June 28, 2024 • 56 mins
Can a film change the course of LGBTQ+ cinema forever? Join a celebration of Pride Month with a deep dive into the landmark film "The Boys in the Band." Brad Shreve and film historian Tony Maietta guide you through a spirited discussion on this pivotal work. Brad courageously shares his initial reservations about the film and why he decided to give it a second look, while Tony emphasizes the importance of acknowledging both its triumphs and shortcomings.
In addition, Brad and Tony discuss the unique challenges the actors and honor the courage it took for them to take on these roles in the mid-60s and reflect on the tragic toll of the AIDS crisis on the cast. This episode not only celebrates the film's cultural legacy but also pays tribute to the bravery and resilience of those who brought it to life.
This episode is from the Going Hollywood Podcast.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Brad Shreve (00:00):
This is Queer, we Are Hi.
This is Brad.
And what better movie todiscuss during Pride Month than
the celebrated 1970s the Boys inthe Band.
Some love it, some hate it, andwe discussed both sides, but it
(00:24):
cannot be argued.
It was groundbreaking.
I haven't been around with newepisodes because I've been tied
up on jury duty for anexhaustive murder trial.
Court has been in session forone month and we still haven't
begun deliberations.
This is the first time I'veever done this.
Given the trial, which has mademe even later publishing my
next novel, I've decided to putthe show on summer hiatus rather
(00:46):
than trying to get somethingout to you as time allows.
I have great guests lined upfor when Queer Re-Art returns,
including Oscar winners, expertson the bear community, lesbian
history and much more.
I am excited and I hate that Ihad to put them off.
Since I've had to rescheduleguests, I'm providing another
(01:07):
episode of the Going Hollywoodpodcast, where I discuss movies
and television with filmhistorian Tony Maeda.
We converse about the positiveand negative viewpoints of the
boys in the band as well as takeyou behind the scenes.
If you'd like to check out theGoing Hollywood podcast and I
hope you do there's a link inthe show notes.
Tony Maietta (02:30):
Hello, I'm film historian Tony Maietta.
Brad Shreve (02:33):
And I'm Brad Shreve , who's just a guy who likes
movies.
Tony Maietta (02:36):
We discuss movies and television from Hollywood's
golden age.
We go behind the scenes andshare our opinions too.
And, of course, being theaverage guy, my opinions are the
ones that matter, as does yourself-delusion.
Welcome to Going Hollywood,Brad.
(03:00):
Before we start, because Inever see you except when we're
recording these podcasts, and Iwanted to invite you to this
birthday party that I'm going to.
I was wondering if you'd liketo go with me.
You know it's going to be areally tight group about nine
guys.
It's just a very smallget-together and these guys are
a lot of fun.
They can be a lot of fun, andit's at this fabulous apartment
with this huge terrace thatoverlooks the city.
(03:22):
So, would you like to go with me?
Brad Shreve (03:23):
You know, tony, I get such a rare opportunity to
get into the city now that Ilive outside, that I would love
to come to one of your parties.
Tony Maietta (03:30):
Oh good.
Well, it's not my party, it'sfor a friend of mine.
It's his 32nd birthday.
Oh, he's old.
It'll be a lot of fun.
But you know, I should probablymention, you know, that.
Just a little caveat there isthe slightest potential for
humiliation, emotional scarringand devastation, but there'll be
(03:50):
cake.
Brad Shreve (03:52):
Well, hey, cake's all that matters.
I can deal with the rest of it.
Tony Maietta (03:55):
Happy Pride, everybody.
Happy Pride.
It's boys in the band.
Did we give it away?
Did we give it away too muchthere?
Nothing to sing.
Brad Shreve (04:04):
You know, with this podcast being relatively new,
tony and I were making all kindsof plans to you know what
episodes do we want to do?
When we brainstormed andfinally Tony's like wait a
minute, it's Pride Month, weneed to do a Pride Month episode
, and so we have just enoughtime to get this one in.
What a good one to choose.
Tony Maietta (04:40):
Well, I think we kind of have to, and I was also
saying to Brad too you know it'skind of redundant that we're
doing a Pride episode because somany of our episodes have gay
references, but I feel it wasreally important that we do this
.
Landmark film's a very, very.
No matter how you feel about it, good or bad there's no denying
it's a landmark and it needs tobe discussed, I think.
Brad Shreve (04:52):
And I have a couple of things to say about it.
I was, I had mixed emotionswhen you said it.
I immediately said, oh God, wehave to do it.
It's a classic Right.
But if you remember, I saidwell, what were you talking?
I assumed you were talkingabout the 1970 film, but I
didn't want to 100% assume that.
I didn't want to watch thewrong thing.
So I asked you are we talkingabout the 70 film, the Netflix
2020 film, or are we doing both?
And you were like well, I onlyhad my head in 1970.
(05:15):
I said that's fine.
So I had mixed feelings when youdecided that this would be a
good idea, tony.
And the reason is I hate thismovie.
I've always hated this movie.
It's disturbing.
There's a lot about it I hate.
So I said, when I sit down thistime, I'm going to go with an
open mind and put things in adifferent perspective.
So I did that and later I willshare with you if my feelings
(05:38):
about this movie have changed.
Okay, good, Good.
But like any movie, right now Ican tell you there are big
pluses and big minuses, like anyfilm, and we can certainly get
into those along the way.
Tony Maietta (05:48):
Yeah, you know, I think this movie is important to
do, just for its landmark value.
You know, there's no gettingaround it, whether you love it
or whether you hate it, it wasthe first time that gay
characters were seen asquote-unquote normal people.
Now I know there's people whoare going to give me an argument
about what normal is, butanyway, that weren't aberrants
(06:11):
of nature, that gay people werejust like everybody else.
It was the first time in amainstream film.
Obviously, there had been gaycharacters in films and they
usually were murderers or weremurdered.
You know Sebastian Venablegetting eaten literally by a
group of roving tree dirchins.
So what's important about theBoys in the Band is that it was
(06:33):
the first and, yeah, love it,hate it.
It has that distinction.
So I think that's why it'simportant for us to talk about.
I have mixed feelings about thisfilm as well, you know.
It's funny because I think Iwas thinking about when was the
first time I saw Boys in theBand and, regardless of what
anyone might think out there, Idid not see it in the theater in
1970.
The first time I saw it, I know, was on VHS.
(06:57):
It had been released on VHS,which was a horrible quality
Horrible, horrible, but I had tosee it because I heard so much
about it.
But I think I saw Cruisingfirst.
Okay, william Friedkin, for asupposedly straight man, and he
was married four times, so I'massuming he was straight.
He directed the two mostcontroversial films in gay
(07:19):
cinema history the Boys in theBand and then, 10 years later,
cruising.
Brad Shreve (07:25):
Oh, someday we'll do Cruising, but I'll have to
get my stomach ready for that.
Tony Maietta (07:29):
I think I saw Cruising first, so Boys in the
Band wasn't that scarring to mebecause nobody was being knifed
to death in Boys in the Band.
You know what I mean.
So coming to Boys in the Bandafter seeing Cruising was like a
breath of fresh air for mepersonally.
Boys in the Band after seeingCruising, it was like a breath
of fresh air.
Brad Shreve (07:45):
for me personally, queer people were protesting,
cruising.
I know people that tell me theywere out there with their
placards.
Tony Maietta (07:51):
Well, queer people were protesting.
Boys in the Band.
Brad Shreve (07:53):
Well, yeah, but Cruising was a flashback to
basically gay men are allpsychopaths.
Tony Maietta (08:00):
Yeah, it's a hard film to watch.
Maybe we can do it sometimeno-transcript.
Brad Shreve (08:34):
I'm going to get to that later but I'm going to
give my description at first.
Boys in the Band is a 1970 filmbased on a 1968 play by Matt
Crowley and, to put this inperspective, the play came out
the year before Stonewall andtherefore the movie came out and
I assume was being filmedduring the time of Stonewall
Interesting story there.
So this is a pretty amazingtime period.
Tony Maietta (08:54):
Yes, you know what Mark Crowley said.
The reason he wasn't atStonewall although I don't think
he would frequent Stonewall, heprobably went more for the
townhouse.
Knowing Mark Crowley wentStonewall, he probably would
have been.
He probably went more for thetownhouse, knowing Mark Crowley.
They were filming the boys inthe band, you know, 20 blocks up
from Stonewall, uh, when thewriting began.
So that's, that's kind of tellsyou what was going on.
So the boys in the band beganas one movie and ended as
(09:17):
something very different.
Brad Shreve (09:18):
And you mentioned that you think he'd hang out at
the townhouse.
I'm sure you know he did inreal life.
Tony Maietta (09:30):
Did he really?
Brad Shreve (09:30):
That was a shot in the dark.
Yes, the apartment was based onan actress and I'll have to
find her name Tammy Grimes.
Tammy Grimes the exterior wasactually filmed at her apartment
.
Right, the daytime Right.
But they could not get thecameras inside her apartment.
It was too small.
So they built a set that theysay matched it.
So pretty, damn nice apartment.
I'll tell you that.
Tony Maietta (09:46):
Gorgeous apartments on the Upper East
Side.
Brad Shreve (09:48):
Nobody could afford that in New York today.
Tony Maietta (09:50):
No, certainly not.
So what is this movie about?
Brad Shreve (09:53):
Okay.
So the movie is about abirthday party and it is hosted
by Michael, and Michael is a forlack of a better word I keep
seeing recovering alcoholic.
He doesn't usually really usethat term.
He pretty much just says Istopped drinking, but he's an
alcoholic.
You definitely learned that.
He also is Catholic and seemsto be struggling there.
And he is hosting this partyfor his friend, harold.
(10:16):
And I don't know what Harolddoes for a living.
I don't think he's ever told.
But Harold describes himself asan ugly, pockmarked Jew fairy.
Michael and all his friends areall stereotypes and I don't see
that as a negative because I'mfirmly of the belief that
stereotypes do exist for areason and every one of these
individuals is a stereotype.
But I can also say I know everyone of these individuals.
Tony Maietta (10:37):
Yeah, that's true.
Well, that's very true.
Brad Shreve (10:40):
Yeah, I know every one of them.
Michael is really strugglingwith his identity.
Though you would never know itat the beginning, he seems the
most stable.
Harold is very self-loathing,bitter in his own way.
Emery is super flamboyant, thedecorator.
Well they are archetypes.
Yes.
Tony Maietta (10:56):
Now I hear what you're saying.
They are archetypes.
But I think it's important topoint out, and Mark Crowley has
said this, and I wanted to get alittle bit in the background of
and Mark Crowley has said thisand I wanted to get a little bit
in the background of I'm notgonna talk a lot about the play,
but it's important becausebasically, what we're seeing
when we see the film the Boys inthe Band is the play, is the
film version of the play,because it has the exact same
cast, almost all of the samedialogue.
So I want to talk about that.
(11:17):
But what Mark Crowley?
When he would get criticizedfor saying it was a bad
representation of gay culture,he's like I'm not trying to
represent gay culture, these aremy friends.
All of these characters werebased on real people that Mark
Crowley knew.
Now, harold, he was an iceskater.
I don't think he's still iceskating, but, as you said, you
didn't know what he did.
(11:37):
Harold was an ice skater.
He was based on a very goodfriend of Mark Crowley's.
Basically, what happened is letme go ahead and give a little
background about.
Can I go ahead and give alittle bit of background about
how the boys in the band cameabout and about Mark Crowley.
Sure, let's go ahead and dothat.
So, anyway, mark Crowley grew upin the South and longed to be a
(12:01):
playwright.
He moved to New York when he wasyoung and he somehow found
himself being a PA on the set ofSplendor in the Grass and being
a PA primarily for Natalie Wood, and he and Natalie Wood became
very close friends and whenSplendor in the Grass was over,
natalie Wood asked him to comeback to Los Angeles with her and
(12:23):
be her assistant.
So he became Natalie Wood'sassistant and he was very much
in the Hollywood scene of the60s, which was a fabulous,
fabulous time to be in Hollywood, I think, and he knew all these
people and he actually one ofthe things that she said if he
came to Hollywood with her, shewould give him a meeting with
her agent at William Morris sohe could get some work writing.
(12:46):
And he actually wrote somescreenplays, one of which was
purchased by 20th Century Fox tostar Natalie Wood, and Natalie
Wood was going to play twins,one of the twins being a lesbian
, which would have beenincredible, but 20th Century Fox
lost their nerve and it neverhappened.
Brad Shreve (13:04):
It was called.
Tony Maietta (13:05):
Cassandra at the wedding.
Yeah, so Mark Crowley was kindof like a dilettante.
He was in the room where ithappened, he was with all these
famous people, all these thingswere happening around him, yet
he was not doing anything and hebegan to get very depressed and
he began to drink.
Well, he had this friend, thisvery good friend, named Howard
Jeffries, who was a dancer andworked on all the big musicals
(13:27):
in the 60s.
He was in Funny Girl, he wasthe groom in the bridal scene,
he was in Hello Dolly.
He was a very, veryaccomplished dancer and he took
Mart to this birthday party thatwas full of well, not full of
gay men, a small birthday partyof about a dozen gay men.
And that was the first lightbulb that went off in Mark
(13:50):
Crowley's mind about what hecould possibly write.
That spoke to him as a gay man.
And he said that he was lyingin bed and he was very depressed
and he just started writinglines, one after the other,
after the other, and he just didthis for days and days and days
until he finally had a playthat was based on the concept of
(14:12):
a birthday party.
It's Harold, who he based on hisfriend Howard Jeffries.
Harold's 32nd birthday, all ofthese men come together to wish
him a happy birthday and, ofcourse, the night it turns into
a long day's journey into night.
