGBT, lgb candidates as well, as
you know, women and people ofcolor, and you know this country
needs to.
(32:29):
I hope just more people getexcited about the prospect of
running for something and getinvolved and start going to city
council meetings.
Get to know who people are andmake your move.
Brad Shreve (32:39):
And I'm going to give a great example of why I
think this is important.
I'm trying to drill this inpeople's heads.
Sean Struve is a perfectexample.
Sean founded Paz Magazine andcontinues to do some great
advocacy work.
He is mayor of a small town inPennsylvania in a very red
community.
And what happened when?
There was something thathappened with the mayor and he
(32:59):
wasn't necessarily just put intoplace, but it was pretty easy
for him to become mayor and thenwhen it came time for the next
election, he easily won and hesaid because people realize it,
who cares who I'm married to?
Their trash was being picked up, yeah, you know.
And they realized everythingwas OK.
If more and more people can seethat and feel comfortable, ok,
(33:20):
we have a gay mayor.
Ok, we have a gay mayor.
Okay, we have a trans statelegislator and the world's not
falling apart and lightningdidn't strike me and then
they'll start being morecomfortable for national Senate,
national Congress, people andthe president.
Sasha Buchert (33:34):
Yeah, yeah, it's just getting over that initial
hurdle, you know.
After that it's the question isare they doing their job or not
?
Brad Shreve (33:39):
Absolutely so.
Tell us some other good thingsthat are happening, because we
need to hear the good stuff.
I look through the differentonline LGBTQ magazines and, if I
dig, I actually started anewsletter for a while, but I
was just too busy writing novels.
I had to dig to find the goodnews, but there was a lot of it,
and because it doesn't sell, itdoesn't sell, so we were being
(34:02):
drummed out of the servicebefore we got involved with our
(34:23):
litigation and those folks arenow protected.
Sasha Buchert (34:26):
You know, we have a saying here where we lean in
on science and not stigma.
You know, and that's led to asea change in the way that the
DOD handles folks who are livingwith HIV in the military and
there's litigation now focusedon people that are seeking to
enlist in the military that areliving with HIV.
You know, there's just a lot ofmisinformation and confusion
(34:48):
and biased reasoning, in myopinion, with regard to not just
gender affirming, not just withpeople living with HIV, but
also with gender affirming care.
So I feel like that's just athat's a huge victory.
That's a little bit not told asoften, but but a huge victory
for the community.
We've also seen enormous drives, you know, with regard to the
bans on health care for transminors overall.
(35:10):
You know the number of statesfrom really conservative judges
and really conservative parts ofthe country who have issued,
you know, injunctions, keepingyou know those laws from going
into effect is just absolutelystunning with really powerful
reasoning.
That is so important becausethose district court judges you
know the trial court level, notto bore people with procedure,
but there's three differentlevels, you know.
(35:31):
There's the trial court, theappeals court and then the
Supreme Court and the trialcourt is the court that hears
directly from witnesses and theyhear from the plaintiffs
themselves, they hear from thedefendants.
Those are the people that areclosest to the facts and in
these cases, you know, they'veheard from families over and
over and over again, and they'veheard from the folks who are
trying to inflict these bans andthey have, you know, repeatedly
(35:55):
, almost universally, held thatyou know these laws likely
violate the Constitution andhave enjoined them from going
into effect and there's beensome appellate courts that have
ruled otherwise, unfortunately,that have watered down some of
those really amazing decisionsNot all of them, but you know
some of them.
But I think that one of the bigvictories out of that is the
humanization of trans people,first of all because they're,
(36:17):
you know, folks are going to thecourtroom and telling their
stories and the media iscovering this and people are
recognizing that.
You know what's really afoothere.
So there's just been a lot ofprogress in the way that people
understand trans people and careneeded to treat gender
dysphoria.
Since I've been doing this work, you know the amount of
hostility people have towardsyou know that care, in
(36:38):
particular, is stunning to me.
It's the same care, becauseit's the same care in a lot of
cases.
That's frequently provided tonon-transgender people.
You know, cisgender peoplenon-transgender people, you know
undergo hormone care for anynumber of reasons.
It's endless, you know.
And same with puberty blockersA lot of reasons kids undertake
that care.
It's demonstrated to beclinically effective for trans
(37:00):
people.
But it's just anyway, to make along story short, just the.
There's been a huge change in,I think, the way the
conversation around these issuesand people are understanding,
you know, the medical necessityand the clinical effectiveness
and really has started to pokeholes in the junk science that
you know is often used to framethese issues.
So there's a.
Those are a couple of reallythose are probably the most
(37:21):
significant victories I thinkthat we've experienced.
We are seeing victories.
We want a really greatinjunction.
We filed a lawsuit in responseto a don't say gay bill that was
passed in Iowa last year andwe've challenged that and it's
such a ridiculous attack, in myopinion, because everybody has a
gender identity and everybodyhas a sexual orientation.
(37:42):
It would be, you know, it'sjust they don't want to come out
and say that they're justtargeting LGBT people, so they
pretend it's this curriculumissue and we want a really
amazing injunction keeping thatlaw from going into effect while
the litigation proceeds.
So it's another victory thatwe've just seen.
You know and again I think I'mgoing back to the larger picture
I'm not saying it will continueand the burden is on the folks
(38:05):
in this country that want tocontinue to live in a democracy,
but you know, we have seenpositive results.
The midterm election isn't anelection that usually goes the
way in which it did during apresidential administration
during a presidentialadministration.
So I think that there'ssomething great to be said about
people's awareness of what'sgoing on.
