March 11, 2025 • 30 mins
SPONSOR: Briefcase Marketing
Racism remains a destructive and persistent evil infecting our nation despite many promising strides toward equality and justice. It is still a sin that divides many. What does church teaching tells us about racism and how does faith offer solutions to this complex issue.
Some highlights:
• Racism arises when a person holds their race as superior and judges others as inferior, leading to exclusion or discrimination
• The bishops' 2018 letter "Open Wide Our Hearts" explicitly states that racist acts are sinful because they violate justice
• Dr. James Knight explains race as a social construct designed to separate and rank people
• Looking at everyone through the lens of being created in God's image helps move beyond racism
• The civil rights movement was fundamentally religious, rooted in shared dignity given by God
• Modern polarization prevents meaningful conversation about race and other divisive issues
• Humility enables us to listen to others' experiences and practice empathy across differences
• Racism exists not just in individuals but has crept into systems requiring structural change
• Most people occupy the middle ground between extremes but aren't represented in media narratives
• Creating partnerships across community lines allows for co-created solutions to racial division
• Simple actions like inviting people from different backgrounds to social gatherings builds bridges
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Church search goes Ecumenical! Dr Knight is the Pastor at HouseofHealing.org
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Whose vision was this ?
To set all this up, kind ofours with communications, yeah,
that's cool.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Just anything we can do to have a broader reach.
Speaker 3 (00:10):
Yeah and be relevant, right, Mm-hmm, all right, here
we go.
Three, two, one.
On today's question of faith isracism still a sin?
Hey, everybody, this isQuestion of Faith.
I'm Deacon Mike Hayes.
(00:30):
I am the Director of YoungAdult Ministry here in the
Diocese of Cleveland.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
And I'm Father Damian Ferencz, the Vicar for
Evangelization.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Hi, I'm the guest.
I'm Dr James Knight, withLeading with Humility and also
Pastor Church in Elyria, Ohiocalled House of Healing Awesome,
very nice, dr Knight welcomeback to 1404 here at the Diocese
of Cleveland.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
We've been friends for some time, but this is your
first time on the podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
True, it's excellent, and I'm the director of
ecumenical relations here alsoat the diocese, which I forgot
to say up front, which is verycool yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
I think it's the first time we've had a
non-Catholic pastor on our show.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
I think you're right.
So if we had a bell we wouldring it.
So is racism a sin.
We wanted to start out talkingabout that.
Boy, times are rough, huh.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Either we're racists all the time or we're not racist
at all.
Right, in the United States,and we live in a country and in
a space that is very polarizedright now.
So, as Deacon Mike just said,in terms of the race
conversation, there are thosewho will say that racism is the
biggest problem in the UnitedStates and then there are those
who will say that there is norace problem in the United
States.
There are those who will saythat we need to open the borders
completely and those will sayshut down the borders completely
(01:49):
.
There are those who will saygovernment programs will solve
every problem and others willsay we don't need any government
program.
So we live in a time that ishighly polarized and what we're
hoping to do on this particularpodcast is to offer the nuance
and be in the space in betweenwhere we can talk intelligently,
listen respectfully andactually dig down below the
(02:13):
ideological talk to the realissues at hand here.
Where real people live, right,right, right, and I understand
the way that the media works.
People get angry or they getafraid, and that's what drives
headlines and that's what drivesclicks and all that.
And that's why we don't have amillion listeners every week,
because we do try to offer thenuance and have rational,
(02:36):
intelligent, sober conversationshere.
So let's start with a churchdocument.
Uscc put out this document in2018 called Open Wide Our Hearts
the Enduring Call to Love APastoral Letter Against Racism.
And so let's just answer thequestion right off the bat.
As bishops of the CatholicChurch in the United States, we
(02:56):
want to address one particularlydestructive and persistent evil
.
Despite many promising stridesin our country, racism still
infects our nation.
And then the bishops writeracism arises when, either
consciously or unconsciously, aperson holds that his or her own
race or ethnicity is superiorand therefore judges persons of
(03:17):
other races or ethnicities asinferior and unworthy of equal
regard.
When this conviction orattitude leads individuals,
groups, to exclude, ridicule,mistreat or unjustly
discriminate against persons onthe basis of the race or
ethnicity, it is sinful.
Racist acts are sinful becausethey violate justice.
(03:39):
So there's the answer to ourquestion Is racism a sin?
Still a sin?
Yes, it is.
And then I guess the nextquestion is well, what do we do
about it and how do we talkabout it?
If that's the case, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
What do you think, james?
Speaker 1 (03:54):
That's a great question, you know.
I was doing a session out inShaker.
A bunch of churches cametogether and a lady elderly she
was saying like when are wegoing to get beyond race?
And I said that's a greatquestion, you know, because when
(04:14):
we think about it from abiblical perspective, there's
only one race and the idea ofrace is a social construct, of
race is a social construct andit's important for us to
understand that, to understandthat it was invented to separate
people, rank people and soforth.
And so if it was invented tosay this person is at the top of
(04:39):
the food chain, this person isat the bottom, the question that
we have to throw up and thinkabout is well, as long as we
keep playing on this playgroundcalled race, if it was designed
to favor some and not others,will we ever get to a place
where we're able to make senseand kind of?
(05:00):
all play together and so forth.
I'm not sure.
That is a very complicatedquestion, but I do think that
the Bible has the answers, thatour faith has the answer that if
we think about everybody beingcreated in the image and
likeness of God and we try tolook at each other through that
faithful lens, I think it doeshelp for us to move beyond that
(05:21):
sin of racism and to be able toregard each other.
I think we forget that too,like the civil rights movement
was fundamentally a religiousmovement.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
It was certainly about giving people rights, but
it sprung from deep within thecore of people's religious
beliefs that God gives us alldignity.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Yeah, and Martin Luther King Jr was Reverend
Martin Luther King Jr and knewhis scripture very well.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Yeah, and did a good job of like when, in letter to a
Birmingham from a Birminghamjail, like he took on his fellow
companions and said how comeyou all have never preached
about racism?
Yeah, it's like I don't know ifI've ever heard a homily about
racism.
Now that I think about it,maybe more recently, since we've
been talking about this in theheadlines, but I know I've only
(06:07):
been a deacon for a year.
I'm sure I have not preached onit.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
I have.
