Calvin Michaels on K-Pop, Culture, & Capitalism

Episode Transcript
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Sir Daniel (00:16):
Greetings and welcome to another episode of Queue Points.
I'm DJ Sir Daniel.

Jay Ray (00:21):
And my name is Jay Ray, sometimes known by my government
as Johnnie Ray Kornegay III.
How you doing, sir Daniel?

Sir Daniel (00:30):
I am fantastic.
Happy to be, um, doing another episodeof Queue Points podcast, dropping
the needle on black music history.
Now, Jay Ray, we've been wantingto, we've been dancing around this
subject for a minute now, and.
We just, We discovered, um, a young manby the name of Calvin Michaels and he is
a musician in his own right and has hisown, a very interesting story of his own.

(00:54):
So we were like.
Let's just kill two birds with one stoneand just chat with Mike, chat with Calvin
and see if he could help the unclesout the OGs out with any information.
But Jay Ray, let's introduceour guest to the audience.

Jay Ray (01:09):
Absolutely.
Y'all, we are so excited
to welcome CalvinMichaels to Queue Points.
Calvin, welcome to the show.
How you doing?
Hey.

Calvin Michaels (01:19):
Hey guys.
Happy.
What?
What's today?
Wednesday?
Happy Wednesday.

Jay Ray (01:22):
Right.

Sir Daniel (01:23):
It's a blur, it's

It's, it's a blur.
We all just making it right.

Jay Ray (01:27):
We're

Sir Daniel (01:29):
Absolutely.
Calvin, you're, you're, um, you're tuningin, or this is beaming in, I should say,
from chocolate city itself, WashingtonDC And we, with, as far as music is
concerned, as I just saw somethingrecently, um, that was talking about.
Gogo, I think it's something thatcame up on my social media feed.

(01:52):
Feed about the power of Gogo and how,of course, you know, Gogo is very
germane to Washington dc but tellus about what influence DC has on
you as a musician and your artistry.

You know, I'll definitely say, especially when it comes to go, go.
You really have to be at alive, go-go to really get it.
Because I'm originally from the otherWashington, like Washington State.
Uh, my parents were military, so webounced and moved around, but I moved
here for college and just never left.
And um, I remember I. When I was firsthearing, like, what Go-Go was from

(02:35):
Washington State, I was being told, oh,just think of like the Rich Harrison stuff
that he does with Beyonce and Amarie.
So I was like, oh, okay.
All right.
You know, I'm thinking, okay,I'm gonna good to DC it's gonna
be 21 things on the radio.
And then, um, when I got here, Iremember we were at a club and then they
started playing like these differenttracks, and at first I couldn't
quite gather what I was experiencing.

(02:57):
It.
It wasn't bad or anything, it was just so.
Different.
Right?
Give it two, three weeks later.
Oh, I was in there and probablyknew every word, every song.
I think what it is is Gogo just has,there's this richness in this raw.
Um, essence to it, where it, itreally is what I say, a genre
that has never been watered down.
It's still in its original element.

(03:18):
And, and even though it's kind of, um,evolved into different forms, 'cause you
have kind of like your pocket go-go, youhave, um, you, you have these different
versions where there's something that'sa bit more energetic, some that's
real smooth and, and subtle, but it,there's just, when I say it's just an
unapologetically black genre and it'sso representative of not only just.

(03:39):
The Washington DC area, but just culturehere, um, where we are collectively
in whatever times are taking place inthe United States politically, or it
just, it's a reflection of all of that.
So as far as it correlating to my sound,um, what I've always appreciated about
Gogo is that it doesn't matter how oldthe song is, none of the songs ever sound
old because it's all live instrumentation.

(04:01):
And I've noticed with music.
Songs that are recordedwith live instrumentation
versus samples in, in studio.
Um, never sound old.
So if you take like a brand new heaviesnever stop, which is from 30 years,

Jay Ray (04:14):
30 years, 30 plus

will always sound fresh.
No matter how many timesyou put it on, that's go-go.
I think, and I, I always tell people,you really won't get it until you
are there and hear it in person.
'cause it's a different kind of energy.
It's something that I don't thinkyou can translate the same way
through speakers, but when you're atone and you just, you just feel it.
And the people that are around, it's,it's, it, it's, it's like even the

(04:37):
church I go to is a go-go church.
Like the song's gottabe, I want some gospel.
Go-go.
You gonna sing it right?
Sing it in

Jay Ray (04:43):
hear that, right?

Sir Daniel (04:44):
need that in my veins right now.
A little praise and worshipwith With a, with a pocket.
Oh, tell

yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's great.
It's awesome.
So,

Jay Ray (04:54):
Wow.
So to that point, soCalvin, you are a musician.
You do so many things.
True definition, multihyphenate, you'redancing, you're singing, podcasting,
commentary, all of those things, right?
One, um, how did this start for you?

