October 3, 2023 • 46 mins
Prepare to be inspired by a remarkable journey of resilience and faith. This week, we have the honor of welcoming Reverend Troy Perry, founder of the Metropolitan Community Church and a tireless advocate for LGBTQ+ rights. From the humble beginnings of his church in his living room to the grandeur of its international presence, Rev. Perry takes us on an awe-inspiring journey full of hope, defiance, and triumph.
We also delve into the more personal aspects of Rev. Perry’s life. This episode reveals the profound impact of his decision to come out during the Vietnam War, the harsh fallout that ensued, and the divine intervention that saved his life. It’s a powerful testament to the importance of self-belief, resilience, and the transformative power of faith.
In addition, Brad's conversation with Rev. Perry explores his remarkable legacy of activism. Prepare to be moved as he recounts the unity, protest, and change that he helped bring about in the 1970s, from storming the California State Building, demanding an end to anti-homosexuality laws, to leading a demonstration against the Hollywood Police Department. It’s a vivid reminder of the immense power we hold when we stand united in our fight for justice. Join us as we celebrate the strength of the LGBTQ+ community and the importance of making a difference together.
Links:
Reverend Troy Perry’s Website
Metropolitan Community Church Website
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brad Shreve (00:00):
This is Queer we Are.
I'm Brad Shreem and on Queer weAre.
There's no pretending the worldis all rainbows and unicorns.
It can be rough out there, buteach week I give you a break
from those ugly headlines.
(00:20):
Now we may bring thosechallenges up, but we don't stay
there long.
We don't dwell on the problemsmy guests share, what they're
doing to make a difference orhow they keep hope alive when
it's hard to do so.
Or maybe they're just here toentertain, which is a gift.
My guest is Reverend Troy Perryand, based on feedback, I know
(00:41):
many of you just cringed becauseI said the word Reverend.
And yes, troy is a Christianand a religious leader, but
remember, martin Luther King wasa minister too and, like King,
reverend Perry has served allpeople, regardless of their
religious beliefs or lack of it,and also regardless of sexual
(01:01):
identification.
Troy relates to those who, withreligious backgrounds that left
them scarred.
He had the same issue.
Now, if that defines you, hegets it and he understands.
It may never be for you, but 55years ago this month, reverend
Perry started the MetropolitanCommunity Church in the living
(01:23):
room of his Los Angeles home,with 12 congregants.
Now that's a humble beginning,but today there are over 222
congregations in 37 countries.
Now, many people refer to theMCC as the gay church, but it's
much, much more than that, andshh don't tell anyone, but
(01:44):
there's actually some straightpeople there too.
So, in addition to succeedingand launching and growing the
MCC, he has a history andseveral rights for all LGBTQ
people, including, but notlimited to, co-founding the
Christopher Street West, whichorganized the first Pride March
in 1970.
In 1973, he rushed to NewOrleans to support the community
(02:05):
after the horrific fire at theupstairs lounge gay bar, the
worst incident of his kind untilthe Pulse nightclub incident in
Orlando in 2016.
In 1979, he helped organize theMarch in Washington, which had
100,000 LGBTQ people there.
So don't say that we can't jointogether and work together.
(02:27):
I'm going to hold you for aminute for exciting news.
Right now, the QueerWeRShotcomis open for business and you can
click the link in the shownotes now and still listen to
this episode.
And with me is my graphicdesigner, denise.
Hi Brad.
Denise has worked with me foryears.
(02:48):
She designed my websites,several of my logos, my book
covers.
The list goes on, in fact.
Every week, at the bottom ofthe show notes, you'll see a
link to UmiWorks, which isDenise's business, and you can
check on her work as well.
Now, denise, here's what weknow that people are going to
find at QueerWeRShotcom.
Every podcast has theirt-shirts and maybe one or two
(03:09):
more, but we actually don't haveany.
We have many t-shirts, plus, wehave sweatshirts and coffee
mugs, with more in the way aswinter is biting our heels.
We also have other excitingproducts.
We're busy designing, andhoping to have soon, many home
products.
We were lazy, though, and wecopied all the designs that we
(03:29):
could see from Amazon andRedbubble.
Denise Shiozawa (03:32):
No way, brad.
You do have some hot, trendyslogans that you've probably
seen before, like Queer AF andStay Woke, but we also have
plenty you won't see anywhereelse.
I think we've come up for somepretty fun and sometimes thought
provoking designs.
Brad Shreve (03:49):
We thought them up, so how could there be anything
less?
Right right.
I'd podcast no matter what, butputting on a quality show takes
money, so I'll be promoting theshop without beating you over
the head with them.
This store is bigger than theshow, though.
This is a career.
So I'm not doing Patreon,though it is under consideration
(04:11):
because some listeners haveasked for it, but I won't bore
you with ads for that onlinetherapy company you keep hearing
on other shows or that placethat delivers actually, there's
several of them delivers fresh,expensive foods to your door, so
check the shop nowQueerRShopcom.
So, regarding Troy Perry,denise, don't go anywhere.
(04:32):
As I said, I'm Brad Shrieve andmy guest is Troy Perry and
Queer.
We Are Happy 55th anniversaryto Metropolitan Community Church
.
Reverend Troy, thank you somuch.
Troy Perry (04:48):
It's been 55 years since that first service in
Huntington Park, california.
I'm thankful to God I'm stillalive here.
I am 83 years old.
Talking about what transpiredand what happened back then.
Brad Shreve (05:04):
So that was back in 1968 and you founded the church
in your living room with 12people attending, and today your
church now has 300congregations in 22 countries.
Tell me what you're feelingthis month.
Troy Perry (05:20):
I am feeling incredible this month.
I'm very thankful that I'velived to be 83 years old.
I'm thankful that good thingsare continuing still in my life.
You know that I still havewonderful friends who I knew
then and who are alive today.
(05:40):
I was just talking to Lynn, oneof my friends.
Lynn was in the Air Force.
I was in the Army.
We were near each other's campsduring Vietnam.
We were both Vietnam eraveterans.
We met each other there andLynn ended up back coming to
America and I told him I'm goingto be speaking there.
(06:03):
I want you to come up and hearme.
And Lynn came up and heard meand stayed in the church and he
just celebrated his 53rdanniversary in MCC.
But he's no longer than that.
He knew me in the military.
So here we are today, Thank God, good things happening every
(06:23):
day.
Brad Shreve (06:25):
Well, you were still pretty small fry then, so
he saw a lot happen.
Troy Perry (06:30):
Yes, he did.
He says that too.
He loved going.
The church in San Francisco hadjust started after our church,
about nine months later, andthey invited me to come up and
preach at California Hall and,of course, san Francisco being
San Francisco, always laugh.
(06:51):
They could be negative or theycould be positive.
They chose to be negative andsaying, well, they only had 800
people there.
Brad Shreve (07:01):
He didn't have Only had 800 for the first service,
for the first service.
Troy Perry (07:06):
They'd never had 800 people out in the open with
their faces with no makeup on,ever in San Francisco until I
spoke there.
I think that's amazing.
Oh yeah, no, it was amazing andthey laughed in the press and
they said that they were cuttingup.
They really meant that it wasamazing that I could come into
(07:28):
the city.
But people were really curiousabout me.
I spoke in New York City.
It was very interesting.
I was invited to speak there inabout 1973 or four and I was
there because we were going tohave the first demonstration at
(07:48):
the state capitol in Albany andGAA Gay Activist Alliance
invited me to come into the cityand to speak and I was to speak
at a festival of unity atColumbia University.
That night we had over 2,500people who came.
The auditorium was packed.
(08:09):
So this wasn't a slow growth.
This was not slow growth timewith MCC or with the larger gay,
lesbian, bi-transgender, queercommunity.
It just wasn't that way.
It was very fast at first, whenI was time for me to speak at
Columbia, I go, the place ispacked.
(08:30):
Oh my God.
Female singer she was thesinger before I spoke and she
was a Broadway star.
She was in the musical Gains inNew York.
Wonderful, wonderful musicaland we invited her.
Well, after she finishedsinging, this guy jumped up on
(08:55):
the stage, started screamingthat how dare we invite a
heterosexual to sing at a gayevent?
Brad Shreve (09:05):
Those people.
Troy Perry (09:06):
Yeah, I was thrilled to have an ally willing to come
and sing.
I always have been.