I was thinking when you saidwe're one race, it's the human
race, and if racism is a sin andit is, then the solution to
that sin is also the solution toall the other sins which you
pointed to in the scriptures,which is Jesus, who came to take
away the sins of the world andto heal.
So can you talk a little bitabout how that works?
(06:33):
Because a lot of times we wantto solve our problems
politically.
Political problems needpolitical answers.
But we're more than justpolitical people.
We're also theological people,we're spiritual people.
So how does the faith, how doesscripture, how does Christ
enter into the mess of thisparticular sin?
Speaker 1 (06:55):
I think the challenge is that we have a culture that
has moved away from going tochurch and kind of embracing
that in their life.
I think sometimes we're in acontemporary society where it's
like I'll just fit Jesus in whenit's convenient, versus
allowing Jesus to kind of be thedriver with a lot of our
(07:20):
decisions and so forth, becausefor me I think Jesus kind of
settles the dispute right.
We turn to church teaching, weturn to the Word of God.
That kind of helps us to getover what I feel.
Well, I see it this way.
Well, if we all see it adifferent way, truth is kind of
(07:40):
supposed to be that highersource of authority.
Church teaching is supposed tokind of say hey, all right, I
know, you feel this way, youfeel that way.
Well, what does God say aboutthis right?
What does the Scripture teachus?
Well, what does God say aboutthis right?
What does the Scripture teachus?
And so now the challenge forthe church is how do we continue
(08:02):
to be relevant in a world thatis polarized, in a world that
doesn't always want to hear whatGod has said and so forth?
And so I think we needmodern-day prophets who can kind
of decode the word in a waythat people can hear it and
receive it, that resonates withthem, that makes sense to say,
(08:23):
oh, okay, but that's been kindof what I've been trying to do
and I think that's how I've beenable to be effective.
I don't I don't necessarily sayJesus and say church teaching,
but when I go into a lot oforganizations to talk about how
do we come together, I use a lotof teaching around humility and
(08:43):
what the scripture says abouthumility.
And the funny thing is that youknow I'm at a business or I'm
talking about why humility isthe thing that grounds us, to
help us to hear each other'sperspective and practice empathy
.
And people are like I love this, it makes sense, it feels right
, but it's just coming fromchurch teaching.
You know what I mean.
(09:04):
We can't come together if wedon't get beyond ourself to
listen, and I think that's halfthe battle is that we're not
hearing each other.
Like some of the things thatI've read and documents that
have come out, you know, withthis political discourse that's
happening nationally, is thatI'm reading this.
(09:26):
I'm like that's not what'smeant by this and it's like both
sides don't understand eachother.
So how can we have anintelligent conversation when
both sides have amisunderstanding of what the
other side is trying to say.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
I agree, and this is exactly why I wanted to do this
particular topic, and I alsothink sometimes, because of lack
of humility, both sides areunwilling to listen to what the
other is experiencing orunderstanding, to enter into
what Pope Francis would call adialogue, a situation of
dialogue and walking together tounderstand the other person.
(10:01):
And if you're just shouting allthe time and you're not
actually listening, then it's abreakdown of communication and
it builds barriers betweenpeople and communities, even
yeah, or even with the best ofintentions, right, like
sometimes we resort to boxchecking.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
You know, well, we did this little thing now on
racism, so now we don't have toworry about it anymore.
Like when I was a collegeadministrator, I thought we were
doing a really good job on thisright.
I thought we welcomed people tocollege campuses, that we made
sure that they were cared for,that they had opportunities,
that everything seemed on aneven playing field.
And then we actually askedpeople our alumni and people at
(10:38):
the school how are we doing this?
And they were like yeah, youguys are terrible.
And we're like wait what Like no, and when we listened to them,
we were like, yeah, all right,you're right, we are terrible at
this and I'm not laughing at it, it's just like we're all blind
, Like you know, I don't knowthe experience that somebody
else is having while they'rehaving it.
(11:00):
I only know my own experience.
I think we're doing a good job,but I have to listen more to
see if we actually are.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Yeah, I mean that's good.
I mean, you think about?
The gospel is a story abouthumility to a large extent.
God says, hmm, they'restruggling down there.
He says, you know what, maybeI'm going to become God
incarnate, right, I'm going tobecome one of them, right, I'm
going to get closer to thesituation to understand.
(11:27):
And I think that's whatleadership is about.
Effective leadership is reallyactive listening.
I've read something somewherebefore, I'm not sure who said it
, but they said listening is anact of love.
And I think to really hear andto really be able to be heard is
a privilege.
(11:47):
And I think we've got to go toScripture and look at the
Gospels and think about why wasJesus born in a manger, and
think about why was Jesus born?
in a manger.
You know, why was this callingof our Lord to those who are
marginalized right?
And so we got to think aboutwhat does that mean in this
context?
(12:08):
How do we balance power?
You know, when we have animbalance of power?
Because oftentimes somebody isinvisible, somebody is not being
seen, they're not being heard,they're not being valued.
And so I think, now more thanever in this political climate,
just in the culture that we livein, it requires a great deal of
(12:29):
empathy to really put ourselvesin someone else's shoes.
And I stand in the gap becauseI believe God's given us the
ministry of intercession to beable to say all right, you know,
god, I just pray that bothsides have a heart to hear and
to receive, because when I seethose on the far right, their
(12:50):
vision is to make it better, andthen those that are way on the
other left, they feel like theirvision is to make it better.
And that's the challenge,because both people believe that
they have a solution to do that.
But humility says that if we'regoing to do it, we do have to
come to the table and we do haveto figure out what do we agree
on, and you know, I've talked toRepublicans, democrats, people
(13:13):
that are nothing, peopleeverything in between, and one
thing I have found is thateverybody wants the world to be
safe.
Everybody wants it to be safefor the kids.
They want it to be better.
So there's a lot of things thatwe do agree on, and sometimes I
just wonder if it's the smallminority that just has so much
(13:34):
power over the media andinfluence, because when you live
and you're just out theretalking to your family and your
friends and so forth, mostpeople are just in the middle.
They don't agree with this,they don't agree with that.
They're just like I just wantto be seen and be respected.
Right, keep it simple.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
They just feel lost.
There's nowhere to call home.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
But again, as we like said when we let off the show,
it's the extremes that get themost attention because, those
are the, the voices that arewell, they're the loudest, but
it's also by by the very factthat they are the extreme
they're the ones that get theattention.