(05:16):
Like what was your entry pointinto kind of your artistic journey?
I'm really curious about that.
Um, and when you think about yourartistry and what you do, like what
do you wanna leave on the world like?
So how did you enter and what doyou want people to get from it?
Yeah,

Yeah, so like I was saying, because my parents were military,
we moved a few times and there was aportion when I turned eight when we
moved to Za Italy, which was cool.
However, I. This is the nineties.
This is like 96, 97.
So, um.
With that.
At the time there was nocable on the military base.

(05:53):
You had one channel called a FN to watchand a FN was American Forces Networks.
And that was kind of like, theyjust took the best of what was on
all the major networks and thatwas your, your entertainment.
So we didn't really watch TV because um,it just wasn't a whole lot to choose from.
So you were outside, youfound creative things to do.
So as far as how, I guess Igot in, it probably would've

(06:13):
been through dance first.
This lady had just come from America.
She had Janet's velvet Rope,DVD that she, or not even DVD
I'm, I'm jumping the gun here.
VHS that she recordedoff the TV when it aired.
Um, and I saw, and mind you, I hadn'treally seen at this point, it's like 98.
I haven't really seen music for two years.
I, I've heard it, you know, some ofthe big, big songs in the US with

(06:35):
Crossover and find Its Way to Europe.
But a lot of what washappening in America.
I was out of the loop one, Ididn't know who was doing what.
My brain was calibrated in 96so that I saw that concert.
And other than I thinkWhitney's uh, welcome Home

Jay Ray (06:48):
Mm-hmm.

Concert from like 91, that was the only
concert I remember ever seeing.
So when I saw that, I.
Hooked.
Let me emulate everything I see.
And then somebody else ended up havingMichael Jackson's, um, history one,
one of them shows they, so I usedto watch that in VE Rope just all
the time and kind of just startedteaching myself to kind of dance.
And then when we moved back toAmerica, we moved to another small

(07:10):
town called Spanaway, Washington.
Not a whole lot to do.
You have nothing to do, but be creative.
So, um, it, I mean, it's kindof, I feel like everything kind
of happened at the same time.
I was also, you know, a kidthat grew up in the church,
so you had to be in the choir.
And we went to a storefrontchurch, so everybody participates.
You go, you going to, I was Usherchoir and eventually choir director.
And if they do the Easter playand the Christmas program,

(07:31):
you gotta be in that too.
Right?
So now you, you're doing theater.
And then I kind of jumped in thetheater in, in middle and high school.
Um, I was on like the actual dance teamsin high school, but as far as the YouTube
channel, as far as me getting a presence,um, I used to teach dance on the side.
Um, and so by the time I got to Howard,I had these different contracts with
a bunch of different teams, and thenI got into Howard and I needed to move

(07:53):
to dc but I wasn't done with the teamsand I'd already signed contracts.
So what ended up happening is.
We came to like an A medium'cause I could just couldn't keep
flying each weekend to teach.
Um, I would do the lessons on YouTubewith an unlisted link and just send
my lessons in the choreography and,you know, do these different teams
and then, you know, I'd fly specialoccasion when it's competition time.

(08:15):
And so that's how the YouTubechannel initially started.
So people sometimes will see my challenge,like, oh, he started in oh five, he old.
I was like, no, I didn't startlike the YouTubeing for like
another handful of years.
So it started with that.
After college.
Um, I graduated at the peak of therecession, so there were no jobs.
I went right back home, bored to death,and somehow I just randomly was like,

(08:37):
I think I'm gonna do a comedy show.
And so I randomly went and did acomedy show and it went really well.
And then I did like another andanother, and I was like, actually, okay.
So then I started using the YouTubechannel to promote my comedy shows.
I would, you know, showcase that.
Um, that's all like 20 10, 20 11.
Fast forward, I. There's this ladynamed Bethany Storrow, um, who lived

(08:59):
in Vancouver, Washington, whichis a town where there's probably
about three of us over there.
And long story short, she claimed that shehad been attacked by this black woman who
threw acid on her face, and she was on thenews, whole face, green skin burned off.
Everything turned out she made it all up.
Um, and it was because she wastrying to get the attention of her
ex-boyfriend, and so she needed a tragedy.
I'm like, well, whyyou gotta put us in it?

Jay Ray (09:19):
Right?
Like how we get in it.

Yeah.
So that kind of pulled me into, nowI got something I want to say, and
that's when I started actually makingthe YouTube videos and talking.
So I did that for some years.
Um, then I started justjumping into new projects.
Um, I did a web series calledGeneration Black, maybe 10 years ago.
We did that.
Um, how we got into the music.

(09:41):
Um, oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
I, um, had already beenmeaning to build a recording.
Pseudo, I've always done music anyway.
I've always had like a keyboardor something, but I just wanted
to do it more officially.
And then, um, I always remember, speakingof Janet, I had tickets to the Unbreakable
Tour and then that's the one that gotpostponed 'cause she was pregnant.
And so the money I had from the.

