March 12, 2025 • 17 mins
This episode contains some light spoilers up to The Fires of Heaven.
The Queers of Time got the amazing opportunity to interview Rafe Judkins, the showrunner of the Wheel of Time TV show on Prime Video. Tune in on March 13th for the third season of the Wheel of Time.
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Intro and outro music by Julius H.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kat (00:06):
Hello everyone.
James (00:07):
Welcome to the Queers of Time Podcast.
Matt (00:10):
I'm Mat.
James (00:11):
I'm James.
Camille (00:12):
I'm Camille,
Kat (00:13):
and I'm Kat
Matt (00:14):
and this is a podcast to talk about all the gay stuff in
the Wheel of Time,
Camille (00:18):
because we're gay and we like the Wheel of Time.
(00:42):
And as always, thank you to allFeral Venerators of Siuraine:
Charlie, John, and Lurkz. Andalso to our lovely patrons and
everyone who sent us nicemessages over those years. We
love making this podcast, butyou're one of the reasons why we
are continuing this adventure.
So thank you very much. Onanother note, something pretty
incredible happened to us lastweek. I still can't really
(01:06):
believe it. As the Queers ofTime, we had the opportunity to
interview Rafe Judkins, theshowrunner of the Wheel of Time
TV show on Amazon Prime video.
It was really awesome. We weresuper excited. Coming up with
questions was kind of a processand a lot of fun. We were a bit
(01:26):
nervous. Rafe was very sweet,and is an amazing person. We had
lovely time chatting with him.
Anyway. Without further ado,here's our Queers of Time
interview with Rafe Judkins.
Rafe Judkins (01:41):
I'm so excited to get to talk to you guys.
Matt (01:43):
Well, we are so excited to talk to you. It's, we're just a
little gay, and we always,always love talking to you know,
queer Wheel of Time relatedissues and fun facts and stuff.
Rafe Judkins (01:57):
Me too. I am also a Queer of Time.
James (02:03):
Yeah, I mean, just to get things started, the Wheel of
Time resonates with a lot ofqueer readers for a lot of
different reasons. As a gay man,kind of what resonates with you
when you read the Wheel of Time?
I
Rafe Judkins (02:13):
I mean, you know, I think I've been talking about
this a lot today, is that forme, I love fantasy books, I read
all of them. I read Lord of theRings with my dad. He would like
page through it to my brotherand I when we were kids. But
there was something about theWheel of Time when I read it
where I felt like I could seemyself in the pages for the
first time in a different waythan I ever could before. And
(02:38):
you know, even though some ofthe queer relationships in the
books are more, you know,subdued or wink-wink-nod-nod,
they're like, they're there, youknow, those relationships are
there. And to me, they read likebig billboards, like, oh my god,
Moiraine is a lesbian, and sheloves the Amyrlin Seat, you
know, like, that's. It readslike a billboard to you when
(03:01):
you're a queer kid growing up.
And so for me, it's always beenreally important to try to find
a way to bring those stories tolife in the show as well, and to
bring a multiplicity of them tolife in the show. Because I
think that's one of, one of thethings that, honestly, the books
did extraordinarily well for thetime that they came out. And,
(03:21):
you know, I think we should betrying to do extraordinarily
well for the time that we comeout, too. And so, you know,
that's always been somethingthat I and the other writers
have have viewed as a reallyimportant aspect of our job.
James (03:37):
Great, thank you.
Camille (03:39):
Yeah, and in a similar way regarding the books. So we
are talking about queerrelationships here, but our
understanding of gender has alsoevolved a lot since the books
were written. And how do youbalance what we know about
gender now with the binarynature of gender in the books,
(03:59):
and do non binary peopleactually have a place in in your
Wheel of Time, at least?