And the people living um in themiddle are often ignored.
And again, again, our podcastdoesn't get millions of hits
(14:19):
because we don't necessarily gofor the shock like shocking that
we have Dr Knight on the showtoday.
We try to have goodconversations about really
important things and I alsothink as a culture we don't know
how to sit and talk and haveconversations.
We're so distracted by ourphones we're just reading a
headline that we actually don'tread an entire article or listen
(14:41):
to a whole conversation or havea family meal or get together
and do what human beings aresupposed to do, and because of
that we become less humanSoundbites.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
The other thing too.
I think that you know, racismdoesn't just occur in the minds
of you know four or five peopleor even just individuals, right,
you know, these things kind ofcreep into systems, you know,
and Catholic social teaching haskind of gotten us into that.
You know, I was part of aparish at one point where we did
charity really, really well,like there were very generous
folks that were always giving oftheir time.
They're always giving of their,of their money to various
causes.
But if you wanted them to sitdown and talk about, you know
(15:22):
well what are the injusticesthat are causing these things.
They're like whoa, wait aminute.
You know, I don't want any partof that.
You know that's going to taketoo long.
Nobody got time for that kindof thing and I think that's
something that Catholicism inparticular, I think can really
get into.
It's not, it's not justindividualistic at this point.
(15:47):
It's creeped into systems andthose systems need to kind of
change at a variety of levels.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
I also think we need to change the narrative, like
they said.
You know, when I was working onmy doctorate degree, they said
one of the ways you try to fightany ism is oftentimes you have
to tell different stories.
Sometimes people are tellingthe same story over and over and
over and over again and it maynot be reflective of what's
(16:18):
really out there.
And so when you hear the samestory over and over and over
again, it impacts how you see it, it impacts even what you
believe about it, and so youknow.
For example, there's ascripture in Romans 10, 17.
It says faith comes by hearingand hearing by the word of God.
And if you really analyze that,you can say fear comes by
(16:41):
hearing too right.
Like.
What we believe oftentimes isthat, man, we're living in a
culture that shapes, you know,our beliefs, our values, but is
from the stories that we read.
So I had recently done a fewsessions with some police
departments and I began to havethese conversations with them
(17:04):
about humility and they were soopen, right, and so I'm like
would you guys be interested inhaving these conversations
around different cultures,different communities?
They're like of course we wouldlove that, right, because
there's a misunderstanding, sothis story is not told right.
Oftentimes the one story we seeis that all cops are this way,
(17:25):
right, or that all, whoever itis, are one way.
So I think we have to telldifferent stories.
We have to see pastors ofdifferent racial backgrounds and
different cultures andcommunities coming together.
Whether or not you're Catholicor I'm Lutheran or whatever
people, I really think need tosee people come together saying
(17:49):
there are things that we doshare in common, and we have to
give people a template of whatit means to come together and
put some of our own agenda asidefor the greater victory.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
I told Deacon Mike.
I mentioned this a few times.
I grew up in Parma and I didnot travel a lot until 1997.
I went to France for WorldYouth Day.
John Paul II called all theyouth of the world together and
it was the first time in mywhole young adult life that I
saw people from every continentspeaking all sorts of different
(18:23):
languages and it was the firsttime I understood I was part of
a universal church and it wasthe first time I understood I
was part of a universal church.
But gathering together one Lord,one baptism, receiving, like
the word of God, eating his bodyand blood, and the unity that
took place among that diversityblew my mind and I was so happy
to be.
And that's the church at herbest.
(18:44):
And so we have that as a model.
I mean Pentecost, when the HolySpirit came down on the
apostles.
They were sent out to allcorners of the world not to
separate but to gather togetherdiversity of culture under one
banner, our one Lord who comesto save all.
So it's already baked into whowe are as Christians, who we are
(19:05):
as Christians and, as you say,a lot of times we forget the
spiritual aspect of this and itcertainly informs the political,
but it's not simply political,and I think that's a really
important thing to remember aswe move forward here.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
And I think eventually we have to be
involved in politics at somelevel, oh yeah.
I mean, you know otherwise,we're just talking to ourselves.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
No, we are, but it's never apart from.
It's not like we spin off ourtheology.
This is the salt, light andleaven.
It's what we add to thepolitical discourse that we have
in particular.
So we're not making anything up, or it's not that these two are
separated.
It is that we are bringing ourtheology, we are bringing our
(19:47):
spirituality to our politicallife.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Yeah, and could it be that problems are getting so
bad that God might just besaying, hey, I'm going to bring
the church and state togetheragain?
Hmm, right, because think aboutit, right, there was a point
when oftentimes the religiousspiritual leaders had access to
(20:14):
the king, or whoever?
had power, and they were.
They had, they had the abilityto give those in power, the
political parties, a spiritualperspective so that they could
include that right, and so Ithink that's been missing right.
It's like, oh, separation ofchurch and state.
(20:34):
Well, when everybody wastalking about this DI
conversation, that we shouldinclude everybody, that people
should be able to feel safe andbe able to share what they feel.
You know what I felt traveling?
Christians didn't feel that way.
Christians didn't feel that way.
Catholics didn't feel that way.
I felt that if I were to tellyou my conviction, that I would
(20:58):
be ostracized, that I would bejudged right.
So if one of the outcomes of DEIis to create a sense of
belonging, then that wouldconsist of that.
We have to be able to tell thetruth, too, and be able to speak
about our faith.
But oftentimes we're in workingenvironments where people who
(21:18):
are faith people feel like ohyou know, I got to shrink, you
know I can't say what.
They're going to say I'mproselytizing, I'm trying to
make people feel uncomfortable,but yet people can say whatever
they want.
They can have a nasty mouth orwhatever, and that is acceptable
.
So I think throughout Scripture, you always will see that
(21:45):
problems will arise and then Godwill cause a person of faith to
rise with wisdom.
You saw it in the case ofJoseph, with Pharaoh, right?
They said, well, there's thisguy who can interpret dreams,
right, Daniel?
Speaker 2 (22:01):
right.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
So maybe this is an opportunity and we have to
reframe it and say that theworld can't figure this thing
out unless the church begins tospeak truth and begins to be a
light and a beacon in the midstof this.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Yeah, and the separation of the powers of
church and state were nevermeant to keep people from
practicing their faith.