It's, it's just how it happens,how it degenerates.
(14:32):
But here's what I have aproblem with, and maybe you
don't agree with this.
I have been to parties likethis.
You know, maybe they didn'tdegenerate to the point that
they degenerate to in in theboys in the band, but I
certainly there, certainly was.
It was something in the airthat I knew this was turning
quickly.
I got to get out of here.
So that's why, when people sayit's stereotypical, I don't know
(14:54):
that that's necessarily true orthat's necessarily a bad thing,
because I think these peopleexist.
Brad Shreve (15:00):
When I say it's stereotypical, I meant the
characters are stereotypes, okay.
Tony Maietta (15:05):
And yeah.
Brad Shreve (15:05):
I guess you could say the situation is
stereotypical, but I don't knowif I thought that at first.
The self-loathing is certainlyheavy.
Yes, here's my challenge withthis.
So let me go back into thedescription that I've seen
online, and this is where I havea challenge with this film.
I'm reading I don't rememberwhere the source was, but it's
almost identical to everythingelse.
(15:26):
I've seen A witty, perceptiveand devastating look at the
personal agendas and suppressedrevelations swirling among a
group of gay men in Manhattan.
Harold is celebrating abirthday and his friend, michael
has drafted some other friendsto help commemorate the event.
Here's where I have thechallenge.
As the evening progresses, thealcohol flows, the knives come
out and Michaels demand that thegroup participate in devious
(15:48):
telephone games, unleasheddormant and unspoken emotions.
If that was this movie, I wouldlike it better.
That did not describe thismovie.
Those tensions and thoseantagonisms were right from the
very beginning.
They got worse as later goes on.
Originally I didn't like thisfilm because there was so much
self-loathing.
And then I looked at my ownlife and I'm like God.
(16:09):
I had self-loathing for a lotof years.
I relate to these people.
Yeah, pretty common.
But you know this is all beforemy time, but I've talked to guys
in this era and they said therewere two things about it.
One, it was scary because younever knew who to trust.
Yes, but despite all that anddespite the pain and the
suffering, when they gottogether it was very painful but
(16:29):
there's also a lot of joy, yeah, and they really look on that
fondly and I didn't see any ofthat in this movie Really.
And what I would have liked toseen better, more is in the
beginning.
Maybe it would have been longeror there.
Probably.
I can think of a few thingsthat could have been taken out.
Nothing major.
I would have liked to have seenmore of that joy and the
campiness, because I think thecamp was much more over the top
(16:50):
then Because they had to expressthemselves somehow.
You don't think Emery was campy.
Tony Maietta (16:55):
Well, I Connie Casserole.
Oh Mary, don't ask.
Brad Shreve (17:00):
No, no, I would like to have seen more of that
amongst the whole group.
And they did a little bit of it.
They did a little dancing, theydid the dance of Fire Island,
reading each other and that kindof thing.
To me it went downhill way toofast and it really started out
with Michael and is it Donald?
Yes, michael and Donald arefriends, but there's that
antagonism between them rightfrom the beginning.
(17:21):
So I wish it was a little morefun in the beginning and then
pull this into the pain.
Tony Maietta (17:28):
Well, see, I find it so funny it's.
You know, it's no accident.
The two inspirations that MarkCrowley looks to or mentioned as
his inspirations for this, forthe play and for the film were
who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?
Duh, I mean, it is the gay.
Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?
If that's not redundant.
I mean, the dialogue is thatdense and cutting and it can
(17:55):
turn on a dime from outrageouscomedy to tragedy.
And that's Virginia Woolf andthat's the boys in the band.
It's actually one of two playsthat were put out on recording.
I remember because I had bothof them.
They were actually made audiorecordings on albums of Virginia
Woolf and Boys in the Band andit makes sense because they're
like bookends.
(18:16):
He also looked at Rope, theAlfred Hitchcock film.
There's a play that the AlfredHitchcock film was based on
because it takes place in realtime, and the Boys and the Band
also takes place in real timeand if you've seen, the movie
Rope.
Brad Shreve (18:28):
The play is much more blatant.
It's a gay couple.
It's not hinted at.
Tony Maietta (18:33):
So what I think is I find it hysterically funny in
the beginning, because I don'tknow these lines.
They're so bright, they're sosharp no-transcript.
Brad Shreve (19:37):
just give us a little more of that good time.
I didn't laugh a lot throughthis, and I never have.
I was reading the review of the2018 Broadway, you know cause.
It was originally off Broadwayand then 2018, they brought it
on Broadway and I was readingthe review of that Right.
Tony Maietta (19:52):
Finally finally made it to broad.
It finally made it to Broadway.
Brad Shreve (19:55):
Yes, it did, and they said the audience was
saying the lines, the funnylines before they were.
They were being spoken and werelaughing and I'm like there are
some great funny lines in there, but to me they were so
overshadowed by the pain andmaybe that's the part I'm
missing, that you have that joyin the midst of pain and that is
part more what I got from itlater on.
Tony Maietta (20:15):
Well, here's the thing.
I mean.
This play was written when wecould still be arrested.
Obviously, it was beforeStonewall.
What was Stonewall?
Stonewall was the police comingin and raiding a bar to arrest
people.
So this play was written in atime.
Now here's the thing, though Inthe mid-60s, the culture was
tearing, and what happens whenthings start to tear is other
(20:37):
things start to seep in.
So, as the culture is tearingin the mid-60s because of
Vietnam, because of civil rightsprotests, suddenly there's a
(20:58):
space opening up for these otherthings to happen, such as gay
culture coming forward.
So when the play was made, itwas a very different time.
It was still very oppressive.
These men could find a familywith each other.
No matter how dysfunctional youmay think it may be, it was
still a family.
You know, at the end of theplay, after Harold absolutely
decimates Michael with his wordsand Michael is a heap he's not
quite a heap, but he's going tobe a heap he turns to him and he
(21:19):
says call you tomorrow Now,think about okay yeah, that's a
pretty dysfunctional friendship,okay, but there's that sense of
family there, that sense oflove there that people have with
people.
They're close.
That my own internalizedstruggles with my sexuality.
I remember that pain, thatself-loathing, that hatred.
(21:48):
These people are personifyingthat.
Brad Shreve (21:50):
Oh yeah.
Tony Maietta (21:51):
And it existed.
It's a historic fact.
Still exists, still exists.
Brad Shreve (21:56):
And I agree, that's where I did connect is when I
really thought wait a minute,you hated yourself just as much
as these guys did.
But again, what you describedis not all that I saw.
Tony Maietta (22:10):
I wanted to see more of that in the film.
Brad Shreve (22:11):
As I said, I'm only going this from hearsay, from
what men of that era have toldme is the joy and the love of
their adopted family or theirchosen family, and I would have
liked to seen a little.
But they also talked about thepain and the fear and everything
else, and I would have liked toseen just a little more of that
chosen family love before thatpain that obviously still did
exist as well came in.
That's all I'm saying, becauseit would have endeared me a
(22:33):
little bit more to each of thecharacters.
I get what you're saying.
I wanted to care just a littlebit more.
The characters are hard to like.
Tony Maietta (22:39):
Like people, they're very complex characters.
Michael, the character ofMichael, who's played by Kenneth
Nelson, was sort of kind ofbased on, you know, mark Crowley
based him kind of on himself.
Mark Crowley based him kind ofon himself.
Mark Crowley had issues withdrinking.
He became sober later in hislife and he just God bless him
he died.
He finally won the Tony Awardfor the revival for Best Revival
(23:02):
of a Play of the Boys in theBand and he died a little bit
later.
He had a heart attack, which issad because he was a very, very
funny, wonderful guy.
So Michael is based on MarkCrowley at that time.
As I said, harold is based onhis friend Howard Jeffries, and
there are other.
Donald was based on anotherdear friend.
Donald was played by FrederickHolmes, who was the Matt Bomer
(23:24):
character in the revival andanother good friend of his.
So these were all friends ofhis and he was showing the
facets of all of his friends.
I think what I want to say aboutthis and the historical
importance of both the play andthe film.
This play first of all had avery I don't want to go into all
the machinations of how it goton stage.
(23:46):
It was a workshop that EdwardAlbee produced from the money he
was making from who's Afraid ofVirginia Wolf, because he
didn't want to give to thegovernment.
So he created this workshop andit was for five nights.
And the first night of the showof the play, the house was half
full this was in 1968.
And the second night, the nextmorning after the first night,
(24:09):
there was a line down the blockof about 500 people waiting to
see this play.
So this play was huge, playedfive performances in the
workshop and then it moveduptown to, I think, 55th Street
and played for 1,001performances.
So this play was big and whenthe movie companies came to Mark
(24:30):
Crowley saying that they wantedto buy it and make a film of it
, because that was happening allthe brave actors who literally
put their careers on the line toplay these parts Lawrence
(24:59):
Luckinbill, who plays Hank, theone who was married but is
bisexual and struggling withsexuality with Harry said that
they all lost their agentsbecause their agents all told
them don't do this play.
And they're like we're going todo this play.
It's a brilliant play, soanyway, he wanted to reward them
.
Brad Shreve (25:17):
I saw an interview.
He said his wife at the time,robin Strasser.
She said do you want to reallydo this?
And he said I do.
And she said, okay, there goesyour career.
Yeah, she supported him, butit's just like okay there goes
your career, absolutely,absolutely.
Tony Maietta (25:29):
That was the thing you know.
We talked a little bit aboutwhen I was acting and how I had
to be.
I had to play it straight.
I don't know how successful Iwas, but I mean that's so.
Can you imagine in the 60s,when we were still we could
still be arrested?
It wasn't good.
Yeah, so he.
But so Mark Crow studio CinemaCenter Films, and the only thing
(25:56):
that happened was they had toget a new director.
They couldn't have Robert Moorebecause the studio said we
can't have.
Robert Moore was the originaldirector of the play and Robert
Moore was the actor director whoplayed Phyllis's brother on the
Mary Tyler Moore Show the onewho's gay, by the way, ps, cute
little aside.
So William Friedkin came in.
He had just directed theBirthday Party and he was one of
(26:17):
these.
You know, one of the youngTurks coming to Hollywood in the
early 70s, like Alan Pakula andMartin Scorsese, who
revolutionized film business,and he used.
These actors were able tocreate the roles they created on
stage in film for posterity.
Now here's.
The sad thing is that most ofthem never hit the same heights
(26:41):
again.
Is it because of the charactersthey played?
Is it because of this film?
Did this film taint it?
I don't know.
They all worked after this filmand Lawrence Luckinbill had a
very illustrious career.
He just wrote his memoir, Ithink other than Robert
Letourneau who played Cowboy.
Brad Shreve (26:58):
The others did okay , they did okay, but they felt
he just kind of vanished after74.
Tony Maietta (27:03):
Yeah Well, they felt very confined.
They felt very stereotyped, inparticular Cliff Gorman, who
plays Emery probably the bravestof them all.
And Cliff Gorman washeterosexual, he was not gay.
Cliff Gorman went on to playLenny Bruce.
He won a Tony Award for playingLenny Bruce in the play version
of Lenny, which was later madeby Dustin Hoffman as a film.
(27:25):
He was very angry about whatEmery did to his career, was
very angry about what Emery didto his career.
A lot of these actors RobertLetourneau was as well.
Robert Letourneau played Cowboy.
Mark Crowley saw him at a teadance on Fire Island and said to
Robert Moore, that's Cowboy.
He was a soap actor and he wasvery bitter about it, although I
(27:47):
don't know if he would have hadsuch a stellar career without
the boys in the band or not.
But a lot of these people youknow.
Leonard Frye was a great actor.
He did Fiddler on the Roof.
After this he was nominated foran Academy Award for that.
He was also a very good lookingguy.
He's not at all like Harold.
He's not like the uglypockmarked Jew fairy he plays in
this film.
It's a brilliant character, ifyou think of the newer version.
(28:16):
I him.
It's a brilliant character Ifyou think of the newer version.
I think Zach Quinto is veryhandsome and he looked like
Harold in the newer version.
So, yeah, exactly.
So these are two very goodlooking guys who definitely
changed their appearance to playthis part.
And Peter White was on All myChildren for like 30 years
playing Link.
I remember him from All myChildren as a kid, I'm like,
because the first time I saw theboys in the band I went that's
Link from all my children.
So, yes, they worked.
Kenneth Nelson moved to Londonand did work in London on London
(28:38):
stage for the rest of his lifeas well.
So they all worked, but theynever really they didn't really
hit the heights that this playpromised.
I guess is the great way to saythat.
Brad Shreve (28:49):
You mentioned Gorman, cliff Gorman being so
brave to play Emery, who was themost flamboyant of the bunch.
When I was reading the articlethat Cliff Gorman and his wife
took care of Robert Letourneauwhen he was dying of AIDS, I'm
like his wife, I'm like that hadto be a typo.
I'm like he was straight.
(29:12):
Oh my goodness, I couldn'tbelieve it.
Tony Maietta (29:13):
It's a little surprising, isn't it?
Speaking of stereotypes, youtalked about stereotypes.
I do have my issues with hisportrayal of Emery Cliff,
gorman's portrayal of Emily.
I mean you can draw a line.
First of all, you can draw aline from Emery all the way down
to Jack McFarlane.
Brad Shreve (29:30):
I mean hello.
Tony Maietta (29:31):
Same trajectory line, from Emery all the way
down to Jack McFarlane of Willand Grace.
I mean, hello, same trajectory,same character.
You can see the beginnings ofit.
I feel like and Friedkin hassaid this too.
William Friedkin said this hefeels like he should have toned
Cliff Gorman down a little bit.
They were all theatrical.