Rafe Judkins (04:05):
Yeah, I think that they do. Because I feel like
that there is a, you know, onething that's really interesting
about the Wheel of Time books isthat they do explore so many
different kinds of culturesaround the world and different
approaches to women and men andgender that you you aren't used
to seeing, and that aredifferent and surprising. And so
(04:26):
I do think one thing we've kindof consciously tried to do on
the show that is different fromthe books, is, is break down the
gender binary that exists insuch a hard way in the books,
and sort of find a way to useeverything that's in the books,
but talk about it in a way toothat feels more authentic to
(04:49):
like our experience of the worldtoday. I think there's an
interesting scene in seasonthree where Moiraine and Rand
talk about the One Power and inthe books, you know. There's
Saidin and Saidar, which existin the show as well. And they
talk about, she asks, how youcan hold so much of it like if
you submit yourself to it, won'tit just wash you away. And he
(05:13):
says, don't submit to it. Idon't know if the White Tower
knows everything about Saidinand Saidar. I don't know if they
know everything about this thingcalled the One Power. And so
that's something that you'll seeus kind of like repeatedly doing
through this season. There's atrans actor who plays an Aes
Sedai in the White Tower.
There's just a number of thingswe're sort of doing throughout
(05:34):
the season, not not trying tomake like build big billboards
or sign posts around it, but totry to, like, show very
consciously that our approach togender in this world is slightly
different than it was in thebooks. But still, you know,
really trying to bring to life,like the heart of what I think
(05:55):
you know, was being attempted inthe books, which was to do a
complicated and nuanced take on,on, on gender in the world.
Camille (06:05):
Yeah. Thank you very much for, for that. It's really
nice to to hear that there's aconscious effort, yeah, on that
side.
Rafe Judkins (06:12):
For sure, we talk about it a lot of the writers
room, and we have, you know, allkinds of different people, both
binary and non in the writersroom. So, you know, it's
something we talk about a lot.
Kat (06:22):
Yeah, that's really cool to hear, you know, especially
because it's cool to seeourselves represented,
especially in fantasy on screen.
Because you, since we're talkingabout Moiraine, you know, we
have to talk about, ask aboutMoiraine and Siuan, one of the
favorite relationships on theshow, just, I guess, kind of
going back, how did you make thedecision to bring their sort of
(06:46):
relationship to the forefront inthe show, and what can we expect
to see from them in seasonthree? Because they left Season
Two in kind of a precarioussituation, let's say.
Rafe Judkins (06:59):
Yes, you know, I think Moiraine and Siuan from
the beginning of the show thatwas that was like, something
that was very important to me todo is bring that relationship to
life. Because when I was a kidand read it, I was like, Oh my
God, these lesbians, andthey're, like, central to the
entire plot of the thing, andlike, they're everything, and
she's the Amyrlin Seat and likeand they love each other. This
is crazy that this exists. Iguess some people read the books
(07:23):
and didn't think they werelesbians, but it's pretty clear
that they are. And so I feltlike, you know, that was
important to me in bringing itto the show, and also like that
relationship is very importantto both of those characters in
the books, and so I think seeingthem actually in love with each
other on screen only deepensthat, and like lets you feel the
(07:46):
pain of what they're up againsttoo, which is that they, you
know, they're two women who loveeach other, but they've been
called to a very high duty forthe world, and them struggling
between their duty to the worldand everyone who lives in it,
versus their love for each otheris, is something that like
(08:09):
really grabs at your heart, Ithink, and I think that they're,
they're two women who are, youknow, extremely powerful
characters who are verycommitted to their duties, and
so it's a big and naturalstruggle for them to have with
their relationship. And it wasone thing we wanted to see
brought to life a little bitmore in season two, and
(08:31):
something that Rosamund andSophie had asked for as well,
was just trying to see wherethey conflict with each other,
where, you know, these thesewomen are on very different
paths in some way, even thoughthey're supposed to be united in
their path. And so how, howmight they come up against each
other in conflict? And I thinkseason three, sort of, it
(08:52):
continues to play along thosethemes of what have happened to
them in the past, and like, can,can their love survive their
duty? And, you know, that's aquestion that you still see
asked in season three.
Matt (09:07):
Yeah, I love Siuan and Moiraine or Siuaraine, and I
can, I can tell that there's somuch love and care that goes
into portraying therelationship. It feels like a
fan of the show is in charge,and you are a fan. And I think
it's, it's awesome that you getto have that position, but I'm
wondering how different is Rafethe fan versus Rafe the
(09:29):
showrunner, and how do youbalance those roles and their
differences when you're decidingwhat book material to cut or
alter? And I'm thinkingspecifically of The Shadow
Rising. It's a massive book, andit's, it's, how's that going to
shape out?
