July 20, 2021 • 55 mins
Ep:093 Chris Holcombe is an author of LGBTQ+ historical crime fiction. The Double Vice is the first novel in his Hidden Gotham series, which showcases New York’s lively but criminally under-represented queer world of the 1920s. He is also an award-winning songwriter, winning “Best Folk Song” at the 2009 Hollywood Music in Media Awards, as well as an accomplished brand strategist in marketing and advertising. He lives with his husband in New York, where he is hard at work on the next Hidden Gotham novel The Blind Tiger.
Due to unavoidable circumstances, the live episode announced for Saturday, July 24th is cancelled. The show will be back on its normal schedule with its next release on Tuesday, July 27th.
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Chris Holcombe's Website
The Double Vice by Chris Holcombe on Amazon
Chris on Instagram
The Hanged Man by A.R. Fiano
Paul Rudd Video of the Week
Brad Shreve's Website
The three year run of Queer Writers of Crime was fantastic but no new episodes are being made. Therefore, some links may not work. Be sure to check out Brad's new podcast, Queer We Are, where he interviews LGBTQ celebrities, athletes, activists, politicians, and more. You can find it at queerweare.com
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Episode Transcript
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Brad Shreve (00:00):
In this episode, hear what rating Justene gives
to her recommendation, a novelthat includes Nazis and the
occult.
And Chris Holcombe is my guestwho talks about The Double Vice
a novel that will transport youinto 1920s, Greenwich Village,
and Harlem.
I'm Brad Shreve and you'relistening to Queer Writers of
(00:21):
Crime featuring LGBTQ authors ofmystery, suspense, and thriller
novels.
Before we begin, I wanted to letyou all know that Justene is
such a trooper.
(00:42):
I don't think she's ever misseda recording session She has a
lot going on and I told her,don't worry, I'll wing it.
And despite everything going on.
She is here.
Justene (00:54):
Hi, Brad.
You know, I don't like to letpeople down.
Brad Shreve (00:57):
And you didn't let me down.
I'm grateful to see you here,
Justene (01:00):
Well at least hear me.
Yes.
I didn't want to let thelisteners down either.
I like to believe people want meon here.
Brad Shreve (01:07):
Trust me based on the emails and such, they do.
Yes.
Justene (01:10):
Oh, good.
See, I fished for thatcompliment and it came here.
Brad Shreve (01:13):
I got an, a quick announcement before we get to
your recommendation.
Justene (01:18):
Okay.
Brad Shreve (01:19):
This Saturday, July 24th, we are going to be
live for the very first time.
It's a loose network of queerpodcast, called Pride48.
And there will be a live showsall weekend.
Big Gay Fiction podcast is partof the network, but they won't
be on live.
Unfortunately.
But our friends, Mike and Kyleover Gayish will be, they're
(01:41):
going to have a live show thatweekend.
Our show Queer Writers of Crimewill be on Saturday, July 24th,
3:00 PM.
Eastern time 12 noon Pacifictime.
Justene (01:53):
Well, you know, Brad, when it's live, I can't really
run it around my schedule.
I, I won't actually show up thatweek, but I think that the
surprise group placement willreally please people
Brad Shreve (02:07):
I think so too.
In fact, I'm going to tell himwhen Justine told me, there's no
way she could do this liveepisode.
She said, this is the personwho's going to.
And it wasn't like a, this isthe person I want to do it.
It was, this is the personthat's going to do it.
So you'll see next Saturdaylistening.
And you'll find out who theguest book recommendation-dur
(02:30):
is.
guess that's a word.
Justene (02:31):
Yeah, Yeah
Brad Shreve (02:32):
it has now.
It is now.
And don't worry.
We'll will be back on again nextTuesday as well.
Got some different things goingon then.
Justene (02:41):
but you can tell him who the guests on the live
performance.
Brad Shreve (02:45):
Yes, it's going to be Marko Realmonte
Justene (02:48):
Yes,
Brad Shreve (02:49):
He is back.
Is this, is this the second timehe's been on or the third?
Justene (02:53):
this is the second time he's been on, but it's,
what's his third book.
Brad Shreve (02:57):
Okay.
It's the second time he's beenon.
And I will tell you this.
He has some big news.
Justene (03:02):
Well, there's a lot of teasing with this episode
people, you know, and I gottasay the people should not think
we're over-hyping and I thinkpeople are going to be very
pleased on both the accounts.
Brad Shreve (03:12):
Let me just say one thing you'll listen on
Tune-in Radio, which they havean app, also a website.
I will leave the link in theshow notes.
I probably could have not saidthat they would have figured it
out on their own, please listenin It's your turn, Justene, go
for it.
Justene (03:29):
All right.
So I have been looking for thisseries for a long time.
Um, I mean, I remembered enoughabout it and how great it was,
but I couldn't quite come upwith the author or the, or the
name of the series.
and I have finally found that Iwent back so far in my Kindle
history that I have finallyfound the series and.
(03:50):
This series started in May 22nd,2012, and it has four books in
it.
And the last one came out onMarch 5th, 2016.
So I bought the first book onMarch 21st, 2016, and I bought
the fourth book on March 22nd,2016.
(04:11):
and I bought them as I finishedthem.
So you can see just how much Iloved this series.
Brad Shreve (04:17):
Yeah, it sounds like you liked it.
Okay.
Justene (04:20):
Yeah, I liked it.
Okay.
But this author, unfortunately,I haven't found anything he's
written since then.
which is too bad.
I don't know if he really hasput stuff out under another pen
name or not, but, it's anexcellent series.
Well, let me tell you about it.
It's
Brad Shreve (04:34):
well, who is the author?
Justene (04:36):
the author is Alex Fiano.
The first book in the series wasput out and, or a A.R.
Fianno.
It is extremely well-written.
It's getting my glowingrecommendation.
Gabriel's World is the name ofthe series.
The first book is called TheHanged Man, The Hanged Man, H A
N G E D man.
(04:58):
And It's tied in with the taro.
The hanged man is a tarot cardand each of the chapters starts
out with a description of anapplicable tarot card.
Gabriel is a privateinvestigator.
The book starts with him havingjust gotten out of jail.
(05:18):
He was arrested for attacking aReverend and this I'm sure this
fictional Reverend I'm sure willbe familiar to many.
The Reverend led a church who,was protesting that the funeral
of one of Gabriel's friends.
So this was a military veteranand the church members showed up
(05:42):
and were protesting outside herfuneral, calling her a dyke and
he left the funeral, came overand punched the Reverend.
It was a highly well covered inthe press, rather famous
incident in this book.
And, he is, let out with the,and there's a called ACD and
that part of the country, whereif you stay out of trouble for
(06:04):
six months, they'll drop thecharges.
So he's really trying to stayout of trouble, um, which means
he's, he doesn't want to getcaught being in trouble.
he's still causing trouble.
A lawyer picks him up, from, youknow, picks him up in a limo
from his, the courthouse stepsand drives him back to New York.
(06:26):
And along the way the lawyersays he wants to hire him.
The lawyer is on the board of afoundation, a Jewish studies
foundation, and he wants to hirehim because one of the board
members cause connected to aNazi and while the lawyer knows
this, the lawyer has no proof.
(06:46):
Um, and wants Gabriel to findthe proof About an hour after
the lawyer drops him off thelawyer disappears there's video
of the lawyer having coffee withsome man in a cap and dark
glasses, Raymond gets sick.
The lawyer gets sick.
The, the, the skies man takesthem out of there.
(07:08):
And the next time Raymond isseen, he is found in his bed at
his apartment.
apparently dead by autofixation, accident, which
Gabriel can see a stage.
And Gabriel, has, has brokeninto the lawyers apartment while
the lawyer has been missing.
(07:30):
And he knows the lawyer wasn'tin there and he knows the lawyer
hasn't been there for three daysdead.
the police of course suspect himof the crime.
that's part of why he has toinvestigate.
Raymond who's the lawyer, hispartner has hired, Gabriel to
prove that it was a homicidebecause his partner wants to,
take away the reputationdamaging of the suicide or the
(07:55):
accident of auto eroticfixation.
So he's, he's got some money tofollow this up.
He's got money for experts inthe law.
his investigation takes him intoNazi secret societies and it
takes him into, the small, cultorganizations that were involved
with the Nazi secret societies.
(08:16):
And he gets in tangled in avariety of conspiracy theories.
He likes conspiracty theories.
trait I share with him.
He doesn't believe most of them.
But this conspiracy theory, hasa basis, in fact, so they spent
a lot of time researching.
He ends up hooking up with a,news reporter, a highly refined,
(08:41):
Indian gentlemen, and also onthe scene is his former
boyfriend who.
Shows up at just the right timeto give him just the right help
and also to try to seduce himagain into the relationship.
So he's got a lot going on.
There's a lot of competingthreads in this book.
(09:02):
all of them are well-developedall of them.
They fit together like puzzlepieces.
There's nothing left hangingever.
and it's so, and it's a wild,wild ride.
Very well-written has theglowing recommendation.
And I think people will really,really like this series.
There's no paranormal in it.
It's just an exploration of the,organizations that were
(09:24):
researching the occult andtrying to use the occult to help
the Nazis It's a great book andit's a great series.
I read it in literally a day anda half.
and it's stuck with me thiswhole time.
And I finally dug far enoughback that I could pull it out
for people and I've, re-read thefirst book in it and it holds up
(09:44):
as well as I remember.
Brad Shreve (09:46):
And I think you have some stuff from ReQueered
Tales today.
Justene (09:49):
I do.
We are publishing our firstoriginal book.
It is by Felice, Picano it iscalled Betrothal at Usk..
It's a science fiction book.
It is the second book in thetrilogy, which Drylands End was
published back in.
nineties, we republished itearlier this year, and this one
(10:13):
of his most critically acclaimedbooks and people who read it,
I've always asked him to, youknow, when is he going to
publish the sequel?
And it's finally found a home atReQueered Tales.
It's our first original book andis now available for pre-order.
It's called The Betrothal atUsk.
U S K.
Brad Shreve (10:32):
Good job to y'all for getting a first published
book.
That's awesome.
Justene (10:36):
it is awesome.
It's terrific.
Brad Shreve (10:38):
I think it will be the first of many.
Justene (10:40):
Well, let me just say first published books are a lot
harder to, to get out thenrepublished books.
So
Brad Shreve (10:49):
Well, let me just say it's the first of many, if
that's what you want.
Justene (10:53):
well, uh, you know, we we've, we've got more on the
line and I think people willenjoy them.
And when it comes to republishbooks, we're releasing the, the
next book in a Lev Raphael'sNick Hoffman series.
And that's going to be onpre-order in the next week or
two,
Brad Shreve (11:11):
Sounds great.
thank you Justine.
And I will talk to you next weekand thank you.
Thank you for making it in yourschedule.
Justene (11:18):
all right.
Good to see you again, Brad.
Brad Shreve (11:43):
So Chris, are you all Jake for the interview?
Chris Holcombe (11:46):
I am all Jake for the interview?
Brad Shreve (11:48):
one thing I loved about your novel.
The Double Vice of idioms andslangs from the 1920s.
And I have this thing writerslike to sometimes someone will
be speaking in a foreignlanguage.
you don't know what they'retalking about.
It's just this sentence there totry and make it sound authentic
or they'll use slang from a timeperiod where you have no clue as
(12:13):
to what they're saying.
And what I really liked aboutyour book is the way the word is
used in your sentences.
You know exactly what they'retalking about.
I guess, Jake is common still inAustralia.
I had to look it up, but It'sdefinitely fallen out of favor
in the United States.
So I read it and I knew rightaway, it meant everything's cool
or everything's fine.
The blurb for The Double Vicesays, it's the shadowy world of
(12:35):
drag queens, caberetperformances, gangsters,mob
molls,, lesbian lawyers, and amysterious but dangerous
baroness of business.
And if that's not enough, Idon't know what it is, and that
is not a lie.
It's all in there.
Let's go ahead.
And with your introduction,Chris Holcomb is an author of
(12:56):
LGBTQ plus historical crimefiction.
The Double Vice it's, the firstnovel in his Hidden Gotham
Series, which showcases newYork's lively, but criminally
under representative queer worldof the 1920s.
He is also an award winningsongwriter, winning Best Folk
Song at the 2009 Hollywood musicin media awards, as well as an
(13:20):
accomplished brand strategist inmarketing and advertising.
He lives with his husband in NewYork.
I'm going to get away from thebook for a second here because
something just jumped out at me.
So you won an award for a song.
And you are a brand strategistand marketing and advertising
(13:40):
any chance that you've writtenjingles?
Chris Holcombe (13:44):
I wish, you know, the jingles are no longer
in fashion, hardly anymore,which is so sad to me.
because I would have loved towrite like, you know, for Double
mint, you remember the DoubleMint commercials and, and
whatnot.
but I, funny enough, myundergrad was Berkeley college.
And I did take jingle writing,with a guy named John Aldridge
(14:04):
who wrote all the jingles.