I'm one of those strange gayleaders.
They always said that I wasthrilled to death.
My organization everyone callsit a gay organization, but there
are heterosexuals who aremembers of MCC.
(09:27):
Well, here this guy.
Then the auditorium startedbooing him.
Next thing I know this is thefirst time I've told this story,
but the next thing I know hehas pulled out his personal and
shook it at the crowd.
I couldn't believe it.
And then the crowd really didget nasty.
(09:51):
And when they did, all of oncethis lesbian in the crowd said
Johnny, or whatever his name was.
She used her voice to get hisattention.
Johnny, you're just like everyother fucking man Using your
(10:13):
dick as a weapon.
The next thing.
I know he's off the stage andhere I am.
That's my turn to speak, andthat's a hard act to follow.
This is a hard act to follow,but this is.
If I'm going to get the hardacts early, that's good, let's
take care of it.
So I jumped right up, as alwaysdid, when I spoke and I talked
(10:38):
about our rights.
I did not talk about the youngman who was on the stage or the
young woman who had called himdown off the stage, but I kept
it on my subject, and that's wecan win this battle.
I don't care what's transpiringand happening, we can win.
Whenever I was in the processof making a speech, I made this
(10:59):
speech.
I didn't let anybody cut me off, and once the woman had taken
care of the young man and hemoved off the stage, then I
could really talk about what theissues were for us.
And that's where we had battlesto win and we could win them.
Brad Shreve (11:18):
I think it's important to say your hard work
over the years has beendedicated to all people and not
just Christians, and I love aquote that you have on your
website and it says let me findout, I quote we believe we can
change the world, so for me, mylegacy, I hope, will be inside
and outside of my community.
He was faithful and he wasfearless.
(11:39):
I love that quote.
Based on your history, Icertainly can say you were bold
and faithful and fearless and onbehalf of myself and I'm going
to be so bold as to speak forthe LGBTQ people everywhere
thank you for all you have done.
Troy Perry (11:58):
Well, thank you, brad, so much.
I do not believe Christianityis God's only voice on earth.
I take up for every religion.
I take up for the religious andI take up for those who are not
religious.
I don't care.
I believe that we all have tobe faithful to our call, and
(12:20):
that's to make a difference inthe world.
Brad Shreve (12:23):
Not destroy other people or always be right, but
do the things that are right, Iwant to get to the story behind
the church, but there issomething I'd like to address.
You experienced a lot of strifejust being a minister of the
MCC church and you also havebeen very much in the limelight
as far as an activist goes.
A lot of struggles that youwent through and you made a lot
(12:45):
of advances for everyone.
We're now seeing things gettingpushed back and a lot of people
are disillusioned and what Iwant to find out from you is why
, with everything that's goingon, should I and everyone else
care anymore or have any hope?
Troy Perry (13:00):
You got to have hope .
If you don't have hope, youjust lost it.
And whatever we do, we can'tlose it.
I'll use a military thing thatif the first thing how the
military loses is they lose hopeand that's true with everybody
If we lose hope, we just die andnobody else is going to fight
(13:23):
our fights for us.
If you think anybody else isgoing to fight for us, you're
wrong.
It takes us to have the fight.
Then people would join with us,young people.
I want you to know.
You don't know what it was likeonce upon a time.
This is nothing.
We will win this battle.
This is nothing.
(13:44):
A building burns down, butthank God we're still alive.
A church burns down, but we'restill alive.
They murder bar members, butwe're still alive.
You think those bar members whohad gone in the bar would want
us to stop?
No, I go to bars.
They wouldn't want us to stop.
They would say to us continuethis struggle and whatever we do
(14:07):
, just when you think you can'twin, that's when you'll win.
So don't give up the fight andthe struggle.
It would be too easy and we'renot going to do that.
We're going to continue untilwe've won the battle.
And I really love music and Ilove gospel music and I love
(14:28):
especially African-Americans,the gospel music they sing.
When I hear those gospel songs,they sing in the middle of
segregation and yet they keptfighting.
And today we have movies likeTill that I hope everybody will
look at and sing young man whohas murdered his mother, going
(14:51):
into a church, not letting thembomb the body, but seeing him
exactly as he was.
And thousands of people over10,000 people showed up, 3,200
in the building walking by thecoffin.
Other people white people,black people, politicians all
(15:13):
came and saw Emmett Till's body.
Did it stop the fight?
No, did it stop the persecution?
No, we still won, because todaywe've won that case.
70% of Americans believe weshould have all of our rights.
(15:35):
Now is not the time to stop.
Brad Shreve (15:41):
I'm an atheist, or at least an agnostic, and I am a
Unitarian Universalist.
As you know, you came and spokeat my church.
It was nearly 15 years ago 15to 20 years ago but I don't have
to tell you many LGBTQ peoplehave had negative or even
horrific experiences within thechurch and that resentment is
hard to shape.
(16:01):
And I know some who don'tunderstand how a person can be
queer and Christian and theysometimes can be pretty
antagonistic about it.
I don't come from a religiousbackground so it wasn't a thing
for me, so I don't carry thatbaggage.
I'm fascinated by religion andrespect anyone's beliefs, so it
saddens me when I see thathappen.
(16:21):
Will you address that?
Troy Perry (16:24):
It saddens me too I won't just say number one that
the church mistreated me.
I like to tell people that Iwas a young person raised in the
South in a very, veryconservative Pentecostal group
and I was a licensed preacher inthe Southern Baptist Church and
(16:46):
started preaching when I was 13years old in the Pentecostal
Church and was licensed topreach at age 16 in the Southern
Baptist Church.
They threw me out of the churchat age 19 when they found out
that I was gay and I believedall the lies that people tell
you.
Oh God can't love you, you're agay man, oh God hates you.
(17:11):
Don't you realize that God'snot going to hear your prayers?
People always talk that way tome.
But things happen in my life.
I'm always a believer in thingsjust happen in your life and
you're going to live a lot ofexperiences and that's exactly
what happened to me and I dideverything the church told me to
(17:34):
do.
They told me that if I wouldmarry a good woman, that would
take care of that problem.
I married, they said, if I'dhave children, that would take
care of that problem, that gayproblem.
I had two sons.
If you're a celbut, if youdon't have sex with men that'll
take care of the problem.
No, it'll lead you alive.
It was very interesting to me.
(17:58):
I went into the military in 1965.
Vietnam was just starting, hadmet gay people in Los Angeles.
After my wife and I hadseparated, I moved into LA and I
met gay people.
And now I have gay people whoare saying to me when I have
(18:20):
tried to receive my draft notice, they said are you going to let
them draft you into themilitary?
Are you going to check themagic block?
And I said what magic block?
And they said right undertuberculosis and cancer is
homosexual tendencies and if youcheck that block, that'll keep
(18:42):
you out of the military.
And I said what is the question?
And they said homosexualtendencies.
I said I don't have homosexualtendencies, I am a homosexual.
And I went into the military.
Brad, I looked out and didn't goto Vietnam, I went to Germany.
I'm in Kaiser Schlot in Germanyand, my God, I never met more
(19:06):
gay people in my life than I didin the military.
Had we all been put out of themilitary, had all of us been
discharged, they couldn't havehad an army, and they knew it
During wartime.
The US military has alwaystaken us in Only later in the
(19:28):
war is they're winding down tostart looking for gay people and
throw us out.
So me, I came back and felldeeply, madly in love.
For the first time I met a man.
Larry was a school teacher fromMontana and just my type and he
(19:50):
and I.
We didn't do well together.
I always felt people.
I had six of the best and worstmonths of my life and we
decided he did, that he wasgoing to leave me.
Well, I dated Larry, weseparated and then I cut both of
(20:12):
my wrists, climbed into abathtub, just hoped I would die.
Thank God, as I tell people, myroommate, the person who lived
with me, came in when he got inthe door and he heard water
running and came over thebathroom, knocked on the door
and said hey, troy, are you okay?
And when I didn't answer, hebroke the door down and found me
(20:36):
in the tub.
Willie Smith rushed me to CountyGeneral and when I arrived at
County General, I'm sittingthere.
All at once I thought it was anurse, looked like a nurse as
uniform, but all at once thisAfrican American woman walked in
and said I don't know whyyou've done this.
But she said Can't you talk tosomebody.
(20:57):
Can't you look up?
She pushed every religiousbutton on me and then she left.