Rafe Judkins (09:45):
It's huge, because there's things, you know, like,
I'm a fan of the books. I lovethem. Everyone who's a fan of
the books. I think these booksare very unique, and that the
fandom understands that thispiece of them is unique, and
that, like, people have verydifferent favorite pieces of
them. There are people who likeflipped over every Egwene
chapter to get to Perrinchapters, and then people who
(10:06):
flipped over every Perrinchapter to get to Egwene
chapters, or at least flippedforward to see how much, how
much farther they had to go. Andso I think, you know, that's an
inherent piece of what we'redoing, is trying to balance
that. And I can't just do myfavorite things from the book, I
have to do, you know, like dothe books themselves and the
(10:28):
series themselves justice. Sothere are moments that like
weren't very iconic to me, likeMat fighting Galad and Gawin was
not an iconic moment in thebooks to me, but it is an iconic
moment in the books. And so Italk to a lot of people about
why it's iconic to them, whatmatters to them in it, like,
what why it means something tothem emotionally. And then we,
(10:52):
you know, and it's about thiskid from the Two Rivers, sort of
like giving the middle finger tothe upper class, in a way. And
so we really tried to achievethat when we brought the scene
to life and, like, set it in ourshow, with our characters and
how they're doing it, but, buttry to give it the same
emotional takeaway that madepeople love it in the book. So,
you know, so I try to do thatfor the scenes that I I didn't
(11:15):
connect to as much, but I knoware very important. And
likewise, you know, I there'sthings that I just love in the
books that are not in the show,that is those are really hard
sometimes to cut, but you youhave to do it, and you have to
be would only have these eighthours, and I love these
characters, and we have to tryto find a way to do them
(11:37):
justice. And so, you know, youhave to make tough decisions
sometimes, and we, I'm lucky. Ihave a lot of other amazing
writers around me, like JustineGilmer is, you know, the voice
of Moiraine and Siuan, and putso much of herself into those
scenes. And you know, like somuch of their relationship comes
from her and her beautifulwriting. So, you know, a lot of
writers on the show, you know,put themselves into these
(12:00):
characters in these scenes too.
Kat (12:02):
Yeah, that's awesome. And you know, just thinking about
iconic characters and iconicscenes. We got, we're getting
Elaida a little bit later thanshe appears in the books. She is
one of my favorite characters inall of her glorious mess. And so
can we expect to see that sortof messy antagonist, but thinks
(12:25):
she's a hero, but is she? Can weexpect to see that translated
into the show?
Rafe Judkins (12:31):
Yeah, I mean, we got Shohreh to play her, so you
know that we're gonna do messyand fun and big and Elaida is
gonna be all the things thatpeople loved about her in the
books, and all the things thatpeople hated about her in the
books. I mean, Shohreh just has,she just has a field day with
this character. I'm so excitedfor people to see what she does
(12:51):
with her. And I think she, youknow, one of the things that's
always the most interesting tome about Elaida is that she is
not a darkfriend. You know, shedoes some of the most horrible
things that any character in ourbooks do, and she does them
thinking that she's doing theright thing. And I think that
(13:12):
makes her extremely interesting.
And so we've put a lot of thatinto the season two. You,
hopefully the audience will beable to take away that this is a
woman who believes she's in theright even when she's doing just
the craziest shit.
James (13:26):
No, that's awesome.
Speaking of some other iconiccharacters or iconic
relationships, I guess. Way backin September 2018 you mentioned
that you were more interested inpolyamory than polygamy when it
comes to Rand's relationships.
We've recently gotten a still ofElayne and Aviendha looking at
each other, smirking, sharing adrink. I guess my question is
(13:47):
like, dare we hope?
Rafe Judkins (13:49):
I would say, hope.
James (13:51):
Okay, awesome. I am happy with that answer.
Rafe Judkins (13:54):
Tune in tomorrow.
I think you, you're you will seeyour hopes realized tomorrow.
Camille (14:00):
Oh, we are definitely turning in tomorrow. On a
different topic, the villains,especially the Forsaken in the
Wheel of Time, are very campy,both in the books and in the
show. Can we expect even more ofthat campiness in season three?