I think he wrote, mostly forMcDonald's.
Um, so I did study it.
I never got a chance to, uh,pull it through sadly, but you
know, if there's an opportunityto write a jingle, I will do it.
Brad Shreve (14:17):
it's funny that it's fallen out of favor because
they definitely stuck in yourhead.
Chris Holcombe (14:23):
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
They totally worked.
but yeah, it's, it's funny howthings kind of worked out, but
Brad Shreve (14:30):
I hope you get the day to write that jingle.
Chris Holcombe (14:33):
Me too.
Brad Shreve (14:34):
I gotta say I really tried hard not to get
overly excited when I'm talkingto an author, because I just
like to talk about the book andI.
don't want to make one guest,feel more welcomed than the
other, I'm going to do it.
There's I'm a break.
My rule this time.
I love The Double Vice.
Justene did a bookrecommendation for it.
And when I told her you aregoing to be on the show, I
(14:57):
sometimes I don't tell her whothe guest is.
Just not to keep it a secret.
We just don't talk about it.
By mentioned you are goingbeyond.
And she said, I loved this bookand now I know why.
Chris Holcombe (15:09):
well, thank you so much.
Brad Shreve (15:10):
Well, you're very welcome.
And a huge part of it is I lovehim.
I'm a big history nut, but I'mnot a history nut in a sense.
I could care less about all thewars and the battles and the
royalty.
I want to know what everydayfolks were doing as a general
rule.
And that's really what you gotinto you got into, as you said,
uh, Part of history.
(15:31):
That's not represented enoughfor not told enough.
And, and that's the kind ofhistory I'm really into.
I studied two years and this wason my own time.
It wasn't for, for college oranything for two years, I did an
in-depth study on the settlingof the Midwest and the city
planning and real estate scamsthat were going on.
(15:52):
that's how much I liked thoseeveryday occurrences, more than.
The big ones that you read aboutin the history books.
So you took me there And I'mgoing to say, I'll read a book.
I enjoy reading it, but I knowI'm reading a novel about that
era and I've read novels aboutthe Victorian era and the
sixties and the fifties.
(16:13):
And you're novel takes place in1926.
And I wasn't reading a novelabout 1926.
You took me in to 1926.
Like I felt like a participant,
Chris Holcombe (16:27):
Well, Thank you.
I've worked really hard at that.
I worked really hard on thatbecause, um, one of the things
that I've actually not a bighistorical crime fiction reader
myself, um, I actually readmore, present day.
Although some of the stuff Iread now is like take place in
the eighties and early nineties.
So I guess it could behistorical fiction nowadays.
Brad Shreve (16:47):
Yeah.
Chris Holcombe (16:48):
But I wanted it to read, like it was written in
present day.
that was kind of my approach.
So all I did was when I was on acertain day and a certain scene,
I would read, articles in theNew York times from that day,
articles from that week of thenew Yorker, which I've got
access to all the archives thatgo all the way back to the
1920s.
And that was it.
(17:08):
And I didn't want to put in.
Yeah, wink, wink, nudge, nudgeirony about, we know what's
going to happen a hundred yearsfrom now.
I didn't want to do that.
I wanted it to feel verypresent.
So I'm very pleased to hear thatfrom you, that I took you in
there.
Cause that was my intent.
I wanted it to feel not like youwere reading something
historical, but that you werereading something as if it was
happening right now in the senseof you were in that narrative.
(17:32):
So, that was, that was my intentand I'm glad that I pulled it
off.
Brad Shreve (17:36):
I really liked the way you.
made it fit in that I didn'thave to wonder what they meant,
but I will tell you, it threw meout of the story at times,
because I was like, wow, I'venever heard that term before.
And I knew exactly what we'retalking about, but I'm like, I
want to find out the backgroundof that, so I quickly got on the
computer and I'd look it up andfind out, when it started and
(17:57):
how long it lasted and where itcame from.
Um, it's obvious you did a lotof that research.
Chris Holcombe (18:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.
absolutely.
I I've had a lot of differentslang dictionaries.
I even found a slang.
That was written by CabCalloway, that talked about, so
you could learn how to talk hepas it were, which I guess would
mean hip nowadays, but, uh, butit was, it was really fun to
look at and, and find some ofthese terms.
I actually, on my Instagram, Ifeature a word Wednesday where
(18:25):
we go through a couple of seriesof words or phrases, just kind
of like show it off and educatedsome of the more, Uh, out there
ones that I wouldn't necessarilyput in the book, because it
would take you too far out ofthe story where you'd go, what
in the world is that?
So there are some reallyinteresting ones, but I was
surprised at how much of theslang that was developed in the
twenties we still use today.
(18:45):
It's really interesting to seehow some things kind of carried
over into present.
I think bee's knees lasted for along time, um, before it quickly
kind of fell out of fashion, butit lasted for awhile, And a
couple of others, but, I think.
like dime notes And nickelnotes.
Brad Shreve (19:00):
I think people still know bee's knees, but it's
more in a kind of a joking manthat they'll say it.
Not
Chris Holcombe (19:05):
Yeah.
Brad Shreve (19:06):
you as back in the past,
Chris Holcombe (19:08):
That's that's true.
That's very true.
Brad Shreve (19:10):
we're going To talk about your book, and we're
going to talk about yourprotagonist Dash Parker, but I
want to start from the verybeginning of the book.
You had notes from the authorand in it, you kind of wanted to
explain the slang terms you weregoing to be using.
and that were commonly used atthe time.
And, and you mentioned that.
(19:31):
Heterosexual, homosexual,bisexual word, not terms used
then.
And that terms that today wouldbe offensive like fairies and
pansies weren't necessarilyoffensive back then.
Can you speak a little on thatside?
Cause you, you said you were,you kind of used, I think it was
fairies that said, you said wasyou as much more than you did in
(19:54):
the book because he didn't wantto.
be offensive, but
Chris Holcombe (19:57):
Yeah.
Brad Shreve (19:57):
talk a little bit more about that.
Chris Holcombe (19:59):
Sure, absolutely.
So, you know, one of the thingswhen you're looking at, um, and
we're talking about the termsthat the homosexual community or
the queer community, excuse me,would be referred to.
and have referred to themselvesas, and back then a lot of that
identity or a lot of those termswere based upon gender
appearance.
And so I wanted to make surethat people understood that
(20:19):
because nowadays obviously, youknow, with the conversation
about like, with non-binary andgender nonconforming and gender
queer, you know, this is, thisis going to be a little bit
alien, I think, um, to, to newertypes of readers.
So I wanted to let them givethem a heads up that that was
occurring.
But then I also wanted to makesure that I didn't.
Use terms that would be wildlyoffensive today, even if they
(20:43):
weren't offensive back then.
because I didn't want to takethe reader out of the story and
I didn't want them to, get hurtby it.
that's something that I didn'twant to do at the end of the
day.
I'm an entertainer.
and I wanted people to beentertained while reading the
book.
So I that's, when I kind of madethe distinction between, the
terms fairy versus pansy, causepansy is not even really used a
(21:03):
lot nowadays.
I don't think I've ever reallyheard it in a long, long time.
Um, except, you know, referenceto the flowers.
and by the way, they're toughflowers.
I, I think it's ironic that, youknow, pansy was, later in the
forties and fifties useddisparagingly, but really they
are.
They are toughest healthflowers, to be honest.
So I find that really funny, butyou know, but you know, uh, drag
Queens back then, if they werereferred to in newspapers.
(21:26):
so if you read the back issuesof the New York times, you'll
see them referred to as femaleimpersonators are male
impersonators.
So we're talking about dragQueens And drag Kings,
colloquially, uh, they would bereferred to as bull daggers or b
ulls, for the women.
And there were also referred toas fairies or pansies.
In terms of the men.
And so I figured since fairystill used today as a slur, in
(21:50):
some respects, um, I wanted todo downplay that word and kind
of dial up pansy and I couldjustify it historically because
in the thirties, that was whatwas going to be rising to
prominence in terms of the pansycraze, before the moralists came
in and, kind of wiped it out.
Brad Shreve (22:07):
Yeah, well, I think fairy is one of those
things where two gay men cancall each other a fairy and book
straight people referred to asnormals.
They're not allowed to causefairies.
It's a very big difference.
Chris Holcombe (22:20):
a big difference.
Brad Shreve (22:22):
Any word, it really comes down to how it's
used.
That makes the difference.
Chris Holcombe (22:27):
absolutely.
Brad Shreve (22:29):
so a lot of this stuff I really want again too,
because there's so much history,in this novel that I just found
a lot of fun.
Let's just go ahead and startwith the story.
Uh, should we talk about thestory or should we start talking
about Dash.
Chris Holcombe (22:41):
Yeah, absolutely.
Dash Parker, is our hero.
He is a fallen Manhattansocialite.
he grew up in privilege.
He grew up in.
The, uh, the gilded townhouses,and the early 19 hundreds.
and he is an unusual characterfor the time because, uh, he
recognized his sexuality asbeing something different.
(23:02):
he actually fell in love withhis family's tailor.
Um, uh, Spanish Taylor.
Oh my what, what a, what acontroversy?
actually, excuse me, he wasCatalin not Spanish Catalin um,
I would get smacked.
Um, but for the differences, butyeah, he, he fell in love and
he, was inspired by his, youngersister, um, who died in the 1918
(23:27):
flu epidemic back then.
and, uh, his sister hadrecognized who he was, I think
long before Dash.
did and said you should liveyour life your way.
And so spurred on by the deathof his sister, he decided to go
down to the village Greenwichvillage, which was a Queer Haven
at the time still is.
and, uh, he was going to try tolive his life that way.
(23:50):
And, a couple of twists andturns have happened and he's
opened up a speakeasy behind,uh, the tailor shop, called
pinstripes because we can't, wegotta love a good pun we in the
queer community love our puns.
So I had to bring that through,um, and, uh, he's opened the
speakeasy and, uh, trying tolive a life of good music, good
gin, and good men.
Brad Shreve (24:11):
I love the speakeasy behind the tailor
shop.
I thought that was awesome.
the only thing I've ever seenfrom that era that I can think
of is I, for a short time, Iworked for a real estate agent.
He would have like two openinghouses at the same time.
And I would work one of themwhile he worked the other.
And one was in a mansion in anarea here called Los Feliz which
(24:33):
a lot of people outside LA I'venever heard of.
It's there, there's somebeautiful mansions there.
And one was this mansion.
That was absolutely incredible.
And you go down to the basement.
And everything's normal, butthen all of a sudden can turn
these, things around and there'sthis hidden door and open up the
wall and you have a bar actualbartender behind the bar.
And I was thinking of that housethe whole time I'm reading about
(24:56):
this speakeasy and having to getin.
So that was a lot of fun.
So tell us Dash, he's runningthis speakeasy, but that's not
what all the stories about whathappens here.
Chris Holcombe (25:08):
We open with, uh, an outsider has found his
way into the club and by outsideor meeting someone who is not
Queer very obviously.
and during this time period, itwasn't illegal.
the law was a degeneratedisorderly conduct, and that was
passed around, I believe, 19 24,19 25.
Um, so, dash could not only bearrested for running a
(25:32):
speakeasy, which.
Was against, uh, the, uh, theVolstead act, uh, commonly known
as prohibition, but he couldalso be arrested for, this
degeneracy.
and so there's this one who isthis man who is in the tennis
club, looking for a drag queen.
He is looking specifically for adrag queen that it's very
obvious that he does not havegood intentions.
And so Dash is going to try tofind a way to kind of protect,
(25:53):
uh, this person.
And it turns out that thisperson is as looking for the
drag queen to get to hisbrother, his brother named Karl
um, Karl Mueller is, uh, the boywho was in the club, Walter
Mueller is the outsider or thebluenose, someone who is a
Teetotaller believes inprohibition.
and Dash is going to try to hideKarl from Walter because he has
(26:15):
been there.
he feels a kinship with Karl assomeone who was a young queer
man who is, you know, trying tolive his life and is trying to
get out from under a veryoppressive family.
And, so he tries to hide them.
He hides them with a friend ofhis, in Harlem.
And so dash is, uh, Very uniquefor the time period.
(26:36):
He is friends with people ofdifferent races.
He is friends with someone whowas an African-American woman,
who was a performer in Harlem,and he tries to hide Carl up
there.
And of course it all goes wrong.
Cause this is a crime story.
So nothing ever goes right in astraight line, quite in a
straight line.
and unfortunately, Carl is,murdered.
(26:57):
And so now we've got a situationwhere Dashville is very guilty,
um, because he tried to protectthis boy and he couldn't.
Um, but then Walter comes backaround the brother.
And blackmails him and hisfriends to find the drag queen
that he was originally lookingfor.
because he's going to enact alittle bit of vengeance.
And so now we've got, uh, dualsided story where we want to one
(27:19):
figure out what happens to Carlcause Dashville is responsible,
but then we've also got to getout from underneath Walter, this
blackmailer.