First of all, when WilliamFriedkin agreed to direct this,
he wanted three weeks ofrehearsal and they were all like
(29:53):
what We've been doing, thisshow for 1001 performances, we
do not need to rehearse.
But he had to rehearse them tobring them down for film.
Now they're still all verytheatrical.
I think that's another criticismthat people have of this film.
It's very theatricallypresented because it is based on
(30:13):
a play.
But there are ways to do it.
Virginia Woolf is a primeexample.
Virginia Woolf is an incrediblytheatrical play but a
wonderfully cinematic film.
I don't look at Virginia Woolf,the film, and think well, first
of all, elizabeth Taylor wasnot a theater actress, so there
you go right.
Now you have a theater actress,so there you go, right now you
have a film actress.
So maybe if they had gotten filmactors to do this it would be
(30:35):
different.
But yes, it's a very theatricalpresentation and they're all
just slightly bit too theatrical.
Same thing with Kenneth Nelson.
I think he's just a bit tootheatrical, needs to just dial
it down just a bit.
But then I don't know, maybethat's the essence of the play,
maybe it isn't.
Brad Shreve (31:00):
I agree with you.
I actually think it was.
I'm not going to say a mistake.
I didn't notice the difference.
I don't want to go back andforth between the new Netflix
version and this version, butI'm going to bring it up because
I didn't really notice thetheatricality of the original
movie until I watched theNetflix series.
And I'm not going to say theNetflix series was better,
because it's not, but there weresome.
When I was looking at thecasting choices in the different
characters, I thought some werebetter in 70s, some were better
in the newer one.
(31:21):
But one thing I noticed is Ifelt like the characters were
more real in the newer versionand then I realized it's because
these guys, the other guys areon stage and especially Gorman.
He was playing Exactly.
I felt like I was watchingsomebody play.
I was watching somebody, anactor.
I felt like I was watching anactor every time he was on.
I didn't buy him.
Tony Maietta (31:41):
You just hit the nail.
He was the character that Ifelt the least connected to.
You just hit the nail on thehead with that, which is what I
was going to say, that which isI was going to say.
You know, the interesting thingabout the Netflix is it was the
exact opposite problem.
You have TV and film actorsMatt Bomer, jim Parsons, zachary
Quintero who are TV and film,now having to play on stage.
Because I saw the Broadwayversion of the Netflix oh, did
(32:04):
you?
This was the.
I saw it in New York with thesame cast and they had the
reverse opposite, the reverseproblem that the original actors
had.
The original actors had tobring down their performances
and the ones on the Netflix hadto bring them up for the stage.
So it makes sense that whenyou're watching the Netflix one
that's their comfort zone yeah,they're all TV and film actors,
(32:26):
so they can do that.
It's the exact opposite withthe film version and I think
they all did a fantastic job.
By the way, I really don't,like I said, I have some
problems with Cliff Gorman, butthat's more of a directing thing
.
William Freed should have saidto him bring it down a little
bit, bring it down a little bit,but he didn't.
He wanted to capture thisoutrageous performance of Emery.
Brad Shreve (32:48):
Tony, I'm stopping our conversation real quick.
Tony Maietta (32:50):
Why of Emory, tony , I'm stopping our conversation
real quick.
Why?
Brad Shreve (32:53):
Why we're in the middle of a podcast, but this is
about the podcast and it's veryimportant.
Okay, listener, whatever appyou're listening on, whether
it's on the computer or on thephone, reach your finger or your
mouse over.
It usually says follow.
Some still say subscribe andclick that, and what's going to
happen when they do that, tony?
Tony Maietta (33:10):
They're going to get notified when a new episode
is available and they can listento us again.
You know you don't want to missthat.
No, can we get back to theepisode that we were recording?
Of course, please.
Of course, all right, thank you.
Don't forget to subscribe andfollow.
There you go.
Brad Shreve (33:27):
I have a question about Robin de Jesus, who played
Emery in the Netflix version.
I believe I've seen him inother things.
He is a flamboyant man, am Icorrect?
Yeah, well, I think he was inTick Tick Boom.
Okay, I know I saw Tick TickBoom not too long ago, but I
don't remember.
Tony Maietta (33:41):
The Jonathan Larson thing.
Brad Shreve (33:43):
Yeah, I know, I saw it because I really like Andrew
Garfield as an actor.
I believed him as Emery.
Tony Maietta (33:52):
I didn't feel like he was acting like Emery.
The other guy felt like he wasacting like him.
I've seen quite a fewproductions of this play and
Emery's always the tricky one.
Emery can really divide people.
You need a very, verytechnically skilled actor to
play Emery, otherwise it comesup, especially now because we've
had, you know all I said, theJack McFarlanes.
We have this idea.
He's such a stereotype now.
(34:12):
It's a very tricky part to playand I think Robin de Jesus did
an incredible job.
Yes, I agree.
I also love the fact that theymade him.
You know that he wasn't thiswhite gay guy anymore.
They gave him.
You know he's a man of colorand I loved that.
They did that with that, withthat show, with that particular
performance.
Brad Shreve (34:29):
And I think until somebody knows an Emory, they
will think Emory is a grossstereotype.
Yeah, but there are people likeEmory.
Oh, I know Emory.
Yeah, that's the thing.
Tony Maietta (34:40):
I know what's up with him.
So when people criticize thisplay about, oh, the stereotypes
in it, but they're real, thereare people who are like this,
and they're also full of drama.
Exactly, exactly.
So I have a real problem whenpeople say, oh my god they're so
stereotypical.
These people exist, every one ofthese people exist in my world,
yeah, and I said, and I havebeen to parties that could have
(35:01):
easily degenerated into a partyalmost as bad as this.
So I think those criticisms are.
They're all out there.
You know, there's some validityto some of them and not so much
to others.
That's the way I feel about it.
Brad Shreve (35:16):
So let's talk about Cowboy.
Tony Maietta (35:17):
Okay.
Brad Shreve (35:19):
Robert Letourneau.
I love his character.
I'm very sad for his character.
They are brutal.
It's a very sad character,isn't it?
Yes, he is, I don't know.
He's basically a hustler.
He was hired for $20 for thenight.
Tony Maietta (35:32):
No, he was not basically a hustler.
He's a hustler.
He's not basically a hustler.
He finds him on 42nd Street.
He's a hustler.
Brad Shreve (35:39):
He's a hustler, yes , and he's not the brightest one
that you've ever met.
So he's hired for $20 for thenight, which sounds like pretty
good money.
Back then he was a birthdaypresent from Emery to Harold,
the birthday boy.
He is very dense, sometimes alittle bit to the point of
absurdity, but that's okay.
He was still a fun character.
But the others are so brutal tohim, just so cruel and so
(36:03):
condescending they are, and it'dbe okay if it was a joke here
and there, but my God, they justdidn't let up.
Tony Maietta (36:10):
Well, there's a certain amount of jealousy there
.
Brad Shreve (36:11):
Well, there is.
That's exactly what I felt.
First of all, there was thejealousy, and there was also the
contempt that he didn't havethe culture that they had.
Tony Maietta (36:21):
So it was a little of both.
Well, I mean, that's such a gaything.
I mean that jealousy.
What does Harold say?
You know, this poor boy, histransitory beauty.
Beauty is so transitory, youknow, but you'd give up
everything for just a little bitof that transitory beauty,
wouldn't you, michael?
I mean, I just paraphrased thehell out of it, but that's
basically what—.
Brad Shreve (36:35):
It's so tragic what— he's saying.
His face is so tragic,referring to the fact that it's
going to become tragic.
Tony Maietta (36:40):
Yeah, what a tragedy this boy's face is.
Yeah, I mean.
But you know, I know lots ofgay men who talk that way.
Brad Shreve (36:46):
Who behave that?
Tony Maietta (36:47):
way.
You know what I mean.
There's a real jealousy.
It's the same thing.
It's you know what?
Doesn't Michael say that fagsare worse than women about
growing older?
And to them, growing older is30.
Oh, fags think their life'sover at 30.
And I'm sorry for dropping theF word, but you know that's what
they say in the play.
So I don't want to dance around,yeah, and you know, one thing
(37:26):
I'm glad is I'm glad that's nottrue as much anymore.
There are still guys in their20s that are like, oh God,
anybody over 30 might as well bedead.
But what I like is that guysover their 30s and guys in their
40s and guys in their 50s and60s no longer feel like they're
dead.
I think I hope that we get tothe point.
We're also in a different age,but I hope we've gotten to the
point in our lives where we getto the point in our lives where
we realize we do get better aswe get older and we don't behave
the way we do.
I always think it's funny thatthey think I mean, these are all
men clearly are in their 30s.
You know, I always think it'sfunny that Harold's only 32
(37:48):
because he looks a little bitolder than 32, if you ask me,
think it's funny that Harold'sonly 32, because he looks a
little bit older than 32, if youask me.
But that's one thing I likeabout the revival is that I
don't think they play up on thatas much.
But you know, youth culture,gay culture, is no different
than everybody else's culture,in that youth culture rules.
And here is this young boy.
Think about Cowboy for a minute, you know.
(38:09):
You think about a hustler inTimes Square.
You think of what's his namefrom Midnight Cowboy you think
of, like not Ratso Rizzo hewasn't the hustler but Joe Buck,
John Boyd's character and samekind of thing.
You know what I mean?
This is a kid who's trying tomake his way in life, who's
maybe not the smartest, doesn'thave the tools that these other
(38:30):
men do, and he's invited intothis viper's nest of a birthday
party and you know what he comesout?
He's the only one, basically,other than Donald, who doesn't
play the game, who doesn't comeout humiliated.
You know, bernard, emery,they're all well.
Hank and Larry don't either,because they have that kind of
(38:52):
come together moment.
But I mean he's just kind oflike observing it and actually
he comes out in the end in thebest because he's going to make
some money.
Yeah, he's got to go to bedwith Harold, but he's going to
make some money, which I thinkis interesting.
You know there was a scene thatwas cut that was not in the play
that they wanted to film inwhich there was a kiss between
Hank and Larry after they havetheir makeup and they go
(39:15):
upstairs to Michael's room andLarry is walking towards the
door and goes inside and Michaelsays what do you think is going
on up there to Alan?
And there was actually a scenethey filmed that the actors were
very ambivalent about.
At first they agreed to do itand then they didn't want to do
it.
And then William Friedkin saidlet's just shoot it and see if
we need it.
And it was a scene of themkissing and they filmed it and
(39:37):
they realized that they reallydidn't need it.
It was superfluous.
No, it would detract from it.
It was, yeah, it was notimportant to the story, but it's
interesting that these actorsagain so brave.
How brave were these actors Iwas saying earlier about and
they are, you know, matt Bomer,jonathan Bailey being so brave
for doing these roles.
(39:58):
Now, think about that in themid-60s.
How brave these actors were todo these parts.
And of these nine actors, sixidentified as gay men and six
and the director, robert Moore,of the play, died of AIDS.
Brad Shreve (40:17):
Actually Reuben Green died of a heart attack.
Tony Maietta (40:19):
Well, he disappeared.
Nobody knows where he is.
He's still alive.
Brad Shreve (40:23):
Oh, because I just— I have found very mixed stuff
on him.
So, yeah, you could be right,because I found that he's
missing.
I found that he died 20 yearsago.
I found that he died 10 yearsago.
So, yeah, you could be right,because I found that he's
missing.
I found that he died 20 yearsago.
I found that he died 10 yearsago.
So, yeah, I'll take your wordthat he's still missing.
Tony Maietta (40:35):
Yeah, william Friedkin said he hasn't heard
from Ruben Green.
Ruben Green plays Bernard.
He's the African-American, theonly African-American character,
and he was a model.
He wasn't an actor, he was amodel.
He did this part, he did acouple other TV shows and then
he distanced himself from thisfilm and kind of disappeared.
All the cast members thesurviving cast members say they
(40:58):
have had no contact with him,don't know where he is, what he
is.
So, if he's alive, keithPrentiss, robert Letourneau, all
died of AIDS.
That is one of the mostdevastating, devastating
(41:19):
legacies of this film.
I think it's terribly sad.
Brad Shreve (41:24):
I'll tell you, when I was looking at each of these
cast members and Kenneth NelsonI saw he died at 63 and 93 and,
like 93, 93 and 94 were the twobiggest years for AIDS deaths in
the United States.
Leonard Fry 49 and 88.
Keith Prentiss he was 52 and 92.
I started looking at these agesand looking at these years and
my heart was sinking because Iknew before, I saw how they died
(41:47):
, right and sure enough,everyone one of them died of
AIDS-related death and it justyou know I've shared before that
I was removed because of whereI lived and being in the closet
at the same time.
Aids was this thing that wenton elsewhere.
You know, it was that thingthat was out there that people
were talking about.
And to watch these charactersand as much as I say they
(42:12):
irritate the hell out of me Igrew to like these characters at
the same time and thenafterwards to see that these
actors, who I like theircharacters and I respected that
they were able to do this, tosee almost all of them died of
AIDS, it just it's devastating.
I was actually in tears.
I was in tears.
Tony Maietta (42:25):
It really is the gut punch epilogue to this film.
Brad Shreve (42:30):
Well, when my friends tell me that we're out
at that time, they say they lostalmost everybody they knew.
Well, you know that's kind ofan abstract thing it is.
Then I watch, I look at thismovie and see all these guys are
gone.
Tony Maietta (42:40):
I thought the same thing.
I'm like, oh, I thought that'ssuch an abstract concept.
And then you see it in front ofyou.
Brad Shreve (42:45):
Yeah, that's exactly what it was.
Tony Maietta (42:47):
But it was that six of the people in this
production we lost to thisplague and I think that, oh, you
know I do not agree with cancelculture at all.