Rafe Judkins (14:15):
Yeah, of course. I mean, I think that that's what
makes the Forsaken so fun. Webut I do think one of the things
we do try to do with them aswell is find emotional grounding
for them. Even Ishamael andLanfear in season two, it's
always important to us that youkind of like understand where
they're coming from. EvenMoghedien, who's sort of like
(14:37):
most psychotic of them, you knowyou understand and Laia Costa
brings in her performance whyshe does not like being called
weak and and you understand thatinsecurity in her, and I think
you see it at large with Laia'sperformance on screen too. So we
do, you get all the camp of ofthe Forsaken, which is what we
(14:59):
know and love. But. I do thinkin season three, you also get to
understand a little bit more oftheir emotional underpinnings
too, and their relationshipswith each other, which I think
are fascinating.
Matt (15:10):
Yeah, I love the Forsaken.
As a long time follower of campygay villains, I love what the
show has done with them. And soI have a fun fact, followed by
sort of some two questions. Andthey're silly questions. So
considering that Robert Jordansaid that between 30 to 50% of
the population of Randland isqueer. How on earth do you fit
(15:34):
straight people into the Wheelof Time show, I mean, that seems
like a pretty tall order. Andsecond, it's a challenge. It's a
challenge. Sorry, I can let youfinish that one. And the second
is, and this might be just awatch and find out, but how gay
can we expect my favoriteforsaken Asmodean to be if he is
(15:54):
in the show?
Rafe Judkins (15:59):
Oh, that might be a watch and find out, but I
think that, I think that itwould be strange if 30 to 50% of
the people in the Wheel of Timeare gay, and that wouldn't
include the Forsaken as well.
Camille (16:17):
And that's it. I hope you enjoyed this interview with
Rafe Judkins. I know we had alot of fun. Obviously, please
tune in for the third season ofthe Wheel of Time coming up on
Prime Video on March 13. Like I,I'm recording that the day after
the virtual fan screening of thefirst episode of the season
(16:38):
three. I'm still, you know, veryemotional about it, and I think
we're gonna have a lot of funwith the, with this third
season. So yeah, I hope you allare excited. Thank you very much
for listening to this episode ofthe Queers of Time.As always,
you can support us on Patreon,and you can find us on most
social media platforms, and bymost, I mean Bluesky, Tumblr and
(17:02):
Discord. Join our Discord so wecan be gay and happy during this
third season of the Wheel ofTime. And yes, see you next
time. Bye. Thank you all forlistening. This was Queer of
Time, a Wheel of Time podcast.
The music is Dance of Thewitches by Julius H.
Hello everyone.
James (00:07):
Welcome to the Queers of Time Podcast.
Matt (00:10):
I'm Mat.
James (00:11):
I'm James.
Camille (00:12):
I'm Camille,
Kat (00:13):
and I'm Kat
Matt (00:14):
and this is a podcast to talk about all the gay stuff in
the Wheel of Time,
Camille (00:18):
because we're gay and we like the Wheel of Time.
(00:42):
And as always, thank you to allFeral Venerators of Siuraine:
Charlie, John, and Lurkz. Andalso to our lovely patrons and
everyone who sent us nicemessages over those years. We
love making this podcast, butyou're one of the reasons why we
are continuing this adventure.
So thank you very much. Onanother note, something pretty
incredible happened to us lastweek. I still can't really
(01:06):
believe it. As the Queers ofTime, we had the opportunity to
interview Rafe Judkins, theshowrunner of the Wheel of Time
TV show on Amazon Prime video.
It was really awesome. We weresuper excited. Coming up with
questions was kind of a processand a lot of fun. We were a bit
(01:26):
nervous. Rafe was very sweet,and is an amazing person. We had
lovely time chatting with him.
Anyway. Without further ado,here's our Queers of Time
interview with Rafe Judkins.
Rafe Judkins (01:41):
I'm so excited to get to talk to you guys.
Matt (01:43):
Well, we are so excited to talk to you. It's, we're just a
little gay, and we always,always love talking to you know,
queer Wheel of Time relatedissues and fun facts and stuff.
Rafe Judkins (01:57):
Me too. I am also a Queer of Time.
James (02:03):
Yeah, I mean, just to get things started, the Wheel of
Time resonates with a lot ofqueer readers for a lot of
different reasons. As a gay man,kind of what resonates with you
when you read the Wheel of Time?