So it's a, the reluctantdetective times too, and trying
to figure out a way around this,and, following, The path of
Carlos' life and figuring outwho was in his life and all the
(27:39):
people involved and, people arenot quite what they seem as we
find out, um, in several partsof this story.
Brad Shreve (27:46):
Well, one thing I found interesting about
pinstripe since we'respecifically talking about dash
right now, is that was broughtup that, well, actually, let me
go back one step back.
You talked about Carl or Walterwhile looking for his brother.
Said he was looking for a pansy,not a drag queen.
Chris Holcombe (28:04):
Yeah, that's correct
Brad Shreve (28:06):
You said he was looking for a drag queen?
No, he wasn't.
He was looking for a pansy.
Chris Holcombe (28:09):
for a pansy.
Brad Shreve (28:09):
So again, you stayed there true to the time,
but now going back to her, whatI was about to say is.
Pinstripes.
What I found interesting is ithad a lot of things, morally
reprehensible about it.
First of all, it was a speakeasyto begin with.
Second of all, it happened to bea club for queer folk at that
(28:31):
time.
And then it was brought up thatthe other thing that was immoral
and illegal was that the bandthat played.
They were black.
Chris Holcombe (28:43):
Yeah.
Highly,
Brad Shreve (28:46):
I want to hear a little bit of more about that.
As you know, we always think ofthe south as being prejudice.
And I lived in North Carolinaand trust me, there were a lot
of class members I went toschool with that were in the
Klan.
So it's, it is very prevalent inthe south, but people think it
never happens in the north ornever did.
Can you talk about that duringthat era?
Chris Holcombe (29:07):
Sure, absolutely.
I mean, this is like a lot ofAmerican cities at that time for
it were still somewhatsegregated.
So, you know, you had Harlem,which was where a good majority
of the black population lived aswell as the Italian population
and, other nationalities aswell.
But, for example, The timesquares, Broadway theaters,
(29:31):
black patrons can only be in thebalcony.
They could never be on thefloor.
So the audiences could not mixthe cotton club, which is a
famous Harlem, nightclub thatI'm sure a lot of your listeners
have heard of.
the performers were all, peopleof color, but the audience was
all white.
And the club that you know was,being drawn in, you know, for
(29:52):
like Louis Armstrong and dukeEllington.
So there was a lot ofsegregation and a lot of laws
against it.
I believe.
the cabaret act, was somethingthat was passed that really kind
of put the kibosh on a lot ofinterracial mixing.
Now, what was interesting aboutprohibition is that.
It drove a lot of thingsunderground.
And so people started do alittle mixing and matching as it
(30:16):
were.
Um, and so a lot of, whites thatwere called downtowners would go
up to Harlem because it was, thekind of taboo thing to do.
they actually called it.
You would go slumming up there.
and so you w you would actuallykind of sell tickets to kind of
do that, so they could go tocertain clubs, but there were
clubs that would start to mixaudiences.
and, uh, there were clubs thatalso started to mix band
(30:39):
members.
You know, I think what was here,but was really illegal, was not
only was, the band, black, butactually two members.
If I remember right, it was amale.
Of white and black and thatcertainly wasn't.
On the stage.
So, you know, it's reallyinteresting.
I think, it's surprised a lot ofpeople, a lot of readers have
commented on that, that theydidn't recognize that even
(31:00):
though it was New York city andit was the north that
segregation still occurred.
Right.
and was not necessarily asviolent as the south was.
you know, especially during thetwenties, we got the rise of the
KKK.
We had the rise of the Jim Crowlaws and everything, but Yeah,
it, it wasn't, um, it wasn't theutopia that most people would,
(31:22):
would think of.
And so actually a lot of thegreat migration that, occurred.
a lot of blacks were reallydisappointed when they got here
because they still facedepression.
They still face lower wages.
Harlem, believe it or not was,predominantly white before, the,
the African-American communitystarted moving, moving in.
And so all the whites fled andthe buildings which were owned
(31:44):
predominantly by whitelandlords, jacked the rent.
So that way people had to cramin more, then it's into the
buildings, then the whitetenants have done it.
And then of course, people spunit and go, we'll see, it's the
slum, but yet it's the slumbecause of the white landlords
who basically break the system.
So.
There was a lot of that stillgoing on in that day.
(32:05):
So I wanted to try to kind ofcapture how it was still taboo
and to show kind of what aboundary breaker dash Parker is
and the fact that he was willingto kind of look beyond the norms
of his day.
not just in terms of his ownsexuality, but also in terms of
race.
Brad Shreve (32:22):
Yeah, it's really surprising to me to hear that
Los Angelesduring that era wasvery conservative.
Hollywood was an ultraconservative neighborhood.
In fact, the Hollywood sign, thehistory behind the Hollywood
sign.
It used to be, say Hollywoodland.
And I think a lot of people knowthat it used to be Hollywood
land and Hollywood land was atthe bottom of the hill, a
(32:44):
housing development for whitesonly.
And I've seen the ads forHollywood land.
Yeah.
Without saying it, it was nothidden it basically said you'll
get away from the Mexicans andthe black folk without really
saying that it was justblatantly obvious that that's
what they were talking about.
So I have gotten used to livingin Los Angeles is as long as I
(33:07):
have at this point, I've gottenused to realizing that this was
it pretty conservative city?
The state itself is prettyconservative, but I wasn't
expecting that with New York.
You know, I think of thecabarets and, and you, you hear
so much, and it was surprisingto me.
Chris Holcombe (33:25):
Well, what's interesting is that there were
different sections of Harlem andthere were.
Uh, wealthy immigrants and therewere also wealthy,
African-American populations aswell.
so in west Harlem, andparticularly there were a lot of
mansions, you know, it's, it'skinda hard to imagine Manhattan
if you see it now, because it's,it just feels like it's row
(33:46):
after row, after row ofbuildings.
But, you know, there was a pointwhere, uptown, or, you know,
Northern Manhattan, Wildernessor it looks more like the
suburbs and it doesn't look likethe urban center that it is
today.
And there were a lot of mansionsup there and the mansions were
built around the late 18hundreds, um, about early 19
hundreds.
(34:06):
and so when some of the whitecitizens of those mansions left,
uh, there were some, wealthyAfrican-Americans who could move
in.
and, uh, they would have,parties and what have you, and,
lived in these gorgeous matchesand some of them are still
around today.
I actually made a fictionalizedversion based off of, to kind
of, a mishmash of the two.
The architecture is justwonderful and beautiful.
(34:28):
So there were like these kind oftwo different types of Harlem's,
you know, you had, the wealthyHarlem you had the poor Harlem.
you also had at the time, likethe nightclub culture and the
cabaret culture, right.
There was a lot of blues clubsand the blues were, extremely
clear back then.
and a lot of the recordings,were done by a lot of, uh, uh,
(34:50):
queer women and lesbian women,so we're talking more rainy
here.
And of course, Gladys Bentley,who I based a, a character off
of which I'm sure we'll get toEl train in a minute.
but, uh, so it was, it wasinteresting to have that kind
of, we are a culture that wasthere and of course, you know,
Langston Hughes was, was part ofthe queer community, um, and a
bunch of other poets andwriters, but then you also had
(35:13):
this other fraction of Harlem,um, which I didn't delve too
much into this book, but we'llbe, and some of the other books
coming up.
Where they wanted it to be seenas respectable.
So they, they did not like thenightlife of Harlem.
They especially did not like thepre-population of Harlem.
They didn't want them to getpressed.
They didn't want them to getattention because they wanted to
(35:34):
be seen as, you know, fineupstanding citizens who didn't
click the law.
So it was a really interestingtime period.
you saw this in otherneighborhoods as well, where
there's this kind of push pullbetween kind of progressive
attitudes.
Um, and more traditionalattitudes.
And I felt like, um, that waskind of a nice, uh, uh, not
allegory, but a nice parallel tokind of what's happening now.
(35:56):
Uh, and it's interesting to seehow in American history we've
always had that this sense ofProgressive's wanting to push
the envelope, push what isacceptable and people kind of
backlashing against it.
Um, but yeah.
there were definitely two setsapart lumps and it, and it was
great to see, you know, to learnabout it because it just makes
it multi-dimension.
And unlike what we learned inhistory, we seem to seem to kind
(36:18):
of look at things in a very flatway and not seeing as something
that's a bit more dimensionaland a bit more complicated than
what's been presented to us
Brad Shreve (36:27):
you mentioned L train.
You mentioned who she's basedafter, which was a question I
was going to ask you now, I wantyou to elaborate a little
further.
I want you to explain to folkswho L train is and who you base
based on
Chris Holcombe (36:42):
Absolutely L train is one of my favorite
characters.
I love her
Brad Shreve (36:45):
mine too.
Chris Holcombe (36:47):
She's so wonderful.
Um, she's, she's going to havea, more of a starring role in
the, in the books to come,because she's just such a big
personality.
So L train is a performer at theoyster house, which is up in one
33rd, and like, in Harlem andshe plays the piano and she is a
big, broad shouldered.
(37:08):
Bush, African-American woman,and she dresses in men's
tuxedos, complete with the tailsand the top hats.
And, uh, she will perform inthis cabaret, which is, uh, a
bit of a Queer cabaret, whichalso has an interracial
audience.
So I really controversial.
And, uh, she will vulgarize.
Popular cabaret songs.
(37:29):
and she took a little Diddy,which was written in 1919 called
Alice blue gown, which was aboutAlice Roosevelt's famous blue
dress.
And, uh, I won't spoil it, butshe makes it about something
completely different andsomething that you can't repeat
in front of your mother.
Brad Shreve (37:44):
I can assure you people.
We're not playing that on theVictrolas, cause you, the lyrics
are in the book and yeah, it
Chris Holcombe (37:53):
But, uh, it's actually
Brad Shreve (37:54):
played to my.
Chris Holcombe (37:56):
yeah, it's actually based off of a song
that Gladys Bentley did, um,actuate.
So, the last versus actually averbatim what she performed.
it was actually written down,and in a book.
So I found it but I had toelaborate on some of the other
verses, But, yeah, so she'sbased off of Gladys Bentley.
As I mentioned before, andGladys Bentley, was, you know,
same, physical build, same stagedemeanor.
(38:18):
She wore men's tuxedos, completewith the top hat.
Um, and she would perform at theclam house.
Uh, so the oyster house is my.
fictionalized version of theclam house.
Um, that was also in heart.
And, uh, fi uh, we play a piano.
She had this big, booming voice.
Um, she would vulgarize popularcabaret songs, but then she
(38:40):
would also make you cry and shewould do a version of St.
James infirmary, blues thatwould just make you weak.
Um, and so she was very famousin the 1920s.
she actually had her own club inHarlem, in the 1930s called the
club a club Uganda.
and she would perform with afull band.
She would also perform with the,uh, chorus of pansies or drag
(39:02):
Queens behind her.
she, uh, performed all over thecountry.
She went out to LA, and she wasa, a personality.
There are some recordings ofher, of that are available
actually on, on streaming usnumber for twenties are, uh,
recordings.
Brad Shreve (39:17):
I want to get now to the other neighborhood in the
story that you brought up alittle earlier, and that was
Greenwich village.
And you brought up that that wasa gay community.
I think of it as a very populargay community in the sixties and
seventies.
And you're saying it was at thattime as well.
W the way you described it, itreminded me of Paris during that
(39:41):
era, uh, with the impressionistpainters and that sort of thing.
Am I right?
That it was very similar in thatsense.
And can tell us about that.
Chris Holcombe (39:51):
Yeah.
Yeah.
it was very similar.
It was called Bohemia, back inthe day.
And that was where all theartists, would go.
And so you had your painters,you had your.
Poets, you had to writers, youknow, your sculptors and what
have you.
and, uh, they, they all kind ofcongregated around the village.
and then within that, there wasa lot of, uh, Queer and LGBTQ
(40:13):
plus culture that was occurring.
so there were lesbian tea rooms,um, as well as queer and gay
speakers.
Greenwich village was a, anartistic center.
Um, it was called Bohemia wasknown as Bohemia amongst a lot
of new Yorkers.
Again, very similarly to whenwhite downtowners would go up to
Harlem, they were summit.
If you went down to the village,you were also slumming it.
(40:35):
Um, it was a big immigrantneighborhood as well.
So we had lots of, Irish andlots of Italians there.
Um, not so much Germans,although they actually started
off, down there and then moved.
Uh, a little bit more to the, tothe upper east side.
but yes, it was a, it was kindof a, a mix of cultures, um, as
well as a mix of, uh,professions.
(40:56):
So you had, you know, theartistic step, but then you also
have the dock workers who werethere.
Um, and it was, uh, a bit of arough and tumble neighborhood.
there was one bar, that was areal speakeasy that had saw dust
on the floor.
and it also had, an actualstuffed, I remember this right.