And when she did, I broke downcrying and I said God, I know
you're not going to hear ananswer to this prayer.
God, I just don't know what todo.
Here I am, I'm a gay person,and I don't know what to do.
(21:24):
I'm miserable.
I attempted and even though itdidn't work, here I am.
And about that time the doctorcame in.
Finally, when he finished, shesaid Now I want to know
something.
Are you going to be okay or doI need to keep you here?
I said Well, what do you think?
And he says it's not importantwhat I think, it's what you
(21:47):
think.
You make this decision I don't.
Now you tell me, will you beall right or do you want me to
keep you for 72 hours?
When I got home, I went to bedthat night.
Next morning woke up and Williecame into my room, woke me up
and said Are you going to beokay or should I stay with you?
(22:08):
And I said no, I'm going to beokay.
And so Willie said Is thereanything you need?
I said no and he left, and eventhough he was gone, I really
prayed.
From the bed, the first thing Ithought of was oh God, I've got
to go buy some long sleeveshirts.
If Sears knew about this, theywould fire me.
(22:32):
It's so funny how, after youtry to kill yourself, the first
thing you think about is yourjob.
And you've lived through it.
How am I going to do this?
Brad Shreve (22:43):
So I can't do this.
I have a deadline.
Troy Perry (22:46):
That's right.
And so immediately after thathappened, brad, here again I
broke down crying and I said God, I know you're not going to
hear this prayer, but I said Iknow the church has taught me
that my church has taught me.
You can't hear me, you don'tcare about me, and I always tell
(23:12):
people.
After I said that, god spoke tome in a still small voice and
said to me Troy, don't tell mewhat I can and can't do.
I love you, you're my son and Idon't have stepson's and
daughters.
So with that I knew I could bea Christian and I could be a gay
(23:33):
person.
I knew without a shadow of adoubt that God loved me.
I didn't have all the answersyet, but I knew without a shadow
of a doubt I was going to getso many of them and I would get
them all right up to the timethat I died.
And 83 years later here I'mstill getting answers every day.
(23:54):
And how thankful I am thatafter that, after God spoke to
me and said God loved me, then Iknew God had to love other
people.
And right after that I went ona date with a young man to a gay
bar in Wimmington, the sectionof LA down in the dock area.
(24:18):
While we were there to make along story short, the police
came in and arrested about 12people for lewd and lascivious
conduct.
Well, I was watching the couplebecause it was my date and a
friend of ours and I knew bothof them had hilarious sense of
(24:42):
humor and one of them, billHastings, reached up and slapped
my date on the butt and he cameback over to me and one of the
cops followed him over to me andwhen he got there he pulled out
of bed and said come outsidewith me.
I said who are you talking to?
He said not you him.
Immediately he spoke up andsaid what are you charging me
(25:08):
with?
He said lute and lasciviousconduct.
They left and they owned thebar got up and said we are all
going to the police station.
I know there has to be aflorist here.
I want all the flowers you have.
We're gonna take down flowers.
And he said we're gonna get oursister's belt out of jail Now.
(25:29):
This was my first demonstration, all right and like this, and I
thought, oh my God, we're goingdown to the police station, but
here we go and we got downthere.
And, sure enough, when we gotthere.
When we walked in, lee walkedover to it and some of us
(25:50):
followed him right over thereand he said I'm here to get my
sister's belt out of jail.
And this cop said watch yoursisters his name.
And he said ha ha, ha, ha, haha.
And he said Bill Hastings andTony Valdiv and with that he
called for backup.
(26:11):
And all these cops came to thefront room and we would not
leave.
We continued to joke with thepolice officers, to talk to them
, try to tell them about.
Yeah, well, you know, there'slots of gay people, you're gonna
see a lot of us just talking,you know what I mean, but not
(26:33):
getting nasty.
We said don't get nasty, justtalk.
And so we said we, you know,there, here's the 12 of us and
the two in jail.
And they kept missing them,kept losing them, kept, you know
, there's been sent somewhereelse.
We would not leave.
We said, well, we're waitinghere.
We know what the law is.
(26:53):
You gotta bring them here forus to build them out of jail.
And the bellows bondsman wasworking with them and all at
once they said here they are.
And we all applauded like mad.
The police still didn't knowwhat to do because we were not
afraid of them.
And we went.
We got in our cars.
I went back home with Tony.
(27:15):
He broke down crying.
I said they're gonna drop thecharges.
Just wait, that's what the guysaid they're gonna drop the
charges.
And sure enough they droppedthe charges on our two people
that we got out.
But I kept going back to praying.
Okay, god, you said you love me, all right.
(27:37):
You said when do you want that?
You know, I've tried to go tochurch and I can't find anywhere
to go.
You tell me, where do you, ifyou want a church, started, not
a gay church, but a Christianchurch that's open to everybody,
and that means everybody.
Just let me know when.
(27:58):
And the still, the small voicesaid now, and with that took out
a maddening advocate here atReverend Troy Perry.
The advocate was the large gaynewspaper at that time, the only
one, and I took it out of mad.
Here at Reverend Troy Perrygave me a address in Huntington
Park.
12 people came two persons ofcolor, a heterosexual couple.
(28:23):
You know, I looked back at itand I think it was the view of
things to come for a MCC.
All those gay males that werethere too.
I am so thankful to God and theservice was incredible.
I called a funeral home and saidwell, you loan me 15 chairs for
(28:45):
the first service of our churchwe're having.
Oh, yes, we would be happy to,and they did.
Then I had a pastor friend whoowned me loaned me the 15 choir
hymnals you know the hymns.
The thing out of Then straightman at work who was a carpenter
(29:06):
for the store, he made the crossand the top to go up behind my
preaching area and in front ofmy preaching area was our coffee
table, which served as ourfirst communion, and an ash tray
, and my boss, who was gay, atin his lover, gave me a cup that
(29:27):
I used as a chalice for thefirst service.
And it was very, veryinteresting.
Four years ago the Smithsonianasked me for a collection that
they wanted to put in theircollection for gay folk and I
was able to put together thecollection of things like the
(29:50):
Book of Common Prayer that I usein all my marriages and all my
funerals and throughout MC'shistory.
They got that.
They got my vestments.
They received a hymn book thatwent through the fire.
We had another hymn book afterthat with inclusive language.
(30:13):
I had other things that weregiven in the day as for a large
collection and they received itI would have never thought, when
I opened the doors of thechurch to those 12 people, that
the Smithsonian, the Museum ofAmerican History, would call me
one day and say the thing y'alldid was historical and we want
(30:35):
to make sure that we have themhere in the museum.
So I am very thankful when Ilook back.
Most of the people in fact allof the people except me, as far
as I know is not alive of the LAgroup, that where we started
the church here first.
(30:55):
They are deceased.
But we went through everythingtogether and today, how proud I
am.
I was just.
I'd received an email from oneof our churches in Brazil I
don't read Portuguese, but thankGod for translators anymore and
(31:17):
they were sending us sayingwe're dedicating a room to you,
reverend Perry, and that's wherewe feed people who are hungry.
So it's the Troy Perry FoodPantry Memorial, and so I was
very touched by that.
Brad Shreve (31:34):
And is there something surreal about that,
though, there?
Troy Perry (31:37):
is People, don't you know?
You gotta go through it, Iguess, till it's the way it is.
But it is surreal.
When I'm invited to the WhiteHouse, I've been invited by
three American presidents to theWhite.
Brad Shreve (31:51):
House.
You've been there five times.
Three presidents, that'scorrect.
Troy Perry (31:56):
And I stop and I look at it and I just shake my
head of when I leave.
I'm very.
What thrills me is they invitedPhilip the last time.
The other two were beforePhilip, and Philip is my partner
of 38 years, Philip de Blic.
(32:16):
We talk, he and I both talkabout it how unreal it seems
some days.
Today, we are members of theWorld Council of Churches and we
go to the World Council ofChurches every four years and we
celebrate with them and we meetmore people from other cultures
(32:38):
that have heard about us andknow about us.
They you know, they havedifferent historians who've
interviewed me said Troy, you'reone of those church groups.
Everybody knows who you areBecause quote you're the gay
church and we have churches allover the world.
We have doctors who go toplaces like Uganda and we pay to
(33:03):
have children's medicine forchildren and shot for children,
and we have our own doc.
Go into those cultures and doclinics for children, for HIV,
for coronavirus, you name it.