It was, rather, that the statecan't impose a particular way of
religion on folks and we haveto be salt, light and leaven and
be able to live our faithboldly out in the world.
I mean, if that's not the case,then why did Jesus send people
(22:38):
out in the world, right?
So, yeah, that's great, did you?
Speaker 1 (22:41):
guys see what was happening in Ohio State right,
oftentimes, if you like, do alittle digging and you're like
man, this team just won thenational championship.
There's like a move of Godhappening on Ohio State.
That move of God it's athletes,it's not just the black running
back.
It's the white quarterback, theblack running.
(23:02):
It's like Pentecost when God'sspirit begins to move, it will
bring people from all differentracial backgrounds.
God's spirit begins to move, itwill bring people from all
different racial backgrounds,communities, cultural
backgrounds, because no one isso consumed with self, but
they're consumed with how greatGod is, and I think that's where
the real healing power happens,and it also lifts everyone up
(23:25):
and you begin to really tap intoyour true power.
And so I just believe that wehave to get a little bit more
bold.
I love it you know what I meanEven when we're not in faith
spaces, to invite people likewould you like to pray?
Sometimes you don't know whatto say and you'd be surprised,
(23:47):
and so I think this is anopportunity for the church.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
I agree.
Thank you, Dr Knight.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Very cool.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Yeah excellent, cool.
Now, dr Knight, you're a pastor.
Tell us where.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
Yeah, I pastor in Elyria, south side of Elyria.
Yeah, so we're in amarginalized part of the city of
Elyria and we've been ableto—the vision for our ministry a
long time ago was to bringpeople from different
communities together people fromthe Hispanic community,
(24:21):
african-american community, thewhite community together to be
able to worship.
That was always my visionbecause I have read one time Dr
King said the most segregatedhour is Sunday at 11.
And so I was like man, heaven'snot going to look like that.
So in a sense I've kind of beenon this journey for a long time
(24:42):
, most of my life, because forme growing up in Chicago, my
mother was so nervous to send meto the local public school
because of the gangs and stuffin the 90s and metal detectors
and stuff, and so most of myeducation was from Catholic
education.
Oh great, because of the gangsand stuff in the 90s and metal
detectors and stuff, and so mostof my education was from
(25:04):
Catholic education.
Oh great, and so, you know, allmy life I went to Catholic
education and so I got to goback to my black neighborhood,
go to Catholic school in thesuburbs, and I was kind of like
a hybrid, you know.
So I learned about the Catholicteaching, I saw different
things, and so for me I was inthe middle saying, well, that's
not true.
I was telling both communitiesthat's not true.
(25:25):
And part of that is becausewhen communities are isolated
they tell their story and I justthink God wants to begin to
tear down those walls.
And so if we tear down thosewalls and begin to have these
conversations with the spirit ofhumility, I think we can really
(25:46):
begin to move forward.
Cool.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Which is what we're doing right here.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
Yeah, and to not be afraid to ask the dumb questions
.
I remember when I was inBuffalo, we had the Mormons come
in you can think of all thebiases we have about Mormon
people, right and we sat downand just said okay, anybody can
ask any dumb question they want,Just throw it in this box and
we'll answer them.
It was so healing, Like the twocommunities started playing
(26:10):
basketball together.
They started coming to Mass.
We started going to TestimonySunday once a month just to hear
them.
It was really good.
It really made a lot of sense.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Dr Knight, does your church have a website?
Yeah, our website ishouseofhealingorg.
And would you want your websiteto be attractive and shiny, or
would you want it to be kind ofold and crusty, because we've
got something for you?
We do.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
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And don't believe me, go check out their Google
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Speaker 3 (27:26):
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Speaker 2 (27:39):
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Speaker 3 (27:50):
Dan the man.
All right, so let's take a lookat the second Sunday.
Wow, second Sunday of Lentalready.
Yeah, we're flying along.
Transfiguration is the gospel.
One of my favorite lines in allof Scripture.
But he did not know what he wassaying.
Peter says oh wait, let's stayhere, let's not go anywhere ever
again.
(28:10):
Let's just make three booths,one for you, one for Moses, one
for Elijah, and let's just campout here forever.
And Jesus is like no Jerusalem.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
You got to move, you got to go we got to go.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
We got to get off this mountain, come on.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
I went to Mount Tabor speaking of the mountain in
2017 on a little pilgrimage andall over that church they have
peacocks, because the peacock isthe image for the
transfiguration, because whenits tail feathers are down it
just looks like an ugly bird,and then when it throws its tail
up, it's glorious.
So that is Christ in hishumanity and Christ in his
divinity, and I think that'spretty cool.
(28:44):
That's pretty cool.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Any thoughts?
I didn't know that.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Yeah, well, now you throw it in your preaching.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
I know, yeah, any thoughts you know I was thinking
about.
You know, for those listening,like, what can we do?
A lot of what we're attemptingto do is to create like
partnership, in the sense thatthere are co-creators.
Right, it's this idea of sayingthat if I have all the money,
(29:11):
you don't have a lot of it.
If I'm from this community,you're from that community.
How can we come together and weboth can have a say, we both
can kind of co-create what thesolution might look like.
And I think that's where wehave an opportunity for those
that are listening, right,because people who are listening
are saying, hey, you know, howdo I do that?
(29:32):
You know I'm just a mom ofthree kids, and so forth.
You know, when you go to thesoccer game, you know, begin to
invite other people out forlunch, to the picnic.
You know, just begin to leaninto it.
Lean into that, that newnessthat comes from new
relationships, new communitiesand so forth.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
So you know we talk a lot about belonging on here too
, you know young adults inparticular, they say that they
need a community to belong to,and we, I think we forget that.
You know we talk a lot aboutbelonging on here too.
You know, young adults inparticular.
They say that they need acommunity to belong to, and I
think we forget that.
You know that that's whatpeople are ultimately looking
for.
They're looking for a placewhere they can feel safe, where
they can feel like their family,you know, like where anything
can happen.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:10):
And the church is family.
It's supposed to be yeah, so weyeah, so we talked a lot about
that.
You know, belonging, dignity,justice, all these things, those
are all right, at the heart ofour teaching as Catholics.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Cool.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
Indeed, dr James Knight, thanks for joining us.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
We'll have this and a whole lot more next time here
on Question of Faith.