A stuffed monkey behind the bar,who was a famous circus monkey
(41:16):
that traveled around the nameescapes me, but I'll, I'll,
I'll, I'll let you know when Iremember.
but it was there behind theBard.
It was, uh, a rough kind of bar.
Uh, it was, you know, you wentin there and you didn't mess
around.
And so, you know, if you, if youdid, you, you would, you would
be shown.
Fairly quickly.
I believe that part was calledthe golden goose.
There was a golden goose outfront of it, but yeah, so there
(41:37):
was a building, a lot of itstill today, I just a car crash
of different types of culturesand different types of people
and different types ofprofessions.
Um, and so.
I wanted to try to reflect allof that.
In some ways, your performancealso your political anarchists
were there, your socialists werethere, people who were not fans
(41:58):
of the capitalists and what haveyou.
So, one of the things that I'vefound just investigating this
time period is a hundred yearslater, we're arguing about the
same.
So we're arguing about the roleof women, you know, at, you
know, may shock some of youryounger, listeners, but, you
know, women got to vote, youknow, a scant six years, five
and a half years before thestory starts and there were
(42:20):
voting and oh my God, they'regoing to vote.
And what, what was going tohappen to our political system?
And what was the role of women?
And should they be working?
Why are they working?
Where do they want to work for?
You know, and you know, the, theimmigrants people coming in, you
know, we just fought this worldwar where we don't want.
The immigrants who were leavingEurope, that we pass the
immigrant immigration act of1924, which basically, unless
(42:43):
you were British, you weren'tgetting into country.
we were arguing about, the roleof work, the role of
millionaire.
Harding and Coolidge were verymuch pro millionaire.
Everyone else was against themillionaires.
So I just look at what we arearguing about and talking about
now.
Um, and it's pretty much verysimilar in terms of subject
(43:04):
matter, in terms of tone, thedetails, may have changed, but
we're still arguing aboutthings, stuff, which on one hand
is kind of depressing, but in ahundred years, we're still
there.
but it is kind of fascinating tosee how, This again, push Paul,
you know, it's like three stepsforward, two steps back, three
steps forward, two steps back.
And that's just kind of thehistory of America in a
(43:25):
nutshell.
but Yeah, the village was a veryvocal place, and a very
interesting place, artisticplace diverse place.
Brad Shreve (43:34):
but it, isn't also kind of hip and trendy.
I'm sure I, everywhere in NewYork is expensive, but I know it
is skyrocketed.
I think it's the place to live.
Am I right?
Chris Holcombe (43:45):
Yeah.
And you know, what's interestingis, before, when it was just the
Bohemians, it was kind of dirtcheap.
And then, the wealthy peoplestarted to move in towards
Washington square park, um, andaround that area and it was
starting to drive the rents up,which of course.
Vexed the Bohemians to no end,and how they were just like, why
are you making it more expensiveto live here?
(44:05):
again, it's nothing new underthe sun, but when I read the
letter sections of the newYorker or, uh, uh, the New York
times, The New York residentswere so complaining about the
same stuff.
The subway doesn't run.
The buses are awful.
The rent is too expensive and wehate the landlords.
And again, a hundred yearslater, it's the same, it's the
(44:27):
same thing over and over again.
You know, we're pushing a realnew Yorkers out for these fake
new Yorkers to move in.
So, you know, in the village,there was a lot of ire against
the wealthy coming in becausethey're like, Okay.
you're just pretending to beable humans because it's the hip
thing to do.
But you're not one of us andyou're driving the real people
out of it.
So, that, by the way is the samething.
Now in New York, you know, we'vegot basically, uh, a lot of, uh,
(44:50):
international, wealthy moneycoming in, forcing the real new
Yorkers out.
whereas like, great, you have atax write off in a home.
You're here three weeks out ofthe year.
The rest of us have to now liveoff the island, same stuff,
nothing new, nothing new underthis.
Brad Shreve (45:04):
And it's very similar out here, the Castro and
west Hollywood, while the Castrowas, it wasn't a rundown area,
but it wasn't, exquisite and,gay folks moved in and, started
building up a community andcleaning up these beautiful,
absolutely gorgeous homes.
And all of a sudden those homesare worth a fortune and the
Castro is dying.
(45:25):
Yeah.
I have so many friends that haveleft the Castro and moved to
Palm Springs.
Uh, one it's just too expensiveand too, it's not the same.
Now, if you're in the Castro,you know, you're in the gay
community, don't get me wrong,but it's not as solid as it used
to be.
And it's very similar with westHollywood.
I forget.
(45:46):
I forget what west Hollywood'sname used to be.
It was at the edge of, LosAngeles and it's its own
separate town, but.
Kind of, because it was at theedge of the county, they could
get away with things and, yeah.
Then it developed into westHollywood is what we know as the
Garia and the same thing'shappening there.
I used to spend a lot of time inwest Hollywood now I'm live
quite a ways away.
And my husband and I drovethrough it and we're like, where
(46:09):
did all these condos come from?
And all these, straight peoplewith their strollers and you
know, what's going on here?
It's, we're seeing that happeneverywhere.
And I'm curious, it sounds likethat same thing is happening to
Harlem.
it's redeveloping.
Chris Holcombe (46:22):
Yeah, that is correct.
Yeah.
There's a lot of gentrificationhappening.
Um, and it's, uh, it's a bigtopic here in New York.
Harlem Is definitely beinggentrified.
Brooklyn areas of Brooklyn arebeing gentrified.
and so it's pushing a lot ofthose kinds of communities out.
So there's a conversationhappening about, well, On one
hand, we all like economicsprosperity.
(46:43):
But on the other hand though,like if we just homogenize
everything, like you lose theflavor of what make those, what
made those neighborhoods sospecial and so wonderful.
And also those people who havelived there before, like where,
you know, why do they have toget pushed out of their homes?
And that's their home, you know?
So there's a great, a lot ofconversation.
(47:06):
I won't say a greatconversation.
It's a tense conversation and I,but I think it's a needed one,
to be like, Okay.
how do we find the balance?
because it can't be this extremeof, you know, we've put in a
pottery barn and Starbucks andeverything is just too expensive
and only one.
group of people can live there,you know, of a, of a certain
economic class like that doesn'tseem to be a, a good thing.
(47:28):
So, but it's, it's definitelyhappening here and I'm hoping
that we can find some solutionbecause to me.
New York is a very unique city.
It's a, it's a very diversecity.
Um, and I mean, every culture inthe world is practically here,
but you know, if we go andreplace it with TGI Friday's,
then it's just going to be areally over expensive suburb and
(47:50):
who, the hell wants to add.
Um, so, I would love New York tostay in New York and I want it
to stay weird and wonderful anddiverse.
And so I'm, I'm hoping that, wecan find some sort of solution.
I mean, this city really isfabulous.
I've lived in, in a couple ofdifferent towns and this is by
far one of my things.
and for anyone who wants tovisit, visit, but please don't
(48:11):
go to time square.
That's not New York.
That's for tourists out.
Email me.
I'll tell you where to go.
So you can support new Yorkersand support New York
neighborhoods.
Brad Shreve (48:20):
if you go to Hawaii and only stay in hunter,
Lulu, what the hell you might aswell go to Miami.
Chris Holcombe (48:25):
Yeah.
Brad Shreve (48:25):
But what you're talking about happening in
Harlem is, you know, I thinkit's happening in every city.
the area that I mentionedearlier about Westland.
Had the park is actually nowcalled MacArthur park, that
area.
And it's where, because the rentwas so low, it's a lot of,
first-generation immigrants thatlived there.
But all of a sudden now we'reseeing condos being built.
(48:46):
And I have no doubt in my mind,that's pretty much what it's
going to be in 10 years.
And what's going to happen tothose other folks, where are
they going to go?
And it concerns me.
I hope it's not the street.
Because it's not cheap to livein LA.
It's not cheap to live in LA.
Well, I could go on and on aboutthis, we could do, I could just
make this, the history show,which I've actually considered
(49:08):
as a podcast.
If I ever do that, I'll have youback on.
Well, I have may have back onanyway, when your next book
comes out and I do want to talkabout that.
You have another one coming upthat you're working on and I see
the blind title.
Is going to be the next hiddenGotham novel.
When can we expect that?
Chris Holcombe (49:30):
Um, we're expecting it and December, so
that's, that's our, that's our,our, our date so fairly fast.
but the reason for that?
is because actually in writingthe double vice, uh, when I
first started it, it wasactually three books in one.
Um, I realized I had, I had toomuch.
Because there was so much toplay with and so much to work
with.
And so actually The Double Viceis one-third and so the, uh, The
(49:54):
Blind Tiger is going to be thesecond, third, and then there's
going to be another book thatwill be The third, third.
So, um, so hence the speed onit, but, um, It Raymond for
Christmas.
So it'd be a great stockingstuffer.
and I'm looking forward to it.
Uh, I'm about neck deep in it.
but it's going to be a littlebit of a different story.
So dash Parker is still going tobe, our hero, but here we're
(50:16):
getting into the world ofpoisoned, booze and chemists.
And something that I've teasedin this book that, you know, I'm
going to fully flesh out and theblind tiger and, uh, um, really
kind of delve into more of theprohibition side of it and
actually dealing with the, themedical examiners office.
So, I am going to start talkingabout Charles Norris, who was,
(50:39):
our, coroner and, New York atBellevue hospital.
And he and his partner,Alexander Gettler actually
created the processes that wouldactually become, forensic
medicine and, and in crimesolving.
and so it was that office.
I read a great book called thePoisoner's handbook by Deborah
Bluhm.
Leave him saying her last namecorrectly.
If I'm not, I'm sorry, Deborah,but it's a great book.
(51:01):
And I believe it was made intoa, mini series that just talks
about how they discovered, Howhuman beings died in the city.
Cause back then coroners werepaid by the body and everyone
was corrupt shocker.
So, you know, the coroners wouldbe like, yeah, just pay me
whatever.
And now I'll just process thebody.
So they'd be like, yeah, thisperson died, you know, falling
out of a window and he was shot,you know, like, so there was
(51:23):
there, wasn't a lot of ethicalconsiderations going on.
not to derail a little bit, butuh, we're going to be dealing
with them and that's afascinating history in and of
itself.
So I can't wait to talk aboutthat a little bit later when
that book comes out.
But so yeah, we're going to bedealing with, unfortunately,
some dead flappers, um, some,some poison booze.
Where is it coming from?
(51:43):
Um, and how do we, stop it?
So that's, that's coming up inDecember.
Brad Shreve (51:47):
December, 2021.
And of course I can't let you gobefore we do awkward questions,
authors, get, I can't believe Ialmost forgot.
That,
Chris Holcombe (51:59):
Yeah, no, I have, I have, I I'm I'm I'm
ready for my awkward.
author question.
I can't wait.
Brad Shreve (52:04):
okay, so step back, I'm going to spin the
wheel here and we're going tofind your question.
Okay, Chris, I've got yourquestion.
When are you going to write aNew York times?
Best seller.
Chris Holcombe (52:27):
Oh, gosh, I hope I've already done.
So, um, uh, that's a greatquestion.
Um, Yeah.
Sure the next one, the blindtiger.
That's the one that's going tohit the charts.
That's the one's going to hitthe charts cause you're all are
going to buy it for Christmas.
It's going to make a great gift,um, especially for your
conservative aunts and uncles.
(52:47):
Um, You know, it's funny aboutthis, uh, the author questions,
awkward author questions becauseI used to be a musician,
obviously, um, uh, uh, uh, uh,wanted award, uh, for a song.
I didn't make a dime off thatsong, but I won an award.
So I'm going to champion it.
Every every chance I get, but wewould always get, like, we would
(53:08):
always compare like the awkward,singer songwriter questions
you'd get, you know, and some ofthe stuff that they would ask
you at club owners, do you know?
And, um, I think one of the lastauthors you interviewed on the
show, what was it like, have youwritten anything that I heard
of?
I've gotten that one, in a musicsection.
Have you done anything I'veheard of have done anything I've
seen?
You're like good grief.
Okay.
(53:29):
Um, yes.
That's why I'm playing your divebar, which has 15 drunks in it.
Yes, that's exactly why I'mhere.
Brad Shreve (53:36):
It's like, oh yeah.
I think my next book I'll writea New York by times.
So it's about time.
I did one of those.
Chris Holcombe (53:43):
Hey, by the time I did one of those.
Well, if I did, I'd probablywant to, I probably have to set
it in world war II because worldwar II sells like hotcakes.
So I'll be like done.
We'll write about Nazis.
That seems to be the, the, the,does your forced or crime
fiction, best sellers.
Brad Shreve (54:00):
Okay.
Chris Holcomb, his first novelis The Double Vice I highly
recommended It's available now.
And thank you, Chris.
And for being on the show andfolks, you know what it's going
to be, it's all going to be ontheir show notes to his website
and to buy the book.
And thank you very much, Chris,for being on this.
Chris Holcombe (54:17):
Yeah, thank you very much for having me.
And thank you Justene forfinding my book.