Obviously, if somebody doessomething heinous, like breaks a
law, that's one thing.
That's not cancel culture.
(43:07):
When people talk about thisfilm, you know what's the very
famous saying those who ignore.
History are bound to repeat itIf people think that we are safe
in this world and in ourwonderful lives where we can get
married now and adopt childrenand have wonderful Sunday fun
(43:27):
days out partying, if they don'tthink that can change and we
can go back to a time in the 60swhen this play was put on,
they're crazy.
So that's why I say no.
You don't cancel the Boys inthe Band, you look at it and you
say pay attention, because wehave to fight for this every day
, otherwise we end up right backhere, and I feel the same way
(43:51):
with AIDS.
Obviously, I just got off AIDSlife cycle, so I'm a little bit
on my soapbox here.
People think AIDS is over.
It ain't over, it ain't over.
People are still getting HIVNow, maybe they're living with
it, but they have to take verystrong medications for the rest
of their lives.
I'm not going to turn this intoan HIV podcast either, but what
(44:12):
I'm saying is that that pissesme off when people say negative
things about this film and wantto forget about it and erase our
culture.
Those who ignore history aredoomed to repeat it, and these
men are a living example.
Brad Shreve (44:24):
I was reading in a Facebook group these very
similar statements being madeabout Philadelphia and how it's
so outdated, oh, absolutely.
Boy.
I jumped in on that.
I said look, I just talked toRon.
Let me tell you what I thinkGood, and I don't know if I set
them straight.
I will say one thing I'm reallyhappy happened.
You know, I'm sure a lot ofpeople were really upset that
(44:45):
Ryan Murphy and Netflix decidedto remake this film Because it
is a classic and people hate itwhen classics are remade.
But what I love about it isthey've reached an audience that
never would have gone andwatched this 1970 film.
I agree with you, they neverwould have looked at anything,
but they see, ooh, matt Bomber'sin it.
They would have looked atanything, but they see, oh, matt
bomber's in it and this guy'sthey're on, they're, they're on
netflix and they saw a film thatthey never would have seen
(45:06):
otherwise I agree with you.
Tony Maietta (45:07):
You know, and I have my issues with ryan murphy
oh, I do um and some of thethings he does, but I what I
love about that is that it was abroadway play first.
He put it on broadway where itfinally.
What a what a win.
Thank god that mark crowleylived.
To see his creation on Broadway, where it should have always
been, and then to win the TonyAward as Best Revival and then
(45:29):
to have it open to a wideraudience on Netflix is wonderful
.
You know, mark Crowley didn't.
After this he kind of went backto his dilettante life.
You know what I mean?
He was very much like Michael.
He was traveling from city tocity and the only place he was
ever happy was on the goddamnplane.
And it wasn't until NatalieWood came to his rescue once
again with Robert Wagner.
(45:49):
By now they were remarried andsaid would you come to LA and
work on Heart to Heart?
And he produced Heart to Heart.
And then, of course, thetragedy with Natalie Wood
happened.
And what's interesting aboutMark Crowley is Mark Crowley did
write a sequel.
Did you know there was a sequelto this play Boys in the Band?
No, I had no idea.
Yeah, uh he, he wrote a sequelin 2002 called the Men from the
(46:14):
Boys, and this is what's kind ofinteresting about that.
So he's he's written it.
Post AIDS the characters allget together for the funeral of
Larry.
Post AIDS the characters allget together for the funeral of
Larry, who hasn't died of AIDS,he's died of pancreatic cancer.
It had its premiere in SanFrancisco and it just never went
anywhere.
I think it's interesting thathe didn't address the AIDS
(46:37):
crisis.
If you're going to address that, maybe it's because of these
friends of his that he lost dueto the crisis and he didn't want
to revisit that so literally.
So maybe he made the pancreaticcancer.
But I find that reallyinteresting that he wrote the
sequel that totally did not dealwith the AIDS crisis.
Brad Shreve (46:55):
Interesting.
Yeah, that is reallyinteresting.
Tony Maietta (46:58):
I don't know.
Yeah, I don't know why hedidn't do that, but maybe again.
Maybe it's because he lostthese dear, dear people.
Brad Shreve (47:15):
Yeah, I don't know why he didn't do that, but maybe
again, maybe it's because helost these dear, dear people, do
you want to?
Was in a soap opera, I guess,did a little role at the time
and he went and cashed his checkthat he made at the soap opera
and he passed the theater and hesaw the line that he said was
it was way down going down thestreet with 500 people, yeah,
and he initially thought thatthe theater was burning down so
(47:38):
instantly.
It was popular then.
And then the budget for thisfilm is pretty amazing to me
because, given the time, thetopic and the time Now I'm
getting two different numbers.
Imdb said this movie costs $1.3million to make.
Every other source I see,including the movie database, is
$5.5 million.
Either of those numbers arepretty astounding when you
(48:00):
consider that MASH MASH was $3.5million to make, butch Cassidy
and the Sundance Kid $6 millionto make.
Now there were other biggerhits, but those were hits that
were made on what today we wouldconsider a very low budget and
this movie wasn't that farbehind really, especially at the
$5.5 million.
This is accurate, yeah, so thefact that it was given that much
(48:22):
money, I don't know where itcame from, you may know.
Tony Maietta (48:25):
It was Cinema Center Films which CBS owned,
which was a CBS company, Okay,but I saw those figures too and
I got to tell you I'm wondering5.5 million in 1970 was a shit
ton of money, yeah, For a oneset film.
This film takes place on oneset.
There were exteriors, fabulousexteriors of New York in the
(48:47):
late sixties on the Upper EastSide.
There was a shot in Julius'sbar in the West village which
they replicated in the RyanMurphy version, which I love,
and Mark Crowley's in the in theon the in the bar scene.
So if you watch it again, lookfor Mark Crowley, he's against
the window.
If you watch it again, look forMark Crowley, he's against the
window.
So, yeah, I find it difficultto believe that they spent $5.5
million on this movie.
Brad Shreve (49:09):
I agree with you and I will say that I looked at
five big hit movies from 1970.
And the IMDb dollar amountmatched all these other sites
verbatim.
This was the only one that Isaw huge discrepancy and I, like
you, I'm leaning more towardsthey used somebody's real patio
and then they built one set.
Yes, exactly, I am leaningtowards more believing the 1.3
(49:30):
million, which to me still is apretty big deal.
Tony Maietta (49:33):
These actors were not getting million-dollar
salaries either.
Brad Shreve (49:36):
What would have been just a very cheap indie
film that nobody would have sawnormally.
Tony Maietta (49:41):
Yeah, I would tend to agree with the other thing
and you know, because of itssubject matter, you know it had
very limited release.
Obviously it played in New York, it played in Los Angeles, it
played in the cities, but youknow it wasn't about to play in
Peoria, you know, or Omaha.
So it's the fact that thefigures I got of it it made $3.5
(50:02):
million, which seems a littlemore in line with, you know, if
it cost about a million, $2million to make, then it made a
small, small profit which was awin, you know, considering it
had such limited release.
But here's the interestingthing about this and I kind of
alluded to it before, about howthis movie was being filmed 20
(50:23):
blocks away from Stonewall.
At the same time this moviewent into production in 1969 as
a groundbreaking event.
By the time it was released andwe're talking about a year, it
was suddenly retrograde.
It was suddenly somebody calledit the gay Uncle Tom's cabin.
(50:45):
That is how much societychanged in the year between
beginning of this film and thetime it was released.
So this film really kind of gota bum rap in that respect.
And when they had the revivalof it, the very first revival in
1996, off-Broadway, which Ialso saw, ben Bradley began his
(51:08):
review with.
I guess it's okay to like theboys in the band again Because
it got a really bad rap, becausepeople didn't want to be pushed
back into the closet and somany people thought this film
represented the closet.
Well it did, because it takesplace in a time where the closet
was still very much a reality,and that's the criticism of this
film represented the closet?
Well it did, because it takesplace in a time where the closet
(51:29):
was still very much a reality,and that's the criticism of this
film.
I think you have to, as I saidbefore, you have to separate
that and you have to look atthis as the historic time
capsule of an era and hope toGod we don't ever go back to
that era again.
Brad Shreve (51:42):
I agree.
And you know what?
I can totally see why all thathappened.
This was just really bad timingfor this, one year for this
film.
Yeah, because this was filmedbefore Stonewall.
It came out after Stonewall.
All of a sudden we're out andwe're not all miserable and
we're not all psychopaths.
And you know, nobody was sayingwe're just like you, because
everybody wanted to emphasizethey weren't, but they were
(52:03):
still okay.
But when I say everybody, I'malways generalizing.
I could see why somebody atthat point were like, okay,
we're getting out of that.
And now, oh, look there, we'remiserable again.
I could see why somebody atthat point would say, oh, why
did why no?
Tony Maietta (52:19):
Yeah.
Brad Shreve (52:20):
I can understand why that happened.
It was bad timing.
Tony Maietta (52:23):
It was.
It was bad timing, it was.
It was unfortunate, and thatcould be another reason why
these actors' careers didn'texactly skyrocket the way that
you think they would have whenyou're a part of this
groundbreaking film.
Think of Virginia Woolf.
They all got nominated forOscars for Virginia Woolf.
This movie got nominated for noOscars.
Now, I'm not saying that Oscarsnecessarily equate with a good
(52:45):
film, but you know they're agood barometer for it.
And there were no Oscarnominations for this film and
this film just kind of went away, you know, it just kind of died
.
It was that, the urban myth ofthis.
You know of this, not thisterrible film, but this film
that paints us in such a badlight.
You know of this, not thisterrible film, but this film
(53:06):
that paints us in such a badlight.
And what I love is with therevivals in 96 and 2018 and the
Netflix.
And then they just recentlyreleased this film on DVD in a
beautiful, pristine condition.
The colors are gorgeous.
This film is being looked at aswith the respect it deserves.
This film deserves the respectof every single gay man, every
(53:26):
single queer person who watchesit, because it was the first.
It might not be the best, butit said it before.
Anybody else had the guts tosay it and put it out there for
all the world to see.
So for that reason I willalways applaud Boys in the Band,
always.
Brad Shreve (53:45):
And I will now get to you what my feeling is,
because I told you what myfeeling was about this movie
before I watched it.
Uh-oh, and I said I'm going towatch it with an open mic.
Gird your loins, people.
No, actually it's good.
I still find it disturbing.
It was much more disturbingthan I anticipated.
I thought, okay, Okay, you knowwhat I was thinking in the past
.
No, it hurt me a lot more thanI expected.
But I have a huge respect forthis movie and I didn't know how
(54:07):
to verbalize it until I read itin.
Maybe Washington Blade I don'tknow where I read this that what
this movie did.
Before this movie, gays werealways depicted as the
psychopath or the depressed, thesick individual.
They were sick, Right, and thismovie was the first, or at
least the first, to garnerattention.
(54:28):
That said, we're not gaybecause we're sick.
We're sick because we're gaybecause of how society treats us
.
Ooh, If we're unhappy, it'sbecause of society, not because
of who we are or what we are.
Tony Maietta (54:40):
That's a beautiful , that's beautifully put.
Brad, I was almost going tohave a quick comeback Like why
don't you not tell me about it?
But I like that that's, that'svery, that's very beautifully
put.
Yeah, it's very true, it isvery true.
This movie may not deserve,this movie may not receive, uh,
the glory your love as helldeserves your respect.
Brad Shreve (55:02):
Exactly, it's not a movie.
I want to sit down and justrelax and watch.
It's not that at all.
Tony Maietta (55:06):
No.
Brad Shreve (55:06):
But I do have a huge respect for the film,
absolutely.
Tony Maietta (55:09):
And I don't think any film can ask for more than
that.
Brad Shreve (55:12):
Yeah.
Tony Maietta (55:13):
Well, I think that's great.
I think we just did the boys inthe band.
How about that?
I think we did.
Thanks everybody.
We still need an ending.
Oh, I think I always wanted tomention okay, I should have
(55:33):
mentioned this before.
We have a playlist on spotifythat brad has created and I add
to uh for all the songs that Ican't sing on this podcast.
Um, you can go to our spotifyto going hollywood uh podcast
and listen to some of thewonderful songs that we talk
about from a lot of these moviesthat we discuss and we pick and
choose.
Brad Shreve (55:44):
I was putting a whole playlist and I realized,
no, no, not all of that's good.
So we do pick and choose fromthe films.
Tony Maietta (55:49):
You were.
I looked at the one you did forFellow Travelers.
I was like Jesus man.
Brad Shreve (55:53):
How many songs do you have?
I took all those out.
Tony Maietta (55:54):
I took only the ones that had vocals in them and
don't forget to rate and reviewus, please.
Oh, one last thing Thank you toall the people who have rated
and reviewed us, given us fivestars.
That's really lovely.
You know, brad and I.
It may not be hard to believe,but Brad and I have other jobs
that we do.
We're both incredibly busypeople and this is truly this
(56:18):
podcast for me and I hope Ispeak for Brad is truly a labor
of love, and to have yourpositive feedback and to have
your encouragement means theworld to us, and I just want to
say thank you for that, foreverybody who's taken the time
to give us a five-star rating orto write a review.
It's fabulous.
So thank you very much,everybody, and for listening
always.
Brad Shreve (56:39):
Podcasting is a lonely business because we sit
here and we talk on microphones.
We see each other, but then itgoes out in the world and we may
see people are listening to itor whatever.
But that's it.
Unless you let us know, you'rejust numbers and we don't want
that and we appreciate it.
I don't care about the numbers.
I want to hear what yourthoughts are and actually
there's a way you can, if you'dlike to tell what your opinions
(57:01):
are of the movies and ourthoughts on them.