(38:26):
Sometimes I worry that peopleare not really paying attention,
but then, you know, the lastthree elections have consoled me
in that people are watching andthey are paying attention, but
it's just so important thatpeople stay vigilant.
So those are a few things thatI can, you know, probably
mention a few more, but it'sjust so important that people
stay vigilant.
So those are a few things thatI can probably mention a few
more, but those are things thatare really top of mind right now
.
Brad Shreve (38:46):
Well, I'm glad you brought up the courts, because
one thing I don't think peoplerealize we hear about all these
bills that are going across thecountry and it's just outrageous
the number, but I don't thinkpeople realize how much the
courts have said no, yeah,they've really done their job of
standing as the bulwark Arethere any that surprised you A
lot?
Yeah.
Sasha Buchert (39:05):
Like I said, you know we've had courts and we had
judges that were appointed inthe last administration in
places like Tennessee.
Tennessee is really aconservative, deep red state
with a court that was appointedby you know last administration
who actually ruled against us inanother case, issued this
really powerful decision onbehalf of trans kids in health
(39:27):
care that was 60, 70 pages longand looked in detail at all of
the issues and issued thisreally rock-solid,
well-thought-out, well-reasoneddecision that was really
powerful.
It got reversed by the SixthCircuit, but it was just a
really amazing decision.
So that's one example.
There was a decision in Alabama, similarly holding that you
(39:50):
know its discrimination.
There was a decision inArkansas.
Arkansas, tennessee and Alabamaare not the states that jump out
at you as places where you'regoing to have judges that would
stereotypically be moresupportive, and all of the
judges in those cases, I believe, were well, at least two of
them were, you know, judges thatwere appointed by, you know,
republican administrations.
(40:11):
Those are some examples, youknow.
Just it's the same conversationI was having about things to be
positive about.
So I think that's certainlybeen surprising and I think
that'll continue, just becauseit's just such a clear cut issue
and such a clear cut attackoverall.
Brad Shreve (40:27):
I've seen a lot of people mobilize, but I have also
seen probably an equal numberof people that really are ready
to wave the right flag.
They don't see any hope.
You obviously have hope.
Or you wouldn't be doing whatyou're doing, oh yeah, why
should I have hope?
You should have hope.
Or you wouldn't be doing whatyou're doing, oh yeah, why
should I have hope?
Sasha Buchert (40:43):
You should have hope because, again, look at the
last three elections, look atthe trajectory that we've been
talking about and the arc of.
You know I don't want to use DrMartin Luther King Jr's
language, but there is progressthat's being made here and you
have to.
You know, nobody said civilrights was going to be easy or
human rights is going to be easy.
But in times when democracy ischallenged and civil rights are
(41:05):
challenged in this way, it's soimportant that people don't let
down their guard.
They have to stand up and youhave to fight and you have to
push back and you have to bevisible and you have to do the
hard work.
We've gotten a little spoiled.
I think there is a threat rightnow to our future and our
children's future, and it's justso important.
But I think people should havehope.
If you look at the past andwhere we are now, there's just
(41:28):
so many things to be excitedabout and the hope we can
continue to provide leadershipto not just protect ourselves
and for our country, but for theworld.
You know we're seeing similarissues around the world, with
growing autocracy and thediminishment of civil and human
rights in a lot of differentplaces, and I think you know,
(41:48):
the more we can stand up and dowhat we can do now, creating a
better future for a lot ofpeople.
One thing that doesn't getdiscussed as much that I would
love to infuse into thediscussion a little bit is
people being a little morecognizant about where they're
spending their money into thediscussion a little bit is
people being a little morecognizant about where they're
spending their money?
You know you can go toopensecretsorg and you can find
out who's donating.
I was going to ask what peopleyeah find out which companies
(42:10):
are giving.
I'm not asking people to boycottthis or that company, but at
least be aware of whichcompanies are supporting the
politicians that are causing themost harm in this moment.
I think that businesses youknow have some accountability
and I think it's reallyimportant that people understand
who they're supporting and beaware you know of when you buy
that toilet paper at the store.
(42:30):
You know where does that moneygo.
What is it?
What does it support?
I don't know about you, but I'mreally sick of billionaires
using their money to attackcivil and human rights, and we
give them the ability to do thatwhenever we take out our
wallets.
Brad Shreve (42:44):
And it is hard to boycott, because I like to use
Ben and Jerry's as an example.
Ben and Jerry's, when theystarted, was a very liberal
company and it's part of theirmarketing.
They still are a very liberalcompany.
Unfortunately, now they'reowned by a very conservative
corporation that does a lot ofbad environmentally, so it makes
it tough.
But when you have groups likeChick-fil-A or Hobby Lobby,
(43:06):
where it's clear as day, that'swhere you know.
I was actually going to askwhat people can do to support
what you're doing.
Sasha Buchert (43:13):
Oh, great, you can support land illegal.
I love that financially, youknow, or otherwise.
But I think that things peoplecan be doing you know include
number one voting register tovote and vote.
Register to vote and vote.
Number two find out who yourstate legislators are.
You can just Google, find mystate legislator, find out who
they are.
I'm not even asking you to callthem, you know, just find out
(43:35):
who they are.
Because as soon as you know whothey are, you'll get more
plugged in.
Go to a city council meeting,get more involved locally.
And the third thing would bejust looking at where you're
spending your money.
Brad Shreve (43:47):
Well, thank you for your time.
It's been great talking to you.
You've made me feel hopeful.
Sasha Buchert (43:51):
Back at you.
Thanks, Brad.
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