I don't know how she it did, butI'm still glad she did.
Cause then we got introduced.
So this.
has been an absolute honor.
Brad Shreve (54:27):
Lord only knows where she finds these things.
And one last reminder to thelisteners next Saturday, July
24th, 3:00 PM.
Eastern time, 12 noon Pacifictime.
Queer Writers of Crime is goingto be locked.
For the first time, on Tune InRadio, part of the Pride48
network.
(54:48):
And as I said before, we'regoing to have a special guest
reviewer because Justene can'tmake it.
And Marko Realmonte will be onwith some very special news.
In this episode, hear what rating Justene gives
to her recommendation, a novelthat includes Nazis and the
occult.
And Chris Holcombe is my guestwho talks about The Double Vice
a novel that will transport youinto 1920s, Greenwich Village,
and Harlem.
I'm Brad Shreve and you'relistening to Queer Writers of
(00:21):
Crime featuring LGBTQ authors ofmystery, suspense, and thriller
novels.
Before we begin, I wanted to letyou all know that Justene is
such a trooper.
(00:42):
I don't think she's ever misseda recording session She has a
lot going on and I told her,don't worry, I'll wing it.
And despite everything going on.
She is here.
Justene (00:54):
Hi, Brad.
You know, I don't like to letpeople down.
Brad Shreve (00:57):
And you didn't let me down.
I'm grateful to see you here,
Justene (01:00):
Well at least hear me.
Yes.
I didn't want to let thelisteners down either.
I like to believe people want meon here.
Brad Shreve (01:07):
Trust me based on the emails and such, they do.
Yes.
Justene (01:10):
Oh, good.
See, I fished for thatcompliment and it came here.
Brad Shreve (01:13):
I got an, a quick announcement before we get to
your recommendation.
Justene (01:18):
Okay.
Brad Shreve (01:19):
This Saturday, July 24th, we are going to be
live for the very first time.
It's a loose network of queerpodcast, called Pride48.
And there will be a live showsall weekend.
Big Gay Fiction podcast is partof the network, but they won't
be on live.
Unfortunately.
But our friends, Mike and Kyleover Gayish will be, they're
(01:41):
going to have a live show thatweekend.
Our show Queer Writers of Crimewill be on Saturday, July 24th,
3:00 PM.
Eastern time 12 noon Pacifictime.
Justene (01:53):
Well, you know, Brad, when it's live, I can't really
run it around my schedule.
I, I won't actually show up thatweek, but I think that the
surprise group placement willreally please people
Brad Shreve (02:07):
I think so too.
In fact, I'm going to tell himwhen Justine told me, there's no
way she could do this liveepisode.
She said, this is the personwho's going to.
And it wasn't like a, this isthe person I want to do it.
It was, this is the personthat's going to do it.
So you'll see next Saturdaylistening.
And you'll find out who theguest book recommendation-dur
(02:30):
is.
guess that's a word.
Justene (02:31):
Yeah, Yeah
Brad Shreve (02:32):
it has now.
It is now.
And don't worry.
We'll will be back on again nextTuesday as well.
Got some different things goingon then.
Justene (02:41):
but you can tell him who the guests on the live
performance.
Brad Shreve (02:45):
Yes, it's going to be Marko Realmonte
Justene (02:48):
Yes,
Brad Shreve (02:49):
He is back.
Is this, is this the second timehe's been on or the third?
Justene (02:53):
this is the second time he's been on, but it's,
what's his third book.
Brad Shreve (02:57):
Okay.
It's the second time he's beenon.
And I will tell you this.
He has some big news.
Justene (03:02):
Well, there's a lot of teasing with this episode
people, you know, and I gottasay the people should not think
we're over-hyping and I thinkpeople are going to be very
pleased on both the accounts.
Brad Shreve (03:12):
Let me just say one thing you'll listen on
Tune-in Radio, which they havean app, also a website.
I will leave the link in theshow notes.
I probably could have not saidthat they would have figured it
out on their own, please listenin It's your turn, Justene, go
for it.
Justene (03:29):
All right.
So I have been looking for thisseries for a long time.
Um, I mean, I remembered enoughabout it and how great it was,
but I couldn't quite come upwith the author or the, or the
name of the series.
and I have finally found that Iwent back so far in my Kindle
history that I have finallyfound the series and.
(03:50):
This series started in May 22nd,2012, and it has four books in
it.
And the last one came out onMarch 5th, 2016.
So I bought the first book onMarch 21st, 2016, and I bought
the fourth book on March 22nd,2016.
(04:11):
and I bought them as I finishedthem.
So you can see just how much Iloved this series.
Brad Shreve (04:17):
Yeah, it sounds like you liked it.
Okay.
Justene (04:20):
Yeah, I liked it.
Okay.
But this author, unfortunately,I haven't found anything he's
written since then.
which is too bad.
I don't know if he really hasput stuff out under another pen
name or not, but, it's anexcellent series.
Well, let me tell you about it.
It's
Brad Shreve (04:34):
well, who is the author?
Justene (04:36):
the author is Alex Fiano.
The first book in the series wasput out and, or a A.R.
Fianno.
It is extremely well-written.
It's getting my glowingrecommendation.
Gabriel's World is the name ofthe series.
The first book is called TheHanged Man, The Hanged Man, H A
N G E D man.
(04:58):
And It's tied in with the taro.
The hanged man is a tarot cardand each of the chapters starts
out with a description of anapplicable tarot card.
Gabriel is a privateinvestigator.
The book starts with him havingjust gotten out of jail.
(05:18):
He was arrested for attacking aReverend and this I'm sure this
fictional Reverend I'm sure willbe familiar to many.
The Reverend led a church who,was protesting that the funeral
of one of Gabriel's friends.
So this was a military veteranand the church members showed up
(05:42):
and were protesting outside herfuneral, calling her a dyke and
he left the funeral, came overand punched the Reverend.
It was a highly well covered inthe press, rather famous
incident in this book.
And, he is, let out with the,and there's a called ACD and
that part of the country, whereif you stay out of trouble for
(06:04):
six months, they'll drop thecharges.
So he's really trying to stayout of trouble, um, which means
he's, he doesn't want to getcaught being in trouble.
he's still causing trouble.
A lawyer picks him up, from, youknow, picks him up in a limo
from his, the courthouse stepsand drives him back to New York.
(06:26):
And along the way the lawyersays he wants to hire him.
The lawyer is on the board of afoundation, a Jewish studies
foundation, and he wants to hirehim because one of the board
members cause connected to aNazi and while the lawyer knows
this, the lawyer has no proof.
(06:46):
Um, and wants Gabriel to findthe proof About an hour after
the lawyer drops him off thelawyer disappears there's video
of the lawyer having coffee withsome man in a cap and dark
glasses, Raymond gets sick.
The lawyer gets sick.
The, the, the skies man takesthem out of there.
(07:08):
And the next time Raymond isseen, he is found in his bed at
his apartment.
apparently dead by autofixation, accident, which
Gabriel can see a stage.
And Gabriel, has, has brokeninto the lawyers apartment while
the lawyer has been missing.
(07:30):
And he knows the lawyer wasn'tin there and he knows the lawyer
hasn't been there for three daysdead.
the police of course suspect himof the crime.
that's part of why he has toinvestigate.
Raymond who's the lawyer, hispartner has hired, Gabriel to
prove that it was a homicidebecause his partner wants to,
take away the reputationdamaging of the suicide or the
(07:55):
accident of auto eroticfixation.
So he's, he's got some money tofollow this up.
He's got money for experts inthe law.
his investigation takes him intoNazi secret societies and it
takes him into, the small, cultorganizations that were involved
with the Nazi secret societies.
(08:16):
And he gets in tangled in avariety of conspiracy theories.
He likes conspiracty theories.
trait I share with him.
He doesn't believe most of them.
But this conspiracy theory, hasa basis, in fact, so they spent
a lot of time researching.
He ends up hooking up with a,news reporter, a highly refined,
(08:41):
Indian gentlemen, and also onthe scene is his former
boyfriend who.
Shows up at just the right timeto give him just the right help
and also to try to seduce himagain into the relationship.
So he's got a lot going on.
There's a lot of competingthreads in this book.
(09:02):
all of them are well-developedall of them.
They fit together like puzzlepieces.
There's nothing left hangingever.
and it's so, and it's a wild,wild ride.
Very well-written has theglowing recommendation.
And I think people will really,really like this series.
There's no paranormal in it.
It's just an exploration of the,organizations that were
(09:24):
researching the occult andtrying to use the occult to help
the Nazis It's a great book andit's a great series.
I read it in literally a day anda half.
and it's stuck with me thiswhole time.
And I finally dug far enoughback that I could pull it out
for people and I've, re-read thefirst book in it and it holds up
(09:44):
as well as I remember.
Brad Shreve (09:46):
And I think you have some stuff from ReQueered
Tales today.
Justene (09:49):
I do.
We are publishing our firstoriginal book.
It is by Felice, Picano it iscalled Betrothal at Usk..
It's a science fiction book.
It is the second book in thetrilogy, which Drylands End was
published back in.
nineties, we republished itearlier this year, and this one
(10:13):
of his most critically acclaimedbooks and people who read it,
I've always asked him to, youknow, when is he going to
publish the sequel?
And it's finally found a home atReQueered Tales.
It's our first original book andis now available for pre-order.
It's called The Betrothal atUsk.
U S K.
Brad Shreve (10:32):
Good job to y'all for getting a first published
book.
That's awesome.
Justene (10:36):
it is awesome.
It's terrific.
Brad Shreve (10:38):
I think it will be the first of many.
Justene (10:40):
Well, let me just say first published books are a lot
harder to, to get out thenrepublished books.
So
Brad Shreve (10:49):
Well, let me just say it's the first of many, if
that's what you want.
Justene (10:53):
well, uh, you know, we we've, we've got more on the
line and I think people willenjoy them.
And when it comes to republishbooks, we're releasing the, the
next book in a Lev Raphael'sNick Hoffman series.
And that's going to be onpre-order in the next week or
two,
Brad Shreve (11:11):
Sounds great.
thank you Justine.
And I will talk to you next weekand thank you.
Thank you for making it in yourschedule.
Justene (11:18):
all right.
Good to see you again, Brad.
Brad Shreve (11:43):
So Chris, are you all Jake for the interview?
Chris Holcombe (11:46):
I am all Jake for the interview?
Brad Shreve (11:48):
one thing I loved about your novel.
The Double Vice of idioms andslangs from the 1920s.
And I have this thing writerslike to sometimes someone will
be speaking in a foreignlanguage.
you don't know what they'retalking about.
It's just this sentence there totry and make it sound authentic
or they'll use slang from a timeperiod where you have no clue as
(12:13):
to what they're saying.
And what I really liked aboutyour book is the way the word is
used in your sentences.
You know exactly what they'retalking about.
I guess, Jake is common still inAustralia.
I had to look it up, but It'sdefinitely fallen out of favor
in the United States.
So I read it and I knew rightaway, it meant everything's cool
or everything's fine.
The blurb for The Double Vicesays, it's the shadowy world of
(12:35):
drag queens, caberetperformances, gangsters,mob
molls,, lesbian lawyers, and amysterious but dangerous
baroness of business.
And if that's not enough, Idon't know what it is, and that
is not a lie.
It's all in there.
Let's go ahead.
And with your introduction,Chris Holcomb is an author of
(12:56):
LGBTQ plus historical crimefiction.
The Double Vice it's, the firstnovel in his Hidden Gotham
Series, which showcases newYork's lively, but criminally
under representative queer worldof the 1920s.
He is also an award winningsongwriter, winning Best Folk
Song at the 2009 Hollywood musicin media awards, as well as an
(13:20):
accomplished brand strategist inmarketing and advertising.
He lives with his husband in NewYork.
I'm going to get away from thebook for a second here because
something just jumped out at me.
So you won an award for a song.
And you are a brand strategistand marketing and advertising
(13:40):
any chance that you've writtenjingles?
Chris Holcombe (13:44):
I wish, you know, the jingles are no longer
in fashion, hardly anymore,which is so sad to me.
because I would have loved towrite like, you know, for Double
mint, you remember the DoubleMint commercials and, and
whatnot.
but I, funny enough, myundergrad was Berkeley college.
And I did take jingle writing,with a guy named John Aldridge
(14:04):
who wrote all the jingles.
I think he wrote, mostly forMcDonald's.
Um, so I did study it.
I never got a chance to, uh,pull it through sadly, but you
know, if there's an opportunityto write a jingle, I will do it.
Brad Shreve (14:17):
it's funny that it's fallen out of favor because
they definitely stuck in yourhead.
Chris Holcombe (14:23):
Oh, yeah, absolutely.
They totally worked.
but yeah, it's, it's funny howthings kind of worked out, but
Brad Shreve (14:30):
I hope you get the day to write that jingle.
Chris Holcombe (14:33):
Me too.