I
Rafe Judkins (02:13):
I mean, you know, I think I've been talking about
this a lot today, is that forme, I love fantasy books, I read
all of them. I read Lord of theRings with my dad. He would like
page through it to my brotherand I when we were kids. But
there was something about theWheel of Time when I read it
where I felt like I could seemyself in the pages for the
first time in a different waythan I ever could before. And
(02:38):
you know, even though some ofthe queer relationships in the
books are more, you know,subdued or wink-wink-nod-nod,
they're like, they're there, youknow, those relationships are
there. And to me, they read likebig billboards, like, oh my god,
Moiraine is a lesbian, and sheloves the Amyrlin Seat, you
know, like, that's. It readslike a billboard to you when
(03:01):
you're a queer kid growing up.
And so for me, it's always beenreally important to try to find
a way to bring those stories tolife in the show as well, and to
bring a multiplicity of them tolife in the show. Because I
think that's one of, one of thethings that, honestly, the books
did extraordinarily well for thetime that they came out. And,
(03:21):
you know, I think we should betrying to do extraordinarily
well for the time that we comeout, too. And so, you know,
that's always been somethingthat I and the other writers
have have viewed as a reallyimportant aspect of our job.
James (03:37):
Great, thank you.
Camille (03:39):
Yeah, and in a similar way regarding the books. So we
are talking about queerrelationships here, but our
understanding of gender has alsoevolved a lot since the books
were written. And how do youbalance what we know about
gender now with the binarynature of gender in the books,
(03:59):
and do non binary peopleactually have a place in in your
Wheel of Time, at least?
Rafe Judkins (04:05):
Yeah, I think that they do. Because I feel like
that there is a, you know, onething that's really interesting
about the Wheel of Time books isthat they do explore so many
different kinds of culturesaround the world and different
approaches to women and men andgender that you you aren't used
to seeing, and that aredifferent and surprising. And so
(04:26):
I do think one thing we've kindof consciously tried to do on
the show that is different fromthe books, is, is break down the
gender binary that exists insuch a hard way in the books,
and sort of find a way to useeverything that's in the books,
but talk about it in a way toothat feels more authentic to
(04:49):
like our experience of the worldtoday. I think there's an
interesting scene in seasonthree where Moiraine and Rand
talk about the One Power and inthe books, you know. There's
Saidin and Saidar, which existin the show as well. And they
talk about, she asks, how youcan hold so much of it like if
you submit yourself to it, won'tit just wash you away. And he
(05:13):
says, don't submit to it. Idon't know if the White Tower
knows everything about Saidinand Saidar. I don't know if they
know everything about this thingcalled the One Power. And so
that's something that you'll seeus kind of like repeatedly doing
through this season. There's atrans actor who plays an Aes
Sedai in the White Tower.
There's just a number of thingswe're sort of doing throughout
(05:34):
the season, not not trying tomake like build big billboards
or sign posts around it, but totry to, like, show very
consciously that our approach togender in this world is slightly
different than it was in thebooks. But still, you know,
really trying to bring to life,like the heart of what I think
(05:55):
you know, was being attempted inthe books, which was to do a
complicated and nuanced take on,on, on gender in the world.
Camille (06:05):
Yeah. Thank you very much for, for that. It's really
nice to to hear that there's aconscious effort, yeah, on that
side.
Rafe Judkins (06:12):
For sure, we talk about it a lot of the writers
room, and we have, you know, allkinds of different people, both
binary and non in the writersroom. So, you know, it's
something we talk about a lot.
Kat (06:22):
Yeah, that's really cool to hear, you know, especially
because it's cool to seeourselves represented,
especially in fantasy on screen.
Because you, since we're talkingabout Moiraine, you know, we
have to talk about, ask aboutMoiraine and Siuan, one of the
favorite relationships on theshow, just, I guess, kind of
going back, how did you make thedecision to bring their sort of
(06:46):
relationship to the forefront inthe show, and what can we expect
to see from them in seasonthree? Because they left Season
Two in kind of a precarioussituation, let's say.