In the show notes of everyepisode it says text us your
opinion or comment.
Text it to us.
We can't respond, but we willread it to you on the air, so
make sure you tell us your name.
Tony Maietta (57:13):
Yeah, and if you want to give us a suggestion of
a film to watch you know we werejust talking about what our
film choices would be let usknow.
I mean, that would be a lot offun.
Yes, thanks everybody.
This is Queer, we Are Hi.
This is Brad.
And what better movie todiscuss during Pride Month than
the celebrated 1970s the Boys inthe Band.
Some love it, some hate it, andwe discussed both sides, but it
(00:24):
cannot be argued.
It was groundbreaking.
I haven't been around with newepisodes because I've been tied
up on jury duty for anexhaustive murder trial.
Court has been in session forone month and we still haven't
begun deliberations.
This is the first time I'veever done this.
Given the trial, which has mademe even later publishing my
next novel, I've decided to putthe show on summer hiatus rather
(00:46):
than trying to get somethingout to you as time allows.
I have great guests lined upfor when Queer Re-Art returns,
including Oscar winners, expertson the bear community, lesbian
history and much more.
I am excited and I hate that Ihad to put them off.
Since I've had to rescheduleguests, I'm providing another
(01:07):
episode of the Going Hollywoodpodcast, where I discuss movies
and television with filmhistorian Tony Maeda.
We converse about the positiveand negative viewpoints of the
boys in the band as well as takeyou behind the scenes.
If you'd like to check out theGoing Hollywood podcast and I
hope you do there's a link inthe show notes.
Tony Maietta (02:30):
Hello, I'm film historian Tony Maietta.
Brad Shreve (02:33):
And I'm Brad Shreve , who's just a guy who likes
movies.
Tony Maietta (02:36):
We discuss movies and television from Hollywood's
golden age.
We go behind the scenes andshare our opinions too.
And, of course, being theaverage guy, my opinions are the
ones that matter, as does yourself-delusion.
Welcome to Going Hollywood,Brad.
(03:00):
Before we start, because Inever see you except when we're
recording these podcasts, and Iwanted to invite you to this
birthday party that I'm going to.
I was wondering if you'd liketo go with me.
You know it's going to be areally tight group about nine
guys.
It's just a very smallget-together and these guys are
a lot of fun.
They can be a lot of fun, andit's at this fabulous apartment
with this huge terrace thatoverlooks the city.
(03:22):
So, would you like to go with me?
Brad Shreve (03:23):
You know, tony, I get such a rare opportunity to
get into the city now that Ilive outside, that I would love
to come to one of your parties.
Tony Maietta (03:30):
Oh good.
Well, it's not my party, it'sfor a friend of mine.
It's his 32nd birthday.
Oh, he's old.
It'll be a lot of fun.
But you know, I should probablymention, you know, that.
Just a little caveat there isthe slightest potential for
humiliation, emotional scarringand devastation, but there'll be
(03:50):
cake.
Brad Shreve (03:52):
Well, hey, cake's all that matters.
I can deal with the rest of it.
Tony Maietta (03:55):
Happy Pride, everybody.
Happy Pride.
It's boys in the band.
Did we give it away?
Did we give it away too muchthere?
Nothing to sing.
Brad Shreve (04:04):
You know, with this podcast being relatively new,
tony and I were making all kindsof plans to you know what
episodes do we want to do?
When we brainstormed andfinally Tony's like wait a
minute, it's Pride Month, weneed to do a Pride Month episode
, and so we have just enoughtime to get this one in.
What a good one to choose.
Tony Maietta (04:40):
Well, I think we kind of have to, and I was also
saying to Brad too you know it'skind of redundant that we're
doing a Pride episode because somany of our episodes have gay
references, but I feel it wasreally important that we do this
.
Landmark film's a very, very.
No matter how you feel about it, good or bad there's no denying
it's a landmark and it needs tobe discussed, I think.
Brad Shreve (04:52):
And I have a couple of things to say about it.
I was, I had mixed emotionswhen you said it.
I immediately said, oh God, wehave to do it.
It's a classic Right.
But if you remember, I saidwell, what were you talking?
I assumed you were talkingabout the 1970 film, but I
didn't want to 100% assume that.
I didn't want to watch thewrong thing.
So I asked you are we talkingabout the 70 film, the Netflix
2020 film, or are we doing both?
And you were like well, I onlyhad my head in 1970.
(05:15):
I said that's fine.
So I had mixed feelings when youdecided that this would be a
good idea, tony.
And the reason is I hate thismovie.
I've always hated this movie.
It's disturbing.
There's a lot about it I hate.
So I said, when I sit down thistime, I'm going to go with an
open mind and put things in adifferent perspective.
So I did that and later I willshare with you if my feelings
(05:38):
about this movie have changed.
Okay, good, Good.
But like any movie, right now Ican tell you there are big
pluses and big minuses, like anyfilm, and we can certainly get
into those along the way.
Tony Maietta (05:48):
Yeah, you know, I think this movie is important to
do, just for its landmark value.
You know, there's no gettingaround it, whether you love it
or whether you hate it, it wasthe first time that gay
characters were seen asquote-unquote normal people.
Now I know there's people whoare going to give me an argument
about what normal is, butanyway, that weren't aberrants
(06:11):
of nature, that gay people werejust like everybody else.
It was the first time in amainstream film.
Obviously, there had been gaycharacters in films and they
usually were murderers or weremurdered.
You know Sebastian Venablegetting eaten literally by a
group of roving tree dirchins.
So what's important about theBoys in the Band is that it was
(06:33):
the first and, yeah, love it,hate it.
It has that distinction.
So I think that's why it'simportant for us to talk about.
I have mixed feelings about thisfilm as well, you know.
It's funny because I think Iwas thinking about when was the
first time I saw Boys in theBand and, regardless of what
anyone might think out there, Idid not see it in the theater in
1970.
The first time I saw it, I know, was on VHS.
(06:57):
It had been released on VHS,which was a horrible quality
Horrible, horrible, but I had tosee it because I heard so much
about it.
But I think I saw Cruisingfirst.
Okay, william Friedkin, for asupposedly straight man, and he
was married four times, so I'massuming he was straight.
He directed the two mostcontroversial films in gay
(07:19):
cinema history the Boys in theBand and then, 10 years later,
cruising.
Brad Shreve (07:25):
Oh, someday we'll do Cruising, but I'll have to
get my stomach ready for that.
Tony Maietta (07:29):
I think I saw Cruising first, so Boys in the
Band wasn't that scarring to mebecause nobody was being knifed
to death in Boys in the Band.
You know what I mean.
So coming to Boys in the Bandafter seeing Cruising was like a
breath of fresh air for mepersonally.
Boys in the Band after seeingCruising, it was like a breath
of fresh air.
Brad Shreve (07:45):
for me personally, queer people were protesting,
cruising.
I know people that tell me theywere out there with their
placards.
Tony Maietta (07:51):
Well, queer people were protesting.
Boys in the Band.
Brad Shreve (07:53):
Well, yeah, but Cruising was a flashback to
basically gay men are allpsychopaths.
Tony Maietta (08:00):
Yeah, it's a hard film to watch.
Maybe we can do it sometimeno-transcript.
Brad Shreve (08:34):
I'm going to get to that later but I'm going to
give my description at first.
Boys in the Band is a 1970 filmbased on a 1968 play by Matt
Crowley and, to put this inperspective, the play came out
the year before Stonewall andtherefore the movie came out and
I assume was being filmedduring the time of Stonewall
Interesting story there.
So this is a pretty amazingtime period.
Tony Maietta (08:54):
Yes, you know what Mark Crowley said.
The reason he wasn't atStonewall although I don't think
he would frequent Stonewall, heprobably went more for the
townhouse.
Knowing Mark Crowley wentStonewall, he probably would
have been.
He probably went more for thetownhouse, knowing Mark Crowley.
They were filming the boys inthe band, you know, 20 blocks up
from Stonewall, uh, when thewriting began.
So that's, that's kind of tellsyou what was going on.
So the boys in the band beganas one movie and ended as
(09:17):
something very different.
Brad Shreve (09:18):
And you mentioned that you think he'd hang out at
the townhouse.
I'm sure you know he did inreal life.
Tony Maietta (09:30):
Did he really?
Brad Shreve (09:30):
That was a shot in the dark.
Yes, the apartment was based onan actress and I'll have to
find her name Tammy Grimes.
Tammy Grimes the exterior wasactually filmed at her apartment
.
Right, the daytime Right.
But they could not get thecameras inside her apartment.
It was too small.
So they built a set that theysay matched it.
So pretty, damn nice apartment.
I'll tell you that.
Tony Maietta (09:46):
Gorgeous apartments on the Upper East
Side.
Brad Shreve (09:48):
Nobody could afford that in New York today.
Tony Maietta (09:50):
No, certainly not.
So what is this movie about?
Brad Shreve (09:53):
Okay.
So the movie is about abirthday party and it is hosted
by Michael, and Michael is a forlack of a better word I keep
seeing recovering alcoholic.
He doesn't usually really usethat term.
He pretty much just says Istopped drinking, but he's an
alcoholic.
You definitely learned that.
He also is Catholic and seemsto be struggling there.
And he is hosting this partyfor his friend, harold.
(10:16):
And I don't know what Harolddoes for a living.
I don't think he's ever told.
But Harold describes himself asan ugly, pockmarked Jew fairy.
Michael and all his friends areall stereotypes and I don't see
that as a negative because I'mfirmly of the belief that
stereotypes do exist for areason and every one of these
individuals is a stereotype.
But I can also say I know everyone of these individuals.
Tony Maietta (10:37):
Yeah, that's true.
Well, that's very true.
Brad Shreve (10:40):
Yeah, I know every one of them.
Michael is really strugglingwith his identity.
Though you would never know itat the beginning, he seems the
most stable.
Harold is very self-loathing,bitter in his own way.
Emery is super flamboyant, thedecorator.
Well they are archetypes.
Yes.
Tony Maietta (10:56):
Now I hear what you're saying.
They are archetypes.
But I think it's important topoint out, and Mark Crowley has
said this, and I wanted to get alittle bit in the background of
and Mark Crowley has said thisand I wanted to get a little bit
in the background of I'm notgonna talk a lot about the play,
but it's important becausebasically, what we're seeing
when we see the film the Boys inthe Band is the play, is the
film version of the play,because it has the exact same
cast, almost all of the samedialogue.
So I want to talk about that.
(11:17):
But what Mark Crowley?
When he would get criticizedfor saying it was a bad
representation of gay culture,he's like I'm not trying to
represent gay culture, these aremy friends.
All of these characters werebased on real people that Mark
Crowley knew.
Now, harold, he was an iceskater.
I don't think he's still iceskating, but, as you said, you
didn't know what he did.
(11:37):
Harold was an ice skater.
He was based on a very goodfriend of Mark Crowley's.
Basically, what happened is letme go ahead and give a little
background about.
Can I go ahead and give alittle bit of background about
how the boys in the band cameabout and about Mark Crowley.
Sure, let's go ahead and dothat.
So, anyway, mark Crowley grew upin the South and longed to be a
(12:01):
playwright.
He moved to New York when he wasyoung and he somehow found
himself being a PA on the set ofSplendor in the Grass and being
a PA primarily for Natalie Wood, and he and Natalie Wood became
very close friends and whenSplendor in the Grass was over,
natalie Wood asked him to comeback to Los Angeles with her and
(12:23):
be her assistant.
So he became Natalie Wood'sassistant and he was very much
in the Hollywood scene of the60s, which was a fabulous,
fabulous time to be in Hollywood, I think, and he knew all these
people and he actually one ofthe things that she said if he
came to Hollywood with her, shewould give him a meeting with
her agent at William Morris sohe could get some work writing.
(12:46):
And he actually wrote somescreenplays, one of which was
purchased by 20th Century Fox tostar Natalie Wood, and Natalie
Wood was going to play twins,one of the twins being a lesbian
, which would have beenincredible, but 20th Century Fox
lost their nerve and it neverhappened.
Brad Shreve (13:04):
It was called.
Tony Maietta (13:05):
Cassandra at the wedding.
Yeah, so Mark Crowley was kindof like a dilettante.
He was in the room where ithappened, he was with all these
famous people, all these thingswere happening around him, yet
he was not doing anything and hebegan to get very depressed and
he began to drink.
Well, he had this friend, thisvery good friend, named Howard
Jeffries, who was a dancer andworked on all the big musicals
(13:27):
in the 60s.
He was in Funny Girl, he wasthe groom in the bridal scene,
he was in Hello Dolly.
He was a very, veryaccomplished dancer and he took
Mart to this birthday party thatwas full of well, not full of
gay men, a small birthday partyof about a dozen gay men.
And that was the first lightbulb that went off in Mark
(13:50):
Crowley's mind about what hecould possibly write.
That spoke to him as a gay man.
And he said that he was lyingin bed and he was very depressed
and he just started writinglines, one after the other,
after the other, and he just didthis for days and days and days
until he finally had a playthat was based on the concept of
(14:12):
a birthday party.
It's Harold, who he based on hisfriend Howard Jeffries.
Harold's 32nd birthday, all ofthese men come together to wish
him a happy birthday and, ofcourse, the night it turns into
a long day's journey into night.
It's, it's just how it happens,how it degenerates.
(14:32):
But here's what I have aproblem with, and maybe you
don't agree with this.
I have been to parties likethis.
You know, maybe they didn'tdegenerate to the point that
they degenerate to in in theboys in the band, but I
certainly there, certainly was.
It was something in the airthat I knew this was turning
quickly.
I got to get out of here.