Brad Shreve (14:34):
I gotta say I really tried hard not to get
overly excited when I'm talkingto an author, because I just
like to talk about the book andI.
don't want to make one guest,feel more welcomed than the
other, I'm going to do it.
There's I'm a break.
My rule this time.
I love The Double Vice.
Justene did a bookrecommendation for it.
And when I told her you aregoing to be on the show, I
(14:57):
sometimes I don't tell her whothe guest is.
Just not to keep it a secret.
We just don't talk about it.
By mentioned you are goingbeyond.
And she said, I loved this bookand now I know why.
Chris Holcombe (15:09):
well, thank you so much.
Brad Shreve (15:10):
Well, you're very welcome.
And a huge part of it is I lovehim.
I'm a big history nut, but I'mnot a history nut in a sense.
I could care less about all thewars and the battles and the
royalty.
I want to know what everydayfolks were doing as a general
rule.
And that's really what you gotinto you got into, as you said,
uh, Part of history.
(15:31):
That's not represented enoughfor not told enough.
And, and that's the kind ofhistory I'm really into.
I studied two years and this wason my own time.
It wasn't for, for college oranything for two years, I did an
in-depth study on the settlingof the Midwest and the city
planning and real estate scamsthat were going on.
(15:52):
that's how much I liked thoseeveryday occurrences, more than.
The big ones that you read aboutin the history books.
So you took me there And I'mgoing to say, I'll read a book.
I enjoy reading it, but I knowI'm reading a novel about that
era and I've read novels aboutthe Victorian era and the
sixties and the fifties.
(16:13):
And you're novel takes place in1926.
And I wasn't reading a novelabout 1926.
You took me in to 1926.
Like I felt like a participant,
Chris Holcombe (16:27):
Well, Thank you.
I've worked really hard at that.
I worked really hard on thatbecause, um, one of the things
that I've actually not a bighistorical crime fiction reader
myself, um, I actually readmore, present day.
Although some of the stuff Iread now is like take place in
the eighties and early nineties.
So I guess it could behistorical fiction nowadays.
Brad Shreve (16:47):
Yeah.
Chris Holcombe (16:48):
But I wanted it to read, like it was written in
present day.
that was kind of my approach.
So all I did was when I was on acertain day and a certain scene,
I would read, articles in theNew York times from that day,
articles from that week of thenew Yorker, which I've got
access to all the archives thatgo all the way back to the
1920s.
And that was it.
(17:08):
And I didn't want to put in.
Yeah, wink, wink, nudge, nudgeirony about, we know what's
going to happen a hundred yearsfrom now.
I didn't want to do that.
I wanted it to feel verypresent.
So I'm very pleased to hear thatfrom you, that I took you in
there.
Cause that was my intent.
I wanted it to feel not like youwere reading something
historical, but that you werereading something as if it was
happening right now in the senseof you were in that narrative.
(17:32):
So, that was, that was my intentand I'm glad that I pulled it
off.
Brad Shreve (17:36):
I really liked the way you.
made it fit in that I didn'thave to wonder what they meant,
but I will tell you, it threw meout of the story at times,
because I was like, wow, I'venever heard that term before.
And I knew exactly what we'retalking about, but I'm like, I
want to find out the backgroundof that, so I quickly got on the
computer and I'd look it up andfind out, when it started and
(17:57):
how long it lasted and where itcame from.
Um, it's obvious you did a lotof that research.
Chris Holcombe (18:03):
Yeah.
Yeah.
absolutely.
I I've had a lot of differentslang dictionaries.
I even found a slang.
That was written by CabCalloway, that talked about, so
you could learn how to talk hepas it were, which I guess would
mean hip nowadays, but, uh, butit was, it was really fun to
look at and, and find some ofthese terms.
I actually, on my Instagram, Ifeature a word Wednesday where
(18:25):
we go through a couple of seriesof words or phrases, just kind
of like show it off and educatedsome of the more, Uh, out there
ones that I wouldn't necessarilyput in the book, because it
would take you too far out ofthe story where you'd go, what
in the world is that?
So there are some reallyinteresting ones, but I was
surprised at how much of theslang that was developed in the
twenties we still use today.
(18:45):
It's really interesting to seehow some things kind of carried
over into present.
I think bee's knees lasted for along time, um, before it quickly
kind of fell out of fashion, butit lasted for awhile, And a
couple of others, but, I think.
like dime notes And nickelnotes.
Brad Shreve (19:00):
I think people still know bee's knees, but it's
more in a kind of a joking manthat they'll say it.
Not
Chris Holcombe (19:05):
Yeah.
Brad Shreve (19:06):
you as back in the past,
Chris Holcombe (19:08):
That's that's true.
That's very true.
Brad Shreve (19:10):
we're going To talk about your book, and we're
going to talk about yourprotagonist Dash Parker, but I
want to start from the verybeginning of the book.
You had notes from the authorand in it, you kind of wanted to
explain the slang terms you weregoing to be using.
and that were commonly used atthe time.
And, and you mentioned that.
(19:31):
Heterosexual, homosexual,bisexual word, not terms used
then.
And that terms that today wouldbe offensive like fairies and
pansies weren't necessarilyoffensive back then.
Can you speak a little on thatside?
Cause you, you said you were,you kind of used, I think it was
fairies that said, you said wasyou as much more than you did in
(19:54):
the book because he didn't wantto.
be offensive, but
Chris Holcombe (19:57):
Yeah.
Brad Shreve (19:57):
talk a little bit more about that.
Chris Holcombe (19:59):
Sure, absolutely.
So, you know, one of the thingswhen you're looking at, um, and
we're talking about the termsthat the homosexual community or
the queer community, excuse me,would be referred to.
and have referred to themselvesas, and back then a lot of that
identity or a lot of those termswere based upon gender
appearance.
And so I wanted to make surethat people understood that
(20:19):
because nowadays obviously, youknow, with the conversation
about like, with non-binary andgender nonconforming and gender
queer, you know, this is, thisis going to be a little bit
alien, I think, um, to, to newertypes of readers.
So I wanted to let them givethem a heads up that that was
occurring.
But then I also wanted to makesure that I didn't.
Use terms that would be wildlyoffensive today, even if they
(20:43):
weren't offensive back then.
because I didn't want to takethe reader out of the story and
I didn't want them to, get hurtby it.
that's something that I didn'twant to do at the end of the
day.
I'm an entertainer.
and I wanted people to beentertained while reading the
book.
So I that's, when I kind of madethe distinction between, the
terms fairy versus pansy, causepansy is not even really used a
(21:03):
lot nowadays.
I don't think I've ever reallyheard it in a long, long time.
Um, except, you know, referenceto the flowers.
and by the way, they're toughflowers.
I, I think it's ironic that, youknow, pansy was, later in the
forties and fifties useddisparagingly, but really they
are.
They are toughest healthflowers, to be honest.
So I find that really funny, butyou know, but you know, uh, drag
Queens back then, if they werereferred to in newspapers.
(21:26):
so if you read the back issuesof the New York times, you'll
see them referred to as femaleimpersonators are male
impersonators.
So we're talking about dragQueens And drag Kings,
colloquially, uh, they would bereferred to as bull daggers or b
ulls, for the women.
And there were also referred toas fairies or pansies.
In terms of the men.
And so I figured since fairystill used today as a slur, in
(21:50):
some respects, um, I wanted todo downplay that word and kind
of dial up pansy and I couldjustify it historically because
in the thirties, that was whatwas going to be rising to
prominence in terms of the pansycraze, before the moralists came
in and, kind of wiped it out.
Brad Shreve (22:07):
Yeah, well, I think fairy is one of those
things where two gay men cancall each other a fairy and book
straight people referred to asnormals.
They're not allowed to causefairies.
It's a very big difference.
Chris Holcombe (22:20):
a big difference.
Brad Shreve (22:22):
Any word, it really comes down to how it's
used.
That makes the difference.
Chris Holcombe (22:27):
absolutely.
Brad Shreve (22:29):
so a lot of this stuff I really want again too,
because there's so much history,in this novel that I just found
a lot of fun.
Let's just go ahead and startwith the story.
Uh, should we talk about thestory or should we start talking
about Dash.
Chris Holcombe (22:41):
Yeah, absolutely.
Dash Parker, is our hero.
He is a fallen Manhattansocialite.
he grew up in privilege.
He grew up in.
The, uh, the gilded townhouses,and the early 19 hundreds.
and he is an unusual characterfor the time because, uh, he
recognized his sexuality asbeing something different.
(23:02):
he actually fell in love withhis family's tailor.
Um, uh, Spanish Taylor.
Oh my what, what a, what acontroversy?
actually, excuse me, he wasCatalin not Spanish Catalin um,
I would get smacked.
Um, but for the differences, butyeah, he, he fell in love and
he, was inspired by his, youngersister, um, who died in the 1918
(23:27):
flu epidemic back then.
and, uh, his sister hadrecognized who he was, I think
long before Dash.
did and said you should liveyour life your way.
And so spurred on by the deathof his sister, he decided to go
down to the village Greenwichvillage, which was a Queer Haven
at the time still is.
and, uh, he was going to try tolive his life that way.
(23:50):
And, a couple of twists andturns have happened and he's
opened up a speakeasy behind,uh, the tailor shop, called
pinstripes because we can't, wegotta love a good pun we in the
queer community love our puns.
So I had to bring that through,um, and, uh, he's opened the
speakeasy and, uh, trying tolive a life of good music, good
gin, and good men.
Brad Shreve (24:11):
I love the speakeasy behind the tailor
shop.
I thought that was awesome.
the only thing I've ever seenfrom that era that I can think
of is I, for a short time, Iworked for a real estate agent.
He would have like two openinghouses at the same time.
And I would work one of themwhile he worked the other.
And one was in a mansion in anarea here called Los Feliz which
(24:33):
a lot of people outside LA I'venever heard of.
It's there, there's somebeautiful mansions there.
And one was this mansion.
That was absolutely incredible.
And you go down to the basement.
And everything's normal, butthen all of a sudden can turn
these, things around and there'sthis hidden door and open up the
wall and you have a bar actualbartender behind the bar.
And I was thinking of that housethe whole time I'm reading about
(24:56):
this speakeasy and having to getin.
So that was a lot of fun.
So tell us Dash, he's runningthis speakeasy, but that's not
what all the stories about whathappens here.
Chris Holcombe (25:08):
We open with, uh, an outsider has found his
way into the club and by outsideor meeting someone who is not
Queer very obviously.
and during this time period, itwasn't illegal.
the law was a degeneratedisorderly conduct, and that was
passed around, I believe, 19 24,19 25.
Um, so, dash could not only bearrested for running a
(25:32):
speakeasy, which.
Was against, uh, the, uh, theVolstead act, uh, commonly known
as prohibition, but he couldalso be arrested for, this
degeneracy.
and so there's this one who isthis man who is in the tennis
club, looking for a drag queen.
He is looking specifically for adrag queen that it's very
obvious that he does not havegood intentions.
And so Dash is going to try tofind a way to kind of protect,
(25:53):
uh, this person.
And it turns out that thisperson is as looking for the
drag queen to get to hisbrother, his brother named Karl
um, Karl Mueller is, uh, the boywho was in the club, Walter
Mueller is the outsider or thebluenose, someone who is a
Teetotaller believes inprohibition.
and Dash is going to try to hideKarl from Walter because he has
(26:15):
been there.
he feels a kinship with Karl assomeone who was a young queer
man who is, you know, trying tolive his life and is trying to
get out from under a veryoppressive family.
And, so he tries to hide them.
He hides them with a friend ofhis, in Harlem.
And so dash is, uh, Very uniquefor the time period.
(26:36):
He is friends with people ofdifferent races.
He is friends with someone whowas an African-American woman,
who was a performer in Harlem,and he tries to hide Carl up
there.
And of course it all goes wrong.
Cause this is a crime story.
So nothing ever goes right in astraight line, quite in a
straight line.
and unfortunately, Carl is,murdered.
(26:57):
And so now we've got a situationwhere Dashville is very guilty,
um, because he tried to protectthis boy and he couldn't.
Um, but then Walter comes backaround the brother.
And blackmails him and hisfriends to find the drag queen
that he was originally lookingfor.
because he's going to enact alittle bit of vengeance.
And so now we've got, uh, dualsided story where we want to one
(27:19):
figure out what happens to Carlcause Dashville is responsible,
but then we've also got to getout from underneath Walter, this
blackmailer.
So it's a, the reluctantdetective times too, and trying
to figure out a way around this,and, following, The path of
Carlos' life and figuring outwho was in his life and all the
(27:39):
people involved and, people arenot quite what they seem as we
find out, um, in several partsof this story.
Brad Shreve (27:46):
Well, one thing I found interesting about
pinstripe since we'respecifically talking about dash
right now, is that was broughtup that, well, actually, let me
go back one step back.
You talked about Carl or Walterwhile looking for his brother.
Said he was looking for a pansy,not a drag queen.