(10:02):
Refund from that tour, plus my tax refund.
I was like, I haveenough to build a studio.
And so I just went to Guitar Center,was like, Hey, I wanna build a studio.
What do I need?
And then we kind of played around.
And before you know it, I hadan album and then another album.
And in between the two albums cameto comedically Hard Headed podcast.
Um, because the YouTube channel wasvery political and people are like,

(10:23):
you're funny, but you, you scare us.
And I'm like, I'm scaring y'all.
What?
So that was the podcast.
I was like, okay.
So then we launched like, or I'm sayingwe like there's somebody else here.
But I launched the ComedicallyHardheaded podcast, which was
like a storytelling podcast.
So that's all humor.
We ain't cussing nobody out,it's just all good laugh.
Um, so I'm trying to wrap thisup 'cause I'll talk in circles.

(10:43):
Um, and then from there it's reallykind of just built and, and branded.
We ended up doing a short film 'causesomebody found one of the episodes
and thought it was hilarious.
We just did the film festival circuit lastyear with one of the episodes from that.
And so that's been that.
But getting to the questionabout, um, I guess impact of
what legacy I would like to make.
I just wanna live in my purpose, right?

(11:03):
And I think our purpose, we havethat North Star, but there are
different ways to get there.
So at this point, I'm taking 15 differentroutes just to get to that star.
So some days it's music, some days it'scomedy, some days it's the podcast.
Other days it's a deep dive andI want to talk about, I don't
know, Motown records or something.
So that's kinda, um, where it's all at.
So I do a little bit ofeverything, but it's.

(11:26):
You try to find ways to balance it outso you're not, you know, overworked
and, and, and burnt out tired.

Jay Ray (11:31):
Yeah.
Wow.

Sir Daniel (11:34):
So Calvin, that's a, that's a lot of living packed into your lifetime.
And

No, I'm just kidding.

Sir Daniel (11:42):
no, we're, we're older than you, trust me.

right.

Sir Daniel (11:47):
And that's why, but that's why I find this so fascinating to talk to you
as somebody who is well traveled and whohas lived in various parts of the world.
When you come back home and you.
You are an artist yourself.
You sing, you dance.

(12:08):
Um, tell jokes, all the whole ninewhen you encounter the factory
that is, and it's, it's a factory.
When you encounter the factory thatwe here in America know as K-Pop.

Jay Ray (12:22):
Kpop

Sir Daniel (12:24):
Initially, what is your response?
Initially you're like, 'cause we, okay,so we're not strangers to the boy band
formula here in the States, especially.

Jay Ray (12:35):
I loved menudo.

Sir Daniel (12:36):
You know?
Right.
Especially, but then when we came tothe late nineties, you know, we had the
98 degrees, the ncs, the Backstreet,all of those boy groups and the girl
groups, um, being manufactured likeby one or two people in the industry.

Jay Ray (12:51):
Mm-hmm.

Sir Daniel (12:52):
So when you encounter it as somebody looking from your
lens, as somebody who's lived herein the States but also lived abroad,
what is your initial reaction to.

Jay Ray (13:03):
to the,

Sir Daniel (13:04):
I guess to the whole American bandstand of it all, like
of of K-Pop and how everything ismanufactured, like what was your initial
reaction when you started seeing them?

So the first time I remember seeing any K-pop, anything
would've been the early two thousands.
So living back in Washington state,there's a really large southeast,
um, Asian population and PacificIslander population really huge.
And so there were additional channelsthat were tailored to those demographics.
And so I remember one time.
Like my best friend at the timewe used, we were music dorks.

(13:39):
We would just sit on the phoneand talk music all day to the
point where other people wouldbe like, yeah, y'all are weird.
Why are y'all talking about somebody?
You, you, you naming all the band membersfrom some random tour None of us heard of.
But anyway, so we would, sometimes,

Jay Ray (13:52):
It does.
It's how

we would sometimes just be on the phone and like,
you, you know, I'm sure y'alldid this too back in the day.
Like you and your friend would watchthe same show on tv and so we were like
flipping channels one day and it, it endedup on one of these like local access.
Asian channels and they had a segmentwhere they played music videos.
This is about oh 3 0 4.
And so I remember we were watching, and Iremember the first video I saw, it was by

(14:15):
this artist named Lexi, I think it's LEXY.
And she had a song called Girls.
And when I looked at her, I waslike, I. This looks so much like
Janet's all night, don't stop video.
Like similar style, similar lighting.
And I was like, okay.
Interesting.
And then like the next video that playedwas this, this lady named like Lehi Roy.
And she had this song called One 10Minute and she has the same jersey

(14:39):
dress that Maya has on in the um,best of Me Remix video with Jay-Z.
I was like, what's going on here?
We, and and we, we were intrigued though.
I'm not gonna lie.
Like, it was interesting 'cause it's like.
We're only teenagers, but you couldstill tell like, okay, this is
really like a, an emulation here.
And so I don't remember the nameof the show, but it came on once

(15:00):
a week and we used to just sitand watch to see all these videos
and every video that came out.
It was interesting because it wasalmost like the imaging they had was
maybe a few years behind what we weredoing at the moment, production wise.
I take that back, the imagingwas matching up, but the
production was a few years behind.
It sounded like, you know,maybe 2000, not 2004, 2005 ish.
And um, so we were just like, okay.

