January 3, 2025 • 35 mins
Accesory posing is something we've all likely done because it's everywhere. But what is it exactly and how can we adjust how we see and practice this?
Learn in this week's episode with Maya of Maya Lovro Photography.
https://mayalovro.com/
Maya's Instagram
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
All right, Queerly Beloved,welcome back to this week's
(00:03):
episode.
I'm super excited to have MayaLoverow Photography with me here
today, and we're gonna chatabout a really interesting topic
that I have been struggling toput into words for a long time.
Um, but before we do that, Iwould just love to Pass the mic
over to you to have youintroduce yourself, your
pronouns, and any identities youwant to share.
(00:26):
Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you so much for having mehere.
Um, my name is Maya Lovro.
My pronouns are they, them, andmy identity is queer.
It's like, I've like got a bunchof labels, but I just go with
queer because at this point it'seasier.
Yes.
I love that.
Yeah.
And so I'm sure people will beable to tell by the information
(00:47):
that you are a photographer, butI would love to hear just a
little bit more about what youdo and yeah, anything you want
to share about that.
Yeah, absolutely.
I'm a wedding photographer.
I also do portraits andfamilies, but mostly weddings.
And I really specialize inworking with clients who are
doing something a little bitdifferent for their day, whether
that's blending cultures thathave different traditions and
(01:08):
trying to figure out how to makethat into one ceremony reception
or inventing something new fromthe ground up, or just like
really don't like the status quoof the wedding industry and
wedding history, and are justtrying to do something
completely unique to what fitstheir lives.
Yes.
Yeah.
I love that.
And I will be sure to link your,your website and Instagram in
(01:31):
the show notes and everyoneshould go check out their work.
Cause it's chef's kiss.
Beautiful.
Awesome.
Well, thank you for sharing alittle bit more about you.
Um, And I would love to justdive right in because, um, I'm
going to say it was maybe like amonth or so ago that I saw this
(01:51):
reel, um, that was featured onanother account, but it was, it
was your content, um, that wastalking about this idea of
accessory posing.
And I'm going to let you kind ofchat about it more, but it's
something that I feel like Soimportant and something that I
feel like both folks thatidentify as queer vendors and
(02:14):
those who don't like it happensacross the board.
And I think it's a really,really important topic.
So, um, can you just start bykind of defining it for us?
Yeah, absolutely.
So accessory posing is a wordthat I made up because I kept
seeing this phenomena in weddingphotography for years and years
and it like bothered me in thesubtle and then less subtle ways
(02:36):
over time and I was like, Idon't think there's like a word
for this and I kept trying totalk to people about it and it's
really actually hard to talk tosomebody about something that
doesn't have a name.
So I just started calling itaccessory posing because it fits
and people kind of get what I'mtalking about pretty quickly.
But what accessory posing is, iswhenever.
You see, in wedding photos, um,it's this like, pervasive, I
(03:00):
don't want to say trend becauseit's not a trend.
It's more like a posing stylethat exists where, um, in a
couple, one partner is used as avisual accessory to the other.
And typically that partnerthat's being used as a visual
accessory is a groom or someonewho's masculine and they're
being used to highlight a bride.
Um, it's just, it, once youstart looking for it, you will
(03:23):
see it absolutely everywhere.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
Um, I, it has bothered me to noend for so long too.
Um, and like, I'm also sayingthat as someone who like very
early in my career probably didit too.
So like, you know, I think it's,it's very easy to like see it
(03:46):
and then you're like, Oh, I sawsomething like this.
So like already create it.
Um, But we also don't want tolike shame anyone, we're just
here to, to learn and to talkabout it.
So, um, yeah, could you givesome, like, obviously this is an
audio podcast, um, but like asbest as you can kind of give us
(04:08):
like a visual of like how thatmight show up in like photos or
videos on a wedding day.
Yeah, absolutely.
And if you do want to see avisual component, um, Love Inc.
actually helped me go in depthwith a very thorough article
that I took some example photosfor, so I'll make sure you get
the link to that to put in theshow notes to really like see
these visual examples.
Um, but what it is, isoftentimes you'll just see like
(04:32):
a groom used as this likeAccessory where either his face
is completely blocked, hisidentity is obscured, he's there
in essence, but he's not therein the photo to be honored like
on his wedding day, he's like,his head's tucked behind, or
he's standing 10 feet back, orlike there's flowers blocking
his face, or he's like, like,there's a groom there to give
(04:53):
context that it's a wedding, butnot there to actually like, You
know, celebrate his own day.
Yes.
Yeah.
Oh gosh, I can, I can see itvery clearly in my mind.
Um, from, from your perspective,why do you think that this
happens and like, why is it soprevalent?
(05:13):
So this is a really nuancedtopic and I actually wrote, um,
when I was writing that pieceabout it, I had this very long,
like, almost essay lengthexplanation to this particular
point.
Yeah.
Um, but to summarize, I think ithappens because of a mix of
various factors that all sort ofrelate back to like the sexism
(05:34):
that exists in the weddingindustry and in culture.
I'm also saying this all througha very like American lens, just
to be clear.
I do not know how this exists ordoesn't exist in other parts of
the world.
I live in Pennsylvania.
I work in the American weddingindustry, so everything is
through that lens specifically.
Yes.
Um, but I think it has to do alot with this, like, bride
(05:56):
worship that we have on weddingdays a lot of times, where it's
like, um, brides kind of, like,Are celebrated like this is like
one of the life milestones thatwomen are allowed to have like
you're allowed to do things likeget Married and then have babies
so you should be super supercelebrated on this day and you
know, like it's almost like it'sweird because it like isn't fair
(06:19):
to grooms in the photo.
Like, they're the ones that geta race, but they're also the
ones that, like, get the socialpower out of it.
So it's, like, this very oddcounterbalance sort of
situation.
Um, I also think a majorcontributing factor is the fact
that men are socially raised tokind of not value themselves in
an associated way.
And also not value themselves inlike a self confidence, like put
(06:43):
yourself forward way forsomething that's not inherently
masculine.
And wedding days tend to be veryfemininely styled.
And so it's like you have this,the soft objects like flowers
and lace and these elements.
And I think men don't know howto like feel comfortable being
very proud of being in thatspace.
(07:04):
And so it's a mix of.
being uncomfortable in front ofthe camera for various reasons,
and then also photographerswanting to really, really focus
on A bride and then a bridewanting to really, really glow
and shine so it's, it's like acombination of things that may
or may not be bad in some way,all culminating in this weird
phenomena.
Yes.
Yeah, absolutely.
(07:25):
Oh my gosh.
I hope I explained that okay.
It's much clearer in thewriting.
Yes.
No, absolutely.
I can totally link link thatarticle, but I was going to say,
you're fantastic with words.
Like, I feel like everything youjust said, I'm like having all
these different, like, wow,there's just so much there.
That's like, very true and veryunfortunate.
(07:48):
Um, yeah, I, I fully agree.
Um, I think something that justpopped in my head too, is like
how much I think, obviouslywe're kind of talking about like
posing and how that.
Can happen in like photo andvideo and stuff, but I feel like
there's an aspect of this thattotally bleeds into like the
(08:10):
wedding day as a whole, right?
That it's like, absolutely.
Um, so yeah, how do you kind ofsee that in like wedding days as
a whole?
Well, I mean, think about like,Photography coverage whenever
you have like couples gettingready in separate spaces.
It's always defaulted to theprimary shooter is with the
bride where the secondaryphotographer is with the groom.
And it's like, not thatsecondary photographers are like
(08:32):
lower skilled or anything, butthey often aren't like the main
person in that photography duo.