We do it.
We call it the metropolitanclinics.
(33:28):
We've learned how to work insome countries and I continue to
hope and pray that God cancontinue to use me.
Now, this coming year, Philipand I are going to do some of
this the last thing on my bucketlist that I've wanted to do,
and it's not churchy I've beento a general audience for this
(33:52):
holiness to Pope, wrote them andasked them could I be in a
general audience.
They invited me and sent theinvitations.
I'm one of the only 100Protestants who are invited to
protest in with this holiness.
In South Carolina, when PopeJohn Paul II was the Pope and
(34:18):
his assistant became the nextPope of this book.
So it was very interesting andI continue to do things.
The thing I want to do is Ijust discovered that there is a
cruise that Philip and I aregoing to take.
We like the cruise for 54 daysthat takes us down the Pacific
(34:46):
side of the Americas toAntarctica.
I have been on every continentexcept Antarctica and this
cruise will let me get toAntarctica.
(35:06):
Then I'll come back up the otherside of the Americas and end
the cruise, leaving in LA,ending it in Port Lauderdale,
Florida.
Brad Shreve (35:18):
That sounds like an incredible trip.
I want to speak to something.
In 1970, the year afterStonewall, you co-founded
Christopher Street West and weknow today as the first Pride
Parade in Los Angeles.
I'm used to parades as they aretoday.
It's a carnival field.
Back in 2008, I joinedthousands and marched along the
(35:39):
beach when Prop 8 passed.
It was a much different feeling.
We were angry, we were beyondangry, but it was so powerful.
It was a sense of unity andbelonging.
I have not felt sense, can Itell you something.
Troy Perry (35:54):
I really believe, brad, with all of my heart that
young people have heard that wenow have two wonderful Pride
parades here in LA.
I can tell you one of thoseparades are already changing.
Oh, yes, they've got the floatsin them, but they're shouting
(36:14):
from the floats.
They've got all kinds of peoplewho are with us.
I loved looking down and seeingthe Assistic District Attorney
of Los Angeles Association Goodpoint, I love it, thank God,
here I'm looking at this andthey're straights and gays.
(36:38):
A few years ago, phillip and Iinvited a heterosexual couple
who's a friend of ours One was apolice officer, she is an
attorney or husband's a memberof the Ventura Bottom Squad and
they were pro-gay.
I got to know the family really, really well.
I was being honored by ourPride committee here and I
(37:03):
invited them to go with mebecause I wanted to use them as
props.
To all the folks out there whosay we can't win, I'm saying
these are the people we want towin with.
We want to meet heterosexualNext year.
We want to invite ourheterosexual friends and don't
(37:24):
invite a homosexual.
Invite your heterosexualfriends.
I've always been one of thosebelievers.
I said early on that if we allcame out of the closet.
If we'd all come out to ourmothers and fathers, that's
three right there.
If you then came out to yourbrothers and sisters, for me
(37:45):
that would be five more.
And then when they starttelling their friends which
they're going to, how, everybodylaughed.
I said thousands of people aregoing to know very quickly that
we're gay.
And that's exactly whathappened.
I don't mean that I was thefirst person, maybe to say that,
(38:05):
but that all kinds of peoplestarted joining in.
The next thing for me was when Istarted having demonstrations
and I said I had demonstrationsbefore.
We had Christopher Street, westpray.
My first demonstration wasbased on a firing of a young man
(38:26):
in San Francisco and theycalled me and said a young man
has been fired here, the companyheadquarters in Los Angeles.
Would you, as we demonstrate uphere, would y'all demonstrate
down there?
And I may retalk to Morris Kite, others of our early little
group and I said they wonder whoto demonstrate.
(38:48):
I'm going to, we all do it.
And they said yeah, and soimmediately we held a
demonstration and at thatdemonstration we ended up three
days.
First day, people would comeand stand and stare at us.
I mean Brad there wasn't nobodyapplauding, Nobody was saying a
(39:12):
word, it was just dead silence.
The next day, we all at oncestarted our you know shouts.
If you're proud and you're gay,you know, say it.
You know what I mean.
If you're proud and you're gay,say it you know, and people
would say right back to us, youknow.
(39:33):
Then the third day they starteddropping bags of water out of
the top of the building tryingto wet us, and we never wore wet
, but other business people woreit.
Oh my God.
But who went running thebuilding became our allies very
quickly After it happened.
But we didn't go away.
(39:54):
We waited for the next eventAfter that.
Now we're going to wait for thestate theme ship company give
them an opportunity to talk backto them up there.
And so after that we were backagain making sure that we said
if they come for us or we needto go to them, we will go to
(40:15):
them.
We're not going to wait forthem to come.
This morning and I said today,this demonstration that we're
having is one of the state, theCalifornia State Building, and
we're going to ask that theCalifornia State move the law
that's on the books that make uscriminals, and we wanted the
(40:36):
anti-ecidemy laws off the book.
I told our church group you'renot going to get hurt, just come
and march with me.
Well, my God, we had a crowd ofabout 250 people who showed up
and they marched with me fromall over the street where the
first Catholic church is at tothe states pardon me to the
(41:00):
California State Building.
And we got up and there aremovies of that demonstration
where I'm talking and we weredetermined we were going to.
Well, everybody went back andtell them.
Guess what?
We didn't get hurt.
Our next demonstration.
I said we need anotherdemonstration.
(41:21):
This demonstration is againstthe police department.
We're going to march on theHollywood police department.
You know what?
A thousand people showed up atHollywood High School.
And, my lord, here we are thereand the police.
All at once his policemotorcyclist rode his motorcycle
up on the the the pardon mehigh school on and he said who's
(41:45):
in charge here?
And I said to him you knowwho's in charge here.
What do you want?
And he said there's a bunch ofMarines around on the Boulevard
just waiting for this group.
I said oh groovy, we've got menwho are into Marines, so
they're going to love it.
I just, I used my voice, I justwould not let them use that
(42:07):
with me.
And well, and of course, by thetime we marched and we got
around there, there were no moreMarines on Hollywood Boulevard.
They were gone.
Well, you scared them away,that's it.
I told the crowd that ifthere's a thousand, I mean
there's a bunch of Marinesaround there waiting.
(42:27):
Don't worry, they'll leave theminute they see us.
This is too big for a crowd.
They're not going to be in afistfight with us.
Brad Shreve (42:33):
Well, I would think , when the word got out that a
thousand Marines were waitingfor you, your crowd would have
doubled, and that right, you gotit.
Troy Perry (42:40):
You got it.
It was going to doubleeverything.
And you know what?
The police were scared of us.
And, my God, I told everybodybefore we get there I don't want
to hear any sound, no soundexcept the bottom of our shoes
on the ground as we march infront of the police station,
because we had already found outthey had guns on top of the
(43:02):
police station.
I mean, you know, I couldn'tbelieve it.
And we got around there, sureenough, standing with their
rifles up on top of the policestation, and we held our
demonstration.
And when we got through, Imarched them back up to where we
had started the demonstrationand told everybody thank you.
(43:26):
And the next thing we held wasChristopher Street West.
Brad Shreve (43:32):
What is something everyone can do right now to
make a difference?
Troy Perry (43:39):
What everybody can do right now and make a
difference in is join anorganization that fights with
hope for your freedom If that'swhat they want.
Brad Shreve (43:52):
they got to get their boots on the ground.
Troy Perry (43:56):
It's really the truth, brad.
If I'm 83, I have mobilityproblems, I'm not well, I know
that probably my life isn't long, and yet I tell young people
all the time it's not about me,it's about all of you.
(44:16):
What are you going to do next?
Not Troy Perry, I've done mypart.
When I meet God, I hope I hearGod say well done, my good and
faithful servant.
Brad Shreve (44:30):
And that I'm welcome.
There's a line in oh God whichis one of my favorite movies
because Burns played my conceptof God and I'm paraphrasing here
.
But John Denver said somethinglike if you got, why do we have
all the trouble in the world?
Why don't you do somethingabout it?
And God said I did do somethingabout it.
I gave you each other.
Why aren't you doing somethingabout?
Troy Perry (44:51):
it.
Yeah, and it's really the truth.
We can never not forget that.
That's the thing.
But when you join something,also don't let people get away
with things Just think becauseI've joined, whatever it is,
(45:11):
that's going to make adifference.