(15:23):
Um, now I will say, um, in comparisonto the now, I think what they were
doing then was a bit more, um.
Well-rounded than now.
I think right now you really do seethe evidence of that kind of factory,
that kind of just throw it all outthere because I, I felt like those

(15:43):
artists that were out in those earlieryears that, I think there's one like
the, there was I think a guy named bi.
There was, um.
I'm skipping so many people, uh, I'mforgetting these names, but they all
had their own kind of personalities.
What I'm noticing about this current erais I can't tell who's who, and that's
not to sound like ignorant, but as faras just the distinction between their

(16:03):
sound, even the imaging and their musicvideos, the, the music production, the
choreography, it's like everybody hasexactly the same package presentation.
I mean, it, it's cool visually, I guess.
Um, but it's not.
To me, it just feels toocalculated and too orchestrated
and too mechanical I think.

(16:24):
And, and that's, maybe that'sjust 'cause I'm a little older
than the target audience.
And I do remember when K-POP wasnot a thing in the United States.
Um, to the extent that it is now,something has just always felt
off and I just always think to.
I wanna say this is the 2018 or 2019Billboard Music Awards and New Edition

(16:46):
and new Kids on the Block had a jointperformance, and I remember them
panning to BTS, you know, the bigboy band that was really, really big.
And you know, you've seen theirvideos, they just da da da.
But what, what's so interesting iswhen they were doing Bobby's, um, every
little step I take in the segment,I noticed BTS was dancing, but they
weren't on the rhythm to the song.
And I was like, wait a minute.

(17:06):
Now y'all can do all this choreographyand spit on your head, but y'all
can't catch the two and the four, Iwas so confused and then I realized,
well that's because they're, thisis not what they're rooted in.
This is something, there's aconversation of skilled verse trained.
Right?
And so I was like.
This makes sense.
This is why like, yeah, they can emulate,but you can tell that a lot of times it's

(17:26):
not really what they're rooted in now.
It's made a lot of money.
It's, I mean, these are acts thatare selling out stadiums in the
US at this point now, but, um, Ithink there's a specific demographic
that appreciates it and, you know,that they're able to market to.
But I think there's an entireanother segment that is
just never gonna be into it.
And that's kind of where I think a lot of,I'll throw myself in there to be honest.

(17:50):
Um.
It's cool.
It's just, it's not my breadand butter to, to run behind.
Uh, and I just, I, I don't thinkthey have that full identity of
what they want to be artistically.
It's, it's more so the marketingand the branding they have that
mastered, but the authenticity andthe artistry, I don't think is there,
which is why you see so many theseacts just blow up and then disappear.

(18:14):
and what makes it even craziernow that I think back at it.
One of the things I remember when wesaw those early versions, and mind
you, K-pop was already out by thetime I discovered it, it had been
been a thing since about the midnineties, and I'm 10 years late, right?
I, I specifically remember thatLehigh Roy, just one 10 minute
video, y'all please go watchthat when you get a chance.
But there's a scene where.

(18:34):
They're riding with the top down andI guess, what was the Korean hood?
And then they pan to all theKorean dudes playing basketball.
And we were like, what?

Jay Ray (18:43):
now.
Wait a minute now.
Now wait a minute.

and the, this one we were still wearing the va, it was
like, it was like 20 Allen Iversons inthe video, but they were just Korean.
I said, this is.
Uh, you just saw, you couldtell that, okay, they're trying
to piece a certain image here.
'cause, 'cause what part of Korea is this?
Because, I mean, you would've,the, the way that it was
presented was like, oh, okay.
So y'all in Brooklyn.
Really?
Okay.
All right.
Okay.

(19:06):
So it, it, it's, um, and, and I,I, I get it because again, black
music influences everybody andour music is really huge there.
You know, some of our artists.
Are huge in places like Japanand Korea and Singapore.
So it's, it's no secret that the influenceis there, but I, it goes back to what
I was saying about the idea of Rooted.
So even if you're talking Korean musicor, or K-pop, you know, their bread

(19:30):
and butter before K-pop blew up wasKorean folk, which is so left field
from what is currently out there.
So again, it's almost like.
Foundation was never there, butthey built their foundation off of
what was happening in the US in theeighties and the nineties, and so
that's where their foundation stops.
But if you're talking about like anr and b artist in the United States,
even an RB artist, they may be born in2000 even, you know, their, their, um,

(19:55):
foundation doesn't stop in the eightiesbecause you know what, even though, you
know, on Sundays if they had to go tograndma's house, grandma was playing
seventies in the sixties or wherever.
And so there's still that element of.
You know, certain elements of soundbeing rooted or even if they were a
family that went to church, you know,those same music theory lessons that
we indirectly get if you grew up ina church have never really changed.