It was good man, we're by superfast.
Whose vision was this ?
To set all this up, kind ofours with communications, yeah,
that's cool.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Just anything we can do to have a broader reach.
Speaker 3 (00:10):
Yeah and be relevant, right, Mm-hmm, all right, here
we go.
Three, two, one.
On today's question of faith isracism still a sin?
Hey, everybody, this isQuestion of Faith.
I'm Deacon Mike Hayes.
(00:30):
I am the Director of YoungAdult Ministry here in the
Diocese of Cleveland.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
And I'm Father Damian Ferencz, the Vicar for
Evangelization.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Hi, I'm the guest.
I'm Dr James Knight, withLeading with Humility and also
Pastor Church in Elyria, Ohiocalled House of Healing Awesome,
very nice, dr Knight welcomeback to 1404 here at the Diocese
of Cleveland.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
We've been friends for some time, but this is your
first time on the podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
True, it's excellent, and I'm the director of
ecumenical relations here alsoat the diocese, which I forgot
to say up front, which is verycool yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
I think it's the first time we've had a
non-Catholic pastor on our show.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
I think you're right.
So if we had a bell we wouldring it.
So is racism a sin.
We wanted to start out talkingabout that.
Boy, times are rough, huh.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Either we're racists all the time or we're not racist
at all.
Right, in the United States,and we live in a country and in
a space that is very polarizedright now.
So, as Deacon Mike just said,in terms of the race
conversation, there are thosewho will say that racism is the
biggest problem in the UnitedStates and then there are those
who will say that there is norace problem in the United
States.
There are those who will saythat we need to open the borders
completely and those will sayshut down the borders completely
(01:49):
.
There are those who will saygovernment programs will solve
every problem and others willsay we don't need any government
program.
So we live in a time that ishighly polarized and what we're
hoping to do on this particularpodcast is to offer the nuance
and be in the space in betweenwhere we can talk intelligently,
listen respectfully andactually dig down below the
(02:13):
ideological talk to the realissues at hand here.
Where real people live, right,right, right, and I understand
the way that the media works.
People get angry or they getafraid, and that's what drives
headlines and that's what drivesclicks and all that.
And that's why we don't have amillion listeners every week,
because we do try to offer thenuance and have rational,
(02:36):
intelligent, sober conversationshere.
So let's start with a churchdocument.
Uscc put out this document in2018 called Open Wide Our Hearts
the Enduring Call to Love APastoral Letter Against Racism.
And so let's just answer thequestion right off the bat.
As bishops of the CatholicChurch in the United States, we
(02:56):
want to address one particularlydestructive and persistent evil
.
Despite many promising stridesin our country, racism still
infects our nation.
And then the bishops writeracism arises when, either
consciously or unconsciously, aperson holds that his or her own
race or ethnicity is superiorand therefore judges persons of
(03:17):
other races or ethnicities asinferior and unworthy of equal
regard.
When this conviction orattitude leads individuals,
groups, to exclude, ridicule,mistreat or unjustly
discriminate against persons onthe basis of the race or
ethnicity, it is sinful.
Racist acts are sinful becausethey violate justice.
(03:39):
So there's the answer to ourquestion Is racism a sin?
Still a sin?
Yes, it is.
And then I guess the nextquestion is well, what do we do
about it and how do we talkabout it?
If that's the case, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
What do you think, james?
Speaker 1 (03:54):
That's a great question, you know.
I was doing a session out inShaker.
A bunch of churches cametogether and a lady elderly she
was saying like when are wegoing to get beyond race?
And I said that's a greatquestion, you know, because when
(04:14):
we think about it from abiblical perspective, there's
only one race and the idea ofrace is a social construct, of
race is a social construct andit's important for us to
understand that, to understandthat it was invented to separate
people, rank people and soforth.
And so if it was invented tosay this person is at the top of
(04:39):
the food chain, this person isat the bottom, the question that
we have to throw up and thinkabout is well, as long as we
keep playing on this playgroundcalled race, if it was designed
to favor some and not others,will we ever get to a place
where we're able to make senseand kind of?
(05:00):
all play together and so forth.
I'm not sure.
That is a very complicatedquestion, but I do think that
the Bible has the answers, thatour faith has the answer that if
we think about everybody beingcreated in the image and
likeness of God and we try tolook at each other through that
faithful lens, I think it doeshelp for us to move beyond that
(05:21):
sin of racism and to be able toregard each other.
I think we forget that too,like the civil rights movement
was fundamentally a religiousmovement.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
It was certainly about giving people rights, but
it sprung from deep within thecore of people's religious
beliefs that God gives us alldignity.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Yeah, and Martin Luther King Jr was Reverend
Martin Luther King Jr and knewhis scripture very well.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Yeah, and did a good job of like when, in letter to a
Birmingham from a Birminghamjail, like he took on his fellow
companions and said how comeyou all have never preached
about racism?
Yeah, it's like I don't know ifI've ever heard a homily about
racism.
Now that I think about it,maybe more recently, since we've
been talking about this in theheadlines, but I know I've only
(06:07):
been a deacon for a year.
I'm sure I have not preached onit.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
I have.
I was thinking when you saidwe're one race, it's the human
race, and if racism is a sin andit is, then the solution to
that sin is also the solution toall the other sins which you
pointed to in the scriptures,which is Jesus, who came to take
away the sins of the world andto heal.
So can you talk a little bitabout how that works?
(06:33):
Because a lot of times we wantto solve our problems
politically.
Political problems needpolitical answers.
But we're more than justpolitical people.
We're also theological people,we're spiritual people.
So how does the faith, how doesscripture, how does Christ
enter into the mess of thisparticular sin?
Speaker 1 (06:55):
I think the challenge is that we have a culture that
has moved away from going tochurch and kind of embracing
that in their life.
I think sometimes we're in acontemporary society where it's
like I'll just fit Jesus in whenit's convenient, versus
allowing Jesus to kind of be thedriver with a lot of our
(07:20):
decisions and so forth, becausefor me I think Jesus kind of
settles the dispute right.
We turn to church teaching, weturn to the Word of God.
That kind of helps us to getover what I feel.
Well, I see it this way.
Well, if we all see it adifferent way, truth is kind of
(07:40):
supposed to be that highersource of authority.
Church teaching is supposed tokind of say hey, all right, I
know, you feel this way, youfeel that way.