So that's why, when people sayit's stereotypical, I don't know
(14:54):
that that's necessarily true orthat's necessarily a bad thing,
because I think these peopleexist.
Brad Shreve (15:00):
When I say it's stereotypical, I meant the
characters are stereotypes, okay.
Tony Maietta (15:05):
And yeah.
Brad Shreve (15:05):
I guess you could say the situation is
stereotypical, but I don't knowif I thought that at first.
The self-loathing is certainlyheavy.
Yes, here's my challenge withthis.
So let me go back into thedescription that I've seen
online, and this is where I havea challenge with this film.
I'm reading I don't rememberwhere the source was, but it's
almost identical to everythingelse.
(15:26):
I've seen A witty, perceptiveand devastating look at the
personal agendas and suppressedrevelations swirling among a
group of gay men in Manhattan.
Harold is celebrating abirthday and his friend, michael
has drafted some other friendsto help commemorate the event.
Here's where I have thechallenge.
As the evening progresses, thealcohol flows, the knives come
out and Michaels demand that thegroup participate in devious
(15:48):
telephone games, unleasheddormant and unspoken emotions.
If that was this movie, I wouldlike it better.
That did not describe thismovie.
Those tensions and thoseantagonisms were right from the
very beginning.
They got worse as later goes on.
Originally I didn't like thisfilm because there was so much
self-loathing.
And then I looked at my ownlife and I'm like God.
(16:09):
I had self-loathing for a lotof years.
I relate to these people.
Yeah, pretty common.
But you know this is all beforemy time, but I've talked to guys
in this era and they said therewere two things about it.
One, it was scary because younever knew who to trust.
Yes, but despite all that anddespite the pain and the
suffering, when they gottogether it was very painful but
(16:29):
there's also a lot of joy, yeah, and they really look on that
fondly and I didn't see any ofthat in this movie Really.
And what I would have liked toseen better, more is in the
beginning.
Maybe it would have been longeror there.
Probably.
I can think of a few thingsthat could have been taken out.
Nothing major.
I would have liked to have seenmore of that joy and the
campiness, because I think thecamp was much more over the top
(16:50):
then Because they had to expressthemselves somehow.
You don't think Emery was campy.
Tony Maietta (16:55):
Well, I Connie Casserole.
Oh Mary, don't ask.
Brad Shreve (17:00):
No, no, I would like to have seen more of that
amongst the whole group.
And they did a little bit of it.
They did a little dancing, theydid the dance of Fire Island,
reading each other and that kindof thing.
To me it went downhill way toofast and it really started out
with Michael and is it Donald?
Yes, michael and Donald arefriends, but there's that
antagonism between them rightfrom the beginning.
(17:21):
So I wish it was a little morefun in the beginning and then
pull this into the pain.
Tony Maietta (17:28):
Well, see, I find it so funny it's.
You know, it's no accident.
The two inspirations that MarkCrowley looks to or mentioned as
his inspirations for this, forthe play and for the film were
who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?
Duh, I mean, it is the gay.
Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf?
If that's not redundant.
I mean, the dialogue is thatdense and cutting and it can
(17:55):
turn on a dime from outrageouscomedy to tragedy.
And that's Virginia Woolf andthat's the boys in the band.
It's actually one of two playsthat were put out on recording.
I remember because I had bothof them.
They were actually made audiorecordings on albums of Virginia
Woolf and Boys in the Band andit makes sense because they're
like bookends.
(18:16):
He also looked at Rope, theAlfred Hitchcock film.
There's a play that the AlfredHitchcock film was based on
because it takes place in realtime, and the Boys and the Band
also takes place in real timeand if you've seen, the movie
Rope.
Brad Shreve (18:28):
The play is much more blatant.
It's a gay couple.
It's not hinted at.
Tony Maietta (18:33):
So what I think is I find it hysterically funny in
the beginning, because I don'tknow these lines.
They're so bright, they're sosharp no-transcript.
Brad Shreve (19:37):
just give us a little more of that good time.
I didn't laugh a lot throughthis, and I never have.
I was reading the review of the2018 Broadway, you know cause.
It was originally off Broadwayand then 2018, they brought it
on Broadway and I was readingthe review of that Right.
Tony Maietta (19:52):
Finally finally made it to broad.
It finally made it to Broadway.
Brad Shreve (19:55):
Yes, it did, and they said the audience was
saying the lines, the funnylines before they were.
They were being spoken and werelaughing and I'm like there are
some great funny lines in there, but to me they were so
overshadowed by the pain andmaybe that's the part I'm
missing, that you have that joyin the midst of pain and that is
part more what I got from itlater on.
Tony Maietta (20:15):
Well, here's the thing.
I mean.
This play was written when wecould still be arrested.
Obviously, it was beforeStonewall.
What was Stonewall?
Stonewall was the police comingin and raiding a bar to arrest
people.
So this play was written in atime.
Now here's the thing, though Inthe mid-60s, the culture was
tearing, and what happens whenthings start to tear is other
(20:37):
things start to seep in.
So, as the culture is tearingin the mid-60s because of
Vietnam, because of civil rightsprotests, suddenly there's a
(20:58):
space opening up for these otherthings to happen, such as gay
culture coming forward.
So when the play was made, itwas a very different time.
It was still very oppressive.
These men could find a familywith each other.
No matter how dysfunctional youmay think it may be, it was
still a family.
You know, at the end of theplay, after Harold absolutely
decimates Michael with his wordsand Michael is a heap he's not
quite a heap, but he's going tobe a heap he turns to him and he
(21:19):
says call you tomorrow Now,think about okay yeah, that's a
pretty dysfunctional friendship,okay, but there's that sense of
family there, that sense oflove there that people have with
people.
They're close.
That my own internalizedstruggles with my sexuality.
I remember that pain, thatself-loathing, that hatred.
(21:48):
These people are personifyingthat.
Brad Shreve (21:50):
Oh yeah.
Tony Maietta (21:51):
And it existed.
It's a historic fact.
Still exists, still exists.
Brad Shreve (21:56):
And I agree, that's where I did connect is when I
really thought wait a minute,you hated yourself just as much
as these guys did.
But again, what you describedis not all that I saw.
Tony Maietta (22:10):
I wanted to see more of that in the film.
Brad Shreve (22:11):
As I said, I'm only going this from hearsay, from
what men of that era have toldme is the joy and the love of
their adopted family or theirchosen family, and I would have
liked to seen a little.
But they also talked about thepain and the fear and everything
else, and I would have liked toseen just a little more of that
chosen family love before thatpain that obviously still did
exist as well came in.
That's all I'm saying, becauseit would have endeared me a
(22:33):
little bit more to each of thecharacters.
I get what you're saying.
I wanted to care just a littlebit more.
The characters are hard to like.
Tony Maietta (22:39):
Like people, they're very complex characters.
Michael, the character ofMichael, who's played by Kenneth
Nelson, was sort of kind ofbased on, you know, mark Crowley
based him kind of on himself.
Mark Crowley based him kind ofon himself.
Mark Crowley had issues withdrinking.
He became sober later in hislife and he just God bless him
he died.
He finally won the Tony Awardfor the revival for Best Revival
(23:02):
of a Play of the Boys in theBand and he died a little bit
later.
He had a heart attack, which issad because he was a very, very
funny, wonderful guy.
So Michael is based on MarkCrowley at that time.
As I said, harold is based onhis friend Howard Jeffries, and
there are other.
Donald was based on anotherdear friend.
Donald was played by FrederickHolmes, who was the Matt Bomer
(23:24):
character in the revival andanother good friend of his.
So these were all friends ofhis and he was showing the
facets of all of his friends.
I think what I want to say aboutthis and the historical
importance of both the play andthe film.
This play first of all had avery I don't want to go into all
the machinations of how it goton stage.
(23:46):
It was a workshop that EdwardAlbee produced from the money he
was making from who's Afraid ofVirginia Wolf, because he
didn't want to give to thegovernment.
So he created this workshop andit was for five nights.
And the first night of the showof the play, the house was half
full this was in 1968.
And the second night, the nextmorning after the first night,
(24:09):
there was a line down the blockof about 500 people waiting to
see this play.
So this play was huge, playedfive performances in the
workshop and then it moveduptown to, I think, 55th Street
and played for 1,001performances.
So this play was big and whenthe movie companies came to Mark
(24:30):
Crowley saying that they wantedto buy it and make a film of it
, because that was happening allthe brave actors who literally
put their careers on the line toplay these parts Lawrence
(24:59):
Luckinbill, who plays Hank, theone who was married but is
bisexual and struggling withsexuality with Harry said that
they all lost their agentsbecause their agents all told
them don't do this play.
And they're like we're going todo this play.
It's a brilliant play, soanyway, he wanted to reward them
.
Brad Shreve (25:17):
I saw an interview.
He said his wife at the time,robin Strasser.
She said do you want to reallydo this?
And he said I do.
And she said, okay, there goesyour career.
Yeah, she supported him, butit's just like okay there goes
your career, absolutely,absolutely.
Tony Maietta (25:29):
That was the thing you know.
We talked a little bit aboutwhen I was acting and how I had
to be.
I had to play it straight.
I don't know how successful Iwas, but I mean that's so.
Can you imagine in the 60s,when we were still we could
still be arrested?
It wasn't good.
Yeah, so he.
But so Mark Crow studio CinemaCenter Films, and the only thing
(25:56):
that happened was they had toget a new director.
They couldn't have Robert Moorebecause the studio said we
can't have.
Robert Moore was the originaldirector of the play and Robert
Moore was the actor director whoplayed Phyllis's brother on the
Mary Tyler Moore Show the onewho's gay, by the way, ps, cute
little aside.
So William Friedkin came in.
He had just directed theBirthday Party and he was one of
(26:17):
these.
You know, one of the youngTurks coming to Hollywood in the
early 70s, like Alan Pakula andMartin Scorsese, who
revolutionized film business,and he used.
These actors were able tocreate the roles they created on
stage in film for posterity.
Now here's.
The sad thing is that most ofthem never hit the same heights
(26:41):
again.
Is it because of the charactersthey played?
Is it because of this film?
Did this film taint it?
I don't know.
They all worked after this filmand Lawrence Luckinbill had a
very illustrious career.
He just wrote his memoir, Ithink other than Robert
Letourneau who played Cowboy.
Brad Shreve (26:58):
The others did okay , they did okay, but they felt
he just kind of vanished after74.
Tony Maietta (27:03):
Yeah Well, they felt very confined.
They felt very stereotyped, inparticular Cliff Gorman, who
plays Emery probably the bravestof them all.
And Cliff Gorman washeterosexual, he was not gay.
Cliff Gorman went on to playLenny Bruce.
He won a Tony Award for playingLenny Bruce in the play version
of Lenny, which was later madeby Dustin Hoffman as a film.
(27:25):
He was very angry about whatEmery did to his career, was
very angry about what Emery didto his career.
A lot of these actors RobertLetourneau was as well.
Robert Letourneau played Cowboy.
Mark Crowley saw him at a teadance on Fire Island and said to
Robert Moore, that's Cowboy.
He was a soap actor and he wasvery bitter about it, although I
(27:47):
don't know if he would have hadsuch a stellar career without
the boys in the band or not.
But a lot of these people youknow.
Leonard Frye was a great actor.
He did Fiddler on the Roof.
After this he was nominated foran Academy Award for that.
He was also a very good lookingguy.
He's not at all like Harold.
He's not like the uglypockmarked Jew fairy he plays in
this film.
It's a brilliant character, ifyou think of the newer version.
(28:16):
I him.
It's a brilliant character Ifyou think of the newer version.
I think Zach Quinto is veryhandsome and he looked like
Harold in the newer version.
So, yeah, exactly.
So these are two very goodlooking guys who definitely
changed their appearance to playthis part.
And Peter White was on All myChildren for like 30 years
playing Link.
I remember him from All myChildren as a kid, I'm like,
because the first time I saw theboys in the band I went that's
Link from all my children.
So, yes, they worked.
Kenneth Nelson moved to Londonand did work in London on London
(28:38):
stage for the rest of his lifeas well.
So they all worked, but theynever really they didn't really
hit the heights that this playpromised.
I guess is the great way to saythat.
Brad Shreve (28:49):
You mentioned Gorman, cliff Gorman being so
brave to play Emery, who was themost flamboyant of the bunch.
When I was reading the articlethat Cliff Gorman and his wife
took care of Robert Letourneauwhen he was dying of AIDS, I'm
like his wife, I'm like that hadto be a typo.
I'm like he was straight.
(29:12):
Oh my goodness, I couldn'tbelieve it.
Tony Maietta (29:13):
It's a little surprising, isn't it?
Speaking of stereotypes, youtalked about stereotypes.
I do have my issues with hisportrayal of Emery Cliff,
gorman's portrayal of Emily.
I mean you can draw a line.
First of all, you can draw aline from Emery all the way down
to Jack McFarlane.
Brad Shreve (29:30):
I mean hello.
Tony Maietta (29:31):
Same trajectory line, from Emery all the way
down to Jack McFarlane of Willand Grace.
I mean, hello, same trajectory,same character.
You can see the beginnings ofit.
I feel like and Friedkin hassaid this too.
William Friedkin said this hefeels like he should have toned
Cliff Gorman down a little bit.
They were all theatrical.
First of all, when WilliamFriedkin agreed to direct this,
he wanted three weeks ofrehearsal and they were all like
(29:53):
what We've been doing, thisshow for 1001 performances, we
do not need to rehearse.
But he had to rehearse them tobring them down for film.
Now they're still all verytheatrical.
I think that's another criticismthat people have of this film.
It's very theatricallypresented because it is based on
(30:13):
a play.
But there are ways to do it.
Virginia Woolf is a primeexample.