Chris Holcombe (28:04):
Yeah, that's correct
Brad Shreve (28:06):
You said he was looking for a drag queen?
No, he wasn't.
He was looking for a pansy.
Chris Holcombe (28:09):
for a pansy.
Brad Shreve (28:09):
So again, you stayed there true to the time,
but now going back to her, whatI was about to say is.
Pinstripes.
What I found interesting is ithad a lot of things, morally
reprehensible about it.
First of all, it was a speakeasyto begin with.
Second of all, it happened to bea club for queer folk at that
(28:31):
time.
And then it was brought up thatthe other thing that was immoral
and illegal was that the bandthat played.
They were black.
Chris Holcombe (28:43):
Yeah.
Highly,
Brad Shreve (28:46):
I want to hear a little bit of more about that.
As you know, we always think ofthe south as being prejudice.
And I lived in North Carolinaand trust me, there were a lot
of class members I went toschool with that were in the
Klan.
So it's, it is very prevalent inthe south, but people think it
never happens in the north ornever did.
Can you talk about that duringthat era?
Chris Holcombe (29:07):
Sure, absolutely.
I mean, this is like a lot ofAmerican cities at that time for
it were still somewhatsegregated.
So, you know, you had Harlem,which was where a good majority
of the black population lived aswell as the Italian population
and, other nationalities aswell.
But, for example, The timesquares, Broadway theaters,
(29:31):
black patrons can only be in thebalcony.
They could never be on thefloor.
So the audiences could not mixthe cotton club, which is a
famous Harlem, nightclub thatI'm sure a lot of your listeners
have heard of.
the performers were all, peopleof color, but the audience was
all white.
And the club that you know was,being drawn in, you know, for
(29:52):
like Louis Armstrong and dukeEllington.
So there was a lot ofsegregation and a lot of laws
against it.
I believe.
the cabaret act, was somethingthat was passed that really kind
of put the kibosh on a lot ofinterracial mixing.
Now, what was interesting aboutprohibition is that.
It drove a lot of thingsunderground.
And so people started do alittle mixing and matching as it
(30:16):
were.
Um, and so a lot of, whites thatwere called downtowners would go
up to Harlem because it was, thekind of taboo thing to do.
they actually called it.
You would go slumming up there.
and so you w you would actuallykind of sell tickets to kind of
do that, so they could go tocertain clubs, but there were
clubs that would start to mixaudiences.
and, uh, there were clubs thatalso started to mix band
(30:39):
members.
You know, I think what was here,but was really illegal, was not
only was, the band, black, butactually two members.
If I remember right, it was amale.
Of white and black and thatcertainly wasn't.
On the stage.
So, you know, it's reallyinteresting.
I think, it's surprised a lot ofpeople, a lot of readers have
commented on that, that theydidn't recognize that even
(31:00):
though it was New York city andit was the north that
segregation still occurred.
Right.
and was not necessarily asviolent as the south was.
you know, especially during thetwenties, we got the rise of the
KKK.
We had the rise of the Jim Crowlaws and everything, but Yeah,
it, it wasn't, um, it wasn't theutopia that most people would,
(31:22):
would think of.
And so actually a lot of thegreat migration that, occurred.
a lot of blacks were reallydisappointed when they got here
because they still facedepression.
They still face lower wages.
Harlem, believe it or not was,predominantly white before, the,
the African-American communitystarted moving, moving in.
And so all the whites fled andthe buildings which were owned
(31:44):
predominantly by whitelandlords, jacked the rent.
So that way people had to cramin more, then it's into the
buildings, then the whitetenants have done it.
And then of course, people spunit and go, we'll see, it's the
slum, but yet it's the slumbecause of the white landlords
who basically break the system.
So.
There was a lot of that stillgoing on in that day.
(32:05):
So I wanted to try to kind ofcapture how it was still taboo
and to show kind of what aboundary breaker dash Parker is
and the fact that he was willingto kind of look beyond the norms
of his day.
not just in terms of his ownsexuality, but also in terms of
race.
Brad Shreve (32:22):
Yeah, it's really surprising to me to hear that
Los Angelesduring that era wasvery conservative.
Hollywood was an ultraconservative neighborhood.
In fact, the Hollywood sign, thehistory behind the Hollywood
sign.
It used to be, say Hollywoodland.
And I think a lot of people knowthat it used to be Hollywood
land and Hollywood land was atthe bottom of the hill, a
(32:44):
housing development for whitesonly.
And I've seen the ads forHollywood land.
Yeah.
Without saying it, it was nothidden it basically said you'll
get away from the Mexicans andthe black folk without really
saying that it was justblatantly obvious that that's
what they were talking about.
So I have gotten used to livingin Los Angeles is as long as I
(33:07):
have at this point, I've gottenused to realizing that this was
it pretty conservative city?
The state itself is prettyconservative, but I wasn't
expecting that with New York.
You know, I think of thecabarets and, and you, you hear
so much, and it was surprisingto me.
Chris Holcombe (33:25):
Well, what's interesting is that there were
different sections of Harlem andthere were.
Uh, wealthy immigrants and therewere also wealthy,
African-American populations aswell.
so in west Harlem, andparticularly there were a lot of
mansions, you know, it's, it'skinda hard to imagine Manhattan
if you see it now, because it's,it just feels like it's row
(33:46):
after row, after row ofbuildings.
But, you know, there was a pointwhere, uptown, or, you know,
Northern Manhattan, Wildernessor it looks more like the
suburbs and it doesn't look likethe urban center that it is
today.
And there were a lot of mansionsup there and the mansions were
built around the late 18hundreds, um, about early 19
hundreds.
(34:06):
and so when some of the whitecitizens of those mansions left,
uh, there were some, wealthyAfrican-Americans who could move
in.
and, uh, they would have,parties and what have you, and,
lived in these gorgeous matchesand some of them are still
around today.
I actually made a fictionalizedversion based off of, to kind
of, a mishmash of the two.
The architecture is justwonderful and beautiful.
(34:28):
So there were like these kind oftwo different types of Harlem's,
you know, you had, the wealthyHarlem you had the poor Harlem.
you also had at the time, likethe nightclub culture and the
cabaret culture, right.
There was a lot of blues clubsand the blues were, extremely
clear back then.
and a lot of the recordings,were done by a lot of, uh, uh,
(34:50):
queer women and lesbian women,so we're talking more rainy
here.
And of course, Gladys Bentley,who I based a, a character off
of which I'm sure we'll get toEl train in a minute.
but, uh, so it was, it wasinteresting to have that kind
of, we are a culture that wasthere and of course, you know,
Langston Hughes was, was part ofthe queer community, um, and a
bunch of other poets andwriters, but then you also had
(35:13):
this other fraction of Harlem,um, which I didn't delve too
much into this book, but we'llbe, and some of the other books
coming up.
Where they wanted it to be seenas respectable.
So they, they did not like thenightlife of Harlem.
They especially did not like thepre-population of Harlem.
They didn't want them to getpressed.
They didn't want them to getattention because they wanted to
(35:34):
be seen as, you know, fineupstanding citizens who didn't
click the law.
So it was a really interestingtime period.
you saw this in otherneighborhoods as well, where
there's this kind of push pullbetween kind of progressive
attitudes.
Um, and more traditionalattitudes.
And I felt like, um, that waskind of a nice, uh, uh, not
allegory, but a nice parallel tokind of what's happening now.
(35:56):
Uh, and it's interesting to seehow in American history we've
always had that this sense ofProgressive's wanting to push
the envelope, push what isacceptable and people kind of
backlashing against it.
Um, but yeah.
there were definitely two setsapart lumps and it, and it was
great to see, you know, to learnabout it because it just makes
it multi-dimension.
And unlike what we learned inhistory, we seem to seem to kind
(36:18):
of look at things in a very flatway and not seeing as something
that's a bit more dimensionaland a bit more complicated than
what's been presented to us
Brad Shreve (36:27):
you mentioned L train.
You mentioned who she's basedafter, which was a question I
was going to ask you now, I wantyou to elaborate a little
further.
I want you to explain to folkswho L train is and who you base
based on
Chris Holcombe (36:42):
Absolutely L train is one of my favorite
characters.
I love her
Brad Shreve (36:45):
mine too.
Chris Holcombe (36:47):
She's so wonderful.
Um, she's, she's going to havea, more of a starring role in
the, in the books to come,because she's just such a big
personality.
So L train is a performer at theoyster house, which is up in one
33rd, and like, in Harlem andshe plays the piano and she is a
big, broad shouldered.
(37:08):
Bush, African-American woman,and she dresses in men's
tuxedos, complete with the tailsand the top hats.
And, uh, she will perform inthis cabaret, which is, uh, a
bit of a Queer cabaret, whichalso has an interracial
audience.
So I really controversial.
And, uh, she will vulgarize.
Popular cabaret songs.
(37:29):
and she took a little Diddy,which was written in 1919 called
Alice blue gown, which was aboutAlice Roosevelt's famous blue
dress.
And, uh, I won't spoil it, butshe makes it about something
completely different andsomething that you can't repeat
in front of your mother.
Brad Shreve (37:44):
I can assure you people.
We're not playing that on theVictrolas, cause you, the lyrics
are in the book and yeah, it
Chris Holcombe (37:53):
But, uh, it's actually
Brad Shreve (37:54):
played to my.
Chris Holcombe (37:56):
yeah, it's actually based off of a song
that Gladys Bentley did, um,actuate.
So, the last versus actually averbatim what she performed.
it was actually written down,and in a book.
So I found it but I had toelaborate on some of the other
verses, But, yeah, so she'sbased off of Gladys Bentley.
As I mentioned before, andGladys Bentley, was, you know,
same, physical build, same stagedemeanor.
(38:18):
She wore men's tuxedos, completewith the top hat.
Um, and she would perform at theclam house.
Uh, so the oyster house is my.
fictionalized version of theclam house.
Um, that was also in heart.
And, uh, fi uh, we play a piano.
She had this big, booming voice.
Um, she would vulgarize popularcabaret songs, but then she
(38:40):
would also make you cry and shewould do a version of St.
James infirmary, blues thatwould just make you weak.
Um, and so she was very famousin the 1920s.
she actually had her own club inHarlem, in the 1930s called the
club a club Uganda.
and she would perform with afull band.
She would also perform with the,uh, chorus of pansies or drag
(39:02):
Queens behind her.
she, uh, performed all over thecountry.
She went out to LA, and she wasa, a personality.
There are some recordings ofher, of that are available
actually on, on streaming usnumber for twenties are, uh,
recordings.
Brad Shreve (39:17):
I want to get now to the other neighborhood in the
story that you brought up alittle earlier, and that was
Greenwich village.
And you brought up that that wasa gay community.
I think of it as a very populargay community in the sixties and
seventies.
And you're saying it was at thattime as well.
W the way you described it, itreminded me of Paris during that
(39:41):
era, uh, with the impressionistpainters and that sort of thing.
Am I right?
That it was very similar in thatsense.
And can tell us about that.
Chris Holcombe (39:51):
Yeah.
Yeah.
it was very similar.
It was called Bohemia, back inthe day.
And that was where all theartists, would go.
And so you had your painters,you had your.
Poets, you had to writers, youknow, your sculptors and what
have you.
and, uh, they, they all kind ofcongregated around the village.
and then within that, there wasa lot of, uh, Queer and LGBTQ
(40:13):
plus culture that was occurring.
so there were lesbian tea rooms,um, as well as queer and gay
speakers.
Greenwich village was a, anartistic center.
Um, it was called Bohemia wasknown as Bohemia amongst a lot
of new Yorkers.
Again, very similarly to whenwhite downtowners would go up to
Harlem, they were summit.
If you went down to the village,you were also slumming it.
(40:35):
Um, it was a big immigrantneighborhood as well.
So we had lots of, Irish andlots of Italians there.
Um, not so much Germans,although they actually started
off, down there and then moved.
Uh, a little bit more to the, tothe upper east side.
but yes, it was a, it was kindof a, a mix of cultures, um, as
well as a mix of, uh,professions.
(40:56):
So you had, you know, theartistic step, but then you also
have the dock workers who werethere.
Um, and it was, uh, a bit of arough and tumble neighborhood.
there was one bar, that was areal speakeasy that had saw dust
on the floor.
and it also had, an actualstuffed, I remember this right.
A stuffed monkey behind the bar,who was a famous circus monkey
(41:16):
that traveled around the nameescapes me, but I'll, I'll,
I'll, I'll let you know when Iremember.
but it was there behind theBard.
It was, uh, a rough kind of bar.
Uh, it was, you know, you wentin there and you didn't mess
around.
And so, you know, if you, if youdid, you, you would, you would
be shown.
Fairly quickly.
I believe that part was calledthe golden goose.
There was a golden goose outfront of it, but yeah, so there
(41:37):
was a building, a lot of itstill today, I just a car crash
of different types of culturesand different types of people
and different types ofprofessions.
Um, and so.
I wanted to try to reflect allof that.