Rafe Judkins (06:59):
Yes, you know, I think Moiraine and Siuan from
the beginning of the show thatwas that was like, something
that was very important to me todo is bring that relationship to
life. Because when I was a kidand read it, I was like, Oh my
God, these lesbians, andthey're, like, central to the
entire plot of the thing, andlike, they're everything, and
she's the Amyrlin Seat and likeand they love each other. This
is crazy that this exists. Iguess some people read the books
(07:23):
and didn't think they werelesbians, but it's pretty clear
that they are. And so I feltlike, you know, that was
important to me in bringing itto the show, and also like that
relationship is very importantto both of those characters in
the books, and so I think seeingthem actually in love with each
other on screen only deepensthat, and like lets you feel the
(07:46):
pain of what they're up againsttoo, which is that they, you
know, they're two women who loveeach other, but they've been
called to a very high duty forthe world, and them struggling
between their duty to the worldand everyone who lives in it,
versus their love for each otheris, is something that like
(08:09):
really grabs at your heart, Ithink, and I think that they're,
they're two women who are, youknow, extremely powerful
characters who are verycommitted to their duties, and
so it's a big and naturalstruggle for them to have with
their relationship. And it wasone thing we wanted to see
brought to life a little bitmore in season two, and
(08:31):
something that Rosamund andSophie had asked for as well,
was just trying to see wherethey conflict with each other,
where, you know, these thesewomen are on very different
paths in some way, even thoughthey're supposed to be united in
their path. And so how, howmight they come up against each
other in conflict? And I thinkseason three, sort of, it
(08:52):
continues to play along thosethemes of what have happened to
them in the past, and like, can,can their love survive their
duty? And, you know, that's aquestion that you still see
asked in season three.
Matt (09:07):
Yeah, I love Siuan and Moiraine or Siuaraine, and I
can, I can tell that there's somuch love and care that goes
into portraying therelationship. It feels like a
fan of the show is in charge,and you are a fan. And I think
it's, it's awesome that you getto have that position, but I'm
wondering how different is Rafethe fan versus Rafe the
(09:29):
showrunner, and how do youbalance those roles and their
differences when you're decidingwhat book material to cut or
alter? And I'm thinkingspecifically of The Shadow
Rising. It's a massive book, andit's, it's, how's that going to
shape out?
Rafe Judkins (09:45):
It's huge, because there's things, you know, like,
I'm a fan of the books. I lovethem. Everyone who's a fan of
the books. I think these booksare very unique, and that the
fandom understands that thispiece of them is unique, and
that, like, people have verydifferent favorite pieces of
them. There are people who likeflipped over every Egwene
chapter to get to Perrinchapters, and then people who
(10:06):
flipped over every Perrinchapter to get to Egwene
chapters, or at least flippedforward to see how much, how
much farther they had to go. Andso I think, you know, that's an
inherent piece of what we'redoing, is trying to balance
that. And I can't just do myfavorite things from the book, I
have to do, you know, like dothe books themselves and the
(10:28):
series themselves justice. Sothere are moments that like
weren't very iconic to me, likeMat fighting Galad and Gawin was
not an iconic moment in thebooks to me, but it is an iconic
moment in the books. And so Italk to a lot of people about
why it's iconic to them, whatmatters to them in it, like,
what why it means something tothem emotionally. And then we,
(10:52):
you know, and it's about thiskid from the Two Rivers, sort of
like giving the middle finger tothe upper class, in a way. And
so we really tried to achievethat when we brought the scene
to life and, like, set it in ourshow, with our characters and
how they're doing it, but, buttry to give it the same
emotional takeaway that madepeople love it in the book. So,
you know, so I try to do thatfor the scenes that I I didn't
(11:15):
connect to as much, but I knoware very important. And
likewise, you know, I there'sthings that I just love in the
books that are not in the show,that is those are really hard
sometimes to cut, but you youhave to do it, and you have to
be would only have these eighthours, and I love these
characters, and we have to tryto find a way to do them
(11:37):
justice. And so, you know, youhave to make tough decisions
sometimes, and we, I'm lucky. Ihave a lot of other amazing
writers around me, like JustineGilmer is, you know, the voice
of Moiraine and Siuan, and putso much of herself into those
scenes. And you know, like somuch of their relationship comes
from her and her beautifulwriting. So, you know, a lot of
writers on the show, you know,put themselves into these
(12:00):
characters in these scenes too.
Kat (12:02):
Yeah, that's awesome. And you know, just thinking about
iconic characters and iconicscenes. We got, we're getting
Elaida a little bit later thanshe appears in the books. She is
one of my favorite characters inall of her glorious mess. And so
can we expect to see that sortof messy antagonist, but thinks
(12:25):
she's a hero, but is she? Can weexpect to see that translated
into the show?