Virginia Woolf is an incrediblytheatrical play but a
wonderfully cinematic film.
I don't look at Virginia Woolf,the film, and think well, first
of all, elizabeth Taylor wasnot a theater actress, so there
you go right.
Now you have a theater actress,so there you go, right now you
have a film actress.
So maybe if they had gotten filmactors to do this it would be
(30:35):
different.
But yes, it's a very theatricalpresentation and they're all
just slightly bit too theatrical.
Same thing with Kenneth Nelson.
I think he's just a bit tootheatrical, needs to just dial
it down just a bit.
But then I don't know, maybethat's the essence of the play,
maybe it isn't.
Brad Shreve (31:00):
I agree with you.
I actually think it was.
I'm not going to say a mistake.
I didn't notice the difference.
I don't want to go back andforth between the new Netflix
version and this version, butI'm going to bring it up because
I didn't really notice thetheatricality of the original
movie until I watched theNetflix series.
And I'm not going to say theNetflix series was better,
because it's not, but there weresome.
When I was looking at thecasting choices in the different
characters, I thought some werebetter in 70s, some were better
in the newer one.
(31:21):
But one thing I noticed is Ifelt like the characters were
more real in the newer versionand then I realized it's because
these guys, the other guys areon stage and especially Gorman.
He was playing Exactly.
I felt like I was watchingsomebody play.
I was watching somebody, anactor.
I felt like I was watching anactor every time he was on.
I didn't buy him.
Tony Maietta (31:41):
You just hit the nail.
He was the character that Ifelt the least connected to.
You just hit the nail on thehead with that, which is what I
was going to say, that which isI was going to say.
You know, the interesting thingabout the Netflix is it was the
exact opposite problem.
You have TV and film actorsMatt Bomer, jim Parsons, zachary
Quintero who are TV and film,now having to play on stage.
Because I saw the Broadwayversion of the Netflix oh, did
(32:04):
you?
This was the.
I saw it in New York with thesame cast and they had the
reverse opposite, the reverseproblem that the original actors
had.
The original actors had tobring down their performances
and the ones on the Netflix hadto bring them up for the stage.
So it makes sense that whenyou're watching the Netflix one
that's their comfort zone yeah,they're all TV and film actors,
(32:26):
so they can do that.
It's the exact opposite withthe film version and I think
they all did a fantastic job.
By the way, I really don't,like I said, I have some
problems with Cliff Gorman, butthat's more of a directing thing
.
William Freed should have saidto him bring it down a little
bit, bring it down a little bit,but he didn't.
He wanted to capture thisoutrageous performance of Emery.
Brad Shreve (32:48):
Tony, I'm stopping our conversation real quick.
Tony Maietta (32:50):
Why of Emory, tony , I'm stopping our conversation
real quick.
Why?
Brad Shreve (32:53):
Why we're in the middle of a podcast, but this is
about the podcast and it's veryimportant.
Okay, listener, whatever appyou're listening on, whether
it's on the computer or on thephone, reach your finger or your
mouse over.
It usually says follow.
Some still say subscribe andclick that, and what's going to
happen when they do that, tony?
Tony Maietta (33:10):
They're going to get notified when a new episode
is available and they can listento us again.
You know you don't want to missthat.
No, can we get back to theepisode that we were recording?
Of course, please.
Of course, all right, thank you.
Don't forget to subscribe andfollow.
There you go.
Brad Shreve (33:27):
I have a question about Robin de Jesus, who played
Emery in the Netflix version.
I believe I've seen him inother things.
He is a flamboyant man, am Icorrect?
Yeah, well, I think he was inTick Tick Boom.
Okay, I know I saw Tick TickBoom not too long ago, but I
don't remember.
Tony Maietta (33:41):
The Jonathan Larson thing.
Brad Shreve (33:43):
Yeah, I know, I saw it because I really like Andrew
Garfield as an actor.
I believed him as Emery.
Tony Maietta (33:52):
I didn't feel like he was acting like Emery.
The other guy felt like he wasacting like him.
I've seen quite a fewproductions of this play and
Emery's always the tricky one.
Emery can really divide people.
You need a very, verytechnically skilled actor to
play Emery, otherwise it comesup, especially now because we've
had, you know all I said, theJack McFarlanes.
We have this idea.
He's such a stereotype now.
(34:12):
It's a very tricky part to playand I think Robin de Jesus did
an incredible job.
Yes, I agree.
I also love the fact that theymade him.
You know that he wasn't thiswhite gay guy anymore.
They gave him.
You know he's a man of colorand I loved that.
They did that with that, withthat show, with that particular
performance.
Brad Shreve (34:29):
And I think until somebody knows an Emory, they
will think Emory is a grossstereotype.
Yeah, but there are people likeEmory.
Oh, I know Emory.
Yeah, that's the thing.
Tony Maietta (34:40):
I know what's up with him.
So when people criticize thisplay about, oh, the stereotypes
in it, but they're real, thereare people who are like this,
and they're also full of drama.
Exactly, exactly.
So I have a real problem whenpeople say, oh my god they're so
stereotypical.
These people exist, every one ofthese people exist in my world,
yeah, and I said, and I havebeen to parties that could have
(35:01):
easily degenerated into a partyalmost as bad as this.
So I think those criticisms are.
They're all out there.
You know, there's some validityto some of them and not so much
to others.
That's the way I feel about it.
Brad Shreve (35:16):
So let's talk about Cowboy.
Tony Maietta (35:17):
Okay.
Brad Shreve (35:19):
Robert Letourneau.
I love his character.
I'm very sad for his character.
They are brutal.
It's a very sad character,isn't it?
Yes, he is, I don't know.
He's basically a hustler.
He was hired for $20 for thenight.
Tony Maietta (35:32):
No, he was not basically a hustler.
He's a hustler.
He's not basically a hustler.
He finds him on 42nd Street.
He's a hustler.
Brad Shreve (35:39):
He's a hustler, yes , and he's not the brightest one
that you've ever met.
So he's hired for $20 for thenight, which sounds like pretty
good money.
Back then he was a birthdaypresent from Emery to Harold,
the birthday boy.
He is very dense, sometimes alittle bit to the point of
absurdity, but that's okay.
He was still a fun character.
But the others are so brutal tohim, just so cruel and so
(36:03):
condescending they are, and it'dbe okay if it was a joke here
and there, but my God, they justdidn't let up.
Tony Maietta (36:10):
Well, there's a certain amount of jealousy there
.
Brad Shreve (36:11):
Well, there is.
That's exactly what I felt.
First of all, there was thejealousy, and there was also the
contempt that he didn't havethe culture that they had.
Tony Maietta (36:21):
So it was a little of both.
Well, I mean, that's such a gaything.
I mean that jealousy.
What does Harold say?
You know, this poor boy, histransitory beauty.
Beauty is so transitory, youknow, but you'd give up
everything for just a little bitof that transitory beauty,
wouldn't you, michael?
I mean, I just paraphrased thehell out of it, but that's
basically what—.
Brad Shreve (36:35):
It's so tragic what— he's saying.
His face is so tragic,referring to the fact that it's
going to become tragic.
Tony Maietta (36:40):
Yeah, what a tragedy this boy's face is.
Yeah, I mean.
But you know, I know lots ofgay men who talk that way.
Brad Shreve (36:46):
Who behave that?
Tony Maietta (36:47):
way.
You know what I mean.
There's a real jealousy.
It's the same thing.
It's you know what?
Doesn't Michael say that fagsare worse than women about
growing older?
And to them, growing older is30.
Oh, fags think their life'sover at 30.
And I'm sorry for dropping theF word, but you know that's what
they say in the play.
So I don't want to dance around,yeah, and you know, one thing
(37:26):
I'm glad is I'm glad that's nottrue as much anymore.
There are still guys in their20s that are like, oh God,
anybody over 30 might as well bedead.
But what I like is that guysover their 30s and guys in their
40s and guys in their 50s and60s no longer feel like they're
dead.
I think I hope that we get tothe point.
We're also in a different age,but I hope we've gotten to the
point in our lives where we getto the point in our lives where
we realize we do get better aswe get older and we don't behave
the way we do.
I always think it's funny thatthey think I mean, these are all
men clearly are in their 30s.
You know, I always think it'sfunny that Harold's only 32
(37:48):
because he looks a little bitolder than 32, if you ask me,
think it's funny that Harold'sonly 32, because he looks a
little bit older than 32, if youask me.
But that's one thing I likeabout the revival is that I
don't think they play up on thatas much.
But you know, youth culture,gay culture, is no different
than everybody else's culture,in that youth culture rules.
And here is this young boy.
Think about Cowboy for a minute, you know.
(38:09):
You think about a hustler inTimes Square.
You think of what's his namefrom Midnight Cowboy you think
of, like not Ratso Rizzo hewasn't the hustler but Joe Buck,
John Boyd's character and samekind of thing.
You know what I mean?
This is a kid who's trying tomake his way in life, who's
maybe not the smartest, doesn'thave the tools that these other
(38:30):
men do, and he's invited intothis viper's nest of a birthday
party and you know what he comesout?
He's the only one, basically,other than Donald, who doesn't
play the game, who doesn't comeout humiliated.
You know, bernard, emery,they're all well.
Hank and Larry don't either,because they have that kind of
(38:52):
come together moment.
But I mean he's just kind oflike observing it and actually
he comes out in the end in thebest because he's going to make
some money.
Yeah, he's got to go to bedwith Harold, but he's going to
make some money, which I thinkis interesting.
You know there was a scene thatwas cut that was not in the play
that they wanted to film inwhich there was a kiss between
Hank and Larry after they havetheir makeup and they go
(39:15):
upstairs to Michael's room andLarry is walking towards the
door and goes inside and Michaelsays what do you think is going
on up there to Alan?
And there was actually a scenethey filmed that the actors were
very ambivalent about.
At first they agreed to do itand then they didn't want to do
it.
And then William Friedkin saidlet's just shoot it and see if
we need it.
And it was a scene of themkissing and they filmed it and
(39:37):
they realized that they reallydidn't need it.
It was superfluous.
No, it would detract from it.
It was, yeah, it was notimportant to the story, but it's
interesting that these actorsagain so brave.
How brave were these actors Iwas saying earlier about and
they are, you know, matt Bomer,jonathan Bailey being so brave
for doing these roles.
(39:58):
Now, think about that in themid-60s.
How brave these actors were todo these parts.
And of these nine actors, sixidentified as gay men and six
and the director, robert Moore,of the play, died of AIDS.
Brad Shreve (40:17):
Actually Reuben Green died of a heart attack.
Tony Maietta (40:19):
Well, he disappeared.
Nobody knows where he is.
He's still alive.
Brad Shreve (40:23):
Oh, because I just— I have found very mixed stuff
on him.
So, yeah, you could be right,because I found that he's
missing.
I found that he died 20 yearsago.
I found that he died 10 yearsago.
So, yeah, you could be right,because I found that he's
missing.
I found that he died 20 yearsago.
I found that he died 10 yearsago.
So, yeah, I'll take your wordthat he's still missing.
Tony Maietta (40:35):
Yeah, william Friedkin said he hasn't heard
from Ruben Green.
Ruben Green plays Bernard.
He's the African-American, theonly African-American character,
and he was a model.
He wasn't an actor, he was amodel.
He did this part, he did acouple other TV shows and then
he distanced himself from thisfilm and kind of disappeared.
All the cast members thesurviving cast members say they
(40:58):
have had no contact with him,don't know where he is, what he
is.
So, if he's alive, keithPrentiss, robert Letourneau, all
died of AIDS.
That is one of the mostdevastating, devastating
(41:19):
legacies of this film.
I think it's terribly sad.
Brad Shreve (41:24):
I'll tell you, when I was looking at each of these
cast members and Kenneth NelsonI saw he died at 63 and 93 and,
like 93, 93 and 94 were the twobiggest years for AIDS deaths in
the United States.
Leonard Fry 49 and 88.
Keith Prentiss he was 52 and 92.
I started looking at these agesand looking at these years and
my heart was sinking because Iknew before, I saw how they died
(41:47):
, right and sure enough,everyone one of them died of
AIDS-related death and it justyou know I've shared before that
I was removed because of whereI lived and being in the closet
at the same time.
Aids was this thing that wenton elsewhere.
You know, it was that thingthat was out there that people
were talking about.
And to watch these charactersand as much as I say they
(42:12):
irritate the hell out of me Igrew to like these characters at
the same time and thenafterwards to see that these
actors, who I like theircharacters and I respected that
they were able to do this, tosee almost all of them died of
AIDS, it just it's devastating.
I was actually in tears.
I was in tears.
Tony Maietta (42:25):
It really is the gut punch epilogue to this film.
Brad Shreve (42:30):
Well, when my friends tell me that we're out
at that time, they say they lostalmost everybody they knew.
Well, you know that's kind ofan abstract thing it is.
Then I watch, I look at thismovie and see all these guys are
gone.
Tony Maietta (42:40):
I thought the same thing.
I'm like, oh, I thought that'ssuch an abstract concept.
And then you see it in front ofyou.
Brad Shreve (42:45):
Yeah, that's exactly what it was.
Tony Maietta (42:47):
But it was that six of the people in this
production we lost to thisplague and I think that, oh, you
know I do not agree with cancelculture at all.
Obviously, if somebody doessomething heinous, like breaks a
law, that's one thing.
That's not cancel culture.
(43:07):
When people talk about thisfilm, you know what's the very
famous saying those who ignore.
History are bound to repeat itIf people think that we are safe
in this world and in ourwonderful lives where we can get
married now and adopt childrenand have wonderful Sunday fun
(43:27):
days out partying, if they don'tthink that can change and we
can go back to a time in the 60swhen this play was put on,
they're crazy.