(20:17):
And the only difference is now theygot a guitar and it's a little bit more
praise and worship ish versus, um, maybewhat we grew up on with the choirs.
But, um, there's stillthat essence of, of, of.
That, that foundation that's still there.
And I don't think the K-popacts really have that.
And all they can do is emulate.
And I think this is why you're seeingso many cycle in and cycle out because
just 10 years ago, the the two onegroup that was the two NE and the

(20:41):
number one, or maybe they're called21 with, with a massive, massive
act like they, they were before

Jay Ray (20:46):
even heard.
That's crazy.
'cause I never even

They were huge and yeah, they were ma and I and some of it was,
I used to work with kids, so they'rea bit more on the internet than I am,
so they were finding everything, but Iremember they were massive at a point.
And then, um, it's like they justfell off the face of the earth.
Um, I'm like, where'd they go?
And now there's kinda like black pink,which is one that's kind of coddling here.
They've done Coachella.

(21:09):
Um, and, and there's someacts, and I'm really not trying
to whack any of these acts.
Uh, it is just, um.
It.
It's, I just, I thinkit's a generational thing.
I think if you're of a certain age,you're just never gonna be 100% into it.
There will be the anomalies, but overall,I just think if you were rooted in an
era where, you know, Michael, prince,Whitney, Janet, Mariah, were on your tv,

(21:30):
I'll even throw Madonna in there, or yourtv, it's really hard to be impressed by.
Yeah.
You know, that's just where I'm at.

Sir Daniel (21:40):
So that, so that kind of, it kind of, um, quells
the kind of the fire that I had.

Jay Ray (21:50):
had

Sir Daniel (21:51):
Initially when we had the initial conversation, it kind of,
this, kind of dulls that a little bit.
It's like, oh, okay.
They're not, they're really all, uh,it's really about consumption and
then just regurgitating what you'veconsumed because like you said, I,
there's been years I've seen this guywho does nothing but new Jack swing

(22:14):
choreography and he dances to, I think.
Any new Jack swing song thatyou could ever think of that
was made between 87 and 95.
He's danced to it and they, theyspecifically love that particular era.
There's, they have this thing fornew jack swing, but then I also think

(22:35):
about how we specifically black peopleare viewed in different cultures
and as your world traveler, um.
Is it, is, is this, isthis modern black face?
it, is there, is there like a,a teaspoon of racism in there?

(22:57):
Because we've all seen the pictures of,you know, the, the kids and it's, it's,
it's definitely tied to youth culture.
The kids that are getting, you know, theirhair twisted into Bantu knots and, and
trying to create waves out of their hair.
And as you said, the fashions are very.
Early two thousands with the, you know,the, the, the throwbacks and the, the

(23:18):
throwback skirts and all that other stuff,and they're getting their hair, corn,
rowed and all these kinds of things.
So, but is there an actual, and youcan't speak for them, but as somebody
who's traveled and has experienceddifferent cultures as a black person
presenting in this world, is it rooted in.

Jay Ray (23:38):
in

Sir Daniel (23:40):
And is it rooted in appropriation?
Is it making fun of, is it adoration?
How?
How do you feel about it?

I always say, just imagine you travel there and you walk
into a room and you see 15 people withthe outfits and the hair and the jewelry
staring at you like you're crazy.
Um, how do you feel in that moment?
Do you feel like I. You know,I, I think it's a combination
of all of it, to be honest.
I, I really do believe that thatcommunity adores what we do.

(24:11):
I mean, 'cause honestly, I think RB hiphop, new Jack swing, for a lot of them
that was their introduction to whatyou would call like Western style music
as opposed to like the Korean folk.
So it's, you know, that's theirintroduction to certain things.
And I think culturally we'vealways been emulated, but I think
where there's a gray area is.

(24:31):
There is still that element of racism thatis there and some of these fan bases are.
Crazy.
I, I just see it on social mediabecause a lot of them don't want to
acknowledge that the entire origin andinfluence of new, uh, uh, of K-pop comes
from what black artists were doing.
That's the main reason why in my newJack swing deep dive, I opened with
that, which I got cussed out for.
'cause the Teddy Riley disciplesdidn't know where I was going

(24:53):
with, and I'm like, just keep

Jay Ray (24:54):
Just keep why

They like, what?
You starting in Korea for Teddy?
I was like, just, just, just it.
I summed it up in four minutes, justgimme four minutes to get it out.
Like, oh man, they were whacking me.
I'm like, y'all,

Jay Ray (25:05):
are like, just keep going.
Like, we were impressed.
That's how we got here.
We're like, no, no, no.
Yes, Calvin Michaels.

were killing me.
Let me turn this light on.
Let's get

Jay Ray (25:13):
Okay.
Rutabaga.