And it's like, Yeah, the groomgets the leftovers.
The groom always gets theleftovers.
Cause the day is about the brideprimarily.
And you see it again and again.
And even like, I think of venueswhen there's a getting ready
suite and there's just onegetting ready suite and it's
beautiful and gorgeous and airconditioned and like, has this
(08:52):
like lighted bar so you can doyour makeup and then like the
groom's in like a storm shelterout back.
I've actually seen that happenfor the record.
Like an actual literal stormshelter.
Good, good, good, good.
Oh, gosh.
Yeah.
And I think that it almostbecomes like a whole mindset
(09:13):
then too, that that's somethingthat I run into with a lot of
other vendors who, whether ornot they're like interested in
working with queer couples or,or what have you, I feel like
I've had so many conversationswith other vendors or guests who
are, Like truly bamboozled ifeither a there is no bride like
(09:37):
for example if there's two groomor you know non binary folks
getting married or like ifthere's two brides, then they're
like Well, who am I supposed totalk to more like who's calling
the shots like exactly?
It's so pervasive and yeah, it'sjust kind of wild.
Like think of how many vendors,you know, who would not blink an
(09:59):
eye at a bride being the onlyone on a call, like a planning
call, but would be souncomfortable if like a groom
was the only one on the planningcall.
Yeah.
Yes.
That, that is very true.
Um, yeah, but I think it's suchan interesting point that you
made too, of like, it is such aninteresting thing to discuss
(10:21):
when it's like, I would say westill live in a very, like, male
centered world, in a patriarchalworld.
Um, and I, yeah, I guess also inAmerica specifically.
Yeah, this is all like a veryAmerican conversation.
I would be so curious how thisplays out in other cultures,
like wedding wise, but I justdon't work in those industries.
(10:43):
Totally.
Yeah.
Yeah.
If anyone has any thoughts, feelfree to, to send us a DM.
But, it is kind of sad, like,when you put those things side
by side, like.
Okay, but then yes, this is likeone of the few opportunities
that like, women in our societyget to like, have the spotlight
and like, feel good and feelimportant.
(11:04):
So, oh my gosh, yeah, there'sjust so many.
Yeah, there's like layers, likeevery time you peel something
back on this, you're like, thisis unfair, but like to everybody
and for totally differentreasons, like nobody is winning
here.
Yeah, and I know that in the,um, the reel that.
I saw you kind of talk aboutthis topic.
(11:24):
You said that this accessoryposing was boring and unfair.
Can you tell me a little bitabout that word choice?
Yeah, absolutely.
And I'm going to start this witha caveat that I'll get into
later, but I don't totally avoidaccessory posing in my own work.
So I do use it sometimes andI'll get, I'll get into that,
but I find accessory posing tobe a very boring type of, um,
(11:47):
posing and wedding photography,just because it is.
It's like very uncreative if tome it reads like I was taught to
do this by the person who taughtme how to do wedding photos or I
absorbed this by watching otherwedding photographers and I
never really thought about itand I never really adjusted it
so I'm just going to do itbecause it's what has always
been done it's like someone didit once and we just keep doing
(12:08):
it and I feel like that's why Iwant to talk about it because I
I feel like as soon as you bringit up to someone they're like oh
yeah wait that's like why am Idoing this like there I could be
more creative here um And what'sunfair about it is just like,
whenever you have a wedding, itis two or more people
celebrating their love together.
And I feel like they should beequally honored.
It is both of their day.
(12:29):
And so it's incredibly weirdwhen you're like, scrolling
through a Finnish weddinggallery, and you get like,
third, halfway through, andyou're like, Is there a groom
here?
Like, is there another person?
Like, is this person marryingthemselves?
Like, I've only seen one person.
Um, so it's just like, I feellike, Partners should be equally
represented in their weddingphotos, and that's where I feel
accessory posing is unfair whenit's used in excess and as the
(12:53):
only type of posing.
Yeah, yeah, that's so true.
And I think an interesting thingto, you know, not to just keep
adding more layers, but aninteresting thing to mention too
is that while I do think, youknow, that maybe this primarily
happens with more like straightheteronormative couples.
(13:14):
Like this definitely happens inqueer couples too.
And like speaking from my ownexperience, um, so my partner
and I recently got engaged andwe did our engagement photos
over the summer.
Thank you.
Um, and yeah, in the event thatthe person who took our photos
is listening, this is like noshade to them, but I did get our
(13:37):
gallery back and My partner isvery much so mask.
Um, Even though she uses she herpronouns and I saw that
happening in our photos like itwas very much like and it was
also wild too because weliterally wore the exact same
outfits like we wore white tshirts and blue jeans like We
(14:00):
just kind of were boring likethat.
But like, even in that event, itwas like, I had long hair.
I'm more femme presenting.
And so half of our gallery waslike photos of me looking into
the camera and like her facingthe other way or whatever.
And I was like, this isliterally wild.
Cause.
We're a lesbian couple and Istill see how, how that happens
(14:23):
too.
I'm so sorry that happened toyou.
That's actually like kind of howI first started like coming up
for a phrase for this though.
Was I, it was just like notwedding photos.
It was like random, justportraits, like just photos.
For funsies couples photos thatme and my partner had done once
where this was like reallyheavily prominent and I was like
Oh, that's wildly uncomfortableAnd that's when I started like
(14:44):
noticing it in everyone's workall the time everywhere But you
are totally right like itabsolutely happens and I think
that's another like you werementioning before where like
Photographers who aren't queerfriendly in their work don't
know what to do with queercouples.
Sometimes they're like, what doyou mean?
There's not a boy and a girl.
I don't know how to make thishappen so they'll just start
like It's super imposing theselike posing scripts that are
(15:07):
super gendered and uh accessorybased onto everybody whether or
not it fits them and then itstarts to get really nonsensical
and then you can start to noticelike tension in like shoulders
and everything because peoplejust aren't comfortable in the
positions they're in and it kindof just spirals downwards into
this uh mess of a gallery by theend.
(15:28):
As we slowly maybe transitioninto chatting about like ways
that we can start changing thisin our businesses and things
like that.
Um, I know that you have alreadytalked about it in the podcast
and I believe talked about it alittle bit in the real too,
about how like, there are waysfor this to exist where it's not
necessarily a bad thing.
(15:48):
Cause I'm even thinking abouthow, sometimes when I work with
a couple where one of them.
Is wearing a dress and one ofthem is wearing a suit.
Like there are moments whereit's just genuinely like, okay,
well, like the wind's blowingand like, she's got this cool
train and like, let's give herthis moment.
Like, right.
I think there are still ways tolike highlight people of the
(16:11):
couple.
Um, so it is not inherently bad.
It just.
I think, like you said, itshould be equal, equal for both
of them.
Is that kind of what you weresaying?
Yeah, that's exactly what I'msaying.
So that's kind of what I striveto do in my work is I don't cut
out accessory posing entirelybecause there are moments where
like a more complicated outfitneeds a sort of pose that's
(16:31):
going to show it off in a way orlike you might have You know, 20
photos.
I'm making this number up.
This is not how my photos are inanything.
Like 20 photos of someone in acomplicated dress where you may
have like 10 that cover the sameindividual in solos in a suit
just because dresses inherentlyhave more elements than need
close up detail work than suitsdo often.
So things will kind of beunbalanced just by the outfit
(16:53):
choices and also the cameracomfortability.
Of the couple you're workingwith sometimes people really
don't feel super comfortable SoI would like to get like a good
classic shot with them But likei'm not going to keep pushing
them or where their partnermight be like, yeah Take a
billion photos of me.