Well, what does God say aboutthis right?
What does the Scripture teachus?
Well, what does God say aboutthis right?
What does the Scripture teachus?
And so now the challenge forthe church is how do we continue
(08:02):
to be relevant in a world thatis polarized, in a world that
doesn't always want to hear whatGod has said and so forth?
And so I think we needmodern-day prophets who can kind
of decode the word in a waythat people can hear it and
receive it, that resonates withthem, that makes sense to say,
(08:23):
oh, okay, but that's been kindof what I've been trying to do
and I think that's how I've beenable to be effective.
I don't I don't necessarily sayJesus and say church teaching,
but when I go into a lot oforganizations to talk about how
do we come together, I use a lotof teaching around humility and
(08:43):
what the scripture says abouthumility.
And the funny thing is that youknow I'm at a business or I'm
talking about why humility isthe thing that grounds us, to
help us to hear each other'sperspective and practice empathy
.
And people are like I love this, it makes sense, it feels right
, but it's just coming fromchurch teaching.
You know what I mean.
(09:04):
We can't come together if wedon't get beyond ourself to
listen, and I think that's halfthe battle is that we're not
hearing each other.
Like some of the things thatI've read and documents that
have come out, you know, withthis political discourse that's
happening nationally, is thatI'm reading this.
(09:26):
I'm like that's not what'smeant by this and it's like both
sides don't understand eachother.
So how can we have anintelligent conversation when
both sides have amisunderstanding of what the
other side is trying to say.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
I agree, and this is exactly why I wanted to do this
particular topic, and I alsothink sometimes, because of lack
of humility, both sides areunwilling to listen to what the
other is experiencing orunderstanding, to enter into
what Pope Francis would call adialogue, a situation of
dialogue and walking together tounderstand the other person.
(10:01):
And if you're just shouting allthe time and you're not
actually listening, then it's abreakdown of communication and
it builds barriers betweenpeople and communities, even
yeah, or even with the best ofintentions, right, like
sometimes we resort to boxchecking.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
You know, well, we did this little thing now on
racism, so now we don't have toworry about it anymore.
Like when I was a collegeadministrator, I thought we were
doing a really good job on thisright.
I thought we welcomed people tocollege campuses, that we made
sure that they were cared for,that they had opportunities,
that everything seemed on aneven playing field.
And then we actually askedpeople our alumni and people at
(10:38):
the school how are we doing this?
And they were like yeah, youguys are terrible.
And we're like wait what Like no, and when we listened to them,
we were like, yeah, all right,you're right, we are terrible at
this and I'm not laughing at it, it's just like we're all blind
, Like you know, I don't knowthe experience that somebody
else is having while they'rehaving it.
(11:00):
I only know my own experience.
I think we're doing a good job,but I have to listen more to
see if we actually are.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Yeah, I mean that's good.
I mean, you think about?
The gospel is a story abouthumility to a large extent.
God says, hmm, they'restruggling down there.
He says, you know what, maybeI'm going to become God
incarnate, right, I'm going tobecome one of them, right, I'm
going to get closer to thesituation to understand.
(11:27):
And I think that's whatleadership is about.
Effective leadership is reallyactive listening.
I've read something somewherebefore, I'm not sure who said it
, but they said listening is anact of love.
And I think to really hear andto really be able to be heard is
a privilege.
(11:47):
And I think we've got to go toScripture and look at the
Gospels and think about why wasJesus born in a manger, and
think about why was Jesus born?
in a manger.
You know, why was this callingof our Lord to those who are
marginalized right?
And so we got to think aboutwhat does that mean in this
context?
(12:08):
How do we balance power?
You know, when we have animbalance of power?
Because oftentimes somebody isinvisible, somebody is not being
seen, they're not being heard,they're not being valued.
And so I think, now more thanever in this political climate,
just in the culture that we livein, it requires a great deal of
(12:29):
empathy to really put ourselvesin someone else's shoes.
And I stand in the gap becauseI believe God's given us the
ministry of intercession to beable to say all right, you know,
god, I just pray that bothsides have a heart to hear and
to receive, because when I seethose on the far right, their
(12:50):
vision is to make it better, andthen those that are way on the
other left, they feel like theirvision is to make it better.
And that's the challenge,because both people believe that
they have a solution to do that.
But humility says that if we'regoing to do it, we do have to
come to the table and we do haveto figure out what do we agree
on, and you know, I've talked toRepublicans, democrats, people
(13:13):
that are nothing, peopleeverything in between, and one
thing I have found is thateverybody wants the world to be
safe.
Everybody wants it to be safefor the kids.
They want it to be better.
So there's a lot of things thatwe do agree on, and sometimes I
just wonder if it's the smallminority that just has so much
(13:34):
power over the media andinfluence, because when you live
and you're just out theretalking to your family and your
friends and so forth, mostpeople are just in the middle.
They don't agree with this,they don't agree with that.
They're just like I just wantto be seen and be respected.
Right, keep it simple.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
They just feel lost.
There's nowhere to call home.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
But again, as we like said when we let off the show,
it's the extremes that get themost attention because, those
are the, the voices that arewell, they're the loudest, but
it's also by by the very factthat they are the extreme
they're the ones that get theattention.
And the people living um in themiddle are often ignored.
And again, again, our podcastdoesn't get millions of hits
(14:19):
because we don't necessarily gofor the shock like shocking that
we have Dr Knight on the showtoday.
We try to have goodconversations about really
important things and I alsothink as a culture we don't know
how to sit and talk and haveconversations.
We're so distracted by ourphones we're just reading a
headline that we actually don'tread an entire article or listen
(14:41):
to a whole conversation or havea family meal or get together
and do what human beings aresupposed to do, and because of
that we become less humanSoundbites.
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
The other thing too.
I think that you know, racismdoesn't just occur in the minds
of you know four or five peopleor even just individuals, right,
you know, these things kind ofcreep into systems, you know,
and Catholic social teaching haskind of gotten us into that.
You know, I was part of aparish at one point where we did
charity really, really well,like there were very generous
folks that were always giving oftheir time.
They're always giving of their,of their money to various
causes.
But if you wanted them to sitdown and talk about, you know
(15:22):
well what are the injusticesthat are causing these things.
They're like whoa, wait aminute.
You know, I don't want any partof that.