No, you got to.
If you hear somebody saysomething that is saying
something and your, your group,is not there, you need to learn,
if they've said it to a group,how to answer back.
No, that's not true.
Brad Shreve (45:28):
Thank you so much for being my guest.
It's an honor to see you againAgain.
I appreciate everything you'vedone over the years.
You've really made a differenceand not enough people know how
much work you've done.
Troy Perry (45:39):
Well, I so much appreciate the work you do.
Because of your work and thispodcast, it will help others to
see.
I hope that we can all makethis together.
Brad Shreve (45:51):
I hope so too.
Troy Perry (45:52):
Thank you, Brad.
This is Queer we Are.
I'm Brad Shreem and on Queer weAre.
There's no pretending the worldis all rainbows and unicorns.
It can be rough out there, buteach week I give you a break
from those ugly headlines.
(00:20):
Now we may bring thosechallenges up, but we don't stay
there long.
We don't dwell on the problemsmy guests share, what they're
doing to make a difference orhow they keep hope alive when
it's hard to do so.
Or maybe they're just here toentertain, which is a gift.
My guest is Reverend Troy Perryand, based on feedback, I know
(00:41):
many of you just cringed becauseI said the word Reverend.
And yes, troy is a Christianand a religious leader, but
remember, martin Luther King wasa minister too and, like King,
reverend Perry has served allpeople, regardless of their
religious beliefs or lack of it,and also regardless of sexual
(01:01):
identification.
Troy relates to those who, withreligious backgrounds that left
them scarred.
He had the same issue.
Now, if that defines you, hegets it and he understands.
It may never be for you, but 55years ago this month, reverend
Perry started the MetropolitanCommunity Church in the living
(01:23):
room of his Los Angeles home,with 12 congregants.
Now that's a humble beginning,but today there are over 222
congregations in 37 countries.
Now, many people refer to theMCC as the gay church, but it's
much, much more than that, andshh don't tell anyone, but
(01:44):
there's actually some straightpeople there too.
So, in addition to succeedingand launching and growing the
MCC, he has a history andseveral rights for all LGBTQ
people, including, but notlimited to, co-founding the
Christopher Street West, whichorganized the first Pride March
in 1970.
In 1973, he rushed to NewOrleans to support the community
(02:05):
after the horrific fire at theupstairs lounge gay bar, the
worst incident of his kind untilthe Pulse nightclub incident in
Orlando in 2016.
In 1979, he helped organize theMarch in Washington, which had
100,000 LGBTQ people there.
So don't say that we can't jointogether and work together.
(02:27):
I'm going to hold you for aminute for exciting news.
Right now, the QueerWeRShotcomis open for business and you can
click the link in the shownotes now and still listen to
this episode.
And with me is my graphicdesigner, denise.
Hi Brad.
Denise has worked with me foryears.
(02:48):
She designed my websites,several of my logos, my book
covers.
The list goes on, in fact.
Every week, at the bottom ofthe show notes, you'll see a
link to UmiWorks, which isDenise's business, and you can
check on her work as well.
Now, denise, here's what weknow that people are going to
find at QueerWeRShotcom.
Every podcast has theirt-shirts and maybe one or two
(03:09):
more, but we actually don't haveany.
We have many t-shirts, plus, wehave sweatshirts and coffee
mugs, with more in the way aswinter is biting our heels.
We also have other excitingproducts.
We're busy designing, andhoping to have soon, many home
products.
We were lazy, though, and wecopied all the designs that we
(03:29):
could see from Amazon andRedbubble.
Denise Shiozawa (03:32):
No way, brad.
You do have some hot, trendyslogans that you've probably
seen before, like Queer AF andStay Woke, but we also have
plenty you won't see anywhereelse.
I think we've come up for somepretty fun and sometimes thought
provoking designs.
Brad Shreve (03:49):
We thought them up, so how could there be anything
less?
Right right.
I'd podcast no matter what, butputting on a quality show takes
money, so I'll be promoting theshop without beating you over
the head with them.
This store is bigger than theshow, though.
This is a career.
So I'm not doing Patreon,though it is under consideration
(04:11):
because some listeners haveasked for it, but I won't bore
you with ads for that onlinetherapy company you keep hearing
on other shows or that placethat delivers actually, there's
several of them delivers fresh,expensive foods to your door, so
check the shop nowQueerRShopcom.
So, regarding Troy Perry,denise, don't go anywhere.
(04:32):
As I said, I'm Brad Shrieve andmy guest is Troy Perry and
Queer.
We Are Happy 55th anniversaryto Metropolitan Community Church
.
Reverend Troy, thank you somuch.
Troy Perry (04:48):
It's been 55 years since that first service in
Huntington Park, california.
I'm thankful to God I'm stillalive here.
I am 83 years old.
Talking about what transpiredand what happened back then.
Brad Shreve (05:04):
So that was back in 1968 and you founded the church
in your living room with 12people attending, and today your
church now has 300congregations in 22 countries.
Tell me what you're feelingthis month.
Troy Perry (05:20):
I am feeling incredible this month.
I'm very thankful that I'velived to be 83 years old.
I'm thankful that good thingsare continuing still in my life.
You know that I still havewonderful friends who I knew
then and who are alive today.
(05:40):
I was just talking to Lynn, oneof my friends.
Lynn was in the Air Force.
I was in the Army.
We were near each other's campsduring Vietnam.
We were both Vietnam eraveterans.
We met each other there andLynn ended up back coming to
America and I told him I'm goingto be speaking there.
(06:03):
I want you to come up and hearme.
And Lynn came up and heard meand stayed in the church and he
just celebrated his 53rdanniversary in MCC.
But he's no longer than that.
He knew me in the military.
So here we are today, Thank God, good things happening every
(06:23):
day.
Brad Shreve (06:25):
Well, you were still pretty small fry then, so
he saw a lot happen.
Troy Perry (06:30):
Yes, he did.
He says that too.
He loved going.
The church in San Francisco hadjust started after our church,
about nine months later, andthey invited me to come up and
preach at California Hall and,of course, san Francisco being
San Francisco, always laugh.
(06:51):
They could be negative or theycould be positive.
They chose to be negative andsaying, well, they only had 800
people there.
Brad Shreve (07:01):
He didn't have Only had 800 for the first service,
for the first service.
Troy Perry (07:06):
They'd never had 800 people out in the open with
their faces with no makeup on,ever in San Francisco until I
spoke there.
I think that's amazing.
Oh yeah, no, it was amazing andthey laughed in the press and
they said that they were cuttingup.
They really meant that it wasamazing that I could come into
(07:28):
the city.
But people were really curiousabout me.
I spoke in New York City.
It was very interesting.
I was invited to speak there inabout 1973 or four and I was
there because we were going tohave the first demonstration at
(07:48):
the state capitol in Albany andGAA Gay Activist Alliance
invited me to come into the cityand to speak and I was to speak
at a festival of unity atColumbia University.
That night we had over 2,500people who came.
The auditorium was packed.
(08:09):
So this wasn't a slow growth.
This was not slow growth timewith MCC or with the larger gay,
lesbian, bi-transgender, queercommunity.
It just wasn't that way.
It was very fast at first, whenI was time for me to speak at
Columbia, I go, the place ispacked.
(08:30):
Oh my God.
Female singer she was thesinger before I spoke and she
was a Broadway star.
She was in the musical Gains inNew York.
Wonderful, wonderful musicaland we invited her.
Well, after she finishedsinging, this guy jumped up on
(08:55):
the stage, started screamingthat how dare we invite a
heterosexual to sing at a gayevent?
Brad Shreve (09:05):
Those people.
Troy Perry (09:06):
Yeah, I was thrilled to have an ally willing to come
and sing.
I always have been.
I'm one of those strange gayleaders.
They always said that I wasthrilled to death.
My organization everyone callsit a gay organization, but there
are heterosexuals who aremembers of MCC.
(09:27):
Well, here this guy.
Then the auditorium startedbooing him.
Next thing I know this is thefirst time I've told this story,
but the next thing I know hehas pulled out his personal and
shook it at the crowd.
I couldn't believe it.
And then the crowd really didget nasty.
(09:51):
And when they did, all of oncethis lesbian in the crowd said
Johnny, or whatever his name was.
She used her voice to get hisattention.
Johnny, you're just like everyother fucking man Using your
(10:13):
dick as a weapon.