I'll do this all day Um, butwhat I really strive to do is if
i'm using an accessory pose forsome reason I'm going to use the
(17:14):
same exact accessory pose in theopposite way almost immediately
after.
So if I'm doing someone tuckingtheir head behind their
partner's face for a kiss on theear, like cheek, temple area,
I'm going to immediately turnaround and be like, all right,
now I'll do it to them.
Like, so if you're notcomfortable doing a pose the
other way, then I would justlike, consider if you're using
(17:35):
that pose for a very good reasonor not.
There's also like, really minoradjustments you can make to fix
like, a lot of the super commonones, like, That one I was just
talking about where like someonetucks their head behind their
partner's face It's always like,you know Like whisper something
in their ear and then they theirpartner turns and it just blocks
their face entirely You can do areally similarly emotionally
(17:57):
impactful image By just havingthem pull their face out a
little bit like have them bringtheir bodies close together Have
them make a V shape like a pairof migrating birds with their
shoulders, but don't have themstick their face behind their
partner's face.
Like you can just have them getclose together, nuzzle their
cheekbones.
It's very similar stylized, likemaybe six inches of different
(18:17):
movement and you can see both oftheir faces.
Yeah.
Wow, that's beautiful.
I hope everyone has a paper andpen and can write that down for
it's always so weird talkingabout such a visual things
because I'm like, I know exactlywhat I'm talking about.
But like, I also stare at photosevery day.
All all day.
Right?
Yes, exactly.
(18:37):
Yeah.
And, um, yeah, that reminds meof something similar that that I
try to do where, like, this isBy no means a groundbreaking
pose, but like, I'll have onecouple, like they'll link arms
and one couple's facing me.
And then one couple has liketheir back towards me.
So it's kind of like, and thenI'll have them flip flop.
So it's like a way to see likethe front and back of both their
(18:59):
outfits or like the front andback of both their hairs or, you
know, whatever it might be.
So yeah, there's so manyoptions.
Um, Like it's just mixing up andadding, taking five seconds to
do the same thing the other way.
And you'll just suddenly havelike, Way more universal posing
that's like super fun foreverybody involved.
Yes.
(19:19):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think something you justsaid kind of inspired me to, um,
you had kind of mentioned thatsome of it can be like based off
of what folks are wearing.
And so I think that that mighteven be a cool way for
photographers, videographers,other vendors to kind of give
them, you know, Some time tolike mentally prep is if you
(19:41):
have a spot, like on yourquestionnaire or in your
conversations with a couplesbeing able to be like, Hey, you
don't have to like, gimme the,you know, show me a photo if you
don't wanna share it yet.
But like, can you looselydescribe what you're wearing so
that I can sort of, you know, beaware of like, okay.
Yeah.
It seems like one of you mighthave a more detailed outfit than
the other, or maybe you bothhave'em.
(20:02):
And um,'cause I think that, thatyou bring up such a good point
that some people do.
Like if there's two suits or twodresses or whatever other combo
people are like, oh my gosh,this is so overwhelming I've
seen so many times wherephotographers that don't work
often with queer couples willhave like a couple that's
(20:23):
wearing two suits and they'lltake like three photos and
they'll be like I don't knowwhat else to do here because
they're just like all theirposes are dress based Or the
opposite of that they'll havelike a couple wearing two
dresses and they'll like goTotally blow through their
portrait time and be like, Ihave too many things to do
because they're trying to doevery single photo they always
do, and they don't know how tocombine it at all, so it's like,
(20:44):
super stressful and I feel, Ifeel really bad, like I don't
want anyone to be in thatposition, so like, You know, I
would like us all to work onthis so everybody can be more
comfortable and chill.
Yes.
Yeah.
Couldn't have said it better.
Everyone needs to be morecomfortable and chill.
That's like my goal in life.
That's like all I want out ofthe wedding industry is everyone
to be more comfortable and likerelax about pen points.
(21:05):
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
Um, so yeah, in addition to, uh,Um, maybe asking folks about
their, their outfits, um, do youhave any tips for folks that
they can start, you know,changing their posing or
shifting their mindset?
Anything like that?
Yeah, absolutely.
(21:25):
So my biggest tip is if younotice that you're doing this a
lot in your work, grab somefriends, like outside of a
wedding day, give yourself atime period that's not timed.
Give yourself just some time toplay with Models, you know, buy
them lunch, pay them money, dowhatever you need to, um, but
just like spend some time reallythinking about your posing and
(21:47):
the poses you do, put them inyour regular pose, audit your
regular poses, try some newones, just really like play
around with it outside of awedding day so that you can go
to your next wedding day with abetter tool sets to kind of it.
Try things and do that a littlebit at the next wedding day and
a little bit more at the nextone.
And after a few, you'll realizeyou have a much more updated
(22:07):
posing repertoire to pull from.
So that's like the biggest tipis just like practice outside of
the wedding day, bring it intoyour work.
Yes.
Yeah.
And I would love to say too thatthink that this is a really
important time for, for folkswho are wanting to change or
like get better at this.
Like this is a great time tolike highlight and elevate like
(22:31):
queer artists and queer vendors,um, to kind of look at their
work, obviously because, youknow, I would say like you and I
are out here like trying to dothe work, but also because like
we have good examples where Ifeel like.
Pinterest and like other kind ofbig resources like that.
So don't, right.
(22:52):
Right.
So definitely I would encourageyou to like, try to look at what
existing queer vendors arealready doing.
Yes.
Like, especially photographerswho are queer themselves.
Like, please look at our work.
Like we, we're not perfect.
We, we still make mistakes too.
Especially like, I rememberearly in my career, I definitely
(23:14):
did some of the more.
Like accessory based poses.
Cause that's like what I wasseeing.
Like I started photographing inWestern Pennsylvania.
We're like 10 years behindvisually anyways, no shade on
Western PA, but also a littleshade, like healthy amount.
Um, but yeah, definitely likelook at.
queer photographers work,especially of queer couples,
(23:36):
like, see how we pose and workwith people of a wild, like,
variety of body types and, uh,cultural backgrounds and heights
and sizes and identities, like,all of this, this is, like, one
of those things where I'm, like,this is, like, a little nuanced
slice of a very large pie, but,um, there's, this conversation
can be expanded upon if youbring in, like, a Mobility
(23:58):
differences and like body sizedifferences and things like that
too.
So that's, we're not eventouching on that.
Oh gosh.
Yeah.
We have to start a whole series.
There's a lot of biases inposing and that's kind of where
this all comes from.
And this is like one veryspecific one that I just would
like people to work on.
Cause it's a super easy one tofix.
And I think just kind of keepshistorically repeating itself
(24:21):
because it's what we'recomfortable with.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think something that justpopped into my mind too is that,
um, I think that those wholisten to the podcast are maybe
a good mix of like queer folksthemselves and then also like
allies and folks interested in,um, kind of changing their
(24:43):
practices.
I feel like just on that note, Iwould like to say like, this
applies across the board.
Like, I know we've talked aboutall kinds of couples, but like,
if you're listening and you'relike, Oh, but I primarily work
with like straight couples whodo kind of present that way.
Like, great.
Like you should be doing this.
(25:04):
And like, when you do that, itbenefits.
Like the wedding industry as awhole.
Do you, do you agree?
Oh my gosh, absolutely.
So that's actually like one ofmy favorite benefits from like
adding this to my posingrepertoire and really auditing
my own posing work is when I amworking with straight couples,
like giving a groom time toshine and like watching his
(25:26):
like, Self confidence just likebubble up like because we've all
seen it We've all seen likegrooms like really like dejected
and like they're there andthey're happy because like they
love their wife And they want tobe there but like they're not
excited for the photos They'relike really dreading like being
like having any attention onthem.