You know that's going to taketoo long.
Nobody got time for that kindof thing and I think that's
something that Catholicism inparticular, I think can really
get into.
It's not, it's not justindividualistic at this point.
(15:47):
It's creeped into systems andthose systems need to kind of
change at a variety of levels.
Speaker 1 (15:56):
I also think we need to change the narrative, like
they said.
You know, when I was working onmy doctorate degree, they said
one of the ways you try to fightany ism is oftentimes you have
to tell different stories.
Sometimes people are tellingthe same story over and over and
over and over again and it maynot be reflective of what's
(16:18):
really out there.
And so when you hear the samestory over and over and over
again, it impacts how you see it, it impacts even what you
believe about it, and so youknow.
For example, there's ascripture in Romans 10, 17.
It says faith comes by hearingand hearing by the word of God.
And if you really analyze that,you can say fear comes by
(16:41):
hearing too right.
Like.
What we believe oftentimes isthat, man, we're living in a
culture that shapes, you know,our beliefs, our values, but is
from the stories that we read.
So I had recently done a fewsessions with some police
departments and I began to havethese conversations with them
(17:04):
about humility and they were soopen, right, and so I'm like
would you guys be interested inhaving these conversations
around different cultures,different communities?
They're like of course we wouldlove that, right, because
there's a misunderstanding, sothis story is not told right.
Oftentimes the one story we seeis that all cops are this way,
(17:25):
right, or that all, whoever itis, are one way.
So I think we have to telldifferent stories.
We have to see pastors ofdifferent racial backgrounds and
different cultures andcommunities coming together.
Whether or not you're Catholicor I'm Lutheran or whatever
people, I really think need tosee people come together saying
(17:49):
there are things that we doshare in common, and we have to
give people a template of whatit means to come together and
put some of our own agenda asidefor the greater victory.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
I told Deacon Mike.
I mentioned this a few times.
I grew up in Parma and I didnot travel a lot until 1997.
I went to France for WorldYouth Day.
John Paul II called all theyouth of the world together and
it was the first time in mywhole young adult life that I
saw people from every continentspeaking all sorts of different
(18:23):
languages and it was the firsttime I understood I was part of
a universal church and it wasthe first time I understood I
was part of a universal church.
But gathering together one Lord,one baptism, receiving, like
the word of God, eating his bodyand blood, and the unity that
took place among that diversityblew my mind and I was so happy
to be.
And that's the church at herbest.
(18:44):
And so we have that as a model.
I mean Pentecost, when the HolySpirit came down on the
apostles.
They were sent out to allcorners of the world not to
separate but to gather togetherdiversity of culture under one
banner, our one Lord who comesto save all.
So it's already baked into whowe are as Christians, who we are
(19:05):
as Christians and, as you say,a lot of times we forget the
spiritual aspect of this and itcertainly informs the political,
but it's not simply political,and I think that's a really
important thing to remember aswe move forward here.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
And I think eventually we have to be
involved in politics at somelevel, oh yeah.
I mean, you know otherwise,we're just talking to ourselves.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
No, we are, but it's never apart from.
It's not like we spin off ourtheology.
This is the salt, light andleaven.
It's what we add to thepolitical discourse that we have
in particular.
So we're not making anything up, or it's not that these two are
separated.
It is that we are bringing ourtheology, we are bringing our
(19:47):
spirituality to our politicallife.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
Yeah, and could it be that problems are getting so
bad that God might just besaying, hey, I'm going to bring
the church and state togetheragain?
Hmm, right, because think aboutit, right, there was a point
when oftentimes the religiousspiritual leaders had access to
(20:14):
the king, or whoever?
had power, and they were.
They had, they had the abilityto give those in power, the
political parties, a spiritualperspective so that they could
include that right, and so Ithink that's been missing right.
It's like, oh, separation ofchurch and state.
(20:34):
Well, when everybody wastalking about this DI
conversation, that we shouldinclude everybody, that people
should be able to feel safe andbe able to share what they feel.
You know what I felt traveling?
Christians didn't feel that way.
Christians didn't feel that way.
Catholics didn't feel that way.
I felt that if I were to tellyou my conviction, that I would
(20:58):
be ostracized, that I would bejudged right.
So if one of the outcomes of DEIis to create a sense of
belonging, then that wouldconsist of that.
We have to be able to tell thetruth, too, and be able to speak
about our faith.
But oftentimes we're in workingenvironments where people who
(21:18):
are faith people feel like ohyou know, I got to shrink, you
know I can't say what.
They're going to say I'mproselytizing, I'm trying to
make people feel uncomfortable,but yet people can say whatever
they want.
They can have a nasty mouth orwhatever, and that is acceptable
.
So I think throughout Scripture, you always will see that
(21:45):
problems will arise and then Godwill cause a person of faith to
rise with wisdom.
You saw it in the case ofJoseph, with Pharaoh, right?
They said, well, there's thisguy who can interpret dreams,
right, Daniel?
Speaker 2 (22:01):
right.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
So maybe this is an opportunity and we have to
reframe it and say that theworld can't figure this thing
out unless the church begins tospeak truth and begins to be a
light and a beacon in the midstof this.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Yeah, and the separation of the powers of
church and state were nevermeant to keep people from
practicing their faith.
It was, rather, that the statecan't impose a particular way of
religion on folks and we haveto be salt, light and leaven and
be able to live our faithboldly out in the world.
I mean, if that's not the case,then why did Jesus send people
(22:38):
out in the world, right?
So, yeah, that's great, did you?
Speaker 1 (22:41):
guys see what was happening in Ohio State right,
oftentimes, if you like, do alittle digging and you're like
man, this team just won thenational championship.
There's like a move of Godhappening on Ohio State.
That move of God it's athletes,it's not just the black running
back.
It's the white quarterback, theblack running.
(23:02):
It's like Pentecost when God'sspirit begins to move, it will
bring people from all differentracial backgrounds.
God's spirit begins to move, itwill bring people from all
different racial backgrounds,communities, cultural
backgrounds, because no one isso consumed with self, but
they're consumed with how greatGod is, and I think that's where
the real healing power happens,and it also lifts everyone up
(23:25):
and you begin to really tap intoyour true power.
And so I just believe that wehave to get a little bit more
bold.
I love it you know what I meanEven when we're not in faith
spaces, to invite people likewould you like to pray?