The next thing.
I know he's off the stage andhere I am.
That's my turn to speak, andthat's a hard act to follow.
This is a hard act to follow,but this is.
If I'm going to get the hardacts early, that's good, let's
take care of it.
So I jumped right up, as alwaysdid, when I spoke and I talked
(10:38):
about our rights.
I did not talk about the youngman who was on the stage or the
young woman who had called himdown off the stage, but I kept
it on my subject, and that's wecan win this battle.
I don't care what's transpiringand happening, we can win.
Whenever I was in the processof making a speech, I made this
(10:59):
speech.
I didn't let anybody cut me off, and once the woman had taken
care of the young man and hemoved off the stage, then I
could really talk about what theissues were for us.
And that's where we had battlesto win and we could win them.
Brad Shreve (11:18):
I think it's important to say your hard work
over the years has beendedicated to all people and not
just Christians, and I love aquote that you have on your
website and it says let me findout, I quote we believe we can
change the world, so for me, mylegacy, I hope, will be inside
and outside of my community.
He was faithful and he wasfearless.
(11:39):
I love that quote.
Based on your history, Icertainly can say you were bold
and faithful and fearless and onbehalf of myself and I'm going
to be so bold as to speak forthe LGBTQ people everywhere
thank you for all you have done.
Troy Perry (11:58):
Well, thank you, brad, so much.
I do not believe Christianityis God's only voice on earth.
I take up for every religion.
I take up for the religious andI take up for those who are not
religious.
I don't care.
I believe that we all have tobe faithful to our call, and
(12:20):
that's to make a difference inthe world.
Brad Shreve (12:23):
Not destroy other people or always be right, but
do the things that are right, Iwant to get to the story behind
the church, but there issomething I'd like to address.
You experienced a lot of strifejust being a minister of the
MCC church and you also havebeen very much in the limelight
as far as an activist goes.
A lot of struggles that youwent through and you made a lot
(12:45):
of advances for everyone.
We're now seeing things gettingpushed back and a lot of people
are disillusioned and what Iwant to find out from you is why
, with everything that's goingon, should I and everyone else
care anymore or have any hope?
Troy Perry (13:00):
You got to have hope .
If you don't have hope, youjust lost it.
And whatever we do, we can'tlose it.
I'll use a military thing thatif the first thing how the
military loses is they lose hopeand that's true with everybody
If we lose hope, we just die andnobody else is going to fight
(13:23):
our fights for us.
If you think anybody else isgoing to fight for us, you're
wrong.
It takes us to have the fight.
Then people would join with us,young people.
I want you to know.
You don't know what it was likeonce upon a time.
This is nothing.
We will win this battle.
This is nothing.
(13:44):
A building burns down, butthank God we're still alive.
A church burns down, but we'restill alive.
They murder bar members, butwe're still alive.
You think those bar members whohad gone in the bar would want
us to stop?
No, I go to bars.
They wouldn't want us to stop.
They would say to us continuethis struggle and whatever we do
(14:07):
, just when you think you can'twin, that's when you'll win.
So don't give up the fight andthe struggle.
It would be too easy and we'renot going to do that.
We're going to continue untilwe've won the battle.
And I really love music and Ilove gospel music and I love
(14:28):
especially African-Americans,the gospel music they sing.
When I hear those gospel songs,they sing in the middle of
segregation and yet they keptfighting.
And today we have movies likeTill that I hope everybody will
look at and sing young man whohas murdered his mother, going
(14:51):
into a church, not letting thembomb the body, but seeing him
exactly as he was.
And thousands of people over10,000 people showed up, 3,200
in the building walking by thecoffin.
Other people white people,black people, politicians all
(15:13):
came and saw Emmett Till's body.
Did it stop the fight?
No, did it stop the persecution?
No, we still won, because todaywe've won that case.
70% of Americans believe weshould have all of our rights.
(15:35):
Now is not the time to stop.
Brad Shreve (15:41):
I'm an atheist, or at least an agnostic, and I am a
Unitarian Universalist.
As you know, you came and spokeat my church.
It was nearly 15 years ago 15to 20 years ago but I don't have
to tell you many LGBTQ peoplehave had negative or even
horrific experiences within thechurch and that resentment is
hard to shape.
(16:01):
And I know some who don'tunderstand how a person can be
queer and Christian and theysometimes can be pretty
antagonistic about it.
I don't come from a religiousbackground so it wasn't a thing
for me, so I don't carry thatbaggage.
I'm fascinated by religion andrespect anyone's beliefs, so it
saddens me when I see thathappen.
(16:21):
Will you address that?
Troy Perry (16:24):
It saddens me too I won't just say number one that
the church mistreated me.
I like to tell people that Iwas a young person raised in the
South in a very, veryconservative Pentecostal group
and I was a licensed preacher inthe Southern Baptist Church and
(16:46):
started preaching when I was 13years old in the Pentecostal
Church and was licensed topreach at age 16 in the Southern
Baptist Church.
They threw me out of the churchat age 19 when they found out
that I was gay and I believedall the lies that people tell
you.
Oh God can't love you, you're agay man, oh God hates you.
(17:11):
Don't you realize that God'snot going to hear your prayers?
People always talk that way tome.
But things happen in my life.
I'm always a believer in thingsjust happen in your life and
you're going to live a lot ofexperiences and that's exactly
what happened to me and I dideverything the church told me to
(17:34):
do.
They told me that if I wouldmarry a good woman, that would
take care of that problem.
I married, they said, if I'dhave children, that would take
care of that problem, that gayproblem.
I had two sons.
If you're a celbut, if youdon't have sex with men that'll
take care of the problem.
No, it'll lead you alive.
It was very interesting to me.
(17:58):
I went into the military in 1965.
Vietnam was just starting, hadmet gay people in Los Angeles.
After my wife and I hadseparated, I moved into LA and I
met gay people.
And now I have gay people whoare saying to me when I have
(18:20):
tried to receive my draft notice, they said are you going to let
them draft you into themilitary?
Are you going to check themagic block?
And I said what magic block?
And they said right undertuberculosis and cancer is
homosexual tendencies and if youcheck that block, that'll keep
(18:42):
you out of the military.
And I said what is the question?
And they said homosexualtendencies.
I said I don't have homosexualtendencies, I am a homosexual.
And I went into the military.
Brad, I looked out and didn't goto Vietnam, I went to Germany.
I'm in Kaiser Schlot in Germanyand, my God, I never met more
(19:06):
gay people in my life than I didin the military.
Had we all been put out of themilitary, had all of us been
discharged, they couldn't havehad an army, and they knew it
During wartime.
The US military has alwaystaken us in Only later in the
(19:28):
war is they're winding down tostart looking for gay people and
throw us out.
So me, I came back and felldeeply, madly in love.
For the first time I met a man.
Larry was a school teacher fromMontana and just my type and he
(19:50):
and I.
We didn't do well together.
I always felt people.
I had six of the best and worstmonths of my life and we
decided he did, that he wasgoing to leave me.
Well, I dated Larry, weseparated and then I cut both of
(20:12):
my wrists, climbed into abathtub, just hoped I would die.
Thank God, as I tell people, myroommate, the person who lived
with me, came in when he got inthe door and he heard water
running and came over thebathroom, knocked on the door
and said hey, troy, are you okay?
And when I didn't answer, hebroke the door down and found me
(20:36):
in the tub.
Willie Smith rushed me to CountyGeneral and when I arrived at
County General, I'm sittingthere.
All at once I thought it was anurse, looked like a nurse as
uniform, but all at once thisAfrican American woman walked in
and said I don't know whyyou've done this.
But she said Can't you talk tosomebody.
(20:57):
Can't you look up?
She pushed every religiousbutton on me and then she left.
And when she did, I broke downcrying and I said God, I know
you're not going to hear ananswer to this prayer.
God, I just don't know what todo.
Here I am, I'm a gay person,and I don't know what to do.
(21:24):
I'm miserable.
I attempted and even though itdidn't work, here I am.
And about that time the doctorcame in.
Finally, when he finished, shesaid Now I want to know
something.
Are you going to be okay or doI need to keep you here?
I said Well, what do you think?
And he says it's not importantwhat I think, it's what you
(21:47):
think.
You make this decision I don't.
Now you tell me, will you beall right or do you want me to
keep you for 72 hours?
When I got home, I went to bedthat night.