And then like you give them alittle bit of like The same
treatment that you give theirwife and they're suddenly like
(25:48):
oh wait Like this is my day too.
Like I get to celebrate too andit just it makes me feel really
sad But then it also makes mefeel really happy And some of
the photos that i've had myclients Um, my straight clients
actually say like where theirabsolute favorites were ones
where I put a more masculinepartner into like a more
feminine traditional pose inlike a couple's photo and
(26:09):
they're like, wow, like we wouldhave never thought of this, but
like, it's so soft and likereally showed off like a side of
us that, you know, is there, butit's really hard to capture in
photographs because it's notlike a typical pose.
I'm gonna cry.
That's so beautiful.
I have like one in my head rightnow from an engagement session I
did like years ago so it wasthis photo where they both had
starbucks They were both likecuddled up together under these
(26:29):
winter blankets It was supercute and it was just like a very
vulnerable pose Like therewasn't anything super like edgy
or bold about it It was justcuddly and soft and comfy and
like they both just really Lovedit, and I loved it, and I just,
it's, I don't know if I'mexplaining this well, because
I'm again trying to talk about avisual thing, but it was just
(26:50):
like, let, let men be soft.
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
That is so beautiful.
I would, if you feel comfortablesending me that, I would love to
see it.
Yeah, I'll go dig that one outof my archives.
That was like an early one, butI will pull it out of somewhere.
Okay.
Awesome.
Um, I think kind of the lastthing I'd love to touch on is
(27:14):
something that I've heard yousay a few times, which is like,
Auditing your own work.
Um, I think that is reallyreally important and I think we
all need to do it but I feellike it can also be kind of
tough to like do it to yourselfwhere like It could either be
hard to spot things that you'redoing or it could be easy to
(27:35):
like Beat yourself up.
Like I feel like it's just kindof hard to Have any like tips
for that when people are kind oftrying to audit for this?
Yeah, absolutely.
So the biggest tip would be likehave some queer friends and have
them help you but also likeCompensate people if you're not
like if it's not like an actualfriend thing I'm a really really
(27:55):
lucky in that I have like thislittle pod of Photographers and
we all like know each other andlove each other and like support
each other So when we havethings like this where we're
like, hey Like I need someone tolook at my work and tell me this
Am I doing this wrong?
Am I doing this wrong?
Like, technically, or likesomething abstract like this, we
have like people that'll pounceon it and be like, absolutely,
like, I'll look through thiswith a fresh eye.
Um, that kind of thing.
(28:16):
So if you have photographerfriends, like, Have them, enlist
them to help, too.
Trade galleries, like, make itso you look at each other's and
look for things like this, or ifthey have something they're
working on.
But definitely, like, use thatsupport circle, use that friend
circle, use that network.
Um, but if you are doing ityourself, which I think we all
should do ourselves as well, thebiggest thing is don't beat
yourself up.
That's just a waste of time,like, objectively, like, to be
(28:39):
like, oh no, like, I'm doingthis.
I feel really bad about it.
Feel bad for a minute.
And then fix it.
Like that's the best way to goabout it.
Like I've made mistakes.
I catch myself doing thingssometimes.
Um, sometimes I'll fall into apattern.
I'll be on a wedding day and I'mlike, Ooh, that was really
heteronormative and not to mylike personal values.
And then I'll be like, allright, deep breath.
How can we fix it?
(28:59):
We have this many hours left inthe day.
Like I have this chance forportraits.
Like, just like breathe, feelthe feeling move on.
It's the best thing I get, whichis hard to do.
Like, especially if you've gotlike.
You know, like, uh, Catholicguilt, kind of, things built in,
which I feel like a lot ofAmerica has that to struggle
(29:20):
with in some way, or someequivalent, um, some sort of
like religious guilt equivalent,but, yeah, so don't beat
yourself up, do rely on yournetwork, rely on your friends.
And just do it all the time likeit doesn't have to be this big
thing, you know It's be like,all right.
I'm sitting down.
I'm blocking time off Like nojust the next time you're like
looking through your portfoliobe like, all right Let's do a
(29:41):
quick count of these I do thesame thing when I look through
my portfolio I'm like how manyof these are styled shoots how
many are real so I can make surethat the like balance is fair So
it's just like when you'reputting portfolio things up do
another count see how many ofthese are in Outdoor venues how
many are indoor like am Ishowing like a good variety?
How many of these are accessoryposes?
How many of these are not?
Mm hmm Yeah.
(30:03):
Wow.
So wise.
So wise.
I really do not feelparticularly wise.
I just have a lot of opinionsand like to talk about them.
Yes.
No, it's all been so fantastic.
And I feel like everyonehopefully is able to learn so
much from this.
Um, And yeah, it kind of justseems like, in conclusion, like,
(30:29):
this is something that we'retrying to change, um, it doesn't
have to be completelyeradicated, it just needs to be,
like, Equalized in a sense,honestly, I'll just be happy if
everyone just notices it exists.
Like, that is a great 1st step.
Like, if everyone can just like,collectively be like, oh, yeah,
we are doing this.
Oh, my didn't realize it, but weare.
(30:52):
Yes, yeah, absolutely.
And yeah, there's no, there's noshame in the game unless, unless
you're like, ah.
This is dumb.
I'm not going to change them.
Then there's some, yeah, thenthere's shame, but yeah, no,
absolutely.
I, yeah, I just want to echowhat you said of like practice,
(31:13):
like take it one step at a time.
Definitely practice outside of areal shoot.
Like.
Try to make it fun too becauseit should be fun.
It is fun.
It's also like something I'vefound like since I've started
really being aware of accessoryposing is when you take the rule
book away, there is so muchcreativity like things you
didn't realize you could do likeways that you can.
It's not like there's not afinite amount of ways that you
(31:34):
can pose people together, theirpersonalities, the way they
interact, their comfortabilitywith the camera, like everything
can, you can create unique posesfor every single couple you work
with.
Yeah.
Mm hmm.
Big snaps.
Oh, awesome.
Maya, thank you so much forsharing your opinions, your
(31:54):
thoughts, your wisdom.
This has been absolutelyincredible.
Thank you for having me.
This was really fun to talkabout.
I'm excited to, like, be hereand also, like, get this message
out to more people.
I hope this, like, resonateswith people.
I feel like some people aregonna listen to this and be
like, oh my god, thank you.
Like, someone's finally sayingthis and then more people are
gonna be like, oh my gosh, Inever noticed that.
(32:15):
But, like, good point.
Yes.
Yeah.
I totally agree.
And I'm here for both of thosereactions.
Like, I love you all.
Thank you for listening to this.
Yes.
Is there anything else?
You want to share with the crowdbefore we sign off?
Um, I, I've got like a millionthings, so I will just like
(32:35):
leave it with something simple,which is just like, happy
holidays to everybody.
Um, please rest over the winter.
Those of us in the weddingindustry, get some sleep.
Um, And thank you so much forhaving me here.
I will make sure you get thatlink.
If you'd like to read more aboutaccessory posing in a much less
stream of consciousness, muchmore, I actually thought about
this and then edited my writing.
(32:57):
Um, please check out my articlethat I did on Love Inc.
Um, we will put the link in theshow notes.
That feels weird to say.
I've always wanted to say that.
No, I'm excited.
I didn't know that you wrote anarticle, so I'm very excited to
read it.
And um, yes, I will link yourInstagram and your website as
well so people can check youout.
(33:17):
And yeah, oh yeah, if you'relooking for like a super
colorful wedding photographerand like my, what I say and how
I am, please reach out to mebecause I would love to
photograph your wedding.