Rafe Judkins (12:31):
Yeah, I mean, we got Shohreh to play her, so you
know that we're gonna do messyand fun and big and Elaida is
gonna be all the things thatpeople loved about her in the
books, and all the things thatpeople hated about her in the
books. I mean, Shohreh just has,she just has a field day with
this character. I'm so excitedfor people to see what she does
(12:51):
with her. And I think she, youknow, one of the things that's
always the most interesting tome about Elaida is that she is
not a darkfriend. You know, shedoes some of the most horrible
things that any character in ourbooks do, and she does them
thinking that she's doing theright thing. And I think that
(13:12):
makes her extremely interesting.
And so we've put a lot of thatinto the season two. You,
hopefully the audience will beable to take away that this is a
woman who believes she's in theright even when she's doing just
the craziest shit.
James (13:26):
No, that's awesome.
Speaking of some other iconiccharacters or iconic
relationships, I guess. Way backin September 2018 you mentioned
that you were more interested inpolyamory than polygamy when it
comes to Rand's relationships.
We've recently gotten a still ofElayne and Aviendha looking at
each other, smirking, sharing adrink. I guess my question is
(13:47):
like, dare we hope?
Rafe Judkins (13:49):
I would say, hope.
James (13:51):
Okay, awesome. I am happy with that answer.
Rafe Judkins (13:54):
Tune in tomorrow.
I think you, you're you will seeyour hopes realized tomorrow.
Camille (14:00):
Oh, we are definitely turning in tomorrow. On a
different topic, the villains,especially the Forsaken in the
Wheel of Time, are very campy,both in the books and in the
show. Can we expect even more ofthat campiness in season three?
Rafe Judkins (14:15):
Yeah, of course. I mean, I think that that's what
makes the Forsaken so fun. Webut I do think one of the things
we do try to do with them aswell is find emotional grounding
for them. Even Ishamael andLanfear in season two, it's
always important to us that youkind of like understand where
they're coming from. EvenMoghedien, who's sort of like
(14:37):
most psychotic of them, you knowyou understand and Laia Costa
brings in her performance whyshe does not like being called
weak and and you understand thatinsecurity in her, and I think
you see it at large with Laia'sperformance on screen too. So we
do, you get all the camp of ofthe Forsaken, which is what we
(14:59):
know and love. But. I do thinkin season three, you also get to
understand a little bit more oftheir emotional underpinnings
too, and their relationshipswith each other, which I think
are fascinating.
Matt (15:10):
Yeah, I love the Forsaken.
As a long time follower of campygay villains, I love what the
show has done with them. And soI have a fun fact, followed by
sort of some two questions. Andthey're silly questions. So
considering that Robert Jordansaid that between 30 to 50% of
the population of Randland isqueer. How on earth do you fit
(15:34):
straight people into the Wheelof Time show, I mean, that seems
like a pretty tall order. Andsecond, it's a challenge. It's a
challenge. Sorry, I can let youfinish that one. And the second
is, and this might be just awatch and find out, but how gay
can we expect my favoriteforsaken Asmodean to be if he is
(15:54):
in the show?
Rafe Judkins (15:59):
Oh, that might be a watch and find out, but I
think that, I think that itwould be strange if 30 to 50% of
the people in the Wheel of Timeare gay, and that wouldn't
include the Forsaken as well.
Camille (16:17):
And that's it. I hope you enjoyed this interview with
Rafe Judkins. I know we had alot of fun. Obviously, please
tune in for the third season ofthe Wheel of Time coming up on
Prime Video on March 13. Like I,I'm recording that the day after
the virtual fan screening of thefirst episode of the season
(16:38):
three. I'm still, you know, veryemotional about it, and I think
we're gonna have a lot of funwith the, with this third
season. So yeah, I hope you allare excited. Thank you very much
for listening to this episode ofthe Queers of Time.As always,
you can support us on Patreon,and you can find us on most
social media platforms, and bymost, I mean Bluesky, Tumblr and
(17:02):
Discord. Join our Discord so wecan be gay and happy during this
third season of the Wheel ofTime. And yes, see you next
time. Bye. Thank you all forlistening. This was Queer of
Time, a Wheel of Time podcast.
The music is Dance of Thewitches by Julius H.
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