Next morning woke up and Williecame into my room, woke me up
and said Are you going to beokay or should I stay with you?
(22:08):
And I said no, I'm going to beokay.
And so Willie said Is thereanything you need?
I said no and he left, and eventhough he was gone, I really
prayed.
From the bed, the first thing Ithought of was oh God, I've got
to go buy some long sleeveshirts.
If Sears knew about this, theywould fire me.
(22:32):
It's so funny how, after youtry to kill yourself, the first
thing you think about is yourjob.
And you've lived through it.
How am I going to do this?
Brad Shreve (22:43):
So I can't do this.
I have a deadline.
Troy Perry (22:46):
That's right.
And so immediately after thathappened, brad, here again I
broke down crying and I said God, I know you're not going to
hear this prayer, but I said Iknow the church has taught me
that my church has taught me.
You can't hear me, you don'tcare about me, and I always tell
(23:12):
people.
After I said that, god spoke tome in a still small voice and
said to me Troy, don't tell mewhat I can and can't do.
I love you, you're my son and Idon't have stepson's and
daughters.
So with that I knew I could bea Christian and I could be a gay
(23:33):
person.
I knew without a shadow of adoubt that God loved me.
I didn't have all the answersyet, but I knew without a shadow
of a doubt I was going to getso many of them and I would get
them all right up to the timethat I died.
And 83 years later here I'mstill getting answers every day.
(23:54):
And how thankful I am thatafter that, after God spoke to
me and said God loved me, then Iknew God had to love other
people.
And right after that I went ona date with a young man to a gay
bar in Wimmington, the sectionof LA down in the dock area.
(24:18):
While we were there to make along story short, the police
came in and arrested about 12people for lewd and lascivious
conduct.
Well, I was watching the couplebecause it was my date and a
friend of ours and I knew bothof them had hilarious sense of
(24:42):
humor and one of them, billHastings, reached up and slapped
my date on the butt and he cameback over to me and one of the
cops followed him over to me andwhen he got there he pulled out
of bed and said come outsidewith me.
I said who are you talking to?
He said not you him.
Immediately he spoke up andsaid what are you charging me
(25:08):
with?
He said lute and lasciviousconduct.
They left and they owned thebar got up and said we are all
going to the police station.
I know there has to be aflorist here.
I want all the flowers you have.
We're gonna take down flowers.
And he said we're gonna get oursister's belt out of jail Now.
(25:29):
This was my first demonstration, all right and like this, and I
thought, oh my God, we're goingdown to the police station, but
here we go and we got downthere.
And, sure enough, when we gotthere.
When we walked in, lee walkedover to it and some of us
(25:50):
followed him right over thereand he said I'm here to get my
sister's belt out of jail.
And this cop said watch yoursisters his name.
And he said ha ha, ha, ha, haha.
And he said Bill Hastings andTony Valdiv and with that he
called for backup.
(26:11):
And all these cops came to thefront room and we would not
leave.
We continued to joke with thepolice officers, to talk to them
, try to tell them about.
Yeah, well, you know, there'slots of gay people, you're gonna
see a lot of us just talking,you know what I mean, but not
(26:33):
getting nasty.
We said don't get nasty, justtalk.
And so we said we, you know,there, here's the 12 of us and
the two in jail.
And they kept missing them,kept losing them, kept, you know
, there's been sent somewhereelse.
We would not leave.
We said, well, we're waitinghere.
We know what the law is.
(26:53):
You gotta bring them here forus to build them out of jail.
And the bellows bondsman wasworking with them and all at
once they said here they are.
And we all applauded like mad.
The police still didn't knowwhat to do because we were not
afraid of them.
And we went.
We got in our cars.
I went back home with Tony.
(27:15):
He broke down crying.
I said they're gonna drop thecharges.
Just wait, that's what the guysaid they're gonna drop the
charges.
And sure enough they droppedthe charges on our two people
that we got out.
But I kept going back to praying.
Okay, god, you said you love me, all right.
(27:37):
You said when do you want that?
You know, I've tried to go tochurch and I can't find anywhere
to go.
You tell me, where do you, ifyou want a church, started, not
a gay church, but a Christianchurch that's open to everybody,
and that means everybody.
Just let me know when.
(27:58):
And the still, the small voicesaid now, and with that took out
a maddening advocate here atReverend Troy Perry.
The advocate was the large gaynewspaper at that time, the only
one, and I took it out of mad.
Here at Reverend Troy Perrygave me a address in Huntington
Park.
12 people came two persons ofcolor, a heterosexual couple.
(28:23):
You know, I looked back at itand I think it was the view of
things to come for a MCC.
All those gay males that werethere too.
I am so thankful to God and theservice was incredible.
I called a funeral home and saidwell, you loan me 15 chairs for
(28:45):
the first service of our churchwe're having.
Oh, yes, we would be happy to,and they did.
Then I had a pastor friend whoowned me loaned me the 15 choir
hymnals you know the hymns.
The thing out of Then straightman at work who was a carpenter
(29:06):
for the store, he made the crossand the top to go up behind my
preaching area and in front ofmy preaching area was our coffee
table, which served as ourfirst communion, and an ash tray
, and my boss, who was gay, atin his lover, gave me a cup that
(29:27):
I used as a chalice for thefirst service.
And it was very, veryinteresting.
Four years ago the Smithsonianasked me for a collection that
they wanted to put in theircollection for gay folk and I
was able to put together thecollection of things like the
(29:50):
Book of Common Prayer that I usein all my marriages and all my
funerals and throughout MC'shistory.
They got that.
They got my vestments.
They received a hymn book thatwent through the fire.
We had another hymn book afterthat with inclusive language.
(30:13):
I had other things that weregiven in the day as for a large
collection and they received itI would have never thought, when
I opened the doors of thechurch to those 12 people, that
the Smithsonian, the Museum ofAmerican History, would call me
one day and say the thing y'alldid was historical and we want
(30:35):
to make sure that we have themhere in the museum.
So I am very thankful when Ilook back.
Most of the people in fact allof the people except me, as far
as I know is not alive of the LAgroup, that where we started
the church here first.
(30:55):
They are deceased.
But we went through everythingtogether and today, how proud I
am.
I was just.
I'd received an email from oneof our churches in Brazil I
don't read Portuguese, but thankGod for translators anymore and
(31:17):
they were sending us sayingwe're dedicating a room to you,
reverend Perry, and that's wherewe feed people who are hungry.
So it's the Troy Perry FoodPantry Memorial, and so I was
very touched by that.
Brad Shreve (31:34):
And is there something surreal about that,
though, there?
Troy Perry (31:37):
is People, don't you know?
You gotta go through it, Iguess, till it's the way it is.
But it is surreal.
When I'm invited to the WhiteHouse, I've been invited by
three American presidents to theWhite.
Brad Shreve (31:51):
House.
You've been there five times.
Three presidents, that'scorrect.
Troy Perry (31:56):
And I stop and I look at it and I just shake my
head of when I leave.
I'm very.
What thrills me is they invitedPhilip the last time.
The other two were beforePhilip, and Philip is my partner
of 38 years, Philip de Blic.
(32:16):
We talk, he and I both talkabout it how unreal it seems
some days.
Today, we are members of theWorld Council of Churches and we
go to the World Council ofChurches every four years and we
celebrate with them and we meetmore people from other cultures
(32:38):
that have heard about us andknow about us.
They you know, they havedifferent historians who've
interviewed me said Troy, you'reone of those church groups.
Everybody knows who you areBecause quote you're the gay
church and we have churches allover the world.
We have doctors who go toplaces like Uganda and we pay to
(33:03):
have children's medicine forchildren and shot for children,
and we have our own doc.
Go into those cultures and doclinics for children, for HIV,
for coronavirus, you name it.
We do it.
We call it the metropolitanclinics.
(33:28):
We've learned how to work insome countries and I continue to
hope and pray that God cancontinue to use me.
Now, this coming year, Philipand I are going to do some of
this the last thing on my bucketlist that I've wanted to do,
and it's not churchy I've beento a general audience for this
(33:52):
holiness to Pope, wrote them andasked them could I be in a
general audience.
They invited me and sent theinvitations.
I'm one of the only 100Protestants who are invited to
protest in with this holiness.
In South Carolina, when PopeJohn Paul II was the Pope and
(34:18):
his assistant became the nextPope of this book.