I always forget that like I'mdoing this and also should plug
myself.
Yes.
Yeah, absolutely.
All right, Queerly Beloved,welcome back to this week's
(00:03):
episode.
I'm super excited to have MayaLoverow Photography with me here
today, and we're gonna chatabout a really interesting topic
that I have been struggling toput into words for a long time.
Um, but before we do that, Iwould just love to Pass the mic
over to you to have youintroduce yourself, your
pronouns, and any identities youwant to share.
(00:26):
Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you so much for having mehere.
Um, my name is Maya Lovro.
My pronouns are they, them, andmy identity is queer.
It's like, I've like got a bunchof labels, but I just go with
queer because at this point it'seasier.
Yes.
I love that.
Yeah.
And so I'm sure people will beable to tell by the information
(00:47):
that you are a photographer, butI would love to hear just a
little bit more about what youdo and yeah, anything you want
to share about that.
Yeah, absolutely.
I'm a wedding photographer.
I also do portraits andfamilies, but mostly weddings.
And I really specialize inworking with clients who are
doing something a little bitdifferent for their day, whether
that's blending cultures thathave different traditions and
(01:08):
trying to figure out how to makethat into one ceremony reception
or inventing something new fromthe ground up, or just like
really don't like the status quoof the wedding industry and
wedding history, and are justtrying to do something
completely unique to what fitstheir lives.
Yes.
Yeah.
I love that.
And I will be sure to link your,your website and Instagram in
(01:31):
the show notes and everyoneshould go check out their work.
Cause it's chef's kiss.
Beautiful.
Awesome.
Well, thank you for sharing alittle bit more about you.
Um, And I would love to justdive right in because, um, I'm
going to say it was maybe like amonth or so ago that I saw this
(01:51):
reel, um, that was featured onanother account, but it was, it
was your content, um, that wastalking about this idea of
accessory posing.
And I'm going to let you kind ofchat about it more, but it's
something that I feel like Soimportant and something that I
feel like both folks thatidentify as queer vendors and
(02:14):
those who don't like it happensacross the board.
And I think it's a really,really important topic.
So, um, can you just start bykind of defining it for us?
Yeah, absolutely.
So accessory posing is a wordthat I made up because I kept
seeing this phenomena in weddingphotography for years and years
and it like bothered me in thesubtle and then less subtle ways
(02:36):
over time and I was like, Idon't think there's like a word
for this and I kept trying totalk to people about it and it's
really actually hard to talk tosomebody about something that
doesn't have a name.
So I just started calling itaccessory posing because it fits
and people kind of get what I'mtalking about pretty quickly.
But what accessory posing is, iswhenever.
You see, in wedding photos, um,it's this like, pervasive, I
(03:00):
don't want to say trend becauseit's not a trend.
It's more like a posing stylethat exists where, um, in a
couple, one partner is used as avisual accessory to the other.
And typically that partnerthat's being used as a visual
accessory is a groom or someonewho's masculine and they're
being used to highlight a bride.
Um, it's just, it, once youstart looking for it, you will
(03:23):
see it absolutely everywhere.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
Um, I, it has bothered me to noend for so long too.
Um, and like, I'm also sayingthat as someone who like very
early in my career probably didit too.
So like, you know, I think it's,it's very easy to like see it
(03:46):
and then you're like, Oh, I sawsomething like this.
So like already create it.
Um, But we also don't want tolike shame anyone, we're just
here to, to learn and to talkabout it.
So, um, yeah, could you givesome, like, obviously this is an
audio podcast, um, but like asbest as you can kind of give us
(04:08):
like a visual of like how thatmight show up in like photos or
videos on a wedding day.
Yeah, absolutely.
And if you do want to see avisual component, um, Love Inc.
actually helped me go in depthwith a very thorough article
that I took some example photosfor, so I'll make sure you get
the link to that to put in theshow notes to really like see
these visual examples.
Um, but what it is, isoftentimes you'll just see like
(04:32):
a groom used as this likeAccessory where either his face
is completely blocked, hisidentity is obscured, he's there
in essence, but he's not therein the photo to be honored like
on his wedding day, he's like,his head's tucked behind, or
he's standing 10 feet back, orlike there's flowers blocking
his face, or he's like, like,there's a groom there to give
(04:53):
context that it's a wedding, butnot there to actually like, You
know, celebrate his own day.
Yes.
Yeah.
Oh gosh, I can, I can see itvery clearly in my mind.
Um, from, from your perspective,why do you think that this
happens and like, why is it soprevalent?
(05:13):
So this is a really nuancedtopic and I actually wrote, um,
when I was writing that pieceabout it, I had this very long,
like, almost essay lengthexplanation to this particular
point.
Yeah.
Um, but to summarize, I think ithappens because of a mix of
various factors that all sort ofrelate back to like the sexism
(05:34):
that exists in the weddingindustry and in culture.
I'm also saying this all througha very like American lens, just
to be clear.
I do not know how this exists ordoesn't exist in other parts of
the world.
I live in Pennsylvania.
I work in the American weddingindustry, so everything is
through that lens specifically.
Yes.
Um, but I think it has to do alot with this, like, bride
(05:56):
worship that we have on weddingdays a lot of times, where it's
like, um, brides kind of, like,Are celebrated like this is like
one of the life milestones thatwomen are allowed to have like
you're allowed to do things likeget Married and then have babies
so you should be super supercelebrated on this day and you
know, like it's almost like it'sweird because it like isn't fair
(06:19):
to grooms in the photo.
Like, they're the ones that geta race, but they're also the
ones that, like, get the socialpower out of it.
So it's, like, this very oddcounterbalance sort of
situation.
Um, I also think a majorcontributing factor is the fact
that men are socially raised tokind of not value themselves in
an associated way.
And also not value themselves inlike a self confidence, like put
(06:43):
yourself forward way forsomething that's not inherently
masculine.
And wedding days tend to be veryfemininely styled.
And so it's like you have this,the soft objects like flowers
and lace and these elements.
And I think men don't know howto like feel comfortable being
very proud of being in thatspace.
(07:04):
And so it's a mix of.
being uncomfortable in front ofthe camera for various reasons,
and then also photographerswanting to really, really focus
on A bride and then a bridewanting to really, really glow
and shine so it's, it's like acombination of things that may
or may not be bad in some way,all culminating in this weird
phenomena.
Yes.
Yeah, absolutely.
(07:25):
Oh my gosh.
I hope I explained that okay.
It's much clearer in thewriting.
Yes.
No, absolutely.
I can totally link link thatarticle, but I was going to say,
you're fantastic with words.
Like, I feel like everything youjust said, I'm like having all
these different, like, wow,there's just so much there.
That's like, very true and veryunfortunate.
(07:48):
Um, yeah, I, I fully agree.
Um, I think something that justpopped in my head too, is like
how much I think, obviouslywe're kind of talking about like
posing and how that.
Can happen in like photo andvideo and stuff, but I feel like
there's an aspect of this thattotally bleeds into like the
(08:10):
wedding day as a whole, right?
That it's like, absolutely.
Um, so yeah, how do you kind ofsee that in like wedding days as
a whole?
Well, I mean, think about like,Photography coverage whenever
you have like couples gettingready in separate spaces.
It's always defaulted to theprimary shooter is with the
bride where the secondaryphotographer is with the groom.
And it's like, not thatsecondary photographers are like
(08:32):
lower skilled or anything, butthey often aren't like the main
person in that photography duo.
And it's like, Yeah, the groomgets the leftovers.
The groom always gets theleftovers.
Cause the day is about the brideprimarily.
And you see it again and again.