So that's why I say no.
You don't cancel the Boys inthe Band, you look at it and you
say pay attention, because wehave to fight for this every day
, otherwise we end up right backhere, and I feel the same way
(43:51):
with AIDS.
Obviously, I just got off AIDSlife cycle, so I'm a little bit
on my soapbox here.
People think AIDS is over.
It ain't over, it ain't over.
People are still getting HIVNow, maybe they're living with
it, but they have to take verystrong medications for the rest
of their lives.
I'm not going to turn this intoan HIV podcast either, but what
(44:12):
I'm saying is that that pissesme off when people say negative
things about this film and wantto forget about it and erase our
culture.
Those who ignore history aredoomed to repeat it, and these
men are a living example.
Brad Shreve (44:24):
I was reading in a Facebook group these very
similar statements being madeabout Philadelphia and how it's
so outdated, oh, absolutely.
Boy.
I jumped in on that.
I said look, I just talked toRon.
Let me tell you what I thinkGood, and I don't know if I set
them straight.
I will say one thing I'm reallyhappy happened.
You know, I'm sure a lot ofpeople were really upset that
(44:45):
Ryan Murphy and Netflix decidedto remake this film Because it
is a classic and people hate itwhen classics are remade.
But what I love about it isthey've reached an audience that
never would have gone andwatched this 1970 film.
I agree with you, they neverwould have looked at anything,
but they see, ooh, matt Bomber'sin it.
They would have looked atanything, but they see, oh, matt
bomber's in it and this guy'sthey're on, they're, they're on
netflix and they saw a film thatthey never would have seen
(45:06):
otherwise I agree with you.
Tony Maietta (45:07):
You know, and I have my issues with ryan murphy
oh, I do um and some of thethings he does, but I what I
love about that is that it was abroadway play first.
He put it on broadway where itfinally.
What a what a win.
Thank god that mark crowleylived.
To see his creation on Broadway, where it should have always
been, and then to win the TonyAward as Best Revival and then
(45:29):
to have it open to a wideraudience on Netflix is wonderful
.
You know, mark Crowley didn't.
After this he kind of went backto his dilettante life.
You know what I mean?
He was very much like Michael.
He was traveling from city tocity and the only place he was
ever happy was on the goddamnplane.
And it wasn't until NatalieWood came to his rescue once
again with Robert Wagner.
(45:49):
By now they were remarried andsaid would you come to LA and
work on Heart to Heart?
And he produced Heart to Heart.
And then, of course, thetragedy with Natalie Wood
happened.
And what's interesting aboutMark Crowley is Mark Crowley did
write a sequel.
Did you know there was a sequelto this play Boys in the Band?
No, I had no idea.
Yeah, uh he, he wrote a sequelin 2002 called the Men from the
(46:14):
Boys, and this is what's kind ofinteresting about that.
So he's he's written it.
Post AIDS the characters allget together for the funeral of
Larry.
Post AIDS the characters allget together for the funeral of
Larry, who hasn't died of AIDS,he's died of pancreatic cancer.
It had its premiere in SanFrancisco and it just never went
anywhere.
I think it's interesting thathe didn't address the AIDS
(46:37):
crisis.
If you're going to address that, maybe it's because of these
friends of his that he lost dueto the crisis and he didn't want
to revisit that so literally.
So maybe he made the pancreaticcancer.
But I find that reallyinteresting that he wrote the
sequel that totally did not dealwith the AIDS crisis.
Brad Shreve (46:55):
Interesting.
Yeah, that is reallyinteresting.
Tony Maietta (46:58):
I don't know.
Yeah, I don't know why hedidn't do that, but maybe again.
Maybe it's because he lostthese dear, dear people.
Brad Shreve (47:15):
Yeah, I don't know why he didn't do that, but maybe
again, maybe it's because helost these dear, dear people, do
you want to?
Was in a soap opera, I guess,did a little role at the time
and he went and cashed his checkthat he made at the soap opera
and he passed the theater and hesaw the line that he said was
it was way down going down thestreet with 500 people, yeah,
and he initially thought thatthe theater was burning down so
(47:38):
instantly.
It was popular then.
And then the budget for thisfilm is pretty amazing to me
because, given the time, thetopic and the time Now I'm
getting two different numbers.
Imdb said this movie costs $1.3million to make.
Every other source I see,including the movie database, is
$5.5 million.
Either of those numbers arepretty astounding when you
(48:00):
consider that MASH MASH was $3.5million to make, butch Cassidy
and the Sundance Kid $6 millionto make.
Now there were other biggerhits, but those were hits that
were made on what today we wouldconsider a very low budget and
this movie wasn't that farbehind really, especially at the
$5.5 million.
This is accurate, yeah, so thefact that it was given that much
(48:22):
money, I don't know where itcame from, you may know.
Tony Maietta (48:25):
It was Cinema Center Films which CBS owned,
which was a CBS company, Okay,but I saw those figures too and
I got to tell you I'm wondering5.5 million in 1970 was a shit
ton of money, yeah, For a oneset film.
This film takes place on oneset.
There were exteriors, fabulousexteriors of New York in the
(48:47):
late sixties on the Upper EastSide.
There was a shot in Julius'sbar in the West village which
they replicated in the RyanMurphy version, which I love,
and Mark Crowley's in the in theon the in the bar scene.
So if you watch it again, lookfor Mark Crowley, he's against
the window.
If you watch it again, look forMark Crowley, he's against the
window.
So, yeah, I find it difficultto believe that they spent $5.5
million on this movie.
Brad Shreve (49:09):
I agree with you and I will say that I looked at
five big hit movies from 1970.
And the IMDb dollar amountmatched all these other sites
verbatim.
This was the only one that Isaw huge discrepancy and I, like
you, I'm leaning more towardsthey used somebody's real patio
and then they built one set.
Yes, exactly, I am leaningtowards more believing the 1.3
(49:30):
million, which to me still is apretty big deal.
Tony Maietta (49:33):
These actors were not getting million-dollar
salaries either.
Brad Shreve (49:36):
What would have been just a very cheap indie
film that nobody would have sawnormally.
Tony Maietta (49:41):
Yeah, I would tend to agree with the other thing
and you know, because of itssubject matter, you know it had
very limited release.
Obviously it played in New York, it played in Los Angeles, it
played in the cities, but youknow it wasn't about to play in
Peoria, you know, or Omaha.
So it's the fact that thefigures I got of it it made $3.5
(50:02):
million, which seems a littlemore in line with, you know, if
it cost about a million, $2million to make, then it made a
small, small profit which was awin, you know, considering it
had such limited release.
But here's the interestingthing about this and I kind of
alluded to it before, about howthis movie was being filmed 20
(50:23):
blocks away from Stonewall.
At the same time this moviewent into production in 1969 as
a groundbreaking event.
By the time it was released andwe're talking about a year, it
was suddenly retrograde.
It was suddenly somebody calledit the gay Uncle Tom's cabin.
(50:45):
That is how much societychanged in the year between
beginning of this film and thetime it was released.
So this film really kind of gota bum rap in that respect.
And when they had the revivalof it, the very first revival in
1996, off-Broadway, which Ialso saw, ben Bradley began his
(51:08):
review with.
I guess it's okay to like theboys in the band again Because
it got a really bad rap, becausepeople didn't want to be pushed
back into the closet and somany people thought this film
represented the closet.
Well it did, because it takesplace in a time where the closet
was still very much a reality,and that's the criticism of this
film represented the closet?
Well it did, because it takesplace in a time where the closet
(51:29):
was still very much a reality,and that's the criticism of this
film.
I think you have to, as I saidbefore, you have to separate
that and you have to look atthis as the historic time
capsule of an era and hope toGod we don't ever go back to
that era again.
Brad Shreve (51:42):
I agree.
And you know what?
I can totally see why all thathappened.
This was just really bad timingfor this, one year for this
film.
Yeah, because this was filmedbefore Stonewall.
It came out after Stonewall.
All of a sudden we're out andwe're not all miserable and
we're not all psychopaths.
And you know, nobody was sayingwe're just like you, because
everybody wanted to emphasizethey weren't, but they were
(52:03):
still okay.
But when I say everybody, I'malways generalizing.
I could see why somebody atthat point were like, okay,
we're getting out of that.
And now, oh, look there, we'remiserable again.
I could see why somebody atthat point would say, oh, why
did why no?
Tony Maietta (52:19):
Yeah.
Brad Shreve (52:20):
I can understand why that happened.
It was bad timing.
Tony Maietta (52:23):
It was.
It was bad timing, it was.
It was unfortunate, and thatcould be another reason why
these actors' careers didn'texactly skyrocket the way that
you think they would have whenyou're a part of this
groundbreaking film.
Think of Virginia Woolf.
They all got nominated forOscars for Virginia Woolf.
This movie got nominated for noOscars.
Now, I'm not saying that Oscarsnecessarily equate with a good
(52:45):
film, but you know they're agood barometer for it.
And there were no Oscarnominations for this film and
this film just kind of went away, you know, it just kind of died
.
It was that, the urban myth ofthis.
You know of this, not thisterrible film, but this film
that paints us in such a badlight.
You know of this, not thisterrible film, but this film
(53:06):
that paints us in such a badlight.
And what I love is with therevivals in 96 and 2018 and the
Netflix.
And then they just recentlyreleased this film on DVD in a
beautiful, pristine condition.
The colors are gorgeous.
This film is being looked at aswith the respect it deserves.
This film deserves the respectof every single gay man, every
(53:26):
single queer person who watchesit, because it was the first.
It might not be the best, butit said it before.
Anybody else had the guts tosay it and put it out there for
all the world to see.
So for that reason I willalways applaud Boys in the Band,
always.
Brad Shreve (53:45):
And I will now get to you what my feeling is,
because I told you what myfeeling was about this movie
before I watched it.
Uh-oh, and I said I'm going towatch it with an open mic.
Gird your loins, people.
No, actually it's good.
I still find it disturbing.
It was much more disturbingthan I anticipated.
I thought, okay, Okay, you knowwhat I was thinking in the past
.
No, it hurt me a lot more thanI expected.
But I have a huge respect forthis movie and I didn't know how
(54:07):
to verbalize it until I read itin.
Maybe Washington Blade I don'tknow where I read this that what
this movie did.
Before this movie, gays werealways depicted as the
psychopath or the depressed, thesick individual.
They were sick, Right, and thismovie was the first, or at
least the first, to garnerattention.
(54:28):
That said, we're not gaybecause we're sick.
We're sick because we're gaybecause of how society treats us
.
Ooh, If we're unhappy, it'sbecause of society, not because
of who we are or what we are.
Tony Maietta (54:40):
That's a beautiful , that's beautifully put.
Brad, I was almost going tohave a quick comeback Like why
don't you not tell me about it?
But I like that that's, that'svery, that's very beautifully
put.
Yeah, it's very true, it isvery true.
This movie may not deserve,this movie may not receive, uh,
the glory your love as helldeserves your respect.
Brad Shreve (55:02):
Exactly, it's not a movie.
I want to sit down and justrelax and watch.
It's not that at all.
Tony Maietta (55:06):
No.
Brad Shreve (55:06):
But I do have a huge respect for the film,
absolutely.
Tony Maietta (55:09):
And I don't think any film can ask for more than
that.
Brad Shreve (55:12):
Yeah.
Tony Maietta (55:13):
Well, I think that's great.
I think we just did the boys inthe band.
How about that?
I think we did.
Thanks everybody.
We still need an ending.
Oh, I think I always wanted tomention okay, I should have
(55:33):
mentioned this before.
We have a playlist on spotifythat brad has created and I add
to uh for all the songs that Ican't sing on this podcast.
Um, you can go to our spotifyto going hollywood uh podcast
and listen to some of thewonderful songs that we talk
about from a lot of these moviesthat we discuss and we pick and
choose.
Brad Shreve (55:44):
I was putting a whole playlist and I realized,
no, no, not all of that's good.
So we do pick and choose fromthe films.
Tony Maietta (55:49):
You were.
I looked at the one you did forFellow Travelers.
I was like Jesus man.
Brad Shreve (55:53):
How many songs do you have?
I took all those out.
Tony Maietta (55:54):
I took only the ones that had vocals in them and
don't forget to rate and reviewus, please.
Oh, one last thing Thank you toall the people who have rated
and reviewed us, given us fivestars.
That's really lovely.
You know, brad and I.
It may not be hard to believe,but Brad and I have other jobs
that we do.
We're both incredibly busypeople and this is truly this
(56:18):
podcast for me and I hope Ispeak for Brad is truly a labor
of love, and to have yourpositive feedback and to have
your encouragement means theworld to us, and I just want to
say thank you for that, foreverybody who's taken the time
to give us a five-star rating orto write a review.
It's fabulous.
So thank you very much,everybody, and for listening
always.
Brad Shreve (56:39):
Podcasting is a lonely business because we sit
here and we talk on microphones.
We see each other, but then itgoes out in the world and we may
see people are listening to itor whatever.
But that's it.
Unless you let us know, you'rejust numbers and we don't want
that and we appreciate it.
I don't care about the numbers.
I want to hear what yourthoughts are and actually
there's a way you can, if you'dlike to tell what your opinions
(57:01):
are of the movies and ourthoughts on them.
In the show notes of everyepisode it says text us your
opinion or comment.
Text it to us.
We can't respond, but we willread it to you on the air, so
make sure you tell us your name.
Tony Maietta (57:13):
Yeah, and if you want to give us a suggestion of
a film to watch you know we werejust talking about what our
film choices would be let usknow.
I mean, that would be a lot offun.
Yes, thanks everybody.
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