So it was very interesting andI continue to do things.
The thing I want to do is Ijust discovered that there is a
cruise that Philip and I aregoing to take.
We like the cruise for 54 daysthat takes us down the Pacific
(34:46):
side of the Americas toAntarctica.
I have been on every continentexcept Antarctica and this
cruise will let me get toAntarctica.
(35:06):
Then I'll come back up the otherside of the Americas and end
the cruise, leaving in LA,ending it in Port Lauderdale,
Florida.
Brad Shreve (35:18):
That sounds like an incredible trip.
I want to speak to something.
In 1970, the year afterStonewall, you co-founded
Christopher Street West and weknow today as the first Pride
Parade in Los Angeles.
I'm used to parades as they aretoday.
It's a carnival field.
Back in 2008, I joinedthousands and marched along the
(35:39):
beach when Prop 8 passed.
It was a much different feeling.
We were angry, we were beyondangry, but it was so powerful.
It was a sense of unity andbelonging.
I have not felt sense, can Itell you something.
Troy Perry (35:54):
I really believe, brad, with all of my heart that
young people have heard that wenow have two wonderful Pride
parades here in LA.
I can tell you one of thoseparades are already changing.
Oh, yes, they've got the floatsin them, but they're shouting
(36:14):
from the floats.
They've got all kinds of peoplewho are with us.
I loved looking down and seeingthe Assistic District Attorney
of Los Angeles Association Goodpoint, I love it, thank God,
here I'm looking at this andthey're straights and gays.
(36:38):
A few years ago, phillip and Iinvited a heterosexual couple
who's a friend of ours One was apolice officer, she is an
attorney or husband's a memberof the Ventura Bottom Squad and
they were pro-gay.
I got to know the family really, really well.
I was being honored by ourPride committee here and I
(37:03):
invited them to go with mebecause I wanted to use them as
props.
To all the folks out there whosay we can't win, I'm saying
these are the people we want towin with.
We want to meet heterosexualNext year.
We want to invite ourheterosexual friends and don't
(37:24):
invite a homosexual.
Invite your heterosexualfriends.
I've always been one of thosebelievers.
I said early on that if we allcame out of the closet.
If we'd all come out to ourmothers and fathers, that's
three right there.
If you then came out to yourbrothers and sisters, for me
(37:45):
that would be five more.
And then when they starttelling their friends which
they're going to, how, everybodylaughed.
I said thousands of people aregoing to know very quickly that
we're gay.
And that's exactly whathappened.
I don't mean that I was thefirst person, maybe to say that,
(38:05):
but that all kinds of peoplestarted joining in.
The next thing for me was when Istarted having demonstrations
and I said I had demonstrationsbefore.
We had Christopher Street, westpray.
My first demonstration wasbased on a firing of a young man
(38:26):
in San Francisco and theycalled me and said a young man
has been fired here, the companyheadquarters in Los Angeles.
Would you, as we demonstrate uphere, would y'all demonstrate
down there?
And I may retalk to Morris Kite, others of our early little
group and I said they wonder whoto demonstrate.
(38:48):
I'm going to, we all do it.
And they said yeah, and soimmediately we held a
demonstration and at thatdemonstration we ended up three
days.
First day, people would comeand stand and stare at us.
I mean Brad there wasn't nobodyapplauding, Nobody was saying a
(39:12):
word, it was just dead silence.
The next day, we all at oncestarted our you know shouts.
If you're proud and you're gay,you know, say it.
You know what I mean.
If you're proud and you're gay,say it you know, and people
would say right back to us, youknow.
(39:33):
Then the third day they starteddropping bags of water out of
the top of the building tryingto wet us, and we never wore wet
, but other business people woreit.
Oh my God.
But who went running thebuilding became our allies very
quickly After it happened.
But we didn't go away.
(39:54):
We waited for the next eventAfter that.
Now we're going to wait for thestate theme ship company give
them an opportunity to talk backto them up there.
And so after that we were backagain making sure that we said
if they come for us or we needto go to them, we will go to
(40:15):
them.
We're not going to wait forthem to come.
This morning and I said today,this demonstration that we're
having is one of the state, theCalifornia State Building, and
we're going to ask that theCalifornia State move the law
that's on the books that make uscriminals, and we wanted the
(40:36):
anti-ecidemy laws off the book.
I told our church group you'renot going to get hurt, just come
and march with me.
Well, my God, we had a crowd ofabout 250 people who showed up
and they marched with me fromall over the street where the
first Catholic church is at tothe states pardon me to the
(41:00):
California State Building.
And we got up and there aremovies of that demonstration
where I'm talking and we weredetermined we were going to.
Well, everybody went back andtell them.
Guess what?
We didn't get hurt.
Our next demonstration.
I said we need anotherdemonstration.
(41:21):
This demonstration is againstthe police department.
We're going to march on theHollywood police department.
You know what?
A thousand people showed up atHollywood High School.
And, my lord, here we are thereand the police.
All at once his policemotorcyclist rode his motorcycle
up on the the the pardon mehigh school on and he said who's
(41:45):
in charge here?
And I said to him you knowwho's in charge here.
What do you want?
And he said there's a bunch ofMarines around on the Boulevard
just waiting for this group.
I said oh groovy, we've got menwho are into Marines, so
they're going to love it.
I just, I used my voice, I justwould not let them use that
(42:07):
with me.
And well, and of course, by thetime we marched and we got
around there, there were no moreMarines on Hollywood Boulevard.
They were gone.
Well, you scared them away,that's it.
I told the crowd that ifthere's a thousand, I mean
there's a bunch of Marinesaround there waiting.
(42:27):
Don't worry, they'll leave theminute they see us.
This is too big for a crowd.
They're not going to be in afistfight with us.
Brad Shreve (42:33):
Well, I would think , when the word got out that a
thousand Marines were waitingfor you, your crowd would have
doubled, and that right, you gotit.
Troy Perry (42:40):
You got it.
It was going to doubleeverything.
And you know what?
The police were scared of us.
And, my God, I told everybodybefore we get there I don't want
to hear any sound, no soundexcept the bottom of our shoes
on the ground as we march infront of the police station,
because we had already found outthey had guns on top of the
(43:02):
police station.
I mean, you know, I couldn'tbelieve it.
And we got around there, sureenough, standing with their
rifles up on top of the policestation, and we held our
demonstration.
And when we got through, Imarched them back up to where we
had started the demonstrationand told everybody thank you.
(43:26):
And the next thing we held wasChristopher Street West.
Brad Shreve (43:32):
What is something everyone can do right now to
make a difference?
Troy Perry (43:39):
What everybody can do right now and make a
difference in is join anorganization that fights with
hope for your freedom If that'swhat they want.
Brad Shreve (43:52):
they got to get their boots on the ground.
Troy Perry (43:56):
It's really the truth, brad.
If I'm 83, I have mobilityproblems, I'm not well, I know
that probably my life isn't long, and yet I tell young people
all the time it's not about me,it's about all of you.
(44:16):
What are you going to do next?
Not Troy Perry, I've done mypart.
When I meet God, I hope I hearGod say well done, my good and
faithful servant.
Brad Shreve (44:30):
And that I'm welcome.
There's a line in oh God whichis one of my favorite movies
because Burns played my conceptof God and I'm paraphrasing here
.
But John Denver said somethinglike if you got, why do we have
all the trouble in the world?
Why don't you do somethingabout it?
And God said I did do somethingabout it.
I gave you each other.
Why aren't you doing somethingabout?
Troy Perry (44:51):
it.
Yeah, and it's really the truth.
We can never not forget that.
That's the thing.
But when you join something,also don't let people get away
with things Just think becauseI've joined, whatever it is,
(45:11):
that's going to make adifference.
No, you got to.
If you hear somebody saysomething that is saying
something and your, your group,is not there, you need to learn,
if they've said it to a group,how to answer back.
No, that's not true.
Brad Shreve (45:28):
Thank you so much for being my guest.
It's an honor to see you againAgain.
I appreciate everything you'vedone over the years.
You've really made a differenceand not enough people know how
much work you've done.
Troy Perry (45:39):
Well, I so much appreciate the work you do.
Because of your work and thispodcast, it will help others to
see.
I hope that we can all makethis together.
Brad Shreve (45:51):
I hope so too.
Troy Perry (45:52):
Thank you, Brad.
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