And even like, I think of venueswhen there's a getting ready
suite and there's just onegetting ready suite and it's
beautiful and gorgeous and airconditioned and like, has this
(08:52):
like lighted bar so you can doyour makeup and then like the
groom's in like a storm shelterout back.
I've actually seen that happenfor the record.
Like an actual literal stormshelter.
Good, good, good, good.
Oh, gosh.
Yeah.
And I think that it almostbecomes like a whole mindset
(09:13):
then too, that that's somethingthat I run into with a lot of
other vendors who, whether ornot they're like interested in
working with queer couples or,or what have you, I feel like
I've had so many conversationswith other vendors or guests who
are, Like truly bamboozled ifeither a there is no bride like
(09:37):
for example if there's two groomor you know non binary folks
getting married or like ifthere's two brides, then they're
like Well, who am I supposed totalk to more like who's calling
the shots like exactly?
It's so pervasive and yeah, it'sjust kind of wild.
Like think of how many vendors,you know, who would not blink an
(09:59):
eye at a bride being the onlyone on a call, like a planning
call, but would be souncomfortable if like a groom
was the only one on the planningcall.
Yeah.
Yes.
That, that is very true.
Um, yeah, but I think it's suchan interesting point that you
made too, of like, it is such aninteresting thing to discuss
(10:21):
when it's like, I would say westill live in a very, like, male
centered world, in a patriarchalworld.
Um, and I, yeah, I guess also inAmerica specifically.
Yeah, this is all like a veryAmerican conversation.
I would be so curious how thisplays out in other cultures,
like wedding wise, but I justdon't work in those industries.
(10:43):
Totally.
Yeah.
Yeah.
If anyone has any thoughts, feelfree to, to send us a DM.
But, it is kind of sad, like,when you put those things side
by side, like.
Okay, but then yes, this is likeone of the few opportunities
that like, women in our societyget to like, have the spotlight
and like, feel good and feelimportant.
(11:04):
So, oh my gosh, yeah, there'sjust so many.
Yeah, there's like layers, likeevery time you peel something
back on this, you're like, thisis unfair, but like to everybody
and for totally differentreasons, like nobody is winning
here.
Yeah, and I know that in the,um, the reel that.
I saw you kind of talk aboutthis topic.
(11:24):
You said that this accessoryposing was boring and unfair.
Can you tell me a little bitabout that word choice?
Yeah, absolutely.
And I'm going to start this witha caveat that I'll get into
later, but I don't totally avoidaccessory posing in my own work.
So I do use it sometimes andI'll get, I'll get into that,
but I find accessory posing tobe a very boring type of, um,
(11:47):
posing and wedding photography,just because it is.
It's like very uncreative if tome it reads like I was taught to
do this by the person who taughtme how to do wedding photos or I
absorbed this by watching otherwedding photographers and I
never really thought about itand I never really adjusted it
so I'm just going to do itbecause it's what has always
been done it's like someone didit once and we just keep doing
(12:08):
it and I feel like that's why Iwant to talk about it because I
I feel like as soon as you bringit up to someone they're like oh
yeah wait that's like why am Idoing this like there I could be
more creative here um And what'sunfair about it is just like,
whenever you have a wedding, itis two or more people
celebrating their love together.
And I feel like they should beequally honored.
It is both of their day.
(12:29):
And so it's incredibly weirdwhen you're like, scrolling
through a Finnish weddinggallery, and you get like,
third, halfway through, andyou're like, Is there a groom
here?
Like, is there another person?
Like, is this person marryingthemselves?
Like, I've only seen one person.
Um, so it's just like, I feellike, Partners should be equally
represented in their weddingphotos, and that's where I feel
accessory posing is unfair whenit's used in excess and as the
(12:53):
only type of posing.
Yeah, yeah, that's so true.
And I think an interesting thingto, you know, not to just keep
adding more layers, but aninteresting thing to mention too
is that while I do think, youknow, that maybe this primarily
happens with more like straightheteronormative couples.
(13:14):
Like this definitely happens inqueer couples too.
And like speaking from my ownexperience, um, so my partner
and I recently got engaged andwe did our engagement photos
over the summer.
Thank you.
Um, and yeah, in the event thatthe person who took our photos
is listening, this is like noshade to them, but I did get our
(13:37):
gallery back and My partner isvery much so mask.
Um, Even though she uses she herpronouns and I saw that
happening in our photos like itwas very much like and it was
also wild too because weliterally wore the exact same
outfits like we wore white tshirts and blue jeans like We
(14:00):
just kind of were boring likethat.
But like, even in that event, itwas like, I had long hair.
I'm more femme presenting.
And so half of our gallery waslike photos of me looking into
the camera and like her facingthe other way or whatever.
And I was like, this isliterally wild.
Cause.
We're a lesbian couple and Istill see how, how that happens
(14:23):
too.
I'm so sorry that happened toyou.
That's actually like kind of howI first started like coming up
for a phrase for this though.
Was I, it was just like notwedding photos.
It was like random, justportraits, like just photos.
For funsies couples photos thatme and my partner had done once
where this was like reallyheavily prominent and I was like
Oh, that's wildly uncomfortableAnd that's when I started like
(14:44):
noticing it in everyone's workall the time everywhere But you
are totally right like itabsolutely happens and I think
that's another like you werementioning before where like
Photographers who aren't queerfriendly in their work don't
know what to do with queercouples.
Sometimes they're like, what doyou mean?
There's not a boy and a girl.
I don't know how to make thishappen so they'll just start
like It's super imposing theselike posing scripts that are
(15:07):
super gendered and uh accessorybased onto everybody whether or
not it fits them and then itstarts to get really nonsensical
and then you can start to noticelike tension in like shoulders
and everything because peoplejust aren't comfortable in the
positions they're in and it kindof just spirals downwards into
this uh mess of a gallery by theend.
(15:28):
As we slowly maybe transitioninto chatting about like ways
that we can start changing thisin our businesses and things
like that.
Um, I know that you have alreadytalked about it in the podcast
and I believe talked about it alittle bit in the real too,
about how like, there are waysfor this to exist where it's not
necessarily a bad thing.
(15:48):
Cause I'm even thinking abouthow, sometimes when I work with
a couple where one of them.
Is wearing a dress and one ofthem is wearing a suit.
Like there are moments whereit's just genuinely like, okay,
well, like the wind's blowingand like, she's got this cool
train and like, let's give herthis moment.
Like, right.
I think there are still ways tolike highlight people of the
(16:11):
couple.
Um, so it is not inherently bad.
It just.
I think, like you said, itshould be equal, equal for both
of them.
Is that kind of what you weresaying?
Yeah, that's exactly what I'msaying.
So that's kind of what I striveto do in my work is I don't cut
out accessory posing entirelybecause there are moments where
like a more complicated outfitneeds a sort of pose that's
(16:31):
going to show it off in a way orlike you might have You know, 20
photos.
I'm making this number up.
This is not how my photos are inanything.
Like 20 photos of someone in acomplicated dress where you may
have like 10 that cover the sameindividual in solos in a suit
just because dresses inherentlyhave more elements than need
close up detail work than suitsdo often.
So things will kind of beunbalanced just by the outfit
(16:53):
choices and also the cameracomfortability.
Of the couple you're workingwith sometimes people really
don't feel super comfortable SoI would like to get like a good
classic shot with them But likei'm not going to keep pushing
them or where their partnermight be like, yeah Take a
billion photos of me.
I'll do this all day Um, butwhat I really strive to do is if
i'm using an accessory pose forsome reason I'm going to use the
(17:14):
same exact accessory pose in theopposite way almost immediately
after.