Okay.
Yeah, the sun's trying to set on here.
But anyway, so, um, yeah.
And so I think, um, Isee some element of like.
To me, there's some element ofracism because there, there's
a lot of anti-blackness in thatregion of the world as well.
Right.
Um, and, and even when it comes tocertain things like the N word, some

(25:37):
of 'em have no problem using it.
And, and, and some of it is, there's nota full understanding of the blacklight
in the United States, but some dounderstand it and just don't care.
Um, and so I think.
It's a weird space because also wenow have black American producers
that are also making their sounds.
So you have people like Sean Garrettand, and Teddy Riley who, you know,
give some of them their hits too.

(25:57):
And I get it.
There's money to be made.
And I think with K-Pop, for me, I seeit as, as a brand and a business model
more so than like a, a specific genreof music that's rooted in something.
If you notice the, the rollouts,it's, it's centered all in branding.
And how can we get themost commercial gain, um.
And I think that stems from likewhat you brought up earlier when

(26:19):
we talked about the boy bands.
One of the things that was interestingabout living in Italy is, you know,
we got the Backstreet Boys in NSYNCearly, um, Backstreet Boys was out,
I don't wanna say by the time Igot to Italy, they were already a
thing overseas, um, NSYNC as well.
And so I remember moving backto the US in 99 and now N Sync
is promoting, like tearing upmy heart and I'm like, this was.

(26:42):
Two years ago, y'all justnow getting this right.
Um, because they were, some of the actsthat actually were marketed specifically
in Germany blew up in Germany.
Germany is only a countryand a half away from Italy.
You just go through Switzerlandand then we right there.
Um, and so that model ofset them up in Europe.
Model them after Boys to Men,model them after New Edition.

(27:04):
Teach them how to dance.
Give them a little bit of extra swag.
You know, you're gonna getChris from nsync, who at the
time, remember he used to

Jay Ray (27:10):
He used to have the braids too.
Yep.

Had them braids.
Put 'em out there and you get like an AJfrom Backstreet Boys who has, he doesn't
have an ambiguous look, but you can tellhe got something else in the bloodline.
So kind of make him look like he'sa little bit more spicy than usual,
and then put them out there and.
Now they got some eight counts downand now we can package them and
give them to the United States.
Like, I think that's almost wherethe difference is with the boy bands

(27:33):
versus like the Spice Girls who Ithink the Spice Girls kind of stayed
in a, a super bubblegum pop realm.
But I think the boy bands, there was aneffort to really model them after what
the RB groups were doing at the time.
Like Spice Girls, I think werestill, you know, they were still
a great group, but I, I didn'tsee them marketed as, you know.
Put them in a room and make them doan in Vogue and TLC doing, I think
Spice Girls somehow were able tokind of carve their own lane, even

(27:56):
though the influencers are there.
I never saw them as carbon copiesof, uh, and I'm, I'm not saying that
about nsync, Backstreet Boys, butyou, I, I never saw them as, um, they
were still factory, a factory group.
They were assembled clearly, but Ithink it, there was a different, um,
origin behind their creation, uh,where you have Lou Pearlman who knew
exactly what he was doing when he.

(28:18):
And even the ties to, um, ah, the guy

Jay Ray (28:21):
Maurice

Maur Starr did the connection with him and Lou
promo, like so there was an effort.
Yeah.
So, um.
I think when you jump back to the K-popconversation, it's the same thing.
But the only difference is now wejust also this, the language barrier.
'cause a lot of these artists don'tspeak English either they sing in
English, they, they don't speak,or they have a very limited scope.
Or sometimes you'll see these groupsthat win the award, they'll have the,

(28:42):
the member that speaks it a little bitbetter that will do all the talking.
And then it's interesting 'cause thenwhen you listen to the lyrics and
they're talking about, I'm so bad.
I'm so hood.
Hood.
Like where?

Jay Ray (28:50):
who, who and how.
Right?
You're just singing things.
You know what this is bringing up forme and ooh, this is, this makes me mad.
Um, but.
We do this every time.
It is the, um, incessantcommercialization of our culture.
Like we saw this in the lateeighties where all of a sudden all

(29:14):
the black producers was producingon all these white groups, right?
And given them bops, right?
We got so many bops inthe new Jack swing era

Because Jane Child.

Jay Ray (29:23):
Baby

Don't wanna fall in love.

Jay Ray (29:26):
day.
We talk about that is a jam.
Tara Kemps just wannahold you tight all day.
These are jams, right?
But.
It is just this, this, this connectionto commercialization that will have
some of us being like, you know what?
No, they, I can absolutely havemy song on this group, right?

(29:46):
This group who has no connection to yourhistory, no real interest in understanding
what it means to be rooted in it.
Singing over your stuff and thatit's, it's, it's business 1 0 1.
It's music industry 1 0 1.
I get it, but it.
It happens all the time, and I still getmad because it waters everything down.

(30:12):
And what happens is then we haveto do that so that then we can
then sell it back to our folks.
So these folks took our thing.
Made it this, then we have to do that.
Right?
Put our stank back on it, give it back.
But of course we'regonna do it differently.
'cause we done put our stank on it.