Sometimes you don't know whatto say and you'd be surprised,
(23:47):
and so I think this is anopportunity for the church.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
I agree.
Thank you, Dr Knight.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
Very cool.
Speaker 3 (23:55):
Yeah excellent, cool.
Now, dr Knight, you're a pastor.
Tell us where.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
Yeah, I pastor in Elyria, south side of Elyria.
Yeah, so we're in amarginalized part of the city of
Elyria and we've been ableto—the vision for our ministry a
long time ago was to bringpeople from different
communities together people fromthe Hispanic community,
(24:21):
african-american community, thewhite community together to be
able to worship.
That was always my visionbecause I have read one time Dr
King said the most segregatedhour is Sunday at 11.
And so I was like man, heaven'snot going to look like that.
So in a sense I've kind of beenon this journey for a long time
(24:42):
, most of my life, because forme growing up in Chicago, my
mother was so nervous to send meto the local public school
because of the gangs and stuffin the 90s and metal detectors
and stuff, and so most of myeducation was from Catholic
education.
Oh great, because of the gangsand stuff in the 90s and metal
detectors and stuff, and so mostof my education was from
(25:04):
Catholic education.
Oh great, and so, you know, allmy life I went to Catholic
education and so I got to goback to my black neighborhood,
go to Catholic school in thesuburbs, and I was kind of like
a hybrid, you know.
So I learned about the Catholicteaching, I saw different
things, and so for me I was inthe middle saying, well, that's
not true.
I was telling both communitiesthat's not true.
(25:25):
And part of that is becausewhen communities are isolated
they tell their story and I justthink God wants to begin to
tear down those walls.
And so if we tear down thosewalls and begin to have these
conversations with the spirit ofhumility, I think we can really
(25:46):
begin to move forward.
Cool.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Which is what we're doing right here.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
Yeah, and to not be afraid to ask the dumb questions
.
I remember when I was inBuffalo, we had the Mormons come
in you can think of all thebiases we have about Mormon
people, right and we sat downand just said okay, anybody can
ask any dumb question they want,Just throw it in this box and
we'll answer them.
It was so healing, Like the twocommunities started playing
(26:10):
basketball together.
They started coming to Mass.
We started going to TestimonySunday once a month just to hear
them.
It was really good.
It really made a lot of sense.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Dr Knight, does your church have a website?
Yeah, our website ishouseofhealingorg.
And would you want your websiteto be attractive and shiny, or
would you want it to be kind ofold and crusty, because we've
got something for you?
We do.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
You know who brings people together?
Tell me Briefcase Marketing.
Oh, they do it all the timeBecause they make sure that your
church doesn't have thosescattered messages or that they
look crusty.
They look brand spanking new atthem.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Yes, briefcase Marketing creates marketing for
your church or church-basedministry that inspires action
and delivers results.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
They will clarify your message to attract the
right audience.
They'll streamline your websiteto convert visitors into donors
, volunteers, parishioners.
They'll create consistency tobuild trust and deepen
relationships across everymarketing platform, that's your
ads, your social media, youremail, all those things.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
And don't believe me, go check out their Google
reviews.
They've done superb work withour friends at Theology of the
Body, cleveland, st John, kansasand Tremont.
We'll put some samples of thatwork in our show notes and make
it easy for you to check themout.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
With a clear message and a compelling website.
Briefcase Marketing will helpyou get more donors giving you
your mission, more volunteersready to serve.
Overall, they'll get you morepeople.
Sure, then those people willshare your message and become
your advocates.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
So visit their website.
That's briefcasemarketing.
We've got their link in theshow notes or text 308-627-1262.
Our pal Dan First will takegood care of you at Briefcase
Marketing.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
Dan the man.
All right, so let's take a lookat the second Sunday.
Wow, second Sunday of Lentalready.
Yeah, we're flying along.
Transfiguration is the gospel.
One of my favorite lines in allof Scripture.
But he did not know what he wassaying.
Peter says oh wait, let's stayhere, let's not go anywhere ever
again.
(28:10):
Let's just make three booths,one for you, one for Moses, one
for Elijah, and let's just campout here forever.
And Jesus is like no Jerusalem.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
You got to move, you got to go we got to go.
Speaker 3 (28:21):
We got to get off this mountain, come on.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
I went to Mount Tabor speaking of the mountain in
2017 on a little pilgrimage andall over that church they have
peacocks, because the peacock isthe image for the
transfiguration, because whenits tail feathers are down it
just looks like an ugly bird,and then when it throws its tail
up, it's glorious.
So that is Christ in hishumanity and Christ in his
divinity, and I think that'spretty cool.
(28:44):
That's pretty cool.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Any thoughts?
I didn't know that.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
Yeah, well, now you throw it in your preaching.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
I know, yeah, any thoughts you know I was thinking
about.
You know, for those listening,like, what can we do?
A lot of what we're attemptingto do is to create like
partnership, in the sense thatthere are co-creators.
Right, it's this idea of sayingthat if I have all the money,
(29:11):
you don't have a lot of it.
If I'm from this community,you're from that community.
How can we come together and weboth can have a say, we both
can kind of co-create what thesolution might look like.
And I think that's where wehave an opportunity for those
that are listening, right,because people who are listening
are saying, hey, you know, howdo I do that?
(29:32):
You know I'm just a mom ofthree kids, and so forth.
You know, when you go to thesoccer game, you know, begin to
invite other people out forlunch, to the picnic.
You know, just begin to leaninto it.
Lean into that, that newnessthat comes from new
relationships, new communitiesand so forth.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
So you know we talk a lot about belonging on here too
, you know young adults inparticular, they say that they
need a community to belong to,and we, I think we forget that.
You know we talk a lot aboutbelonging on here too.
You know, young adults inparticular.
They say that they need acommunity to belong to, and I
think we forget that.
You know that that's whatpeople are ultimately looking
for.
They're looking for a placewhere they can feel safe, where
they can feel like their family,you know, like where anything
can happen.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:10):
And the church is family.
It's supposed to be yeah, so weyeah, so we talked a lot about
that.
You know, belonging, dignity,justice, all these things, those
are all right, at the heart ofour teaching as Catholics.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Cool.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
Indeed, dr James Knight, thanks for joining us.
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
We'll have this and a whole lot more next time here
on Question of Faith.
It was good man, we're by superfast.
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