In some ways, your performancealso your political anarchists
were there, your socialists werethere, people who were not fans
(41:58):
of the capitalists and what haveyou.
So, one of the things that I'vefound just investigating this
time period is a hundred yearslater, we're arguing about the
same.
So we're arguing about the roleof women, you know, at, you
know, may shock some of youryounger, listeners, but, you
know, women got to vote, youknow, a scant six years, five
and a half years before thestory starts and there were
(42:20):
voting and oh my God, they'regoing to vote.
And what, what was going tohappen to our political system?
And what was the role of women?
And should they be working?
Why are they working?
Where do they want to work for?
You know, and you know, the, theimmigrants people coming in, you
know, we just fought this worldwar where we don't want.
The immigrants who were leavingEurope, that we pass the
immigrant immigration act of1924, which basically, unless
(42:43):
you were British, you weren'tgetting into country.
we were arguing about, the roleof work, the role of
millionaire.
Harding and Coolidge were verymuch pro millionaire.
Everyone else was against themillionaires.
So I just look at what we arearguing about and talking about
now.
Um, and it's pretty much verysimilar in terms of subject
(43:04):
matter, in terms of tone, thedetails, may have changed, but
we're still arguing aboutthings, stuff, which on one hand
is kind of depressing, but in ahundred years, we're still
there.
but it is kind of fascinating tosee how, This again, push Paul,
you know, it's like three stepsforward, two steps back, three
steps forward, two steps back.
And that's just kind of thehistory of America in a
(43:25):
nutshell.
but Yeah, the village was a veryvocal place, and a very
interesting place, artisticplace diverse place.
Brad Shreve (43:34):
but it, isn't also kind of hip and trendy.
I'm sure I, everywhere in NewYork is expensive, but I know it
is skyrocketed.
I think it's the place to live.
Am I right?
Chris Holcombe (43:45):
Yeah.
And you know, what's interestingis, before, when it was just the
Bohemians, it was kind of dirtcheap.
And then, the wealthy peoplestarted to move in towards
Washington square park, um, andaround that area and it was
starting to drive the rents up,which of course.
Vexed the Bohemians to no end,and how they were just like, why
are you making it more expensiveto live here?
(44:05):
again, it's nothing new underthe sun, but when I read the
letter sections of the newYorker or, uh, uh, the New York
times, The New York residentswere so complaining about the
same stuff.
The subway doesn't run.
The buses are awful.
The rent is too expensive and wehate the landlords.
And again, a hundred yearslater, it's the same, it's the
(44:27):
same thing over and over again.
You know, we're pushing a realnew Yorkers out for these fake
new Yorkers to move in.
So, you know, in the village,there was a lot of ire against
the wealthy coming in becausethey're like, Okay.
you're just pretending to beable humans because it's the hip
thing to do.
But you're not one of us andyou're driving the real people
out of it.
So, that, by the way is the samething.
Now in New York, you know, we'vegot basically, uh, a lot of, uh,
(44:50):
international, wealthy moneycoming in, forcing the real new
Yorkers out.
whereas like, great, you have atax write off in a home.
You're here three weeks out ofthe year.
The rest of us have to now liveoff the island, same stuff,
nothing new, nothing new underthis.
Brad Shreve (45:04):
And it's very similar out here, the Castro and
west Hollywood, while the Castrowas, it wasn't a rundown area,
but it wasn't, exquisite and,gay folks moved in and, started
building up a community andcleaning up these beautiful,
absolutely gorgeous homes.
And all of a sudden those homesare worth a fortune and the
Castro is dying.
(45:25):
Yeah.
I have so many friends that haveleft the Castro and moved to
Palm Springs.
Uh, one it's just too expensiveand too, it's not the same.
Now, if you're in the Castro,you know, you're in the gay
community, don't get me wrong,but it's not as solid as it used
to be.
And it's very similar with westHollywood.
I forget.
(45:46):
I forget what west Hollywood'sname used to be.
It was at the edge of, LosAngeles and it's its own
separate town, but.
Kind of, because it was at theedge of the county, they could
get away with things and, yeah.
Then it developed into westHollywood is what we know as the
Garia and the same thing'shappening there.
I used to spend a lot of time inwest Hollywood now I'm live
quite a ways away.
And my husband and I drovethrough it and we're like, where
(46:09):
did all these condos come from?
And all these, straight peoplewith their strollers and you
know, what's going on here?
It's, we're seeing that happeneverywhere.
And I'm curious, it sounds likethat same thing is happening to
Harlem.
it's redeveloping.
Chris Holcombe (46:22):
Yeah, that is correct.
Yeah.
There's a lot of gentrificationhappening.
Um, and it's, uh, it's a bigtopic here in New York.
Harlem Is definitely beinggentrified.
Brooklyn areas of Brooklyn arebeing gentrified.
and so it's pushing a lot ofthose kinds of communities out.
So there's a conversationhappening about, well, On one
hand, we all like economicsprosperity.
(46:43):
But on the other hand though,like if we just homogenize
everything, like you lose theflavor of what make those, what
made those neighborhoods sospecial and so wonderful.
And also those people who havelived there before, like where,
you know, why do they have toget pushed out of their homes?
And that's their home, you know?
So there's a great, a lot ofconversation.
(47:06):
I won't say a greatconversation.
It's a tense conversation and I,but I think it's a needed one,
to be like, Okay.
how do we find the balance?
because it can't be this extremeof, you know, we've put in a
pottery barn and Starbucks andeverything is just too expensive
and only one.
group of people can live there,you know, of a, of a certain
economic class like that doesn'tseem to be a, a good thing.
(47:28):
So, but it's, it's definitelyhappening here and I'm hoping
that we can find some solutionbecause to me.
New York is a very unique city.
It's a, it's a very diversecity.
Um, and I mean, every culture inthe world is practically here,
but you know, if we go andreplace it with TGI Friday's,
then it's just going to be areally over expensive suburb and
(47:50):
who, the hell wants to add.
Um, so, I would love New York tostay in New York and I want it
to stay weird and wonderful anddiverse.
And so I'm, I'm hoping that, wecan find some sort of solution.
I mean, this city really isfabulous.
I've lived in, in a couple ofdifferent towns and this is by
far one of my things.
and for anyone who wants tovisit, visit, but please don't
(48:11):
go to time square.
That's not New York.
That's for tourists out.
Email me.
I'll tell you where to go.
So you can support new Yorkersand support New York
neighborhoods.
Brad Shreve (48:20):
if you go to Hawaii and only stay in hunter,
Lulu, what the hell you might aswell go to Miami.
Chris Holcombe (48:25):
Yeah.
Brad Shreve (48:25):
But what you're talking about happening in
Harlem is, you know, I thinkit's happening in every city.
the area that I mentionedearlier about Westland.
Had the park is actually nowcalled MacArthur park, that
area.
And it's where, because the rentwas so low, it's a lot of,
first-generation immigrants thatlived there.
But all of a sudden now we'reseeing condos being built.
(48:46):
And I have no doubt in my mind,that's pretty much what it's
going to be in 10 years.
And what's going to happen tothose other folks, where are
they going to go?
And it concerns me.
I hope it's not the street.
Because it's not cheap to livein LA.
It's not cheap to live in LA.
Well, I could go on and on aboutthis, we could do, I could just
make this, the history show,which I've actually considered
(49:08):
as a podcast.
If I ever do that, I'll have youback on.
Well, I have may have back onanyway, when your next book
comes out and I do want to talkabout that.
You have another one coming upthat you're working on and I see
the blind title.
Is going to be the next hiddenGotham novel.
When can we expect that?
Chris Holcombe (49:30):
Um, we're expecting it and December, so
that's, that's our, that's our,our, our date so fairly fast.
but the reason for that?
is because actually in writingthe double vice, uh, when I
first started it, it wasactually three books in one.
Um, I realized I had, I had toomuch.
Because there was so much toplay with and so much to work
with.
And so actually The Double Viceis one-third and so the, uh, The
(49:54):
Blind Tiger is going to be thesecond, third, and then there's
going to be another book thatwill be The third, third.
So, um, so hence the speed onit, but, um, It Raymond for
Christmas.
So it'd be a great stockingstuffer.
and I'm looking forward to it.
Uh, I'm about neck deep in it.
but it's going to be a littlebit of a different story.
So dash Parker is still going tobe, our hero, but here we're
(50:16):
getting into the world ofpoisoned, booze and chemists.
And something that I've teasedin this book that, you know, I'm
going to fully flesh out and theblind tiger and, uh, um, really
kind of delve into more of theprohibition side of it and
actually dealing with the, themedical examiners office.
So, I am going to start talkingabout Charles Norris, who was,
(50:39):
our, coroner and, New York atBellevue hospital.
And he and his partner,Alexander Gettler actually
created the processes that wouldactually become, forensic
medicine and, and in crimesolving.
and so it was that office.
I read a great book called thePoisoner's handbook by Deborah
Bluhm.
Leave him saying her last namecorrectly.
If I'm not, I'm sorry, Deborah,but it's a great book.
(51:01):
And I believe it was made intoa, mini series that just talks
about how they discovered, Howhuman beings died in the city.
Cause back then coroners werepaid by the body and everyone
was corrupt shocker.
So, you know, the coroners wouldbe like, yeah, just pay me
whatever.
And now I'll just process thebody.
So they'd be like, yeah, thisperson died, you know, falling
out of a window and he was shot,you know, like, so there was
(51:23):
there, wasn't a lot of ethicalconsiderations going on.
not to derail a little bit, butuh, we're going to be dealing
with them and that's afascinating history in and of
itself.
So I can't wait to talk aboutthat a little bit later when
that book comes out.
But so yeah, we're going to bedealing with, unfortunately,
some dead flappers, um, some,some poison booze.
Where is it coming from?
(51:43):
Um, and how do we, stop it?
So that's, that's coming up inDecember.
Brad Shreve (51:47):
December, 2021.
And of course I can't let you gobefore we do awkward questions,
authors, get, I can't believe Ialmost forgot.
That,
Chris Holcombe (51:59):
Yeah, no, I have, I have, I I'm I'm I'm
ready for my awkward.
author question.
I can't wait.
Brad Shreve (52:04):
okay, so step back, I'm going to spin the
wheel here and we're going tofind your question.
Okay, Chris, I've got yourquestion.
When are you going to write aNew York times?
Best seller.
Chris Holcombe (52:27):
Oh, gosh, I hope I've already done.
So, um, uh, that's a greatquestion.
Um, Yeah.
Sure the next one, the blindtiger.
That's the one that's going tohit the charts.
That's the one's going to hitthe charts cause you're all are
going to buy it for Christmas.
It's going to make a great gift,um, especially for your
conservative aunts and uncles.
(52:47):
Um, You know, it's funny aboutthis, uh, the author questions,
awkward author questions becauseI used to be a musician,
obviously, um, uh, uh, uh, uh,wanted award, uh, for a song.
I didn't make a dime off thatsong, but I won an award.
So I'm going to champion it.
Every every chance I get, but wewould always get, like, we would
(53:08):
always compare like the awkward,singer songwriter questions
you'd get, you know, and some ofthe stuff that they would ask
you at club owners, do you know?
And, um, I think one of the lastauthors you interviewed on the
show, what was it like, have youwritten anything that I heard
of?
I've gotten that one, in a musicsection.
Have you done anything I'veheard of have done anything I've
seen?
You're like good grief.
Okay.
(53:29):
Um, yes.
That's why I'm playing your divebar, which has 15 drunks in it.
Yes, that's exactly why I'mhere.
Brad Shreve (53:36):
It's like, oh yeah.
I think my next book I'll writea New York by times.
So it's about time.
I did one of those.
Chris Holcombe (53:43):
Hey, by the time I did one of those.
Well, if I did, I'd probablywant to, I probably have to set
it in world war II because worldwar II sells like hotcakes.
So I'll be like done.
We'll write about Nazis.
That seems to be the, the, the,does your forced or crime
fiction, best sellers.
Brad Shreve (54:00):
Okay.
Chris Holcomb, his first novelis The Double Vice I highly
recommended It's available now.
And thank you, Chris.
And for being on the show andfolks, you know what it's going
to be, it's all going to be ontheir show notes to his website
and to buy the book.
And thank you very much, Chris,for being on this.
Chris Holcombe (54:17):
Yeah, thank you very much for having me.
And thank you Justene forfinding my book.
I don't know how she it did, butI'm still glad she did.
Cause then we got introduced.
So this.
has been an absolute honor.
Brad Shreve (54:27):
Lord only knows where she finds these things.
And one last reminder to thelisteners next Saturday, July
24th, 3:00 PM.
Eastern time, 12 noon Pacifictime.
Queer Writers of Crime is goingto be locked.
For the first time, on Tune InRadio, part of the Pride48
network.
(54:48):
And as I said before, we'regoing to have a special guest
reviewer because Justene can'tmake it.
And Marko Realmonte will be onwith some very special news.
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