(30:32):
They're gonna be like, okay, that now.
Okay.
Do what they're doing.
And then it's like this cycle and I'mjust like, just, I want it to stop.
Stop giving these people your, you knowwhat, I ain't getting in nobody's pockets.
If you gonna sell yourstuff, do your thing.
But it makes me mad.
Jay Ra.
Be mad.

Yeah, I, I think it's a combination of that.
I also do think some ofit is the labels as well,

Jay Ray (30:54):
Of

they, and, and I think for producers that are trying
to get on, I. They want the placement.
So, um, especially the ones thatare hungry and that they, they
just need that foot in the door.
It's, you know, it's, it's music business.
Unfortunately that's, that's thebusiness part, but I, I do think that
is one of the reasons why r and bmusic commercially is where it's at
now because of 20 years of that, whereespecially our pop artists went a whole

(31:20):
lot more r and b rooted urban influence.
I don't like the word urban,but that's what they call us.
Um.
Once we got to the late nineties, 'causeI, I always tell people, they always
think I'm crazy, but when Britney Spearscame out, um, I thought she was black
because I didn't see the music video.

Jay Ray (31:34):
hit me baby one more time.
Was a whole

it came on the radio.
On this, the Italian stationwas called Disco Rio.
And like I said, we didn'thave access to music videos.
There was no MTV or nothing.
And so if you're thinking about whitegirls and pop pre 96, let's just say
about 90 to 96, the only main pop.
That was a woman that wasreally doing it was Madonna.

(31:58):
And even then she was at a slowdownat that point, temporarily, and she
gave us bedtime stories and erotica.
So she was kind of in a different realm.
But when you thought of white womenin music, you know, you, it is kind
of like a Leanne Rimes kind of sound.
There wasn't really this quote, I guesswhatever group Fergie was in that when
they tried so hard and it, it never grew

Sir Daniel (32:18):
Oh, wild, wild Orchid,

wild, wild or, and

Jay Ray (32:22):
That's called

Sir Daniel (32:22):
all these crazy runs.

Jay Ray (32:24):
right?

it.
Not to whack them, but no, these folkslike, okay, y'all, y'all got a lot.
But when it came to white girls,there was no association with like
super funky swagged out music.
Not since probably Tina Marie,and she was always more r and
b rooted and was never really

Jay Ray (32:37):
She was doing black music, period.

she passed white people didn't know who she was.
So.
Um, so when Baby One More Timecame on, I was like, when is this?
And so I remember gettingBack to America and

Jay Ray (32:49):
And you saw her

was out.
Yeah, sometimes was out.
And I'm like, I thinkthis is that one girl.
But remember the now music compilations,

Jay Ray (32:55):
Uhhuh.
Now that's

when I got to America it was now two and Baby one more
Time was in the now Too commercial.
And that's when I first saw her andI saw this white girl with pictures.
I was like, what is going on here?
Like.
Because, and then I was in denialand I remember seeing her album cover
and you know, she has the tan, so I

Jay Ray (33:11):
Yes.

She could be like a a, a Mariah kind of,

Jay Ray (33:16):
big store.

I was trying so hard for her to be black.

Jay Ray (33:22):
You

I was like, I know she, she gotta, there's no way.
She's what I think she is.
Right.
Um, and so, yeah, butI say all that to say.
You know, when even when you talkabout those pop acts, look at how much
more r and b rooted they became, um,in the later years, like Backstreet
Boys started getting used songs likethe Call with the Neptunes remix.
Christina went dirty and she had thesong with Lil Kim and, uh, NSY had

(33:46):
gone and which was on 1 0 6 and parkall day and, and, and girlfriend.
And then that question becomes,well, where did the R and BX go?
Because now the labels are like, well.
We could, you know, push Tamia, butwe got Christina that can do this.

Sir Daniel (34:00):
So you were absolutely right.
Um, I, listen, I think Calvin islike, um, Calvin is definitely
part of the Queue Points.

Jay Ray (34:11):
Yes,

Sir Daniel (34:12):
Key points, um, family.
There's a fa there's a hugeresemblance here in what we've
been discovering and talking abouton our, our, um, show as well.
And just, I don't know, I think theconversation then, or it's not even a
conversation for us, but for the generalpublic hearing in the United States, but.
As people who live in this country, whoare, who are black men, who are music,

(34:37):
who consume music, you know, we justhave these questions and I'm grateful to
have somebody with another perspective tocome by and kind of like, well, this is
what, and kind of teach us what happens.
So I appreciate you, Calvin, forjoining us on this episode and
kind of enlightening us as to whathappens because again, in all of our

(34:58):
discussions and all of our discovery.
Capitalism is really what's at work here.
You have artistry and you havecapitalism, and therein the
two shall meet or not meet.
You know, artistry and capitalismtends to win out over everything.
Cash rules, everything.
Around us, basically around.

(35:18):
And so before we wrap up, Calvin, doyou have any final words or please let
our audience know about your channeland how they can find you so that
they can be in tune for your nextdeep dive conversations around the
early two thousands as you alluded to.