So if I'm doing someone tuckingtheir head behind their
partner's face for a kiss on theear, like cheek, temple area,
I'm going to immediately turnaround and be like, all right,
now I'll do it to them.
Like, so if you're notcomfortable doing a pose the
other way, then I would justlike, consider if you're using
(17:35):
that pose for a very good reasonor not.
There's also like, really minoradjustments you can make to fix
like, a lot of the super commonones, like, That one I was just
talking about where like someonetucks their head behind their
partner's face It's always like,you know Like whisper something
in their ear and then they theirpartner turns and it just blocks
their face entirely You can do areally similarly emotionally
(17:57):
impactful image By just havingthem pull their face out a
little bit like have them bringtheir bodies close together Have
them make a V shape like a pairof migrating birds with their
shoulders, but don't have themstick their face behind their
partner's face.
Like you can just have them getclose together, nuzzle their
cheekbones.
It's very similar stylized, likemaybe six inches of different
(18:17):
movement and you can see both oftheir faces.
Yeah.
Wow, that's beautiful.
I hope everyone has a paper andpen and can write that down for
it's always so weird talkingabout such a visual things
because I'm like, I know exactlywhat I'm talking about.
But like, I also stare at photosevery day.
All all day.
Right?
Yes, exactly.
(18:37):
Yeah.
And, um, yeah, that reminds meof something similar that that I
try to do where, like, this isBy no means a groundbreaking
pose, but like, I'll have onecouple, like they'll link arms
and one couple's facing me.
And then one couple has liketheir back towards me.
So it's kind of like, and thenI'll have them flip flop.
So it's like a way to see likethe front and back of both their
(18:59):
outfits or like the front andback of both their hairs or, you
know, whatever it might be.
So yeah, there's so manyoptions.
Um, Like it's just mixing up andadding, taking five seconds to
do the same thing the other way.
And you'll just suddenly havelike, Way more universal posing
that's like super fun foreverybody involved.
Yes.
(19:19):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think something you justsaid kind of inspired me to, um,
you had kind of mentioned thatsome of it can be like based off
of what folks are wearing.
And so I think that that mighteven be a cool way for
photographers, videographers,other vendors to kind of give
them, you know, Some time tolike mentally prep is if you
(19:41):
have a spot, like on yourquestionnaire or in your
conversations with a couplesbeing able to be like, Hey, you
don't have to like, gimme the,you know, show me a photo if you
don't wanna share it yet.
But like, can you looselydescribe what you're wearing so
that I can sort of, you know, beaware of like, okay.
Yeah.
It seems like one of you mighthave a more detailed outfit than
the other, or maybe you bothhave'em.
(20:02):
And um,'cause I think that, thatyou bring up such a good point
that some people do.
Like if there's two suits or twodresses or whatever other combo
people are like, oh my gosh,this is so overwhelming I've
seen so many times wherephotographers that don't work
often with queer couples willhave like a couple that's
(20:23):
wearing two suits and they'lltake like three photos and
they'll be like I don't knowwhat else to do here because
they're just like all theirposes are dress based Or the
opposite of that they'll havelike a couple wearing two
dresses and they'll like goTotally blow through their
portrait time and be like, Ihave too many things to do
because they're trying to doevery single photo they always
do, and they don't know how tocombine it at all, so it's like,
(20:44):
super stressful and I feel, Ifeel really bad, like I don't
want anyone to be in thatposition, so like, You know, I
would like us all to work onthis so everybody can be more
comfortable and chill.
Yes.
Yeah.
Couldn't have said it better.
Everyone needs to be morecomfortable and chill.
That's like my goal in life.
That's like all I want out ofthe wedding industry is everyone
to be more comfortable and likerelax about pen points.
(21:05):
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
Um, so yeah, in addition to, uh,Um, maybe asking folks about
their, their outfits, um, do youhave any tips for folks that
they can start, you know,changing their posing or
shifting their mindset?
Anything like that?
Yeah, absolutely.
(21:25):
So my biggest tip is if younotice that you're doing this a
lot in your work, grab somefriends, like outside of a
wedding day, give yourself atime period that's not timed.
Give yourself just some time toplay with Models, you know, buy
them lunch, pay them money, dowhatever you need to, um, but
just like spend some time reallythinking about your posing and
(21:47):
the poses you do, put them inyour regular pose, audit your
regular poses, try some newones, just really like play
around with it outside of awedding day so that you can go
to your next wedding day with abetter tool sets to kind of it.
Try things and do that a littlebit at the next wedding day and
a little bit more at the nextone.
And after a few, you'll realizeyou have a much more updated
(22:07):
posing repertoire to pull from.
So that's like the biggest tipis just like practice outside of
the wedding day, bring it intoyour work.
Yes.
Yeah.
And I would love to say too thatthink that this is a really
important time for, for folkswho are wanting to change or
like get better at this.
Like this is a great time tolike highlight and elevate like
(22:31):
queer artists and queer vendors,um, to kind of look at their
work, obviously because, youknow, I would say like you and I
are out here like trying to dothe work, but also because like
we have good examples where Ifeel like.
Pinterest and like other kind ofbig resources like that.
So don't, right.
(22:52):
Right.
So definitely I would encourageyou to like, try to look at what
existing queer vendors arealready doing.
Yes.
Like, especially photographerswho are queer themselves.
Like, please look at our work.
Like we, we're not perfect.
We, we still make mistakes too.
Especially like, I rememberearly in my career, I definitely
(23:14):
did some of the more.
Like accessory based poses.
Cause that's like what I wasseeing.
Like I started photographing inWestern Pennsylvania.
We're like 10 years behindvisually anyways, no shade on
Western PA, but also a littleshade, like healthy amount.
Um, but yeah, definitely likelook at.
queer photographers work,especially of queer couples,
(23:36):
like, see how we pose and workwith people of a wild, like,
variety of body types and, uh,cultural backgrounds and heights
and sizes and identities, like,all of this, this is, like, one
of those things where I'm, like,this is, like, a little nuanced
slice of a very large pie, but,um, there's, this conversation
can be expanded upon if youbring in, like, a Mobility
(23:58):
differences and like body sizedifferences and things like that
too.
So that's, we're not eventouching on that.
Oh gosh.
Yeah.
We have to start a whole series.
There's a lot of biases inposing and that's kind of where
this all comes from.
And this is like one veryspecific one that I just would
like people to work on.
Cause it's a super easy one tofix.
And I think just kind of keepshistorically repeating itself
(24:21):
because it's what we'recomfortable with.
Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think something that justpopped into my mind too is that,
um, I think that those wholisten to the podcast are maybe
a good mix of like queer folksthemselves and then also like
allies and folks interested in,um, kind of changing their
(24:43):
practices.
I feel like just on that note, Iwould like to say like, this
applies across the board.
Like, I know we've talked aboutall kinds of couples, but like,
if you're listening and you'relike, Oh, but I primarily work
with like straight couples whodo kind of present that way.
Like, great.
Like you should be doing this.
(25:04):
And like, when you do that, itbenefits.
Like the wedding industry as awhole.
Do you, do you agree?
Oh my gosh, absolutely.
So that's actually like one ofmy favorite benefits from like
adding this to my posingrepertoire and really auditing
my own posing work is when I amworking with straight couples,
like giving a groom time toshine and like watching his
(25:26):
like, Self confidence just likebubble up like because we've all
seen it We've all seen likegrooms like really like dejected
and like they're there andthey're happy because like they
love their wife And they want tobe there but like they're not
excited for the photos They'relike really dreading like being
like having any attention onthem.