Jay Ray (35:36):
Yeah.
And also real quick, Calvin too,you have, you got, you released two
records recently, so, uh, beforetomorrow and after yesterday.
Definitely let our folks know about yourmusic too, where they can tune into you.

Yeah, look.
After that I spent 30 minuteswhacking all these artists.
Now I gotta promote my stuff.
Yeah, check me out y'all.
They about this big old hater on here.
But, um, I was also gonna say too, toyour point with the capitalism, that
was the one part I forgot to add inwith K-Pop is that a lot of the acts
that we see commercially, they'vebeen in these almost k-pop bootcamps
since they were young teenagers whereit, it is pretty much for years.

(36:12):
They, they go away and theygo into these extensive dance
courses, these extensive singing.
Trainings and everything else like that.
Uh, I only made that face 'causeby the time I hear them, everything
is going through so much EQ andnever, you don't know what their

Jay Ray (36:29):
You don't know

but um, yeah, there's no distinction.
But yeah, they, they spend

Sir Daniel (36:33):
too.

These crazy contracts, they don't really make a lot of money.
It's making everybody else money.
And so, um, yeah, they, they do allthat and it's, it's centered, again,
around the conversation of brandingand commercialism, making you the
most perfect polished act that canbe presented globally when it's
time for you to make your arrival.
So there's that.
But um, yeah, as far as, um.

(36:55):
I forgot where I was going with this.
Oh, my stuff.
Yeah.
You can check out mywebsite, Calvin michaels.com.
That has everything, everything from mymusic to my podcast, YouTube channel.
I have a book club.
Um, whatever's happening with myfilm projects, uh, as far as my
music, uh, I released my thirdand my fourth album a few months
back, which again, before tomorrow.
After yesterday.
It was supposed to be one album,but I realized the songs weren't

(37:17):
complimenting, and now I was like,these belong on two separate projects.

Jay Ray (37:20):
Yeah, because one is like the slow, like more of the the love
slow jam, and one is the uptempo.
Yeah,

Other one and yeah, you wanna go spin in your head.
That's the other one.
So, uh, yeah.
And yeah, all my stuff is self-producedand, you know, I sit right in my
living room, pissed off my neighborscranking all night, all night, all day.
They got, you gotta hear, you make a fewattempts for certain notes that you're
trying to see if you still have or not.
Um, and so yeah, all of that's there.
Um, I also, my end goal is more soto make music for other artists.

(37:47):
I like.
Making my own, but I really would liketo start pushing in that direction and
getting placements with other artists.
So that's kind of my bailiwick.
And so yeah, the albums are out.
I also have two other albums,symphonic Euphoria and the Hardcover.
Um, one's from 2017.
One's from 2019.
I took like a five year breakbefore I came back out musically.
So, um, yeah, so just check it outif you're into it, if you're not.

(38:07):
Okay.

Jay Ray (38:08):
Mm-hmm.
Well, there's so many entrypoints and thank you so much.
Once again, I want to echo everything.
Uh, sir Daniel said like, you'redefinitely one of those folks.
True multihyphenate, right?
Like there are so many entry pointswhere folks can just grab you If they
want the commentary, which y'all shouldcheck out, definitely go check out.
Calvin's YouTube channel, you get a lot.
So you get the music, butyou also get the commentary.

(38:30):
But then there's all these other things.
Like I said, I had the opportunityto listen to the podcast.
So you get like the storytelling,the comedy, um, there's of course
the music, all of these pieces.
So you give the folks, there's a way.
For folks to engage with.
Calvin Michaels the brand, and you seethis knowledge that Calvin is dropping.
So just thank you so much for

Yeah, thanks for having me.

Jay Ray (38:52):
You're very, very welcome.
And so for all of you that aretuning in, thank you all so much
for tuning into this episode.
If you can see our faces and hear ourvoices subscribe wherever you are.
Make sure that you go over toCalvin Michaels and subscribe
to Calvin Michaels as well.
You can visit the Queue Pointswebsite@Queue Points.com or you can
see the archive of all of our episodes.
Uh, you can also visit our, uh,magazine Queue Points mag where you

(39:15):
can check out some additional content,um, that supplements some of the shows
or, uh, compliment some of the shows.
So definitely check that outand definitely shop our store
too@store.Queue Points.com.
We appreciate y'all, we love y'all.

Sir Daniel (39:29):
Absolutely another one.
Jay Ray, what do I always sayat the end of every episode in
this life, you have a choice.
You can either pick up the needleor you can let the record play.
I'm DJ Serani.

Jay Ray (39:40):
My name is Jay Ray, y'all.
That's Calvin Michaels

Sir Daniel (39:43):
And this has been Queue Points podcast, dropping
the needle on black music history.
We'll see you on the next go round.
Peace.

Jay Ray (39:51):
Peace y'all.

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Calvin Michaels on K-Pop, Culture, & Capitalism

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