And then like you give them alittle bit of like The same
treatment that you give theirwife and they're suddenly like
(25:48):
oh wait Like this is my day too.
Like I get to celebrate too andit just it makes me feel really
sad But then it also makes mefeel really happy And some of
the photos that i've had myclients Um, my straight clients
actually say like where theirabsolute favorites were ones
where I put a more masculinepartner into like a more
feminine traditional pose inlike a couple's photo and
(26:09):
they're like, wow, like we wouldhave never thought of this, but
like, it's so soft and likereally showed off like a side of
us that, you know, is there, butit's really hard to capture in
photographs because it's notlike a typical pose.
I'm gonna cry.
That's so beautiful.
I have like one in my head rightnow from an engagement session I
did like years ago so it wasthis photo where they both had
starbucks They were both likecuddled up together under these
(26:29):
winter blankets It was supercute and it was just like a very
vulnerable pose Like therewasn't anything super like edgy
or bold about it It was justcuddly and soft and comfy and
like they both just really Lovedit, and I loved it, and I just,
it's, I don't know if I'mexplaining this well, because
I'm again trying to talk about avisual thing, but it was just
(26:50):
like, let, let men be soft.
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
That is so beautiful.
I would, if you feel comfortablesending me that, I would love to
see it.
Yeah, I'll go dig that one outof my archives.
That was like an early one, butI will pull it out of somewhere.
Okay.
Awesome.
Um, I think kind of the lastthing I'd love to touch on is
(27:14):
something that I've heard yousay a few times, which is like,
Auditing your own work.
Um, I think that is reallyreally important and I think we
all need to do it but I feellike it can also be kind of
tough to like do it to yourselfwhere like It could either be
hard to spot things that you'redoing or it could be easy to
(27:35):
like Beat yourself up.
Like I feel like it's just kindof hard to Have any like tips
for that when people are kind oftrying to audit for this?
Yeah, absolutely.
So the biggest tip would be likehave some queer friends and have
them help you but also likeCompensate people if you're not
like if it's not like an actualfriend thing I'm a really really
(27:55):
lucky in that I have like thislittle pod of Photographers and
we all like know each other andlove each other and like support
each other So when we havethings like this where we're
like, hey Like I need someone tolook at my work and tell me this
Am I doing this wrong?
Am I doing this wrong?
Like, technically, or likesomething abstract like this, we
have like people that'll pounceon it and be like, absolutely,
like, I'll look through thiswith a fresh eye.
Um, that kind of thing.
(28:16):
So if you have photographerfriends, like, Have them, enlist
them to help, too.
Trade galleries, like, make itso you look at each other's and
look for things like this, or ifthey have something they're
working on.
But definitely, like, use thatsupport circle, use that friend
circle, use that network.
Um, but if you are doing ityourself, which I think we all
should do ourselves as well, thebiggest thing is don't beat
yourself up.
That's just a waste of time,like, objectively, like, to be
(28:39):
like, oh no, like, I'm doingthis.
I feel really bad about it.
Feel bad for a minute.
And then fix it.
Like that's the best way to goabout it.
Like I've made mistakes.
I catch myself doing thingssometimes.
Um, sometimes I'll fall into apattern.
I'll be on a wedding day and I'mlike, Ooh, that was really
heteronormative and not to mylike personal values.
And then I'll be like, allright, deep breath.
How can we fix it?
(28:59):
We have this many hours left inthe day.
Like I have this chance forportraits.
Like, just like breathe, feelthe feeling move on.
It's the best thing I get, whichis hard to do.
Like, especially if you've gotlike.
You know, like, uh, Catholicguilt, kind of, things built in,
which I feel like a lot ofAmerica has that to struggle
(29:20):
with in some way, or someequivalent, um, some sort of
like religious guilt equivalent,but, yeah, so don't beat
yourself up, do rely on yournetwork, rely on your friends.
And just do it all the time likeit doesn't have to be this big
thing, you know It's be like,all right.
I'm sitting down.
I'm blocking time off Like nojust the next time you're like
looking through your portfoliobe like, all right Let's do a
(29:41):
quick count of these I do thesame thing when I look through
my portfolio I'm like how manyof these are styled shoots how
many are real so I can make surethat the like balance is fair So
it's just like when you'reputting portfolio things up do
another count see how many ofthese are in Outdoor venues how
many are indoor like am Ishowing like a good variety?
How many of these are accessoryposes?
How many of these are not?
Mm hmm Yeah.
(30:03):
Wow.
So wise.
So wise.
I really do not feelparticularly wise.
I just have a lot of opinionsand like to talk about them.
Yes.
No, it's all been so fantastic.
And I feel like everyonehopefully is able to learn so
much from this.
Um, And yeah, it kind of justseems like, in conclusion, like,
(30:29):
this is something that we'retrying to change, um, it doesn't
have to be completelyeradicated, it just needs to be,
like, Equalized in a sense,honestly, I'll just be happy if
everyone just notices it exists.
Like, that is a great 1st step.
Like, if everyone can just like,collectively be like, oh, yeah,
we are doing this.
Oh, my didn't realize it, but weare.
(30:52):
Yes, yeah, absolutely.
And yeah, there's no, there's noshame in the game unless, unless
you're like, ah.
This is dumb.
I'm not going to change them.
Then there's some, yeah, thenthere's shame, but yeah, no,
absolutely.
I, yeah, I just want to echowhat you said of like practice,
(31:13):
like take it one step at a time.
Definitely practice outside of areal shoot.
Like.
Try to make it fun too becauseit should be fun.
It is fun.
It's also like something I'vefound like since I've started
really being aware of accessoryposing is when you take the rule
book away, there is so muchcreativity like things you
didn't realize you could do likeways that you can.
It's not like there's not afinite amount of ways that you
(31:34):
can pose people together, theirpersonalities, the way they
interact, their comfortabilitywith the camera, like everything
can, you can create unique posesfor every single couple you work
with.
Yeah.
Mm hmm.
Big snaps.
Oh, awesome.
Maya, thank you so much forsharing your opinions, your
(31:54):
thoughts, your wisdom.
This has been absolutelyincredible.
Thank you for having me.
This was really fun to talkabout.
I'm excited to, like, be hereand also, like, get this message
out to more people.
I hope this, like, resonateswith people.
I feel like some people aregonna listen to this and be
like, oh my god, thank you.
Like, someone's finally sayingthis and then more people are
gonna be like, oh my gosh, Inever noticed that.
(32:15):
But, like, good point.
Yes.
Yeah.
I totally agree.
And I'm here for both of thosereactions.
Like, I love you all.
Thank you for listening to this.
Yes.
Is there anything else?
You want to share with the crowdbefore we sign off?
Um, I, I've got like a millionthings, so I will just like
(32:35):
leave it with something simple,which is just like, happy
holidays to everybody.
Um, please rest over the winter.
Those of us in the weddingindustry, get some sleep.
Um, And thank you so much forhaving me here.
I will make sure you get thatlink.
If you'd like to read more aboutaccessory posing in a much less
stream of consciousness, muchmore, I actually thought about
this and then edited my writing.
(32:57):
Um, please check out my articlethat I did on Love Inc.
Um, we will put the link in theshow notes.
That feels weird to say.
I've always wanted to say that.
No, I'm excited.
I didn't know that you wrote anarticle, so I'm very excited to
read it.
And um, yes, I will link yourInstagram and your website as
well so people can check youout.
(33:17):
And yeah, oh yeah, if you'relooking for like a super
colorful wedding photographerand like my, what I say and how
I am, please reach out to mebecause I would love to
photograph your wedding.
I always forget that like I'mdoing this and also should plug
myself.
Yes.
Yeah, absolutely.
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